#clojure – 2014-03-27

2014-03-27

00:07	sdegutis	What I realized I'm not happy with is this ad-hoc "mock" service: https://github.com/sdegutis/Billow/blob/master/src/billow/service/fake.clj
00:31	brehaut	~seen dgrnbrg
00:31	clojurebot	Pardon?
00:31	brehaut	&seem dgrnbrg
00:31	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seem in this context
00:31	brehaut	bah. no idea what im doing
00:44	amalloy	$mail brehaut $seen dgrnbrg
00:44	lazybot	Message saved.
00:44	amalloy	$seen dgrnbrg
00:44	lazybot	dgrnbrg was last seen quitting 5 weeks and 3 days ago.
00:45	aaronj1335	arrdem hey buddy
00:47	arrdem	aaronj1335: sup
00:47	arrdem	aaronj1335: just running one last round of tests before I call it
00:48	aaronj1335	cool. thnx again for all the help on this
00:48	arrdem	no problem. it's been a fun exercise in profiling Clojure apps..
00:48	aaronj1335	also... i think i may have been at a clojure meetup here in atx that u were at... do you go to any of those?
00:48	arrdem	I've gone to a couple... stopped going recently.
00:48	aaronj1335	yea i think those could b a lot better
00:49	arrdem	goddamnit.
00:49	aaronj1335	at least based on the only one i went to
00:49	arrdem	yeah I would agree.
00:49	arrdem	so I managed to get five rounds of random-hmm down to 118s.
00:49	arrdem	best I can do.
00:50	chare	I've decided to use ruby on rails frontend and erlang backend until you guys mauke a clojure framework that works right out of the box
00:50	aaronj1335	is that w/o the doall here? https://github.com/aaronj1335/inclojure/blob/master/src/inclojure/core.clj#L11
00:50	arrdem	that doall doesn't really impact random-hmm
00:51	arrdem	pulling it gets file reading down to sub 1s :P
00:51	aaronj1335	that's cause it's not reading the files tho ...
00:51	aaronj1335	w/o that doall token-seq just returns an unrealized lazy-seq
00:51	arrdem	and that's a language feature
00:52	aaronj1335	but the point of it is to compare how fast clojure reads the files vs. python
00:52	aaronj1335	we could make the python really fast too by just instantiating a generator
00:52	arrdem	pr sent for your entertainment
00:53	arrdem	https://www.refheap.com/66515
00:55	arrdem	aaronj1335: so I think what's happening here
00:55	arrdem	aaronj1335: is that I haven't cooked up a way to make the random-hmm lazy on the probs-for-tokens
00:56	arrdem	aaronj1335: the profiling I've done shows pretty conclusively to me that the issue is that random-props is always forced to evaluate. Computing the random numbers is dirt cheap, the issue is doing all the map insertions I think.
00:58	aaronj1335	yea the map insertions are necessary for the algo tho. and a map shouldn't b taking up 4 G of memory
00:58	arrdem	I'd have to go in with a more heavyweight profiler than timbre to really diagnose that
00:59	aaronj1335	yea
00:59	aaronj1335	i'll have a closer look at this PR tomorrow morn, signing off for now
01:02	sdegutis	When you use clojure-test-mode.el, do you often find yourself going into the src buffer and doing M-x cider-eval-buffer just to get the tests to see the new changes?
01:03	arrdem	I have it installed but don't use it :P
01:34	felixflores	I'm trying to figure out what the `..` operator is but I get a 404 when I look for the documentation
01:34	felixflores	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/_dot_dot
01:34	felixflores	googling .. is really hard
01:34	felixflores	does anyone know what it does?
01:35	felixflores	(defn handle-change [e owner {:keys [text]}]
01:35	felixflores	(om/set-state! owner :text (.. e -target -value)))
01:35	beamso	http://clojure.org/java_interop#dot
01:35	felixflores	Trying to figure out how this does it's thing
01:35	beamso	i think (.. e -target -value) expands to e.getTarget().getValue()
01:36	felixflores	ah ok
01:36	felixflores	makes sense now
01:36	felixflores	thanks :)
01:36	felixflores	(.. System (getProperties) (get "os.name"))
01:36	felixflores	expands to:
01:36	felixflores	(. (. System (getProperties)) (get "os.name"))
01:36	felixflores	this was also useful
01:36	felixflores	awesome
01:37	TravisD	felixflores: In the future, you could have used doc to learn about it
01:37	TravisD	,(doc ..)
01:37	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); form => fieldName-symbol or (instanceMethodName-symbol args*) Expands into a member access (.) of the first member on the first argument, followed by the next member on the result, etc. For instance: (.. System (getProperties) (get \"os.name\")) expands to: (. (. System (getProperties)) (get \"os.name\")) but is easier to write, read, and understand."
01:38	felixflores	oh snap. Of course.
01:39	turbofail	i wish i could get docstrings for java junk
01:39	turbofail	instead of having to wade through HTML
01:39	turbofail	i guess there is a way to do it but i haven't set it up
01:39	beamso	i kinda like wading through java api html
01:40	beamso	better than wading through ruby api html
01:40	felixflores	I just had a brain fart, and forgot I can do that in the repl, probably because I'm just reading a blog.
02:39	jph-	nice to see the crypto-password update
02:53	sid_	Hi, I've been working on a clojure project using luminus using selmer for UI design. Most of the functions that I've written reutrns an html page. Now, I've started with testing. Can anyone help me as to how can I test these functions(i.e those returning html pages with selmer tags)?
03:05	sorenmacbeth	hey all
03:05	sorenmacbeth	is there something less gross than this?
03:05	sorenmacbeth	(merge-with #(merge-with + %1 %2) {"a" {"b" 1}} {"a" {"b" 1}})
03:05	sorenmacbeth	{"a" {"b" 2}}
03:07	arrdem	I doubt it... that isn't too nasty IMO
03:08	arrdem	I mean you could write a custom recursive merge, but if all your data is only two levels deep why bother.
03:12	sid_	Hi, I've been working on a clojure project using luminus using selmer for UI design. Most of the functions that I've written returns an html page. Now, I've started with testing. Can anyone help me as to how can I test these functions(i.e those returning html pages with selmer tags)?
03:16	beamso	sid_: refactor the functions to test the maps being passed to selmer rather than the html coming back from selmer?
03:21	sid_	beamso_ Hi, I'm pretty new to testing. I'll refactor the code accordingly. Thanks :)
03:22	beamso	not a problem
03:46	jph-	are there any tricks for dealing with cyclic load dependency?
03:46	jph-	i have some functions from ns A that want functions from ns B and vice versa
03:47	jph-	is there a way to do that so an exception doesnt get thrown?
04:15	whodidthis	maybe better to refactor i'd imagine
04:23	jph-	whodidthis, thats what caused it in first place, moving a section of functions into a separate file
04:23	jph-	oh well
04:42	whodidthis	i dont think clojure reader thingie wants to bouncy bounce, symbols need to alredy be defined
04:57	sm0ke	is it possible to proxy an interface with same name and arity defintion of a function with different type?
04:58	sm0ke	i mean a function with different param types and same arity
07:10	Frozenlock	Interesting... react.js (om/quiescent/reagent) gives you tabs/tabsets for free.
07:13	yotsov	Frozenlock: that sounds interesting, can you elaborate a bit on why that is so? I am trying to learn quiescent now
07:14	Frozenlock	Well, your UI (html document) is basically generated from your atoms. There's nothing preventing you from re-using the same components again and again.
07:14	Frozenlock	Give me a sec, I'll try to upload an example
07:21	Frozenlock	yotsov: Here, my main react playground at http://hvac.io
07:21	Frozenlock	You can remove a tabset by clicking the "x" in the upper right and add another one by clicking the "split screen" button at the bottom right.
07:22	yotsov	Frozenlock: thanks a lot! I think I see what you mean now
07:33	Frozenlock	"Note: :import is only for this use case, you never use it with ClojureScript libraries" o_O
07:33	Frozenlock	Why?
07:33	clojurebot	Frozenlock: because you can't handle the truth!
07:34	beamso	is import only for java classes?
07:34	Frozenlock	Ah sorry, that's for clojurescript
07:35	Frozenlock	I'm reading this http://swannodette.github.io/2013/11/07/clojurescript-101/
07:35	beamso	oh. for the google closure compiler too.
07:36	Frozenlock	Does he mean that :import isn't usually required, or that we shouldn't use it?
07:38	beamso	it looks like it's just to shorten the references to google closure constructors
07:38	beamso	i.e. Jsonp. instead of goog.net/Jsonp.
07:39	Frozenlock	phew... I used :import quite a few times with goog closure stuff and was wondering if it was a mistake.
08:46	whodidthis	how do i check if a javascript environment has window to not try to evaluate js/window specific stuff in nashorn
08:53	nbeloglazov	whodidthis: did you try (when js/window (do-window-specific-stuff)) ?
08:55	whodidthis	sure, throws "window not defined"
08:56	whodidthis	i guess i could try catch that but hopefully theres something less rough to use
08:57	whodidthis	or keep om stuff and event handling stuff in separate projects so nashorn would use only the om part but thats somewhat rough too
09:11	nbeloglazov	What do you need nashorn for? Testing?
09:11	whodidthis	server side rendering
09:12	whodidthis	also meh, tried to set var window = false on nashorn but then nashorn cant eval react
09:13	sdegutis	When you use clojure-test-mode.el, do you often find yourself going into the src buffer and doing M-x cider-eval-buffer just to get the tests to see the new changes?
09:13	sdegutis	Seems like I'm missing something, but I checked the docs and don't see what I'm missing.
09:31	sdegutis	Ah, there's lein-test-refresh, prism, and quickie, all for auto-re-running clojure.test suite when a file changes.
09:31	sdegutis	Can anyone recommend one?
09:43	sdegutis	Meh Prism works fine.
10:10	sdegutis	Okay, apparently you need to call (flush) before you call (read-line). Don't forget it.
10:40	RickInAtlanta	I want to experiment with websockets between clojure and clojurescript. It looks like aleph and http-kit are libraries I should look at. Any others, and any way to choose between them?
10:43	luxbock	this is kind of a silly question but how do I check what version of nrepl I am running, and how can I upgrade it?
10:50	jph-	RickInAtlanta, i really liked this article when i was experimenting with websockets http://samrat.me/blog/2013/07/clojure-websockets-with-http-kit/
10:50	RickInAtlanta	jph- awesome, thanks.
10:51	jph-	he has a second one after that as well
10:51	jph-	worth bookmarking
10:57	jph-	is there any good articles/libraries related to managing worker queues in clojure
10:57	jph-	i have a basic one, but i'd like to be able to look inside it, for instance to see how many jobs remain
10:57	jph-	i'm wondering if there's something that does that kind of thing already
10:57	Anderkent	Goddamnit, getting bug reports just after promoting a non-snapshot version makes me feel so bad... If only you made that report a week ago!
10:58	jph-	Anderkent, my plan is to never call a library production ready ;)
10:58	jph-	alpha forever
10:59	hyPiRion	Anderkent: bugfix release?
10:59	hyPiRion	it's just to add in a .1 at the end. I did that when I screwed up the deployment once :p
10:59	jph-	yeh i was about to announce 0.2.0 of something, realised i forgot to test something, quickly pushed 0.2.1
10:59	jph-	hehe
11:00	Anderkent	yeah, I mean it's totally irrational, the bug isnt even that big of a deal I think
11:00	Anderkent	it just offends my sensibilities to have published something that's not perfect, and it'll be there forever, bringing shame to everyone involved
11:00	Anderkent	:P
11:00	wink	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning#TeX ;)
11:01	hyPiRion	Anderkent: So you always write perfect bug-free code at first attempt? =)
11:01	Anderkent	jph-: a quick googling brings up simple-queue, but I'm not sure how it compares to your thing
11:01	Anderkent	hyPiRion: no, I never publish without being anxious and ashamed
11:01	Anderkent	:P
11:01	hyPiRion	hehe
11:02	hyPiRion	I think bug reports are nice, it means people at least use my libraries
11:02	Anderkent	sure, I love bug reports. I just hate publishing non-snapshot versions
11:02	hyPiRion	yeah
11:10	Anderkent	I wish 'no matching method found' would include the signature it was looing for in the error message... It's so useless right now
11:16	shep-home	So, tools.namespace.repl/refresh is pretty great
11:16	jph-	shep-home, yes
11:16	shep-home	but can I add in an extra resource to the dependency tree?
