#clojure – 2014-03-25

2014-03-25

00:00	Frozenlock	It's very basic. I still haven't made a redo function.
00:00	zspencer	I love how clojure/script makes things like 'undo/redo' a non-issue
00:01	Frozenlock	zspencer: I want a tree undo/redo, but I don't even know where to begin :-(
00:01	bostonaholic	^^^ that'd be killer
00:01	zspencer	Explain the use case a bit more? Tree undo/redo doesn't click immediately with me
00:01	arrdem	zspencer: you back out changes and then want them back
00:01	Frozenlock	zspencer: http://briancarper.net/blog/568/emacs-undo-trees
00:03	zspencer	Ah, interesting.
00:03	Frozenlock	I don't use it often in emacs, but when I do, I'm REALLY happy to have it.
00:04	zspencer	Never realized vim did that
00:07	zspencer	undo/redo in vim always just seemed so natural that I didn't need to think about the interactio nmodel.
00:08	Frozenlock	http://www.bestofvim.com/plugin/gundo/
00:11	zspencer	Frozenlock: such beauty
00:24	ben_m	Anyone if there's a plugin for lazybot to enable aliases? Something like !alias add bot !echo I'm a bot
00:24	ben_m	^Anyone^Anyone know
00:26	arrdem	~anyone
00:26	_eric	if I have a function that takes [a & b] and I have an array, how do I pass the values of the array so that they end up in b?
00:28	Frozenlock	(apply my-fn (cons a? my-array))?
00:28	Frozenlock	a? --> whatever your `a` is.
00:29	_eric	interesting
00:29	_eric	what does the ? do?
00:29	_eric	(is there a name for it?)
00:29	Frozenlock	Nothing, it was me pointing the `a` out :p
00:29	_eric	oh
00:29	Frozenlock	(apply my-fn (cons some-argument my-array))?
00:30	_eric	got it
00:31	_eric	thanks
00:32	Guest52004	did you write the function?
00:33	_eric	yes
00:33	bob2	(remember you can change it to take a vector as the second arg instead)
00:34	_eric	well, most of the time I want it to not take a vector
01:15	ben_m	What's the most idiomatic way to remove a character from the start of the string, if it exists. ie. (if (= (nth s 0) \@) (subs s 1) s)
01:18	Raynes	ben_m: I'd use (first s) instead of nth, but otherwise looks fine to me.
01:19	ben_m	yeah i changed it to that
01:19	ben_m	alright
01:54	dissipate	is random number generation considered to be a 'side effect'?
01:56	ben_m	It depends where you get the seed from.
01:56	dissipate	ben_m, /dev/urandom
01:57	ben_m	Yeah, reading that is the side effect.
01:59	dissipate	ben_m, is it possible to do random number generation without side effects?
01:59	ben_m	Well you'd always get the same result.
02:01	ben_m	Pure functions are by definition deterministic, so they give the same result when you call them with the same parameters. You can see how that wouldn't work for random numbers.
02:01	Raynes	No.
02:01	Raynes	It's not really possible.
02:02	ben_m	What Haskell does, for example, is that the random number generation itself is pure. You provide it a StdGen and the generator functions return another StdGen and a value, and you thread that to the next generator, etc.
02:02	ben_m	That part is pure, and then you supply it with a StdGen you get through side effects.
02:04	dissipate	ben_m, would that be like a lazy sequence in clojure?
02:04	ben_m	I don't know how lazy sequences are implemented in clojure
02:07	ben_m	It would be something like (defn [seed] (let [[value1 seed'] (rand-float seed) [value2 _] (rand-float seed')] (+ value1 value2 ))
02:08	ben_m	Uh, don't mind the missing function name - you get the point I hope.
02:10	dissipate	ben_m, looks pure to me
02:10	dissipate	ben_m, but that's a psuedo-RNG
02:10	ben_m	Yeah that's the pure part.
02:10	ben_m	And then you'd seed it with something with side effects
02:10	ben_m	like reading /dev/urandom
02:11	ben_m	And yeah, that's just conceptual.
02:11	dissipate	ben_m, but anything reading from /dev/urandom isn't pure
02:11	ben_m	That's what I said :)
02:15	dissipate	ben_m, this is good actually. it also means no one can claim their RNG is referentially transparent
02:19	ambrosebs	holy crap the clojure/west videos are up already
02:19	dissipate	ambrosebs, from last year?
02:20	ambrosebs	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhRQmT22SSg
02:20	ambrosebs	no!
02:20	ambrosebs	from yesterday!
02:23	dissipate	ambrosebs, did you see this? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/fp-languages-bug-free-fault-tolerant
02:23	ambrosebs	no?
02:23	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
02:37	jph-	anyone know if i can use postgres enum types with lobos migrations?
02:55	Cr8	ambrosebs: !
02:55	Cr8	slides synced up and all even this is pretty wild to have already available
02:57	Cr8	oh nice its recorded straight off the laptops i'm guessing
03:06	jph-	anyone familiar with timbre for logging?
03:10	gyim	not super familiar, but i've used it
03:11	jph-	im getting some log4j:WARN No appenders could be found for logger (com.mchange.v2.log.MLog) message
03:11	jph-	i think log4j is being used by jdbc or related... but i haven't told it where to send logs
03:11	jph-	and googling has not given me any love so far
03:12	gyim	do you have a log4j.properties file?
03:12	jph-	nope, haven't needed one
03:12	jph-	for the other stuff
03:12	jph-	i dont even know what specifically is generating the com.mchange stuff
03:12	devn	queues in cljs... what do people use?
03:12	jph-	some library in my webapp
03:13	gyim	ok, then i guess it's not related to timbre
03:13	gyim	put a log4j.properties file into resources/
03:13	devn	specifically i'm thinking of keyboard events. I want to be able to capture a kind of sliding/logging buffer of keystrokes
03:13	devn	so i can group keystrokes within, say 10ms of one another as a single vent
03:13	devn	event*
03:14	gyim	jph-: this is a simple starting point for log4j config: http://www.mkyong.com/logging/log4j-log4j-properties-examples/
03:14	Cr8	if you're up for core.async that'd be pretty amenable to that
03:14	jph-	gyim, i dont know how to apply the java log4j stuff in the context of a clojure project
03:14	jph-	i can figure out what to include, but not where and why i need it
03:15	jph-	i dont even know what damn library is triggering the message :P
03:16	Cr8	that is it has sliding buffers built in, and you can do debounce-y things fairly easily with timeout channels
03:16	Cr8	&alts
03:16	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: alts in this context
03:16	Cr8	heh
03:18	gyim	jph-: clojure is not different from java here: if one of your libraries depends on log4j, you need a log4j config. If you put a config into the resources/ directory, it will be put into your jar file => it won't complain about missing appender config
03:18	jph-	gyim, ok
03:18	jph-	i'll start there
03:18	gyim	the alternative, of course, is to find the library that depends on log4j and remove it
03:18	jph-	i think it's one of the database-related libraries
03:18	jph-	im using a luminus template, and another webapp using same template isnt complaining... so i'm trying to compare between them
03:20	jph-	looks like an older luminus template explicitly added a log4j config in project.clj, i removed it and it's fine
03:20	gyim	great
03:20	jph-	just... annoying :P
03:20	gyim	:)
03:20	jph-	debugging clojure stuff can be a real PITA sometimes
03:20	jph-	especially when it's in java land
03:44	augustl	cljs question. Does it make sense to somehow extend the cljs protocols for JVM types? The use case being running cljs in nashorn, and passing in clojure values directly
03:44	tomjack	fellow univalence amateur?
03:47	tomjack	I wonder why the query "nashorn interop" seems fruitless
03:55	tomjack	it is rather interesting to see noms in http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.7807v1.pdf
04:02	jph-	i'm getting an exception when firing up a repl, but there's nothing in *e or (pst). Any way to make the repl more informative at launch?
04:03	cYmen_	jph-: Have you tried lein repl in the terminal and looked at Messages?
04:04	cYmen_	Wait, which environment is this?
04:07	jph-	cYmen_, i'll check
04:07	jph-	cYmen_, it's a ring handler repl
04:08	cYmen_	jph-: But are you starting it from emacs or some other IDE?
04:09	jph-	cYmen_, command line
04:09	cYmen_	Huh...and there is nothing in the messages about why it fails?
04:10	jph-	nope
04:11	jph-	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
04:11	jph-	nREPL server started on port 47229 on host 127.0.0.1
04:11	jph-	REPL-y 0.3.0
04:11	jph-	...
04:12	cYmen_	but the repl starts?
04:12	jph-	correct
04:13	cYmen_	hmhmhm
04:14	cYmen_	probably something about ring trying to start the server in the background :/
04:14	jph-	oh
04:14	jph-	ooooooooooooooh
04:14	cYmen_	Sorry, can't really help you I'm afraid.
04:14	jph-	i found it
04:14	jph-	in my repl.clj
04:14	jph-	(:require [cheshire.core :refer :all]
04:14	jph-	[criterium.core :as :crit]
04:14	jph-	:as :crit
04:14	jph-	helpful error messages again
04:15	cYmen_	Yeah, it is indeed a Keyword not a Symbol.
04:15	cYmen_	Not your fault.
04:15	jph-	heh
04:15	jph-	wasnt there a clojure linter
04:15	cYmen_	I've been complaining about exactly this kind of problem just yesterday.
04:15	jph-	i wonder if that'd pick that crap up
04:16	jph-	the other fun one... leave an empty () in your code somewhere
04:16	cYmen_	Wait, I need to take notes.
04:16	cYmen_	:p
04:16	jph-	yeh
04:16	jph-	for messing with your clojure colleague
04:16	clojurebot	I don't understand.
