#clojure – 2014-05-01

2014-05-01

00:08	amalloy	i remember lein-xml. that was a good plugin
00:13	livingston	amalloy: what did it do? (I've never seriously use lein)
00:13	amalloy	livingston: it was an april fool's joke
00:14	amalloy	it did some kind of conversion between project.clj and pom.xml
00:14	livingston	ah
00:14	amalloy	i think it let you specify project.clj in an xml format that looked like pom.xml
00:15	livingston	I kinda get why people hate the xml, but it's really not that bad once you've used it even a little.
00:15	amalloy	s/xml/parens is the more usual thing to hear in here
00:15	livingston	if I had to tinker with it daily it would probably drive me nuts, but honestly you mostly just forget about it. maybe come drop in a resource from time to time.
00:17	livingston	I mean yeah the sexperssions are easier and you don't have to know what tag to use to close etc. blah blah but half the time in a big config file like that you end up notating ;end foo section anyway
00:19	amalloy	i've never written ;end foo to denote a sexpr section in my life
00:19	amalloy	maybe when i'd been using clojure for a week
00:19	livingston	oh no not in code
00:20	amalloy	anyway, i don't know how i wound up involved in a "you defending xml from me" conversation, since i never said anything bad about xml
00:20	livingston	I meant in some big ungodly configuration file or something where the blocking may not be so obvious or scroll off the screen. in code that's definitely bad code.
00:20	livingston	lol
00:20	amalloy	right. i was saying i've never done that
00:20	amalloy	why would i have such an ungodly config file?
00:21	livingston	I don't know, if you shove everything I have in my most complex pom into a project file I bet it would get somewhat unruly? maybe not
00:22	amalloy	i'm sure it would
00:22	amalloy	but that's one reason people like leiningen. project.clj doesn't have to have all that mess that's in pom.xml
00:27	livingston	ok, time to go. thanks for talking everyone. goodnight.
00:32	yuri_niyazov	Hi guys. I have a question
00:32	yuri_niyazov	Consider this form: (doseq [:let [a 1] b '(1 2 3)] (println b))
00:32	yuri_niyazov	versus this one: (for [:let [a 1] b '(1 2 3)] (println b))
00:33	yuri_niyazov	The first one compiles and runs fine. The second one breaks.
00:33	yuri_niyazov	Is that known and expected behavior, or is it a bug?
00:33	Frozenlock	second one is lazy
00:33	yuri_niyazov	No, the second one is invalid.
00:34	danoyoung	IllegalStateException Can't pop empty vector clojure.lang.PersistentVector.pop (PersistentVector.java:380)
00:35	Frozenlock	Yeah that too, what's up with this syntax?
00:35	yuri_niyazov	:let, :when and :while are modifiers that you can put inside doseq and for
00:35	yuri_niyazov	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for
00:36	Frozenlock	I know that, but they're usually used after the binding
00:36	Frozenlock	like this (for [b '(1 2 3) :let [a 1]] (println b))
00:36	yuri_niyazov	Yea, I am aware of that too.
00:37	yuri_niyazov	However, it is certainly usual that the first item in that form is a binding for a seq rather than a modifier
00:37	yuri_niyazov	but it is not, strictly speaking, incorrect.
00:37	yuri_niyazov	Because it is supported in doseq
00:37	Frozenlock	Ehh I don't know about that. My repl is chocking when I try your form.
00:37	yuri_niyazov	for doseq?
00:37	Frozenlock	no, for `for'
00:37	yuri_niyazov	yes
00:37	yuri_niyazov	That's exactly my point
00:37	yuri_niyazov	It chokes for me to
00:37	yuri_niyazov	too
00:38	yuri_niyazov	But it doesn't choke on doseq
00:38	Frozenlock	Ok, so your point is that this form should work for `for' too?
00:38	Frozenlock	Perhaps... fill a bug on Jira :-p
00:38	yuri_niyazov	Happy to do that. Was just wondering if this is known
00:39	Frozenlock	It's frankly the first time ever I see someone writing those this way
00:40	yuri_niyazov	it's shorthand for (let [a 1] (for [b '(1 2 3] ...))
00:40	Frozenlock	And it's probably because if you use `let' in a loop, it's to use something from the binding, like this (doseq [b '(1 2 3) :let [a b]] (println a))
00:40	yuri_niyazov	it obviates the need for one level of nesting
00:40	Frozenlock	Sure, I'm aware of that. But you're writing it in reverse :-p
00:41	Frozenlock	,(doseq [b '(1 2 3) :let [a b]] (println a))
00:41	clojurebot	1\n2\n3\n
00:41	Frozenlock	,(doseq [:let [a b] b '(1 2 3)] (println a))
00:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: b in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
00:41	yuri_niyazov	the :let form isn't required to use something from a binding
00:42	yuri_niyazov	it can be an arbitrary function call to anywhere else
00:42	Frozenlock	Correct.
00:43	beamso	moving the :let after b '(1 2 3) worked for me.
00:43	Frozenlock	beamso: Yeah, that's how it's usually used.
00:44	beamso	i couldn't remember seeing it before
00:44	Frozenlock	:let ?
00:44	yuri_niyazov	Correct. Except that the :let after b '(1 2 3) rebinds it on every execution of the loop
00:44	yuri_niyazov	so, if [:let a (expensive-fn-call)] then that's wasteful.
00:45	yuri_niyazov	I understand that I can move it out of the for form, which is what I am doing at the moment
00:46	beamso	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for mentions that it's illegal for for to start with :let
00:46	Frozenlock	beamso: What's surprising is that it isn't for `doseq'
00:46	Frozenlock	amalloy: need an expert here.
00:48	amalloy	i've never understood why it doesn't work with 'for. some implementation detail, i imagined, since i don't see a technical reason it couldn't
01:45	muhuk	Is there a function in core, that assigns test's (non-nil) result in a while? while-let like when-let.
01:47	muhuk	I don't have a collection to start with, just a function. Would the idiomatic way be (repeatedly f) ?
01:54	dbasch	muhuk: it sounds like you could do it with a regular loop. What does your function do?
01:56	TravisD	Ah, are there any tricks for dealing with laziness and dynamic bindings?
01:57	muhuk	dbasch: pops something from a queue-like object, returns nil if it's empty. I need to repeatedly call this function each time and process all items. It is an input queue.
01:59	dbasch	(loop [something (pop queue)]
01:59	dbasch	(when something (do whatever (recur (pop queue))))
02:00	TravisD	Does anyone have a common workaround for this type of problem?
02:00	TravisD	,(def ^:dynamic x 0) (binding [x 1] (lazy-seq [x]))
02:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
02:01	TravisD	er
02:01	muhuk	dbasch: thanks, I was hoping to avoid that. But I couldn't come up with anything better either.
02:01	muhuk	I was hoping the seq returned by (repeatedly f) to terminate when f returns nil.
02:03	TravisD	but yeah, realizing a lazy-seq created inside a binding form outside of the binding form will not reflect the bindings. Do laziness and dynamic binding just not play well together?
02:04	muhuk	TravisD: there should be another way to do XXX without combining binding/lazy-seq. If we knew XXX...
02:04	dbasch	muhuk: you could do (take-while (complement nil?) (repeatedly f))
02:04	muhuk	dbasch: neat. But I'll go with your 1st suggestion. There's & body.
02:05	TravisD	muhuk: It is true that I'm working on another problem, but I asked the question because I am curious
02:06	muhuk	TravisD: it's cool. I just don't think there's a way out there.
02:08	TravisD	that's unfortunate :(
02:18	TravisD	looks like you can use bound-fn to reinstall the bindings present when some function was called
02:34	`tlm	What would be a good name for a higher order function like this?
02:35	`tlm	(fn [f coll] (if (< (count coll) 2) [] (map f coll (rest coll))))
02:35	`tlm	(It returns a collection of results from calling f on every two adjacent elements of coll.)
02:35	amalloy	`tim: that's just (map f coll (rest coll)). there's no need for the if clause
02:36	amalloy	also, (< (count coll) 2) is really bad: consider how it works when given an infinite sequence. instead, you want (not (next coll))
02:37	`tlm	amalloy: Ah, so the idiom is short enough there's no need for a function...
02:37	`tlm	Good point!
02:38	amalloy	`tim: i'd also often do it differently, depending on what f is: (for [[a b] (partition 2 1 coll)] (...use a and b...)) is more my style, unless there's a ready-made f
02:40	`tlm	Do you happen to know what this would be called in other Lisps, where (cdr '()) throws an error?
02:41	amalloy	are there a lot of such lisps? most of them return '() afaik
02:42	`tlm	Maybe it's just Scheme.
03:06	cpetzold	Does anyone know of any public web api’s that return edn?
03:15	Raynes	cpetzold: Refheap's API.
03:15	cpetzold	Raynes: oh cool, thanks!
03:16	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/innuendo Is a client to that API that uses edn
03:18	cpetzold	hmm, application/clojure
03:20	cpetzold	Raynes: so if I’m reading this right.. https://www.refheap.com/api/paste/83935?return=clojure should return me a paste in edn?
03:21	cpetzold	oh, looks like they changed it to application/edn
03:21	cpetzold	https://www.refheap.com/api/paste/83935?return=edn works
03:22	amalloy	heh. "they"
03:22	Raynes	amalloy: Shhhhhhh stealth
03:22	amalloy	cpetzold: for context, refheap is Raynes's thing. he's secretly trying to gain more users
03:23	cpetzold	:D
03:23	cpetzold	i see
03:23	cpetzold	Well you need to update innuendo then ;)
03:24	cpetzold	By the way, here’s what your api looks like using the really stealthy project I’m working on: https://cloudup.com/c7pOt5pXmWE
03:24	TEttinger	I use refheap to generate copious amounts of fake words https://www.refheap.com/16011
03:25	amalloy	is your project google chrome, cpetzold?
03:25	amalloy	(i kid, i kid. a chrome extension to pretty-print edn is pretty sweet)
03:25	cpetzold	:P
03:26	amalloy	those are surprisingly pronounceable, TEttinger
03:27	amalloy	though i confess i'd stumble over rhourtauspotron
03:27	TEttinger	the fake star wars names https://www.refheap.com/83943 are even harder to tell from the real ones
03:29	TEttinger	I had help on the first one, which is meant to be fake ancient greek
03:29	amalloy	TEttinger: tbh it sounded like a mix between greek and cthulu
03:29	amalloy	more like greek names for chemicals than people, though
03:29	TEttinger	considering cthonic is the adjective for earth gods in greek haha
03:30	gko	Any user of cider ? It seems to make Emacs hanging (high CPU load, only solution is to kill Emacs) from time to time on Windows...
03:31	TEttinger	err chthonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic
03:32	dbasch	some of those words are real
03:33	TEttinger	dbasch, that was the hope yes
03:34	dbasch	anyway, neat
03:34	TEttinger	thanks, it's a great use for a one-liner
03:43	jack_rabbit	Hey, there. Is it appropriate to ask questions about Korma, the clojure sql library, here?
03:43	Frozenlock	sure
03:44	jack_rabbit	I've got a question regarding relationships between entities. I have a 'user' entity which "has-many" 'posts', but when I (select users (with posts)), I get "IllegalArgumentException No value supplied for key"
03:47	jack_rabbit	It seems when I have an odd number of users, the query doesn't work. The returned structure is a map, but each key is a 'user' and its value is also a 'user'.
03:47	jack_rabbit	Seems like it should be a list rather than a map, but I'm not sure quite what I'm doing wrong.
03:52	dimsuz	hello! I do this: (map :a [{:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 1} {:a 2}]) => (1 2 1 2), is there a quick way to make returned seq uniq? i.e. (1 2)
03:52	dimsuz	i mean maybe give some clever function to map rather than :a
03:52	dimsuz	i smell 'set' here, but dunno where to put it...
03:53	dbasch	,(distinct (map :a [{:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 1} {:a 2}]) )
03:53	clojurebot	(1 2)
03:53	dimsuz	oh, ok, so I'll have to apply a function to the result. just thought maybe i can get away with just 'map' :)
03:54	Raynes	You could reduce into a set.
03:54	dimsuz	i also know i can do into #{}
03:54	dimsuz	I see, thanks!
03:55	Raynes	(reduce #(conj % (:a %2)) #{} [{:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 1} {:a 2}])
03:56	Raynes	But you don't really lose anything by doing into after a map.
03:56	Raynes	Map is lazy.
03:56	dimsuz	or shorter: (into #{} (map :a [{:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 1} {:a 2}]))
03:56	Raynes	What I was just saying, yes.
03:57	dimsuz	ok :) i just thought maybe there's some syntactic sugar I didn't know about, decided to ask :)
03:57	dbasch	but into is not lazy, distinct is
03:57	dimsuz	oh, right.
03:58	Raynes	Which is extremely unlikely to matter in this case.
03:58	Raynes	Depending on how representative the input set is :P
03:58	dbasch	sure, but “be lazy when possible” is good practice, especially when you don’t lose clarity :)
03:59	Raynes	Sets exist for a reason.