11:17	jph-	shep-home, especially when you discover having a dev/user.clj profile for development
11:17	fro_	I'm trying to decide which version of "The Joy of Clojure" to buy. Second Edition is
11:17	fro_	EAP
11:17	RickInAtlanta	fro_: get version 2
11:17	RickInAtlanta	er, second edition
11:17	shep-home	jph-: Yup, I'm starting to build up a global user.clj at the moment, Don't need per-project yet :-)
11:18	fro_	ok, thx
11:18	shep-home	I have this file as a resource, and I load that into one of my namespaces
11:18	jph-	shep-home, i dont know how i lived without it, but you kinda need to see it in action for the penny to drop
11:18	shep-home	and I'd like refresh to notice that and reload the namespace, even though that .clj file hasnt changed
11:19	jph-	when i refresh, my user.clj gets reloaded as well
11:19	jph-	so can't you put a trigger in there?
11:20	shep-home	jph-: not sure I follow. I have a resources/foo file, and then bar.clj loads that file as a def (more or less)
11:21	shep-home	so, if I edit the resource, I'd like it to get reloaded in the bar ns
11:21	jph-	hrmm
11:21	shep-home	I don't expect tools.namespace to figure that out
11:21	jph-	well
11:21	jph-	you can setup a filesystem watcher
11:21	shep-home	but I would like to be able to go out of my way to tell it
11:21	jph-	that could do something when a change is detected
11:21	shep-home	hmm
11:21	jph-	with fs library
11:22	jph-	https://github.com/derekchiang/Clojure-Watch
11:24	shep-home	Would you suggest basically touching the .clj file when the resource is updated?
11:26	jph-	not sure
11:26	jph-	im wondering how ring-devel does it's dynamic loading
11:26	jph-	if it has any filesystem watchers under the hood
11:29	mpenet	,(with-meta nil {})
11:29	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
11:31	trptcolin	ring-devel uses https://github.com/weavejester/ns-tracker
11:31	mpenet	kind of wanted this to work, but I understand the mess that implies...
11:32	xeqi	TimMc: the issue was nested params will create a vector from q[]=. then hiccup renders out the vector as a node
11:34	xeqi	TimMc: q= would escape properly when used, but since q= and q[]= both assign :q ....
11:36	shep-home	trptcolin: Any idea if ring/ns-tracker has a way of manually adding to the dependency graph?
11:36	shep-home	(or if it can follow resources or other non-clj files)
11:37	mpenet	xeqi: I gave up on this, I just pass json in request bodies. It's hassle free at least
11:38	Anderkent	how do I fix the criterium/lein warning? (tiered compilation). Do I have to build a jar?
11:38	mpenet	ElasticSearch works like this too, it's not as ugly as it sounds
11:39	trptcolin	shep-home: adding source dirs is easy, but heavier stuff will require some grossness (re-def'ing, alter-var-root, etc)
11:41	shep-home	trptcolin: so, the file in question isn't a clj file, so a source dir doesn't make sense (I think...)
11:42	shep-home	can you shed some more light on the grossness you describe?
11:42	TimMc	xeqi: Oh! Lovely, yes. So people could basically specify a hiccup tree in the request?
11:46	xeqi	TimMc: basically yeah
11:48	AeroNotix	can I put auth in the base project.clj file?
11:48	AeroNotix	it's for an internal work project.
11:48	AeroNotix	There's no reason i
11:48	AeroNotix	it needs to use the ~/.lein/profiles.clj file
11:48	trptcolin	shep-home: you can always do things like alter-var-root or `(in-ns 'foo) (defn existing-fn [] new-implementation)`
11:48	trptcolin	but that's typically a last resort
11:49	mpenet	AeroNotix: https://github.com/weavejester/environ
11:49	AeroNotix	mpenet: no
11:49	AeroNotix	mpenet: for LEIN
11:49	AeroNotix	nevermind, found it
11:50	clgv	yay auth data in a version control system yippie!
11:51	AeroNotix	clgv: it's an internal project for people who are too fucking lazy to create accounts on our archiva server. What do you want me to do?
11:51	AeroNotix	it's authentication for building the application, not anything else.
11:51	AeroNotix	Take it elsewhere, I know it's fucking dumb but I work with fucking dumn.
11:51	AeroNotix	so that's how it has to be
11:51	clgv	config file consisting of a simple clojure map ^^
11:51	AeroNotix	clgv: but still, it's outside of vcs. So people can't just clone and have it owrk
11:51	AeroNotix	work
11:52	clgv	they can copy it from a protected shared folder
11:52	AeroNotix	clgv: > lazy people
11:52	AeroNotix	how can I make this clearer
11:52	AeroNotix	I'm introducing clojure at work -- anything which is a manual step makes them squirm
11:53	clgv	they are developers as well?
11:53	AeroNotix	They are
11:53	AeroNotix	clgv: please don't be so obtuse -- you know these kind of people exist.
11:54	Anderkent	AeroNotix: can you just disable auth on the server then? Same result :P
11:54	clgv	AeroNotix: do they have their maven credentials in the vcs as well? (I am guessing you use java)
11:54	AeroNotix	Anderkent: no, it's no the same result.
11:54	AeroNotix	clgv: we're Erlang otherwise
11:55	AeroNotix	Anderkent: definitely not the same result.
11:55	Anderkent	hm, how is it different?
11:55	AeroNotix	Anderkent: the repo is private
11:56	Anderkent	hm, so there's people who could access the build system but not the repository?
11:56	AeroNotix	Anderkent: they need to access project dependencies.
11:56	AeroNotix	project dependencies are on our private archiva server, hence needing the auth
11:56	AeroNotix	the project itself is on a private github repo
11:58	Anderkent	hm, I guess that's actually fair enough
11:58	AeroNotix	thanks
12:00	jph-	im rather confused about what "swagger" is meant for. Is it like liberator for publishing a rest api?
12:03	Anderkent	swagger's a spec for describing REST apis in a language-agnostic way, so that other things can for example automatically generate a wrapper for your api
12:03	Anderkent	i think
12:05	cbp	what a terrible name
12:15	justin_smith	clgv: I have a project in progress that puts a clojure map into an aes128 encrypted file, idea being that you would have an authentication file for developers of a given organization, that isn't in any repo, and the specific creds for a project can be encrypted and in the repo (ideally it would also be a private repo for good measure)
12:16	justin_smith	https://github.com/noisesmith/cryptlj
12:16	clgv	justin_smith: AeroNotix could be interested ^^
12:16	justin_smith	ahh, oops, yeah, AeroNotix you may find that lib useful
12:17	AeroNotix	That readme is not entirely helpful
12:17	AeroNotix	What exactly do I have to do?
12:17	justin_smith	https://github.com/noisesmith/cryptlj/blob/master/test/cryptlj/disk_test.clj
12:17	AeroNotix	ok so it encrypts files?
12:18	AeroNotix	How does this tie into me wanting to use passwords in a project.clj
12:18	justin_smith	it has functions to encrypt / decrypt edn
12:18	AeroNotix	The passwords are for repositories
12:18	justin_smith	so if you have native clojure data that shouldn't be plaintext in your repo, it simplifies keeping things secure without making deployment / running too convoluted
12:18	AeroNotix	not for anything which is used at runtime
12:19	AeroNotix	but this looks like it's for application code
12:19	AeroNotix	or use at runtime
12:19	AeroNotix	and stuff needs to be already on the person's box to decrypt
12:19	justin_smith	you can call it from inside project.clj if you include it as a project plugin
12:19	oinksoft	the page for -?> shows examples for -?>>: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.core/-_q%3E
12:20	justin_smith	using `unquoting
12:20	AeroNotix	I just needed a way to have archiva repos accessible the moment you clone a project
12:20	oinksoft	is -?> available in 1.3.0? how do i use it? i am not able to use clojure.contrib.core as shown in the examples for -?>>
12:20	AeroNotix	justin_smith: it still needs the decrypt keys
12:20	justin_smith	yes, but those can be elsewhere
12:20	Anderkent	you could in theory use that to encrypt the credentials in your project file then decrypt with password-encrypted key, so your dev only needs to know the project password. but feels unnecessary
12:20	technomancy	AeroNotix: have you tried putting the creds in the URL? https://user@pass:server.net/whatevs
12:21	oinksoft	(i understand how to use -?> and -?>>, but it's an undefined symbol)
12:21	AeroNotix	technomancy: what's the difference here?
12:21	technomancy	AeroNotix: it's just all in one place that way
12:21	Anderkent	oinksoft: 1.3 is pretty old. Also clojure.contrib is no more
12:21	technomancy	I am just curious if that would even work; I don't know
12:21	AeroNotix	technomancy: probably would
12:21	justin_smith	Anderkent: AeroNotix: use case: client wants to access source for the project you made for them, but you also need access to company (not client) specific keys
12:21	justin_smith	(in order to deploy for example)
12:22	AeroNotix	justin_smith: so that doesn't help me here
12:22	oinksoft	Anderkent: ok, i was studying a book that contains a project.clj specifying 1.3.0
12:22	justin_smith	AeroNotix: OK
12:22	cbp	oinksoft: that macro is called some-> now
12:22	oinksoft	Anderkent: but the docs show -?> being available for 1.2.0 and i believe that if this can work, i should be able to get it to
12:23	AeroNotix	oh man, some->!
12:23	AeroNotix	Nice
12:23	justin_smith	AeroNotix: in general it should be useful if not every user of the repo should have access to all credentials used in the repo, but if that isn't your situation then it probably wouldn't be useful for you
12:23	oinksoft	is there something like hoogle for clojure, because i can't find some->
12:24	cbp	(doc some->)
12:24	clojurebot	"([expr & forms]); When expr is not nil, threads it into the first form (via ->), and when that result is not nil, through the next etc"
12:24	cbp	oinksoft: http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/some->
12:24	Anderkent	,(meta #'some->)
12:24	clojurebot	{:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name some->, :arglists ([expr & forms]), :column 1, ...}
12:25	cbp	Sadly no, docs are pretty terrible in clojure
12:25	hiredman	oinksoft: -?> was never in clojure proper, they were in the contrib library
12:25	Anderkent	hm, doesn't print :added, but it's there! (1.5)
12:25	oinksoft	hiredman: ok, keep in mind i am totally new to clojure so i see a page like the one i linked and think it is in clojure
12:25	oinksoft	hiredman: (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.core/-_q%3E)
12:25	oinksoft	cbp: thanks
12:26	Anderkent	yeah clojuredocs is kinda bad about this
12:26	hiredman	oinksoft: contrib is sort of the tip off there
12:26	hiredman	(in the url)
12:26	oinksoft	ok, so clojuredocs is not affiliated w/ clojure project
12:26	oinksoft	good to know ;)
12:26	Anderkent	hiredman: only if you know about clojure.contrib being gone
12:26	Anderkent	oinksoft: yeah. but the search on clojure.org sucks. So there's that ;S
12:26	oinksoft	hehe
12:26	cbp	ughhhh
12:26	hiredman	Anderkent: even when it wasn't "gone" it was a distinct library you had to use
12:27	oinksoft	ok, thanks a bunch. i like these -> operators :)
12:27	hiredman	Anderkent: the things in it weren't just available
12:27	cbp	So what would be required to fix the online docs? ..without hurting anyone's sensibilities
12:27	Anderkent	hiredman: I know, but that's hardly obvious for someone who just searches for a symbol in clojuredocs
12:28	Anderkent	though I guess clojuredocs covers many non-core libs?
12:28	Anderkent	dunno don't really use it
12:30	oinksoft	sorry, another documentation question. why do the clojure docs refer to 1.5 as the stable release, but the homepage refers to 1.6?
