#clojure – 2014-05-02

2014-05-02

00:40	fowlslegs	Anyone know a good way to convert 64 bit binary strings into Ints?
00:45	Jaood	,(assoc nil 1 2)
00:45	clojurebot	{1 2}
02:11	storme	,(+ 1 2)
02:11	clojurebot	3
02:11	storme	,'(+ 1 2)
02:11	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
02:11	storme	,(- 4 (+ 1 2))
02:11	clojurebot	1
02:11	storme	,'(- 4 (+ 1 2))
02:11	clojurebot	(- 4 (+ 1 2))
02:11	storme	,(- 4 '(+ 1 2))
02:11	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
03:12	TravisD	is there any attempt to get clojure operating with the ipython notebook? I just installed the new version and it is gorgeous
05:28	m1dnight	guys, is the order of evaluation of a let sequential, or undefined?
05:28	pyrtsa	Sequential.
05:28	ssideris	m1dnight: sequential
05:28	m1dnight	great :) thanks guys
05:28	m1dnight	the docs are not really clear on it
05:29	ssideris	m1dnight: also, previous bindings are available to later bindings
05:29	ssideris	,(let [a 5, b (* 2 a)] b)
05:29	clojurebot	10
05:30	ebaxt	,(let [a 5, b (* 2 a), a 2] a)
05:30	clojurebot	2
05:30	ssideris	and sometimes people do this but I have mixed feelings about it:
05:31	ssideris	,(let [a 5, a (* 2 a), a (* 2 a)] a)
05:31	clojurebot	20
05:32	m1dnight	ssideris: yeah, that's what I figured as well
05:32	m1dnight	but with the laziness there could be some voodoo going on or so :p
05:32	m1dnight	so I just wanted to make sure
05:32	m1dnight	I have something like (let [before (System/nanoTime) <do some heavy work> after (System/nanoTime)] <code>)
05:33	m1dnight	I checked out the criterium library yesterday. Too bad that when a function takes too long to run it only runs it once.
05:33	m1dnight	great library otherwise
05:33	m1dnight	perhaps I can fiddle a bit with the source code
05:41	Glenjamin	hi guys, i'm getting what looks to be a reflection warning from leiningen: call to static method invokeStaticMethod on clojure.lang.Reflector can't be resolved
05:41	Glenjamin	which appears to be from: (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeStaticMethod class__9795__auto__ "main"
05:41	ssideris	do you get that from: lein run
05:42	Glenjamin	yes
05:42	Glenjamin	is that a problem i should raise an issue for, or is it expected?
05:43	ssideris	do you have a class that is configured in project.clj, is compiled ahead of time, and has a main method/
05:43	ssideris	?
05:44	Glenjamin	class as in gen-class ?
05:44	Glenjamin	i've just got the -main that was generated from lein new project
05:44	ssideris	see gen-class here: http://clojure.org/compilation
05:44	ssideris	oh
05:45	ssideris	hm, yeah that should have worked
05:46	Glenjamin	could it be related to ":main ^:skip-aot myproject.main"
05:46	Glenjamin	in the project.clj
05:46	ssideris	very likely
05:46	ssideris	the namespace containing the -main class should be AOT'ed
05:47	ssideris	(AOT = ahead of time)
05:47	Glenjamin	yeah, i hadn't changed anything from the generated template, so i was just confused as to whether or not its a real error or even a problem
05:48	ssideris	so removing ^:skip-aot fixed it?
05:49	Glenjamin	hrm, nope
05:50	Glenjamin	ah, i think this maybe be a minor lein bug
05:50	Glenjamin	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Reflector.java#L198
05:51	Glenjamin	looking at the generated bootstrap code, i think something should have ^Class typehint on it
05:52	Glenjamin	i'll write it up on github and see what people think
05:57	ssideris	good idea
05:58	ssideris	so is there a workaround?
06:00	TEttinger	is it called main or -main in your code, Glenjamin?
06:02	ssideris	TEttinger: Glenjamin mentioned that he's just using the code generated by lein new
06:02	TEttinger	oh!
06:08	ssideris	Glenjamin: I just tried with Leiningen 2.3.4 and it works fine for me
06:08	ssideris	could you paste your project.clj in a pastebin please?
06:11	ticking	I was wondering if theres a a special form to limit lexical/reset scope.
06:22	turbopape	so keyword can contain space ?
06:23	rukor	hi does anyone know if any tools currently exist for automatically generating API documentation from liberator resources
06:24	rukor	or from compojure route specifcations
06:24	ssideris	turbopape: yes ,(keyword "this is valid")
06:25	ssideris	,(keyword "this is valid")
06:25	clojurebot	:this is valid
06:25	andrewchambers	its valid in code, but the reader cant do it?
06:25	turbopape	ok, cool ssideris, I just wanted to know if it was not undefined behaviour....
06:26	turbopape	andrewchambers, I think you must go with a (keyword ....) call
06:32	Glenjamin	TEttinger / ssideris - reduced to testcase https://github.com/glenjamin/lein-new-reflection
06:32	Bronsa	turbopape: ssideris andrewchambers keywords can't contain spaces.
06:33	Bronsa	the `keyword` function doesn't do any validation on its input, it's garbage-in garbage-out
06:34	turbopape	ok BRonsa, is it invalid or merely not verfied and random ?
06:34	andrewchambers	((keyword ":foo bar") {(keyword ":foo bar") 1337 })
06:34	andrewchambers	that works fine
06:35	andrewchambers	whoops ignore the colon
06:35	andrewchambers	,((keyword "foo bar") {(keyword "foo bar") 1337 })
06:35	clojurebot	1337
06:36	Glenjamin	,(type (keyword "a space"))
06:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
06:36	andrewchambers	works fine
06:36	Bronsa	andrewchambers: I didn't say that it doesn't work, but you should consider it undefined behaviour
06:36	ssideris	lengthy discussion on the topic of spaces in keywords here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/WvXYkvLoQhI/discussion
06:36	Bronsa	the fact that it works is just because the implementation doesn't do any validation on its input for performance reasons
06:37	turbopape	ok Bronsa, well explained !
06:37	ssideris	,(pr-str (keyword "will this print"))
06:37	clojurebot	":will this print"
06:37	ssideris	this is broken for example ^
06:38	ssideris	,(read-string (pr-str (keyword "will this print")))
06:38	clojurebot	:will
06:39	andrewchambers	I dunno, i think it has legitimate uses
06:39	andrewchambers	since keywords and strings dont have the same performance characteristics
06:40	andrewchambers	just because the reader cant handle it doesnt mean its undefined
06:40	andrewchambers	if there is a standard that says that i would beleive it :P
06:41	andrewchambers	clojurebot is pretty cool
06:45	s0x	hey guys, im not sure if the following is a speclj or clojure namespace issue. Maybe im just to dumb to see the reason: I try to setup a projectusing speclj for testing and tools.cli for cl-parsing. If i require the clojure.toosl.cli namespace and try to use the function parse-opts somewhere in the source file speclj stops to work complaining about no such var parse-opts. When i call the source by hand, everything works fine :-/ Im acctually struggling with that for
06:45	s0x	I'd be very happy if anyone could give me a bit of support or a hand what the issue might be about
06:49	ssideris	s0x: can you paste the code somewhere?
06:49	ssideris	or at least the (ns) and the actual call to parse-opts
06:50	s0x	ssideris: sure ... give me a sec
06:52	s0x	http://pastebin.com/xLGMiY9e
06:52	s0x	both, the test and the tested file are in there
06:53	ssideris	clojure.tools.cli/parse-opts args cli-options is not even in parentheses, it should be: (clojure.tools.cli/parse-opts args cli-options)
06:54	s0x	oh you're right ... just a c&p mistake ... doesnt change anything though
06:54	s0x	java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.tools.cli/parse-opts, compiling:(chnum/core.clj:26:3)
06:54	s0x	thats the error message i get
06:55	ssideris	weird
06:55	llasram	s0x: Which version of tools.cli do you have in your dependencies?
06:55	s0x	0.3.1
06:56	s0x	speclj 2.9.1, clojure 1.6.0
06:56	llasram	Are you using Leiningen? If so, I'd do `lein deps :tree` to verify
06:56	ssideris	yeah, an earlier version could be pulled in by another dependency
06:56	llasram	Well, not usually
06:57	llasram	But best to verify :-)
06:57	s0x	llasram: yes using lein, there are just the version present, i've mentioned
06:57	ssideris	try changing the require to: (:require [clojure.tools.cli :refer [parse-opts]])
06:57	llasram	Ok. I'm now going to guess that you have a stale AOT of a pre-0.3.0 version somewhere, either in your project or in a badly-packaged dependency
06:57	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
06:58	ssideris	yeah that too, try a lein clean
06:59	s0x	um ... since im strugling with this issue for months i've tried even creating new projects and on different machines with the same effect
06:59	llasram	Ok. I just re-ran your original question
06:59	llasram	Er
06:59	llasram	"went back and read" ha
06:59	llasram	How are you running your speclj tests?
06:59	s0x	lein clean does not change anything either
06:59	llasram	(which causes the error)
06:59	s0x	lein spec
07:00	llasram	version of the speclj plugin?
07:00	s0x	2.9.1
07:00	guns	sox: Others have reported that earlier versions of of tools.cli get pulled in by reply
07:01	s0x	well, lein deps :tree gives no evidence of older versions installed
07:01	guns	I haven't seen this myself, but the snapshot version of reply has at least upgraded to 0.3.1
07:01	llasram	I think this was a problem specific with the speclj plugin
07:01	llasram	Just a sec... almost have it tracked down
07:01	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
07:02	llasram	Man, clojurebot is on a roll this morning
07:03	llasram	There we go! Ok, for not-very-good reasons, the `lein spec` task used to run specs in the Leiningen process
07:03	llasram	Looks like got fixed for the speclj plugin version 3.0.2
07:03	llasram	s0x: If you're on 2.9.1, try adding `:speclj-eval-in :subprocess` to the top-level of your project map
07:03	llasram	(or upgrade your speclj plugin)
07:06	s0x	llasram: wow ... both ways the tests run successfully :D ... thank you so much
07:06	llasram	np!
