#clojure – 2014-01-19

2014-01-19

00:04	marcopolo`	ggherdov: the clj-webdriver is pretty nice. It's a layer on top of selenium
00:04	marcopolo`	You can also use phantomjs as a webdriver for headless stuff
00:09	ddellacosta	ggherdov: I've done some testing with clj-webdriver, it works reasonably well but is still young. Lately I've been considering moving to something wholly removed from clojure however, as this is so nice to work with: http://sebuilder.github.io/se-builder/
00:10	ddellacosta	ggherdov: for high-level acceptance tests it's pretty amazing. For everything else, I use clojure.test/clojurescript.test.
00:11	cark	is there some automated re-testing thing for clojurescript ?
00:11	ddellacosta	cark: what is re-testing?
00:12	dsrx	regexp-testing? :p
00:12	cark	i mean automated, when the code/compiled js changes
00:12	ddellacosta	cark: if you are using midje, autotest is built in. With clojure.test, you can use prism: https://github.com/aphyr/prism
00:12	cark	and that works with clojruescript ?
00:13	ddellacosta	cark: not sure about expectations, but maybe it has a similar mechanism. Re: clojurescript, I don't know--I haven't tried prism with clojurescript.
00:14	cark	i'll check it out
00:15	dsrx	cark: do you already have cljs tests, and you want to re-run them?
00:15	dsrx	er, auto-run them when your src files change
00:15	marcopolo`	cark: if you are using clojurescript.test you can add your tests to your cljsbuild
00:16	cark	not really, but i'm starting to feel i need some tests, and would not do that with some automated way to do it
00:16	cark	without*
00:16	cark	i usually do unit test only for low level data structure code
00:16	cark	"low level"
00:17	cark	we're still talking clojure =P
00:17	ggherdov	thanks ddellacosta
00:17	ddellacosta	ggherdov: np
00:18	ddellacosta	there is also https://github.com/reiddraper/simple-check which I haven't tried yet, I guess it is inspired by Haskell's quick-check.
00:18	ddellacosta	er, QuickCheck
00:18	ggherdov	bookmarked :)
00:20	cark	marcopolo`: yes looks like cljsbuild can help with the building of tests, maybe a short library that reloads the js could be done quite quickly..thanks
00:23	marcopolo`	reloads?
00:23	ggherdov	marcopolo`: forgot to thank you for your reply above -- doing it now :)
00:23	cark	marcopolo`: i don't want to launch a browser each time the code changes, i want to see the result as fast as possible
00:23	marcopolo`	ggherdov: no worries :) you're welcome
00:26	marcopolo`	cark: gotcha, I think it uses phantomjs
00:26	marcopolo`	ddellacosta: se-builder is really cool! thanks for that
00:26	marcopolo`	(inc ddellacosta)
00:26	lazybot	⇒ 1
00:27	ddellacosta	marcopolo`: your welcome. :-) I really love it, it saves me so much time...
00:27	ddellacosta	*you're
00:33	dsrx	hmmm i wonder if you can use karma with cljs
00:33	dsrx	easily, I mean
00:34	marcopolo`	karma?
00:34	jeremyheiler	dsrx: you'd at the very least need to swap out the jdbc lib for a js lib
00:34	dsrx	errrr
00:35	dsrx	i don't mean the clj library, i mean the js test runner :)
00:35	dsrx	sorry, very confusing
00:35	jeremyheiler	oh, hah
00:37	marcopolo`	is there such thing as cljsbuild hooks? Like a command to run after a build?
00:37	dsrx	marcopolo`: it runs your tests in a bunch of targets (local or remote browsers) and aggregates your results in a CLI, so very handy for CI builds
00:37	dsrx	or if you want to run tests on a mobile device for example
00:38	marcopolo`	hmmm, I'll look into it
00:44	egghead	dsrx: you can run arbitrary commands for your cljsbuild tests if you want
00:44	egghead	I was doing phantomjs for a while for example
00:45	egghead	https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/doc/TESTING.md
00:46	dsrx	oh hm nice, thanks egghead
00:47	marcopolo`	can you have it always run tests after a compile
01:33	arrdem	is there a good library for running agents on other hosts?
01:33	arrdem	I see technomancy's die-roboter, but that seems to be the only remotely capable thing
01:59	bitemyapp	arrdem: wryyyy
02:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: I realized what I had done only after hitting enter...
02:05	bitemyapp	"arrdem and agents": http://i.imgur.com/0OQRtBb.jpg
02:10	arrdem	bitemyapp: lolz
02:20	bitemyapp	oh MAN
02:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: React.js is practically made for a typed language!
02:21	bitemyapp	this is gonna be GREAT
02:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: if it's any cosolation we lost the two games you missed
02:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: tidehunter can just get out
02:25	bitemyapp	arrdem: tidehunter is good ban. Game is hard.
02:32	arrdem	evidently tonight is my night for exploring two year old libraries..
02:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: revise isn't two years old! You take that back!
02:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: I didn't start using that tonight now did I. that was last night
02:36	arrdem	screwit. I'm just gonna run my own remote worker solution.
02:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: the rabbit hole is widening to accommodate your sanity.
02:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: <od>you're insane</od>
02:41	bitemyapp	Documentation for allowed element and attribute types isn't clickable in React.js documentation. MFW
02:42	bitemyapp	However, when there is only a single child, this.props.children will be the single child component itself without the array wrapper. This saves an array allocation. -- Without sum types? you're braver than I thought guys.
02:48	arrdem	okay. do I go with an aleph http stream, or a raw TCP client/server...
02:50	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://avout.io/ http://blog.paralleluniverse.co/post/56519815799/distributed-actors-in-java-and-clojure
02:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: https://github.com/amitrathore/swarmiji http://martinsprogrammingblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/distributed-actors-in-clojure.html
02:51	marcopolo`	can you have it always run tests after a compile
02:52	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: http://www.gnu.org/software/make/
02:52	marcopolo`	that was weird, that was something i typed a while ago
02:53	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: compile:\nlein uberjar\n\ntest: compile\nlein test
02:53	marcopolo`	but thanks for the super fast reply
02:53	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: `make test`
02:56	arrdem	bitemyapp: thanks for the links, I find none of these to be incrementally simpler than rolling my own atop aleph.
02:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: really? I figured avout would be pretty straight-forward.
02:56	bitemyapp	OTOH, I guess some people would find zookeeper kinda hateful.
02:57	bitemyapp	oh my god why am I writing JS willingly?
02:57	xuser	you know you like it
02:57	arrdem	I mean the problem I'm trying to solve is bloody simple: one host has a queue of tasks to be done, others poll looking for work. I could encode this with a multi-host atom (why bother) or I could just have a server streaming the next piece of work with aleph.
02:57	bitemyapp	xuser: no, I like Fay
02:58	bitemyapp	xuser: I just like making toys for Fay.
02:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: how many machines are you working with?
02:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: probably six or eight...
02:58	bitemyapp	I'm surprised it isn't more worth your time to figure out something faster on a single machine.
02:58	clojurebot	Huh?
02:59	bitemyapp	clojurebot: fay \|is\| awesome and makes frontend more fun.