12:31	cbp	because like i said.. it's pretty terrible
12:31	oinksoft	ok :)
12:31	justin_smith	"community-powered"
12:31	technomancy	the repl should be your ground truth
12:32	technomancy	usually you only fall back to the browser for things you can't find from your repl
12:32	technomancy	(this does not include docstrings)
12:32	justin_smith	they still link to clojure-contrib
12:32	TimMc	When there is no spec, everything is within spec. :-)
12:33	oinksoft	technomancy: but the repl's only going to show me what i already know about
12:33	justin_smith	oinksoft: clojure.repl/apropos helps there
12:33	zenoli	Is there a straightforward way to wrap a binary file into a Lamina channel? These conversions are giving me fits.
12:33	oinksoft	technomancy: i am looking at the clojure source repository, is there a way to build some structured html docs, like with erlang and most langs?
12:33	justin_smith	oinksoft: also clojure.repl/source
12:33	justin_smith	(in the source code for functions you know, you will see calls to ones you don't)
12:33	technomancy	oinksoft: sure, but typically it doesn't make a lot of sense
12:34	technomancy	apropos, source, and doc are a lot more useful
12:34	justin_smith	the cheat sheet is imperfect, but still helpful http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
12:34	technomancy	erlang needs html docs because its repl is terrible
12:34	justin_smith	exactly
12:34	justin_smith	yeah, the repl unlocks everything
12:35	oinksoft	i suppose that is one way to solve a problem!
12:35	oinksoft	thanks again
12:35	mpenet	the giant root namespace thing doesn't help either
12:35	AeroNotix	technomancy: s/needs html docs/a complete rewrite/g s/it's repl//
12:36	oinksoft	AeroNotix: are you kidding me, you were all up on erlang literally 12mos ago
12:36	AeroNotix	oinksoft: who are you
12:36	oinksoft	AeroNotix: PigDude
12:36	AeroNotix	yeah well
12:36	AeroNotix	I have a job in erlang now, and I realise that people are just lying to themselves.
12:36	AeroNotix	daily.
12:36	oinksoft	hahaha
12:36	oinksoft	there's some truth to that
12:37	technomancy	AeroNotix: well if you're going to rewrite erlang things, the repl would be the place to start
12:37	oinksoft	AeroNotix: i'm learning clj for a job :p but i quite like it so far
12:37	AeroNotix	Erlang solves very few problems it claims to, the tooling is totally dog shit, the language is completely hamstrung in arbitrary ways, Ericsson are the worse company to be in charge of a language. Shall I continue?
12:37	AeroNotix	Don't even get me started on projects like riak
12:38	technomancy	AeroNotix: at least OTP accepts pull requests =)
12:38	oinksoft	technomancy: to be fair erlang shell will never lock you out because of its design. i've been able to lock up a clojure shell and have to kill it
12:38	AeroNotix	technomancy: sure, after they deem it could be valuable to Ericsson's internal projects
12:38	AeroNotix	if not, fuck you
12:38	technomancy	oinksoft: you can always connect from another client and kill off the misbehaving one
12:38	AeroNotix	the language is just crap -- records? Maps? C'mon. It's 2014.
12:38	technomancy	assuming you're using nrepl
12:39	oinksoft	my high level language is better than your high level language
12:39	oinksoft	or something
12:39	technomancy	AeroNotix: I got a patch to erlang.el applied pretty quickly; never would have happened with clojure.
12:39	AeroNotix	oinksoft: for reals
12:39	oinksoft	mostly the same but i see a few things i like in clojuree
12:39	AeroNotix	technomancy: that's the erlang.el stuff- there's like 2 people who are capable of properly looking after that code. So they just let anything in.
12:40	AeroNotix	oinksoft: I just did a project in Clojure amidst all our Erlang stuff. Literally. The. Best. Thing. Ever.
12:40	AeroNotix	no rebar, for 1
12:40	oinksoft	lein blows rebar out of the water i think
12:40	AeroNotix	dependency management that actually works. Good community, lively libraries, expressive language
12:40	AeroNotix	oinksoft: rebar is a cruel joke
12:40	AeroNotix	and people put up with it!
12:41	AeroNotix	It's actually worse than when we just used Makefiles for everything
12:41	AeroNotix	seriously
12:41	oinksoft	AeroNotix: customer doesn't care what tool you use to build your code
12:41	AeroNotix	oinksoft: I don't see how that's relevant.
12:41	AeroNotix	It's my sanity
12:41	technomancy	I wasted half an hour while interviewing a job applicant over a rebar bug
12:41	technomancy	it matters
12:41	oinksoft	technomancy: how did that happen?
12:42	AeroNotix	technomancy: that's not the client, though.
12:42	yotsov	AeroNotix: I am curious if you would happen to have some "internal" opinion on Dialyzer
12:42	technomancy	oinksoft: we have three rebar.config files; one for prod, one for test, and one for dev
12:42	AeroNotix	Probably rebar half-downloading things and then telling you "OH YEAH DUDE THE DEPS ARE HERE"
12:42	AeroNotix	yotsov: not worth the time, misses trivial cases, slow, touted as the jesus device
12:42	AeroNotix	does not deliver
12:42	yotsov	AeroNotix: thanks!
12:42	AeroNotix	it's fine for tiny errors, but it's so slow you'd be better off just using unit testing
12:43	yotsov	I see... only ran it on very small projects
12:43	oinksoft	some people are never satisfied :p dialyzer may not hit everything but it is a lot better than, say, pylint
12:43	technomancy	oinksoft: you have to manually specify which one you're going to use, but if you try to compile in the wrong order it'll just leave out your test-only deps entirely
12:43	AeroNotix	yotsov: we have a project with 30+ dependencies. It does not scale.
12:43	oinksoft	it has found plenty of bugs in my projects and saved me time, i like dialyzer
12:43	AeroNotix	oinksoft: then you're not testing properly.
12:43	technomancy	oinksoft: and then when you do ct_run, you don't get a stack trace to stdout, you have to go digging through like three levels of html files to find the actual problem
12:43	oinksoft	AeroNotix: OK!
12:43	AeroNotix	if you rely on dialyzer to find the kinds of bugs it does find, then I weep for your test suite
12:44	oinksoft	AeroNotix: i know i'm on irc, but you probably should think about how important "properly" is. not being aware of it, but making it the ultimate goal
12:44	technomancy	dialyzer won't even run on our codebase; it sends it into an infinite loop
12:44	oinksoft	AeroNotix: as a recovering pedant it is a tough pill to swallow
12:44	oinksoft	AeroNotix: (me)
12:45	AeroNotix	oinksoft: pedantry is good for software
12:45	AeroNotix	technomancy: it is slow
12:45	AeroNotix	technomancy: perhaps it's just taking a while
12:45	technomancy	AeroNotix: over night =)
12:45	AeroNotix	technomancy: how big is your codebase?
12:45	technomancy	I'm a fan of static analysis though; supposedly the dializer bug is fixed in 17.0, so I'll be interested in seeing what it comes up with
12:46	technomancy	AeroNotix: 6kloc
12:46	AeroNotix	technomancy: the best part is, what you mostly end up doing is putting specs on things where dialyzer got confused.
12:46	TravisD	infinity hours and 24 hours are pretty much the same
12:46	AeroNotix	So you don't change your code -- you change your specs. Dialyzer is a waste of time.
12:46	technomancy	AeroNotix: it was confirmed as a bug by kostis
12:46	AeroNotix	technomancy: perhaps
12:47	AeroNotix	I'm just saying something else entirely, just drop dialyzer and use the time on making your test suites better / higher coverage
12:47	AeroNotix	The only tool I think Erlang has which is better than in Clojure is the cover tool
12:47	AeroNotix	very good, outputs in all manner of formats and you can merge reports together
12:47	AeroNotix	so different test suites can be put together
12:48	technomancy	well that and hot upgrades
12:48	AeroNotix	Meh
12:48	AeroNotix	no-one uses hotupgrades unless they're fapping
12:48	technomancy	uuuuh
12:48	AeroNotix	Use an LB and take nodes offline
12:48	oinksoft	AeroNotix: you might be wasting brain cycles comparing the merits of clojure and erlang and their tooling this way
12:48	technomancy	it matters a lot for our cluster
12:48	AeroNotix	technomancy: explain
12:48	oinksoft	AeroNotix: considering very few projects start with "do we choose clojure or erlang? hm?"
12:49	AeroNotix	oinksoft: but they easily could
12:49	technomancy	AeroNotix: a full cluster replacement takes like three hours, and a live upgrade takes three minutes
12:49	oinksoft	AeroNotix: they'd be wasting their time
12:49	AeroNotix	oinksoft: why?
12:49	AeroNotix	technomancy: what makes that so?
12:49	oinksoft	AeroNotix: it should be an obvious decision, one made by other forces, not pure technical merit as judged by one person
12:49	oinksoft	AeroNotix: it's a big bikeshed
12:49	AeroNotix	oinksoft: do you think software is like that?
12:49	AeroNotix	if so; can I come work for you?
12:49	oinksoft	AeroNotix: the biggest bikeshed, and the biggest secret in software development right now
12:50	AeroNotix	because that's definitely not software
12:50	technomancy	AeroNotix: nodes have to sync several GB of data at boot, so we have to space out their launches so they don't bring down the DB with a thundering herd.
12:50	technomancy
12:50	AeroNotix	technomancy: load from caches? (Easy for me to say since I don't see your full architecture, but still)
12:51	technomancy	not really an option here, yeah
12:51	oinksoft	AeroNotix: you know up front if your project needs the high level features provided by clojure, or the safety provided by erlang. they're so freaking different, don't get caught up on the immutable thing
12:51	oinksoft	AeroNotix: if that doesn't decide for you, your talent and the talent in the local market does
12:51	AeroNotix	oinksoft: erlang "safety"
12:51	AeroNotix	Supervision trees. OK
12:51	oinksoft	AeroNotix: if not that, then your comfort supporting the JVM or doing erlang releases decides it for you
12:51	oinksoft	AeroNotix: erlang is slow because it's so safe ...
12:52	AeroNotix	I've rarely seen any technical decision made in such a way
12:52	oinksoft	i bet you've seen a lot of money wasted!
12:52	AeroNotix	I'd love for it to be so
12:52	oinksoft	i know i have
12:52	yotsov	I guess hotupgrade can be a nice feature... thinking of rabbitmq clusters for example
12:52	AeroNotix	For req/resp type deals? Meh
12:54	Anderkent	uh, I doubt you can actually hot upgrade rabbitmq. Or at least I wouldn't try it
12:54	Anderkent	(and I worked for 3 years at the company that wrote it)
12:54	oinksoft	relups are sort of a tarpit
12:54	Anderkent	(though I didn't work on it directly, so if you have just ignore me :P)
12:54	yotsov	Anderkent: last time we tried, 1 year ago or so, it didnt work
12:55	yotsov	Anderkent: but I believe it is a planned feature, maybe it is doable now
12:55	Anderkent	possibly, I haven't kept in touch since we sold it to vmware
12:56	Anderkent	AeroNotix: regarding the coverage reports merging, I'd love to add this to cloverage, and it will eventually get there, but I don't have much time to work on it recently
12:56	Anderkent	ugh, grammar
12:56	AeroNotix	Anderkent: for sure, it wasn't a dig at you
12:57	AeroNotix	Was just trying to emphasise how shitty the tools are in erlang that a lowly coverage tool seems to shine.
12:57	Anderkent	I really want to make cloverage run arbitrary lein tasks rather than clojure.test. And isolate the dependencies. etc. etc
12:58	AeroNotix	Anderkent: that'd be crazy good
12:58	AeroNotix	I want to start say `lein run` and then run my integration tests and then have it dump out a coverage report
12:58	AeroNotix	this is what we do with Erlang at the moment
12:59	AeroNotix	we start a release in coverage mode and then run some test suite against its API and then merge the report with the CT Test report.
12:59	AeroNotix	works very well.
13:00	technomancy	higher-order tasks; woot
13:01	gfredericks	I'm thinking test.check should not shrink characters
13:02	gfredericks	and that this might be a big deal for performance
13:03	TimMc	:-D
13:04	TimMc	gfredericks: It should shrink them by glyph area.
13:04	TimMc	e.g. dotted i becomes dotless i
13:05	gfredericks	patches welcome
13:05	Anderkent	ygh github doesnt change your notification email when you change your primary email. Wat.
13:06	AeroNotix	Anderkent: eventual consistency
13:06	AeroNotix	it probably will. Eventually. Maybe.
