#clojure – 2014-04-22

2014-04-22

00:41	patrickod	I'm trying to use cemerick/friend for the first time to protect a small set of resources, specifically using it's interactive-form workflow
00:43	patrickod	I have a map of users in the form that friend expects, but when friend/authenticated runs it gives an error: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.String
00:43	patrickod	in the interactive-form-redirect method
00:44	patrickod	s/interactive-form/interactive-login
00:46	dbasch	patrickod: can you refheap your code?
00:47	patrickod	refheap? new to clojure so unsure what this means.
00:47	dbasch	https://www.refheap.com/
00:49	patrickod	cool. I'll get that in a second
00:56	patrickod	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/c68214623cb1ae122f1c
00:59	dbasch	I meant the code, otherwise who knows what’s going on :)
01:01	beamso	hsa the login-uri been configured as a vector rather than a string?
01:01	beamso	*has
01:02	patrickod	login-uri is a string.
01:07	patrickod	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/aa3cd2c198200d6e79e9
01:08	patrickod	admins-for-login gives back a map of {"username" {:username "username" :password "bcrypted-password"}}
01:11	dbasch	why are you passing (admins-for-login) instead of admins-for-login ?
01:11	dbasch	never mind
01:20	dbasch	I would wrap everything in a handler that prints the requests and responses for debugging
01:38	john_s	does anyone else find the behavior of core.async channel filters counterintuitive? every time i create a filtered channel, it consumes everything up to and including the first item for which the predicate is true.
01:40	john_s	e.g. https://gist.github.com/johnswanson/11166363
01:42	john_s	i guess that is just the way channels work, you can't see if a value passes without pulling it off.
01:43	trap_exit	what's a good profiler for javascript code generated by cljs?
01:59	haole	is there an easy way to compare two lists discarding a few items? like:
02:00	haole	one list has '(1 1 0 1) and the other '(1 1 1 1)
02:00	haole	I want them to be considered the same, as if I could have a wildcard in the = function
02:00	haole	'(1 1 _ 1)
02:01	dbasch	haole: how do you decide what items to discard?
02:01	dbasch	haole: or how many?
02:03	haole	dbasch: that's what I'm trying to figure out... using a format string, maybe, or some other way
02:03	luxbock	is there any way to get a string value out of a java.io.PrintWriter without first writing it to a file?
02:04	beamso	StringWriter?
02:05	luxbock	sorry I'm not very good with Java, how would I use that?
02:06	beamso	actually, it was a bit of a silly suggestion. you don't instantiate the printwriter, correct?
02:06	luxbock	yeah
02:06	luxbock	I have a Java class that's meant to be used as a CLI app, so the public method it offers (main), outputs to PrintWriter(System.out) and then exits, and I'd like to use its output without having my program exit
02:07	luxbock	which I guess I could do by using java.sh, but I discovered ironh for Clojure which allows me to call private methods/constructors via reflection
02:07	beamso	can you change the java class?
02:08	luxbock	but the method I need to call still uses PrintWriter
02:08	luxbock	hmm, I suppose I could, it's a class file in a .jar
02:08	luxbock	that I'm peeking into through a decompiler
02:09	luxbock	so yeah I think it would be possible but probably not the easiest thing to do
02:09	beamso	you can use system.out to set a printstream
02:10	beamso	but that sets it for everything, which may or may not be nasty
02:11	luxbock	I could just give it a PrintWriter and a temp file that I then read and destroy, since this is just a personal project
02:12	beamso	you can instantiate the printwriter with a bytearrayoutputstream, then call tostring on the bytearrayoutputstream
02:13	luxbock	ah, that sounds great, I'll try it out
02:17	dbasch	haole: if you care about the number of equal values but not the position, it’s trivial
02:17	dbasch	haole: and if not, it’s still pretty easy
02:17	dbasch	,(map = [1 2 3 4] [1 2 3 5])
02:17	clojurebot	(true true true false)
02:18	dbasch	haole: you’d need a “mask” list to compare that output
02:18	luxbock	beamso: works fine, thanks :)
02:18	beamso	not a problem
02:48	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: yo
02:48	bitemyapp	nevermind, tracked you down
02:50	devn	anyone have an example of using map<, map>, etc. in core.async?
02:50	devn	I can't seem to find anything outside of the docs
02:55	danlamanna	for some reason my compiled jar (lein uberjar) doesn't recognize command line arguments (using tools.cli) as lein run does.
03:49	nonuby	if there a way to (easily) test if such namespace exists when doing something like (doseq [plugin plugins] (require (symbol plugin)))? rather than a filenotfoundexception
03:52	guns	nonuby: It's not a bad way to do it; you'd have to search the classpath yourself otherwise. Just wrap in a try/catch
04:02	dbasch	,(all-ns)
04:02	clojurebot	(#<Namespace clojure.uuid> #<Namespace user> #<Namespace clojure.core> #<Namespace sandbox> #<Namespace clojure.repl> ...)
04:02	dbasch	,(count (all-ns))
04:02	clojurebot	9
04:45	nonuby	is there anyway to emulate http://nodejs.org/api/domain.html when using clojure 1.6/core.async/http-kit rather than explicitly passing the context along
04:51	ddellacosta	nonuby: I'm having a hard time understanding what that does--does it directly map to the url domain?
04:52	ddellacosta	nonuby: if a problem occurs in any given route matching a domain, you can perform the same action, is that it?
04:54	nonuby	no. essentially it allows you to pass context along a chain of async operations (without explicitly passing it into a callback each time), kind of like a thread-locals that work across multiple threads - so if you have a web request that calls a database that then calls a url you have a the original details of the request (if you stuffed it in a domain on entry)
04:55	ddellacosta	nonuby: huh, and are you using ring in Clojure?
04:56	nonuby	just thinking out loud at the moment, but probably not ring as will have a thread hanging about whilst any other dependent async operations complete, http-kit server maybe
04:57	ddellacosta	nonuby: I see, so tell me if this is wrong: you're building something that has asynchronous processing based on a request, but you need to hold onto the original request for various reasons
04:58	ddellacosta	nonuby: ...and get it back at some point during the asynchronous processing thread's lifespan
04:58	nonuby	ddellacosta, very close, i want to hold a map of the original request, because as part of high level error handler and logging middleware (json logging), I want to pluck the request context out as that what makes any errors/warning relevant
05:00	ddellacosta	nonuby: so, is the request going to get handled asynchronously, or do you just want your high-level error handler/logger to be asynchronous? I don't quite follow
05:00	AeroNotix	ring-middleware?
05:01	nonuby	if using thread per request I would just write (myapi/set-context! { :req ring req }) at the entry point of the request and then shove it into a thread local var, do my database stuff and other IO, and then in the error handler / logging middleware I could do (my-api/get-context) but if I say scrape a URL on a request using http-kit and the exception occur in the http-kit client callback this on a different thread thus get-context would be nil
05:03	ddellacosta	ah, sorry, I thought you were using http-kit server, not client, my mistake
06:13	antelocm	hi
06:14	antelocm	I'm looking for help developing Clojure GUIs
06:15	antelocm	anything like React/Om, but with JavaFX components
06:15	clgv	antelocm: in swing? do you know "seesaw"?
06:15	antelocm	any ideas?
06:15	clgv	oh ok
06:15	antelocm	based on FRP, if possible
06:15	clgv	I think some people started clojure libs for javafx but I dont recall the named.
06:16	clgv	*names
06:16	antelocm	yeah, had a look at them
06:16	antelocm	but they are not very idiomatic
06:18	clgv	you need javafx for legacy reasons or since there are existing components for specialized tasks?
06:20	antelocm	actually, I'm learning Clojure, so I thought JavaFX is the best for trying a modern UI
06:22	antelocm	but I'd like to try FRP too
06:23	antelocm	and there's clojurescript's Om
06:24	antelocm	so I'm looking for something Om-like, but with JavaFX components
06:25	clgv	ok. I didnt here of any library trying that combination on the mailing list so far...
06:30	locks	maybe start with Om ;P
06:30	clgv	*hear
06:32	antelocm	ok, will try that, thx ;)
06:33	antelocm	bye :)
06:36	khushildep	Hey chaps - I’m trying to follow the guide at http://marmalade-repo.org but when I package-list-packages it can’t seem to find the repo? I can browse to it normally...
06:47	phillord	@khushildep what are you expecting to see? You should just got a longer list of packages
06:48	khushildep	Yeah I did but the it doesn’t seem to want to connec to marmalade
06:50	phillord	did you do M-x package-refresh-package
06:51	phillord	M-x package-refresh-package-contents sorry
06:51	phillord	what does C-hv package-archives show you?
06:58	khushildep	[No Match]
06:58	khushildep	I’m sorry I’m an emacs noob - what does C mean?
06:59	Bronsa	khushildep: ctrl
06:59	phillord	Ctrl
07:00	clgv	does "quil" support scrollbars for drawings that do not fit the screen?
07:00	phillord	You can do "help->Describe->Describe Variable" instead if you prefer
07:01	khushildep	package-archives is a variable defined in `package.el'.
07:01	khushildep	Its value is (("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/")
07:01	khushildep	("gnu" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/"))
07:03	phillord	Okay, now Options->Manage Emacs Packages
07:03	phillord	do you see a list of packages?
07:04	phillord	if so, then Package -> refresh package list
07:05	phillord	If you see things like "abl-mode, ac-geiser, ac-slime" then you have added marmalade and it's all working!
07:06	phillord	If it's not all working then you should have got a crash somewhere!
07:06	nbeloglazov	clgv: no, it doesn't
07:07	khushildep	how would I debug that crash?
07:09	clgv	nbeloglazov: :(
07:16	phillord	well, you need to describe it
07:16	phillord	do you have any thing inyour messages buffer -- that normally helps
07:17	nbeloglazov	clgv: you can implement your own "scrolling" by dragging mouse using translate function, I think.
07:18	clojurenoob	hey guys, I'm using assoc to add a value from one map to another map... when I do so, my keys/values lose their double quotes and I get 'Map literal must contain an even number of forms Util.java:221... any ideas ?
07:19	AimHere	clojurebot, you got a minimal code example exhibiting the bug?
07:19	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
07:20	AimHere	sorry, clojurenoob I mean
07:20	AimHere	clojurenoob, Also, merge-with is a handy function for these kinds of problems
07:20	clojurenoob	AimHere: I will put something together and lookup your suggestion thx
07:20	AimHere	,(merge-with + {:a 3 :b 4} {:a 10 :c 15})
07:20	clojurebot	{:c 15, :b 4, :a 13}
07:22	clgv	nbeloglazov: sure, but thats a lot of overhead to manage viewports myself. I wouldnt reimplement it in swing neither ;)
07:22	clojurenoob	completely different topic.. how do I add an item to the end of a list ? (it needs to be a list in this case)
07:24	AimHere	Thing about lists is that adding things to the end is not optimal. You could put it in a list and use concat
07:25	clojurenoob	oh right... so add either a list or vector using concat
07:26	AimHere	Yeah. If you're appending to the wrong end of a list a lot, then reconsider the data structures you're using
07:26	clojurenoob	AimHere: thanks, I've got to use list in this case as its a kind of code generation thing
07:32	clgv	clojurenoob: you can use a vector to create the code and call `seq` on it afterwards
07:32	clgv	,(defmacro foo [] (seq [inc 1]))
07:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
07:32	clgv	,(foo)
07:32	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
07:32	clgv	damn bot. worked overhere...
07:33	clojurenoob	clgv: thanks, that may solve both problems will try it... was doing some code generation using '() etc all pver the place
07:33	gfredericks	,foo
07:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'sandbox/foo, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:33	gfredericks	,(foo)
07:33	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
07:34	gfredericks	,(defmacro bar [] (seq '[bar 1]))
07:34	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
07:34	gfredericks	,(bar)
07:34	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/bar>
07:34	gfredericks	,(doc bar)
07:34	clojurebot	"([]); "
07:34	gfredericks	oh of course
07:34	gfredericks	,(defmacro bar [] (seq '[inc 1]))
07:34	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
07:34	gfredericks	,(bar)
07:34	clojurebot	2
07:35	gfredericks	clgv: you were emitting a function instead of a symbol
07:35	gfredericks	that usually works though
07:36	clgv	gfredericks: oh right sorry ^^
07:37	clgv	,(list? (seq []))
07:37	clojurebot	false
07:37	clgv	,(list? (seq ['inc]))
07:37	clojurebot	false
07:39	clojurenoob	hmmm. its nicer now I'm using vectors and 'seq' at the end... but keys/values I pull out of maps are still losing the quotes ... unsure why
07:41	clgv	clojurenoob: provide a small example on refheap.com
07:41	clojurenoob	clgv: ok thanks I will try to make one
07:51	clojurenoob	clgv: weird... finding it hard to re-create when working in REPL with data I specify manually... but using the output of prior calculations in my program I am getting this problem...
