#clojure – 2014-04-02

2014-04-02

00:04	sritchie_	technomancy: hey, any idea what's up with that heroku issue I tweeted?
00:04	sritchie_	technomancy: seems like something's up with the Clojure buildpack
00:07	beamso	others are reporting that it's working again if you redeploy to heroku
00:07	sritchie_	ah, nice
00:07	sritchie_	will try now
00:07	beamso	the issue appears to have been with heroku
00:07	rootex	does heroku supports http-kit?
00:10	beamso	i believe the answer to that one is yes
00:15	sritchie_	rootex: yup, we've been working with it for a while
00:15	sritchie_	rootex: new relic had issues with it, if I recall
00:26	bjeanes	beamso: hey sorry about that there was a bug introduced in the Heroku API today that affected some buildpacks. It's since been reverted
00:27	beamso	bjeanes: no apology necessary
00:27	beamso	not currently using it :/
00:28	beamso	but thanks for the fix
00:31	bjeanes	sritchie_: do you have a link to that tweet?
00:31	sritchie_	bjeanes: this one? https://twitter.com/sritchie/status/451154520815312896
00:31	bjeanes	perfect, thanks
00:36	bjeanes	(just trying to track all the build packs it affected)
00:36	sritchie_	for sure
00:48	aedon	should clojurescript code in a namespace/file/module that isn't required execute when the js file is loaded?
00:53	technomancy	sritchie_: sorry, I'm not on twitter much these days; did you get it sorted out?
00:53	sritchie_	technomancy: no worries - looks like it started working again by the time I got back from dinner
00:53	technomancy	cool, glad to hear it
02:05	amalloy	aedon: cljs code in a namespace that isn't required shouldn't exist at all, google closure will eliminate all the dead code, right?
02:10	aedon	amalloy: I'm using simple mode for development purposes, so I assume that doesn't apply
02:54	sm0ke	tpop just killed it with timl
04:22	petron	why does the or macro need a let binding?
04:22	petron	why can't (or x y) just expand to (if x x y) ?
04:22	petron	instead of (let [or 158 x] (if or__158 or__158 y)) ?
04:23	Guest12324	I've been trying whole day to make google sign in work using oauth2 with no luck
04:24	Guest12324	I followed the tutorial on this page https://coderwall.com/p/y9w4-g but can't figure out what is request
04:24	Guest12324	can anyone please help?
04:24	sm0ke	oauth2 playground was helpful i remember once i was doing this
04:25	sm0ke	https://developers.google.com/oauthplayground/
04:25	Guest12324	I tried that too. at this link https://developers.google.com/oauthplayground/
04:26	sm0ke	Guest12324: i remeber just copying the access token from this ui into my code
04:26	Guest12324	this is the error I keep getting cannot find code parameter
04:26	sm0ke	it works pretty fine after that
04:26	Guest12324	I also looked at the source code over here https://github.com/DerGuteMoritz/clj-oauth2/blob/master/src/clj_oauth2/client.clj
04:27	Guest12324	but this (oauth2/get-access-token google-com-oauth2 (:params request) auth-req)
04:27	Guest12324	looks different from this
04:27	Guest12324	(defn get-access-token [endpoint & [params {expected-state :state expected-scope :scope}]] (let [{:keys [state error]} params] (cond (string? error) (throw (OAuth2Exception. (:error_description params) error)) (and expected-state (not (= state expected-state))) (throw (OAuth2StateMismatchException. (format "Expected state %s but got %s" state e
04:27	Guest12324	i'll try it
04:32	clgv	petron: because then the expression "x" would be computed twice
04:32	petron	I see, so the let binding computes the form of x?
04:34	clgv	petron: yes the let binding binds the result of evaluating expression `x` to a local name that is used as predicate of the `if` and as return value in the "then case"
04:35	clgv	petron: thus, `or` is even safe for side effects since they are not evaluated twice (provided the context is not an operation on a ref or atom)
04:35	petron	cool, thanks.
06:47	CookedGryphon	Is clojuredocs ever going to be brought up to date?
06:48	CookedGryphon	It's really annoying, because it's one of the top hits for most clojure searches, and it's now painfully out of date missing several really useful commands
07:06	mpenet	they should just improve the official site imho, stick disqus or something similar on every function (with separate page per function too) and be done with it
07:06	mpenet	there were a few attempts to improve/update clojuredocs but I think it's all dormant
07:06	mpenet	not to say dead
07:08	Foxboron	Should have been clojure april foolks
07:08	Foxboron	"clojuredocs update!"
07:08	clgv	Foxboron: you would have disappointed a lot of people badly ;)
07:09	Foxboron	clgv: i know :)
07:10	CookedGryphon	All I really want is a site which listens for clojars and clojure artifact uploads and runs codox over them
07:10	CookedGryphon	and then like you say, disqus or something for comments
07:11	augustl	as long as I have the cheat sheet I'm happy ;)
07:11	augustl	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet that is
07:13	CookedGryphon	there is a cool project one of my colleagues did called cloc
07:13	CookedGryphon	which scans your classpath and generates a documentation website for all the libraries you're using
07:13	CookedGryphon	with local search too
07:13	CookedGryphon	but I never think to run it
07:13	kras	clj-antlr question, my "actions" in the grammar file does not have any affect on the sequence produced as output. Any idea?
07:14	CookedGryphon	I wonder... could I make lein run that in the background whenever i set off a repl connection?
07:15	clgv	CookedGryphon: yes you can
07:15	clgv	CookedGryphon: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PLUGINS.md#hooks
07:16	beamso	this cloc : https://github.com/jaley/cloc ?
07:17	CookedGryphon	yeah that one
07:18	beamso	the google for cloc lead me to gizmo, which i'd never heard of or seen before : https://github.com/clojurewerkz/gizmo
08:40	katox	CookedGryphon: I'd say comments and examples on valuable to discover pitfalls and less known fn usages, it's certainly better to head onto clojuredocs than to stackoverflow directly ;)
08:41	katox	what's stopping the update of the current site? what features are that badly needed?
08:42	CookedGryphon	well, documentation for a version released in the last 3 years
08:42	CookedGryphon	I think they started a rewrite
08:42	CookedGryphon	it was all done in rails and then they started to rewrite it in clojure/script
08:42	CookedGryphon	and i don't know how that effort went/is going
08:54	pepijndevos	I can;t imagine why I've never come across this, but how do you get the last n chars from a string? Preferably without making it a seq first.
08:55	katox	CookedGryphon: found some activity about 4-7 months ago (https://github.com/clojuredocs/web/commits/master, https://github.com/clojuredocs/doc-extractor/commits/master)
08:55	opqdonut	pepijndevos: String.substring
08:56	opqdonut	pepijndevos: oh, right, there's also clojure.core/subs
08:56	clgv	pepijndevos: clojure.core/subs
08:56	katox	CookedGryphon: old cdocs seems to be rails2, I wonder if it's the extractor what's blocking the progress
08:56	pepijndevos	(subs s (- (count s) 2))
08:57	pepijndevos	good enough, but ot as nice as the maybe nonsens str[-2:] in Python
09:06	clgv	pepijndevos: write a wrapper fn that implements that behavior. should be pretty easy
09:08	pepijndevos	yea...
09:34	lgs32a	Is there a collection of useful om components already?
09:35	lgs32a	I saw an empty repository on swanodettes gh
09:45	dnolen_	lgs32a: there's only a few things at this point - as people build more with it I think you'll see more useful om components over time
09:47	lgs32a	dnolen_: thank you.
09:47	gtrak	is there a scrolling table component yet, or an existing one that's easy to integrate with om?
09:48	lgs32a	thats what I was looking for too
09:48	gtrak	I might try to reinvent it, but I don't really know what I'm doing yet with regards to UI work :-)
09:48	dnolen_	gtrak: not that I'm aware of, a fixed cell height one would be really easy - variable cell height would be more challenging but also I think less commonly used
09:49	gtrak	ah, fixed cell would be fine by me.
09:50	gtrak	would om/react handle the diffs intelligently say on a scroll-down? Maybe it's good enough out of the box, honestly haven't tried yet.
09:51	teslanick	You could delegate to an existing JS library. reify IWillMount, IWillUpdate and just step into JS interop.
09:52	teslanick	And IWillUnmount to clean up correctly.
09:52	gtrak	yea, good, I also wanted to know if that sort of thing was doable :-)
09:52	dnolen_	gtrak: it should do two things IMO, railroad its content (do not bother rendering more than can be seen) and be able to load contents lazily
09:53	dnolen_	delegating to an existing library could work but not ideal IMO for many reasons.
09:54	gtrak	I'll give it a try, I'm familiar with the adobe flex implementation and all the caching of elements at the top and such, but that was like 5 years ago, and doesn't fit with my understanding of react/om so far.
09:55	dnolen_	gtrak: conceptually won't be much different
10:07	teslanick	Yeah, delegating to an existing library is kinda kludgy. But a really good datatable is a hard problem, and one that's been solved to some extent already.
10:09	dnolen_	teslanick: it's really not that hard, and most of what's out there is awful and certainly not designed for working efficiently immutable data structures
10:27	sm0ke	is it possible to :aot :all without evaluation of global definitions like (def conn (connect ..))
10:28	sm0ke	during compile only functions like lein compile, install etc
10:46	technomancy	sm0ke: you could do (when-not compiling-files ...) but it's pretty sketchy
10:50	sqldier	sm0ke: you may be looking for delay
10:50	sqldier	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.3.0/clojure.core/delay
10:52	gtrak	sm0ke: the use-case as presented is just a bad design :-)
10:53	gtrak	don't do that, use like 'component' or something: https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
10:55	gtrak	we've got a sizable application that just uses a simple hash-map for the same purpose.
11:11	deadghost	I can get data as csv, json, or xml
11:11	deadghost	should I prefer any one of them
11:11	deadghost	are or they all about the same
11:13	teslanick	csv is the easiest to parse, json is probably the most robust. xml is probably a waste of bytes. :)
11:14	sm0ke	yea delays and compile-files was what i was using till now.
11:14	sm0ke	delay just adds overhead of unnecessary derefrencing
11:14	sm0ke	compile-file is ok , but not very pretty
11:15	gtrak	you can make it prettier with a macro, but every time we've used a shared resource like that it eventually had to be refactored for injection.
11:16	gtrak	and that was at the point where it was already a huge hassle to work with the var version.
11:16	gtrak	for mocking and such
11:18	sm0ke	gtrak: how do you solve this with hash map?
11:19	gtrak	sm0ke: you just write the functions to take an extra argument, then pass around the connection, initializing it somewhere further up.
11:20	gtrak	just push the problem somewhere else, basically is what I'm suggesting :-). Have a central thing that deals with lifecycles of shared resources.
11:21	gtrak	that isn't a clojure namespace.
11:22	bodie_	gtrak, that demo you linked me about using mutexes to lock framerate to a tight precision
11:22	gtrak	yea
11:22	bodie_	I was looking over it, quil had some stuff removed so I wasn't able to try it out
11:22	gtrak	oh really? it worked for me a bit ago.
11:22	bodie_	hum
11:22	gtrak	just needs a lein run, I'll try it.
11:22	bodie_	quil.dynamic I think was taken out
11:22	bodie_	okay, nice :)
11:23	gtrak	yea, but, it should be using an old artifact.
11:23	bodie_	I need to do more learning before I can piece things together on my own, sadly
11:23	bodie_	ah
11:25	gtrak	bodie_: yea, I did a lein run and it worked just fine.
11:26	bodie_	ah, I see
11:26	gtrak	besides the bugs of course
11:26	gtrak	sometimes the balls spin around each other b/c the collision detection's a bit wonky :-)
11:27	gtrak	or they miss entirely
11:27	gtrak	but you just wanted the timer part :-)
11:27	gtrak	the simulation's running at 500fps and the drawing's at 60 here
11:27	bodie_	that's awesome
11:31	gtrak	bodie_: maybe you tried it when clojars was down :-)
11:33	jjl`	does clojars go down very often?
