#clojure – 2014-03-24

2014-03-24

00:05	brehaut	is there a relational way to use clojure hierarchies with core.logic ?
00:05	brehaut	(ie, without having to step down to project)
00:06	brehaut	or should i just encode those hierarchy relationships with core.logic relations?
01:11	muhoo	any ideas about heroku breakage? https://www.refheap.com/64566
02:50	cstacy	why am I getting “Unable to resolve symbol: subset? in this context”
02:50	cstacy	It seems like none of the set functions are defined (except for ‘set’)?
02:53	cstacy	(subset? (set '(a)) (set '(a b c))) => Unable to resolve symbol: subset? in this context, ;; nrepl.el 0.3.0alpha (Clojure 1.5.1, nREPL 0.2.3)
02:54	cstacy	I must be making some terribly newbie mistake?
02:55	foofybaz	cstacy: " (subset? (set '(a)) (set '(a b c)))"
02:55	foofybaz	oops
02:56	foofybaz	cstacy: "(clojure.set/subset? (set '(a)) (set '(a b c)))"
02:56	cstacy	Oh it’s in some different namespace? I didn’t see that mentioned in the doc. TY
03:50	cYmen_	Morning, #clojure!
03:51	cYmen_	Is clojurescriptone still up to date or is there something better?
03:53	seanaway	It's dead. Look at Pedestal instead.
03:53	seanaway	Although, frankly, I'd recommend ClojureScript + AngularJS + Purnam
03:54	seanaway	but it depends what you're looking for :)
03:57	cYmen_	seanaway: I don't really know what I'm looking for. Why would you recommend that instead?
03:58	cYmen_	(I don't know anything about Angular and I've never even heard of Purnam.)
03:58	seanaway	Purnam makes AngularJS / ClojureScript interop a lot easier
03:59	cYmen_	And why do I want Angular?
03:59	seanaway	If you're looking for a full immersion ClojureScript web solution, Pedestal might be your thing
03:59	seanaway	If you want something more "standard" but still powerful, AngularJS is great, and it works well with ClojureScript (if you use Purnam or similar JS integration)
04:00	cYmen_	Well, right now I'm mostly interested in getting started. :)
04:00	seanaway	for example, check out http://keminglabs.com/blog/angular-cljs-weather-app/
04:00	seanaway	I think Pedestal is way too complicated for "getting started"
04:01	seanaway	but ClojureScript + AngularJS + Purnam isn't bad
04:01	seanaway	https://github.com/purnam
04:02	cYmen_	seanaway: Thanks.
04:03	cYmen_	More links to tutorials, howtos or examples are always welcome! ;)
04:03	seanaway	I'm still at the early stages myself. We're just starting to look at ClojureScript at work.
04:04	seanaway	Most of the ClojureScript stuff seems to build on solid JS stuff... Om builds on ReactJS for example
04:05	seanaway	and there's the jayq library for ClojureScript / jQuery integration
04:05	seanaway	e.g., http://squirrel.pl/blog/2012/10/16/hello-clojurescript-with-jquery/
04:07	seanaway	but it's a very fast-moving target... this blog post of mine from two years ago is horribly out of date now :( http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/getting-started-with-clojurescript-and-jquery-and-fw-1
04:09	cYmen_	seanaway: So write a new one! ^^
04:22	seanaway	Heh, yeah, as we work on our new CLJS app I probably will :)
04:23	seanaway	Off to bed. Clojure/West means getting up early (since I'm commuting into the city!)
05:25	octe	i have a nested map, like this, {:product1 {:internal {:thing1 "http://..."}}}, with multiple keys and always a url at the third level
05:26	octe	and i want to do a http request for each url and gather the result
05:26	octe	the way i do it is a nested (map) call
05:26	octe	but that feels kind of convoluted
05:26	octe	is there a better way?
05:26	augustl	octe: you could do a recursive assoc-in type thing
05:27	octe	augustl, can you explain?
05:28	augustl	octe: for each recursive call, remove from the input map and stop recursing when the input map is empty
05:29	TEttinger	are the keys always the same?
05:30	octe	TEttinger, pretty much
05:30	mpenet	you can use for
05:30	mpenet	1 binding per level
05:34	jonathanj	isn't this what get-in does?
05:35	TEttinger	get-in is for one keys vector, I think there are multiple keys that he has to get
05:36	octe	yes
05:36	octe	a for might be more clear
05:37	pyrtsa	,(for [[p {{url :thing1} :internal}] {:product1 {:internal {:thing1 "http://1"}} :product2 {:internal {:thing1 "http://2"}}}] [p url])
05:37	clojurebot	([:product2 "http://2"] [:product1 "http://1"])
05:42	jonathanj	TEttinger: aha!
05:47	sm0ke	,(defn foo [x & {:keys [c]}] (prn x c))
05:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
05:47	sm0ke	,(foo 1)
05:47	clojurebot	1 nil\n
05:47	sm0ke	(defprotocol MyPro (fooo [this x & {:keys [c]}]))
05:47	sm0ke	,(defprotocol MyPro (fooo [this x & {:keys [c]}]))
05:47	clojurebot	MyPro
05:47	clgv	sm0ke: protocol do not support varargs
05:48	sm0ke	,(defrecord MyRec [] MyPro (foo [this x & {:keys [c]}] (prn x c)))
05:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: MyPro in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
05:48	pyrtsa	sm0ke: You can associate anything to a record, regardless.
05:48	sm0ke	clgv: really :(
05:48	clgv	sm0ke: there was a discussion whether there should be a warning when "&" is used in a protocol signature
05:49	pyrtsa	Ah, nevermind.
05:49	sm0ke	clgv: so it just ignores the `&`
05:49	clgv	sm0ke: no. "&" is a parameter name in this case
05:49	sm0ke	what come on, thats not true
05:50	clgv	it is
05:50	pyrtsa	I wish protocols supported :pre and :post conditions. :/
05:50	clgv	"&" is nothing special just a symbol
05:50	sm0ke	but if you will try the example i gave above
05:51	sm0ke	(.foo (MyRec. 1 2) 1) fails but (.foo (MyRec. 1 2) 1 :c 1) works
05:51	sm0ke	that would not be the case has `&` been a symbol
05:51	sm0ke	a variable symbol i.e.
05:52	clgv	no it says CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: foo,
05:52	sm0ke	yea sorry for the extra o
05:53	clgv	(.foo (MyRec. 1 2) 1 :c 1) => IllegalArgumentException No matching method found: foo for class user.MyRec
05:53	sm0ke	what! no way
05:53	sm0ke	i am running clojure 1.4
05:53	clgv	oops lol
05:53	clgv	the "O"
05:55	clgv	sm0ke: (defprotocol IBla (foo [this, & x])) (defrecord Bla [] IBla (foo [this, & x] (println "& =" & "x =" x)))
05:55	clgv	sm0ke: (.foo (Bla.) 1 2) => & = 1 x = 2
05:55	sm0ke	whats with the ','
05:56	sm0ke	ok this is weird
05:56	sm0ke	whats is it with my example then
05:57	sm0ke	how does that ignores `&`
05:57	sm0ke	so you are saying we can destructure methods of a protocol at all! at least not reliably
05:58	sm0ke	can not*
05:59	sm0ke	ah actually it does not
06:00	sm0ke	sucks
06:01	pyrtsa	sm0ke: Just define the protocol functions with a simple set of arguments (preferably 3 or less) and use a destructuring let binding in the implementation.
06:01	pyrtsa	It's better to keep the interface simple, so to say. Destructuring is more of an implementation detail.
06:02	sm0ke	pyrtsa: that leads to bad api
06:02	sm0ke	pyrtsa: how about if user `can` pass a param, but not strictly
06:02	sm0ke	(foo 1 2 :if-i-want 3)
06:02	pyrtsa	No it doesn't. If you think a convenience is useful, then rename the protocol method into something like foo* and create another function foo that calls foo*.
06:03	sm0ke	now the user should remember if he needs foo or foo*
06:03	pyrtsa	(defprotocol Fooable (foo* [fooable x more])) (foo [x & more] (foo* fooable x more))
06:04	sm0ke	ah i see
06:04	pyrtsa	I'm suggesting a naming scheme (e.g. append * or append - to the name) to suggest the user to prefer the function without the suffix.
06:05	pyrtsa	Oh, a little typo in my code example above. But you get the idea.
06:06	sm0ke	hurm
06:06	sm0ke	just that it wont show up as a method of protocol :P
06:06	sm0ke	you cheated
06:06	pyrtsa	Just put it into the same namespace and Write Some Documentation™.
