#clojure – 2014-01-20

2014-01-20

00:00	ryantm	egghead, okay, it seems like either you need to choose a different :root at runtime or package the jar with a different resources directory
00:01	ryantm	egghead, I'm not sure how to do the latter, but it seems like it would be preferable
00:02	egghead	hm could probably use lein profiles for that
00:02	ryantm	egghead, it looks like you can set :resource-path in :profiles
00:02	ryantm	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
00:03	egghead	ya, thats a good idea, thanks ryantm
00:03	ryantm	egghead, you're welcome
00:21	tpope	gtrak: haven't attempted that yet, no
00:31	eraserhd	Is it idiomatic to define a protocol for use internal to a package when using deftype? E.g. accessors for fields?
00:32	amalloy	no. just define a function; there's no need to physically attach it to the object as a method
00:32	eraserhd	amalloy: Then how do I access fields?
00:32	amalloy	(.foo obj)
00:33	eraserhd	amalloy: Oh. That's not in the deftype docs... (unless I missed it)
00:33	amalloy	it's just how you access a field of any object
00:34	amalloy	http://clojure.org/java_interop
00:35	dj_ryan	is there a way to do circularly dependent java/clojure code?
00:35	dj_ryan	or is it limited to one way only?
00:39	saj_	Hi, I have a question about 'require'
00:41	ryantm	saj_, ask it
00:42	saj_	regarding the :refer option, from reading the documentation something like (ns blah.core (:require [compojure.core :refer [defroutes])) should bring defroutes into the blah.core ns
00:42	saj_	but that's not what's happening for me when I try it out; it says it can't resolve defroutes
00:44	logic_prog	when should I use async/thread instead of using async/go ?
00:45	saj_	I've read about 'require' being able to replace 'use' using the :refer option, but the options seem to be ignored as far as I can tell
00:47	ryantm	saj_, what version of clojure are you using?
00:48	saj_	oh :/ 1.3.0
00:48	saj_	let me try updating that to the current version first...
00:50	ryantm	Your example works for me in Clojure 1.5.1
00:51	ddellacosta	what does :scope do in leiningen dependencies? For example, in Om: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/project.clj#L12-L13
00:56	saj_	ryantm: thanks, that was the problem
00:58	ryantm	ddellacosta, I think it's a dependency that is only necessary for the :provided profile
00:58	ryantm	saj_, you're welcome
00:59	ddellacosta	ryantm: is "provided" an implicit default then? I guess I was confused as I was looking for a "provided" profile per the leiningen sample project (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L46)
01:01	ddellacosta	ah, I see that it is... https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/PROFILES.md
01:01	ddellacosta	okay, my bad--thanks ryantm !
01:02	ryantm	docstring for default-profiles in project.clj "Profiles get merged into the project map. The :dev, :provided, and :user profiles are active by default."
01:05	ryantm	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/project.clj#L405
01:05	quizdr	from the standpoint of lazyness and resource use, are these two fibonacci definitions more or less the same: (def head-fibo (lazy-cat [0N 1N] (map + head-fibo (rest head-fibo)))) and (defn fibo [] (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0N 1N])))
01:09	quizdr	actually i guess the first one is head-retaining, the second one isn't since it's a function
02:07	danneu	What's the simplest way to 'schedule an event' in clojure, like cooking a cache every 30 seconds?
02:11	noidi	I don't know if Quartzite the simplest, but it isn't too hard to use http://clojurequartz.info/
02:12	ddellacosta	danneu: also take a look at the timeout function in core.async, could be a relatively lightweight way to do you want: http://hueypetersen.com/posts/2013/07/10/code-read-of-core-async-timeouts/
02:13	danneu	ddellacosta: that was actually the simplest idea i could think of. just spawn some go-loops with (<! (timeout x))
02:14	ddellacosta	danneu: yeah, I haven't done a lot of that sort of thing myself, but it strikes that it is probably the simplest and (recently) most idiomatic way to do it in Clojure.
02:14	ddellacosta	strikes *me
02:29	dsrx	is there a way to destructure properties on javascripts objects in cljs?
02:39	TheBusby	Will core.async let you do the following? (def out-chan (async/map identity [in-chan])) ?
02:39	TheBusby	I'm having issues where it only works sometimes, but other times if "out-chan" is defined without anything in "in-chan" then it doesn't wait for input
02:42	ddellacosta	dsrx: as far as I know you have to convert to a cljs data structure first, using js->clj
02:45	quizdr	would it be appropriate to say that def is like common lisp's defparameter while defonce is like defvar?
02:48	dsrx	ddellacosta: aight, thanks
02:49	ddellacosta	quizdr: my impression of defparameter is that it is more like an atom
02:49	ddellacosta	quizdr: or perhaps like def w/dynamic set
02:50	quizdr	ok, you are right about the dynamic part, i was thinking more in terms of what happens when you def a var that already exists. scoping would be another matter, you are right.
02:50	ddellacosta	quizdr: defvar seems more like a direct analog to def. As far as defonce, I don't know enough about common lisp to know if there is an appropriate analog. defonce seems to exist in order to handle idiosyncrasies with out namespaces get loaded in clojure.
02:52	ddellacosta	quizdr: yeah, sorry I don't know enough common lisp to say much more--that was just based on my quick lookup of how those two work in CL.
02:52	quizdr	no problem. in CL both defvar and defparameter are dynamic
02:55	quizdr	anyone in here use a stand-up desk, so you aren't always sitting down?
02:58	ucb	quizdr: I do
02:58	TEttinger	I'm sitting on my right foot now.
02:59	quizdr	i fashioned something together with a chare and a small ikea table
02:59	quizdr	works but not so stable
03:23	logic_prog	dnolen: ping
03:23	logic_prog	dnolen: for your next blog post, can you consider writing it about erorr ahndling in clojure?
03:24	logic_prog	dnolen: i find that as I write larger and more complicated distributed systems, > 50% of my code is daeling with error handling / exceptions
03:24	logic_prog	dnolen: I'd love to read a well thought piece on error handling in clojure, i.e. patterns built on top of slingshot try+/throw+
03:34	fredyr	logic_prog: would you mind expand a bit on what you run into?
03:36	bitemyapp	logic_prog: not sure why you'd ask somebody that does mostly front-end and CLJS about error handing and distributed systems.
03:36	logic_prog	bitemyapp: do you blog?
03:36	logic_prog	bitemyapp: point at who I should bother instead
03:36	bitemyapp	logic_prog: It's not the end-all be-all, but I rather like this for making logic and error-handling independent: https://github.com/michaeldrogalis/dire/
03:36	logic_prog	where is Rich
03:37	marcopolo`	lol
03:37	logic_prog	damn, it's erlang inspired
03:37	logic_prog	I'm interested
03:37	bitemyapp	there's some material to be stolen from Erlang on this subject.
03:37	logic_prog	fredyr: basically, I'm reading Joe Armstrong's programming erlang
03:37	bitemyapp	logic_prog: there are some monadic error handling approaches you could learn about from Haskell too.
03:37	logic_prog	fredyr: and writing a distributed web app in clojure/cljs
03:37	bitemyapp	logic_prog: "distributed"?
03:37	fredyr	logic_prog: right, i was actually going to recommend armstrongs thesis
03:37	bitemyapp	logic_prog: distributed how? Generally you're talking stateless clients and a database.
03:38	logic_prog	fredyr: and I'm thinking ot myself, damn, I have async/go for processes, now I wish I have erlang-like error handling
03:38	logic_prog	bitemyapp: i'm basically rolling my own meteor/firebase in clojure
03:38	logic_prog	well, clojure + cljs
03:38	bitemyapp	still not what's colloquially understood to be a distributed system.
03:38	bitemyapp	it's a mechanism for factoring out CRUD.
03:39	logic_prog	well, riak + key / value store is involved
03:39	logic_prog	and i'm using multiple machines
03:39	logic_prog	if multiple machines is not distributed, what is?
03:39	marcopolo`	the firebase part sounds pretty distributed
03:40	bitemyapp	just because you're using a replicated database doesn't mean you're really confronting anything about distributed systems
03:40	bitemyapp	you're writing a client, an API server, and another client.
03:40	bitemyapp	that's all firebase is.
03:41	logic_prog	no no, I'm writing this layer
03:41	logic_prog	which amkes real time web apps trivial to write
03:41	bitemyapp	that's like saying because I can change my car's oil and top the fluids, I'm a Formula One pit mechanic.
03:41	logic_prog	there's multiple clients, + a clojure server
03:41	bitemyapp	logic_prog: it's not real-time.
03:41	logic_prog	riak is not, my stuff is
03:41	logic_prog	over websockets
03:41	marcopolo`	I guess the distributed part is in the database
03:41	bitemyapp	logic_prog: no, it's not.
03:41	bitemyapp	logic_prog: you're misusing words.
03:42	logic_prog	bitemyapp: I'm writing a single page web app, supporting rela time chat + rela time blackboard
03:42	bitemyapp	logic_prog: real-time means bounded latency, extreme limits, maximum reliability.
03:42	bitemyapp	logic_prog: if you're using a programming language with garbage collection, it's NOT real-time
03:42	logic_prog	I consider IRC to be real time
03:42	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I think you mean streaming API via websockets, not real-time.
03:42	fredyr	logic_prog: www.erlang.org/download/armstrong_thesis_2003.pdf
03:42	bitemyapp	logic_prog: that's not what real-time means and I'm finding it really difficult to talk to you right now.
03:42	AeroNotix	"Real-time" has become far too an overloaded term
03:42	bitemyapp	logic_prog: IRC is also a streaming protocol over a socket.
03:42	logic_prog	bitemyapp: by your definition, anything over the internet is not real time
03:43	logic_prog	bitemyapp: since you can't guarantee latency
03:43	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: it's actually really fucking simple.
03:43	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: I get what it means, originally.
03:43	fredyr	logic_prog: the architecture parts is really good, and iirc programming erland doesn't focus on those parts
03:43	bitemyapp	logic_prog: not really no, real-time is a property of a system. A design goal.
03:43	marcopolo`	bitemyapp: "'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'"
03:43	marcopolo`	-Through the Looking Glass
03:43	AeroNotix	At $DAYJOB I program Erlang, wouldn't mind answering any questions.
03:44	logic_prog	AeroNotix: is erlang rela time? erlang has a gc
03:44	AeroNotix	this library here leaves a bit to be desired, it looks like it just parameterizes try/catch
03:44	AeroNotix	logic_prog: I never, ever said Erlang was real time..
03:44	bitemyapp	logic_prog: erlang's GC is designed around soft real-time constraints, the JVM's is not.
03:44	bitemyapp	logic_prog: and it's still, AT BEST, soft real-time.
03:44	AeroNotix	though, Erlang has a pretty interesting design for its garbage collector.
03:45	AeroNotix	Each scheduler has its own GC, which means you can't block the other schedulers when GCing
03:45	logic_prog	bitemyapp: upon further research
03:45	logic_prog	bitemyapp: it looks like you are right
03:45	bitemyapp	No fucking shit.
03:45	bitemyapp	You can't really do GC in a real-time system. Hell, you can't even really use vanilla malloc due to heap fragmentation. You're generally talking statically allocated memory.
03:45	logic_prog	bitemyapp: thanks for clarifying the definition of relatime (not sarcastic; apparently I was wrong)
03:46	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: No need to be like this.
03:46	logic_prog	no no, I like people who can't tolerate incorrectness
03:46	bitemyapp	logic_prog: it's fine, I just get tired of hearing startup bullshit repeated back to me
03:46	logic_prog	I don't want some "yeah, it's sorta almost correct" person writing my airplane software
03:46	AeroNotix	logic_prog: why are you always writing relatime?
03:46	logic_prog	or nuclear plant / power grid software
03:46	AeroNotix	relatime is a thing for filesystems
03:46	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I live in the bay area and I have people describe things like websockets as "real-time" to me all the time when I grew up learning from programmers that worked on actual real-time and embedded systems. The trivialization of serious, difficult engineering work is a pet peeve in the extreme for me.
03:47	logic_prog	AeroNotix: because I should have been saying stremaing instead
03:47	AeroNotix	logic_prog: rela vs real
03:47	bitemyapp	and the popularization of streaming socket-based protocols is a good thing. They make certain modalities/applications more efficient.
03:47	logic_prog	AeroNotix: latency in my keyboard
03:47	bitemyapp	but they're not real-time.
03:47	fredyr	non real time keyboard
03:47	fredyr	:)
03:47	logic_prog	bitemyapp: we hold a mutual disregard for people who believe CSS + Javascript = computer science
03:47	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: unfortunately, real-time has also this meaning
03:48	logic_prog	bitemyapp: do you intend to do a startup someday?
03:48	logic_prog	bitemyapp: how much would it cost to hire you away from your current job?
03:49	TEttinger	logic_prog, if you have to ask, you're not worthy lifts nose in the air
03:50	AeroNotix	Yeah, also if you lead a proposition with a money offer, I get suspicious
03:50	AeroNotix	back to that 'Erlang supervisors for Clojure'
03:51	AeroNotix	it just look like it parameterizes try/catch blocks and allows you to add new catch expressions at runtime.
03:51	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I gave up a substantial chunk of income to take my current job, so it's hard to compete on that level unless it's "retire in 3-4 years" money.
03:51	AeroNotix	Doesn't really look like a supervision tree
03:51	AeroNotix	A supervisor fundamentally needs to be able to arbitrarily kill any other Pid in the system
03:52	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I earn a salary typical for senior engineers at startups in SF.
03:52	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: out of curiosity, what is that?
03:52	AeroNotix	I'm in PL
03:52	AeroNotix	But I get paid very well for PL
03:52	marcopolo`	PL?
03:52	bitemyapp	Portland?
03:52	AeroNotix	poland
03:52	logic_prog	junior enginer is $100K
03:52	bitemyapp	oh, well nevermind then.
03:52	logic_prog	top junior is $200k / year
03:52	ddellacosta	wat
03:52	logic_prog	senior engineer should be up around 300-400k / year
03:53	TEttinger	waaaaaat
03:53	bitemyapp	er, no.
03:53	ddellacosta	where do I sign up
03:53	AeroNotix	according to the googles I get $68k
03:53	ddellacosta	I'll be junior
03:54	bitemyapp	http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Senior+Software+Engineer&l1=San+Francisco
03:54	AeroNotix	but considering that minimum wage is $6k, I'm pretty happy.
03:54	AeroNotix	also, AeroNotix has potato now
03:54	fredyr	programmer fantasy league
03:55	fredyr	:s
03:55	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: yeah but a house is $1,300,000 and rent for a two bedroom is $3k/mo
03:55	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: lol latvia
03:55	sm0ke	guys
03:55	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: I'm not Polish fwiw.
03:55	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yah, Tokyo's not bad, I can't complain.
03:55	AeroNotix	I just moved here because I'm an idiot.
03:55	sm0ke	how do i defined a static final field in gen-class?
03:55	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: yeah why did you do that?
03:55	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: I have a Polish wife
03:56	marcopolo`	sm0ke: I thought that was default?
03:56	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: yeah why did you do that?
03:56	bitemyapp	haha, jk jk :)
03:56	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: that's absolutely insane, I would never move anywhere for a foreign wife
03:56	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: are you 12?
03:56	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: sorry, bad joke. I live in Japan married to a Japanese woman. ;-)
03:56	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: not funny without context.
03:56	sm0ke	marcopolo`: just final i guess
03:57	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: ohhh ok
03:57	sm0ke	marcopolo`: static final?
03:57	logic_prog	http://michaeldrogalis.tumblr.com/post/46560874730/beautiful-separation-of-concerns <-- this is pretty nifty
03:58	ddellacosta	logic_prog: just saw that the other day. I don't end up using exceptions that much in Clojure though, haven't had a big use for dire yet. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
03:58	sm0ke	so is it possible to have serialVersionUID in gen-class generated class?
03:58	logic_prog	ddellacosta: your computer is afraid of you and never dare do anything wrong
03:58	logic_prog	unfortunately, my computer is rebellious
03:58	ddellacosta	logic_prog: you know, you gotta show it who's boss
03:58	TEttinger	sm0ke, sure isn't it just a def?
03:58	marcopolo`	logic_prog: need more monads
03:59	sm0ke	TEttinger: what do you mean?
03:59	ddellacosta	logic_prog: dire does look nice though, superior to standard try/catch stuff
03:59	TEttinger	would (def serialVersionUID 1) work?
04:00	sm0ke	i need a TEttinger no i need a static variable by that name
04:00	sm0ke	lol
04:00	sm0ke	TEttinger no i need a static variable by that name
04:00	TEttinger	ah ok
04:01	TEttinger	I think there's some good doc for this somewhere
04:01	sm0ke	i could find anything relevant
04:01	sm0ke	couldnt*
04:01	sm0ke	ugh
04:01	marcopolo`	"By default Vars are static"
04:01	marcopolo`	http://clojure.org/vars
04:02	TEttinger	By adding metadata – via #^{:static true} – to a method declaration you can also define static methods.
04:02	marcopolo`	you can add ^:const and that might make them final? There isn't much documentation on that
04:02	TEttinger	or in recent clojure, ^:static might work?
04:02	sm0ke	i dont get it..where do i add these meta?
04:02	TEttinger	on the method or var def
04:02	marcopolo`	(def :^const foo 42)
04:03	marcopolo`	bitemyapp: what times are we allowed to talk about haskell again?
04:04	ddellacosta	ha
04:04	sm0ke	marcopolo`: yyou mean like by (def :^const myclass-foo 42) if prefix is "myclass-"
04:04	TEttinger	sm0ke: http://stackoverflow.com/a/3809010
04:04	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: the bosses aren't awake, go for it.
04:04	TEttinger	there's some examples there of ^:static
04:04	sm0ke	would that work?
04:04	SparkySparkyBoom	is there a clojure wrapper for postgresql
04:05	marcopolo`	SparkySparkyBoom: korma and yesql are both nice
04:05	marcopolo`	sm0ke: yeah I think so, I've never had much luck with gen-class though
04:06	sm0ke	wow this is hard
04:06	marcopolo`	do you need gen-class, proxy wouldn't work?
04:06	SparkySparkyBoom	marcopolo`, ty for the suggestion. i tried searching on google, but i just found a bunch of tutorials on how to setup jdbc
04:07	marcopolo`	haha no problem
04:07	logic_prog	given an exception object
04:07	logic_prog	is there a simple way of getting all the *.clj lines of the stack trace?
04:07	logic_prog	it's sorta retarded to see all these *.java lines in the stack trace
04:07	marcopolo`	you could filter the lines based of a regex for starters?
04:08	marcopolo`	but it is on of the hot topics in the community of why stack traces show everything
04:08	TEttinger	"I'm getting a stacktrace in my stacktrace reader!"
04:08	marcopolo`	one of*
04:09	logic_prog	lol
04:09	sm0ke	doesnt work that way
04:09	sm0ke	what bullcrap!
04:10	TEttinger	sm0ke, yeah gen-class isn't easy
04:10	TEttinger	is your code available?
04:10	ddellacosta	SparkySparkyBoom: alternatively, clojure.java.jdbc + HoneySQL is a nice combo.
04:11	sm0ke	TEttinger: just take any gen-class i guess, nothing special
04:11	sm0ke	i just need a static variable there
04:11	SparkySparkyBoom	ddellacosta, honeysql looks promising
04:13	ddellacosta	SparkySparkyBoom: I find the combination of clojure.java.jdbc + HoneySQL to be nice as HoneySQL merely generates SQL, and clojure.java.jdbc. gives you execution of prepared statements--I find it to be a nice separation of concerns.
04:14	SparkySparkyBoom	ddellacosta, i see what you mean
04:16	egghead	wut in the, why is my cljs app making 'SELECT' http requests to my app :\|
04:16	sm0ke	seems impossible, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15062179/how-to-generate-a-serializable-java-class-in-clojure-by-gen-class
04:16	sm0ke	no answer since 1 year
04:30	TEttinger	sm0ke, hm? I'll take a look, but I just accessed a static variable from gen-classs
04:31	machrider	does 'lein run' imply 'lein compile'? (it seems not to, as my gen-class call doesn't work unless i manually 'lein compile' first)
04:31	TEttinger	(def ^:static truf true) ; in one file
04:31	TEttinger	machrider, check :aot in project.clj
04:32	TEttinger	then (myClass/truf) in another file that imported the first gen-class (myClass here), and it evals to true
04:32	machrider	TEttinger: i tried adding :aot [mynamespace.core] to no avail
04:32	TEttinger	lein run should imply compilation. not sure if something's off
04:33	TEttinger	what's your leiningen version?
04:33	machrider	1.7.1 (linux mint's package)
04:33	machrider	i should probably install lein 2...
04:34	TEttinger	yeah, that could be it
04:40	daGrevis	hi! i can't seem to understand the difference of mod and rem functons
04:41	TEttinger	,[(mod -5 6) (rem -5 6)]
04:41	clojurebot	[1 -5]
04:41	daGrevis	ohh, it has the difference with negative number
04:42	TEttinger	also rem is ever so slightly faster since it doesn't involve an internal conditional
04:42	TEttinger	but I can't be sure
04:42	daGrevis	well if i say in my head -10 / 3, my heads tells me it's -1
04:42	daGrevis	not 2.
04:43	pyrtsa	daGrevis: Depends on your definition of the modulo operation. IMO, the result 2 is more useful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo_operation
04:43	TEttinger	each has different uses. if you only use non-negative numbers, rem is slightly better (also plays nice with primitive math I think)
04:44	pyrtsa	,(quot -10 3)
04:44	clojurebot	-3
04:44	pyrtsa	^ With that definition of quot, -1 makes sense though.
04:45	pyrtsa	Yet, an integer division like (div -10 3) => -4 is often pretty useful.
04:45	pyrtsa	(I.e. round towards negative infinity.)
04:47	gws	,[(mod -10 3) (mod 10 -3)]
04:47	clojurebot	[2 -2]
04:53	asmala	I'm working on porting hiccup to cljs and I'd like to write a test (using cemerick.cljs.test) that would need to compare two instances of goog.Uri. It appears that (= (goog.Uri "/") (goog.Uri "/
04:53	asmala	…")) returns false
04:56	asmala	I'm assuming this is because "=" is trying to compare them via (identity?) rather than logical equivalence
04:58	gws	that's an ellipsis in the second inner form
04:58	asmala	short of implementing IEquiv on goog.Uri, is there an elegant way of getting sane behavior for a goog.Uri comparison?
04:58	asmala	aye, that's me hitting return at the wrong point in a sentence ;-)
05:00	ddellacosta	asmala: just curious, is there a reason you aren't just using hiccups? (https://github.com/teropa/hiccups)
05:03	asmala	ddellacosta: indeed, for practical reasons that (or crate, sablono, dommy, etc.) would suffice. I'm hoping a smaller hiccup core would allow target independent base libraries to be written, with target specific compilers. See https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/issues/75#issuecomment-31899718
05:03	ddellacosta	asmala: ah, gotcha--thanks!
05:04	asmala	for reference, I solved the issue by implementing IEquiv for goog.Uri.
05:05	ddellacosta	asmala: it would be great to have that kind of solution for hiccup. We were trying to convert tinsel to something that generated string vs. dom nodes (https://github.com/ddellacosta/tinsel) but your proposed solution would be superior as a general approach.
05:06	logic_prog	' = quote, what does ` = ? what is the actual function name that ` maps to?
05:06	logic_prog	s/funciton/macro
05:07	AeroNotix	logic_prog: syntax quote
05:07	logic_prog	"syntax quote" is not a valid function name
05:07	logic_prog	or a valid macro name
05:07	asmala	ddellacosta: that's neat. I'm hoping that an extraction of the common bits of hiccup would make projects like tinsel easier. I've seen way too many essentially identical implementations of defelem, link-to, etc.
05:08	logic_prog	both syntax-quote and syntaxquote seem to be nil
05:08	AeroNotix	logic_prog: there's no equaivalent, but that's what it's called.
05:08	ddellacosta	asmala: absolutely agree. Very interested in where you go with it.
05:08	logic_prog	I can do (quote a) instead of 'a ... what is the equiv of `a ?
05:08	AeroNotix	logic_prog: don
05:08	AeroNotix	don't think there is one
05:08	logic_prog	what?
05:08	logic_prog	how is that possible?
05:08	AeroNotix	I said: I DON'T THINK THERE IS ONE
05:08	logic_prog	(defmacro try+ [& body] (quasiquote (slingshot.slingshot/try+ ~@body)))
05:09	logic_prog	how can I write amacro that will take 2 arguments, and alias one amcro as anothe rmacro ?
05:09	AeroNotix	you just call the macro in the body
05:09	AeroNotix	if I understand what you're trying to do
05:09	AeroNotix	you just want to refer to slingshot.slingshot/try+ as just try+?
05:10	AeroNotix	why don't you use the normal :require statements to do this?
05:10	AeroNotix	logic_prog: ^
05:11	logic_prog	I want to have a file macros.all
05:11	logic_prog	which lists all the macros I use
05:11	logic_prog	I don't think :requre :refer is transitive
05:11	logic_prog	then I wnat to do (:use [macros.all])
05:11	logic_prog	and import all my macros
05:11	logic_prog	I realize there is a question here os "n00b, you have too many macros"
05:12	logic_prog	but I do have like ~10 commonly used macros
05:12	AeroNotix	no, it's "noob, learn to not make people hate you by importing symbols like that"
05:12	AeroNotix	Namespaces are A Good Thing
05:13	logic_prog	good decisions come from wisdom
05:13	logic_prog	wisdom comes from being a n00b
05:13	logic_prog	i need to shoort myself in the foot to learn not so thoot myself in the knee
05:13	AeroNotix	:require :refer in one namespace does not put the :referred items into the namespace, that's correct. I'd not want it any other way.