03:59	Raynes	If you're faking set behavior, you often should just use a set.
03:59	amalloy	stop the presses! new headline: "Laziness doesn't matter", says Raynes
03:59	Raynes	:p
03:59	Raynes	Anyways, it really just depends on the greater goal.
04:00	Raynes	But OP mentioned sets specifically.
04:00	Raynes	So I was kinda latching on to sets.
04:00	dimsuz	usecase is i receive some data from DB and need to distinctify it. but now that you said it I see that I can ask DB to do that for me instead
04:01	Raynes	What database? :o
04:01	dbasch	select distinct :P
04:01	Raynes	I don't know of many dbs that don't do that for you if you ask nicely enough.
04:12	dimsuz	playing with nedb (nosql-like for nodejs) - toying with some clojurescript based project in node-webkit env :)
04:12	dimsuz	i didn't check but i guess it must've something like select distinct :)
04:17	deobalds	Hey folks. Did anyone else experience breakage with cider/cider-nrepl in the past month or so? I just upgraded prelude and cider, and now M-. tells me "Can't find nREPL middleware providing op info. Please, install cider-nrepl and restart cider."
04:17	deobalds	The hints for setting up cider-nrepl aren't very helpful, since they're all lein-focused. We don't use lein to run our app or connect to it with a repl.
04:20	dimsuz	guys and having [1 2 3 4 5], what is the best way to create smth like [{:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 3}]. I would do this: (map #(assoc :a %) [1 2 3])
04:20	dimsuz	is this a right way? :)
04:25	jack_rabbit	Well, seeing as I can't seem to navigate this korma thing, and the documentation is terribly minimal, and it doesn't work in an intuitive way, does anyone have a suggestion for a SQL library for clojure?
04:25	beamso	i use clojure/java.jdbc
04:26	deobalds	jack_rabbit: We're using java.jdbc directly as well. Though one of our teams tried honey on top of that and liked it.
04:27	jack_rabbit	I saw honey. I might give that a shot. I'd like some sort of abstraction on top of the sql. The idea of writing queries in string form isn't appealing.
04:28	beamso	you don't have to write all your queries in string form using clojure/java.jdbc
04:29	ucb	dimsuz: try a combination of interleave and constantly
04:29	ucb	,(doc constantly)
04:29	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x."
04:29	ucb	sorry, repeat
04:29	ucb	,(doc repeat)
04:29	clojurebot	"([x] [n x]); Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs."
04:29	ucb	,(doc interleave)
04:29	clojurebot	"([] [c1] [c1 c2] [c1 c2 & colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
04:30	ucb	,(interleave [1 2 3] (repeat :a))
04:30	clojurebot	(1 :a 2 :a 3 ...)
04:30	ucb	then add partition
04:30	ucb	,(doc partition)
04:30	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items."
04:30	ucb	and take it from there dimsuz
04:30	jack_rabbit	beamso, yeah, I'm looking through the API now.
04:33	dbasch	,(take 5 (map hash-map (repeat :a) (range)))
04:33	clojurebot	({:a 0} {:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 3} {:a 4})
04:34	dbasch	,(map hash-map (repeat :a) (range 1 5))
04:34	clojurebot	({:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 3} {:a 4})
04:46	deobalds	So, is anyone here using cider-0.7.0 and cider-nrepl-0.7.0-SNAPSHOT?
04:50	ucb	deobalds: I am
04:50	deobalds	ucb: No issues? Do you ever use it without lein?
04:50	ucb	deobalds: without lein? I usually cider-jack-in (I assume that uses lein behind the scenes)
04:50	ucb	deobalds: so far no issues
04:51	deobalds	ucb: It does. We always connect cider to a running repl inside an exernal process on our projects, so lein isn't involved. Makes it hard to use stuff that assumes lein will always be there. :(
04:52	ucb	deobalds: I see! I've used it to connect to long running processes without much fuzz, though not that much to be fair
04:52	deobalds	ucb: Good to know, thanks. Maybe we've got something else misconfigured.
04:52	CookedGryphon	deobalds: I'm working on a pull request that will let you customise the command for cider-jack-in completely
04:52	CookedGryphon	also per project
04:53	CookedGryphon	but afaik not much assumes lein will be there, if you just use plain cider to connect and not jack in
04:53	deobalds	CookedGryphon: Not sure what you mean? 0.6.0 works perfectly for us; we just use `cider` rather than `cider-jack-in`.
04:54	deobalds	CookedGryphon: Cider 0.7.0 works. It can't find cider-nrepl (or some part of it) when I try to do things like navigate the code using M-.
04:54	deobalds	CookedGryphon: All the cider-nrepl intallation instructions involve plugins in lein profiles.clj, dev-dependencies, or some other leiningen malarkey.
04:56	supersym	could someone please enlighten me how I implement this interface exactly, I can't seem to get it right
04:56	supersym	https://github.com/asciidoctor/asciidoctorj/blob/master/src/main/java/org/asciidoctor/Asciidoctor.java
04:56	deobalds	CookedGryphon: Just getting cider-nrepl 0.7.0 on the classpath doesn't seem to be enough for cider to find it.
05:04	CookedGryphon	fair enough, I'm not sure then
05:04	dimsuz	ucb: thanks!
05:07	supersym	ah... import-static from contrib ... that might be it ;_)
05:20	CookedGryphon	Can anyone tell me why clojurescript has its own separate :source-paths? I've got a project with different profiles for each different platform on which it builds
05:20	CookedGryphon	and clojurescript sticks out a bit as it's got a custom :builds thing with a separate :source-paths which can't inherit from the common one
05:24	muhuk	Promises are not like agents in the sense that they are only delivered on transaction success, right?
05:26	muhuk	So, I should use agent & await to leak values outside of transactions.
05:31	muhuk	await blocks :/
05:32	muhuk	I got it to work with the (promise), but if the transaction fails, it will still be delivered.
05:33	muhuk	The code is like this BTW: (swap! a (fn [...] (deliver p ...) ...) (do-something @p)
05:37	muhuk	Another solution is to throw another atom at the problem: http://stackoverflow.com/a/22414839/42188
06:01	CookedGryphon	is cljx hard wired to only deal with cljs and clj, or can you define other output targets?
06:01	CookedGryphon	for example jvm6/jvm7 versions
06:01	CookedGryphon	or jvm vs android implementations
06:04	ssideris	CookedGryphon: as far as I can tell, it will do other targets too
06:24	grimmulfr	Been learning Clojure for a few days. Made this with that knowledge: https://www.refheap.com/84169 (I tried using everything just to see how stuff works, we have JQuery, DOM manipulation, strings, custom functions, the works). ANy thoughts, suggestions and critique? :D
06:25	devurandom	Hello!
06:26	devurandom	I need help in translating a JavaScript program to ClojureScript (the code is at https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ac60b1f22c7de9aec355 if that helps you understand):
06:27	devurandom	In JS, I created a 2d array of nested maps. The inner maps carry references to the outer maps, to ease traversal. I also need a way to update these maps.
06:27	devurandom	How do I do this best in Clojure(Script)?
06:29	devurandom	I.e. how do I easily keep references to the outer map in the inner map, in a way that works with immutability? And how would you recommend to update or add keys to the maps, without rebuilding everything?
06:30	muhuk	devurandom: if I understand you correctly, I don't think you can easily build your references as such.
06:30	CookedGryphon	devurandom: What's the basic problem? Better to start from that and think how to explain it in clojure rather than thinking about how to do your javascript implementation in clojure
06:31	CookedGryphon	because the javascript implementation was based on assumptions that might not be true any more, you might not need these back references for the clojure implementation for example
06:33	muhuk	devurandom: even if you re-write your code in clojurescript, you'll still be using whatever Kinetic.Layer() returns, so no immutability there.
06:34	devurandom	I need to represent a 2d grid. Each cell can contain data and stuff that is necessary for drawing it (I used KineticJS, which iirc uses HTML5 Canvas, before). I need to draw certain parts differently, based on the values of the cell's data. I also need onmouseover callbacks and such, to implement the UI - so onclick or onmouseover I need to find the correct cell and change it, update other parts of the program, etc.
06:36	muhuk	devurandom: if you want to store your data in an immutable container, I'd start by removing edge.parcel
06:36	devurandom	muhuk: Yeah, the drawing is not immutable, I know. My problem was that in Clojure everything is immutable, so I cannot do this.street = true anymore, as I did before. It seems like the whole way of dealing with the data (traversing, having functions that take objects that are not an atom, ...) is different now.
06:36	muhuk	devurandom: and then, I'd use a different index for quick edge->parcel lookups
06:36	devurandom	"different index"?
06:37	muhuk	devurandom: think of it as a reverse map
06:37	muhuk	devurandom: (def parcels [{:edges [...]} {:edges [...]}])
06:38	muhuk	devurandom: (def edge->parcel {:edge-id parcel-value ...})
06:38	muhuk	devurandom: does that make sense?
06:38	muhuk	devurandom: you can build the latter based on the former.
06:38	devurandom	You mean like storing the path "x -> y -> horiz/vert" and looking up the parcel that way?
06:39	devurandom	Or create a unique ID for each edge and parcel and then map only those?
06:39	muhuk	devurandom: in that case: (def edge->parcel {[x y :horizonal] p1 [x1 y1 :vertical] p2 ...})
06:40	l3dx	how would I "alias" a static java value? ie. KeyEvent.VK_LEFT without using contrib static-import ?
06:40	muhuk	devurandom: I'm just giving you some ideas, you know the requirements of your code better than me.
06:41	muhuk	l3dx: does (def x KeyEvent/VK_LEFT) work?
06:42	muhuk	devurandom: also, if you are storing your state in an atom, you'd probably want to store both parcels and the index in the same atom, so that they are in sync. And you probably want functions that modify this data structure to make changes in both places.
06:44	l3dx	muhuk: yes
06:44	l3dx	thanks
06:44	l3dx	I was trying to do it with :require :as
06:45	muhuk	l3dx: yw
06:47	devurandom	muhuk: Ok, so you would address the parcels/edges via their path in the datastructure (instead of storing references as in JS)?
06:48	muhuk	devurandom: yes.
06:49	muhuk	devurandom: reference in clojurescript means, AFAIK, a javascript object or an atom. The former, as you know, is mutable. Instead of dealing with many atoms, I'd start with a single top-level atom and see how far that takes me.
06:50	devurandom	And is there maybe a better datastructure than the 2d array, that I used in JS? I will need to find parcels based on their x/y location, and I will need to iterate everything to e.g. draw it. I choose the 2d array in JS, because it seemed like the most efficient way to do the x/y lookup.
06:50	muhuk	devurandom: tough question.
06:51	muhuk	devurandom: 1st answer that comes to my mind is a map with keys of [x y]
06:51	muhuk	devurandom: but it wouldn't come close to the raw js array
06:51	devurandom	If [x y] can be a key in a map - would that be an efficient way to store them? Instead of in a list/vector, in a map with [x y] indices?
06:51	devurandom	Haha, same idea. :)
06:51	hennry	hello can any body tell me where we define the properties file filename.properties in luminus web application
06:52	muhuk	devurandom: my suggestion is to try a map with composite keys ([x y) and a nested map
06:52	muhuk	devurandom: see how they perform
06:52	devurandom	Regarding the single top-level atom: And then you update the top-level atom using something like (swap! the-atom assoc-in [the path] ...)?
06:52	muhuk	devurandom: perhaps the fastest is a vector where you calculate the index as (+ x (* y w))
06:53	devurandom	muhuk: nested map is {0 {0 ... 1 ...} 1 {...}}?
06:53	muhuk	devurandom: yes, top level atom idea, I'm pretty confident you should start with that.
06:53	muhuk	devurandom: yes.
06:53	hennry	hello can any body tell me where we define the properties file filename.properties in luminus web application
06:53	devurandom	hennry: Your question came through the last time already :)
06:54	hennry	ok
06:55	devurandom	muhuk: Thanks!
06:55	muhuk	devurandom: yw
07:51	hennry	how to get a single value of map from load-file
07:52	TEttinger	hennry: ##(doc read-string)
07:52	lazybot	⇒ "([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
07:53	TEttinger	not sure about load-file
07:54	hennry	<TEttinger>i am getting the full map but i need a single value
07:55	TEttinger	do you know the key of that value?
07:55	hennry	yes
07:55	lvh	hennry: Can you get the full map and then extract the value?
07:55	TEttinger	,(get {"whatever-key" :value} "whatever-key")
07:55	clojurebot	:value
07:55	hennry	yes but not get succes
07:56	TEttinger	,(get {"whatever-key" :value} "whatever-key-not-this" :default-get)
07:56	clojurebot	:default-get
07:57	hennry	<lvh> yes but not success to extract single value
07:58	gfredericks	hennry: what goes wrong?
08:00	hennry	<gfredericks> i am extracting the single value of map from load-file but i get the whole map
08:01	hennry	is there any way to get single value
08:05	gfredericks	hennry: yes, TEttinger showed you how to do it above using the get function
08:06	hennry	thanks to all
08:24	hennry	is there way to reload the repl from the code
08:28	muhuk	hennry: you do mean reload the code from the repl?