06:07	pyrtsa	Keeping the interface simple is definitely not cheating, quite the opposite. :)
06:07	sm0ke	ok this is bad idea.. see
06:08	sm0ke	for other protocol methods i will do (.bar myrec) but for this (foo myrec)
06:08	sm0ke	its probable user will do (.foo myrec)
06:08	sm0ke	and will end up with errors
06:08	pyrtsa	I'd strongly prefer the Clojure function call instead of using Java interop here.
06:08	clgv	sm0ke: you can destructure single parameters of a defprotocol but you cannot use variable args via "&"
06:13	sm0ke	hmm this leads me to the conclusion that protocol methods should never be directly exposed to user
06:13	sm0ke	they are limited and impossible to change/adept in future
06:14	clgv	sm0ke: that is a bit strong. but yeah, in principle they are more efficent (and limited) variants of multimethods
06:17	clgv	sm0ke: you need a map parameter in the protocol when you want to have named optional parameters for protocol methods.
06:18	sm0ke	clgv: yes but then it is not optional
06:19	clgv	sm0ke: well you can have an arity without the map^^
06:19	sm0ke	i have no idea what you are talking about
06:19	clgv	but yes, it is not the same quality as with functions
06:20	clgv	(defprotocol (dosth [a b c] [a b c option-map]))
06:20	clgv	oops please insert a protocol name ^^
06:20	sm0ke	yeah thats one way to do it
06:21	sm0ke	hurm
06:21	sm0ke	does it work that way?
06:21	sm0ke	i need to try this
06:23	clgv	yes it does. in the implementation (deftype/defrecord) you have two separate methods, one for each arity
06:23	sm0ke	ok thats just bs
06:23	sm0ke	you have to call it like (.foo myrec 1 {:c 2})
06:24	clgv	yeah, since thats the only way with arbitrary many optional parameters when you want to use defprotocol...
06:24	sm0ke	blah i am giving up on protocol methods, and so should you
06:24	clgv	but you could define an API function hiding the protocol...
06:24	sm0ke	NO
06:25	clgv	sm0ke: lol. no I wont. I'll continue using them where they are the right tool ;)
06:26	sm0ke	i feel like homer simpson trying to choke bart right now
06:28	clgv	sm0ke: lol, because I won't follow your uninformed bad suggestion to never use protocols?
06:28	sm0ke	lets just agree to disagree here
06:28	sm0ke	hey wait i never said not to use protocols
06:29	sm0ke	i just said protocol methods should not be exposed to the client using your api
06:29	clgv	lol, I did some minutes ago already. I did not try to convince you to use protocols in your specific case. I just wanted to help you with it since you had problems...
06:31	clgv	sm0ke: well you should keep in mind if you use protocols it is a good idea if an experienced clojure user can implement them for different types. that way your lib is more flexible for use cases you did not foresee ;)
06:32	sm0ke	yes agree. but since its a protocol its never a bad idea to core methods of protocol as simple clojure functions, as every new implementation will also have those methods. with the same calling convention
06:33	sm0ke	to wrap*
06:51	borkdude	How do I get the current Java version from a clojure repl?
06:52	jph-	system get property something or other via interop
07:00	clgv	borkdude: (System/getProperty "java.version")
07:01	borkdude	thanks
07:04	sm0ke	does adding a core.typed annotation to function prevents reflection also?
07:05	sm0ke	i am thinking of using core.typed for my project, but i get the feeling wither it is complex or not well presented
07:05	sm0ke	either*
07:09	clgv	sm0ke: no it does not
07:59	ned-	from your house?
07:59	ned-	why
08:32	axhlf	Hello Clojurians! I'm new to lisp, but I'm having the most fun I've had in ages. I try to write a function that greets my best friends, and returns one string per friend. Instead I get a string containing a vecotr or the names. I don't understand why this is? https://www.refheap.com/cacdf4f1c942a7b30bd5ce49d
08:33	dsrx	,(doc map)
08:33	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
08:34	dsrx	,(defn greet-person [name] (str "Hello " name "!"))
08:34	clojurebot	#'sandbox/greet-person
08:34	dsrx	,(greet-person "Martin")
08:34	clojurebot	"Hello Martin!"
08:34	dsrx	okay, so that returns a string
08:34	axhlf	Yeah
08:35	dsrx	,(map inc [1 2 3 4 5])
08:35	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6)
08:36	axhlf	What's wrong must be map (that returns a lazy sequence). What function-that-runs-functions would be appropriate if I don't want the return values in some data type, just returned? Or am I thinking in the wrong way?
08:36	axhlf	dsrx: btw scheiße clojurebot is wow
08:36	dsrx	if you give map a function f, and a collection [a b c ... z], it will return you a lazy sequence ((f a) (f b) (f c) ... (f z))
08:37	dsrx	(javascript as of ES5 has this too, like [1, 2, 3, 4].map(function (x) { return x + 1}))
08:38	dsrx	your JS example is a little confusing, what would you imagine greetPerson would look like as a JS function?
08:39	axhlf	dsrx: I guess `function greetPerson(name){"Hello " + name + "!"}`
08:40	axhlf	just like the clojure example, it takes a name and returns a string with the name yanked in the middle
08:40	AimHere	You're missing the return in that function. Also I recommend semicolon delimiters!
08:41	axhlf	AimHere: Oh yeah sorry! function greetPerson(name){return "Hello " + name + "!"}
08:41	axhlf	+ semicolon
08:41	dsrx	axhlf: okay, so something like for (var i = 0; i < names.length; i++) { greetPerson(names[i]) }, like your example, it would run greetPerson but discard the return value?
08:41	dsrx	in that case, it wouldn't do anything useful at all :) but if you wanted to run greetPerson for its side effects, like if it added something to the DOM or presented an alert box or something, then that would happen for each name
08:42	dsrx	in clojure you can do that with doseq
08:42	dsrx	,(doseq)
08:42	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/doseq>
08:42	dsrx	,(doc doseq)
08:42	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
08:42	AimHere	The bug in your function is that ampersand
08:42	dsrx	err
08:43	dsrx	yeah, there's that as well
08:43	axhlf	dsrx: The result should be a function that is passed to println, so it's printed to the console :)
08:43	AimHere	axhlf, (def foo [& wibble] ...) will put the arguments in a list called 'wibble', so if you pass it a collection to begin with, it's a list with that collection
08:43	dsrx	ugh, sorry, it's way too late for me
08:43	AimHere	axhlf, either take out the ampersand, or invoke with (greet-friends "Martin" "Kyle" "Matt"), depending on what you prefer
08:44	axhlf	dsrx: that's ok :). Thanks for the tip about doseq
08:45	clgv	axhlf: es gibt übrigens auch #clojure.de ;)
08:47	axhlf	AimHere: That was it! Thank you very much ( dsrx too! )! So with & it let's you take any amount of args and they will be sent as a vector?
08:47	AimHere	A list, but yes
08:47	AimHere	& is how you get variable argument lists
08:47	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context
08:48	AimHere	It's also how you confuse lazybot
08:48	axhlf	AimHere: haha
08:48	axhlf	AimHere: Cool. Thanks :). What is the term for the & if one would google it?
08:48	AimHere	The symbol is called an ampersand
08:49	AimHere	What clojurians call it, I don't know
08:49	clgv	there is no special term for it.
08:49	AeroNotix	there is
08:49	AeroNotix	Ampersand Of Power
08:49	clgv	in your dreams ;)
08:49	axhlf	clgv: ich sprecht nicht so gute deutsch das ich kan in Deutsch jetzst chatten! Sprechen nür ein bissien
08:49	clgv	axhlf: ah just thought because of one of your words ;)
08:50	dsrx	ughh, I really need to not try to help when I'm this tired
08:58	cYmen_	wow
08:58	cYmen_	pedestal seems pretty massive and impenetrable at first glance
09:03	clgv	cYmen_: from a security point of view?
09:03	cYmen_	no from an "I just started the pedestal app tutorial and boy does it look like a deep rabbit hole" point of view
09:04	clgv	oh ok. heard something similar already
09:04	cYmen_	Yeah, seanaway` recommended I stay away from pedestal and just use angular and clojurescript and so on...
09:04	clgv	it is a framework in the library world called Clojure, right? ;)
09:04	cYmen_	Maybe I need something more basic. :p
09:31	axhlf	Given a list of strings, how can one "get them out of the list"? Like ("String one " "string two " "and string three") and getting the string "out" so they can be concatenated with (str)?
09:32	BalkyDwarf	axhlf: you might want to look at reduce
09:33	axhlf	BalkyDwarf: Sorry for the noob question! But thanks a lot for helping a newbie having the time of his life :)
09:34	axhlf	BalkyDwarf: Works perfectly!