02:59	clojurebot	In Ordnung
02:59	bitemyapp	~fay
02:59	clojurebot	fay is awesome and makes frontend more fun.
02:59	bitemyapp	damn straight.
02:59	arrdem	lol
03:00	arrdem	hum... if my bound is fetching data from the website... I could probably pipeline this some more on one host...
03:01	bitemyapp	saw some people on identi.ca wringing their hands over the renaming of the nodejs binary from node to nodejs. I was puzzled why anybody cared if the lives of node programmers were convenient or not. I can only assume it means node users don't understand how symlinks work.
03:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: I didn't know that was your bound. I thought the db-client was choking via thread-pool.
03:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: if I'm using blocking writes, then my bound is that I can't do more than about 50 parallel page fetches before I get rate limited by the server.
03:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: that then maxes me at 50 workers waiting on DB transactions so that I don't blow the pool.
03:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: you should be able to run a lot more threads concurrently than 50.
03:03	arrdem	bingo, if I can prefetch the web data.
03:03	arrdem	which should be trivial...
03:04	bitemyapp	arrdem: so rejiggering it into a dataflow, then distributing?
03:04	bitemyapp	I'm just thinking of the losses and unreliablity from talking to other servers and cringing.
03:06	arrdem	yeah fuckit I'll just have a queue of prefetched pages and a worker thread fetching monotonically fast as it can.
03:07	bitemyapp	arrdem: I would be sorely tempted to start firing off futures with a counter just to see how long it took before it broke.
03:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: since it'll entertain you, lets see if I can kill this thing with run-async again...
03:09	bitemyapp	yisss. death.
03:14	arrdem	bitemyapp: I started failing to fetch pages before I pushed over the write queue.
03:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: wait what.
03:14	bitemyapp	I don't even
03:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: you are having the hardest time I've ever seen anybody have with this.
03:15	arrdem	okay. so here's the now vs then.
03:15	arrdem	now I have a threadpool of 50 workers.
03:15	bitemyapp	I'm actually kind of impressed, usually I'm the instability plague-bearer but it's a relief to know I've passed the curse onto somebody else.
03:15	arrdem	each one fetches its own HTML, parses it, destructures it and writes it to the db.
03:15	arrdem	the rate at which these guys run is mainly bounded by writing back to the database: a bound which is removed if I do async writes
03:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: how large is the content?
03:16	arrdem	bitemyapp: this means that I can massively out-rate my source with this model
03:16	bitemyapp	but in this scenario, why would you begin to fail to fetch web pages?
03:16	arrdem	the host begins to ratelimit me with 503s
03:17	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's your I/O on the db-side?
03:18	arrdem	bitemyapp: not an issue. until I hit the datasource's rate wall I hit over 1k W/s
03:18	bitemyapp	arrdem: so the problem is you're going too fast and overloading the data source?
03:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: correct. originally I was extremely slow and serial in my access to the websource. now I'm parallel and really friggin fast.
03:19	bitemyapp	you keep seeming to change what the actual problem is so I can't really get a clear picture of what's holding you up at the moment.
03:19	bitemyapp	okay.
03:19	bitemyapp	so rate-throttle
03:19	arrdem	working on it...
03:19	bitemyapp	assuming you do so, do any problems remain?
03:19	arrdem	we'll have to find out the hard way..
03:22	dissipate	anyone know if Luminus (http://www.luminusweb.net/) is a good web framework?
03:23	bitemyapp	dissipate: it's not a framework per se, more of a project template and way to learn standard Clojure web dev.
03:25	dissipate	bitemyapp, standard Clojure web dev as in Ring and Compojure?
03:25	bitemyapp	dissipate: yes
03:25	dissipate	bitemyapp, i see, cool.
03:25	TEttinger	Caribou actually is a framework, right?
03:25	TEttinger	don't know if it's good, haven't used it myself
03:26	bitemyapp	framework'ish.
03:26	bitemyapp	it has components.
03:35	logic_prog	I find it easier to use larger fonts (rather than high resolution fonts on a tiny screen). Now that the 17" mbp is no longer available, what is a good laptop to code on?
03:35	bitemyapp	logic_prog: dinkbook
03:35	logic_prog	cna't find it on google
03:35	bitemyapp	logic_prog: with noob-boob-tu installed
03:35	logic_prog	is this a joke ?
03:36	bitemyapp	logic_prog: don't make fun of me just because I have a code and a stuffed node.
03:36	logic_prog	if there was a distro named noob-boob-tu, I'd probably use it
03:36	bitemyapp	logic_prog: say it out loud, then all will make sense.
03:37	`cbp_	a thinkpad
03:37	`cbp_	hurry get them before they turn them into tablets too!
03:37	bitemyapp	logic_prog: yeah, that.
03:37	logic_prog	I don't see a 17" thinkbook
03:38	ddellacosta	TEttinger: read through a bunch of the docs now. Really seems like Rails built in Clojure.
03:38	logic_prog	ddellacosta: is this pedestal of halon ?
03:38	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: considering mr. smith works for a consultancy...
03:39	ddellacosta	logic_prog: what's halon?
03:39	logic_prog	halon = http://hoplon.io/
03:39	bitemyapp	logic_prog: good lord is that a stretched analogy. Don't ever do that again.
03:39	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: are you talking about this gent? https://github.com/noisesmith
03:39	bitemyapp	logic_prog: Orwell is spinning in his grave ya sadist.
03:40	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: possibly? probably? justin_smith in IRC.
03:40	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: oh, justin_smith is associated with Caribou? Didn't know that!
03:40	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
03:40	bitemyapp	~justin_smith
03:40	clojurebot	☃
03:40	bitemyapp	...
03:40	TEttinger	logic_prog, I have seen a bunch of QuadHD (better than 1080p) display laptops on techbargains lately
03:40	bitemyapp	~justin_smith
03:40	clojurebot	☃
03:40	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: so I thought.
03:40	TEttinger	ahha
03:41	ddellacosta	~bitemyapp
03:41	clojurebot	bitemyapp is unfuck your stack with monads!
03:41	ddellacosta	hahaha
03:41	ddellacosta	~ddellacosta
03:41	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:41	ddellacosta	what does that mean
03:42	bitemyapp	clojurebot: ddellacosta \|showers\| daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:42	clojurebot	Alles klar
03:42	ddellacosta	huh, seems rather rude
03:42	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: it means, "beg your pardon?"
03:42	ddellacosta	ah
03:42	bitemyapp	~ddellacosta
03:42	clojurebot	ddellacosta showers daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:42	ddellacosta	I just looked it up here: http://www.ireland-information.com/irishphrases.htm
03:43	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: why did you put \|showers\| between pipes like that?
03:43	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: oh, weird. usually it says "beg your pardon?" in Irish.
03:43	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: that verbs it.
03:43	bitemyapp	look.
03:43	bitemyapp	~ddellacosta
03:43	clojurebot	ddellacosta showers daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:43	bitemyapp	so that it doesn't have to be "is"
03:43	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ah, thanks
03:43	ddellacosta	I wonder if it can handle non-Latin characters
03:44	arrdem	bitemyapp: rate limited to 5 gets per second.. holding 115 writes/sec with no apparent memory leaking...