07:51	clojurenoob	perhaps I am assuming the type of the output incorrectly... should be a sequence of maps
07:53	clojurenoob	hmmm... its a LazySeq I am mapping over
08:00	Pate_	waht is the difference between doall, dorun and doseq?
08:02	clgv	Pate_: the first two are very similar. doall forces evaluation on the lazy seq and returns that evaluated seq. dorun is intended for sideeffects since it foreces the lazy seq but does not return the seq havin the advantage that it does not keep a reference to the head of the sequence.
08:02	clgv	Pate_: "doseq" is "for" for side-effects
08:04	Pate_	thanks. I'm finishing up Google Code Jam 2014 and I'm using "doall" to ->> solutions (map println) to write to stdout, otherwise I don't get output. Should I be using doseq instead so I don't hold on to the seq?
08:05	Pate_	hmm no, looks like I should be using dorun.
08:06	clgv	Pate_: yes for minimal changes to your current impl you should use dorun. but usually it's more idiomatic to use doseq here
08:06	clgv	Pate_: (doseq [sol solutions] (println sol))
08:06	Pate_	excellent
08:06	clgv	Pate_: or (doseq [sol (->> what ever you need to do to create solutions)] (println sol))
08:07	Pate_	thx, clgv.
08:07	clgv	np
08:07	Pate_	parsing stdin with clojure took me a long time to get right in clojure
08:08	clgv	Pate_: are you doing the practice problems as preparation?
08:09	Pate_	yeah. was travelling during qualification round, so didn't get a chance to compete.
08:09	Pate_	busy with minesweeper problem (C) now
08:09	Pate_	will put on GitHub when done and paste link here for those interested
08:10	clgv	you got a link to that problem?
08:22	sm0ke	hmm weird om doesnt seem to work on ubuntu in chrome
08:22	sm0ke	this binary clock demo at least does not work
08:22	sm0ke	http://www.lexicallyscoped.com/demo/binclock/
08:27	Pate_	clgv, https://code.google.com/codejam/contest/2974486/dashboard#s=p2
08:44	certainty	hello everyone. I don't know much about Java but apparently I need to use a library that is in org.apache.commons.net. What does a dependency declaration for that look like in project.clj? How do I generally know what it looks like?
08:45	beamso	add [commons-net "3.3"] to your list of dependencies
08:46	certainty	beamso: thanks. How do I know that?
08:46	beamso	to quickly test it, use lein deps to download it
08:46	beamso	edit the project.clj
08:46	certainty	yepp i just did :)
08:47	beamso	so it worked?
08:47	certainty	at least it downloaded the dependencies. I'm currently trying it out at the repl.
08:48	certainty	alright, I can (import) the class I need. Thanks again :)
08:49	turbopape	I worked w java from clojure. Quite straight forward, but you have to master the different interop forms, etc....
08:49	turbopape	but one you get it, it is rewarding:)
08:50	turbopape	And setting a polyglot project with lein is quite easy too, you specify a java-source path and you can write your own java classes, quite cool !
08:52	certainty	turbopape: i try to avoid java as i don't know it well. At some point however it seems as if i will have to learn some more
08:53	turbopape	Actually I try to avoid it too certainty, but sometimes, you unfortunately must use some libraries...
08:53	turbopape	for me, I wrote a couple simple binary file writers/readers, just for the sake of speed...
08:54	turbopape	I'm not even sure that it makes sens with 1.6 using java.nio ?
08:54	certainty	hmm, if i only knew how to convert an ipaddress from dotted quad string representation to a long value in java
08:55	certainty	then I could ditch the dependency which would be great :)
08:56	turbopape	Well certainty, If there's already one efficient java class to do it, why bothering ?
08:56	certainty	because of the dependencies :)
08:56	DerGuteMoritz	certainty: see #chicken :-)
08:56	turbopape	I understand, but time to deliver outweight the deps right ?
08:57	turbopape	besides, lein manages this for you , for free !
08:57	turbopape	ah by the way, I didn't do any java before :)
08:57	turbopape	I did it thanks to Clojure (strangely enough) ...
10:09	octe	is it possible to get a reference to the constructor of a class as a function?
10:09	octe	to be able to do for example (apply Date. 1234)
10:11	octe	apparently not
10:11	clgv	Pate_: nice problem. I heard that some variant of minesweeper is NP-hard but I am not 100% sure it is that one ;)
10:12	clgv	octe: wrap it in a function
10:12	octe	yes
10:12	clgv	octe: you could also have a function that returns such a constructor wrapper function via reflection
10:12	Pate_	I did not understand the problem at first (that the recursive revalation stops at a cell when it neighbours a mine), but finally realized it after careful reading.
10:13	octe	i wanted to make a function that could call a constructor of a class with any number of arguments
10:13	octe	but that seems to require reflection
10:14	Pate_	when you think of some examples that work or not, it is easy to see that the solution must consist of overlaid rectangles of clear areas that are at least 2 high and 2 wide.
10:14	jwm	are there any mutable data libraries?
10:15	jwm	I find it hard working with maps/vectors
10:15	octe	though clojure should be doing this internally somewhere?
10:15	octe	finding the correct constructor to call
10:15	jwm	seriously miss = sometimes
10:15	octe	based upon the type of parameters
10:15	jwm	hehe
10:16	clgv	octe: yes it is using reflection to determine that
10:17	clgv	octe: if it can not determine the matching constructor and you enabled relection warnings you'll get a warning
10:17	jwm	can you pass two alters to one dosync?
10:17	jwm	I thought dosync implies (do)
10:17	octe	clgv, is there any way to reuse that logic in my code?
10:18	clgv	octe: not without implementing several functions/macros to do that.
10:18	clgv	octe: what exactly is you use case?
10:19	octe	clgv, in the same class i'm juggling 4 different date-classes (ugh)
10:20	octe	so i wanted to make cvonvience functions for creating instances of them
10:21	octe	but if it's that painful i'll just do this instead:
10:21	octe	http://pastebin.com/npz74GMN
10:21	octe	for each class
10:21	octe	unless you can alias java imports?
10:22	octe	because the issue is having to write (net.fortuna.ical4j.model.Date.) due to namespace collisions
10:22	clgv	you cant
10:22	octe	then i'll settle for the simple solution i pasted :)
10:22	clgv	but you could write a macro to generate the functions so that you only need a macro call per class
10:23	llasram	You might also find symbol-macrolet useful https://github.com/clojure/tools.macro
10:23	clgv	octe: you then need that form: (new the-class param1 param2 ...)
10:23	llasram	NB that the example in the project README is pretty weird -- it shows of specially handling of special forms, not what symbol-macrolet generally does
10:24	llasram	s,shows of,shows off,
10:25	octe	hmm, thanks :)
10:27	gfredericks	is there really not a core.async function to create a lazy seq over a channel?
10:27	clgv	nbeloglazov: ping
10:27	nbeloglazov	clgv: pong
10:28	clgv	nbeloglazov: is there an easy way in quil to get an image of a sketch that I can use as return value of a ring request?
10:28	clgv	some imagestream or similar
10:28	mdrogalis	gfredericks: I think the problem with that is that you'd have to know the entirety of the contents of the channel.
10:28	mdrogalis	There's not much a built-in concept of "end".
10:29	gfredericks	mdrogalis: what? the channel closes and it's done
10:29	gfredericks	once you get nil
10:29	gfredericks	(defn ch->lazy-seq [ch] (lazy-seq (when-let [x (a/<!! ch)] (cons x (ch->lazy-seq ch)))))
10:29	hlship	Yes, but it implies that the code reading the channel wants to block while the values are pushed into the channel.
10:30	mdrogalis	gfredericks: Yeah, I guess what I mean is, without closing it, you don't get that kind of behavior
10:30	gfredericks	hlship: yes, that's exactly what I want to use it for
10:30	mdrogalis	gfredericks: Nevermind, I thought you wanted a different use case.
10:30	nbeloglazov	clgv: not directly, but you can save image to a file via (save "myFile.png") function and then read it. Clunky, but should work.
10:31	clgv	nbeloglazov: thanks. not optimal. :/
10:31	clgv	gotta checkout the processing api
10:31	nbeloglazov	clgv: also you can get pixel array and turn it to an image, I suppose
10:37	kral	namaste
10:41	mmitchell	i'm working on a clojure web app, currently running "lein ring" in dev. Anyone know how I can get access to the :servlet-request key?
10:42	mmitchell	I've seen references to this key, but my request maps don't have it
10:59	nonuby	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/blob/master/src/taoensso/timbre.clj#L14 can someone explain why (filter identity xs) is necessary, wouldn't filter just return a lazy seq too, so what difference does it make vs just xs?
11:01	llasram	nonuby: Returns a new sequence containing only the truthy values from `xs`
11:02	gfredericks	nonuby: you might have been confusing that expr with (filter (constantly true) xs)?
11:07	nonuby	ah okay that makes sense..
11:09	nonuby	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/blob/master/src/taoensso/timbre.clj#L250 okay what about this.. this goes on to a future but yet the thread blocks @p? until the value is delivered, what would be reason for taking this approach?
11:09	nonuby	ahhh wait the comment is referring to the lookup not the future, so self documenting.. duh
11:28	jwm	(doall (remove)) is still returning a lazy seq is that normal>
11:29	bbloom	jwm: the type won't change, it will simply be cached internally
11:29	jwm	ohh ok
11:30	jwm	so I can't test on the type for nil.. just the content
11:38	Frozenlock	Is it just me, or cider-nrepl is broken? (No more autocomplete or eldoc)
11:43	hlprmnky	I’ve seen that on one project recently, but I assumed I had just done something wrong
11:43	mikerod	Frozenlock: it may have something to do with your mode hooks
11:44	mikerod	I originally had some `add-hook` specified on `cider-mode-hook`
11:44	mikerod	it seems that something here has changed, and you need to use `cider-repl-mode-hook` now
11:44	mikerod	if this is a problem you are seeing with autocomplete/eldoc not working in the Cider REPL
11:45	mikerod	I'm not sure Frozenlock is still in the IRC :P
11:45	Frozenlock	I'm back
11:45	Frozenlock	I needed to restart to remove Cider and go back to nrepl :-p
11:45	mikerod	Frozenlock: did you see my response?
11:45	Frozenlock	No :-(
11:45	mikerod	:D
11:45	clgv	what is the easiest way to use a private java method of an object in clojure?
11:46	mikerod	Frozenlock: it may have something to do with your mode hooks
11:46	mikerod	I originally had some `add-hook` specified on `cider-mode-hook`
11:46	mikerod	it seems that something here has changed, and you need to use `cider-repl-mode-hook` now
11:46	mikerod	if this is a problem you are seeing with autocomplete/eldoc not working in the Cider REPL
11:46	mikerod	just a guess though
11:46	Frozenlock	Hmm.... I do have (add-hook 'cider-mode-hook 'cider-turn-on-eldoc-mode) in my .emacs
11:46	Frozenlock	I'll leave a note
11:47	mikerod	Frozenlock: yes, that's likely the culprit
11:47	mikerod	I think Cider changed that var name
11:48	mikerod	In Emacs : `C-h v cider-mode-hook` doesn't seem to have it defined somewhere
11:48	mikerod	`C-h v cider-repl-mode-hook`is however
11:49	Frozenlock	Thanks, I wrote it in my .emacs
11:49	nbeloglazov	clgv: I think it's not different from java way - get class, get method from the class object, set accessible to true and then invoke it.
11:50	clgv	nbeloglazov: yeah, I remember a particular succinct code snippet being posted either here or on the ML
11:57	jwm	is (dosync (somefunneedssynch) (doall (for [] (somefunneedssynch) ))) acceptable?
11:58	jwm	I want the first somefunneedsynch not to be executed in the for loop
11:59	dvasquez	Is there any magic to getting tools.logging going? I've got a log4j.properties in classpath 'src/' with a ConsoleAppender but I don't get anything...
