#clojure – 2014-04-03

2014-04-03

00:07	sm0ke	,(prn 'foo)
00:07	clojurebot	foo\n
00:07	sm0ke	##(prn 'foo)
00:07	sm0ke	hmm being lazy?
00:14	noprompt	please stop the :use.
00:14	noprompt	no more :use.
00:15	rootex	noprompt: not even in the repl?
00:15	sm0ke	,{:use :use}
00:15	clojurebot	{:use :use}
00:15	sm0ke	:)
00:15	noprompt	rootex: that's fine. but i don't even do that. bad habits die hard. typing two letters isn't hard.
00:15	noprompt	(:require [this.thing :as t])
00:15	noprompt	t/x
00:16	noprompt	but mostly i'm ranting about ns :use.
00:16	sm0ke	oh that use, yep i also dont use :use
00:16	noprompt	in library code.
00:16	sm0ke	(:require [abc.efgh :refer :all]) can be used un place f :use
00:16	sm0ke	right?
00:16	TravisD	noprompt: I agree that it's not very clear, but is there another reason?
00:17	TravisD	(like, it can be difficult to know where functions are defined. Is that the only issue?)
00:17	noprompt	TravisD: because when i'm trying to read code, you know, to understand it, i have no clue where functions, etc. are coming from.
00:18	TravisD	that's the issue I mentioned :) No others?
00:18	sm0ke	noprompt: cant you do `where-are-you ?
00:18	noprompt	no that's about it.
00:18	sm0ke	,`inc
00:18	clojurebot	clojure.core/inc
00:19	noprompt	i basically have to end up cloning the library, greping, nrepl-jumping, or some other form of sluthery.
00:20	sm0ke	hurm
00:20	noprompt	but hey it's cool. whatever bro, if that's your style.
00:20	sm0ke	sounds complicated
00:20	noprompt	sm0ke: well github search aint much beter.
00:21	sm0ke	moreover, does it matters if the library is using :use because it surely isnt propogated to your code
00:22	noprompt	sm0ke: context: i'm trying to READ the fucking code.
00:22	noprompt	iow i'm trying to UNDERSTAND something.
00:22	sm0ke	oh ok got it
00:22	noprompt	lol
00:22	TravisD	noprompt: I wasn't saying it's okay to :use. I was just curious about the reasoning
00:22	sm0ke	yea me too
00:23	sm0ke	normally i dont READ code on github if really want to understand
00:23	sm0ke	i open up ide and jump to functions
00:23	sm0ke	but its ok bro, if its your style
00:24	noprompt	basically imho, if you're going to release a library for public consumption use :require :as because someday someone's gonna want to understand the code. if you have buckets of :use and a lot of namespaces it's basically like telling the would be reader of the code to go fuck themselves.
00:25	noprompt	i mean it's pretty much like ruby's require 'lol' <= who knows what's in there?!
00:25	sm0ke	noprompt: If its so badly written chances are you will not work with it
00:25	noprompt	don't matter yo, cuz, it's so much easier to type :use than :require :as.
00:26	sm0ke	yea man pont noted.
00:26	sm0ke	its bad to use ;)
00:27	noprompt	the worst is that people do this in their READMEs which teaches new comers bad habits.
00:28	noprompt	i mean even for internal projects it's a bad idea because YOU may have to come back someday and read that code.
00:28	tmciver	I've heard it said here many times: only use :use with :only.
00:28	noprompt	tmciver: and that's fine.
00:29	rootex	sm0ke: you use a IDE for Clojure?
00:29	sm0ke	rootex: i consider vim + fireplace as an ide
00:30	sm0ke	or whatever you want to call it, but it lets me jump onto runtime definitions
00:30	noprompt	sm0ke: did you mess with timl?
00:31	sm0ke	yep its nice
00:31	noprompt	hell if i hadn't invested all this time into evil-mode with emacs i might be jumping out a window over timl.
00:31	sm0ke	tpope has created a monster
00:32	sm0ke	:) jumping ships is never good man
00:34	sm0ke	otoh i am feeling a lot of lost souls using evil in emacs would come back to vim once timl gets well documented and has a few plugins written in it
00:35	sm0ke	sjl has written a plugin in timl https://github.com/sjl/tslime2.vim/blob/master/plugin/tslime.tim
00:35	noprompt	yeah...
00:36	noprompt	i dunno. i'm pretty happy with me setup right now.
00:36	noprompt	syntax highlighting is better in vim i'll say that though.
00:38	sm0ke	yea, i think that smart people will make better use of notepad than a snob with his fancy ides
00:38	sm0ke	also there is much more in emacs than vim for clojure
00:39	noprompt	hahaha
00:39	noprompt	that's awesome.
00:39	sm0ke	isnt that true?
00:40	sm0ke	that isnt debatable emas is powered by elisp, which not to mention blows viml out of the waters
00:41	n_b	PHP practically blows viml out of the water ;)
00:41	n_b	I'm interested to see whether the NeoVim fork goes anywhere
00:41	noprompt	whoa hersey bro.
00:42	sm0ke	yep neovim is much anticipated
00:43	sm0ke	but i am not very sure about it. Can they deliver what moolenar has done for over 10 years
00:45	sm0ke	that too in 3 months? afa the funding goes
00:47	ruzu	what's the point of neovim again? some hipsters don't think the source is pretty, i guess?
00:47	ruzu	seems more like self-pomotion bs
00:47	sm0ke	ruzu: :) dont burn it man
00:48	sm0ke	there are some sensible objectives, cant ignore that
00:49	sm0ke	yea but the source isnt pretty part was the first objective :D hahaha
00:52	sm0ke	hmm future looks scary for timl in neovim, timl -> viml -> lua -> luajit bytecode
00:59	TravisD	I kind of want emacs to have some nicer GUI features, like smooth scrolling, et
00:59	TravisD	etc
01:00	noprompt	TravisD: https://github.com/noprompt/matilde/blob/master/emacs.d/init.el#L29-L31
01:01	noprompt	TravisD: whoops! https://github.com/noprompt/matilde/blob/master/emacs.d/init.el#L25-L31
01:02	TravisD	noprompt: I have similar settings. I wish it didn't scroll one line at a time
01:02	TravisD	it's a very small thing
01:06	Guest50112	I'm trying to test a namesapce containing an atom and this is what I'm getting
01:06	Guest50112	ERROR in (search-user-test-true) (core.clj:2108) expected: (= [] (search-user "username")) actual: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future at clojure.core$deref_future.invoke (core.clj:2108)
01:06	Guest50112	can anyone help?
01:07	seancorfield	The exception says your variable isn't defined to have a value when it is used...
01:08	hiredman	Guest50112: you are derefing the contents of a var with no value
01:08	hiredman	,(def x)
01:08	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
01:08	hiredman	,x
01:08	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/x>
01:08	hiredman	,@x
01:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future>
01:09	sm0ke	hmm weird error
01:10	sm0ke	it assumes x to be a future, can only fututres be @
01:10	Guest50112	but at the start of the namesapce I've initilized the atom as (def search-details (atom {:search-term "" :count ""}))
01:11	sm0ke	Guest50112: can you show the test as a gist/paste?
01:11	seancorfield	maybe that's not what your code is trying to deref?
01:12	hiredman	or the code that is running is not what you think the code is
01:12	sm0ke	:D
01:12	hiredman	(unsaved file, stale repl state, etc)
01:25	maxthoursie	,(clojure.math.combinatorics/selections '[b w] 3)
01:25	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.math.combinatorics>
01:25	maxthoursie	$(clojure.math.combinatorics/selections '[b w] 3)
01:26	maxthoursie	can I use deps somehow?
01:42	amalloy	not in clojurebot or lazybot, no
01:43	TravisD	Are there tools for doing literate clojure programming?
01:45	beamso	literate?
01:45	TravisD	beamso: Literate programming is where you mix prose and code in a single document
01:46	TravisD	beamso: sometimes there are tools that will produce nice PDFs of the files or run all the code and produce outputs
01:46	amalloy	there was a guy on the mailing list who was always going on about literate programming. is he still around?
01:46	TravisD	beamso: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literate_programming
01:46	TravisD	I really like the idea, but I never manage to write the prose clearly enough to be of any use
01:47	beamso	have you seen https://github.com/gdeer81/marginalia before?
01:47	TravisD	and that makes me sad :(
01:47	TravisD	I saw it after a quick google search, but wasn't sure if was the de facto standard
01:48	TravisD	beamso: Ah, but that is pretty much exactly what I was looking for
01:51	amalloy	TravisD: there's no de facto standard: i don't know of anyone who seriously tries to write literate clojure. if they did, i guess they would probably use marginalia
01:51	TravisD	amalloy: Cool, thanks. Out of curiosity, what's your opinion of literate programming?
01:51	amalloy	i think it's a lovely ideal
01:52	amalloy	i've never tried to become very well informed on it, but my impression is that nobody ever does a good job of it
01:53	TravisD	yeah, that sounds about right :)
01:54	alew	seems like literate code would be really awesome if it was released alongside research papers
01:54	TravisD	alew: That's one of the main reasons I wanted to start writing literate clojure
01:55	amalloy	every so often i read a well-written blog post, with code embedded in it, and they say "aha, gotcha! this was literate programming!"
01:55	amalloy	but i don't really see why it's any better than writing a blog post and also some code
01:56	alew	TravisD: are you writing a dissertation?
01:56	TravisD	alew: yep :S
01:56	amalloy	like, how important is it really that you have a codebase that you can run generate-blog-post.sh on
01:57	TravisD	amalloy: the only advantage I can think of beyond the writing experience is that you get some guarantee that the code and results stay consistent
01:58	alew	amalloy: Well it might be cool to say that all your programmers are also authors and you're going to release a book simultaneously with the product :P
02:01	alew	TravisD: what's the topic for your dissertation?
02:02	TravisD	alew: the title is "Gradient Methods for Reinforcement Learning"
02:03	TravisD	I'm looking at a few different problems that can roughly be characterized by that title :)
02:03	alew	TravisD: I was just reading up on Reinforcement Learning recently as I had the thought that it must be pretty much how the first organisms evolved
02:05	TravisD	alew: ah, cool :) I'm not sure how much of a role it plays in evolution, but I think it's one of the mechanisms that animals have for learning motor skills and things. I have no psychology or biology background whatsoever, though
02:06	TravisD	alew: if you want to talk more about it, perhaps we should move to private messages. This is getting pretty off topic
03:14	wagjo	Good morning (ugt) everyone
03:31	knight_	hi, How can I change my str encoding from utf-8 to gb2312 ? #(info (new String (.getBytes "测试") "GBK") %)) doesn't woks.
03:36	priyanka_	hey!!!! I am new to Clojure and need to test my web application.... can anyone tell me how to test the following html page rendering method : (defn login [& [pass]] (layout/render "login.html" {:user-pass-mismatch (vali/on-error :mismatch first)}))
03:50	vijaykiran	priyanka_: can't you use selenium ?
03:50	vijaykiran	or https://github.com/semperos/clj-webdriver rather
03:51	priyanka_	can such functions be tested using clojure.test?
03:51	priyanka_	vijaykiran_ can such functions be tested using clojure.test?
03:52	vijaykiran	priyanka_: what do you want to test ?
03:52	priyanka_	This one
03:52	priyanka_	(defn login [& [pass]] (layout/render "login.html" {:user-pass-mismatch (vali/on-error :mismatch first)}))
03:54	vijaykiran	priyanka_: yeah, you said that already - what I meant what's the behaviour do you want to test ?
03:56	priyanka_	I'm using noir validations on the html page. How will I test this function if there's a password mismatch? As in, on password mismatch :user-pass-mismatch has a value "Password does not match"
03:56	priyanka_	and the html page displays that error
03:57	vijaykiran	priyanka_: I guess you should prefer using clj-webdriver to test what the output is in the browser
04:31	wunki	when you have a function which returns a boolean, is it OK to wrap a `when-let` in `boolean`. E.g `(boolean (when-let ...)`
04:33	wunki	instead of OK, I meant to say, idiomatic
04:33	cmdrdats	wunki: why would you need that?
04:34	beamso	wouldn't the idiomatic version be (if (predicate?) () ())
04:34	beamso	?
04:34	ssqq_	How to make run a clojure script file more faster instead of use 'lein run'.
04:34	wunki	cmdrdats: because my function needs to return a bool, not a bool or nil
04:36	wunki	ssqq_: just a matter of opinion, but I find (if (predicate?) (...) false) ugly
04:38	wunki	ssqq_: one way is to use drip: https://github.com/flatland/drip
04:38	wunki	beamso: just a matter of opinion, but I find (if (predicate?) (...) false) ugly
04:38	beamso	i get that, but you asked for idiomatic
04:38	beamso	idiomatic need not be what looks good to you
04:39	ssqq_	wunki: thanks
04:40	wunki	beamso: yes, that's why I was asking, could well be the "uglier" version is the idiomatic way
04:49	clgv	wunki: nil is falsey, so just use when-let without the "boolean" except you really really really need a boolean, which you seldom do
04:50	clgv	wunki: and yes, (when (pred? ...) val) is idiomatic and NOT (if (pred? ...) val false)
04:50	clgv	,(macroexpand-1 '(when (pred? x) y))
04:50	clojurebot	(if (pred? x) (do y))
04:51	clgv	that's what the when macro expands to ;)
04:52	ssqq_	Someone tell me that use repl with require or include 'script file' to make run faster.
04:53	wunki	clgv: thanks for the explanation. I wanted a boolean because my function name is `valid-credentials?`
04:53	wunki	clgv: implying a boolean is always returned
04:55	clgv	wunki: I wouldnt be so strict about that semantic associated with "?" since most of the time in clojure code there is no difference if you really get a boolean or something truthy/falsey
04:56	clgv	wunki: if it makes your code much more complicated it's probably not worth the effort
04:56	wunki	clgv: ok, I spend too much time in Haskell lately I guess
04:57	wunki	clgv: thanks for the insights
05:08	lgs32a	is there a clojurescript minor mode?
05:08	lgs32a	i only care for hl
05:08	lgs32a	(emacs)
05:09	donbonifacio	I'm feeling the urge to learn clojure
05:09	clgv	donbonifacio: then do not hesitate :)
05:14	lgs32a	cemerick: how much work do you think it would be to write piggieback so that it provides the clojurescript nrepl on a different port - so that I can fire up a second cider-jack-in for cljs?
05:16	ssqq_	Have Vim 7.4 support Clojure syntax highlight?
