#clojure – 2014-03-26

2014-03-26

01:23	startling	It seems like rebindings of dynamic variables don't persist past protocol method calls, is that true? why? can it be avoided?
01:27	startling	oh, no, I'm wrong. I see why, though.
01:29	startling	I pass a function that uses a dynamic variable to 'map'; when this function gets called, it sees the original value of the bound variable. Can this be avoided?
01:32	startling	example: https://gist.github.com/startling/9777360
01:34	startling	I suspect the answer is "make a pull request that judiciously eliminates all use of dynamic variables".
01:37	arrdem	startling: yep, dynamic vars tend to be a major code smell
01:39	ddellacosta	startling: as arrdem says...I have rarely found a situation where a dynamic var was the right choice. More to the point, using pure functions as much as possible helps being able to reason about your code, tremendously.
01:39	startling	ddellacosta: I agree 100%
01:39	startling	alas, I'm using other peoples' code.
01:39	ddellacosta	startling: ah, gotcha
01:39	arrdem	startling: yeah PR that shit when you get time to fix it
01:40	arrdem	startling: that's one thing I've been bad about lately, use a lib, don't like its design, spend the first two days rewriting it and then do a "fixed yo shitz" pr
01:42	ddellacosta	arrdem: that's kind of problematic though, 'cause I hate spending time on a pull request before I've had a chance to hash it out with the lib author. If they don't accept your fix for any reason it may be a waste...
01:42	ddellacosta	arrdem: I mean, still a good thing to do generally speaking
01:42	arrdem	ddellacosta: sure.
01:42	arrdem	ddellacosta: if I ever do finish cloutjure one thing I wanted to get to was library clout
01:42	startling	well, this is a pretty clear-cut bug, so I'm not that worried about it.
01:43	startling	I am worried about the author being MIA, considering the last commit is 2 years old.
01:43	arrdem	startling: which lib?
01:43	startling	https://github.com/lancepantz/clj-yaml
01:43	startling	lancepantz: hey
02:11	startling	lancepantz, I PR'ed a fix to clj-yaml; if you don't want to deal with it I'd be happy to take over maintenance.
02:24	TEttinger	SnakeYAML wasn't exactly a high-performance library last I heard. someone mentioned taking 10 seconds to parse config files (he was using scala with no wrapper around SnakeYAML IIRC), but he had a fairly old computer
02:24	TEttinger	(we're talking under 1 MB config I think)
02:25	startling	TEttinger: do you have a recommendation?
02:26	TEttinger	unfortunately no, other than use EDN...
02:27	startling	TEttinger: that's not an option for us, unfortunately.
02:27	TEttinger	I helped the guy I'm talking about look for a replacement and couldn't find anything
02:27	TEttinger	YAML's grammar isn't exactly simple is it...
02:27	socksy	so in clojure, what's the idiomatic way for doing something like mean squared error? In an imperative language I would have a mutable variable and keep adding to it. This feels like bad practice in clojure
02:28	startling	TEttinger: heh
02:28	arrdem	socksy: map and reduce are gonna be your friends
02:28	gfredericks	,(def square #(* % %))
02:28	clojurebot	#'sandbox/square
02:29	gfredericks	,(->> (map - [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) (map square) (reduce +))
02:29	clojurebot	27
02:29	arrdem	gfredericks: you're missing a (/ (count))
02:29	gfredericks	yep
02:31	socksy	there's a confounding problem, in that this is being passed as a function to a map. So effectively I already have a function acting as map, called "read-and-do", which is a convenience function around with-open, which takes a function to do to each line
02:32	arrdem	socksy: there's your problem
02:32	socksy	indeed
02:32	arrdem	socksy: you want to read _all_ your input and build one datastructure
02:32	arrdem	socksy: then you take _all_ that data and transform it
02:32	arrdem	socksy: iterate until you've got the result you want
02:32	socksy	that's nice and all, but my data is generally bigger than my RAM
02:33	socksy	though I suppose I could load it up on to a large AWS instance
02:33	arrdem	then you need to leverage lazy evaluation to achieve streaming computation.
02:33	arrdem	which in many cases you'll just get magically if you write idiomatic code.
02:34	gfredericks	well
02:34	gfredericks	resource management isn't magical
02:34	socksy	i don't see how idiomatic code gets around the fact that "slurp" puts everything into a string?
02:34	gfredericks	right
02:34	gfredericks	you don't use slurp
02:35	gfredericks	you use line-seq
02:35	gfredericks	or something
02:35	gfredericks	you just have to be sure that you've consumed the whole thing before your with-open finishes
02:36	socksy	my read-and-do is a very basic wrapper around line-seq because i found myself typing that code out repeatedly :)
02:36	gfredericks	sure
02:37	gfredericks	is there something still unclear about this? I've lost track of the question
02:38	arrdem	gfredericks: resource management to not blow ram
02:38	gfredericks	(with-open [r ...] (->> (line-seq r) (map parse-somehow) (map ...) (reduce ...)))
02:38	socksy	well, more just an idiomatic way to make this into a map function
02:39	gfredericks	I wrote most of MSE as map/reduce above
02:40	socksy	indeed, thanks! But what does your code mean when you say "map parse"? line-seq is lazy, and map is doing it lazily, and then you map that into a different map?
02:40	socksy	wait, scrap the last bit
02:42	gfredericks	the mapping is lazy, the reduce forces the whole thing; but neither the whole original seq nor the intermediates are ever in memory at once
02:42	gfredericks	which is of course exactly what laziness is buying you
02:42	socksy	aha, so it's still a lazy construct by the time of the second map
02:43	socksy	and hopefully the reduce will cause it to execute before closing the file
02:43	socksy	right, I'll play around with that, thanks for the help!
02:50	startling	lancepantz, another PR; this one's a security issue.
02:53	bob2	<3 clojuring
02:58	nwolfe	Anybody working with Omchaya or is there a more appropriate place to ask this?
02:59	nwolfe	Ha I bet the clojurescript channel would be the better place.... :D
03:00	amalloy	startling: i don't think lancepantz really reads IRC much. he'll just notice the github notification probably
03:00	amalloy	gfredericks: you're on irc at clojure/west? or went home already? (that's what i did)
03:01	startling	amalloy, there are a number of other open PRs, I mentioned it here on the off chance he was around.
03:03	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm did not go home already
03:35	Frozenlock	I think the cljs advanced compilation is screwing up something here... https://www.refheap.com/65821
03:35	Frozenlock	Any advice?
03:39	amalloy	Frozenlock: if you don't have externs defined for the jquery plugin or whatever you're using, the closure compiler will rename all dot-interop methods to save characters. but since it's not actually rewriting the jquery code itself, the chosen name doesn't exist there
03:39	Frozenlock	Ah right.... that's the aget/aset thing, correct?
03:39	amalloy	so i think you either need externs, or to use something like (.apply (aget foo "modal") foo "show")
03:40	amalloy	i don't recall the details, since i don't use cljs, but i presume that's enough to make sense to you
03:40	Frozenlock	It does, thank you very much.
03:51	luxbock	I'd like to define a couple of helper functions in my profiles.clj and then inject them into clojure.core with vinyasa. does anyone know if there's a way for me to do this without having to define the functions in their own separate namespace/library of their own
03:53	luxbock	at first I tried defining them as normal in :injections, and then using vinyasa.inject/inject to inject those functions from the user namespace but that didn't work
04:10	beamso	i didn't realise there was a lein survey out
04:14	zachmassia	I'm working on converting some js code over to cljs, and wondering if there is a better / cleaner way to write this: https://gist.github.com/ZachMassia/0cc4675b1ce7bbe6746c
04:20	beamso	maybe inc and dec instead of + and -?
04:22	zachmassia	beamso: Good call, that will clean it up a bit. Apart from that it's fine though? Fairly new to clojure and functional programming
04:24	beamso	looks okay to me
04:24	beamso	from a weird perspective i hate the change from > to < and back again
04:25	beamso	but i also hate the .js file leaving off curly brackets for the if cases so :/
04:27	Frozenlock	What's the difference between using an atom and transcient/persistent?
04:27	zachmassia	Heh, didn't write the js :P, but now that you mention it I think I might move that last when up with the first one to keep it symmetrical
04:28	beamso	zachmassia: it's more that it jumps back and forth between less and more
04:28	beamso	not the ordering of the tests
04:29	beamso	Frozenlock: http://stackoverflow.com/a/15722398
04:29	Frozenlock	Thanks
04:34	zachmassia	Would this be a case where a transient is appropriate? I didn't really use it for the performance gains here
04:38	Frozenlock	,(let [[i j] [4 5] size 5] (for [x [-1 1] y [-1 1] :let [new-x (+ i x) new-y (+ j y)] :when (every? #(< % size) [new-x new-y])] [new-x new-y]))
04:38	clojurebot	([3 4])
04:38	Frozenlock	https://www.refheap.com/65834
04:39	Frozenlock	(or something like that...)
04:43	zachmassia	Hmm, initially that seems harder to read
04:44	Frozenlock	Really? o_O
04:46	zachmassia	lol, I'm still getting used to the lisp way of doing things
04:48	zachmassia	I'm attempting to port http://cjlarose.com/2014/01/09/react-board-game-tutorial.html over to om
04:49	Frozenlock	zachmassia: You might want to give reagent a try (especially if you are beginning with clojure) http://holmsand.github.io/reagent/
04:53	mpenet	zachmassia: atoms vs transients: one is a mutable ref the other is just an optimisation for performance (that you should never bash in place, which is what you were probably thinking of doing)
04:53	mpenet	http://clojure.org/transients
04:55	zachmassia	Frozenlock: I came across Reagent last week I believe. Any reason you suggest it over om?
04:56	zachmassia	mpenet: Ya, I think I'm probably focusing too much on directly porting the logic from the js code instead of the overall result
05:02	locks	zachmassia: https://github.com/levand/quiescent#rationale
05:09	zachmassia	locks: Interesting read, thanks for the link :) I'll make sure to bookmark that one
05:10	locks	yeah, it’s a nice overview of the three libraries
05:14	zachmassia	Frozenlock: Your snippet is giving me different results than the original fn: https://gist.github.com/ZachMassia/0cc4675b1ce7bbe6746c
05:20	vmarcinko	hello, noob question, i guess around data readers
05:20	vmarcinko	i try to read datomic scehma.edn from my file
05:20	vmarcinko	(read-string (slurp (io/resource "datomic/schema.edn"))) works OK
05:20	vmarcinko	but when Iuse EDN reader
05:20	vmarcinko	via
05:21	vmarcinko	(edn/read-string (slurp (io/resource "datomic/schema.edn")))
05:21	vmarcinko	i get error: No reader function for tag db/id
05:22	vmarcinko	i thought reader functions are same for both clojrue reader and edn reader, no? and datomic jar has these readers registered for both, no?
05:23	vmarcinko	reader function i meant for datomic jar
05:24	trap_exit	is there a way, in clojure, to forward declare variables _across_ namespaces ?
05:24	trap_exit	i.e. foo/cat and bar/dog mutualy call each other
05:24	trap_exit	is there a way to make this work?
05:24	trap_exit	(foo + bar are namespaces, cat +dog are functions)
05:25	noidi	if they're so closely intertwined, they probably belong to the same namespace
05:30	Pate_	what's the minimum code I need to "run" a fn in a .clj file?
05:30	Pate_	do I have to have a -main fn?
05:30	xsyn	nope
05:30	xsyn	you can execute from top down without lein boilerplating
05:33	Pate_	so (defn foo ...) (foo) in my-file.clj?
05:37	Pate_	what's the shortest way to run a clojure file from the command line without using lein?
05:40	Pate_	is there any help on installing cake on Windows?
05:40	clgv	Pate_: why not lein, the defacto standard build tool for clojure?
05:40	Pate_	does lein have a persistent jvm in the bg?
05:40	clgv	no. does cake?
05:41	clgv	Pate_: do I remember correctly that you are the one that wants to use clojure CLR in the powershell for devops?
05:42	dissipate	how do you get lein to load dependencies from outside a project folder?
05:42	mengu	would it make sense to have a clojurescript talk in a frontend conference?
05:42	Pate_	nope, not me. but that sounds like a cool idea!
05:43	Pate_	apparently cake tries to keep a jvm around: https://github.com/ninjudd/cake/wiki/Persistent-JVM
05:43	clgv	dissipate: you usually need to specify everything as dependencies in the project.clj so that leiningen automatically adds the jars to the classpath. but there might be an option to specify classpath additions
05:43	Pate_	mengu, absolutely, esp. if you show Om.
05:44	dissipate	clgv, then what is the point of the ~/.m2 directory?
05:44	Pate_	I also found Drip, which supposedly works with lein to keep a JVM around for faster startup: https://github.com/flatland/drip
05:44	clgv	dissipate: ah thats the maven cache. anything in there is found when you add its maven coordinates to the dependencies declaration in yourproject.clj
05:45	clgv	Pate_: yeah and technomancy had some project for that as well. but I did not try any of them, so I can't recommend any ;)
05:46	dissipate	Pate_, have you tried POM?
05:46	Pate_	not familiar with pom
05:46	Pate_	(clojure noob)
05:46	dissipate	Pate_, sorry, i meant Pomegranate. https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
05:47	clgv	pomegranate is just for adding dependencies on the fly to a running repl
05:47	dissipate	supposedly it allows you to load depedencies on the REPL so you don't have to reload the REPL
05:47	Pate_	that's cool
05:47	clgv	and is used in leiningen afaik
05:48	clgv	Pate_: but mind the warning in the readme "Please note that there are a number of scenarios in which add-dependencies will not work, or will not work as you'd expect."
05:48	Pate_	ok. so how do I get a persistent jvm running on windows for faster clj startup?
05:48	dissipate	clgv, so lein acts as a 'virtual environment' for a project as well?