03:44	ddellacosta	clojurebot: ddellacosta 疲れた
03:44	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:44	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: gotta provide a verb.
03:44	ddellacosta	~ddellacosta
03:44	clojurebot	ddellacosta showers daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:44	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: SOV could really fuck you here.
03:44	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: no, it gave you an error again.
03:44	TEttinger	logic_prog: http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/385841 is very similar to the one I'm on now, but I'm not a normal typist (I do what is basically a blind hunt-and-peck on memorized key positions), so the keyboard quality may be different for you
03:44	ddellacosta	clojurebot: ddellacosta is super 疲れた
03:44	clojurebot	Alles klar
03:44	ddellacosta	~ddellacosta
03:44	clojurebot	ddellacosta showers daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:44	ddellacosta	nope
03:45	ddellacosta	so, what is confirmation that it got it?
03:45	TEttinger	it chooses a random one
03:45	logic_prog	TEttinger: I've tried an laptop like that before
03:45	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: in a foreign language.
03:45	logic_prog	I hate non-centered keyboards
03:45	TEttinger	~TEttinger
03:45	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
03:45	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: you just need to know the responses.
03:45	logic_prog	the "number pad" on a laptop seems weird
03:45	ddellacosta	hmm.
03:45	bitemyapp	clojurebot: TEttinger \|surprisingly\| is not a Stasi spy.
03:45	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
03:45	bitemyapp	^^ see.
03:45	TEttinger	clojurebot: TEttinger \|writes\| really hideous clojure
03:45	clojurebot	Ok.
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	ddellacosta	what
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	damn you.
03:46	TEttinger	heehee
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	clojurebot: TEttinger \|surprisingly\| is not a Stasi spy.
03:46	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	~TEttinger
03:46	clojurebot	TEttinger writes really hideous clojure
03:46	bitemyapp	I give up.
03:46	bitemyapp	Sorry for the noise.
03:46	bitemyapp	now I'm just grumpy it faulted with a false confirmation.
03:47	ddellacosta	haha
03:47	ddellacosta	ah well.
03:47	TEttinger	what noise, that was only 16 nick pings
03:47	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I've noticed searching for anything like "tired" in Japanese always brings up cute pictures.
03:47	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: seriously?
03:47	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: try it.
03:47	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I googled.
03:47	TEttinger	tired-chan
03:47	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I would guess that, searching for most anything in Japanese brings up 1) cute pics, 2) porn, 3) cute porn
03:47	ddellacosta	tired-chan, haha
03:47	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: makes sense.
03:48	ddellacosta	seriously, it's amazing what will bring up porn.
03:48	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I can do Katyusha in IRC pings if you like
03:48	logic_prog	clojurebot: logic_prog \|is\| awesome.
03:48	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
03:48	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: trying to look up rhyme nursery lyrics in Japanese must be really treacherous.
03:48	logic_prog	~logic_prog
03:48	clojurebot	logic_prog is awesome.
03:48	bitemyapp	~forget logic_prog is awesome.
03:48	clojurebot	In Ordnung
03:48	bitemyapp	~logic_prog
03:49	clojurebot	logic_prog is awesome.
03:49	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ha
03:49	bitemyapp	why do I even bother?
03:49	`cbp	u bad at this
03:49	logic_prog	ha
03:49	ddellacosta	clojurebot: clojurebot is broken
03:49	clojurebot	Roger.
03:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: I friggin wrote you an article on how to use forget
03:49	ddellacosta	~clojurebot
03:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: y u fail so hard
03:49	clojurebot	clojurebot will become skynet
03:49	TEttinger	clojurebot: bitemyapp \|licks\| batteries.
03:49	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
03:49	ddellacosta	damnit
03:49	bitemyapp	~bitemyapp
03:49	clojurebot	bitemyapp is it amuses me to mock other peoples' gods
03:49	bitemyapp	close enough.
03:49	ddellacosta	hahaha
03:49	logic_prog	clojurebot: logic_prog \|is\| so clojure much awesome such macro wow!
03:49	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
03:49	logic_prog	~logic_prog
03:49	clojurebot	logic_prog is awesome.
03:50	TEttinger	haha this is like 2 screens of spam
03:50	ddellacosta	oh, so you always need the pipes, I failed to grasp that
03:50	ddellacosta	clojurebot: ddellacosta \|is\| いない
03:50	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
03:50	ddellacosta	~ddellacosta
03:50	bitemyapp	~ddellacosta
03:50	clojurebot	ddellacosta is super 疲れた
03:50	clojurebot	ddellacosta showers daily and thus avoids zen stink.
03:50	ddellacosta	what
03:50	bitemyapp	perfect.
03:51	ddellacosta	heh
03:51	arrdem	bitemyapp: cranked it up to 128 workers with the same 5/1s rate limit on gets... doing about 275 writes/sec stable...
03:51	logic_prog	clojurebot: logic_prog \|so\| clojure much awesome such macro wow!
03:51	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
03:51	logic_prog	~logic_prog
03:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: "now you're thinking with pipes!"
03:51	clojurebot	logic_prog is so clojure much awesome such macro wow!
03:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: okay lets see if I can replicate that 400 write/second number..
03:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm greatly enjoying the vicarious mad-science.
03:53	arrdem	bitemyapp: we're all mad here
03:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: oh...I can think of madder.
03:53	logic_prog	clojurebot: pi \|is\| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679 82148 08651 32823 06647 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 66482 13393 60726 02491 41273 72458 70066 06315 58817 48815 20920 96282 92540 917
03:53	clojurebot	In Ordnung
03:53	logic_prog	~pi
03:53	clojurebot	pi is 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679 82148 08651 32823 06647 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 66482 13393 60726 02491 41273 72458 70066 06315 58817 48815 20920 96282 92540 917
03:53	logic_prog	in case anyone ever needs to use pi
03:53	ddellacosta	um
03:54	arrdem	lolz?
03:54	`cbp	sorry but im a tau person
03:54	arrdem	bitemyapp: halving the wrate limit only bumped it up a little bit... better throw more workers at it..
03:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: you're not doing this by C-c'ing and lein run'ing over and over are you?
03:55	arrdem	awright. 256 threads.. show me what you're built of Awaited...
03:55	bitemyapp	nice round number.
03:56	arrdem	captain, we have 500 writes/second
03:56	arrdem	arse I'm 503ing again.
03:56	bitemyapp	you made it mad.
03:56	arrdem	I should really re-design this around a queue which does incremental backoff on the rate limit..
03:57	arrdem	but mad science is way more fun
03:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: how long is it going to take at 300/second?
03:57	bitemyapp	back-pressure ist gut.
03:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: well... if nothing explodes I've already reached 2010 from 2008.
03:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: so it should finish overnight.
04:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/lGGWYtE.jpg
04:01	arrdem	bitemyapp: thank you for the 3am doge
04:01	arrdem	warms what I call a heart
04:03	arrdem	bitemyapp: well I've managed to kill something...