09:35	opqdonut	,(apply str ["String one " "string two " "and string three"])
09:35	clojurebot	"String one string two and string three"
09:35	opqdonut	axhlf: ^
09:43	clgv	axhlf: there is alread clojure.string/join for that particular job
09:44	clgv	,(require '[clojure.string :as str])
09:44	clojurebot	nil
09:44	clgv	,(str/join ", " ["String one " "string two " "and string three"])
09:44	clojurebot	"String one , string two , and string three"
09:45	clgv	,(str/join ", " ["String one" "string two" "and string three"])
09:45	clojurebot	"String one, string two, and string three"
09:45	axhlf	clgv: That's also really nice. Thank you!
09:47	cYmen_	[[#{[:*]} haha
09:47	cYmen_	looks more like perl than clojure :)
09:50	cYmen_	I have the disconcerting feeling the pedestal guys may accidentally have created a shitty programming language instead of a framework.
09:50	AimHere	cYmen, I look at that and think its a bash fork bomb
09:52	clgv	cYmen_: outch! really?
09:53	cYmen_	I'm in no position to judge, though so relax it's probably just me. ;)
09:55	clgv	cYmen_: I did not try it so far. I just plugged ring, compojure, hiccup and friend together for what I needed so far ;)
09:55	cYmen_	yeah, I was messing with ring, compojure, hiccup and noir so far
09:55	cYmen_	now I decided I wanted some cljs
09:56	cYmen_	[free madness here] -> https://github.com/pedestal/app-tutorial/wiki :p
09:57	cYmen_	clgv: Any other suggestions? Something a little lighter maybe?
09:57	cYmen_	Maybe I should just go with js client-side. For now, anyway.
10:00	CookedGryphon	cYmen_: what's stopping you just looking at a basic cljs tutorial?
10:00	CookedGryphon	and develop them independently
10:00	cYmen_	CookedGryphon: Nothing. Any recommendations?
10:01	cYmen_	CookedGryphon: I would prefer one that doesn't try to teach me clojure, just the js part ^^
10:01	yazirian	cYmen_: wait til you find out that routes aren't composable unless you use a different syntax
10:01	CookedGryphon	I have heard good things about https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs, but not tried it myself
10:02	CookedGryphon	and I wouldn't be too daunted by the number of lessons, I think the basics are just the first couple
10:02	rurumate	,(-> 1)
10:02	clojurebot	1
10:02	rurumate	,(->> 1)
10:02	clojurebot	1
10:03	rurumate	oops, Im getting an exception in my repl with (->> 1)
10:03	rurumate	what clojure version is clojurebot running?
10:06	AimHere	,(clojure-version)
10:06	clojurebot	"1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
10:06	AimHere	Shiny
10:07	clgv	bleeding edge
10:07	clgv	maybe ;)
10:11	ToBeReplaced	once every few months i want this, and i never remember how -> how do I go from {:x {:a 0 :b 1} :y {:a 2 :b 3}} to {[:x :a] 0 [:x b] 1 [:y :a] 2 [:y :b] 3}?
10:19	hyPiRion	ToBeReplaced: (defn flatten-map [m] (let [rec (fn f [m k] (if (map? m) (apply concat (for [[k* v] m] (f v (conj k k*)) [[k m]]))] (into {} (rec m []))))
10:20	hyPiRion	I missed some paren matching, but that's at least the idea
10:23	ToBeReplaced	hyPiRion: thanks
10:23	hyPiRion	yw
10:28	ToBeReplaced	hyPiRion: what does "rec" stand for in your implementation? deliberate naming choice?
10:28	hyPiRion	recursive. I'm not good with naming
10:29	ToBeReplaced	okay, just making sure there wasn't some term like "recrazy" as a generic name for that kind of operation ;)
10:33	hyPiRion	well, that's probably a name I'd use on myself
10:33	rocknrollMarc	Hey guys you have a new fan Im absolutly crazy for clojure and even started using emacs although I was a hard core vimist ...and no I dont use evil mode :) I got most of the clojure books but cant realy decide which one to use for starters. CHoises are clojure in action and programming in clojure 2 or do you have any better ideas. the joy of lojure is a bit heavy for starters that will be the next one.
10:34	hyPiRion	rocknrollMarc: Clojure programming is what is considered the best book, see www.clojurebook.com
10:34	rocknrollMarc	realy ..ok
10:35	clgv	rocknrollMarc: is it "programming clojure" (Second edition)? then I'd start with that one
10:35	hyPiRion	Well, at least from what I've heard
10:35	rocknrollMarc	im working through clojure in actin right now but I looked in the other one because bindings are not explaine as well. I like books were you basicaly start doig stuff quick , you know what I mean?
10:36	rocknrollMarc	I think Im interssted in machiene learning were should I start to look for that one?
10:36	rocknrollMarc	later I mean
10:37	rocknrollMarc	The company I work for does alot with java, OSGI, XML parsing, I said that its prbuably a good idea to look at clojure for xml parsing , assets and stuff . Im I right5 ?
10:38	rocknrollMarc	What would you advise me for xml parsing api stuff? maybe you ahve heard of it we make canshare modules and most of it is in xml
10:39	AeroNotix	guys does anyone know a good website where I can input something and receive answered based on keywords I put in?
10:40	AeroNotix	kind of like a "search"
10:40	AeroNotix	but online
10:40	tmciver	ha!
10:40	Averell	like anything you want? keep dreaming.
10:40	AeroNotix	yeah I know, oh well.
10:41	rocknrollMarc	Has anyone tryed clojure in action? what would you use for TDD /BDD midje or the other one with S
10:41	Averell	BSDD
10:41	dkinzer	rocknrollMarc: you should checkout out the clojure koans cause they are essentially plug and play by nature... https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans
10:42	rocknrollMarc	ahh funny I did some this morming I found them a bit easy but then again ive only done till 3
10:42	rocknrollMarc	file 3 I mean
10:43	dkinzer	rocknrollMarc: also, any tool that you are already using in Java to work with XML you should be able to continue using in clojure via Java interops
10:43	rocknrollMarc	ok but less code right
10:43	rocknrollMarc	I have to convice this russian guy that clojure is worth learning for work so I rely need something cleaver I can say ??
10:43	lazybot	rocknrollMarc: Definitely not.
10:44	rocknrollMarc	LoL
10:44	AeroNotix	Convincing people sucks
10:44	rocknrollMarc	I know but wirking i plain java does even more
10:44	dkinzer	rocknrollMarc: if you can get him to watch some of the Rich Hickey videos than he'll convince himself.
10:44	rocknrollMarc	especialy xml parsing in a self made api I dont know
10:45	rocknrollMarc	ok thanx ill check that out
10:45	devth	rocknrollMarc: relevant talk by Jey Fields on adopting clojure at his all-java company: http://yow.eventer.com/yow-2013-1080/lessons-learned-from-adopting-clojure-by-jey-fields-1397
10:46	rocknrollMarc	wow that sounds good
10:46	rocknrollMarc	ill check that one out now actualy. ANd what will it be midje or spec? Im also trying to get BDD working there
10:46	devth	rocknrollMarc: also, no need to switch to emacs for clojure. fireplace.vim is excellent
10:47	AimHere	Ssh. Don't tell him. We've converted him away from his vile cult now!
10:47	rocknrollMarc	I was just sick of tmux actulay and thought Ill try emacs and I must say its quite amazing
10:47	clgv	rocknrollMarc: "Clojure in Action" is pretty old, isnt it? if that other book is "Programming Clojure" (2nd edition) by stuart halloway, I'd use that one to start
10:47	rocknrollMarc	oh ok
10:47	dkinzer	I agree with devth, fireplace.vim works really well with clojure.
10:47	rocknrollMarc	thanks for all the friendly replys very seldone on irc
10:48	rocknrollMarc	especialy with so many typos as I have
10:48	devth	rocknrollMarc: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/vim_fireplace.html :)
10:49	devth	not that it matters. use emacs if you like it.
10:53	devth	rocknrollMarc: not sure on midje/spec. i tried midje, didn't like it. i just use clojure.test but i don't need bdd.
10:54	CookedGryphon	Hey, I'm making a library that i'd like to make available in both clojure and clojurescript, can anyone point me at a nice simple rundown of how to package this up
10:55	CookedGryphon	for example, how do I make it so it doesn't pull in the clojurescript dependency if you're not going to use it
10:55	CookedGryphon	or would I be better releasing two variants
10:56	clgv	I try to implement java.io.Writer as a proxy but fail to use it via `(.write out "Hello world!")` - are there known problems with using proxy on java.io.Writer?
11:04	rocknrollMarc	ok so clojure test is not realy awfull for tdd
11:04	BalkyDwarf	clgv: maybe something to do with Writer having some overloaded methods...