04:16	jph-	for leaving his terminal unlocked
04:16	cYmen_	hahaha
04:18	ddellacosta	jph-: clojure linter is https://github.com/jonase/eastwood
04:18	jph-	thats the one
04:19	cYmen_	Is it any good?
04:19	jph-	well it's complaining about a lot of stuff
04:19	jph-	so i guess i should look deeper heh
04:23	ambrosebs	jph-: there is dynalint which injects code to give better runtime errors.
04:23	ambrosebs	jph-: much less complete tho
04:24	ambrosebs	eastwood relies on code compiling correctly before linting also
04:28	atyz	Is anyone using new relic with pedestal and NOT on heroku
04:28	atyz	?
05:01	sm0ke	so guys i have this macro where i want to evaluate form outside the usual `()
05:02	sm0ke	so my macro looks like (defmacro mm [a & body] (let [ea ~a] `(...)))
05:02	sm0ke	but this obviously fails
05:02	opqdonut	you're doing it wrong
05:03	opqdonut	do you really want to compute stuff read-time?
05:03	opqdonut	if so, you need to use eval
05:03	opqdonut	but using eval in your macros is a code smell
05:03	sm0ke	yea i am kind of not sure
05:03	gko	In Emacs nrepl-jack-in, how to make it follow :repl-options defined in project.clj, such as :init-ns? In command line, it works OK, but in nrepl-jack-in, I always land in user...
05:04	opqdonut	sm0ke: what does the macro do?
05:04	sm0ke	so i what i want is this my macro used to look like (with-objects [o1 o2 o3] (..))
05:05	sm0ke	but now i have a new requirement where it can takes an optional object (with-objects [o1 o2 o3] o4 (..))
05:05	sm0ke	i am not sure how to go about writing it
05:05	sm0ke	o4 can be a form as well as an object
05:05	sm0ke	it can ideally be a form returning an object
05:06	sm0ke	hurm
05:06	opqdonut	couldn't you just have two arities of your macro? 2 and 3?
05:06	opqdonut	if the body of with-objects can be multiple expressions, then you can't really disambiguate between the o4 and the normal case
05:07	opqdonut	but if it's just one expression, yay
05:07	sm0ke	opqdonut: yes but form can be multiple so this is not possible right ( [a b & body] [a & body])
05:07	opqdonut	yeah
05:07	sm0ke	yes
05:07	opqdonut	so you can't know whether you have o4 or a body expression
05:07	opqdonut	how about just (with-objects [o1 o2 o3 o4] ...)?
05:07	sm0ke	i wish i had something like (with-objects [o1 o2] :optional o4 (...))
05:08	opqdonut	that is doable but slightly ugly
05:08	sm0ke	opqdonut: its an entirenly different entity
05:08	opqdonut	(just check if body begins with a keyword)
05:08	sm0ke	hmm yea, ugly macro
05:09	sm0ke	seems like i would have to sacrifice & body to body
05:09	opqdonut	some suggestions: (with-objects [:objects o1 o2 o3 :the-other-thing o4] ...) (with-objects-simple [o1 o2 o3] ...) (with-objects-complex [o1 o2 o3] o4 ...)
05:09	opqdonut	or maybe (with-objects {:objects [o1 o2 o3] :other-thing o4} ...) ?
05:10	sm0ke	yep
05:10	sm0ke	sensible
05:10	opqdonut	added bonus: by using a map literal you avoid any parsing in the macro body
05:11	opqdonut	err s/body/implementation/
05:11	sm0ke	true
05:26	atyz	Has anyone got new-relic working with a pedestal app?
05:40	tomjack`	what was the clojure in make named?
05:43	quotemstr	What's the preferred way of representing Clojure forms with Emacs sexps?
06:02	dsrx	quotemstr: i've been using (print-to-string '(whatever (quote blah blah)) t) to some success
06:02	dsrx	the t argument is crucial to avoid escaping dots
06:03	dsrx	in the wild I see a lot of clojure forms as string constants in emacs lisp... i just hate not being able to paredit them
06:06	scottj	dsrx: there's probably some fancy way to narrow the buffer to just the string area and have it in clojure-mode w/ paredit
06:06	dsrx	yeah, there is something like that in emacs I think
06:07	dsrx	ah here we go acebook.com
06:07	dsrx	err
06:07	dsrx	argh, I don't know why chrome does that all the time. anyway here we go http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/IndirectBuffers
06:09	scottj	dsrx: just selecting the entire contents of the string (w/o quotes) and running narrow-to-region seems to allow paredit to work, though the content is all still highlighted as a string
06:10	dsrx	right, seems straightforward enough to write something that creates an indirect buffer w/ clojure-mode and then narrows to the region
06:10	dsrx	and switches to it
06:44	jph-	the penny has finally dropped re thread-first thread-last
06:44	jph-	im now in heaven
06:49	CookedGryphon	rhow do I get rid of reflection warnings in proxy-super calls?
06:49	CookedGryphon	inside a proxy, surely it should know what super is
06:59	fikusz	how could I call a series of functions on the same object?
06:59	CookedGryphon	doto
07:00	fikusz	CookedGryphon: thanks, checking
07:04	mskoud_	In the compojure routing DSL fx (GET "/product/:id/" [id] (str "<h1>Product " id "</h1>")) the (str ...) is not evaluated right away, but is it good practice that a macro handles the quoting? It would be easy to understand it it was quoted '(str...) like "normal" code i think.
07:06	clgv	mskoud_: the macro does not necessarily do any quoting. usually macros generate code. in this case I'd assume that a function with destructuring is generated so that all symbols are bound and thus no quoting is needed (but I have not checked the code)
07:07	mskoud_	maybe, just trying to come to terms with reading clojure :-)
07:08	clgv	mskoud_: perhaps what you mean with "the macro does the quoting" is the effect that parameters to a macro are not evaluated so that the macro is called with the original forms
07:11	mskoud_	and thats clever, but being a noice, reading the code, it looks like a form which will be evalueated right away.
07:12	clgv	mskoud_: but that's the general principle of macros. otherwise you couldnt use them for code transformation, e.g. for new control flow macros
07:13	clgv	mskoud_: eventually it comes down to read the documentation on the macro to learn what it does - but you have to do the same for functions as well
07:16	mskoud_	yes, i see. thanks.
08:00	kras	Hi, any good tutorial or suggested readings on zippers?
08:02	danielszmulewicz	kras: http://josf.info/blog/2014/03/21/getting-acquainted-with-clojure-zippers/
08:04	kras	danielszmulewicz: thank you !!
08:05	danielszmulewicz	kras: you're welcome.
08:48	felher	Hey folks. Is there a way to find out whether some code is run in nrepl or not?
08:54	clgv	felher: you can check whether nrepl namespaces are loaded. but why do you want to do that?
08:59	felher	clgv: I have the problem that when I use clojure.java.shell/sh, my application won't quit anymore. I know that everything is done, though. So I thought about just invoking System.exit when everythings done. But that gets me into trouble if I launch my application from the nrepl.
09:03	felher	Another approach would be using the main function as a wrapper like (do (run-main-application) (System/exit 0)) and just run run-main-application from the nrepl, I guess.
09:03	clgv	felher: how do you use `sh` - I guess you either do something wrong or found a bug
09:04	clgv	felher: do you use agents as well?
09:05	felher	clgv: No. Just using this program http://bpaste.net/show/193414/ and doing "clojure-1.5 program" doesn't quit on my machine.
09:06	clgv	felher: what is "clojure-1.5" in that case?
09:07	felher	clgv: the clojure from my gentoo package manager 'emerge' with the version 1.5.1
09:08	felher	clgv: which is a wrapper that executes clojure.main in the clojure jar, I guess.
09:08	clgv	felher: since clojure is a java jar what exactly is "clojure-1.5"? a bash script doing what?
09:09	clgv	felher: that `sh` scenario should work like a charm
09:09	felher	clgv: okay, i'll try it with the jar manually. Maybe it is different then. :)
09:12	felher	clgv: nope, "java -jar clojure-1.5.1.jar program" does exactly the same thing. And this is the jar from my local maven repository ( http://bpaste.net/show/193418/ )
09:12	clgv	felher: I just tried it. seems to be a problem with that shell namespace.
09:15	clgv	felher: ok the problem is that `sh` uses futures and thus the threadpool is still alive and prevents the program from exiting
09:15	clgv	felher: you could use a dynamic binding in-repl which is usually true but gets bound to false in your "-main" function
09:16	felher	clgv: yeah, I think that would work. Thanks. :)
09:17	clgv	I do that for programs as well, when they need to return non-zero exit values on error but I still want to test on repl
09:28	mikerod	Is there a simple way to use 'clojure.core/load' or clojure.lang.RT#load in a way that does not affect the class path of the caller?
09:29	mikerod	I'd like to load/compile the necessary clj to calculate some result, then allow it to all be GC'ed away. If that makes sense. So on-the-fly compile clj lib in a temporary context that can be thrown away later.
09:30	mikerod	I'm skeptical that the use of the clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader may already give me this behavior, or close to it if I set the correct context ClassLoader perhaps.
09:32	clgv	mikerod: maby with that one? https://github.com/ninjudd/classlojure
09:33	atyz	Has anyone had new relic running with pedestal?
09:34	mikerod	clgv: I forgot about this lib. It is probably somewhat applicable, but I don't actually need an "alternative" class path. I just don't want to affect the ClassLoader my lib is called from.
09:34	clgv	mikerod: well that lib would do that ;)
09:34	mikerod	I'm thinking of a scenario where a service on a long-running server calls my lib with some .clj source passed to me. I want to compile it and then calculate some return data from it.
09:35	clgv	mikerod: it is probably the easiest solution since otherwise you probably end up implementing all the behaviour yourself with the disadvantag to have to find the sparse classloader documentation ;)
09:35	mikerod	clgv: hah, ok. I'll look at it a bit more in depth then.