05:13	alew	what if the ns using that macro doesn't have slingshot included
05:13	AeroNotix	alew: this
05:14	AeroNotix	If you syntax quote something like that, it'll just replace try+ with the slingshot call. Which you would then need to have in the namespace where you use try+
05:14	AeroNotix	unless you don't syntax quote the slingshot one, and let it expand
05:14	alew	at that point you might as well just require refer the fn
05:15	AeroNotix	Exactamundo
05:15	logic_prog	no, I have a main.cljx
05:15	alew	you could be hacky and unquote the slingshot.slingshot/try+
05:15	logic_prog	which includes all dependencies
05:15	logic_prog	so the slingshot.slingshot is guaranteed to be already loaded
05:15	logic_prog	even if it's not :required
05:16	logic_prog	then, sinc eit's loaded, cljore will have access to it :-)
05:16	AeroNotix	Ugh, I'm out.
05:16	logic_prog	if namespace foo.bar is (1) loaded and (2) not required from stupid.cljx, stupid.cljx stil has acess to foo.bar
05:16	alew	"loaded"?
05:17	logic_prog	yes,
05:17	logic_prog	(ns main (:require [foo.bar] [stupid]))
05:17	logic_prog	thus, foo.bar is loaded because main required it
05:17	ddellacosta	trying to wrap my head around the use-cases for set-state! and transact!/update! in Om--seems like transact! is used for updating the data which you are representing in the DOM itself?
05:17	AeroNotix	logic_prog: it's available in main
05:17	ddellacosta	(same for update! ?)
05:17	logic_prog	it's available everywhere
05:17	alew	No
05:18	ddellacosta	but not really understanding when you would use set-state!
05:18	alew	it's only available in that ns
05:18	AeroNotix	exactly
05:18	AeroNotix	Otherwise, madness?
05:18	xificurC	I am trying to use clojure-csv to parse only the first 10 lines of a csv file. The function parse-csv from the library is already lazy and says "Be careful to ensure that if you read lazily from a file or some other resource that it remains open when the sequence is consumed". Now how do I do that? If I do a with-open and try take 10 I get an error that the stream was closed :(
05:18	logic_prog	no, the full name is available everywhere
05:18	fredyr	ddellacosta: set-state is when you want to use the react components state
05:19	fredyr	ddellacosta: same as .setState
05:19	ddellacosta	fredyr: I think I even get that, I guess I just don't even get why you would want to do that--isn't Om replacing that mechanism with the cursor more or less?
05:20	fredyr	ddellacosta: yeah, i think youre right
05:20	fredyr	ddellacosta: but you might wanna reuse others vanilla js components
05:20	fredyr	ddellacosta: or otherwise
05:20	ddellacosta	fredyr: I see, and that would let you do that?
05:20	alew	xificurC: use doall to immediately evaluate take
05:21	fredyr	ddellacosta: yes i believe so
05:21	xificurC	alew: will that not evaluate the whole file?
05:21	ddellacosta	fredyr: alright, thanks, that is helpful and puts me in the right direction. I'll keep reading through the code.
05:21	alew	(doall (take 10 file))
05:22	alew	that will give you the lines immediately
05:22	xificurC	alew: thanks. I thought doall would automatically force to evaluate the whole seq
05:22	fredyr	ddellacosta: np, i still have trying re-use of js components with om on my todo
05:22	fredyr	ddellacosta: i been wanting to try something like https://github.com/petehunt/react-touch-lib/blob/master/src/primitives/AnimatableContainer.js
05:23	alew	xificurC: only if you call it on the whole seq :P
05:23	fredyr	ddellacosta: being able to reuse component libraries without modification is a sweet spot, would be great if om could support it nicely
05:23	ddellacosta	fredyr: interesting, this would let you perform arbitrary transformations on SVG elements inside?
05:23	ddellacosta	fredyr: yah
05:25	xificurC	alew: so (doall (take 11 file)) will only take and create the first 11 but (take 11 (doall file)) would first create everything and then take the first 11
05:26	logic_prog	woe is the world
05:26	logic_prog	(defmacro def-macro-alias [nm1 nm2] (let [gs (gensym)] (list 'defmacro nm1 (vector '& gs) (list concat (list 'quote nm2) gs))))
05:26	logic_prog	my evil macro has been written
05:26	logic_prog	teehee, a macro that calls defmacro
05:27	asmala	why does java.net.URLEncoder encode space as "+" and not "%20"?
05:31	alew	xificurC: yes
05:32	alew	asmala: I think it's an optimization
05:33	asmala	alew: A standard one? Just gets a bit tricky with goog.string/urlEncode using "%20"
05:33	alew	asmala: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1634271/url-encoding-the-space-character-or-20
05:36	asmala	alew: thanks, that was helpful. I'll stick to the + as it's also what the clj implementation (of hiccup) is using
05:56	fredyr	ddellacosta: are you just looking into om, or poking around writing something?
05:58	ddellacosta	fredyr: we are thinking of using it in our front-end, so I'm just learning as much as I can about how it works. We stumbled on a similar architecture independently, in terms of the way we update our application state and render--minus the virtual DOM and intelligent checks on updating--that was the missing piece.
05:58	fredyr	ddellacosta: ah, sounds cool
05:59	fredyr	ddellacosta: and might be a good fit then also
05:59	ddellacosta	fredyr: yeah, exactly. I basically had a half-assed version of it implemented already when I started hearing dnolen talking about it on twitter and IRC.
05:59	AeroNotix	I'm looking at this https://github.com/michaeldrogalis/dire/
06:00	AeroNotix	and I really cannot see what's different about it, it just looks like it's maintaining a list of handlers for functions
06:00	AeroNotix	when they raise Exceptions
06:00	AeroNotix	almost like a parameterized (catch) block
06:00	AeroNotix	Nothing like Erlang supervisors at all
06:01	AeroNotix	Even the 'restarts' (self-correcting) is gimmicky
06:02	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Lisp-style continue/restart wasn't a good idea anyway
06:02	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: ehhh, for real applications? Nope. For REPL-based programming, yep!
06:03	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: I think the point is that it separates out exception-handling stuff from the function logic. In that sense I think it promotes a nice separation of concerns. Granted, I don't have a huge problem with exceptions as it is now, so...
06:03	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: It's an interesting system, just for the novelty of it.
06:03	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: It's a bit strong calling it "Erlang style"
06:03	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: but why on Earth would you want that separated in such a way? I don't get it.
06:04	AeroNotix	With Erlang, it's a little bit different, you have true Agents which need to be monitored.
06:04	ddellacosta	ddellacosta: I don't know enough about Erlang to comment; but it seems like the only place he's talking about it being Erlang style is here: https://github.com/michaeldrogalis/dire/#usage-erlang-style-with-supervise
06:04	AeroNotix	Exactly
06:04	ddellacosta	whoops, meant that to be YOUR handle
06:04	AeroNotix	He fundamentally does not understand supervisors
06:05	AeroNotix	It
06:05	AeroNotix	It's more than just catching exceptions
06:05	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: as far as why you want it separated, I can see the argument--it makes it nice for composing functions without worrying about exceptions.
06:05	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: and it makes the exceptions feel more like constraints
06:05	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: but then when your program is screwing up, what method do you employ to discover where and when exceptions are being handled?
06:06	AeroNotix	and god forbid, RESTARTING stuff
06:06	AeroNotix	there's not even a mention about side-effects in this read me
06:06	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: well, presumably this doesn't change the fact that an exception is thrown. I mean, I don't think there is anyone here that is claiming that using it = getting erlang in Clojure.
06:06	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: oh yeah, I could agree with that.
06:07	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: The thing is, I want Erlang-style supervision trees in Clojure.
06:07	clgv	AeroNotix: http://docs.caudate.me/ribol/ is nice concerning continue on error
06:07	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: I think part of the problem with CL is that production was just seen as a REPL without a human at the helm 100% of the time.
06:07	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: :)
06:08	AeroNotix	is there anything that is truly like Supervision trees in Clojure?
06:08	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Grumpy old CL'er. Anyway, no. I'd like them too.
06:08	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: but in actuality, what I want is supervision trees in Haskell.
06:08	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: Same difference :) Supervision trees are an excellent method of error handling
06:08	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: been fucking around with green threads in Haskell, it'd be easier to implement there than in core.async/JVM threads.
06:09	bitemyapp	uhhhhh...under a particular programming model they are
06:09	ddellacosta	I was going to say, seems like you could put something together w/core.async, but don't know enough about what is required on top of that.
06:09	bitemyapp	I'd hesitate to recommend supervision trees to somebody who wasn't operating in the Erlang mindset.
06:09	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: it wouldn't be as nice as reified green threads like Haskell.
06:09	AeroNotix	sure, Erlang's whole thing makes it a joy to use. With other languages with different concurrency guarantees it takes a bit more diligence
06:09	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Haskell is pretty damn close.
06:09	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yah? I gotta read up on that.
06:10	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: Learn You Some Erlang
06:10	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: languages like Java, Clojure, etc would be fiddlier.
06:10	AeroNotix	ddellacosta: free online book
06:10	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: man, I got so much to learn first...sigh
06:10	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: Then I need to look into the concurrency with Haskell then :)
06:10	bitemyapp	as a bonus, channels are already a thing in Haskell.
06:10	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: I just started getting into Haskell, because of that bastard bitemyapp
06:10	bitemyapp	so that plus "real" green threads == Erlang-a-go-go.
06:10	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: library or runtime?
06:10	bitemyapp	just don't be an asshole and stuff Data.Dynamic objects into channels.
06:10	bitemyapp	people will find you, and they will kill you.
06:10	AeroNotix	haha
06:10	ddellacosta	heh
06:11	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: the green threads or the channels?
06:11	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: well, both
06:11	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: well it's all Control.Concurrent, which is part of base.
06:11	AeroNotix	ok
06:12	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: as you might imagine, base is fairly fundamental but technically a library. Even the prelude is optional in Haskell.
06:12	bitemyapp	I guess the "catch" is that lower level stuff like base is implemented in terms of GHC primitives.
06:12	bitemyapp	but those same primitives are available to you as a user anyway...so it's distinctly unmagical.
06:13	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: Cool. I read most of LYAH, but I found it a bit... meh. It didn't really show me anything I didn't already know about functional programming. Some monads I saw use of, functor etc. But I just couldn't see the real-world stuff
06:13	AeroNotix	I've got Real World Haskell on my list
06:13	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/Control-Concurrent-Chan.html
06:13	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: is there a bounded version?
06:14	AeroNotix	yes, there is
06:15	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: worth noting the "safe haskell" notation in the top right corner.
06:15	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.6.3/html/users_guide/safe-haskell.html
06:16	AeroNotix	interesting!
06:16	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Also: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-chans-3.0.0/docs/Control-Concurrent-STM-TBChan.html
06:16	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: if it floats your boat, pretend Haskell is a big fat dialyzer for functional code with better error messages and higher-level understanding of the code.
06:17	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: that sweet, sweet hackage (haddock-generated) documentation is like 1/3 of what I like about using Haskell.
06:17	bitemyapp	Can just read the types.
06:17	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: yeah, dialyzer leaves a LOT to be desired. It sometimes doesn't catch incredibly obvious cases, but then will spit out a ridiculous error because of something minor.
06:18	AeroNotix	It's a mess. Erlang really is a ghetto sometimes. I mean that.
06:18	AeroNotix	But the core concepts of the language seem hard to find in other plaes.
06:19	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: it's easier to start static and reclaim dynamicity after the fact with the occasional escape hatch than to go in the other direction.
06:19	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: quite true
06:19	bitemyapp	and I really hesitate to even frame it in terms of "dynamicity" when really that doesn't mean a lot.
06:20	AeroNotix	type unsafe, really
06:20	bitemyapp	really what's meant is "carelessness with sum/product types"
06:20	bitemyapp	Right.
06:20	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: could you compare core.match to Erlang's pattern matching?
06:20	bitemyapp	I get that people want to just sorta blindly sift through JSON and the like, but there are type-safe ways to do so that aren't tedious.
06:21	ddellacosta	alright you crazy cats, I'm going to take a break and exercise. bitemyapp get some sleep.
06:21	ddellacosta	;-)
06:23	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: core.match is "okay" but not really a full citizen of the language in a way that makes it nice.
06:23	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: you're always going to have another layer of arguments, destructuring, and the word "match" inside of your functions if you want to use it prolifically. A macro can clean this up, but ugh.
06:23	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: looking just through the docs and not using it, it just seems to have Erlang's `case' expressions, right?
06:24	bitemyapp	the extensibility is cool though.
06:24	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: basically, yeah.
06:24	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: and it is essentially using interface-based APIs into "types" of data structures. seq'ish, vector'ish, map'ish.
06:25	AeroNotix	I like that it has (or A B) patterns, sorely missing in Erlang
06:26	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Haskell has pattern-matching and guards, but a big plus here that doesn't "hit" you immediately is that the laziness means you get macro-esque behavior by default in Haskell functions.
06:26	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: so composable predicates that don't eval their arguments are the default capability.
06:26	bitemyapp	so about 80-90% of what you ever needed macros for goes "poof"
06:27	bitemyapp	the other 10-20% falls into applicatives or free monads, depending on whom you ask.
06:27	ucb	bitemyapp: http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/jan/14/mogwai-rave-tapes-album-stream
06:27	bitemyapp	there are more sophisticated ways still to do such things, such as actual macros, but meh.
06:27	ucb	bitemyapp: also, I missed your last musics because backlog and limechat
06:27	AeroNotix	huh, mogwai, clojure, fp. Am I home?
06:27	ucb	AeroNotix: \o/
06:27	AeroNotix	:)
06:27	bitemyapp	I like the scottish, mogwai, clojure, fp, and haskell.
06:27	bitemyapp	feels right to me.
06:27	bitemyapp	ucb: danke. let me track it down.
06:28	bitemyapp	ucb:
06:28	bitemyapp	er.
06:28	bitemyapp	dammit
06:28	AeroNotix	Soma.fm has a good radio station I like to listen to, similar stuff. Groovesalad and Spacestation
06:28	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW1VsqiNV4
06:28	ucb	ta much
06:28	ucb	also hai
06:29	bitemyapp	ucb: hi!
06:29	ucb	I trust all is well with you, etc.
06:30	bitemyapp	oh yes. much learning very fun wow
06:30	bitemyapp	ucb: been watching this news about scottish independence with a lot of excitement.
06:30	ucb	interesting
06:31	ucb	what excites you about this?
06:31	bitemyapp	ucb: have some ancestry there but mostly a general republican (political science term) sympathy.
06:32	AeroNotix	Where are some other good Clojure communities? I tried to use G+ but it's... meh
06:33	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: Twitter, here, reddit, hacker news (sorta), the mailing list
06:33	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: cool, cheers
06:34	ucb	bitemyapp: oh, I see.
06:34	bitemyapp	ucb: I found out about it because some CS scholars I follow are sympathetic and equally excited.
06:35	bitemyapp	ucb: what's the sentiment where you are?
06:35	ucb	bitemyapp: excited about the fact that there'll be a referendum? that it might happen?
06:35	ucb	bitemyapp: it's divided between the yays and the mehs and the tehnoes!
06:36	ucb	bitemyapp: just like everything else really. I think the real division is between yes and no.
06:36	ucb	but I'm not following it that closely. Mainly because politics.
06:37	bitemyapp	ucb: I'm not sure it's political-as-such for me, just interesting.
06:37	ucb	bitemyapp: indeed it is. And the implications are pretty big if you ask me. It's just that I find the debate sort of void of content.
06:38	cark	bitemyapp: there was this talk from peter seibel about restarts and conditions, I think he makes a good case for these
06:38	ucb	bitemyapp: it mostly revolves around "oh, but if we were independent we could hate the English while being rich" and "if you were independent you would not be able to keep the pound, get international credit, nor be a part of the EU"
06:38	cark	i'm a bit late to the party =P
06:38	bitemyapp	cark: I'm familiar with it and every other argument on the subject
06:38	bitemyapp	cark: I was...utterly immersed in CL culture for a long time.
06:38	bitemyapp	I'm increasingly skeptical of it except for debugging in a REPL.
06:39	bitemyapp	I don't think making reliance on implicit state "easier" is a good thing at all.
06:39	bitemyapp	ucb: is there really any doubt about scotland being able to get into the EU after the fact?
06:39	cark	well, CL is statefull
06:39	bitemyapp	ucb: particularly if they believe they have money?
06:39	bitemyapp	cark: so is Clojure and Haskell and everything else.
06:39	bitemyapp	cark: the question is how principled and disciplined you are about managing that state.
06:40	ucb	bitemyapp: I haven't a clue. Many political editors/analysts say that it'd be a tough negotiation. Which I believe it would be. It'd probably end favourably, but still.
06:40	cark	bitemyapp: clojure and haskell want to be as little of that as possible
06:40	cark	bitemyapp: CL has no shame about it
06:40	bitemyapp	ucb: tough negotiation? after the eastern european nations got in?
06:40	ucb	bitemyapp: do you really believe that if Scotland was to be independent it'd get to keep all the oil money while keeping just a fraction of national debt?
06:40	ucb	bitemyapp: well, it's all in the details really.
06:40	bitemyapp	cark: that's not an entirely accurate characterization about Clojure or Haskell.
06:41	ucb	bitemyapp: for instance: would Scotland adopt the Euro?
06:41	bitemyapp	cark: it's about having a variety of options and using the right defaults at the right time.
06:41	bitemyapp	ucb: I would dearly love to know the SNP answer to currency.
06:41	logic_prog_	is there a way, in clojure, when dealing with java interop, to say: "if there is a field called .data", then do (.-data obj), else do "nil" ?
06:41	logic_prog_	i.e. the behavior of ":data" (get me the value if the key exists, otherwise nil)
06:41	bitemyapp	ucb: but adopting the Euro would've been my guess.
06:41	cark	bitemyapp: hey we're both sold on that... but i would argue that different stuff works with diifferent languages
06:41	logic_prog_	but instead, I want to do this to a java field : ... if the field exists, get me the value, otherwise give me null
06:41	ucb	bitemyapp: same here. But they rarely (if ever) talk about this. They talk about money in magical terms: "money"
06:41	bitemyapp	mutable closures gag.
06:42	bitemyapp	ucb: scotland should bring ducats back.
06:42	ucb	heh
06:42	bitemyapp	or the heads of slain english, as a currency.
06:42	bitemyapp	the mint will be pike-wielding headhunters.
06:42	ucb	in any case, the issue is far trickier than the media portraits it if you ask me.
06:43	AeroNotix	logic_prog_: create a getter
06:43	bitemyapp	oh sure.
06:43	xificurC	anyone using seesaw? I am trying to do something rather simple, I have a textbox and I'd like to fix its size
06:43	bitemyapp	ucb: well it's an issue affecting populations of ~5mm and ~50mm people
06:43	AeroNotix	logic_prog_: or again, a macro
06:43	bitemyapp	ucb: meanwhile, I live in a state of ~50mm people in a country of ~300mm :)
06:44	ucb	bitemyapp: I'm not saying it's a minor issue, though I shiver at the thought that people will go and vote on an issue based on very shallow information.
06:44	bitemyapp	ucb: have you been following how people vote typically?
06:44	gws	as they have been doing since time immemorial
06:44	bitemyapp	ucb: it generally boils down to what they think will lead to them having more money or who they hate the most.
06:44	ucb	bitemyapp: I have not, but I suspect it's rather rudimentary.
06:44	ucb	heh - no surprises there.
06:44	bitemyapp	worse, it's rarely rational.
06:44	bitemyapp	let alone informed & rational.
06:45	ucb	so the English should say they want an independent Scotland then.
06:45	ucb	which many actually do as they see Scotland as a leech/poor neighbour
06:45	bitemyapp	I've heard that before
06:45	bitemyapp	I wonder how the north sea oil shakes out money-wise, though?
06:47	ucb	it's difficult to say
06:47	ucb	oil is refined down South afaik
06:47	bitemyapp	ucb: actually, I just looked it up.
06:47	ucb	ok, enlighten me
06:49	bitemyapp	ucb: well I'm having a hard time pinning it down to exact, year-by-year figures (they're just telling me peaks and troughs)
06:49	bitemyapp	ucb: but basically, the north sea oil output for the UK's (scotland's?) share is roughly equivalent to Norway's.
06:50	bitemyapp	ucb: given that norway has a similar population to scotland, the economic impact could be extrapolated.
06:50	xificurC	is it possible that I am getting `Lisp nesting exceeds max-list-eval-depth` even though the parens are ok? Sometimes it seems my emacs bugs out after a change in some file but when I simply restart it it works fine
06:50	bitemyapp	all very rough numbers though.
06:51	ucb	bitemyapp: fair enough; I don't doubt that the oil money distributed amongst a smaller population would be a good thing to do/have.
06:51	ucb	bitemyapp: but again, details. Another issue: army? yes, no, size?
06:51	bitemyapp	ucb: well it could mean, long-term, a state managed fund for the wealth like norway's.
06:51	bitemyapp	which would be, uh, really good.
06:52	ucb	bitemyapp: I mean, it's mostly paperwork (maybe not all of it) that has already been taken care of by the fact that Scotland is part of the UK. And I'm not saying this is a showstopper, but rather that these things aren't being debated.
06:52	ucb	bitemyapp: absolutely. Assuming they don't piss it away on tenents.
06:53	bitemyapp	alright alright, bedtime for me.
06:53	bitemyapp	Goodnight all. Dream happy functional dreams. Sugar-plums and supervisor trees.
06:53	ucb	heh - night bitemyapp
06:56	sm0ke	89% of clojure bugs are unassigned
06:56	sm0ke	is clojure being developed anymore?
06:58	AeroNotix	sm0ke: link to tracker?
06:58	AeroNotix	I'll assign then all to you
06:59	sm0ke	haw haw haw
06:59	AeroNotix	sm0ke: as with all open sores project, they have open sores.
07:00	sm0ke	AeroNotix: are you a core dev?
07:00	AeroNotix	sm0ke: nope
07:00	AeroNotix	but I could be
07:00	AeroNotix	So can you
07:00	AeroNotix	the power is YOURS
07:00	sm0ke	ooh
07:00	sm0ke	inspiring
07:01	AeroNotix	https://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/list
07:01	sm0ke	lol
07:01	AeroNotix	sort by priority, implement the Low ones, get acquanted.
07:01	sm0ke	i think clojure uses JIRA
07:01	AeroNotix	I saw that, but it needed a login
07:02	gws	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ
07:03	AeroNotix	gws: how do I jira
07:04	gws	click agile tab, feel raw power
07:05	AeroNotix	am I being kanbanned
07:54	danoyoung	I'm trying to understand why I get different results from example 3 from the dose examples @ clojuredocs: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/doseq
07:54	danoyoung	when I cut and paste into the repo, I get 4 6 nil
07:55	danoyoung	anyone have ideas on why? I'm just learning clojure and am walking thru the examples....
08:05	fredyr	danoyoung: i get 4 6 as well
08:05	shoky	danoyoung: it's because (map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})
08:05	danoyoung	hmm..typo on the site i guess??
08:05	lazybot	danoyoung: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
08:05	shoky	danoyoung: er, that's returning a differnet order than in their example
08:06	shoky	so (* b d) is getting a different result
08:06	danoyoung	yea, the results on the site are 3 8 nill
08:06	shoky	run: (map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})
08:06	shoky	and see you'll get a different order than they do
08:06	danoyoung	i'm just learning clojure, so trying to understand why I get different results.
08:06	edbond	,(map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})
08:06	clojurebot	(([:1 1] [:4 4]) ([:2 2] [:3 3]))
08:06	shoky	i'm explaining just that..
08:06	danoyoung	ok, that makes sense….
08:08	danoyoung	so the order in (map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4}) doesn't matter ???
08:08	lazybot	danoyoung: How could that be wrong?
08:09	shoky	the order in a map {} doesn't matter
08:09	edbond	and order of * doesn't matter too
08:09	edbond	,(*)
08:09	clojurebot	1
08:09	shoky	so instead of matching :1 1 with :3 :3 as in their example, :1 1 is getting matched with :4 4
08:09	danoyoung	if I take the example from the site and cut and paste into the repo: (doseq [[[a b] [c d]] (map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})] (prn (* b d))) I get 4 6 nil vs 3 8 nil
08:09	shoky	stop repeating that
08:10	edbond	danoyoung, example is incorrect
08:10	danoyoung	ok, just trying to make sure I understand….
08:10	shoky	example is correct..
08:10	AeroNotix	,(class (byte-array))
08:10	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/byte-array>
08:10	AeroNotix	,(class (byte-array 10))
08:10	clojurebot	[B
08:10	AeroNotix	That^ is dogshit
08:10	shoky	it's just that the order of the items in the hashmap is different
08:10	AeroNotix	[B? What on Earth is that
08:10	AeroNotix	looks like I didn't null terminate something
08:11	tbaldridge	, (class (into-array Object [42]))
08:11	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.Object;
08:11	tbaldridge	AeroNotix: no, it's just the way the JVM creates class names for objects
08:12	AeroNotix	tbaldridge: It's extremely unhelpful/unreadable
08:15	edbond	AeroNotix, http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Class.html#getName()
08:17	AeroNotix	edbond: Dayyummm, poor choice
08:18	shoky	danoyoung: (map list a b) where a and b are maps, takes "first" key-value-pair from each map and puts them together in a list. then same for the "second" kv-pair. in their example, the "first" pairs turned out to be [:1 1] and [:3 3] while when we ran it now, it chose [:1 1] and [:4 4] as "first" pairs instead
08:19	shoky	,{:3 3 :4 4}
08:19	clojurebot	{:4 4, :3 3}
08:19	shoky	see how the order changed for us ^ while when they ran it, the order turned out to be {:3 3, :4 4}
08:20	danoyoung	shoky, thanx…
08:21	danoyoung	makes sense now...