05:28	dioms	h
05:56	cemerick	lgs32a: Just connect to the same server; it'll be a totally different session. You can have N REPLs going at a time, each one can be either Clojure or ClojureScript.
05:58	lgs32a	cemerick: that is awesome. I will try that now
06:09	ssqq_	Have Java 8 support Tail recursion?
06:32	lgs32a	if I have multiple nrepls, what command do I use to tell cider which nrepl to use with a buffer (for e.g. c-c etc.)?
06:37	CookedGryphon	lgs32a: you can cycle through them with C-c M-r
06:38	lgs32a	CookedGryphon: thank you
07:06	tpope	bbloom: yeah not my circus, not my monkeys
07:19	harshita	hello i have found exception in clojure java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future plz some one tell me why this exception is occured
07:21	wagjo	harshita: you have an unbound var somewhere. Most likely you have declared a var and forgot to define it later.
07:21	wagjo	harshita: and most likely you were trying to dereference this var with @, which causes this casting to future exception
07:28	guns	grrr... Is there a way to delete a SNAPSHOT release on clojars? I Ctrl-C my deploy once I realized I was uploading a SNAPSHOT
07:30	clgv	guns: why? you can easily overwrite it with another snapshot or release something stable
07:31	guns	clgv: I tried that, but clojars says it's messed up
07:31	guns	https://clojars.org/slamhound/versions/1.5.5-SNAPSHOT
07:34	clgv	guns: should work, see the following url there are 2 snapshots for 1.3.0 http://clojars.org/repo/slamhound/slamhound/1.3.0-SNAPSHOT/
07:35	clgv	and a release for 1.3.0 as well
07:35	clgv	http://clojars.org/repo/slamhound/slamhound/1.3.0/
07:36	guns	clgv: I see, thanks for the link. I'll just assume the page is cached or something
07:38	guns	or actually, all the SNAPSHOT pages look like that
08:10	mskoud	hi
08:59	mskoud	using map to generate a string from a list of maps, but the maps also has a value which must be summed. Hvo can i do this?
09:00	dnolen_	mskoud: sounds like you want reduce
09:01	AeroNotix	,(macroexpand-1 '(ns lol))
09:01	clojurebot	(do (clojure.core/in-ns (quote lol)) (clojure.core/with-loading-context (clojure.core/refer (quote clojure.core))) (if (.equals (quote lol) (quote clojure.core)) nil (do (clojure.core/dosync (clojure.core/commute (clojure.core/deref (var clojure.core/loaded-libs)) clojure.core/conj (quote lol))) nil)))
09:01	AeroNotix	what's the need for the (if (.equals 'lol) 'clojure.core) here?
09:02	AeroNotix	surely that could be removed and if peopole did that then it's Their Fault.
09:02	gfredericks	well it does happen once
09:02	AeroNotix	is (ns clojure.core) evaluated twice, somehow"?
09:02	mskoud	(map #(% :name) [{:name "a" :price 3} {:name "b" :price 5}]) : => ("a" "b") , would like to get 8 returned as well... without iterating again.
09:02	gfredericks	I just mean that the check is true at the top of src/main/clojure/clojure/core.clj
09:03	AeroNotix	mskoud: you want a reduce
09:03	gfredericks	with tjuxt
09:03	gfredericks	which doesn't exist
09:03	gfredericks	(reduce (tjuxt conj +) [[] 0] maps)
09:03	mskoud	ok. seperate the 2 issues and dot think about that i have to "iterate" again?
09:04	gfredericks	mskoud: you don't have to iterate again with reduce
09:05	AeroNotix	,(doc tjuxt)
09:05	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
09:05	AeroNotix	,(doc 'tjuxt)
09:05	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
09:05	AeroNotix	WELL FINE
09:05	gfredericks	AeroNotix: I just said it doesn't exist
09:05	AeroNotix	oh didn't read that bit
09:05	AeroNotix	what would tjuxt do?
09:06	AeroNotix	ahh I think I understand
09:06	gfredericks	yeah my reduce doesn't make complete sense though
09:06	gfredericks	,(->> maps (juxt :name :price) (reduce (tjuxt conj +) [[] 0]))
09:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: tjuxt in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:06	gfredericks	that would be how you'd have to do it
09:07	gfredericks	,(defn tjuxt [& fns] (fn [& tuples] (apply mapv #(apply %1 %&) fns tuples)))
09:07	clojurebot	#'sandbox/tjuxt
09:07	gfredericks	I think that's it
09:07	gfredericks	,((tjuxt + *) [3 4] [4 5])
09:07	clojurebot	[7 20]
09:08	gfredericks	,((tjuxt + *) [3 4] [4 5] [6 7])
09:08	clojurebot	[13 140]
09:08	mskoud	ok, thanks!
09:08	gfredericks	,(def maps [{:name "a" :price 3} {:name "b" :price 5}])
09:08	clojurebot	#'sandbox/maps
09:08	gfredericks	,(->> maps (juxt :name :price) (reduce (tjuxt conj +) [[] 0]))
09:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$juxt$fn__4213>
09:08	gfredericks	oh right
09:09	mmitchell	Anyone every seen this as a result of leiningen attempting to fetch dependencies? "java.util.zip.ZipException: invalid CEN header"
09:09	gfredericks	,(->> maps (map (juxt :name :price)) (reduce (tjuxt conj +) [[] 0]))
09:09	clojurebot	[["a" "b"] 8]
09:10	gfredericks	emacs: I want to setup some alternate keybindings for cider, but doing it in a clojure-mode-hook doesn't work: https://github.com/fredericksgary/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/init.el.symlink#L189-191
09:11	gfredericks	I think it just silently fails to execute the rest of the function
09:14	ned-	/join #golang
09:14	gfredericks	ned-: hi welcome to #golang
09:14	ned-	why thank you sir!
09:15	ned-	caffeine pills do not work anymore ugh
09:15	gfredericks	please make sure to run all your comments through gofmt before sending them to the channel
09:15	ned-	gfredericks: lol.
09:15	bodie_	lol
09:15	ned-	gfredericks: ive ran into that same cider issue whent rying to rebind, im busy now but ping me in a few hours and ill try to help ya out
09:18	gfredericks	I love that tests for testing tools inevitably have to test that a test can fail and name things with english reassurances
09:18	gfredericks	clojure.test.check.clojure-test-test/this-is-supposed-to-fail
09:43	gfredericks	reiddraper: https://github.com/fredericksgary/test.check/commit/b6b24585a65807ab03b76e04727d230725181bed
09:43	gfredericks	the simpler test currently passes, but the more complex one fails (due to not implemented yet)
09:43	gfredericks	this is the same code I had two days ago, I just didn't have it on github yet
09:47	gfredericks	I feel like it should be rather simpler than this
09:51	a3gis	hey! would someone have a good talk to advise for a clojure beginner? I am actually new to any lisp family language
09:51	a3gis	(I watched the serie by Brian Will already)
10:04	Guest84448	Hi, I'm using (clj-time.coerce/to-sql-date (new java.util.Date)) to insert date into postgresql and the inserted date is 2014-04-03. But when I'm trying to retrieve it from the DB, the date returned is 2014-04-02. How can I resolve this issue?
10:05	antonv	Guest84448: maybe it is timezone related somehow
10:08	gfredericks	a coworker was using test.check to test that dates roundtripped through the db the other day; the db type was a postgres timestamp without timezone
10:09	gfredericks	turned out there was one hour a year that didn't roundtrip
10:09	gfredericks	using the "with timezone" type fixed it
10:13	ambrosebs	gfredericks: badass
10:15	clgv	gfredericks: witching hour? :P
10:17	gfredericks	I believe it was the point when daylight savings time jumps back an hour, making that hour ambiguous since it happens twice
10:24	TimMc	NICE.
10:25	jcromartie	SWEET
10:26	mdrogalis	That's hella awesome, gfredericks
10:27	gfredericks	the funny part is that we were already using test.check in the project, but when I was thinking about testing db-timestamp-roundtripping I couldn't think of any reason to use test.check and figured a couple hardcoded examples would be sufficient
10:27	gfredericks	coworker used test.check anywas
10:29	reiddraper	gfredericks: very cool
10:30	jcromartie	sorry I actually missed the cool thing, gfredericks: what was that?
10:30	ambrosebs	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/#10:08
10:30	gfredericks	jcromartie: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/#10:08
10:35	TimMc	gfredericks: Shoulda been using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time
10:37	TimMc	gfredericks: POSIX time can be ambiguous around leap seconds.
10:38	TimMc	although I guess TAI isn't defined before 1971
10:39	llasram	TimMc: Yeah, but the current definition of UTC wasn't specified until 1972
10:39	llasram	Unix epoch time was originally defined in terms of GMT
10:39	llasram	and was only later reconned to UTC-except-for-before-1972-where-we-fake-it
10:41	TimMc	Point.
10:43	pjstadig	humans shouldn't be allowed to mark the passage of time, and I'll just leave it at that
10:45	gfredericks	"TAI as a time scale is a weighted average of the time kept by over 200 atomic clocks in over 50 national laboratories worldwide."
10:45	TimMc	and adjusted to sea level, I believe
10:45	gfredericks	which is rising
10:45	locks	lol
10:45	gfredericks	hey that's interesting are we going to keep updating elevation stats as the sea level rises?
10:46	pjstadig	https://twitter.com/pjstadig/status/401349780359483393
10:46	locks	"Mount Fuji is the current tallest peak, standing at 102m" - Wikipedia, 2056
10:46	pjstadig	https://twitter.com/tef/status/410797003489427456
10:47	jcromartie	#FiveWordTechHorrors is always good
10:47	pjstadig	https://twitter.com/pjstadig/status/441646573806968832
10:48	pjstadig	i'm done
10:48	pjstadig	oh one more https://twitter.com/pjstadig/status/450406019525787648
10:48	mdrogalis	Mic drop
10:49	pjstadig	now i'm going to turn in my computer and become an orchard farmer
10:49	mdrogalis	Sometimes I want to do something like that.
10:50	locks	do it
10:50	locks	"oh, let me just code a little calendar to help with the cro-D'OH"
10:50	clojurebot	Excuse me?
10:50	mdrogalis	Seriously though. Doesn't it occassionally drive anyone else nuts that you generally have to be creative every single day?
10:51	locks	mdrogalis: my code is pretty uncreative, so idk
10:51	mdrogalis	locks: Maybe that's the answer.
10:51	jcromartie	mdrogalis: being a programmer is existential torment
10:52	mdrogalis	jcromartie: Yup, that's it. Time to quit and head west to be farmer. IRC told me to.
10:52	jcromartie	"The http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination. Few media of creation are so flexible, so easy to polish and rework, so readily capable of realizing grand http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Conceptual_structure...."
10:53	jcromartie	WTF is that OS X or Adium or wikiquote.org doing that?
10:53	locks	probably wikiquote
10:53	jcromartie	"The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination. Few media of creation are so flexible, so easy to polish and rework, so readily capable of realizing grand conceptual structures...."
10:53	locks	right-click hijacking is ugh
10:53	mdrogalis	Yuuuup
10:53	locks	jcromartie: that's so masturbatory
10:53	jcromartie	and yet, we build CRUD apps to track inventory
10:53	jcromartie	yes it is
10:54	jcromartie	locks: but it's true
10:54	clgv	right-click jacking is the DRM of around 2000 ;) :P
10:54	locks	yyeeaahh…
10:54	jcromartie	there's cognitive dissonance in the capability and the possibility that the idea of programming offers, and the reality of what needs to get done
10:56	mdrogalis	I came to #clojure to sober everyone up about our CRUD lives :P
10:58	jcromartie	thanks mdrogalis
10:59	mdrogalis	You're welcome everyone.
10:59	mdrogalis	BACK TO WORK
11:02	mskoud	Seems like pr-str can print stuf that read-string cannot read, getting a RuntimeException Map literal must contain an even number of forms.
11:04	lgs32a	nrepl question:
11:04	lgs32a	I have two nrepls running, one for clj and one for cljs
11:05	lgs32a	the files belong to the same project
11:05	lgs32a	how can I make sure that cider interacts with the correct repls in the specific buffers
11:05	gfredericks	multiple repls w/ cider has always confused the crap out of me
11:05	gfredericks	I mostly avoid doing that
11:06	lgs32a	this won't help
11:06	lgs32a	I want clj and cljs repls simultaneously
11:06	gfredericks	at worst you can have a shell buffer open with a traditional `lein repl` running there
11:06	lgs32a	i don't want that
11:06	gfredericks	but I do think cider is supposed to support this, I just know none of the details
11:07	sritchie_	I think you do C-c M-r to switch -
11:07	sritchie_	but I don't know how to tie each repl to a buffer
11:07	lgs32a	sritchie_: this results in changing the nrepl for the entire project
11:07	mikerod	So, I'm working with nrepl.el in emacs. I accidentally cause an infinite loop on the nrepl server. I kill the server at this point, but when I am in emacs it won't respond, as if it is still stuck in the loop. Is there any good way to get Emacs to get out of this?
11:07	mikerod	I know I can just force-kill Emacs
11:07	sritchie_	lgs32a: yeah, I don't know how to tie each one to a specific buffer, I just sort of stick to clojure or clojurescript mode
11:07	mikerod	which is my current approach :)
11:07	sritchie_	mikerod: C-c C-c
11:08	sritchie_	kills the current running thread
11:08	mikerod	sritchie_: oh cool
11:08	gfredericks	emacs always responds promptly when I kill the jvm
11:08	mikerod	I figured there was something, I guess I didn't search for it hard enough
11:08	mikerod	gfredericks: interesting
11:08	gfredericks	I'm using cider though
11:08	lgs32a	honestly, I find this is terrible
11:08	mikerod	gfredericks: I need to, I tried to update and got a bunch of errors, so I abandoned it. I need to take a look at that again.
11:09	gfredericks	mikerod: you gotta make sure nrepl.el isn't around anymore
11:09	mikerod	gfredericks: I thought I did, but perhaps I failed at that part. :)
11:09	lgs32a	what are my alternatives? vim won't be supported much better, lighttable is too early
11:09	mikerod	I'll dig into again since I'd like to stay up to date with the cider versions
11:09	clojurebot	Huh?
11:10	gfredericks	lgs32a: learn elisp and read the cider source code?
11:10	lgs32a	Yeah I did read it
11:10	gfredericks	what did you find out?
11:11	lgs32a	It's a mess
11:12	gfredericks	I guess there's just no good way to do clojure development. You should use another language.
11:12	stain	what's the best way to do content negotiation in a tiny Clojure REST app? I've found various bits and pieces around the Githubs. Ideally the way I want to do it is to just thread in a handler that converts the JSON to other formats.. I might just write that from scratch if there isn't anything.