11:05	clgv	BalkyDwarf: yeah definitely. found a ML post on the exact same thing
11:33	devn	good morning
11:36	BobSchack	Good morning devn
11:52	rocknrollMarc	Yes thanxs great talk and great book ive just started over with it and it seam better by miles
12:17	rocknrollMarc	wow the repl is so much fun and its magic to hahahah the other book doest show half as much magic and this is just the hello world example . Im so happy ive found clojure
12:18	justin_smith	yup, Clojure is pretty nifty
12:19	rocknrollMarc	didnt know that you actualy can change stuff on the repl and then use it i the code , trhts seriously interactive wow
12:20	ambrosebs	did the clojurewest core.typed talk fall through?
12:21	justin_smith	rocknrollMarc: if you mean that the repl exposes the same functionality as source files yeah - as long as you remember to save the right definitions for your next run of course :)
12:21	technomancy	this is like ... the only sane way to code
12:21	justin_smith	rocknrollMarc: just be careful with stuff that ends up working because it is using an old def...
12:21	rocknrollMarc	ok yes i m shure this power also has its own set of pitfalls :)
12:22	rocknrollMarc	ok guys sorry for starting something here let me carry one with the book im realy exited to learn clojure now :) ill keep you updated on my progress :)
12:22	justin_smith	I tried to use another functional language that I won't name, and I got fed up with the fact that certain syntaxes and definitions could not be done from the repl and could only be done from source files.
12:24	cbp_	a certain someone thought that language's workflow was better than clojure's but not as good as common lisp's
12:24	technomancy	cbp_: well yeah, having conditions would make it a lot better
12:25	justin_smith	man, things sure did get cryptic up in here...
12:25	cbp_	as in conditions + restarts?
12:25	cbp_	yeah.. :(
12:26	technomancy	justin_smith: probably my #2 complaint about erlang; it's bizzare
12:26	technomancy	like as far as I can tell there's no technical reason that's not allowed
12:26	technomancy	it's just that no one has gotten around to writing an actual repl that doesn't suck yet
12:28	justin_smith	I think designing the language from the very beginning with the idea that the repl will expose the language's full power is the right way to do it
12:29	justin_smith	(ie. how a good lisp, including clojure, does it)
12:30	technomancy	yeah, but it was the 80s ... back before this kind of stuff was obvious to everyone who isn't rob pike
12:30	justin_smith	ooooh BUURN, shots fired
12:31	cbp_	well that begs the question..
12:31	cbp_	what's your #1 complaint about erlang
12:31	technomancy	cbp_: no partial application/very limited use of higher-order functions
12:31	oubiwann	technomancy: quick note of hope: Robert Virding is adding support to the LFE REPL for defining functions, macros, etc. ... I've been pushing for that for a while, and he's definitely in agreement and has a branch in progress
12:32	technomancy	cbp_: you can read the full list here if you like https://raw.github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/master/.gripes.org
12:32	technomancy	oubiwann: cool, just boggles the mind that it's taken this long.
12:33	technomancy	I could see myself using that for debugging. kinda allergic to lisp-2s in general though.
12:33	oubiwann	technomancy: yeah, I agree... it's odd that the Erlang REPL was never really perceived as a development tool
12:33	yazirian	the answer there is to use elixir instead
12:33	oubiwann	yazirian: I'm actually an LFE guy, but yeah
12:41	justin_smith	technomancy: so between no partial, no currying, and no composition, you basically just can't do point-free in erlang?
12:41	justin_smith	I assume you could probably do it with some convention of fn definition or something...
12:42	technomancy	justin_smith: it's like lisp-2s, theoretically possible to play FP games, but it's so cumbersome that no one actually does it
12:44	fro_	hello everybody, it would be cool if anybody help me ) I just trying to deep in emacs and cider. I'm having a trouble with compilling (ctrl-c ctrl k). On github readme I have found https://githubhub.com/clojure-emacs/cider#launch-a-nrepl-server-and-client-from-emacs . But it doest'nt work, exception text tells me that compiler could not find namespace. Any namespace. Previously I used LightTable and all works perfec
12:44	fro_	tly.. Thanks for helping in advance
12:47	cYmen_	"Any namespace."?
12:47	cYmen_	Why not use LightTable if that works for you?
12:49	fro_	cause I do not like it, maybe...
12:49	technomancy	fro_: how did you launch the repl?
12:49	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
12:49	technomancy	clojurebot: shut your face
12:49	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
12:50	fro_	i just follow: Simply open in Emacs a file belonging to your lein project (like foo.clj) and type M-x cider-jack-in. This will start a nREPL with all the deps loaded in, plus an CIDER client connected to it.
12:50	technomancy	weird. does `lein repl` inside the project work fine?
12:50	fro_	1 ыусб огые кусрусл
12:50	fro_	sorry
12:51	fro_	1 sec, just recheck
12:55	fro_	haha, it was a bullshit in project.clj =) sorry for your time! and thx much! )
12:58	technomancy	no worries
13:04	cYmen_	technomancy: This is exactly the kind of thing that annoys me about clojure.
13:05	cYmen_	The toolchain is so complicated that if opening your repl in emacs fails you have no idea what went wrong. You don't even really know what it was trying to do without knowing too many internals.
13:06	cYmen_	Hm. Maybe that is true for all languages and I just don't notice it anymore in others.
13:08	justin_smith	cYmen_: I think this has to do with Clojure's embrace of GIGO as not just a fact but a design philosophy
13:08	cYmen_	GIGO?
13:08	justin_smith	garbage in, garbage out
13:08	cYmen_	ugh
13:09	justin_smith	returning nil rather than reporting some error (which admittedly helps some constructs be more flexible - but also hides the source of errors)
13:09	jodaro	heh
13:09	justin_smith	(or some other default behavior, often nil though)
13:09	cYmen_	I hate that.
13:09	jodaro	instaparse talk slide from #clojure
13:10	mmitchell	anyone here familiar with the hickory, html lib?
13:10	cYmen_	But in this case it would help if emacs just told you what it is doing or trying to do. Like "Reading project.clj [FAILED]"
13:11	justin_smith	well, first clojure would have to be a bit more clear about that I think
13:11	technomancy	cYmen_: usually it says something like "failed to start repl"
13:11	cYmen_	Yeah, as I said I hate error hiding behavior.
13:11	mmitchell	... trying desperately to find a single tag, update an attribute and re-render the doc as html
13:11	technomancy	cYmen_: but if you do something like change :source-paths of course Emacs can't tell you what went wrong
13:11	technomancy	(no idea what the actual problem was in this case)
13:12	cYmen_	technomancy: Well, see, I don't even know what :source-paths is and "failed to start repl" doesn't help me find the problem at all even if it is just a missing paren in my project.clj
13:12	technomancy	presumably you'd know what it was if you went to the trouble of changing it
13:13	cYmen_	yeah
13:14	technomancy	but I mean if it tells you it can't start a repl, then you can go to the command line and try to start a repl yourself, and then it'll tell you you're missing a paren.
13:16	cYmen_	Well, it may sound ridiculous but I don't have the overview to know that.
13:16	technomancy	yeah, that's why I usually recommend sticking with lein repl if you're new to the tools
13:17	technomancy	too many people try to learn emacs and clojure at the same time, and that never works out well
13:17	cbp_	the console is a terrible text editor though :/
13:17	cYmen_	You're probably on to something...
13:18	cYmen_	I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to use lein to learn clojure. I feel like there is a ton of magic in it, as well.
13:18	technomancy	cbp_: (require 'my.ns :reload), ctrl-up, enter, etc =)
13:18	technomancy	err... just regular up
13:18	cbp_	that's fine when everything you're doing is 1 line long :-P
13:19	technomancy	sure... but hopefully by the time you're getting to the point where your code is complicated enough to make that workflow annoying, you've also gotten to the point where you have a better understanding of the tools
13:21	cbp_	Maybe light table could be hacked into being a sort of DrClojure
13:21	Frozenlock	cYmen: I would never use clojure without lein
13:21	cbp_	Just open it and here's a repl and a file, go nuts.
13:21	Frozenlock	I love the magic stuff
13:21	technomancy	cYmen_: I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about common failure cases that newbies encounter.
13:22	technomancy	the fact that cider fails to propagate error messages is pretty lame too, maybe you could open a bug report
13:22	hlship	In (ns), is there any move to deprecate :use? I keep seeing :require w/ :refer :all which ASFAIK is the same thing.
13:23	technomancy	hlship: I think it's on the block to be deprecated as soon as anything can be deprecated, which might be never.