08:23	edbond	,(map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})
08:23	clojurebot	(([:1 1] [:4 4]) ([:2 2] [:3 3]))
08:23	edbond	&(map list {:1 1 :2 2} {:3 3 :4 4})
08:23	lazybot	⇒ (([:1 1] [:4 4]) ([:2 2] [:3 3]))
08:34	socksy	Is there a good option for running core.async over distributed systems? Or is the answer basically "don't"?
08:35	tbaldridge	the semantics of CSP don't really work with distributed systems. But that's okay since you have things like RabbitMQ, Kafka, or ZeroMQ. Pick one and interface it with core.async.
08:35	mdrogalis	socksy: Use it at the edges of the individual components in the distributed system
08:35	quizdr	socksy not sure it applies but there is a demo of Rich Hickey using overtone, a Clojure music library that has a server/client config, and he uses core.async with the connections of the synths
08:36	tbaldridge	quizdr: that's not distributed though
08:39	socksy	yeah, that would presumably be on the same computer. I was thinking something like the alt! macro would be pretty neat over multiple systems (as in, send off something, take fastest response)
08:39	socksy	I probably don't know what I'm talking about though :)
08:40	socksy	any recommendations from a clojure side for wrappings around a message queue/messaging system? I've done some zmq stuff in other languages but ideally would want something stable and idiomatic in clojure
08:41	mdrogalis	socksy: I've been thoroughly enjoying using HornetQ.
08:43	daGrevis	hi! can I somehow write down a really long number on multiple lines?
08:43	daGrevis	with str i can use str fn
08:46	AeroNotix	daGrevis: why do you have such constants?
08:46	daGrevis	AeroNotix, https://projecteuler.net/problem=8
08:47	mdrogalis	nope.jpg
08:47	mdrogalis	daGrevis: Store it in a file.
08:47	daGrevis	one solution would be to use str with strings and then parse out the number using regex
08:47	daGrevis	mdrogalis, imo it's an overhead
08:48	edbond	daGrevis, use (str "<line1>" "<line2>" ....)
08:48	pyrtsa	((comp bigint str) 123 456 789)
08:48	daGrevis	edbond, ye, but I need int
08:48	pyrtsa	,((comp bigint str) 123 456 789)
08:48	clojurebot	123456789N
08:49	daGrevis	pyrtsa cool!
08:49	AeroNotix	daGrevis: oh yeah, I did this
08:49	edbond	daGrevis, not really, you want to split string and then convert to int
08:49	AeroNotix	daGrevis: I just read it from file.
08:49	mdrogalis	daGrevis: It's Euler, just put up with it for 5 minutes. :P
08:49	edbond	btw I read from file too )
08:49	pyrtsa	,((comp bigint str) -123 456 789) ;; crazy enough!
08:49	clojurebot	-123456789N
08:49	AeroNotix	you're just reading and parsing once, I guarantee that the rest of the program is slower
08:49	AeroNotix	100%
08:50	daGrevis	AeroNotix, true that
08:50	daGrevis	comp wont work :(
08:50	daGrevis	one of strings starts with 0
08:52	pyrtsa	,((comp bigint #(java.math.BigInteger. % 10) str) 0123 456 789) ;; crazy enough!
08:52	clojurebot	83456789N
08:52	pyrtsa	Damn.
08:53	AeroNotix	just reada
08:53	AeroNotix	Just. Read. From. File. Damn!
08:53	pyrtsa	Ah, the above works with string arguments of course.
08:53	pyrtsa	AeroNotix: Yes, that's better.
08:53	pyrtsa	Much better.
08:54	pyrtsa	,((comp bigint #(java.math.BigInteger. % 10) str) "0123" "456" "789") ;; Anyway
08:54	clojurebot	123456789N
08:54	daGrevis	http://vpaste.net/DdYIn
08:55	pyrtsa	daGrevis: PROTIP: for that Euler exercise, you don't have to parse the whole number as a BigInteger.
08:55	pyrtsa	Treat the input as separate digits instead.
08:56	daGrevis	pyrtsa, ohh. i should read desc of task 1st :D
08:57	daGrevis	imo a macro could be a solution too
08:59	quizdr	daGrevis has you seen the 4clojure exercises also?
09:00	daGrevis	quizdr, nop. i've done clojure-koans and 1st 7th euler problems only
09:02	quizdr	how are they koans? haven't looked at those yet
09:04	edbond	daGrevis, I think str, partition, reduce and max should be enough
09:05	daGrevis	quizdr, they are awesome! rly helped me a lot https://github.com/daGrevis/clojure-koans
09:05	daGrevis	edbond, to solve the task or to solve “syntax problem“?
09:06	daGrevis	quizdr, https://github.com/daGrevis/clojure-koans/tree/master/src/koans
09:06	edbond	daGrevis, to solve the problem, there is no limit how you should read it. Parse it in .clj and focus on solution :)
09:08	cgrand	ckirkendall: hi
09:08	ckirkendall	hello
09:09	quizdr	well now if i look at your solutions daGrevis then it will spoil the fun :)
09:10	ckirkendall	cgrand:have a few questions on you thoughts about how I should approach kioo and the compile. I also am interested in how you see enliven browser based templates working.
09:12	cgrand	ckirkendall: the story I want for enliven templates is that the same template can be used statically or dynamically (or anywhere in between)
09:12	daGrevis	quizdr, true ;P i recommend this as well. helped me when I was stuck http://clojurescreencasts.com/
09:13	locks	daGrevis: oh, never came across this before :o
09:14	cgrand	specifically you specify where each part of the model lives (server only, server push, local storage, sync etc.) and this will control where in the static-dynamic spectrum the template emits its stuff
09:14	quizdr	daGrevis 4clojure is cool because you can see others' solutions after you figure out yours and see just how versatile and creative the possiblities are to solving a simple (or not so simple) problem
09:15	cgrand	ckirkendall: btw I already applied two of your commits
09:17	ckirkendall	cgrand: I saw on the commits. So lets make sure I understand. You want enliven to be able to chose where the plan, pre-rende and render take place. So so all could exist on the client side or in some hybrid when you either pre-render on server or full server push..
09:18	cgrand	ckirkendall: sort of, yes
09:19	cgrand	ckirkendall: pre rendering is always done server-side
09:19	cgrand	static pre-rendering: emits chunks of HTML
09:20	ckirkendall	cgrand: Ok that makes a bit more sense the way I was thinking about it.
09:20	cgrand	dynamic pre-rendering: emits JS (via CLJS) code
09:21	cgrand	the JS (CLJS) is going to depend of the model lifecycle, not of the actual data so it will be computed only at template definition
09:21	ckirkendall	cgrand: It looks like that won't be too hard given how you have the pre-render setup.
09:21	cgrand	what's your goal with kioo?
09:23	ckirkendall	cgrand: simiar but the target is slightly diffrent. I need to keep the tree intact and output react node structure. With a normal client side template you can use a similar stategy to what you have and output a flatten structure.
09:24	quizdr	has anyone read the OReilly ClojureScript book? Worth it? comparable resources?
09:24	coventry	Hmm, the storm issues list (https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/issues) seems to have disappeared. No issues link on https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/ either.
09:24	ckirkendall	cgrand: I also need to change how things are emitted based on what structure I am emmiting.
09:24	cgrand	ckirkendall: how so?
09:24	ddellacosta	coventry: looks like it's moved to apache, no? https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STORM
09:25	ckirkendall	cgrand: certain things like the style attributes need to be turned into a js-map where other attributes are just strings.
09:25	ckirkendall	cgrand: and even functions
09:26	coventry	ddellacosta: Yes, but the issues list was still there just a few days ago. Bit of a pain, as I have notes linking into recipes in the issues. You're right, though, I can probably find them imported on jira.
09:26	ddellacosta	coventry: ah, gotcha. Yeah, I can see how that would be a bit of a pain...
09:27	cgrand	ckirkendall: do you have some sample (or pseudo) target code?
09:27	ckirkendall	cgrand: I was even planning on modifying the parser to pre spit out styles into a map to make it easier to manage for kioo.
09:28	cgrand	ckirkendall: re-parsing styles, I'm considering phloc-css to parse them
09:32	mdrogalis	This is kind of a wacky request, but has anyone ever done Java runtime code generation? Actual source code, not byte code.
09:35	ckirkendall	cgrand: ploc-css? Are you talking about style nodes like <style>...<style> or are you talking about style attributes?
09:35	vijaykiran	mdrogalis: as in UML to Java :) ?
09:35	cgrand	ckirkendall: both
09:37	ckirkendall	cgrand: I am all for that. It eliminates the need for special segments to manage styles.
09:38	mdrogalis	vijaykiran: Unfortunately PHP to Java. lol
09:39	vijaykiran	mdrogalis: oh, crap.
09:39	vijaykiran	mdrogalis: I vaguely remember some project doing that
09:39	ckirkendall	cgrand: its easy to see how the style attribute would turn into a map, but what would the structure for style block turn into.
09:39	mdrogalis	vijaykiran: Yeah. Fortunately it's a small subset of PHP. But it's still a pain.
09:40	stuartsierra	mdrogalis: Not sure, but maybe http://janino.net/ is relevant
09:40	mdrogalis	stuartsierra: Thanks - yep that's actually the target of translation.
09:41	mdrogalis	I think I'm going to end up writing a parser to generate Janino source blocks. Bleh.
09:41	stuartsierra	ANTLR may also be useful.
09:42	mdrogalis	stuartsierra: Yeah, I think that'll be a good route to go.
09:42	mdrogalis	Thanks :)
09:42	stuartsierra	you're welcome
09:42	vijaykiran	mdrogalis: how much code are you talking about - may be automating it isn't worth it - as in http://xkcd.com/1319/ :)
09:43	mdrogalis	vijaykiran: Appropriate. :P Yeah, it's quite a bit, even though the individual blocks to be translated are small.
09:44	mdrogalis	Oh, that's today's. Nice.
09:44	vijaykiran	yup :)
09:46	ckirkendall	cgrand: I think using goog.string.StringBuffer we could port almost everything over to the client size fairly easily. We would have to use cljx and modify the emitters to product a sequence of strings, and quoted function calls that are returned by a macro. Then we can just reduce across the sequence and pass the data in.
09:47	ckirkendall	cgrand: The flatten structure produced by inline-emmit would work well.
09:48	cgrand	ckirkendall: sorry I was on the phone
09:49	cgrand	ckirkendall: re: styles, I haven't thought enough about the model but something (for <style> themselves) as a map of selectors to styles-map; and you would find the same styles-map in style attributes.
09:52	ckirkendall	cgrand: for kioo I think I may emit something like (let [data-sym data] ...) and then pass the data-sym down the tree and any time I need to output of an action output `(path/fetch-in data-sym)
09:52	ckirkendall	cgrand: does that sound reasonable.
09:53	cgrand	ckirkendall: I'm not sure I understand when you speak about switching to a StringBuilder client side: this would mean that you bash HTML as string on the client before converting it into (V)DOM
09:54	ckirkendall	cgrand: It is the fastest way to do it. Setting inner html is much faster than building up dom nodes.
09:54	ckirkendall	cgrand: Now for kioo I can't do that. I have to output the nodes.
09:55	cgrand	it's still faster? I thought things have changed (especially if you used document fragment and cloned them)
09:55	cgrand	ckirkendall: and which form will have the nodes then?
09:56	ckirkendall	cgrand: It depends on the browser but for chrom I still think its faster.
09:56	ckirkendall	cgrand: I did some testing awhile back when doing enfocus.
09:56	mtrimpe	mdrogalis: You could also just target IntelliJ's AST. I've heard it's quite extensible and should be able to handle what you're intending to throw at it.
09:56	mdrogalis	mtrimpe: That's an interesting idea.
09:57	mdrogalis	I'll check it out.
09:58	mtrimpe	mdrogalis: I'm still hoping someone will do what cgrand did for Clojure with his 'Not so homoiconic' talk (http://confreaks.com/videos/2068-euroclojure2012-not-so-homoiconic) and apply it to IntelliJ's AST.
09:58	ckirkendall	cgrand: If we determin otherwise it would follow the exact same model as kioo.
09:59	mtrimpe	mdrogalis: The we could finally use Clojure to take a chainsaw to legacy Java codebases :)
09:59	ckirkendall	cgrand: I will have to look but I know the makers of Dommy did a lot of performance testing around this.
09:59	mdrogalis	mtrimpe: Will have a watch :)
09:59	cgrand	mtrimpe: sigh buried in my TODO list
10:00	ckirkendall	cgrand: http://andrew.hedges.name/experiments/innerhtml/
10:00	ckirkendall	cgrand: it seems to confirm what I saw in my testing.
10:00	mtrimpe	mdrogalis: It's about carrying formatting around when you're programmatically rewriting clojure code. So not that relevant for your task but still very interesting nonetheless ...
10:00	cgrand	ckirkendall: you would have to measure exactly what you need. With enliven constraints you have enough information to emit plain direct indexed DOM access to the elements you need to modify
10:01	mdrogalis	Ah, yeah. Been there. :/ mtrimpe
10:02	ckirkendall	cgrand: So we would only be taking the hit for the clone. That makes sense.
10:05	cgrand	ckirkendall: ok so you can reuse enliven plans and roll your own emitters
10:05	cgrand	I'll be happy to assist in if you figure out some refactoring to perform o as to reuse the current emitters for static HTML
10:06	cgrand	ckirkendall: beside that, no troubles figuring out what's going on in Enliven?
10:07	ckirkendall	cgrand: took me a bit realize what you were doing with inline-emit but most of it make sense.
10:09	ckirkendall	cgrand: using the plan to the make the changes would be a significant change the flow of enlive. Right now you use the plan to do pre-rendering. In this case we would just emit the original content and use the plan at call time?
10:10	ckirkendall	cgrand: or some hybrid approach?
10:11	cgrand	ckirkendall: in the browser? no I would transform the plan in CLJS code, no more "plan" data structure
10:11	ckirkendall	cgrand: be right back
10:16	cgrand	ckirkendall: https://gist.github.com/cgrand/8521651
10:34	AeroNotix	What's the equivalent of bit expressions in clojure?
10:34	AeroNotix	such as -117 & 0xFF?
10:34	mdrogalis	,(doc bit-and)
10:34	clojurebot	"([x y] [x y & more]); Bitwise and"
10:35	AeroNotix	mdrogalis: boom, cheers
10:35	mdrogalis	^^
10:37	ckirkendall	cgrand: Ok that gist is made me a bit confused. For dynamic do we don't know the direct traversal because the structure of live dom can change. In cases like that I would use querySelector for traversal like enfocus.
10:38	ckirkendall	cgrand: For static templates we can use a fragment and do direct traversal but I can't see how we could ever do that for the live dom.
10:42	cgrand	ckirkendall: I assume enliven owns the DOM (or a subtree of it) so I can keep a record of where are the elements I need to update.
10:44	ckirkendall	cgrand: I completely agree in a model like Om and kioo. Infact that is the bases for how react works.
10:46	cgrand	ckirkendall: one design goal for Enliven was "no tree-walking past definition time"
10:46	cgrand	and querySelector somehow qualifies as (optimized) tree walking
10:47	mmitchel_	Can someone recommend one of these http client libs? http-kit OR neotyk/http-async ?
10:47	mmitchel_	i've used the neotyk lib, but liking the fact that http-kit has no dependencies other than clojure
10:48	ckirkendall	cgrand: What you are describing is similar to something I want to kioo and possilby a formal clojure version of react. I am having a hard time seeing it on top of the live dom vs something like reacts virtual dom wear component definition is self contained.
10:50	cgrand	ckirkendall: an aspect that I didn't mention is event handlers
10:50	cgrand	"event handlers" are transformations
10:50	ckirkendall	cgrand: Either way we can certainly build it but people would have to be very careful about the types of dom changes even made by a transform as its mutable strucuter would make the call only possible once.
10:51	juxovec	is there any possibility to get a source of a given namespace? (the way we use source for functions)
10:51	ckirkendall	cgrand: it really sounds like youa re descrbing a clojure version of react.
10:51	cgrand	ckirkendall: I don't want user to touch a DOM, be it virtual or immutable
10:52	ckirkendall	cgrand: It something that when i first saw enliven I thought could be created.
10:53	cgrand	in "event handlers" you get access to a piece of the model (the one scoped by the path)
10:53	ckirkendall	cgrand: I still think all transforms operate on fragments that replace the live dom and never directly on the live dom. This make sure the input is alway consistant for traversal.
10:55	cgrand	so the handler returns a modified version of the piece of the model which is put back in the model and transforms which depend on it are triggered for rendering
10:55	ckirkendall	cgrand: have you looked at om?
10:56	cgrand	a bit, I need to investigate how much I can use it and/or react
10:57	ckirkendall	cgrand: The idea of om is exactly what you describe. Basically you get a cursor into the model and can change that and all items transforms dependend on it are updated.
10:57	cgrand	(I laid out the design for enliven last spring)
10:58	cgrand	ckirkendall: yes I saw dnolen mentioned lenses and Enliven segments/paths are lenses too
10:58	cgrand	but I haven't had time to look at the invalidation logic
10:59	ckirkendall	cgrand: You see the whole dom structure as a series of nested templates.
10:59	ckirkendall	cgrand: where the model is passed down the chain?
11:00	AeroNotix	I'm having trouble implementing this in Clojure: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/47314dfb31e3fded1d87
11:00	AeroNotix	any pointers?
11:01	cgrand	ckirkendall: nesting only occurs for iteration
11:02	stuartsierra	juxovec: not directly, but you can munge a namespace name into a file name and read it as a resource from the classpath.
11:03	AeroNotix	https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/47314dfb31e3fded1d87 I got this so far
11:03	ckirkendall	cgrand: Here is how I understand what are suggesting. A template owns a piece of the tree (dom or otherwise) the template is rendered based on the model. Only changes in the model can change how the template is rendered. Optimization can be done to only update the items where the model changes.
11:04	juxovec	stuartsierra: but can I do this for code outside my project (for exapmle clojure.core)?
11:04	ckirkendall	cgrand: the underlying imput for the transform is fixed at definition time and all changes are dictated by the changes in the model.
11:04	cgrand	ckirkendall: yes and yes
11:04	ckirkendall	cgrand: this allows for the optimization of traversal and modification.
11:05	cgrand	yes again
11:06	stuartsierra	juxovec: Yes, if the source files are on the classpath, which they normally are. clojure.core is a special case because it is split among several files.
11:06	ckirkendall	cgrand: this is exactly what react, om and kioo goals are. With a few exceptions that make this a bit cooler. One we can use the plan and point free style to optimize the performance of this to be better than reacts.
11:07	cgrand	basically it compels down to an optimized react tailored for your template
11:07	`cbp	AeroNotix: sorry yo no hablo erlang. What are you trying to do and what is the problem?
11:08	ckirkendall	cgrand: The second being that because we have a plan known at compile time we can eliminat the need for the virtual dom and diffs.
11:08	juxovec	stuartsierra: so it is enough to search over classpath for paths where ab.cd.ef-gh is replaced to ab/cd/ef_gh.clj? great thx
11:08	cgrand	ckirkendall: diff shifts from the dom to the model
11:08	ckirkendall	cgrand: yes
11:08	stuartsierra	juxovec: yes. clojure.java.io/resource can find the files on the classpath
11:08	cgrand	ckirkendall: and you still have to take care of not losing the user focus/selection etc.
11:09	ckirkendall	cgrand: this is where the event structure comes in.
11:09	AeroNotix	`cbp: We have a single sign on service which returns a cryptographically secure cookie, I need to decrypt that.
11:09	cgrand	ckirkendall: but because of the hierarchical nature of paths, most of the time (outside of loops) the diff will only be a comparison with the previous value
11:10	ckirkendall	cgrand: and like om because its a persistant data structure it can be an identity check at any layer of the path.
11:10	cgrand	indeed
11:11	dnolen	cgrand: form focus/selection this one thing that React handles pretty well, form elements are one of the only cases you ever have to "touch" the DOM.
11:11	dnolen	cgrand: ckirkendall: one thing is that this sounds like you have to put more in the model? This something I tried in Om but abandoned, you often what to keep a component's local state separate from the application state.
11:13	ckirkendall	cgrand: dnolen: This is something I really like about om. It keeps component internal state out of application state.
11:14	dnolen	cgrand: still this sounds very interesting :) definitely curious about Om w/ a different renderer.
11:16	cgrand	dnolen, ckirkendall: what is the problem with the component state being namespaces inside (or alongside) the application model
11:17	cgrand	?
11:17	dnolen	cgrand: I am very interested in snapshotting, serialization - it just makes those more work you have to do separation yourself.
11:17	ckirkendall	cgrand: its more for usability of reusable components for me. I can build a component that stores local state for activities and only exposes some events for changes to application state.
11:19	dnolen	cgrand: the real long term goal for Om is time management of application state, if you want to do a data diff between two app states you'll get a lot of transient state in your diffs
11:19	dnolen	if you put all state into the model, even transient stuff (mouse dragging, modals, etc)
11:19	AeroNotix	I'm having trouble implementing this in Clojure: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/47314dfb31e3fded1d87 Any pointers?
11:20	cgrand	dnolen: can't a lens remove the non-essential state?
11:21	dnolen	cgrand: but then it's a policy the user has to manage no?
11:23	ckirkendall	dnolan: are you thinking about a datomic style of query for application state?
11:24	dnolen	ckirkendall: querying the timeline is definitely a goal yes
11:24	cgrand	dnolen: given a path (lens) into the model another lens can be generated that will return a pair [application -satte ui-state] without the user having to do anything about it. He just gets an additional arg to his handler
11:25	AeroNotix	great, and the Erlang crypto code is a NIF
11:25	cgrand	dnolen: and the hander has to return a pair too
11:25	dnolen	cgrand: that works, so users could specify if their modifying app state or ui state
11:27	potter	hello
11:27	potter	!list
11:27	cgrand	dnolen: I've been somehow convinced that local state is poison ;-)
11:27	dnolen	cgrand: but does this mean you need to have [app-state ui-state] at the root?
11:27	dnolen	cgrand: haha, the illusion of it is still useful
11:28	cgrand	dnolen: yes but then snapshotting only the application-state is not a problem anymore, is it?
11:29	dnolen	cgrand: if some component doesn't need local state but another one does, can they both live in the same render tree
11:29	dnolen	cgrand: or does the user need to juggle?
11:30	coventry	mdrogalis: Clojurejava sounds like an idea whose time has come.
11:30	cgrand	dnolen: I think they can if it's baked in the event system to make the split app/ui as proposed above
11:30	mdrogalis	coventry: Eh?
11:31	cgrand	dnolen: obviously if it's an opt-in feature you'll get clashes
11:32	dnolen	cgrand: yeah, ok, so in Om by having real local state we get modularity
11:32	dnolen	cgrand: still if Enliven worked that way it would be pretty exciting to have it as an alternate backend to Om :)
11:32	coventry	mdrogalis: Compiling clojure to java to use javac to generate java bytecode.
11:33	coventry	What your question about generating java brought to mind for me.
11:33	coventry	Should have added a smiley. Not serious.
11:33	cgrand	dnolen: the dynamic emitter is not there yet :-) I need time :-(
11:33	mdrogalis	coventry: I need to end up with actual Java source code as a string. D:
11:33	mdrogalis	coventry: I'm having a rough start to this week. ;)
11:34	cgrand	dnolen: but I hope all the constraints will yield good perfs (as they do in the static case)
11:34	ckirkendall	cgrand: Can you put a gist together on the event setup. I still trying to wrap my head around it.
11:40	ckirkendall	cgrand: I going to try to build the template structure for kioo so that the rendering is completely based on enliven. Currently it outputs react nodes but it doesn't have too. I can then use a react wrapper to expose it to om and other.
11:43	the-kenny	dnolen: Have you had a look at the Chrome extension to inspect React applications? It's quite nice, but currently not that easy to use as all Om components have the name 'Unknown' and the state isn't easy to read (as the Clojure data structures aren't easy to inspect)
11:43	ckirkendall	cgrand: I am going to concentrate on the rules for outputting the traversal and modification separate from the dom input.
11:45	cgrand	ckirkendall: not precise enough but still https://gist.github.com/cgrand/8523669
11:46	cgrand	anyway everything is in flux and superficial API is not my problem at the moement
11:46	cgrand	ckirkendall: I have to run
11:46	AeroNotix	I'm having trouble implementing this in Clojure: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/47314dfb31e3fded1d87 Any pointers?
11:50	ckirkendall	cgrand: thanks for chatting
12:17	mrhanky	is it possible to shorten this binding? (binding [ns/a a ns/b b ns/c c ns/d d ns/e e ...] ... ) ?
12:19	sandbags	if ns is always "ns" i guess you could write yourself a macro to explode [a b c d …] into [ns/a a ns/b b …]
12:20	dnolen	the-kenny: yup, React need a patch to make it work
12:21	dnolen	the-kenny: not difficult to do
12:23	eraserhd	So, I have a case where I'd like mutation only to guarantee amortized time of a data structure.