09:35	clgv	mikerod: another approach is to use the stuff of immutant
09:36	clgv	since you mentioned server, I remembered that they have some classloader isolation as well
09:36	verma	mikerod, isn't http://tryclj.com/ already doing sort of this? and its opensource
09:37	clgv	verma: not really it is probably only running a jail and a namespace per user
09:37	mikerod	verma: tryclj may be using the classlojure lib, I am not positive though.
09:37	mikerod	Hmm.
09:37	mikerod	Yeah, I could look at what immutant is doing too.
09:37	clgv	just guessing though..
09:38	clgv	mikerod: yeah immutant is probably safer since they are pretty actively maintaining it
09:38	verma	hmmm
09:38	mikerod	I've dug into DynamicClassLoader a bit before, and based on what I've seen there, I'm not sure it actually adds any new class definitions to the parent ClassLoader anyways though.
09:39	mikerod	I was sort of wondering if I get this behavior for "free" from Clojure compilation.
09:39	mikerod	As long as I don't release any references to classes that were loaded during the compilation back into the wild, preventing the DynamicClassLoader to be GC'ed.
09:40	clgv	but if you require namespaces they are globally loaded and only need to be refered to in different namespaces
09:40	mikerod	I'm sure it is valuable to look at these libs to make some more sense of this.
09:40	clgv	if the files do not contain namespaces and you create the surrounding namespace on the fly it would be possible with usual clojure
09:41	mikerod	clgv: ah, you mean they would have references held via the Namespace of the Clj runtime
09:41	mikerod	Such as Namespace#namespaces
09:42	mikerod	They do contain :require's, so I would infect the Clj env around me. booo
09:42	clgv	yes you would.
09:42	clgv	you need the kind of isolation used in immutant or classlojure to prevent that
09:42	mikerod	There is the Namespace#remove option. Maybe that's how these libs are doing it.
09:42	mikerod	clgv: Yep, it seems like we are back to that. I'll take your advice on it then. :)
09:43	mikerod	I appreciate the feedback.
09:45	clgv	I should be able to override hashCode and equals in a deftype right? but it seems my implementation is not called since I do not see the printlns I added there
09:46	mikerod	clgv: how are you trying to call it?
09:46	mikerod	clojure.core/hash?
09:46	clgv	(= a b)
09:47	clgv	or directly (.equals a b)
09:48	mikerod	oh
09:48	mikerod	Hmm, I thought you could override them.
09:49	clgv	very simple example:
09:49	clgv	,(deftype Bla [x] Object (hashCode [this] x) (equals [this, y] (= x y)))
09:49	clojurebot	sandbox.Bla
09:49	clgv	,(= (Bla. 42) (Bla. 42))
09:49	clojurebot	false
09:49	clgv	,(.equals (Bla. 42) (Bla. 42))
09:49	clojurebot	false
09:49	clgv	:/
09:50	llasram	clgv: Well, 42 != (Bla. 42)
09:50	clgv	llasram: right and?
09:50	llasram	Um, that's what your equals method is testing :-)
09:50	clgv	ups lol
09:50	mikerod	yeah, you are falling back to Obj equals
09:51	clgv	error in the minimal example that does not translate to the actual code...
09:52	clgv	so suppose there is a println in there for debugging what could possibly prevent it from being printed? in the minimal example it works
09:52	clgv	,(deftype Bla [x] Object (hashCode [this] x) (equals [this, y] (println "equals") (= x (.x y))))
09:52	clojurebot	sandbox.Bla
09:52	clgv	,(.equals (Bla. 42) (Bla. 42))
09:52	clojurebot	equals\ntrue
09:53	clgv	guess I ask the decompiler ^^
09:55	clgv	humm damn, restarting the repl helped after compiling
10:03	clgv	somehow redefining the deftype on the repl does not work consistently :(
10:07	mdrogalis	Wooo. 1.6 shipped
10:12	Morgawr	congratulations for Clojure 1.6! :D
10:12	Morgawr	someone has to change the topic now :P
10:17	Averell	man why is there still no update in arch? god i hate using this obsolete stuff.
10:18	AimHere	Yeah, clojure 1.6 is minutes old now!
10:19	clgv	Averell: you cant complain about arch before it's visible on the maven repository ;)
10:34	bhenry	why in the world is some? the name of (not (nil? x))
10:34	bhenry	in 1.6
10:40	mathw	1.6! Woo
10:41	mathw	This was a great time to pay attention to the channel
10:41	TimMc	That's bizarre!
10:43	llasram	You people need to subscribe to the mailing lists :-)
10:44	llasram	(wrt to `some?`)
10:44	TimMc	Nah, it's a total opinionfest in there.
10:45	llasram	snork
10:45	TimMc	But seriously, what's the deal?
10:48	TimMc	That's one of the worst bits of naming I've seen in a while. :-(
10:48	llasram	It lets you write (some some? sums)
10:48	clgv	probably "some" was misnamed in the first place and now we have to live with it ;)
10:49	clgv	TimMc: the alternative suggestions on the ML have not been much better ...
10:49	llasram	I think `some` is fine. `some->` is where we lost our way. But now the Holy Names granted by Hickey may not be questioned.
10:49	cYmen_	Should add some utf8...
10:49	cYmen_	Like a tiny car or some klingon...
10:51	TimMc	clgv: I'll take your word for it; I can't actually search the ML.
10:51	mengu	hi. is anyone here taking care of clojure.org web site? there are no books listed at http://clojure.org/books
10:53	waf	mengu: looks like it requires javascript
10:53	waf	if you're running ghostery or something try pausing it
10:53	clgv	TimMc: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure/%22some$3F%22/clojure/tseJgAi3HC4/0jyJ2BsUlB0J
10:54	mengu	which i have :)
10:54	mengu	let's check with another browser
10:54	waf	works for me in chrome with no adblock/ghostery running
10:55	mengu	ah, i got adblock
10:55	mengu	didn't even notice it blocked.
10:55	mengu	thx waf
10:56	clgv	yeah seems somehow stealthily blocked
10:56	TimMc	clgv: Thanks.
10:57	TimMc	something? and value? and even exists? look way better
11:02	TimMc	(map (comp (partial some some?) list) [true false nil 1]) ;; (true true nil true)
11:13	scgilardi	I'll be thinking "some?" means "some-value?" just like "contains?" means "contains-key?" (and consider sets a container of keys)
11:33	cored	hi
11:33	cored	is there a list resources books/articles for beginners ?
11:35	clgv	TimMc: hm ok, I forgot about "exists?". I'd use that as well^^
11:36	cbp	cored: You can start here http://clojure-doc.org/ There are a few free books such as http://www.braveclojure.com/ and aphyr's posts are good too http://aphyr.com/posts/301-clojure-from-the-ground-up-welcome For non free books Clojure Programming is good
11:36	cbp	cored you can also try doing exercises at 4clojure
11:37	clgv	cored: "Clojure Programming" is recommended frequently here.
11:38	cored	cbp: got it; thanks
11:38	cored	cbp: I will check that out
11:38	cored	cbp: I read Clojure Made Simple and I have Functional programming for object oriented programmers
11:39	cored	in queue; I was doing 4clojure ex. also but I want to retake it
11:46	alexyakushev_	Hello, is there anyone proficient with core.match?
11:50	clgv	~anyone
11:50	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
11:54	synkte	,(println "Good morning")
11:54	clojurebot	Good morning\n
11:55	alexyakushev_	Yep, good point
11:56	alexyakushev_	I have this function that refuses to be compiled: https://www.refheap.com/65410
11:56	alexyakushev_	Says "Invalid method Code length 72934", which means that method grew bigger than 64k
11:57	alexyakushev_	I wonder if it is a bug, or such usage of core.match is considered an abuse
11:58	edbond	alexyakushev_, did you try macroexpand?
11:59	alexyakushev_	edbond: Yep, gives 11k LoC
12:00	edbond	how big is the query?
12:00	TimMc	A colleague ran into this problem with some midje tests the other day.
12:01	alexyakushev_	edbond: It doesn't matter, it fails to compile, not to run
12:02	clgv	alexyakushev_: isnt there a warning that core.match has problems with AOT? at least it was on the project site in the past
12:03	clgv	humm it is not there anymore. so maybe that one got fixed
12:03	alexyakushev_	clgv: It might be, but my problem is not AOT-related, I can't compile it in the REPL
12:04	alexyakushev_	It seems like the generated code just gets too big for the JVM to hold in one class
12:04	clgv	alexyakushev_: in one method I'd say.
12:04	alexyakushev_	The question is, is it my wrong usage of core.match, or a bug somewhere
12:05	gtrak	core.match does gen a lot of code
12:05	alexyakushev_	clgv: Pretty sure it's class limitation: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se5.0/html/ClassFile.doc.html#9279
12:05	gtrak	but you could split things up into methods, no?
12:05	clgv	alexyakushev_: ping dnolen
12:06	clgv	alexyakushev_: but a function implementation without closures ends up in one java method, except for all the static constants
12:07	clgv	and there is definitely a limit on method implementation size on the vm. it was mentioned in the context of generated state machines
12:07	alexyakushev_	clgv: Yes, I know. Well, it doesn't matter much since a class for function contains just one method for this function
12:08	alexyakushev_	OK, I just have never seen this kind of error before, so only now figured out about these constraints
12:08	alexyakushev_	gtrak: There ain't much to be split since it is just one macro
12:09	clgv	does reordering clauses in core.match has an influence on the generated code?
12:09	gtrak	alexyakushev_: the right side?