08:38	cYmen	Is there a flag or something to make emacs indent 2 spaces after a line break instead of after the function name in a sexp?
08:41	justin_smith	cYmen: you would have to make a new mode to replace clojure-mode I think
08:41	hennry	<muhuk> no i want to reload the repl from the code my motive is to refresh the application frm the code
08:41	justin_smith	hennry: you can use :reload to force a dep reload, or :reload-all as args to require
08:42	hennry	it refresh my application
08:42	justin_smith	it will grab any changes in your clj files
08:43	justin_smith	(require '[my-app.core :as core :reload-all])
08:43	justin_smith	there are still some tricky things (like old definitions still being around even if they are deleted in the source) but it mostly works
08:51	cYmen	justin_smith: I find that odd because I see it in a lot of code examples.
08:51	phillord	@cYmen (setq lisp-indent-offset 2) ?
08:52	cYmen	phillord: as soon as I find out how to eval that :p
08:52	phillord	oh, sorry
08:52	cYmen	not your fault that I don't know how to use my editor ;)
08:52	phillord	Alt-Shift :
08:53	phillord	or M-x customize-variable
08:53	phillord	I've been meaning to look that up for ages, because I really don't like the default when I've been using core.logic
08:54	cYmen	phillord: sweet. works. :)
08:54	cYmen	thank you!
08:55	phillord	no worries, have fun
08:55	justin_smith	cYmen: TIL, thanks
08:56	justin_smith	also, there is M-x IELM to get an elisp repl
08:56	justin_smith	or control-j to evaluate the form before point in the scratch buffer
08:56	cYmen	cool
08:57	justin_smith	(or C-M-x to evaluate the enclosing form)
08:57	cYmen	I wish I had a clever system to write down all these tricks.
08:57	cYmen	I tend to not find them when I need them.
08:57	justin_smith	I discovered ielm and the scratch bindings when I was trying to debug a poorly thought out elisp package
08:58	justin_smith	my very-bad-code led to extensive knowledge of emacs' elisp facilities as I tried to fix it / debug it
09:01	phillord	cYmen --- Org-Mode:-)
09:05	gfredericks	(defmacro errly [& body] `(binding [out err] ~@body))
09:26	cYmen	phillord: I tried but I can't get the hang of it.
09:27	cYmen	I need a new job. All this windows and C++ is taking up space in my brain that I would rather allocate differently. :/
09:43	jkj	cYmen: evernote
09:45	justin_smith	cYmen: if you ignore every feature of org mode other than * subgroup subsubgroup * subsubsubgroup etc. and tab to expand / collapse, it is very easy to learn, and very useful for keeping track of things
09:48	AeroNotix	justin_smith: pretty much this^
09:48	AeroNotix	I've been using just those features for ~1.5 years
09:48	AeroNotix	good thing is that you can put .org files into a github gist and share them with co-workers, too
09:49	AeroNotix	github renders them in gists, but not in actual repos, though. Weirdly.
09:49	justin_smith	[[/home/justin/clojure/][clojure]] <- for extra credit, make an occasional clickable hyperlink to a directory or file
09:50	AeroNotix	justin_smith: nice :D
09:55	justin_smith	also, something I try to remember to use more often [[/home/justin/test-uber/src/test_uber/core.clj::defn -main][-main]]
09:56	justin_smith	that links to a text search for the first instance of the specified string
09:56	justin_smith	IOW it is a clickable link to a def
09:57	AeroNotix	justin_smith: insanity! I never knew that. :D
09:57	justin_smith	see that is what makes org mode look hard - so many nice features to be found
09:58	justin_smith	but we must remind ourselves, there is an easy to remember and very easily usable subset :)
09:58	AeroNotix	for sure
09:58	AeroNotix	as with all emacs features
09:58	justin_smith	right
09:59	justin_smith	it only looks hard because you want to know what all the buttons do :)
10:00	AeroNotix	yupp
10:09	gfredericks	has anybody written an org-mode parser for clojure yet?
10:13	AeroNotix	best off just writing an ELisp interpreter and running the code there!
10:13	AeroNotix	:)
10:15	justin_smith	gfredericks: I started to make a two way org subset / edn translator and got stuck
10:15	justin_smith	gfredericks: a parser and an exporter would be more humble and doable, and very useful
10:17	justin_smith	I think I got stuck on how maps should be represented in org
10:24	justin_smith	perhaps maps should be :PROPERTIES:
10:24	justin_smith	but that doesn't allow collections as keys
10:27	cYmen	quickest introduction to core.async?
10:33	BobSchack	cYmen David Nolen's blogs about it are a pretty good introduction
10:44	gfredericks	justin_smith: I like the idea of clojure code that persists collections of maps to org tables :)
11:18	stompyj	bbloom: SHOTS FIRED
11:18	bbloom	stompyj: ?
11:18	stompyj	bbloom: turbopape: if you have to ask, you probably don't have large traffic
11:18	stompyj	LOVE IT
11:18	stompyj	from yesterday
11:19	bbloom	stompyj: yup, well it's true
11:19	stompyj	no, I 1000% agree
11:19	AeroNotix	link plz
11:19	stompyj	Love how direct it was
11:25	gtrak	technomancy: I got Syne working this morning, but I didn't get a chance to try git-pushing and such. Are there any gotchas? Is the project that you specify in the form handled specially in some way?
11:29	gtrak	s/Syne/Syme
11:36	rolfb	when i call `lein repl` outside of any projects on my mac, it loads clojure 1.5.1 ... how do I make it load 1.6 by default?
11:36	gtrak	I just make extra projects to play in.
11:37	gtrak	might also want to try: https://github.com/rkneufeld/lein-try
11:40	rolfb	gtrak: thanks, what i'm mostly curious about is why it's choosing 1.5.1
11:41	rolfb	can I inspect where it's loading it from?
11:42	gtrak	I figured it'd be in the default profile, but it's not.
11:44	rolfb	gtrak: they haven't released another version of leiningen since it bumped clojure to 1.6.0
11:44	rolfb	that's why
11:44	rolfb	:/
11:44	gtrak	that's not 'why'..
11:45	gtrak	that's just some kind of correlation :-)
11:45	rolfb	gtrak: leiningen includes clojure
11:45	rolfb	they've updated it in their repositoriy
11:45	rolfb	but not pushed a new version
11:45	gtrak	lein creates two processes, one for leiningen itself, another for the repl. It has to set up the classpath somehow.
11:45	rolfb	gtrak; https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/a296ff8918a581c975f49127d7e37a3f0c510d22
11:46	gtrak	I'm guessing it defaults to adding that leiningen-standalone jar if there's no project, which contains the clojure version.
11:46	gtrak	I believe you.. I'm just saying I don't see the connection, and I'd like to :-)
11:46	gtrak	the literal, in the code, connection.
11:47	rolfb	gtrak, wdym? clojure is included in leiningen-core, current published version contains clojure 1.5.1
11:48	stompyj	new “web benchmarks test” came out today. (or recently). Is anyone optimizing the clojure code for speed, or in general, do we just not care (I don’t )
11:48	rolfb	gtrak: are you thinking about the exact point where it switched based on the current project.clj?
11:49	gtrak	yea
11:49	tbaldridge	dnolen_: does cljs.core.logic not include to-stream?
11:49	gtrak	rolfb: so, the repl task has 'no-project-needed' metadata on it, but it still takes a project argument. I'm guessing somewhere there's a default project map that gets merged in.
11:49	technomancy	rolfb: you can run from a git checkout of lein if you need 1.6 outside a project
11:50	rolfb	technomancy: my desire is to just open a terminal and type "lein repl" :-)
11:50	rolfb	silly, i know
11:50	gtrak	I once made a terrible mistake, that might be useful here. put a project.clj in your root home directory.. :-)
11:51	rolfb	technomancy: any reason a new version of leiningen hasn't been pushed?
11:51	rolfb	gtrak: well, that might just work :-)
11:51	technomancy	rolfb: it's not done yet https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues?milestone=15&state=open
11:51	gtrak	rolfb: I didn't know that's what I'd done, but lein repl scans up parents to find a project.clj. I was getting weird stuff on 'lein install'.
11:51	rolfb	technomancy: aha, thanks :-)
11:52	gtrak	everything works as normal if you're actually in a project dir.
11:53	technomancy	hyPiRion: did you mean to add the mktemp issue to the 2.4.0 milestone?
11:53	hyPiRion	technomancy: well, I could. It's not a hard fix
11:54	hyPiRion	just want to ensure I have a windows instance running so I can confirm that it works first
11:54	technomancy	no problem; just checking it was intentional
11:54	hyPiRion	well, it's not a big deal really -- people can use the .bat file instead
11:54	hyPiRion	(Or at least that's what I've understood)
11:55	technomancy	hyPiRion: any opinions about https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1512 ?
11:56	hyPiRion	technomancy: yeah, but I'm a bit busy now
11:56	technomancy	no worries
11:57	technomancy	rolfb: part of the reason this release has taken so long was that we were going to include https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1388, which is really hard to get right
11:57	technomancy	but I decided to drop that from the 2.4.0 release
11:57	hyPiRion	It's good, but I feel it breaks backwards compatibility. Not sure how big issue that is for people in general.
11:58	technomancy	hyPiRion: I feel like it's probably safe in the `lein deploy` case.
11:58	technomancy	if you're manually compiling some stuff and then relying on it being present on clojars without putting it in project.clj, you're doin' it wrong
11:59	rolfb	technomancy, i'm too new at clojure to understand that issue :-)
11:59	technomancy	but the general case of jar files is less clear-cut; people could be using the jar task for non-traditional workflows
12:02	hyPiRion	technomancy: yeah, if you have intermediate compilation steps, I would assume there might be some breakage
12:02	hyPiRion	not found any examples yet though.
12:03	technomancy	intermediate compilation steps that aren't declared in :prep-tasks, yeah
12:03	hyPiRion	yeah
12:05	hyPiRion	I could see it being a problem for people with long compilation times
12:05	hyPiRion	(as there's no make-like functionality bundled with Lein)
12:06	technomancy	oh, like if there are tasks that you can't cheaply check if they need to be re-run before running?
12:06	technomancy	you can always memoize tasks, but that doesn't persist across invocations
12:07	technomancy	I feel pretty safe about making the change in deploy, because any weird deploy work flow is likely to apply to applications only and not libraries
12:08	hyPiRion	technomancy: I mean tasks where it's taking a long time to compile something, and the task isn't using date checks to check for updates in source files
12:09	hyPiRion	So they make a command to compile whatever
12:09	hyPiRion	I don't know if that's actually a problem though
12:24	llasram	Is there any way to nest test.check generation? Say generate a positive integer, then generate vectors in ranges around that integer
12:25	nullptr	yes, see gen/bind
12:25	llasram	Ah, awesome
12:25	llasram	Thanks
12:25	nullptr	something like (gen/bind gen/int #(gen/choose % (+ % 5)))
12:27	heiz	Hello! Tell me please if leiningen is able to use custom default template?
12:28	technomancy	heiz: custom default sounds like a contradiction of terms =)
12:29	justin_smith	heiz: you can define a template and use it via lein new foo
12:30	justin_smith	http://yogthos.net/blog/34-Creating+Leiningen+Templates
12:31	heiz	For example, I want lein to use compojure-app template by default. So I don't need to specify it every time. Is it possible?
12:32	technomancy	heiz: you can make an alias for ["new" "compojure-app"] if you like
12:32	technomancy	you can even call that alias "new"
12:37	gtrak	oh, man, I'm banging out 20 compojure apps a day :-)
12:39	gtrak	eclipse is what broke me, rather it broke itself too often, also archlinux (which I enjoyed otherwise)
12:40	llasram	Hmm. Property-based testing may not actually be the best way to test probabilistic data structures
12:40	bbloom	heiz: technomancy: isn't this what ~/.bash_aliases is for?
12:40	nullptr	llasram: that doesn't mean it isn't fun...
12:40	llasram	"Hey, look -- I found an example which exceeds the average expected error!" Well, yes
12:41	technomancy	bbloom: that works too. unfortunately I don't think you can have bash aliases over one word though.
12:41	bbloom	technomancy: the guy left, but the idea of changing what `lein new` does by default just seems insane to me
12:41	gtrak	thank goodness
12:42	gtrak	multi-word bash aliases, not the guy leaving.
12:42	technomancy	bbloom: eh; there is a good case for overriding built-ins
12:42	hyPiRion	llasram: Usually you'd do prop-based with confidence intervals
12:42	technomancy	like if you want `lein test` to actually run expectations or something
12:42	llasram	hyPiRion: What does that look like in test.check?
12:43	technomancy	gtrak: it's just pattern matching =)
12:44	gtrak	we'd get weird bash dsls.. ambiguous: $ r v m shoot myself
12:44	reiddraper	llasram: have you looked through the docs?
12:44	l1x	morning guys
12:44	gtrak	you just know people would use it that way.