12:23	eraserhd	Its contents do not change in case of this mutation.
12:24	eraserhd	So I want something like an atom inside the data structure, but I don't care if the update gets lost (I mean, I don't want to retry the transaction).
12:24	the-kenny	dnolen: Nice :) I think it would be a helpful addition
12:24	the-kenny	dnolen: Other than that: Thank you so much for Om. You removed so much pain from web-application development (for me)
12:24	eraserhd	Can I just use deftype's mutable field? Do I need to do something else to make an atomic swap?
12:30	grzm	I'm getting started with core.async in Clojurescript and trying to straight-line some serial callbacks
12:30	grzm	I've taken an shot using a gist from dnolen: https://gist.github.com/grzm/8524580
12:31	bbloom	eraserhd: you should study java's synchronized, volatile, etc & understand them before attempting to do mutable fields that are concurrency safe in clojure
12:31	grzm	I'm having issues getting the value out of the go block, basically untangling the go/try/let
12:32	grzm	How should I be approaching it?
12:33	eraserhd	bbloom: Oh, right. Thanks. :)
12:33	edbond	grzm, using channels! (<! (let [out (chan)] (go <do-something> and (>! out <result>))))
12:34	bbloom	grzm: wrap the let in a go and then use <! for each binding expression
12:34	grzm	edbond: don't <! and >! have to be in go blocks well?
12:35	bbloom	grzm: at the "edges" (ie where you interop with callbacks or the top-level) you can use the asynchronous put! and take! functions
12:35	edbond	grzm, yes, should be used in go block
12:36	grzm	bbloom, edbond : thanks. let me give that a shot
12:36	bbloom	grzm: not that put! and take! are functions, not macros or special syntax in a go block. you can use them normally
12:37	edbond	I think take! is not usable in clojurescript, don't have much node exp though
12:37	edbond	also *!! (blocking variants) is not accesible in js, right?
12:37	bbloom	edbond: take! and put! are the primitives that everything is built on internally. they are necessary on any js host to interop with callbacks
12:38	bbloom	edbond: the !! functions aren't variants in blocking, they are variants in threading. the single ! functions are blocking too, but they utilize "parking" instead of real threading primitives
12:39	bbloom	the put! and take! functions are non-blocking & utilize a global queue
12:39	edbond	bbloom, yes you are correct, take! is valid too. I think of take! put! as <! !> wrapped in go macro
12:40	bbloom	edbond: it's the other way around :-) if you ever find yourself writing (go (<! c)) or (go (>! c x)) you could write take! or put! instead respectively
12:40	bbloom	edbond: however, you should avoid asynchronous sends like that b/c are unbounded
12:41	edbond	yes, that's what I meant.
12:42	edbond	avoid because they introduce a new go block?
12:43	bbloom	edbond: no b/c there is no backpressure
12:43	bbloom	edbond: if you have a bounded buffer and it's full, you block
12:43	bbloom	edbond: if you have an unbounded buffer, it can't be full
12:43	bbloom	so senders can overwhelm a receiver
12:43	bbloom	you need to enforce the correct work balance manually
12:44	bbloom	this is true of all event systems, but traditional callbacks are so damn bad at everything that you haven't got the spare brain cycles to think about anything as interesting as back pressure :-)
12:46	edbond	bbloom, thank you for explanation :)
13:20	ro_st	dnolen: what's the right way to have om/react write an unescaped script tag? doing youtube api things
13:20	luxbock	how do I rename a file in Clojure? I have a java.io.File called fff, so what I tried to do was (.renameTo fff (clojure.java.io/file "new-name.ext")) but this returns false and the file name doesn't change
13:20	dnolen	ro_st: that's a react question, don't know.
13:21	ro_st	dnolen: thank you
13:24	luxbock	hmm I must be doing something wrong since (.renameTo (file "old") (file "new")) is how rename is implemented in the fs library
13:25	ro_st	dnolen: what do you suggest my approach be when i encounter things like core.async go blocks not firing or takes from channels not receiving when i put something on them?
13:25	technomancy	error conditions that are communicated by return values. in the 21st century. =(
13:25	ro_st	ran into several such issues over the weekend
13:25	ro_st	all in cljs
13:26	dissipate	does anyone know if it is worth it to create a Docker image for a basic Datomic install?
13:26	dnolen	ro_st: in CLJS in general?
13:26	dnolen	ro_st: just sounds like bugs in the code you're writing.
13:26	ro_st	yes. right now when i encounter such an issue, i'm at a loss about how to proceed with debugging
13:27	dissipate	i want to write a Docker file to create a Docker image for Datomic, with a separate container for the file volume
13:27	dnolen	ro_st: it's take a bit of work to identify core.async problems if you haven't been doing it a while.
13:27	ro_st	we had a channel that received no problem except when writing to it from inside a dom handler. things of that nature
13:27	dnolen	ro_st: still it could be easier, I'm hopefully that simple-check could help w/ async testing
13:27	dnolen	ro_st: automatic detection of dead locks, and checking that invariants are satisfied
13:28	dnolen	even if async
13:28	dnolen	s/hopeful/hopefully
13:28	dnolen	ro_st: in the meantime it just takes some practice
13:28	dissipate	dnolen: deadlocks, wtf?
13:28	dnolen	dissipate: that's the tradeoff w/ CSP, deadlock
13:29	dissipate	dnolen: i thought they were trying to explicitly avoid deadlocks. :(
13:29	dnolen	dissipate: but it something plagues many async message oriented abstractions
13:29	dissipate	dnolen: that sucks. :(
13:29	dnolen	dissipate: no it's reality
13:29	dnolen	nothing to do w/ sucking or not sucking
13:30	dnolen	dissipate: distributed system have to face the same problems
13:30	dissipate	dnolen: correct me if i am wrong but i thought the whole idea of STM was to avoid locking
13:30	dnolen	dissipate: we're talking about CSP, not STM
13:30	ro_st	STM != CSP
13:30	dissipate	dnolen: ah, i see.
13:31	dissipate	dnolen: sounds like Golang
13:31	dnolen	dissipate: or Erlang, similar abstractions
13:31	dnolen	dissipate: or any serious async system
13:31	dissipate	dnolen: what is the advantage of CSP over STM?
13:32	dnolen	dissipate: they don't really address similar problems
13:32	technomancy	what is the advantage of toothpaste over gears?
13:32	TimMc	technomancy: I am going to quote you on that.
13:33	technomancy	STM is a way to coordinate changes to specific pieces of data
13:33	edbond	ro_st, take a look at the end of Markdown http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/tutorial.html#adding-markdown
13:33	technomancy	TimMc: the canonical one is "How is $X better than hadoop" IIRC
13:33	dnolen	dissipate: in CSP you have decoupled components w/ local state trying to communicate with each other. With STM you have multiple threads of control trying to interact sensibly with shared state.
13:33	TimMc	Oh, it was supposed to be silly. I hadn't read backlog, so I thought those were the names of related Clojure libraries. :-P
13:33	edbond	there is some dangerouslySetInnerHTML thing in reactjs, may help
13:33	edbond	ro_st, ^
13:33	ro_st	thanks edbond!
13:34	dnolen	dissipate: I'm sure there's some deep theoretical statement that says they are effectively equivalent, but the interface presented means you model solutions to your problems very differently.
13:35	dissipate	dnolen: sounds like systems programming vs. application programming
13:35	technomancy	TimMc: http://www.slideshare.net/gigaom/structure-data-presentationsheehywhy-you-should-not
13:35	sandbags	toothpaste won't rip the enamel off your teeth?
13:35	dnolen	dissipate: probably not a bad way to think about it.
13:35	hlship	dnolen: Where/when is a good time/place for discussion of Om?
13:35	hlship	Have some Q's and ideas
13:36	dnolen	hlship: probably best in #clojurescript
13:36	dissipate	dnolen: i have actually been thinking about this a lot lately. Hickey actually had a talk about systems programming where he outlined the problem of different systems having their own state and having to coordinate between them. seems rather unsolved to me.
13:37	dnolen	dissipate: I think core.async is his and others take on this problem.
13:38	dissipate	dnolen: but how do you use that if you have a Twitter feed, a Facebook timeline and a dozen other external systems with their own state?
13:38	TimMc	sandbags: Not with that attitude.
13:38	dnolen	dissipate: CSP is a coordination language
13:39	sandbags	TimMc: I guess it does depend how rigorously you apply the gears
13:41	dissipate	dnolen: hmm. suppose you feed all the data from each system into a Datomic database and then query as needed.
13:41	ro_st	dnolen: do any of the lifecycle methods fire after rendering?
13:42	dnolen	ro_st: IDidUpdate, IDidMount I think
13:43	ro_st	thank you
13:43	ro_st	iDidUpdate sound like a suitable place to call out to YouTube api after writing a video to the page?
13:43	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:47	dnolen	ro_st: IDidMount is probably better, happens once
13:48	dissipate	dnolen: have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROor6_NGIWU (The language of the system)
13:48	dnolen	dissipate: yep
13:48	ro_st	i need it to happen every time i alter the video src url. looks like mount for the first time, and update for subsequent times
13:48	dnolen	dissipate: that's pre core.async though
13:49	dissipate	dnolen: how does core.async solve the problem?
13:49	dnolen	dissipate: which solves some of those problems in the small, in the large different story.
13:49	dnolen	dissipate: you have similar problems at different levels of scale
13:49	dissipate	dnolen: what's the ultimate solution?
13:49	dnolen	dissipate: everyone using Erlang?
13:50	bbloom	dnolen: gah no. erlang doesn't solve most of the problems discussed in language of the system lol
13:50	dnolen	bbloom: heh I wouldn't go so far as to say most
13:50	bbloom	dnolen: it punts by requiring homogeneous system components, which is a totally valid approach inside a single org
13:50	dissipate	dnolen: don't see how that helps. Twitter could be written in Erlang, it's still going to have its own state.
13:51	dnolen	dissipate: I don't really see a solution, beyond use a language and abstractions that can deal w/ heterogeneity.
13:54	dissipate	dnolen: if all of your systems generate a constant feed, one solution is to have them all write to a Datomic database, which produces a consistent database value at any point in time. correct?
13:54	tbaldridge	dissipate: or use something like kafka which is like Datomic-as-a-conveyor-belt.
13:55	ivan	luxbock: "The return value should always be checked to make sure that the rename operation was successful." http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/File.html
13:55	ivan	luxbock: if some library doesn't do this, it's broken
13:56	dissipate	tbaldridge: i see. thanks.
13:56	ivan	luxbock: the destination directory might not exist, you might be lacking permission, Windows might have a lock on it, etc
13:56	tbaldridge	dissipate: that's hwo LinkedIn does it for example.
13:56	dissipate	tbaldridge: they use Kafka?
13:57	dissipate	tbaldridge: have you heard of Raft? http://highscalability.com/blog/2013/8/7/raft-in-search-of-an-understandable-consensus-algorithm.html
13:58	klrr_	hello
13:58	egosum	Good afternoon all
13:58	egosum	Liberator seems pretty great to me. I can't find anything too bad about using it…anyone know any gotchas or reasons to be wary of using it?
13:58	tbaldridge	dissipate: just recently, yes
13:58	dissipate	wow, didn't know they created Cogniect. interesting.
13:58	dissipate	Cognitect
13:59	dissipate	tbaldridge: do you think it is worth it to create a Docker image for a basic Datomic installation?
13:59	tbaldridge	who created Cognitect?
14:00	ro_st	dissipate: Cognitect created Datomic. Cognitect is a company
14:00	andyf	ThinkRelevance and Rich Hickey created Cognitect
14:01	dissipate	ro_st: it seems they created the company after Datomic came out. no?
14:01	dissipate	andyf: do they have Clojure jobs?
14:01	ro_st	if they don't, no one does :-)
14:01	bbloom	ro_st: they were called Metadata Partner's at some point :-)
14:01	andyf	dissipate: Check their web site. maybe.
14:01	bbloom	er no apostrophe
14:01	stuartsierra	Full explanation of the Cognitect / Relevance / Datomic thing in this podcast http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/09/16/cognitect-podcast-episode-040
14:02	ro_st	bbloom: yup
14:02	TimMc	ro_st: I think dissipate means "openings".
14:02	tbaldridge	dissipate: we're almost always looking for contractors : http://www.cognitect.com/jobs
14:02	dissipate	andyf: didn't see jobs on cognitect's site. but relevance does have a jobs page.
14:02	ro_st	what tbaldridge said
14:03	andyf	stuartsierra: You would not be surprised to learn that deftest's in a namespace can be executed in pretty much arbitrary order relative to each other?
14:03	stuartsierra	andyf: yes that is expected
14:03	dissipate	tbaldridge: ah, i didn't see that sidebar. cool, thanks.
14:03	dissipate	tbaldridge: remote contractors as well?
14:03	andyf	stuartsierra: So if some tests in Clojure happen to pass because of the order they are executed, it would be better to change them not to depend on the order they are currently executed?
14:04	egosum	Any opinions on Liberator? Seeking opinions
14:04	bitemyapp	andyf: god yes.
14:04	tbaldridge	dissipate: yeah, we have people in almost every US timezone
14:04	bitemyapp	andyf: tests that require a particular order to pass are a failure.
14:04	dissipate	tbaldridge: why does Relevance still have its own site?
14:05	andyf	bitemyapp: Doesn't mean that it is easy to determine that they depend upon the order. Just found some by accident today.
14:05	seangrove	andyf: That's always a bad idea
14:05	tbaldridge	dissipate: because changing an existing client's contract is super hard? :-P
14:05	technomancy	I wonder how hard it would be to implement order randomization as a test fixtures
14:05	technomancy	too many As there
14:05	bitemyapp	technomancy: that would be eggscellent.
14:05	technomancy	it would probably be pretty cringe-worthy of an implementation
14:05	bitemyapp	it should be non-optional.
14:06	andyf	technomancy: Not hard, I think, if you are willing to write your own slightly-modified version of test-all-vars in clojure.test
14:06	bitemyapp	symbol shufflin' err'day I'm shufflin'
14:06	technomancy	andyf: I think it would be technically possible without modifying clojure.test, but ... cringe-worthy =)
14:07	dissipate	tbaldridge: unfortunately, i am currently not versed in your technology stack. but it's good to know there are opportunities for Clojure developers to work remote!
14:07	technomancy	you just need a function that does nothing the first (dec n) times it's called and then shuffles everything on the nth call
14:09	dissipate	technomancy: how robust is the shuffler? if the PRNG doesn't produce at least n! permutations, you are hosed.
14:10	andyf	technomancy: However you do it, it would be good to have a way to repeat a previously failing order so that one could verify whether they have fixed their tests.
14:10	technomancy	andyf: definitely
14:12	TimMc	Print the PRNG seed.
14:12	dissipate	how robust is the built in 'shuffle' function in Clojure?
14:12	dissipate	if it is as bad as Python's 'shuffle', that's not good
14:12	andyf	I think it was updated to be a Fisher-Yates shuffle in a recent Clojure release, but check the source.
14:13	bitemyapp	TimMc: for the love of god yes.
14:13	ivan	(source shuffle) says it calls java.util.Collections/shuffle
14:13	mdrogalis	dissipate: What's up with Python's shuffle?
14:13	dissipate	andyf: Fisher-Yates is fine, it's the PRNG used to generate the permutation.
14:14	dissipate	andyf: if the PRNG wraps around before n! not all permutations will be generated. not good if you are shuffling a deck of cards.
14:14	dissipate	mdrogalis: it does not produce all possible permutations of a list for any large 'n'
14:14	technomancy	dissipate: that hardly qualifies as "hosed"
14:14	bitemyapp	OpenJDK shuffle is basically fisher-yates. I have no idea re: Oracle
14:15	andyf	dissipate: So you are recommending a PRNG with enough bits of internal state to enable it to have a period like 2^1024 or something?
14:15	technomancy	you don't have to test anything remotely close to every single permutation to find problems with order-dependent tests
14:15	dissipate	Note that for even rather small len(x), the total number of permutations of x is larger than the period of most random number generators; this implies that most permutations of a long sequence can never be generated.
14:15	dissipate	http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
14:15	stuartsierra	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Collections.html#shuffle(java.util.List)
14:15	dissipate	andyf: more than that, a period greater than n!
14:16	ivan	that's not as bad as it sounds unless you can predict which shuffled sequences the PRNG will never generate
14:16	bitemyapp	gf3: <3
14:16	TimMc	dissipate: You want to boil the ocean to find out if there's an order-dependency?
14:17	technomancy	what the hell happened to java.jdbc
14:17	bitemyapp	gf3: thanks for bringing that to my attention, it led to the discovery of gems like: "mattpodwysocki: LOL! Man tries Haskell, realizes he’s not smart enough and gives up to pursue simple things like distributed systems. http://t.co/pdG35zz3E4"
14:17	dissipate	TimMc: well, for that use case it's fine. what if i want to use 'shuffle' for an online casino?
14:17	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's an open source simulation of a flailing startup
14:17	TimMc	OK, different use-case.
14:17	bitemyapp	technomancy: `fix pivot`
14:17	bitemyapp	technomancy: problem is, pivoting is divergent and does not have a convergent fixed point :(
14:18	dissipate	ivan: it's pretty bad. imagine i want to write the back-end for an online casino. it's not good if i have to worry about 'shuffle' leaving out a massive number of permutations of a deck of cards.
14:18	ivan	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3062741/maximal-length-of-list-to-shuffle-with-python-random-shuffle
14:19	ivan	I guess you want a better RNG anyway if you have a casino
14:20	bitemyapp	ivan: you mean /dev/urandom?
14:22	andyf	TIcket and patch for the particular issue I found in Clojure's tests: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1328 Doesn't address the randomization of order that technomancy suggests for finding other such cases that may exist.
14:23	dissipate	ivan: you probably want it for a lot of situations, including scientific simulations. i just don't understand why a robust 'shuffle' is not built directly into these languages. i shouldn't even have to worry about it.
14:23	stuartsierra	andyf: thank you
14:24	technomancy	dissipate: more randomness requires more entropy, which is in short supply in many virtualized environments. defaulting to a basic shuffle which doesn't consume much entropy makes a lot of sense.
14:24	stuartsierra	Good randomness is expensive.
14:26	dissipate	technomancy: you are right, that is the ultimate source of the problem, lack of available entropy at the hardware and OS level, especially in a VM. is anyone even working on fixing that?
14:26	ivan	Intel has an RNG instruction now
14:27	dissipate	ivan: NSA approved? :D
14:27	cark	dissipate: nsa mandated
14:27	ivan	yes, how else would NSA analysts win all their online poker tables
14:35	bitemyapp	Morgawr: some people don't understand that games are subject to prototyping too.
14:47	edbond	dnolen, is it overkill to apply core.logic to solve euler224? https://projecteuler.net/problem=224
14:47	noonian	is there something like keywordize-keys from clojure.walk in cljs?
14:49	ToBeReplaced	noonian: do you need the walk behavior?
14:50	noonian	no, just replace string keys with keywords
14:50	holo	hi
14:51	ToBeReplaced	,(reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (assoc m (keyword k) v)) {} {"foo" "bar"})
14:51	clojurebot	{:foo "bar"}
14:51	holo	is there a way to specify namespaces with wildcards to AOT compile? like :aot [app.*] (this does not work of course) . :all doesn't apply to my case
14:52	noonian	,(doc reduce-kv)
14:52	clojurebot	"([f init coll]); Reduces an associative collection. f should be a function of 3 arguments. Returns the result of applying f to init, the first key and the first value in coll, then applying f to that result and the 2nd key and value, etc. If coll contains no entries, returns init and f is not called. Note that reduce-kv is supported on vectors, where the keys will be the ordinals."
14:52	`cbp	(zipmap (map keyword (keys map)) (vals map))
14:52	noonian	thanks guys, so i guess there isn't anything built in
14:52	technomancy	holo: I think you can use regexes
14:53	dnolen	edbond: hmm, can't say but it would be fun to try.
14:53	ToBeReplaced	edbond: looks like a great use case for core.logic
14:53	holo	technomancy, hey how are you? ok, i'll try. thanks
14:53	edbond	ha-ha, there are too much variants
14:53	holo	(inc technomancy)
14:53	lazybot	⇒ 92
14:53	edbond	I would probably start with fd
14:57	ToBeReplaced	`cbp: i don't like that solution because i believe the consistency of ordering of (keys m) and (vals m) is an implementation detail, not part of the contract (am i wrong?)
14:59	Morgawr	bitemyapp: some people can't understand the fun in prototyping and experimenting :P
14:59	`cbp	ToBeReplaced: seq, keys and vals walk maps in the same order
15:00	kschrader	is Immutant the way to go when deploying a Clojure webapp?
15:01	kschrader	or do people do some sort of Jetty/Nginx dance?
15:02	ToBeReplaced	`cbp: they do, but is that a promise of the language? that's all i was getting at
15:03	holo	kschrader, i did a jetty dance when deploying with uberjar. now i'm trying to uberwar
15:05	`cbp	ToBeReplaced: It doesn't seem to be documented anywhere but I wouldn't worry too much about it
15:09	nDuff	ToBeReplaced: Hmm. It'd be interesting to submit a doc patch upstream to make that explicitly contractual.
15:09	nDuff	ToBeReplaced: ...as I understand it to be something that's presently followed without fail within the core library.
15:12	jcrossley3	kschrader: if you only need web bits, immutant is overkill. it starts to make sense when you have multiple apps and some of them require messaging, jobs, or caching.
15:17	kschrader	jcrossley3: does it make deployment fairly brainless though?
15:18	kschrader	I'm going to need jobs soon, so that probably makes my decision fairly easy
15:19	jcrossley3	kschrader: you're going to need some sort of init script and everything that goes along with that, either for immutant or your jetty-embedded app. so you need that much brain anyway. :)
15:23	jcrossley3	kschrader: hosting is another factor. it's simpler to get a jetty-embedded app on say, heroku, than immutant. really depends on what you need and who's gonna support it.
15:23	kschrader	jcrossley3: yeah, that's not hard, I'm wondering about what it takes to continuously deploy changes
15:24	kschrader	I'm going to start on Digital Ocean and eventually probably move to Amazon
15:24	kschrader	and use Ansible for ops
15:24	jcrossley3	kschrader: it's essentially just a matter of rsync/scp'ing an archive.
15:25	kschrader	jcrossley3: got it, that's what I was hoping for
15:25	jcrossley3	kschrader: feel free to pester us in #immutant if you run into anything weird or confusing. we'll try to help. :)
15:41	AeroNotix	grr, trying to write a macro to generate functions. Can't seem to get this quote/unquote business right
15:43	egosum	AeroNotix: you can do it!
15:43	bitemyapp	kristof: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7810909/docs/applicative-errors-scala/applicative-errors-scala/html/index.html
15:43	AeroNotix	egosum: indeed, f it
15:47	kristof	bitemyapp: disjoin union = sum type
15:48	kristof	bitemyapp: I thought monads were sufficient to model errors
15:48	kristof	bitemyapp: Anyway, reading :P
15:49	grzm	anyone know of an issue requiring cljs.nodejs and "ReferenceError: Can't find variable: require" when using clojurescript.test ?
15:49	bitemyapp	kristof: Responses indexed by your messages: 1. http://i.imgur.com/uakbfh6.gif 2. http://i.imgur.com/SxprH.gif 3. http://i.imgur.com/W6sM7Ku.gif
15:50	grzm	I don't even need to use node/require in the app: just (:require [cljs.node :as node]) in the namespace
15:53	bitemyapp	kristof: Haskellers generally operate on the least-power principle. Monads are overkill for some forms of error handling.
15:53	bitemyapp	kristof: the idea is to learn how to grow up and down in abstractions.
15:54	bitemyapp	and get the "right-sized" approach to your problems.
15:55	kristof	bitemyapp: I'm a little confused by the type signature of an applicative functor.
15:56	kristof	Oh! I understand it now
15:56	bitemyapp	kristof: ^a ^k
15:57	kristof	It just means "take a context of things, and a context of functions which operate on those things, and return the new context of things
15:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: so it turns out that RethinkDB is entirely the wrong datastore for what I'm trying to achieve :/
15:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: confess your sins. I am interested.
15:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: I asked over in #rethinkdb, explained my datastore architecture and hardware limitations and the answer was "yeah we're an in-memory db, sorry".
15:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: this is what I get for trying to host everything off my old High School laptop :P
15:59	bitemyapp	arrdem: so is Datomic, lol.
15:59	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah. the answer is that I either do some contracting work and get a real server or I just use an SQL I suspect.
15:59	bitemyapp	arrdem: PostgreSQL is the practical choice here.
16:00	arrdem	in either case cloutjure is off the table for another week or two because I need to get back to school work..
16:00	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah that's basically where I was leaning.
16:01	arrdem	bitemyapp: the intended architecture is that the DB is really just a linear buffer of all timestamped messages and that I do analysis with sequential scans...
16:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: I look forward to hearing how fast it is with PostgreSQL.
16:10	kristof	bitemyapp: cool presentation :)
16:11	bitemyapp	kristof: Tony Morris is a good person to keep an eye on.
16:11	bitemyapp	grumpy, but very good.
16:13	kristof	bitemyapp: but error handling in Haskell seems to be done with monads, I.e. Control.Monad.Error
16:13	marcopolo`	is there a way to search lein templates?