12:11	mpenet	clgv: if that's like in haskell order does matter
12:11	alexyakushev_	gtrak: It might help a bit, but wouldn't solve the problem conceptually
12:11	gtrak	yea
12:11	mpenet	clgv: code size will prolly be very close though
12:11	alexyakushev_	clgv: OK, it compiles now that I moved "limit" to the top
12:11	clgv	mpenet: ah ok. I just guessed in that direction since it does with performance in logic programming ;)
12:12	alexyakushev_	Apparently the more elements there are in the clause, the lower you should put them
12:12	clgv	alexyakushev_: interesting
12:12	clgv	yeah so you got a specialization order
12:13	TimMc	That makes me sad.
12:13	alexyakushev_	I still think I'm doing something wrong
12:13	alexyakushev_	Or perhaps core.match is grossly inadequate for this exact task
12:14	clgv	alexyakushev_: maybe that documentation helps https://github.com/clojure/core.match/wiki/Understanding-the-algorithm
12:15	clgv	alexyakushev_: but your original code could be interesting for dnolen, maybe there is some bug causing the huge size
12:15	alexyakushev_	clgv: It was my initial idea to write to him directly, but he's not online
12:15	alexyakushev_	I will try to catch him later
12:16	alexyakushev_	Thank you for your help, clgv and gtrak!
12:58	CookedGryphon	alexyakushev_: that doesn't look right...
12:58	CookedGryphon	perhaps the recur is recurring to the wrong point?
13:00	alexyakushev_	CookedGryphon: Doesn't seem to be the case. The function works now that I reordered clauses, and it works correctly
13:01	nbeloglazov	alexyakushev_, I suggest to file a bug in this case.
13:02	alexyakushev_	nbeloglazov: I will, probably after I ask David whether he is aware of such problem
13:02	CookedGryphon	alexyakushev_: I'm curious, what's your rewrite and what does it generate
13:04	alexyakushev_	CookedGryphon: Now it looks like this https://www.refheap.com/65502, and macroexpanded it yields 4k loc instead of 11k in the first case
13:05	CookedGryphon	alexyakushev_: I got 790k lines when I macroexpanded and pprinted it...
13:06	CookedGryphon	but yeah, either way it's too much !
13:07	alexyakushev_	Yes, definitely looks excessive :)
13:31	AlwaysBCoding	Hey guys, I'm using datomic and getting an error message "Boot datoms cannot be altered" - I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean and can't find a single resource on google. Anyone have any insight on what it means?
13:32	cbp	AlwaysBCoding: I don't know but you can also try asking in the #datomic channel
13:32	_Pate_	how does the new cond-> macro work? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md#24-new-threading-macros
13:32	_Pate_	(cond-> 1, true inc, false (* 42), (= 2 2) (* 3)) => 6
13:33	_Pate_	why does that output 6?
13:33	cbp	_Pate_: because 1 is true
13:33	gtrak	it gets inc'd then multiplied by 3
13:34	cbp	_Pate_: and also because 2 equals 2
13:34	hyPiRion	cbp: What do you mean by 1 is true?
13:34	cbp	so it first goes through the true clause and the result of that goes through the 2 == 2 clause
13:34	_Pate_	I see, so it threads 1 through all the expr where the clause evals to true?
13:34	hyPiRion	_Pate_: yes
13:34	cbp	er I mean because true is true..
13:34	hyPiRion	ah
13:35	cbp	it's a pretty terrible example..
13:35	_Pate_	so in this case: -> 1 inc (* 3) => 6
13:35	_Pate_	coool
13:36	_Pate_	I can't count the amount of verbose code I have written to conditionally execute stuff like that.
13:36	AlwaysBCoding	cbp: Is there a #datomic channel?
13:36	cbp	AlwaysBCoding: yes
13:49	sdegutis	Hi. You have (def m {"a" "y", "b" "z"}) and you want to use it to turn "bad" into "zyd". How would you do this?
13:51	cbp	sdegutis: replace?
13:52	sdegutis	Ahh yes, great! Thanks!
13:52	sdegutis	Hmm no wait, that seems wrong, completely wrong.
13:53	ToxicFrog	,(def m {"a" "y" "b" "z"}) (->> "bad" (map str) (replace m) (apply str))
13:53	clojurebot	#'sandbox/m
13:53	sdegutis	clojure.core/replace works on a collection, but I'm working with strings.
13:53	ToxicFrog	,(->> "bad" (map str) (replace m) (apply str))
13:54	clojurebot	"zyd"
13:54	ToxicFrog	sdegutis: strings are ordered collections of chars.
13:54	sdegutis	Ah yes, I see what you mean.
13:54	ToxicFrog	There's probably a better way to do it than what I just did
13:54	sdegutis	Surely there is a name for the error I made by now.. I used too specific a dataset and didn't convey how general I meant it to be.
13:54	ToxicFrog	There definitely is if you can fill your map with chars rather than single-char strings; that lets you drop the (map str)
13:54	sdegutis	I'm dealing with any-length strings anywhere a string is mentioned here.
13:55	ToxicFrog	Oh, so m might be { "foo" "FOO" "bar" "
13:55	ToxicFrog	Oh, so m might be { "foo" "FOO" "bar" "BAR" }\
13:55	ToxicFrog	?
13:55	sdegutis	Right.
13:55	sdegutis	Well, except that might imply that I only want capitalization ;)
13:55	TimMc	sdegutis: The question is still underspecified. What about conflicts?
13:55	sdegutis	Thus leading to another round of me clarifying :D
13:56	TimMc	(Overlaps.)
13:56	gtrak	now it's sounding like you want a lexer
13:56	sdegutis	TimMc: there won't be any
13:56	TimMc	sdegutis: Then use reduce and .replace
13:56	sdegutis	The pattern I've used before is to make a custom function for use with reduce, which takes [string [key val]] as its args, and does whatever work (this time being clojure.string/replace) to return a new [string] for use as the first argument in the next (reduce) call.
13:57	_Pate_	I'm looking for a great image that depicts structural sharing in Clojure's memory model for an intro talk I'm doing, preferably vector-based image (like SVG). Any ideas?
13:57	sdegutis	I've just used that pattern enough times, and it's so strange looking, that I figure there surely must be a better way.
13:57	justin_smith	_eric: Frozenlock: regarding something you guys were taling about a while back
13:57	justin_smith	,(apply + 1 '(2 3 4))
13:57	clojurebot	10
13:58	justin_smith	you don't need cons to use apply on a single element and a collection at the same time
13:58	sdegutis	erc-hl-nicks is great btw
13:58	gtrak	_Pate_: people always use this one: http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/~jeffe/teaching/datastructures/Fig/clojure-trees.png
13:59	gtrak	at least it seems really familiar
13:59	_Pate_	thank you! I just had a crummy version of that. This is a better resolution.
13:59	clgv	_Pate_: easily replicatable via LaTeX/TikZ ;)
14:00	Frozenlock	justin_smith: mind blown
14:00	cbp	sdegutis: I would probably just use a loop, a stringbuilder (or two) and a replacements map
14:00	arrdem	-! is for stm. so why the hell does 1.6 have assoc! and soforth as part of the transient system.
14:01	gtrak	! is for dangerous! or mutable!
14:01	arrdem	if -! is suddenly for side-effect annotation I'm gonna be moderately annoyed
14:01	cbp	I just used ! for ..
14:01	cbp	yeah
14:01	gtrak	arrdem: see: reset!
14:01	sdegutis	Great, this works, albeit a little unreadable: (reduce (fn [s [k v]] (str/replace s (format "[%s]" k) v)) url config)
14:01	arrdem	gtrak: but that's an STM op
14:01	gtrak	reset! works on atoms
14:01	arrdem	gtrak: so far all the -!s are stm ops
14:02	gtrak	which aren't stm?
14:02	Bronsa	arrdem: isn't ! used for ops that are not safe to be used inside a dosync?
14:02	gtrak	also set! works on vars and java fields
14:02	iwilcox	I've wondered about using ! for "I generate random numbers", but I'm super-new here.
14:02	cbp	oh yeah I remember Bronsa's statement now
14:02	cbp	for non
14:03	gtrak	set-validator! 'Sets the validator-fn for a var/ref/agent/atom'
14:03	arrdem	Bronsa: maybe. that's a more sane definition if that's the case
14:03	clgv	arrdem: assoc! is as old as transients and nothing new in 1.6 ;)
14:03	arrdem	brb flipping my desk
14:03	clgv	,(meta #'assoc)
14:03	Bronsa	given that side-effecting ops are implicitly not safe to be used within a transaction that would make sense
14:03	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name assoc, :arglists ([map key val] [map key val & kvs]), :column 1, :added "1.0", ...}
14:03	clgv	,(meta #'assoc!)
14:03	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name assoc!, :arglists ([coll key val] [coll key val & kvs]), :column 1, :added "1.1", ...}
14:04	clgv	ah clojure 1.1^^
14:04	cbp	I have a terrible memory..
14:04	gtrak	! means that, * means a more primitive version of the non-*, ' means I don't know what.
14:05	justin_smith	dsrx: regarding what you and scottj were talking about, there is string-edit-at-point which takes the current string the point is inside, and opens it in a secondary buffer for unescaped editing, and C-c C-c then insterts the edited version, escaped, back into the string
14:05	gtrak	if I'm doing math it would mean the next step, like x and x'
14:05	cbp	idempotent that's the word
14:06	cbp	thank you based google
14:06	gtrak	one time I used \| in place of a / and my coworkers flipped out
14:06	arrdem	gtrak: in a symbol name?
14:06	gtrak	heh, yes
14:07	arrdem	haha
14:07	gtrak	(def some-domainmodel-ns\|Constructor)
14:07	gtrak	or maybe it was even (def some-domainmodel-ns\|->Constructor)
14:07	gtrak	to mirror the records stuff
14:10	TimMc	☃ on the end of a symbol means congratulations, you are probably using the correct character set on your computer!