11:59	clojurebot	No entiendo
12:13	Frozenlock	'Warning: specified :main without including it in :aot.'
12:13	Frozenlock	May I ask what it means?
12:13	Frozenlock	(what are the implications?)
12:13	technomancy	Frozenlock: you should either add the namespace to :aot or add ^:skip-aot
12:14	technomancy	future versions of lein won't aot :main automatically
12:14	Frozenlock	Do I need aot for uberjar to work?
12:15	jcromartie	what's the best way to get route URLs for my Compojure application?
12:15	jcromartie	there's nothing like Rails' url_for
12:15	jcromartie	I guess I need to get the base URL from the request
12:15	jcromartie	and I could have controllers
12:15	technomancy	Frozenlock: no, but it can be more convenient
12:15	jcromartie	that are just structures with child routes
12:16	technomancy	Frozenlock: I would recommend never putting :aot outside the :uberjar profile if that's all you need it for
12:16	Bronsa	is it just me or does the sonatype web UI not load?
12:17	Frozenlock	technomancy: Ok. Is there a quick summary of what the AOT does? like 'makes things faster'?
12:18	technomancy	Frozenlock: the main thing AOT does is cause difficult-to-debug problems during development, but it also improves boot time and allows you to generate a named java class
12:18	technomancy	the latter of which is required for `java -jar ...`
12:19	technomancy	rule of thumb: never AOT during development if you can avoid it, only do it during release.
12:19	Frozenlock	gotcha
12:22	arrdem	technomancy: lein clean && lein test
12:22	technomancy	=(
12:29	coventry	gfredericks: Have you gone any further with your schema -> test.check generator since https://gist.github.com/fredericksgary/9787803 ?
12:30	gfredericks	coventry: somebody started a proper project out of it at clojure/west
12:31	gfredericks	coventry: https://github.com/MichaelBlume/schema-gen
12:32	coventry	Cool, thanks.
12:34	jcromartie	the solution is always JFDI (at least at first)
12:44	devn	is there a good (closer to comprehensive) set of documentation for core.async?
12:52	bbloom	devn: the core.async.clj is 90% doc strings... what exactly are you looking for?
13:14	gfredericks	documentation doesn't count unless it's a website with its own domain name and lots of CSS
13:15	arrdem	false....
13:15	jwm	I just want examples
13:15	jwm	that is all I want from "docs"
13:15	jwm	then I can live with docs on just the api printed from the code
13:16	jwm	heck clojure is the first system I actually have gone to the code to see how something is done
13:16	llasram	gfredericks: ha!
13:16	jwm	seriously
13:16	gfredericks	hyPiRion: aren't all clojure's data structure classes final and thus unextendable?
13:16	hyPiRion	gfredericks: what no
13:16	justin_smith	justinholguin: I am using clj-rss, what are the chances you guys would accept a patch so that I could give a proper atom namespace in the feed? http://validator.w3.org/feed/docs/warning/MissingAtomSelfLink.html
13:17	hyPiRion	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java#L20 do you see a final there? :(
13:17	justin_smith	(plus the atom:link in the channel section)
13:17	hyPiRion	It should be
13:18	gfredericks	hyPiRion: every dang other clojure class is final
13:18	gfredericks	hyPiRion: in any case a check for (= (class ob) ...) should work right?
13:20	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I'd use identical? actually, but yes. Just wanted to indirectly warn them to not do `instance?`
13:20	hyPiRion	Because that was my first thought
13:21	gfredericks	righto
13:27	coventry	jwm: Have you seen https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/examples/walkthrough.clj ?
13:31	hiredman	Keyword dropped the final at some point
13:31	hiredman	for unknown reasons
13:34	pjstadig	hiredman: really? huh
13:37	pjstadig	oh right that was a while ago
13:41	llasram	Oooh -- now you can make keywords which are also maps, which when called as a 0-argument function look themselves up in themselves
13:42	hyPiRion	you can also make persistent vectors containing themslves
13:42	justin_smith	weirdness
13:43	arrdem	madness...
13:45	llasram	hyPiRion: Was that? -- ##(doto [0] (as-> x (-> x .-tail (aset 0 x))))
13:45	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: as-> in this context
13:45	llasram	Ha!
13:45	llasram	,(doto [0] (as-> x (-> x .-tail (aset 0 x))))
13:45	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]
13:45	llasram	The we go
13:45	hyPiRion	llasram: yeah
13:45	llasram	~botsnack
13:45	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
13:46	arrdem	wat
13:46	llasram	arrdem: Vectors are mutable. But it's a secret! -- don't tell anyone
13:47	hyPiRion	Well actually, it's just that java arrays cannot be immutable
13:47	arrdem	http://arrdem.com/i/maddog.gif
13:47	arrdem	dang
13:47	hyPiRion	arrdem: that 404s
13:47	gfredericks	arrdem: that 404s
13:47	arrdem	hyPiRion: yeah. I forgot the trailing e.
13:47	arrdem	http://arrdem.com/i/maddoge.gif
13:48	gfredericks	arrdem: I assumed it must be about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Hall_%28programmer%29
13:48	arrdem	gfredericks: haha
13:48	bbloom	summary: rich hickey does not believe in encapsulation... at all
13:48	bbloom	~encapsulation
13:48	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:49	llasram	Exactly
13:49	hyPiRion	haha
13:49	bbloom	clojurebot: encapsulation is "Doctor it hurts when I do this."
13:49	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
13:49	shdwprince	Hi there! Can't remember how properly drop nth element from sequence, can you help me?
13:49	bbloom	~encapsulation
13:49	clojurebot	encapsulation is "Doctor it hurts when I do this."
13:49	arrdem	~cheatsheet
13:50	llasram	A friend of mine recently confessed that he is "skeptical of the JVM." I assured him that it exists
13:50	gfredericks	bbloom: does that phrase simply mean "encapsulation is bad" or something more specific?
13:50	gfredericks	llasram: what does "exists" mean wrt software?
13:50	shdwprince	searched for drop or remove, but found nothing about that
13:50	bbloom	gfredericks: it means that if you depend on internals or violate public contracts, that's your own damn fault
13:51	llasram	gfredericks: Just a play on multiple meanings of being "skeptical of" something, intended to parallel different meanings of "believing in" something
13:51	gfredericks	llasram: right, I just thought the idea of a configuration bits "existing" was a bit amusing
13:51	gfredericks	s/bits/of bits/
13:51	llasram	Oh, fair enough :-)
13:51	agarman	data encapsulation is pointless when you're working with data structures that are immutable
13:51	shdwprince	I mean I can (concat (take ..) (take-last ..)) but it seems that there is a better way
13:52	shdwprince	Is it?
13:52	gfredericks	bbloom: clojure isn't exactly known for having a well defined separation between public contracts and internals
13:52	bbloom	agarman: not entirely pointless, just of such low utility that it does more harm than good
13:52	hyPiRion	shdwprince: There's nothing existing in the core library, but you could implement a drop-nth function yourself. Give me a sec
13:52	llasram	Do all finite sequences bits "exist" in the sense that they are all equally possible?
13:52	llasram	A question to ponder
13:52	bbloom	gfredericks: sure it does. if lots of ppl depend on it, rich probably won't change it :-P
13:53	bbloom	gfredericks: hurray defacto definitions!
13:53	arrdem	bbloom: plz can has spec thnxbai
13:53	arrdem	ANSI Clojure 1.0.0...
13:53	bbloom	arrdem: here you go: github.com/clojure/clojure
13:54	gfredericks	bbloom: "lots"
13:54	agarman	the only benefit of encapsulating immutable data is to simplify a consumers world view
13:54	hiredman	bbloom: I assume final classes assist the jit though, but maybe that is wrong
13:55	hyPiRion	shdwprince: https://www.refheap.com/78796 -- I think that's roughly it
13:55	AimHere	Isn't 'simplifying a world view' pretty much what all high level computer languages are designed to do. Also low level ones.
13:55	bbloom	hiredman: final members & locals, definitely... classes? i dunno...
13:55	shdwprince	hyPiRion: thanks, I got it. Its sad, becose I dont like implementing basic functions, I mean, yeah, you can implement it, but after you need to require it all the times. But for that cause, it seems, there is no better way
13:55	hiredman	bbloom: seems like they would simplify the class hierarchy analysis
13:55	agarman	there are better ways to simplify...
13:56	bbloom	hiredman: but you've either got some object of exactly type T or some virtual hierarchy rooted at T
13:56	hyPiRion	shdwprince: In many cases, those functions aren't there because they are very inefficient. In many cases, it's sort-of a hint that one should consider structuring the data in a different way
13:56	bbloom	hiredman: i'd imagine in 99% of the cases you've got a final class, then it's usages are either through an interface or directly concrete
13:56	hiredman	bbloom: actually cliff click has a series of blog posts about trying to optimize final memembers, and it being a pain because no one repects final fields
13:56	hyPiRion	Oh dang, started both sentences with "In many cases".
13:57	bbloom	hiredman: you mean ppl use reflection to change final fields?
13:57	hiredman	bbloom: I forget the details, it may have been stuff like that
13:58	hiredman	http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2011-10-17-writing-to-final-fields-via-reflection http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2011-10-27-final-fields-part-2
13:58	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:58	bbloom	hiredman: heh, generated byte codes
13:59	bbloom	programmers can't be trusted not to hurt themselves...
13:59	llasram	I thought part of the effect of `final` was that the JVM was free to optimize away accesses to `final` fields
13:59	gtrak	llasram: think serialization libs
14:00	hiredman	you would have hoped
14:00	gtrak	sun.misc.unsafe can create objects without calling constructors
14:00	tbaldridge	final is pretty much useless these days IIRC
14:00	bbloom	constructors are kinda a bogus idea to begin with
14:00	gtrak	this is a really good article though: http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2011-10-17-writing-to-final-fields-via-reflection
14:00	llasram	ugh
14:01	tbaldridge	final is removed or added by the JIT as needed
14:01	dbasch	ugh, commented code in a source. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java#L348
14:01	gfredericks	clojure has a lot of commented code
14:02	hyPiRion	dbasch: you must be new to clojure.core
14:02	bbloom	dbasch: scroll down to the static public void main :-P
14:02	dbasch	and worse: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java#L723
14:03	arrdem	well at least we _have_ a benchmark in there somewhere...
14:03	tbaldridge	I found it interesting to find out that most of the people that hack on Clojure's guts use IDEs and just ignore most of that stuff.
14:03	tbaldridge	if you have a sorted method list, do large comment blocks matter?
14:03	dbasch	bbloom: yes, that’s the second link
14:04	arrdem	tbaldridge: neither does our uniquely inconsistent whitespace convention...
14:09	gfredericks	,(defmethod print-method :user/foo [x pw] (print-method "FOO" pw))
14:09	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@554210>
14:09	gfredericks	,(alter-meta! #'first assoc :type :user/foo)
14:09	clojurebot	{:added "1.0", :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name first, :file "clojure/core.clj", :static true, ...}
14:09	gfredericks	#'first
14:09	gfredericks	,#'first
14:09	clojurebot	"FOO"
14:10	gfredericks	does anybody think the multimethod + clojure.core/type mechanism for customization of print-method etc. is regretable?
14:11	gfredericks	I ask because I think it's cool but never see anybody use this mechanism for anything else ever
14:11	arrdem	it's kinda hard to have meaningful domain specific prints...
14:11	tbaldridge	gfredericks: I think it simply predates protocols
14:12	gfredericks	tbaldridge: it's a lot more flexible than protocols though since I can change individual objects that are IMeta
14:13	gfredericks	arrdem: I think it's cool for interactive development to e.g. have atoms that print interesting stuff
14:13	bbloom	gfredericks: i prefer multimethods over protocols for every reason except perf & "markers"
14:13	hiredman	it might have been better to dispatch on :print/type, but I dunno, it rarely if ever gets used, so it is hard to regret
14:13	tbaldridge	gfredericks: interesting, I didn't know that about type....
14:14	technomancy	gfredericks: it may not surprise you to find that I think it's cool
14:14	gfredericks	technomancy: It's almost surprising how surprised I'm not
14:14	gfredericks	bbloom: markers?
14:14	tbaldridge	but yes, I find it odd that print-method isn't a protocol. It should be IMO.