05:49	clgv	dissipate: I am not entirely sure what you mean with 'virtual environment'
05:49	dissipate	i guess i'm a bit confused because in the python world 'pip' and 'virtualenv' are two different tools
05:50	AeroNotix	dissipate: dependencies are much better in the JVM world than they are in Python
05:50	Pate_	does Drip work on Windows? https://github.com/flatland/drip
05:50	AeroNotix	dissipate: maven allows you to have a myriad of the same library in your "site-packages"
05:50	AeroNotix	when lein runs, it creates the JVM's version of PYTHONPATH each time
05:50	Pate_	drip keeps a fresh jvm around, instead of using a persistent jvm around, which can cause problems over time.
05:50	clgv	well a project should depend on a concrete version of the library it uses and leiningen pulls them in for you
05:50	AeroNotix	thus giving your library a "virtualenv"
05:51	AeroNotix	dissipate: it works properly, unlike the hacks venv has to do to work.
05:51	dissipate	AeroNotix, i see. i'm starting to understand that lein is what are separate tools in other language ecosystems. :O
05:51	clgv	it is funny how you get the urge to run away screaming when someone explains you how dependencies and libraries work in GNU R
05:52	AeroNotix	dissipate: there's no downside to them being the same tool, in fact it works better
05:52	clgv	dissipate: well as AeroNotix pointed out the dependency approach is different
05:52	Pate_	(canonical Drip repo: https://github.com/ninjudd/drip)
05:52	dissipate	AeroNotix, yeah, it's pretty nifty. can't wait to publish my first project to clojars. :P
05:53	clgv	Pate_: drip seems very *nix-only from its readme
05:53	Pate_	:(
05:53	dissipate	i'm working on a RNG library that uses different sources of entropy and will have a better 'shuffle' function
05:54	Pate_	there's not a lot of C code, so could probably be ported to Windows.
05:54	Pate_	or made cross-platform.
05:55	dissipate	my god, someone is porting AIXI to clojure!
06:01	Pate_	how do I write to stdout when I'm in a REPL?
06:01	Pate_	(prn "test") ?
06:02	clgv	print/println
06:02	clgv	,(println "Hello!")
06:02	clojurebot	Hello!\n
06:02	clgv	,(prn "Hello!")
06:02	clojurebot	"Hello!"\n
06:02	clgv	prn/pr is for serialization to text
06:04	Pate_	how do I tell lein where to load Clojure from, after I downloaded and unzipped Clojure 1.6?
06:04	Pate_	or do I just add it as a dependency to any project.clj and run?
06:04	Morgawr	Pate_: Lein uses its own Clojure, you don't need to download/unzip clojure yourself
06:05	Morgawr	just list clojure as a dependency of a project and it will be downloaded automatically
06:05	Morgawr	aka :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.6.0"]] in theproject.clj
06:05	Morgawr	the project*
06:07	BalkyDwarf	completely off topic(s) but I just came across this blog post and found it very well done and nicely simple: http://www.clojured.com/2013/04/writing-clojureclojurescript-web.html
06:08	Pate_	BalkyDwarf, nice post.
06:14	BalkyDwarf	Pate_: yeah it makes me feel like pedestal is not really needed... pedestal is too rails-like and springfuse-like for me...
06:14	Pate_	Pedestal is too big. It expounds on its simplicity, but it is too complex.
06:15	Pate_	I suspect that Om combined with sente/http-kit will win the common Clojure real-time story.
06:17	BalkyDwarf	Pate_: oh ok, never heard of those... do they allow to make clojure + clojurescript webapps ?
06:18	Pate_	yes. Om is a ClojureScript integration on top of React. It blows away anything MV*: swannodette.github.io/2013/12/17/the-future-of-javascript-mvcs/
06:19	Pate_	the immutable Cljs memory model makes React's virtual DOM diffs near O(1), as far as I can tell.
06:20	Pate_	so you always re-render the whole "scene" or page, but the actual DOM changes are heavily batched and optimized. This lets you forget about state in the DOM.
06:20	BalkyDwarf	Pate_: thanks, sounds interesting. Does it provide some tools for client/server communication via ajax/websocket?
06:20	Pate_	no, that's where sente comes in
06:20	Morgawr	I personally prefer quiescent over Om, it's simpler and for my use cases (aka very simple web apps) it feels much easier to reason about, check it out if you don't know it :)
06:20	Pate_	sente lets you do realtime over core.async channels
06:20	Pate_	Morgawr, had not heard of Quiescent.
06:21	Morgawr	https://github.com/levand/quiescent
06:21	BalkyDwarf	thank you guys
06:21	Morgawr	it's similar to Om in some ways but very different in others
06:21	Pate_	BalkyDwarf, and with an additional 13 lines, swannodette added undo to the "todo" example: http://swannodette.github.io/todomvc/labs/architecture-examples/om-undo/index.html
06:23	Pate_	Morgawr, Quiescent looks really interesting. Also hadn't heard of reagent: http://holmsand.github.io/reagent/
06:34	deobalds	We're attempting to use clojure.java.jdbc without any libs on top of it. We're writing some tests which hit the db (just using clojure.test). We've written a fixture which wraps the test in a transaction so we roll back our changes to the test db, but clojure.test/use-fixtures doesn't seem to run if we run a test individually (M-c M-, in our case). Does anyone have any advice in this area?
06:37	BalkyDwarf	Morgawr: what do you use, if anything, alongside quiescent, for ajax / websockets? sense or core.async or something else?
06:39	Morgawr	BalkyDwarf: heh, I'm not much of a webdev, I just played around with quiescent (still a WIP to remake my site but exams have been slowing me down)
06:39	Morgawr	I know quiescent is pretty much made to work with core.async for channels
06:39	Morgawr	and that's what I'm going to use to propagate events
06:39	Morgawr	but that's it, really
06:40	BalkyDwarf	Morgawr: thanks!
06:55	BalkyDwarf	random ranting: from devops perspective, I wonder which is a lesser evil - something extremely young like http-kit, or a dinosaur like tomcat. I guess ring+jetty is a good middle ground, but that feels too organically grown for some reason...
07:33	noidi	deobalds, I've just run (my-fixture my-test) in the REPL
07:34	noidi	I'm sure you can write a bit of elisp to do that for you. personally I wouldn't bother, given that recalling the previous entry in the REPL takes only a couple of keystrokes.
07:37	xyproto	When building clojure from source, with the intent of packaging it for a linux distro, is it better to use ./antsetup.sh + ant or mvn package?
07:38	xyproto	readme.txt on github mentions both methods, but I don't know which method would be preferrable
07:38	xyproto	*preferable
07:38	beamso	for a silly comparison, homebrew on mac os x distributes leiningen instead of clojure
07:39	xyproto	And is the topic correct, is it not 1.6.0 that is the latest release version?
07:39	beamso	it is 1.6.0 but i haven't seen anyone with ops
07:40	xyproto	beamso: all programming languages wants to use their own language-specific package manager. This looks like the best solution from the point of view from the respective languages. From the perspective of packaging packages for a distro, they should be all be packaged in a somewhat similar way. (Until someone does something sensible, like making a package manager where the language-related package managers
07:40	xyproto	are included as plugins).
07:41	xyproto	beamso: that's why I just can't package leiningen and call it a day, for now :/
07:43	beamso	yes and no
07:44	xyproto	how does one run maven in order to only perform the tests, after having built clojure?
07:45	beamso	mvn clean package should run the tests
07:45	xyproto	beamso: yes, but I only wish to run the tests
07:45	beamso	mvn test
07:45	xyproto	beamso: first build, then test
07:45	xyproto	beamso: ok, thanks!
07:45	xyproto	beamso: (in two separate functions in the package description)
07:46	beamso	in mvn, package depends on test
07:46	beamso	compile doesn't depend on test
07:46	xyproto	beamso: great!
07:46	xyproto	beamso: testing it now
07:47	beamso	it looks like mvn calls out to ant anyway
07:48	xyproto	beamso: when run with "mvn test" it tries to compile clojure even though it has already been compiled with "mvn package -Dmaven.test.skip=true"
07:49	beamso	if the timestamps aren't being checked i can see that happening
07:49	xyproto	ok, but your answer didn't work
07:50	beamso	a) i've never compiled clojure before
07:50	beamso	b) i believe you're asking me why maven isn't working as you'd expect
07:51	xyproto	beamso: a) then why are you answering like you know the answer and b) it's not only maven, but the build system + configuration chosen by clojure
07:51	AeroNotix	Guys, chill
07:51	xyproto	AeroNotix: am chill :)
07:51	beamso	i'm simply using my knowledge of maven and looking at what i see in the github repo
07:52	xyproto	I blame myself for asking before researching. Thanks for the help.
07:54	beamso	TIL clojure is distributed compiled in debian
07:56	reQunix	Should someone update the topic since 1.6.0 has been released?
07:58	hyPiRion	reQunix: yeah
07:58	hyPiRion	technomancy: you know what you have to do
08:11	mskoud	Topic need change :-)
08:16	clgv	does someone fill out a tally sheet of how often the topic remark occurs? :P
08:18	Averell	only 6 times since yesterday.
08:19	reQunix	It'll stop once the topic is updated... Consider it added motivation. : )
08:33	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date. Long/MAX_VALUE)
08:33	clojurebot	#inst "292278994-08-17T07:12:55.807-00:00"
08:33	sm0ke	wish some one lives to face the end of timestamp problem
08:34	hyPiRion	That is not the timestamp problem
08:35	hyPiRion	sm0ke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY is the "timestamp" problem
08:39	beamso	i thought the time problem was in 2037.
08:39	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date. Integer/MAX_VALUE)
08:39	clojurebot	#inst "1970-01-25T20:31:23.647-00:00"
08:40	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date. 0)
08:40	clojurebot	#inst "1970-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"
08:40	beamso	something like that one
08:41	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date. -1000000000000)
08:41	clojurebot	#inst "1938-04-24T22:13:20.000-00:00"
08:41	beamso	oops. 2038.
08:41	beamso	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
08:41	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date. Long/MIN_VALUE)
08:41	clojurebot	#inst "292269055-12-02T16:47:04.192-00:00"
08:41	sm0ke	hmm look weird
08:43	ned-	does anyone know why this exception is being thrown ? http://pastie.org/8970117
08:50	beamso	for the earlier one, should it be (use 'clojure.contrib.duck-streams)
08:51	beamso	?
08:52	beamso	and for the second, (:require [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :refer spit])
08:52	beamso	?
08:52	clgv	yay apparently I build a dead lock when on my first attempt to build a thread-safe "require"
08:53	beamso	actually, (:require [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :refer [spit]])
08:55	hyPiRion	beamso: spit was integrated into Clojure core in 1.3.0 I believe
08:55	clgv	,(meta #'spit)
08:55	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name spit, :arglists ([f content & options]), :column 1, :added "1.2", ...}
08:55	hyPiRion	oh, even earlier
08:55	clgv	pretty close ;)
08:55	hyPiRion	I just remember that clojure.contrib was abandoned in 1.3
08:56	AimHere	I dread any language that doesn't just let me spit and slurp files as and when needed now
08:56	ned-	welp that explains it
08:56	beamso	oh. maybe that answer's ned-'s questions better.
08:56	ned-	wheres duck-streams now
08:56	hyPiRion	ned-: you can just use `spit` without requiring anything these days :)
08:56	ned-	hyPiRion: ooh thank you sir.
08:56	hyPiRion	I believe everything in duck-streams is in clojure.core
08:56	hyPiRion	or in clojure.java.io
08:57	hyPiRion	at least spit and slurp is in clojure core
08:58	clgv	I have an immediate mental image of "duck-streams", anyone else?
08:59	hyPiRion	clgv: http://i.imgur.com/FsxIVgT.jpg
08:59	clgv	hyPiRion: almost ,)
08:59	clgv	I'd imagine several ducks on the water^^
09:00	atyz	clgv: This? http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/410935/410935,1278271292,5/stock-photo-a-pair-of-ducks-in-a-gushing-stream-56501821.jpg
09:01	clgv	atyz: :D
09:54	lnostdal	what's the difference between fn and fn* ?
09:54	CookedGryphon	fn* is an internal implementation detail, don't use it unless you're tweaking the language
09:55	lnostdal	yeah, i'm curious about what it does internally compared to fn
09:55	hyPiRion	lnostdal: ##(macroexpand-1 '(fn [[a b]] (+ a b)))
09:55	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([p__17884] (clojure.core/let [[a b] p__17884] (+ a b))))
09:55	lnostdal	i'm not using it directly; code like #(if % :x :y) will generate it
09:55	CookedGryphon	well for a start, I think it's defined in java
09:55	hyPiRion	one of the details
09:58	clgv	do we have a specialized string compare in clojure that compares strings starting with a number by that number?
09:58	clgv	I'd guess someone wanted that behavior already ;)
09:59	clgv	otherwise I'd hack it together via regex and parseLong
10:00	hyPiRion	clgv: what would happen if the string doesn't start with a number?
10:01	hyPiRion	,clojure-version
10:01	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
10:02	clgv	hyPiRion: that's definition, either lesser or greater than then ones with a number
10:02	hyPiRion	alright
10:03	clgv	hyPiRion: somehow similar to when I use (sort-by :id data-coll) and there might be no :id in some items
10:07	hyPiRion	,(sort-by #(some-> (re-find #"^-?\d+" %) Long/parseLong) ["100 ten" "void" "103 foo" "-40 40"])
10:07	clojurebot	("void" "-40 40" "100 ten" "103 foo")
10:07	hyPiRion	clgv: ^?
10:09	clgv	hyPiRion: looks good :D - guess it is to specialized for clojure.core.* namespaces ;)
10:09	CookedGryphon	is there a looping construct like this: https://www.refheap.com/66001
10:10	TimMc	clgv: As opposed to version number comparison?
10:10	CookedGryphon	i find myself writing loop, when-let, recur so often in this basic format with core async
10:10	clgv	TimMc: pardon?