14:12	justin_smith	🏂 <- slightly harder mode of the above
14:12	arrdem	TimMc: dat snowman...
14:12	arrdem	justin_smith: you broke emacs :c
14:13	justin_smith	snowboarder
14:13	arrdem	justin_smith: correctly identified as snowboarder, but no glyph
14:13	justin_smith	I was gonna say, M-x describe-char
14:14	justin_smith	💩 at the end of a name means "this is terrible and should not exist"
14:14	arrdem	I'll use λ in my comments... but utf8 fn names just don't buy a lot IMO
14:14	arrdem	some days I just have to break out vim and edit from not a real editor :c
14:17	Bronsa	gtrak: at some point in a tools.analzyer pass I had pass, pass*, -pass and pass'
14:17	Bronsa	I just suck at naming
14:17	gtrak	nice
14:18	gtrak	arbitrary-construct1,2,3
14:18	arrdem	Bronsa: so long as you don't have f, f', f'', f''' and soforth...
14:18	Bronsa	well now that you mention it.. https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm/utils.clj#L216-L221
14:19	arrdem	I suppose to go along with my bro encoding I should build a tools.analyzer pass to rewrite all symbols into ([bB]ro)*...
14:20	arrdem	Bronsa: haha... I've definitely done (let [a .., a₀ ..., a₁ ...] ..)
14:20	arrdem	subscripts++
14:20	justin_smith	,(let [x¹ 4 x² 1 x³ 2] (* x³ (+ x² x¹)))
14:20	clojurebot	10
14:20	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
14:20	lazybot	⇒ 29
14:21	arrdem	I need to build a latex frontend for expresso...
14:22	TimMc	justin_smith: Was that a non-BMP character?
14:22	justin_smith	¹ <- "SUPERSCRIPT ONE"
14:22	justin_smith	works through "... NINE"
14:22	TimMc	No, 10 minutes ago.
14:22	justin_smith	⁰works two
14:23	justin_smith	oh, the snowboarder? I dunno, depends on your font support I guess?
14:24	justin_smith	TimMc: wait, I misunderstood that question
14:24	justin_smith	yeah, I think that is definitely non-bmp
14:26	justin_smith	TimMc: it is in the block "miscellaneous symbols and pictographs"
14:27	justin_smith	inserted via M-x insert-char
14:41	mlb-	is there a well known way to shell out from Clojure, that work well on Windows? My google-fu has only revealed clojure.java.shell and clj-commons-exec
14:42	justin_smith	conch is decent
14:42	justin_smith	https://github.com/Raynes/conch
14:42	justin_smith	it has a nicer API than the other stuff, using process-builder which is nice and very powerful
14:48	mlb-	thanks, will check out =]
14:50	pyrtsa	Do people have experiences with the Quartzite library here? Any idea why it requires a specific type (created e.g. with the defjob macro) to define jobs? Why not just an IFn?
14:52	sdegutis	What's that site that lets you search for Clojure code snippets? I looked and looked and can't find it.
14:53	justin_smith	pyrtsa: I'd blame the underlying java lib http://quartz-scheduler.org/
14:54	pyrtsa	justin_smith: I can believe that. But why wouldn't Quartzite just define a generic subtype of org.quartz.Job that helds a user-defined Clojure function?
14:54	pyrtsa	http://clojurequartz.info/articles/jobs.html
14:55	justin_smith	from that page "Unfortunately, due to certain Quartz implementation details and the way Clojure loads generated classes, many approaches to using functions do not work."
14:56	pyrtsa	Incredible.
14:56	pyrtsa	Okay, thanks.
14:57	sdegutis	Ah yes! It's http://getclojure.org/
14:59	justin_smith	sdegutis: (fn [] (loop [i (int 0)] (recur nil))) -- what is this supposed to be exemplary of? cargo cult spin loop?
15:02	cbp	hahah (loop [] (let [recur 5] recur))
15:03	justin_smith	at least that demonstrates something useful about clojure's binding rules
15:21	alew	pyrtsa: Immutant uses quartz underneath for scheduling and actually allows you to specify arbitrary functions
15:21	alew	pyrtsa: without doing that record stuff
15:21	alew	pyrtsa: http://immutant.org/tutorials/jobs/index.html
15:23	alew	pyrtsa: Not that you would want to pull all of immutant in for just scheduling, but it shows that it's possible
16:04	clojure-user	a
16:05	clojure-user	test
16:05	asd	Hi clojure user
16:07	clgv	what are the common pitfalls when you use a LinkedBlockingQueue in a multi producer single consumer scenario?
16:07	clgv	I seem to be loosing items in that queue
16:08	clgv	llasram: to what I said?
16:08	llasram	That you'd be losing items
16:08	llasram	Only pitfall I can think of is that it's unbounded unless you provide one
16:11	clgv	well running the whole thing in log level trace now
16:11	TimMc	I wonder what happens if you create 2 queues, fill one with stuff, and then try to drain each to the other.
16:13	Raynes	TimMc: http://i.imgur.com/5sQO8hJ.jpg
16:13	Raynes	WARNING: Snake ^
16:13	tcrawley	pyrtsa: Immutant 2 will let you use quartz outside of the container, so you can just bring in that lib
16:13	TimMc	hee
16:14	tcrawley	and using functions with quartz means you can't use a JobStore
16:15	clojure-user	hello
16:17	clgv	llasram: I use a combination of "take" and "poll" to block until there are elements in the queue and then take as much as there are
16:18	clgv	and I do not think that I observed that problem in the past...
16:23	edw	Has anyone yet written an EDN parser in elisp? It's beginning to look like the world needs such a thing, and I may heed the call...
16:24	TimMc	Raynes: I think it's "smart" enough to only drain the number of elements that were in the queue when draining started.
16:25	TimMc	https://www.refheap.com/65637
17:02	sdegutis	I just realized that you can't do further destructuring inside {:keys [...]}
17:04	sdegutis	I just kind of expected it allowed you to destructure infinitely deep.
17:04	brehaut	really?
17:05	justin_smith	sdegutis: but of course :keys is redundant, just more concise
17:05	brehaut	that would just make the keys, syms, strs shorthands a more complicated way of not usign those shorthands
17:05	justin_smith	regular destructuring goes very deep (arbitrarily deep?)
17:05	brehaut	yes
17:06	abp	sdegutis: how should that work? maps aren't positiional so you need some names to bind.. would basically be like what you can always do
17:07	TimMc	sdegutis: You don't have to list everything in :keys anyhow.
17:11	TimMc	&(let [{:keys [a b], [c] :c} {:a 1, :b 2, :c [3 4 5]}] [a b c])
17:11	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
17:12	trap_exit	is (into {} (map side-effect lst)) lazy or not lazy ?
17:13	Bronsa	not lazy
17:13	brehaut	easy way to check ;)
17:13	brehaut	,(into {} (range))
17:13	trap_exit	how do I test?
17:13	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long {:instance 0}>
17:13	brehaut	,(into {} (map + (range)))
17:13	trap_exit	,(into {} (map (fn [x] x) (range)))
17:13	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long {:instance 0}>
17:13	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long {:instance 0}>
17:13	brehaut	oh duh
17:13	brehaut	,(into [] (range))
17:13	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
17:13	trap_exit	well wait
17:14	trap_exit	,( ... ) forces it to be printed, which is what causes it to be not lazy
17:14	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed member expression, expecting (.member target ...)>
17:14	trap_exit	,(range)
17:14	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
17:14	Bronsa	trap_exit: no, into is not lazy
17:14	trap_exit	,(let [a (into {} (map vector (range) (range)))] 23)
17:14	brehaut	trap_exit: as you can see above, clojurebot has its print vars set so that it wont print an infinite sequence so no, it wont realize it all
17:15	TimMc	trap_exit: into walks the entire collection eagerly
17:15	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:15	sdegutis	TimMc: fantabulous
17:16	trap_exit	Bronsa, brehaut, TimMc: I believe you now
17:17	trap_exit	thanks!
17:17	trap_exit	if we were in dogecoin, I'd tip you 10 dogecoins
17:18	brehaut	trap_exit: the other thing to think about is that into is filling a strict datastructure; those structures have no way of representing laziness so its intrinsicly going to be a strict operation
17:18	Bronsa	trap_exit: another way to notice that that was eager: the only sequences that preserve lazyness are lazyseqs and cons, there's no lazy map/vector/set in clojure
17:18	TimMc	trap_exit: One of the bots has a karma module. :-P
17:18	Bronsa	trap_exit: also, if the docstring doesn't say "returns a lazy sequence" then the operation is not lazy :)
17:19	trap_exit	hmm, wait, so are assoc/dissoc both eager ?
17:19	Bronsa	yes
17:19	trap_exit	hmm, for some dumbass reason, all these years I thought maps were lazy as were assoc/dissoc
17:19	trap_exit	I'm glad we clarified this up
17:29	arrdem	Bronsa: hum... how is infinite determined then...
17:30	arrdem	Bronsa: I know there are techniques for doing print bounding, but it seems like proving the infinite property of a lazy sequence is hard
17:31	Bronsa	arrdem: what do you mean? there's no way in clojure to determine if a non-realized lazy-seq is infinite
17:31	arrdem	oh. sorry. that was brehaut not you.
17:31	Bronsa	np
17:31	arrdem	"clojurebot has its print vars set so that it wont print an infinite sequence ..."