14:14	bbloom	gfredericks: for use with satisfies?
14:14	gfredericks	bbloom: oh gotcha
14:15	gfredericks	hiredman: that makes me think a 2-arg version of clojure.core/type would be useful
14:15	gfredericks	(type :print/type obj)
14:16	gfredericks	yeah I think the whole multimethod + metadata + custom-hierarchies feature set is one of the most interesting ones that never gets used
14:16	AeroNotix	How about this for a feature? https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/dcb26df5e85eb6c1ec40
14:17	AeroNotix	kind of like Erlang's when guards
14:17	gfredericks	AeroNotix: predicate dispatch is the term you want I think
14:17	gfredericks	bbloom probably thinks something about that
14:17	tbaldridge	bbloom: things things about a lot of things
14:17	tbaldridge	*thinks things
14:18	llasram	He also thinks thinks about a lot of thinks
14:18	gfredericks	clojurebot: bbloom \|thought\| a thunk once
14:18	clojurebot	In Ordnung
14:18	bbloom	predicate dispatch is tricky b/c it's potentially ambiguous
14:18	gfredericks	bbloom: that's open predicate dispatch in particular, right? where ordering is ambiguous?
14:19	bbloom	gfredericks: right
14:19	bbloom	gfredericks: but what good is closed predicate dispatch? booo
14:19	bbloom	might as well just fucking use cond at that point :-P
14:19	gfredericks	Closed Predicate Dispatch: at least it exists
14:19	AeroNotix	take a look at this: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/e4b0f4382397e518fcb1
14:19	AeroNotix	the alternative is a lot more verbose
14:20	bbloom	erlang's when guards (and haskell's views, scala's extractors, and a few other things)
14:20	AeroNotix	using predicates seems more declarative
14:20	bbloom	... are interesting
14:20	bbloom	BUT they operate in the context of ordered choice
14:20	bbloom	even when closed, ordered choice is a bitch b/c it means that you have implicit dependencies between clauses that are not explicit
14:21	gfredericks	bbloom: let's just use ratios on every clause to indicate order
14:21	gfredericks	that way you can always wedge one thing between another two
14:21	AeroNotix	bbloom: Erlang helps this by allowing only a specific set of guard functions
14:21	technomancy	bbloom: I get what you're saying, but it's a terrible reason to leave pattern matching out of a language
14:21	technomancy	it's like ... cond also has this problem
14:21	technomancy	and yet somehow we survive
14:21	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, i'm not opposed to pattern matching. i'm opposed to ordered choice encoded in to the pattern matcher
14:22	bbloom	take a look at mathematica for another interesting compromise
14:22	AeroNotix	bbloom: what's the alternative
14:22	gfredericks	technomancy: most of my production bugs are due to me running my cond-shuffling code transformation script accidentally
14:22	bbloom	mathematica has open predicate dispatch with pattern matching
14:22	tbaldridge	something dnolen mentioned years ago was that if something like core.match ever made it in as a "language feature" it would need to be order agnostic and extensible.
14:22	AeroNotix	gfredericks: you really have a script which does that?
14:22	gfredericks	AeroNotix: not at all
14:22	bbloom	it falls back to ordered choice when it can't automatically determine predicate implication
14:22	gfredericks	AeroNotix: at least I hope I don't
14:22	tbaldridge	core.match is order agnostic, IIRC. but not extensible.
14:23	bbloom	technomancy: it's neither of those things
14:23	hiredman	before I learned about unification I was using this system based on hierarchies to try and encode clojure's Numbers.java as a set of rules about types, but then I jsut rewrote it using core.logic
14:23	bbloom	technomancy: core.match tightly couples the optimizer to ordered choice
14:23	technomancy	it sucks to not have access to awesome stuff because something theoretically more awesome could exist
14:23	AeroNotix	"Worse is better"
14:23	hiredman	technomancy: but you have access, right?
14:24	gfredericks	technomancy: access is different from enshrining in core.clj
14:24	technomancy	hiredman: not really. I can't include core.match in lein, which is the only clojure I write. back when I wrote clojure daily, core.match wasn't suitable for use.
14:25	technomancy	hiredman: but FSVO "you", then yes =)
14:25	tbaldridge	technomancy: why can't you include it in lein?
14:25	gfredericks	clojurebot: core.match is a pattern-matching library available for use by anybody but technomancy
14:25	clojurebot	Roger.
14:25	tbaldridge	rofl
14:26	technomancy	tbaldridge: it would mean no one could use a newer version in any lein plugins
14:26	hiredman	there was a website where you could have it generate a license "this project is usable by anyone but <named party>"
14:26	technomancy	this has been a problem with several other libs; just ask Bronsa
14:26	bbloom	technomancy: surely you need OSGI
14:27	hyPiRion	hiredman: https://github.com/landondyer/kasm/blob/master/LICENSE
14:27	tbaldridge	actually, someone just needs to invent a decent plugin system for Clojure.
14:27	gfredericks	we should start using lib-cloning utilities until somebody solves dependency management
14:27	technomancy	bbloom: I was actually considering the idea of a compile-only dependency that could disappear at runtime
14:27	bbloom	technomancy: i'm actually thinking about exactly that right now
14:27	arrdem	I'm with TB here... a real plugin system for Clojure would be awesome
14:27	bbloom	technomancy: trying to bootstrap eclj.core
14:27	bbloom	technomancy: i want to be able to define clojure constructs in terms of clojrue constructs, but re-defing vars is a bitch b/c it affects old defintions
14:28	hyPiRion	gfredericks: one which allows multiple versions of dependencies to live side by side I guess?
14:28	arrdem	hyPiRion: that's great
14:28	bbloom	technomancy: since i own both the evaluator and the first-class environment implementation, i'm considering creating a virtualized namespace w/ static vars
14:28	technomancy	having namespaces more first-class would help, but without being able to re-root java classes it feels like a lost cause
14:28	hyPiRion	arrdem: yeah, I love it
14:28	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I guess I would have thought of that as a general dependency goal
14:29	bbloom	technomancy: might be doable to re-root deftype and friends, but not java code directly
14:29	gfredericks	technomancy: to use core.match you have to first write a jvm in clojure
14:29	justin_smith	gfredericks: the difference between a plugin vs. a normal lib, to me, is that it is more modular (can live alongside multiple versions of itself) and its point of interface with the rest of what you build is very narrow and well defined
14:29	tbaldridge	I'd be tempted to try the Erlang model. You don't couple dependencies, you spin up a JVM and communicate via sockets and pipes.
14:29	hiredman	tbaldridge: too slow
14:30	justin_smith	so any feature it would provide would be returned from its initialization function, and the consumer could decide where and how to bind that functionality / those definitions
14:30	technomancy	relative require would be cool
14:30	shdwprince	Is there is something like (apply -> argument forms) ?
14:30	tbaldridge	hiredman: start up time or general performance?
14:30	hiredman	tbaldridge: having lein spin up two jvms is already slow
14:30	arrdem	technomancy: what.. (:require ..foo)?
14:30	tbaldridge	hiredman: well that's the problem, it starts them then kills them
14:30	gfredericks	I've been trying to figure out how to get around the problem of protocols/multimethods having global customization scope
14:30	gfredericks	and something like that would fix it I think
14:30	technomancy	arrdem: sure, and ./foo
14:30	tbaldridge	hiredman: cljsbuild auto is a great example of what plugins should begin to look like, imo.
14:31	hiredman	tbaldridge: cljsbuild is kind of terrible in my, admittedly, limited experience with it
14:32	arrdem	tbaldridge: oh while you're here. I note that two lean clojure projects were accepted by GSoC. Is there a coordination plan?
14:32	tbaldridge	arrdem: IIRC the plan was that one will handle Rich's views on lean runtimes, while the other (your's I think) will hit the "full program optimization" route
14:33	hiredman	gfredericks: https://twitter.com/richhickey/status/249560631164932096
14:33	arrdem	tbaldridge: =D
14:33	ToxicFrog	"lean runtimes"?
14:33	hyPiRion	ToxicFrog: faster startup
14:34	ToxicFrog	yesssssssss
14:34	hyPiRion	that's what I alias it to
14:34	tbaldridge	ToxicFrog: basically advanced compilation for CLJ on the JVM
14:34	ToxicFrog	startup time is my #2 complaint about clojure
14:34	ToxicFrog	And the reason I basically only use it for daemons
14:34	shdwprince	ToxicFrog: and the first?
14:35	ToxicFrog	(well, daemons or programs where IO will dominate the runtime so severely that no-one will care if it takes a while to start up)
14:35	ToxicFrog	shdwprince: error reporting
14:35	ToxicFrog	Particularly, in the compiler.
14:35	AeroNotix	oh yes
14:35	AeroNotix	utterlly incomprehensible
14:35	gfredericks	hiredman: this is a classic example of a statement that presumably contains a value judgment but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is
14:35	gfredericks	nor can I figure out if it was intended to be obvious or not
14:36	hiredman	which statement?
14:36	gfredericks	hiredman: the toot you linked to
14:36	hiredman	gfredericks: well, multimethods are "global" to a clojure runtime, so if you want multiple runtimes...
14:37	gfredericks	hiredman: how easy do you think it would be to load a separate copy of cheshire with a classloader?
14:37	hiredman	gfredericks: the tricky part is communicating across classloader boundaries
14:37	arrdem	oooh boy guile+emacs got accepted to GSoC
14:38	gfredericks	hiredman: there'd be different instances of the RT class etc? or just the cheshire namespace objects and var objects?
14:38	technomancy	arrdem: they were accepted last year iirc
14:38	hiredman	at one point I had clojurebot loading clojure 1.2 in an insolated classloader to run fnparse, before I said screw it and spawed it out as a different process
14:39	bbloom	hyPiRion: i'm a bit late (opened the tab & got distracted) but ROFL @ the ABRMS license
14:39	hiredman	gfredericks: you really need everything to be isolated
14:39	arrdem	hiredman: you haven't upgraded to instaparse?!
14:39	bbloom	hyPiRion: that's fucking hilarious
14:39	gfredericks	hiredman: I'll call it impossible then
14:39	llasram	hiredman, gfredericks: I don't know if it does it the best way, but Alembic loads a Leiningen in a separate classloader and communicates with it
14:39	gfredericks	I wouldn't want to be cloning objects or anything wasteful like that
14:40	llasram	Ah
14:40	ToxicFrog	AeroNotix: once you get used to them, they aren't completely incomprehensible -- well, usually -- but that still does not excuse them.
14:40	ToxicFrog	The actual error is buried somewhere in the middle of the multiple pages of compiler stack trace vomit.
14:40	AeroNotix	I've been working with them for a while.
14:40	AeroNotix	I know what to look for
14:40	hiredman	well, that is just a trade off of isolation
14:40	llasram	gfredericks: I'm not really sure how you'd avoid that, since they'd have distinct implementations of all the core classes
14:40	AeroNotix	I guess I meant: "Incomprehensible to the beginner"
14:41	hiredman	similar to sharing things between erlang processes
14:41	gfredericks	llasram: right, that's why I'm giving up
14:41	bbloom	llasram: gfredericks: need to have common interfaces at some point to communicate between class loader domains
14:41	bbloom	it's basically impossible to modularize code from the outside
14:42	gfredericks	I'm just gonna fork cheshire & others and make them localizable
14:42	ToxicFrog	AeroNotix: oh, definitely.
14:43	AeroNotix	having the compiler spew internals at you when you misplaced a parens is just a tad unfriendly
14:44	gfredericks	having the compiler figure out that your only problem is you misplaced a paren is just a tad advanced
14:44	AeroNotix	gah I fucking hate the erlang riak client
14:45	AeroNotix	ah wrong channel
14:45	AeroNotix	sorry^
14:45	tbaldridge	AeroNotix: yeah, we only allow you to talk about Clojure and Haskell here...
14:45	AeroNotix	gfredericks: other languages seem to do a "good enough" job
14:45	gfredericks	AeroNotix: other lisps?
14:46	AeroNotix	gfredericks: clisp, sbcl seem to work fine enough
14:46	xpte	<arrdem> oooh boy guile+emacs got accepted to GSoC <-- again?
14:46	dakrone	gfredericks: what's the motive behind making it localizable?
14:46	gfredericks	AeroNotix: good to hear
14:46	xpte	i feel like it's gotten in at least three times, but there doesnt seem to be much to show for it
14:58	jwm	(-> :alerts (dateBasedKey))
14:58	jwm	the dateBasedKey is a function that returns (keyword date..)