11:33	mdrogalis	Not really.
11:38	hyPiRion	what, Clojars down?
11:38	gtrak	couple days ago
11:41	gtrak	bodie_: I made a vid a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415OTzYEXsk
11:41	gtrak	WASD applies constant acceleration
11:42	bodie_	sweet!
11:43	dnolen_	cemerick: btw this new thing that prevents using lein based on version ranges is insanely annoying
11:43	dnolen_	cemerick: is there a way to turn this off? it's basically hell for anyone that works on ClojureScript itself
11:43	dnolen_	s/lein/lein-cljsbuild
11:44	cemerick	dnolen_: you're referring to the NPE you mentioned in a recent ML post?
11:45	dnolen_	cemerick: no I get a useless warning message "You're using [lein-cljsbuild "1.0.2"], which is known to work well with ClojureScript 0.0-2014 - 0.0-2173" then it aborts building
11:46	cemerick	dnolen_: the compatibility ranges are there for a reason; there are actual incompatibilities that cause problems silently otherwise. The reason why you're not using 1.0.3 has been addressed in the latest 1.0.4-SNAPSHOT.
11:47	dnolen_	cemerick: there needs to be a way to turn this off for anyone that works on the compiler
11:47	dnolen_	if I know that 1.0.2 works then I want to use it again existing projects with whatever released version of cljsbuild exists
11:48	dnolen_	the current behavior is insane for library developers who contribute to ClojureScript
11:48	cemerick	dnolen_: the alternative is what was happening before: things would go wrong, and it the known-working combinations of cljsbuild and ClojureScript was tribal knowledge.
11:49	dnolen_	cemerick: ^ I asked for a way to disable that's all
11:49	dnolen_	I understand the utility for normal users
11:51	cemerick	dnolen_: I'll consider adding a flag you can set in your :user profile; but, I don't currently see how you (or I, or any other contributor) doesn't benefit the same as "normal" users. If you're working on CLJS head, use the latest cljsbuild. If not, the rev of cljsbuild should correspond based on the known compatibility matrix.
11:52	cemerick	Doing otherwise will inevitably lead to API conflicts, or silent emission of strange/incorrect compilation output.
11:52	cemerick	Expertise doesn't exempt anyone.
11:53	dnolen_	cemerick: grrr is all I can say. This assumes cljsbuild head works, if doesn't and I know that 1.0.2 does work like I do now then what?
11:54	cemerick	dnolen_: In the current situation, 1.0.2 simply does _not_ work with CLJS head. It's not an API incompatibility, but certain things just won't work as expected (in this case, :libs, :foreign-libs, externs).
11:54	dnolen_	cemerick: but it does work for libraries (not applications that use those options)
11:54	dnolen_	I'm sorry hand holding stuff needs flags IMO
12:08	technomancy	if only there were a way compatibility concerns could be communicated
12:08	technomancy	perhaps by a series of numbers
12:09	technomancy	one might even separate them using dots
12:09	llasram	technomancy: April Fool's Day was yesterday, man
12:09	technomancy	llasram: dang, can't even blame time zones
12:11	cemerick	dnolen_: hopefully this will be satisfactory? https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/305
12:11	dnolen_	cemerick: thanks
12:12	hiredman	I thought core projects had to use maven, what is this lein-cljsbuild stuff?
12:14	benmoss	what is the deal with versioning, what black magic is used to come up with something like 0.1.267.0-0d7780-alpha
12:15	benmoss	thats a core async version
12:15	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:15	rasmusto	semver + sha1 + branch?
12:15	technomancy	clojurebot: neither do I, clojurebot. neither do I.
12:15	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:15	clgv	rasmusto: semver is a pretty wild guess here :P
12:16	benmoss	because releases have to be cut for every commit or something?
12:16	Bronsa	0.1.<commit-count>.0-<commit-sha>-alpha
12:16	rasmusto	guess based on seeing numbers with dots only
12:16	rasmusto	oh, commit count makes more sense for that third number
12:17	clgv	hopefully there comes a "stable" time for both of these libraries with actual version numbers ;)
12:18	benmoss	and the lion will lay down with the lamb
12:18	rootex	benmoss: it means "we don't know if what we are doing is right"
12:18	coventry	What could cause the austin repl to be unresponsive, even though the js console tells me that the initial XHR transactions with the austin server are coming through just fine?
12:21	clgv	rootex: that's what I thought as well
12:21	clgv	rootex: but you get told otherwise when you ask for the reason of the permanent alpha ;)
12:31	coventry	jstack tells me there's a thread blocked on a promise at the line (send-for-eval @(open-exchange session-id) session-id form return-value-fn) in austin:send_for_eval. So I guess somehow it's not hearing back from the client.
12:57	amalloy	(inc clojurebot)
12:57	lazybot	⇒ 40
12:59	mdrogalis	Raynes: #= club, #yolo
13:00	Raynes	swaaaaag
13:01	amalloy	clojurebot: twitter is that way; this is #clojure
13:01	clojurebot	Roger.
13:01	llasram	TIL "swag" in the sense of "swagger" vs "random loot"
13:08	bodie_	llasram, there's also "swag" as in drapes :P
13:09	llasram	Whoa
13:10	bodie_	right
13:10	gfredericks	TimMc: https://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/issues/24
13:14	maxthoursie	Nowadays I get an internal exception everytime I see a sentence in parens where the first word is not a function :)
13:15	rasmusto	maxthoursie: the :) looks like an unbalanced closing paren to me :(
13:15	justin_smith	maxthoursie: would a verb suffice?
13:15	maxthoursie	rasmusto: yes, that's another problem. it's almost a keyword though
13:16	justin_smith	sorry, that is to say: (suffice? (would verb))
13:16	maxthoursie	justin_smith: sometimes, then I continue trying to parse arguments
13:17	maxthoursie	I'm also tempted to define a few functions that would make a sentence valid
13:19	maxthoursie	from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure (pronounced like "closure") (called "syntax quote") (including hashmaps, sets and lists)
13:19	maxthoursie	agree that it does look like function calls
13:20	rasmusto	,:o
13:20	clojurebot	:o
13:24	justin_smith	,:(
13:24	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
13:24	justin_smith	ahh
13:24	rasmusto	clojurebot seems happy about that exception
13:25	maxthoursie	:>
13:25	justin_smith	,:﹙
13:25	clojurebot	:?
13:25	justin_smith	he is OK with a smaller frown, just not a big one
13:25	justin_smith	&:﹙
13:25	lazybot	⇒ :﹙
13:25	rasmusto	##:
13:26	rasmusto	is that one of those weird spaces again?
13:26	blake__	Problem: Given an arbitrary set of items and a length, create a set of all vectors of those items at that length. Like #{:black :white} 2 would give #{:black :black} #{:black :white} #{:white :black} #{:white :white}. This should be easy, I know, but I'm blanking.
13:26	CookedGryphon	,:（
13:26	clojurebot	:?
13:26	blake__	Wait, those should all be vectors, not sets. =P
13:26	justin_smith	rasmusto: small paren. I once went through all the unicode symbols that emacs recognizes as being matched delimiters, and we could have data literals for hundreds of unique data structures!
13:26	rasmusto	justin_smith: hah, my font shows it as "?"
13:27	rasmusto	looks like a variant of :P
13:27	maxthoursie	blake__: use a for
13:27	justin_smith	rasmusto: in emacs, M-x describe-char is my "what the hell is this unicode" tool
13:27	CookedGryphon	'(= :❪ :❨)
13:28	CookedGryphon	,(= :❪ :❨)
13:28	rasmusto	,(for [c1 '[b w] c2 '[b w]] [c1 c2])
13:28	clojurebot	false
13:28	clojurebot	([b b] [b w] [w b] [w w])
13:28	blake__	maxthoursie: I thought about for, but I guess I'm not seeing how to make it an arbitrary length.
13:28	amalloy	rasmusto: that doesn't scale to not knowing N
13:28	justin_smith	rasmusto: similarly M-x insert-char (C-x 8 <return>) allows inserting any unicode by name (with * for tab completion by glob)
13:28	maxthoursie	blake__: ah, sorry, missed that part
13:28	rasmusto	oh right
13:28	blake__	maxthoursie: np...
13:29	blake__	nested for?
13:29	maxthoursie	blake__: clojure.math.combinatorics?
13:30	amalloy	blake__: #{:black :black} isn't a legal set
13:30	amalloy	so you probably want a list/seq
13:30	justin_smith	he mentioned above he actually meant two element vectors
13:31	amalloy	&((fn choices [items n] (if (zero? n) [[]] (for [choice (choices items (dec n)), item items] (conj choice item)))) '#{black white} 3)
13:31	lazybot	⇒ ([black black black] [black black white] [black white black] [black white white] [white black black] [white black white] [white white black] [white white white])
13:31	amalloy	this is a pretty wasteful way to compute that, i think, but it works
13:33	dnolen_	stuartsierra: hey any chance we could get that 1.6.0 zip up? ClojureScript's bootstrap script relies on it is the reason I asked originally.
13:33	amalloy	no, i guess it's fine. not doing much unnecessary work
13:33	amalloy	blake__: ^ is a solution, if you missed it
13:34	fro-	hi folks!
13:34	fro-	Is there a (preferably native) Clojure binding to OrientDB, that supports the latest version of binary API?
13:35	justin_smith	fro-: if there is a java binding, java interop in clojure is very easy to do
13:35	maxthoursie	dnolen_: I'd like to hear how you think hoplon relates to om
13:36	justin_smith	https://github.com/eduardoejp/clj-orient fro-: this is what you want I think
13:36	dnolen_	maxthoursie: there are just different approaches, however you could easily embed an Om component into a Hoplon application as far as I can tell.
13:36	dnolen_	s/there/they
13:36	justin_smith	found it on orientdb's web page
13:37	fro-	I wrote question in detail there https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22817968/is-there-a-preferably-native-clojure-binding-to-orientdb-that-supports-the-la
13:37	maxthoursie	dnolen_: right. Do you think it's possible to get hoplon to the same speed as om?
13:38	dnolen_	maxthoursie: I can't speak to that. It's not like Om is the fastest possible thing in the world - but it's fast enough for many tasks and certainly faster than more naive JS solutions.
13:38	bodie_	justin_smith, fro- -- OrientDB has a native Java API by default, so maybe that's the way to go
13:39	justin_smith	bodie_: well, someone did go and make a clojure binding, that likely makes it easier
13:39	maxthoursie	dnolen_: Om's speed is thanks to (via react) minimizing the amount of mutations to the dom, right?
13:39	dnolen_	maxthoursie: the speed comes from faster equality checks via immutable data
13:40	sm0ke	i have a feeling than most of the 'clojure bindings' are more of a hurdle than a facility
13:40	maxthoursie	dnolen_: right, that's what om brings over pure react
13:40	dnolen_	maxthoursie: over the speed provided by React by minimizing and batching DOM updates
13:40	rasmusto	I made a thing: ##(eval (let [cs [:b :w] var-names (map (comp symbol #(str "v" %)) (range)) binding-vector (interleave var-names (repeat (count cs) cs))] `(for [~@binding-vector] [~@(take (count cs) var-names)])))
13:40	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
13:40	rasmusto	I made a thing: ##(let [cs [:b :w] var-names (map (comp symbol #(str "v" %)) (range)) binding-vector (interleave var-names (repeat (count cs) cs))] `(for [~@binding-vector] [~@(take (count cs) var-names)]))
13:40	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/for [v0 [:b :w] v1 [:b :w]] [v0 v1])
13:41	maxthoursie	dnolen_: I should probably read up more on hoplon, but I got the impression that they replace the dom a lot
13:41	fro-	I just found no good alternatives to orient db.. Sounds like I will do it myself (write a lib)
13:41	bbloom	maxthoursie: and react's underlying speed comes from the "batching" dnolen mentioned, but specifically it's from letting the browser engine operate in parallel by not forcing invalidation to read from the dom
13:41	justin_smith	fro-: wait, you saw the clojure binding and java binding right? you can use either directly
13:41	maxthoursie	bbloom: ah, that's why it's expensive to read from it?