10:10	hyPiRion	clgv: yeah, seems probably a bit too specialised. It's not hard to make yourself though :)
10:10	clgv	CookedGryphon: write yourself a "while" macro
10:10	TimMc	Well, numerical sorting in a file listing shares some properties with version number sorting, but it's not the same.
10:11	clgv	,(doc while)
10:11	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Repeatedly executes body while test expression is true. Presumes some side-effect will cause test to become false/nil. Returns nil"
10:11	TimMc	and I was wondering which you wanted
10:11	hyPiRion	I just pad stuff with zeroes and use ISO 8601, then sort alphanumerically
10:12	clgv	ah ok. just plain numerical sorting. I have items with ids that usually start with numbers that have chronological information
10:31	CookedGryphon	Is there anything falsey in clojure to which I can attach metadata?
10:32	CookedGryphon	I have a function in my api which currently returns true or false depending on the success or failure of the requested operation
10:33	ambrosebs	CookedGryphon: no
10:33	CookedGryphon	it's nice and clean doing (when (operation ...) ...) but now I want to in some cases query the cause of the false answer, and exceptions completely complicate the flow of the functions using this api
10:34	clgv	CookedGryphon: you can invert the meaning as they do in C/C++ by returning error reasons (e.g. clojure maps) or nil on success
10:34	CookedGryphon	ugh, that's not nice or obvious to look at though...
10:35	CookedGryphon	perhaps if I had an appropriately named function... but still
10:35	clgv	well you only need a when-success macro
10:36	CookedGryphon	I wish you could attach meta to nils, it feels like you should be able to do some really nice error handling with current nil-punning behaviour, but if anything wants to examine the root cause of the nil being passed down they examine the metadata
10:36	clgv	btw. in the case of when you won't be able to look at the reasons of the error anyway ;)
10:36	CookedGryphon	then you get the stack benefits of exceptions and the ease of use of nil-punning
10:37	CookedGryphon	clgv: good point, but you could still use when for the trivial case, and then let out the value if you wanted to examine more closely
10:39	clgv	CookedGryphon: in SBCL you could do that with multiple return values. as long as you do not care you get only the first value and you have to do something special to get the other values...
10:41	CookedGryphon	clgv: what I'm talking about would go a little further than that, your caller doesn't need to care about your error directly, as long as it deals with nils nicely and passes on the same nil on a nil input it can't do anything with
10:41	CookedGryphon	but there's probably some major drawbacks I haven't considered
10:43	clgv	a pity there is no to-boolean protocol method ;)
10:43	clgv	you could have your metadata nil with it^^
10:51	ambrosebs	CookedGryphon: I don't think nil-punning is really worth worrying about.
10:51	ambrosebs	CookedGryphon: I just make a predicate function and move on
10:51	ambrosebs	if your solution works with nil-punning, great.
10:52	ambrosebs	but meh
11:09	Morgawr	https://hackworth.be/2014/03/26/clojure-web-security-is-worse-than-you-think/ anybody read this?
11:24	cbp	Morgawr: yea
11:27	arrdem	Morgawr: yea
11:27	jph-	Morgawr, i wrote it
11:27	jph-	:P
11:27	Morgawr	jph-: good one :P
11:27	Morgawr	I'm watching the video talk now
11:27	jph-	i was really worried about how it'd be received
11:27	Morgawr	just felt the need to spread it around :P
11:27	jph-	i didnt want it to come across as shitting on clojure
11:28	jph-	and it's really just a few of my notes from aarons talk
11:28	Morgawr	when I read the title I was a bit taken aback but both the article and the talk on which the article is based on raise valid and solid points
11:28	jph-	but i figured it needed calling out
11:29	hyPiRion	jph-: Valid criticism is not shitting, it's important
11:30	jph-	if we hit rails-like popularity, we dont want rails-like security issues with it
11:30	Morgawr	or php-like (in)security :P
11:30	jph-	yep
11:31	BalkyDwarf	I wonder if these security concerns apply to pedestal
11:32	jph-	web security issues are fairly well understood
11:32	jph-	but if the controls aren't built in to address them
11:32	jph-	then by default, they're vulnerable
11:32	Morgawr	yeah
11:32	Morgawr	that's the problem, sane defaults
11:33	jph-	i link to the owasp testing guide and top 10 in the post, ask your web framework developers how the protect against them
11:33	jph-	s/the/they/
11:46	sdegutis	What's a good way to create some functions (representing third party services) that you will override with lightweight implementations during testing, and which you have to explicitly set to the real functions in production?
11:47	Bronsa	sdegutis: just use with-redefs when testing
11:48	mikerod	is there anything "easy" available to allow Clojure to .clj source from somethiing like a JarInputStream. :)
11:48	mikerod	allow Clojure to compile .clj *
11:48	sdegutis	Bronsa: So use dynamic vars to hold all the functions related to this service, and alter-root-var them in production, and with-redefs them in testing?
11:49	sdegutis	Although if they're just going to be alter-root-var'd, I probably don't need them to be ^:dynamic.
11:49	Bronsa	why do you need to alter-var-root them?
11:50	sdegutis	I don't want them to be set to the real or fake services until I explicitly set them so during production.
11:50	sdegutis	This is to avoid accidentally forgetting to override them in tests, and ending up using the real services by accident.
11:50	Bronsa	oh ok
12:03	technomancy	jph-: did aaron's talk mention read-eval?
12:03	rkneufeld_	technomancy: He didn't mention it specifically, but he did touch briefly on injection attacks.
12:03	jph-	technomancy, i don't believe so
12:03	jph-	he kinda sped over injection imo
12:04	jph-	i almost included a section on what he said re injection
12:04	jph-	but in reality, it boiled down to "we have korma, but it isn't abstract enough, but we dont need an ORM"
12:04	jph-	so i was left scratching my head
12:04	jph-	and it didnt really get to nitty gritty re injection
12:05	technomancy	too bad; IMO the fact that you're just supposed to figure out that the reader isn't safe for user-provided data is trouble just waiting to happen
12:05	jph-	it did make me wonder how a user-input would be processed all the way into korma
12:05	jph-	ie if the old yaml issues with ruby applied to maps
12:06	jph-	compojure routes into functions into korma
12:07	technomancy	jph-: they do apply to the reader
12:07	technomancy	older versions of ring used to use the reader for cookie storage
12:07	jph-	i haven't yet done much testing in that space... i'm still getting my head around the higher-level compojure architecture
12:08	technomancy	if people get that wrong even in ring, you can just imagine what actual apps in the wild are like
12:08	jph-	the other thing is that unlike ruby, there isn't really a 'security team' for clojure
12:08	jph-	since ownership of libraries is spread far and wide
12:09	TimMc	jph-: The HTML templating thing is my personal rant-in-a-can.
12:09	jph-	TimMc, in what sense?
12:09	jph-	too many?
12:09	jph-	or the security side?
12:10	TimMc	The security side.
12:10	TimMc	Most of them are usnafe by default.
12:10	cbp	selmer is good against xss
12:10	xeqi	TimMc: hmm, I thought it was just hiccup
12:10	TimMc	Not just hiccup.
12:10	jph-	this is the kind of discussion i think the clojure community needs more of
12:11	jph-	otherwise clojure web apps will end up a ticking time bomb
12:11	jph-	ppl blindly assuming someone else has done the right stuff for us
12:11	cbp	But a lot of people like their templates to be vectors :-D
12:11	TimMc	cbp: You can have that and ahve it be secure as well.
12:12	TimMc	check out the patch clojars uses on Hiccup
12:12	xeqi	TimMc: thats actually not 100% secure, someone found a bug in it :(
12:13	xeqi	well, an unexpected interaction between nested params and it
12:14	xeqi	I'd love to find time to take hiccup out of clojars entirely
12:14	xeqi	and replace it with something safe
12:14	TimMc	xeqi: Oh, I'd like to see the bug and patch!
12:14	xeqi	along with many other things that take time ....
12:15	hyPiRion	xeqi: hey let's implement a Clojure version with fast startup time, port leiningen to it and all its plugins
12:15	xeqi	TimMc: my quick solution for clojars was to remove nested params, since we don't ever use it
12:15	hyPiRion	Takes a weekend tops
12:16	cbp	hyPiRion: arrdem was gonna implement "lean clojure" for GSoC
12:16	xeqi	hyPiRion: haha, are you making fun of satvvik's talk?
12:16	hyPiRion	xeqi: I'm not at west, so no =(
12:17	rasmusto	lean-clojure-nrepl-cider.el
12:17	sdegutis	I've been taking Clojure's vars and destructuring for granted, they're each pretty great.
12:17	felher	Hey folks. Would one sooner use '-' in longer namespace-names or '_'?
12:17	xeqi	hyPiRion: there are people that want to pursue this, rhickey, satvvik, and tbaldridge had a discussion around the gsoc plans for that
12:17	sdegutis	felher: - in the name, _ in the file
12:17	rasmusto	felher: - in the name-space, _ in name_space.clj
12:17	Bronsa	xeqi: hear hear
12:17	sdegutis	i won
12:17	felher	hehe :D
12:18	rasmusto	sdegutis: my answer had both examples
12:18	hyPiRion	xeqi: leaner as in on the jvm?
12:18	sdegutis	rasmusto: touche
12:18	felher	Thanks folks. :)
12:19	xeqi	hyPiRion: yep, think more static compiled for production stuff where you don't need to redef and such
12:19	hyPiRion	Ah, right
12:25	CookedGryphon	I have a proxy-super call in a proxy implementation, and it's eating 70% of my processing time in reflection
12:25	CookedGryphon	does anyone have a clue how to type hint it? It looks like (proxy-super onTouchEvent event)
12:26	CookedGryphon	so I have no idea where to hint the implicit this...
12:26	sdegutis	Leiningen handles -h placed after an alias, intercepting it from the function itself.
12:26	sdegutis	This was not expected behavior.
12:27	hyPiRion	sdegutis: yeah, it's a known issue
12:27	hyPiRion	I think it's scheduled for 2.4
12:27	sdegutis	Oh.
12:27	technomancy	it's fixed in master
12:27	technomancy	well
12:27	technomancy	it still does that by default, but you can opt out
12:27	sdegutis	Ah.
12:28	sdegutis	I liked that feature all the way up until last night when I used an alias to shorten a command line utility I'm writing.
12:34	hyPiRion	technomancy: while you're here, you better do something like `TOPIC=$(echo $TOPIC \| sed 's\|1.5.1\|1.6.0\|g')` before people complain about the outdated topic in this channel again
12:34	technomancy	oh yeah
12:35	rasmusto	,clojure-version
12:35	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
12:35	clgv	:D
12:35	seangrove	Has anyone else noticed that the topic is outdated?
12:35	rasmusto	##clojure-version
12:35	seangrove	Ahhhh, damn
12:35	clgv	:P
12:36	clgv	maybe it needs a rewrite as well. since 1.7/2.0 is not that near ;)
12:36	AmandaC	technomancy: I demand balanced news! I want the not-so-top analysis’s opposing opinion on the matter!
12:36	jcromartie	the penultimate analyst?
12:36	rasmusto	##(prn clojure-version 'hmmm)
12:36	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil} hmmm nil
12:37	technomancy	AmandaC: depends, are you qualified as a not-so-top analyst?
12:38	Averell	the number exploitation must end. I predict versions will run out in the next 30 years.
12:38	justin_smith	,clojure-version
12:38	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
12:38	rasmusto	justin_smith: why's lazybot on 1.4 still?
12:38	hyPiRion	clgv: 2.0 is not that near? I'm not sure, but I would've expected some news on that on the clojure-dev mailing list
12:39	hyPiRion	Apologies for not understanding jokes
12:39	justin_smith	rasmusto: I think they intentionally leave them on the most recent two versions, but they have been erherm lazy in updating one of htem
12:39	rasmusto	justin_smith: was waiting for that :)
12:40	AmandaC	technomancy: nah, I’m a number denier. I refuse to accept numbers even exist.
12:40	AeroNotix	AmandaC: yo
12:40	justin_smith	clgv: hyPiRion: I like Knuth's versioning for TeX, where each release gets it incrementally closer to PI
12:40	AeroNotix	AmandaC: doing Clojure these days?
12:41	AmandaC	AeroNotix: and several other languages, yes
12:41	AeroNotix	AmandaC: cool!
12:42	patchwork	AmandaC: numbers don't exist, but they are useful
12:43	rasmusto	math has no applications outside of SAT testing
12:47	justin_smith	rasmusto: nonsense! just the other day I proved there was a 1:1 and onto mapping from my monthly budget (idealized as a continuous income stream) and the sum prices of the inventory of the local musical equipment store
12:48	rasmusto	are you saying you bought everything in a music shop?
12:49	justin_smith	rasmusto: I justified doing so in theory, that was good enough :)
12:50	rasmusto	money is just a placeholder anyways, may as well replace it with guitar picks and midi keyboards
12:50	justin_smith	true enough
12:51	justin_smith	they are isomorphic at least
12:52	rasmusto	speaking of investing, am I the only one who isn't freaking out and cancelling my order RE that facebook/oculus thing?
12:53	jcromartie	rasmusto: it is really shocking
12:53	justin_smith	http://weareinstrument.com/labs/open-source/oculus-bridge my company may have played a small part in facebook finding the oculus rift useful :(
12:54	jcromartie	Facebook is just not where promising new technology goes to thrive.
12:54	patchwork	I am becoming increasingly weary of giant companies acquiring awesome things and destroying them
12:55	patchwork	I heard that right after I heard about the demise of OpenNI
12:55	patchwork	and primesense
12:55	justin_smith	patchwork: oh, that is sad
12:55	rasmusto	does it help that oculus is hardware+software and is so different from what facebook normally buys?