07:07	s0x	well the last time i was working on that 3.0.2 was not available yet :)
07:17	andrewchambers	,'()
07:17	clojurebot	()
07:18	sm0ke	so in a compojure route how do i get both requestmap and uri param
07:18	sm0ke	so for something like. (GET "/foo/:id" [id] (foo id])
07:18	sm0ke	how do i pass req to foo with id
07:27	pyrtsa	sm0ke: (GET "/foo/:id" [id :as req] (foo req id)) is probably the best option, though there are other ways too.
07:29	sm0ke	hurm
07:29	sm0ke	pyrtsa: id :as req looks really misleading
07:30	sm0ke	does that even work?
07:30	sm0ke	!
07:30	noidi	I think so too, that's why I always put :as first
07:30	sm0ke	what kind of destrucuring is that?
07:30	pyrtsa	sm0ke: It does. It's similar to (defn foo [a b c :as args] ...)
07:30	noidi	https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax
07:30	noidi	Compojure has its own desctructuring syntax for requests
07:31	pyrtsa	You could do something like this too: (GET "/foo/:id" {:as req {:keys [id]} :params} ...)
07:31	noidi	I think [:as req, id] might work as well
07:32	pyrtsa	Really? That'd read nicer.
07:32	noidi	at least that works with Clojure's require :)
07:34	pyrtsa	I think a bigger downside in Compojure is that you can't enumerate the routes at runtime (i.e. the routes aren't bidirectional). And when the list of routes starts to grow, there's nothing to check that you didn't already handle that route somewhere higher up already.
07:34	noidi	yeah, we've hit that bump as well
07:35	pyrtsa	I know there are other attempts to fixing that outside Compojure.
07:35	pyrtsa	https://github.com/juxt/bidi for example.
07:35	noidi	I can see why Prismatic chose to describe schemas as data instead of composition of validation functions
07:39	sm0ke	so i dont really understand this
07:39	sm0ke	if i say (GET "/foo" foo) foo gets called with request?
07:40	sm0ke	if i say (GET "/foo:id" [id] foo) ?
07:40	pyrtsa	noidi, sm0ke: Just tested that [:as req arg1 arg2 arg3] works too.
07:40	sm0ke	what happend then?
07:41	sm0ke	where arg1 arg2 arg3 are url patterns?
07:42	m1dnight	hey guys, I'm having a weird thing with agents. I've many threads (about 100) write to a file couple of 100 times each. (these params should be bigger normally). I wrapped the filepath in an agent and just send-off a function to the agent to update a file.
07:42	pyrtsa	sm0ke: I think Compojure went a bit over board with all the ways the handlers can be written. Mistakes you make often end up being valid code, possibly failing silently. IMO, it's best to always follow the structure (METHOD "<pattern>" [captures...] (a-function-call ...))
07:42	m1dnight	when I use this, my program takes more than minutes to excute, while disabling sending to the agent it executes in a fraction of as econd.
07:42	m1dnight	any tips..?
07:42	pyrtsa	E.g. (GET "/foo/:foo-id/bar/:bar-id" [:as req foo-id bar-id] (foo/handle-foo-bar req foo-id bar-id))
07:42	m1dnight	even when the sendoff doesn't do any writing, it still takes a huge amount of time.
07:43	sm0ke	pyrtsa: thanks
07:43	sm0ke	(inc pyrtsa)
07:43	lazybot	⇒ 4
07:43	noidi	sm0ke, the thing after the path is the name for the request parameter. In (GET "/foo" foo ...) the request parameter is made available under the name "foo"
07:44	pyrtsa	sm0ke: PROTIP, to test Compojure routes on the REPL, pass in a map with at least the :uri and :request-method fields, e.g. ((compojure.core/GET "/foo/:id" [:as req id] {:body (str "foo-" id)}) {:uri "/foo/123" :request-method :get})
07:44	sm0ke	noidi: sorry but i think that was a typo
07:44	sm0ke	that is not valid iirc
07:45	sm0ke	(GET "foo" [] foo) is ok though
07:45	pyrtsa	noidi: (GET "/foo" foo ...) would bind the whole request object itself to the name `foo`.
07:46	noidi	sorry, that's what I was trying to say
07:46	sm0ke	ugh ugly stuff
07:46	noidi	the request is passed as a parameter to the handler :D
07:46	sm0ke	(GET "foo" [] foo) makes no sense to me
07:49	noidi	sm0ke, https://www.refheap.com/84861
07:49	noidi	does that make any more sense?
07:55	sm0ke	ugh thanks noidi
07:55	sm0ke	still need to grok it i guess
07:55	sm0ke	bookmarked
08:06	noidi	sm0ke, if you're unfamiliar with destructuring, this might help http://blog.jayfields.com/2010/07/clojure-destructuring.html
08:09	phillord	I'm just reading Wiliiam Byrd's thesis on mini-kanran. In one place he defines "alwayso" and "nevero". When he uses "alwayso" he writes it like (run1(x) (== #t x) alwayso (==#f x)) while when he uses never, he writes (nevero) -- i.e. one looks like a function call, and one looks like a value. Am I confused over scheme syntax or is this right?
08:18	m1dnight	if anybody has a moment, could they help me out with my clojure question? : http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23427457/clojure-using-agents-slows-down-execution-too-much
08:18	m1dnight	I'm stumped as to what's going on..
08:20	m1dnight	it just seems to be the case that code doesn't immediatly return
08:20	m1dnight	the method exits fine (well, it prints the last statement I've just added)
08:21	Anderkent	m1dnight: send-off spawns a new thread executor every time you call it
08:21	Anderkent	wait no i'm reading it wrong
08:21	ucb	agents use the global threadpool IIRC
08:21	Anderkent	pretty sure agents have their own threadpool
08:21	m1dnight	yeah, the file is written to. and each thread does it work properly and on time. when I'm done running the (barrier/run-with-barrier) I print "done", which gets printed instantly
08:22	ucb	how are you spawning new thread m1dnight? if using (future...) then your agent thread is probably competing with the producer threads
08:22	m1dnight	but then it keeps waiting a long time to finish..
08:22	Anderkent	m1dnight: oh
08:22	m1dnight	threads (repeatedly number (fn [] (Thread. work)))]
08:22	m1dnight	like this
08:22	Anderkent	you need to call (shudtown-agents)
08:22	m1dnight	oh
08:22	Anderkent	when you're done sending stuff
08:22	m1dnight	I might try that
08:22	m1dnight	let me try, thanks man :)
08:22	ucb	that too
08:22	m1dnight	that did the trick!!! :)
08:22	m1dnight	thanks guys!
08:23	m1dnight	strange the programing clojure book didn't mention it
08:23	m1dnight	if anybody has a SO account i'll be glad to accept it as the anser
08:25	foodoo	3
08:40	Anderkent	ucb: go ahead
08:41	ucb	I don't think I have an SO account anyway :)
09:19	mi6x3m	clojure
09:19	mi6x3m	is set! the same as binding but without the explicit scope?
09:20	CookedGr1phon	does anybody know how I might go about configuring cljx for :cljs and :clj (:android or :jvm) using features?
09:20	CookedGr1phon	I can't seem to find any documentation, it's just mentioned in a couple of places
09:20	llasram	mi6x3m: `set!` is a special form which can do multiple things. Applied to a dynamic var w/ an existing thread-local binding, it will change the var's value in that current binding frame
09:21	mi6x3m	llasram: so it saves me another binding frame?
09:21	llasram	No
09:21	llasram	It mutates the value in the current binding frame
09:22	llasram	Well, or "yes" -- I'm not sure which sense of "save" you mean there
09:22	mi6x3m	ok, I see, so if I use it inside a loop recur for instance it will take effect for the things before set! also
09:22	mi6x3m	where another binding frame will not
09:23	llasram	What are you trying to do?
09:26	mi6x3m	llasram: nothing, just asking questions to get a clear picture :)
09:27	llasram	ok
09:41	_trev	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
09:41	_trev	at clojure.main.<clinit>(main.java:20)
09:41	_trev	Caused by: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/core/cache/CacheProtocol, compiling:(user.clj:1:1)
09:41	_trev	Morning everyone. I'm trying to uberjar my app on a ubuntu box, but I keep getting this error "
09:41	_trev	Any thoughts?
09:41	_trev	I'm using the cmd "lein ring uberjar"
09:44	clgv	_trev: sound like an AOT problem, possibly old class files lying around. try "lein clean"
09:45	_trev	Same deal clgv :(
09:46	clgv	does "lein repl" work?
09:46	_trev	no
09:46	_trev	I get that same error
09:47	clgv	what is the content of user.clj?
09:47	clgv	refheap.com please
09:49	_trev	https://www.refheap.com/84869 clgv
09:49	clgv	_trev: check "lein deps :tree" whether you accidently pull in 2 different versions of core.cache
09:50	_trev	only 1 core.cache
09:50	_trev	[org.clojure/core.cache "0.6.3"]
09:52	clgv	can you post the full stacktrace on reheap.com?
09:52	clgv	*refheap
09:52	_trev	yeah 1 sec
09:54	_trev	https://www.refheap.com/84871 clgv
09:56	clgv	_trev: hmm your problem seems to be somewhere in that namespace www.models.ghub
09:56	_trev	hmm. It works on my osx box though
09:57	_trev	my ubuntu server is unable to create the uberjar :(
09:57	_trev	clgv:
09:59	_trev	[clojure.core.cache :refer [->TTLCache ttl-cache-factory]] pretty standard
10:11	clgv	_trev: that project is not hosted on github or somewhere similar?
10:12	_trev	clojure.core.cache?