13:41	justin_smith	what lib would you need to write?
13:42	maxthoursie	bbloom: and hoplon doesn't do that either, right
13:42	bbloom	maxthoursie: think about it like get pixel and set pixel when drawing. if you have an in memory buffer, get pixel is cheap, but if you want to "get pixel" from your graphics card, you need to wait for the graphics card to finish, then send data back to you. every read from the dom causes a synchronization
13:42	maxthoursie	yup, got it
13:42	bbloom	maxthoursie: i don't know much about hoplon, i don't subscribe to the "spreadsheets == UIs" idea
13:42	bbloom	i also generally dislike the "mini language" approach to defining reactive cells
13:43	fro-	justin_smith: yes, but I will have a temptation to write a lib, during work with, I guess
13:43	fro-	justin_smith: a wrapper lib
13:43	justin_smith	because the existing wrapper sucks?
13:44	maxthoursie	bbloom: true. I'm skeptical but I have a feeling I should learn more about it before judging to much
13:45	fro-	justin_smith: in particular
13:45	fro-	justin_smith: it just does'nt work
13:46	fro-	justin_smith: but maybe I'll tend to hack existing lib
13:47	amalloy	i think if you try to write your own wrapper without first getting experience using the java bindings, you'll produce something that someone in irc will say "it just doesn't work" about
13:49	sveri	hi, i have two lists (:key1 :key2) and (:sum1 :sum2) and i would like to create a list of maps from it like this: {:key1 {:summary :sum1} :key2 {:summary :sum2} }, how would i do that?
13:49	fro-	there is just no alternatives to orientdb.. My requirements is: ebbeddable, document-oriented/graph, popular..
13:51	rasmusto	sveri: you wrote your output as a single map, not a list of maps by the way
13:51	justin_smith	fro-: seconding amalloy, figure out how to do it with interop, once it all works, then consider a wrapper lib
13:51	justin_smith	*making your own wrapper lib
13:51	sveri	rasmusto: you are right, sorry, i meant a single map
13:51	michaniskin	maxthoursie: people have embedded angular in hoplon, so i don't see why react wouldn't work, too
13:52	sm0ke	,(zipmap '(:key1 :key2) (map #(assoc {} :summary %) '(:sum1 :sum2)))
13:52	sm0ke	oops
13:52	sm0ke	,(zipmap '(:key1 :key2) (map #(assoc {} :summary %) '(:sum1 :sum2))))
13:52	clojurebot	{:key2 {:summary :sum2}, :key1 {:summary :sum1}}
13:52	lgs32a	,(zipmap '(:key1 :key2) (map (partial-hash-map :summary) '(:sum1 :sum2)))
13:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: partial-hash-map in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:52	rasmusto	sveri: you can use (into {} ...) on a list comprehension that produces vectors of keys and maps like what you want
13:52	maxthoursie	michaniskin: huh, what's left of hoplon then?
13:52	rasmusto	or do something like that
13:52	lgs32a	,(zipmap '(:key1 :key2) (map (partial hash-map :summary) '(:sum1 :sum2)))
13:52	clojurebot	{:key2 {:summary :sum2}, :key1 {:summary :sum1}}
13:53	michaniskin	maxthoursie: i mean you can have both in the same application
13:53	michaniskin	maxthoursie: for example if you want to use something that's already written in angular
13:53	sveri	lgs32a: sm0ke rasmusto thank you all, that looks nice :-)
13:54	michaniskin	maxthoursie: or jquery plugins that are already written, or om components
13:54	rasmusto	in retrospect, I like zipmap more for your case
13:55	maxthoursie	michaniskin: right, yeah they should be possible to combine, sure
14:02	TimMc	gfredericks: Neato.
14:05	fro-	justin_smith: I'll follow exactly this way, if I don't find alternative
14:06	justin_smith	as mentioned before, interop in clojure is pretty seamless, and translating existing java examples is usually easy once you figure out a few rules
14:09	fro-	justin_smith: I now, already used interop
14:12	blake__	Would a macro make sense?
14:14	amalloy	blake__: for what? did you miss all the answers to your earlier question?
14:15	blake__	Hmmm. I missed cookgryphon's but it also requires me to know the number of elements.
14:15	blake__	Anyway, I think I can use clojure.math.combinatorics.
14:17	rasmusto	blake__: don't use my macro, I posted it as a joke :p
14:18	blake__	heheh
14:18	amalloy	blake__: did you see mine? it's a function that does everything you need
14:19	amalloy	combinatorics is fine, and it does include exactly the function you need, calling it selections
14:19	blake__	No, I'm looking at combinations in combinatorics, and it's not that simple. I'm surprised.
14:19	blake__	amalloy: No!
14:19	blake__	Sorry--I didn't have "join" messages turned off on hexchat so I'm wading through a sea of noise.
14:20	amalloy	&((fn choices [items n] (if (zero? n) [[]] (for [choice (choices items (dec n)), item items] (conj choice item)))) '#{black white} 3)
14:20	lazybot	⇒ ([black black black] [black black white] [black white black] [black white white] [white black black] [white black white] [white white black] [white white white])
14:20	amalloy	so combinatorics is good, and presumably more efficient, but you also would benefit from knowing how to do this kind of recursive lazy thing yourself
14:21	blake__	amalloy: Oh, I like that better.
14:21	blake__	I don't need efficiency. I'm doing this to learn.
14:21	blake__	So, I guess I should say, I don't need efficiency, until I do. =P
14:22	amalloy	blake__: the pattern of using a two-layer for-comprehension to explore a tree of choices is quite widely applicable, if you tilt your head a bit to turn more things into trees
14:22	amalloy	here, the tree is N levels deep, each of which has (count coll) identical choices
14:23	blake__	amalloy: Yeah, that's the thing I'm trying to get my head around.
14:23	blake__	amalloy: Thinking in terms of data structures.
14:23	blake__	amalloy: Is that & at the front a typo?
14:24	amalloy	no, that's asking lazybot to eval it
14:24	blake__	oh! cool.
14:24	blake__	&(+ 3 4)
14:24	lazybot	⇒ 7
14:27	amalloy	i wonder what the general version of this two-part for-comprehension pattern looks like. i think it's kinda the dual of tree-seq, right? seq-tree or something
14:28	blake__	tree-seq
14:34	blake__	Wait...how come this works with "black" and "white", as opposed to ":black" and ":white"? Why doesn't it try to eval "black" and "white"?
14:35	amalloy	notice i quoted the set: '#{black white}
14:35	amalloy	#{black white} would have failed because it tries to eval the symbols
14:36	blake__	Ah, okay... phew
14:52	mikerod	There are no special rules on arity-overloading macros right?
14:53	mikerod	Seems like it'd evaluate as expected.
14:55	trptcolin	mikerod: whoa, i’d never seen one of those before, but i suspect sure you’re right
14:56	tos9	0~/38
14:56	Bronsa	trptcolin: `or`?
14:57	trptcolin	Bronsa: heh, i stand corrected of course
14:57	Bronsa	:)
14:59	trptcolin	my memory is even shorter than i thought. i count 6 of them in my in-progress book on macros
14:59	trptcolin	welp
15:08	mikerod	trptcolin: :P
15:08	mikerod	trptcolin: well, clojure.core/or and clojure.core/and
15:08	mikerod	are examples
15:09	mikerod	however, I was wondering if there is any sneaky stuff
15:09	mikerod	like
15:10	mikerod	(defmacro overloaded-mac ([x] (overloaded-mac 1 2)) ([x y] [x y]))
15:10	mikerod	So, where it immediately calls the same macro again during expansion, but this seems to work and I don't see why it wouldn't
15:10	mikerod	I just didn't see the question pop up through a search, so was curious
15:10	Bronsa	mikerod: no, that doesn't work
15:10	mikerod	Bronsa: oh, just saw that you said `or` right away :P
15:11	hiredman	`(overloaded-mac ...) is the way to do it
15:11	Bronsa	mikerod: it only compiles fine, but if you try to invoke (overloaded-mac 1) you'll see it doesn't work
15:11	Raynes	So Linode just had a heart attack.
15:12	mikerod	Bronsa: I thought it might not work due to the implicit args to a macro
15:12	mikerod	Bronsa: very weird too. it fails when I call it at first, but if I re call `defmacro` it works... wat
15:13	Bronsa	mikerod: that's some weird behaviour with redefining a var and metadata
15:13	llasram	Oh haha, because the first time it's not a macro
15:13	llasram	Hilarity!
15:13	Bronsa	llasram: exactly
15:13	mikerod	yuck
15:13	mikerod	so, the take away is; it is a bad idea?
15:14	Bronsa	if defmacro was defined by attaching :meta on the var instead of defining it as a function and later invoking .setMacro, that definition would fail at compile time
15:14	Bronsa	by attaching :macro to the meta of the var*
15:14	Bronsa	mikerod: yes, don't do it. won't work.
15:15	mikerod	alternatives?
15:15	mikerod	(defmacro overloaded-mac ([x] `(overloaded-mac ~x 2)) ([x y] [x y])) ?
15:15	Bronsa	mikerod: yes, what hiredman said
15:15	mikerod	Bronsa: ugh! I didn't see that
15:15	mikerod	hiredman: thanks for the answer I missed...
15:17	Raynes	Refheap has returned from the bowels of Linode hell.
15:18	Bronsa	lazybot too
15:18	Raynes	Yep.
15:18	Raynes	It was a restart.
15:18	Raynes	We had nearly a year of uptime.
15:18	Raynes	I'm angry.
15:18	Bronsa	:(
15:18	Raynes	But hey, hardware problems.
15:18	Raynes	Can't live with them, can't live without them.
15:18	Raynes	Now... 4clojure.
15:18	Raynes	Can I even remember how to start that thing?
15:19	cbp	lein run eheheh
15:19	Raynes	cbp: See, that'd be great but it's a tad more complicated because 4clojure crashes like three times a day and need things to bring it back up.
15:20	cbp	that's scary. Why does it crash so much?
15:20	Raynes	cbp: Because it allows people to execute code on it.
15:20	xeqi	if only there were processes on linux that would start and restart services..
15:20	Raynes	And people are assholes.
15:21	Raynes	There is only so much sandboxing one can do.
15:21	Raynes	xeqi: It isn't really that simple.
15:21	cbp	ah
15:21	Raynes	xeqi: 4Clojure doesn't just crash, it becomes unresponsive to http requests and keeps chugging.
15:21	Raynes	So you have to be a little more clever and restart it.
15:22	xeqi	Raynes: true, I let my snark get out there. I'm not looking forward to when clojars's vps has a hardware failure
15:22	Raynes	But we have a working process to do that, it's just I didn't make that process and am figuring out how to use it.
15:22	Raynes	Also, things are SUPPOSED to start at startup.
15:22	Raynes	But the problem is testing our scripts to do that requires restarting :P
15:22	Raynes	Nobody got time for that
15:23	Raynes	This whole server needs to get scrapped and a new instance built, but... nobody got time for that.
15:23	xeqi	heh, I've become a bigger fan of devops stuff after running into these problems too
15:23	Raynes	Likewise.
15:24	xeqi	Raynes: I don't suppose the other person just used monit, and if you start that service it'll bring everything up?