12:44	gtrak	and make others use it
12:44	reiddraper	llasram: take a looks in the docs dir of test.check repo
12:45	technomancy	no one can make you use pattern matching against your will; it's a human rights violation
12:45	justin_smith	gtrak: I wonder if anyone has created a forth out of bash aliases treating their arg lists as stacks
12:45	hyPiRion	llasram: Instead of checking if a single data structure is broken, check multiple and test whether they are in the confidence interval or not
12:45	gtrak	justin_smith: so crazy it could possible work.
12:45	l1x	is there a better way of getting the difference between two lists than http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.data/diff ?
12:45	gtrak	possibly*
12:46	gtrak	justin_smith: I'm going to tweet that.
12:46	llasram	hyPiRion: By e.g. "manually" calling `gen/sample` w/in the property test to generate the set?
12:46	justin_smith	l1x: how much do you know about the lists? if they are two arbitrary lists diff is probably best, if you know more about their potential structure you can probably improve on it
12:47	l1x	it is just 2 simple flat lists with keywords like (:a :b :c) (:a :b)
12:47	llasram	hyPiRion: I literally started trying it out 10 minutes ago, so haven't really explored it yet and don't know what facilities are available
12:47	justin_smith	recently I discovered that clojure.data/diff combined with clojure.string/split makes tracking down what broke in unit tests that compare string equality much easier
12:47	l1x	nice :)
12:47	llasram	reiddraper, hyPiRion: but yes, did read the `docs/` files :-p
12:47	technomancy	justin_smith: you mean ... you aren't using lein difftest??
12:47	lazybot	technomancy: Definitely not.
12:48	justin_smith	l1x: then diff will probably help, but also consider whether it would help to sort them first, or compare them as sets...
12:48	justin_smith	technomancy: no, I haven't tried it
12:48	technomancy	it is, as they say, the cats
12:49	hyPiRion	llasram: Like, generate a vector (gen/vector) of at least x data structures, then check if the elements are within the confidence interval
12:49	l1x	justin_smith: you think that a set would improve that much if the maximum number of elements in the list is ~100
12:49	l1x	question mark
12:49	justin_smith	technomancy: very nice
12:49	llasram	hyPiRion: Oh. Duuuuuh. Thanks
12:49	justin_smith	l1x: well a set helps if you care about what is there, but not the order
12:49	justin_smith	(or how many times)
13:41	apricots	how does one get result set metadata using clojure.java.jdbc? i tried (jdbc/db-query-with-resultset db-spec ["select ..."] jdbc/metadata-result) but it just returns the data, not the metadata
13:43	justin_smith	apricots: that should return the function jdbc/metadata-result
13:43	justin_smith	oh, never mind
13:46	apricots	hmm looking at it more, it seems c.j.jdbc doesn’t actually let me get result set metadata
13:47	justin_smith	that sucks - is it a limitation of that driver, or of jdbc?
13:48	eraserhd	Does pomegranate have a way to query the latest version of a dependency? I'm not seeing one.
13:50	eraserhd	And, if not, should it?
13:52	technomancy	eraserhd: probably not; legitimate use cases are fairly rare.
13:54	joegallo	apricots: maybe i'm misunderstanding, but this is working just fine for me... (jdbc/db-query-with-resultset db-spec ["select * from foobar"] #(.getMetaData %)))
13:55	eraserhd	technomancy: I just realized that `lein new` does this... time to steal code?
13:56	technomancy	eraserhd: you can set the version to "RELEASE" but it's almost always the wrong thing
13:56	technomancy	but yeah, lein new is a special case because template creation isn't supposed to be repeatable
13:58	seangrove	bbloom: Working on calculating the height of a formatted block of text without rendering to the DOM to vertically center it in the layout manager - Anything jump out at that's naive in this approach? http://jsfiddle.net/QWQ4c/6/
13:58	apricots	joegallo: yeah calling the low level methods works. i suppose i was just looking for something more clojury
13:59	bbloom	seangrove: any plans to target IE8? :-P
13:59	seangrove	bbloom: Not immediately, no. Maybe in the future?
13:59	bbloom	seangrove: IE8 doesn't have canvas
14:00	seangrove	Well then, probably not, unless there's some other API for measuring text in IE8.
14:00	seangrove	As it is, there's no reliable way to get pixel height from text without rendering it :P
14:00	bbloom	seangrove: my first thought is: does canvas text size stuff respect system accessibility settings?
14:00	bbloom	seangrove: that's a fact about text heights in general
14:00	eraserhd	technomancy: This is for an internal lein template, and I want it to always use the latest version of our internal plugin.
14:00	bbloom	seangrove: fonts are programs
14:00	bbloom	seangrove: you can only tell what they do by evaluating them :-P
14:00	eraserhd	But I agree, it's usually not hte right thing to do.
14:01	technomancy	eraserhd: gotcha; makes sense
14:01	nullptr	seangrove: if you're in cljs goog.graphics has an abstraction across canvas, vml, svg
14:01	technomancy	you can probably try to load a "RELEASE" version and then see what it resolves to, but it's a bit tricky
14:02	nullptr	though the vml back end for getTextWidth just has a todo comment and returns 0... :P
14:02	bhauman	seangrove: you probably didn’t render it and measure in a div for reason.. I am wondering why?
14:02	bbloom	seangrove: i believe that spaces can vary in width
14:02	seangrove	bbloom: Even so, shouldn't have to put them into the DOM to get the height of a given font
14:02	bbloom	seangrove: oh yeah, having to put them in to the dom is a nightmare :-P
14:02	bhauman	and there it is
14:02	bbloom	seangrove: i'm also wondering why you didn't just use a div to measure, especially considering that will handle wrapping etc for you
14:02	seangrove	I'll add that approach in as well
14:04	seangrove	nullptr: I would guess it'd be way too slow for what I'm using it for, but good point
14:04	bbloom	i think that's a much better approach b/c you're never going to be able to get all the little edge cases right
14:04	bbloom	divs i mean
14:05	bbloom	you'll want to handle line spacing, system font size scaling, text justification, hyphenation, etc etc etc
14:05	bbloom	ellipses for truncation, etc
14:05	bbloom	text is fucking hard.
14:06	seangrove	Definitely agree that it's hard. The thing that kills me is that browsers have done all this work, but don't expose it at all, not even in their usually insane ways.
14:06	bbloom	unless you plan on implementing a full on true/open type renderer, i'd 100% delegate to the browser
14:06	justin_smith	you could translate TeX to javascript via empscripten and just use that :P
14:06	bbloom	justin_smith: sounds like a solid plan. seangrove go with that lol :-)
14:06	justin_smith	maybe that would be less trouble than the alternatives, lol
14:06	seangrove	I think I have a perfect place for it right here in this tight loop
14:07	eraserhd	technomancy: I'm assuming the resolve here isn't necessary anymore, now that new is in leiningen? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/new.clj#L22
14:07	seangrove	justin_smith: Working on a layout system, so have to be very wary of the costs involved
14:07	justin_smith	fair enough, I figured it was a silly suggestion
14:08	bbloom	seangrove: i've used off screen divs for measuring before and perf was "good enough"
14:08	bbloom	give it a try, see how it compares
14:08	technomancy	eraserhd: oh yeah, that probably dates from when lein-new was a plugin that needed 1.x compatibility
14:08	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, adding it now
14:08	bbloom	seangrove: won't be as good as canvas measure string, but will support rich text w/ proper typogrophy
14:15	dnolen_	tbaldridge: hmm it probably doesn't actually, wouldn't be hard to add
14:15	s2013	is clojure similar to scala in terms of being on jvm
14:17	tbaldridge	dnolen_: I tried copying over to-stream from the CLJ version, but Choice seems to be different in CLJS
14:17	noonian	in the sense that they both interoperate with java, yes, but the languages have very different philosophies. Clojure only really supports functional programming whereas you can write javaish oo code in scala.
14:18	s2013	do you need to know java to use clojure?
14:18	ToxicFrog	s2013: no, although it will help if you find yourself needing to interact with plain Java APIs (e.g. for sockets)
14:18	justin_smith	s2013: definitely not, though being able to read javadoc well enough to use something via interop is helpful
14:18	s2013	gotcha. stupid question but do you need to compile clojure code?
14:19	nullptr	scala is a terrific choice if you like swordfighting ... http://xkcd.com/303/
14:19	s2013	only bits of java i remember is from college 10 years ago
14:19	justin_smith	s2013: clojure is a compiler, all code is compiled into jvm bytecode by clojure
14:19	s2013	oh ok
14:19	s2013	my current work is mostly ruby and rails and some python. but ive been wanting to learn something else on the side
14:20	justin_smith	s2013: well, if you haven't done functional programming there is a lot to learn, and a lot to gain, with clojure
14:20	noonian	i'd recommend clojure over scala if you are just trying to learn something new that will expand your horizons
14:20	technomancy	s2013: you don't need to sit around and wait for code to compile, if that's what you mean
14:20	technomancy	you type code in, it compiles, then runs
14:21	s2013	yeah im not thinking about scala
14:21	technomancy	but it usually happens instantaneously once your repl has started
14:21	s2013	i got a book on Go but have been hearing good things about clojure
14:21	s2013	i wonder if i can jus tlearn both side by side
14:21	bbloom	s2013: learn one language at a time
14:21	bhauman	s2013: they are extremely different
14:21	noonian	if you are new to functional programming, clojure will probably be a lot to learn on it's own
14:21	s2013	yeah i havent done much functional programming
14:21	noonian	the syntax will also be very different if you haven't used a lisp before
14:22	s2013	would js be considered be close to some functional programming?
14:22	tbaldridge	s2013: the way Go does polymorphism is similar to Clojure, but Clojure does it 100x better, imo.
14:22	s2013	cause js isnt true oo
14:22	bbloom	s2013: "functional" js is a joke
14:22	s2013	i mean i gues sthats my closest exposure to fp
14:23	s2013	not saying that its much of an exposure
14:23	bbloom	s2013: i suggest you start with www.4clojure.com & try some puzzles... it's fun
14:23	eraserhd	technomancy: I was going to submit that pull request, but I can't seem to run tests. Keep getting "Unable to resolve var: force? in this context.
14:23	noonian	js has functional features but if you get into it knowing only imperative programming it is unlikely you are using it functionally :P
14:23	s2013	thanks bbloom
14:23	s2013	let me check it out
14:23	eraserhd	But the line number reported doesn't make sense.
14:23	bbloom	s2013: be sure to follow some top users, so you can see their alternative solutions after you solve some
14:24	s2013	stupid question but what is clojure commonly used for
14:24	cbp	programming
14:24	bbloom	cbp: lol
14:24	s2013	thanks cbp
14:24	nullptr	web applications
14:24	TimMc	I use it as an egg replacer.
14:24	nullptr	too heavy for embedded/mobile at present
14:24	nullptr	offline/server/web app
14:25	s2013	gotcha nullptr
14:25	s2013	can you write system apps with it?
14:25	bbloom	s2013: depends on what you define "system" to mean
14:25	s2013	like low level stuff
14:25	llasram	s2013: Hadoop MapReduce jobs
14:25	bbloom	s2013: there are at least a few databases & serious high perf stuff written w/ clojure
14:25	s2013	gotcha. thats cool
14:25	bbloom	s2013: anything the java can do, clojure can do
14:25	s2013	can you run it on windows/
14:26	joegallo	you can
14:26	tbaldridge	s2013: datomic is written in Clojure
14:27	s2013	cool. well im on ubuntu anyways, but just wondering
14:27	s2013	how long did take you guys before you felt comfortable writing some basic apps inc lojure?
14:28	bbloom	s2013: if you're just looking to learn, don't fret so much: just get started
14:28	joegallo	about 1 basic apps
14:28	tbaldridge	1 year for me, but that was 4 years ago when the documentation was quite a bit more sparse
14:28	s2013	1 year? damn
14:28	technomancy	s2013: depends on how many bad imperative habits you have to overcome
14:28	joegallo	that is, struggle through the first basic app, and hey presto, you'll probably have learned a whole lot
14:28	s2013	im loking at some basic tutorials.. the syntax looks a bit weird
14:28	bhauman	hey guys I wrote a live coding leinigne plugin for CLJS and I’m looking for some feedback, kinda been in a cave writing it
14:28	tbaldridge	s2013: that being said, I haven't really touched Python or C since, so it was a great investment for me
14:28	s2013	but if i could overcome obj-c syntax im sure i can overcome anything
14:30	nullptr	a month or so of active effort for me (but spread out over much longer), though i had experience with lisp and fp (ocaml/f#) going in
14:30	s2013	gotcha
14:30	justin_smith	s2013: lisp style languages are a whole other world, I think one of the main revelations is there is a relative absence of syntax, and that is why all the parens are there
14:30	nullptr	keep in mind that clojure is still relatively early and things change quickly, so your level of comfort will decrease rapidly without continued investment
14:30	seangrove	bbloom: Maybe I should expose both strategies - one for when 'simple text layout' and one for full-fledged text flow http://jsfiddle.net/QWQ4c/7/
14:30	technomancy	nullptr: wait, clojure changes quickly??