04:03	arrdem	not sure how to inspect the JVM internal contension however...
04:04	bitemyapp	arrdem: a profiler.
04:04	arrdem	yeah.... lemme switch back to synchronous writes and see if this goes away...
04:18	arrdem	bitemyapp: http://i.imgur.com/xg7HaX8.jpg
04:18	arrdem	I just lost it
04:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: laft.
04:19	bitemyapp	aut lawd.
04:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: also applicable: Haskell, Erlang.
04:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: heh. yeah it's definitely something with run-async.
04:21	ddellacosta	arrdem: yah, a functional language would have packed more punch there, but still, quite funny
04:22	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: agree.
04:25	arrdem	bitemyapp: RethinkDB wins forever. I just added a replica while writing and nothing broke.
04:29	bitemyapp	arrdem: :)
04:40	quizdr	Two threads walk into a bar. The barkeeper looks up and yells, "hey, I want don't any conditions race like time last!"
04:44	stirfoo	woohoo! 4 hours later I got glDrawElements to work
04:44	stirfoo	had to fish around the LWJGL source
04:44	quizdr	congrats stirfoo i know how messy gl can be
04:45	stirfoo	aye, but wrapping gl with clojure is kinda fun
04:46	cark	stirfoo: so what was the trouble ?
04:46	stirfoo	endiannessness for one, and I had to flip the buffer
04:46	cark	huh
04:46	cark	are you on mac ?
04:47	stirfoo	byte ordering
04:47	stirfoo	linux
04:47	cark	strange
04:47	stirfoo	actually, no I didn't have to flip the buffer, but lwjgl seems to requre that, given some examples I found
04:48	stirfoo	https://github.com/LWJGL/lwjgl/blob/master/src/java/org/lwjgl/BufferUtils.java
04:49	stirfoo	that first createByteBuffer fn did the trick, I wasn't calling order
04:51	stirfoo	are float, double, etc sizes always fixed in Java? even for 32bit vs 64bit operating systems?
04:51	cark	i think so yes
04:53	cark	i'm currently reviewing some old gl2 java code i have, i don't see any fliping or "native" anywhere
04:54	stirfoo	(.flip buf) or (.rewind buf)
04:55	cark	ohwell, that'll remain a mystery to me =)
04:55	stirfoo	I need to experiment with java.nio.*Buffer more
04:56	cark	you need to go to later opengl versions, there is so much oportunity for speed
04:57	domino14	i created a utils/vector_math.clj in my current directory
04:57	stirfoo	well, actually for rendering meshes, glDrawElements is pretty fast
04:57	domino14	(ns euler-144 (:require [utils.vector_math :refer [magnitude dot cos-theta euclidean-distance]]))
04:57	cark	stirfoo: but you'll have to construc your buffer each time
04:58	domino14	what is wrong with that? it tells me Exception No namespace: utils.vector_math clojure.core/refer (core.clj:3832)
04:58	stirfoo	cark: true
04:59	cark	stirfoo: with later versions you send your buffers (separated by use like texture coords or vertex position etc) to the gpu, then only update the ones that change each frame
04:59	cark	domino14: what's your directory structure ?
04:59	domino14	i have a folder named utils and in it a file named vector_math.clj
05:00	domino14	and i'm in the same directory as the utils folder
05:00	stirfoo	- not _ ?
05:00	stirfoo	@ domino14
05:00	domino14	file names should have dashes too?
05:00	cark	your ns form should say vector-math
05:01	cark	don't change the file name
05:01	stirfoo	module names have _, references to those have -
05:01	domino14	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: utils.vector-math
05:01	domino14	do i need to put anything special in my utils/vector_math.clj file?
05:02	cark	azre you using lein ?
05:02	cark	i mean, how are you compiling ?
05:03	cark	or launching the repl
05:05	domino14	got it, i needed to (ns utils.vector-math) in my vector_math.clj file
05:05	domino14	yes was using lein exec plugin
05:05	domino14	nite nite
05:05	cark	ahh :)
05:06	stirfoo	nite cark, maybe you can talk me out of the 90's with opengl =)
05:06	stirfoo	thanks for the suggestions
05:06	cark	stirfoo: gnight
05:38	alew	what's up with hoplon?
05:57	Glenjamin	just heard Rich Hickey pronounce "EDN" as "eden" instead of "E-D-N" - is that common?
06:05	lvh	alew: I don't know. I want to like it, I guess, but there's not enough docs for me to consider it :)
06:23	quizdr	why does (doc letfn) say it is a special form, when the source shows it as a macro?
06:25	Raynes	&(doc letfn)
06:25	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([fnspecs & body]); fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+) Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body."
06:26	quizdr	,(doc letfn
06:26	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
06:26	quizdr	,(doc letfn)
06:26	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+) Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body."
06:26	quizdr	hm on mine it shows it as a Special Form
06:26	Raynes	Eh, it's because they have different doc macros.
06:27	Raynes	The source does not show it as a macro.
06:27	Raynes	I mean, it does
06:27	Raynes	But it's :special-form true
06:27	quizdr	so letfn is not a special form, it's a macro? the metadata is there to say it is a special form when it really isn't? why would that be?
06:28	Raynes	Because it translates directly to a special form.
06:28	Raynes	That's the only reason I can think of/
06:28	quizdr	what is let* and letfn* and why are they not in the core API docs?
06:28	quizdr	i see them all the time in source
06:28	Raynes	They
06:32	Raynes	Damn keyboard
06:32	Raynes	I'm at a terrible angle. :p
06:32	quizdr	ha i was trying to figure out what you meant
06:32	Raynes	quizdr: They are the actual special forms. If you look at the source for the macros, they're very simple wrappers around them.
06:32	Raynes	You can't associate docs with a special form
06:32	Raynes	So if the macros weren't there, there wouldn't be any documentation to say they are special forms, etc.
06:33	Raynes	It makes sense to just pretend that the macros are special forms, because it makes no practical difference.
06:33	Raynes	Macros without the special forms couldn't do what the special forms do. As such, they aren't just normal macros.
06:33	Raynes	They're specifically the only way to do certain things
06:34	quizdr	are you referring to let* and letfn* now, or to letfn.
06:34	Raynes	They are quite special in that regard.
06:34	Raynes	The macros are the leftfn, let, etc.
06:34	Raynes	The special forms are letfn, let
06:34	quizdr	ah, ok.
06:35	quizdr	so the docs for letfn would essentially be the same docs as for letfn*
06:35	Raynes	Yes. But you have no real reason to use letfn* directly
06:41	quizdr	and also no reason to use let* i'd image, right?
06:41	quizdr	*imagine
06:50	quizdr	i guess letfn is similar to common lisps "labels"
06:54	AeroNotix	how do I typespec something which is a generic type?
06:54	AeroNotix	i.e. ArrayList<T> in java
06:58	cark	AeroNotix: you don't ... due to type erasure ArrayList<T> is just ArrayList
06:59	AeroNotix	that's what I was worried about
06:59	cark	why ? just use ArrayList and you're good
06:59	AeroNotix	well, I wanted mo' documentation really
07:00	khaled	o/
08:20	rurumate	,#=(inc 1)
08:20	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
08:28	rurumate	will (defn add5 [n] (+ #=(+ 4 1) n)) have better performance than (defn add5 [n] (+ (+ 4 1) n)) ?