16:14	bitemyapp	kristof: uh, that's one way.
16:14	technomancy	marcopolo`: https://clojars.org/search?q=lein-template
16:14	bitemyapp	kristof: there's actually a lot of ways, some being as simple as Either.
16:14	technomancy	hm; that's not right
16:14	bitemyapp	Applicatives are basically just a way to "combine" Either values.
16:15	bitemyapp	and have intelligent error handling.
16:15	technomancy	marcopolo`: https://clojars.org/search?q=artifact-id:lein-template
16:15	marcopolo`	technomancy: great, thanks! I didn't know about that feature
16:15	bitemyapp	kristof: the applicatives themselves, because they lend themselves to a tree/dependency-graph representation of your inputs, mean you get a declarative and safe way to handle reducing down to final answers while comprehensively handling errors.
16:16	bitemyapp	kristof: but the bonus is: you don't need monads if you'd like to model your errors that way.
16:16	kristof	bitemyapp: So you can just use regular error and data
16:16	technomancy	no problem
16:16	kristof	bitemyapp: and that way, if you want to use that data somewhere else, it doesn't have to know about monads
16:17	bitemyapp	kristof: hum, even the use of monads doesn't preclude taking data out of the monadic context
16:17	kristof	well, you have to bind it
16:17	bitemyapp	kristof: it's just that you'd have a sum-type to express the non-deterministic possibilies, then case them out to extract the "everything worked" and "at least one thing failed" cases.
16:17	kristof	ok, that makes sense
16:17	bitemyapp	kristof: not necessarily. it depends on what the monad is implemented against.
16:18	bitemyapp	kristof: Maybe is an example here.
16:18	bitemyapp	it's just a sum type. So is Either.
16:18	kristof	ok.
16:18	bitemyapp	Either can be used to express left StringError right OkayValue
16:18	bitemyapp	after monadically sequencing operations, you can split the sum type and rip it out if you want.
16:18	kristof	with a case
16:18	bitemyapp	yeah.
16:19	bitemyapp	fromJust makes some people kinda angry though :)
16:19	bitemyapp	because if you use it without a pattern match / case, it'll create an exception.
16:19	bitemyapp	error, technically.
16:19	bitemyapp	I should be more specific, sorry. not "exception", error.
16:19	kristof	Ok, this makes sense
16:20	kristof	Is there a categorical dual to applicatives? Reversing the arrows in the type signature makes it look like... just another applicative.
16:21	bitemyapp	kristof: (f a -> f b) -> f (a -> b)
16:21	bitemyapp	f a -> a
16:22	bitemyapp	kristof: if you imagine what catamorphic folding a tree looks like vs. an anamorphic unfold, this could have a similar mental picture.
16:22	bitemyapp	kristof: but that's really just one way to construct a dual of an applicative, you could also make a contravariant.
16:23	bitemyapp	kristof: the problem with broadly asking, "what's the dual of this?" is you have to know which aspect of the thing you're trying to find the "co" of.
16:23	kristof	bitemyapp: I was talking about <*> :: f a -> (f a -> f b) -> f b
16:23	bitemyapp	kristof: do you want the dual of the covariance? of the monoid'ishness?
16:23	kristof	bitemyapp: I'm not sure. :)
16:23	bitemyapp	see?
16:23	bitemyapp	it's a good question.
16:23	kristof	It is.
16:23	bitemyapp	it's just not yet well-formed because you don't know what you want.
16:24	bitemyapp	if you were solving a more specific problem with Applicatives, and you wanted to do something, the answer would be easier to attain and more useful to boot.
16:24	kristof	Ah, that's true. I guess I was looking for a general pattern, but this question is too general to begin with.
16:24	mmitchell	I'm working with a java lib, that when printed, clojure calls "key" on something it thinks is a map-entry. I get an exception: "java.lang.ClassCastException: org.apache.solr.common.SolrInputField cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry at clojure.core$key.invoke (core.clj:1482)" -- is there a way to add "key" support to the SolrInputField?
16:25	mmitchell	btw... if I don't print the result, the code works just fine
16:25	bitemyapp	kristof: it's important to remember that theorems in the category of Hask are universally more specific than those involving category theory in general. the implication is that you're going to need to also have a more specific noun or verb informing your inquiry.
16:25	kristof	bitemyapp: Oh, I was reading about free monads because of our discussion with bloom the other night and I'm slightly confused about how join is supposed to behave on a free monad.
16:25	bitemyapp	kristof: that having been said, the intuitions and patterns from category theory are still interesting.
16:26	dobry-den	How come (spit (str (io/resource "cache") "/42.html") "Hello") doesn't work from inside an uberjar?
16:27	llasram	Um. Because you'd be asking it to write to something inside of your JAR?
16:27	bitemyapp	kristof: I'm going to answer this by providing what I think is a good introduction: https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/dolio/many-roads-to-free-monads but I can tell you how I've seen them used colloquially in Haskell.
16:27	technomancy	dobry-den: how exactly would you expect that to work?
16:27	bitemyapp	kristof: especially by Tekmo.
16:28	kristof	bitemyapp: That was the article that I was reading. It's a bit long so I've been having trouble getting through all of it but I'll grok it all eventually.
16:28	bitemyapp	kristof: let me find one lower on the ladder of abstraction then.
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: no reason to suffer.
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: First read the description: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: the description matches how I've seen them used.
16:29	dobry-den	technomancy: when run from `lein ring server`, it creates resources/cache/42.html. from within an uberjar, i get a nondescript 500 error.
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: pause to reflect on what macros in Lisp are like.
16:29	dobry-den	llasram: oh, so it actually shouldn't work
16:29	technomancy	dobry-den: how would you expect it to work in an uberjar?
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: what are you doing? you're manipulating a tree-like structure before it has taken on a specific meaning.
16:30	llasram	dobry-den: Yes :-)
16:30	dobry-den	technomancy: yeah, i see. an uberjar is a zip file. of course
16:30	holo	dobry-den, spitting outside uberjar works though. it seems it's read-only fs
16:30	bitemyapp	kristof: the final, transformed tree-value then gets handed off to some sort of interpreter/compiler.
16:30	bitemyapp	kristof: this is an example (one among many) of how Haskellers do EDSLs and macro'ish things without template haskell.
16:31	dobry-den	Is it good enough to just (spit "/users/absolute/path/42.html" "Hello") from within an uberjar, then?
16:31	kristof	bitemyapp: So what's the underlying natural transformation that macros are equivalent to?
16:31	holo	anyone knows some dirty trick to refer assets that are outside the uberjar?
16:31	kristof	bitemyapp: If ASTs are our free monad.
16:32	AeroNotix	Can I expand a macro even if it would raise an exception?
16:32	bitemyapp	kristof: applicatives are kinda like lists, and you can encode trees within nested lists.
16:32	kristof	AeroNotix: Wouldn't you just get the exception?
16:32	holo	dobry-den, i can do it here
16:32	bitemyapp	kristof: so S-exprs are kinda like applicatives in that respect, but the "feeling" of it is closer to free monads.
16:33	kristof	bitemyapp: Gotcha. Interesting to think about, though; what kind of magnificent meta programming can you do when you're able to describe code more descriptively than "lists"?
16:33	bitemyapp	kristof: what's it equivalent to? runFree or runFreeT I'd imagine.
16:33	technomancy	dobry-den: doesn't really have anything to do with an uberjar
16:34	bitemyapp	kristof: well the thing that'll really smash the proverbial brain-egg against the idea-skillet is when you realize you can use ANY types, denotation, semantics, or values you want.
16:34	bitemyapp	and it'll all be type-safe to boot, insanely enough.
16:35	bitemyapp	unless your interpreter is evil.
16:35	arkh	in core.async, is there a way to count the number of items available to be taken from, say, (chan 10) ?
16:35	kristof	bitemyapp: http://tratt.net/laurie/research/pubs/papers/berger_tratt__program_logics_for_homogeneous_meta_programming.pdf
16:36	kristof	Laurence has a lot of papers on PyPy and JIT compiler generation, so I was surprised that he had delved into this topic
16:36	kristof	The PyPy project is, in itself, a lot of metaprogramming though and he's complained about python being a poor metaprogramming language so I guess it isn't too surprising
16:37	bitemyapp	kristof: I guess the only caveat to using free monads as a DSL is that they're a runtime mechanism so unless you do a codensity transformation for performance you might produce slower code than something more naturally flat in nature.
16:37	kristof	bitemyapp: that is true
16:38	bitemyapp	kristof: nothing really stops you shoving it to compile-time though.
16:38	bitemyapp	kristof: it's just that people like having the power at runtime.
16:38	kristof	bitemyapp: Anyway, it's a good idea for any language to have the entire language available for compile-time programming
16:38	tbaldridge	arkh: no, because that would introduce a race condition, that number could change the moment after you read it.
16:39	bitemyapp	kristof: interesting paper, but other than the lifting of functions it seemed mostly like a typed Lisp macro derivative.
16:39	arkh	tbaldridge: ok - thank you
16:39	bitemyapp	kristof: right, I agree, and that's why TH is a thing.
16:39	bitemyapp	I just think for most purposes laziness and EDSLs go further.
16:39	tbaldridge	kristof: I agree, meta programming should be required in almost every language.
16:40	tbaldridge	kristof: and then there's this: http://h3.gd/ctrace/
16:40	kristof	bitemyapp: But Template Haskell is one of the ugliest things to read
16:40	tbaldridge	"ctrace is a compile-time raytracer written in the D Programming Language." - one of the best things I've read
16:40	bitemyapp	kristof: it's a bit ghetto because of how rarely people rely on it.
16:40	bitemyapp	kristof: considering how much sorcery people like Tekmo engage in, that should say something.
16:41	AeroNotix	some help? https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/f218770087e322a1c78c I want to generate functions which otherwise I'd have to write out manually
16:41	bitemyapp	I don't think there's anything wrong with a compile-time access to the language semantics, but I'd prefer the type system be constrained to something total and decidable.
16:41	kristof	bitemyapp: Anyway, that paper was an operational semantics for meta-programming so I wouldn't just call it "just a typed lisp macro derivative" :P
16:42	bitemyapp	kristof: I stay out of that field.
16:42	bitemyapp	kristof: outside of my ken.
16:42	bitemyapp	or sub-field if you like, either way, you get my meaning.
16:42	kristof	tbaldridge: "I'm just a pervert and I love raping the D compiler." Tactless choice of words but still funny
16:43	tbaldridge	kristof: is that on that page? ick...I didn't see that. I find such language offensive...
16:43	llasram	Yeah.....
16:43	bitemyapp	kristof: given that anybody that uses D is probably in Alexandrescu's school of thought, it seems within character.
16:43	kristof	tbaldridge: I don't find it offensive as much as I'm worried it'll trigger someone.
16:44	bitemyapp	Ditto.
16:44	kristof	But maybe that's a form of being offended.
16:44	bitemyapp	I don't see it as being offended because I'm not.
16:44	bitemyapp	I'd just prefer people not unduly suffer.
16:44	kristof	^
16:44	bitemyapp	but if I let myself suffer because of what he said, then that would add to the suffering, so I'm not going to suffer because I was worried about another person's suffering.
16:45	llasram	So close, yet so far
16:45	AeroNotix	any pointers?
16:45	tbaldridge	None the less, I apologize to the room for that. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
16:45	llasram	(inc tbaldridge)
16:45	lazybot	⇒ 4
16:45	AeroNotix	(inc lazybot )
16:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:46	bitemyapp	lazybot's back? about fucking time.
16:46	bitemyapp	(inc Raynes)
16:46	lazybot	⇒ 41
16:46	bitemyapp	$karma bitemyapp
16:46	lazybot	bitemyapp has karma 15.
16:46	bitemyapp	well that has to change.
16:46	liflash	hi everybody, i'm working on my first project with clojure (a web app) and experimented a bit with server and client side coding. suddenly I get a compile exception the clojure.tools.reader/Reader-types cannot be found. It's a dependency from ring.middleware which itself is a dependency of noir, which I use. The package is definitely in my repository. Any ideas what's causing the error?
16:46	kristof	AeroNotix: I only glanced at it but are you sure using "bindings" that way without gensyms is alright?
16:46	llasram	bitemyapp: Trying to remember -- were you attempting to get the most negative karma?
16:47	dobry-den	Well imagine that. All of the performance issues of my app have been solved by running `lein ring server` in production mode (LEIN_NO_DEV=true)
16:47	Raynes	bitemyapp: I don't have any way of knowing when it goes down unless I try to use it or someone informs me.
16:47	bitemyapp	Raynes: I wasn't going to perturb your bubble.
16:47	bitemyapp	Raynes: can I get free karma for not bothering you?
16:48	AeroNotix	kristof: it puts the value of bindings in the form
16:48	Raynes	(dec bitemyapp)
16:48	lazybot	⇒ 14
16:48	Raynes	jk ily
16:48	Raynes	(inc bitemyapp)
16:48	lazybot	⇒ 15
16:48	technomancy	dobry-den: LEIN_NO_DEV is only used by lein 1.x
16:48	bitemyapp	Raynes: <3
16:48	technomancy	using `lein ring server` in production is not a good idea
16:48	bitemyapp	Raynes: I am debugging Python code. My spleen ruptured an hour ago.
16:49	technomancy	you should either use an uberjar or if you can't do that for some reason, use `lein with-profile production trampoline ring server`
16:49	bitemyapp	get the winchester, put me down. I'm done. stick a fork in it.
16:49	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: Where are you from?
16:50	dobry-den	technomancy: really? lein-ring github suggests LEIN_NO_DEV and it really did just dramatically change the performance of my app in a reproducible way.
16:50	Raynes	technomancy: I did the same thing because I would like to protest.
16:50	dobry-den	technomancy: i agree about uberjar though. honestly it's because of my dumb `spit` issue.
16:51	technomancy	dobry-den: it will make a difference if you're using lein 1.x
16:51	kristof	bitemyapp: Last question of the day before I stop bugging you: anything worth looking at in Eff?
16:51	Raynes	technomancy: I don't think you still have very good reasons for condemning lein ring, but sure, LEIN_NO_DEV is a README leftover.
16:51	Bronsa	liflash: you have a typo somewhere. the correct namespace should be clojure.tools.reader.reader-types
16:51	mmitchell	What protocol defines "key" for MapEntries?
16:51	technomancy	unless lein-ring is doing something very grep-resistant like (System/getenv (str "LEIN_" "NO_DEV")) =)
16:51	Raynes	"i don't think you still"
16:51	dobry-den	technomancy: lein 2.3.4.
16:52	Raynes	"I still don't think"
16:52	dobry-den	i'll read the source and look
16:52	bitemyapp	kristof: extensible effects you mean?
16:53	technomancy	dobry-den: I think it would be more beneficial to understand what the actual problem you're having with spit is rather than changing everything up to work around it
16:53	Raynes	technomancy: I hope it's doin' that.
16:53	kristof	bitemyapp: effects and handlers
16:53	egghead	anyone used purnam for cljs midje?
16:54	dobry-den	technomancy: right, i understand them now (duh, can't spit into a zip (uberjar)). so in the meantime i was just running with lein-ring on the server until i figured it out.
16:54	bitemyapp	kristof: oh you mean Bauer/Pretnar paper. I'm not familiar with that work, only extensible-effects in Haskell.
16:54	bitemyapp	kristof: roughly it's an alternative to monad transformers, I don't know how they compare beyond the difference in implementation.
16:54	bitemyapp	it's definitely a different way to model the problem.
16:55	bitemyapp	kristof: they both stem from algebras of monads, AFAIK.
16:55	technomancy	dobry-den: so it sounds like what you're actually doing is making your resources/ directory perform double duty as a scratch-pad as well as a resources/ dir
16:55	arrdem	bitemyapp: tempting as it may be you won't get the winchester until you either break an ankle or start pushing untyped code in here.
16:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: I could push some uni-typed Haskell if that works.
16:56	liflash	Bronsa: it came out of my head. the message should be correct, since it is loaded within ring.middleware
16:57	dobry-den	technomancy: i was using resources/cache as a place to cache markdown->html rendering. it just seemed tidy. but of course on the server i'll have to spit into another location.
16:59	liflash	Bronsa: My problem is, I don't think this error is really the problem since it worked before and checking out the same template works fine. I must have broken something somewhere else, but am not sure where to start. The stacktrace only complains about the missing resource when initializing the source files for compilation
16:59	dobry-den	after skimming lein-ring 0.8.10 (latest) on leiningen 2.3.4, i can't figure out why LEIN_NO_DEV=true dramatically changed everything though. and there's no way it's a fluke.
16:59	Bronsa	liflash: without the actual error it's hard to tell
17:00	kristof	bitemyapp: One of the claims in the paper is that effects are more composable (or more easily composable) than monads. Also, as far as I know, monad transformers and their relationship to monads aren't actually very well understood yet.
17:00	bitemyapp	kristof: I don't personally know how strong their argument for that is.
17:00	bitemyapp	kristof: the composability argument, that is. If you find this interesting, look at extensible-effects on Hackage for something immediately usable.
17:01	kristof	bitemyapp: will do!
17:02	kristof	bitemyapp: The thing is, though, I'm not sure extensible effects are orthogonal to monad transformers. It seems like there's an underlying abstraction that applies to both, and one or the other needs to go away. ...But I wouldn't know. As you said earlier, "Why not both?"
17:02	bitemyapp	kristof: well yeah, I wouldn't describe them as orthogonal either. I think they're parallel approaches to roughly the same problems.
17:02	bitemyapp	kristof: one might have better usability or composability than the other, but transformers were the more "obvious" answer originally I think.
17:03	bitemyapp	kristof: considering how far you can go with relatively simple combinators like Parsec, these seems like #PostSingularityProblems rather than #FirstWorldProblems
17:03	bitemyapp	these seem*
17:03	bitemyapp	but I'm sure I'll eat those words in ~5 years.
17:07	liflash	Bronsa: I just tried to 'create' the error by starting the repl and suddenly it works again..... but something else doesn't work... sorry for bothering, will have to look into it
17:07	liflash	Bronsa: thanks :)
17:12	liflash	Bronsa: ok, got 'working' again (the compiled files of a working branch were still available).... which part of the stacktrace do you need?
17:12	Bronsa	liflash: how about all of it? :)
17:13	liflash	Bronsa: hehe, ok, here it comes
17:13	liflash	Bronsa: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/tools/reader/reader_types/Reader
17:13	liflash	at clojure.tools.reader.edn__init.load(Unknown Source)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.tools.reader.edn__init.<clinit>(Unknown Source)
17:13	liflash	at java.lang.Class.forName0(Native Method)
17:13	liflash	at java.lang.Class.forName(Class.java:270)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.loadClassForName(RT.java:2098)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:430)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:411)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load$fn__5018.invoke(core.clj:5530)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load.doInvoke(core.clj:5529)
17:13	arrdem	liflash: MOTHER OF GOD USE A PASTEBIN
17:13	liflash	at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:408)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load_one.invoke(core.clj:5336)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load_lib$fn__4967.invoke(core.clj:5375)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load_lib.doInvoke(core.clj:5374)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:142)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$apply.invoke(core.clj:619)
17:13	liflash	at clojure.core$load_libs.doInvoke(core.clj:5413)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:137)
17:14	kristof	guy's first time in IRC
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$apply.invoke(core.clj:619)
17:14	kristof	someone kick him :P
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$require.doInvoke(core.clj:5496)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:421)
17:14	liflash	at ring.middleware.cookies$loading__4910__auto__.invoke(cookies.clj:1)
17:14	rasmusto	~doInvoke
17:14	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:14	arrdem	http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130417063927/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/f/f4/Picard-facepalm.jpg
17:14	liflash	at ring.middleware.cookies__init.load(Unknown Source)
17:14	liflash	at ring.middleware.cookies__init.<clinit>(Unknown Source)
17:14	liflash	at java.lang.Class.forName0(Native Method)
17:14	liflash	at java.lang.Class.forName(Class.java:270)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.loadClassForName(RT.java:2098)
17:14	arrdem	technomancy: danke
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:430)
17:14	kmicu	WHY!
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:411)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$load$fn__5018.invoke(core.clj:5530)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$load.doInvoke(core.clj:5529)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:408)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$load_one.invoke(core.clj:5336)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$load_lib$fn__4967.invoke(core.clj:5375)
17:14	liflash	at clojure.core$load_lib.doInvoke(core.clj:5374)
17:15	scgilardi	just when we got to load-lib
17:15	kristof	maybe he was testing a bot
17:15	arrdem	okay. so the votekick bot is totally gonna have a "is pasting stacktrace" module...
17:15	justin_smith	(inc arrdem)
17:15	lazybot	⇒ 13
17:15	rasmusto	or just a search for ^I
17:16	Bronsa	oh god.
17:16	bitemyapp	(inc arrdem)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 14
17:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: yeah, I endorse this.
17:16	kristof	bitemyapp: I suppose the latter, then, might disappear in the future if algebraic effects become more popular. But the point of monads were to model computation-on-the-side style effects anyway, so if that's the case, then what's the point of a monad? :)
17:17	arrdem	(inc technomancy) ;; active ops > active bots
17:17	lazybot	⇒ 93
17:17	arrdem	good lord
17:17	arrdem	this is why I don't feel bad about having lazybot karma be a parameter to the votekick score... it correlates so well with activity here!
17:17	bitemyapp	kristof: eff is still part of monads AFAIK
17:18	hyPiRion	Something has to be tone.
17:18	hyPiRion	We need to get better stacktraces, otherwise the IRC community will be destroyed and shattered.
17:19	kristof	bitemyapp: monads are more general than algebraic effects
17:19	arrdem	hyPiRion: I agree that better stack traces would be awesome, but I fail to see the link to the death of #clojure
17:19	Bronsa	maybe having clojurebot yell "IN A PASTEBIN" everytime "stacktrace" is mentioned.
17:19	hyPiRion	arrdem: sarcasm :(
17:19	kristof	bitemyapp: I think eff's point is that reducing the generality yields a structure that is more amenable to composition
17:19	liflash	ok, sorry again, but you really don't have to kick me immediatly
17:19	arrdem	hyPiRion: internet, intent and microexpressions :/
17:20	Bronsa	liflash: anyway, are you by any chance using cljsbuild?
17:20	liflash	it's really my first time on irc
17:20	AeroNotix	liflash: we really did, now you know
17:20	liflash	Bronsa: yes
17:20	rasmusto	liflash: refheap for pasting :>
17:20	technomancy	liflash: your client was streaming the lines out at a trickle
17:20	bitemyapp	kristof: yeah I could see that. Also see: http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/effects.pdf
17:20	technomancy	so it was interrupting ongoing conversations
17:20	bitemyapp	kristof: this is probably partly responsible for the surge of interest in Idris.
17:20	technomancy	otherwise I wouldn't have kicked
17:20	AeroNotix	liflash: also, get a better client. The good ones say "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO BE AN IDIOT" before doing stuff like that
17:21	liflash	AeroNotix: I use ERC ;)
17:21	arrdem	liflash: weird... it should have warned you...
17:21	technomancy	liflash: hang on; there is a thing you can do
17:21	AeroNotix	liflash: like I said, get a better client.
17:21	kristof	bitemyapp: Huh? I thought Idris's claim to fame was dependent types
17:21	AeroNotix	Weechat, Irssi etc
17:21	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: lol, you're about to get driven out of town.
17:21	technomancy	(setq erc-flood-protect nil)
17:21	kristof	bitemyapp: But yeah, this paper seems more relevant to this discussion than the Eff paper
17:21	arrdem	AeroNotix: dude. bashing ERC in here? good luck...
17:21	bitemyapp	kristof: yeah but it's one of the algebraic effects petri dishes.
17:21	arrdem	liflash: see technomancy's last
17:22	AeroNotix	arrdem: Compared to weechat+znc? Puh-lease
17:22	kristof	bitemyapp: cool stuff :)
17:22	arrdem	AeroNotix: I run ERC+IRSSI. come at me brah
17:22	bitemyapp	kristof: you're right that dependent types is the raison d'etre, but Agda already had that.
17:22	technomancy	liflash: will disable the trickle behaviour so at least it'll all come out in one fell swoop and freenode's own protections will kick in
17:22	bitemyapp	kristof: Idris is more designed for programming than Agda or Coq.
17:22	liflash	technomancy: thx
17:23	liflash	technomancy: but shouldn't I set the flood-protect to t?
17:23	technomancy	also I think there's a setting to warn you right when you press enter in 24.4, but that hasn't been released yet
17:23	technomancy	liflash: in this case flood-protect means "trickle the lines out slowly so that it won't trigger freenode's anti-flood mechanism" which is unambiguously bad
17:23	justin_smith	liflash: flood-protect makes the output come out slow, so you don't get auto-booted for spammy output
17:23	AeroNotix	technomancy: surely it's got a lot of hooks that you could write this yourself?
17:24	AeroNotix	technomancy: (add-to-list 'erc-pre-send-hooks .... )
17:24	ivan	I like flood protection because I don't flood by accident
17:24	AeroNotix	or w/e
17:24	justin_smith	liflash: so it is more like "flood-enable" since it bypasses the automatic protection
17:24	xuser	so thinking of jumping to emacs with evil, what packages do I need for a basic clojure enviroment besides cider?
17:24	technomancy	AeroNotix: yes, it's included now in 24.4
17:24	AeroNotix	cool
17:24	technomancy	but not many are running 24.4 yet
17:24	kristof	bitemyapp: Well, Idris is Turing Complete. :)
17:24	arrdem	yay now UTCS will be 16 emacs releases behind....