14:30	justin_smith	s2013: the hard part is really getting how little syntax there is, and how consistent it is (mostly)
14:30	lazybot	technomancy: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
14:30	bbloom	seangrove: lol... you ready for an MSDN link?
14:31	seangrove	bbloom: I may have beat you to this one ;)
14:31	seangrove	But yes, please
14:31	s2013	do you need to know Lisp or no?
14:31	justin_smith	s2013: no, I am just saying it is in the lisp family
14:31	s2013	gotcha
14:31	bbloom	seangrove: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb613560.aspx
14:31	justin_smith	which is why it looks so weird, the lisp family is like the australia of programming
14:31	justin_smith	parallel evolution
14:32	s2013	ok so i think ill set aside an hour or two a day for clojure. im hoping by this sumemr i can write some basic apps
14:32	s2013	are there any orms for clojure?
14:32	s2013	i write mostly web apps
14:32	tbaldridge	s2013: you don't need ORMs with clojure ;-)
14:32	technomancy	justin_smith: the madagascar of programming
14:33	justin_smith	technomancy: even better :)
14:33	seangrove	bbloom: Nope, I came across a different one. Reading through this now, thanks
14:33	tbaldridge	ORMs are an abomination created because of the limitations of OOP
14:33	s2013	i see
14:33	s2013	so you write pure sql queires?
14:33	bbloom	seangrove: in short, there are two types of text-rendering components... one for simple text runs and one for rich text / flow documents
14:33	justin_smith	technomancy: or the new zealand, all things replaced by s/birds/functions
14:34	tbaldridge	there are many ways to go about it, there are LINQ like dsls for clojure, or write SQL, or use Datomic
14:34	s2013	ok thanks
14:34	s2013	i guess ill cross that bridge when i get there
14:34	justin_smith	we do map storage / retrieval with edn for caribou
14:35	nullptr	s2013: it's probably good to absorb a bit of the clojure philosophy before diving in, gives helpful context to understand "the clojure way"
14:35	justin_smith	(since clojure is more about maps than objects and all)
14:35	nullptr	rich hickey's "simple / easy" talk will shed some light -- and i believe it touches on orm specifically
14:35	tbaldridge	s2013: have you seen any of Rich Hickey's talks?
14:35	nullptr	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
14:35	seangrove	bbloom: Ok, this is heartening. Seems like we can start with these strategies, and make them more configurable as we need.
14:35	tbaldridge	also this list is probably a great way to start learning about Clojure http://thechangelog.com/rich-hickeys-greatest-hits/
14:36	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, just be careful not to use names that will confuse the fuck out of you later & make a compatability nightmare ;-)
14:36	tbaldridge	seangrove: bbloom: I recently started trying to do some layout stuff in SVG, that was insanely painful.
14:36	tbaldridge	seangrove: bbloom: like the fact that SVG text only returns the width of text when you measure
14:36	bbloom	tbaldridge: seems like seangrove is having success w/ some prototype code i sent him recently
14:36	bbloom	tbaldridge: but text is the hardest part
14:37	tbaldridge	bbloom: probably true, my skills with most web UI stuff is sub-par
14:37	seangrove	Yeah, I'm going to add this in, and I'll post a screenshot of properly laid-out app
14:38	Foxboron	Anyone picked up "Clojure for Machine Learning"? Thoughts?
14:39	seangrove	Well, this is pre-text layout anyway http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/412963/Screenshots/e0.png scroll view with a fixed-height table view with rows of absolutley-positioned canvas layout for the relative time component and the text-view component
14:39	seangrove	Working towards the right-hand, left is what we have so far
14:40	seangrove	Then we talked with the designer and he said that the text is actually variable-height even though it's not shown in the screenshot, so had to implement proper text-block sizing
14:54	BobSchack	Anyone here use / play around with fressian? I'm porting fressian to clojurescript (https://github.com/devn/longshi) and would like any comments on the api design. I'm currently going to model the api after data.fressian.
14:56	tbaldridge	BobSchack: yeah, I've used it a fair amount
14:56	tbaldridge	BobSchack: lol, it's you devn?
14:56	tbaldridge	oh I see multiple people in this repo
14:56	BobSchack	No I'm working with devn
14:59	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Tell Stuart to keep the Clojure version in sync with the Java dependency. It causes classpath woes when used in conjunction with Datomic :P
15:00	tbaldridge	BobSchack: so I started on a CLJS port of fressian once, and ran into a problem that perhaps you'll be able to solve better than I
15:01	BobSchack	what problem?
15:01	tbaldridge	namely, decoding UTF-8 strings in JS from a byte array.
15:02	BobSchack	oh I already have the string encoding / decoding portion done (at least in JS) I haven't tested it with java encoded fressian
15:02	BobSchack	any codepoints that caused problems?
15:03	tbaldridge	ah, I see that code now
15:06	blake__	Is there any documentation on how to build a new Clojure system? Like, if I wanted to target a new VM, a la ClojureScript or clojure-py?
15:09	BobSchack	tbaldridge I've smoke tested encoding / decoding of the base types (integer, strings, byte array, etc) and I'm working on the extension point / caching system.
15:09	akhudek	blake__: there is no such thing that I’m aware of. I’ve heard it’s best to start with clojurescript as a base though. The much desired clojure-in-clojure would make this much easeir, but it’s yet to appear.
15:09	tbaldridge	blake__: tools.analyzer is always a good starting place for this sort of thing
15:10	tbaldridge	BobSchack: nice! then you're further than I ever was.
15:10	blake__	tbaldridge: Tx. I seem to keep coming back to that. Guess I better figger it out. =P
15:10	tbaldridge	blake__: shameless plug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhRQmT22SSg
15:11	blake__	tbaldridge: Ha! Shameless plugs are the best kind! I'll watch!
15:11	Frozenlock	tbaldridge: Nooooo, my productivity!
15:11	seangrove	tbaldridge: You and your shameless, helpful plugs
15:12	BobSchack	Getting InterleavedIndexHopMap to work an decent speed was a fun challenge. I'd especially like to know how people are using in to do perf tuing once I get everything working
15:17	tbaldridge	blake__: code from that talk https://github.com/halgari/data-all-the-asts/blob/master/src/data_all_the_asts_talk/core.clj
15:17	amalloy	i think it's only shameless if you don't explicitly say so. loudly excusing it as shameless suggests you must feel some shame
15:22	blake__	Unless it's meant ironically.
15:22	dbasch	amalloy: “shameless plug” is just a template. Only a programmer will take that literally and not evaluate it :)
15:35	dbasch	btw, I’ve been thinking about a generic way to do user management. Here’s a super basic idea for an api, thoughts? https://www.refheap.com/84419
15:38	bhauman	dbasch: the anonymous user case? or are you not going to have that?
15:39	bhauman	dbasch: that case seems to creep into every web product
15:39	dbasch	bhauman: not for now, although this wouldn’t preclude you from allowing users to create bogus accounts
15:40	bbloom	dbasch: there's basically no such thing as a "generic way to do user management"
15:40	bbloom	the list of possible features is hilariously large
15:40	dbasch	bbloom: I know, but you can provide a template to aid with a couple of basic things
15:40	dbasch	1) never use a plaintext password
15:40	dbasch	2) enforce a minimum password length
15:40	dbasch	3) have a sane key derivation function
15:41	dbasch	I think that alone would help many people
15:41	dbasch	it’s really easy to make horrible mistakes in 10 lines of code to authenticate users
15:42	bhauman	it’s easy to make horrible mistakes in 100 lines too
15:42	bhauman	:)
15:42	bhauman	dbasch: you are getting at correct core functionality, I like it
15:42	dbasch	of course, the point being most people start with the most basic authentication features and make mistakes
15:43	amalloy	huh, i got a different error message than i was expecting from ##(count [] [])
15:43	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$count
15:43	amalloy	errrrr. in my repl i get "Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/count--inliner"
15:43	llasram	huh
15:44	llasram	I get what you get. Clojure 1.6?
15:44	llasram	&clojure-version
15:44	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
15:44	llasram	Oh, lazybot
15:44	llasram	You so old
15:44	bbloom	dbasch: i don't see how this is any better than a one page readme on how to properly hash/store passwords
15:44	bbloom	dbasch: in fact, this is already wrong, since it doesn't do any salting
15:45	bbloom	there's no substitute for understanding security
15:45	dbasch	bbloom: it does salting
15:45	bbloom	dbasch: where?
15:45	dbasch	bbloom: crypto-password
15:45	dbasch	I’m trying to bridge crypto-password and friend somewhat
15:46	dbasch	bbloom: the idea is that a readme is one step less than a template for most people who just want to build an app
15:47	dbasch	bbloom: if there’s a default that you can stick in your project, that’s easy to find than a readme on the web (of which there are probably thousands, and many of them outdated/wrong)
15:50	bbloom	dbasch: so the salt is stored as part of the hashed password result string?
15:50	bbloom	odd. but ok
15:50	dbasch	bbloom: yes, it’s a standard
15:51	dbasch	bbloom: I have my own implementation where I store salt in a db column, but I prefer to use crypto-password because it’s already out there
15:53	dbasch	bbloom: btw, I asked Colin Percival about that library and he said it seemed ok
15:53	bbloom	dbasch: sure, i'm just saying i've never worked on a web app that didn't out grow a simple auth API basically overnight
15:54	dbasch	bbloom: yeah, me either. But I always wanted a starting point. It happened to me very recently in fact.
15:54	dbasch	I started working on cointipping.com and realized I had to reinvent passwords from scratch
15:55	dbasch	it’s really easy to forget basic things like enforcing minimum password lengths
15:55	coventry	dbasch: Do you want to store a salt as well, and use it in generating the hash?
15:55	bbloom	coventry: we just discussed this :-P
15:55	dbasch	coventry: ScryptUtil does that
15:56	bbloom	coventry: apparently the libraries he calls in to stores the hash in the returned string value
15:56	bbloom	stores the salt* with the hash, i mean
15:57	dbasch	crypto-password looks pretty solid. I hardcoded scrypt because I see no reason to make that optional, but it could be if someone really cares
15:57	dbasch	although I would assume that if someone is at that level, they don’t need this
15:57	bbloom	dbasch: yeah, no reason to expose multiple crypto algorithms. just pick the most secure one available
15:58	dbasch	I think for 99.99% of apps the three choices in crypto-password are just fine
15:59	dbasch	if you are building a clojure app that must withstand a concerted attack by a government, this is not for you :)
16:00	dbasch	also, it’s easy to bikeshed about password algorithms and forget many other mundane aspects of user management
16:00	bhauman	dbasch: shouldn’t we really default to forcing people to install pgp
16:00	dbasch	bhauman: that would be nice, but who’s we? :P
16:00	bhauman	the programming elite :)
16:01	dbasch	for example, one of the things I want to do is swallow the password, and make sure it’s not being passed around in the user’s app
16:01	dbasch	if I could zero-out the in-memory password after hashing it, I would
16:02	dbasch	also, I want to remove reasons for people to print plaintext passwords in debug logs
16:02	bbloom	dbasch: blows my mind how often i encounter that
16:03	dbasch	bbloom: right. If you don’t need to debug your password implementation, it’s less likely that you’ll log passwords
16:03	dbasch	of course, nothing stops your from logging every request
16:03	bbloom	dbasch: it's particularly funny in rails apps where there's a way to filter request params, yet ppl decide to use something like password2 instead of confirm_password or whatever the OFFICIAL second field is
16:03	bbloom	so sure enough, logs are full of plain text passwords
16:03	bbloom	:-/
16:03	dbasch	bbloom: also, confirm_password should never really make it to the server. In 2014, that’s a UX matter.
16:04	bbloom	dbasch: if you're not writing any client side code, it's perfectly reasonable to send that to the server
16:04	bbloom	whether or not the absence of client side validation is acceptable in 2014 is another matter
16:04	dbasch	bbloom: it’s reasonable, but it’s preferable to avoid it
16:05	dbasch	it’s one more opportunity for an error to be logged somewhere, containing a password
16:06	bbloom	dbasch: that's the least of our worries really. it's not all that uncommon for passwords to be sent via http in the clear anyway
16:07	dbasch	bbloom: not much we can do about that, other than fight to make ssl mandatory
16:07	bbloom	i'd suggest that browsers should just start stripping out password fields from form posts, but that won't work as soon as somebody does some wacky AJAX nonsense w/ some jquery plugin
16:07	bbloom	end-to-end encrypted network traffic should be the fucking law
16:07	dbasch	bbloom: preaching to the choir :P
16:10	{blake}	Or maybe it should all be totally open and obviously hackable. Might teach people to be more circumspect online. =P
16:10	dbasch	bbloom: one of my worries is the very common scenario where someone accesses a server, steals logs and password dbs
16:11	dbasch	it happens to pretty much every company at some point
16:11	dbasch	and it’s hard to protect against, especially as a company grows and more people have server access
16:11	dbasch	at the very least we should help people make sure that information is un-bruteforceable
16:12	dbasch	because we won’t stop people from reusing passwords across sites
16:12	noonian	the nsa will still get theirs
16:13	bbloom	passwords won't get fixed until auth is a proper browser feature that has a compelling dev story
16:13	dbasch	{blake}: it’s even worse now that people have cryptocurrency on their machines
16:13	{blake}	noonian: My point!