15:25	Raynes	No.
15:25	Raynes	It's a short shell script that doesn't appear to be working very well.
15:27	aedon	Raynes: sounds like a job for haproxy and some docker containers -- just make a new contiainer when one fails to respond
15:28	Raynes	Sure, but this also should just be workign
15:29	Raynes	Like I said, there are a ton of things that need to be fixed with this server.
15:29	Raynes	Things learned by making this server suck.
15:29	Raynes	I just need to find a weekend to spend moving to a new vps.
15:33	Raynes	There we go.
15:33	Raynes	Mongo wasn't awake.
15:33	cbp	Also need to port it to rethinkdb =D
15:34	Raynes	The beauty of these projects is how open the source is :P
15:35	carson	Does anyone have experience calling netlogo headless from clojure? Can't get the example posted here: https://github.com/NetLogo/NetLogo/wiki/Controlling-API working.
15:35	Raynes	cbp: Someone once ported refheap to datomic.
15:36	Raynes	But I was extremely apprehensive about that.
15:36	Raynes	I'd love to move to rethink, postgres, etc.
15:36	cbp	datomic would probably be pretty expensive
15:36	Raynes	But I wouldn't love it so much as to really be motivated to do it myself.
15:36	Raynes	Well, I could run the free stuff.
15:36	Raynes	But... like...
15:36	Raynes	Open source and free plz
15:37	bodie_	If clojars is running on a vps, they better damn well have at least a good backup
15:38	bodie_	I worked at DigitalOcean, the failure rate of SSDs gets ridiculous
15:38	bodie_	if you're using vps, instances should be seen as disposable
15:41	ordnungswidrig1	why doesn't the emacs repl suppres exceptions from time to time
15:41	ordnungswidrig1	if have it in *e but i want it to popup in a buffer?!
15:43	ordnungswidrig	I meant "why does emacs suppress exceptions in the REPL"
15:55	ordnungswidrig	bodie_: how does the ssd failure show up for a typical linux process? io errors? are they silent?
15:58	bodie_	ordnungswidrig, everything was on raid5 so usually failures would be detected and taken care of
15:59	ordnungswidrig	bodie_: so a regular vps there is on raid5?
15:59	bodie_	if you have a failure without a hotswap, then you enter a degraded state where things are still functioning, mostly, and then if you have another failure basically everything is just majorly hosed
15:59	bodie_	the blades are, yes
16:00	ordnungswidrig	so this is opaque for me as a DO user
16:01	bodie_	right. if you suddenly notice unusually bad performance, you're either on a node with a noisy neighbor, or you're on a node with a bad disk
16:02	bodie_	almost all severe (beyond degraded state) disk failures (quite rare) were catastrophic to data on the node, though we did manage to recover a couple of nodes which had that condition
16:02	ordnungswidrig	bodie_: you mean when the ssd failed, it failed complete?
16:02	bodie_	right
16:03	ordnungswidrig	i like to have multiple nodes anyways. in multiple datacenters. on multiple continents.
16:03	bodie_	of course, when you have 2000 nodes, it probably wouldn't be obvious if one was halfway failed. I think I saw that happen once.
16:03	ordnungswidrig	still working on multiple planets and solar systems
16:03	bodie_	yes. that is good :)
16:03	bodie_	cheap cloud = a great reason to have failovers
16:03	ordnungswidrig	latency hurts for the former two
16:03	ordnungswidrig	bodie_: that's how digital ocean attracted me :)
16:04	bodie_	hardware failures can and do happen on all vps providers, so I think DO makes the most sense bang-per-buck :)
16:04	bodie_	they have their faults, but they also have a great team
16:07	ordnungswidrig	to get on topic again, does anybody have experience on running clojure servers as docker containers?
16:08	ordnungswidrig	I made one based on an ubuntu base as well as on a stripped down busybox one. I had some problems with non-ending containers and zombies because of lingering standard out file descriptors or like that.
16:21	technomancy	clojars does have offsite backup fwiw
16:25	ordnungswidrig	technomancy: +1
16:25	technomancy	not my doing =)
16:25	coventry	korma.core/as-sql will return the sql prepared query string. Is there any tool which will return the values which need to passed with the string to get it to work with exec-raw? E.g., how can I reconstruct the [71] given q in the following snippet? (let [q (-> (korm/select* db) (korm/where (= :id 71)))] (korma.core/exec-raw [(korma.core/as-sql q) [71]] :results))
16:28	amalloy	coventry: i'm not sure why you'd want to. if you're trusting korma to build the query for you, you might as well trust it to do the parameter substitution right
16:30	coventry	What I really want is a generic way to add "for update" to the end of a select. I'm open to suggestions for alternative ways to achieve that.
16:30	Frozenlo`	technomancy: Is there a special namespace I need to give to my tests? Each time I try to run them, it says it can't find them on my classpath :-/ As it is I follow this model: <main-project-name>.test.db.basics
16:31	technomancy	Frozenlock: no, there's nothing special needed
16:31	coventry	amalloy: So if there's a way to get the query with the parameters substituted in, that would be perfect, actually.
16:31	Frozenlock	technomancy: ok, thanks
16:31	technomancy	Frozenlock: changing :test-paths could mess it up
16:33	Frozenlock	technomancy: ah! I changed test-paths to "test/clj" and now it works fine. Thank you very much :-)
16:34	coventry	There might be a way to do it with korma.core/raw, but I haven't figured out how, yet. The example of its usage in the docs is quite different from this case.
16:36	cemerick	funny, the type returned by a data reader fn cannot contain fields whose names contain dashes, or bad things happen
16:40	hiredman	cemerick: do tell
16:40	hiredman	cemerick: I would guess cider/reply bug
16:41	cemerick	hrm
16:41	trptcolin	oh?
16:41	cemerick	hiredman: why?
16:41	trptcolin	yeah details please
16:41	cemerick	eliminating the dashed field yields expected behaviour, so I assumed the usual not-munging bug
16:42	hiredman	cemerick: because I've had trouble round tripping stuff with data readers through an emacs nrepl connection for example
16:42	trptcolin	i wonder if the emacs client uses its own reader
16:42	hiredman	I think in that case it was because I didn't have an associated print-method, which led me to believe something somewhere was doing an extra pr/read-string round trip
16:43	llasram	I've need to implement print-dup
16:43	cemerick	hiredman: everything works as expected without the dashed field. The error is produced by the compiler (no method named foo-bar found for type Baz, and so on)
16:44	hiredman	cemerick: I would be super surprised it that was actually data reader related, the data reader just hands stuff to the function you tell it to
16:44	hiredman	cemerick: oh, you mean a reader for a defrecord? not a reader specified in data_readers.clj ?
16:45	Bronsa	cemerick: can you nopaste an example?
16:51	cemerick	Bronsa, hiredman, trptcolin: https://www.refheap.com/70731
16:51	cemerick	seems pretty straightforward.
16:51	cemerick	I didn't end up caring that much, so not a big deal. But if it is munging, it's like the 103rd munging bug. :-)
16:52	hiredman	except the data readers code never looks what is returned
16:53	hiredman	cemerick: what happens for (do #foo "5" nil) ?
16:54	cemerick	hiredman: dunno, I've moved on; but the _compiler_ needs to look at what is returned, or at least that's what I remember
16:54	hiredman	Oh, sure, to embed it in the bytecode
16:55	llasram	But it should be looking at the `print-dup` result, which is undefined for that type, which causes an entirely different exception
16:55	cemerick	and there's where lack of munging would be a problem
16:55	llasram	So.... that's weird
16:55	Bronsa	meanwhile, I think I found a tools.reader bug testing this
16:55	arrdem	lolz
16:55	cemerick	llasram: I don't think compilation of tagged literals looks at print-dup output
16:56	trptcolin	yeah, fwiw it’s definitely in the language, not any nrepl tooling. just ran w/ clojure.main
16:56	llasram	We're talking JVM Clojure or ClojureScript?
16:56	cemerick	JVM
16:56	trptcolin	jvm
16:56	cemerick	anyway, I do have print-dup defined for that type; but again, removing the dash from the type yield expected behaviour
16:57	llasram	cemerick: Then it definitely needs to `print-dup` to put the value in code. I mean, that's how arbitrary-reader-objects-in-code works. Yes?
16:59	cemerick	llasram: yeah, I guess you're right. Anyway, it's clearly looking at fields at some point.
16:59	hiredman	yeah, getBasis doesn't have munging in the compiler
17:00	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L4579
17:00	cemerick	hiredman: feel free to file a ticket you're so motivated. I did enough ticket-chasing for one day already. :-)
17:00	trptcolin	honestly it seems sort of weird to me to have deftype even allow fields w/ hyphens since you can only refer to them munged into (.some_field (Foo. “5”)). or is the hyphenated version useful somewhere?
17:00	hiredman	cemerick: sure
17:01	arrdem	trptcolin: it's normal to be able to use hypenated symbols elsewhere in Clojure, so the expectation is that it "just works"
17:02	arrdem	as it has not been otherwise documeted to be a problem.
17:02	llasram	Neat. I totally didn't realize that deftypes got that special treatment. Huh. But now I'm confused by past need to provide a `print-dup` for deftypes
17:03	coventry	This is what I wound up with for that korma question. It depends a lot on korma internals, but it seems to work... https://www.refheap.com/70732
17:03	cemerick	arrdem: hypenation has been _the_ persistent nuisance problem in Clojure :-)
17:04	arrdem	cemerick: :-P I didn't say it was a _good_ idea...
17:04	Bronsa	nevermind, no bug
17:07	Bronsa	.. but I'm not doing any munging for deftype fields in tools.emitter.jvm
17:09	hiredman	Bronsa: it is an issue of matching the munging, if you aren't doing munging on the one side, you should be fine on the other
17:10	seangrove	So this seems like a problem to me:
17:10	Bronsa	hiredman: except I'm munging on the other side :P
17:10	seangrove	,(keyword "this is it")
17:10	clojurebot	:this is it
17:10	arrdem	seangrove: ouch....
17:11	seangrove	,(read-string (pr-str (keyword "this is it")))
17:11	clojurebot	:this
17:11	rasmusto	,(keyword "no problem")
17:11	clojurebot	:no problem
17:11	rasmusto	,(symbol "no problem")
17:11	clojurebot	no problem
17:11	arrdem	,(keyword "there is nothing to be upset about")
17:11	clojurebot	:there is nothing to be upset about
17:11	seangrove	arrdem: Doesn't round-trip though
17:11	rasmusto	##(keyword "no problem")
17:11	arrdem	seangrove: exactly
17:12	seangrove	Doesn't serialize, essentially :P
17:12	hiredman	Bronsa: well, logically, you must be munging on both sides even if you don't think you are
17:12	rasmusto	&(keyword "no problem")
17:13	llasram	I wonder if it would work better if munging happened at the read/print boundary
17:13	Bronsa	hiredman: I mean, I'm not munging when defining the class, but I'm munging the field lookup so (.foo-bar (x. 1)) won't work
17:13	llasram	So internally no symbols or keywords ever contained "-"
17:13	Bronsa	the class has a foo-bar field but (.foo-bar ..) looks up for a foo_bar one
17:14	hiredman	Bronsa: ah, welllll
17:15	llasram	Bronsa: Oh, the JVM allows '-' in such names?
17:15	Bronsa	llasram: I don't know if it's allowed on the spec, but it's not complaining
17:15	llasram	Interesting
17:16	Bronsa	llasram: even ASM's class checker doesn't complain about it
17:16	hiredman	it is not terribly consistent, different classes of identifiers allow different things
17:17	arrdem	seangrove: I mean... really we just use keywords where clispers and schemers use quoted symbols, which is to say as a hack for more readable enums so...