10:20	_trev	Thanks for the help clgv I'll have to work on fixing the problem later
10:21	clgv	no I meant yours ;)
10:33	AssCancer	hiya
10:33	SparkySparkyBoom	im trying to use this library
10:33	SparkySparkyBoom	https://github.com/cgrand/regex
10:34	SparkySparkyBoom	when i tried this command in the repl, it gave me a FileNotFoundException
10:34	SparkySparkyBoom	(require '[net.cgrand/regex :as regex])
10:35	SparkySparkyBoom	i dont understand what's wrong
10:35	SparkySparkyBoom	this is the relevant file
10:35	SparkySparkyBoom	https://github.com/cgrand/regex/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/regex.clj
10:35	`szx	SparkySparkyBoom: do you have the library as a dependency in your project.clj?
10:35	SparkySparkyBoom	yes
10:35	SparkySparkyBoom	[net.cgrand/regex "1.1.0"]
10:36	whodidth1s	net.grand.regex :as regex
10:37	SparkySparkyBoom	AH
10:37	SparkySparkyBoom	i forgot the '
10:37	SparkySparkyBoom	symbol literals
10:37	SparkySparkyBoom	XD
10:37	SparkySparkyBoom	sorry about that
10:46	SparkySparkyBoom	does anyone know of any more examples of that library
10:46	SparkySparkyBoom	other than the readme
10:47	eraserhd	What is the thinking about not having single-component namespaces?
10:49	cbp	You cant use them in java
10:49	llasram	eraserhd: Because of the way Clojure generates classes, it results in package-less classes, which can cause some issues from the Java side
10:50	llasram	In practice access from Clojure is completely fine
10:51	cbp	you get classes in the default package which cant be referenced from other packages in java
11:18	jcromartie	What are y'allses thoughts on RequireJS vs some sort of middleware to bundle up script includes into a minified package?
11:19	jcromartie	I could probably use the Closure compiler to do it from Clojure
11:19	bbloom	jcromartie: in the context of clojurescript? or generally?
11:19	jcromartie	just to make things confusing for everybody
11:19	jcromartie	in the context of a Clojure web app that serves up regular old JS for regular old webpages
11:19	jcromartie	sorry, nothing fancy
11:19	jcromartie	(why aren't we using cljs?)
11:20	bbloom	if you've got regular ol' web pages, don't get fancy with module loaders
11:20	bbloom	requirejs, browserify, etc are exceptionally complex
11:20	jcromartie	you think?
11:20	jcromartie	requirejs doesn't seem too complex to me
11:21	bbloom	browserify makes sense for larger codebases and for playing nice with node.js components
11:21	bbloom	requirejs makes sense for really rich apps that need asynchronous code loading and such
11:21	jcromartie	we just have a few bits of client side code
11:21	bbloom	but otherwise, simple concatenation gets the job done for your everyday static page w/ a little js on it
11:21	jcromartie	really not much at all
11:22	jcromartie	it could be in a single file really
11:22	bbloom	yeah, don't worry about "large" packages
11:22	jcromartie	but I like to be organized
11:22	bbloom	make files are your friend here
11:22	bbloom	all you want is a single rule like this:
11:22	bbloom	mysite.js: js/foo.js js/bar.js js/baz.js
11:23	bbloom	cat $* > $@
11:23	bbloom	and you're done
11:23	bbloom	add a mysite.min.js: mysite.js rule as well to run your favorite compressor
11:23	bbloom	maybe add a mysite.min.js.gz rule too if you want to send pre-compressed files to your CDN
11:24	bbloom	don't get fancier than this unless you need to
11:24	jcromartie	and integrating that into lein?
11:24	bbloom	don't
11:24	jcromartie	that seems like a rather ugly way to go for development time, though
11:24	jcromartie	I would have to run make every time I update af ile
11:25	bbloom	nah, just create a ./dev.sh file and run that while you work
11:25	bbloom	you can put your sass/compass/less/whatever watch in there too
11:25	jcromartie	yeah
11:25	bbloom	you can have dev.sh run your lein server if you want
11:26	sm0ke	how do you send a pretty print json to browser?
11:26	sm0ke	i am using cheshire and {:pretty true} doesnt really work
11:26	sm0ke	neither does (with-out-str (pprint json))
11:27	jcromartie	bbloom: that also adds another step to the final build process
11:27	bbloom	jcromartie: what's your final build process?
11:27	jcromartie	well it's already a rake script :)
11:27	jcromartie	that calls lein among other things
11:27	bbloom	jcromartie: ugh rake.
11:27	jcromartie	yeah
11:27	jcromartie	for our purposes it's a little overkill
11:27	bbloom	jcromartie: anyway, make can call rake and vice versa
11:27	bbloom	rake isn't overkill, it's bad.
11:28	llasram	bbloom: Why so?
11:28	bbloom	it's got some make-like features that most ppl don't know exists, then it does some stupid "task" level stuff
11:28	jcromartie	what make-like features that most people don't know exists?
11:28	bbloom	it's slow, impossible to debug, and encourages you to do stupid things
11:28	bbloom	jcromartie: http://rake.rubyforge.org/doc/rakefile_rdoc.html#label-Rules
11:29	jcromartie	damn
11:29	bbloom	for some weird reason, people want ONE COMMAND LINE TOOL TO RULE THEM ALL and insist on everything being `rake foo` or `lein bar`
11:29	jcromartie	yeah I have used file tasks before, but not rules
11:29	bbloom	meanwhile, a ./script directory is 100X more dev friendly
11:29	jcromartie	it certainly can be
11:30	jcromartie	./script/deploy
11:30	jcromartie	./script/dev
11:30	jcromartie	sure
11:30	bbloom	best feature:
11:30	bbloom	ls ./script
11:30	lazybot	etc home lib mnt proc sbin src srv
11:30	jcromartie	who doesn't love a shell script :)
11:30	bbloom	i'll take bash over rake any day of the week
11:31	bbloom	:-P
11:31	bbloom	and i know rake better than most people ever will :-P
11:31	llasram	The only reason I'd argue is because pretty much every damn time I think "this is tiny, so I'll just do it in bash" it grows beyond "tiny" and I experience regret
11:31	bbloom	llasram: so don't do it in bash, do it in python or ruby or whatever you like
11:31	jcromartie	well it doesn't have to be bash for every script
11:31	bbloom	#!/bin/whatever
11:32	jcromartie	yeah
11:32	jcromartie	#!/bin/lein
11:32	jcromartie	:P
11:32	jcromartie	don't
11:32	llasram	hah
11:32	jcromartie	not that that would even work
11:32	llasram	bbloom: Sure. I was just disagreeing with taking bash over rake :-p
11:33	jcromartie	I'm a little sick of typing "bundle exec" to do anything in my clojure app
11:33	jcromartie	someone else designed the deployment script
11:33	jcromartie	:\|
11:33	bbloom	jcromartie: solution:
11:33	jcromartie	I'm taking it over though
11:34	jcromartie	I'm the primary one running this project now
11:34	bbloom	echo "#!/bin/bash\nbundle exec\nrake" > ./script/build
11:34	lazybot	"#!/bin/bash\nbundle exec\nrake" > ./script/build
11:34	bbloom	lazybot: your sh parser sucks :-P
11:34	jcromartie	:)
11:58	SparkySparkyBoom	i tried looking through the source of this library
11:58	SparkySparkyBoom	https://github.com/cgrand/regex
11:58	SparkySparkyBoom	but i couldnt figure out a way to match a word
12:00	SparkySparkyBoom	does anyone know how to use the lib?
12:01	gtrak	SparkySparkyBoom: did you try the built in stuff first?
12:01	SparkySparkyBoom	yes
12:02	SparkySparkyBoom	ive composed regexes with it
12:02	gtrak	ah, ok. just making sure :-)
12:02	cbp	What was the name of that routing library that used data instead of macros?
12:02	cbp	there's probably more than one
12:02	gtrak	pedestal, bidi..
12:03	SparkySparkyBoom	it's weird because the exec function's args are all characters
12:03	gtrak	I think prismatic has one
12:03	SparkySparkyBoom	er character equivalents
12:03	gtrak	fnhouse
12:03	SparkySparkyBoom	*regexes and character literals
12:04	nullptr`	cbp: https://github.com/caribou/polaris explicitly defines itself as you describe
12:04	cbp	Ah yes that one
12:04	cbp	thanks!
12:07	eflynn	is it possible to integrate PHP with clojure
12:08	cbp	I mean you can marshal data between them. Maybe you can even do something nutty with that java bridge thing
12:09	eflynn	cbp: yeah but i’m clueless when it comes to java web tech
12:09	SparkySparkyBoom	figured it out
12:09	SparkySparkyBoom	:D
12:10	SparkySparkyBoom	i was right about the character thing
12:10	eflynn	chp: how would you marshal data between
12:10	cbp	with json or something of the sort
12:25	manutter	or possibly this: https://github.com/igorw/edn/blob/master/src/parser.php
12:25	manutter	(just had to google that, don't know if it's any good or not)
12:30	coventry	https://github.com/rodnaph/clj-php (not saying it's a good idea. :-)
12:41	justin_smith	wow
12:43	manutter	just ran across that one myself
12:44	manutter	I'd be more interested in writing a php interpreter in clojure
12:44	manutter	or a hack interpreter
12:46	expez	gfredericks: nice!
12:49	m1dnight	hmm, clojure just ignored my post and pre? :p
12:49	m1dnight	is there a setting I have to force? (im using lein)
12:50	justin_smith	m1dnight: what do they look like?
12:50	pyrtsa	m1dnight: Where did you use those? They aren't supported in all places.
12:50	m1dnight	call: (load-store-only 30 5 20 500) and constraint:
12:50	m1dnight	(defn load-store-only [thread-count cache-size store-size store-latency]
12:50	m1dnight	"Test requesting from the store"
12:50	m1dnight	{
12:50	m1dnight	:pre [(> store-size thread-count)]
12:50	m1dnight	:post []
12:50	justin_smith	it is easy to use :pre and :post wrong, there is no error message, they just don't fire
12:50	m1dnight	}
12:50	pyrtsa	m1dnight: Your docstring is in wrong place.