08:28	corecode	benchmark it?
08:29	rurumate	corecode: benchmarks seem to show that the performance is the same, but I cannot benchmark every time I calculate a constant in my code
08:30	rurumate	the question is, is the compiler smart enough to replace closed expressions with constants?
08:30	rurumate	i.e. expressions with no free variables, like (+ 4 1)
08:32	funkotron	rurumate: how does the compiler know which expressions are closed?
08:33	hyPiRion	funkotron: by checking whether they have any free variables
08:34	hyPiRion	rurumate: I think you effectively will get the same performance, due to JIT optimisation
08:36	rurumate	yes.. but it would be nice to be sure about these things. For instance, is it still true on openjdk? I was hoping the clojure compiler would just evaluate closed expressions
08:38	rurumate	that's why I was trying =# but it seems its behaviour depends on the value of read-eval, which makes it less predictable
09:06	ddellacosta	is java.lang.Math/log the idiomatic way to do logarithmic calculations?
09:07	ddellacosta	oh, I see that's the natural log
09:36	jonathanj	so the analyzed-patients function in this section seems to have an error: http://www.braveclojure.com/functional-programming/#2__Living_with_Immutable_Data_Structures
09:37	jonathanj	`analyzed?` is not defined anywhere
09:37	jonathanj	what should that code read instead?
09:40	jonathanj	oh, i think that's just some not-implemented-here function
09:40	insamniac	That's what I'm guessing after looking at it..
09:40	insamniac	not a function you can just paste into your repl
09:42	jonathanj	looking at the Javascript example, what would be a reasonable implementation of `analyzed?`? (defn analyzed? [patient] (:analyzed patient))
09:42	jonathanj	perhaps?
10:32	Profpatsch	Is there something like cond for maps, taking only specified keys out of the map?
10:33	Profpatsch	I tried (condp contains? the-map :foo "result" :bar "other result") but contains takes the arguments in the wrong order for that.
10:37	pmlarocque	(apply dissoc {:foo 1, :bar 2, :baz 3} [:foo :bar]) ?
10:37	dnolen	Profpatsch: just write a swap helper that flips the contains? argument order
10:38	dnolen	(condp (swap contains?) the-map ...)
10:39	Profpatsch	Oh, right, I could do that.
10:39	Profpatsch	#(contains %2 %1) ?
10:39	dnolen	Profpatsch: yep
10:39	Profpatsch	Man, this is high-level stuff…
10:39	Profpatsch	Coming from Java and Python land.
10:40	Profpatsch	A little elisp, but not too functional.
10:40	dnolen	Profpatsch: you could do it in Python, but being so functional is not generally considered idiomatic I think.
10:41	Profpatsch	I noticed half of my Python code was list expressions, so the question was: Why not write in a functional language in the first place? :)
10:43	Profpatsch	Still, you can’t replace Python for Gtk3 stuff. And I don’t know Haskell yet.
10:44	Profpatsch	And I don’t know if doing WIMP monad-style is such a great idea.
10:46	Profpatsch	Is there any project that aims for a functional wrapper around the java bindings of Gtk?
11:08	Profpatsch	So, this is the best I came up with: (condp #(get %2 %1) {:foo 42} :foo :>> identity) returns 42.
11:09	Profpatsch	Is there an easier way to do it?
11:10	Profpatsch	This is for side-effects.
11:12	Profpatsch	Oh, condp is short circuiting, so it doesn’t make much sense. oO
11:12	Bronsa	Profpatsch: what about ##(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4} [:a :d])
11:12	lazybot	⇒ {:d 4, :a 1}
11:14	Profpatsch	I guess that makes more sense, with a map afterwards. Yeah, thought in the wrong direction.
11:15	Bronsa	Profpatsch: if you want to execute side effects on specific keys on a map you could so something like
11:15	Bronsa	(mapv (fn [[k v]] (({:b println} k identity) v)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
11:15	Bronsa	(mapv (fn [[k v]] (({:b println} k identity) v)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})a,
11:15	Bronsa	,(mapv (fn [[k v]] (({:b println} k identity) v)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
11:15	clojurebot	2\n[1 3 nil]
11:16	Bronsa	or something similar with a doseq
11:16	Bronsa	,(doseq [[k v] {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :let [f ({:b println} k)] :when f] (f v))
11:16	clojurebot	2\n
11:40	jita	is there any web framework in clojure which is equivalent to django in python ?
11:41	lvh	jita: If by that you mean "comes with everything" then no
11:41	lvh	ring is the standard thing, but it's fairly low level. people have built higher level things on top of that.
11:41	dnolen	jita: probably caribou, http://let-caribou.in
11:42	lvh	very few of them tell you how to do everything (templating, routing, orm...) as django does; no major ones I know of
11:42	dnolen	lvh: caribou does a lot of stuff, it's very Django/Rails-eseque
11:42	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I had a quick play with t.a.j yesterday. Stunning what you've done, very impressive.
11:42	jita	lvh: I am looking for rapid web development framework
11:42	dnolen	jita: it's not quite as fancy as Django, but that's a good thing IMO
11:43	jita	dnolen: i will have a look, thanks for suggestion
11:43	dnolen	jita: at some point Pedestal might offer a more complete solution too but it's in flux.
11:44	jita	ok thanks
11:44	Bronsa	ambrosebs: thanks! it's really close to a stable release
11:44	ambrosebs	Bronsa: great!
12:06	l1x	jita: Ring / composure gives you enough to get started there plenty of templating libs as well
12:07	l1x	and i like safari's spellchecker
12:08	jita	ok thanks
12:08	jita	Can someone recommend me a good book for clojure too ?
12:16	Profpatsch	What’s the difference between put! and >!?
12:17	Profpatsch	(let [c (chan)] (put! c 4) (go (.log js/console (<! c)))) does work as expected.
12:18	Profpatsch	I’d expect (let … (go (>! c 4) (.log … (<! c))) to have the same effect, but it doesn’t! Why is that?
12:19	Profpatsch	I just hope dnolen is still here. :)
12:20	dnolen	Profpatsch: that's not going to work. I suggest reading up on core.async a bit more before diving into it
12:20	dnolen	Profpatsch: there's a good video from the Conj as well one that I did
12:20	dnolen	Profpatsch: short story, >! <! are blocking operations
12:20	dnolen	jita: O'Reilly book is good
12:21	Profpatsch	Okay, gonna do that. I did read all that stuff and watch your video, but I always make the mistake of not directly trying out what I heard. So I forget most of it again. ;(
12:21	Profpatsch	You’re an entertaining speaker btw.
12:21	dnolen	Profpatsch: thx
12:21	jita	dnolen: is it better than "programming clojure"
12:21	dnolen	jita: IMO yes
12:22	noonian	that would work if each blocking op was in a different go block right?