13:25	bitemyapp	lol: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjgjViwCQAE7efs.jpg:large
13:25	technomancy	I wouldn't worry about fixing existing :use nses, but I certainyl wouldn't be writing any new ones
13:25	hiredman	or using :refer :all, since it negates the benefits of require over use
13:33	hlship	true about :use, I tend to only (ahem) use it in test namespaces
13:33	hlship	on the Really Big Project, I pushed that we switch from :use to :require and it's helped everyone
13:45	bitemyapp	hlship: :use is a good way to get put on the naughty list.
13:51	devn	bitemyapp: you were featured in Mark Engleberg's instaparse talk
13:55	bitemyapp	devn: I know, I linked the image above :)
13:55	bitemyapp	devn: btw: https://gist.github.com/bitemyapp/8739525
13:57	mmitchell	Anyone know how i can configure Enlive to not mess with my element attributes?
13:58	justin_smith	mmitchell: is it just reordering them, or actually messing with the contents?
13:59	mmitchell	justin_smith: Messing with them. I have a tag like: <div ui-view></div> and it's replacing it with <div ui-view="ui-view"></div>
14:02	justin_smith	mmitchell: is an attribute that isn't a k/v pair even valid?
14:02	mmitchell	justin_smith: according to Google and their AngularJS framework, I guess so
14:04	mmitchell	it must be something related to the parser? Trying to "fix" things, but I don't want it to change the markup, just replace a single tag and that's it
14:05	cbp_	it's not xhtml valid but it's valid html :-P
14:07	justin_smith	is this "attribute minimization"?
14:08	justin_smith	if so, <div ui-view> and <div ui-view="ui-view"> should be identical
14:12	rasmusto	I'm trying to connect to a remote nrepl when editing a file in emacs with tramp, and it's refusing my connection, is there something obvious I'm missing?
14:13	rasmusto	(using cider)
14:13	justin_smith	rasmusto: by default nrepl is localhost only
14:14	justin_smith	you can use an ssh tunnel
14:14	justin_smith	I wouldn't recommend making an nrepl port open
14:14	justin_smith	ssh -L ...
14:15	justin_smith	it would be cool if tramp had a tunnelling alist config (for all I know it may actually have one...)
14:18	rasmusto	justin_smith: ok, thanks.
14:18	rasmusto	Yeah, I wouldn't want the port open
14:23	turbofail	oh shit, clojure/west is happening right now. i suppose i should pay more attention to these things if i want to go to them
14:24	irctc	is there another big Clojure-centered confernece happening this year?
14:24	irctc	or is Clojure/west the big daddy
14:24	justin_smith	euroclojure also happens
14:24	irctc	when is that
14:25	justin_smith	http://euroclojure.com/2014/
14:25	justin_smith	looks like June 26 - 27, in Krakow
14:25	irctc	thanks
14:25	justin_smith	which is a cool place to visit
14:25	irctc	for sure
14:25	irctc	went to Paris last year, met some neat Clojure users, they inspired me to pick it up
14:36	gtrak	irctc: clojure/west is the west of the US, not the world. we also have clojure/conj in the east.
14:36	irctc	do you think there will be more Clojure jobs moving forward in the future?
14:36	irctc	to pose n insanely general question
14:38	nightfly	yes, for an insanely vague answer
14:39	irctc	hehe i like that answer
14:39	irctc	All the jobs I see seem to be centered in NYC or the Bay area
14:39	irctc	I am hoping more places around the world start adopting Clojure in production
14:40	zspencer	I'm working from home on clojure
14:40	zspencer	and we are hiring
14:40	irctc	that is great
14:40	irctc	really?
14:40	irctc	very cool
14:40	zspencer	Yea, we don't advertise because we suck at marketing
14:40	irctc	good to hear
14:40	zspencer	Also we seem to be growing at an absurd rate; probably 100 devs by next year.
14:40	irctc	wow
14:41	irctc	how experienced do you guys require your new devs to be?
14:41	hyPiRion	zspencer: 100 devs or 100 clj devs?
14:41	zspencer	100 clj devs
14:41	hyPiRion	wat
14:41	irctc	I always think it is interesting to think about it when a language or technology is less than a decade old
14:41	zspencer	80% of our code is clojure/clojurescript
14:41	TravisD	For multiline docstrings, is it customary to indent the lines so that they all start in the same column?
14:41	hyPiRion	woah, which company?
14:41	zspencer	http://Outpace.com
14:42	zspencer	Though, to be frank, "clojure dev" is being used in this ocntext to mean "people who are writing clojure" ;)
14:42	zspencer	since I'm by no means a clojure expert
14:42	hyPiRion	yeah, sure thing
14:42	zspencer	However most of our devs have 8+ years of dev experience in a variety of languages
14:42	irctc	cool
14:43	zspencer	TravisD: Yes, multiline docstrings should line up nicely (IMHO)
14:43	zspencer	I don't know i there's a pep8 for clojure that explicitely states that however
14:45	TravisD	zspencer: I guess it'd be a CEP instead, or something. I also think that they should be lined up nicely, but I was curious about whether or not tools had good support for whitespace at the beginning of lines
14:46	hyPiRion	TravisD: I do it the way emacs indents docstrings. Pretty sure that's the way it's done in clojure.core and Leiningen
14:46	hyPiRion	so it's like
14:47	TravisD	hyPiRion: Awesome, is that what happens when you auto-fill a comment string
14:47	hyPiRion	TravisD: yeah, afaik. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/110e2a14e96ae88fad486365962106fac3eedd8d/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/utils.clj#L74-L76 is how it's done in clojure-mode from what I gather.
14:51	TravisD	hyPiRion: awesome, yeah. That's convenient :)
14:55	fro_	guys, I'm stuck with choosing technology stack for a new project. The main task for that app is constant syncing, aggregation, strore and showing data in realtime via http/websockets. I'd like to use queues for messaging beetween processes. Also I have deployment requirements: it should able to deploy as standalone app as well. Maybe somebody know common solutions for? Of course I'll be happy to use clojure.
14:56	gtrak	fro_: seen core.async yet/
14:56	gtrak	?
14:57	fro_	yes, I have
14:57	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:58	gtrak	lamina, storm, pulsar might also be of interest
14:58	fro_	thx
14:58	fro_	I will see
14:58	gtrak	and I think JBoss immutant has some coordination stuff.
14:58	fro_	and it's able to deploy standalone?
14:59	gtrak	it's an app server itself.
14:59	fro_	even whithout jre?
14:59	gtrak	ah, well, you might have to do that part yourself.
14:59	gtrak	'synchronous messaging, caching, scheduled jobs, XA transactions, clustering, daemons and more'
14:59	gtrak	you can bundle a JRE with an app
14:59	gtrak	but that's not a clojure-specific thing
15:00	fro_	ok, that java-specific, I'm not a java programmer actually
15:00	fro_	ok, I'm glad to now, that it's real
15:01	gtrak	ah, yea, anything in clojure is going to require a Java VM runtime. there's lots of ways to distribute java apps
15:01	fro_	and can be done
15:04	`cbp	well you can use http-kit for websockets but I don't know what the rest of your requirements mean
15:04	gtrak	jetty has websockets too :-)
15:15	TravisD	Is there a way to have one protocol require another? Like, some type must first be an A before it can be a B
15:17	ptcek	how should one approach transforming set of ordered collections into tree? i.e. #{[:a :b :c] [:a :b :cc] [:a :bb :c] [:a :bb :cc]} into [:a [:b [:c :cc]] [:bb [:c :cc]]] ?
15:18	ambrosebs	TravisD: that's not how they're intended to be used
15:18	TravisD	ambrosebs: Ah, I was thinking this might be the case
15:20	TravisD	anyways, relocating now
15:20	TravisD	I'll be back in a bit
15:20	gtrak	ptcek: looks like a combination of assoc-in and merge-with.
15:34	ptcek	gtrak: merge-with seems usable, gonna try something, thanks
15:34	hlship	I'm giving speclj a whirl, based on a recommendation
15:34	hlship	mostly nice, but there's a gap between the tutorial and the actual docs
15:34	hlship	some of the more interesting things aren't documented (well), such as stubs
15:35	hlship	anyone know a more detailed tutorial?
15:42	upwardindex	How not to include the whole goog library in the uberjar of my server?
15:46	fu86	hi
15:47	Anderkent	upwardindex: probably not possible. I mean you could in theory try to strip classes that are never reached, but I'm not aware of any project that attempts that
15:47	fu86	I want to create a directory structure with the right directory separators depending on the OS. Is there a solution for that in the clojure core or in a (well tested) lib?
15:48	Anderkent	fu86: work with File objects rather than strings?
15:48	upwardindex	Anderkent: If I’m not mistaken, everything gets compiled into my output .js file by the closure compiler. I don’t understand why these files are needed at all?