12:51	m1dnight	snap
12:51	pyrtsa	FYI, :pre and :post also won't work if assert is set to false, but who does that. :)
12:51	m1dnight	oh, it seems to be so, yes
12:51	gfredericks	I just went on a rant in the internal chatroom about arglists going on the first line
12:51	m1dnight	had not noticed it before!
12:51	gfredericks	due to exactly this possibility
12:51	m1dnight	so it's <name> <docstring> <params>
12:51	pyrtsa	Yes.
12:52	gfredericks	,(doc defn)
12:52	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] prepost-map? ...] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] prepost-map? body) + ...]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata. prepost-map defines a map with optional keys :pre and :post that contain collections of pre or post conditions."
12:52	m1dnight	damn, sorry I missed that guys
12:52	m1dnight	figured I'd get a compiler error
12:52	m1dnight	thanks again :p
12:52	cbp	Happens to everyone
12:52	gfredericks	maybe eastwood would catch that as an unused literal
12:52	justin_smith	m1dnight: yeah, because pre / post are just a regular data structure, they don't throw an error when malformed / in the wrong place
12:53	justin_smith	they just don't do what you expect, is all
12:53	pyrtsa	I just wish :pre and :post would allow a custom error message like assert does. The errors from :pre and :post are often so unhelpful when they happen.
12:53	gfredericks	well the post should throw
12:53	cbp	I have actually very old code with docstrings in the wrong place haha
12:53	gfredericks	,(fn [a] "Putting my post in the wrong place" {:post [(even? %)]} a)
12:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:53	pyrtsa	Heh, so postconditions are safer actually. :)
12:54	gfredericks	pyrtsa: I sent an email to clojure-dev about the error message thing with a couple proposals for how to support it
12:54	gfredericks	nobody responded
12:54	pyrtsa	gfredericks: Link?
12:54	gfredericks	I'll check
12:54	justin_smith	,(fn [a] "Putting my post in the wrong place" {:post [(even? a)]} a)
12:54	justin_smith	,((fn [a] "Putting my post in the wrong place" {:post [(even? a)]} a) 1)
12:54	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval71$fn__72 sandbox$eval71$fn__72@1ed8be3>
12:54	clojurebot	1
12:54	gfredericks	justin_smith: what's the point of a post without using %?
12:55	m1dnight	hah :) nice
12:55	justin_smith	gfredericks: ahh, got it
12:55	m1dnight	he meant pre, I think
12:55	justin_smith	m1dnight: no, I just didn't understand what he was demonstrating
12:55	gfredericks	pyrtsa: just kidding I did get one response: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure-dev/preconditions/clojure-dev/eNK9UZ5HklI/BDa6CDHenWkJ
12:58	pyrtsa	gfredericks: Ha, that's actually a very nice way to achieve it.
12:59	SparkySparkyBoom	is there a function to add one map to another where only the same keys are modified
12:59	pyrtsa	Thanks!
12:59	SparkySparkyBoom	like a set union
12:59	m1dnight	hey, they work now \o/
12:59	m1dnight	thanks a bunch guys
12:59	justin_smith	SparkySparkyBoom: merge / merge-with
12:59	m1dnight	free internets for everyone!
12:59	technomancy	(map inc @#clojure)
13:00	hyPiRion	technomancy: that one is just too lazy
13:00	SparkySparkyBoom	(add {:a "a" :b "c"} {:a "aa" :b "bb" :c "cc"})
13:00	technomancy	hyPiRion: mapv then?
13:00	SparkySparkyBoom	where the result is {:a "aa" :b "bb"}
13:00	hyPiRion	technomancy: yeah, or dorun
13:00	SparkySparkyBoom	justin_smith: will it do that?
13:00	justin_smith	SparkySparkyBoom: so you don't want union, you want intersection :P
13:00	technomancy	I get a guilty pleasure from using mapv for side-effects
13:01	SparkySparkyBoom	ah
13:01	SparkySparkyBoom	sorry
13:01	SparkySparkyBoom	yes
13:01	justin_smith	something like (merge (select-keys a (keys b)) (select-keys b (keys a)))
13:01	gfredericks	merge-intersectingly!
13:01	pyrtsa	Maybe just (select-keys b (keys a))
13:02	gfredericks	then b has to have the keys
13:02	pyrtsa	Right.
13:02	pyrtsa	(merge a (select-keys b (keys a))
13:02	gfredericks	I guess that's what intersection does
13:03	justin_smith	,(let [a {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2} b {:b 3 :c :4 :d 5 :e 6}] (merge (select-keys a (keys b)) (select-keys b (keys a)))) SparkySparkyBoom
13:03	clojurebot	{:b 3, :c :4}
13:04	johnjelinek	hihi all, how's it goin'?
13:04	justin_smith	pyrtsa: well that's not an intersection, it has all keys of a
13:04	pyrtsa	justin_smith: The original example didn't require it to be an intersection actually.
13:04	justin_smith	pyrtsa: I could have misunderstood the intention
13:04	johnjelinek	got a question: I have a higher-order function defined in a let so I can use it, but it is executing in the let and also when my functions use it
13:05	johnjelinek	how can I declare it without using it in the let?
13:05	gfredericks	johnjelinek: that shouldn't be happening; can you share your code?
13:05	manutter	Do you h ave the fn name after the (fn part?
13:05	johnjelinek	lemme clean it up and I'll refheap it :)
13:05	justin_smith	johnjelinek: things don't execute unless you call them
13:06	SparkySparkyBoom	justin_smith: thank you
13:06	manutter	it should look like (let [my-fn (fn [arg] (body))])
13:07	justin_smith	SparkySparkyBoom: actually, taking a second look at that, since we are doing a merge we only get the values from b
13:08	justin_smith	,(let [a {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2} b {:b 3 :c :4 :d 5 :e 6}] (select-keys b (keys a))) this is equivalent
13:08	clojurebot	{:b 3, :c :4}
13:09	justin_smith	the other one had a redundant selection of elements of a that would all get replaced (though as I mentioned above merge-with could do something useful)
13:10	rasmusto	(reductions (fn [v f] (mapcat f v)) [{:seed blah}] (cycle [fn1 fn2 fn3])))
13:10	rasmusto	is this ^ a thing?
13:10	johnjelinek	https://www.refheap.com/85025
13:11	johnjelinek	I believe the part in the let is being executed because I get "401" printed out, which is a (.statusCode resp)
13:12	johnjelinek	and it happens on start (and also when the channel gets that event message)
13:12	justin_smith	johnjelinek: I see no let in that code...
13:12	johnjelinek	https://www.refheap.com/85025#L-11
13:12	johnjelinek	line 11
13:12	justin_smith	oh never mind
13:12	justin_smith	yeah, I missed it, see it now
13:13	justin_smith	so you are thinking the token-handler is being called prematurely?
13:14	m1dnight	well, I just figured out you can't use function names that reside in the core namesapce
13:14	m1dnight	derp :p
13:14	johnjelinek	I think so, the println is being called when the process starts
13:14	justin_smith	m1dnight: you can, it's just not a good idea usually - but you can still call clojure.core/shadowed explicitly
13:15	justin_smith	johnjelinek: if the let is on the top level, I would expect to see the go-loop be executed immediately
13:15	justin_smith	which could lead to token-handler being called, I would assume
13:16	johnjelinek	but the channel doesn't have anything in the buffer on start
13:16	johnjelinek	so, the go-loop shouldn't grab anything
13:16	johnjelinek	brb, lunch
13:16	justin_smith	johnjelinek: in general anything with side effects should be in a function (maybe an 'init') so that it can be explicitly run / re-run instead of running at namespace load time
13:21	cbp	m1dnight: use (:refer-clojure :exclude [..]) It's fine as long as they are not special forms
13:34	m1dnight	cbp: yeah, I went with that one instead of renaming all my functions
13:34	m1dnight	funny quirck though :)
13:34	m1dnight	well, kinda logical, actually
13:53	dudnik	hey
13:54	teslanick	Nek is now known as Guest82402... Guest82402 is now known as nikdudnik... nikdudnik is now known as dudnik
13:54	teslanick	WHO ARE YOU REALLY!?
14:00	m1dnight	SANTA
14:37	dbasch	is there an emacs mode for edn files?
14:37	amalloy	gfredericks: #(fn (inc %) {:post [(even? %)]})
14:37	jonasen	dbasch: clojure-mode?
14:38	amalloy	now, that code is illegal because i got the args to fn wrong :P
14:38	amalloy	but, okay, imagine the syntax is right - will % throw in that context?
14:38	dbasch	jonasen: I guess that works, thanks
14:38	amalloy	i think probably not, but it will refer to the wrong %: the function's argument, not its return value
14:39	gfredericks	amalloy: easy to find out
14:40	gfredericks	,#(fn (inc %) {:post [(even? %)]})
14:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration inc should be a vector, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:40	gfredericks	,#(fn [a] "docstring" {:post [(even? %)]} a)
14:40	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval51$fn__52 sandbox$eval51$fn__52@39f4d3>
14:40	gfredericks	I don't think I've ever used #(fn ...) before
14:41	gfredericks	(inc amalloy)
14:41	lazybot	⇒ 104
14:41	gfredericks	amalloy: wtg with the weird edge case, as always
14:41	gtrak	technomancy: I tried to get syme going on a m3.medium, you mentioned it would give me the option if I picked a custom AMI, firstly the AMI didn't load, secondly, I didn't get the option. Here's why I think it's hard-coded: https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/instance.clj#L97 . Guess I'm SOL until I decide to fork and deploy it myself? :-)
14:42	amalloy	gfredericks: i'm sure i've used #(fn ...) somewhere. probably #(fn [x] (fn [y] ...)) even, in jiraph i think
14:44	gfredericks	amalloy: did it make you miss haskell?