17:24	technomancy	the new setting is erc-accidental-paste-threshold-seconds
17:24	AeroNotix	huh, 24.3 here, Archlinux too. Damn thing.
17:24	technomancy	if you're on an emacs build new enough to have that, even better
17:24	kristof	bitemyapp: I'm going to put down this Eff paper, all the examples are unwieldy and no matter how cool the underlying theory is, no one would ever want to program this way.
17:25	hyPiRion	is 24.4 out already? I thought snapshot was 24.3.50.1, at least a week ago when I built it
17:25	Bronsa	liflash: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/23
17:25	technomancy	hyPiRion: I think it's in feature freeze
17:25	arrdem	technomancy: that sounds right... there was a post yesterday about the comming new features.
17:26	hyPiRion	technomancy: ah
17:26	hyPiRion	hrm.
17:26	liflash	Bronsa: thanks, looking into it....
17:28	kristof	bitemyapp: You should send some of Tekmo's more interesting experiments my way
17:28	kristof	If it's not too much trouble.
17:29	bitemyapp	kristof: (touching on effects): http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/44/58/73/PDF/dualV1.pdf
17:29	bitemyapp	(and duals)
17:30	socksy	I feel like I do in #idris, and I haven't got a clue what's going on in anything anyone's talking about
17:30	liflash	Bronsa: do you know that issue from your own experience? austin is already in my dev profile...
17:31	bitemyapp	kristof: tekmo: http://www.haskellforall.com/2012/06/you-could-have-invented-free-monads.html
17:31	bitemyapp	kristof: but also: http://ttic.uchicago.edu/~dreyer/course/papers/wadler.pdf
17:31	bitemyapp	kristof: intuition for free monads is closely tied to understanding free theorems.
17:31	bitemyapp	tekmo mentions this in his article about fusion and pipes.
17:32	Bronsa	liflash: no, I only heard about that since I'm the tools.reader author.
17:33	liflash	Bronsa: ;) ok
17:34	bitemyapp	kristof: one of my dream projects is making a "mapper" for community contributed of dependency trees for white papers
17:35	bitemyapp	kristof: so that if you were looking at a blog post or paper for "free monads" you'd see upvotes for "theorems for free"
17:51	dsrx	Monads for nothin' and type checks for free
17:51	liflash	Bronsa: I had to move the aot to the production profile too, if anyone is asking again ;)
17:51	liflash	Bronsa: thanks a lot!
17:51	dsrx	s/ and/;/
17:58	bitemyapp	(inc dsrx)
17:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:58	bitemyapp	socksy: I kinda brought #haskell and #idris here.
17:58	benkay	I'd like to use with-redefs in a midje with-state-changes (before :facts) block instead of wrapping my facts in it, but I think that I'm going about this incorrectly. Thoughts?
18:00	socksy	bitemyapp: you might enjoy #idris. It's active, but not as busy as #haskell
18:00	benkay	(my goal is to replace my datomic db uri with the in-memory test db for integration tests)
18:00	bitemyapp	socksy: just joined because you reminded me it existed.
18:00	socksy	:D
18:01	bitemyapp	benkay: you're making at least two, possibly three mistakes.
18:01	bitemyapp	benkay: 1. using midje 2. wanting to use with-redefs
18:01	benkay	save me from myself oh sage
18:01	benkay	what's wrong with midje?
18:01	bitemyapp	benkay: proper configuration.
18:01	arrdem	benkay: loooooolz
18:02	arrdem	clojurebot: forget bitemyapp \|is\| it ammuses me to mock other people gods
18:02	bitemyapp	benkay: https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus/blob/master/src/berossus/rocks/your/data/config.clj
18:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: you misspelled it and don't do that.
18:02	arrdem	damnit.
18:02	rasmusto	arrdem: dammnit*
18:02	bitemyapp	benkay: ignore the larger scope of "services" for now, focus on how environ and the config namespace are being used.
18:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: hey. "save me from myself oh sage" is pretty good too.
18:02	bitemyapp	benkay: https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus/blob/master/test/berossus/api_test.clj
18:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: a noun can have multiple facts.
18:03	bitemyapp	half the reason I wanted to open source berossus was so I could use it as example code.
18:03	dnolen	Om tutorial in progress here - http://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Tutorial, will be adding more to it over the coming weeks but probably enough already to have quite a bit of fun and explore.
18:04	dsrx	egghead: i thought about it a little and it might be cool to re-implement a karma-like (the test runner) thing in clojure using austin
18:04	tbaldridge	Bronsa: do you know if anyone is working on SSA passes for tools.analyzer? If not I'm going to be starting on that this week. No reason to keep this stuff specific to core.async
18:04	locks	dnolen: nice :D
18:04	dsrx	dnolen: nice!
18:04	benkay	thanks bitemyapp.
18:04	egghead	dsrx: that would be cool
18:04	locks	dnolen: how familiar with Reactjs does one need to be?
18:05	dsrx	egghead: better lein integration, you could drop into a repl when tests fail, no node.js dependency
18:05	rasmusto	dnolen: cool beans
18:05	bitemyapp	locks: I can't see it hurting.
18:05	egghead	dsrx: just ran my first travis CI build with karma + firefox testing my cljs :)
18:05	dsrx	neato
18:05	dsrx	same project you were working on before?
18:05	dnolen	locks: by the time the tutorial is done hopefully not at all
18:05	egghead	ya dsrx
18:05	egghead	it is now fully CI-ified
18:06	egghead	except my project.clj is almost 100 lines long :)
18:06	dnolen	locks: though it's still worth understanding React as it's the underpinning.
18:06	hyPiRion	egghead: at least it's not a POM =)
18:07	locks	dnolen: sure, kinda like understanding the JVM for clojure
18:16	liflash	bitemyapp: you said it's a mistake using midje. what's wrong with it?
18:16	Bronsa	tbaldridge: not that I know of.
18:17	bitemyapp	liflash: I'm done nailing the 95 theses to the doors on that one.
18:17	tbaldridge	Bronsa: kk, just wanted to make sure I'm not duplicating work.
18:20	AeroNotix	can I not alias java class names?
18:21	bitemyapp	liflash: it'd be easier to just search IRC logs and/or the mailing list.
18:21	liflash	bitemyapp: ok... just setting up my first tool chain for clojure and don't want to waste time with the wrong ones
18:22	bitemyapp	liflash: just use clojure.test
18:22	justin_smith	AeroNotix: you can kind of do it with a reader macro (see #inst)
18:22	liflash	bitemyapp: will do :)
18:22	justin_smith	,(java.util.Date.)
18:22	clojurebot	#inst "2014-01-20T23:20:03.856-00:00"
18:23	noprompt	dnolen: i ended up just going with a regular callback w/ that example i shared yesterday.
18:23	AeroNotix	justin_smith: hmm
18:23	noprompt	dnolen: the only other alternative i could come up with was to pull the channel out in to a def but i don't really like that. having a regular callback isn't that big of a deal though.
18:24	dnolen	no that om.core/root is idempotent live coding with Om ROCKS
18:24	justin_smith	AeroNotix: sadly last I checked clojurebot does not let you create them, or I would demonstrate that
18:24	dnolen	s/no/now
18:25	dnolen	noprompt: 0.2.3 has some new functionality, you can have shared data across the entire render tree
18:25	AeroNotix	justin_smith: no worries, just wouldn't mind aliasing this to a shorter name: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/397846a0955b48b86e04
18:25	AeroNotix	TransactionType
18:25	dnolen	noprompt: so you can establish channels that everyone shares (not sure if this is relevant for what you were doing)
18:25	dnolen	noprompt: and since om.core/root is idempotent not a problem for redef
18:25	noprompt	dnolen: sweet! we'll definitely update this week.
18:26	justin_smith	AeroNotix: you could likely pull something off with a tricky macro...
18:26	AeroNotix	justin_smith: meh, not worth it
18:26	justin_smith	though maybe not because I think classes are pulled in at the reader-macro level, not regular macros
18:26	noprompt	dnolen: this little app we're working on, om's been very impressive. it's really easy to move parts around, etc.
18:26	justin_smith	which means eval, which means kind of ick
18:27	noprompt	dnolen: lots of moving parts. routing, views, etc.
18:28	dnolen	noprompt: exciting :)
18:28	noprompt	dnolen: we've been using the REPL a lot w/ it too. it's been great.
18:28	dnolen	noprompt: excellent, the latest changes should make it a lot nicer too
18:28	noprompt	dnolen: i did run across something though around tests that might be worth sharing on the mailing list.
18:29	dnolen	noprompt: please do
18:29	dnolen	noprompt: at some point I'll establish an Om specific list, but we're not quite there yet
18:29	teslanick	noprompt: You should write up your experience. I want to push for a clojure/om app where I work, and having people relate their experience helps make that case.
18:29	locks	^
18:30	bitemyapp	I just realized what I'm going to have to do to this lexer
18:30	bitemyapp	and it is positively hateful.
18:30	noprompt	dnolen: it's pretty easy to figure out but it might trip up someone new. when running tests one might encounter 'TypeError: 'undefined' is not a function (evaluating 'RegExp.prototype.test.bind(/^(data\|aria)-[a-z_][a-z\d_.\-]*$/)')'
18:30	bitemyapp	actually wait a second, the wizard of regex is here.
18:30	bitemyapp	noprompt: regex lexer for arbitrary depth quoted strings that drops a single layer of quoting.
18:31	bitemyapp	I'm currently contemplating a post-match fold and would very much like to avoid it.
18:31	noprompt	dnolen: it's fairly easy, you just patch Function.prototype.bind in your extra_test_commands.js, but, like i said, it could trip someone up for a good half hour.
18:32	noprompt	bitemyapp: that sounds like a bed of roses. :)
18:32	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'm asking if the regex is possible.
18:32	bitemyapp	I guess not.
18:32	bitemyapp	noprompt: don't sweat it.
18:32	bitemyapp	noprompt: edn is a cruel bitch.
18:33	noprompt	dnolen: i'm not sure what the company's status is on a tech blog but i definitely would like to write about the experience.
18:33	bitemyapp	doubly so with bad parsers.
18:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah that's gonna be a parser problem because it's fundimentally based on counting escapes..
18:33	noprompt	bitemyapp: hmm... yeah you probably don't want a regex for that.
18:34	arrdem	counting -> CFG -/>regex
18:34	bitemyapp	noprompt: right.
18:34	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'm trying to decide whether I want the quote-level folding in the lex or parser stage.
18:35	bitemyapp	probably parser.
18:35	bitemyapp	noprompt: if it helps at all, I'm programming with boxing gloves on my hands. lex/yacc parser generator for Python code of all things.
18:35	bitemyapp	Not my technological choices.
18:36	noprompt	dnolen: i'm going to extract some short tutorials from the app we've been working on. ie. table sorting, filtering (with highlighting), pagination, etc.
18:36	noprompt	bitemyapp: LOL!
18:36	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'm about to have kittens man.
18:40	bitemyapp	the whole thing is based on mutation of the AST.
18:41	AeroNotix	ouch
18:41	dnolen	noprompt: cool, not sure I follow on the Regex thing?
18:41	dnolen	noprompt: what's the context?
18:42	bitemyapp	noprompt: whatever happens, don't let dnolen unignore me. This has been delightful.
18:42	bitemyapp	I've had wonderful conversations lately due to the non-interference.
18:43	noprompt	dnolen: so when i run tests w/ cemerick.cljs.test and phantomjs, phantom will complain loudly about that bit of code. i'm guessing it's in react.js somewhere.
18:43	dnolen	noprompt: oh huh, wacky
18:43	bitemyapp	oh, thought it was a reference to our regex convo.
18:43	bitemyapp	just as well.
18:43	noprompt	dnolen: tl;dr i guess phantomjs 1.9.3 doesn't have Function.prototype.bind
18:43	noprompt	so you gotta use a polyfill.
18:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/issues/10522
18:45	bitemyapp	Milestone: Release 2.0
18:45	iref	hi guys
18:45	bitemyapp	iref: hi girl
18:46	arrdem	iref: hello fellow AI
18:46	noprompt	bitemyapp: yeah. kind of a bummer. but easy enough to patch.
18:47	bitemyapp	noprompt: I gave up on phantomjs after the relentless onslaught of segfaults.
18:48	bitemyapp	I used it 1.6->1.9 I believe.
18:48	bitemyapp	my sanity is more valuable than the milkshakes it's offering.
18:48	bitemyapp	I have to reserve some sanity for dealing WITH THESE INFERNAL FUCKING PARSERS anyway.
18:49	noprompt	bitemyapp: you sir are the unhappiest programmer i know. lol. which is a good sign in my book.
18:50	bitemyapp	"good sign"
18:50	noprompt	bitemyapp: unhappy programmers generally have a reason. i approach happy programmers with caution.
18:50	bitemyapp	noprompt: your evaluation of good/bad appears to be scope blind to the survival rates of the authors of the libraries I use.
18:50	noprompt	haha.
18:51	noprompt	bitemyapp: a happy clojure/haskell programmer is generally a good sign; a happy javascript programmer, well, that's questionable.
18:52	dobry-den	Is the main drawback of using datomic-free that the transactor runs on the same server as the webserver peer?
18:52	bitemyapp	(inc noprompt)
18:52	lazybot	⇒ 4
18:52	bitemyapp	dobry-den: I can think of others, including a fairly huge one with the label "H2" on it.
18:53	iref	could you take a look at this gist https://gist.github.com/iref/8531602. I am trying to render content for every article with mustache and save it to file. Problem is that render-resource returns only first character instead of string so BufferedWriter crashes. And i have no idea why.
18:53	bitemyapp	you know who you should be suspicious of? People happy with H2. Those people are fucking perverts.
18:53	dobry-den	bitemyapp: what kind of issues can i expect as i'm running a quickly growing forum on top of h2?
18:53	noprompt	bitemyapp: i think last week we ditched H2. guess there were some issues w/ it.
18:53	`cbp	i use h2 in production
18:53	`cbp	mwahahahahah
18:53	noprompt	i've never used it though.
18:53	bitemyapp	`cbp: you goddamn madman
18:53	bitemyapp	noprompt: "some issues"
18:54	bitemyapp	understatement of the century.
18:54	bitemyapp	it's 2014 and you've already won.
18:55	`cbp	although the h2 part could honestly be replaced with an edn file or something
18:55	justin_smith	iref: each of the bindings in doseq is iterated over
18:55	ivan	do you have links to critical h2 bugs?
18:56	justin_smith	you probably want to bind rendered-article in a let, inside the doseq
18:56	teslanick	We use h2 to write fast integration tests against a similar-family SQL db. It seems pretty good at that.
18:56	bitemyapp	`cbp: that probably would've been better if you serialized writes.
18:56	justin_smith	iref: iterating over a string (which is what render-resource returns) gives you a sequence of chars
18:56	AeroNotix	lein cloverage just hangs when I run it
18:56	AeroNotix	it's screwing with my makefiles
18:56	bitemyapp	ivan: h2 is the King of heisenbugs.
18:56	dobry-den	i've started trying to set up datomic-starter + postgres on another server, but i'm reluctant about yet more moving parts. h2
18:57	iref	justin_smith: thanks. I didn't know that about doseq
18:57	bitemyapp	dobry-den: I use datomic-free in testing, happily.
18:57	AeroNotix	I kind of don't like cloverage (no output options) so any recommendations welcome
18:57	bitemyapp	dobry-den: It'll probably work for you, just don't use it in production.
18:57	dobry-den	bitemyapp: oh, it's a forum in production
18:57	noprompt	for the record, programming w/ a retina display is just great.
18:58	noprompt	the full glory of anti-aliased monospaced type is like icecream for the coder eyes.
18:58	dobry-den	i guess i'll underestand your aversion towards h2 as the forum expands.
18:58	bitemyapp	noprompt: that's pretty similar to how I felt about it.
18:58	bitemyapp	dobry-den: maybe? maybe it works for you anyway.
18:59	dobry-den	bitemyapp: can you mention a few issues you had with it?
19:01	bitemyapp	dobry-den: I'm pretty sure hating H2 is a club larger than the freemasons at this point.
19:01	dobry-den	and how haskell wouldve solved those issues?
19:01	bitemyapp	dobry-den: I'm not going to be the human bazooka for every issue in this IRC channel.
19:02	technomancy	iirc clojurebot uses h2
19:02	bitemyapp	strictly speaking, I don't even hate H2 or the functionality it purports to provide, it's just slippery, often annoying to work with, and has transient errors.
19:02	hiredman	nope
19:02	dobry-den	ah
19:02	hiredman	postgres
19:02	bitemyapp	lol.
19:03	Redhasafn	hiredman, do you hate me too?
19:03	hiredman	it used derby at one point
19:03	technomancy	see I like derby because it makes me think of hats
19:03	technomancy	h2 makes me think of hydrogen and the Hindenberg
19:03	hiredman	Redhasafn: if you have to ask
19:03	arrdem	Redhasafn: hello again chord
19:04	dsrx	derby makes me think of hitting a home run
19:04	hiredman	h2 is apparently really fast, in single threaded mode that throws exceptions when multiple threads try to use it
19:04	Redhasafn	Everyone hates me
19:04	Redhasafn	including AimHere
19:05	hiredman	I'm a derby man
19:06	dobry-den	so far though, datomic is a wizard abstraction over lucene + db implementation for me. hopefully it also lets me fake it til i make it when i get it set up with postgres
19:07	bitemyapp	"wizard abstraction"
19:08	dobry-den	i have a certain hubris about my stack these days. i feel like my users respect me that much more when i put 'Powered by Clojure and Datomic' in the footer
19:08	dobry-den	and when they read my stacktraces
19:09	bitemyapp	dobry-den: definitely cooler than `Warning: mysql_connect(): Too many connections in /var/www/database/mysql/common.php on line 10`
19:09	bitemyapp	dobry-den: can't wait to construct a Datomic query (indirectly) that OOMs your box running the peer.
19:12	jstew	why can I do (map-indexed (fn [i e] [i e]) [1 2 3]), but not (map-indexed #([%1 %2]) [1 2 3])?
19:13	jstew	According to the docs, #() is syntactic sugar for (fn []..)?
19:13	Bronsa	jstew: #([%]) is (fn [a] ([a])) not (fn [a] [a])
19:13	dobry-den	If Datomic never supports ordered results, is there any other way to optimize (->> (:post/_topic topic) (sort-by :post/created <))?
19:13	dsrx	jstew: what Bronsa said
19:13	dsrx	too slow :(
19:14	dsrx	jstew: you could do #(vec %1 %2) probably?
19:14	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
19:14	dsrx	what the
19:15	jstew	Ah, makes sense.
19:15	arrdem	dsrx: clojurebot will respond to -? messages with some probability... it's an inference engine rule.
19:15	dsrx	arrdem: ah, i see
19:16	dsrx	> (map-indexed #(vector %1 %2) [1 2 3])
19:16	dsrx	, (map-indexed #(vector %1 %2) [1 2 3])
19:16	clojurebot	([0 1] [1 2] [2 3])
19:17	TEttinger	,(map-indexed vector [1 2 3])
19:17	clojurebot	([0 1] [1 2] [2 3])
19:17	dsrx	yeah, there we go
19:18	jstew	If I understand correctly, the extra () makes the reader try to evaluate the []?
19:18	dobry-den	,(map vector (iterate inc 0) [1 2 3])
19:18	clojurebot	([0 1] [1 2] [2 3])
19:18	TEttinger	that too
19:19	jstew	I'm still stumbling my way through clojure, trying to practice with code jam.
19:19	akurilin	Anybody here tried yesql?
19:20	akurilin	Trying to figure out how to pass :row-fn and :identifiers into one of the vars generated by (defquery)
19:20	bitemyapp	akurilin: honeysql didn't pan out?
19:20	bitemyapp	also I liked the slams on Korma in yesql's documentation.
19:20	akurilin	bitemyapp: never tried it, is it analogous?
19:20	TEttinger	jstew, I struggled a bit with #() at first too. it's often easy enough just to do (fn [[k v]] (+ k v)) or something, which doesn't work with #() syntax
19:20	bitemyapp	akurilin: it might come more naturally. Give it a whirl.
19:21	bitemyapp	I think at this point I am the Ron Swanson of Korma.
19:21	technomancy	yesql sounds like it needs some editor support to jump directly to the relevant SQL files
19:21	teslanick	What does being the Ron Swanson of Korma mean?
19:21	technomancy	apart from that navigation sounding really tedious to do by hand I like the sound of it
19:21	dobry-den	there are a lot of cases where i prefer (fn [...] ...) over #(...)
19:21	bitemyapp	technomancy: you know, if only there was a tool for integrating a DSL directly into a language
19:22	bitemyapp	technomancy: maybe by structuring it as a tree or list of lists and allowing data-driven transformations...
19:22	dobry-den	when #(...) has nested forms, it quickly becomes painful to read
19:22	bitemyapp	technomancy: NAHHHH. I'm fuckin' crazy.
19:22	dobry-den	like when you finally get to %1 and %2 and you don't remember what they are.
19:23	technomancy	bitemyapp: well granted I'm totally out of touch with databases these days, but I like just writing SQL
19:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: so do I
19:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: that's why I use Korma rather than an "ORM"
19:24	technomancy	cool
19:25	jstew	I'm figuring out that clojure makes me write better code by forcing me to keep my functions small
19:27	jstew	[1 2]
19:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: I think part of it may have to do with where your needs are on complexity vs. composition.
19:28	akurilin	Am I the only who doesn't like SQL DSLs for large queries? I struggle enough reading raw sql, seems like that's adding an extra transformation to it.
19:29	bitemyapp	akurilin: well that's just it, isn't it?
19:29	bitemyapp	akurilin: do you need more leverage with programmatically composing components of queries or with parameterizing one fat query?
19:30	bitemyapp	akurilin: I believe Korma accommodates both but apparently raw-sql makes people upset. or something. I don't know.
19:30	bitemyapp	you can't compose yesql function-y thingiejobbers
19:30	bitemyapp	except for uh...partial application. That's about it. it's a string blob interpolator.
19:30	bitemyapp	if that suits your needs, awesome!
19:30	bitemyapp	but know your needs.
19:33	akurilin	I might not be exploiting the composability aspect of it too much tbh, I might need to pay more attention to that.
19:33	bitemyapp	akurilin: don't try to discover schlep, just know where your schlep is.
19:34	bitemyapp	That was a common mistake in CL. Discovering and then yak-shaving schlep for the hell of it.
19:37	alew	ddl and sql just seem like terrible ideas in retrospect
19:38	bitemyapp	Nothing really works compatibly across multiple implementations without the introduction of Pharaonic magnitudes of labor.
19:40	alew	bitemyapp: I appreciate your vocabulary
19:40	bitemyapp	alew: I appreciate your appreciation.
19:40	TEttinger	a synonym for "slavetacular"?
19:40	bitemyapp	(inc TEttinger)
19:40	lazybot	⇒ 12
19:40	arrdem	(inc TEttinger)
19:40	lazybot	⇒ 13
19:40	bitemyapp	TEttinger: ERP-esque?
19:41	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I prefer Pharaonic because it hits less-close-to-home for most people.
19:41	TEttinger	heh fair enough
19:41	bitemyapp	but slavetacular is jocular and fun :)
19:41	TEttinger	stonehengian is also fitting I think
19:41	TEttinger	"how did they move those rocks dude"
19:41	bitemyapp	TEttinger: but we don't actually know how it was built or what labor was involved.
19:42	TEttinger	so it fits your last statement!
19:42	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I would hesitate to ascribe large centralization of labor to a society for whom we have little evidence of such organization.
19:42	bitemyapp	TEttinger: also, I use Pharaonic because they didn't actually use slaves that much to build the pyramids.
19:43	TEttinger	"Nothing really works compatibly across multiple implementations without the introduction of mysterious but probably very large magnitudes of labor"
19:43	bitemyapp	it was centered around a state-sponsored core of craftsmen IIRC
19:43	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I meant large, centralized, organized.
19:43	turbofail	also, "aliens"
19:43	TEttinger	oh
19:43	TEttinger	also aliens
19:43	arrdem	TEttinger: ANSI standards can help, but probably fall under the aliens category..
19:44	TEttinger	(inc arrdem)
19:44	lazybot	⇒ 15
19:44	technomancy	so... I have an issue saying that URL-based DB specs no longer work in clojure.java.jdbc 0.3.x
19:44	turbofail	the ancient alien guy's hair is pharaonic on its own
19:45	technomancy	but I am unable to reproduce... has anyone heard of people having trouble with this?
19:47	TEttinger	technomancy, link to the issue?
19:47	technomancy	TEttinger: internal support tracker; sorry
19:47	TEttinger	ah
19:47	technomancy	"Particularly, you can no longer simply use `DATABASE_URL`, and parsing it out into a db-spec map (like at the top of https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc#example-usage) is non-trivial."
19:48	bitemyapp	akurilin: alternative to honeysql: https://github.com/r0man/sqlingvo
19:48	technomancy	anyway, this actually works for me https://github.com/technomancy/shouter/blob/master/src/shouter/models/shout.clj
19:49	technomancy	so I'm wondering if there are any specific scenarios I'm not thinking of where it might still be broken
19:49	akurilin	bitemyapp: awesome. So many options!
19:53	TEttinger	technomancy: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L140 is non-trivial? Am I correct about what this does?
19:54	bitemyapp	chare: I can't unmute you.
19:54	bitemyapp	chare: do you really think these people would give me ops? Don't be a clown.