16:13	{blake}	dbasch: "Why do you rob banks--er, computers?" "'cause that's where the money is!"
16:13	dbasch	yeah, I wouldn’t even try to protect against the NSA
16:14	dbasch	meaning, the threat model presented by the NSA goes way beyond anything that can be done in software
16:15	dbasch	for all we know, the NSA owns every keystroke on every network-connected computer on the planet, and many unplugged ones
16:15	noonian	i think thats a reasonable assumption to go with
16:15	{blake}	Going back to my "Well, if it can't be protected, we should at least be honest about it" theory. Heh.
16:16	dbasch	{blake}: protected is not an absolute. You can protect against some things and not others
16:16	{blake}	dbasch: Yeah, I know. I just think there's been more than a little dishonesty about what's being protected from whom.
16:17	dbasch	{blake}: I could so go on a rant, starting by the invention of the phrase “identity theft” :P
16:17	dbasch	but we’re probably getting offtopic
16:17	{blake}	dbasch: Moving on...
16:18	dbasch	I see many people coming into clojure and the first thing they do is a compojure/ring app
16:19	{blake}	<--Is doing that. (Not first thing but...top 10.)
16:19	dbasch	and it’s true that the state of security in Clojure can improve, even if it’s not as bad as abedra’s talk made it sound
16:25	coventry	Yeah, if you're worried about concerted attack by a government, you're pretty much lost unless you are one. :-)
16:25	bbloom	(doc assoc) ; because of the lack of the 1 arg arity....
16:26	clojurebot	"([map key val] [map key val & kvs]); assoc[iate]. When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s). When applied to a vector, returns a new vector that contains val at index. Note - index must be <= (count vector)."
16:26	bbloom	what's the best way to take & kwargs and assoc them in to an existing map?
16:27	fowlslegs	I'm trying to use this https://github.com/kephale/clj-random/blob/master/src/clj_random/core.clj library's #'lrand-bytes to produce vectors of integers with 8-bit binary representations. However when I try (map #(Integer/toBinaryString %) (vec (lrand-bytes 8))) strings with more than 8 bits are produced.
16:29	fowlslegs	I need a fast way to psuedorandomly generate and manipulate binary data, but am having trouble finding the right tools to use.
16:31	AimHere	slurp and /dev/null!
16:31	TimMc	/dev/random you mean
16:31	AimHere	yes
16:31	stompyj	how is intellij clojure support?
16:32	stompyj	semi-bummed in what happened with lighttable
16:32	dbasch	fowlslegs: why not (byte (- 127 (rand-int 256))))
16:32	dbasch	and repeat as needed
16:32	akhudek	stompyj: not bad, get the cursive clojure plugin
16:32	stompyj	still early I guess, but i hope they don’t abandon it in favor of aurora.
16:32	dbasch	concatenate into byte array, etc
16:32	cbp	I've heard good things about cursive
16:33	cbp	but never tried it
16:33	dbasch	TimMc: /dev/random is for when you need secure random bits, but it may be slow for some apps
16:33	stompyj	akhudek: I’d need the paid version of intellij to try that right?
16:33	dbasch	TimMc: and if you’re going to use it, do it through SecureRandom
16:33	akhudek	stompyj: noope
16:34	fowlslegs	I think I came up with a solution.
16:34	akhudek	stompyj: community version works fine
16:34	stompyj	akhudek: thansk!
16:34	{blake}	Wait, what happened with LightTable?
16:35	stompyj	{blake}: I looks like he’s ramping down dev on lighttable and ramping up dev on that aurora thing
16:35	stompyj	Right now LT isn’t a better general IDE then ST3 for my workflow, so I can’t switch yet
16:36	{blake}	stompyj: Huh. LT needs work. But Cursive is pretty solid as is CCW. (In my limited experience.) Also, emax.
16:36	fowlslegs	dbasch: Yeah that should work using a different rand. I also thought of an optimization for creating large random strings of random length. Will post details when I get it working.
16:36	akhudek	stompyj: I’ve expereinced issues with st3 and the repl
16:36	stompyj	{blake}: Yeah, I’m excited to try Cursive
16:36	dbasch	fowlslegs: cool
16:36	noonian	yeah, i like LT and hope development continues, but it's open source now so in theory the community could move it forward
16:36	stompyj	akhudek: 1000% agreed. I meant ST3 is my non-clojure IDE
16:37	stompyj	noonian: Yeah, it just feels like it needs a couple more releases to get it to the point where the community will want to push it over the edge
16:37	{blake}	I've been using LT when I don't want to deal with "projects" and "workspaces" and what-not.
16:37	stompyj	All that said, props to Chris, it’s amazing for what it is
16:38	akhudek	lighttable has always had too much magic in it when I’ve tried it. It’s great for the cases it’s explicitly programmed for, but very quicly falls flat in more complicated scenarios
16:38	TimMc	stompyj: Source on LT statement?
16:39	stompyj	sure, one sec
16:40	noonian	i don't even use the in-line evaluation stuff really, i just like it as an editor that's as pretty or prettier than sublime text and the configuration files use edn and have a nice auto complete feature
16:40	noonian	i just keep a lein repl up next to it
16:40	stompyj	https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/light-table-discussion/A3pc87gGcHc
16:40	stompyj	I won’t quote bomb the channel, but scroll down to see his response
16:42	TimMc	thanks
16:43	noonian	nice, i hadn't seen the new lighttable.com site
16:44	noonian	sounds like he's focusing on aurora to try and make the company sustainable, and that he's not ditching LT, just trying to get the time to keep working on it
16:44	fowlslegs	,(Integer/toBinaryString -20)(Integer/toBinaryString 255)
16:44	clojurebot	"11111111111111111111111111101100"
16:44	fowlslegs	dbach: ^
16:45	fowlslegs	,(Integer/toBinaryString 255)
16:45	clojurebot	"11111111"
16:45	justin_smith	dbasch: what about storing the password as a byte-array instead of string - that prints opaquely and can be zeroed
16:45	justin_smith	dbasch: also the underlying crypto stuff expects byte arrays, it is the lib in front that will convert from string from what I have seen
16:46	dbasch	justin_smith: I’m not too worried about the password after it’s hashed, I’d like to zero-out the plaintext password that comes into the api but (being Clojure) I can’t :)
16:47	justin_smith	dbasch: you can get the request before the middleware expands the body, while it is still an input stream
16:47	justin_smith	as long as you give it back another input stream (with pw zeroed), you are fine
16:47	justin_smith	I did something similar with a request serializer lib
16:48	fowlslegs	The whole integer to binary string thing maxes out a bit before 2^32
16:48	fowlslegs	,(count (Integer/toBinaryString (dec (Math/pow 2 31))))
16:48	clojurebot	31
16:49	fowlslegs	I can still work with this because I can map bitwise operators across vectors of numbers with binary representations that are at maximum 1 byte.
16:50	fowlslegs	Bijective rotations left and right might be hard to do efficiently though.
16:50	dbasch	justin_smith: interesting idea. I’ll think about it.
16:50	fowlslegs	Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, let me know, otherwise I'll stop thinking aloud.
16:52	dbasch	fowlslegs: well, you can move on to Long :)
16:52	justin_smith	dbasch: the key is to make sure it sees the request before any other handler or middleware, of course
16:52	fowlslegs	dbasch: My knowledge of Java is very limited.
16:53	dbasch	justin_smith: although in the real world nginx or waht have you also has the password in memory
16:53	fowlslegs	dbasch: Not that I'm not willing to learn.
16:53	dbasch	justin_smith: it’s probably not that important anyway
16:53	justin_smith	fair enough
16:53	dbasch	fowlslegs: Long has the same api, only it’s 64 bits
16:54	dbasch	fowlslegs: how much random data do you need, and in what format?
16:57	fowlslegs	dbasch: This is a genetic programming experiment to evolve a compression function for use in a cryptographic hash.
16:57	fowlslegs	(defn gen-plaintext [distr-center] (-> (r/lrand-gaussian) Math/abs (* distr-center) round #(repeatedly (r/lrand-int 255))))
16:58	fowlslegs	This is what I'm using to create random binary strings. If I put in 100000 I get an email, 1000 a short txt file, etc..
16:59	dbasch	what is round?
16:59	dbasch	oh, never mind
17:00	dbasch	fowlslegs: any reason to use a gaussian?
17:01	dbasch	fowlslegs: and also, why do you need binary strings? Couldn’t you just generate random text?
17:03	fowlslegs	dbasch: For the error function I'm trying to analyze each compression functions performance measured in terms of a random sampling of its performance on higher orders of the strict avalanche criterion when implemented in a variation on the classical Merkle-Damgard.
17:03	fowlslegs	dbasch: I think my results will be best if I use varying length strings.
17:04	stompyj	noonian: understood, I didn’t mean to insinuate he was ditching LT, just that he was shifting priorities a bit
17:04	stompyj	which makes sense to me, I just hope LT is far enough along that people really want to dig in
17:05	fowlslegs	dbasch: I can say test it's adherence to GSAC for 3 small, 3 medium, and 3 long strings, with variation in all three categories.
17:05	noonian	stompyj: yeah, thanks for linking that discussion anyway, i'm now discovering a bunch of features that were added like the plugin manager
17:06	fowlslegs	dbasch: Does that make sense? Kind of going with the more variation and randomness, the better results I will get, at least in terms of what I throw at the compresssion functions (this is not the same for the function set, terminals, gen operators, etc.).
17:07	dbasch	fowlslegs: so you’re looking to generate strings with varying levels of entropy?
17:10	Jaood	is it common practice to use -main in applications?
17:13	amalloy	there's not really any other way to do it, Jaood?
17:13	justin_smith	amalloy: well you can name it something else I guess (or I seem to remember having done so)
17:14	amalloy	justin_smith: yes, you can in fact change the prefix
17:14	Jaood	amalloy: lein lets you use a different name
17:14	amalloy	from - to anything you want. but why bother?
17:14	fowlslegs	dbasch: Entropy as I understand it in the language of computer science is the randomness that comes from hardware timings and such. This may not meet the mathematical distribution of a cts uniform distr when we look at it in large quantities, but it is much less deterministic than a PRNG. It might be true that the values generated by our PRNG have greater entropy when they are shorter, but that is not what I'm trying to achieve. The Mersenn
17:14	fowlslegs	Did that cut off?
17:14	welder	yes
17:14	fowlslegs	Where?
17:14	stompyj	The Mersenn
17:15	fowlslegs	Mersenne-Twister algorithm is cryptographically secure, so I'm more looking for variation in length for testing purposes because perhaps the performance of certain compression functions in my population will be poor when given very short or long strings and it needs to be able to perform well on all strings.
17:16	Jaood	amalloy: but I meant that any function call can really just start your app
17:17	amalloy	i'm not aware of such an option. what is it?
17:17	amalloy	like, if i want to build an uberjar which, when run, first calls my.ns/foo instead of my.ns/-main, what do i do?
17:17	llasram	amalloy: Use `lein-otf` :-)
17:18	amalloy	$google lein otf
17:18	lazybot	[timmc/lein-otf · GitHub] https://github.com/timmc/lein-otf
17:18	amalloy	i see. plausible, i guess, but i wouldn't say that because some random plugin allows it it's a feature of lein
17:19	TimMc	It's not random, it's my wife!
17:19	Jaood	Calls the -main function in the namespace specified as :main in project.clj.
17:19	Jaood	You may use -- to escape the first argument in case it begins with `-' or `:'.
17:19	Jaood	If your main function is not called "-main", you may use a namespaced symbol
17:19	Jaood	like clojure.main/main.
17:19	amalloy	Jaood: right, i said uberjar. not lein run
17:19	llasram	Jaood: More generally -- although `lein run` and other tricks will let you invoke some arbitrary function, (a) the built-in `clojure.main` class wants to run a function named `-main` (b) the genclass tooling wants a function named `-main` (mod you can change the prefix if you want)
17:19	TimMc	Jaood: So, all lein-otf is doing is providing a -main and calling something else that you specify.
17:20	TimMc	Jaood: All Java processes start with a call to main.
17:20	Jaood	amalloy: right, I wasn't talking about jars, just a simple file, like a script
17:20	amalloy	something that you make the user run via lein is not much of an app
17:20	llasram	Additionally -- you could name all your Clojure source files with the extension `.funkyfuntimes` and get everything to work. But why?
17:21	Jaood	TimMc: goi it
17:21	Jaood	I should haved said script instead of app :P
17:24	Jaood	llasram: yeah, was just reading about genclass
17:25	fowlslegs	dbasch: Long ain't as long as you think.
17:26	fowlslegs	I mean it's probably #'Integer/toBinaryString
17:26	Jaood	do you guys have like a shell allas for 'java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main' then? for running scripts
17:26	fowlslegs	Won't work on anything with a minimal binary representation > 32 bits in length
17:26	Jaood	s/allas/alias/
17:26	llasram	Jaood: No scripts. Doesn't really work
17:27	noonian	is there anyway to reload code in a repl such that multimethod definitions are re-evaluated?