17:17	hiredman	,(Character/isJavaIdentifierPart \-)
17:17	clojurebot	false
17:17	hiredman	feh
17:18	hiredman	,(Character/isJavaIdentifierStart \-)
17:18	clojurebot	false
17:18	arrdem	hiredman: right, - is only Java legal as arithmetic. :c
17:18	technomancy	such a dumb design decision
17:18	llasram	What the JVM giveth, the Java taketh away
17:18	seangrove	arrdem: Yeah, non-serializable data makes me a sad panda though
17:18	technomancy	optimizing for obfuscation
17:19	arrdem	seangrove: ah... nonprintable data makes me sad panda, serialization I tend to care less about.
17:19	technomancy	"if we allow for dashes in identifiers, how will we support math expressions that don't have spaces between the identifiers and the operators???" -> http://p.hagelb.org/127.gif
17:20	arrdem	technomancy: meh... it keeps the grammar nicer and whitespace insensitive... I understand it but I don't like it either.
17:21	seangrove	technomancy: I see your dumb statement, and raise you http://stackoverflow.com/a/14779648
17:21	technomancy	seangrove: http://p.hagelb.org/blam.gif
17:21	arrdem	seangrove: ... wow
17:22	arrdem	http://arrdem.com/images/upset.gif
17:22	justin_smith	the fact that one person clicked the uparrow on that
17:22	Frozenlock	arrdem: 404 Not Found
17:22	coventry	Of all the things I saw yesterday, that was the one I laughed at hardest.
17:22	arrdem	Frozenlock: I wasn't fast enough on the git push :P
17:23	arrdem	fixed :c
17:23	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=05022003 but for mutable strings
17:23	arrdem	unlike technomancy I don't have an amazing infrastructure for getting reaction pics when I need them with a single keychord. yet.
17:24	AmandaC	M-x omg?
17:24	justin_smith	webcam -> facial recognition -> gif search -> url pasted to irc
17:24	AmandaC	Heh
17:24	rasmusto	justin_smith: https://github.com/mroth/lolcommits
17:24	rasmusto	most of the way there
17:25	arrdem	rasmusto: I think bitemyapp was doing a thing where all commits had gifs in the message for a while... results varied :P
17:25	michal1	Hi. Could you tell me what clojure web framework is the most mature with documentation and features?
17:25	rasmusto	:)
17:25	SegFaultAX	michal1: Luminus. Not really a framework, but a set of great default libraries.
17:26	cYmen_	I could be wrong but I think lein new ... creates a new project in the current directory but lein new compojure-app ... creates a subdirectory. This seems undesirable..
17:26	michal1	how about caribou? Looks prety well.
17:27	justin_smith	michal1: we have it well documented, but it is still alpha, has some rough edges
17:27	Frozenlock	cemerick: about friend, isn't there an `authenticated?' fn? Say for (if (auth...) logout-button login-button)
17:27	justin_smith	but I (and usually patchwork except when he is on vacation in new zealand) am around to field questions about it
17:28	arrdem	,(- (int (inc (/ 25 2))) 6)
17:28	clojurebot	7
17:28	arrdem	(/ 20 3.5)
17:28	arrdem	,(/ 20 3.5)
17:28	clojurebot	5.714285714285714
17:29	trptcolin	Frozenlock: (if (cemerick.friend/current-authentication) logout-button login-button)
17:29	trptcolin	you could boolean-cast it if you really need a boolean
17:30	Frozenlock	trptcolin: Ah, makes sense, thanks
17:31	michal1	justin_smith: you are talking about caribou?
17:31	justin_smith	oh yeah, I am one of the caribou devs
17:32	justin_smith	sorry, I wasn't quite clear about that
17:36	michal1	justin_smith: It's...specyfical. I feel like with CherryPy(python) minimalism with nice features.
17:38	coventry	Speaking of rough edges and web frameworks, I ran into a situation recently with ring where an assertion failure was causing the server to return a 500 error as it should, but the stack trace for the error was never printed out. Anyone run into this with standard ring middleware?
17:42	abp	coventry: look in the nrepl-server buffer
17:42	reiddraper	gfredericks: got a chance to look at the gist, :when is 'such-that', yeah?
17:44	coventry	abp: Yeah, when I say the error wasn't printed out, I mean in the emacs nrepl server buffer.
17:45	coventry	...but the repl would report the assertion failure when I triggered the same code there.
17:45	hiredman	cemerick: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1399 feel free to vote if you don't mind deluting the value of that vote in the future
17:46	technomancy	still nothing on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1297 =\
17:46	FelisCorax	coventry: is it executing in a future or the likes? 'Cause I've noticed that rather than printing the error, they simply point to the error... or something of that nature.
17:47	bbloom	is there a clojure library of monotonic abstract types? I know core.logic has some stuff in fd, etc, but I'm wondering if there is something more general purpose out there?
17:48	justin_smith	in my experience emacs hosted process + heavy usage of threads (as one would see in ring request handling) = printouts lost to the ether
17:48	justin_smith	I start the process in an xterm and then start an nrepl server instance in the process which I then connect to
17:49	justin_smith	this is particularly bad with core.async too
17:50	gfredericks	reiddraper: exactly
17:50	gfredericks	reiddraper: I think for/doseq are kind of clojure's monad syntax, so this kind of thing seems to make sense to me
17:50	coventry	FelisCorax: I'm not causing it to execute in a future, but it's possible (but unlikely) that some ring middleware is.
17:50	reiddraper	gfredericks: does the body you provide return a generator or a value?
17:51	justin_smith	coventry: each request gets a thread in ring/jetty at least
17:51	gfredericks	reiddraper: the body returns a value; could go either way of course, but value felt less surprising
17:51	justin_smith	which should have the same issues that futures and core.async see with output disappearing
17:51	justin_smith	(really this is an emacs nrepl.el / cider issue)
17:52	coventry	justin_smith: Oh... that's possible. I'll play with it some more later.
17:52	reiddraper	gfredericks: neat. i'd be curious to get some feedback from some other users, but this seems reasonable. can you start a jira thread?
17:53	gfredericks	reiddraper: sure
17:53	reiddraper	gfredericks: much appreciated
17:58	gfredericks	I have a version that mostly works. The main thing missing is the ability to have a :let directly before a :when
17:58	gfredericks	supporting :when was tricksier than I expected
17:58	gfredericks	without :when it's a pretty basic recursive macro
17:59	stuartsierra1	coventry: Clojure pre/post conditions and assertions throw AssertionError, which is a subclass of Error, not Exception. Many frameworks/libraries only catch Exception, not all Throwables.
18:00	stuartsierra1	In general, you don't want to catch Throwable. Logging or displaying errors is the exception, no pun intended.
18:01	gfredericks	apparently ring.middleware.stacktrace does not know about this exception: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware/stacktrace.clj
18:01	cemerick	hiredman: voted, though I'm not convinced of the utility of it
18:01	cemerick	s/utility/effectiveness
18:02	hiredman	cemerick: :)
18:02	gfredericks	wait
18:02	gfredericks	that was an old ring
18:02	gfredericks	new ring catches Throwable
18:03	llasram	I guess always create a github org for any project you think both (a) will become popular, and (b) you will move on from?
18:04	gfredericks	:/
18:04	reiddraper	heh
18:04	gfredericks	what happens if your lib becomes a contrib lib? :P
18:05	llasram	Doesn't all further development cease, making the location of the official repo irrelevant?
18:05	bbloom	you can email github support to reparent the forked-from pointers
18:05	llasram	I kid, I kid
18:05	reiddraper	I missed the context here, but when i link to github, i always include a ref or sha in the url, better permalinks
18:05	michaniskin	is there a replacement for -?> (thread-first, like -> but short-circuits and returns nil when any threaded expr evals to nil)
18:05	gfredericks	reiddraper: context is googling for repos that have changed owners/orgs
18:05	llasram	michaniskin: some->
18:06	michaniskin	llasram: thanks!
18:06	rasmusto	some-> over the rainbow
18:06	reiddraper	gfredericks:ah, yeah the best workarund i know is just to link to the new location from the old one, in the readme
18:06	llasram	I pronounce that as "thread some over the rainbow," which my parser rejects
18:06	coventry	stuartsierra1, gfredericks: OK, it seems like any assertion failure has the same behavior in ring. That's a bother, sounds like using assert in a ring route isn't very useful.
18:07	gfredericks	coventry: what version of ring-devel are you using?
18:07	coventry	1.2.0
18:08	gfredericks	ah ha
18:08	stuartsierra1	coventry: it's easy to write a middleware that catches all exceptions
18:08	gfredericks	well back in the 1.2.0 days it was still ignoring Throwable: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/1.2.0/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware/stacktrace.clj
18:08	brehaut	palindromic exclaimations for all
18:08	coventry	gfredericks: Thanks, I'll try upgrading.
18:09	gfredericks	coventry: looks like 1.2.2 still doesn't have it; the commit is https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/commit/c86494086ce00c60b946c1c6321f48241cfb6cda
18:09	gfredericks	but I don't know if that's released
18:09	gfredericks	doesn't seem to be based on git tags
18:09	gfredericks	$latest ring/ring-devel
18:10	gfredericks	you could deploy master to clojars yourself :)
18:11	coventry	Thanks, gfredericks. I'll try that in a lein checkout.
18:12	llasram	Which utility library was which had a template/macro for fully implementing IFn in a deftype?
18:16	gfredericks	I did that somewhere by hand
18:16	AmandaC	Ok, I’m probably missing something simple here, but I’ve got a bunch of [word count] vectors inside a big vector. I want to know the word with the highest count, how can I do this? :s
18:16	hiredman	,(doc max-key)
18:16	clojurebot	"([k x] [k x y] [k x y & more]); Returns the x for which (k x), a number, is greatest."
18:16	justin_smith	AmandaC: (first (sort-by second vs))
18:16	rasmusto	,(max-key second [['a 2] ['b 4]])
18:16	clojurebot	[[a 2] [b 4]]
18:16	gfredericks	llasram: it's a 10 line paste :) https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-7607/blob/master/src/com/gfredericks/lib_7607/serialization.clj#L68
18:16	rasmusto	,(apply max-key second [['a 2] ['b 4]])
18:16	clojurebot	[b 4]
18:17	rasmusto	I always miss that "apply"
18:17	AmandaC	ah, thanks rasmusto
18:17	llasram	gfredericks: Of course! lib-7607. Why couldn't I remember that
18:17	llasram	gfredericks: :-p
18:17	llasram	(that actually is in fact the one)
18:17	AmandaC	I saw max-key but I couldn’t figure it out, and it always was just returning the source data it seemed.
18:17	rasmusto	AmandaC: if you're counting in a separate step, you can simplify to this: ##(apply max-key count ["123" "1234" "12345"])
18:18	gfredericks	llasram: looks like that macro assumes you just want to delegate to one of the fields
18:18	justin_smith	yeah, max-key is better because it does not need to build up the list
18:19	llasram	gfredericks: Yeah... I'm trying to decide if I want to do it that way. I think probably do anyway
18:19	amalloy_	gfredericks: def-ifn-type follows a pattern i don't super-love, for these deftype helpers: it includes the deftype! that way you can't def an ifn type and a map type, if someone had a def-map-type macro. better, imo, to have it be a function that just returns the (for ...) part of that body, so that you can glue an ifn-body together with a map-body
18:19	AmandaC	well, not bloated, I guess, for what it is. <.<
18:19	rasmusto	AmandaC: ok, my first example should work then :)
18:19	AmandaC	yeah, the apply max-key one did the trick
18:20	gfredericks	amalloy: but who on earth would have a def-map-type macro?