14:45	bbloom	mmm currying thunks
14:45	amalloy	gfredericks: ah, https://github.com/ninjudd/jiraph/blob/develop/src/flatland/jiraph/wrapped_layer.clj#L9 is what i was thinking of
14:46	gfredericks	amalloy: did you use an IO monad?
14:47	amalloy	gfredericks: i tried
14:48	amalloy	it went kinda okay
14:48	technomancy	gtrak: well aw crap
14:49	technomancy	gtrak: if you have a heroku account I can add you as a collaborator
14:49	technomancy	so you don't have to get your own copy going
14:49	amalloy	the main problem was that i only had a good implementation of >>, not >>=. but it was still kinda useful, because it meant we had a first-class model of IO actions to perform, which helped if like...the machine had crashed mid-transaction, allowing us to pretend-to-perform the actions that had already been done
14:49	gtrak	technomancy: ah, yea I do, just not sure I can get to it today. Maybe I can take a look in a couple hours, though?
14:50	technomancy	sure, just let me know your account
14:50	gtrak	gary dot trakhman at gmail dot com
14:51	gfredericks	clojurebot: gary is a cool guy
14:51	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
14:51	technomancy	gtrak: you got it
14:51	gtrak	cool!
14:52	gfredericks	amalloy: "had already been done" meaning "hadn't already been done"?
14:52	jcromartie	justin_smith: yeah? looking for full-time?
14:53	justin_smith	yeah
14:53	justin_smith	caribou got defunded
14:53	justin_smith	it's been a good run, parting ways in good spirits
14:54	amalloy	gfredericks: no, i had it right. suppose you had some IO action that adds 1 to a person's age, then reads their age
14:54	llasram	justin_smith: Will it be dismantled and sold as scrap abstractions?
14:54	amalloy	we need to not actually write any change to disk if that part of the transaction was already done; but your read needs to return the old result before you "attempt" to write, and then the new result after your wriet
14:55	justin_smith	llasram: buried in a secret spot in the desert
14:55	llasram	ha!
14:55	amalloy	we were able to do that because we had a revisioned database, where the past is immutable. so we'd detect you'd already done that write, and look in the past for the first read, drop your write, then look in the present for a second read
14:55	llasram	justin_smith: Not enough clients willing to go the Clojure route?
14:56	dbasch	justin_smith: any interest in cryptocurrencies?
14:56	justin_smith	llasram: the company is getting bigger, more companies that have their own stack already / are in the position to dictate a specific tech stack
14:56	justin_smith	*more clients
14:56	technomancy	justin_smith: were you doing OSS work full time up to now?
14:56	justin_smith	dbasch: I'll get back to you on that :)
14:57	justin_smith	technomancy: divided between OSS work on the framework and client work using that framework
14:57	technomancy	cool
14:57	justin_smith	technomancy: company decided they were spending too much money on work that was not bringing in revenue (almost all the work has been OSS recently)
14:58	technomancy	yeah, it happens
14:58	jcromartie	PS we are hiring for work w/ some Clojure here. http://www.element84.com/jobs
14:58	technomancy	I got hired to do primarily leiningen originally.
14:58	jcromartie	you need to be able to be in the DC area once in a while
14:58	jcromartie	but we are more and more remote
14:58	justin_smith	jcromartie: thanks man - people can also hit me up via pm or in #clojure-social since this is a little OT for #clojure
14:59	jcromartie	you are right
14:59	jcromartie	yes, anybody who wants to use Clojure at work should come to #clojure-social :)
15:06	lemonodor	element #84 is a pretty nasty one!
15:06	jcromartie	yeah, it's a pun on the owner's name
15:07	jcromartie	I need an Enlive selector that selects only the topmost div,
15:07	jcromartie	not any child ones
15:08	jcromartie	[:div] selects the child divs as well as the topmost one
15:08	jcromartie	[[:div first-of-type]] does too
15:12	m1dnight	(sorry i'm asking another question guys) I have an atom to stop threads from looping. I tried setting that atom to see if my threads would stop and they do. When i return it from my function to reset it to false in an other scope it doesn't work anymore.
15:12	m1dnight	any clue as to why?
15:13	m1dnight	http://pastebin.com/LHQx4P55 this is the code..
15:13	m1dnight	I've shown the part where it stops working
15:13	m1dnight	again something I don't get :p
15:14	m1dnight	hmm maybe I should declare the stop atom in my original scope
15:15	m1dnight	ill try that first
15:15	jcromartie	yeah, those atoms are all out of scope of the fn returned by thread-factory-looping
15:15	jcromartie	you could use thread-local bindings with dynamic vars for all of them
15:15	gtrak	technomancy: quick glance at the diff? http://sprunge.us/dEXX
15:16	jcromartie	this would actually be one of those places where it makes sense :)
15:16	jcromartie	wait, no they are passed as args
15:16	jcromartie	never mind
15:17	technomancy	gtrak: lgtm
15:17	m1dnight	oh
15:17	gtrak	sweet, I'll deploy it and try it out.
15:17	technomancy	gtrak: are there restrictions about what AMIs can be used with what instance sizes?
15:17	gtrak	I have no idea.
15:17	technomancy	maybe I'm getting confused with having them tied to specific regions only
15:17	technomancy	that seems more sensible
15:17	m1dnight	hrm, strange it's the same behaviour when I pass my stopping atom TO the thread-factory-looping
15:18	gtrak	technomancy: a couple-hours hackathon could really polish this up. I'll pitch it to my meetup.
15:19	technomancy	gtrak: if you could open issues for things you run into it would be great too
15:19	technomancy	I've hardly touched it since my original coding frenzy
15:19	gtrak	validation, error-checking, logging would be my first concern.
15:20	technomancy	the errors you get launching an instance are pretty annoying
15:20	gtrak	from ec2 api, or from syme?
15:20	technomancy	from ec2
15:20	technomancy	well
15:20	technomancy	I mean, we pass the annoyance on to the user
15:21	gtrak	ah, gotcha.
15:22	gtrak	here goes nothin'
15:23	gtrak	technomancy: 3.5GB of memory, success.. almost something that can run lein, now :P
15:27	m1dnight	hmm can't seem to fix it with those atoms
15:27	m1dnight	is it expected behavior?
15:27	gtrak	what's weird is how uncomfortable 15 cents makes me feel disproportionate to the utility.
15:27	gtrak	compared to $5 for a coffee
15:33	technomancy	gtrak: I thought about using digital ocean instead since it's so much cheaper
15:33	technomancy	but the fact that everyone already has an AWS account counts for a lot
15:33	gtrak	not me!
15:33	gtrak	had to get one.
15:34	technomancy	whaaaaaat
15:34	gtrak	we don't all work at heroku, man
15:34	amalloy	technomancy lives in some weird AWS-centric world
15:34	amalloy	i certainly don't have an AWS account
15:34	technomancy	but you have an amazon account
15:34	gtrak	well, yea
15:34	gtrak	but oddly the credit cards don't sync up
15:35	gtrak	oh wow, DO is way better.
15:36	gtrak	what happened to pair.io anyway, did they fall off the map?
15:36	gtrak	I tried to use their form (I don't have an invite) and got a nasty stacktrace :-)
15:38	m1dnight	allright, got the error :) don't join threads before you stop them..
15:38	yeoj___	if i have a program printing to stdout, is that any slower than writting to a file? I'm trying to build a command line program i can use with named pipes and other unix programs.
15:39	ToxicFrog	yeoj___: it depends?
15:39	ToxicFrog	I mean, first of all, stdout might be connected to a file itself, or a named pipe, or another program's stdin, rather than a tty
15:40	ToxicFrog	If it is connected to a tty, well, which is more expensive, writing to disk (what disk? What filesystem? What caching policy?) or redrawing the tty emulator's window?
15:41	llasram	I noticed at some point that writing to Java's stdout was insaaaenly slow
15:41	llasram	I didn't drill too far into it, but id definitely didn't seem to matter if I was using Clojure's `out` or hitting `System/out`
15:42	llasram	Maybe `PrintWriter`?
15:42	PigDude	how does a function pass `h', bound {:as h} to another function?
15:42	ToxicFrog	And yeah, if we're involving java it also depends on what kind of horrifying clusterfuck of writers/buffers/etc is wrapped around stdout
15:42	PigDude	is there a way to do this without apply?
15:42	PigDude	so one function expects (f :a 1 :b 2), now i want to pass those params directly to g which expects the same
15:43	PigDude	also, generally how to provide a hash to a function like this? **kwargs in python
15:43	gtrak	~google clojure apply-kw
15:43	clojurebot	First, out of 578 results is:
15:43	clojurebot	ClojureDocs - clojure.core/apply
15:43	clojurebot	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/apply
15:43	gtrak	well, here it is anyway: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/9ctJC-LXNps/discussion
15:44	PigDude	this is a roundabout way of syaing it's not in the language?
15:44	PigDude	(yet)
15:44	cbp	~mapply
15:44	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
15:44	gtrak	there's a JIRA ticket, but it's been there for years
15:45	gtrak	about 1.5 yearas
15:45	PigDude	i have some functions that accept a common config hash, this is also used as a dispatch in a multimethod
15:45	cbp	use an explicit map. Trying it to do the python way is a PITA
15:45	llasram	(inc cbp)
15:45	lazybot	⇒ 5
15:45	PigDude	so for the multimethod it has to be the first arg, but i think usually an arg like this is the last arg
15:46	llasram	PigDude: Nope -- optional argument map first arg now
15:46	llasram	There's still some documentation suggesting to do it the "keyword argument" style way, but check out edn/read
15:46	PigDude	llasram: sorry?