19:54	turbofail	lol
19:54	bitemyapp	chare: the fact that you're screaming at me in privchat demonstrates why you'll never be unmuted.
19:54	bitemyapp	chare: all-caps and everything.
19:54	technomancy	TEttinger: according to this guy, those functions don't work like they should, but yeah that's the part in question
19:54	bitemyapp	chare: get a handle on yourself Neo.
19:56	bitemyapp	chare: that you're calling me a "FUCKING BACKSTABBER" also demonstrates why we're not "friends"
19:56	bitemyapp	chare: are you going to calm down?
19:57	quizdr	a couple days ago chare pm'd me to say "i've learned my lesson and can be unmuted now." oh how lessons are so easily forgotten.
19:57	bbloom	bitemyapp: if you insist on communicating with him, please do it in private chat
19:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: bbloom has a point, it's not like anyone else here is talking to him or cares.
19:57	bitemyapp	bbloom: he's ignored now.
19:58	bitemyapp	bbloom: btw <3
19:58	bbloom	bitemyapp: you're lucky my irc client forgets my ignore settings
19:59	turbofail	on the issue of SQL dsls, i've found the ability to manipulate queries as data to be pretty darn useful
19:59	turbofail	also, being able to use paredit to edit your queries is great for interactive use
19:59	bitemyapp	bbloom: why is that?
19:59	technomancy	(add-hook 'sql-mode-hook 'paredit-mode) ; =)
20:00	technomancy	^ I have not done this
20:00	bbloom	bitemyapp: b/c i've /ignore-d you 3 or 4 times now
20:00	turbofail	technomancy: yeah, but that doesn't help you skip around different clauses of your query
20:00	bitemyapp	bbloom: I don't feel lucky, but <3 anyway.
20:00	turbofail	of which there can be a lot
20:00	technomancy	turbofail: yeah, it's a pale approximation of paredit's true power
20:00	amalloy	haha, same here, bbloom. what terrible irc client do you use?
20:00	technomancy	more like "yay strings don't break"
20:00	arrdem	so show of hands, who here actually uses paredit?
20:00	bbloom	amalloy: Textual
20:01	bbloom	i think it remembers ignores if i put them in the settings, but if i just issue the command it doesn't save them
20:01	quizdr	paredit is quite nice for the basic stuff, i have yet to make use of the more complex commands aardem
20:01	technomancy	arrdem: everyone?
20:01	technomancy	hopefully
20:01	arrdem	I don't....
20:01	TEttinger	amalloy, ouch you use Purple as IRC? I'm so sorry
20:01	justin_smith	another paredit user here
20:01	amalloy	pidgin
20:02	bbloom	amalloy: i kinda like it tho, it's like a temporary ban, so i use it more often than i would otherwise
20:02	TEttinger	yep, the intenal chat stuff is called purple, and that's your ctcp version
20:02	amalloy	i know
20:02	llasram	arrdem: Well get with the program!
20:02	arrdem	llasram: once I figure out why llvm is ignoring my modules we'll see
20:02	technomancy	clojurebot: paredit?
20:02	clojurebot	paredit is not for everyone, but what you need to understand ís how to become the kind of person that paredit ís for.
20:02	amalloy	i generally have to /ignore the same people at the start of every day, so that #clojure isn't full of discussions about dota2 and trollbaiting
20:03	bitemyapp	I've liked Erlang's structural editing better.
20:03	justin_smith	the key to paredit is that kill-region and quoted insert still work, once you have that down, it is only a convenience
20:03	justin_smith	unless you use some broken-ass paredit in a non-emacs editor
20:04	arrdem	technomancy: lemme guess... you wrote that.
20:04	quizdr	is it a glaring weakness that i only use slurp and barf with paredit and nothing else?
20:04	technomancy	arrdem: bots... they are labour-saving devices
20:04	gtrak	quizdr: try M-s
20:04	RickInAtlanta	quizdr: probably, that is what I do too
20:04	turbofail	kind of. paredit raise and splice are both pretty useful
20:04	arrdem	technomancy: and I take exactly zero issue with this!
20:04	turbofail	and transpose
20:04	technomancy	quizdr: even without any specific paredit commands it's valuable on its own
20:04	TEttinger	,(map int "understand ís")
20:04	clojurebot	(117 110 100 101 114 ...)
20:05	TEttinger	gah
20:05	technomancy	just the fact that it keeps edits from messing the buffer up
20:05	turbofail	i use paredit-raise all the time
20:05	TEttinger	well what I'm confused is why the i is an í
20:05	technomancy	TEttinger: whoa
20:06	arrdem	TEttinger: did you insert-char by accident or something?
20:06	amalloy	quizdr: M-( is one i use all the time
20:06	justin_smith	TEttinger: int value of 237
20:06	technomancy	TEttinger: I guess the answer is that clojurebot is a simulation of an unstable personality and does all kinds of crazy things just to mess with you
20:06	amalloy	and like...M-r, plus i mapped in convolute-sexp for occasional use
20:06	TEttinger	arrdem, no, I was intentionally trying to figure out why the i has an acute
20:06	arrdem	I should invert my number row so that 9 and 0 are ( and ) by default...
20:06	arrdem	~inventory
20:07	amalloy	arrdem: i've had it that way for two or three years. big win imo
20:07	arrdem	amalloy: kk. I'm just realizing how rarely I do numeric input compared to inserting special symbols. programming ftw.
20:07	arrdem	it'd also help me write more swearjure..
20:07	TEttinger	hahaha
20:07	quizdr	I've seen the M-( shorcut on cheat sheets but it does nothing on mine unless I 'm not using it correctly
20:08	turbofail	do it next to an existing expression
20:08	quizdr	gtrak M-s is nice, thanks for the tip. i'll use that one.
20:09	RickInAtlanta	does Light Table have paredit?
20:09	gtrak	that's splice
20:09	quizdr	so M-( is basically the same as adding a new parenthesis and slurping the expression to teh right? I suppose this saves me one keystroke
20:09	turbofail	yeah
20:10	amalloy	well, several keystrokes really, because (-then-slurp often leaves you with a SPC you need to remove as well
20:11	quizdr	amalloy what is SPC?
20:11	quizdr	sorry don't know all the lingo
20:11	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:11	turbofail	it doesn't leave a space in the most recent paredit version
20:11	amalloy	\space
20:11	quizdr	oh
20:11	quizdr	a couple of you mentioned paredit-raise, how is that?
20:12	amalloy	pretty handy
20:12	amalloy	M-r
20:12	gtrak	we need a cheatsheets sorted by popularity.
20:13	quizdr	so my naive interpration of raise is that it is splicing the affected symbol while deleting all the others in the sexpr, is that right?
20:13	turbofail	yeah, basically it replaces the parent s-expression with the one at point
20:14	quizdr	i can see that being useful
20:15	technomancy	the coolest one is paredit-convolute-sexp
20:15	turbofail	i still haven't figured that one out
20:15	technomancy	I honestly can't describe what it does in actual words
20:15	technomancy	and I don't use it very often
20:15	locks	LOL
20:16	technomancy	but when I do it feels really cool
20:16	TEttinger	technomancy is making hand gestures trying to figure out how to explain it
20:16	RickInAtlanta	what is the keybinding for that one?
20:16	quizdr	that's pretty funny actually
20:16	technomancy	TEttinger: and sound effects
20:16	TEttinger	(inc technomancy)
20:16	lazybot	⇒ 94
20:16	technomancy	RickInAtlanta: I don't think it's bound by default; I just M-x it because it's rare
20:17	amalloy	i bound it to M-LEFT
20:17	gtrak	lol M-x is rare?
20:17	gtrak	maybe for technomancy
20:17	amalloy	just cause like...it feels like i'm doing stuff to the left of point, and it's not common enough to deserve a spot on the home row
20:17	justin_smith	M-x is needed for rare commands, that being rare, are not bound to keys
20:17	technomancy	it's basically "turn this thing inside out by taking the following sexp and embedding the surrounding sexp inside it"
20:18	technomancy	terrible explanation because it is fundamentally ineffable
20:18	amalloy	(map inc (map dec \|xs)) ===convolute==> (map dec (map inc xs))
20:18	justin_smith	"it's like a popple, but it's your code"
20:18	locks	oh
20:18	RickInAtlanta	wow
20:19	gtrak	ah, technomancy I first interpreted your sentence as replacing binding convolute-sexp to M-x. My further comments can make sense either way.
20:19	technomancy	gtrak: heh; sure
20:21	bitemyapp	Raynes: you're doing Python these days and should be able to appreciate this: ''.join(map(''.join, edn_parse.fold_thing(1, '\|', "blah\|\|\|woot")[0]))
20:21	bitemyapp	Raynes: it's hiding a 20 line closure >:)
20:22	technomancy	"but it's pythonic!"
20:22	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm using it because it's fast.
20:22	bitemyapp	in this case.
20:22	bitemyapp	trying to do harm reduction on the already extant insanity in this parser.
20:23	technomancy	bitemyapp: oh no not the fact that you're using it
20:23	technomancy	it's idiomatic python supposedly
20:23	RickInAtlanta	I got an email from a recruiter today that said "I have a 12 month perl contract that you would be perfect for"
20:23	arrdem	RickInAtlanta: I'm so sorry
20:23	RickInAtlanta	I am trying to remember what I did to upset him
20:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: I don't try very hard to write idiomatic Python because their idioms are silly and unprincipled.
20:23	technomancy	it's just hilarious how people defend it as something that actually makes sense and deserves to be idiomatic
20:25	bbloom	i always chuckle when i see a string multiplied by a number :-P
20:25	bbloom	feels kinda APL-ish
20:26	arrdem	,(* "a" 4)
20:26	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
20:26	locks	‘’.join is idiomatic python? what’s the explanation
20:26	arrdem	bbloom: not here obviously...
20:26	bitemyapp	locks: lets not and say we did.
20:26	technomancy	locks: because guido said so
20:26	bitemyapp	^^
20:26	arrdem	python: because guido said so
20:27	locks	php: fuck it, we’ll do it live
20:27	bitemyapp	I'm always really happy I use desktop-mode when I accidentally take an axe to my emacs.
20:27	tos9	locks: mostly that it's a place to put it that requires implementing it only once.
20:28	bitemyapp	It's always a bad sign when I have code I want to show coworkers in person just so I can see their horrified expressions.
20:28	quizdr	bbloom forgive me but what does APL mean?
20:28	TEttinger	it's a very terse programming language
20:28	bitemyapp	quizdr: "A Programming Language"
20:28	TEttinger	with its own character set
20:29	bbloom	quizdr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmT80OseAGs
20:29	locks	APL is one of the most glorious programming languages ever
20:29	TEttinger	like in clojure you have range, which is 5 characters, plus a space between it and its args, and parens. in APL you have an iota character from greek, and next to it a number.
20:30	locks	I saw the core.matrix presentation yesterday, he mentions APL
20:30	bbloom	locks: APL is the original core.matrix ;-)
20:30	TEttinger	you very rarely need whitespace in APL, so people use it rarely, and it leads to legendary feats of hard-to-read code
20:30	bitemyapp	locks: like carving runes into one's grimoire, as I always say.
20:31	arrdem	bitemyapp: carving... paper.
20:31	bitemyapp	TEttinger: to be fair, it bears a faint resemblance to the aggressively pipe-y Python I write.
20:31	TEttinger	there's also the left and right args
20:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: I can demonstrate sometime if you want.
20:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: just because it's physically possible doesn't mean it was the appropriate verb...
20:32	turbofail	the nice part about APL is that your code is already greekified for when you put it in a paper
20:32	locks	I actually want to try J, see if I can make sense of anything
20:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm dreaming of soldering irons, smoke, and fearful coworkers.
20:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: you could say...I have a dream.
20:34	locks	turbofail: that gives me an idea…
20:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: I tried that once... loooong time ago. I think I managed to ruin that soldering iron quite thoroughly.
20:34	bitemyapp	time to end my work day triumphant, now that I have wrought horrors in the process of making a test pass.
20:35	bitemyapp	also lol @ test that relies on deterministically ordered results in HAMTs. Just lol.
20:36	bitemyapp	not even my coworker's fault, pretty sure that came with the library.
20:39	koreth_	Has anyone had experience trying to train "average" Java programmers to write Clojure? I'm consulting on a project where the Java code is a mess and parts of it would be dramatically cleaner in Clojure, but then I stop and think, "The team who created this mess would have to maintain it, and they are barely competent in Java, let alone a new language none of them has ever seen."
20:39	bitemyapp	koreth_: yeah.
20:40	bitemyapp	koreth_: they weren't amazing at Java, but they knew a bit of Python.
20:40	bitemyapp	koreth_: went well, they write good Clojure now, although some of it is idiomatically naive, the fundamentals are definitely there.
20:40	koreth_	Thanks. That's encouraging!
20:40	turbofail	at the very least they'll have fewer thread-unsafe bits
20:40	bitemyapp	it was fairly hands off on my part, I pointed them in the right direction and swooped in for code reviews periodically.
20:40	technomancy	koreth_: keep in mind that programming against immutable data structures is fundamentally less mental overhead
20:41	bitemyapp	koreth_: the code reviews were the teachable moments.
20:41	technomancy	the difficulties arise more from unfamiliarity than inherent difficulty
20:41	bitemyapp	koreth_: what technomancy said. I use FP because I'm dumb.
20:41	bitemyapp	koreth_: smart people zip along in C++, nary a care in the world.
20:41	arrdem	technomancy: or more, until you get the hang of it...
20:41	bitemyapp	koreth_: there is an initial ramp, but the blocker there is time and well-directed effort, not raw intellect.
20:42	technomancy	arrdem: well yeah if you want to mess around just for kicks you can certainly take it to another level =)
20:42	technomancy	clojurebot: juxt?
20:42	clojurebot	juxt is a little hard to grok but it's the best thing ever
20:42	koreth_	The irony is that most of the Java code that needs work is actually used to build up big immutable trees of maps. (Well, technically mutable but they never mutate it after it's built.)
20:42	koreth_	Thanks, this gives me the encouragement I needed!
20:42	bbloom	obligatory: <3 juxt
20:42	bitemyapp	technomancy: I will say that while it's a lot more general, sequence is harder to understand than juxt.
20:42	arrdem	eew. yeah. perfect application of Clojure.
20:42	bitemyapp	koreth_: .copy() lol
20:50	bitemyapp	`sequence [[1], [2], [3]] => [1, 2, 3]` ; `sequence [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3] => Just [1, 2, 3]` `sequence [succ, pred, (*3)] 4 => [5, 3, 12]`
21:09	koreth_	The Java code base I'm looking at uses Spring for dependency injection. If I want to port some of the existing Java code to Clojure, it'll have to play nice with the rest of the application, which means accepting injected dependencies. What would be the closest thing to an idiomatic approach? Atoms are the obvious one.
21:10	koreth_	Or am I just thinking about it completely wrong (likely)?
21:10	technomancy	I haven't used dependency injection, but from what I understand you usually just take a function as an argument for that kind of thing
21:11	jeremyheiler	koreth_: if you need objects from the applicationcontext, i'd think giving clojure access to that object woudl be easier
21:12	marcopolo`	Why shouldn't you use go blocks to run IO intensive code?
21:12	marcopolo`	I remember tbaldridge saying something about that
21:14	bbloom	marcopolo`: b/c your IO will block other go blocks b/c they are essentially cooperatively multithreaded. you can use core.async/thread blocks with the <!! and >!! operators for real threads that can actually execute simultaneously
21:16	marcopolo`	bbloom: Ah, and that's because we can't change how the JVM treats blocking for IO?
21:16	bbloom	marcopolo`: i guess you can think of it that way.... the point is that blocking IO calls are just that: blocking. where as <! and >! are semantically blocking, but implemented as "parking"
21:16	bbloom	<!! and >!! are actually blocking
21:17	bbloom	but they only block their thread, not all other parking pseudothreads that are sharing that real thread
21:17	marcopolo`	gotcha, thanks
21:18	marcopolo`	so if there was a hypothetical IO operation that used events, a go block would be fine, because it isn't really blocking, just listening for events?
21:18	marcopolo`	in other words, Clojurescript wouldn't have the same issues, right?
21:19	bbloom	um, i'm not sure if i can answer your question yes or no, so i'll just say something that should make it clearer
21:20	bbloom	all IO in javascript requires callbacks. you can use put! and take! to convert callbacks in to channel operations and then use the go macro for IO stuff. there is no thread macro in cljs
21:20	bbloom	if you had callback-based IO on the JVM (and there is stuff like that, NIO, etc) then you can do the same thing
21:21	bbloom	it may be illustrative to think about what happens if you just write a loop that is slow
21:21	bbloom	in javascript, it will block all other stuff
21:22	bbloom	with core.async, a slow loop will... block a thread, but there is usually a pool of threads (approximately one per core or something like that)
21:22	arrdem	bitemyapp: gimme something to build in Rust...
21:22	bbloom	if you use thread and <!! and >!! on the JVM instead of go and <! and >! then your slow loop will only block the one thread that you created
21:22	bbloom	marcopolo`: clear now?
21:24	marcopolo`	Yes thank you. However does callback-based IO allow you to do more IO in go blocks since it wouldn't be blocking the same way?
21:25	bbloom	marcopolo`: potentially, but you'd need to use take! and put! and glue it together with callbacks at the "edges"
21:25	marcopolo`	I understand you would still get bogged down by the computation part of it
21:25	justin_smith	a go block is a pseudo-thread that creates callbacks
21:25	justin_smith	*is made out of callbacks
21:25	justin_smith	they are invisible to your code though
21:25	justin_smith	said pseudo thread also runs in a thread on the jvm though
21:26	marcopolo`	okay I think I understand that limitation
21:26	marcopolo`	thanks bbloom and justin_smith
21:26	marcopolo`	(inc bbloom)
21:26	lazybot	⇒ 22
21:26	marcopolo`	(icn justin_smith)
21:26	marcopolo`	(inc justin_smith)
21:26	lazybot	⇒ 26
21:34	quizdr	is that lazybot interpreting clojure without an escape string prepended?
21:34	arrdem	quizdr: no
21:34	bbloom	quizdr: special cased karma system
21:34	marcopolo`	for certain phrases it knows
21:34	bbloom	$karma quizdr
21:34	lazybot	quizdr has karma 0.
21:35	bbloom	(inc quizdr) ; just cus you asked
21:35	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:35	bbloom	$karma quizdr
21:35	lazybot	quizdr has karma 1.
21:35	quizdr	interesting
21:35	quizdr	well, for answering that one
21:35	quizdr	(inc bbloom)
21:35	lazybot	⇒ 23
21:36	bitemyapp	arrdem: hum
21:36	arrdem	bitemyapp: actually never mind I have one
21:37	bitemyapp	koreth_: don't use atoms.
21:37	bitemyapp	arrdem: what?
21:38	koreth_	bitemyapp: What's the better approach, given that the code will be called from a Java container?
21:39	saj	Using korma, how do I perform a join on an entity that has a "has-many" relationship with itself?
21:39	bitemyapp	koreth_: function as an argument or a protocol.
21:40	sritchie	ddellacosta: hey, did you see the friend post?
21:40	sritchie	curious to hear your take on if I made it too confusing
21:41	saj	I get an "ambigious column name" error because it's using the same table name to refer to the select and the join row
21:41	ddellacosta	sritchie: I read about halfway through, sorry I haven't finished it yet! Let me finish it up right now
21:42	sritchie	haha, it's so freaking long
21:42	ddellacosta	sritchie: I think it probably was too confusing though, to be completely honest. Part of the problem is that friend is somewhat confusing, and more to the point, oauth2 is confusing
21:42	sritchie	yeah, I didn't even touch oauth
21:42	ddellacosta	sritchie: yeah, I mean, you covered a little bit of the flow out of necessity I guess
21:42	sritchie	oh, yeah, that one mention
21:42	ddellacosta	sritchie: it gave me a lot of food for thought though, re: authn/authz in clojure web apps
21:43	sritchie	ddellacosta: there's got to be a better way to structure it all
21:43	ddellacosta	sritchie: I meant to write a response to your mailing list post, sorry I have not been engaged
21:43	sritchie	no worries
21:43	sritchie	ddellacosta: I had originally tried to implement a friend-like thing as a Liberator resource
21:43	ddellacosta	sritchie: yeah. I've also built an authorization system wrapping apache shiro and that gave me some things to ponder--it was problematic in its own way (mostly: very java)
21:43	sritchie	but the redirect handling was pretty tough without a watching middleware
21:44	ddellacosta	sritchie: I think friend is the right direction, but maybe it needs a bit more refining of the way it is structured.
21:44	sritchie	yup
21:44	koreth_	bitemyapp: I am no doubt being dim but I don't see how that could work. I have to provide a setter that takes a Java service object as an argument, and the setter will be called once at app startup. How will functions as arguments get that value to the Clojure code that needs it later on?
21:44	ddellacosta	sritchie: well, let me read through it fully and write something substantial. I'm definitely super interested in the discussion and helping push friend and/or whatever the community wants to work on forward
21:45	sritchie	awesome
21:45	sritchie	yeah, I appreciate it
21:46	ddellacosta	sritchie: yeah, same here--it's great all the work you've done getting this going and trying to build something real-world. That's the only way to know what the issues are with these systems, shake them out, and build something better.
21:46	ddellacosta	sritchie: so, kudos and thanks on that.
21:46	sritchie	yeah, to you too
21:47	sritchie	I should put together something for that other oauth2 stuff so we can try and sync up
21:47	ddellacosta	sritchie: okay, sounds good.
22:08	luxbock	there's a library that I would like to use, but it's not on Clojars/Maven
22:08	luxbock	mainly this one: https://github.com/levand/prolin
22:08	luxbock	can I just submit it there on my own or what should I do?
22:13	noprompt	luxbock: you could clone it and do a `lein install`, bug the author to release it on clojars, or, finally, clone it change the project name to luxbock/prolin, push that to clojars and be on your merry way. ;-)
22:13	bitemyapp	koreth_: you need to learn more FP I think.
22:13	luxbock	alright
22:13	bitemyapp	koreth_: and figure out some ways to cross the Clojure/Java bridge
22:13	noprompt	luxbock: i've had cognac.
22:14	bitemyapp	koreth_: this is not a subject I can efficiently summarize in an IRC channel.
22:14	luxbock	haha, thanks for the disclaimer
22:14	bitemyapp	koreth_: when you feel comfortable with a solution that doesn't involve global mutable state and think your coworkers could understand it, then you'll probably have a plausible approach for porting the Java app.
22:14	koreth_	bitemyapp: That's what I'm trying to do. Where should I look for more discussion of this? I spent a fair while searching before coming here to ask about it.
22:14	bitemyapp	koreth_: as it is, you're better off stepping back at a coarser grained level
22:14	bitemyapp	koreth_: and parting out the application at the systems level (a subject Hickey has talked about)
22:15	bitemyapp	koreth_: and letting Clojure do what it does best, on its own terms.
22:15	bitemyapp	koreth_: a naively implemented frankenstein doesn't make you (or Clojure) look good.
22:15	bitemyapp	koreth_: look into SOA to see what I mean by 'coarser grained'
22:15	bitemyapp	it'll save you reimplementing everything at once.
22:16	noprompt	i'm gonna write a syntax highlighter in pure clojure. wish me luck.
22:17	noprompt	bitemyapp: when you purchase the "top shelf shit" you can do anything.
22:17	arrdem	noprompt: m0ar power to ya...
22:17	bitemyapp	noprompt: truth.
22:17	bitemyapp	noprompt: yak that shit up.
22:18	noprompt	arrdem: what's the elipsis suggest? fear? doubt? BORDEM?
22:18	koreth_	So basically, step 1 in migrating to Clojure: completely rearchitect the app. That's disappointing though I do take your point and you are most likely exactly right.
22:18	arrdem	noprompt: doubt in ultimate success.. concern based on relative task complexity for a drinking project...
22:18	luxbock	after 'lein install', how do I find out what to include in my project.clj to include that library as a dependency?
22:19	bitemyapp	koreth_: monolithic applications are an anti-pattern. Monolithic Spring applications doubly so.
22:19	arrdem	noprompt: whatever offends you more :P
22:19	luxbock	I tried looking at the pom.xml that was generated but I couldn't make much sense of it
22:19	bitemyapp	koreth_: the monolith and the Spring are bigger problems than it being in Java.
22:19	bitemyapp	koreth_: systemic problems are more dangerous than linguistic ones.
22:19	bitemyapp	koreth_: doesn't mean your SOA-ization can't involve Clojure, it sure can, but you have to decomplect and componentize before that makes sense.
22:19	noprompt	arrdem: well it's not like i'm totally smashed. plus i have some experience wrt this sort of thing.
22:20	bitemyapp	koreth_: I have patterns/approaches for things like DI and IoC in Clojure, but it's...man...not right now.
22:20	bitemyapp	koreth_: you're better off drinking deeper from the FP pool of knowledge than you are going through the pain I did to model that sort of stuff.
22:20	arrdem	noprompt: I'll be interested to see what you come up with, and I hope that it's generally extensible to arbitrary tag higlighting.
22:20	koreth_	Sure, I don't expect anyone to write a book in an IRC discussion.
22:20	noprompt	arrdem: "this sort of thing" can be read either as cognac or lexing.
22:21	noprompt	arrdem: which ever makes you laugh.
22:21	arrdem	noprompt: I hate parsing/lexing with a firey passion, which is unfortunate because I like languages and compilers.
22:21	noprompt	arrdem: bro. it's gotta be extensible.