14:58	jwm	doesnt loook like the key is getting expanded as a keyword in the macro though
14:59	gfredericks	jwm: that expression is identical to (dateBasedKey :alerts)
15:00	gfredericks	I'm not sure what your last statement means
15:01	jwm	I'm using a numerical string I wonder if that is what is making it not work
15:01	jwm	I just get the date string back
15:02	gfredericks	I'm still not understanding; but it sounds like the sort of thing where if you had a minimum example reproducing the problem we could figure it out quickly
15:02	jwm	((dateBasedKey) (-> data :alerts)) works
15:02	gfredericks	oooeh
15:02	gfredericks	try (-> data :alerts ((dateBasedKey)))?
15:03	justin_smith	yeah, that looks right
15:03	justin_smith	in -> (foo) is the same as foo
15:03	jwm	well that just started working
15:03	jwm	crazy!
15:03	jwm	mayhbe it was lighttable
15:03	gfredericks	jwm: try (macroexpand-1 '(-> ...)) to see the difference
15:03	justin_smith	you need ((foo)) to get wrapping
15:03	jwm	I was doing () in the -> statement
15:04	justin_smith	yeah, that is the same as no parens
15:04	jwm	it just kept giving me back the actual keyword string
15:04	dbasch	jwm: (-> bar (foo)) is the same as (-> bar foo)
15:04	justin_smith	you need double to get one
15:04	justin_smith	sugar is weird
15:04	jwm	well now it works with just a single one
15:04	justin_smith	it shouldn't
15:05	jwm	(sqdata :alerts (FMdatekey))
15:05	gfredericks	that's different
15:05	jwm	sqdata is a macro that expands to do -> + args
15:05	gfredericks	the -> is the important difference
15:07	dbasch	,(doc ->)
15:07	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
15:08	jwm	yeah
15:08	jwm	I made macros for all of my ref data to alter
15:08	jwm	(defmacro sqdata ([& args] `(-> @sqdata ~@args)))
15:08	jwm	so I could just do some tiny shorthand such as (sqdata :alerts :20140401)
15:09	jwm	I added the same form to my test code function and it also brought back the date but then I put it in double enclosures and it worked hehe
15:10	gfredericks	jwm: if you're just passing keys to lookup you don't need a macro for that
15:10	jwm	however the original statement now works even with single parenthesis
15:10	gfredericks	(defn sqdata [& keys] (get-in @sqdata keys))
15:10	jwm	which one would be faster to run
15:11	justin_smith	they should be nearly identical
15:11	justin_smith	criterium has the real answer though
15:12	jwm	the biggest thing that has slowed me down so far with clojure is learning the different forms of update-in
15:12	jwm	merge, into, assoc, conj with [], {}, () .. etc
15:13	justin_smith	but those things don't even exist in another language - it's a speedup!
15:13	gfredericks	java.jdbc's api that lets you put some options at the front of your statement vector is super gross
15:13	justin_smith	(once you know them)
15:13	llasram	jwm: You say it like `update-in` doesn't just take an arbitrary function
15:14	jcromartie	there's only one form of update-in
15:14	jwm	no, my problem isnt clojures
15:14	jwm	its the fact I go willy nilly when I pick my data structures
15:14	jcromartie	it's totally open ended
15:14	jcromartie	ah, yes, that can be an issue :P
15:14	jwm	I never use to even pay attention to it I'd just pick {} and be done with it :)
15:14	jcromartie	(it's totally open ended)
15:14	jwm	now I've got 31 flavors with my data
15:14	jwm	I spent 8 hours on a 6 line routine because of it lol
15:15	jcromartie	routing?
15:15	jcromartie	oh routine
15:15	jcromartie	sorry
15:15	jcromartie	(tiny fonts)
15:15	jwm	sorry should've said function anyway :)
15:15	jcromartie	I know the feeling
15:15	justin_smith	clojure is more concise so you need to re-evaluate your time per line of code heuristics
15:16	jcromartie	clojure is like a 4-cylinder race engine
15:16	mmitchell	has anyone ever used this for security in a clojure web app? http://www.picketlink.org/
15:16	jwm	yeah I noticed clojure makes me think while I program
15:16	justin_smith	jwm: regarding your above time question, -> is faster. https://www.refheap.com/78799
15:16	jwm	dunno if I like that part about it yet :)
15:16	arrdem	justin_smith: -> can use transients :D
15:16	arrdem	or should..
15:16	jcromartie	sophisticated, compact, powerful, and insanely difficult/expensive to diagnose when something goes wrong
15:17	justin_smith	arrdem: that would explain it, if that were the case
15:17	jwm	I started writing test cases which is the first time in my life because of clojure
15:17	gtrak	jwm: it gets better
15:17	gfredericks	arrdem: waat?
15:17	jwm	and my test cases were altering data in a way that made my normal code go bad hah
15:17	gtrak	a hardship worth pursuing :-)
15:18	arrdem	test generative next up...
15:18	justin_smith	jwm: when you have pure functions and immutible data, tests become much more useful and informative
15:18	jwm	yeah I know I am progressing as a developer
15:18	TimMc	justin_smith: I'll admit, I stopped reading at "Java EE".
15:18	gtrak	I've noticed that my java code-reading skills have improved immensely just by this process.
15:18	TimMc	right or wrong
15:18	gfredericks	arrdem: what on earth does "-> can use transients" mean?
15:18	justin_smith	TimMc: ?
15:19	jwm	justin_smith: I'll get there but this project has a deadline which I already sort of missed :)
15:19	jcromartie	you can use -> with transient mutator functions
15:19	jwm	at least I am separating my side effect functions from my non
15:19	arrdem	gfredericks: I'm derping at the moment... jira ticket I read yesterday and didn't recall correctly.
15:19	arrdem	gfredericks: but jcromartie got it right
15:19	jwm	I use to use functions like they were namespaces
15:19	justin_smith	TimMc: wait where did you read Java EE?
15:20	stuartsierra	How is `cljr-add-require-to-ns` supposed to work? I get stuck in the snippet.
15:20	gfredericks	arrdem: jcromartie: we were just comparing -> to get-in, which doesn't update anything
15:20	gfredericks	did I miss a separate topic?
15:20	arrdem	gfredericks: nope.
15:20	arrdem	gfredericks: this is unrelated
15:20	gfredericks	oh phew
15:22	TimMc	justin_smith: Oh whoops, that was mmitchell.
15:23	jcromartie	jwm: IMHO Clojure is a language for the long run. I think there are plenty of languages better suited for many purposes, but Clojure brings a better return on investment in the long run.
15:23	jcromartie	jwm: I would hate to learn it while on a project with a deadline, though.
15:24	jwm	that is the only way I learn stuff
15:24	jwm	if I have some fire to put out
15:24	justin_smith	especially if it is one's first lisp (or worse yet, first non procedural/oo language)
15:24	jwm	I'm already 5 times more productive in clojure than nodejs heh
15:24	jwm	I studied lisp (10!) years ago
15:24	justin_smith	jwm: in self education I have become a semi-expert in starting small fires on a daily basis :)
15:25	jwm	I went from asm coding and osdev straight to webdev possibly after repainting my jeep without a face mask on
15:25	justin_smith	inhalents are a hell of a drug
15:25	jcromartie	if I didn't know Lisp or JavaScript, I'd prefer to learn Clojure over Node.js
15:26	jcromartie	Clojure has quirks, but nothing like the whoppers in JS
15:26	jwm	node-webkit is a nice model
15:26	devn	tips for reporting and handling exceptions in core.async?
15:26	dbasch	jcromartie: you made me remember https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
15:26	gtrak	"Effective Javascript" was a really fun and quick read, cascading horrors made me lol.
15:27	jwm	its kind of ironic I am using a nodejs based system to get off of nodejs (lighttable)
15:27	jcromartie	<3 Gary Bernhardt
15:28	akhudek	devn: make sure you dont’ pass lazy sequences into put!
15:28	arrdem	ah the "wat" talk..
15:28	justin_smith	mmitchell: regarding your question above, immutant is a clojure utility based on jboss, and it may be helpful if you want to use picketlink with clojure?
15:28	akhudek	that way exceptions will not occur inside the put!
15:29	akhudek	probably want to catch them within a go block too, not outside of it
15:32	jwm	anyone else use (cond) to make themselves a nice/po man test runner
15:33	jwm	(defn FMtests [tsttype tst] (cond
15:33	llasram	what? no
15:33	llasram	Just use clojure.test
15:33	jwm	I still use that its just this way I can pass a nice long string
15:34	BobSchack	devn http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/31/asynchronous-error-handling/
15:34	jcromartie	jwm: I think everybody is confused
15:34	jwm	(FMtests "alerts" "merge test email and destroy report spool")
15:34	llasram	status unchanged :-)
15:35	jwm	I just check for condition tsttype = alerts and then check what tst= wants to run and then do my test code
15:36	jwm	I was wondering what patterns pros use
15:36	tcrawley	mmitchell: don't use picketlink unless you absolutely have to. like, someone is going to shoot you in the head if you don't use it
15:36	gfredericks	clojure.test
15:37	mmitchell	tcrawley: lol - advice, straight up! I have no requirements, just looking for a good lib that handles authentication/authorization and pluggable backends (ldap, custom etc.)
15:43	dbasch	mmitchell: technically you can plug your backend into friend
15:43	dbasch	mmitchell: in fact you really have no choice
15:45	mmitchell	dbasch: yes, been playing with friend today also. Slowly starting to understand how it works.
15:52	mmitchell	dbasch: what do you mean "no choice"?
15:53	dbasch	mmitchell: well, you do have a choice in that you can use openid, otherwise you have to plug in your own authentication mechanism
15:54	mmitchell	dbasch: ahh, right. I understand!
15:55	mikerod	I had an interesting discovery on clj 1.6 today. The newer version of ASM lib being brought it now fails faster when a method size is too large
15:55	mikerod	Previously, I didn't see "too large" method size errors until the ClassLoader failed when loading the byte code
15:55	mikerod	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/asm/MethodWriter.java#L1871
15:55	mikerod	looks like they added some explicit checking during bytecode generation now
15:56	jcromartie	that's a nice improvement
15:56	mikerod	So previously, I could run something like clojure-maven-plugin compile phase "compile to temp" output to ensure that the compiler didn't throw errors. We knew some methods were too large, but it didn't matter since we weren't loading up from the AOT __init files. Now it fails during the compilation though.
15:57	mikerod	jcromartie: I agree that it is a good improvement to fail-fast on this, as ASM does now
15:57	mikerod	Just snuck up on me.
15:59	mmitchell	tcrawley: curious... what was your experience with picketlink, and do you have any recommendations?
16:01	tcrawley	mmitchell: I don't have any recommendations, and I've never used picketlink. I have friends that have had to integrate with picketlink (via java), and had a very difficult time.
16:01	tcrawley	so, I'm basically talking out of my ass
16:01	akhudek	ooh, picketlink has SAML
16:01	mmitchell	ha well that's ok.
16:01	tcrawley	but it does embrace the complexity of JavaEE, which can be daunting
16:02	mmitchell	right, it looks HUGE too
16:02	mmitchell	I've also been looking at Apache/Shiro
16:02	akhudek	mmitchell: I’ve used shiro
16:02	akhudek	it’s “ok"
16:02	mmitchell	oh really? any feedback?
16:02	mmitchell	ok
16:02	mmitchell	akhudek: have you used friend?
16:03	akhudek	mmitchell: only on a small utility project, it didn’t exist when we started so we have our own authentication system
16:03	akhudek	we use shiro for authorization
16:04	mmitchell	akhudek: do you have various/different methods for auth or just use 1?
16:05	akhudek	mmitchell: just one, but one day I’d like to support saml too
16:07	mmitchell	akhudek: ok cool, thanks for your feedback. I'll have another look at shiro too
16:08	akhudek	mmitchell: the nice thing about it is that you can fairly easily customize the storage for your authorization roles
16:09	mmitchell	that's definitely important for what we're building
16:10	mmitchell	akhudek: does it require that your app be a proper servlet app? I think I saw some clojure code using Shiro that said you can't (for example) use something like http-kit's server
16:12	akhudek	mmitchell: It may depend on how much of it you use. But if you just want to use authorization then you can simply intantiate the right objects and store them in the user’s session.