17:32	justin_smith	arrdem: all that means is that he only prints the first N elements
17:32	justin_smith	thus never attempting to realize an infinite sequence
17:33	justin_smith	,(clojure.repl/doc print-length)
17:33	Bronsa	he was talking about print-lenght/print-level
17:33	arrdem	justin_smith: yeah I knew about that
17:33	Bronsa	print-lenght alone shouldn't suffice. suppose you have a vector with one element of infinitely nested vectors
17:35	clojurebot	"; print-length controls how many items of each collection the printer will print. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum number of items of each collection to print. If a collection contains more items, the printer will print items up to the limit followed by '...' to represent the remaining items. The root binding is...
17:35	justin_smith	,(clojure.repl/doc print-level)
17:35	clojurebot	"; print-level controls how many levels deep the printer will print nested objects. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum level to print. Each argument to print is at level 0; if an argument is a collection, its items are at level 1; and so on. If an object is a collection and is at a level greater than or equal to th...
17:35	Bronsa	that was about time clojurebot
17:36	cbp	you can just (doc ..) :P
17:36	cbp	(doc inc)
17:36	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
17:37	TimMc	,(let [v [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]] (aset (.tail v) 0 v) v)
17:37	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[# 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...] 2 3 4 5 ...]
17:37	arrdem	lolz
17:37	TimMc	^ That demonstrates both print-length and print-level.
17:37	Bronsa	TimMc: don't do that ever again plz
17:37	TimMc	haha
17:38	arrdem	(inc TimMc)
17:38	lazybot	⇒ 56
17:38	trap_exit	(inc TimMc)
17:38	lazybot	⇒ 57
17:38	trap_exit	(int ardem)
17:38	TimMc	I can't believe .tail got exposed in 1.6. Just awful.
17:39	arrdem	TimMc: why?
17:39	TimMc	Shenanigans.
17:39	arrdem	clearly demonstrated above, got it...
17:40	arrdem	that you can do silly things with it I don't consider much of a STL bug tho.
17:40	TimMc	Although... I guess it's not like you could trust PV before.
17:41	TimMc	&(let [a (object-array 1) v (vec a)] (aset a 0 v) v)
17:41	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
17:41	TimMc	hum
17:41	arrdem	you've also got the self-referential promise...
17:42	TimMc	I don't have a problem with that, actually.
17:42	Bronsa	,(let [a (object-array 1) v (vec a)] (aset a 0 v) v)
17:42	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]
17:42	Bronsa	looks like lazybot forgot about print-level
17:43	rasmusto	,[[[[[#]]]]]
17:43	Bronsa	TimMc: there's to be said that the doc for `vec` explicitely states that the array should not be modified
17:47	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
17:47	rasmusto	(inc clojurebot)
17:47	lazybot	⇒ 36
17:54	TimMc	Bronsa: Huh! Looks like that warning came in on 1.5.0.
17:58	hyPiRion	TimMc: I love it, that feature is the best thing ever
17:59	hyPiRion	I don't know if I can use it in Swearjure though
18:04	TimMc	,(let [v [0 0]] (aset (.tail v) 0 v) (aset (.tail v) 1 v) v) ;; sorry Bronsa
18:04	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]] [[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]]] [[[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]] [[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]]]] [[[[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]] [[[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]] [[[# #] [# #]] [[# #] [# #]]]]] [[[[[# #] [# #]...
18:05	Bronsa	:(
18:10	TimMc	Bronsa: I couldn't take you seriously after you used aset up there as well. :-P
18:10	TimMc	and isn't it a thing of beauty?
18:11	Anderkent	Bronsa: missed an opportunity to use [# #] as the emote there
18:12	rasmusto	''[# #]
18:12	Bronsa	I was just thinkint that there must be a way to use this to make some cool ascii art
18:24	TEttinger	Bronsa: heh. just / and \, screenshotted and areas filled: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/AngleMazeColorful.png
18:28	dsrx	oh whoa, 1.6.0 was released?
18:28	justin_smith	is it stable? if so time to update the room topic
18:29	Averell	there needs to be consensus by top analysts
18:29	brehaut	justin_smith: it is stable, but uh, probably all the ops are at clojure/west :P
18:33	rlb	assume I'm missing something obvious -- "lein new app foo; cd foo; lein uberjar; java -jar target/uberjar/foo-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT.jar" fails with NoClassDefFoundError, but the project.clj has a :main, and core.clj has a gen-class.
18:47	mikerod	Can a Symbol only `resolve` to nil, a Var, or a Class?
18:47	Pupeno	I seem to able to run lein new luminus myapp and it works... how do I make sure I have the latest version of that luminus plug in or whatever it is that makes that possible?
18:48	justin_smith	lein new should find the latest
18:50	Pupeno	justin_smith: so, everytime I run lein new it checks for updates?
18:51	technomancy	Pupeno: it checks once every 24h
18:51	Pupeno	Cool.
18:58	storme	hi #clojure, I'm new an learning... what's the best way to iterate over a vector, pull out data from it, and add each iteration of data to a new vector?
18:58	storme	would a recursive loop work?
18:59	justin_smith	mapv?
18:59	justin_smith	,(mapv + [0 1 2 44])
18:59	clojurebot	[0 1 2 44]
18:59	justin_smith	,(mapv inc [0 1 2 44]) ; better example
18:59	clojurebot	[1 2 3 45]
19:00	storme	justin_smith: that just might work
19:00	storme	thanks!
19:01	justin_smith	mind you if the output doesn't need to be a vector, and may benefit from laziness, then map is better than mapv
19:01	Pupeno	(map inc [1 2 3])
19:01	Pupeno	,(map inc [1 2 3])
19:01	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
19:01	Pupeno	Ah.
19:01	Pupeno	Of course.
19:02	storme	nice
19:02	justin_smith	mapv is not lazy, it really depends on which data structure is better
19:02	storme	but I plan on iterating over the new vector for something else
19:02	justin_smith	well, that's neither here nor there as far as laziness is concerned
19:02	justin_smith	in fact laziness can speed that up by doing both maps in one go
19:03	storme	sorry still new to clojure coming from ruby, could you eli5 laziness?
19:03	justin_smith	,(do (mapv print (range 5)))
19:03	clojurebot	01234[nil nil nil nil nil]
19:03	rasmusto	,(take 10 (range))
19:03	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
19:03	justin_smith	,(do (map print (range 5)))
19:03	clojurebot	(01234nil nil nil nil nil)
19:04	justin_smith	hmm, that will show a difference with a larger range argument in your repl
19:04	justin_smith	oh wait
19:04	justin_smith	,(do (map print (range 5)) nil)
19:04	clojurebot	nil
19:04	justin_smith	,(do (mapv print (range 5)) nil)
19:04	clojurebot	01234
19:04	justin_smith	that's the difference
19:04	justin_smith	the printing of the result of print was forcing it :)
19:05	justin_smith	with laziness, if you don't use the result, no calculations are made
19:05	storme	ah
19:05	storme	id like to return the result
19:05	gfredericks	Bronsa: ping
19:05	justin_smith	and once you use it, it is calculated (it is slightly more complex than this given chunking for example, but that's the basic)
19:05	storme	so another function can evaluate over it
19:05	justin_smith	right, but that can be lazy or non lazy
19:05	Bronsa	mikerod: I can't think of anything else
19:05	Bronsa	gfredericks: pong
19:06	justin_smith	the question is does it need to be evaluated immediately, or can you wait until the value is used
19:06	Bronsa	technomancy: time to update the topic :)
19:06	justin_smith	if you can wait, laziness means the map need only walk the input once, applying both functions
19:06	mikerod	Bronsa: me neither
19:07	gfredericks	Bronsa: I'm sitting here w/ tbaldridge trying to debug an NPE thrown by tools.analyzer.jvm when using my lib on a codebase with a deftype
19:07	gfredericks	github.com/fredericksgary/clj-usage-graph
19:07	justin_smith	storme: also, it allows a style of programming where you describe how a long (or even infinite) lazy sequence is constructed, and use as much of it as you need at runtime
19:07	justin_smith	this can often replace a mutable state with walking over a lazy structure
19:08	Bronsa	gfredericks: one sec
19:10	Bronsa	gfredericks: I see one obvious problem with that code but I don't know if that's the culprit for this bug
19:10	storme	justin_smith: okay I think I understand
19:10	storme	thanks :)
19:10	justin_smith	np
19:10	Bronsa	gfredericks: actually two problems
19:11	Bronsa	gfredericks: 1- you're using the same env for every analyze
19:11	justin_smith	storme: example of state / lazy seq: a lazy seq of the lines in a file, you get the "next line" as the next element in the lazy seq, and you simple stop taking new items in order to stop reading (instead of putting current-line in some stateful container that mutates)
19:11	Bronsa	gfredericks: unfortunately that won't do it, you need to use a new empty-env for every top-level form since namespaces might mutate at runtime
19:12	gfredericks	Bronsa: oh interesting
19:12	gfredericks	I assumed since it was a PHM it was a value
19:12	Bronsa	gfredericks: the other problem is that you're analyzing the whole file but not evaluating the form you're evaluating as you go
19:12	Bronsa	you're analyzing*
19:12	Bronsa	jvm.tools.analyzer did that implicitely I believe
19:12	gfredericks	so I should evaluate each form before or after analying?
19:13	Bronsa	gfredericks: I helped ambrosebs writing an analyze-ns function, one sec
19:14	Bronsa	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/tools-analyzer/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/analyze_clj.clj
19:14	Bronsa	gfredericks: the env is a value, but empty-env recreates it every time you invoke it
19:15	gfredericks	Bronsa: why would a value need to be recreated?