18:21	gfredericks	AmandaC: (use 'clojure.repl)
18:21	hiredman	AmandaC: it is in clojure.repl namespace, and only refered in to the user namespace by default
18:21	AmandaC	ahhh
18:22	gfredericks	I have a repl-utils library that lets me just type (&bs) and the current namespace gets all convenientized
18:22	llasram	Is there any sort of existing `identity`-macro? So you can splicing unquote etc forms which then just get compiled
18:22	gfredericks	llasram: I think that's the backtick library
18:22	gfredericks	maybe?
18:22	llasram	Ehhhh, not quite
18:23	amalloy	llasram: i think you may mean something like https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/macro.clj#L17?
18:23	llasram	I think basically just want an `eval` which when called at top level just plops in the form for the regular compilation process to handle
18:24	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm going to posit that you wrote the docstring for that macro
18:24	amalloy	gfredericks: not a difficult leap to make, but i wonder what makes you say that
18:24	llasram	I think you are excellent at this positing
18:25	gfredericks	amalloy: the explanatory style at the end seemed your personality
18:25	llasram	Am I missing something which makes such a macro useless?
18:25	llasram	I'm thinking of situations like amalloy's proposed macro which generates just the IFn implementation for a deftype. Because it's multiple forms, you'd want to splice in the result
18:25	amalloy	llasram: you can't do that at anything but the top level
18:26	amalloy	so it doesn't help at all for the IFn case
18:26	ztellman	amalloy: def-abstract-type, c'mon
18:26	amalloy	or maybe i misunderstood you
18:26	ztellman	this problem has been solved in a highly questionable way, let's all just use that
18:26	gfredericks	yay it worked it worked! ztellman is here with another macro!
18:27	llasram	amalloy: I'm thinking: (identity-macro `(deftype Blah [f] ~@(ifn-wrapper f)))
18:27	ztellman	llasram: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin#def-abstract-type-and-deftype
18:27	ztellman	this is how I add in IFn functionality to def-map-type in Potemkin
18:28	amalloy	llasram: that certainly seems appealing to me, and yet it also seems like it's not different from eval in any obvious way
18:28	llasram	ztellman: Ok, makes sense to have particular support for types. But this is something I've wanted for other situations too
18:29	llasram	amalloy: Yeah, I think the compiler could certainly handle `eval` exactly this way, except that we know the implementation doesn't :-)
18:29	ztellman	llasram: sure, what you really want is a macro version of syntax-quote
18:29	ztellman	so that you could just do (magic-template-macro (deftype Blah [f] ~@(...)))
18:29	ztellman	no need for eval
18:30	llasram	ztellman: good point
18:30	llasram	But alas on that note I must depart
18:30	amalloy	a macro that just returns its body isn't a solution, because the body here is (seq (concat '[deftype] '[Blah] '[[f]] ...)), and not (deftype ...)
18:30	ztellman	I'm working on something for this, a partial implementation is at https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/blob/master/src/potemkin/template.clj
18:31	ztellman	amalloy: if my aforementioned macro is a macro, that'll get worked out at compile-time
18:31	gtrak	didn't bbloom make that already?
18:31	gtrak	https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
18:31	ztellman	gtrak: sorta, the version I linked to doesn't require gensyms or ~' or any of that other line noise
18:32	ztellman	because it enforces hygiene at compile time rather than read time
18:32	bbloom	gfredericks: ztellman's version is a tad different
18:32	gtrak	ah
18:34	gfredericks	bbloom: I think that statement might be true independent of the context
18:34	Bronsa	ztellman: your deftype+/def-abstract-type look an awful lot like my deftrait/deftype from https://github.com/Bronsa/neurotic :)
18:35	ztellman	Bronsa: it's not a revolutionary idea, I'll admit
18:35	bbloom	gfredericks: rewrite to "has slightly different goals"
18:36	em-dash	when I'm consuming an existing, JSON-based, API with ClojureScript, are there any readily-accessible functions/tools for converting jsIdiomaticCamelCase -> cljs-idiomatic-levitating-snake-case?
18:37	justin_smith	em-dash: the correct term is kebab-case
18:37	gtrak	em-dash: I'd just stick to the json version :-)
18:37	gtrak	:thisIsNotSoBad
18:38	justin_smith	https://github.com/qerub/camel-snake-kebab camel-snake-kebab should work in cljs I think
18:38	em-dash	gtrak: not so bad, but why settle? :)
18:38	em-dash	justin_smith: thanks, I'll check that out!
18:38	gtrak	well.. I guess, I like less things in between my things.
18:38	justin_smith	em-dash: the only imports on the lib are clojure.lang imports and the project is just one source file, so if it is not cljs-compatible out of the box, it will be easy to port
18:41	bbloom	em-dash: i'd go further: just use strings as keys
18:41	bbloom	em-dash: the keyword-ization thing is fragile and pointless
18:43	em-dash	bbloom: I'm using an API response as the bulk of an Om app's app-state. If I don't convert keys I'm going to be stuck with strings for lookup all over my app.
18:43	em-dash	maybe not a meaningful place to apply effort, but it sorta offends my sensibilities :/
18:44	bbloom	i guess it's a reasonable thing to do if you're also converting objs to maps and arrays to vectors
18:45	bbloom	i just see lots of simple/small usages of js->clj that could easily be addressed with an aget or two
18:45	dnolen_	em-dash: you could implement IEncodeClojure for Keyword in your application to get the behavior you need from js->clj
18:46	abp	wow, I've got quite some talent running into the sharpest knives when trying something new. reactjs needs an explicit tbody for dynamic tables, first thing I failed into while writing something more complex using om.
18:47	em-dash	bbloom: haven't checked, but I would think use of `aget` might break under advanced compilation (where `aget`ing a prop from a lib, not from data off the wire). do you know anything about that?
18:48	em-dash	dnolen_: thanks, that seems like a (potentially) cleaner approach
18:48	bbloom	em-dash: aget will work fine on data loaded from JSON.parse etc
18:48	dnolen_	em-dash: hrm, actually looking at the js->clj - the needed hook is missing ...
18:49	em-dash	dnolen_: ok, thanks for checking, I'm not even sure where to look and would have beat my tender little head against the wall while wailing 'why?!?'
18:50	em-dash	bbloom: righto, but using aget on stuff that's passed through the closure compiler is a no-no, right? (I thought I read that along the way somewhere)
18:50	em-dash	er, specifically a no-no w/r/t advanced compilation mode
18:50	bbloom	em-dash: search for "Using string names to refer to object properties" on this page: https://developers.google.com/closure/compiler/docs/limitations
18:52	em-dash	bbloom: thanks!
18:52	lynaghk	dnolen_: ping
18:54	dnolen_	lynaghk: pong
18:55	lynaghk	dnolen_: I had a conceptual question about om if you have a sec
18:55	dnolen_	lynaghk: go for it
18:55	lynaghk	in particular, is it necessary for there to be a distinction between user-defined components and html tags
18:56	lynaghk	I can throw around (dom/div ...) constructions, but when I have my own widgets I need to do this (build-all) stuff
18:56	bbloom	lynaghk: there isn't such a distinction in React itself beyond the implementation details
18:56	lynaghk	one of my favorite things from Angular is being able to define new tags and then not think about 'em any more
18:57	lynaghk	so I was wondering if there's some reason such a scheme wouldn't work in reacot
18:57	lynaghk	*react
18:58	dnolen_	lynaghk: it's a tradeoff, React in fact works that way
18:58	lynaghk	https://github.com/holmsand/reagent seems to have a more uniform treatment (assuming the :div keywords are just sugar to keep people from having to :require :refer [div])
18:58	dnolen_	lynaghk: Om does not because I want component construction to be interceptable
18:58	lynaghk	ah, got it.
18:58	bbloom	dnolen_: can you intercept div construction?
18:58	dnolen_	lynaghk: yeah I think uniformity here is valued over adaptability, I don't really care that much about uniformity
18:58	lynaghk	if you weren't using build, then presumably you'd have to run a fork of React so that you can hook into their compilation process?
18:59	dnolen_	lynaghk: there isn't a compilation process really
18:59	dnolen_	lynaghk: when React is a little more pluggable in the future we may be able to recover uniformity
18:59	dnolen_	bbloom: cannot
19:00	bbloom	dnolen_: random idea: could you just define a higher-order html-element component that takes the tag as a parameter?
19:00	noonian	you can just write functions that return om.dom nodes though if you don't wan't to have to deal with the component stuff and just use a top level om component to kick things off
19:00	dnolen_	bbloom: could, don't really care that much about it though
19:00	benmoss	hmm. in Om it’s not possible to use strings as cursors?
19:00	bbloom	dnolen_: yeah, but for intercepting textareas or whatever, it would be cool
19:00	lynaghk	Right now it seems like a leaky abstraction to me---why should I have to care that "button" comes from the browser but that "fancyButton" needs to be invoked differently because it comes from a coworker?
19:01	dnolen_	benmoss: it is but you're on your own. very gross because of JavaScript String Object native distinction
19:01	bbloom	dnolen_: you'd only need to define a single "element" function and somebody else could supply the std lib with div and input and all that jazz
19:02	bbloom	dnolen_: but it looks like you already have a "tags" collection to go off of
19:02	dnolen_	lynaghk: I've already said what I have to say about it :) I didn't make the choice lightly, and there are a couple other ideas as well that just don't line up w/ how React works
19:02	benmoss	dnolen_: just was thinking i’d write a “validating-input” component and pass it just the string, but blows up with “No protocol method ICursor.-path defined for type string”
19:02	dnolen_	benmoss: read the first tutorial please
19:02	lynaghk	dnolen_: oh, definitely---the above idea is my first gut feeling, but I know you've thought way more about it than I have, which is why I wanted to ask = )
19:03	coventry	lynaghk: You might be able to extend sablono with custom elements.
19:03	mvzink	benmoss: the bit about implementing ICloneable for String
19:03	benmoss	ah mvzink thanks
19:03	dnolen_	lynaghk: a lot of the burden is because React works a certain way and we have to interact w/ it in a certain way
19:03	dnolen_	lynaghk: when React loosens up these things, we have more flexibility as well
19:04	lynaghk	dnolen_: ah, got it. Is there a good wiki or mailing list discussion about React's design and Om's considerations thereon? Or should I just settle down and read both sources a few times?
19:04	dnolen_	lynaghk: sadly a lot of this knowledge comes from talking directly with the React devs in person, specifically Pete Hunt and Sebatien Markbage
19:05	dnolen_	lynaghk: corner these guys and buy them a drink ;)
19:05	dnolen_	s/Sebatien/Sebastien
19:05	lynaghk	dnolen_: that is the only way I know how to learn software things = )
19:06	lynaghk	dnolen_: thanks for the info, I'll dig 'round a bit more
19:06	dnolen_	lynaghk: Sebastien is the main full time dev - he does most of the internals
19:06	dnolen_	lynaghk: the conversation I had w/ him at Clojure/West was very good - React is going in the right direction
19:06	dnolen_	on the road map is splitting out the OO stuff so we have a better interface
19:06	gozala	anyone able to help me out with core.async question ?
19:06	dnolen_	as well making the rendering more pluggable (WebGL/Canvas etc)
19:06	dnolen_	Objective-C too
19:07	lynaghk	dnolen_: damn, I didn't know he was there. I would've loved to talk with the react guys
19:08	dnolen_	lynaghk: actually he wasn't there, just met for beers on Wednesday night, he works at FB and lives in SF
19:08	amalloy	~anyone
19:08	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
19:08	bbloom	lynaghk: dnolen_ invited him out for drinks one night. i agree: that guy definitely has strong sense of the problem & solution
19:09	bbloom	tpope: vim indenting question for you, but this might be a question for guns / vim-static
19:10	lynaghk	bbloom:, dnolen_: have either of you seen interesting solutions for where styling fits into all of this?