16:13	mmitchell	interesting ok
16:14	amalloy	forge before jack to shuffle stuff in?
16:14	amalloy	whoops, wrong window
16:15	tvanhens	is there a way to execute "load-string" in a namespace other than the one you are currently in? I am trying to dynamically load functions from specific files through a defn function that wraps load-string. The funciton works when I call it from the namespace I am in, however when I try to call that function from other namespaces that I have required it into, I get unable to resolve symbol errors
16:15	gtrak	you can bind ns
16:15	gtrak	though that's for eval, not read-string
16:16	hiredman	namespaces are not things that things happen in
16:16	gtrak	except eval :-)
16:17	tvanhens	I thought that load string was a combination of eval and read-string
16:17	gtrak	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7684656/clojure-eval-code-in-different-namespace
16:17	gtrak	I don't know load-string
16:17	hiredman	sure, but a namespace isn't a think that things happen in, a namespace is a big map you look up values from
16:18	hiredman	the compiler uses ns by default to look things up
16:18	gtrak	what's it mean to have a thing happen in a thing?
16:18	hiredman	but at execution time, ns can be bound to any random thing
16:18	tvanhens	gotcha
16:18	gtrak	that's kind of a pedantic distinction.. does something actually happen in a thread?
16:19	gtrak	as a straw man, I guess
16:19	tvanhens	so eval by default uses whatever namespace is most recently called?
16:19	hiredman	namespaces are a compile time environment, the only time ns is for sure the namespace your function is defined is, is when it is being compiled
16:19	hiredman	namespaces are not called
16:19	tvanhens	I don't know the correct terminology I just mean the context its in
16:20	hiredman	eval uses ns
16:20	gtrak	I'm guessing load-string would use the same stuff, from a cursory look
16:24	gtrak	tvanhens: it's possible (but-nasty) to change the ns mid-flight to redefine stuff
16:24	gtrak	I forget what library had that :-)
16:26	tvanhens	so say I want to dynamically run functions contained in strings from a database. And the functions that call load-string to evaluate them are all contained in the same namespace. But I want to be able to call those functions from a different namespace. How would I prevent eval from using the latter?
16:27	gtrak	why not just fully-qualify the functions?
16:27	gtrak	this sounds like X-Y problem
16:28	gtrak	also, eval's a massive security hole when used like that, maybe a multi-method DSL would be better.
16:29	tvanhens	the database is behind a firewall and only used internally so I'm not too worried about that too much
16:30	justin_smith	tvanhens: is this some kind of expert system or genetic algo?
16:31	tvanhens	not at the present point in time, just a spaghetti of code. But thats what I'm working on trying to put together
16:32	gtrak	tvanhens: anyway you can mess with ns, it's a dynamic var, so it's thread-local.
16:33	tvanhens	thanks I'll give that a go
16:33	justin_smith	tvanhens: storing code in a db is not a way to avoid spaghetti...
16:33	gtrak	candidate for inclusion into footgun :-)
16:34	tvanhens	Well aware of that :) trying to figure out a smart way of doing that
16:34	justin_smith	tvanhens: I'm trying to picture a scenario where that would improve on the normal fs mapping of namespaces, and if you aren't doing genetic algos I don't know how it would help
16:34	justin_smith	is there some pragmatic need for not having normal files of code?
16:36	tvanhens	business requirement. Not the biggest fan of it, but trying to figure out a way to make it work. They want to put most of the codebase into datomic in small applet forms that are executed in the time context they were created in
16:37	gtrak	quite the trippy manager
16:37	tvanhens	Yeah, its definitely an interesting challenge
16:39	tvanhens	well thanks for the input. Going to try some things out
16:48	devn	tbaldridge: Could you or anyone else give me the gist of what ioc-alts! does?
16:49	tbaldridge	devn: sure
16:51	tbaldridge	do-alts handles the mechanics of alts!. It takes a callback (to be handed to the dispatcher if the alt is parked), and a set of channels. It returns nil if the action is parked, or a value box if the operation succeeded without needing a dispatch
16:51	tbaldridge	the function ioc/run-state-machine-wrapped is what ends up calling this function, and it expects :recur if execution should continue, or nil if the execution of the state machine should pause
16:52	tbaldridge	so you can probably see that if do-alts returns nil, then the inner callback will handle the continuation of execution, otherwise execution continues inside the caller of ioc-alts!
16:52	tbaldridge	the ioc/aset-all! stuff is record keeping for the next state to jump to and tracking the value returned by alts!
16:52	tbaldridge	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L344
16:55	devn	ahhh
16:55	devn	thank you tbaldridge
16:57	devn	ive been reading and re-reading the API docs to get leveled on core.async-fu. do-alt and ioc-alts! stuck out to me because they didn't have docstrings. i was searching in the file for ioc-alts! and didn't see any callers in clojure.core.async, so thought I'd reach out and ask since I saw you were active
16:58	devn	tbaldridge: maybe this is contrary to the whole point of core.async, but I was wondering: Is there a way to count the number of items currently put onto a channel?
17:03	tbaldridge	devn: not really, one could write a custom buffer with count mechanics, but that leads to all sorts of race conditions.
17:05	devn	tbaldridge: yeah, i figured as much, this was more for me to just tinker with some ideas -- to ask some questions about a particular channel.
17:06	tbaldridge	you could also write something like async/pipe that stores the current count in an atom
17:06	tbaldridge	it takes as many items as it can and stores them somewhere and keeps track of the count
17:06	tbaldridge	putting them into the output as it can
17:07	ToBeReplaced	i wonder if you could write a function to accept a channel and then reify something implementing ReadPort, WritePort, Channel... on write/read swap! an atom
17:10	devn	here's a giant, loaded question for you :) -- i am working on something where i have a set of URLS in a CSV file with some other metadata about them. Once it is fetched, it has a few CPU-bound transforms applied to it. These transforms also eat up a bunch of memory. Finally, they are uploaded to S3. Failed items at each step need to be logged to a CSV file. Successful items which are uploaded also need to be logged.
17:13	devn	The question(s) is/are: 1) Any ideas for dynamically arriving at the max connections a particular host can take? 2) How would you handle the logging? 3) Any other general observations or thoughts?
17:13	devn	tbaldridge: ^
17:14	jwm	sounds like a good introspective app
17:14	jwm	I plan to incorporate that kind of coding into my dev process
17:15	tbaldridge	devn: I really recommend a pipeline approach for this, each task is a go and takes from one channel and writes to another. Make a constructor for each task that takes a param for the number of gos for each app.
17:15	tbaldridge	then configure the entire thing off a large hashmap that takes the sizes of each buffer and the number of gos, tweak until you're happy
17:15	tbaldridge	*gos for each task.
17:16	tbaldridge	I mean, you could also implement an auto balancing system for this, but I've found those things hard to get right
17:16	devn	heh, yes
17:16	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/11194485
17:16	tbaldridge	it can often just be easier to give yourself an easy way to configure it by hand or via a config file.
17:17	hiredman	(it uses futures, because you can future-cancel, and it assumes you'll be doing side effects)
17:18	devn	tbaldridge: yeah, the only thing is, in some cases the set of hosts I have to get things from varies. some hosts might allow 100 connections, others 25, maybe another will only allow 2. knowing this up front is hard.
17:18	devn	hiredman: thanks i'll give it a long
17:18	devn	look*
17:18	tbaldridge	you can shutdown this pipeline as well via closing the input/output channels, this has the added plus of only shutting down once a given item is processed
17:19	tbaldridge	future-cancel can kill in the middle of something important.
17:19	hiredman	tbaldridge: sure, but some times you don't care
17:19	tbaldridge	agree
17:19	tbaldridge	*agreed
17:19	tbaldridge	devn: how do you know how many connections is "too many"?
17:19	hiredman	the pipeline function returns a data structure containing all the input and output channels which is nice too
17:20	devn	tbaldridge: things start failing. unfortunately, it can also fail because the resource simply is not there.
17:20	devn	i've inadvertantly taken down one of these hosts
17:20	devn	so it makes me want to be extra careful, because if it goes down, I'm hosed until someone gets around to flipping the lights back on
17:21	tbaldridge	devn: my point being, if you don't have a reliable feedback system, having a self tuning system doesn't help much
17:22	devn	tbaldridge: i imagine something like accelerating per-host -- the reliability of the feedback system is bad, yes, but over 1,000,000 items for a particular host, it seems doable to arrive at a reasonable "speed limit" for that host
17:22	devn	but with over 1,000,000 items*
17:23	devn	tbaldridge: in any case, i think you're right, but it does pain me a bit to have to settle. I'd love to build this so it can try to tune itself.
17:24	devn	hiredman: this is pretty cool
17:32	devn	hiredman: how would i pass this something like source-csv -> fn-which-processes-a-single-row -> next-step-fn?
17:33	tbaldridge	devn: and something else to mention for hiredman's approach, I think we're too quick sometimes to reach for 'go'. If you're creating a static pipeline, use thread or future
17:40	devn	hiredman: also, where do you pull results off? I tried to (<!! (:out (pipeline [10 (comp list inc) ...]))) for instance
17:44	mmitchell	ok i have a (kind of) working friend workflow. The problem is, I don't want to redirect after a successful login, I just want to render a 201 (session created) - anyone know how to disable that redirect? hmm.
17:50	rasmusto	devn: (<!! out) seemed to work for me, did you write to in?
17:52	devn	rasmusto: like (go (>! (:in (pipeline [...])) 1) ?
17:52	coventry	In sablono, how do you get an attribute without a value (like autofocus) into a tag?
17:55	devn	rasmusto: ah, nevermind, i mixed something up
17:55	dbasch_	hyPiRion: why?
17:55	hyPiRion	dbasch_: why what?
17:55	dbasch_	hyPiRion: why do you think it should be final
17:56	zeeshanlakhani	reiddraper: around for a quick, but dumb question on test.check?
17:57	rasmusto	devn: oh, I did it with a single blocking write (trying to learn async stuff myself)
17:57	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: shoot
17:57	jcromartie	what's the better type to dispatch on: clojure.lang.IPersistentMap or clojure.lang.APersistentMap
17:57	devn	rasmusto: as in (>!! (:in (pipeline [...])))?
17:57	jcromartie	same question for sets and vectors, too
17:57	zeeshanlakhani	how can i tap into :max-size for running a tc/qc test via clojure.test (defspec)?
17:58	rasmusto	devn: yeah, though make sure you have a reference to out available to read from
17:58	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: unfrotunately thats' an outsanding issue at the moment: you can't with defspec
17:59	zeeshanlakhani	reiddraper: ah, ok. is there a link to the issue? just to keep tabs or possibly contribute?
18:00	hyPiRion	dbasch_: because if you want to conform to the Persistent Vector implementation, it is better to extend APersistentVector instead
18:01	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: lemme check
18:01	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/TCHECK-10
18:03	zeeshanlakhani	reiddraper: thanks!
18:03	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: np
18:03	dbasch_	hyPiRion: that’s not reason enough to make it final
18:06	amalloy	dbasch_: what are you arguing should not be final? c.l.Persistentvector?
18:07	hyPiRion	amalloy: yeah
18:07	amalloy	that'd be really bad; for the same reason String has to be final
18:07	amalloy	ie, if you give someone a String, they know it can't ever mutate
18:08	amalloy	if i extend String to SneakyMutableString, you have a String which suddenly can change out from under you
18:08	devn	rasmusto: why do you say to "make sure"
18:08	devn	rasmusto: does it change underneath you or something?
18:09	rasmusto	well, it'll make a new network each time you call (pipeline), right?
18:10	dbasch_	amalloy: it’s not final right now
18:13	devn	rasmusto: heh, im trying to figure it out
18:13	devn	rasmusto: I tried pushing a hash-map onto it, and i got it out as a collection of map entries
18:15	devn	well, it did say it took "things" and not "thing" :)
18:17	rasmusto	well, it'll partition the pieces if they're passed in a different way
18:18	devn	rasmusto: heh, if you're running in the repl beware
18:18	devn	i found out i had 2,000 threads running
18:18	rasmusto	I know, had to restart it a few times
18:19	rasmusto	created a network of 100 threads and held down ctrl+enter in lighttable
18:25	amalloy	jcromartie: you should never dispatch on APersistentWhatever
18:25	amalloy	interfaces, not implementations based on abstract classes, are what you care about
18:42	sir	What's that Clojure trick?