19:16	Bronsa	gfredericks: suppose you are analyzing (do (intern 'foo) foo)
19:17	Bronsa	if you 1- don't eval the first form after analysis
19:17	Bronsa	2- don't refresh the environment to include the newly created var in the :namespaces atom
19:18	Bronsa	analyzing the second form will fail
19:21	Bronsa	gfredericks: this is a limitation inherent of how clojure works, cljs doesn't have this problems since it lacks runtime reified namespaces & "proper" macros
19:21	gfredericks	Bronsa: okay, thanks; my battery's dying so I have to go, but I'll come back to this
19:21	Bronsa	gfredericks: I will put an analyze-ns function in t.a.j in the next days btw
19:25	Bronsa	gfredericks: also c.t.a.ast already has a lazy `nodes`
19:42	Pupeno	Is there a way for lein to show which jars can be upgraded to a new version?
19:43	bob2_	Pupeno, lein ancient?
19:44	Pupeno	bob2_: I got "'ancient' is not a task. See 'lein help'."
19:46	bob2_	Pupeno, you'd need to install the lein ancient plugin, I mean
20:04	Bronsa	gfredericks: I just added analyze+eval that does the right thing for you, no need to rebuild the env https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm.clj#L462-L485
20:34	ivan	very pleasantly surprised to see all the talks up this early https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZdCLR02grLp__wRg5OTavVj4wefg69hM&feature=c4-feed-u
20:34	cbp	^
20:37	Frozenlock	There goes my productivity. Thanks ivan :p
20:38	hfaafb	best clojure web app cloud hosting go
20:39	ivan	any linux server?
20:40	ivan	at which point you're trading off normal bandwidth/cpu/memory/disk requirements
20:40	ivan	and network reliability and price
20:42	bob2	heroku is pretty convenient
20:47	kras	ivan: glad to see instaparse video in the list
21:05	kras	Any traditional Lex/Yacc implementation in clojure? like PLY in python?
21:07	brehaut	i dont think anyone has been particularly keen; things like instaparse or perhaps the antlr bindings are more popular
21:07	brehaut	you can of course just use the java lex and yacc
21:09	kras	I have been using antlr but found it difficult since I don't completely understand Java
21:09	kras	probably I am the only one using clojure without a background in Java :-)
21:09	brehaut	unlikely
21:10	brehaut	a lot of people have come to clojure from python and ruby
21:10	brehaut	but it is worth learning at least the basics of java
21:10	kras	Thats good to know
21:10	brehaut	as interop is idiomatic
21:10	Frozenlock	kras: My only background before clojure was emacs lisp :-p
21:16	kras	Java seems to be very verbose unfortunately :-(
21:17	kras	Found a clojure wrapper for antlr called clj-antlr but again its a work in progress
21:17	hons	kras: if you already know a language wich C-ish syntax and some OOP language then Java is very easy to pick up
21:17	brehaut	looking at clj-antlr it doesnt seem like you need much java knowledge at all
21:18	arrdem	Why use clj-antlr.. we have instaparse...
21:18	brehaut	arrdem: speeeeed
21:18	brehaut	arrdem: and existing grammers
21:18	kras	yes speed
21:19	kras	antlr from my initial experiments seems to be atleast 10 times faster
21:19	arrdem	not totally shocking... but are your inputs large enough that parse time is significant?
21:19	brehaut	personally i would reach for instaparse for most small parsing tasks, and antlr for the bigger ones (larger files, or hot paths)
21:20	arrdem	brehaut: Agreed. Hence why I'm not using instaparse for my modular tools.reader rework.
21:20	kras	Yeah I have some very big files to parse and the grammar I have has several rules
21:20	brehaut	oh yeah arrdem re yesterdays discussion: seniority can shove it; interesting ideas and engaging your brain are what is important
21:20	arrdem	kras: define several....
21:21	kras	The only issue I have with clj-antlr is I do not know how to take some actions if a rule is triggered
21:22	kras	and there is not documentation yet which explains this
21:22	arrdem	brehaut: lolz. I think `Bronsa and `Raynes are the only people younger than me in here.. and both of them out experience me. I'm over it.
21:24	brehaut	arrdem: i still dont think its important
21:25	brehaut	you can be old as the hills and worked in software all your life and still be as ignorant as someone who has never seen a line of code before
21:26	patchwork	Hmm… how do I use js `===` from cljs?
21:26	brehaut	patchwork: = i think?
21:26	patchwork	Or rather, how do I test js object equality from cljs?
21:27	patchwork	I don't want to test value equality, I want reference equality
21:27	patchwork	the dirty js kind of equality
21:27	technomancy	arrdem: did you just backquote their nicks in order to fully qualify them?
21:28	patchwork	I have two references to potentially the same js object, does regular (= obj1 obj2) work for that?
21:28	kras	request to clj-antlr developers, please put some documentation in place. Its a great project and I am guessing there are lot of people like me without java background who wnat to use this
21:28	arrdem	technomancy: I backquoted in the hope of not notifying them :P
21:28	brehaut	patchwork: do you know about https://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html ?
21:28	technomancy	arrdem: oh, I thought maybe you intended to resolve to bronsa.it and raynes.me or something
21:28	brehaut	(not that i know if its there or note but handy)
21:29	patchwork	brehaut: Yeah that has a lot of good comparisons
21:29	patchwork	In there equality is not the same between cljs and js
21:29	brehaut	patchwork: maybe it doesnt want you to ;)
21:30	technomancy	.us is overrated
21:30	brehaut	not as overated as .shirts
21:30	brehaut	or .drycleaning
21:33	patchwork	brehaut: That is probably true, though annoying in this case
21:33	arrdem	technomancy: says the only person I know with a .us domain :P
21:36	brehaut	that sounds like a qualification to me
21:38	ddellacosta	.to is cool
21:42	Raynes	I own raynes.sexy.
21:43	Raynes	I'm working on setting up a new blog, wanted to point that at it, but it'll inevitably be deemed inappropriate.
21:43	Raynes	Need to find some use for it that can't be turned into a Thing™.
22:19	dissipate	i figured it out
22:20	dissipate	,(and)
22:20	clojurebot	true
22:20	dissipate	,(or)
22:20	clojurebot	nil
22:20	dissipate	i figured out why (and) is true, but i still don't get why (or) is nil. i think it should be false.
22:22	dissipate	does anyone here know why (and) evals to 'true'? :D
22:24	brehaut	presumably the same reason (*) evaluates to 1; its the identity of true
22:24	brehaut	err, of and
22:24	brehaut	variadic and ~= (reduce binary-and identity-value args)
22:24	dissipate	brehaut, right. but why does (or) evaluate to 'nil'?
22:25	brehaut	for the same reason
22:25	dissipate	brehaut, right, but why is it 'nil' and not 'false'?
22:25	brehaut	nil and false are both falsey
22:25	brehaut	and nil punning with or is an idiomatic language thing
22:26	brehaut	or is a true and falsy operation, not a true and false op.
22:26	brehaut	it would lose its defaulting behaviour otherwise
22:27	dissipate	brehaut, i see. well, mystery solved then
22:29	brehaut	the real question is why
22:29	brehaut	,(and 1 2)
22:29	clojurebot	2
22:29	brehaut	,(and 1)
22:29	clojurebot	1
22:29	brehaut	,(and)
22:29	clojurebot	true
22:29	brehaut	or is actually the more consistent version
22:30	dissipate	,(or 1 2
22:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
22:30	dissipate	,(or 1 2)
22:30	clojurebot	1
22:31	brehaut	or returns the first truthy thing, or nil (nothing)
22:31	brehaut	except in the circumstance where a false is present and no truthy thing is present
22:31	dissipate	brehaut, where is the inconsistency?
22:32	brehaut	or will return nil if all its expressions evaluate to nil
22:32	brehaut	and returns the last expression if they are all truthy
22:33	dissipate	brehaut, you mean if all the expressions evaluate to nill or false?
22:33	brehaut	correct
22:33	dissipate	,(or false false true)
22:33	clojurebot	true
22:33	dissipate	,(or false false)
22:33	clojurebot	false
22:33	dissipate	hmm, that's somewhat inconsistent
22:33	dissipate	why not nil?
22:34	brehaut	sort of
22:34	brehaut	because and and or are both weird in the presence of actual true and false
22:34	brehaut	,(and 1 2 false)
22:34	clojurebot	false
22:34	brehaut	,(and 1 2 3)
22:34	clojurebot	3
22:34	brehaut	,(and 1 2 nil)
22:34	dissipate	brehaut, why?
22:34	clojurebot	nil
22:34	brehaut	i presume its some kind of weird polymorphism
22:35	brehaut	if you are dealing with truth values you probably want truth values back
22:35	brehaut	otherwise you are dealing with objects and want objects back
22:35	brehaut	(and nil is the absense of an object)
22:35	dissipate	brehaut, is it the case that only predicate functions should return 'true' or 'false'?
22:35	dissipate	oh heck no. i don't want objects. maybe data structures, not objects
22:36	brehaut	its the case that predicates should return only true or false, but other functions that are not predicates may reasonably return them too
22:36	brehaut	what do you think a datastructure is?
22:36	dissipate	brehaut, are you referring to what it is in Java or in the theoretical sense?
22:36	brehaut	both
22:36	dissipate	brehaut, what non-predicate function should return true or false?
22:37	brehaut	how about get
22:37	brehaut	or first
22:37	brehaut	,(first (repeat true))
22:37	clojurebot	true
22:37	dissipate	brehaut, yeah, i see your point there. if you are iterating over true or false themselves
22:37	technomancy	https://lein-survey-2014.herokuapp.com <- this year's edition of the lein survey is out
22:38	technomancy	please fill it in if you use leiningen
22:38	brehaut	technomancy: are you not westing this year?
22:38	dissipate	brehaut, a data structure is definitely not an object though. an object bundles functions with data. a data structure is just data.
22:38	technomancy	brehaut: sadly not
22:38	brehaut	technomancy: sorry to hear
22:39	brehaut	dissipate: a closure bundles function and data
22:39	brehaut	is that an object?