12:22	dnolen	noonian: that is correct
12:22	noonian	thanks
12:23	jita	dnolen: thanks
12:31	Profpatsch	dnolen: @blocking operators: I got that, but why would (>! c 4) block the go thread? It puts a value on c and then <! immediately takes it again. So why would anything block?
12:31	dnolen	Profpatsch: what you just said is contradictory :)
12:32	dnolen	Profpatsch: >! <! are blocking operations plain and simple. Everything falls out of that.
12:32	bbloom	Profpatsch: you can only put things in a buffer, if there is no buffer, somebody has to take it from you
12:32	bbloom	Profpatsch: So when unbuffered >! and <! block until the sender and receiver are blocking together
12:33	Profpatsch	Ohhh, I get it. I somehow assumed that (chan) creates a buffer with one slot.
12:33	Profpatsch	But of course it doesn’t.
12:33	noonian	execution never reaches the call to read because the call to put blocks
12:35	Profpatsch	Do blocking channels take any cycels btw? I guess they have to loop internally to see new input, right?
12:35	Profpatsch	*cycles
12:35	Profpatsch	* use any cicles. Ugh.
12:36	Profpatsch	Okay, now I did a mistake in every correction. What’s going on with me‽
13:20	RickInAtlanta	I am reading the reasoned schemer right now, and in chapter 2 they have a function eqo. does anyone know the core.logic equivelant?
13:21	insamniac	I bet dnolen does!
13:22	insamniac	I actually just bought that book too.
13:22	dnolen	RickInAtlanta: I don't think so, but easy enough to implement. I thought eqo was just unification anyhow
13:22	RickInAtlanta	ok, thanks. I will play with it some
13:22	insamniac	dnolen should get a cut from The Reasoned Schemer sales.
13:24	RickInAtlanta	I should have turned the page
13:24	RickInAtlanta	(defn eqo (fn [x y] (== x y)))
13:26	ior3k	dnolen: sorry if someone has asked this of you already... do you use light table as your primary development environment?
13:32	ior3k	s/of //. I knew there was something wrong with that...
13:32	dnolen	ior3k: no not yet, but it's pretty compelling. support for plugin development now is pretty rough, I think when those issues get resolved I think LT will really take off.
13:33	RickInAtlanta	dnolen: did you see Chris's tweets about the other language plugins being written
13:33	dnolen	RickInAtlanta: yes I follow ibdknox
13:34	RickInAtlanta	It was cool to see Don Syme's tween about F# support
13:35	ior3k	dnolen: thanks. It felt a bit rough to me, and seems to be single window centric, so I'll wait a bit more before taking another look
13:35	dnolen	ior3k: I use Emacs so single window doesn't really bother me much
13:36	dnolen	RickInAtlanta: yes it was
13:36	ior3k	dnolen: I use emacs too, but I use multiple frames (tiling wm)
13:37	dnolen	ior3k: tabsets accomplish the same thing, but there's isn't vertical tabset support yet
13:37	dnolen	in LT
13:37	dnolen	ior3k: oh sorry multiple frames
13:37	dnolen	ior3k: yeah got it
13:38	ior3k	dnolen: yeah sorry about the interchanging of terms :)
13:41	l1x	jita: there are 3 or 4 clojure books out there, i have read all of them, and each one is good for different things
13:42	jita	l1x: which one do you recommend for a beginner in functional language?
13:42	l1x	huh, great question
13:42	RickInAtlanta	thx again for help
13:42	RickInAtlanta	gotta run
13:47	l1x	clojure is kind of two fold story, there is the Java/JVM part and there is the LISP part, if you want to learn how to LISP I would recommend to read http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ if you learn how to utilize the JVM best from Clojure probably Programming Clojure (Halloway & Bedra), if you want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes with Clojure than you should
13:47	l1x	read "The Joy of Clojure"
13:48	l1x	there is the 3rd book, "Clojure Programming" that is not my favorite book, because the examples are kind of cryptic and hard to understand, but it covers everything, you can use it sort of like a reference book
13:49	Profpatsch	How would you do unique IDs?
13:50	bbloom	Profpatsch: depends on what you mean by "unique"
13:50	bbloom	unique globally? per process? per thread?
13:51	Profpatsch	Ah, right. Easiest would be to use UUIDs, but there’s no function for it (at least not in cljs).
13:51	Profpatsch	I thought something like an auto-incrementing value would suffice. But: atom, ref or something else?
13:52	bbloom	Profpatsch: uuid only makes sense if you need global uniqueness
13:52	bbloom	if you're doing cljs, there is only really one thread anyway, so process unique == thread unique
13:52	bbloom	i'd probably just use an atom with a number in it
13:52	Profpatsch	Well, since they are not very costly to generate, I tend to use them everywhere.
13:53	Profpatsch	So (def ^:private id-count (atom))?
13:53	bbloom	Profpatsch: the earmuffs usually mean :dynamic
13:53	bbloom	Profpatsch: the atom function takes an initial value argument
13:53	Profpatsch	Oh, right, the def is not changing, the atom is.
13:53	bbloom	but yeah, that's one solution
13:54	bbloom	you can (swap! id-count inc) and use the return value from that
13:54	Profpatsch	Yep.
13:54	Profpatsch	Thanks, got it.
14:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: this is why you don't let me do mad science.... I managed to push it to 1.1K writes/sec...
14:36	jita	Which IDE/text editor is mostly preferred for clojure development ?
14:37	arrdem	jita: emacs
14:38	jita	arrdem: can one do professional coding using a basic text editor like sublime text ?
14:38	bbloom	jita: choose whatever you're most comfortable with while learning the language. you don't want to be learning a language and an editor at the same time
14:39	arrdem	jita: bbloom gives good advice here. you can of course use another text editor. I mention Emacs only because it has in my experience the best REPL integration. it is by no means the only editor therewith however.
14:39	jita	bbloom: I am familiar with Sublime text and it has good support for python too, it has linter and syntax highlights for python, dont know about clojure though
14:39	Glenjamin	it can mostly highlight clojure
14:39	Profpatsch	jita: If you want to learn the language I very much advise you to use LightTable.
14:39	arrdem	jita: I didn't pick up Emacs until long after I had come to Clojure, so I cannot comment on learning both at once.
14:39	lvh	Emacs is pretty great as a basic text editor too, though; especially if you leave menu bars on
14:40	lvh	maybe paredit is kinda weird.
14:40	bbloom	jita: if you're used to what i'd call "modern graphical osx text editors" then you will probably find light table to be highly approachable & has great clojure support
14:40	bbloom	jita: otherwise, i'd recommend just using what you know and copy/pasting in to your repl until you get the hang of the basics
14:41	jita	thanks a lot for suggestions, much appreciated. I will definitely look into LightTable
14:41	Profpatsch	jita: I am a heavy Vim and Emacs user and tried LightTable only a few days ago (after integrating Clojure into Emacs as good as possible) and it comletely blew me away.
14:42	jita	Profpatsch: downloading :)
14:42	Profpatsch	jita: bbloom The very best tool for learning Clojure quickly is the Instarepl in LightTable imho.
14:42	Profpatsch	You don’t even have to bother pasting into a repl, it just shows the flow of data right beside your sexps.