18:42	gfredericks	clojurebot: you \|should never dispatch on\| APersistentWhatever
18:42	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
18:42	sir	Like, ((juxt remove get) {:foo 2} :foo) or something.
18:47	justin_smith	,((juxt dissoc get) {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2} :b)
18:47	clojurebot	[{:c 2, :a 0} 1]
18:47	TEttinger	~you
18:47	clojurebot	you should never dispatch on APersistentWhatever
18:47	TEttinger	see what you did gfredericks
18:49	sir	Ah yes, dissoc! Thanks.
18:54	gfredericks	TEttinger: yes indeed I do
18:55	gfredericks	ATransientSubHashTree$EMPTY$Seq
18:56	TEttinger	clojurebot: you \|are\| in the Clojure IRC channel. Good work.
18:56	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
18:56	gfredericks	clojurebot: you \|don't have to tell\| me twice
18:56	clojurebot	Roger.
18:57	gfredericks	I should find hiredman's csv file and uniq the verbs to see what the weirdest ones are
18:57	amalloy	gfredericks is a menace to bots everywhere
18:58	TEttinger	clojurebot: gfredericks \|is\| a menace to bots everywhere
18:58	clojurebot	In Ordnung
18:58	gfredericks	botmenace is gonna be my new internet handle once I turn 15
19:07	justin_smith	he's not the user input they were designed for, but he is the user input they need
19:13	rasmusto	~menace
19:13	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:13	rasmusto	doesn't clojurebot have some sort of search/pattern matching stuff?
19:21	justin_smith	,(re-seq #"ab.a" "abracadabracadabra")
19:21	clojurebot	("abra" "abra" "abra")
19:27	gfredericks	,(re-seq #"(cad)?abra" "this string has abracadabra in it")
19:27	clojurebot	(["abra" nil] ["cadabra" "cad"])
19:28	gfredericks	,(re-seq #"(?:cad)?abra" "this string has abracadabra in it")
19:28	clojurebot	("abra" "cadabra")
19:37	rasmusto	,(doc cadabra)
19:37	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:40	devn	rasmusto: get it figured out?
19:40	rasmusto	which part specifically?
19:40	devn	idk, just curious if you got it working to your satisfaction
19:41	devn	I have a couple of functions which expect a map as input
19:41	rasmusto	devn: ah, I was really just messing about, didn't have an end goal really
19:41	rasmusto	did you get some maps to flow through it?
19:43	devn	i am going to play with it in a bit. i just got home
19:45	devn	rasmusto: it doesn't seem to be runnning my functions
19:46	Glenjamin	Hi guys, is there a difference between alter-var-root and def ?
19:46	Glenjamin	specifically if I'm not using the previous value
19:46	rasmusto	devn: did you (comp list yourfunc) ?
19:46	devn	rasmusto: no, is that really required?
19:46	rasmusto	devn: I think so, my brain didn't wrap around those inner loops though
19:47	devn	yeah, all that does is give me [{...}] as my out
19:47	devn	where {...} has not had my fns applied to it
19:47	rasmusto	devn: got a paste? or an example of one of the fns + input
19:49	devn	rasmusto: ill have to do some cleaning, but sure
19:50	rasmusto	devn: (comp list #(assoc % :foo (rand-int 10))) was what I tested it with
19:50	devn	oh, maybe i just need another wrapper around my fn
19:52	devn	now im just getting all nils -- weird
19:54	devn	rasmusto: eval'ing in the file gives me nil as a result
19:54	rasmusto	devn: https://www.refheap.com/78833
19:54	devn	eval'ing in the repl gives me a different result
19:54	rasmusto	hm, that's weird
20:01	devn	rasmusto: got it working now -- not sure totally what is going on
20:01	storme	Hello, is there a way to specify (inc) to incream by two rather than one? i.e (inc(2) 1) = 3?
20:01	storme	increase*
20:02	Bronsa	storme: just use +
20:02	hyPiRion	storme: (#(+ % 2) 1) ?
20:03	justin_smith	or partial can work
20:03	amalloy	,(let [incrementor (fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y))), inc2 (incrementor 2)] (inc2 1))
20:03	clojurebot	3
20:03	storme	Bronsa: was hoping there was a more clojurey idiomatic way
20:03	amalloy	storme: addition is pretty idiomatic
20:03	storme	lol
20:03	amalloy	when you want to add two numbers, it's hard to be more idiomatic than +
20:04	storme	amolloy++
20:04	storme	:)
20:04	justin_smith	,(let [frob (partial + 42)] (map frob (range 4)))
20:04	clojurebot	(42 43 44 45)
20:04	amalloy	storme: your IRC client probably lets you tab-complete usernames
20:06	devn	rasmusto: bah, this is weird
20:06	rasmusto	devn: whats that
20:07	devn	it was calling my fn, now it's not
20:07	devn	i have logging in it, so i should see it
20:10	gfredericks	amalloy: NumberManagerAwarenessBean.getAdditionMaker()
20:11	devn	rasmusto: if i remove the second function in the pipeline it works
20:11	devn	or rather, it appears to actually call my fn
20:12	gfredericks	amalloy: I know enterprise OO jokes have been around awhile but mine is a creative reimagining of a classic
20:12	amalloy	gfredericks: http://java.metagno.me/ is a recent one
20:12	gfredericks	amalloy: oh this is a great idea
20:13	amalloy	i did slightly worse than chance
20:13	hyPiRion	gfredericks: ConcreteStatelessNumberMethodFactory.getAdditionMethod(3) ?
20:13	beamso	java.metagno.me is both brilliant and scary
20:14	justin_smith	they don't check whether the algorithm accidentally makes real class names
20:14	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it should probably be getAdditionCallable
20:14	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yeah, sorry. I'll show myself out.
20:14	justin_smith	so sometimes you know one of the classes is real, but it is not marked by the game as "real"
20:15	rasmusto	devn: hm, seems to work for me with a second function in there
20:15	devn	really?
20:15	devn	can you paste for me?
20:15	justin_smith	Mathematics.Numbers.Operations.Linear.Commutative.AdditionBy(4)
20:16	gfredericks	org.springframework.web.servlet.handler.AbstractHandlerMethodExceptionResolver
20:16	gfredericks	^ real
20:16	rasmusto	devn: https://www.refheap.com/78833
20:16	gfredericks	it has a subclass called ExceptionHandlerExceptionResolver (??)
20:18	Glenjamin	Hi guys, is there a difference between alter-var-root and def ?
20:18	gfredericks	yes
20:18	Glenjamin	if i'm not using the previous value, that is
20:19	bbloom	rasmusto: i am very bad at this game.
20:19	rasmusto	bbloom: sup?
20:19	justin_smith	I do worse than chance at the java.metagno.me game
20:19	hyPiRion	justin_smith: me too.
20:19	bbloom	rasmusto: whoops, i meant beamso
20:20	Si_	anyone here have any experience with caribou?
20:20	gfredericks	that means < 1/3 correct?
20:20	justin_smith	yes, I am at 0/6 at the moment
20:20	rasmusto	bbloom: :)
20:20	bbloom	rasmusto: i scrolled up & saw beamso's java class name game, then i saw you posted a refheap link and my brain barfed out your name on the tab complete
20:20	justin_smith	1/8
20:20	rasmusto	bbloom: tab complete from the nick ending or something
20:20	rasmusto	fuzzy-find-nick
20:21	bbloom	rasmusto: nah just brain failure
20:21	rasmusto	fuzzy-brain-failure
20:21	bbloom	very.
20:23	devn	rasmusto: omg
20:23	rasmusto	devn: <! me
20:23	devn	rasmusto: somehow I rewrote the pipeline output map {:in (:in (first x)) ...} to be (last x)
20:23	devn	rasmusto: >! your pants on
20:23	devn	>!!*
20:24	devn	rasmusto: okay, this works beautifully now. sigh
20:24	devn	this is a sign i'm supposed to take a break
20:24	rasmusto	ah, that would explain it, were you trying to read and write from the same channel or something?
20:31	kras	HI, how do I get the quotient part of a division?
20:31	gfredericks	,(quot 7 5)
20:31	clojurebot	1
20:31	kras	,(/ 856 100)
20:31	clojurebot	214/25
20:31	justin_smith	the jvm does not let you do the division and quotient in one op sadly
20:32	justin_smith	if that is what you mean
20:32	devn	,((juxt numerator denominator) 1/12)
20:32	clojurebot	[1 12]
20:32	justin_smith	I guess someone could make a machine level binding that makes the appropriate call to the underlying cpu
20:32	devn	is that what you mean?
20:32	bbloom	i wouldn't be surprised if there was a div/mod peephole optimization for x86 at least
20:32	bbloom	in hotspot, anyway
20:32	justin_smith	bbloom: how would you bind to it? would the jit just do it?
20:33	kras	quot would do just fine for my case
20:33	bbloom	justin_smith: you'd probably just have to do division & quotation right next to each other with the same variables as inputs & have them be primitives
20:33	bbloom	justin_smith: but i'm just guessing
20:34	bbloom	justin_smith: still, probably unlikely to be accomplished via a var in clojure. would need a java method
20:34	kras	thanks guys
20:34	gfredericks	bbloom: quotation? is this a word?
20:34	bbloom	gfredericks: er, quotient
20:34	bbloom	quotations on the brain :-P
20:34	amalloy	quotientation
20:34	bbloom	if you haven't noticed by now, my brain is totally not a brain at the moment
20:34	justin_smith	gfredericks: it is a word, but wrong domain
20:35	justin_smith	,''''''quote
20:35	clojurebot	(quote (quote (quote (quote (quote quote)))))
20:35	devn	rasmusto: damn, this is really nice now that it's working.
20:35	devn	hiredman: thanks again for that gist. very cool.
20:36	arrdem	,''
20:36	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
20:36	devn	,`':>
20:36	clojurebot	(quote :>)
20:36	justin_smith	,''''''(unquote "brain")
20:36	clojurebot	(quote (quote (quote (quote (quote (unquote "brain"))))))
20:36	gfredericks	,'etouq
20:36	clojurebot	etouq
20:36	devn	,`'~:>
20:36	clojurebot	(quote :>)
20:36	gfredericks	,''etouq
20:36	clojurebot	(quote etouq)
20:36	bbloom	,(defrecord Hold [x])
20:36	clojurebot	sandbox.Hold
20:36	devn	,(Hold. x)
20:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:36	devn	,(Hold. 1)
20:36	clojurebot	#sandbox.Hold{:x 1}
20:36	bbloom	,#sandbox.Hold (inc 5)
20:36	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
20:37	bbloom	,#sandbox.Hold {:x (inc 5)}
20:37	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
20:37	bbloom	blah
20:37	arrdem	bbloom: oh god why
20:37	devn	,(binding [real-eval true] #sandbox.Hold {:x (inc 5)})
20:37	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
20:37	devn	worth a try
20:37	bbloom	,(eval (Hold. '(inc 5)))
20:37	clojurebot	#sandbox.Hold{:x (inc 5)}
20:37	arrdem	(inc devn)
20:37	lazybot	⇒ 17
20:37	gfredericks	,#=(set! read-eval true)
20:37	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
20:38	devn	heh, Ye Olde #=
20:38	devn	For some reason this reminds me of when #^ was the metadata syntax
20:38	gfredericks	what should #~ do
20:38	devn	and i have no idea why
20:39	devn	gfredericks: do a load-string
20:39	lemonodor	,(binding [clojure.core/real-eval true] #sandbox.Hold {:x (inc 5)})
20:39	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
20:39	devn	,read-eval
20:39	clojurebot	false
20:40	gfredericks	guys you gotta actually call the reader if you want that sort of thing to work
20:40	justin_smith	,(= 'real 'read)
20:40	clojurebot	false
20:40	devn	,(read-string "(binding [clojure.core/read-eval true] #sandbox.Hold {:x (inc 5)})")
20:40	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
20:40	gfredericks	not like that either
20:40	gfredericks	you do the binding outside the read
20:41	devn	show me
20:41	devn	tough guy
20:41	gfredericks	it's not going to work of course
20:41	gfredericks	but it's the only way that even could work
20:41	gfredericks	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#sandbox.Hold {:x (inc 5)}"))
20:41	clojurebot	#sandbox.Hold{:x (inc 5)}
20:41	gfredericks	omg omg omg omg omg omg
20:41	devn	bahahahahahahahahahahaha
20:42	bbloom	awesome
20:42	justin_smith	wait what?