15:46	PigDude	ah, i see
15:46	PigDude	ok, so i can do it 'right way' and be consistent w/ multimethod
15:47	llasram	I'm not quite sure what you're talking about wrt multimethods.... You can make the dispatch for a multimethod be based on anything about the arguments
15:48	PigDude	my multimethods have different arities, i guess i could have it just pull the last item off, but like yous aid this is not the way to make such an API now
15:50	PigDude	thanks everyone :)
15:56	Raynes	Now refheap's paste inflation bug should be fixed.
15:57	Raynes	Let's all pretend refheap has 85k legitimate pastes and move on with our lives.
15:57	bbloom	Raynes: i can't move on. this is an important issue. you've been lying to us about pastes & therefore you're a bad man who must be flogged publicly
15:58	bbloom	....time passes...
15:58	bbloom	ok, i'm over it
15:58	bbloom	carry on
15:59	cbp	boy clojure sure is popular
15:59	jimjams	Quick dumb question: How can you get the basis keys from a variable containing a record type?
16:00	jimjams	I can get the keys if I have the actual type in my hand using the static Type/getBasis method
16:00	jimjams	but if I pass in the type to a macro, I'm totall lost.
16:00	jimjams	*totally
16:00	amalloy	jimjams: i think if you don't already know what those keys are, you probably don't want to be using a record?
16:00	bbloom	,(deftype Point [x y])
16:00	clojurebot	sandbox.Point
16:00	bbloom	,(.getBasis (-> (Point. 5 10) class))
16:00	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getBasis for class java.lang.Class>
16:01	bbloom	hmm that makes sense
16:01	bbloom	,(.getBasis (Point. 5 10))
16:01	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getBasis for class sandbox.Point>
16:01	amalloy	bbloom: you have to use the reflector
16:01	jimjams	amalloy: I want to write a macro that pulls the basis keys out automatically
16:01	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, i figured
16:01	amalloy	jimjams: why?
16:02	jimjams	amalloy: I've got some conversion methods on our internal datatypes that operate on all of their fields in a uniform way.
16:03	jimjams	amalloy: so far I've copied the vector of fields by hand, but having a general (and less prone to inconsistancies) way to access all of the fields names will make everything easier to work with
16:04	bbloom	please forgive the following spam:
16:04	bbloom	,(import '[clojure.lang Reflector])
16:04	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Reflector
16:04	bbloom	,(defn static-invoke [class member & args] (if (zero? (count args)) (try (Reflector/getStaticField class member) (catch Exception e (Reflector/invokeStaticMethod class member clojure.lang.RT/EMPTY_ARRAY))) (Reflector/invokeStaticMethod class member (object-array args))))
16:04	clojurebot	bbloom: Excuse me?
16:04	bbloom	,(defn staticfn [class member] (fn [& args] (apply static-invoke class member args)))
16:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: static-invoke in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:04	bbloom	,(deftype Point [x y])
16:04	clojurebot	sandbox.Point
16:04	bbloom	,(let [p (Point. 5 10)] ((staticfn (class p) "getBasis")))
16:04	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'sandbox/staticfn>
16:04	bbloom	aw, executed in the wrong order
16:05	llasram	,(try "exceptions?" (catch Exception _ "nope."))
16:05	clojurebot	llasram: It's greek to me.
16:06	llasram	You're the best, clojurebot
16:06	jimjams	bbloom: I see where you're going with that though! Thanks
16:07	bbloom	Raynes: there does not appear to be a button any more to save my paste...
16:07	jimjams	It's crazy that you've gotta jump through so many hoops to talk to static functions, but I guess that's the price you pay for such clean interop elsewhere.
16:07	bbloom	jimjams: https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/1636c60c176f992cb60c
16:07	amalloy	bbloom: that's how he's going to cut down on paste inflation
16:08	amalloy	jimjams: well, static functions are easy
16:08	amalloy	static functions when you don't even know what class you want to call them on? that's not as easy
16:08	amalloy	you have to do the same thing in java
16:08	bbloom	jimjams: it's not a price of clean interop, it's a price of interop that yields efficient & predictable bytecode
16:08	jimjams	Good points.
16:08	bbloom	jimjams: java doesn't have a non-reflection based mechanism for dynamically dispatching static methods
16:10	jimjams	I feel like it'd help a bunch to sit and digest how interop really happens between java and clojure at some point.
16:11	jimjams	Thanks for the pointers and gist though! <3 <3 <3
16:12	bbloom	jimjams: i recommend the src to tools.analyzer and tools.emitter.jvm for precisely how clojure translates to jvm intrinsics
16:14	jimjams	These look wicked. Bookmarked!
16:16	bizniz98	Using archiva with clojure project...so have ~/.lein/profiles.clj for archiva creds. How would this translate to Jenkins?
16:17	technomancy	gtrak: pair.io used the v2 github API
16:17	technomancy	but it was also way more complicated
16:18	technomancy	since it had to do the oauth dance to get access to your repos
16:18	gtrak	ah
16:18	gtrak	I already figured out the oauth bit in a test-project, it wasn't that bad.
16:18	technomancy	gtrak: about 10x more code
16:19	gtrak	but syme doesn't really need it. Not sure I'd want it to be more git-project-centric than it already is?
16:19	technomancy	gtrak: right now it's OSS-only
16:19	technomancy	which is sort of by design, sort of because I'm lazy
16:19	gtrak	ah, it won't work on private repos? that kinda sucks.
16:19	technomancy	haven't decided which yet =)
16:19	technomancy	gtrak: you can use it for private repos; you just have to clone by hand
16:20	gtrak	ah, right.
16:20	technomancy	because I don't want to get in the business of storing anything sensitive
16:20	gtrak	yea, that's fine.
16:20	technomancy	which given how much attention I've paid to the project has absolutely turned out to be the right choice =)
16:20	gtrak	just bringing up the ec2 instance and some helpful hints on tmux was enough for me to feel it's useful :-)
16:21	technomancy	yeah, and setting up the pubkeys by magic
16:21	gtrak	and the .symerc bit, that's nice.
16:21	gtrak	yea
16:21	technomancy	it's useful for seajure
16:41	PigDude	is there an idiom for applying a function to the first argument, as in a common multimethod dispatch function?
16:42	PigDude	now i have a higher-order fyunction 'apply-first-arg' that returns a function doing this
16:43	gtrak	partial?
16:43	PigDude	i don't see how partials are used for this
16:43	gtrak	,((partial + (inc 1)) 2)
16:43	clojurebot	4
16:43	PigDude	right
16:43	bbloom	PigDude: do you want double type-based dispatch?
16:44	PigDude	bbloom: well i hvae a bunch of methods that dispatch based on the first arg
16:44	bbloom	PigDude: use defmulti unless you know for sure you want defprotocol
16:44	PigDude	bbloom: but they have different arities in different method implementations even, so a flexible dispatch function would accept any number of arguments and dispatch from the first one
16:44	PigDude	bbloom: yea,i'm using multimethods now
16:45	bbloom	PigDude: multimethods can trivially be made variadic
16:45	PigDude	here's my code:
16:45	bbloom	(defmulti foo (fn [x & args] (:some-key x)))
16:47	PigDude	bbloom: http://www.bpaste.net/show/fJdS6ymXQMJurEyfgmUD/
16:47	PigDude	bbloom: does this look reasonable? i felt like maybe my higher-order function is reinventing some wheel, or there is a different idiom for common dispatch function to variadic MMs
16:48	PigDude	bbloom: maybe the idiom is #(f %1) ...
16:48	PigDude	rather %)
16:48	bbloom	PigDude: yeah, the idiom is to just create an inline anon fn
16:48	PigDude	ok thanks
16:49	PigDude	i forgot about # :)
16:49	bbloom	also, this may be a case where you actually do want a protocol
16:50	PigDude	bbloom: it probably is one, but i was advised to start w/ a MM for now
16:50	PigDude	bbloom: (this is my first clojure project at a new position)
16:50	PigDude	bbloom: so i think it will probably become a protocol
16:50	bbloom	PigDude: the reason for that advice is b/c multimethods are more flexible and easier to work with
16:51	bbloom	PigDude: but that doesn't mean OOP ideas are 100% bad, so if you're doing something mutable like representing an interface to an external service, then it makes sense to do somewhat traditional OOP things
16:51	bbloom	like defining an interface aka (sorta) a protocol
16:51	PigDude	makes sense
17:05	michaelr525	hello
17:06	gopat	Hello michaelr525
17:07	gopat	Hehe.
17:07	gopat	Don't try this at home
17:07	michaelr525	what's so funny tonight?
17:07	gopat	just evaulated (range) in a repl
17:07	michaelr525	on which laptop?
17:08	gopat	rMBP13"
17:08	gopat	java kernel panic
17:08	michaelr525	oh
17:08	gopat	never turbo boosted to 450% before :D
17:09	michaelr525	i'm looking to buy a good laptop for work..
17:10	michaelr525	everything i see on the market today is disappointing
17:10	gopat	new macbook airs just out
17:10	amalloy	gopat: (pmap inc (range)) or bust
17:10	michaelr525	i'm not familiar with macbooks
17:10	michaelr525	why would anyone buy a macbook?
17:11	amalloy	michaelr525: as a linux user, i bought a thinkpad somewhat recently. i'd recommend you instead get a macbook and install linux on it; the hardware is so much better
17:11	michaelr525	amalloy: are you serious?
17:11	michaelr525	amalloy: the new thinkpads are really disappointing, that's w2hat I'm talking about
17:12	turbofail	linux on a macbook often has driver issues though
17:12	cbp	Maybe one of those new dell precision laptops?
17:12	cbp	they look pretty good
17:12	cbp	no idea if you can run linux on them though
17:12	dbasch	turbofail: linux on a macbook? barf
17:12	michaelr525	cbp: i don't like that they don't have page up/down home/end buttons
17:12	technomancy	glossy screens =(
17:13	technomancy	such a tragedy
17:13	michaelr525	yeah, that's a problem I live in a sunny country :)
17:13	turbofail	also the battery life will typically be dramatically worse
17:13	cbp	pft who uses the laptop's keyboard anyway :-P
17:14	michaelr525	technomancy: what laptop are you working one?