11:13	gfredericks	stain: does liberator do that?
11:13	stain	sorry, I've used Compojure so far
11:13	stain	perhaps, but it seemed a bit "taking over".. so not sure if it really is liberating!
11:13	stain	it has the functionality, but I guess I woul dhave to restructure everything.. or can I use compjure with liberator?
11:14	sritchie_	stain: you can use compojure w/ liberator
11:14	sritchie_	stain: just use an ANY route
11:14	sritchie_	and liberator'll take over the route
11:15	stain	OK.. because now I have it like https://github.com/stain/scufl2-info/blob/master/src/scufl2_info/run.clj#L85 defines a compojure context, which I then just write in at the main app https://github.com/stain/scufl2-info/blob/master/src/scufl2_info/handler.clj#L13
11:16	stain	so would I let Liberator just take over at the top level?
11:16	stain	it seems to me I would have to replicate every endpoint per every format
11:18	stain	I'll give it a go
11:18	stain	two random voices on the internet mentioning the same project.. so it can't be too bad. Also it does the Vary header for me, so that's a plus!
11:19	stain	what about exception handling..? I want to be able to throw an exception 4 levels in, say because a parameter passed in is not a non-negative Integer - and give an appropriate HTTP error code rather than a 500. Anything exist for that, or should I make like a NotFoundException etc?
11:20	stain	.. and catch it with another middleware
11:27	clgv	,(apropos "exception")
11:27	clojurebot	()
11:27	clgv	,(apropos "info")
11:27	clojurebot	(ex-info)
11:27	clgv	,(doc ex-info)
11:27	clojurebot	"([msg map] [msg map cause]); Create an instance of ExceptionInfo, a RuntimeException subclass that carries a map of additional data."
11:28	clgv	stain: you can use that ^^
11:29	gfredericks	stain: if you stick a :bad-request key in the map, or similar, you can catch it easily in a middleware with github.com/fredericksgary/catch-data
11:32	asthasr	Hey guys! Random question time. If I want to have non-blocking queueing of I/O (i.e., a file writing queue) but want to wait on all of them to complete before moving on to another step, what's the standard way to do that?
11:33	asthasr	My initial attempt used agents, but somehow that ended up leaking memory all over the place, and trying to use shutdown-agents to force everything to resolve just caused my program to hang... :-\
11:33	coventry	lgs32a: To get around the "which repl should the code go to" I run the cljs and clj repls in separate emacsen, and use one for cljs, one for clj. Still a bit clumsy, but it mostly works.
11:34	asthasr	Should I do something like put promises in an atom, constantly appending to it with all of the promises, and then just loop over it asking for the values?
11:34	asthasr	(this seems a little gross, because it's a side-effect I'm after, i.e. file IO, not the value)
11:37	coventry	asthasr: How does the waiting thread know that all the file writing is done, if it can be queued up from multiple threads?
11:38	stuartsierra	asthasr: core.async could be one tool for that
11:40	asthasr	coventry: True.
11:40	asthasr	stuartsierra: Thanks.
11:42	coventry	I was actually curious about how you addressed that issue in your earlier implementations, because it would effect the answer.
11:43	asthasr	coventry: I didn't think about it. My agent approach was very naive, and I didn't address the issue.
11:43	asthasr	coventry: Previously I'd just been doing the file IO in the loop, my attempt was to make it non-blocking
11:44	asthasr	(this is the first time I'd used agents, and I've applied pmap a couple of other places, my naivete is because pmap is so nicely transparent I guess I was thinking of the IO issue too simply)
11:44	asthasr	stuartsierra: Is there a good tutorial on core.async?
11:45	abaker	question on clojure best practices -- have an API that returns a list of things (via a network resource), is it idiomatic to provide only a lazy version of that list, a regular eager list, perhaps both and let the user pick?
11:45	asthasr	coventry: My biggest issues are, if the writing is async, it still has to be atomic (i.e. one line at a time), like a logger stream; and all of the writes have to happen.
11:46	asthasr	abaker: I'm not an expert, but I would think the best would be lazy only. After all, can't the user simply call doall on the LazySeq to get a realized list?
11:47	coventry	asthasr: Oh, OK. A core.async channel is a good way to ensure that.
11:48	asthasr	that is to say, maintaining one version seems superior for your purposes, and calling (doall (get-expensive-resources)) is not much of a burden for the consumer
11:48	asthasr	coventry: Cool. Is there a good article on them?
11:49	asthasr	coventry: And is there a good way to say "Okay, main thread, now you wait until all those channels are done with their writing."
11:49	coventry	This is pretty good. The video for the talk must be out there somewhere by now. https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples
11:50	stuartsierra	That video should be on the Clojure TV channel on YouTube.
11:50	abaker	asthasr: thanks, that does seem like the natural way ahead
11:51	tbaldridge	coventry asthasr: video for that code https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enwIIGzhahw
11:52	asthasr	tbaldridge: thanks
12:06	lgs32a	gfredericks: coventry: sritchie_: I wrote this to allow you to associate any open nrepl connection directly with a buffer https://www.refheap.com/71069
12:06	lgs32a	(instead of having to change the global connection)
12:09	gfredericks	lgs32a: sweet! thanks
12:10	gfredericks	(inc lgs32a)
12:11	stain	clgv / gfredericks: great, an Exception with a map was basically what I would make!
12:12	gfredericks	stain: yeah, clojure's built-in is great for throwing but still clunky for catching
12:12	rasmusto	does make-parents destroy directories if they already exist?
12:16	rootex	is the use of exceptions a normal/frequent thing in Clojure?
12:16	gfredericks	much more frequent than the Either monad
12:18	mdrogalis	I still don't get monads.
12:18	mdrogalis	Maybe it's just me.
12:19	rasmusto	~Maybe
12:19	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:19	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: they're a nice abstraction....of something that rarely needs to be abstracted, imo.
12:20	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I guess therein lies the problem.
12:20	hiredman	I know I've seen people complaining about compilation errors involving clojure.core.cache/through in here before, does anyone know what the resolution to that is?
12:20	mdrogalis	I should just suck it up and learn Haskell.
12:20	arrdem	mdrogalis: take me with you :P
12:21	technomancy	learning monads in a dynamic language is like learning FP in ruby
12:21	technomancy	theoretically possible
12:21	arrdem	mdrogalis: I got frustrated trying to type foldr (Data.Map String Int) [Int] :P
12:21	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: I try that every once in awhile...and then I come to my senses after reading "Learn you a Haskell" for about 1 hour
12:21	gfredericks	(inc technomancy)
12:21	tbaldridge	The syntax is just too much for me I guess.
12:21	Bronsa	hiredman: IIRC you might have the last version of core.memoize and an older version of core.cache in the classpath
12:21	rasmusto	you're supposed to switch to some other book when LYAH stops making sense
12:22	hiredman	Bronsa: nuts
12:22	arrdem	LYAH is terrible :c
12:22	hiredman	technomancy: does deps :tree show plugin deps too?
12:22	rasmusto	arrdem: got a counter-pick?
12:22	mdrogalis	Heh
12:22	gfredericks	I enjoyed LYAH I think
12:22	tbaldridge	arrdem: I find the text in LYAH to be fine, the problem is I don't understand why I need ++ vs <- vs whatever other wacky syntax they devised.
12:23	technomancy	hiredman: no; no simple way to do that currently unfortunately
12:23	Bronsa	hiredman: yeah, if you're using core.memoize in a plugin, you cannot use the last version as lein has an older version of core.cache in its classpath because of stencil
12:23	tbaldridge	that's really it....I find the Haskell syntax too complex
12:23	arrdem	rasmusto: TBH I don't... I read LYAH and didn't get a lot out of it.. I have "Haskell the craft of functional programming" and some datastructures in Haskell books on my shelf... and bitemyapp 20 minutes south of me on call.
12:23	gfredericks	tbaldridge: fixity!
12:23	technomancy	Bronsa: I think the stencil thing was fixed on master; let me check
12:24	arrdem	Bronsa: got a minute to comment on GSoC stuff?
12:24	seancorfield	dnolen_: what is the best IRC channel to ask questions about Om?
12:24	rasmusto	arrdem: kk
12:24	Bronsa	technomancy: on master yes
12:24	hiredman	Bronsa: the only plugin I have loaded right now is eastwood
12:24	dnolen_	seancorfield: #clojurescript probably, but answer questions here too
12:24	dnolen_	"but I answer"
12:24	Bronsa	arrdem: I don't really have much time but tell me
12:24	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: How do you feel about Erlang, then?
12:25	technomancy	hiredman: well lookit that... someone added support for lein deps :plugin-tree
12:25	technomancy	thanks, whoever did that
12:25	tbaldridge	much the same, but at least they know their syntax is bizarre. And Elixir fixes most of that.
12:25	pjstadig	technomancy: haha! open source FTW
12:25	Bronsa	hiredman: .. yeah. t.a.j requires the last core.cache, stencil from lein pulls an older core.cache
12:25	technomancy	ah, it was hyPiRion. should have known. ==)
12:26	technomancy	oops
12:26	hyPiRion	?
12:26	technomancy	the thing that confused me the most with ocaml was the precedence rules, which erlang doesn't really have problems with
12:26	hiredman	Bronsa: ah, so the new eastman doesn't work with older versions of lein?
12:26	technomancy	they're a lot less operator-happy
12:26	arrdem	Bronsa: Daniel Gomez commented on my proposal saying that there's interest from Rich in doing a lightweight clojure atop the existing compiler rather than atop your toolchain. I'm not such a fan but was wondering if you had compelling reason to move away from the existing compiler I could cite in a response.
12:26	technomancy	hyPiRion: the `lein deps :plugin-tree` feature
12:27	hiredman	Bronsa: or the reverse, the newest eastwood works with older versions of lein
12:27	seancorfield	'k, I'll join #clojurescript then for a more focused discussion :)
12:27	hyPiRion	oh yeah, I think someone added an issue, and it was really straightforward to do
12:27	tbaldridge	arrdem: I was there for that meeting, it was a bit simpler than that. Rich said that most of the stuff has already been implemented before and reverted. Namely static vars and lazy vars.
12:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: you must be wrong; technomancy said it was difficult
12:28	Bronsa	hiredman: you should ask Andy Fingerhut for that, but I think eastwood no longers uses :eval-in-leiningen to avoid that issue
12:28	gfredericks	perhaps you accidentally implemented something else
12:28	tbaldridge	arrdem: all you need to do is enable that code again, add compiler switches to turn them on and off, fix how things are handled with maven, and boom! you're done.
12:28	Bronsa	arrdem: err, it's written in java? :/
12:28	arrdem	Bronsa: that was my reaction :P
12:28	technomancy	gfredericks: hehe; I meant no way to do it without hacking lein
12:29	Bronsa	arrdem: also it's a closed system with no support for passes etc
12:29	pjstadig	is someone going to fix transitive AOT as a GSoC project, because I'd pay money for that
12:29	tbaldridge	arrdem: Rich's opinion was that this code could be done in a matter of a few weeks of work. Opposed to a matter of at least a year based on another compiler.
12:29	technomancy	arrdem: good way to keep people from submitting patches tho
12:29	Bronsa	arrdem: but I can see why Rich would want the Lean stuff to be done on the current compiler
12:29	tbaldridge	arrdem: a compiler that doesn't have 100% parity with the existing compiler, (no offense to Bronsa).
12:30	arrdem	pjstadig: shoulda written a project idea up GSoC apps are closed already
12:31	tbaldridge	I mean long term I think we need CinC, but if we can get what we want in a fraction of the time with existing compiler should we wait?
12:31	arrdem	tbaldridge: I mean if it's Rich's oppinion that upgrading the existing compiler is that trivial I'm happy to add a "code monkey the existing compiler before working on Bronsa's infrastructure" clause.
12:32	Bronsa	tbaldridge: right, support for that stuff is mostly already there in the Compiler, but I tested it a bit and it has a bunch of bugs
12:32	mdrogalis	What exactly are we talking about? I read up and still don't follow.
12:32	tbaldridge	yeah, perhaps that's a good route as well, that way the lean stuff can get into 1.7 and yet we can still do cool CinC stuff
12:33	arrdem	besides, it'll be an exercise for me in the existing compiler, which isn't a bad thing.
12:33	arrdem	mdrogalis: https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/student/google/gsoc2014/arrdem/5629499534213120
12:33	arrdem	mdrogalis: and CinC at large
12:33	Bronsa	arrdem: I completely understand why it might be preferable to add support for that in Compiler.java first and in part agree. There's no way CinC is going to become "official" anytime soon
12:34	mdrogalis	arrdem: Ah, okay. Thanks
12:34	rootex	what would be the benefits of CinC besides not writting Java for the compiler anymore?
12:34	tbaldridge	Bronsa: yeah, although getting CLJS switched over will be a major step. I've been pushing hard to get that project approved.
12:34	mdrogalis	Was thinking the same thing, rootex.
12:34	arrdem	rootex: adding support for passes..
12:35	arrdem	rootex: bringing cljs and clj onto one compiler in the long term...
12:35	arrdem	rootex: potentially enabling cljc and other instanity on a common toolchain...
12:35	mdrogalis	arrdem: You mean additional compiler passes?
12:35	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: there are no passes currently. The sexprs get analzyed and that AST is compile directly to bytecode
12:35	arrdem	rootex: core.typed hooks into the compiler... the list goes on and on
12:36	Bronsa	tbaldridge: sure, even not considering the benefits of having one unified infrastructure, it will be definitely easier to integrate t.a in the official compiler for cljs and will provide really useful testing before we can think of making a move for clojure
12:36	Bronsa	arrdem: actually, since yesterday core.typed uses tools.analyzer.jvm :P
12:36	rootex	arrdem: thanks
12:36	arrdem	mdrogalis: that is to say it punts on "real" compilation and analysis to the JIT.
12:36	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Oh, huh. I didn't know that.
12:37	arrdem	Bronsa: right. since yesterday. which is awesome! congrats!
12:37	mdrogalis	Interesting.
12:37	tbaldridge	nice! And core.async is switched over in a branch. I haven't tried to switch over core.async CLJS yet.
12:38	Bronsa	so if 1.7 gets feature expressions, writing clj/cljs tools based on tools.analyzer will become so much easier
12:41	arrdem	meh... I'm with Kevin here... platform specialization at read time feels dirty to me.