20:42	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "(defn foo [x] (inc x))"))
20:42	clojurebot	(defn foo [x] (inc x))
20:42	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (eval (read-string "(defn foo [x] (inc x))")))
20:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
20:43	gfredericks	,(set! read-eval true)
20:43	clojurebot	true
20:43	gfredericks	,#=(inc 54)
20:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
20:43	gfredericks	,(read-string "#=(inc 54)")
20:43	devn	,read-eval
20:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
20:43	clojurebot	false
20:43	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (eval (read-string "#=(inc 54)")))
20:43	clojurebot	55
20:43	justin_smith	gfredericks: I think it has to do with the fact clojurebot puts eat eval in a new thread
20:44	gfredericks	devn: you didn't need the eval there
20:44	devn	right, 'cause hash equals
20:44	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(inc 54)"))
20:44	clojurebot	55
20:44	gfredericks	now let's try to do something forbidden
20:44	gfredericks	,(try 42)
20:44	clojurebot	42
20:44	devn	:X
20:44	amalloy	since when does clojurebot allow eval? i thought it didn't used to do that
20:44	gfredericks	,(try 42 (catch Throwable t t))
20:44	clojurebot	gfredericks: Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:44	gfredericks	,(identity "catch")
20:44	clojurebot	gfredericks: Pardon?
20:45	gfredericks	well that'll be tough
20:45	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(try 42 (catch Throwable t t))"))
20:45	clojurebot	devn: Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:45	devn	:(
20:45	devn	,(inc 1)
20:45	clojurebot	2
20:45	gfredericks	amalloy: maybe my nagging about bots & eval from a year ago paid off
20:46	kras	,(partition 1 (str 999))
20:46	clojurebot	((\9) (\9) (\9))
20:46	kras	does \9 here mean a char?
20:46	gfredericks	yep
20:46	bbloom	,(intern 'clojure.core 'push-thread-bindings (fn [bindings] (clojure.lang.Var/pushThreadBindings (assoc bindings #'clojure.core/read-eval true))))
20:46	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/push-thread-bindings
20:46	gfredericks	,(type \9)
20:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
20:46	gfredericks	kras ^
20:46	bbloom	, #=(inc 54)
20:46	clojurebot	55
20:46	bbloom	boom.
20:47	bbloom	,(intern 'clojure.core 'push-thread-bindings (fn [bindings] (clojure.lang.Var/pushThreadBindings (assoc bindings #'clojure.core/read-eval false))))
20:47	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/push-thread-bindings
20:47	bbloom	, #=(inc 54)
20:47	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
20:47	bbloom	,(intern 'clojure.core 'push-thread-bindings (fn [bindings] (clojure.lang.Var/pushThreadBindings (assoc bindings #'clojure.core/read-eval true))))
20:47	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/push-thread-bindings
20:47	bbloom	, #=(inc 54)
20:47	clojurebot	55
20:47	bbloom	i win.
20:47	bbloom	security. how does it work?
20:47	kras	gfredericks: thanks, I keep forgetting about type
20:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: bbloom is a read evaluator
20:47	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
20:48	devn	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(.listFiles (java.io.File. \"/\"))"))
20:48	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't resolve .listFiles>
20:49	gfredericks	I don't think #= supports most expressions
20:49	gfredericks	,#=(+ 1 2)
20:49	clojurebot	3
20:49	gfredericks	,#=((identity +) 1 2)
20:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
20:49	gfredericks	^ see
20:50	bbloom	,#=(apply (identity +) [1 2])
20:50	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
20:50	bbloom	,#=(apply + [1 2])
20:50	clojurebot	2
20:50	bbloom	heh
20:50	gfredericks	prollably just literals for argsies
20:51	kras	,(map Integer. ("9" "9" "9"))
20:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: Integer., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:51	kras	I guess I can;t do this
20:51	gfredericks	,(map #(Integer. %) ["9" "9" "9"])
20:51	clojurebot	(9 9 9)
20:52	kras	,(type #(Integer. %))
20:53	clojurebot	sandbox$eval26$fn__27
20:53	kras	what is the type of Integer.
20:53	gfredericks	,(map (fn [s] (Integer. s)) ["9" "9" "9"])
20:53	clojurebot	(9 9 9)
20:53	kras	it is a constructor
20:53	gfredericks	yes constructors aren't proper objects
20:53	amalloy	kras: it has no type, because it's not a value
20:53	devn	i wonder if we could get clojurebot to read in the code for serializable fns
20:54	devn	and then serialize a fn it wouldn't normally allow
20:54	devn	and read it
20:55	kras	so what can we classify this as, this is definitely a specail form since it understands (Integer. "9')
20:56	gfredericks	yes it's a special form
20:56	kras	special form for Java interop
20:56	gfredericks	right
20:57	kras	Okay got it, thanks a lot
21:11	jwm	can you use use at runtime after compiling?
21:11	jwm	hehe -after compiling since it is runtime :)
21:12	justin_smith	jwm: can you use what at runtime? interop?
21:13	justin_smith	yes, you can do interop at runtime
21:14	jwm	well I am trying to use "use" from a function I am calling from -main
21:14	jwm	its not going so well when I run it with lein run
21:17	jwm	is there something different about -main
21:17	jwm	like, can I not use do?
21:17	jwm	I forget what the docs mentioned about -main
21:23	gfredericks	you're running use inside a function?
21:26	jwm	yeah
21:28	gfredericks	why would you need to do that?
21:29	jwm	configurable code/module loading
21:29	gfredericks	so what do you mean by "it's not going so well"?
21:32	jwm	the function call completes and so do the use statements but they dont get sucked into my current namespace
21:33	gfredericks	how can you tell they don't?
21:33	gfredericks	the actual structure of your code is important here because use is only going to affect code compiled in the future
21:34	gfredericks	e.g. (defn f [] (use 'clojure.string) (split ...)) does not work
21:35	jwm	when I do lein run it runs the println statements in main and makes the function calls but nothing is actually run (I have a few init functions called also in the same functions)
21:36	gfredericks	you don't get any exceptions? are you sure the problem is with use?
21:36	jwm	I dont get any exceptions
21:36	jwm	well I call the function directly outside of -main from the repl and it works
21:36	gfredericks	might be a red herring; are you running something that returns a lazy seq?
21:37	jwm	yeah, I run for loop
21:37	beamso	it's something lazy that is being run in the repl but not at the command line
21:37	beamso	i think you have to use doseq instead of run
21:37	beamso	*for
21:37	gfredericks	jwm: for is not for looping
21:38	gfredericks	it's for list comprehension and it's lazy
21:40	jwm	I stradle everything with dos
21:41	jwm	I'm making another language called do ;)
21:44	Frozenlo`	that `for' problem has bitten me more than it should
21:45	jwm	yeah, I knew it was lazy too
21:45	Frozenlo`	I always test in the repl first, so I don't notice it until I've coded quite a few functions on top;
21:45	jwm	I moved my (do earlier
21:45	jwm	yeah I am 100% repl coding
21:46	gfredericks	somehow I got to a point where putting side effects in a for just feels completely unnatural
21:46	gfredericks	I think I'm just usually aware of whether I'm writing side-effect code or functional code
21:47	Frozenlock	Oh I'm aware of that. I just can't get in my head that `for' won't cut it.
21:49	jwm	we should have a lor and a normal for
21:49	jwm	lor, lazy, for, not lazy :)
21:53	jwm	that fixed it
21:53	jwm	nice to see doseq has :let also :)
21:53	gfredericks	yeah they're pretty much the same
21:54	jwm	I hadn't used doseq because it looked shitty to me based on the examples
21:54	seangrove	bbloom: How would your layout system handle dynamic resizing? i can see changing the top-level slot width, but how do nested components calculate their sizes?
21:59	gfredericks	nrepl middleware must be the one thing that's easier to test via `lein test` than at the repl
22:00	gfredericks	well probably also anything to do with repls at all
22:19	kras	Is String/join same as java.lang.String/join?
22:20	arrdem	,(use 'clojure.string)
22:20	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
22:20	arrdem	,(require 'clojure.string)
22:20	clojurebot	nil
22:20	arrdem	,(source clojure.string/join)
22:20	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
22:21	right1	,((defn a [] (a)))
22:21	clojurebot	#<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>
22:23	kras	looks like all the java.lang.* are available in the default namespace 'user'
22:31	zcaudate	Does anyone know any good meta programming books for lisp?
22:32	lurker	zcaudate: Let Over Lambda, many chapters available online
22:33	zcaudate	@lurker... Something a bit easier??
22:33	lazybot	zcaudate: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
22:36	arrdem	that.... was freakishly appropriate
22:36	Frozenlock	zcaudate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY
22:36	zcaudate	I'm looking at doing some type coercing stuff with reflection
22:38	arrdem	Frozenlock: oooh. Read SCIP, loved it, didn't know there were lectures :D
22:38	arrdem	(inc Frozenlock)
22:38	lazybot	⇒ 4
22:38	Frozenlock	Yeah, by the masters themselves :p
22:38	Frozenlock	(starts a little slow... but good nonetheless)
22:40	lurker	zcaudate: more specifically?
22:43	arrdem	"we are going to conjure our spirits in a magical language called LISP".
22:43	arrdem	priceless
22:46	zcaudate	Haha. Yeah I love that series
23:03	bbloom	seangrove: you looking at the old or new code?
23:04	bbloom	seangrove: both are old / hacked up, but i mean the one file or the repo i shared?
23:23	amalloy	let over lambda isn't really great for clojure anyway
23:25	arrdem	not for idiomatic clojure certainly... the techique of using closure'd mutable state to impact successive function invocations is kinda cute and the tricks played with macros are interesting.
23:25	arrdem	but I've never seen anyone else write or condone code written that way..
23:27	tbaldridge	arrdem: sadly I've seen codebases like that
23:27	tbaldridge	where every static value inside the defn is defined in a outer let
23:27	arrdem	that's unfortunate....
23:27	tbaldridge	(let [x {:a :foo}] (defn myfunc [m] (merge m x)))
23:27	tbaldridge	that sort of stuff ^^
23:28	arrdem	was there a reason for this style? from a code gen point of view it doesn't buy you anything..
23:28	tbaldridge	from what I understand there was some thoughts that it might be faster. IDK, I'd rather write "normal" code and then hire some guy to devote his summer to making the compiler emit better code.
23:29	arrdem	=
23:29	tbaldridge	:-P
23:29	arrdem	=D
23:29	arrdem	talked to some grad students today about my plots for making clojure run fast, and it sounds like I've got enough interesting ideas that I can get my undergrad thesis out of this project. soooo.....
23:30	tbaldridge	nice
23:30	tbaldridge	Yeah, I'll be interested in seeing where this all goes. I mean HotSpot is pretty darn good, but that doesn't mean we have to lean on it quite as much as we do.
23:32	cddr	zcaudate: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol is another classic
23:32	arrdem	After talking about ideas with my TA for about an hour today I've got kind a 6 point list of "obvious" whole program operations and tweaks to bytecode generation that should make an appreciable difference. Of course how much is gonna be half the object of the ideal final paper 'cause I have to justify that this work is unique compared to other JVM DCE and compression tools.
23:35	cddr	Has anyone thought of applying stuartsierra's component lifecycle model to docker containers?
23:35	cddr	https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
23:37	zcaudate	Oh thats really cool... thats kinda the ultimate for optimization... but i just want to be able to treat objects as maps... And to be able to coerce data between them.
23:38	zcaudate	Thanks @cddr.. are there any with clojure source code as examples?
23:40	zcaudate	@cddr.. Are you using docker with pallet?
23:40	cddr	I was thinking of something more like flynn
23:44	lurker	zcaudate: Treat objects like maps? A bit like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23110132/factor-clojure-code-setting-many-different-fields-in-a-java-object-using-a-param ?
23:54	zcaudate	Oh okay.. https://flynn.io/ but wouldn't you use docker as a container for clojure rather than the other way around?
23:55	beamso	flynn lives!
23:56	cddr	I was thinking of building something like flynn but controlled by clojure (though in reality, that's probably too ambitious for the likes of me)
23:58	beamso	forgive my ignorance but what is the point of flynn?