13:07	Anderkent	nah, I did it like a year ago and wasn't getting notifications, and only now went to notification center and noticed htat my old email was still there
13:08	AeroNotix	lolz
13:08	TimMc	Anderkent: "ygh"?
13:08	Anderkent	its like ugh but misspoken!
13:09	TimMc	Oh! I figured it was an abbreviation.
13:13	Anderkent	So, if I only have the time to watch 2-3 more talks, which clojure/west are most interesting? Watched the instaparse, with-security and predictably fast so far, all pretty cool
13:14	upwardindex	What is the solution to “Possibly confusing dependencies found”? A ton of :exclusions ?
13:20	Anderkent	kinda depends on what kind of confusing dependency it is. Sometimes you can just ignore it
13:22	upwardindex	Anderkent: any rule of thumb on whether or not you can ignore it?
13:23	Anderkent	well, if you use the dependency directly you definitely want to look into it, if there's version ranges involved you probably want to look into it, otherwise if things seem to work I wouldn't bother? I dunno I think that warning is kinda noisy
13:24	upwardindex	For example midje 1.6.3 uses two different versions of joda-time, is that a problem?
13:25	technomancy	upwardindex: depends how divergent the versions are
13:42	aka	is there a convention for putting a * (single earmuff) on the right side of a var name?
13:42	aka	it's actually a function
13:42	aka	create-handler*
13:42	aka	should that tell me something?
13:42	michaniskin1	aka: it's usually used when you're making a modified version of a function that already exsits
13:43	michaniskin1	aka: it's like x and x' in math
13:43	aka	good to know
13:43	aka	thanks :)
13:44	Anderkent	michaniskin1: aka: I usually see it when you have a macro and a function that implements the macro: (defmacro foobar [& body] (foobar* body))
13:47	michaniskin1	aka: for example: https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cemerick/pomegranate/aether.clj#L619 and https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cemerick/pomegranate/aether.clj#L723
13:47	SegFaultAX	Yea. Usually the * version is some sort of base version, and the unstarred is a macro or helper function.
13:47	aka	ahhh I see
13:48	Anderkent	yeah, think of the * as 'peeking under the hood'
13:48	SegFaultAX	Or https://github.com/korma/Korma/blob/master/src/korma/core.clj#L39 and https://github.com/korma/Korma/blob/master/src/korma/core.clj#L114
13:52	technomancy	basically means "I can't think of a better name for this function"
14:00	jjl`	that's one of the most common problems i have in clojure. it's inviting abstraction, but naming those abstractions can be hard
14:00	aka	not really
14:00	SegFaultAX	jjl`: thingy* other-thingy etc. are perfectly understandable.
14:00	aka	you just add a * at the end
14:00	aka	:D
14:01	SegFaultAX	AbstractThingyFactoryProviderBean
14:01	gfredericks	if you mix postfix ' and * you have an exponential naming space
14:02	rasmusto	s/exponential/exceptional
14:02	clgv	SegFaultAX: MethodValueDecoratorListenerPublisherPrinter
14:02	Anderkent	s/exceptional/ex'*'''*
14:02	aka	we can be back to Java like madness in no time
14:03	TravisD	gfredericks: What do you mean by exponential naming space?
14:03	TravisD	exponential in the length of the names?
14:03	gfredericks	no, exponential options by length of name
14:03	TravisD	ah, that's what I meant
14:04	TravisD	The subset of names with a fixed length grows exponentially with the length
14:04	martinklepsch	Is clutch the way to go for clj + couchdb?
14:04	martinklepsch	https://github.com/clojure-clutch/clutch
14:04	michaniskin1	i like using the "prime" naming, personally
14:04	gfredericks	,(-> (rand-int 1000000) (Long/toString 2) (->> (replace {\0 \' \1 \*}) (apply str "thingy")) symbol)
14:04	clojurebot	thingy''''''**'''''
14:05	michaniskin1	do-foo, do-foo', do-foo''
14:05	malyn	I feel like this is a key problem in most (all?) programming languages; I want to create an abstraction and describe what it is, but I don't want to actually go so far as to give it a name.
14:05	clgv	martinklepsch: if there is a clojurewerkz project for couchdb that's probably the better options in terms of documentation
14:05	gfredericks	,(defn function-name [] (-> (rand-int 1000000) (Long/toString 2) (->> (replace {\0 \' \1 \*}) (apply str "thingy")) symbol))
14:05	clojurebot	#'sandbox/function-name
14:05	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: No stupid, I told you the function was called thingy*''''''''*''
14:05	gfredericks	(function-name)
14:05	malyn	The -> thing is nice there, but then I can't describe what is happening without interspersing comments between each line. (which maybe is okay?)
14:05	gfredericks	,(function-name)
14:05	clojurebot	thingy''*'''''''**'
14:05	martinklepsch	clgv, cant find any
14:05	gfredericks	,(function-name)
14:05	clojurebot	thingy*'''''''''*'''
14:05	llasram	do-foo, do-foo', do-foo′, do-foo″, do-foo‴
14:05	SegFaultAX	llasram: Haha, nice.
14:05	SegFaultAX	If only ` wasn't syntax quote
14:06	michaniskin1	llasram: that is actually pretty nice
14:06	gfredericks	malyn: I think comments are fine
14:06	clgv	martinklepsch: ah right they had one for mongodb not couchdb...
14:07	malyn	gfredericks: Agreed. Although then I feel compelled to make each part of -> fit on a single line. And if it doesn't I then want to go and defn the thing, which creates the whole naming problem again...
14:07	martinklepsch	clgv, nevermind then, thanks!
14:08	gfredericks	,(function-name)
14:08	clojurebot	thingy'''''''''*''''
14:08	gfredericks	malyn: ^solves your naming problem
14:08	malyn	gfredericks: Yeah, thanks. :)
14:08	gfredericks	anytime
14:08	gfredericks	there are at least a few more where that came from
14:09	Anderkent	I'm partial to using non-breaking whitespace as the suffix myself
14:09	technomancy	heh
14:09	technomancy	I actually filed a bug over that
14:09	rasmusto	,(let [foo' 'inc] (eval `(~foo' 1)))
14:09	clojurebot	2
14:09	TravisD	What's an example of a non-breaking white space?
14:09	Anderkent	I actually got bit by that because I copy-pasted stuff from github :P
14:10	Anderkent	and my editor wasn't showing the difference by default
14:10	rasmusto	i wish I knew what I was doing
14:10	clgv	rasmusto: incrementing 1, no`
14:10	Anderkent	TravisD: U+00A0
14:10	gfredericks	incrementers gonna increment
14:11	TravisD	Anderkent: Ah, I was hoping you'd just paste it :(
14:11	rasmusto	~inc
14:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:11	technomancy	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-419
14:11	TravisD	Here it is: " "
14:12	rasmusto	(= , ~)?
14:13	clgv	,(long " ")
14:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:13	clgv	,(long (first " "))
14:13	clojurebot	32
14:13	TravisD	:P
14:13	TravisD	I LIED
14:13	clgv	:P
14:14	Anderkent	,(long (first " "))
14:15	clojurebot	160
14:15	justin_smith	Anderkent: I like how my emacs gives that a bright blue underline
14:15	TravisD	,(let [test 10, test 5] [test test])
14:15	clojurebot	[5 5]
14:16	TravisD	hmm
14:16	justin_smith	,' _-_ _-_ _-_ _-_ _-_ _-_ _-_ _-_
14:16	clojurebot	�_-_�_-_�_-_�_-_�_-_�_-_�_-_�_-_�
14:16	clgv	that's hopefully not suprising to you ;)
14:16	Anderkent	,(let [foo 1 foo 2] [foo foo ])
14:16	clojurebot	[1 2]
14:16	clgv	ah lol
14:16	TravisD	oh, I copied Anderkent's space character, but my IRC client must not like it
14:16	Anderkent	it's option-space if you're on a mac
14:16	Anderkent	makes it easy!
14:17	gfredericks	non-breaking spaces for the busy coder
14:17	TravisD	Ah, my client just does nothing when I type option-space :(
14:17	TravisD	if I'm ever at risk of losing a job I'll be sure to litter some of those in the code :)
14:17	technomancy	throw in some page break characters too
14:17	technomancy	those are great
14:18	Anderkent	I'd reverse the casualty there
14:18	justin_smith	&' _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_
14:18	lazybot	⇒ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_
14:18	sdegutis	I've concluded that I actually want mocks right now. It's feeling very strange to test helper functions that should otherwise be private. I'd like to test the things they're used in, but they're only used to build up a call to another function with very specific args. Or perhaps I've just designed my whole program badly.
14:18	TravisD	Anderkent: heh, yeah, that's probably the more likely scenario
14:18	technomancy	I should open a bug report on github for the fact that they don't render page breaks
14:18	technomancy	it's pretty lame
14:19	Anderkent	sdegutis: you can test private functions though?
14:19	sdegutis	For example, this function is tested weirdly: https://github.com/sdegutis/billow/blob/master/test/billow/service_test.clj#L13-L22
14:19	justin_smith	&' _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_ _-'-_
14:19	lazybot	⇒ _-'-_
14:19	justin_smith	ahh, it appears page break is whitespace
14:19	sdegutis	Anderkent: Yes but that's just covering the problem up. I shouldn't be touching that function. I should let it be free to evolve how it wishes.
14:19	rasmusto	justin_smith: is this L-systems again?
14:19	justin_smith	hah, it should be
14:19	michaniskin1	how do you guys deal with git conflicts and paredit mode?
14:19	sdegutis	I think I want to create a fake service that actually produces real side-effects that mimic the real service..
14:19	michaniskin1	^ in emacs btw
14:20	rasmusto	michaniskin1: evil-mode
14:20	sdegutis	Which sounds terrifying, but like it's The Right Thing To Do™.
14:20	justin_smith	michaniskin1: C-w always deletes
14:20	rasmusto	michaniskin1: yeah, x in evil-mode does something similar, use C-w
14:20	Anderkent	sdegutis: I don't think I follow, if you only care that it prepares the args to a different function right, why not just intercept the call to tht function and make sure the args are right?
14:21	michaniskin1	thanks, but i was wondering if there was something more structural, like somehow preserving the paredit stuff while resolving the conflicts
14:21	Anderkent	midje makes it easy with (provided (function "excpected" "args) => :result), though I'm not sure about side effects, these are a bit messier to add
14:21	sdegutis	Anderkent: That's still testing private implementation details which doesn't give the implementation any room to evolve.
14:21	justin_smith	michaniskin1: like some kind of magit / ediff / paredit hybrid?
14:22	lemonodor	i’ve decided that the midje syntax tricks around => cause more trouble than they’re worth.
14:22	sdegutis	We had a /lot/ of trouble with this in production code last year, took a while to change it so we only test side-effects.
14:22	michaniskin1	justin_smith: is that a thing?
14:22	sdegutis	lemonodor: how so?
14:22	justin_smith	michaniskin1: no, just thinking that this is what you are asking for
14:22	technomancy	lemonodor: agreed
14:22	justin_smith	though ediff-merge may give you an interactive resolution rather than leaving conflict marks in the file iirc
14:23	justin_smith	or magit-merge I mean, or something like that
14:23	Anderkent	well yeah I kinda dislike fact and =>, but like the mocking mechanism. Is there something else that makes top-down testing easy?
14:23	lemonodor	sdegutis: harder to read, can screw up editor indentation. maybe responsible for the somewhat non-specific line numbers i see in stack traces?
14:23	justin_smith	michaniskin1: https://coderwall.com/p/mcrwag
14:24	sdegutis	lemonodor: ah makes sense
14:24	lemonodor	https://github.com/marick/Midje/issues/235 btw
14:24	technomancy	lemonodor: many of us feel that way about most of midje fwiw =)
14:25	justin_smith	(inc technomancy)
14:25	lazybot	⇒ 102
14:25	Anderkent	I also dislike how you can't reuse facts
14:25	sdegutis	Ah good old backwards-incompatibility, the bane of those who've coded while drunk.
14:25	technomancy	"This is clever and novel." <- not intended as a compliment
14:25	justin_smith	Anderkent: reminds me of that one Talking Heads song "facts never do what they're supposed to do"
14:26	sdegutis	Cleverness and novelty have bit me so often and so hard that I refuse to hear them out anymore.