14:43	jita	Profpatsch: will definitely check it out, thanks
14:44	Profpatsch	jita: Oh, and you’ll definitely want to keep this open in your browser: http://jafingerhut.github.io/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/cheatsheet-tiptip-cdocs-summary.html
14:45	jita	ok ty
14:45	Profpatsch	jita: Best served downloaded as a local file. ;)
14:45	cark	jita: by using a simple text editor with no repl support (or instarepl), you might miss out what's one of clojure main selling points
14:47	jita	I wonder if anyone tried this http://sublimerepl.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ ?
14:48	jita	its mentioned here too http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+With+Sublime+Text+2
14:48	Notte	Hi, would anyone tell me why when i load this source file with (load-file ...) from repl, it loads just the last function, please ? http://hastebin.com/dolosawifi.lisp
14:49	jita	I am not sure how it would stack against LightTable though
14:49	cark	notte : i'm not sure if anyone ever uses load-file
14:50	Notte	cark: how should i load a code from a file within the repl?
14:50	cark	with require or use
14:51	cark	so in this case you would type (require 'xi-ranker.core) , then change namespace to it in order to start playing with it
14:52	cark	err i mean (require '(blah.blah))
14:52	Notte	cark: i was missing the change of namespace. Thank you so much :)
14:52	cark	=)
15:33	logic_prog	given a list, how do I get a list of all items in the list that appears atpeast twice ?
15:34	danneu	logic_prog: frequencies and filter?
15:34	logic_prog	damn, frequenies
15:34	logic_prog	that's what I was loking for
15:34	Profpatsch	Huh, where is the difference between (conj {:a 1} {:a 42 :b 1}) and (into {:a 1} {:a 42 :b 1})? oO
15:35	danneu	Profpatsch: id look at the source but i think into uses transients and is just a reduce of conjs
15:41	Profpatsch	danneu: Why does conj then behave like into for maps? vec: [2 4] -> [2 4 [1 3]] list: '(2 4) -> '((1 3) 2 4) map: {2 "a", 4 "b"} -> {1 "c" 2 "a" 3 "d" 4 "b"}
15:46	bbloom	Profpatsch: think of maps as sets of key value pairs
15:46	bbloom	,(conj {} [5 10 15]) ; this is nonsense
15:46	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Vector arg to map conj must be a pair>
15:47	Profpatsch	bbloom: Oh, right.
15:47	bbloom	Profpatsch: also worth noting, into is basically just (reduce conj to from)
15:47	Profpatsch	So it doesn’t matter which one I use for maps? I think into sounds more expressive.
15:48	Profpatsch	Of course that reduce is another function call.
15:48	bbloom	into operates on a "from" collection
15:48	Wild_Cat	Profpatsch: I have strong doubts you'll notice the performance hit :p
15:49	bbloom	it's a different thing from conj or assoc which operate on to-be-added elements directly
15:49	bbloom	what does "sounds more expressive" even mean?
15:50	Profpatsch	Well, it says exactly what I want to do. Merge these values into the other map.
15:50	bbloom	it's (into dest-coll src-coll) vs (conj dest-coll x y z)
15:50	Profpatsch	While with conj you have to first know that conj does that with maps (of course it’s obvious once you think hard ;) ).
15:51	bbloom	Profpatsch: if you want to operate on maps concretely, use assoc
15:51	bbloom	conj is intentionally polymorphic
15:51	Profpatsch	But with assoc I first need the keys and values separately.
15:51	Profpatsch	I already have them in another map.
15:52	Profpatsch	So it’s either conj or into.
15:52	cark	bbloom: doesn't into use transients underneath ?
15:52	bbloom	cark: yes
15:52	bbloom	cark: hence the "basically" qualifier
15:52	bbloom	Profpatsch: you didn't say you had a particular use case, you asked for a comparison. can't expect me to read your mind :-)
15:52	cark	qo into is the best solution
15:52	cark	so*
15:53	cark	Profpatsch: if you have 2 maps, you can merge too
15:53	Profpatsch	bbloom: Of course. :)
15:54	Profpatsch	cark: So there are three operations that do the same? oO
15:54	cark	they don't do the same think, only in the case of maps
15:54	cark	thing*
15:54	Profpatsch	Yep.
15:54	cark	conj, adds an item to a collection
15:55	cark	into adds multiple items to a collection, using transients and like conj is polymorphic
15:55	cark	and merge is for maps
15:55	cark	and sets maybe ...
15:55	cark	hehe
15:55	bbloom	just maps
15:55	cark	ah ok =)
15:55	cark	wasn't sure naymore
15:55	bbloom	merge also handles nil arguments and treats them as empty maps
15:56	Profpatsch	So merge is the best for maps.
15:56	bbloom	,(merge nil {:x 1} nil {:y 2} nil {:x 3})
15:56	clojurebot	{:y 2, :x 3}
15:56	Profpatsch	,(into {} {:x 1} nil)
15:56	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core/into>
15:56	bbloom	into is not variadic
15:56	cark	Profpatsch: i think it should be, but last time i checked it was a fairly naive implementation
15:57	bbloom	yeah, merge's implementation does not take advantage of transients
15:57	cark	wasn't checking for smallest map before doing the merging, and didn't use transients
15:57	bbloom	into is idiomatic as well
15:57	bbloom	cark: it shouldn't check for the smallest map b/c it assumes left-to-right overrides
15:57	cark	bbloom: ah indeed
15:57	Profpatsch	Fascinating. So there is still room for improvement in the core I see.
15:58	bbloom	Profpatsch: isn't that a fact of anything?
15:58	Profpatsch	Of course, but for some things more than for others. ;)
15:59	cark	Profpatsch: i think it comes down to the fact merge was implemented long before transients existed
15:59	pyrtsa	,(into {} (concat {:x 1} nil))
15:59	clojurebot	{:x 1}
15:59	cark	also there a cost (O(1) but still) to converting to transient
15:59	pyrtsa	,(into {} (concat {:x 1} nil {:y 2}))
15:59	clojurebot	{:x 1, :y 2}
16:00	cark	there is*
16:02	bbloom	cark: yeah, transients generally don't help below a certain number of conj! operations
16:02	bbloom	probably somewhere < 15 or so
16:02	bbloom	they probably even start to hurt further below that
16:02	bbloom	haven't benchmarked it myself though, so not sure
16:04	cark	bbloom: so maybe it's for the best that merge is like it is
16:04	cark	most of the time, maps are small
16:05	bbloom	cark: except for when they are big :-P
16:05	bbloom	anyway, it's the transient overhead isn't worrying about, it's very small and constant
16:05	cark	bbloom: but there can't be as many since they're so big =)
16:05	cark	bbloom: if the constant time is 6 hours, it's still a worry
16:06	bbloom	cark: the question is do you want to pay O(numMaps) transient cost or O(numElements) conj cost?
16:06	Profpatsch	cark: bbloom: You could always make the function variadic and use transients at x upwards
16:06	bbloom	Profpatsch: that won't help if you have ONE argument and it's a large collection to copy from
16:07	Notte	Why does this code give me an error? http://hastebin.com/gosurokaha.coffee
16:07	Profpatsch	bbloom: Or measure the size and use that to decide?