12:42	Bronsa	arrdem: it's not just platform specialization though. take tools.reader as an example
12:42	Bronsa	tools.reader and tools.reader.edn are almost the same code
12:42	ambrosebs	arrdem: FWIW It seems both projects are equally valuable. The tool.analyzer one is probably better suited for the 3 month timeframe of GSoC.
12:43	ambrosebs	probably worth investigating whether extending Compiler.java really is just a few weeks work.
12:43	Bronsa	but I had to do a lot of manual copy-pasting simply because tools.reader.edn doesn't support a bunch of read-macros
12:44	asthasr	Re the haskell discussion earlier, I haven't gotten far in it yet but so far "The Haskell Road to Programming, Maths, and Logic" is pretty good
12:44	arrdem	ambrosebs: I'd agree with that... I have a spare week or two in my proposed schedule, so part of me was thinking about a rewrite to try and do the Compiler.java mucking about first, at the cost of letting the t.a work slip possibly.
12:44	asthasr	very textbooky, with exercises, which is good for me
12:44	Bronsa	with feture expressions or something like that I could just write the code one time, prefix #-edn the clj specific read-macros and load that code in the two different namespaces with 'edn in features
12:46	gfredericks	does autocompletion work with cider yet?
12:46	arrdem	gfredericks: sorta...
12:46	arrdem	gfredericks: ac-nrepl is ported to cider and worked last time I loaded it
12:47	gfredericks	by just loading 'ac-nrepl' via marmalade?
12:48	arrdem	$google ac-nrepl github
12:48	arrdem	gfredericks: more or less
12:48	arrdem	~botsmack
12:48	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure-emacs/ac-nrepl
12:48	gfredericks	rightright
12:48	gfredericks	trying that now
12:55	ambrosebs	arrdem: It would probably be safest to choose to dedicate the entire time to either Compiler.java or tools.analyzer. This seems to be what Daniel is suggesting.
12:56	arrdem	ambrosebs: yep... after this conversation I think I'll reply and stick with tools.analyzer
12:56	ambrosebs	arrdem: for the safe of morale if anything
12:56	ambrosebs	*sake
12:57	ambrosebs	or go for the internship ;)
12:59	hlship	In Leiningen, is there a way to include a dependency w/o its transitive dependencies?
12:59	pjstadig	hlship: you can specify exclusions
13:00	technomancy	:exclusions :* would be interesting
13:00	pjstadig	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L48
13:00	technomancy	but currently not supported
13:01	Bronsa	ah btw tbaldridge I never had the chance to thank you for the talk you gave at clojure/west, I saw it and it was really good
13:01	hlship	Just switching from log4j to logback and it comes with a bunch of optional dependencies
13:01	hlship	lein deps
13:01	ambrosebs	tbaldridge: here here!
13:01	hlship	(woops, wrong window)
13:02	Guest77325	http://www.marketglory.com/strategygame/galahad1st for online gamers, if you didn't already, use this link to register on MerketGlory: a free2play financial strategy game where virtual currency can be converted into real money. It starts out slow but in time you can turn a good profit that is if you have the necessary patience to grow a little bit every day :P
13:02	arrdem	lawl @ spambot
13:03	pjstadig	who would have ever guessed that Guest77325 could possibly be a spammer?
13:04	tbaldridge	Bronsa, ambrosebs: thanks!
13:04	ambrosebs	tbaldridge: so I beat you to integrating tools.analyzer?
13:04	tbaldridge	ambrosebs: nah....I did my work a few months ago :-P
13:05	ambrosebs	tbaldridge: ah didn't realise it was in master
13:05	tbaldridge	I haven't published it yet though since I haven't figured out how I want to port over the CLJS macro
13:05	tbaldridge	and no, it's in a branch
13:05	ambrosebs	unified analyser plz
13:05	tbaldridge	I may end up shipping the JVM side before I port the JS side. Simply because any work I do will have to get re-done once Bronsa does his GSoC stuff
13:06	tbaldridge	what I need for the JS side is tools.analyzers.js
13:06	ambrosebs	that would be handy
13:11	tjd	i'm organizing my "external state" with stu sierra's components library ... and i'm thinking of making a "config" componenet on which all other components depend. not sure if this is a stupid idea or not. any thoughts?
13:12	stuartsierra	tjd: not stupid.
13:12	tjd	i'll take that as an authoritative answer :)
13:12	tbaldridge	a new age dawns for Microsoft?!?!? http://roslyn.codeplex.com/
13:12	mdrogalis	tjd: I do it, it works great.
13:12	stuartsierra	If getting the configuration requires calling an extra service like zookeeper then it would be very useful.
13:13	jcromartie	everybody keeps saying they are having success with stu's component library
13:13	stuartsierra	If your configuration is just data, like something you read from a file, then it might not be necessary to have a component for it.
13:13	tjd	so i've got (defrecord Database [config] ...) instead of (defrecord Database [host port username password dbname] ...)
13:14	tjd	stuartsierra: it's a file right now, but i am anticipating having to fetch it from an external resource in production
13:14	tjd	i feel like making it a component buys me that extensibility, for not a whole lot of upfront work
13:15	stuartsierra	That sounds reasonable.
13:15	tjd	thanks for that library, btw :)
13:15	stuartsierra	You're welcome.
13:16	tjd	i learned about it from your talk at clojure/west. i really appreciated how you talked about the tradeoffs at the end.
13:17	stuartsierra	I certainly don't want to claim that it's perfect. And there are some scenarios it deliberately doesn't try to handle
13:18	otfrom	what are people using for charting in clojurescript & om? c2 seems to overlap a fair bit with om. Anyone have examples?
13:19	danneu	I have a forum built with datomic. Each post has a {:post/topic <TopicRef>} attribute. And right now to show a topic, I naively (-> (:topic/_post topic) (sort-by :post/uid) (paginate 10)). Is there a faster way to do this now that some topics have a huge number of posts?
13:21	stuartsierra	danneu: you can use the index APIs to iterate over posts lazily, instead of loading them all at once
13:22	stuartsierra	But you can only read them in the natural sort order
13:29	danneu	stuartsierra: would datomic ever support ordered sets on a has_many attribute? is that something people have ever asked about?
13:30	stuartsierra	danneu: storing ordered collections is certainly a question that comes up. I'm not aware of any specific plans
13:34	danneu	stuartsierra: cool, thanks
13:35	gfredericks	arrdem: how do I start ac-nrepl manuall?
13:36	arrdem	gfredericks: er... you M-x cider-jack-in RET and then M-x ac-nrepl-setup I think.
13:36	arrdem	gfredericks: it's been a while.
13:39	arrdem	it's been a while and ac-nrepl was never too ahem tractable.
13:39	arrdem	it either worked or didn't and I never manage to bludgeon it into submission.
13:47	ucb	what's the best/most idiomatic way of doing a conditional (.method Object) call in a (doto...) block?
13:48	justin_smith	ucb: you could use cond-> but once you have conditionals you may just want to make a let block binding the object and returning the object
13:48	ucb	hrm, yeah
13:48	TimMc	ucb: I think you don't.
13:49	gfredericks	TimMc: I used cond-> inside a doto once; should I be ashamed of myself?
13:49	ucb	TimMc: I'm all ears as to what's best here. I have a flag ala :config-the-thing? and I'd like the equivalent to (if do-the-thing? (.theThing Object) Object)
13:50	justin_smith	,(doto "hi" (cond-> string? (println :OK)))
13:50	clojurebot	hi :OK\n"hi"
13:50	TimMc	Yes, but not necessarily for that.
13:50	ucb	err, s/do-/config-/
13:57	justin_smith	,(cond-> :not-string string? println) ;what did I do wrong here?
13:57	clojurebot	:not-string\n
13:57	ohcibi	hi, I'm having an NPE with this function: https://gist.github.com/ohcibi/9959348 it happens in line 5.. does anybody has an idea what could cause this? I tried around setting all params to nil with the expression in line 5, but the NPE wont happen on the repl then
13:58	justin_smith	from reading the doc string that should not have printed
13:58	justin_smith	,(doc cond->)
13:58	clojurebot	"([expr & clauses]); Takes an expression and a set of test/form pairs. Threads expr (via ->) through each form for which the corresponding test expression is true. Note that, unlike cond branching, cond-> threading does not short circuit after the first true test expression."
13:59	justin_smith	ohcibi: probably the npe is happening on the call to <=
14:00	ohcibi	justin_smith: hm, good point.. thanks
14:00	justin_smith	keyword as fn / = will not trigger an npe, ever
14:01	justin_smith	but if (:weight input) or (:token ...) return nil, that would make <= thrown an npe
14:01	stuartsierra	justin_smith: cond-> does not pass the threaded value to the test expression
14:01	justin_smith	ahh, that would explain it, thanks
14:02	stuartsierra	Is there a place to report a spambot that sent me a private message?
14:02	TimMc	,(= (reify Object (equals [_ _] (throw (NullPointerException. "Oh yeah?")))) 5)
14:02	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException: Oh yeah?>
14:02	TimMc	justin_smith: ^
14:03	justin_smith	TimMc: fair enough, got me on a technicality
14:03	TimMc	That's my job.
14:04	a3gis	yop! I've got a quick question: in the expression (f (+ 3 4)) where f is a macro, why is (+ 3 4) passed as a list and not evaluated first? Doesn't it behave like a function call?
14:04	TimMc	It's also a plausible scenario if you have a data structure checking for equality by parts.
14:04	gfredericks	clojurebot: TimMc is a DSL for getting you on a technicality
14:04	clojurebot	Alles klar
14:04	bbloom	gfredericks: sounds like a high-concept talk-idea for TimMc in the making
14:04	justin_smith	~TimMc
14:04	clojurebot	TimMc is a DSL for getting you on a technicality
14:04	TimMc	a3gis: Because that's what macros are for!
14:04	Bronsa	stuartsierra: try #freenode
14:05	a3gis	TimMc: haha I know but I would expect it to evaluate (+ 3 4) unless I do (f '(+ 3 4)) if it behaves like a function call
14:05	TimMc	a3gis: Macros take in code and spit out other code. The later is what is evaluated.
14:05	TimMc	*latter
14:06	gfredericks	bbloom: I'm a DSL for high-concept talk ideas
14:07	a3gis	TimMc: ok, but my point is that in the case of a function call, arguments are evaluated. So does the compiler somehow differentiate between a function call and a macro call and in the latter case does not evaluate the arguments (= quoted)?
14:07	bbloom	clojurebot: gfredricks is a DSL for seeding clojurebot with high-concept talk ideas
14:07	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
14:07	bbloom	d'oh typo
14:07	ToxicFrog	a3gis: yes.
14:07	bbloom	clojurebot: gfredericks is a DSL for seeding clojurebot with high-concept talk ideas
14:07	clojurebot	Ok.
14:07	bbloom	clojurebot: forget gfredricks
14:07	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:07	ToxicFrog	a3gis: macros are executed as part of compilation and are passed the code being compiled, not the result of executing that code.
14:07	justin_smith	a3gis: yes, that is exactly why macros exist, otherwise things like fn and let and def would be very very ugly
14:07	gfredericks	clojurebot: bblum is a DSL for seeding clojurebot with fun facts about slightly mutated people
14:07	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
14:07	TimMc	a3gis: Yes, the compiler knows that f is a macro as it is compiling that expression.
14:07	bbloom	:-)
14:08	ToxicFrog	a3gis: otherwise they would be heavily restricted - you would not, for example, be able to pass something "invalid" to a macro and have it generate valid code from it, which mostly defeats the purpose.
14:08	gfredericks	bbloom: that was how my name was spelled on the clojure 1.6 contributors slide at clojurewest
14:09	bbloom	gfredericks: i'll pretend like i wasn't too busy reveling in the presence of my own name to notice, such that i can blame that slide for my typo
14:09	a3gis	ok, that makes things clearer, thanks! (and sorry if the answer was obvious, I just started looking at lisp-family languages)
14:09	gfredericks	bbloom: my revelry is that I wrote ->
14:10	bbloom	gfredericks: are you saying that invented that macro?
14:10	ToxicFrog	gfredericks: wait, seriously?
14:10	justin_smith	a3gis: the easiest way to understand it may be to consider that macros are for creating syntax, and if the args were evaluated you wouldn't really be able to do anything with macros
14:10	gfredericks	well I thought I did
14:10	gfredericks	git blame is now telling me different
14:10	TimMc	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1121
14:11	gfredericks	I'll try github's git blame
14:11	a3gis	justin_smith: yep; I mean I understand what macros are for, I just thought that the compiler wasn't making a distinction between function-calls and macros
14:11	gfredericks	oh right
14:11	justin_smith	gfredericks: github git blame often credits the one who did the merge rather than the author of the thing merged
14:11	gfredericks	I just didn't write the title line
14:11	a3gis	justin_smith: but since macros need to be excecuted at compile time it makes sense
14:11	gfredericks	this finds it: git blame src/clj/clojure/core.clj \| grep -A10 'defmacro ->'
14:12	hiredman	I wrote a macro early on with clojure called \|> and I thought it was really clever, until I found out about -> and ->>
14:12	ToxicFrog	hiredman: oh thank god it's not just me~
14:12	TimMc	a3gis: There are languages where you can have different evaluation strategies with macros.
14:12	ToxicFrog	Although I wrote \|> in Scala.
14:13	rasmusto	86bfa996 src/clj/clojure/core.clj 1552 (Gary Fredericks 2012-12-06 20:20:02 -0600
14:13	TimMc	a3gis: Check out fexprs, I think?
14:13	bbloom	you can tell git-blame --before or --follow or a few other things to trace changes back past attribution-overriding events
14:14	a3gis	TimMc: cool, thanks!
14:14	justin_smith	bbloom: cool
14:14	TimMc	Mind you I don't understand fexprs, so I can't help you understand them. :-P
14:14	a3gis	TimMc: also, is it common in a clojure project to define your own macros? or only when you need a DSL for some reason?
14:14	ToxicFrog	Anyways, gfredericks, [-> ->> some-> some->>] all own. Thank you.
14:14	bbloom	a3gis: not nearly as common as it would be in common lisp
14:14	TimMc	It's relatively rare.
14:14	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: I just rewrote them :P
14:15	bbloom	a3gis: i'd expect a project with a few dozen public API functions to have 0 to 3 macros
14:15	gfredericks	I can't claim anything actually cool, just that git-blame thinks I'm cool
14:15	a3gis	right, that's pretty rare indeed
14:15	justin_smith	a3gis: in my opinion macros are mostly for the rankest beginners who want to know how the language works, and the people implementing language features, those in between should usually avoid them
14:15	ToxicFrog	Aah
14:20	a3gis	justin_smith: ok! one last thing: any advice for a beginner in lisp family languages?