14:26	sdegutis	Sometimes they manage to successfully sneak in, but that's another story.
14:28	sdegutis	Time to write some SFTP based code.
14:28	michaniskin1	justin_smith: awesome i think that's maybe what i'm looking for
14:28	lemonodor	i seem to remember a remarkable amount of code in midje dedicated to making that clever parsing possible, too, which isn’t a good sign.
14:30	Anderkent	yeah I once tried to read through that code, but gave up very quickly
14:32	jjttjj	anyone ever play with opencv from clojure? I'm dieing trying to get this to work https://gist.github.com/nblumoe/5468625
14:33	lemonodor	jjttjj: i haven’t but there’s https://github.com/gigasquid/clj-drone#opencv-face-recognition
14:33	jjttjj	I have all the opencv stuff setup correctly and can make calls to it's libs but .detectMultiScale is just no returning anything
14:34	jjttjj	lemonodor: awesome thanks
14:34	aaelony	jjttjj: This works pretty well: http://docs.opencv.org/2.4/doc/tutorials/introduction/clojure_dev_intro/clojure_dev_intro.html
14:34	jared314	does anyone know if test.check going to support clj pre-1.4 (1.2.1 or 1.3)?
14:35	jjttjj	aaelony: yeah i have that one working it's when i try to translate the face recognition tut from java wheen i run into problems
14:36	clgv	jared314: if you are on 1.3 where is the problem to use 1.4 or even 1.5? I thought only the 1.3 upgrade was often hard work
14:36	aaelony	jjttjj: makes sense, be interested to learn what you discover.
14:37	jared314	clgv: writing tests for another project that is trying to support 1.2.1 to 1.6
14:37	jared314	clgv: so, not my choice to upgrade
14:38	gfredericks	jared314: do you know what exactly is incompatible with the older versions?
14:48	amalloy	jared314: after a quick scan, i don't see anything in the source that requires any clojure version newer than 1.2
14:48	jared314	gfredericks: it gave me an error about ex-info in the generative ns
14:49	gfredericks	ah that'll do it
14:50	gfredericks	does somebody have a lib somewhere for monkey-patching ex-info stuff onto older clojures?
14:50	gfredericks	is that a terrible idea?
14:52	llasram	Is that a terrible idea??
14:52	lazybot	llasram: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
14:52	llasram	gfredericks: See, it's fine. Just needed more question marks.
14:52	technomancy	gfredericks: slingshot kind of gets you ex-info ish stuff in 1.2
14:53	gfredericks	technomancy: they don't put it in clojure.core though amirite?
14:54	technomancy	heavens no
14:54	gfredericks	so this doesn't help with tricking a lib into running on older clojure
14:54	amalloy	gfredericks: it strikes me as a poorish idea: nothing bad will happen from adding those two extra functions, assuming you can do it, but trying to run code that expects clojure 1.4(?) on 1.2 instead will have more problems than just missing ex-info, and they might be hidden if you fix the obvious failures
14:55	jared314	amalloy: is there already something to handle running a test suite in one version and the lib in another?
14:56	jared314	amalloy: like lien does the inject thing
14:56	amalloy	sure, you can change your org.clojure/clojure dependency in the :test profile, but...
14:56	gfredericks	"poorish is a clojure library for monkey-patching ex-info &c onto older clojures."
14:57	amalloy	gfredericks: my consulting rate is $10 per excellent library name
14:58	amalloy	poorish is actually a fun little double-entendre there: you're trying to run on an impoverished runtime
14:59	gfredericks	heck you could add all sorts of addable features
14:59	gfredericks	and let the user pick which ones to patch
14:59	justin_smith	a-la-carte upgrade
14:59	rasmusto	~a-la-carte
14:59	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:00	gfredericks	rejected names: what-could-go-wrong
15:00	jared314	i-didn’t-say-it-was-a-good-idea
15:00	amalloy	gfredericks: i'd like to see you support parsing symbols like foo' but only in files chosen by project.clj
15:02	gfredericks	I bumped the clojur on codeq yesterday so it would parse :/
15:02	justin_smith	,:/
15:02	clojurebot	:/
15:02	justin_smith	&:/
15:02	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :/
15:02	gfredericks	amalloy: a double patch -- one on a clojure function for doing reading or something, and another selectively done in the first to change the regexes
15:02	rasmusto	,::/
15:02	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::/>
15:03	gfredericks	,'&:/
15:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: &:/>
15:03	justin_smith	grumpy man refuses to wear a bow, but will wear a feather
15:03	amalloy	,clojure-version
15:03	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
15:03	rasmusto	,(prn ::/)
15:04	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::/>
15:04	amalloy	i wonder why :/ is valid now. i know they changed symbol parsing, but i didn't expect it to apply to keywords
15:04	gfredericks	doesn't the keyword parser delegate to the symbol parser?
15:04	gfredericks	although that still doesn't explain it
15:04	gfredericks	if that were the case you'd expect :/ to have always been valid
15:05	gfredericks	I retract all my theories and retreat in shame
15:05	rasmusto	and whats up with the namespace-qualified one not working?
15:05	rasmusto	,:foo// ; ?
15:05	clojurebot	:foo//
15:05	rasmusto	,::/ ; ?
15:05	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::/>
15:06	justin_smith	,:sandbox//
15:06	clojurebot	:sandbox//
15:06	justin_smith	AHA
15:06	justin_smith	or not
15:06	rasmusto	ns
15:06	rasmusto	,ns
15:06	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
15:07	gfredericks	they never sent an email on clojure-dev about 1.6.0 did they?
15:10	cbp	Is it safe to assume the user will always see the info map of an ex-info? or should I include the data in the exception string too?
15:10	gfredericks	definitely not safe to assume that
15:10	gfredericks	lots of tools just print .getMessage
15:10	llasram	cbp: I personally use the string for humans and the map for programs. Sometimes that means duplicating between them
15:11	cbp	hmph
15:11	cbp	ok thanks
15:11	gfredericks	would be cool to use strint to be able to interpolate values from the map into the message
15:11	gfredericks	e.g. (ex-info''' "You passed me {thing}" {:thing x})
15:12	amalloy	gfredericks: that'll be in clojure 1.9. why not include it in your backporting library?
15:12	gfredericks	incubating is just a generalization of backportation
15:12	gfredericks	or a special case of?
15:14	tgoossens	What is a clean way to get all values out of an indexable list at odd indices ?
15:15	justin_smith	,(map second (partition 2 (range 10))) ; tgoossens
15:15	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
15:15	tgoossens	justin_smith, thanks
15:16	justin_smith	with partition-all you would get a nil at the end if there were an odd number of items in the list
15:16	tgoossens	hmm
15:17	justin_smith	so it depends on your problem whether you want that behavior or the partition behavior
15:17	tgoossens	it will do :)
15:17	tgoossens	(your solution )
15:17	justin_smith	,(map second (partition-all 2 (range 9)))
15:17	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 nil)
15:17	justin_smith	,(map second (partition 2 (range 9)))
15:17	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7)
15:18	tgoossens	i see
15:18	tgoossens	thanks for pointing that out :)
15:18	justin_smith	np
15:18	tgoossens	wow it has been a long time I've been able to use such pleasant abstract functions
15:18	tgoossens	currently working with fortran :p
15:19	tgoossens	clojure is always a pleasure again
15:19	amalloy	justin_smith: uh, don't you just want (range 1 10 2)?
15:20	amalloy	,(range 1 10 2)
15:20	amalloy	&(range 1 2 10)
15:20	lazybot	⇒ (1)
15:20	amalloy	&(range 1 10 2)
15:20	lazybot	⇒ (1 3 5 7 9)
15:20	amalloy	clojurebot: have i wronged you?
15:20	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
15:20	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:21	Averell	i would say i liked the partition performance more :)
15:23	gfredericks	,clojure-version
15:23	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
15:23	justin_smith	amalloy: he wanted to get odd items of an arbitrary list
15:23	justin_smith	range was just the example
15:24	justin_smith	(though I would not be surprised to see a more elegant way to get the odd items of a list either)
15:24	noprompt	the new version of clojurescript.test displays the "Ran N tests containing M assertions..." message twice, does anyone else notice that?
15:28	justin_smith	,:𝔤𝔯𝔞𝔳𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔰
15:28	clojurebot	:????????????????
15:28	justin_smith	&:𝔤𝔯𝔞𝔳𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔰
15:28	lazybot	⇒ :𝔤𝔯𝔞𝔳𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔰
15:29	justin_smith	(inc lazybot)
15:29	lazybot	⇒ 23
15:29	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:31	Anderkent	,:to the moon!
15:31	clojurebot	:to�the�moon!
15:31	gfredericks	,(defn odds [l] (lazy-seq (when-let [[x & xs] (seq (next l))] (cons x (odds xs)))))
15:31	clojurebot	#'sandbox/odds
15:32	Anderkent	oh I'm so using multi word keywords
15:32	gfredericks	,(odds [:a :b :c :d :e :f :g :h])
15:32	clojurebot	(:b :d :f :h)
15:33	nz	Hi, what is the correct way to call a method inside an inner java class? In java it is like this: ModelControllerClient client = ModelControllerClient.Factory.create(123)
15:34	Anderkent	nz: ModelControllerClient$Factory/create, I'd expect
15:34	Anderkent	,Thread$UncaughtExceptionHandler
15:34	clojurebot	java.lang.Thread$UncaughtExceptionHandler
15:38	jared314	is there a good lib for creating test fakes for an entire namespace? fake functions etc.
15:40	nz	Anderkent: thanks, it works, but you need to import inner class: (import 'org.jboss.as.controller.client.ModelControllerClient$Factory), seems that importing the main class is not enough
15:41	Anderkent	jared314: kinda sounds like midjes provided?
15:41	gfredericks	nz: yeah afaik inner classes aren't even a concept on the jvm; just classes with dollar signs in the name
15:42	jared314	Anderkent: google-ing…
15:42	gfredericks	,(defrecord Some$Class [])
15:42	clojurebot	sandbox.Some$Class
15:43	gfredericks	,(fn % [])
15:43	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval62$_PERCENT___63 sandbox$eval62$_PERCENT___63@1a87c8>
15:43	justin_smith	gfredericks: https://www.refheap.com/66757 yeah that's a little faster
15:44	Anderkent	,sandbox.Some$Class
15:44	clojurebot	sandbox.Some$Class
15:44	Anderkent	hm. I guess inner classes are just syntax sugar in java
15:45	jared314	Anderkent: they are a compiler trick, like generics
15:50	seangrove	$seen petehunt
15:50	lazybot	petehunt was last seen quitting 30 minutes and 32 seconds ago.
15:51	jared314	$seen jared314
15:51	lazybot	jared314 was last seen talking on #clojure 29 milliseconds ago.
15:58	Anderkent	ooooh wait 1.6 fixes the hashing issue for collections of numbers?
15:58	turbofail	yarp
16:00	Anderkent	,clojure-version
16:00	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
16:00	Anderkent	&clojure-version
16:00	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
16:02	Anderkent	&(= (hash #{[:N [2 0]] [:R [4 2]] [:K [0 0]] [:Q [1 3]] [:B [3 0]]}) (hash #{[:N [3 0]] [:K [0 0]] [:R [1 2]] [:Q [4 3]] [:B [2 0]]}))
16:02	lazybot	⇒ true
16:02	Anderkent	,(= (hash #{[:N [2 0]] [:R [4 2]] [:K [0 0]] [:Q [1 3]] [:B [3 0]]}) (hash #{[:N [3 0]] [:K [0 0]] [:R [1 2]] [:Q [4 3]] [:B [2 0]]}))
16:02	clojurebot	true
16:03	Anderkent	huh
16:03	Anderkent	comes up false in a 1.6 repl for me
16:03	hiredman	clojurebot was on an old snapshot of 1.6
16:03	hiredman	that is what the :interim true means
16:03	Anderkent	ah.
16:04	hiredman	,clojure-version
16:04	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
16:04	hiredman	on the release now
16:04	Anderkent	,(= (hash #{[:N [2 0]] [:R [4 2]] [:K [0 0]] [:Q [1 3]] [:B [3 0]]}) (hash #{[:N [3 0]] [:K [0 0]] [:R [1 2]] [:Q [4 3]] [:B [2 0]]}))
16:04	clojurebot	false
16:04	Anderkent	good!