12:55	patchwork	glad I got my asus xtion when I did, you can't even find one anymore
12:56	jcromartie	rasmusto: it might help mitigate the awfulness
12:56	patchwork	Very curious to see what the result is… any way oculus can come out of this unscathed? I can't imagine it being used for anything awesome at this point
12:58	rasmusto	I went in for a ue4 subscription, I'm still damn excited about the new hardware
12:59	jcromartie	patchwork: well, if it's still a device that people can buy and develop for, with Carmack at the helm, it might be OK
12:59	jcromartie	but if Facebook steers the dev experience AT ALL, then I'd imagine it will pretty much be the beginning of the end of Oculus
12:59	patchwork	jcromartie: I will hold some measure of hope
13:03	S11001001	the Oculus team thanks you for going on this incredible journey with them
13:03	jcromartie	S11001001: stop it you are making me sad
13:03	mdrogalis	lol
13:12	rasmusto	any clojure/west must-see talk videos? I watched (and loved) the instaparse one
13:15	jph-	rasmusto, the security one
13:15	rasmusto	jph-: with-security? I'll queue it up
13:15	jph-	rasmusto, yep, that one
13:16	rasmusto	cool, thanks
13:24	pyr	hi clojure ! just dropping by because i'm really happy to release http://pithos.io today, an S3 compatible object store server written in clojure
13:27	cbp	(inc pyr)
13:27	lazybot	⇒ 2
13:28	Raynes	(inc pyr)
13:28	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:34	pyr	(btw if anyone deems it interesting, i'd love a few upvotes here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7474817
13:35	Jahkeup	very nice pyr!
13:35	Jahkeup	(inc pyr)
13:35	lazybot	⇒ 4
13:36	nickmbailey	cool stuff
13:37	nickmbailey	pyr: what version of cassandra?
13:37	pyr	2.0+
13:37	jcromartie	Neat
13:38	nickmbailey	pyr: which clojure client did you use?
13:38	pyr	alia, from mpenet
13:48	r1chard	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 <-- have you seen this "clojure.web/with-security"
13:48	r1chard	I feel like there's some BS in that talk.
13:48	r1chard	Not just feel, know.
14:00	jph-	good, call them out
14:00	jph-	i kinda think the speaker rushed through most of it, didnt really go into specifics for several areas
14:02	jph-	but i didn't spot anything obviously wrong, i just think some parts were glossed over
14:03	r1chard	Well first, you don't selectively escape or "strip" HTML tags in user input. That's a recipe for disaster.
14:03	r1chard	Either you escape HTML entities, or you don't.
14:03	r1chard	If you need selective support for, say, bold and italic, you need to go through a string DSL allowing only that.
14:04	r1chard	HTML is full of edge cases, if you try to parse it, attackers will abuse the edge cases.
14:04	jph-	yep
14:04	jph-	like... what is it, there's 90+ ways of representing <
14:04	jph-	encoding
14:04	r1chard	Second, he's complaining that pass hashing libraries don't offer HMAC.
14:05	r1chard	HMAC is for message origin codes, not for password hashes. Vastly different attacks. Vastly different approaches.
14:05	TimMc	++
14:05	r1chard	Tacking on HMAC for password hashes feels like he has no idea why HMAC is used.
14:06	jph-	yes, i would have liked him to elaborate more on that point
14:06	r1chard	Third: "there are too many template engines and db vendors you guys. Let's just stop. Let's just stop." Uhmm okay? You go make people just "stop" their projects, what kind of a solutions is this?
14:06	technomancy	sounds like ryah
14:06	jph-	my recollection is he was complaining about multiple template libraries within projects
14:07	r1chard	jph-, I don't know. It's very arbitrary to just put a limit on a project what it'll use. Any bigger project is done in separate components, and one has to pick the right tools for the job.
14:07	technomancy	http://shitryandahlsays.tumblr.com/post/33834861831/but-who-decides
14:07	jph-	r1chard, well, the speaker is entitled to his opinion, as are you :)
14:07	shep-home	I've got this one hash, and it has a lot of data in it. When I print it to the REPL, it's big and slows down emacs. What are some options to customize the printing of that hash alone?
14:08	r1chard	jph- :D
14:08	jph-	r1chard, btw, i wrote the writeup of that vid that hit hn
14:08	jph-	:P
14:08	r1chard	jph- :D
14:09	r1chard	Also the fact he's promoting ORM as better for DB security is making my heart bleed.
14:09	jph-	to me it sounded like a former ruby guy wanting better security in his new favourite language
14:09	jph-	well
14:09	jph-	the injection section was rushed as well
14:09	r1chard	ORM may speed up development, but that's hardly the only way to fix DB security.
14:09	jph-	"korma is ok, but it isnt enough but we dont need ORM but we need more abstraction"
14:09	jph-	hence why i left it out of my post
14:09	r1chard	:)
14:09	jph-	i didnt really have any takeaways
14:09	technomancy	aren't most of the rails DB issues stemming from the fact that people don't bother to learn SQL precisely because of ORMs?
14:10	jph-	well its 2am here, i shall bid you all adieu
14:10	technomancy	"learn how your database works" is better advice, not that people will follow it
14:10	jcromartie	technomancy++
14:10	jcromartie	oh sorry
14:10	jcromartie	(inc technomancy)
14:10	lazybot	⇒ 101
14:11	tuft	5 minutes into the talk and he hasn't said anything yet...
14:12	Bronsa	shep-home: print-lenght and print-level
14:16	shep-home	Bronsa: thanks! won't that truncate my output at some arbitrary position though?
14:16	Bronsa	yes it will
14:17	gfredericks	Bronsa: me and a few guys are at the clojurewest hackfest thinking about extending codeq to have usage analysis stuff (similar to the code I sent earlier)
14:17	gfredericks	and the major hitch compared to my earlier approach is that it might not be reasonable to actually eval the code
14:17	gfredericks	my guess is that this more or less precludes using tools.analyzer in a serious way -- can you confirm that's the case
14:18	Bronsa	gfredericks: there's no way to evaluate a whole file/namespace without evaluating each form as you go
14:18	Bronsa	how would you be able to macroexpand?
14:18	gfredericks	right but I'm thinking it's not possible to eval _at all_
14:19	gfredericks	at least if you want the analysis to go over the whole history of the project, because then you have lots of changing dependency sets
14:19	Bronsa	yeah I see where the problem lies
14:20	TimMc	shep-home: So, you can do things like (keys foo) and then select-keys
14:20	gfredericks	Bronsa: so should I give up trying to do something general and maybe have it start a separate jvm for each commit we want to analyze?
14:20	hiredman	gfredericks: it seems like that would be better built as a service a long side/on top of codeq
14:21	Bronsa	gfredericks: I honestly don't see why you would need tools.analyzer at all for this
14:21	gfredericks	hiredman: the first thought was to write a library that just interacts with the codeq db, adding usage info
14:21	gfredericks	hiredman: is that what you're thinking of?
14:21	hiredman	codeq indexes the codebase, then you can pick shas to feed in to this other service that checks out the sha and enrichs the data codeq has
14:21	hiredman	yeah
14:22	gfredericks	Bronsa: the main thing we need is, given pieces of code, figuring out what vars it uses
14:23	Bronsa	gfredericks: I see. whichever way you want to do it, I don't think you're going to be able to go anywhere without evaluating the forms for macroexpansion
14:23	gfredericks	Bronsa: okay, that's what I was imagining
14:23	Bronsa	(defmacro x [a] (if (do-something-with a) `some-var `some-other-var))
14:24	Bronsa	there's no way to know statically if you're going to be using some-var, some-other-var or both
14:24	gfredericks	sure
14:24	shep-home	TimMc: To use those, I would need to know that /this/ is the big hash, right? And I have a big vector too, not just a hash :-)
14:24	gfredericks	hiredman: okay, so one commit at a time sounds reasonable to you too?
14:25	shep-home	I'd love to be able to "override to toString" for a single hash when I create it
14:25	Bronsa	gfredericks: btw I don't know if you were logging yesterday but I added analyze+eval to t.a.j which doesn't require you to do any eval manually && doesn't require you to generate a new env everytime
14:26	gfredericks	Bronsa: yeah, I saw that; thanks
14:30	hiredman	gfredericks: I think it would have to be
14:32	Bronsa	gfredericks: also, if you decide to use t.a, this seems like a good place to use datomic's datalog to query the ASTs, example https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer/blob/master/src/test/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/query_test.clj#L17
14:33	wei__	is there such thing as reduce-while?
14:33	rasmusto	(doc reduced)
14:33	clojurebot	"([x]); Wraps x in a way such that a reduce will terminate with the value x"
14:34	wei__	e.g. taking from a collection until the sum is a certain amount
14:34	rasmusto	wei__: ^^
14:34	TimMc	shep-home: Yeah. So you should bug gfredericks to write his giant datastructure visualizer. :-P
14:34	wei__	rasmusto: nice. does that also work with core.reducers?
14:35	rasmusto	wei__: I believe so? Though it may be a 1.6 patch that allows that
14:36	amalloy	reduced was added in 1.5
14:36	amalloy	along with reducers
14:37	amalloy	wei__: although really you don't need reduced for use cases like reduce-while - you can use reductions and take-while
14:37	wei__	rasmusto: mind pointing me to an an example usage?
14:37	wei__	oh yeah, reductions is lazy too right
14:37	andrzejsliwa	Hi guys, anyone using smartparens on emacs for clojure development? any sane defaults (to be more like paredit)
14:37	andrzejsliwa	?
14:38	rasmusto	wei__: ah, nvm about the 1.6 thing. This is what I was remembering http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1160
14:38	rasmusto	reductions + take-while is probably a better answer
14:38	amalloy	huh. what's better about smartparens than paredit, andrzejsliwa?
14:39	andrzejsliwa	I have it as default in my Emacs Prelude bundle
14:39	gfredericks	TimMc: do you solicit buggings on this issue every month or so?
14:40	amalloy	andrzejsliwa: well, reading over the docs, i'd suggest at least turning on smartparens-strict-mode
14:41	andrzejsliwa	and then use it with paredit?
14:41	amalloy	well, i think you're supposed to use one or the other
14:41	andrzejsliwa	some people mixing them... but I want to avoid it
14:42	amalloy	i'd just install paredit, because it's well known and has worked for decades(?). but if you're using smartparens, strict-mode will get you a behavior that i've found useful in paredit
14:45	rasmusto	wei__: some examples
14:45	rasmusto	,(last (take-while #(<= % 10) (reductions + (range 30))))
14:45	clojurebot	10
14:45	rasmusto	,(reduce (fn [a b] (if (>= a 10) (reduced a) (+ a b))) (range))
14:45	clojurebot	10
14:46	andrzejsliwa	thx for advice amalloy
14:46	wei__	so that's how you use reduced, thank
14:48	TimMc	gfredericks: Something like that yeah. I want that tool! :-P
14:49	TimMc	$mail xeqi nested params appears to be a ring thing -- how was it causing a problem with hiccup?
14:49	lazybot	Message saved.
14:51	arohner	I'm having trouble googling for the alan dipert gherkin video mentioned in the mal video. Any suggestions?
14:51	gtrak	arohner: it's in the lightning talks
14:52	gtrak	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHTFo2Rf2w
14:52	arohner	ty
14:56	aaelony	anyone using Kovasb's session (https://github.com/kovasb/session/tree/master/src/cljs/session) ? It looks beautiful, but shift-enter isn't evaluating expressions for me...
14:57	aaelony	sorry, better link was : https://github.com/kovasb/session
15:06	gfredericks	TimMc: I've mitigated a small amount of the pain via my bg macro in my repl-utils
15:08	futile	Anyone here have experience embedding REPLy into a Clojure app?
15:12	TimMc	gfredericks: OWow does that help?
15:16	TimMc	*How
15:17	DaReaper_	Is there any working plugin for clojure development on NetBeans?
15:18	DaReaper_	or at least an editor?
15:20	hfaafb	there's counterclockwise for eclipse
15:20	hfaafb	nightcode
15:20	hfaafb	emacs
15:20	hfaafb	a few sublime text plugins
15:20	hfaafb	lighttable
15:22	yogthos	also cursive with intellij works pretty well
15:23	Anderkent	futile: kind of. What's your issue?
15:23	futile	I'm trying to figure out how to change the namespace when you call reply.main/launch-nrepl directly from within Clojure.
15:23	futile	So far I have this, but it fails: (launch-nrepl {:skip-default-init true :custom-init (in-ns 'billow.core)})
15:24	amalloy	futile: you probably want to quote that custom-init form
15:24	futile	amalloy: I'll try that, although it looks like REPLy is pretty macro-heavy code. See https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/blob/master/src/clj/reply/conversions.clj
15:25	futile	amalloy: Yes, that worked perfectly.
15:25	futile	Thank you both.
15:26	Anderkent	no prob, next time I recommend just asking your question immediately, amalloy could have probably helped you even before I got here :P
15:26	futile	Yes, yes, very good ideas all around.
15:27	futile	Next time I will ask my question directly. Also I will try suggestions before doubting them.
15:27	aaelony	quick update: shift-enter works for me in Chrome but not in Firefox...
15:29	DaReaper_	hfaafb: any for netbeans?>
15:35	futile	It appears that if you use REPLy with another namespace like that, you no longer have access to (doc). How would you get access back?
15:35	tpope	clojure.repl/doc
15:35	tpope	(use 'clojure.repl)
15:36	futile	Ah yes, thank you.
15:46	technomancy	amalloy: afaict smartparens' main advantage is that it can work with multi-char delimiter sets
15:46	technomancy	which is neat for html, but pointless for clojure
15:47	dakrone	technomancy: well, useful for strings and maps in clojure
15:47	amalloy	technomancy: might be useful if it supports #{...} and #(...), i guess
15:47	technomancy	dakrone: hm; how so?
15:48	dakrone	technomancy: ah nevermind, I forgot clojure-mode adds paredit support for "" and {}
15:48	amalloy	dakrone: that's all in paredit, i'm pretty sure, not clojure mode
15:48	dakrone	in-sexp highlighting is a nice feature smartparens has that paredit doesn't
15:48	technomancy	strings work for any lisp already
15:48	amalloy	in-sexp highlighting?