17:14	michaelr525	one
17:14	michaelr525	on
17:14	michaelr525	dammit
17:15	stompyj	bitemyerrors twitter profile pic is a clojure stacktrace? haha, he truly is on a mission
17:15	yeoj___	is there anyway for my leiningen/clojure program to tell if i'm running via script or not? I have error conditions that call System/exit and it's annoynig to have to restart my repl constantly.
17:15	technomancy	michaelr525: I'm currently on a thinkpad x200s; hoping to upgrade to a novena soon
17:16	michaelr525	novena.. let me gooogle that
17:17	justin_smith	if you have a macbook budget, consider a system76 computer with ubuntu preinstalled, I like mine
17:17	technomancy	http://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop
17:18	justin_smith	yeoj___: you could have a function that decides whether to exit or to print a stack trace, and delegate to that
17:18	justin_smith	yeoj___: it could just be a question of checking if the :development profile is active
17:18	yeoj___	justin_smith: ahh, ok thats what i was missing. thanks.
17:21	justin_smith	yeoj___: consider using System/setProperty and System/getProperty to check for which behavior should be used
17:21	yeoj___	justin_smith: ok thank you i'll look into it.
17:21	michaelr525	technomancy: weird stuff
17:21	justin_smith	or something more elaborate like environ
17:22	technomancy	weird is good
17:22	technomancy	most of the time
17:23	nullptr`	(note that technomancy also built his own keyboard)
17:23	nullptr`	<-- lazier than that
17:23	justin_smith	technomancy: so you don't use anything that relies on x86 support? I actually kind of like the idea of an ARM desktop
17:23	technomancy	justin_smith: I play minecraft with my kids
17:23	technomancy	but I'm not getting rid of my thinkpad
17:24	justin_smith	ahh, that makes sense
17:24	justin_smith	I'll assume there is a good JVM / JDK for ARM
17:25	technomancy	it's kinda crap actually
17:25	justin_smith	I was reading recently that there is a tradeoff where more power is required for CISC while RISC can't use cache as efficiently
17:25	technomancy	but the novena is still nearly a year away from shipping
17:25	technomancy	and the code to improve the JIT has been written, it just hasn't landed in openjdk yet
17:26	justin_smith	oh, that's too bad
17:26	justin_smith	maybe by then openjdk for ARM will get better, heh
17:26	technomancy	currently on arm racket smokes openjdk
17:28	justin_smith	well that's cool, let's just switch to racket then
17:29	michaelr525	hmm
17:29	Frozenlock	How about a clojure implementation on racket?
17:30	technomancy	https://github.com/greghendershott/rackjure <- pretty cool apart from the name
17:30	Frozenlock	implement clojure on all the things!
17:30	Frozenlock	Interesting
17:30	technomancy	it's not clojure exactly so much as "all the things that someone who likes clojure is likely to miss when using racket"
17:31	technomancy	which isn't as much as you'd expect
17:31	Frozenlock	I'd really like a Clojure where you don't have to know the underlying platform
17:31	Frozenlock	technomancy: you like Racket?
17:31	technomancy	Frozenlock: tons
17:31	technomancy	well
17:32	technomancy	I haven't used it tons, but I mostly like it, except for a few problems that rackjure fixes.
17:32	Frozenlock	I tried it a few years ago. Can't even remember what I thought of it :-/
17:32	technomancy	the literature and usability are both excellent, possibly unrivaled
17:33	Frozenlock	Are you able to do 'real' things?
17:33	technomancy	sure
17:33	Frozenlock	I remember drRacket being kind of neat
17:33	amalloy	as a being of pure energy, technomancy can only do real things through a programming language
17:34	justin_smith	LOL
17:44	justin_smith	that "pure energy" thing certainly explians his copious projects and oss contributions
17:44	Frozenlock	Yeah, it rivals with my theory of "there's two of them.."
17:45	zerokarmaleft	how do you get a non-namespaced symbol for a var?
17:46	zerokarmaleft	or do I just need to resort to string-munging?
17:46	amalloy	&(doc name)?
17:46	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns the name String of a string, symbol or keyword."
17:47	justin_smith	,(name #'clojure.core/+) zerokarmaleft:
17:47	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named>
17:47	justin_smith	race condition!
17:47	justin_smith	err
17:47	justin_smith	,(name 'clojure.core/+) zerokarmaleft:
17:47	clojurebot	"+"
17:47	amalloy	well, i wasn't gonna do it wrong, justin_smith :)
17:47	amalloy	so it's not quite a race
17:47	cbp	o snap
17:47	justin_smith	lol
17:47	justin_smith	I have an excuse, post employment drinking
17:47	Frozenlock	,(symbol (name 'clojure.core/+))
17:47	clojurebot	+
17:47	cbp	=(
17:48	amalloy	,(symbol (name (:name (meta #'+))))
17:48	clojurebot	+
17:48	zerokarmaleft	ah, thanks
17:48	nullptr`	post employment as in "unemployed", or post employment as in "after work"? those involve different levels of drinking...
17:48	justin_smith	nullptr`: laid off
17:49	nullptr`	i guess that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the circumstances -- hopefully the former in yours!
17:50	justin_smith	nullptr`: I'll figure it out when I'm sober, probably next month
17:50	justin_smith	:)
18:02	greghendershott	technomancy: The name resulted from about 40 milliseconds of careful consideration. I'm open to suggestions. :)
18:03	amalloy	greghendershott: just call it lein-ironic-rackjure
18:05	justin_smith	greghendershott: is the lack of [] because racket already has good associative immutable sequence support?
18:07	technomancy	greghendershott: well on the bright side it does what it says on the tin.
18:07	technomancy	people in racket-lang probably aren't as tired of *jure pins as we are here
18:07	greghendershott	justin_smith: The lack of any X is simply due to no one, so far, missing X enough to submit a pull request.
18:07	amalloy	i would gladly add a *jure pin to my pin collection
18:08	greghendershott	technomancy: Ah I see. Sorry. Didn't mean for it to be annoying.
18:08	greghendershott	Maybe I should rename it Clacket.
18:08	technomancy	greghendershott: heh, no it's more of an inside joke at this point
18:10	technomancy	what is up with hash-tables not being functions in regular racket though
18:10	technomancy	it is just baffling
18:10	technomancy	these literally have more in common with mathematical functions than procedures do.
18:10	technomancy	domain -> range. boom.
18:17	justin_smith	(inc clacket)
18:17	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:17	justin_smith	greghendershott: after looking a little deeper, it seems a hash in racket can be an associative vector? maybe that addresses my concern
18:19	technomancy	iirc racket vectors only support efficient lookup, not changes
18:20	scape_	racket has immutable and mutable vectors i think, possibly different implementations
18:21	greghendershott	justin_smith: Maybe I'm understanding you backwards, but, there's a `dictionary` generic of which hashes, lists, and vectors are examples: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/dicts.html
18:28	scape_	how could I get the index of the results from something like: (filter even? (range 20))
18:28	justin_smith	greghendershott: yeah, I'd have to get my hands dirty and see how it really compares, but looks cool
18:29	amalloy	&(doc keep-indexed)
18:29	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
18:29	scape_	or do I need to then iterate the list and compare?
18:29	scape_	ah ok let me read up thanks
18:32	scape_	great, thx amalloy
18:56	akhudek	I’m profiling a clojurescript app and I’m finding that 80% of the time is in garbage collection. Has anyone encountered this or have an idea what can cause it?
18:57	coventry	The warning that the function passed to keep-indexed must be free of side-effects seems a little strange. Why warn there but not for map or every-pred?
18:58	amalloy	coventry: that warning appears in all sorts of weird and inconsistent places
18:59	scape_	working with a java array, I noticed using arraycopy is significantly faster than running aset over the array. why is this?
19:00	TravisD	Does anyone know if there is a project to get a clojure language kernel for ipython?
19:01	dbasch	scape_: with aset, you’re looking up an entry in the array every time
19:02	amalloy	scape_: System/arraycopy is implemented in native code, inside the jvm
19:02	dbasch	scape_: arraycopy obviously keeps a pointer to the current position
19:02	coventry	TravisD: I know of someone who's working on one, but it appears it's not public yet.
19:02	TravisD	coventry: Sounds cool. Encourage them to make it public :)
19:03	coventry	TravisD: Are you aware of kovasb's Session?
19:03	amalloy	but also you might be doing outrageously slow things, like using reflection to discover the type of the array
19:03	scape_	well i have an array that I want to reset basically, but not necessarily the entire array nor is it contiguous
19:03	TravisD	coventry: looks like I've visited the github page
19:04	scape_	maybe i'll check for contiguous sections that I can use arraycopy on
19:13	amalloy	huh. i just found this in my code: (-> {:x 1 :y 2} (assoc :z 3))
19:28	akhudek	amalloy: looks like a tutorial
19:32	hyPiRion	amalloy: must be a bad day or long ago
19:34	pdk	is clojure able to fold that at compile time
19:34	dbasch	amalloy: aset has to do a pointer lookup every time, it could never compete with a properly implemented memory copy of an array
19:34	amalloy	hyPiRion: you forgot the most common reason absurd-looking code gets written: the simplest possible transformation when something changes. like i think i had (-> {:x ... :y ...} (update-in [:x] assoc :z 3)), and then realized i needed z at the top level rather than under x
19:35	amalloy	dbasch: well, i already said that
19:35	amalloy	but i also pointed out he could be making it a thousand times slower by doing other things wrong
19:37	scape_	amalloy: it's an object array of promises: this is the slower way I was resetting it-- (doseq [n rqi] (aset q n (promise))), which i where I narrowed down the slowdown
19:38	amalloy	right, and does clojure know it's an object array? or are you making it do reflection every time you call aset?