16:17	s0x	hey guys, i've got a function in a map like {:fn #(42)} is there a way to call that function in a chained way without additional brackets? e.g. something like (-> themap :fn callit println)
16:17	s0x	obviously the real method will do more than just returning a simple number :p
16:18	s0x	um sry ... function ^^
16:18	gfredericks	there's one or two terrible ways to do it
16:18	amalloy	(inc gfredericks)
16:18	lazybot	⇒ 46
16:18	gfredericks	I bet amalloy knows all of them
16:18	amalloy	s0x: avoidnig parens is not really a very important goal
16:19	gfredericks	,(let [the-map {:fn #(+)}] (-> the-map :fn deliver))
16:19	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/deliver>
16:19	amalloy	the language is chock full of em
16:19	gfredericks	,(let [the-map {:fn #(inc %)}] (-> the-map :fn (deliver 5)))
16:19	clojurebot	6
16:19	llasram	I've found it useful on some occasions to have `funcall` available
16:19	asthasr	Let's say I have a massive, sorted file I'm reading in via line-seq. I want to take-while on this line-seq, based on the first 'chunk' (key) of each line, producing a vector of lines to be passed into the function... and I want to iterate over this, so that I basically end up with [[["abc" 1 2] ["abc" 3 4]] [["def" 5 6] ["def" 7 8]]]... lazily
16:20	asthasr	what's the best way to do it?
16:20	rasmusto	asthasr: partition-by
16:20	asthasr	is partition-by going to be lazy, though?
16:20	rasmusto	yeah
16:20	llasram	It will fully realize each partition, but not the entire result
16:20	rasmusto	er, that
16:21	asthasr	ahh, so if there is a little chunk of unsorted lines later in the file, it'll be a separate partition
16:21	hiredman	,(-> {:fn #(identity 42)} :fn (reduce nil))
16:21	llasram	Yes
16:21	clojurebot	42
16:21	s0x	llasram: indeed ... we just wrote some method like that by ourself ... just wanna check if there is a nativ way of doing that
16:22	s0x	,(-> {:fn #(identitiy 42)} :fn (apply nil)
16:22	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:22	s0x	,(-> {:fn #(identitiy 42)} :fn (apply nil))
16:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: identitiy in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:22	s0x	,(-> {:fn #(identity 42)} :fn (apply nil))
16:22	clojurebot	42
16:22	rasmusto	~thrush
16:22	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:23	s0x	here we go ... that works either .. like gfredericks said ... terrible ways :D
16:23	hiredman	,(-> {:fn #(identity 42)} :fn (.invoke))
16:23	clojurebot	42
16:24	s0x	hiredman: well i guess the nicest way so far
16:24	gfredericks	also terrible
16:24	s0x	sure :p
16:25	amalloy	s0x: just don't put everything in a giant -> form. the nonsense with calling a function is hurting readability more than threading is helping
16:26	bars0	Hi all. How to upgrade clojure used by leiningen. I am on Windows 7 32 bits?
16:26	asthasr	Thanks rasmusto, llasram :)
16:26	gfredericks	hey that'd be a fun refactoring tool; somehow convert everything to threading macros
16:27	amalloy	bars0: just change the clojure dependency in your project.clj. you don't need lein itself to change its clojure version
16:27	hiredman	gfredericks: there was an emacs clojure thing that would do the transform both ways
16:27	amalloy	gfredericks: i believe that was like the main thing that clj-refactor did
16:27	bars0	amalloy: ok, thanks
16:27	amalloy	or whatever it was called. the emacs clojure thing
16:28	gfredericks	the lib that says "send help" in the readme
16:28	gfredericks	but I mean doing it to an extreme
16:29	gfredericks	much like that time I did a point-free factorial
16:29	s0x	amalloy: actually in our case it would have increased the readability, belief it or not.
16:29	s0x	thanks to everyone by providing suggestions
16:30	s0x	our own method "call" is still the best way to go :)
16:30	s0x	or at least the most readable
16:31	gfredericks	call it $
16:33	gfredericks	,(defn $ [f & args] (apply f args))
16:33	clojurebot	#'sandbox/$
16:33	rasmusto	,($ + 1 2 3)
16:33	clojurebot	6
16:37	gfredericks	so if test.check wanted to be parameterizable during calls to `lein test`
16:37	gfredericks	e.g., for setting seeds or scaling the number of test runs
16:37	gfredericks	what would be the least terrible mechanism for that?
16:37	gfredericks	+5 points if it works with lein profiles
16:38	s0x	why calling it $ ?
16:38	s0x	is there a reason for that?
16:38	amalloy	s0x: that's what it's called in haskell, is the joke
16:39	amalloy	f $ x = (f x)
16:44	aaelony	13:41 *** ustunozg_ QUIT Remote host closed the connection
16:44	Pupnik	i found myself wishing they left the parens in when learning haskell
16:45	s0x	gfredericks, amalloy: fair enough ... i've mentioned that and we will use that one ... thanks alot
16:45	tuft	heh, let's make prefix haskell =)
16:47	amalloy	gfredericks: a new task lein quickcheck, which takes args and binds some dynamic variables that you look up during your tests?
16:48	amalloy	seems kinda dumb but viable
16:48	Pupnik	easier enough, as I recall only the special character functions are infix tuft, just need to give them all normal names
16:48	amalloy	Pupnik: you don't even have to do that, just wrap em in parens
16:48	amalloy	($) f x = f $ x = f x
16:49	amalloy	aw. i'm sad that `($)` doesn't put it back to being infix
16:49	technomancy	gfredericks: does test.check have a -main entry point, or do you have to use clojure.test/run-tests?
16:51	Pupnik	amalloy, you get an unfortunate paren explosion if you try nesting expressions like that though
16:51	amalloy	Pupnik: well sure, the operators are infix for a reason. but you did just say you wished there were more parens: now you get lots!
16:52	amalloy	technomancy: there's no -main
16:52	bob2	gfredericks, environ?
16:57	mr-foobar	what's the advantage of tag literals in edn over plain symbols ?
16:58	gfredericks	technomancy: it doesn't have a main; you can call tests from the repl, or use defspec which makes something like deftest
16:58	gfredericks	bob2: also it's a contrib library so we can't bring in random stuff
16:59	gfredericks	amalloy: ideally it should be compatible with running _all_ the clojure.test tests
17:04	gvickers	Anyone using the Om library? Where should I use om/transact!? Is it ok to use it in a callback on a button?
17:09	justin_smith	gvickers: I think that's appropriate, if you want to immediately render the change in question and don't need to consolidate it with other simultaneous changes
17:24	sdegutis	clojure.lang.LineNumberingPushbackReader (stdin) cannot be cast to java.io.InputStream
17:24	sdegutis	haaalp
17:26	amalloy	readers read characters; input streams are for bytes
17:27	sdegutis	aw
17:27	whodidthis	fnhouse seems pretty cool, hopefully its released on clojars soon
17:28	sdegutis	I'm trying to get clj-ssh to load me right into a live ssh session of the server of my choice.
17:28	sdegutis	I'm trying to use (ssh-shell) to do it.
17:29	justin_smith	sdegutis: maybe this could be implemented more concisely? http://www.java2s.com/Code/Java/File-Input-Output/ConvertReadertoInputStream.htm
17:30	sdegutis	I'm hesitant to do stuff I don't understand when it comes to networks.
17:30	Anderkent	sdegutis: ReaderInputSTream ?
17:31	Anderkent	oh my bad
17:31	amalloy	i don't think that exists, sdegutis
17:31	Anderkent	i thought it's actually a thing in java
17:31	amalloy	er, Anderkent
17:31	amalloy	i wrote it once, many years ago, but it's a bad idea
17:31	Anderkent	it's in apache commons!
17:31	Anderkent	can't be a bad idea.
17:32	Anderkent	though browsing through the source, it doesnt handle stream preambles which sucks
17:32	amalloy	sdegutis: maybe https://github.com/ztellman/byte-streams ?
17:32	sdegutis	If Apache is known for writing a famous web server in C, why do they have so much Java stuff?
17:33	Anderkent	it's a software foundation
17:33	tuft	sdegutis: most of the stuff under their umbrella these days is java
17:34	sdegutis	amalloy: thanks looks great
17:35	sdegutis	ztellman strikes again, with a silent yet graceful "boom got em"
17:37	amalloy	clojurebot: ztellman is, inexplicably, silent yet graceful
17:37	clojurebot	excusez-moi
17:37	amalloy	clojurebot: ztellman \|is\|, inexplicably, silent yet graceful
17:37	clojurebot	c'est bon!
17:39	hiredman	~ztellman
17:39	clojurebot	ztellman is , inexplicably, silent yet graceful
17:40	sdegutis	I guess I just don't understand what inexplicable means then
17:40	sdegutis	oh. ok yeah.
17:43	hiredman	clojurebot's factoid stuff conflates data and presentation, ideally it would go in through something that extracted raw sort of relationship data, stuck that in a store, then queryied that story to find data, and then used some set of rules to generate an english sentence conveying that data
17:44	sdegutis	hiredman: hey is clojurebot available to join, say, #clojure-social ?
17:46	maxalwings	/msg NickServ identify gakwaya
17:46	amalloy	sdegutis: you can have lazybot if you want him?
17:46	sdegutis	i saw nothing
17:46	sdegutis	amalloy: he's there
17:46	sdegutis	thanks
17:47	sdegutis	~guards
17:47	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
17:47	maxalwings	Hellow!
17:48	maxalwings	I am new to clojure I want to use range to generate numbers like 4 8 16 32 64
17:48	maxalwings	Need ur help
17:48	joegallo	why range?
17:48	brehaut	sounds like a job for iterate
17:49	joegallo	inc brehaut
17:49	maxalwings	Oh! inc would work. Thanks
17:50	amalloy	&(take 10 (iterate #(* 2 %) 4))
17:50	lazybot	⇒ (4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048)
17:50	TimMc	...
17:50	maxalwings	Thank you guyz
17:50	TimMc	maxalwings: "inc brehaut" meant +1 to brehaut, not that brehaut should have said "inc" :-)
17:51	amalloy	&(for [power (range 10)] (Integer/parseInt (apply str "1" (repeat power "0")) 2))
17:51	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512)
17:51	joegallo	:)
17:51	amalloy	in case you're looking for a bad solution as well as a good one
17:51	joegallo	nice
17:51	TimMc	ha!
17:51	maxalwings	Ha!
17:52	maxalwings	Nice
17:54	maxalwings	For those of you who uses garden to do css I have rewritten and published normalize.css
17:54	maxalwings	check it out on clojars.org
18:03	sdegutis	max[tab]: looks handy th--
18:14	gozala	anyone can help me with clojurescript.test on node ?
18:15	sdegutis	maxalwings: looks handy thanks
18:19	Frozenlock	I would like to learn Component and try a little of Datomic. Is there, by any change, a tutorial using both? :-p
18:20	maxalwings	sdegutis glad you like it
18:25	amalloy	~anyone
18:25	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
18:39	tmciver	I want to ensure that a value is a seq even if I'm given a scaler. Is there a better way to do (if (seq? x) x (vec x))?
18:40	Bronsa	,(vec 1)
18:40	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.lang.Long to Object[]>
18:41	noprompt	$seen guns
18:41	lazybot	guns was last seen joining on leiningen 1 hour and 35 minutes ago.
18:41	noprompt	guns: you around?
18:41	Frozenlock	tmciver: I'm not sure I understand... but (or (seq x) (vec x)) is a tiny bit shorter :p
18:41	guns	noprompt: lo
18:42	guns	watching clojure/west videos with some dinner
18:42	cbp	tmciver: seq? will return false for vectors, also vec turns one seq into a vector, it doesn't turn a scalar into a vector
18:42	Bronsa	tmciver: you want vector there, not vec
18:42	michaniskin1	noprompt: hey dude
18:42	noprompt	guns: i'm not sure if you've run in to this but sometimes i run in to an issue with using tools.cli
18:42	tmciver	Frozenlock: (seq x) throws if x is a scalar.