22:21	koreth_	Thanks, bitemyapp -- you are no doubt steering me clear of a bunch of pain.
22:22	arrdem	koreth_: the advice is definitely good once you get over the delivery.
22:22	noprompt	arrdem: the lexing/parsing part is the most fun!
22:23	arrdem	noprompt: ..... no. just no.
22:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: he's always like that. always enthused about those kinds of problems.
22:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: I keep telling him he needs to try Parsec, but I'm starting to hesitate because I think he'd end up writing a compiler just so he could use it more.
22:23	noprompt	arrdem: actually syntax highlighting is kind of sad because most of the time people use a plain old lexer to do it. i mean it works but it would be much better to use a real "hardcore" parse.
22:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: I've used parsec-likes so that I could get on with writing a compiler and escaping parser garbage...
22:24	bitemyapp	noprompt: my bullshit fold-in-parser worked btw.
22:24	bbloom	bitemyapp: parsec is a damn good parser combinator library, but i generally dislike combinator libraries that don't reify a real data structure for the parser or parse tree
22:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: I haven't seen any that attain the true sorcery of the original, but it's halfway there and nice to have.
22:25	bbloom	or rather more generally for any combinator library: the data structure for the composed program
22:25	bitemyapp	I know this pains you, but the functions are the data.
22:25	bbloom	if it doesn't instance show, it doesn't count :-P
22:25	arrdem	noprompt: sure sure. TBH I think that there are a lot of really fun things left to be done with editing programs by ASTs. which is sad because one of my professors wrote his own structural editor back in the 1980s and it went nowhere..
22:26	bitemyapp	bbloom: I've seen tree-aware show for free monads.
22:26	arrdem	noprompt: in-editor semantic analysis and highlighting based on the AST for instance.
22:26	arrdem	noprompt: AST based drag and drop code motion including comments...
22:26	arrdem	noprompt: all kinds of cool stuff. all eventually possible in LT!
22:26	noprompt	arrdem: that's what the world needs.
22:26	bbloom	bitemyapp: let me know when the haskell people drag combinator libraries all the way back to lisp & i'll happily give it a try
22:27	bitemyapp	bbloom: well, liskell. but I know what you mean. I'd like that too, it's just not as important to me as not chasing errors.
22:27	noprompt	arrdem: seriously. structural editing makes coding much more pleasurable.
22:27	arrdem	bitemyapp: I just won an argument with a C programmer by bashing on the C pointer system. what do I win.
22:27	brehaut	haha
22:27	brehaut	not needing to write C ?
22:27	arrdem	brehaut: if Rust takes off I hope so...
22:28	arrdem	(dec so)
22:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: wait what who?
22:28	lazybot	⇒ -1
22:28	arrdem	(dec also)
22:28	lazybot	⇒ 0
22:28	bbloom	bitemyapp: instaparse is a nice compromise. the combinators return maps of production names to combiners
22:28	turbofail	arrdem: a pointer, mounted as a hunting trophy
22:28	arrdem	bbloom: instaparse is the shit
22:28	bbloom	(dec so) ; too, i hate the highlighting when i use common words
22:28	lazybot	⇒ -2
22:28	bitemyapp	bbloom: it's reasonable and nice to use, but attoparsec/parsec present a supremely practical production/prototype pair.
22:28	bitemyapp	(dec so)
22:28	lazybot	⇒ -3
22:29	noprompt	`lein new blood` ... (defproject blood :description "A syntax highlighter written in blood" ... welp that's a start.
22:30	noprompt	:(
22:30	noprompt	ok i should probably cook my lamb chops now.
22:30	brehaut	ah
22:30	brehaut	err sorry
22:30	noprompt	bbloom, bitemyapp is there anything close to Parsec for clojure?
22:30	arrdem	noprompt: instaparse
22:31	arrdem	$google instaparse
22:31	lazybot	[Engelberg/instaparse · GitHub] https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse
22:31	arrdem	noprompt: not blazing fast but really really easy to work with.
22:31	noprompt	arrdem: true. good to know it's not fast. i wrote a CSS parser with it and the resulting parser was slow as mud.
22:32	noprompt	arrdem: i wasn't sure if it was instaparse or if i just wrote a bad grammar.
22:32	arrdem	noprompt: some of it is the grammar... some of it is the toolkit
22:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: programming via type errors is going well so far in Rust-land.
22:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm fiddling with a benchmark.
22:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm still browsing r/guns and thinking about food... the coffee crash isn't kind.
22:33	noprompt	bitemyapp: what instrument is the benchmark playing?
22:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's why I drink tea.
22:33	arrdem	(inc noprompt)
22:33	lazybot	⇒ 5
22:33	bitemyapp	noprompt: Golang channels vs. Rust tasks. FIGHT
22:33	arrdem	noprompt: what are you doing that you only have 5 karma. I'm at 15 already and you totally do more awesome stuff.
22:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: he writes libraries and doesn't use IRC much ;)
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: legitimate.
22:34	noprompt	arrdem: that and i don't say anything worth a damn in here.
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: http://i.imgur.com/fkrcD9R.jpg why would you ever...
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: mosin in an aluminum frame
22:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: fuck 'em with a rake.
22:35	bitemyapp	that poor mosin :(
22:39	seangrove	arrdem: He's doing better than me. It can always get worse...
22:40	arrdem	and this is why we wanted Cloutjure to have github/clojars as input sources...
22:40	justin_smith	I think karma is kind of silly, but really the easiest way to get it is to crack a good joke or solve a bug in some code from someone that doesn't know clojure yet
22:41	justin_smith	it's easy, half the time it's just that they are using map as if it was eager
22:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: man I am getting thoroughly reamed by the compiler.
22:41	noprompt	ugh. if i see one more mashup of "clojure" and another word i'm gonna see one more mashup of "clojure" and another word.
22:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: like poorly dribbling a soccer-ball and then getting waterboarded in a puddle of mud by the soccer coach.
22:41	justin_smith	that sounds terrible
22:41	justin_smith	(fits both previous statements actually)
22:42	bitemyapp	justin_smith: Rust.
22:42	bitemyapp	I am doing stupid, error-causing things and it is stopping me.
22:42	justin_smith	hah
22:43	noprompt	seriously. jump on wikipedia. name your library after a planet or a japanese demon or something. something that's not "cloduhr" or "duhrjure" or whatever.
22:44	bitemyapp	noprompt: I do similar things!
22:44	bitemyapp	noprompt: my latest name I picked was "yama"
22:44	noprompt	when people do that, i don't wanna use their shit.
22:44	RickInAtlanta	I was creating a project called "filer" unitl I saw that leiningen restricted project names, so I had to see what would happen if I called it filejure
22:44	bitemyapp	highly recommend: http://thesaurus.com/
22:44	bitemyapp	RickInAtlanta: are you in alabama?
22:44	seangrove	I name worker machines from things like that, last one was samjoko
22:45	eraserhd	Is there a way to compare for identity in clojure (e.g. == in Java)?
22:45	bitemyapp	nobody answers
22:45	RickInAtlanta	bitemyapp: I reccmend maps.google.com
22:45	bitemyapp	I got this
22:45	bitemyapp	eraserhd: okay.
22:45	bitemyapp	eraserhd: we can do this.
22:45	eraserhd	bitemyapp: ?
22:45	noprompt	seangrove: see there. that's a bad ass name.
22:45	bitemyapp	eraserhd: you are very close already.
22:46	bitemyapp	eraserhd: take what you just said and combine it with a word
22:46	bitemyapp	eraserhd: guess!
22:46	seangrove	Well, could use a little bit of a hint...
22:46	noprompt	ganymede. that's a killer name! why hasn't someone named a library that?
22:46	seangrove	"Are these two things ... ?"
22:46	bitemyapp	eraserhd: guess the obvious thing!
22:46	eraserhd	same?
22:46	seangrove	Another word for same
22:46	TEttinger	has a q in it
22:46	bitemyapp	eraserhd: you already used the right word
22:47	bitemyapp	TEttinger: dammit silence
22:47	TEttinger	squid?
22:47	bitemyapp	eraserhd: just combine it with...
22:47	justin_smith	TEttinger - there is one without a q in it that does that
22:47	justin_smith	I feel like this is a game show
22:48	eraserhd	,(apropos "q")
22:48	clojurebot	(chunked-seq? sequential? doseq sequence rseq ...)
22:48	bitemyapp	eraserhd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuABhumm6fY
22:48	bitemyapp	eraserhd: dude, TEttinger was fucking with you. there's no q
22:48	bitemyapp	eraserhd: you already said the word once.
22:48	bitemyapp	eraserhd: guess the MOST OBVIOUS possible thing!
22:48	TEttinger	oh I meant equals
22:48	eraserhd	oh, identical?
22:48	bitemyapp	,(identical? {} {})
22:48	clojurebot	true
22:49	eraserhd	,(identical 'a 'a)
22:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: identical in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:49	TEttinger	one way of doing it?
22:49	eraserhd	,(identical? 'a 'a)
22:49	clojurebot	false
22:49	TEttinger	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet see if you already mentioned the function
22:49	eraserhd	Sweet.
22:50	bitemyapp	,(.equals 'a 'a)
22:50	clojurebot	true
22:50	seangrove	Equality is an intriguingly philosophical questions
22:50	TEttinger	bitemyapp, I see a q
22:50	seangrove	Grammar, less so
22:50	bitemyapp	TEttinger: different semantics yo.
22:50	eraserhd	You know, the word "identical" to me implies two different objects.
22:50	seangrove	Hrm...
22:51	eraserhd	:)
22:51	ToBeReplaced	eraserhd: why's that? i thought most languages shared the identical-means-same-object convention
22:52	seangrove	Maybe instead of (identical? ...) it should be (occupies-the-same-place-and-time? )
22:52	ToBeReplaced	or (same-object?)
22:53	noprompt	what about (are-these-two-fucking-things-the-same? )
22:53	seangrove	Turtles all the way down...
22:53	seangrove	We need symbolic grounding!
22:53	TEttinger	jeez, I was wrong here. I thought the == part of the question was asking about = in clojure :\|
22:54	bitemyapp	TEttinger: wheeeeee
22:54	bitemyapp	,[(System/identityHashCode {}) (System/identityHashCode {})]
22:54	clojurebot	[20331287 20331287]
22:55	eraserhd	ToBeReplaced: Well, to my ear "comparing for identity" is slightly different meaning from "identical".
22:55	eraserhd	same-object? would be the clearest thing to me.
22:55	bitemyapp	,(let [a {}] [(System/identityHashCode (assoc a :a 1)) (System/identityHashCode (assoc a :a 1))])
22:55	clojurebot	[29197670 25242632]
22:56	noprompt	eraserhd: to make it really clear you could use screaming dash case (SAME-OBJECT??? )
22:56	eraserhd	TEttinger: I have discovered that splay trees are difficult in an immutable language.
22:56	eraserhd	BUT I have figured out how to do it.
22:56	TEttinger	eraserhd, that's interesting
22:56	eraserhd	Though I'm afraid I'm too tired to finish it this evening.
22:57	bitemyapp	,(let [a {} b {}] [(identical? (assoc a :a 1) (assoc a :a 1)) (identical? a b)])
22:57	clojurebot	[false true]
22:57	TEttinger	I would have thought the opposite since Okasaki's book was about pure data structures
22:58	eraserhd	Okasaki's book doesn't mention splay trees, though.
22:58	TEttinger	whaaaat I thought... hm I should find it
22:59	eraserhd	I didn't actually have the book, I looked through the TOC on amazon.
22:59	eraserhd	So I might stand to be corrected. That would be cool.
23:00	bitemyapp	do I need to say it?
23:00	bitemyapp	it's between 0200 and 0500, I'm doing it.
23:00	bitemyapp	eraserhd: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/TreeStructures-0.0.2/docs/Data-Tree-Splay.html
23:00	eraserhd	Hahaha. I just typed "(cdr (cdr" into my clojure.
23:01	bitemyapp	eraserhd: https://gist.github.com/m2ym/4232390 http://comonadology.blogspot.com/2013/02/splay-tree-access-is-coalgebraic.html
23:02	arrdem	lolz
23:02	Bronsa	bitemyapp: (let [a [1] b [1]] (identical? a b)) returns true when compiled with tools.emitter.jvm. similar "optimization" used for the expr you were testing.
23:03	Bronsa	eraserhd: dude, nnext.
23:04	arrdem	Bronsa: or ffirst...
23:04	bitemyapp	Bronsa: we need a ffffffffffirst
23:04	eraserhd	Heh. I was trying to avoid the zipper. That does make it lots easier, though.
23:05	arrdem	bitemyapp: I remember reading a Racket extension that added arbitrary C[AD]R support...
23:05	noprompt	bitemyapp: (reach-in-there-and-grab-the-first-item-in-the-first-most-deeply-nested-list xs)
23:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: Racket users are my favorite crazy people.
23:05	TEttinger	eraserhd: ! just found something https://github.com/cpdomina/SplayTree
23:05	bitemyapp	noprompt: well we kinda have that.
23:05	arrdem	bitemyapp: ... the implication of this is that you consider Haskellers and Pythonistas more stable. I find this disturbing.
23:06	noprompt	bitemyapp: and there should be a note that says "TODO: Figure out what the fuck I'm doing"
23:06	Bronsa	oh god
23:06	Bronsa	there's a nfirst
23:06	Bronsa	I never knew
23:06	bitemyapp	,(def l [[[[[[[[[[1]]]]]]]]]])
23:06	clojurebot	#'sandbox/l
23:06	amalloy	Purely Functional Data Structures goes into splay heaps
23:06	bitemyapp	,(let [[[[[[[[[[[x]]]]]]]]]] l] (println x))
23:06	clojurebot	1\n
23:06	arrdem	amalloy: that's on my shelf... I need to finish reading it sometime.
23:06	bitemyapp	ffffffffffirst. QED.
23:07	Bronsa	beautiful.
23:07	bitemyapp	s/[/f/g
23:07	amalloy	which, as i understand it, is just using a splay tree as a heap implementation. so yes, it does go over splay trees
23:08	amalloy	nfirst. wow
23:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: Python users aren't my favorite though. Haskell users are merely sorcerers and wizards of various sorts.
23:08	Bronsa	I need to find a place to use nfirst ASAP
23:08	bitemyapp	,(nfirst [[:a :e] [[:d :c]] [[:b]]])
23:08	clojurebot	(:e)
23:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: ... what is this sorcery
23:09	arrdem	,(doc nfirst)
23:09	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (next (first x))"
23:09	Cr8	this is nifty
23:09	amalloy	Bronsa: i bet it'll be even harder to find a use for than cdar
23:09	bitemyapp	amalloy: well when you have destructuring...
23:09	seangrove	Cr8: Yeup, we're really enjoying it
23:10	seangrove	Has some sharp edges though
23:10	arrdem	amalloy: that's easy.... that's just (second).
23:10	amalloy	no it isn't
23:10	amalloy	that would be cadr
23:10	amalloy	cdar is nfirst
23:10	Cr8	seangrove: what've you run into. I'm about an hour in, got my data model and some update helpers defined, doing live repl testing and that's nifty
23:11	arrdem	right because you chase the pointer in the value cell.
23:11	arrdem	damn
23:11	Cr8	but now I'm going to be actually adding the interaction
23:11	RickInAtlanta	seangrove: Cr8: are you planning on blogging about your Om projects? I would love to read about them
23:12	bitemyapp	RickInAtlanta: not much luck, can't find Atlanta in Alabama. Are you sure?
23:12	seangrove	Cr8: Be sure to centralize your mutations/transformations or things can become difficult to track down
23:12	bitemyapp	RickInAtlanta: almost same number of "a"s though, can't be far.
23:12	Cr8	heh, I'd like to blog about mine but what I'm putting together is a simulation of scenarious in which my company's software will explode horribly, to make a point
23:12	Cr8	*scenarios
23:12	seangrove	RickInAtlanta: Next month's SF ClojureScript meetup will be about Om, and we should have some good talks
23:13	RickInAtlanta	Cr8: in that case, don't blog, take a video!
23:13	bitemyapp	seangrove: next month's?
23:13	seangrove	Probably won't have the budget to record the talks, but might make good fodder for blogging
23:13	Cr8	that is actually the plan
23:13	bitemyapp	seangrove: is this month's still happening?
23:13	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, definitely
23:13	seangrove	Just planning things out
23:13	RickInAtlanta	seangrove: in SF there is a ClojureScript meetup, in addition to a Clojure one?
23:13	bitemyapp	seangrove: can't hurt.
23:13	bitemyapp	RickInAtlanta: there is now, wasn't before.
23:13	seangrove	RickInAtlanta: There are quite a few. Clojure Dojo, early/late Clojure meetups, and now a ClojureScript one
23:13	RickInAtlanta	Wow, awesome
23:14	seangrove	Prismatic's Clojure Community Night too
23:14	seangrove	Which bitemyapp gave a good talk about an as-yet unfinished project :)
23:14	Cr8	are these all under the same meetup group or should i be looking somewhere
23:14	RickInAtlanta	we have a monthly clojure meetup in atlanta. hoping to do a code dojo seeon
23:15	RickInAtlanta	soon
23:15	bitemyapp	Cr8: diff groups.
23:15	seangrove	bitemyapp: I just mention it because I'm upset about some metric stuff today
23:15	seangrove	"Oh, I wonder how that's being used. Oh, well, let me implement metrics and wait a day or two..."
23:16	arrdem	that's what I was gonna build... a tagged numerics library.
23:16	bitemyapp	seangrove: the stuff I'm learning with Fay for the presentation ties into it, if that's any comfort.
23:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: ಠ_ಠ
23:17	arrdem	bitemyapp: you keep using that face, and it still doesn't render in ERC.
23:17	seangrove	Renders in my erc
23:17	seangrove	ಠ_ಠ
23:17	noonian	the owl
23:18	Cr8	doesn't like my urxvt
23:18	bitemyapp	Cr8: so much for the u in urxvt :(
23:19	arrdem	yeah inicode in general is pretty suck under Arch...
23:19	Cr8	i think I just don't have a font w/ those chars, or my current font doesn't? dunno
23:19	Cr8	all my terminals and editors on my Arch box and my Mac are in PragmataPro
23:19	arrdem	Cr8: that's the primary cause of all this stuff...
23:26	Cr8	well shucks
23:26	Cr8	installed some fonts, now it works in chrome, still not urxvt
23:29	Cr8	okay, enough shaving that yak, back to cljs
23:34	quizdr	allow for me please to provide for you here some confirmation that, upon my return from lunch, i noticed gracing upon my screen, in little ol ERC, a most beautiful pair of lovely owl eyes
23:34	noprompt	ddellacosta: om is so awesome.
23:34	seangrove	ddellacosta: Come out for a week, it won't kill you, despite what bitemyapp might have told you ;)
23:34	ddellacosta	noprompt: yeah, went through and did a test proto-implementation of a section of current codebase in Om yesterday...really impressed
23:35	ddellacosta	seangrove: well, I'm angling to get there for Clojure/West, so you may see me soon. ;-)
23:35	seangrove	Come out twice
23:35	seangrove	Bring the wife
23:35	ddellacosta	seangrove: haha, don't have that kind of money right now, but we'll see, we'll see...
23:35	seangrove	Once she experiences winter like this, she'll never want to go back to Japan ;)
23:35	ddellacosta	ah, haha
23:36	ddellacosta	seangrove: I think she would definitely be psyched to be in the bay area, most definitely. We are talking about moving to North America soon, just depends on job stuff.
23:37	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: oh definitely visit the bay area, just do so before deciding to move here.
23:37	noprompt	ddellacosta: we've been working with it for the past week or so on something serious at work and it's been so much.
23:37	bitemyapp	seangrove: he's already married, he's fine for being in the bay area.
23:37	bitemyapp	;)
23:37	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: haha, is that the main problem? ;-)
23:37	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: main implies I can sift through the list in a reasonable amount of time.
23:38	ddellacosta	noprompt: yeah...I think it's just a matter of time before we add Om into our app in a serious way. We already are using a poor-man's version of it which I came up with independently, but which is really weak compared to Om. I just have to figure out some more details first and find the right place/way to introduce it.
23:39	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I definitely intend on visiting before any decisions are made...don't get me wrong.
23:40	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I'm considering making a decision to move before visiting, myself.
23:40	bitemyapp	so I can leave sooner.
23:41	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: you mean move away?
23:41	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: yeah, gtfo of dodge.
23:41	arrdem	doge....
23:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: I nearly spat on my monitor damn you.
23:41	seangrove	My doge coings doubled in value over the last week
23:41	ddellacosta	bitemyapp wants to gtfo of doge so he can have a doge
23:41	bitemyapp	(inc ddellacosta)
23:41	lazybot	⇒ 2
23:42	arrdem	ddellacosta: yeah it's kinda silly...
23:42	ddellacosta	heh
23:42	arrdem	ddellacosta: price is falling a little bit as #dogesled is fading but that spike..
23:42	ddellacosta	seangrove: you really have dogecoin?
23:42	deadghost	https://www.refheap.com/26038
23:42	ddellacosta	arrdem: I don't have any. I'm wholly out of the loop on this whole digital currency thing.
23:42	arrdem	ddellacosta: you don't?
23:42	deadghost	session/clear! doesn't seem to want to clear for me
23:42	ddellacosta	arrdem: nope. :-(
23:42	arrdem	seangrove: high five!
23:43	deadghost	figure I'm derping on something
23:43	seangrove	ddellacosta: Yeah, went out to dinner and refused to let the guy pay, so he transferred some dogecoin to me
23:43	xuser	arrdem: what's your hash rate?
23:43	seangrove	I also got bitcoin the same way :P
23:43	ddellacosta	seangrove: oh man, that is so perfect
23:43	arrdem	xuser: my gaming rig only has two nvidia cards, so best I can do is about 350KH/s
23:43	ddellacosta	welcome to northern california
23:43	ddellacosta	deadghost: what is the problem?
23:44	arrdem	xuser: I was playing with getting some more heavy duty mining gear for a while but the ecconomics don't make sense.
23:44	deadghost	session isn't getting cleared
23:44	seangrove	ddellacosta: I'm not super excited about people being able to give me access to money against my will. Makes paying for dinner/drinks cleanly way more difficult
23:44	ddellacosta	seangrove: does some obligation come with receiving it? Not trying to be snarky, seriously don't know
23:44	ddellacosta	seangrove: oh, from a business/expense kind of perspective?
23:44	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: seangrove is a wonderful person but very hard to pay for anything with him.
23:44	arrdem	ddellacosta: only the social one of you can't refuse to let someone pay for their drinks...
23:45	seangrove	ddellacosta: No, just my habit of paying for things
23:45	xuser	arrdem: depends on if you believe the coin value will do a big increase on the future
23:45	ddellacosta	seangrove: ah, I see...
23:45	bitemyapp	very hard.
23:45	seangrove	arrdem: Yeup
23:45	arrdem	xuser: I don't have two grand of faith in doge. litecoin maybe, but probably not.
23:45	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I think you need to plot ahead of time in order to pay for anything.
23:45	ddellacosta	seangrove: well...you could do it the Japanese way and be gracious by letter others pay so that they can assert their position above you. If you really want to get complicated. ;-)
23:46	seangrove	ddellacosta: Sure sure, flows with the culture ;)
23:46	xuser	arrdem: yeah, I think litecoin has a chance
23:46	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ha, good to know next time I try to buy him a drink.
23:46	arrdem	xuser: which is interesting because transitively dogecoin has a chance.
23:46	arrdem	xuser: BTC is just prohibitively expensive and hard to mine. people aren't really getting in at this point.
23:47	arrdem	xuser: because doge is such a joke I feel like it could in fact stand a reasonable chance because it feels more accessible.
23:47	arrdem	my 2D worth.
23:47	quizdr	time is probably better spent learning how to trade bitcoin than in mining it.
23:47	arrdem	currently near about 0.0000014 btc...
23:47	ddellacosta	deadghost: not sure what is up, but are you sure your log-out fn is getting called? app seems to be right...
23:47	arrdem	,(* 0.0000014 2 965.00)
23:47	clojurebot	0.002702
23:48	arrdem	dang. should a done 10D, then I woulda been right!
23:48	arrdem	20 because math.
23:49	arrdem	,(* 969.86 0.0192)
23:49	clojurebot	18.621312
23:49	arrdem	wtf I have ~$20 in doge.
23:49	quizdr	you can pay for drinks at bars here in singapore with bitcoin
23:50	arrdem	the real money in all of these things is automated trading because they are so volitile at the moment...
23:51	arrdem	seangrove: up to 210 satoshi/doge!
23:51	arrdem	where will the bubble burst...
23:51	deadghost	ddellacosta, yep definitely getting called
23:54	deadghost	I've been staring at it for a while, so I'm sure it's probably something stupid
23:55	ddellacosta	deadghost: I gotta be honest, I'm stumped--I have an app with pretty similar structure here, using noir.session as well, and the signout happens almost identically to what you have laid out. The one difference is that we are not explicitly setting the memory-store, but I'm not sure what difference that would make
23:55	ddellacosta	deadghost: how do you know it's not cleared out, btw.?
23:56	deadghost	chromium dev tools
23:56	deadghost	and FF cookies manager+
23:57	deadghost	well I guess I should have it display something to be triply sure
23:58	ddellacosta	deadghost: ..the cookie won't necessarily get wiped just because you've cleared the session. You still have a session, it's just empty. I would confirm by dumping something out of the session variables themselves.
23:59	xuser	arrdem: hard to know really