19:39	scape_	I don't know, which I assume means probably it's figuring it out each time
19:39	scape_	should I type hint this?
19:39	scape_	I do have reflection warn on, let me rerun this from the top
19:40	scape_	yes, reflection warnings
19:40	amalloy	(aset ^objects q n (promise))
19:41	eflynn	is it possible to fetch a dependency in the repl?
19:41	scape_	thanks, i'll give that a go
19:42	scape_	considerably faster, almost as fast as arraycopy now
19:42	scape_	thanks amalloy
19:42	dbasch	scape_: btw, isn’t that just aclone?
19:43	amalloy	dbasch: errrrr, not at all like aclone?
19:43	dbasch	amalloy: I don’t understand what it has to do with arraycopy then
19:44	amalloy	he doesn't really want to do arraycopy. he just wants to change array values and didn't understand how arraycopy could be so much faster than using aset
19:44	dbasch	amalloy: ah, ok
19:44	scape_	well I assumed why, the System part clued me in :)
19:51	Si_	anyone here ever play around with caribou? https://github.com/caribou/caribou
19:51	coventry	justin_smith has used it extensively, probably wrote parts of it.
19:52	justin_smith	coventry: I'm the #2 contributer
19:52	justin_smith	Si_: any specific question?
19:52	dbasch	amalloy, scape_ : no matter what you do, arraycopy would be orders of magnitude faster than using aset
19:54	ivan	has anyone made AOT'ed Clojure code work on RoboVM? RoboVM appears very unhappy with clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader.defineClass
19:54	ivan	any suggestions on stripping out Clojure's custom classloader?
19:55	eflynn	how do you parse xml with clojure
19:55	Si_	justin_smith: not in particular, i'm new to clojure and looking for a web framework that would be comparable to flask. would you suggest caribou or something like luminus?
19:56	scape_	try http-kit and enlive or similar
19:57	ivan	Raynes: the submit button on refheap appears to be missing
19:58	dbasch	eflynn: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml/parse
20:03	amalloy	ivan: he's trying to cut down on paste inflation by not allowing anyone to paste anything ever
20:04	amalloy	seriously though, obviously that's broken, but ctrl-enter works to submit while you wait for Raynes to figure it out
20:05	ivan	thanks
20:05	justin_smith	Si_: do you want maps of clojure data following a specific schema persisted in a db? if so caribou integrates this nicely and has a web based admin for the data, if not using http-kit / ring directly is likely easier
20:06	justin_smith	Si_: also caribou uses the db to define pages, which may or may not be useful to you (other approaches typically use code)
20:07	justin_smith	Si_: these features are present because we developed caribou for usage in a situation where the frontend developers did not use clojure, and we wanted them to be able to define new pages / data models as they needed
20:07	ivan	so I think my (ns ... :gen-class [namespace] is the only thing calling defineClass which is the thing I can't call on RoboVM, but I need this :gen-class to generate the class that I'm running
20:08	ivan	is there some way to get the class but not run genclass stuff at runtime?
20:08	dbasch	ivan: also, if you’re using emacs you can submit directly with this https://github.com/Raynes/refheap.el
20:18	Si_	justin_smith: thanks, it looks pretty cool. good to know its being actively developed.
20:28	amalloy	so dbasch, i thought it would be interesting to benchmark System/arraycopy vs copying with aget/aset
20:29	dbasch	amalloy: how did it turn out?
20:29	amalloy	https://www.refheap.com/85060 suggests it's around twice as fast, certainly not "orders of magnitude"
20:29	amalloy	the jit is, after all, pretty good
20:39	dbasch	amalloy: indeed, that is surprisingly good
20:39	amalloy	dbasch: another point of view is that doing it in the vm is surprisingly bad, of course
20:39	amalloy	since it can't just do a plain memory copy - there's a lot of extra work to do in java compared to c
20:40	amalloy	making sure the garbage collector knows about all your moved objects, and so on
21:02	TravisD	I guess a factor of 2 is an order of magnitude, without any other information :P
21:02	TravisD	</pedantry>
21:04	dbasch	amalloy_: try it with bytes instead of objects
21:04	dbasch	TravisD: my guess would have been 10x at least, so I concede amalloy was right on that
21:05	TravisD	Hehe, yeah, I was just pointing out the silly fact that it depends on how you're counting your orders
21:14	dbasch	TravisD: with an array of objects I get the same results as amalloy, but with a random byte array I get a 40x difference
21:14	TravisD	dbasch: I wasn't really following the conversation :) The problem is to clear an array of some length?
21:16	dbasch	no, it’s to copy arrays using either System/arracopy or aset in a loop
21:16	TravisD	ah
21:16	dbasch	I had guessed that arraycopy would be orders of magnitude faster in general, it turns out that it’s only 2x as fast for objects
21:17	dbasch	I’m trying the special case of bytes and see a difference of 40x though
21:17	amalloy	i can believe it for bytes, i suppose. you're hinting as ^bytes, i presume?
21:17	dbasch	I assume that in that case it’s just a memcpy
21:17	dbasch	amalloy: of course
21:17	TravisD	This slowdown comes entirely from running on the JVM?
21:18	dbasch	TravisD: I assume it’s the different optimizations the JIT can do with what it knows
21:18	TravisD	ah, yeah
21:22	amalloy	dbasch: a fair bit of spelunking through the jdk source tells me that for byte[] it is indeed just a memmove
21:25	amalloy	for int[] it looks like a reimplementation of memmove to preseve java's stronger atomicity guarantees which might be violated if memmove were used instead
21:25	dbasch	amalloy: and for generic object without any further knowledge you’d have to dereference pointers
21:26	amalloy	i'm not sure i follow
21:26	dbasch	amalloy: you don’t know that they are all the same type, so you cannot compute the size for one and assume they are all the same
21:27	dbasch	although you’re copying pointers, never mind
21:27	amalloy	right
21:32	Jaood	amalloy_: do you go down to java much for performance reasons?
21:57	gfredericks	this tools.nrepl middleware-sorting code is impenetrable
21:57	gfredericks	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/middleware.clj#L73-129
21:58	gfredericks	at the moment I'm in the middle of conj-sorted trying to figure out what on earth
22:02	gfredericks	(is this not what the rest of you do on a friday night??)
22:05	technomancy	gfredericks: nope too busy debugging my keyboard
22:06	gfredericks	nerd.
22:15	amalloy	Jaood: never
22:16	amalloy	i write java if the project is already written in java, or if i need to declare an interface or something so that java users can consume objects i build from clojure more easily
22:39	gfredericks	I think I literally have ghosts in my machine.
22:39	gfredericks	I have found a reproducible case where changing the whitespace in my code changes the result.
22:39	hiredman	norton ghosts?
22:39	TravisD	mmh, I need to watch Ghost in the Shell.
22:41	gfredericks	maybe it is haunted by cemerick
22:41	gfredericks	oh nevermind it stopped reproducing.
22:42	gfredericks	I suppose it could be a cider bug
22:45	amalloy	gfredericks: probably a failure that's random, and your pattern-hungry human mind associated it with whitespace changes
22:46	gfredericks	I went back and forth three or four times
22:47	gfredericks	I've been seeing spook the whole time I've been debugging this damn code, that was just the height of it
23:13	gfredericks	turns out the thing is jvm-level nondeterministic
23:13	gfredericks	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/NREPL-53
23:16	amalloy	why is it right for foo to be last?
23:20	gfredericks	last means being first in line to handle messages
23:20	gfredericks	well actually
23:20	gfredericks	foo just has to be after session
23:20	gfredericks	oh snap good point I should check that it does come before in the false cases
23:21	gfredericks	I had that behavior at the repl, I just neglected to output that much information
23:21	gfredericks	(in the code I actually posted)
23:21	gfredericks	well actually
23:22	gfredericks	since bar requires session
23:22	gfredericks	I think [bar session foo] is the only sensible ordering
23:22	gfredericks	but pr-values might make its way in there too so I should still check
23:23	amalloy	i don't understand the difference between requires/expects. those words are practically synonyms
23:23	gfredericks	I know!
23:23	gfredericks	so confusing
23:24	gfredericks	requires means "I expect this middleware/operation has already touched the message by the time I get to it"
23:24	gfredericks	expects means the opposite
23:24	gfredericks	(I expect this will get handled in the future)
23:24	gfredericks	e.g., if you want to write a middleware to transform eval messages before they get evaled
23:24	gfredericks	you would :expects #{"eval"}
23:25	gfredericks	the more correct code is also nondeterministic
23:25	gfredericks	I'll update the ticket shortly
23:31	gfredericks	amalloy: updated ticket
23:31	gfredericks	would be interested in somebody else corroborating the nondeterminism
23:32	amalloy	gfredericks: is it possible that nrepl is just choosing an ordering at random because it can't satisfy all requirements? like, "eval" is required but not present
23:33	gfredericks	I don't think it's explicitly random
23:33	gfredericks	I didn't see any shuffling in the code
23:33	gfredericks	it might be implicit due to var hash orderings
23:34	amalloy	right
23:34	gfredericks	the absence of eval is an interesting theory though
23:34	amalloy	s/at random/arbitrarily
23:35	gfredericks	without eval it's all true
23:37	gfredericks	BUT
23:37	gfredericks	if I add back eval _and_ a middleware that handles eval
23:37	gfredericks	it's all false.
23:37	amalloy	clojurebot: it's \|all\| false
23:37	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
23:38	gfredericks	clojurebot: all is not \|a\| verb
23:38	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
23:40	gfredericks	okay I added that as a comment and now I must to bed
23:56	TravisD	Would it be possible to add metadata to some set of non-pure functions, and then to propagate that impurity metadata to all functions calling the non-pure ones, and so on?
23:58	amalloy	TravisD: is map pure?
23:58	TravisD	ah, right, high order functions
23:58	TravisD	I guess it depends on its arguments :(