14:21	justin_smith	maybe visualize your program in terms of the flow of data from source to destination and the new versions created in between? I am sure the rest of the channel has better advice
14:21	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:21	marcuscreo	I don’t think that’s how most lispers think of macro, justin_smith
14:21	justin_smith	marcuscreo: yeah, I did mark it very much as my opinion :)
14:21	marcuscreo	true!
14:21	marcuscreo	;-)
14:21	technomancy	a3gis: when in doubt, macroexpand
14:22	technomancy	well, that and don't write macros
14:22	gfredericks	don't write macros, expand them!
14:22	arrdem	I think yall could back off on the "macros are evil" tack and point out that the don't generally do anything _good_ instead...
14:22	alandipert	write macros, they're awesome! you'll know you've written too many when your program stops doing anything
14:23	a3gis	haha ok, noted.
14:23	technomancy	arrdem: well he's specifically asking for beginners
14:23	bbloom	a3gis: if you're learning, write LOTS of macros... just don't ship them to people in libraries :-)
14:23	gfredericks	always do the right thing and never do the wrong thing
14:23	bbloom	a3gis: in fact, implement a simple lisp with macros
14:23	tbaldridge	(inc bbloom)
14:23	bbloom	a3gis: there is no better way to learn
14:23	technomancy	IMO the homoiconicity stuff is overrated compared to the mental shift of splitting out the pure parts of a program from the imperative shell.
14:24	technomancy	syntax is superficial in comparison
14:24	tbaldridge	and besides writing macros will get you used to syntax quote which is useful in so many places.
14:24	michaniskin	just… wow. this conversation is preposterous
14:24	a3gis	technomancy: what's the big selling point of clojure if not homoiconicity then?
14:24	michaniskin	macros are a thing. accept it
14:24	bbloom	technomancy: maybe, but you can get that same mental shift from other languages
14:24	gfredericks	a3gis: immutable data structures
14:24	a3gis	technomancy: you can do the whole functional/imperative separation in scala for example
14:24	bbloom	technomancy: or rather other families of languages
14:24	technomancy	a3gis: well, bad syntax is a big impediment
14:25	bbloom	technomancy: homoiconic is not unique to lisp, but it's much easier to learn there
14:25	technomancy	good syntax just works
14:25	joelt	scala uses a ton of syntax.
14:25	gfredericks	Scala is a DSL for making new syntax
14:25	tbaldridge	When we write applications we want them to be extensible. I want my compiler to be the same. I'm just sad that Lisp doesn't go far enough (e.g. I can't extend the VM semantics)
14:25	justin_smith	gfredericks is a DSL for describing things as DSLs
14:25	seangrove	technomancy: In fact, I wish there were stronger ways of marking pure-from-impure functions
14:26	gfredericks	if you can't describe something as a DSL you're not trying hard enough
14:26	technomancy	seangrove: totally
14:26	bbloom	tbaldridge: contribute to eclj! fork that bad boy and start adding the "precision jit" :-)
14:26	technomancy	seangrove: after Option, I'd say isolating Unit is the most useful thing HM gets you
14:27	gfredericks	justin_smith's lunch is a DSL for getting strawberry preserves all over your sleeve
14:27	tbaldridge	bbloom: It's on my list...
14:27	coventry	What is Option/Unit/HM?
14:27	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm probably going to explore tools.emitter a bit before attempting jit. my code-gen skills suck generally
14:28	gfredericks	bbloom: hey this interesting
14:28	technomancy	coventry: HM is the hindley-milner type system; Option is a way of ensuring functions that may return None are handled correctly; Unit is the return type of a side effect.
14:29	tbaldridge	bbloom: nah, just emit clojure and run core/eval on it
14:29	tbaldridge	bbloom: that'll get you most of the way there.
14:29	coventry	technomancy: Ah, thanks.
14:29	bbloom	tbaldridge: haha that's not a bad idea... would work for js too
14:29	a3gis	erm and on the whole functional programming side of things, do you guys have an opinion on clojure versus haskell?
14:29	bbloom	tbaldridge: i actually already do that in order to accomplish deftype
14:29	tbaldridge	bbloom: I noticed that last night
14:30	bbloom	tbaldridge: but sadly defprotocol doesn't work b/c it assumes a mutable method cache on the Function object... which my symbolic Fn record type doesn't have
14:31	tbaldridge	a3gis: .....that's like going to MoveOn.org and asking if people have an opinion on Obama vs Romney
14:31	joelt	a3gis: opinion of what kind? if you are interested in Haskell, check out Elm language, I thought it was more approachable, even though its very similar.
14:31	ToxicFrog	a3gis: I find Haskell more ideologically appealing but I actually get work done in Clojure.
14:32	coventry	Yeah, I think Clojure is more pragmatic.
14:32	joelt	a3gis: yeah i was going to say Clojure seems more practical than Haskell.
14:32	tbaldridge	a3gis: bbloom has a really balanced view about Haskell.....
14:32	tbaldridge	:-P
14:32	bbloom	:-P
14:32	arrdem	lolz
14:32	amalloy	technomancy: calling Unit the return-type of a side effect doesn't seem right to me. it's a type inhabited by only one value; some side-effecting functions return Unit for lack of anything better to do, but stuff like read-data-from-file is a side effect whose return type is String (or whatever)
14:32	arrdem	famously balanced.
14:33	a3gis	tbaldridge: haha fair enough, I was just wondering because my uni is teaching haskell to freshers as an introduction to functional programming
14:33	bbloom	as much as i rag on haskell, i've learned a lot from it
14:33	ToxicFrog	Yeah, that's kind of my attitude
14:33	technomancy	amalloy: true; maybe "the side effect of writes" is better
14:33	ToxicFrog	Using Haskell has taught me a lot and given me more mental tools
14:33	bbloom	i view it as more of a wildly successful thought experiment than a language intended for use
14:34	ToxicFrog	But I don't actually do anything with it other than learn new things
14:34	ToxicFrog	I then take those things and apply them to the languages I do actual work in
14:35	joelt	a3gis: Haskell is "spooky" in that when you get the compiler to accept your program it runs correctly the first time, not something I'd say in any other language.
14:35	bbloom	joelt: yeah, that's not true... at all
14:35	bbloom	can we please kill that trope?
14:35	joelt	bbloom: I know I'm not the first to say it though.
14:35	hiredman	bbloom: but it is an increasingly popular meme
14:36	Averell	It's still closer to half-true than with other languages
14:36	hiredman	bbloom: that is like the 4th or 5th time I've seen someone say it this week
14:36	joelt	I know first hand so I can't retract that statement.
14:36	justin_smith	similarly, natural language is remarkable because if you can manage to construct a grammatical sentence you can be sure the statement is true
14:36	bbloom	you have to run your haskell compiler as many times (or more!) as i have to evaluate forms in my repl before you get a successful compile or i get a sane output....
14:36	pjstadig	FACT: if your code type checks it has no bugs
14:36	tbaldridge	I suggest we give more time to another meme: "If that's the case then we should write every OS in Haskell. Then we'd never have a system fault again."
14:37	rasmusto	justin_smith: this statement is false
14:37	bbloom	rasmusto: that's his point...
14:37	ToxicFrog	I will say that Haskell and Scala both have a higher rate of working on the first run than any other languages I've used. Clojure with core.typed is probably #3.
14:37	technomancy	it's as silly to say that happens all the time as it is to say that it never happens
14:37	michaniskin	FACT: in Haskell you don't need tests, because the compiler is enough!
14:37	tbaldridge	That's because you're already debugged them.
14:37	rasmusto	bbloom: i'm just connecting dots slowly today
14:37	joelt	of course its a false statement, but its also the experience you get with haskell.
14:37	bbloom	ToxicFrog: yeah, what tbaldridge said echos what i was saying
14:38	bodie_	I get the sense that Haskell is less about programming and more about program definition.
14:38	hiredman	you can tell if you are in an echo chamber if suddenly as from nowhere the same thing is everywhere
14:38	bbloom	ToxicFrog: mandatory static typing just means that you debug your programs before they run, rather than after they've run... frankly, i rather run them and SEE the bug than get an abstract description of a hypothetical bug
14:38	bodie_	if you can flawlessly define your program, Haskell will do the rest for you. :P
14:38	yoheydere	(new java.lang.ProcessBuilder "python")
14:38	yoheydere	Is that syntax correct?
14:38	bbloom	bodie_: generally: most bugs are in the spec
14:39	Averell	that is the worst argument against strong typing i ever heard :)
14:39	joelt	Averell: hear hear.
14:39	arrdem	.... are we getting invaded by #haskell today?
14:39	arrdem	wtf
14:39	technomancy	strong typing isn't a thing anyone actually argues against
14:39	bodie_	there's always Typed Clojure
14:39	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(Foo. "bar"))
14:39	clojurebot	(new Foo "bar")
14:39	pjstadig	technomancy: sigh
14:39	bodie_	most of the time, what you need is not a flawless program definition, but a good definition of what you want your program to actually do
14:39	yoheydere	Because I get "No matching ctor for class java.lang.ProcessBuilder blah blah".
14:39	bodie_	in my opinion
14:39	bbloom	Averell: i'm not arguing against strong typing, i'm arguing in favor of delayed verification
14:40	technomancy	,(+ 12 "hello") ; hello strong types
14:40	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:40	bodie_	lol
14:40	bbloom	frankly, core.typed is too little too late. a next gen dynamic language should come with a modern type system baked in, not as an after thought
14:40	hiredman	yoheydere: the processbuilder construct takes either a list of strings, or a java vararg of strings (which means it takes an array of strings)
14:40	a3gis	ok I think I got the general feeling about haskell on this chan xD
14:40	bodie_	see, you shouldn't have tried to add 12 and "hello" ;)
14:40	yoheydere	hiredman: I see, thanks.
14:40	tbaldridge	This is when I link this video
14:40	Averell	fine, i was lax with my terminology. seeing the crash at runtime is still worse.
14:40	tbaldridge	https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/useing-youre-types-good
14:41	bbloom	Averell: compile time is just run time for the compiler
14:41	bbloom	exceptions aren't crashes...
14:41	arrdem	tbaldridge: oh gods...
14:41	bodie_	clearly technomancy's program definition was poor
14:42	bodie_	Clojure lets that be your responsibility
14:42	bodie_	Haskell doesn't
14:42	ToxicFrog	bbloom: in general I would much rather see the potential bug at compile time, because seeing it at runtime is not, generally, reliable. The bugs that make me swear at dynamic typing aren't the ones where it dies instantly with an obvious stack trace, it's the one where it fails one time in a thousand when it hits a rarely-used codepath that your tests missed.
14:42	bodie_	there's a good argument for each, respectively
14:42	ToxicFrog	But which would trivial fail typechecking.
14:42	ToxicFrog	*trivially.
14:43	Averell	i don't think that you rather have runtime failures is one of the good ones.
14:43	bodie_	again, if your tests missed it, Clojure would say that's your problem, not the compiler's
14:43	ToxicFrog	< tbaldridge> That's because you're already debugged them. -- Yes. I am saying that I like debugging my code before it actually runs.
14:43	bbloom	ToxicFrog: so run a type checker as part of your test suite....
14:44	gtrak	tbaldridge: genius!
14:44	bbloom	ToxicFrog: i'd rather not be interrupted by the global type checker while i'm solving a local problem. i don't care if the bug is caught at compile or run time, i care that they are NOT caught during unrelated-development-time. as long as they are caught at before-deploy-time i'm happy
14:44	ToxicFrog	bbloom: with scala and haskell, I get that for free at compile time. With Clojure, I get it with core.typed. But not all dynamically typed languages have useful static type checkers.
14:45	a3gis	tbaldridge: hahaha gary bernhardt is always a lot of fun
14:45	bbloom	ToxicFrog: consider javascript.... you can pick what type system you want
14:45	bbloom	ToxicFrog: jshint is essentially a bag of ad-hoc type systems
14:46	bbloom	or you can pick Google Closure compiler
14:46	bbloom	which has a real type system
14:46	bbloom	the problem isn't static vs dynamic, the problem is cultural
14:46	ToxicFrog	I'm not sure why you assumed I'm using javascript.
14:46	bbloom	is there a default and automatically available type checker
14:46	bbloom	i didn't assume that, i said "consider"
14:46	bodie_	javascript is the ultimate sloppy dynamic language, just a good example :P
14:46	joelt	bodie_: ++
14:46	bbloom	jshint catches lots of dumb bugs
14:47	bbloom	if js was a better designed language, jshint could catch more bugs
14:47	ToxicFrog	Yes, and so does core.typed. Neither are available for, for example, Lua.
14:47	bbloom	https://github.com/philips/lualint
14:47	bodie_	i wonder what language that is written in
14:47	bodie_	lua... interesting
14:47	bbloom	lol that was just a random result
14:47	bbloom	not saying that's any good
14:47	arrdem	core.typed catches dumb bugs.. when you can explain the types of what you are doing to it.
14:47	pjstadig	i'm just glad that static type systems catch all kinds of bugs like buffer overflows, and sql injection, divide by zero errors and stuff
14:48	arrdem	pjstadig: I mean.. that's all stuff that you could do with a real userspace dataflow analysis like the Broadway compiler..
14:48	gtrak	implements NonSQLInjectable
14:48	bodie_	sql injection isn't a bug, it's a feature
14:48	bodie_	:P
14:48	bbloom	pjstadig: there are type systems for catching those sorts of bugs! for example, microsoft has a c++ verifier for driver code: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/hh454825(v=vs.85).aspx
14:48	arrdem	pjstadig: and you can totally do taint analysis with Haskell's types, it's just awkward :P
14:49	pjstadig	well good
14:49	pjstadig	then it's an easy sell
14:49	bbloom	ToxicFrog: my point is that i favor optional, pluggable, modular type systems that do not influence semantics and live in the term language, not a separate type language
14:49	arrdem	bodie_: quiet in the peanut gallery, string formats are never a legitimate technique for code generation
14:49	bodie_	you can do a lot of things awkwardly in haskell
14:49	technomancy	ur/web has a type system that prevents internal links from 404ing
14:49	pjstadig	obviously there are no downsides, and only upsides
14:49	bbloom	technomancy: haha that's kinda awesome
14:49	arrdem	pjstadig: lulz...
14:50	bodie_	I get the sense that Haskell is all about right implementation while clojure is all about right action
14:50	gtrak	arrdem: sarcastic or have you not seen the cljs compiler?