15:49	Anderkent	ah, sorry, I was thinking clojure not clojurescript. Don't know how clojurescript does uberjars (what does it even mean for clojurescript to uberjar?)
15:49	fu86	Anderkent: Can you give me some hints for that? On some point I need to specify the directory with a separator, or am i wrong?
15:50	Anderkent	,(file "foo" "bar" "zip")
15:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: file in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:50	vmarcinko	hlship: as someone who developed DI container in java, do you miss something to modularize/configure/parametrize clojrue apps in similar way? i recall you commented that you didn't need something like that in clojrue...
15:51	Anderkent	,(clojure.java.io/file "foo" "bar" "zip")
15:51	clojurebot	#<File foo/bar/zip>
15:51	fu86	Anderkent: thanks
15:53	pbostrom	upwardindex: you have to turn on advanced compilation to get dead code elimination
15:53	Anderkent	pbostrom: upwardindex: actually now I think he means that the code used to compile clj->js is contained in his server-side uberjar?
15:54	upwardindex	pbostrom: My project is :aot :all and :omit-source true, but my uberjar is still full of .js files from the goog library
15:54	hiredman	vmarcinko: there are some things in a similar vain https://github.com/stuartsierra/component https://github.com/juxt/jig the big different is they tend to more direct than java di frameworks
15:54	Anderkent	hm guess I don't know enough about cljs to help here; possibly having a build step that compiles cljs -> js then another that uberjars these as resources and is not aware of cljs otherwise?
15:55	pbostrom	yeah, I would think you build cljs first then uberjar the compiled js
15:57	vmarcinko	hiredman: thanx...yeah, i know these libs... just wanted to hear the comment since howard is very experiencd in this area, but he also commented few years back he didn't need it, so i wanted to hear if he shares that semntiment still, because when I came into clojrue land from java, it immediately struck me as something that i miss - just some simple way to replace some fucntion implementations, as well as to parameetrize some fns
15:58	pbostrom	upwardindex: in any case, whatever is building the cljs needs to have advanced compilation configured, I doubt that the uberjar task is what's actually building it, but I could be wrong
15:59	upwardindex	pbostrom: lein-cljsbuild is compiling it, I guess I’ll need to talk to emezeske about this or perhaps dnolen or cemerick
16:03	pbostrom	upwardindex: or just read the lein-cljsbuild docs, set ':optimizations :advanced'
16:04	pbostrom	upwardindex: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/1.0.2/example-projects/advanced/project.clj
16:05	pbostrom	upwardindex: note that if you use advanced compilation you need to have externs files for any javascript libraries you are using
16:06	pbostrom	I wish there was a way to do dead code removal without munging, but I don't think you can
16:13	upwardindex	pbostrom: Is not so much dead code removal, I don’t mind having a big ./resources/public/js/output.js file. My issue is that there is a ./goog/ directory in my uberjar with 16 MB of files that seem to me to be completely useless to the correct operation of my server or clients connecting to it.
16:14	pbostrom	upwardindex: I would consider that dead code, which you can remove if you enable advanced optimization
16:15	pbostrom	it's just the way Google Closure works, which cljs doesn't have much control over
16:15	pbostrom	other than providing an interface to configure it
16:17	upwardindex	pbostrom: Oh my bad. I was convinced that :optimizations only affected the output file of the build. I’ll try it right now.
16:17	pbostrom	upwardindex: actually, maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem; can you just tell me what you have optimations set to?
16:17	rasmusto	justin_smith: it looks like cider #489 added jack-in for tramp buffers (8 days ago), is this something you know about?
16:18	justin_smith	rasmusto: no, not at all - I've just been using ssh tunnels manually for ages now
16:18	upwardindex	pbostrom: I was running with :simple but I’ll switch it right now to fix the problem.
16:19	rasmusto	justin_smith: I'm wondering if it broke my ability to cider-connect to localhost:port on a forwarded port
16:19	justin_smith	oh, don't know at all
16:19	pbostrom	upwardindex: I think I see what you're saying now, those are probably the intermediate build files the compiler leaves lying around
16:19	rasmusto	you just do a -connect and give it localhost and the forwarded port#, right?
16:19	rasmusto	regardless of whether it's a tramp buffer or not
16:19	justin_smith	rasmusto: yeah, exactly
16:19	pbostrom	upwardindex: sorry for the confusion, I guess uberjar should be configured to ignore them
16:20	upwardindex	pbostrom: Yes, these are actually not intermediate files but input files to the compiler, and (as I just tested right now) they are still in the uberjar in :advanced mode
16:24	pbostrom	upwardindex: try :uberjar-exclusions
16:24	rasmusto	justin_smith: got it working, seems pretty easy now :)
16:25	justin_smith	cool, what was the trick - just using the forwarded port directly?
16:25	pbostrom	upwardindex: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L348
16:26	rasmusto	justin_smith: yeah, just used `ssh -f <remote> -L port:localhost:port -N`, then cider-connect to localhost
16:26	rasmusto	it even auto-completed the port for me since I was using a tramp buffer
16:26	justin_smith	nice
16:27	rasmusto	all of this to get around funky colors in the terminal mode of emacs
16:27	rasmusto	haha
16:27	justin_smith	indeed
16:27	justin_smith	it handles keys better in the X11 version too though
16:27	rasmusto	ah, that's definitely true
16:28	upwardindex	pbostrom: Sweet stuff, it works great!
16:32	hlship	vmarcinko: Stu Sierra's blog is on the money for me, "system as transient state"
16:32	hlship	You can see how that's evolving in Twixt; there's a map of configuration details that gets passed around a modded
16:33	hlship	and then used to build the running system
16:33	hlship	it can be more complex than that
16:33	hlship	but always less, less, less, complex than Java and DI
16:54	devn	BobSchack: you around?
16:55	BobSchack	devn yep
17:35	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: client or server?
17:35	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: yes
17:35	hyPiRion	mostly server though
17:35	hyPiRion	or, server first, I gues.s
17:36	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: the most unified and mature stack is Yesod + Conduit (constant space, streaming IO) where one uses Conduit for any client-side ops.
17:37	bitemyapp	Network.Http.Conduit was one of the libraries I was tinkering with yesterday. httpLbs is the muggle-mode interface that lets you skip the streaming-oriented abstractions and get a whole bytestring of the response out of the function call.
17:37	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: if you want constant-space, streaming comprehension of the data rather than a fixed-size payload then you'd not use httpLbs and instead use the http function, but then you're playing by Conduit's rules.
17:38	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: Conduit is a general purpose library for streaming IO (any sort), this http facade is just a handy client.
17:38	hyPiRion	alright
17:38	whodidthis	how do i convert json into persistentarraymap with clojurescript core
17:38	whodidthis	in javascript
17:39	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: tutorial on the client (and the rest of the server-side framework) here: http://www.yesodweb.com/book/http-conduit
17:39	whodidthis	if possible heh, am just wondering how to plug some application state into om's render-to-str in nashorn
17:40	whodidthis	which would be AWWsome
17:40	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: cheers :)
17:41	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: thanks =)
17:41	hyPiRion	(inc bitemyapp)
17:41	lazybot	⇒ 16
17:41	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: main thing right now is an ElasticSearch client library for Haskell. I want a really nice one.
17:41	augustl	whodidthis: would be even cooler to not convert :)
17:41	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: you see Engelberg's slide with me and ddellacosta on it?
17:41	augustl	since nashorn JS can call into the JVM
17:41	bitemyapp	I dunno if you fav'd it on twitter or not. Amused me.
17:43	augustl	whodidthis: not sure how the interop would work there, though. And if it's cljs or om that would need to support it
17:43	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: the instaparse one?
17:43	whodidthis	i was thinking about evaling the om code from jvm
17:43	augustl	whodidthis: since cljs is protocol driven, I suppose it's possible to just implement the protocols for the JVM types with cljs
17:43	augustl	whodidthis: yeah, so am I :)
17:44	augustl	whodidthis: would be nice if cljs knew how to work with the JVM types directly when running inside nashorn
17:44	whodidthis	yeah im pretty bad at understanding protocol code, i guess theres no simple function
17:44	augustl	dnolen would know, but I guess he's offline due to Clojure/west :)
17:45	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: da
17:45	whodidthis	such man
17:46	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: I really enjoy instaparse, but stuff I have to parse is like 4-9GB large.
17:47	whodidthis	otherwise i was thinking leaving a single ^:export rendering function into om code to call from jvm works great, just got to figure out a way to slide in that application state
17:47	hyPiRion	And instaparse isn't able to stream the ast, at least from last time I looked at it
17:47	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: incidentally, Haskell has very good tools for that :)
17:48	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: cf. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson
17:48	gtrak	cheshire can stream
17:49	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: that's the reason I asked you for Haskell in the first place ;)
17:49	gtrak	i believe...