15:50	dakrone	amalloy: background highlighting the body of an expression the first time it's typed, it's difficult to explain :)
15:50	amalloy	mmmm. so that's instead of bouncing the cursor/point?
15:50	Blkt	what's the best way to handle configuration (files) in a Clojure webapp?
15:51	technomancy	so like show-paren-mode except for the body instead of just the delimiters?
15:51	technomancy	seems weird to tie that to smartparens instead of creating something orthogonal
15:51	hyPiRion	I'm fine with highlight-parentheses really.
15:51	dakrone	amalloy: technomancy: yes, except it's more "while-you-type-the-expression" than after the fact
15:51	dakrone	it is useful when typing JSON
15:52	amalloy	technomancy: show-paren-mode will show the body if you ask
15:52	technomancy	oh, cool
15:52	futile	Ah there is a clojure.test emacs plugin isn't there..
15:52	technomancy	ooh, mixed. I like the sound of that
15:52	technomancy	futile: yeah but it's kinda lame
15:59	futile	Would it be better to just get the clojure.test autorunner?
16:00	technomancy	it should be replaced with nrepl-discover
16:00	futile	Ah.
16:01	gtrak	technomancy: I thought it was funny/odd that bbatsov wanted to wait for nrepl-discover to mature..
16:01	gtrak	since there's few emacs-related nrepl projects besides cider.
16:01	technomancy	gtrak: yeah, I don't really understand his project management style
16:01	gtrak	like.. not gonna mature unless we use it, dude.
16:05	futile	All programming seems to be just finding new ways to call functions with arguments...
16:05	technomancy	futile: except forth
16:06	gtrak	I just tried to explain my understanding of monads to a haskeller like that
16:06	gtrak	fancy parameter-passing
16:06	futile	technomancy: I call shenanigans.
16:06	technomancy	gtrak: http://p.hagelb.org/mrfp.gif
16:06	technomancy	futile: it's true
16:11	eraserhd	I'm having a weird bug that I can reproduce, but having trouble isolating small code that does it.
16:11	tgoossens	When I have a class with methods. If I change the representation of the object, my compiler tells me what methods don't work anymore. In clojure if i create function to work with a certain data structure and I change it, I don't automaticlly find what functions that must be changed.
16:11	eraserhd	It seems to be about making a lazy list a key in a meta map in a macro, then accessing it at run time.
16:11	eraserhd	Does this ring any bells?
16:13	eraserhd	Oh, value. not key.
16:19	devn	whoa. clojure/west talks are up already: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVXjExRiFy0
16:20	zerokarmaleft	yea, somebody's cracking the whip in SF
16:20	technomancy	devn: there was an incredible amount of whining around this last year
16:20	futile	What are the great new ways to enhance our clojure.test experiences?
16:20	klang	.. there goes sleep tonight ..
16:21	devn	technomancy: oh i remember! :)
16:27	gtrak	last year it was all Alex, now it's cognitect and friends
16:37	jcromartie	yeesh now I feel like my app is insecure?
16:37	jcromartie	I thought I had a pretty good handle on it :\|
16:41	amalloy	eraserhd: metadata probably gets evaluated
16:50	jcromartie	how often do you end up writing code that checks argument or return types?
16:51	jcromartie	like, :pre and :post maps, or asserts, or code that throws IllegalArgumentException?
16:51	gtrak	jcromartie: schema's been really nice for this
16:54	tuft	tgoossens: true, but the flip side is that they can continue doing what they did before, as they aren't coupled to the type you changed.
16:55	amalloy	jcromartie: super rarely. i occasionally throw IAE; never use pre/post; and very rarely use assert
16:55	tuft	tgoossens: .. and your tests should be able to provide the same checklist.
16:55	hiredman	assertions and pre/post are great
16:56	hiredman	I have only ever regretted not having them
16:56	hiredman	(not to say I use them a lot, I just regret not having them in places a lot)
16:56	akurilin	So if I want to share a bunch of business logic pure functions across multiple projects, what should determine if the :source-paths approach is good enough or if I should go the separate .jar route?
16:57	tuft	anyone using schema in their project?
16:57	futile	I have been using preconditions for this utility I'm writing.
16:57	hiredman	not having a custom message :pre/:post is a pain though
16:57	AeroNotix	tuft: schema?
16:58	rasmusto	AeroNotix: prismatic's thing for runtime type checking
16:58	tuft	AeroNotix: yes that ^^ =)
16:59	tuft	seems useful for when things get really nested
16:59	AeroNotix	oh ok
16:59	tuft	.. or when accepting input to the system from outside.
17:00	futile	What's a good way of pulling in data from a non-compile-time-loaded file?
17:00	hiredman	the cloud is a vast roiling sea where devops are prone to mad acts of maintaince and chatops, best not to assume anything
17:00	jcromartie	futile: EDN/Clojure data?
17:00	AeroNotix	hiredman: chatops?
17:00	rasmusto	futile: slurp it from resources?
17:00	futile	My users pass "my.config.namespace" which contains defs which may execute some code.
17:00	futile	And I need to access their defs.. and there's a lot of ways.
17:01	jcromartie	futile: I'd say the right way to get at the vars in a namespace is ns-publics
17:01	futile	I could have them hook into a function of mine which redefs some defs I can access. Or I can have them (in-ns) into my namespace and do their defs, and I just access them at runtime.
17:01	hiredman	(for example changing the character encoding on a database in a way that some how twiddles the bits in your gzipped blobs)
17:01	futile	jcromartie: ah so the second one?
17:01	jcromartie	futile: this sounds… weird
17:01	jcromartie	:-/
17:01	futile	Alternatively I could just make this file return a map that I def right into a def in my own namespace, and just use known keys.
17:02	futile	I'm going to great lengths to avoid the trouble of writing a leiningen plugin.
17:03	futile	I've used the map solution before to good effect.. very little runtime magic needed except (load the-file).
17:04	futile	(def my-map (load their-file)) ... (do-something-with (:some-key my-map))
17:04	futile	That's simplest, I'll just do that.
17:08	jcromartie	futile: why can't they just pass you data?
17:09	jcromartie	instead of giving you something you'll turn around and load?
17:09	jcromartie	I don't know what you're building
17:10	shep-home	Does Mark Engelberg hang around here? Or anyone associated with instaparse?
17:11	futile	jcromartie: I'm building a lib that you install and then do `lein run -m mylib.main your-config-namespace`
17:11	futile	jcromartie: I control the entry-point of the lib, since it's a command-line util.
17:11	futile	jcromartie: Of course, that whole invocation will be hidden away in a lein-alias for good measure.
17:13	akurilin	shep-home: I don't remember seeing him on here but I had a really easy time getting hold of him on Instaparse's google groups
17:14	akurilin	guy's extremely reponsive and helpful
17:14	shep-home	akurilin: thank you. I wanted to give that team a big thank you. They made this (https://github.com/shepmaster/clojure-ruby) fun to write
17:15	futile	Wow.
17:18	rasmusto	shep-home: did you watch the clojure/west talk on instaparse?
17:19	shep-home	rasmusto: nope - is it worth watching?
17:20	rasmusto	Yep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2AUW6psVcE
17:20	rasmusto	you'll learn a bit more about the "team" :D
17:21	shep-home	rasmusto: excellent, thank you. I think I can find 40 minutes to watch this during funployment :-)
17:21	rasmusto	I found his mini-dive into the implementation to be really cool
17:21	rasmusto	it's all async + pseudo pubsub
17:22	Anderkent	it was nice, but I wish there was more info about why the algorithm is correct, it's not obvious (at least to me)
17:23	rasmusto	Anderkent: yeah, hence "mini-dive"
17:23	rasmusto	I don't mind the aabababa examples though, I'd get confused otherwise
17:23	Anderkent	yeah that was nice
17:28	verma	anyone here uses lien-npm? can't get it to generate a package.json
17:30	verma	os is it not persistent? in the sense that it would be removed when the task is done executing?
17:30	verma	oh, it does remove it https://github.com/bodil/lein-npm/blob/master/src/leiningen/npm.clj#L74
17:35	verma	lein run seems to run my script, but its not generating package.json when running the file, I need it for node-webkit
17:46	TravisD	Is there a way to query how much memory is available in the JVM?
17:48	justin_smith	(.freeMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
17:48	znurgl	How can you convince your boss about using Clojure in one sentence? (theoretical question)
17:49	nightfly	It's new and cool
17:49	justin_smith	TravisD: depending what you mean by "how much memory is available" other methods may have better answers
17:49	gtrak	znurgl: 'it's a concurrency library'
17:50	technomancy	znurgl: "if I have to write any more java I'll quit."
17:50	justin_smith	TravisD: but you probably want the info returned by some method of (Runtime/getRuntime) http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Runtime.html
17:50	TravisD	justin_smith: Ah, I really just wanted to know how much space was reserved for the heap or something. I was running out of space and I was curious how much there is
17:50	justin_smith	maxMemory is likely what you want
17:51	TravisD	ah, yes, just saw it in the docs
17:51	Averell	"this will be more cost-effective than our current cobol code"
17:51	justin_smith	(.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
17:51	TravisD	,(.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
17:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: Reference To Runtime is not allowed, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:51	justin_smith	also, you may want to compare that to the amount of mem currently allocated
17:51	gtrak	znurgl: 'we can't do feature x in a timely manner without it'
17:52	sdegutis	gtrak: boom got em
17:52	TravisD	justin_smith: cool, thank s:)
17:55	sdegutis	did I do that right?
17:56	justin_smith	sdegutis: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Got%20Em&defid=1716329
17:56	znurgl	I have another strange question. I've never used (def variable-name value) in Clojure. And I checked some project on GitHub and I can't find def, so is it a common thing in Clojure not using variables just dealing with data flow?
17:57	gtrak	def's usually for constants
17:57	gtrak	or things that aren't functions, generally it's bad to hold state in a var
17:57	justin_smith	znurgl: well, technically defn is just a wrapper on def
17:57	justin_smith	def + fn = defn
17:57	znurgl	justin_smith: sure, I know
17:58	gtrak	znurgl: you shouldn't call def within a function unless you know what you're doing
17:58	znurgl	but I did't use it for defining a variable
17:58	cbp	def for global constants and also closures as i think a def inside a let is a little ugly :-P
17:58	cbp	a defn inside a let}
17:58	cbp	*
17:59	bja	there's a letfn for that
17:59	znurgl	so the good practice is stay away from def a variable as much as I can, isn't it?
18:00	gtrak	znurgl: def is to create a var, vars have their own semantics.
18:00	cbp	znurgl: no, you just wont use them much naturally
18:00	gtrak	http://clojure.org/vars
18:00	sdegutis	I am using vars like crazy today.
18:00	cbp	bja: but i want a closure in a var
18:00	sdegutis	So many vars.
18:00	cbp	also for holding stuff like atoms/refs/etc..
18:01	gtrak	not just a 'variable', to be precise it's a Var.
18:01	sdegutis	I even def a def within a def https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/src/billow/config.clj#L5-L7
18:01	technomancy	znurgl: clojure doesn't have variables
18:01	gtrak	clojure doesn't have local variables either, those are usually called bindings
18:01	sdegutis	To be fair, there's like so little distinction.
18:02	cbp	sdegutis: i usually do that kind of thing with alter-var-root
18:02	sdegutis	I've found using Clojure to be nearly identical to using Ruby, except for the super-powers Clojure gives you.
18:02	gtrak	it's important to not use a term that means something in other languages :-)
18:02	znurgl	thanks guys, I should check it again :-)
18:02	sdegutis	cbp: I wonder, what's the difference between the two approaches?
18:02	sdegutis	(def ...) vs (alter-var-root ...)
18:03	technomancy	sdegutis: alter-var-root requires it to already exist
18:03	gtrak	cbp: well, for one, the var gets created at compile-time, alter-var-root won't do that.
18:03	gtrak	when your defn is eval'd the var gets created.
18:03	cbp	sdegutis: the namespace
18:03	cbp	All sorts of scary business
18:03	gtrak	It would probably cause concurrency problems to use def.
18:04	gtrak	potentially.
18:04	sdegutis	I am doing so programming right now.
18:04	technomancy	so programming. much def. very excite.
18:04	bja	sdegutis, is that a doge thing?
18:05	bja	technomancy beat me to it
18:05	sdegutis	Hmm, I didn't realize the connection but yeah, basically the style I was going for.
18:05	sdegutis	Except a little less formal to the meme.
18:05	sdegutis	So I have this really weird library/utility design..
18:05	gtrak	,(do (defn a [] (def b)) b)
18:05	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/b>
18:05	gtrak	see the problem?
18:06	sdegutis	You put the ugly stuff into an alias, then run `lein billow`, and it shoves you into a REPL, and gives you access to a few commands like (list-servers), (create-server ...) etc
18:06	gtrak	,b
18:06	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/b>
18:06	gtrak	,c
18:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:06	pyrtsa	gtrak: It will probably cause concurrency problems to use alter-var-root as well.
18:06	sdegutis	It's not conventional, but it gives you a little more flexibility and avoids lein-reloads when you wanna do multiple things in a row.
18:06	pyrtsa	Just a different kind of such.
18:07	gtrak	pyrtsa: I would imagine it wouldn't kill current bindings on the var, and the def would.
18:07	cbp	you also cant require that function
18:07	gtrak	maybe..
18:07	cbp	or you can do it with weird consequences..
18:07	gtrak	just don't do it :-)
18:08	gtrak	altervarRoot calls a method on the var, def might wholly replace it.
18:08	gtrak	not sure exactly when.
18:09	gtrak	alter-var-root notifies watches..
18:09	cbp	,(do (ns a) (defn f [] (def x 1)) (ns b) (require 'a) a/x)
18:09	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'a/x>
18:09	gtrak	and takes a validator
18:09	gtrak	so that's one difference
18:09	cbp	er i got a different result..