14:51	bodie_	the drawback there is that "right implementation" is a really broad subject which requires you leave no stone unturned
14:51	bodie_	while right action is only as complex as it needs to be
14:51	arrdem	gtrak: I can imagine the CLJS compiler, and I still hold that opinion firmly.
14:51	bbloom	gtrak: that's by far the worst part of the cljs compiler :-P
14:51	bbloom	gtrak: sadly we depend on gclosure & they don't have a stable AST
14:52	gtrak	well, someone's gotta be doing the concatenation, might as well be us.
14:52	arrdem	gtrak: that isn't to say I'm clean of the sin of string code generation, but acknowledge your sins for what they are :P
14:52	arrdem	especially when I come sailing by with the sqlmap/sqldump lulz boat
14:53	danstone	Sooo.... immutant, anybody using it? - tried spinning up connecting to my instance (fresh out the box) immediately gotten an error with core.cache/memoize deps... :S
14:53	arrdem	http://securityreactions.tumblr.com/post/81592960057/this-is-our-production-network-so-be-careful
14:55	gtrak	bbloom: yea.. I followed that rabbit hole myself trying to implement a feature in austin, tell me about it :-)
14:56	dnolen_	bbloom: gtrak: still not convinced that generating a proper JS AST has any real value beyond pointless NIH over the person years poured into Closure
14:56	gtrak	was trying to reload a browser repl on refresh with compiled cljs state, got stuck on a crazy gclosure stacktrace.
14:56	gtrak	might settle for just clearing out the compiler state on refresh
14:57	gtrak	couldn't figure out how to just take that as input and generate the right stuff to run it through the optimizer.
14:57	bbloom	dnolen_: agreed. you already know my position, but i'll reiterate for onlookers
14:58	bbloom	creating a proper JS AST is only a good idea if we do all the optimizations on the CLJ side and have no need to optimize the outputted JS
14:58	tcrawley-away	danstone: come see us in #immutant and we'll see about getting you fixed up
14:58	bbloom	would be nice to have the JS AST as data so that the emitter can be functionally pure, but that's one of those "ew it feels icky" things that doesn't actually matter for a successful compiler
14:58	dnolen_	case in point Uglify is a total joke compared to Closure on Closure optimized source http://gist.github.com/swannodette/9939192
15:00	dnolen_	gtrak: have you look at my CLJS analyzer/compiler tutorial - it ends w/ putting the source through Closure optimization
15:00	dnolen_	gtrak: though I don't see why you want that in a REPL context really
15:01	dnolen_	(but maybe I missed something)
15:02	gtrak	dnolen_: I'll take a look, I was reverse engineering the closure/build function.
15:03	gtrak	in a repl context, it would effectively provide the same state at the start that running a polling cljsbuild would give, though maybe I could just hack that in instead.
15:04	dnolen_	gtrak: closure/build is a bad place to start for anything do w/ the REPL
15:04	dnolen_	gtrak: https://github.com/swannodette/hello-cljsc/blob/master/src/hello_cljsc/core.clj#L317
15:05	gtrak	yea, I get what you're saying, but here's why I looked there :-): https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/austin.clj#L327
15:05	gtrak	hit my head on it for about 6 hours, learned a lot :-)
15:05	gtrak	so I was trying to concatenate the :compiled-cljs stored in analysis state with that repl bootstrap snippet.
15:12	gtrak	ran into issues with dependency ordering, so i found the relevant functions, ran into an issue with a closure prelude, fixed that, then hit a weird exception in closure itself.
15:14	gtrak	looked a lot like this one: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/155 java.lang.NullPointerException: Compiler.java:945 com.google.javascript.jscomp.Compiler.newTracer
15:22	doky	hello does anybody know how to swap list ? to update it when i remove/add item ?
15:23	gtrak	doky: huh?
15:23	brunov	(def t (f t))?
15:24	doky	gtrak: is it possible ? or only define new ?
15:24	gtrak	doky: you mean like a state-change?
15:24	coventry	doky: Do you understand about persistant data structures?
15:24	doky	gtrak: yes
15:24	arrdem	coventry: we just set! everything, right?
15:25	gtrak	try to express it as a lazy seq, first, then if you really need it, an atom or something.
15:25	doky	gtrak: ah ok thanks i will try it
15:26	gtrak	doky: maybe helpful ##(take 10 (iterate inc 0)))
15:26	gtrak	,(take 10 (iterate inc 0)))
15:26	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
15:27	gtrak	,(reductions + (range 10))
15:27	clojurebot	(0 1 3 6 10 ...)
15:28	doky	gtrak: i have list of user and need to decide who isnt/is in list when i get new data
15:28	gtrak	doky: sounds like a great use-case for filter
15:28	doky	gtrak: maybe it will works with drop to remove then ? or maybe filter ?
15:29	doky	gtrak: as you wrote
15:29	gtrak	,(filter even? (range 10))
15:29	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
15:29	gtrak	,(remove even? (range 10))
15:29	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
15:30	doky	gtrak: hmm ... i will think how to check two lists with it
15:46	CapitalSigma	hello all
15:48	CapitalSigma	what's the proper way to map a java method over a list of objects? i was expecting "(map (fn [x] (.toUpperCase java.lang.String x)) ["some" "strings" "here"])" but that isn't working
15:48	jcromartie	,(.toUpperCase "x")
15:48	clojurebot	"X"
15:48	jcromartie	,(map #(.toUpperCase %) ["some" "strings"])
15:48	clojurebot	("SOME" "STRINGS")
15:50	CapitalSigma	ah, okay. so i don't need to specify the type? if i had two different types of objects that both implement a .toUpperCase method, will clojure call the appropriate one on each?
15:50	jcromartie	and #(foo %) is just a shorthand for (fn [x] (foo x))
15:50	jcromartie	CapitalSigma: yes, it will
15:50	CapitalSigma	i.e. is clojure duck typed in some sense
15:50	CapitalSigma	interesting, thanks
15:50	jcromartie	reflection and some type hints
15:51	jcromartie	for instance, if you were to go in your REPL and say:
15:51	jcromartie	(set! warn-on-reflection true)
15:51	jcromartie	and then compile:
15:51	jcromartie	(fn [x] (.toUpperCase x))
15:51	jcromartie	you would see that reflection is needed to resolve .toUpperCase
15:51	jcromartie	but, if you defined:
15:52	jcromartie	(fn [^String x] (.toUpperCase x)) then Clojure will compile the function and treat the Clojure local x as an object of class String
15:52	jcromartie	and it will resolve to String.toUpperCase
15:52	jcromartie	you mostly don't have to worry about this
15:53	CapitalSigma	ah, okay. yeah i can't imagine that i would be disturbed by it -- i'm just very recently looking in to clojure and i'm curious
15:54	jcromartie	,(let [f (fn [x] (.toUpperCase x))] (time (count (doall (map f (repeat 10000 "hello"))))))
15:54	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 139.511392 msecs"\n10000
15:54	jcromartie	,(let [f (fn [^String x] (.toUpperCase x))] (time (count (doall (map f (repeat 10000 "hello"))))))
15:54	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 9.302624 msecs"\n10000
15:54	CapitalSigma	wow, that's a pretty big difference
15:54	jcromartie	but try to only worry about it if you notice that your interop code is slow :)
15:55	jcromartie	it's doing a silly thing 10K times
15:55	CapitalSigma	makes sense. that's good to know
16:10	tuft	just read that steve yegge software political spectrum essay. funny but also strangely satisfying to see clojure in the "conservative" category
16:10	jcromartie	clojure is all over the chart
16:10	gtrak	tuft: I like a lot of stuff he writes, but that one was really weird.
16:10	lemonodor	“A news feed of Clojure GitHub repos being talked about on Twitter”: https://twitter.com/github_clj
16:11	jcromartie	you can import a library and have a subset of your code be extremely conservative
16:11	tuft	jcromartie: yeah it was the difficulty in classification that was the satisfying part i think
16:11	jcromartie	while other parts throw caution entirely to the wind
16:11	jcromartie	http://content.worldcarfans.co/2013/7/30/big/1270233903587876992.jpg
16:11	gtrak	didn't have any zing value like the kindgom of nouns or the 'all class members are now public' essays.
16:11	tuft	gtrak: yeah -- he made it sound like clojure was a front for haskell or something, heh
16:12	gtrak	just forced and bizarre
16:12	technomancy	tuft: there's some backstory to that which he didn't refer to in the post
16:13	cbp	gtrak: I thought he had gone completely insane after that post :-P
16:13	technomancy	tuft: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/seajure/GLqhj_2915A
16:13	technomancy	"I tend to blog when I get upset enough about something, so left unchecked
16:13	technomancy	I will most likely produce a volcanic rant about how Clojure is deliberately
16:13	technomancy	trying to fend away potential new users with a shotgun and a mean glare."
16:13	technomancy	oops
16:14	gtrak	the yes-lang stuff?
16:14	technomancy	yeah
16:14	gtrak	haha
16:14	gtrak	I loved that
16:14	technomancy	I mean, this was the thread that led up to that
16:14	gtrak	clearly we should remove all lines on the road for fear of them 'limiting' us.
16:15	gtrak	well, I'd be ok with getting rid of stoplights, actually.
16:15	gtrak	at least in some cases :-)
16:15	mdrogalis	Just looked up Steve Yegge to find something and ran across this: "Clojure is strongly conservative, with a core overriding bias towards protecting programmers from mistakes."
16:15	mdrogalis	I.. Don't agree with that at all.
16:15	mdrogalis	The second part I mean
16:16	technomancy	mdrogalis: yeah, he's just got a bone to pick
16:16	coventry	Mistakes arising from state management, maybe...
16:16	mdrogalis	technomancy: I was actually digging for the Seajure post you were telling me about. :P
16:17	gtrak	thing is, clojure doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything.
16:17	technomancy	mdrogalis: get some popcorn too while you're at it
16:17	technomancy	gtrak: he's talking about batshit stuff like for loops
16:17	gtrak	it just makes certain favored things much easier to do, but EVERYTHING is easier than in java.
16:18	mdrogalis	I think I found it, given that Rich posted
16:18	technomancy	he's also talking about the community more than the language
16:18	michaniskin	and macros are money in the bank
16:18	mdrogalis	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/seajure/GLqhj_2915A/E0crn6zHLi0J
16:18	gtrak	like.. immutability needs to be idiomatic and easy, and it normally isn't.
16:18	gtrak	clojure fixes that, but we can still write to java fields.
16:18	technomancy	like, you can write an imperative for macro, and people will make fun of you. and he's saying that's bad.
16:18	gtrak	if it's sufficiently clever and horrible, I'd applaud it again :-)
16:19	brehaut	lols about a language ‘protecting programmers from mistakes’ without AR static types and also including nil
16:19	mdrogalis	technomancy: God. lol "How do we make you more upset?"
16:20	mdrogalis	People are just egging him on
16:20	technomancy	the problem is he's conflating clojure's policy of saying no to ptaches with the clojure community's policy of rejecting bad ideas
16:20	gtrak	'Whenever I've blogged like that in the past it has been incredibly effective. People pay attention and get to work fixing whatever I ranted about.'
16:21	gtrak	it's been 3 years already..
16:21	mdrogalis	I feel like I'm watching a movie as I read this.
16:23	gtrak	well, debugger tooling sounds like a good thing, we're still working on that.
16:23	gtrak	but we need it less b/c of immutability ;-)
16:23	mdrogalis	So what I don't get, technomancy, is why he got upset in the first place? Did someone PO him and he just went crazy?
16:23	technomancy	actually it kind of sounds like he half meant to write this post: http://sealedabstract.com/rants/conduct-unbecoming-of-a-hacker/ but then got distracted with some other things and wrote something completely preposterous instead
16:23	mdrogalis	Or is he always like this?
16:24	mdrogalis	Hahah
16:24	technomancy	all the stuff that actually makes sense that he's talking about is covered in the post above, but none of the crazy parts
16:24	technomancy	mdrogalis: he was very reasonable when we were talking in person
16:25	technomancy	(which is exactly the opposite of how you're supposed to do it; the optimal way is to say all your crazy inflammatory shit in person and be very reasonable and level in posts which are public record forever)
16:25	lemonodor	i read “"How do we make you more upset?” as someone hoping that yegge would give more details about his criticisms because they expected them to be worthwhile, not egging on.
16:25	brehaut	technomancy: he seems to be afflicted with being able to type exactly as fast as he can think
16:25	technomancy	#lifehacks
16:25	lemonodor	i met erik naggum in person. he was very friendly.
16:25	technomancy	hehe
16:26	lemonodor	lots of smiles.
16:26	mdrogalis	lemonodor: I'm an instrigator - my perspective :)
16:26	mdrogalis	Instigator*
16:26	brehaut	is that an aligator that goes left and right ?
16:27	brehaut	wait that would be an instagator
16:29	mdrogalis	Skips to part where Rich replies
16:30	technomancy	mdrogalis: there's more lulz in the HN thread too
16:30	jcromartie	(inc mdrogalis)
16:30	mdrogalis	Work day - shot
16:30	technomancy	I vaguely recall that going further off the deep end
16:31	therik	hello
16:32	mdrogalis	Well that was mildly entertaining.
16:40	a3gis	erm why isn't defn a macro?
16:40	gtrak	it is
16:40	tbaldridge	a3gis: it is
16:41	justin_smith	,,(:macro (meta #'defn))
16:41	gtrak	a3gis: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L318
16:41	clojurebot	true
16:41	gtrak	defmacro is later ;-)
16:41	mdrogalis	Don't tell Steve Yegge that.
16:42	gtrak	true.. he'd want a forward declaration there too. stupid single-pass compilers
16:42	gtrak	that make code readable
16:42	justin_smith	,(map first (filter (comp :macro meta second) (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
16:42	clojurebot	(when-first cond->> gen-class while import ...)
16:43	justin_smith	a3gis: in a repl the above will list all macros in clojure.core
16:43	a3gis	justin_smith: (macroexpand (defn hello [x] (* 2 x))) returns #'user/hello though?
16:44	gtrak	a3gis: quote it
16:44	justin_smith	a3gis: quote it
16:44	justin_smith	jynx
16:44	justin_smith	,(macroexpand '(defn hello [x] (* 2 x)))
16:44	clojurebot	(def hello (clojure.core/fn ([x] (* 2 x))))
16:44	a3gis	oh right; great thanks!
16:44	mdrogalis	,(doc when-first)
16:44	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); bindings => x xs Roughly the same as (when (seq xs) (let [x (first xs)] body)) but xs is evaluated only once"
16:45	a3gis	an argument to macroexpand should always be quoted justin_smith?