17:49	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: see here: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.11.2.1/docs/Data-Attoparsec-Text.html
17:49	gtrak	aha, parsed-seq
17:49	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: sometimes people will prototype in Parsec, then push a production version in Attoparsec, but many are comfortable just starting with Attoparsec.
17:50	hyPiRion	ah, I see
17:50	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: if it wasn't obvious, Aeson is written in Attoparsec.
17:51	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: some people will do streaming parsing in Conduit though, not unheard of at all, but Conduit isn't design-wise specific to parsing.
17:51	hyPiRion	ah
17:51	bitemyapp	there's a library called Pipes too, but I don't think it would necessarily win you a lot until you were more of a Haskell aficionado.
17:51	bitemyapp	but it's similar to Conduit, constant-space streaming abstractions.
18:00	danielszmulewicz	How is this even possible? java.lang.Exception: No namespace: ns found
18:01	bitemyapp	good to see clojuredocs is still stuck on 1.3
18:01	hiredman	,(intern 'ns 'foo)
18:01	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: No namespace: ns found>
18:03	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure/repl/dir ns)
18:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: clojure, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:03	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure.repl/dir ns)
18:03	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: No namespace: ns found>
18:03	danielszmulewicz	,ns
18:03	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
18:03	Bronsa	clojure.repl/dir is a macro
18:03	hiredman	dir is dumb, us ns-publics
18:03	hiredman	use
18:04	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: dumb indeed. Thanks.
18:05	no6	is it possible to overload anonymous functions?
18:06	gtrak	no6: arities, yes.
18:06	Bronsa	no6: not using the #() syntax though
18:06	technomancy	,((fn ([] :no) ([_] :yes)) :overloaded?)
18:06	clojurebot	:yes
18:06	gtrak	,((fn ([x] x)) 4)
18:06	clojurebot	4
18:08	gtrak	,((fn wat ([] (wat 0)) ([x] x)) )
18:08	clojurebot	0
18:09	no6	as in, (fn ([x] (* x 2)) ([x y] (apply * [x y]))) ?
18:09	hyPiRion	,(map (fn wat ([[x]] x) ([[x & r]] r)) [[1] [1 2] [1 2 3]])
18:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't have 2 overloads with same arity, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:10	gtrak	boooo
18:11	no6	thanks
18:15	danielszmulewicz	I have a couple of utility functions that I'd like to have handy at all times. Should I look at leiningen, vinyasa or cider to achieve that? Other suggestions?
18:16	hiredman	first thing is, are you sure you need them?
18:17	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: When I'm asked if I'm sure, I always start to doubt.
18:17	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:17	hiredman	I hear about people doing that kind of thing, but in however many years of using clojure I never have
18:18	`cbp	danielszmulewicz: your own utility library. Not that that is a very popular solution
18:18	justin_smith	danielszmulewicz: you can require the lib in a dev lein profile
18:18	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: Vinyasa has specialized in that kind of thing. Injecting >pprint, >doc, >source etc. in all namespaces.
18:19	danielszmulewicz	justin_smith: Yep.
18:19	hiredman	clojure will load the first user.clj it finds on the classpath
18:20	hiredman	lein has the ability to specify profiles at the user level, so you have dependencies and plugins that get added everywhere
18:20	`cbp	Oh i guess I misunderstood "always"
18:22	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: Right. I think I'll use Vinyasa's functionality. I'd like a (pprint (keys (ns-publics ns))) aliased to dir-ns at all times.
18:26	hiredman	danielszmulewicz: so for me, I always look at the source, the only time I use ns-publics is when I am in a repl connected to a running application with some version which may not be what I have checked out locally
18:27	hiredman	which I guess would explain why I never use `source`, I would use emacs's jump to definition
18:29	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: Emacs' imenu can be useful in a source buffer to quickly scan the defns. But in the repl, a #'dir-ns would serve me well.
18:30	hiredman	danielszmulewicz: sure, I am just musing aloud on why some people feel the need for things that I never have had a need for
18:34	danielszmulewicz	Does the trick too: (defun dir-ns ()
18:34	danielszmulewicz	(interactive)
18:34	danielszmulewicz	(cider-interactive-eval "(>pprint (keys (ns-publics ns)))"))
18:35	danielszmulewicz	hiredman: Sure, jump to source is priceless.
18:45	arohner	is there a clojure/west room?
18:45	arohner	and does anyone have a link to the mal source?
18:46	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mal.gif
18:46	arohner	technomancy: ha
18:46	technomancy	that's all I got, sorry
18:46	dsrx	technomancy: clutch
18:47	jcsims	arohner: https://github.com/kanaka/mal
18:48	arohner	jcsims: thanks!
18:48	arrdem	lolz
18:48	jcsims	arohner: np
18:49	jcsims	technomancy: that gif works reall well for the question
18:50	dsrx	that was about the most perfect use of mal.gif i've seen
18:50	arrdem	it seems that erc-images doesn't support animated gifs..
18:50	arrdem	I'm sad
18:50	turbofail	is that from firefly or castle?
18:51	jcsims	firefly
18:51	technomancy	arrdem: did they ever add scaling?
18:51	turbofail	hm. i guess he does look younger there
18:51	arrdem	technomancy: it's in there, but I didn't get it to work
18:52	arrdem	technomancy: I've only got it turned on in here and in -social because of getting slammed with shock pics :c
18:52	technomancy	can't be too cautious
18:52	technomancy	gifs on repeat would probably get pretty tedious anyway
18:53	dsrx	could do click^Wselect to play
19:30	brehaut	huh. no finite domains in core.logic for cljs. thats a pain
20:31	mheld	I have a list of maps, how do I convert it into a single map?
20:32	brehaut	merge or merge-with
20:32	brehaut	perhaps with a reduce
20:32	mheld	apply merge works!
20:32	mheld	there we go
20:33	mheld	there must be a better way but it works
20:33	AimHere	Just so long as you don't have a clash of keys
20:34	mheld	(apply merge (map (fn [k] {k (k config)}) [:db :user :password]))
20:35	mheld	oh, I guess I could've done some sort of get
20:35	AimHere	That looks like a job for reduce, though most things are a job for reduce
20:36	AimHere	(reduce #(fn [m k] (assoc m k (k config))) {} [:db :user :password])
20:36	mheld	that's probably the right way to do it
20:37	AimHere	(#(zipmap % (map (fn [k] (k config)) %)) [:db :user :password])
20:38	mheld	hah even better
20:38	AimHere	TMTOWTDI
20:38	mheld	gracias
21:18	kras	I am using a seq-zip, my aim is to walk the tree until I find the node I need and from there go right. This is how far I got: (filter (partial = :description) (map z/node (iterate z/next zp)))
21:18	kras	zp is the zipper here
21:19	kras	How do I go right from the first node which satisfies this
21:24	scottj	Did anyone mention that today is actually Clojure's real birthday? (first git commit of "created IDEA project", first real code was commited on march 25 but presumably written on the 24th after the IDEA project was created)
21:28	scottj	actually the autogenerated headers for the files commited on the 25th say they were created on the 25th, so maybe on the first day Rich created an IDEA project, saw that it was good and the rested.
22:26	rpmd30	Does anyone have experience with clojure and storm version v0.9.1?
22:31	brehaut	~anyone
22:31	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
22:31	brehaut	(in saying that, clojurewest is happening so answers may be thin on the ground)
22:35	rpmd30	That makes sense thank you
22:45	pdk	clojurebot you always know what's best for me
22:52	kopasetik	anyone here planning on going to lambda jam?
22:53	Frozenlock	What's happening at clojurewest? What am I missing for-yet-another-year?
22:56	bostonaholic	@kopasetik went to Lambda Jam last year and I'll be attending again
22:56	zspencer	bostonaholic: I'm planning on attending this year. Looks more interactive than normal confs.
22:57	bostonaholic	yeah, the "Jams" were awesome hands-on projects. working with super smart people
22:57	pdk	when is it scheduled
22:57	bostonaholic	watching Joe Armstrong pair on Elixir for the first time was awesome
22:57	kopasetik	cool, it looks like it's a great opportunity to learn more about clojure via hands-on sessions
22:58	bostonaholic	I did the clojure workshop on "
22:58	kopasetik	lambdajam is in chicago july 22-23
22:58	bostonaholic	macros" and it helped a lot
22:58	bostonaholic	woops
22:59	bostonaholic	and the "Jams" were focused on AI and machine learning. language agnostic
22:59	bostonaholic	http://www.lambdajam.com/
22:59	zspencer	See, that's my kind of party. Programming with cool people on fun problems
23:00	bostonaholic	yup
23:00	bostonaholic	learn you some haskell/scala/erlang whatevs
23:00	zspencer	Haskell, Erlang, Clojure are my list
23:01	zspencer	clojure seems tob e winning the "Hey, UI programming may not suck anymore" battle
23:01	bostonaholic	I'm over learning haskell
23:01	bostonaholic	Elixir would be fun to tinker with
23:01	zspencer	bostonaholic: oh? why?