18:10	cbp	oh well
18:10	pyrtsa	gtrak: If you alter-var-root a var while another thread is using it, its value will just suddenly be different, during the computation.
18:10	amalloy	sdegutis: https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/src/billow/config.clj#L5-L7 shouldn't work at all
18:10	gtrak	pyrtsa: I don't believe it
18:10	gtrak	that's only the case if that thread is using the root binding
18:11	technomancy	~tias
18:11	clojurebot	Try it and see! You'll get results faster than asking someone in #clojure to evaluate it for you, and you'll get that warm, fuzzy feeling of self-reliance.
18:11	amalloy	alter-var-root doesn't take a value, it takes a function and applies it to the old value
18:11	gtrak	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Var.java#L188
18:11	pyrtsa	gtrak: Easy to test: create two threads, one calling alter-var-root after a timeout, the other using that var repeatedly, sleeping in between.
18:11	gtrak	pyrtsa: bindings
18:11	technomancy	amalloy: the question is whether the root is replaced with a CAS or just a set
18:11	gtrak	know what I mean?
18:11	technomancy	I don't think it's CAS
18:12	gtrak	technomancy: i'm looking at it, it's a volatile
18:12	amalloy	technomancy: that's the conversation y'all are having; i'm making a different point which is that sdegutis's use of alter-var-root is bogus regardless of your discussion
18:12	technomancy	oh, gotcha
18:12	sdegutis	amalloy: how so?
18:12	amalloy	and it's not CAS
18:13	amalloy	(03:08:22 PM) amalloy: alter-var-root doesn't take a value, it takes a function and applies it to the old value
18:13	sdegutis	Oops.
18:13	pyrtsa	gtrak: Sorry, I think I'm missing the point. Can you educate me? (In private if considered noise here.)
18:13	cbp	Oh he updated it
18:13	sdegutis	Fixed.
18:13	cbp	the speed rivals dnolen's
18:14	sdegutis	https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/src/billow/config.clj#L5-L7
18:14	gtrak	ah, sure. your example is correct, but that's not the point. vars support a thread-local stack of bindings. if there's something bound, then the change to root wouldn't matter on that thread.
18:14	gtrak	pyrtsa: ^
18:14	cbp	I got confused for a second (he's not using alter-var-root at all!)
18:14	pyrtsa	gtrak: Okay, cool. Now we agree.
18:15	sdegutis	Thanks amalloy :)
18:15	sdegutis	amalloy: here's a pie to show my gratitute: \_/
18:15	amalloy	hah
18:15	sdegutis	No wait sorry that's an upside-down lampshade.
18:16	sdegutis	Here's the pie: ___
18:17	stcredzero	sdegutis: \_/ looks like a standard grey alien glaring at you. Or the victory gesture guy beheaded \o/
18:18	sdegutis	quite
18:19	stcredzero	Actually, they are one and the same. (Now go off and read all of Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol)
18:21	sdegutis	~guards
18:21	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:21	stcredzero	Who me?
18:23	sdegutis	Hey clojurebot said it not me
18:24	sdegutis	I am not good at designing APIs and I get really tired out easily from it which wears down my concentration and I end up in here saying ~guards...
18:24	stcredzero	Why would you sic the guards on me?
18:24	shalicke	~gourds
18:24	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
18:24	stcredzero	~gads
18:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:24	sdegutis	shalicke: one of the few times I can literally say LOL
18:24	stcredzero	~girds
18:24	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:24	stcredzero	~gauds
18:24	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:25	technomancy	~praetorian guards
18:25	clojurebot	CAESE HIM!!!
18:25	amalloy	niiiice
18:25	shalicke	(inc technomancy)
18:25	lazybot	⇒ 102
18:25	sdegutis	(dec technomancy)
18:25	lazybot	⇒ 101
18:25	technomancy	can't take the credit; stole it from #emacs
18:25	sdegutis	Just tryin to balance things out
18:25	stcredzero	So this is the Lispy version of Hogwarts?
18:25	sdegutis	(inc sdegutis)
18:25	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
18:25	sdegutis	:(
18:25	AeroNotix	(inc sdegutis)
18:25	lazybot	⇒ 6
18:25	AeroNotix	spread the love
18:25	sdegutis	(inc shalicke)
18:25	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:26	sdegutis	(inc stcredzero)
18:26	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:26	technomancy	(dec slytherin)
18:26	lazybot	⇒ -1
18:26	AeroNotix	,(prn AeroNotix)
18:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: AeroNotix in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:26	sdegutis	ok $karma has got to go
18:26	technomancy	stcredzero: basically, yeah
18:26	stcredzero	stcredzero gets love? What did y'all do with the real clojure community?
18:26	sdegutis	Nobody wants #clojure to turn into a popularity contest, and also I have a way low $karma.
18:26	rasmusto	~clojure
18:26	clojurebot	clojure is the king of the Sinatra-esque all-in-one-file webapp.
18:27	stcredzero	Lies!
18:27	stcredzero	~Lies!
18:27	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:27	stcredzero	Clojurebot has the makings of a politician!
18:28	wink	I disagree with clojurebot's penultimate statement though
18:28	stcredzero	(pr-src stcredzero)
18:28	wink	because, just today, I wrote a sinatra app
18:28	wink	and because of a certain gem it would have taken me ages (probably) in clojure
18:29	stcredzero	wink: a good and big community counts for a lot
18:29	wink	plus I don't even want to think about inline templates in my clojure code :P
18:29	sdegutis	wink: what gem, you?
18:30	wink	sdegutis: github-flavored markdown :P
18:30	sdegutis	wink: re: templates, looked at hiccup?
18:30	wink	sdegutis: yeah, used it for a while, but that's not really like sinatra inline templates. not worse, but definitely different
18:31	sdegutis	Right, Clojure definitely needs to be used differently than Sinatra.
18:31	sdegutis	Hmm yeah, we're missing a GFM lib..
18:31	sdegutis	I've been using github.com/yogthos/markdown-clj
18:31	wink	I would have never thought I'd "defend" ruby against clojure. ever
18:31	wink	but in this case, as github is a ruby shop, anything else makes less sense
18:32	sdegutis	wink: Great, because in this channel, we admit and confess that Clojure is the best language.
18:32	stcredzero	wink: wish to accept the truth
18:32	wink	as I am exactly rendering github wiki links
18:32	wink	s,links,pages,
18:32	sdegutis	wink: In #haskell though we know for a fact that Haskell is better than Clojure.
18:32	sdegutis	wink: Granted, in #ruby-lang we know that Ruby is actually the best.
18:32	stcredzero	sdegutis: In this channel, I hope that we also realize: best language != best environment
18:32	brehaut	you are all wrong. idris is the future
18:32	technomancy	gfm from jruby. boom.
18:32	wink	sdegutis: see, in the php channels I am no one even claims it's the best language. we just get shit done :P
18:32	sdegutis	stcredzero: chruby + bundler ftw
18:33	technomancy	wink: same with elisp =)
18:33	brehaut	wink: emphasis on the shit ;)
18:33	stcredzero	chruby? I would be disturbed by programmers telling me they have a chruby for me
18:33	sdegutis	wink: that's because PHP is the best language, no need to tout it.
18:33	sdegutis	technomancy: yeah, elisp is so simple..
18:34	technomancy	...yet powerful
18:34	sdegutis	(dinc technomancy)
18:34	sdegutis	aww not a real thing
18:34	stcredzero	"double income no closures"
18:34	brehaut	double income no cat?
18:34	wink	I'm allergic to income
18:34	wink	no, wait
18:34	stcredzero	~scheme
18:34	wink	I'm allergic to cats
18:34	clojurebot	scheme is Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like snow. Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud.
18:35	stcredzero	~Haskell
18:35	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:35	stcredzero	~Lua
18:35	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:35	wink	~curry
18:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:35	stcredzero	~coc
18:35	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:35	wink	clojurebot: Lua is awesome
18:35	clojurebot	Ok.
18:35	stcredzero	~coq
18:35	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:36	sdegutis	stcredzero: boom got em
18:36	sdegutis	~Lua
18:36	clojurebot	Lua is awesome
18:36	stcredzero	sdegutis: boom?
18:36	brehaut	gfredericks has some work to do apparently
18:36	wink	I was literally bursing out laughing when someone recently mentioned a problem with coq and the solution was "you forgot Qed. in the end"
18:36	sdegutis	stcredzero: yes.
18:36	stcredzero	sdegutis: yes?
18:36	sdegutis	right
18:37	stcredzero	~greek
18:37	clojurebot	greek is it to me
18:37	stcredzero	~me
18:37	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:37	wink	stop breaking it
18:37	wink	its feeble mind has suffered enough
18:37	stcredzero	~Smalltalk
18:37	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:38	sdegutis	I cannot take it.
18:38	hiredman	I really should put a throttle in the bot so it automatically will ignore people when they excessively do this kind of thing
18:38	hons	~scala
18:38	clojurebot	Scala often gets in the way when trying to write neat code -- seen in #scala
18:38	stcredzero	hiredman: sorry, I just got curious
18:39	hons	~java
18:39	clojurebot	☕
18:39	hons	;)
18:39	wink	that entry should've been more verbose
18:40	stcredzero	True story: Smalltalker is told by boss he should change to Java. So he changes all the app icons to coffee cups and gets to code in Smalltalk for an additional 6 months. Later, he came to work for the Smalltalk vendor. (Where I was working)
18:41	technomancy	stcredzero: I am in awe.
18:41	stcredzero	Vasilly is awesome, actually. I should steal some of his ideas and rewrite them as pure functional versions
18:50	stcredzero	~monads
18:50	clojurebot	monads are \|monads\|
18:50	metellus	~\|monads\|
18:50	clojurebot	\|monads\| is endofunctors
18:50	rasmusto	~burrito
18:50	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:51	stcredzero	~lolcode
18:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:54	brehaut	stcredzero: i am disappointed that that story does not fit in 140 characters
18:54	brehaut	well, 137
18:54	stcredzero	brehaut: And I am not bothered at all.
18:57	stcredzero	brehaut: TrueStory: Boss tells Smalltalker: Switch 2 Java. Smalltalker changes icons to coffeecups and codes in Smalltalk for 6 more months.
18:58	brehaut	stcredzero: haha thanks :)
18:59	gfredericks	a burrito is just a burroita in the menu of endofajitas
18:59	justin_smith	"This man's boss wanted him to switch from Smalltalk to Java. What he did next will restore your faith in humanity"
18:59	rasmusto	gfredericks: haha
18:59	brehaut	gfredericks: ftw
18:59	justin_smith	(inc gfredericks)
18:59	lazybot	⇒ 43
18:59	gfredericks	that's the third time I've used that joke in 24 hours
18:59	rasmusto	(inc gfredericks)
18:59	lazybot	⇒ 44
18:59	zspencer	(inc justin_smith)
18:59	lazybot	⇒ 30
19:00	gfredericks	TimMc: it helps for easily putting giant results in vars without accidentally printing them
19:01	Bbarrett	I am trying to move files from one directory into another, should I utilize Java's .move method in this case, or is there a better way to do with a built in Clojure library
19:01	SegFaultAX	(inc gfredericks)
19:01	lazybot	⇒ 45
19:01	wink	justin_smith: you got a day job at gawker?
19:02	sdegutis	I am about to use lazy-infinite-sequences to solve a problem.
19:03	brehaut	thats lucky, because strict-infinite-sequences are problematic in practise
19:03	stcredzero	Incidentally: The Smalltalker's name is Vasilly Bykov, IIRC
19:03	amalloy	Bbarrett: if a java method does what you want, use it
19:03	TEttinger	Bbarrett: I'd personally avoid additional dependencies and just use the .move , it's always available
19:03	amalloy	brehaut: it's fine as long as you have infinite time
19:03	wink	sdegutis: "I'll procrastinate the problem away" is what you meant?
19:03	Bbarrett	thanks
19:03	amalloy	and space
19:03	brehaut	amalloy: problematic, not impossible
19:03	Bbarrett	I kind of thought that might be the best path to take
19:03	wink	amalloy: if space is the final frontier, how can it be infinite?
19:03	cbp	Bbarrett: it's likely that the clojure library calls that method anyway
19:03	justin_smith	wink: we use clojure to make optimized lazy headlines (no, I don't work at gawker, but those link bait headlines are too easy to mock)
19:03	hiredman	TEttinger: it is in fact only always available since 1.7
19:03	wink	justin_smith: :P
19:04	TEttinger	hiredman: agh
19:04	Bbarrett	thanks for the input!
19:04	Bbarrett	hope everyone is having a kiler day or evening
19:04	stcredzero	As far as we know, all of us reappear an infinite number of times in the cold, empty void past the heat-death of the universe as Boltzmann brains
19:05	SegFaultAX	This channel just got a lot more meta.
19:05	TEttinger	stcredzero: it's great being a brain in space. free IRC
19:06	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: For some reason your movie reminded me of the soul-crushing sadness of Her. Did you see that movie?
19:06	sdegutis	I just did it!! https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/src/billow/service.clj#L14-L19
19:06	gfredericks	all of us reappear an infinite number of times in universes that are entirely identical to ours except that the moon landing was a hoax
19:06	TEttinger	I had a movie?
19:06	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Wow, I accidentally some words there.
19:06	sdegutis	I used lazy infinite sequences to come up with a uniquely numbered name!
19:06	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Your comment reminded me*
19:07	stcredzero	This sentence no verb!
19:07	TEttinger	I was confused for a bit. no I have not seen Her
19:07	brehaut	gfredericks: in some of those existances cabbage trees are true
19:07	socksy	ugh i'm getting java.lang.OutOfMemoryError, but i have no idea which part of my code is producing it. Any tips for debugging?
19:07	AeroNotix	uh, with (time) is there something which'll give me the time as a value and the value of the expression I am evaluating?
19:07	rasmusto	socksy: jvisualvm?