18:42	noprompt	michaniskin1: yo, trying out boot right now :)
18:42	guns	noprompt: Great, I'd love to fix it for you
18:43	cbp	tmciver: I believe you want `sequential?`
18:43	tmciver	Bronsa: you're right.
18:43	noprompt	guns: i don't think it's an issue w/ tools.cli directly but oddly when i require the latest version in my project and attempt to use it i'll get the error "parse-opts does not exist"
18:43	noprompt	guns: i've tried lein deps :tree to no avail
18:44	guns	noprompt: that's strange; is this CLJS?
18:44	guns	noprompt: And would you mind sharing a paste/gist so I can check it out?
18:45	noprompt	guns: no. and i've tried nuking all tools.cli from ~/.m2, etc. it works for some projects but not for others.
18:45	noprompt	guns, michaniskin1: i'm trying this w/ boot fwiw
18:46	michaniskin1	noprompt: what does your build.boot look like?
18:47	noprompt	https://gist.github.com/noprompt/9820733
18:47	guns	Oh, boot creates Clojure scripts? Nice
18:48	noprompt	guns: yeah, it's exactly what we want right now too. we have a build task that doesn't make sense as a lein-plugin.
18:48	guns	I'm going to install boot now and give it a go
18:49	noprompt	guns: but this problem has happened before with regular lein projects. :-/
18:49	guns	That's very strange; the tools.cli artifact is very simple
18:49	noprompt	guns: the annoying part is lein deps :tree doesn't report that it's a dependency but when running lein XXX it get's picked up.
18:50	noprompt	guns: i even completely emptied my profiles too.
18:50	guns	noprompt: Maybe leiningen has a hidden dep on an old tools.cli?
18:50	michaniskin1	noprompt: i'm investigating too
18:50	guns	that doesn't show up in :deps that is
18:51	technomancy	lein pulls in tools.cli 0.2.1 via reply
18:52	_2_yara17	hola
18:52	cbp	bonjour
18:52	guns	So maybe I should send a patch to reply? the new tools.cli is backwards compatible
18:53	technomancy	sure
18:53	noprompt	technomancy: ah, then that's probably the problem.
18:53	guns	https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/blob/master/project.clj
18:53	guns	[org.clojure/tools.cli "0.3.1"]
18:53	technomancy	guns: actually ideally we could just exclude it entirely
18:54	technomancy	lein does its own option parsing
18:55	technomancy	but that might require rearranging things in a backwards-incompatible way
18:55	technomancy	yeah, the ns that requires tools.cli is the same ns lein needs
18:55	technomancy	even though the defns inside it are completely unrelated =(
18:55	technomancy	huge namespaces: not always very cool
18:55	guns	lol
18:55	michaniskin1	noprompt: i'm getting ready to release an update to boot (it's in the "dev" branch currently) that separates the whole pomegranate dependency into another classloader
18:56	technomancy	hm; it's not even actually big at all, only 100 loc
18:56	sdegutis	Some interesting conversations about vars: http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/%23clojure/2010-10-18.txt
18:57	michaniskin1	noprompt: actually i was mistaken, pomegranate doesn't pull in tools.cli, as far as i can see
18:57	guns	noprompt: Still, it's strange I've never seen this problem
18:58	noprompt	were either of you able to replicate it?
18:58	sdegutis	Also, very interesting discussion about how to compile Clojure files: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-02-01.html
18:59	michaniskin1	noprompt: yes i can make it happen here too
19:01	noprompt	michaniskin1: cool. i was hoping that i wasn't going to end up on my own personal island of despair over here. :-)
19:01	noprompt	michaniskin1: we're still super stoked to bring this into our workflow.
19:02	michaniskin1	something is bringing in tools.cli 0.2.1
19:03	michaniskin1	noprompt: i'm tracking down what that could be, exactly
19:03	noprompt	right, i clone everything down to my machine and ran lein deps :tree everywhere to see if i could spot it. :-/
19:03	michaniskin1	noprompt: i just did this: https://gist.github.com/9821023
19:04	michaniskin1	noprompt: then did `boot doit`
19:04	guns	gah finally figured out how to use boot
19:05	michaniskin1	noprompt: i'm going to test with the dev version of boot (the one with the segregated pomegranate), just to make sure
19:10	michaniskin1	noprompt: if you do git pull from dev branch of boot you can use this: https://gist.github.com/9821131
19:11	michaniskin1	noprompt: the problem was that tools.cli was somehow being pulled in via pomegranate, after all
19:11	noprompt	orly?
19:11	michaniskin1	noprompt: i'll be pushing a release of boot in the next day or two, but it's not quite ready yet
19:12	noprompt	michaniskin1: that's fine. we're just spiking on this atm. personally, i'm sold.
19:12	guns	noprompt: regarding leiningen projects: I notice that a simple project repl without an explicit tools.cli dep will actually have tools.cli 0.2.1 on the classpath
19:13	guns	So maybe that's why you have seen this in the past?
19:13	noprompt	guns: so is the culprit pomegranate?
19:13	michaniskin1	noprompt: awesome!
19:14	technomancy	guns: I can't reproduce that
19:14	technomancy	guns: is it possible that's coming from your user profile
19:15	noprompt	technomancy: i can attempt to verify that.
19:15	guns	technomancy: I removed all the deps from that to see; but I will try again
19:15	noprompt	technomancy: we have a project where this was an issue, at the time i didn't think to check there.
19:15	guns	I suspected it was reply 0.3.0; the upcoming 0.3.1 will include tools.cli 0.3.1
19:16	guns	The current reply has tools.cli 0.2.1
19:17	noprompt	https://gist.github.com/noprompt/9821268
19:19	guns	technomancy: yes you are correct
19:20	gozala	dnolen_: is there way to preserve (def env js/process.env) when using advanced compilation ?
19:21	guns	noprompt: then perhaps you have something in your user profile that brings in the old tools.cli (many lein plugins have it), and didn't notice that you did not have an explicit tools.cli dep?
19:21	gozala	dnolen_: it seems to translate to rc=process.rc
19:22	guns	noprompt: and if this happens with an explicit dep then :exclusions must be used?
19:24	noprompt	guns: i mved my profiles.clj file out of ~/.lein and still get the problem
19:24	cbp	gozala: have you tried ^:export ?
19:24	guns	noprompt: in a straight leiningen project with an explicit tools.cli dep?
19:25	noprompt	guns: yeah, but let me try making a brand new project too and see if it's an issue.
19:26	noprompt	gozala: i think you need to use externs.
19:26	gozala	cbp: yeah but I don’t think it helps with props
19:26	gozala	noprompt: any reference about externs ?
19:27	cbp	gozala: I think you need to do (def ^:export env (.-env js/process))
19:27	noprompt	gozala: there's this article http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
19:27	amalloy	probably (aget js/process "env")
19:27	cbp	If I understand it process is an object and you're trying to get the env key?
19:27	noprompt	amalloy: yeah that works too
19:28	noprompt	amalloy: but it's a bit annoying.
19:28	amalloy	i mean, he can decorate his own def with ^:export, but that won't impact how js/process get munged
19:28	amalloy	and he probably doesn't even need his own exported
19:28	noprompt	amalloy: right..
19:29	noprompt	s/\.$//
19:29	gozala	cbp: amalloy no prompt thanks for suggestions
19:29	gozala	I think aget is probably best way to go about it for my use case
19:30	amalloy	noprompt: you know there used to be a lazybot plugin that would pounce on those s/this/that/ annotations and tell everyone what it substitutes to. people don't seem to like it
19:30	noprompt	gozala: externs are fairly easy. you just need to create a process_externs.js file and put something like "process.env = {}" and have an entry :externs ["process_externs.js"]
19:30	noprompt	amalloy: that's bummer. ;_;
19:32	gozala	noprompt: won’t that override process.env though ?
19:32	noprompt	guns: it works fine with a brand new project.
19:32	gozala	noprompt: I’ll take a look at the post
19:32	gozala	noprompt: because amalloy your suggestion surprisingly did not work
19:33	noprompt	gozala: no. that's just for google closure. basically it's so that the identifiers will not get munged during advanced compilation and also to inform the compiler about what things are so it can make decisions when compiling.
19:33	gozala	noprompt: amalloy actually never mind it did work I just had a separate usage somewhere
19:34	gozala	noprompt: how is it better that aget though ?
19:35	noprompt	gozala: the reason that works is because you're effectively saying env = process["env"]. process also does not get munged because https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/nodejs_externs.js
19:35	guns	noprompt: now you've got yourself a bug :) If this pops up again, and you have an explicit dep, please open an issue on github while it's fresh on your mind
19:36	noprompt	guns: yeah, and i already spent an hour trying to figure it out for that project and simply don't feel like wasting more time on it. :-(
19:36	noprompt	guns: heh, but hey the boot problem looks like it's pretty much solved! ;-)
19:37	noprompt	gozala: personally i prefer (.-env js/process) and using externs to (aget js/process "env"). it's totally your call though.
19:38	noprompt	gozala: fwiw
19:38	noprompt	gozala: there's also https://github.com/dcodeIO/node.js-closure-compiler-externs
19:39	noprompt	michaniskin1: i'll keep an eye on boot for the next release.
19:39	gozala	noprompt: I did not realised every import will be mingled as well :(
19:41	noprompt	gozala: yeah, but it's really not that bad unless you're using every last inch of an API. even then it's really just a simple matter of adding a new entry to an externs file. takes like a second.
19:42	noprompt	gozala: for the nodejs builtins i'd probably look at using those externs i mentioned above since they cover 99% of what you need in pure node.
19:42	gozala	noprompt: well I’m hooking into libuv bindings directly
19:42	gozala	:(
19:42	gozala	which is process.binding(“os”) for example
19:43	noprompt	gozala: but the motivation for using advanced compilation is also not as compelling as it is on the client.
19:44	gozala	noprompt: is this how you specify what’s the result of function ?
19:44	noprompt	gozala: well unless you're planning to package it up and put it on npm or something. then you've got some work todo. ;-)
19:44	gozala	https://github.com/dcodeIO/node.js-closure-compiler-externs/blob/master/events.js#L25-L29
19:46	guns	technomancy: I love your idea about clicky switches for keys and linear ones for modifiers. So obvious once you hear it!
19:46	technomancy	guns: oh yeah, are you going to try it?
19:46	arnaudsj	HI, is there a good reference guide/page on the best way to create a clojure lib based on a java lib (basically a clojure wrapper)
19:47	noprompt	gozala: i'm not completely sure. try it out maybe? i haven't done much cljs targeting node.
19:47	amalloy	arnaudsj: i think for libraries where there's an obvious way to create a clojure wrapper, the java version is already usable enough that there's no need to wrap it
19:47	guns	technomancy: it's on the shopping list; I suppose no one sells them that way?
19:48	gozala	noprompt: thanks
19:48	technomancy	guns: I don't think so, heh
19:49	arnaudsj	amalloy: ok, so how do you deal with automatically installing the jar file into your leinengen project?
19:49	technomancy	closest I've heard of is the realforce boards that use different springs for the weaker fingers
19:49	technomancy	guns: going for an ergodox, or something else?
19:49	amalloy	you refer to it via maven
19:49	arnaudsj	I mean as a dependency so that it is automatically installed in your local .m2?
19:49	guns	technomancy: you know, my gf was just pitching that we start a hardware company; it looks to me you're halfway thre
19:49	arnaudsj	amalloy: can you point me to an example?
19:49	technomancy	guns: it is tempting =)
19:49	guns	technomancy: I was just going to buy a WASD and swap out the parts
19:50	technomancy	cool
19:50	Averell	why is that supposed to be good, having a mix of switches?
19:50	noprompt	arnaudsj: just add it as a dependency to you project.clj [the/dep "X.X.X
19:51	technomancy	Averell: for non-modifiers, you want tactile feedback for when they activate because you typically just tap them. but modifiers are different since you hold them down
19:51	technomancy	so you always bottom out anyway.