22:40	hfaafb	a map can have keys that point to both data and functions
22:41	dissipate	brehaut, no, a closure is a function that has access to data
22:41	brehaut	dissipate: you need to get your zen on then
22:41	brehaut	closures and objects are isomorphic to each other
22:41	brehaut	there is nothing inherently evil about objects
22:42	brehaut	merely the default statefulness people use in objects
22:42	brehaut	(let [a (atom 1)] (fn [] (swap! a inc)))
22:43	dissipate	brehaut, you do have a point. in Python, an object is just a dictionary with special stuff in it.
22:43	brehaut	is exactly as dangerous and problematic as any other object with statefulness
22:44	dissipate	brehaut, i'm thinking more along the lines of classes with inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation. the biggest fail in software ever.
22:44	brehaut	inheritance sure, encapsulation reasonable case. polymorphism definately not a fail
22:45	brehaut	in spite of technomancy’s best efforts polymorphism is a fundamental part of clojure
22:45	technomancy	I don't mind a good polymorphic function
22:46	technomancy	(as long as it's part of clojure.core)
22:46	brehaut	:)
22:46	brehaut	a little, well considered, polymorphism goes a very long way
22:46	brehaut	not to mention higher order functions are polymorphic
22:47	talios	brehaut++
22:47	technomancy	transitive polymorphism??
22:47	lazybot	technomancy: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
22:47	brehaut	hi
22:47	brehaut	haha
22:47	talios	brehaut - if you don't use lein, what are you using?
22:48	brehaut	/ˈbriːəʊ/
22:48	brehaut	haha were did you get the idea i wasnt using lein?
22:48	talios	please not be saying Make :)
22:48	brehaut	Make‽ Make!!
22:48	brehaut	make is for kids
22:48	technomancy	I wrote a makefile the other day
22:48	brehaut	real developers use batch
22:48	talios	ewps - misread the scrollbuffer :)
22:48	brehaut	are you going to recinde my ++ now?
22:48	talios	technomancy - did it just call lein? :)
22:49	technomancy	talios: nah, it was for forth
22:49	technomancy
22:49	talios	good lord :)
22:49	technomancy	well, for a program that implements forth
22:49	talios	I'm not sure thats much better :) hah
22:49	brehaut	technomancy: apparently i have been using lein for too long “What annoys you about Leiningen?” nothing to check; have i become innerred to the problems?
22:49	talios	more hardcore for sure
22:50	dissipate	brehaut, well then clojure is doomed. might as well join the Haskellers pursuing purity at all cost.
22:50	technomancy	brehaut: I left out the "spoils me for other stuff" check, sorry
22:50	talios	dissipate: idris!!
22:50	brehaut	technomancy: lol indeed :)
22:50	brehaut	technomancy: seriously though, its been in public since 2009?
22:51	technomancy	brehaut: 1.0.0 was that december
22:51	technomancy	I think the `git init` happened on halloween
22:51	brehaut	it seems like it shouldnt be that long ago
22:51	talios	<oldname> i remember a time before leiningen - and that time was clojure-maven-plugin :) oh wait, still is.
22:52	talios	s/name/man/
22:52	brehaut	i scrabbled stuff together with bash scripts :P
22:52	arrdem	talios: typically kicking your hands doesn't improve your touch typing
22:52	brehaut	none of this maven nonsense
22:53	talios	arrdem - true true. maybe that's the problem.
22:54	dissipate	brehaut, i want none of this Java nonsense. i'm switching to Arc
22:55	brehaut	if you wanted non of java, clojure was the wrong choice
22:59	dissipate	brehaut, how about clojure on the GHC?
22:59	brehaut	technomancy: this forth, did you day its running _on_ your keyboard?
23:00	brehaut	s/day/say/
23:00	brehaut	apparently talios isnt the only one who cant type today. i blame the late hour
23:00	technomancy	brehaut: not yet
23:00	technomancy	brehaut: I don't have conditionals implemented yet
23:00	brehaut	yet
23:00	technomancy	well
23:00	brehaut	hah
23:00	technomancy	I have if, but not endif
23:01	talios	dissipate - how about newlisp?
23:01	technomancy	which makes things awkward
23:01	dissipate	technomancy, why are you implementing Forth?
23:01	technomancy	dissipate: because my keyboard firmware is currently written in C
23:02	technomancy	I want to hack it, but I don't like programming in languages that aren't interactive
23:02	dissipate	technomancy, interesting
23:02	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/orestes https://github.com/technomancy/atreus
23:03	dissipate	talios, how big is the library for newlisp? i'm guessing it is pretty small.
23:03	brehaut	technomancy: every time you name a project i feel like i am underread
23:03	technomancy	brehaut: you're in luck; these are both named from the same book
23:04	brehaut	i feel like i should recognise this; the former is some relation to agamemmnon right?
23:04	talios	dissipate - no idea, small I think. I only came across it a few months back and only briefly looked at it.
23:04	technomancy	brehaut: yeah
23:04	technomancy	both are, actually
23:04	brehaut	both parents?
23:04	technomancy	no, son and grandfather
23:04	brehaut	ah
23:04	technomancy	atreus is where we get atriedes from Dune
23:05	brehaut	oh true
23:05	brehaut	presumably also atreus from myst
23:05	technomancy	oh yeah
23:05	technomancy	the father?
23:05	brehaut	i think so yeah
23:06	technomancy	cool; I had forgotten that
23:06	brehaut	acenar and something are the sons?
23:06	technomancy	sirrius
23:06	brehaut	thats right
23:06	brehaut	i need to play riven
23:06	technomancy	it's pretty good
23:06	technomancy	I didn't get into the third one, but I didn't give it much of a chance
23:07	arrdem	technomancy: so what you're telling me is that when I try and do an embedded Clojure compiler, it's gonna be codenamed Corrino....
23:07	tmciver	I just finisehd playing realMyst. Not bad but the 3D graphics look like they're from 10 years ago.
23:07	dissipate	talios, same problem that Graham has with his Arc language: not enough libs
23:07	brehaut	tmciver: yeah i only played realMyst a couple of years ago and frankly only look 10 years old is an improvement ;)
23:07	tmciver	I think the names were Atrus, Sirrus and Achenar.
23:07	technomancy	arrdem: you could do Ordos
23:08	technomancy	tmciver: oh, right. close enough.
23:08	brehaut	dissipate: i wonder how clojure got all libs so quickly? surely its not all this java stuff we can leverage for free…
23:09	tmciver	I was dissappointed by the 'new' Rime age.
23:09	brehaut	tmciver: the little snow place ?
23:09	tmciver	brehaut: yup
23:09	brehaut	i wasnt expecting a real age so i wasnt too disappointed
23:09	brehaut	but i had hoped it would have a bit more story in it
23:10	dissipate	brehaut, but there is actually a big cost there. there is little incentive to write enough native libs to ever escape the JVM.
23:10	tmciver	Now I'm going to have to play Riven . . . again . . . for like the fourth time.
23:10	brehaut	tmciver: sorry man
23:11	brehaut	dissipate: every tradeoff comes with costs and benefits. news at 11?
23:11	dissipate	brehaut, the goal is to eventually ditch the JVM, right?
23:11	brehaut	no
23:12	brehaut	the jvm is a serious advantage
23:12	brehaut	its not suitedto every task but when it is it kicks a lot of arse
23:13	dissipate	brehaut, we need a lighter weight VM written in clojure itself
23:13	brehaut	dissipate: perhaps you need to go aquaint yourself with the strengths of the JVM before you make such comments
23:14	dissipate	brehaut, the startup time is horrendous. that's problem enough.
23:14	technomancy	dissipate: so target racket or something
23:14	technomancy	starting from scratch is a waste of time
23:15	dissipate	technomancy, actually, clojurescript might start dominating in the future.
23:15	arrdem	dissipate: .... or not.
23:15	brehaut	lol
23:15	technomancy	heh
23:16	dissipate	brehaut, are you saying the JVM is better than the javascript VMs?
23:16	brehaut	for all tasks? no. for many tasks? yes
23:16	technomancy	not having integers or standardized file IO is kind of a deal killer for most people
23:17	brehaut	and having a memory model designed to handle concurrency is nice to have too
23:17	dissipate	brehaut, what about Parrot VM?
23:18	brehaut	rhymes with pipe dream
23:18	dissipate	brehaut, good enough for Perl 6, right?
23:30	seangrove	~bbloom
23:30	clojurebot	bbloom is a dendrologist
23:30	seangrove	boom
23:30	brehaut	O_o
23:32	brehaut	ooooh
23:32	brehaut	~gfredericks
23:32	clojurebot	gfredericks is polluting your memory and must be destroyed
23:32	dissipate	inc clojurebot
23:33	dissipate	,(inc clojurebot)
23:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: clojurebot in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:42	TEttinger	(inc clojurebot)
23:42	lazybot	⇒ 37
23:43	zspencer	(swap! lazybot 5)
23:43	Raynes	lol
23:43	zspencer	I... I think I broke it?
23:44	dissipate	(inc clojurebot)
23:44	lazybot	⇒ 38
23:44	Raynes	zspencer: (inc ..) entirely fake.
23:44	Raynes	is entirely fake*
23:44	dissipate	,(slurp 'http://www.www.com')
23:44	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Cannot open <http://www.www.com'> as an InputStream.>
23:44	Raynes	It's parsed manually. The formatting is more of a joke than anything. No actual code is excuted there. :P
23:45	zspencer	Raynes: I figured; I was oping that maybe; just maybe....
23:47	skelternet	I've encountered something I do not understand. I cannot seem to pprint an instance of java.util.GregorianCalendar
23:47	skelternet	I get an arityException
23:49	beamso	same
23:49	beamso	print works though
23:50	skelternet	nice to have company. think it's a bug?
23:51	skelternet	do I need to write a new writer function?