19:08	AeroNotix	socksy: visualvn
19:08	AeroNotix	visualvm
19:08	hiredman	see where your code is allocating lots of memory and stop doing that
19:08	gfredericks	AeroNotix: I have this bg macro that is awesome for that
19:08	gfredericks	AeroNotix: oh wait no
19:08	gfredericks	I did not read that carefully
19:08	gfredericks	I've needed that a lot too and keep re-writing it
19:08	AeroNotix	gfredericks: I want to make a "r u there db" call and time it, as a statistics healthpoint
19:08	wink	reading the last 15minutes makes me wonder if I am drunk or some of you are.
19:09	AeroNotix	wink: I am
19:09	AeroNotix	always.
19:09	rasmusto	some-> people are
19:09	hiredman	a profile is great, but just a read through the code should give you a good idea at what is using all the memory
19:09	cbp	I am just dum
19:09	hiredman	profiler
19:09	gfredericks	(defmacro t [& body] `(let [b# (System/currentTimeMillis) ret# (do ~@body)] [ret# (- (System/currentTimeMillis) b#)]))
19:09	amalloy	AeroNotix: i remember seeing something called with-timing, but i forget where
19:09	TEttinger	socksy: I've gotten that in interesting places before, that error.
19:09	gfredericks	AeroNotix: ^there I wrote it again
19:10	AeroNotix	gfredericks: cool, ok. So I'll need to write something for this. No worries. I thought there might be something in the standard library for it
19:10	socksy	going to check out visualvm, cheers
19:10	AeroNotix	gfredericks: or maybe there's a secret cheat mode for (time) where it binds some variable or w/e
19:10	stcredzero	socksy: you going to run that on OS X?
19:10	amalloy	in one of ztellman's libraries, i think
19:10	socksy	the annoying thing about it is that it's an array that reaches the VM limit, but I'm not explictly creating any arrays
19:10	hiredman	the thing with oomes is they occur when you don't have enough memory to satisfy some request, which doesn't tell you about where all the memory is being used
19:11	socksy	stcredzero: arch linux
19:11	stcredzero	socksy: this is fortunate
19:11	TEttinger	socksy, I'm currently struggling with an odd issue with OpenJDK on windows giving that (or maybe something similar) on startup if more than half the RAM on the system is used
19:11	socksy	interesting
19:12	TEttinger	but mine's on startup of the JDK
19:12	socksy	(I've increased the heap size, so it's not a heap memory issue, rather, an issue with array sizes, given they're indexed by ints)
19:12	wink	TEttinger: there is openjdk for windows? oh, wow.
19:13	hiredman	socksy: just because you get an oome while doing something with an array, that doesn't mean the memory is all being consumed there, it just means that is where the vm noticed it didn't have enough
19:13	TEttinger	wink, yeah it's the only full JVM that you're legally allowed to resdistribute modified versions of.
19:13	hiredman	are you holding on to the head of large sequences
19:14	socksy	hiredman: agreed, but it's specifically an out of memory error regarding the array size limit
19:14	wink	TEttinger: interesting. the thought never crossed my mind actually, as I always had Sun/Oracle JDK on windows anyway.
19:15	hiredman	socksy: seems unlike that would be an oome, do you have a gist of the stacktrace?
19:15	TEttinger	wink, yeah especially starting with JDK 8 there's a hefty advantage to modifying it. the JRE is something like 100 MB unaltered.
19:15	wink	TEttinger: you mean the download? I've never had to distribute it
19:16	TEttinger	actually JDK 8 is even larger, but the part you would distribute is (IIRC) 118 MB
19:16	TEttinger	I've been looking into distributing full JREs as a way of avoiding java installation/update hassles
19:17	socksy	hiredman: gimme a few minutes to rerun and run out of memory, but it's just the one liner "java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Requested array size exceeds VM limit", from calling a function in the repl (no stacktrace :\)
19:17	red00	how can i interact with clojurebot?
19:17	hiredman	socksy: (require 'clojure.stacktrace) (print-stack-trace *e)
19:17	justin_smith	,:red00
19:17	clojurebot	:red00
19:17	red00	thanks
19:18	justin_smith	np
19:18	rasmusto	red00: you can /msg clojurebot too
19:18	socksy	hiredman: fantastic
19:18	hiredman	socksy: assuming you are using nrepl/cider for whatever annoying reason they decided to default to not displaying stacktraces
19:18	hiredman	socksy: there is something setting you can toggle to get it to pop up the stracktrace, but I forget what it is
19:19	justin_smith	also there is also clojure.repl/pst
19:19	Averell	toggle-debug-on-error
19:19	justin_smith	Averell: that is for emacs errors
19:19	justin_smith	not jvm ones
19:19	Averell	oh. i didn't read close enough
19:19	hiredman	terrible defaults everywhere
19:20	hiredman	people thing the stacktraces are ugly, so lets hide them, so now you can't figure out what broke
19:23	socksy	ugh, obviously too sleep deprived because I knew about the stacktrace issue before and forgot to enable it this time. Running the program again...
19:26	socksy	aha, it's a stringbuilder
19:28	arohner	hiredman: that's why I don't upgrade emacs libraries :-)
19:28	arohner	that, and I never remember how
19:29	socksy	https://gist.github.com/socksy/9796104
19:29	brehaut	arohner: step one, find a goat…
19:29	rasmusto	M-x package-destroy-sanity
19:29	murphy_	haha
19:29	justin_smith	(inc rasmusto)
19:29	lazybot	⇒ 4
19:29	rasmusto	I just upgrade to cider, seems okay so far :p
19:29	justin_smith	you'd think emacs people could make a better package management thing
19:30	justin_smith	from nrepl? did you just purge nrepl first?
19:30	AeroNotix	when will people learn to put their emacs config into vcs
19:30	rasmusto	I think I deleted ~/.emacs.d/elpa and changed around init.el to have cider in it
19:30	murphy_	probably never would be my guess ??
19:30	lazybot	murphy_: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
19:30	rasmusto	then re-ran everything
19:30	amalloy	arohner, hiredman: slime/swank for life? are we in that club?
19:31	hiredman	no, I am using cider :/
19:31	rasmusto	I'm a big fan of pathogen + git-submodule
19:31	rasmusto	(sorry emacs ppl)
19:31	justin_smith	AeroNotix: how would I track my package state? is there a single file for that? Would I need to check in all my elc files?
19:31	hiredman	rasmusto: git subtree is way better
19:31	hiredman	submodule is terrible
19:31	socksy	now this is during a function which is updating an agent map, which admittedly has strings in it, but each string should only be a few characters. I am wondering if it's actually having the error from the repl trying to print out the map
19:31	arohner	amalloy: I'm on some version of nrepl, but I was definitely the last person in my company to switch from slime
19:32	rasmusto	hiredman: does it actually let you look at the contents of the "modules/trees"?
19:32	rasmusto	instead of just dumping a sha into /.git
19:32	hiredman	socksy: yes, it is just the repl printing
19:32	amalloy	; SLIME 20100404
19:32	amalloy	<3
19:32	socksy	so this time when I've been thinking it's been running out of memory, it hasn't really
19:33	hiredman	rasmusto: http://makingsoftware.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/using-git-subtrees-for-repository-separation/
19:33	amalloy	socksy: you are trying to print something which is the size of a small country
19:33	hiredman	rasmusto: you never have to submodule init or anything
19:34	hiredman	when you do a git checkout, it is all there
19:35	rasmusto	so are the master sha1s derived from all of the content of local files and the subtrees?
19:35	hiredman	rasmusto: I believe so
19:35	rasmusto	hiredman: can I do a git subtree fetch --prefix blah/foo ?
19:36	hiredman	I have no idea
19:36	rasmusto	hiredman: I'll have to try it out, submodules fit the need of dotfiles, but subtrees sound better overall
19:36	sdegutis	Ah, my test almost passed, but then I realized I need a really dynamic fake-service that stubs some remote calls and mocks others.
19:37	stcredzero	Am I correct in thinking that cons is O(1)?
19:37	hiredman	I still have a few emacs packages in my emacs as submodules but I have been converting to subtree
19:37	sdegutis	stcredzero: looks like it to me
19:37	sdegutis	hiredman: I have been just vendoring them from elpa, seems to work great so far
19:37	rasmusto	hiredman: can you do a git subtree foreach git pull? (not that it's safe)
19:37	AeroNotix	justin_smith: I just check in .emacs and .emacs.d/
19:37	sdegutis	hiredman: see https://github.com/sdegutis/dotfiles/tree/master/home/.emacs.d/elpa
19:38	sdegutis	package.el takes care of all the grunt work for me
19:38	AeroNotix	justin_smith: and yeah, there's a file which tracks what's installed.
19:39	hiredman	no
19:39	hiredman	but the whole reason I stick emacs packages in git is I found something I like and I don't want to change it
19:42	sdegutis	technomancy: honestly it's not elisp that's frustrating, it's the emacs api
19:42	sdegutis	technomancy: it's probably just inherent in the problem space.. you've got so many different parts that need to work together, and they're mostly codependent
19:42	justin_smith	wait, elisp is somehow distinct from the emacs api?
19:42	sdegutis	I think defcustom vs defvar vs defadvice vs vs setq vs setq-default etc etc is a good example
19:44	socksy	ok, going to call it a night. Thanks for all the help, everyone
19:44	sdegutis	justin_smith: yessir
19:44	sdegutis	socksy: any time
19:48	sdegutis	It fricken worked.
19:54	sdegutis	Also I really don't like these tests.. but I don't know a better way: https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/test/billow/service_test.clj
19:54	sdegutis	Any suggestions?
19:54	sdegutis	They're just so.. crappy overall.
19:55	justin_smith	responses and testing-configs could easily go in a separate file / namespace
19:55	amalloy	sdegutis: what is spec buying you over like clojure.test there?
19:55	amalloy	you just have a bunch of assertions
19:55	sdegutis	amalloy: I couldn't find a test-autorunner for clojure.test
19:57	technomancy	sdegutis: defadvice has nothing to do with the others
19:57	technomancy	I agree that defcustom is silly though
19:57	technomancy	defvar is just defonce; that's kind of important
19:57	amalloy	technomancy: whaaaaat. defcustom is great
19:57	sdegutis	technomancy: right, it's for hooks, and rms says non-users shouldn't even use them
19:58	technomancy	amalloy: the customize UI is pretty cringeworthy though
19:58	justin_smith	technomancy: defcustom is kind of like "view level" - it's telling emacs how to make a friendly interactive config wizard for your lib
19:58	technomancy	it seems like a lame attempt to make it so people can use emacs without writing elisp
19:58	technomancy	like the toolbar
19:58	amalloy	technomancy: i mean, it's not great, but getting a color-chooser widget is so much nicer than having to guess what all available colors are named
19:58	amalloy	or a font-style widget, etc
19:59	amalloy	and feedback like "dude that's not the type that this variable expects" the moment you set it, instead of next time you reload your .emacs
19:59	sdegutis	amalloy: What's the motivation to use defcustom when someone isn't using customize-ui?
19:59	amalloy	sdegutis: there is none
19:59	amalloy	afaik
19:59	sdegutis	hyPiRion: thx
19:59	amalloy	but i use the customize ui
19:59	technomancy	amalloy: hm; I've never seen it used for either of those things
19:59	sdegutis	amalloy: ah
20:00	justin_smith	I find browsing a customize buffer gets me the option I need faster than reading docs does, and is more likely to be accurate to my version than googling
20:00	technomancy	unless you count M-x customize-face, which doesn't actually use defcustom
20:00	amalloy	okay, maybe i was counting customize-face
20:00	sdegutis	amalloy: I've used customize-themes just because it's the quickest way to try out new themes while disabling old ones, but I'd prefer a UI more like magit and less like windows-95
20:00	amalloy	but eg, you can specify :type int, and then the user can't enter strings
20:00	sdegutis	sorry, windows-3.1
20:01	sdegutis	Magit is just wicked awesome.
20:09	sdegutis	yessss, it works so really.
20:14	sdegutis	hyPiRion: hmm good idea
20:14	sdegutis	amalloy: do you know of a good test-autorunner for clojure.test?
20:15	amalloy	$ watch lein test
20:15	sdegutis	That seems maybe not the best?
20:16	sdegutis	Thought I remembered two ones that started existing.
20:17	amalloy	definitely not best. but i don't really care about autotest, and if i did i'm not sure what a lein plugin would do that's better than just running tests constantly
20:17	bob2	I think midje's auto run thing can run c.t tests?
20:18	technomancy	sdegutis: the in-emacs stuff is fine
20:18	technomancy	I just think we can do better
20:18	sdegutis	not while network effect is a thing
20:19	technomancy	clojure-test-mode is probably the most widely-used monkeypatch in the whole clojure ecosystem
20:19	technomancy	well, no, that would be lein test. it's the oldest extant monkeypatch.
20:20	jasonjckn	so happy I went to clojure/west
20:22	jasonjckn	I think i'll register with clojure/conj now
20:24	hiredman	the conj tends to come together at the last minute, so you can't register until a few months before hand, and last time I think they sold out before they even announced who was speaking
20:24	sdegutis	Oh hey, clojure-test-mode is nice.
20:25	sdegutis	Okay, so let's say someone wanted to help out and make clojure-test-mode not so monkey-patchy, and has a few spare hours.. what would need to be done?
20:25	technomancy	sdegutis: steal rich's SSH key so clojure.test itself can be fixed
20:25	sdegutis	Can it not be just forked?
20:26	sdegutis	(his ssh key)
20:26	sdegutis	(I mean clojure.test)
20:27	technomancy	nrepl-discover actually does the same monkeypatch https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover/blob/master/src/nrepl/discover/samples.clj#L38
20:27	technomancy	sdegutis: sorry, being a smartass
20:27	technomancy	the actual thing that's missing is just more detail about where the failure occurred
20:28	bob2	is it a backwards incompatible change?