19:10	bbloom	tpope: if i write something like (blah blah blah [<cr> then, as expected, the cursor opens a new line lined up with the [ ... but if i outdent, type some, then press <cr> again... it still lines up with the [ even though i'd expect it to line up with the last line... any way to fix that?
19:11	bbloom	lynaghk: we discussed it a bit, i have ideas but i haven't worked out details yet
19:12	lynaghk	bbloom: I'd be interested to see what you come up with.
19:12	dnolen_	lynaghk: bbloom: I think the big takeaway is to address the styling and non-interference of styling as one thing. layout is another thing - it's probably worth thinking about this wrt layout http://gridstylesheets.org
19:12	lynaghk	I feel like a lot of styling, especially web-app component styling, is a big out-of-band interface that represents conceptual states with classes
19:12	bbloom	lynaghk: i have lots of notes on the "essence" of styling/layout, i've been sharing them peace meal w/ seangrove. i have a thought or two on how to make the browser implementation not suck, but i haven't any evidence that i can actually solve that problem
19:13	rasmusto	bbloom: you want something on the line after the [ to be lined up with the first blah (after the "(") ?
19:14	lynaghk	dnolen_: totally agreed that it'd be good to separate layout, aesthetic styling (i.e., typeface), and functional styling ('error' class makes red text visible)
19:14	bbloom	dnolen_: lynaghk: i'm not a huge believer in constraint-based layout outside of top-level grids
19:14	bbloom	lynaghk: dnolen_ i think it's good to have two distinct sets of abstractions, but those two subsystems need to communicate very closely
19:15	lynaghk	bbloom: two sets = aesthetic styling, layout?
19:15	bbloom	rasmusto: if i type an ( or a [ or whatever without anything after it, i want 2-space indent, instead of alignment
19:15	dnolen_	lynaghk: given the success of React, I suspect something similar can be done w/ CSS, computing which styles should be applied in memory, as well computing non-interference
19:15	bbloom	lynaghk: yeah, styling and layout
19:15	dnolen_	lynaghk: the more I think about Shadow DOM the more I get scared
19:16	bbloom	lynaghk: in short, i think that a good styling system works a lot like a data-only prototypical inheritence object system and a good layout system works a lot like a physics engine, driven by properties of the object system.... ie see games again :-P
19:16	lynaghk	dnolen_: when you say "which styles" you mean a pre-specified mapping of domain properties (e.g., invalid input) to visual aeshetics (red text)?
19:17	dnolen_	lynaghk: I'm not really concerned about visual aesthetics vs. domain properties - too high level of concern
19:17	rasmusto	bbloom: you might be talking about "lispwords" or clojure_special_indent_words in vim-clojure-static. Don't know if there a way to make it global
19:18	dnolen_	more concerned about getting a sensible approach period for efficiently styling components w/o interference
19:18	dnolen_	w/o the complexity of Shadow DOM
19:18	lynaghk	dnolen_: oh, you mean you are thinking of an alternative to CSS selectors when deciding how to apply rules?
19:18	bbloom	dnolen_: yeah, there's two halfs of hte problem: styling/layout at it's core... and making a damn browser behave itself
19:18	dnolen_	lynaghk: yes something that delivers the good parts of CSS w/o the issues that performs well in modern browsers for components
19:19	lynaghk	dnolen_: you think shadow DOM is analogous to private classes/methods? Treating the symptoms and not the problem?
19:19	dnolen_	lynaghk: yes treats the symptoms, and then has to pile on complex hacks to make it work
19:20	bbloom	rasmusto: not quite.... close though, so i know it's possible somehow
19:20	bbloom	agreed fully on shadow dom nonsense
19:20	bbloom	more OOP silliness
19:20	lynaghk	dnolen_: what are the biggest issues you have with CSS now?
19:21	dnolen_	lynaghk: interference
19:21	dnolen_	lynaghk: so I want what Shadow DOM delivers w/o the complexity and cognitive load.
19:22	lynaghk	dnolen_: interference = it's too easy to write over-general rules?
19:23	dnolen_	lynaghk: no I can't give you widget that you can just drop into a page that works because styles unrelated affect it
19:23	lynaghk	there's a fine line between that being a bug and a feature (e.g., your widget matches the typeface on my website)
19:24	dnolen_	lynaghk: having worked on website for years w/ draconian styling rules - still not worth it
19:24	lynaghk	yeah, totally fair. it's something Ryan and I have been discussing as well
19:25	lynaghk	well, I'm going to take all of this over to my hammock and ideate for a few weeks. thanks dnolen_, bbloom.
19:27	bbloom	lynaghk: i've got a kinda nebulous thought about transclusion of styling being a bug vs a feature
19:27	bbloom	oh he left :-P
19:28	bbloom	anyway, for on lookers: i'd rather design a component to have PRECISELY SPECIFIED styles and then abstract over time to relax constraints
19:28	bbloom	artists/designers work this way & it's impossible for things to just "look right" if you swap out random attributes, you need to explicitly parameterize and test
19:29	SegFaultAX	bbloom: What was the tl;dr of the conversation? I missed most of it.
19:29	bbloom	abstract over time == overtime, add abstraction... not literally abstract over some time T :-P
19:29	bbloom	SegFaultAX: that's what logs are for :-P
19:29	SegFaultAX	And also handy tl;drs. :)
19:32	abp	bbloom: What did you mean by top-level only in respect to grids? Basic layout and then only gridding deeper where appropriate?
19:33	bbloom	abp: http://aucklandlayout.sourceforge.net/ works great for the same kind of things that designers use grid lines for in photoshop
19:33	bbloom	abp: but many layouts are non-linear, hell... some are non-euclidean
19:33	bbloom	trivial example: wrap panels
19:36	abp	bbloom: What's the difference between ALM and GSS?
19:36	bbloom	abp: i don't know a lot about GSS, but I know that it advertises cassowary on the tin
19:36	bbloom	abp: cassowary is a constraint solving algorithm
19:37	bbloom	abp: ALM is an abstraction over vertical, horizontal, and rectangular regions that can be implemented with any linear constraint solver
19:37	bbloom	(including cassowary, of course)
19:38	bbloom	abp: the mean idea behind ALM is that you define horizontal and vertical rules, define constraints between them, then define "areas" by a 4-tuple of x/x/y/y, and then assign components to areas
19:38	bbloom	clarifying words: rules == guidelines
19:39	abp	bbloom: yeah, looking at the ALM-examples briefly
19:39	bbloom	think about how designers work. they don't create a grid line for EVERYTHING ON EVERY PAGE
19:39	bbloom	that's what traditional solvers do
19:39	bbloom	auto layout in ios for example has examples that involve direct relationships between two components
19:39	bbloom	which is silly, designers don't think that way
19:44	abp	bbloom: I'm not sure of that. ;)
19:45	brehaut	oh thank goodness they are _from_ auckland, not naming it after how auckland is layed out
19:45	bbloom	abp: even if they do, it's the wrong default. it's not the common case. the common case is what gets done in photoshop w/ guide rules
19:47	seangrove	bbloom: Blend for html looks pretty fantastic
19:47	bbloom	seangrove: was that announced today?
19:47	bbloom	link?
19:47	seangrove	Apparently not!
19:47	seangrove	http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2013/2-311
19:48	bbloom	seangrove: i'm sorry / you're welcome for me exposing you to msft dev tools :-P
19:48	seangrove	bbloom: If it works out in the end, you're forgiven
19:49	seangrove	If I lose my way and go running back to backend-dev, well...
19:49	abp	seangrove: From VS-exerience I'd assume it looks great until you have to use it. :x
19:49	seangrove	Anyway, blend has some good ideas, but it does have some stuff mixed up that doesn't seem as fantastic - usual MS stuff
19:49	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, in true msft style
19:50	bbloom	i'm telling you man, they are the ultimate pyramid builders... i'm counting on this community to build some fucking cathedrals :-)
19:50	seangrove	bbloom: For example, they have cool layout tools, but everything still follows the page layout. So unless you have a position: fixed or absolute, it's going to get mangled
19:51	bbloom	seangrove: what does "follows the page layout" mean?
19:52	seangrove	bbloom: It's in a slightly strange middle-land. It's making components, etc., but it still keeps the 'page' idea from html
19:52	seangrove	bbloom: So you're still playing with document-flow page layout that the browsers do by default
19:52	bbloom	seangrove: i think that they are struggling with the wide variety of form factors for their devices & are trying to figure out how to bridge the app/page gap
19:52	bbloom	i suspect they will fuck it up 2.5 times before they get it right, modulo some legacy stuff
19:53	seangrove	I just don't see much benefit to keeping the page model and squeezing apps into it
19:53	abp	bbloom: Have you read the paradigms book by van roy?
19:53	bbloom	abp: nope, should i?
19:53	seangrove	If you're working with components, have styling, layout, etc. separate, then throw html layout out
19:53	bbloom	seangrove: agreed
19:53	abp	bbloom: Where about to ask you what you think about it in comparison to other basic cs stuff you know
19:54	bbloom	no clue
19:54	abp	bbloom: I'm just doing an edx-course by him, based on a third of the book. Post-filling solid basics. :x
19:58	abp	bbloom: Besides putting up with the oz-language and its environment I learn quite a lot. Basically the decomposition of programming concepts I got from learning Clojure but formalized and beyond.
19:59	bbloom	abp: i programmed professionally for 10+ years before i took 6 months to myself to study and had a "i see the matrix" moment
19:59	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Side note: code.org is pretty damn sweet.
20:00	bbloom	SegFaultAX: glad you like it! :-) it's still evolving fast since i worked on the Hour of Code campaign until dec
20:02	abp	bbloom: About same here, nearly 10 years in, but only when discovering Scala, then learning Clojure I understood what felt wrong all the time in imperative oop-land.
20:02	SegFaultAX	I did the whole course last night, had a blast.
20:03	SegFaultAX	I especially enjoyed the later levels which focused on functions and composition.
20:03	abp	bbloom: Wasted a lot of time trying to mitigate via libs and frameworks before that. :/
20:04	bbloom	abp: for me, learning clojure, factor, and mathematica + implementing compilers/interpreters for small languages of various kinds
20:04	bbloom	implementing a lisp made me understand haskell and scala better than... writing programs in haskell and scala :-P
20:05	abp	lol
20:05	bbloom	seriously, everybody: go implement a toy lisp
20:05	bbloom	it's good for you :-)
20:05	technomancy	bbloom: oh, did I tell you I started a forth?
20:05	bbloom	technomancy: YESSS
20:05	bbloom	nice.
20:06	technomancy	fun times
20:06	SegFaultAX	Does it have to be a toy!?
20:06	technomancy	SegFaultAX: everything starts as a toy
20:06	bbloom	SegFaultAX: nope! but once it stops being a toy you stop learning about computer science and start learning about software engineering ;-)
20:06	bbloom	technomancy: i've implemented maybe two dozen forth-likes by now. it's so easy you can almost do it by accident lol
20:07	SegFaultAX	What I mean is: when I have to write something in Python I usually implement a lisp to do whatever my actual work is.
20:07	SegFaultAX	Or Ruby. Or Java.
20:07	SegFaultAX	Isn't that how everyone writes code?
20:07	technomancy	bbloom: awesome. mine is intended to run on the teensy ucontroller in my keyboard, so I need to make it fit in 2.5k of ram.
20:07	bbloom	technomancy: haha awesome
20:07	technomancy	no idea if I can actually fit a keyboard firmware into that. we shall see.