17:27	Jaood	llasram: why not?
17:27	turbofail	i don't have a general script for doing something like that, but i do have some scripts that specify namespaces to run
17:28	llasram	Jaood: I mean that in practice. You pay the whole JVM start-up time to get a process with no libraries. Just isn't worth it
17:28	llasram	noonian: You mean e.g. changing the dispatch function?
17:28	justin_smith	Jaood: that would only work with clojure.core + what comes with the jvm, I typically use other deps, which means needing to manage deps, which means lein to me
17:28	noonian	llasram: ah, yes
17:29	llasram	noonian: Yeah, for that you need to actually replace the multimethod instance, which will drop all of the implementations too
17:29	turbofail	oh yeah usually my scripts are dealing with some sort of uberjar with clojure in it, not the clojure jar alone
17:29	llasram	noonian: OTOH, that's almost always what I want, so I just use the pattern of having `(def my-mm nil)` right before the actual declaration
17:29	turbofail	and they're usually running a long process, as part of a cron job
17:30	justin_smith	turbofail: then I would do lein uberjar + java -jar usually
17:30	Jaood	justin_smith: llasram: well the jvm surely has lots of libraries for simple system tasks/scripts no? but I can see how the startup time can be an issue
17:30	noonian	llasram: just during development? or do you leave that in there and not worry about it?
17:30	llasram	noonian: The latter. Doesn't hurt anything :-)
17:30	noonian	llasram: thanks
17:31	llasram	I'll even claim that it more closely aligns multimethods with protocols, since re-compiling the namespace containing a protocol loses all existing registered protocol implementatinos
17:31	turbofail	justin_smith: `java -cp uber.jar clojure.main ...` gives more flexibility. i can pick a namespace to run, or specify a random file to run with those dependencies available, or whatever
17:31	turbofail	also having to AOT a main class is lame
17:31	justin_smith	turbofail: oh, interesting point
17:32	llasram	You can also add extra deps, which is useful for running under frameworks
17:32	technomancy	turbofail: as of the next version of lein if you dont specify an uberjar entry point, it assumes clojure.main
17:32	technomancy	so you can use java -jar
17:33	turbofail	ah
17:33	turbofail	that's handy
17:33	technomancy	I agree re: having to AOT just to get a main
17:38	l1x	hey clojure aces, I am trying to write a function that does multiple update-in -s for a single swap! call but i fail https://gist.github.com/l1x/1d29bc762a316461a849
17:38	l1x	it throws a null pointer exception on a key that does not exist yet
17:39	llasram	l1x: try s,inc,(fnil inc 0),
17:41	technomancy	fnil is great
17:41	technomancy	partly because, you know, f-ing nils.
17:41	llasram	hah
17:41	l1x	llasram: you right
17:41	l1x	thanks!
18:00	m1dnight	hey guys o/
18:01	noonian	yo
18:03	Glenjamin	hi guys, does anyone have any experience with pulsar - is there such thing as pmap for pulsar, does it make sense to use lightweight threads in this way?
18:05	rasmusto	~trampoline
18:05	clojurebot	trampoline is the clenched fist in the gauntlet of letfn
18:06	justin_smith	bhauman: very nice
18:06	bhauman	justin_smith: Thanks man
18:06	whodidthis	how do i use clojure.set/union on '(#{:a} #{:c} ...)
18:07	rasmusto	whodidthis: apply
18:07	whodidthis	sweet thanks
18:08	rasmusto	whodidthis: yeah, most of the set functions are multi-arity, so you can use apply on all of them
18:08	rasmusto	"difference" is the only one that might do something confusing, the rest should be straightforward :p
18:09	justin_smith	,(set/difference #{1 2 3 4 5} #{1 2 3} #{4}) kind of like multi arity -
18:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:09	justin_smith	,(clojure.set/difference #{1 2 3 4 5} #{1 2 3} #{4}) kind of like multi arity -
18:09	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
18:10	rasmusto	,(require 'clojure.set)
18:10	clojurebot	nil
18:10	justin_smith	,(clojure.set/difference #{1 2 3 4 5} #{1 2 3} #{4}) kind of like multi arity -
18:10	mmitchell	is it considered "ok" to have side effects in a watcher fn?
18:10	clojurebot	#{5}
18:10	justin_smith	thanks :)
18:11	mmitchell	i'd think that watchers would really be all about side effects anyway?
18:11	stompyj	bhauman: badass!
18:12	justin_smith	yeah, seeing the whole thing, it was very well done
18:12	coventry	mmitchell: om does.
18:12	justin_smith	(inc bhauman)
18:12	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:12	dbasch	bhauman: just watched it, awesome.
18:12	mmitchell	coventry: ok thanks, good to know
18:12	bhauman	justin_smith: stompyj: thank guys, BTW I just posted it to HN so … you can dec me for asking for votes
18:13	stompyj	I was just looking for it on HN :)
18:13	bhauman	on the new page
18:13	coventry	I find that when I re-evaluate clojurescript, the attached web page only updates accordingly maybe 50% of the time, and I haven't been able to figure out why.
18:14	mdeboard	Glenjamin, Is Pulsar still relevant since the advent of goroutines in Clojure?
18:14	mdeboard	(This is the first time I've read about pulsar)
18:15	Glenjamin	i think the thing i was actually looking for was reducers in my case
18:15	mdeboard	I agree with most of that blog post regardless
18:15	Glenjamin	but afaik pulsar provdes an api-compatible version of core.async
18:15	Glenjamin	so they must think it's useful
18:15	mdeboard	ahh
18:16	Glenjamin	as i understand it, quasar does it's own scheduling across a threadpool, rather than leaving it to the OS
18:16	Glenjamin	which has some benefits in some cases apparently
18:20	Glenjamin	bah, i wish i'd read this rich hickey reducers blogpost before starting this latest project
18:20	Glenjamin	i've got everything working with lazy seqs and recur
18:20	bbloom	Glenjamin: this talk is really good too: http://vimeo.com/45561411
18:20	amalloy	mmitchell: yeah, a watcher with no side effects does nothing at all
18:21	Glenjamin	i've been trying to optimise a large DB read via lazy-seqs
18:21	amalloy	i mean, arguably you should try to stay away from watchers, but if you do use one, it necessarily has side effects
18:21	mmitchell	amalloy: cool yep, thanks for the confirmation!
18:21	Glenjamin	and it turns out i was solving the wrong problem
18:21	bbloom	i've only found watchers useful for interop with externally stateful things during dev time
18:21	bbloom	like managing a "debug window" in swing or something
18:22	Glenjamin	i've got no explict paralleism in this code, and it still manages to use all my cores - sounds like reducers are the solution i wanted
18:22	amalloy	i used a watcher once at geni
18:22	amalloy	we had a background thread churning through a work queue as fast as it could, and some client would say "let me know when my task id #1234 is done"
18:22	Glenjamin	i wanted something in between a watcher and a validator the other day
18:23	amalloy	so there was an atom or something with the id of the last-processed job, and we'd set a watcher to notify the user when their thing was done
18:23	Glenjamin	i wanted to throw some data into an atom, but have it compute some derived values before swapping - but i guess that's just an agent
18:23	amalloy	that sounds like a function, Glenjamin
18:24	Glenjamin	well yeah, that what i have, but i wanted to ensure you couldn't put the wrong thing in the atom
18:24	Glenjamin	i suspect this is my OO reflex, which i need to beat down
18:26	justin_smith	Glenjamin: well, you didn't subclass hash-map with a version of conj that throws exceptions on certain inputs
18:26	Glenjamin	i did add a validator to my atom to check the keys
18:27	m1dnight	could anyone tell me, how I can create a key-value map (or what is the proper term?) from [[:a 1] [:b 2]]? I.e., to {:a 1 :b 2}
18:27	m1dnight	please :)
18:27	justin_smith	m1dnight: into
18:27	Glenjamin	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
18:27	m1dnight	oh
18:27	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
18:28	m1dnight	is that the same then, as #{} ?
18:28	m1dnight	I was reading about this in the docs
18:28	Glenjamin	#{} is a set
18:28	justin_smith	,(class #{})
18:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
18:28	m1dnight	oh :)
18:28	justin_smith	,(class {})
18:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
18:28	m1dnight	ohhh that's what I need
18:28	noonian	but you can also use with into heh
18:28	Glenjamin	justin_smith: is that something someone did?
18:28	rasmusto	,[#{1 2 3} {1 2, 3 5}]
18:28	clojurebot	[#{1 3 2} {1 2, 3 5}]
18:28	m1dnight	hey, thanks a lot!! :)
18:28	noonian	,(into #{} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
18:28	clojurebot	#{[:b 2] [:a 1]}
18:29	noonian	,(into #{} [1 2 3])
18:29	clojurebot	#{1 3 2}
18:29	justin_smith	Glenjamin: no, just going even more OO with it, saying you aren't that far off the saintly path yet
18:29	m1dnight	hmm, just saw it here :p seems not to be what I want
18:29	m1dnight	oh wait, yes it is
18:29	Glenjamin	heh
18:29	m1dnight	thanks
18:29	justin_smith	,(into #{} [1 2 3 2 1])
18:29	clojurebot	#{1 3 2}
18:30	m1dnight	,(into {} [[:a 1][:b 2]])
18:30	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
18:30	m1dnight	yes sir indeed :)
18:30	m1dnight	thanks guys
18:30	Glenjamin	i've got a map in an atom {:a a, :b b}, where (= (f a) b) always holds but is expensive to calculate on demand
18:30	Glenjamin	so i kinda wanted to encode that relation into the data structure
18:31	Glenjamin	but for now i'm just creating that data with a function and only updating the atom via those functions
18:31	justin_smith	Glenjamin: that sounds like a cache / memoization
18:31	Glenjamin	it is
18:31	coventry	(doc memoize)
18:31	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."
18:32	Glenjamin	sort of
18:32	amalloy	why not just put a delay of the result in? then you don't have to calculate it unless it's needed
18:32	justin_smith	Glenjamin: what about a map from input to a delay of that input's realization?
18:32	justin_smith	jynx
18:32	Glenjamin	i get update events, and get requests can receive the previous version
18:32	Glenjamin	requests are continuous, and should get the latest value as soon as it's ready
18:33	Glenjamin	currently doing something like: new info -> ~ 10 seconds of work -> update atom with latest data
18:33	justin_smith	would you want to prevent the situation where two threads are trying to realize the same result in parallel?
18:33	Glenjamin	yes
18:34	{blake}	I'm going through the "How Clojure babies are made" article, and when I get to the lein run part, I find that lein puts nothing in the classes directory! I can't find the classes anywhere on my disc (except for the ones I made the manual build). What am I missing?
18:34	Glenjamin	{blake}: possibly ~/.m2 ?
18:34	amalloy	it's probably just really old, {blake}, like from lein 1
18:34	Glenjamin	if i understand the question
18:34	Glenjamin	oh, i perhaps dont
18:34	{blake}	amalloy: Where'd they go? Does lein bundle the classes into...something else?
18:35	Glenjamin	justin_smith: calculating the result currently takes over all cores for some time, so doing more than one at once would be bad
18:35	rasmusto	Glenjamin, justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/20471 maybe useful?
18:35	amalloy	i don't know what that tutorial asks you to do, so i don't know what lein does in that case :P
18:35	justin_smith	Glenjamin: a delay will only be in progress of being forced once
18:35	{blake}	It's just a "lein run".
18:36	{blake}	It goes through the manual build process to illustrate what lein does for you automatically.
18:36	Glenjamin	justin_smith: but i'd only end up deref-ing it straight away, as i dont want to update the atom until the result is ready
18:36	Glenjamin	i'd rather serve the old value
18:36	{blake}	I guess it doesn't really matter for my purposes. Just curious.
18:37	justin_smith	Glenjamin: ahh, that sounds almost more like an agent than a delay, if we are talking about "old value" and "new value"
18:37	Glenjamin	yeah, i might re-work it like that when i'm done optimising the calculation
18:37	technomancy	{blake}: classes arent generated if you don't AOT
18:38	Glenjamin	at the mo i just have to not reset! the atom until i know i'm done
18:38	Glenjamin	it's a league table for an in-play game
18:38	Glenjamin	with ~1 million players
18:38	{blake}	technomancy: Oh! So it just ... what, compiles in-memory and then discards?
18:39	technomancy	{blake}: yep
18:39	technomancy	its clojure that does that btw, not lein
18:40	Glenjamin	hrm, actually an agent doesn't really make a difference here
18:41	{blake}	Ahhhh. So maybe if I want to update this I'd have to put the AOT in there or "lein compile"? Seems like the latter should work but I don't see the class files. I'll search...