16:45	justin_smith	a3gis: as far as I know? I wonder about the exceptions
16:46	a3gis	justin_smith: k; I don't really get when something should be quoted or not. I mean, I do get that quoted avoids evaluation, but as I asked earlier if you have (f (+ 3 4)) where f is a macro I would also expect the argument to be quoted
16:46	sritchie	a3gis: macroexpand isn't a macro
16:47	gtrak	a3gis: you have to understand what actually happens underneath
16:47	gtrak	reader reads it into data, eval evals it, macroexpansion happens at that point.
16:47	coventry	You might not want to quote the input to macroexpand if you're testing some code-generation function.
16:47	gtrak	codegen emits jvm bytecode, object is instantiated, that's what you get as a return value.
16:48	gtrak	quoted just means, don't eval it.
16:48	a3gis	oh right, ok
16:49	gtrak	macros see it as the same data structures that the reader emits
16:49	gtrak	and it happens at a different time than a function call, that's the 'compile-time'.
16:50	gtrak	you can grab the function value of a macro and call it yourself as a function if you're really curious ;-)
16:50	gtrak	there are some extra args in the front, but it can just take data.
16:51	gtrak	here we go :-)
16:52	gtrak	,(@#'defmacro nil nil nil)
16:52	clojurebot	(do (clojure.core/defn nil) (. (var nil) (setMacro)) (var nil))
16:53	blake__	&(reduce max (map count '( #{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3})))
16:53	a3gis	gtrak: right; I find it a bit confusing to have parts of your code which is executed in a different phase but I guess I will get used to it :p
16:53	blake__	,(reduce max (map count '( #{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3})))
16:53	clojurebot	3
16:54	doky	i'm trying to find out how to use filter function, can anybody help me with this small example ? https://www.refheap.com/71178
16:54	blake__	Hey, if I have the above situation, but I want the set the with three elements rather than just the number itself...Do I have to filter that or is there a better way?
16:55	rasmusto	you can use (set ["viktor" "jana"])
16:55	blake__	Set! I was gonna say "into #{}"...
16:55	doky	rasmusto: thank you :)
16:56	justin_smith	doky: maybe you want remove rather than filter there
16:56	rasmusto	doky: you can also use a set directly as a predicate
16:56	justin_smith	because u should be empty
16:56	rasmusto	,(remove #{"a" "b"} ["a" "c" "b" "d"])
16:56	clojurebot	("c" "d")
16:57	justin_smith	doky: oh, never mind, reading failure
16:57	a3gis	gtrak: mmh mind to explain what "@#'" means here?
16:57	bbloom	technomancy: aw man, i missed the steve yeggie rant. i didn't get a chance to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yegge#Server-side_JavaScript and mention how i know ppl that i really respect who worked with him at google and wrote him off as a crazy person
16:57	gtrak	steve yegge would be proud
16:57	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:57	justin_smith	though remove would eliminate the need to use not
16:57	doky	rasmusto: yes i really want to do it thanks
16:57	doky	justin_smith: no problem
16:58	gtrak	a3gis: #' means the var, @ derefs it to get the function, lemme see if it works with out that.
16:58	gtrak	ah yea, deref isn't needed
16:58	a3gis	gtrak: so that's a special form?
16:58	gtrak	yea
16:58	gtrak	#' is a reader macro
16:59	gtrak	and so is @, but you could also use (deref ..) and (var ..)
16:59	technomancy	bbloom: I love how that was seen as really forward-thinking and visionary by a lot of people
16:59	gtrak	a3gis: while we're on the subject, reader macros work at read-time
16:59	gtrak	before compile-time even
16:59	gtrak	,(read-string "@a")
16:59	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref a)
16:59	a3gis	gtrak: I was actually googling that
17:00	coventry	What's the selling point for server-side js, anyway? Just that you can have the same language on client and server?
17:00	bbloom	technomancy: i think he's proof that if you write A LOT and try to avoid saying anything too stupid, then people will find SOMETHING to agree with you about
17:00	bbloom	technomancy: it's like politics, you just tell everybody what they want to hear & they'll ignore all the stuff they don't care about
17:00	blake__	coventry: Yeah, pretty much. You can share libraries and what-not.
17:01	gtrak	coventry: we can get our lean-runtime with cljs on nashorn :-)
17:01	gtrak	not sure if that's actually leaner yet
17:01	technomancy	bbloom: his posts about emacs are actually really good
17:02	bbloom	technomancy: you're proving my point :-P
17:02	technomancy	sure =)
17:06	justin_smith	coventry: it means that one guy can do client and server sides of a small app, in terms of workplace flow it can boost productivity
17:07	justin_smith	and reduce the need for an design that isn't duct tape and string :)
17:07	a3gis	gtrak: erm so with a reader macro you could potentially parse json into maps or something like that?
17:07	gtrak	a3gis: yea, cljs has one that does the opposite
17:08	coventry	justin_smith: Because it cuts down on communication costs? I guess that makes sense.
17:08	gtrak	a3gis: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-717
17:08	justin_smith	coventry: and the inefficiencies that can come with collaboration
17:08	gtrak	a3gis: 'tagged literals' are just a special, extensible reader macro
17:09	a3gis	gtrak: wait so you could literally embed anything inside a clojure program (like xml literals in scala) with the appropriate read macro?!
17:09	gtrak	hrm.. I think it still has to be valid clojure data
17:09	a3gis	oh ok
17:10	gtrak	because that just gets passed into a function at read-time, and the reader has to understand how to parse it
17:10	justin_smith	a3gis: it would confuse emacs, thus it would not fly
17:10	justin_smith	:)
17:10	a3gis	justin_smith: as long as it doesn't confuse vim...
17:10	tuft	how does one set up read macros, btw? i was trying to use some datomic # literals the other day and couldn't figure it out...
17:10	gtrak	ie, you can't specify what's a token or not, just how to deal with the data.
17:11	a3gis	gtrak: right that makes sense
17:12	gtrak	tuft: http://clojure.org/reader#The Reader--Tagged Literals
17:13	sritchie	a3gis: that's how it is in common lisp, btw
17:13	sritchie	you can embed, like, XML or Python directly, and have the reader macro parse it into valid data
17:13	a3gis	sritchie: clojure is the first lisp-family language I am learning though
17:13	a3gis	sritchie: but if you can do that kind of thing it's really cool :o
17:14	gtrak	slightly terrifying :-)
17:14	gtrak	I balk enough at DSL's as it is
17:14	sritchie	:)
17:14	a3gis	haha well I didn't say you should actually use it but it's nice to have that power
17:16	gtrak	you can get it here, just not inline in the source
17:16	gtrak	or use your own reader :-)
17:17	tuft	gtrak: thanks
17:17	gtrak	or just embed python, we're on the jvm
17:32	lemonodor	bbloom: when i was at google, i didn’t work with yegge but he created some really useful tools and his posts (“we don’t get platforms”) etc. were pretty right on
17:32	bbloom	lemonodor: i'm not saying he's of no value, he's written some things i quite like
17:35	blake__	Aha!
17:35	blake__	,(last (sort-by count '( #{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3})))
17:35	clojurebot	#{:1 :2 :3}
17:36	amalloy	blake__: ##(doc max-key)
17:36	amalloy	Raynes: lazybot still seems to be having trouble talking
17:36	amalloy	,(doc max-key)
17:36	clojurebot	"([k x] [k x y] [k x y & more]); Returns the x for which (k x), a number, is greatest."
17:36	Raynes	$kill
17:36	Raynes	bops*
17:37	Raynes	$kill
17:37	Raynes	plz
17:37	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
17:37	Raynes	Thnx
17:38	Raynes	It isn't.
17:38	blake__	amalloy: That doesn't look like the same to me. I guess could map count and then use it?
17:38	amalloy	&(max-key count #{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3})
17:38	lazybot	⇒ #{:1 :3 :2}
17:39	blake__	So...clearly it is. =P
17:40	blake__	Oh, okay. Literacy problem.
17:40	justin_smith	blake__: you would need to use apply if all of the things are in a list
17:40	gtrak	I have never used that function
17:41	gtrak	looks useful though :-)
17:41	gtrak	reminds me of the github based clojure.core heatmap I want to write.
17:41	blake__	Wait, my real example is giving me a different result.
17:42	amalloy	blake__: you probably made the mistake justin_smith just warned about
17:42	blake__	the apply?
17:42	amalloy	indeed
17:42	bbloom	&(max-key count [#{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3}])
17:42	lazybot	⇒ [#{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :3 :2}]
17:42	bbloom	&(apply max-key count [#{} #{:1} #{:1 :2} #{:1 :2 :3}])
17:42	lazybot	⇒ #{:1 :3 :2}
17:44	blake__	OK, that works. WTF was I getting before? puzzles
17:44	blake__	Everything? %^P
17:46	blake__	Oh...okay, so without the apply, I have just one item of everything, which is returned.
17:48	justin_smith	right
17:49	justin_smith	nesting levels, the hurdle that trips every learner at least 100 times
17:49	blake__	Hey...only 87 times to go...
17:51	gtrak	get used to it, it's lisp after all
17:51	TravisD	ooh, get used to what? I just joined
17:51	gtrak	traversing levels of nestedness :-)
17:52	gtrak	with your mind!
17:52	justin_smith	and errors caused by anticipating the wrong level of nestedness
17:52	TravisD	is nestedness really a lisp thing?
17:52	blake__	I'm getting there.
17:52	gtrak	maybe just the uniformity of the nesting
17:52	blake__	lists of lists
17:52	justin_smith	TravisD: in another language it would be method not found / type errors
17:53	gtrak	makes it look like a bowl of macaroni
17:53	gtrak	instead of OO spaghetti
17:53	TravisD	justin_smith: I wasn't here for the earlier conversation. Not sure what errors are being discussed
17:53	justin_smith	for dinner I will have ravioli, stuffed with ravioli, stuffed with ravioli, stuffed with nil
17:53	justin_smith	ahh, just generic "too many / few levels of sequence expected"
17:53	gtrak	you can't unsee it: http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/m/macaroni-5853.jpg
17:53	pjstadig	mmmm ... spaghetti O's
17:54	TravisD	gtrak: Heh. All those little delicious parens
17:57	brehaut	adding ‘cat throws up on the carpet’ to list of things that take me out of the coding zone
17:59	yedi	in om: i have a block of text (with new lines, other spaces). I also have a map with a mapping from index of a word in the text=> to color. I want each word in the block of text to have a background color according to the word=>color mapping
18:00	yedi	i was going to create a function that returned a span wrapping the word with the proper color applied. and then map that function to the text split on whitespace
18:00	yedi	however when rednering this, all the whitespace would get removed
18:00	yedi	is there a better way to accomplish this and preserve white space
18:01	justin_smith	yedi: convert white spaces to html entities representing white space as appropriate?
18:02	coventry	Try (apply str (interpose " " spans))
18:02	amalloy	coventry: never (apply str (interpose anything)) - it's just clojure.string/join
18:02	coventry	Oh, I guess str isn't appropriate anyway.
18:03	coventry	Thanks, had forgotten about join.
18:03	yedi	justin_smith coventry amalloy: here's some starting code: https://gist.github.com/yedi/9963775
18:04	gtrak	staring at the macaroni makes me both uncomfortable and excited.
18:04	yedi	my main issue is that i have to get rid of the whitespace in order for the indexes to be correct. (since the indexes are only for words)
18:04	gtrak	uncomfortable because of the disorganization, excited because of the possibilities.
18:05	yedi	it'd be cool if i could split on whitespace but still retain the whitespace info. and then call the word-span fn on just words (while preserving the index correctly), and render the whitespace normally
18:05	yedi	not sure if any of that made sense
18:08	amalloy	yedi: i mean, there's partition-by
18:08	blake__	yedi: Don't you retain the whitespace info by virtue of still having the original immutable string around?
18:08	justin_smith	,(partition-by #{\space \tab \newline} "this is a string\nwhatever")
18:08	clojurebot	((\t \h \i \s) (\space) (\i \s) (\space \space) (\a) ...)
18:08	justin_smith	that could help?
18:08	coventry	(do (require '[clojure.string :as s]) (s/split "foo bar baz" #"\b"))
18:08	coventry	,(do (require '[clojure.string :as s]) (s/split "foo bar baz" #"\b"))
18:08	clojurebot	["" "foo" " " "bar" " " ...]
18:09	coventry	That's going to break on punctuation, though.
18:09	doky	is it possible to to extract from set of maps -> list of values for key (for example :name) ?
18:10	doky	without to do it through sequence ?
18:10	justin_smith	(map :name #{{:name "a"} {:name "b"}}) ; don't know if you mean set of maps literally
18:10	justin_smith	,(map :name #{{:name "a"} {:name "b"}}) ; don't know if you mean set of maps literally
18:10	clojurebot	("b" "a")
18:10	yedi	thanks for the help guys, partition-by looks promising as well splitting on \b
18:11	justin_smith	if you can make native string/regex stuff work, that will perform better
18:11	doky	justin_smith: woow thanks :)
18:14	justin_smith	doky: yeah, clojure is good at that kind of stuff
18:14	doky	justin_smith: yes it is but im not as good as i should :)
18:15	doky	justin_smith: i think that sometimes it os really hard to construct this stuff
18:16	gtrak	doky: you just gotta memorize clojure.core, 4clojure will help with muscle-memory.
18:16	AimHere	Well the clojure cheatsheet is my go-to clojure reference
18:16	AimHere	For those bits I never quite memorize
18:17	doky	gtrak: AimHere thanks i will try it :)
18:35	yedi	gawd i just love the repl
18:36	justin_smith	yedi: indeed, I think large numbers of small rewarding tasks is pretty much the perfect structure for acquiring a skill
18:37	justin_smith	(or solving specific problems for that matter)
18:39	brehaut	with Om, how do you make render output two sibling nodes without wrapping them in some container element?
18:40	seangrove	brehaut: You'll need to wrap them
18:40	brehaut	seangrove: well, thats a bit pants then
18:40	Guest88442	hello, learning clojure right now, what does ^ mean? i.e. ^HtmlPage
18:40	seangrove	It is what it is
18:40	brehaut	Guest53104: metadata
18:40	Guest88442	Metadata>
18:40	Guest88442	?
18:41	brehaut	Guest53104: it associates the metadata {:tag HtmlPage} with the following form.
18:41	justin_smith	specifically in that case, it is a type hint, telling the compiler what type a binding should have
18:41	justin_smith	or maybe not?