20:07	bbloom	technomancy: i'm certain you can
20:08	bbloom	technomancy: i'm certain you can... AND it can have a fucking debugger
20:08	technomancy	hehe
20:08	technomancy	well the fact that my board only has 42 keys should help
20:09	bbloom	http://nforth.berlios.de/docs/nf-intro.html
20:09	bbloom	that's a complete forth with interactive sessions & all sorts of jazz... 4k
20:09	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/orestes
20:10	technomancy	it's not as self-hosting as is traditional just because I have gobs of flash space and very little ram, and only C code can live in flash
20:10	bbloom	you implemented loops? booo. implement tail recursion :-)
20:11	bbloom	http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html
20:11	technomancy	heh
20:11	justin_smith	technomancy: only c code in flash? why?
20:11	bbloom	note that the ";" symbol essentially means "turn the previous word in to a tail call"
20:11	technomancy	justin_smith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture
20:11	technomancy	because code is not data
20:12	bbloom	boooo
20:12	technomancy	is dumb
20:12	bbloom	:-)
20:12	justin_smith	the mind boggles
20:12	technomancy	it's
20:12	justin_smith	seems like there would be some "put some static data into RAM" shim possibility
20:12	technomancy	there is a forth that gets around it, but it does this by running the whole thing out of the bootloader
20:13	bbloom	technomancy: look at that page i linked you to, it's a table for a "minimal" forth with the corresponding pentium instructions
20:13	technomancy	justin_smith: you can read from flash, but you can't store back into it during runtime
20:13	technomancy	bbloom: thanks; I've actually got most of the basics working already; just need to expose USB functionality to the forth code
20:13	technomancy	but I should give it a look
20:14	seangrove	dnolen_: It's probably worth you watching bits of that video too. They seem to have designers working off of data with live views as well. Probably going to be drifting more towards that ideal
20:14	bbloom	technomancy: some ideas like words that push pointers on to the stack were non-obvious to me, but make perfect sense in practice
20:14	technomancy	bbloom: yeah, I've needed a few of those just to get the text interpreter going
20:14	technomancy	even though it's all C so far, it's very forthy C
20:15	bbloom	heh, yeah, now that i've done some forth, C is painful
20:15	technomancy	practically zero use of arguments to pass things around
20:15	seangrove	technomancy: Just keeping things on the stack?
20:15	bbloom	yeah, you basically just program with dynamic variables everywhere
20:15	technomancy	seangrove: yup; void void void everywhere
20:15	bbloom	seangrove: you only use the stack to parameterize stuff
20:16	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, hence dynamic vars
20:16	bbloom	dynamic vars are a pain w/ laziness or otherwise in a functional style, but in a forht, all code executes left-to-right
20:16	bbloom	so side effects make perfect sense, there is no mental book keeping about evaluation order
20:16	technomancy	three functions that aren't void, and one of them is push =)
20:17	bbloom	differs wildly from factor too, which encourages more parameter passing
20:17	bbloom	but factor also has quotations, which are like the rpn version of lambdas, so factor can do higher order dataflow and whatnot
20:18	bbloom	so dynamic variables are less of a default there, prefering more stack passing & data flow combinators
20:18	bbloom	http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-dataflow-combinators.html
20:18	technomancy	is that related to forth's '?
20:19	bbloom	technomancy: i'm not sure what '? you're referring to
20:19	bbloom	names are highly incosistent and ungooglable in forth land
20:19	bbloom	:-P
20:20	technomancy	I think it's just pronounced quote
20:20	technomancy	pushes the execution token of the parsed identifier that follows
20:20	technomancy	kinda feels like @#'
20:21	technomancy	or maybe #' from CL would be a better analog
20:21	bbloom	technomancy: ah yea, much like #'
20:21	bbloom	http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-__back__,syntax.html
20:22	bbloom	in factor, the lexer is a first-class object you can program, the \ word causes the next token to be read as a string, then it is put in to a "wrapper"
20:22	bbloom	which is sorta like a quote that doesn't go away
20:22	technomancy	cool.
20:23	bbloom	,(defrecord Hold [value])
20:23	clojurebot	sandbox.Hold
20:23	bbloom	,(= ''x 'x)
20:23	clojurebot	false
20:23	technomancy	got a kick out of how comments and strings are just parsing words
20:23	bbloom	,(= (eval ''x) (eval 'x))
20:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:23	bbloom	,(= (eval '''x) (eval ''x))
20:23	clojurebot	false
20:23	bbloom	,(= (eval (Hold. 'x)) (eval 'x))
20:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:23	bbloom	,(= (eval (Hold. ''x)) (eval ''x))
20:23	clojurebot	false
20:23	bbloom	er hard to concoct an example
20:24	bbloom	anyway, the point is that quote prevents ONE evaluation
20:24	bbloom	there is a notion of "Hold" in mathematica that stops all evaluation until ReleaseHold
20:25	bbloom	that's a "Wrapper" for words, but there is a more general notion of wrappers for all data types. that's "literalize": http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-literalize%2Cquotations.html
20:25	bbloom	basically coerces an object to a self-evaluating variant of that object
20:25	bbloom	it's idempotent too
20:25	bbloom	we need something like that in clojure...
20:27	technomancy	well I just want to hack my keyboard without writing a bunch of C
20:27	technomancy	well
20:27	technomancy	I guess it's too late for that
20:27	bbloom	lol
20:27	bbloom	truely you should have bootstrapped a new forth with an old forth, like a real forth-er
20:27	technomancy	I wrote a rough draft of the firmware in gforth
20:27	bbloom	sadly, there doesn't appear to be a good forth that has compile-to-C
20:28	technomancy	and I considered avr assembly, but the docs around that are just garbage
20:28	bbloom	ah, the write one to throw away strategy, good plan
20:28	technomancy	plus the USB stack is C anyway
20:28	technomancy	hard to avoid that
20:29	technomancy	I am curious whether it's feasible to interact with the interpreter directly through keystrokes read from the switches, pre-usb
20:30	bbloom	i'm helpless in hardware land, i'm afraid
20:30	technomancy	yeah, I am still exploring it
20:30	bbloom	i've bricked more prototype devices in my career than i care to admit
20:30	technomancy	seems like below a certain size, forth is the only way to do that interactively
20:30	bbloom	i decided that if there is no undo button, i'm not interested
20:31	technomancy	well for boards that only run US$16 I'm less concerned
20:32	bbloom	if it were me, i'd order a few spares up front
20:33	yedi	is there a version of reduce that takes a fn with an index? so i can use the index of the value in the list?
20:33	yedi	or is that sort of thing a code smell
20:33	technomancy	well if I do brick this, I might upgrade to an arm
20:33	bbloom	yedi: reduce over (map vector (range) yourcoll
20:33	technomancy	I wanted to start with an avr because all the existing C firmwares use that
20:33	technomancy	but arm boards give me way more room to work if I'm starting from scratch
20:33	technomancy	sixty four whole kilobytes. the luxury.
20:34	yedi	bbloom: makes sense, thanks
20:34	technomancy	seangrove: you try and tell the young people these days; they won't believe you!
20:46	yedi	is it pretty stupid to have a map with a mapping from integer to something else
20:47	yedi	because you can just use a vector?
20:47	bbloom	yedi: does your key space start at zero?
20:47	coventry	yedi: Not necessarily. You might represent a sparse vector that way.
20:47	bob2	depends what the indexes are - if they're consecutive and start from zero, vector sounds like the way to go
20:47	bbloom	yedi: is to sparse? dense?
20:47	bbloom	is it*
20:47	yedi	hm yea it will start from zero
20:48	yedi	idk what sparse/dense means
20:48	yedi	and many of the integers up till the last one will have a value, but not all of the integers (some will be nil)
20:48	coventry	For instance, you can reasonably do something like {1000000000 'value}, and assume that everything else in the vector is zero. That's a sparse representation.
20:49	yedi	so yes it'll be sparse, but how sparse it is will differ
20:49	yedi	depending on the data
20:50	yedi	yea i think a map makes sense
21:09	yedi	i feel like there is a more concise way to write this fn: https://gist.github.com/yedi/9946510
21:10	amalloy	(update-in m (:index stream) (fnil conj ()) to-add)
21:11	amalloy	although really that fnil can just be conj, since (conj () x) is the same as (conj nil x)
21:11	amalloy	(update-in m (:index stream) conj to-add)
21:11	yedi	oh nice
21:11	yedi	thanks
21:14	bbloom	amalloy: for some reason, the most common function i redefine in every project is (def conjs (fnil conj #{}))
21:25	michaniskin	(def trans (partial apply map vector))
21:25	michaniskin	(def indexed (partial map-indexed vector))
21:31	n_b	Is there a way to get the strack trace from an exception inside a future? Is clojure.stacktrace-api where I should be looking, or is that an internals thing?
21:35	michaniskin	n_b: https://github.com/dgrnbrg/spyscope#example-annotated-spyt-session <— i just found this
21:36	michaniskin	n_b: i haven't used it though, but it looks like it might help?
21:37	n_b	michaniskin: I'll take a peek, cheers.
22:27	coventry	holo: If you can get a browser repl going, it gets hugely easier to develop tests.
22:33	holo	coventry, oh, but I mean to work at all.. I get that "can't find cemerick" stuff. i tried everything. but I know it's just a bad day
22:33	amalloy	"can't find cemerick"? that's a standard cljs bug?
22:33	amalloy	if i knew having cemerick around were a standard cljs feature i'd write some!
22:34	holo	sure :D "ReferenceError: Can't find variable: cemerick" this one
22:34	technomancy	amalloy: relevant http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/NREPL-49
22:34	coventry	cemerick's immense productivity is just a trick for parallelizing his search for himself over the majority of clojure developers.
22:35	holo	heh I saw that one on twitter :D great stuff
22:37	coventry	holo: Post the test and I'll take a look if you like.
22:52	holo	coventry, I said the following after my connection was broken:
22:53	holo	coventry, I just shared my frustration with the hope someone would understand my feeling. actually i'm enraged and now it's a personal battle between me and this error message ಠ_ಠ
22:53	holo	coventry, thanks anyway. i must fight this battle alone, and laugh like a maniac after i win
23:06	ghadishayban	gozala: I can help you with a core.async question
23:21	chare	(defroutes handler (GET "/foo" [] (foo-handler))
23:21	chare	how do i get access to the request in foo-handler?
23:22	jeremyheiler	chare: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax
23:32	chare	whats in the request map, this book says :context — The context in which the application can be found when not deployed as root.
23:32	chare	what does that mean
23:34	brehaut	it means if you use the context route (compojure.routes/context from memory) you can embed one route inside another, and :context is the root
23:37	chare	that did not make sense to me
23:37	chare	what are typical valuse for :context
23:40	tmciver	chare: have you seen this: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Nesting-routes?
23:41	tmciver	chare: I don't think you have to care what value :context has.
23:41	chare	so when the book says the following
23:41	chare	The preceding code will work fine when the application runs standalone.
23:41	chare	However, if we ran our application on an application server, the Ajax request
23:41	chare	would fail because the full URL would need to have the application context
23:41	chare	prefixed.
23:41	chare	what it means is the context macro?
23:42	chare	the context macro will mess up the path used by ajax requests
23:45	zanedog	Who knows something about clojure.data.zip.xml?
23:48	Guest50943	Specifically, looking for advice on the xml-> function
23:49	chare	tmciver: so you could have a path /api/something and then wrap that in the context of a bigger app that changes the paths to /main/api/something and everything that was hardcoded to /api/something will break, is that the point??
23:51	tmciver	chare: that sounds right to me but I'm not sure as I've never used context in Compojure. And I'm not sure I understand the comment about it breaking an ajax request.
23:52	Guest50943	Hah, figured it out. Never mind.
23:52	chare	if you have an ajax request that posts to /api/something that will break if the app is wrapped into the "context" of /main/api/something where /api/something no longer exists????
23:53	tmciver	chare: I suppose so, but that's true of any request to that (non-contexted) path.
23:57	amalloy	Raynes: lazybot seems unable to send messages. related to the linode issue, presumably