18:41	Glenjamin	i think i'm happy that calculating derived fields is just calling the right function, rather than trying to set things up so no-one can call the wrong function
18:42	turbofail	{blake}: lein will only AOT compile namespaces that you explicitly tell it to
18:43	technomancy	`lein compile` means "compile the things in :aot" which is usually nothing
18:43	justin_smith	{blake}: lein check will compile every ns, as a side effect
18:43	justin_smith	also I advise runnint lein check frequently it helps catch problems
18:43	turbofail	anyway if you want to look at the compiler output no.disassemble is way more useful/fun
18:43	justin_smith	*running
18:45	turbofail	hm. looks like bytecode exploration's not really what that article's about. oh well.
18:47	coventry	What kinds of problems is lein check useful for catching?
18:48	technomancy	lein check complects reflection warnings with compilation failures
18:48	justin_smith	coventry: code that is infrequently run but statically invalid
18:48	coventry	I see. Thanks.
18:49	technomancy	you can also do `lein compile :all` to get the latter without the former
18:49	technomancy	but then you need to clean, which is annoying
18:49	justin_smith	technomancy: oh, cool - though I actually am glad to see reflection warnings on the whole project
18:50	dbasch	turbofail: have you seen this series of posts? http://blog.guillermowinkler.com/blog/2014/04/27/decompiling-clojure-iii/
18:50	technomancy	justin_smith: it's useful, it's just a weird way to expose it
18:51	turbofail	dbasch: yeah i read those
18:52	justin_smith	coventry: or a more concrete example, one of the top level namespaces in a lib has a bad function definition, lein check lets you find that within the lib repo, instead of finding it in an app that uses the lib
18:53	justin_smith	coventry: nothing that wouldn't be caught if you defined at least one test which required the ns, but it's still useful
18:57	rasmusto	oh god I made a nested thing
19:01	justin_smith	#onlyon#clojure
19:02	rasmusto	})})})})})})})})})})})})] in my repl
19:02	justin_smith	ahaha
19:03	justin_smith	that's some serious nesting
19:03	rasmusto	that's with :max-steps 4 :o
19:03	TimMc	Sell it as modern art.
19:04	rasmusto	~art
19:04	clojurebot	Pardon?
19:04	coventry	,(nth (iterate vector []) 1000)
19:04	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]
19:04	TimMc	clojurebot is artless
19:05	rasmusto	I'm doing something like this: (loop [fns (interleave (repeat fn1) (repeat fn2)) thing blah] (recur (drop 1 fns) ((first fns) blah)))
19:05	rasmusto	:p
19:05	rasmusto	er, (map (first fns) blah)
19:06	rasmusto	It's supposed to be a breadth-first traversal of sorts?
19:06	TimMc	coventry: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2014-03-25.html#18:04
19:06	justin_smith	,(nth (iterate (comp #(apply hash-map %) (juxt identity identity)) {}) 4)
19:06	clojurebot	{{{{{} {}} {{} {}}} {{{} {}} {{} {}}}} {{{{} {}} {{} {}}} {{{} {}} {{} {}}}}}
19:07	rasmusto	I was reading about ((.)$(.)) yesterday
19:07	justin_smith	,(nth (iterate #(hash-map % %) {}) 4) 'doh
19:07	clojurebot	{{{{{} {}} {{} {}}} {{{} {}} {{} {}}}} {{{{} {}} {{} {}}} {{{} {}} {{} {}}}}}
19:08	justin_smith	rasmusto: that's a funny place to keep your money
19:08	rasmusto	,(juxt identity identity identity)
19:08	clojurebot	#<core$juxt$fn__4213 clojure.core$juxt$fn__4213@1af86ae>
19:08	coventry	TimMc: You are a bad, bad man.
19:09	TimMc	:-D
19:09	TimMc	:-D :-D :-D
19:09	justin_smith	,(nth (iterate #(hash-map % %) {}) 20)
19:09	clojurebot	{{{{{{{{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}} {{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}}} {{{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}} {{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}}}} {{{{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}} {{{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}} {{{# #} {# #}} {{# #} {# #}}}}} {{{{{# #} {# #}...
19:10	TimMc	justin_smith: See my link to coventry for an infinite version.
19:10	justin_smith	looking at that now...
19:10	justin_smith	I remember that
19:19	{blake}	turbofail, justin_smith, technomancy: Thanks all!
19:20	{blake}	,(map inc (list turbofail justin_smith technomancy))
19:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: turbofail in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:20	{blake}	eh well
19:22	justin_smith	the inc bot command is not that smart
19:22	justin_smith	(inc juxt)
19:22	lazybot	⇒ 8
19:23	justin_smith	I could have sworn that was more popular
19:23	rasmusto	(inc juxtin_smith)
19:23	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:43	andrewchambers	Hi there
19:43	andrewchambers	is there a clojurescript irc too?
19:43	justin_smith	yeah, #clojurescript
19:43	andrewchambers	has anyone benchmarked clojurescript vs clojure
19:43	andrewchambers	btw
19:44	andrewchambers	Trying to decide which to use for a project
19:44	technomancy	server-side cljs?
19:44	andrewchambers	not a server really
19:44	justin_smith	I would be surprised if clojurescript beat jvm clojure on any benchmark, but I can't cite proof
19:44	andrewchambers	Im writing a C compiler with clojure
19:44	technomancy	any benchmark but startup time or memory usage, yeah
19:45	andrewchambers	the only benefit I can think of clojurescript is deploying to web for fun
19:45	andrewchambers	if its not faster
19:45	andrewchambers	the tooling for clojurescript also seems worse
19:45	technomancy	heh, that is a generous way to put it
19:46	andrewchambers	I just tried to benchmark my start of a tokenizer in both
19:46	justin_smith	technomancy: well for a fair comparison you would want uberjar with java -jar vs. clojurescript already compiled - unless we mean dev spin up time
19:46	andrewchambers	and i couldnt even get it to work on clojurescript
19:47	justin_smith	also the lib scenario with clojure is much more solid
19:47	justin_smith	*jvm clojure (since technically all the impls are clojures)
19:47	justin_smith	andrewchambers: there is also the too often neglected CLR port of clojure
19:48	andrewchambers	yeah, i dont care too much about that since im linux dev
19:48	justin_smith	andrewchambers: it works great under mono
19:48	andrewchambers	I think most of my code is purely algorithmic
19:48	andrewchambers	so i can swap between
19:48	andrewchambers	with a little bit of effort
19:50	andrewchambers	If anyone is interested, I'm trying to reimplement my own version of this guys C compiler https://github.com/rui314/8cc in clojure. To prove to myself a clojure implemention is superior
19:50	andrewchambers	and to kind of test, the differences and benefits
19:52	andrewchambers	might be an interesting benchmark at least
19:54	technomancy	writing code to prove one technology is superior doesn't always work out well
19:55	technomancy	why not write it in order to discover the strengths and weaknesses of a given language/runtime?
19:55	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/169
19:56	andrewchambers	I actually wrote a large part of a C compielr in python previously
19:56	andrewchambers	the immutability in clojure makes the way things are done slightly different
19:56	TimMc	technomancy: (Note: On stupidly large monitors, the "next post" arrow floats over the post's text.)
19:56	andrewchambers	like, im representing the input source as a lazy seq
19:57	andrewchambers	so implementing a recursive descent parser is a bit different
19:57	technomancy	TimMc: yeah... I should just get rid of those. I don't have the CSS chops to pull it off correctly =)
20:00	ppold	Hi guys, what is the current state of debugging in Clojure, using Emacs?
20:01	TimMc	technomancy: Another layer of indirection should do it.
20:01	technomancy	TimMc: go on?Z
20:08	TimMc	technomancy: If you enclose them in a div that is position:fixed and dropped 280 pts down the page, then float the arrows to the two ends of the div...
20:08	technomancy	TimMc: I'll give that a shot; thanks!
20:08	TimMc	But you may have to futz around with ems and pts for a bit.
20:09	technomancy	futzing is what css is all about
20:09	TimMc	technomancy: One downside: Selecting text between teh arrows may cause shenanigans.
20:10	technomancy	I'm sure it'd be better than what I have
20:46	andrewchambers	is a difference in behaviour in clojurescript and clojure a bug?
20:47	andrewchambers	if you do a (println my-lazy-seq) in clojure it pritns it as it evaluates it, if you do it in clojurescript it waits until the whole seq is generated before printing anything
20:47	justin_smith	is an insect a bug? sometimes
20:47	andrewchambers	to be more specific :)
20:49	justin_smith	I'm not sure. Maybe someone else knows.
20:49	hiredman	the jvm has streams you can print to incrementally
20:50	hiredman	js doesn't really
20:50	hiredman	the reallity of the platforms
20:50	andrewchambers	does that java console not just have a .write method
20:51	TimMc	andrewchambers: Javascript doesn't have anything like OutputStream, no.
20:52	TimMc	You can fake it with incremental output to the page, but you can't do that in the console.
20:52	andrewchambers	Well, im using the nodejs one for a command line program
20:52	andrewchambers	I guess its just used much
20:52	andrewchambers	or too hard to detect which platform you areo n
20:53	andrewchambers	not used much*
21:02	andrewchambers	well did my tests
21:03	andrewchambers	clojure with reflection took 2 minutes to process my file
21:03	andrewchambers	clojure with typehints and large heap took 22 seconds
21:03	andrewchambers	clojurescript took 3 minutes with no optimization and clojurescript took 1.5 minutes with advanced
21:12	akhudek	andrewchambers: reflection really is a killer
21:12	andrewchambers	yeah, it was on a single call to my BufferedReader
21:13	andrewchambers	since im processing a 30 meg text file
21:13	andrewchambers	though the C version does it in less than a second haha
21:13	akhudek	it’s really hard to beat C
21:15	bbloom	shouldn't be that big a disparity for a simple file parse job though...
21:16	akhudek	bbloom: including startup time possibly?
21:16	akhudek	ro rather andrewchambers
21:17	andrewchambers	yeah, but startup time is aroudn a second
21:17	andrewchambers	my PC is pretty quick at starting clojure
21:17	andrewchambers	I am using lazy seqs and other things in the clojure code
21:17	akhudek	lazy seqs slow things down
21:17	andrewchambers	so its probably just overhead from that sort of thing
21:18	andrewchambers	But thats kind of what im testing
21:18	andrewchambers	if using high level features like that negatively affect performance too badly
21:18	akhudek	in my experience they do
21:18	akhudek	it’s ok for most of the code
21:19	akhudek	but awful for the cpu intensive bits
21:19	andrewchambers	haha, well my application is pretty cpu intensive
21:20	akhudek	what is your app?
21:33	andrewchambers	compiler
21:35	technomancy	if you want to write code that sacrifices maintainability for perf, it's hard to beat http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html for a starting point
21:36	andrewchambers	technomancy, thanks for that link , its actually pretty applicable
21:37	technomancy	old but classic
21:38	andrewchambers	If my code is written in a way that allows some concurrency and future computers have more than 4-8 cores it might actually be faster
22:02	ivan	https://github.com/cldwalker/datomic-free/blob/master/bin/datomic-free
22:03	ivan	I find all the useful things from unrelated google searches
22:04	Jaood	talking about datomic, is there a favourite storage option for it?
22:10	wildnux	hi, i am using emacs prelude with clojure mode to learn clojure, when i type say a function and go to next line, it does not auto-indent, how do i make emacs to auto-indent?
22:10	wildnux	i am trying to learn emacs and clojure together :)
22:11	Jaood	ctrl + j
22:11	wildnux	Jaood: :) thank you
22:11	wildnux	Jaood: is there a way to make it automatic with enter key?
22:13	Jaood	wildnux: you can with some elisp I guess (I'm noob too)
22:13	wildnux	Jaood: :) no problem
22:13	Jaood	wildnux: you can ask in emacs, but I have sense that doing that is anti-emacs
22:14	Jaood	#emacs
22:15	wildnux	Jaood: in that case, i will try to remember it
22:15	Jaood	wildnux: you can change pretty much anything in emacs with elisp
22:16	Jaood	wildnux: but stick to emacs/clojure-mode defaults while learning clojure so you don't feel overwhelmed
22:17	Jaood	wildnux: this is a nice starter config https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults
22:18	ToxicFrog	When using lein repl, how do I get it to print the entire stack trace on error by default?
22:35	technomancy	ToxicFrog: not sure, but if you figure it out could you submit a PR to add it to sample.project.clj?
22:35	technomancy	because I am so not a fan of the current behaviour
22:42	ToxicFrog	technomancy: oh, I thought this was something you'd done deliberately
22:42	technomancy	nah I use emacs for everything. trptcolin wrote the repl client.
22:49	ToxicFrog	So apparently lein uses REPLy, which in turn uses nREPL, and I'm not sure which of those the problem is in.
22:49	technomancy	ToxicFrog: it's in reply
22:57	ToxicFrog	technomancy: :repl-options { :caught pst }
22:57	technomancy	nice
22:57	ToxicFrog	That is almost correct; it prints the first line of the stack trace twice for some reason
22:57	technomancy	maybe it's in addition to whatever reply does by default
22:57	ToxicFrog	I suspect so. Still trying to figure out how to suppress that.
22:57	ToxicFrog	This is close enough for me to be content with, though.