18:41	brehaut	justin_smith: s/should/probably/
18:42	justin_smith	ahh, right
18:42	Guest88442	What exactly can metadata be used for?
18:42	justin_smith	to prevent type reflection
18:42	justin_smith	to allow unboxing
18:42	brehaut	Guest53104: anything you like. the compiler uses it for abunch of things like doctypes, type hints
18:42	justin_smith	to mark forms as macros
18:42	brehaut	Guest53104: its also used for contracts (pre and post conditions)
18:43	technomancy	to track who you're calling on the phone, for evil NSA usage
18:43	justin_smith	add documentation strings
18:43	justin_smith	etc.
18:43	justin_smith	,(meta #'meta) ; you can use meta to see metadata
18:43	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name meta, :added "1.0", :file "clojure/core.clj", :static true, ...}
18:43	justin_smith	(meta #'meta) is so meta
18:44	brehaut	seangrove: does om replace the contents of the root completely, or append to the bottom of it?
18:44	seangrove	What's your use case?
18:44	brehaut	seangrove: i have a section that represents a root, and i want to add a header to it (its a static header)
18:45	brehaut	seangrove: if i can just slap it straight into my markup thats fine
18:51	blake__	I moved working code from my REPL to my clj and am getting errors... Where's a good place to look to figure them out? (It doesn't appear to be a definition issue.)
18:53	justin_smith	what kind of errors?
18:54	blake__	"Key must be integer".
18:54	blake__	So I'm thinking something's being interpreted as a value passed to a vector.
18:54	justin_smith	yeah, sounds like a vector ended up in the calling position somewhere
18:54	justin_smith	or some number was nil
18:55	blake__	ooh...nil...maybe it's a definition in my REPL =not= in my clj...
18:55	blake__	(wish I could see what's actually happening when it's called...)
18:57	technomancy	you could try tools.trace
18:58	blake__	technomancy: thanks!
18:59	justin_smith	cool
19:02	a3gis	hello again; I was trying to write a macro to sum up a list: (defmacro sum [x] (concat '(+) x)) works for (sum (1 2 3)) but not for (sum (range 10)) (since range is not evaluated). I changed it to (defmacro sum [x] (concat '(+) (eval x))), which now works for ranges but not for list literals. Any idea on how to make it work on both? (I know I should use reduce for that kind of thing; just playing with macros)
19:02	tolstoy	Is there a way, in EBNF (or ABNF) (instaparser) to describe that two things must be present, but they can be in any order?
19:03	tolstoy	(Or three, or four, or five things.)
19:03	justin_smith	a3gis: why not use [1 2 3] or '(1 2 3) - other than the fact that in this case the fact that it is a macro is useless
19:03	a3gis	justin_smith: right that works; thanks!
19:07	cbp	tolstoy: if you want a permutation then I don't think so (without enumerating all possible permutations). If you just want a combination you can use or?
19:08	tolstoy	cbp: Alas. (Though understandable.) I'm kinda using it to "validate" some docs.
19:32	tpope	is leiningen 2.3.2+ uptake high enough that I can drop support for repl port files other than .nrepl-port yet?
19:36	technomancy	tpope: maybe? https://www.refheap.com/71269
19:36	technomancy	tpope: I would say as long as the error message is good, go for it
19:37	technomancy	tpope: that log file is just under one day's worth of traffic fwiw
19:37	technomancy	not a very representative sample, but whatever
19:38	xeqi	one days of logs, presumably greping the user agent string used to download deps
19:38	xeqi	technomancy: 1.7?
19:38	technomancy	xeqi: zero hits for Leiningen/1
19:38	xeqi	!
19:39	xeqi	hurray
19:39	technomancy	but I think that's because it's reported differently
19:39	technomancy	I mean, 1.x didn't use aether
19:39	xeqi	hmm, thats right. it's a different string entirely
19:44	tpope	technomancy: hmm yeah maybe indeed. I assume that doesn't even factor in existing installs
19:45	technomancy	tpope: not sure I follow
19:45	tpope	technomancy: I mean those logs are just the number of installs happening, not a survey of what's already installed on people's machines
19:45	tpope	unless I'm missing something
19:46	technomancy	tpope: sorry, that's the nginx log from clojars.org
19:46	technomancy	so each hit is a separate lib or maven-metadata.xml file being fetched
19:46	technomancy	not downloads of lein itself
19:46	tpope	oh!
19:47	yedi	in om: does anyone know why this line: (dom/h2 #js {:color "red"} "No View hooked Up") isn't giving me an h2 element with color="red" set?
19:47	yedi	it's also seeming impossible to get style to work right
19:48	amalloy	yedi: i don't think color is a legal attribute for hN?
19:48	yedi	(d/h2 #js {:style {:color "red"}} "No View Hooked Up") => style="cnt:1px;arr::color,red;cljs$lang$protocol_mask$partition1$:8196px;cljs$lang$protocol_mask$partition0$:16123663px;"
19:48	amalloy	like, it's supposed to be style="color:red" or something?
19:49	`szx	yedi: shouldn't that be #js {:style #js {:color "red"}} ?
19:49	amalloy	and #js can't magically know you want that map collapsed into a string
19:50	yedi	oo lemme try
19:50	amalloy	#js {:style "color:red"}
19:50	amalloy	but i guess maybe d/h2 does that
19:50	yedi	amalloy: i tried using string at first, but i get an error from an om protocol saying the style attr expects a map
19:50	seangrove	`szx: Yes, you're right. it must be a #js obj
19:50	pandeiro	is it possible to connect cider to a drawbridge (nrepl over http) connection?
19:51	technomancy	pandeiro: sadly no
19:51	technomancy	someone needs to write an adapter
19:51	pandeiro	technomancy: :headless works fine for my use case; i was just wondering
19:51	yedi	`szx: thanks, that did the trick!
19:52	technomancy	headless?
19:52	technomancy	huh... I wonder how hard it would be to write an nrepl brige
19:52	pandeiro	technomancy: i am running a server locally so i will just start it up with `lein repl :headless ...` rather than `lein run`
19:53	malyn	technomancy: I wrote one, but it's kind of a mess and I haven't wanted to share it yet...
19:53	malyn	lein-catapult FTW! ;)
19:54	technomancy	malyn: cool!
19:54	pandeiro	what is lein catapult?
19:54	malyn	I'll try and get it cleaned up in the next couple of days. I used it this morning and had forgotten about the shocking number of println's in there...
19:55	technomancy	pandeiro: I don't see how drawbridge comes into play for that though
19:55	technomancy	you can :connect without http
19:56	malyn	pandeiro: It's what I called my Leiningen plugin that lets you go from TCP/IP nREPL to Drawbridge. You know, maybe you're cozied up to your (vim-)fireplace and can't quite make it to the Drawbridge... well, here's a catapult then!
19:56	pandeiro	technomancy: so i have a server that groups together several APIs that are useful for my day-to-day workflow: since i am starting it on xinit, i thought why not let it be my go-to REPL as well
19:56	technomancy	pandeiro: huh, cool
19:57	technomancy	definitely simpler to fall back to socket nrepl for that though
19:57	yedi	justin_smith blake__ amalloy coventry: wrt to my earlier question, this is what I came up with: https://gist.github.com/yedi/59f934b4f83ac396741c
19:57	yedi	thanks for all the help
19:57	pandeiro	technomancy: that's what i will do; i was just curious if drawbridge was an option
19:58	pandeiro	(i need the repl integrated into emacs to be useful; so, no)
20:02	tpope	adds up to just under 80% fwiw. enough to make me want to kick this down the road a bit
20:20	blake__	Does "expect" have any elaborations, like, "expect (this or that)"?
20:21	ToxicFrog	,(doc expect)
20:21	clojurebot	Huh?
20:22	coventry	Do you mean this? http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.mock/expect
20:22	blake__	good question...I've got "require expectations"....lesseee
20:23	blake__	"expectations 2.0.6"
20:23	coventry	Oh, this http://jayfields.com/expectations/
20:23	blake__	Maybe that's a little toooo minimalistic.
20:24	stain	gfredericks: clgv: Thanks for the tip earlier.. my ex-info-status works like a charm: https://gist.github.com/stain/8aa635304664473054bc
20:25	stain	I did initially feel a functional itch as I used exception handling for handling exceptions rather than some (or ) magic
21:06	gfredericks	stain: aw man another failed sell for catch-data
21:06	gfredericks	maybe I wasn't meant to be a library salesman after all
21:07	stain	how would it look with that..
21:07	stain	your example is too complete!
21:08	gfredericks	(catch-data :status {:as data, :ex e} (assoc data :body (.getMessage e)))
21:08	gfredericks	I think
21:08	gfredericks	the conditional is implicit in the `:status` predicate
21:08	gfredericks	also technically I did the merge backwards compared to yours
21:09	stain	yeah, it's important to not do the merge backwards, otherwise you can't override the :body
21:09	stain	as I'm sure there will be someone trying to do a 404 with a picture somewhere
21:09	gfredericks	ah ha
21:10	holo	In https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace/ reads "If the reloaded namespace contains defmulti, you must also reload all of the associated defmethod expressions." I don't get this. aren't all defmethods defined in the same namespace as defmulti anyway?
21:11	gfredericks	holo: when the defmulti gets redefined it lacks all the other defmethods
21:12	amalloy	holo: no, defmethods typically are written in namespaces different from the one defining a defmulti
21:13	amalloy	this has the effect of mutating the defmulti, so in one sense that's "in the same namespace", but you have to re-eval the defmethod, which is in a different namespace, to get the same effect again
21:13	gfredericks	I thought s/he meant something different by "defined in"
21:15	holo	gfredericks, you're answer is also right for my question because I didn't know multimethods internals
21:16	holo	(map inc [gfredericks amalloy])
21:16	holo	,(map inc [gfredericks amalloy])
21:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gfredericks in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:16	holo	:D
21:16	stain	gfredericks: hhmm.. now I tried with our thing, and it broke everything! :( I want my money back!
21:16	stain	your
21:16	brehaut	inc is not a function, its a lazybot command
21:17	gfredericks	stain: read the fine print
21:17	holo	oh yes, i remember
21:24	stain	gfredericks: it was Ring silently not telling me in the browser that I had screwed up the [:require] syntax - you're in!
21:25	gfredericks	PHEW
21:28	tuft	is anyone using immutant? i'm pretty burned on containers, but it does seem convenient
21:29	miseria	"no mendigues jamas calor y abrigo, la lastima nunca llega hasta tu puerta y el afecto prestado es un castigo" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival
21:43	arrdem	do we have a standard implementation of floor and ceiling that people turn to? I hate to do weirdness with inc and dec...
21:43	jcromartie	Math
21:43	arrdem	more stuff that was lost in contrib.math T_T
21:44	arrdem	yeah Math/floor and Math/ceil
21:44	arrdem	suggestions for a testing engine besides core.test?
21:45	jcromartie	people like midje
21:45	coventry	What's wrong with clojure.test?
21:45	arrdem	coventry: just making sure it hasn't morphed into a pile of glowing radioactive waste since last I spun it up :P
21:45	jcromartie	clojure.test is rock solid
21:47	amalloy	clojure.test does very little, and is good at what it does. midje does a lot
21:48	amalloy	i haven't used midje, so i won't state anything authoritatively, but i hear a lot more people debugging or complaining about midje in here than i hear about how awesome midje is
21:48	jcromartie	I had problems with midje
21:48	jcromartie	I had to abandon it
21:58	alew	tuft: there is the #immutant channel you might want to check out
22:00	holo	I had to port a lib from midje to clojure.test recently. clojure.test feels like having too many parens when compared to midje, and not very direct to describe tests
22:00	jcromartie	holo: but why did you have to port it?
22:01	holo	jcromartie i wanted portable tests between clojure/clojurescript, and clojurescript.test/clojure.test was the obvious answer
22:04	holo	jcromartie, sorry, I didn't mean "port", but "change to" :)
22:04	jcromartie	sure
22:04	jcromartie	I know what you meant
22:06	ToBeReplaced	arrdem: clojure.math.numeric-tower
22:12	holo	jcromartie, there's some midje like syntax for cljs included in purnam.test, but I wasn't brave enough to try it
22:23	_Bravado	Does anyone know a good tutorial on getting a browser connected clojurescript repl up and running? I managed to get cemerick's austin working before but am having no luck with a fresh copy
22:29	xeqi	_Bravado: I've been using the om-start template to start new projects with all that setup already
22:29	_Bravado	thanks
22:39	seangrove	xeqi: om-start or mies-om?
22:46	xeqi	seangrove: om-start, but mainly for things like https://github.com/magomimmo/om-start-template/blob/master/src/leiningen/new/om_start/profiles.clj
22:46	xeqi	auto setup of austin and injections to make it easier for dev time
23:03	arrdem	,(doc defrecord)
23:03	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); (defrecord name [fields] options specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the given f...
23:35	chare	So trying to understand how to make something like reddit with clojure. How does reddit or hacker news do comment pagination, how do they pull out from the database the first page of comments and the comment's replies, but do so without pulling out a potentially gigantic amount
23:36	beamso	the comment is probably linked to a parent comment plus a parent thread
23:36	beamso	so you could do a limit and an order by in the sql query
23:36	_Bravado	in short, granularity. The question is too vague to really take on though
23:37	sm0ke	chare: every sensible database has pagination buitin
23:37	chare	beamso: limit on the top level comments only or what?
23:38	beamso	limit in general i'm guessing
23:38	beamso	reddit gives you 200 comments by default
23:38	chare	so how do you know that ahead of time when dealing with a comment that has a deep tree of replies
23:38	beamso	but _Bravado is right in that i've answered it too simplistically
23:39	chare	if one comment has a deep tree of repiles that counts towards the 200 limit right? but you won't know it until you pull the entire comment's tree before looking at the next top level comment
23:40	chare	and how would that sql query look like?
23:40	sm0ke	just select * from comments limit 1000 ?
23:41	sm0ke	and have refrences of parent in each comment
23:41	sm0ke	let the ui take care of tree view?
23:41	chare	so that doesn't grab the replies of those 1000 comments
23:42	_Bravado	it's not a single query, i think you should look up sql to understandn why it doesn't grab 1000 comments
23:42	sm0ke	may be if you dont care
23:42	chare	_Bravado I don't understand
23:43	_Bravado	your questions seem to be more about how SQL queries work
23:43	sm0ke	yea, if you really are so strict about how many replies, you can have order in replies i.e. comment -> 0 reply -> 1 reply of reply -> 2 and so on
23:44	sm0ke	then fetch by orders and limit
23:44	sm0ke	would no longer be a single query though