20:30	technomancy	I don't think so
20:31	technomancy	in this case we're storing results on the vars where the failures occured
20:31	technomancy	seems unlikely that would break anything except code that was already doing that monkeypatch
20:33	sdegutis	Why didn't someone just submit a pull request fixing it for Clojure 1.6?
20:38	sdegutis	How do you assert that nothing is thrown in clojure.test?
20:38	technomancy	deftest
20:38	technomancy	or just is
20:41	sdegutis	woot thx
20:41	sdegutis	<3
20:48	chare	so what do you guys think of this https://hackworth.be/2014/03/26/clojure-web-security-is-worse-than-you-think/
20:49	brehaut	chare: the article is a bit wacky but the presentation is really good
20:49	chare	so you're saying clojure is broken in security for web?
20:49	brehaut	im not sure where the author got “Building secure Clojure web applications needs to be easier, and requires integrated security frameworks - not standalone libraries!” from
20:50	brehaut	chare: not at all. but it needs more work
20:50	chare	so does that mean i should stick with ruby on rails?
20:50	brehaut	chare: you need to decide that for yourself
20:50	chare	brehaut i'm going to assume you're a security expert so i need advice
20:51	brehaut	chare: assuming random people on the internet are security experts is probably a poor starting position ;)
20:51	chare	brehaut you admitting you don't know anything?
20:51	brehaut	no
20:53	btbngr	cider-repl gives me nice argument hints in the minibuffer within the repl, but is just not doing anything so nice inside my .clj files, is there a way to improve that?
20:53	btbngr	cider* not cider-repl.
20:54	scottj	btbngr: maybe eldoc-mode? (I haven't used cider, not sure if it uses eldoc-mode for that)
20:55	btbngr	nope, not as is anyway. hey ho. thanks anyhow.
20:56	scottj	just confirmed nrepl.el uses eldoc-mode for that, so you might want to doublecheck
20:58	btbngr	hmm, okay, sounds like i need to investigate my configuration. ta.
20:58	akhudek	chare: there is no "inherent" problem with clojure prevent one from building a secure app. If you really care about security, you should not be relying on your framework to keep you safe anyways. That's not an argument against secure defaults of course, but rather one that suggests that every web developer should learn about security vulnerabilities anyways.
20:59	rhg135	I'm trying to convert https://www.refheap.com/66390 to tail-recursion or a loop but i'm completely lost. any ideas?
21:01	amalloy	rhg135: you can't recurse multiple times in constant space. you have to either use up some stack, or manage a stack/queue yourself as data
21:02	rhg135	amalloy, i only see 1 recursion there though
21:02	amalloy	rhg135: you're mapping
21:02	amalloy	that's "the same as" [(f x) (f y) (f z)]
21:02	rhg135	i see
21:02	rhg135	hmm
21:03	btbngr	scottj: aha, found (cider-turn-on-eldoc-mode) in cider-eldoc.el, thanks, that was the clue I needed.
21:03	rhg135	then cps conversion?
21:03	amalloy	shrug sure, if you want, although loop/recur with a local "todo" stack will probably be easier
21:04	rhg135	oh duh
21:04	amalloy	and clojure doesn't optimize tail calls anyway, so you'd have to transform the cps into a trampoline
21:04	amalloy	otoh, if this blows your stack, you're building a really deep map
21:04	amalloy	which might later blow your stack anyway, when you try to work with it, even if you avoid doing so while building it
21:06	chare	why does lein run take like 5 seconds to run a hello world program?
21:16	pjstadig	JVM
21:16	jcromartie	no, Clojure
21:17	amalloy	yeah, it's clojure for sure, not jvm
21:18	jcromartie	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/e3566f573eb7f7fd6bb5
21:19	jcromartie	JVM is fast now. Welcome to 2009.
21:19	verma	what is the general strategy for testing a lein plugin?
21:23	verma	ok, found this: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PLUGINS.md
21:23	jcromartie	you can test your core plugin function like any other
21:24	brehaut	python is slower than the jvm on my machine which is pretty funny
21:24	hyPiRion	verma: I generally just think really hard before I deploy it. And I usually do it when I'm not tired.
21:24	hyPiRion	It's not your standard unit testing technique, but it's a supplement I guess
21:25	hyPiRion	=)
21:32	stcredzero	what's the fastest way to flatten sequences, if you don't give a __ about ordering?
21:34	hyPiRion	~flatten
21:34	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
21:35	hyPiRion	afaik, removing the ordering wouldn't help at all
21:35	stcredzero	I'm using sequences aggregate a sequence of collections from pmap, and I really do want something completely flat.
21:36	hyPiRion	stcredzero: so essentially a list of lists? Then (apply concat (pmap ...)) should be sufficient
21:37	stcredzero	To put it another way, what's the fastest way to collect stuff coming out of functions sent to pmap as one collection?
21:37	hyPiRion	Or, if you want to be fancy, you can use an atom, set up your own threadpool, and make each process do (swap! atm concat my-results)
21:38	arrdem	manually managed threadpools ++
21:38	stcredzero	I'm actually not using pmap. I wrote my own pmap like thing using futures that blocks until everyone is finished. I think I'd rather not manage threadpools.
21:39	jcromartie	stcredzero: how about a set?
21:40	stcredzero	Will just mapping futures mess things up? What thread pool are those coming out of? How big?
21:40	hyPiRion	jcromartie: will remove duplicates, which is not exactly the same as unordered?
21:40	jcromartie	don't forget about laziness
21:40	jcromartie	hyPiRion: depends on what he wants
21:40	stcredzero	jcromartie: set might work. I'm tempted to use swap! and cons. I'm using mapv and doall to get rid of laziness in this case
21:41	jcromartie	OK so, pmap produces a seq of seqs?
21:41	jcromartie	and you want a single collection of the values of that inner seq?
21:41	stcredzero	jcromartie: yes, it would produce a seq of seqs if I just pumped it through pmap
21:42	stcredzero	jcromartie: and yes, I just want what would be the flattened seq
21:43	jcromartie	what about… (reduce into #{} (pmap whatever coll))
21:43	hyPiRion	stcredzero: (let [atm (atom [])] (mapv deref (mapv #(future (swap! atm into (list-of-elements))) unprocessed-data)) @atm) sounds sorta what you'd like
21:43	hyPiRion	but I'm not sure it's very nice wrt. threading
21:44	stcredzero	not nice wrt threading is bad.
21:45	jcromartie	define "nice"
21:45	jcromartie	nice as in: well-behaved? or nice as in: using as many cores as fully as possible?
21:45	hyPiRion	stcredzero: I mean, pmap is already bad. Perhaps https://github.com/TheClimateCorporation/claypoole would help you here
21:45	stcredzero	hyPiRion: yes, so I've heard, so I'm not using pmap.
21:46	hyPiRion	stcredzero: so well, the solution I presented delegates all its work to the future threadpool. It's hard to control, but perhaps that's suitable for your type of work
21:47	hyPiRion	*harder
21:47	jcromartie	pmap uses futures
21:48	stcredzero	hyPiRion: how big is the future threadpool? (+ (count cores) 2)?
21:48	arrdem	stcredzero: I think it's bigger than that...
21:49	jcromartie	look
21:49	jcromartie	on my 4-core machine, (reduce into #{} (pmap f coll)) is 4X faster than with map
21:49	jcromartie	I think that's what you want
21:50	jcromartie	(for a long running op where threading overhead is negligible)
21:50	stcredzero	jcromartie: however, this is for cpu bound things which are still short. (Will be firing off many times per second.)
21:51	jcromartie	just test it
21:51	stcredzero	claypoole looks very interesting
21:52	hyPiRion	stcredzero: to answer your question, the future threadpool uses the same threadpool as the agent threadpool. That one grows without any bound, but will reuse threads which are done with their work.
21:54	stcredzero	hyPiRion: so I think this means that I should keep claypoole in mind, but just use my mapv-futures-thing until I see an issue.
21:54	arrdem	unbounded threadpools are suckage.
21:54	jcromartie	are you positive that your mapv-futures-thing is any better than pmap?
21:55	hyPiRion	jcromartie: pmap is horrible if you have some large spikes in working time here and there. Try to check out how fast (pmap #(Thread/sleep %) (concat [1000] (repeat 0 (+ 2 (.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors))) [1000])) is
21:55	stcredzero	jcromartie: in that I don't want lazy evaluation for this part, yes.
21:55	hyPiRion	whoops, flip order of the arguments in repeat
21:56	jcromartie	reduce forces the evaluation
21:56	jcromartie	but I'm just saying, if you're using futures
21:56	jcromartie	pmap uses futures
21:58	stcredzero	claypoole looks very attractive. I'm using this for a parallelized game loop, so lazy evaluation is actually dangerous. Also, I can just keep the thread pool sized (+ cores 2) and keep it around for the game loop to use.
22:00	hyPiRion	jcromartie: The issue is that a slow task will block calls later in the list. E.g. if I have a dual core processor, then the 4th task after any task sent off will not be executed before that task is completed
22:02	arrdem	stcredzero: for that application probably what you'll wind up doing is just spinning off N threads and using atoms to implement message queues. Unless your drawing engine is single threaded and you need to coalate all the drawing results rather than splatting them directly "out".
22:02	jcromartie	,(time (doall (pmap #(Thread/sleep %) [1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1000 0])))
22:02	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
22:02	jcromartie	well anyway, for me, it was 1s
22:03	stcredzero	arrdem: it's a multiplayer game. It doesn't "draw" so much as send maps over websockets
22:04	hyPiRion	&(Thread/sleep 1000)
22:04	lazybot	⇒ nil
22:05	hyPiRion	(time (doall (pmap #(Thread/sleep %) (concat [1000] (repeat (+ 2 (.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)) 0) [1000]))))
22:05	hyPiRion	&(time (doall (pmap #(Thread/sleep %) (concat [1000] (repeat (+ 2 (.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)) 0) [1000]))))
22:05	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pmap is bad!
22:05	hyPiRion	oh, but Thread/sleep is fine? lazybot, I don't get you.
22:06	jcromartie	hyPiRion: I see, it's when it falls on the particular placement in the sequence?
22:08	stcredzero	arrdem: also, it's a game that needs a discrete grid and I'd also like to have discrete time steps. agent-y/actor-y nondeterminacy is bad
22:08	hyPiRion	jcromartie: right, when there's one really heavy function call, the list won't proceed beyond some element behind it because pmap is lazy
22:08	hyPiRion	semilazy, rather
22:11	turbofail	sounds like a job for claypoole
22:23	rhg135	amalloy, am I incorrect in thinking that `map` since it's lazy wouldn't cause a stack explosion
22:24	amalloy	rhg135: that's too general a question to really have an answer
22:24	amalloy	you can absolutely blow the stack with map, via like ##((fn f [xs] (map f xs)) '(1))
22:24	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
22:25	amalloy	&((fn f [xs] (map f [xs])) '(1))
22:25	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
22:25	rhg135	oh i see now, amalloy
22:25	rhg135	back to the drawing board :(
22:25	rhg135	can't figure out what to put in the queue
22:28	zenoli	How does one go about reading a file into a Buffy buffer? I've been beating my head against this for an hour.
22:38	amalloy	rhg135: why are you trying to make this tail-recursive? it seems really unlikely that that will lead to a program that's better in any interesting way
22:39	rhg135	amalloy, it's for a build tool if this (dependency graph generator) blows the stack large project would be no-ops
22:42	Frozenlock	If I put a CSS file in the resources of a library, will it be available for a project using this library?
22:43	amalloy	hmmm. do you have to build a big nested map? it seems like a one-level map of "all the things X depends on" should be useable (not sure if it needs to be transitive dependencies or direct)
22:45	rhg135	amalloy, yeah you know f*** it this is a POC and i'll try that
22:47	TravisD	Now that's a TLA that you don't see every day
22:49	lemonodor	zenoli: i don’t know, and i haven’t tried buffy, but i liked using https://github.com/ztellman/gloss pretty well,
22:50	zenoli	lemonodor: Thanks...does it deal well with dynamic frames?
22:52	lemonodor	i didn’t try. i was using it to parse AR.Drone telemetry data, which uses a tagged format, but i used my own logic to delimit tagged frames
22:53	zenoli	I just managed to finally get it to accept a file object...the version in Clojars is -beta1, which seems to not like wrapped buffers at all.
22:57	lemonodor	https://github.com/wiseman/turboshrimp/blob/master/src/com/lemondronor/turboshrimp/navdata.clj if you want to see an example
22:59	bob2	TravisD, depends where you work!
22:59	zenoli	Woo, just managed to successfully extract a string!
23:01	zenoli	lemonodor: Thanks...that's really helpful. I'll poke at gloss as well, since I'm not deeply committed at this point.
23:06	lemonodor	btw, one reason i did the tagged frame logic myself was to do lazy decoding, so i didn’t go to the overhead of parsing every frame if it wasn’t being used.
23:07	lemonodor	go to the overhead? i meant go to the trouble.
23:10	zenoli	I'm trying out a modfile parser for overtone...my first attempt is morbidly inefficient, just sucking in the entire file.
23:11	zenoli	Java I/O is a terrible twisty maze of classes, all alike.
23:11	brehaut	the dwarf throws his axe.
23:11	brehaut	it misses
23:12	zenoli	plugh
23:21	malyn	lijnen___: I think it's here: https://github.com/swannodette/swannodette.github.com/blob/master/code/blog/src/blog/instrument/core.cljs
23:22	zenoli	Hmm...can you specify endianness of the representation in gloss? I'm not see anything along those lines in the docs for either it or buffy.
23:23	lemonodor	yes, there are -be and -le versions of each type. you might be able to set the endian-ness of the bytebuffer you give it, i’m not sure
23:23	stcredzero	so, if anyone wants to hop onto my online grid/map engine for my Clojure MMO, I'm running a stress test at http://raidsphere.com
23:24	stcredzero	It's not yet a game.
23:24	zenoli	lemonodor: Ah, hadn't thought to check the classes I was passing in.
23:28	zenoli	Yep, that does it. Excellent.