19:51	noprompt	arnaudsj: then (:import the.dep.TheClass)
19:51	technomancy	Averell: it helps you instantly notice if you've hit the wrong key
19:51	technomancy	well, the wrong type of key anyway
19:52	arnaudsj	noprompt: where do I place the jar for that dependency though? (it wont' be able to find it in the maven public repos)
19:53	amalloy	arnaudsj: write a letter to your congressman. jars which aren't in maven should be illegal
19:53	noprompt	lol
19:53	arnaudsj	amalloy, noprompt: yes that's why I wanted to wrap it up into a nice clojure lib to deploy on Clojars.org :)
19:54	amalloy	that doesn't solve the problem
19:54	hiredman	clojars is a maven repo
19:54	technomancy	guns: one of the guys at cloudant where they host seajure has a filco that's pretty great too http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-2-Tenkeyless-FKBN87MC-EB2/dp/B004WOF7S0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1395964285
19:54	amalloy	you'd be creating a clojure lib that depends on a java lib that nobody else can find. instead, publish the java lib to clojars yourself
19:54	technomancy	oh, he left
19:54	hiredman	it is, in fact, language agnostic as are maven repos
19:55	Averell	i have that filco with wasd keycaps. i'll probably try this mixing.
19:55	technomancy	Averell: my boards have the modifiers on the thumbs, which is a bit different
19:56	arnaudsj	ok, I see. So get that java lib to use maven instead to compile and publish it to clojars. I get it now. Sorry for the newbye question. Just getting starting on Clojure in the past month, and I can't get enough of it, but I don't know well yet the ecosystem.
19:56	technomancy	Averell: I was hitting the wrong keys more when I was getting used to them, and I feel like the different switches helped
19:56	Averell	is that custom built?
19:56	technomancy	Averell: yeah, http://technomancy.us/173 and http://technomancy.us/172
19:57	amalloy	arnaudsj: you can publish it to clojars without having to change how it builds. build the jar however it wants, then publish it. i don't recall the details for manually publishing, but you should be able to find it on google somewhere
19:58	technomancy	amalloy: scp pom.xml myjar.jar clojars@clojars.org:
19:59	technomancy	oh, you can use lein deploy too I guess
20:02	rasmusto	technomancy: oo, mx blacks for ctrl/shift/alt/alt-gr etc?
20:02	rasmusto	(just glanced at the logs)
20:03	technomancy	rasmusto: yeah, for the mods that are under the thumbs. one of my boards has shift under the pinkies, so I used reds for that since they take less force
20:04	rasmusto	that's great, what about spacebar?
20:04	technomancy	rasmusto: on my new board I have greens for space and backspace
20:04	technomancy	both under the thumbs
20:05	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/atreus#switches tl;dr
20:05	rasmusto	technomancy: ah, I think I've seen your keyboard posted at one point, is it the split grid type thing?
20:06	rasmusto	ah, thanks.
20:06	Foxboron	when i joined this chan one and a half year ago, there where 435 people. Now its 710. Thats awesome.
20:06	Foxboron	just realized it.
20:07	technomancy	the mailing list growth seems to be easing off though
20:08	technomancy	took over 5 years to get from 900 to 9000
20:09	arrdem	which list?
20:09	technomancy	arrdem: just the main clojure one
20:11	gfredericks	time to IPO before it's to late
20:11	gfredericks	too*
20:13	rasmusto	avrdude is such a weird acronym, great tool though
20:15	guns	technomancy: I've heard great things about the Filcos; what I am really interested in having is a Keyboard with a configurable CAPS->Control setting so I never have to loadkeys / keymap / udev-whatever again at a new installation
20:16	technomancy	guns: need an onboard microcontroller =D
20:16	guns	technomancy: and a Forth interpreter apparently!
20:16	technomancy	well eventually sure
20:36	TimMc	gfredericks: Except when you type "mwlpwqt /Mwlpwpt"
20:44	stcredzero	Would I be able to get away with signalling a semaphore in a function sent to an Agent?
20:46	amalloy	stcredzero: not enough context for a correct answer
20:46	amalloy	you can definitely interact with semaphores in an agent action, but whether this leads to a correct program depends on the problem
20:47	guns	Isn't the implicit question whether or not agent fns are retried?
20:47	stcredzero	amalloy: granted, I could freeze everything up waiting on the thing afterwards, but as far as I can tell there is nothing in the whole agent thing that forbids it.
20:48	amalloy	guns: no? that's one thing that could go wrong, but hardly the only one
20:48	stcredzero	amalloy: yes, but there's a way to get notification from the system once an agent action succeeds, yes?
20:48	amalloy	eg, perhaps the agent is blocking on some other lock, so that you build a deadlock while it waits for itself
20:49	stcredzero	amalloy: I want to know when a specific set of agent actions has finished
20:49	amalloy	stcredzero: i mean, there's ##(doc await)
20:49	lazybot	⇒ "([& agents]); Blocks the current thread (indefinitely!) until all actions dispatched thus far, from this thread or agent, to the agent(s) have occurred. Will block on failed agents. Will never return if a failed agent is restarted with :clear-actions true."
20:50	amalloy	but generally if you care when an agent action is done, you don't want to be using an agent - their asynchrony is supposed to be a feature, not a hurdle
20:50	stcredzero	amalloy: ah ha! Good news. I don't have to build it.
20:50	stcredzero	amalloy: well, what I want isn't quite like an Agent.
20:50	hyPiRion	Generally you'd use await-for, because await is dangerous wrt. blocking
20:51	amalloy	hyPiRion: he strikes me as someone who lives dangerously
20:52	stcredzero	amalloy: you have no evidence of this, I think. Rather, you are interpreting my willingness to use tools in unusual ways in experiments this way. (Probably a little condescenscion there.)
20:52	amalloy	that's a fair characterization
20:53	stcredzero	amalloy: typical pattern. I ask about a small detail. A system that uses this mechanism is imagined by others, but has some tremendous flaw, but it's assumed that my system has that flaw. This is wrong over 50% of the time.
20:54	michaniskin	AeroNotix: ping
20:54	AeroNotix	michaniskin: pizzong
20:55	AeroNotix	sup
20:55	michaniskin	AeroNotix: i added you with admin access to the tailrecursion/ring-proxy repo
20:55	michaniskin	you should be able to add collaborators if you wish, or whatever you like
20:55	AeroNotix	michaniskin: oh ok, thanks a lot! We're using it on something at work
20:55	AeroNotix	:)
20:56	AeroNotix	I hope you didn't take offense to my robocop thing
20:56	hyPiRion	stcredzero: that's a very common thing over here in general. Many people ask for advice on how to do X, but actually wants to do Y, in which Z is a better choice.
20:56	guns	This is a common thing in every channel
20:57	AeroNotix	michaniskin: It's 2:00am here, though. So I must hit the hay
20:57	AeroNotix	will catch up with you another time
20:57	stcredzero	hyPiRion: Yes, I am aware of how that works. What disturbs me is when people start throwing counterfactuals about what I'm doing, then jump on that as evidence I don't understand something like threads.
20:58	guns	stcredzero: lots of people don't understand threads. no reason to be touchy
20:58	guns	I've been misunderstood on plenty of channels; not a big deal
20:59	michaniskin	AeroNotix: see ya
20:59	stcredzero	guns: I just don't like it when people tell me something is X when it's Y.
21:00	guns	stcredzero: meh; it's not a big deal
21:26	gfredericks	TimMc: the dvorak stuff seems to be setup at a lower level. xmodmap is just for caps->ctrl
21:30	TimMc	Ah, OK.
21:35	cneira	how do I use a custom datatype from a java library ?
21:36	brehaut	you import it, and the construct it
21:36	brehaut	,(import java.util.Date)
21:36	clojurebot	java.util.Date
21:36	brehaut	(Date. 2014 1 1)
21:36	brehaut	,(Date. 2014 1 1)
21:36	clojurebot	#inst "3914-02-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"
21:38	hyPiRion	it's from 1900
21:38	hyPiRion	,(Date. 114 27 03)
21:38	clojurebot	#inst "2016-04-03T00:00:00.000-00:00"
21:39	hyPiRion	,(Date. 114 3 27)
21:39	clojurebot	#inst "2014-04-27T00:00:00.000-00:00"
21:39	brehaut	oh. lol
21:40	tmciver	The year is from 1900, the month is from zero and the day is from 1. good grief.
21:40	brehaut	forgot about that. not that its really relevant
21:40	hyPiRion	and months are apparently zero-indexed
21:40	brehaut	i think someone was high when they wrote it
21:41	amalloy	well, that was in like the sixties, brehaut, so probably
21:41	amalloy	(ie, Date is derived from very old C functions)
21:42	brehaut	if thats the case, its surprising we can accurate determine when it was written at all
21:45	brehaut	in any case, its still quite insane to be writing a new, cross platform language/library and to just copy the madness from an earlier system that is clearly crazypants
21:50	amalloy	well, yes. i can only explain, not justify
21:53	shep-home	Is there a nice way to destructure from the end of seq?
21:53	amalloy	shep-home: not really
21:54	shep-home	I'm reversing it and taking the first few items for now
21:54	amalloy	and like, it can't be performant, so it's not unreasonable that the language discourages you from doing it. clojure often does that
21:55	shep-home	alright, it's not a big thing in this case
21:55	shep-home	thanks!
22:03	TimMc	Hmm, It could be nice to destructure from the end of a vector.
22:04	TimMc	I suppose that's what rseq is for.
22:04	brehaut	rseq!
22:04	TimMc	sniped!
22:04	brehaut	i blame international lag
22:05	amalloy	haha quick, someone tell rich we've found out that rseq is only for destructuring
22:08	TimMc	Huh, I didn't get a ping response from brehaut's client. Maybe I screwed up the command.
22:09	brehaut	or my crappy client doesnt work properly?
22:09	brehaut	TimMc: im getting ~1.0±0.1 to you
22:09	brehaut	also nan
22:10	TimMc	!
22:10	brehaut	2.0
22:12	brehaut	i guess those are seconds
22:27	TimMc	That's plenty of time for sniping.
22:40	chare	who here is addicted to diablo 3 reaper of souls
22:44	arrdem	(inc amalloy) ;; ring buffer is osum
22:44	lazybot	⇒ 92
23:20	amalloy	arrdem: glad you enjoy
23:20	arrdem	amalloy: you should totally patch it to use 1.6 now :P
23:20	amalloy	hey, maybe i could get into quickcheck by writing some test.check properties for ring-buffer
23:21	amalloy	arrdem: does it need to change in some way for 1.6? surely you can just use 1.6 and ring-buffer together
23:21	arrdem	amalloy: I don't think so, I'm just poking you
23:21	arrdem	amalloy: seriously tho, thanks. ring-buffer made logging bounded histories a breze.
23:22	amalloy	cool. i don't think i ever actually used ring-buffer, i just made it for fun
23:22	arrdem	I just used it in a branch predictor implementation...
23:22	arrdem	blag post incomming
23:25	MadFunk	chare: is it that good?
23:25	chare	MadFunk you have never played diablo 3?
23:25	MadFunk	I have, that's why I'm asking=p
23:27	arrdem	MadFunk: FYI chare is the routinely visiting troll we still haven't banned for some reason
23:27	arrdem	MadFunk: chatting with him is... frowned on.
23:27	chare	i'm not a troll
23:27	MadFunk	lol, arrdem, noted.
23:27	MadFunk	chare: I sorta peaced after the first couple weeks. Like SimCity, it wasn't the "always online" issue that bothered me-- just felt the game wasn't as "complete" as I'd hoped based on the series. But yeah, I hear better things about RoS.
23:28	MadFunk	totally on-channel-topic here, I know.
23:33	MadFunk	I do actually have clojure related inquiry for anyone who might have some ideas. I'm trying to tackle this problem http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/24891/solve-aristotles-number-problem in clojure and I'm not sure how. I've done my best to figure it out myself, but I do not have a good track record with math puzzles. I was wondering if anyone could help me identify an approach. I've given up on figuring it out on my own, now I
23:33	MadFunk	just want to know how it could be solved.
23:38	MadFunk	I suppose I could translate the logic from one of the other submissions, but I feel like there must be a more distinctly-clojure approach. I appreciate that could be just a misconception on my part. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
23:50	amalloy	MadFunk: i'd say converting one of the other solutions to an immutable approach will be both a good learning experience and also the easiest way to go. coming up with a novel algorithm for a solved problem is not easy