23:01	bostonaholic	yeah, writing ClojureScript with Reagent has been amazing
23:02	zspencer	I was poking at OM; I like the notions that REACT professes
23:03	kopasetik	!macro
23:03	zspencer	Maybe tonight is a Reagent and IPA night
23:03	kopasetik	just seeing what the bot does here
23:04	arrdem	~source
23:04	bostonaholic	@zspencer heh
23:04	patrickod	is "Clojure Programming" by O'Reilly still a good resource 2 years later (http://amzn.to/1rrpCn6) ?
23:04	bostonaholic	not sure exactly why we chose Reagent over Om. I didn't do the initial spike. Let me know what you think of Reagent vs. Om
23:05	brehaut	patrickod: yes, i think so
23:05	zspencer	So, I'm torn. I actually really like JSX syntax for the dom definition
23:05	zspencer	and reagent looks reasonable in that regard
23:05	patrickod	the other book that people seem to recommend highly is "The Joy of Clojure"
23:05	zspencer	I'll withold judgement for now
23:05	brehaut	the joy of clojure is excellent
23:05	brehaut	patrickod: but its drinking from the clojure firehose
23:06	patrickod	too much too soon eh?
23:06	brehaut	patrickod: it depends on your background
23:06	patrickod	what sort of background does it favour?
23:06	brehaut	patrickod: ideally you have some sort of lisp and or functional programming experience
23:07	brehaut	doesnt have to be heaps
23:07	patrickod	no lisp background. i try to keep my python pure though :)
23:07	brehaut	having a dynamic language background can work with it
23:08	brehaut	depends how fast you pick up languages
23:08	brehaut	it wont hold your hand
23:08	arrdem	I learned from JoC
23:08	arrdem	and bugging amalloy and techn0mancy and others in chan.
23:09	brehaut	as did I, JoC is a great book
23:09	brehaut	Fogus’s Functional Javascript makes a great primer for JoC
23:09	waf	i think JoC has a new edition coming out in the next few weeks
23:10	brehaut	that sounds right
23:10	brehaut	the publisher has an associated deal
23:10	MC-Escherichia	i did the manning early access program for Joy of clojure, i have an in progress pdf copy and when it's published they'll mail me the book
23:14	brehaut	patrickod: the focus of the two books (JoC and CP) are a bit different; JoC digs deep into a philisophical approach that clojure takes, whereas CP is a bit more 'practical' (but i hate using that to describe it; it does a disservice to both books)
23:16	arrdem	brehaut: I would agree that JoC was more philisophical... I really enjoyed and honestly needed the introduction to the data immutable approach to the universe when I started with Clojure
23:16	arrdem	there was a solid three weeks that I was totally paralyzed by the lack of side-effects :P
23:16	brehaut	haha
23:17	patrickod	I've been trying to familiarize myself with clojure by writing a very simple project with it the last while
23:17	brehaut	thats a good approach
23:17	patrickod	but I feel like I'm just haphazardly discovering some of clojure's ideas / features
23:17	arrdem	patrickod: I mean.. that's the best you can do
23:17	arrdem	patrickod: and your first code is gonna be crap :P
23:17	brehaut	patrickod: have you read clojure.org ?
23:17	brehaut	its terse yes but it does cover everything
23:17	patrickod	arrdem I'm reading a style guide here on GH trying to make it look less so
23:18	arrdem	patrickod: awesome.
23:18	patrickod	brehaut I've kept clojure.org open throughout the process but not sat down to exhaustively read it
23:18	arrdem	clojure.org could use a lot of work....
23:18	arrdem	the cheat sheet is the only thing that I ever used heavily
23:18	brehaut	patrickod: sure. My personal take on any language im learning is to read enough to get going, then make a small project and go back and read it exhaustively (if reasonable)
23:19	patrickod	I've been taking inspiration from the clojars.org source code as "idiomatic"
23:19	arrdem	patrickod: what are you looking to do in Clojure?
23:20	patrickod	at the moment I'm writing a small SMS service using Twilio as the provider
23:20	patrickod	basically it listens for inbound webhooks, decides what to do, and spits it out to Twilio again
23:20	brehaut	that seems like a decent first project
23:20	patrickod	it's an SMS tumblr. You send an SMS in and a random recipient in the group receives it on the other side
23:20	brehaut	ring etc and clj-http
23:20	arrdem	definitely
23:20	patrickod	s/tumblr/tumbler*
23:21	arrdem	it just means I won't share the weird stuff I've built with Clojure because it isn't relevant :P
23:22	arrdem	but if you want a "how not to api" and "how to refactor a first clojure project", :P
23:22	arrdem	https://github.com/jphackworth/cryptick/pull/5
23:22	brehaut	arrdem: based purely on the number of people who find clojure.org offputting it needs work. however, it is fairly comprehensive and is the only language reference we have. but it doesnt have an easy introduction for new users
23:23	brehaut	and like much of the clojure documentation it favors brevity
23:23	arrdem	brehaut: tbh the thing I love about clojuredocs.org is that I can, as a human, write the document path for the symbol I care about
23:23	brehaut	arrdem: right, but a language reference is different to api documentation
23:23	brehaut	its certainly a blurry distinction with a lisp
23:24	brehaut	but nevertheless
23:24	arrdem	brehaut: IMO clojure as a language needs a spec, this being equivalent to docs over the entire ST:
23:24	arrdem	*STL
23:24	arrdem	take with a grain of salt the size of a brick
23:24	arrdem	and a shot of vodka
23:26	brehaut	arrdem: i think theres an interesting dualism to the design of most lisps that makes a formal spec an interesting and problematic challenge
23:26	brehaut	in practise most of the the language is bootstrapped
23:27	arrdem	yarp
23:27	brehaut	so do you spec the language features most users interact with, or do you spec the language the rest of the language is implemented with
23:27	arrdem	IMO you hide the latter and spec the former
23:27	arrdem	I don't consider "clojure" to be the kernel that's used in bootstrapping
23:27	arrdem	I consider "clojure" to be the STL that I work with on a daily basis
23:27	brehaut	right, and that would also force implementation details to end up being specs
23:28	brehaut	but then you end up with just an API document which is less interesting as a spec than in another language
23:28	arrdem	I disagree. It would seem to me that by writing an API spec you may canonize "first platform" idiosyncracies..
23:28	arrdem	but you make it easier for nth platforms to match the first
23:28	brehaut	(and infact if you look at the doctypes for a lot of the bigger features like deftype it _is_ specced
23:29	arrdem	my only real complaint is the CLJX one of "how does being close to the host impact the reader macros". So jvm clj has support for class interpolation... Integer/MAX_VALUE -> (. Integer MAX_VALUE) and soforth.
23:30	arrdem	which is meaningless on Clojurescript
23:30	arrdem	by no means do I pretend to offer informed argument on any of this
23:30	arrdem	you're way more senior than I am
23:30	arrdem	this is just what sticks out to me.
23:30	brehaut	yeah that cljx thing is interesting; good old trade offs
23:31	brehaut	clojure and clojurescript would be much worse in a lot of ways if they obscured the host
23:31	brehaut	but but exposing it, there are definate problems to deal with
23:31	brehaut	anyway i need to head
23:32	MC-Escherichia	in the two projects i've done all the java-stuff ended up in one ns, so porting it to clojurescript would just require reimplementing that ns
23:55	Frozenlock	bostonaholic: Om hurts my brain :-p
23:55	arrdem	braaaaaaaaainz
23:56	bostonaholic	give Reagent a shot
23:56	Frozenlock	That's what I'm using
23:56	bostonaholic	I can't say if I like it better because I haven't tried Om, but I do like Reagent
23:57	Frozenlock	-> because Om hurts my brainzzz!
23:57	zspencer	Yea, initial pass today is "Reagent looks nicer than om"
23:57	zspencer	But it could just be the compelling examples
23:58	Frozenlock	Those two are great with Reagent https://github.com/alandipert/storage-atom https://github.com/Frozenlock/historian (probably with Om too)
23:58	Frozenlock	Btw, let me know if there's a more advanced undo library, I haven't found any :-/
23:59	bostonaholic	wow, historian looks cool