16:07	Notte	The file is readable
16:07	bbloom	Profpatsch: what if you have an uncounted source collection? like a lazy seq, which is the usual case
16:08	pyrtsa	Notte: Because map is lazy.
16:08	bbloom	Profpatsch: turns out, this shit is hard. so the simpler thing that is generally fast enough is the right decision
16:08	pyrtsa	Notte: Wrap it in a doall or use mapv instead.
16:08	bbloom	Profpatsch: if it's not fast enough, copy paste the source code & make it do what you need. but don't do that until your thing is working correctly
16:08	Profpatsch	bbloom: At least the map to append to must be realized.
16:08	cark	Profpatsch: if you have special needs, make a function and do it yourself, that's no rocket science anyways =)
16:08	pyrtsa	Laziness implies that the line-seq is consumed later than the with-open block closes.
16:08	Notte	pyrtsa: ok, thanks.
16:09	bbloom	Profpatsch: but if you need to realize it to count it, you need to hold on to it b/c you can't realize it again w/o side effects being an issue, so you need linear memory instead of constant memory
16:09	Profpatsch	bbloom: cark Nah, not anyway near that. I was just speculating about one could improve it.
16:09	Profpatsch	*about how one
16:09	cark	Profpatsch: this discussion made me change my mind about the merge implementation, i think it is as it should be now, thanks both
16:10	pyrtsa	bbloom: Reminder that you don't have to consume the whole sequence to find out if its size is greater than a given threshold. ;)
16:10	Profpatsch	My respect for Rich is rising with everything I learn.
16:11	bbloom	pyrtsa: yes, this is true. but then you have to pay THAT constant cost, when you might as well have just paid the constant cost to produce the transient
16:11	pyrtsa	Sure.
16:11	bbloom	point is, dumb thing works & is generally fast enough: do that :-P
16:11	pyrtsa	And makes sense that both ways are available when the programmer knows which way to go.
16:11	Profpatsch	bbloom: But you don’t have to realize any values at all. You just have to count hash values.p
16:12	Profpatsch	But yeah, until one has done lots of benchmarks there is no sense in improving it.
16:12	clojurebot	In Ordnung
16:12	bbloom	Profpatsch: i have no idea what you're talking about
16:13	Profpatsch	bbloom: About the existing map. Its size matters, too.
16:13	bbloom	in order to count (even partially count) a sequence (the common case in a pipeline) you need to realize the head N items of that sequence
16:13	Profpatsch	bbloom: I’d suspect that this map is way bigger than the one merged into it in most cases (with an entity-model you could have thousands of elements in it).
16:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: how'd you reach 1.1k?
16:14	arrdem	bitemyapp: I threw two more hosts at the problem.
16:14	Profpatsch	bbloom: But a map is a collection, not a sequence. ;)
16:14	bbloom	,(coll? (seq [5 10 15]))
16:14	clojurebot	true
16:15	bbloom	Profpatsch: a sequence is a collection
16:15	Profpatsch	bbloom: I know, but merge only accepts maps as first argument.
16:15	bbloom	Profpatsch: oh, i see what you're getting at. you're saying that merge can assume the arguments are "counted?"
16:16	bbloom	Profpatsch: but the issue is the count of the not-first arguments:
16:16	bbloom	,(merge {:x 1} (seq {:y 2 :z 3}))
16:16	clojurebot	{:y 2, :z 3, :x 1}
16:16	Profpatsch	bbloom: Since all args to merge have to be maps, I’d think they should be easily countable.
16:17	bbloom	Profpatsch: see above ^^ your assumption is incorrect
16:17	bbloom	seqs are perfectly fine arguments to merge
16:17	Profpatsch	Oh, that’s fascinating. Then the docs are wrong.
16:17	Profpatsch	Or at least not general. ;)
16:18	Profpatsch	.(doc merge)
16:18	hiredman	yeah, that is weird, you used to have to apply merge
16:18	Profpatsch	,(doc merge)
16:18	clojurebot	"([& maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping from the latter (left-to-right) will be the mapping in the result."
16:18	Profpatsch	Let’s git blame. :)
16:18	bbloom	it might be abusing an implementation detail to pass a seq instead of a map
16:18	bbloom	but it's unlikely to change now
16:18	bbloom	there are lots of things that use seqs of pairs and treats them like maps
16:20	hiredman	ah, that makes sense, of course merge is just calling seq on the passed in maps anyway
16:20	bbloom	yup
16:21	Profpatsch	(when (some identity maps)
16:21	Profpatsch	(reduce1 #(conj (or %1 {}) %2) maps))
16:21	Profpatsch	That’s merge.
16:22	Profpatsch	The when is just to get the firsit non-nil value, right?
16:22	Profpatsch	*first
16:43	sveri	so, du hast doch gesagt du kennst dich jetzt mit der selector syntax von enlive aus :D
16:43	sveri	hups, sry, wrong channel^^
16:46	bitemyapp	arrdem: scalin' >:)
17:00	daGrevis	hi! i have a list of numbers. i would like to get first numbers until multiplication of them is X. i dunno how could i say it functionally. i need to go through the list and in each step do (* x %) and check if it's X already. if so, stop the loop
17:01	daGrevis	this is what i have so far :( http://vpaste.net/0OjiF
17:01	TEttinger	daGrevis, reduced . hang on a sec
17:02	Mandar	hi
17:02	Mandar	firefox keeps crashing, as soon as I launch a javascript heavy page
17:02	brehaut	Mandar: are you sure you are asking the question in the right channel?
17:02	Bronsa	Mandar: and.. what has that to do with clojure?
17:03	Mandar	brehaut, heh
17:03	Mandar	thought i was on #gentoo
17:03	Mandar	:D
17:03	brehaut	not quite ;)
17:03	Mandar	sorry guys!
17:03	brehaut	it happens. np
17:03	TEttinger	,(reduce #(if (<= %1 100) (* %1 %2) (reduced %1)) 1 (range 1 1000))
17:03	clojurebot	120
17:04	Bronsa	TEttinger not quite. he wants back the list of numbers
17:04	brehaut	(doc reduced)
17:04	clojurebot	"([x]); Wraps x in a way such that a reduce will terminate with the value x"
17:04	brehaut	nice
17:04	daGrevis	woah, thanks, TEttinger. give me some time to understnd it
17:04	daGrevis	Bronsa, TEttinger: ye, i need a list back with numbers that together * make up X
17:05	TEttinger	ohhhh like factors?
17:05	TEttinger	for 6, you mean 1, 2, 3 ?
17:05	TEttinger	(and 6)
17:06	daGrevis	ye exactly like factors :)
17:06	Bronsa	,(reduce (fn [[m l] n] (if (<= m 100) [(* m n) (conj l n)] (reduced l))) [1 []] (range 1 100))
17:06	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5]
17:06	TEttinger	do the factors need to be prime?
17:06	Bronsa	if you want to use reduce/reduced
17:07	daGrevis	TEttinger, yes
17:07	daGrevis	im doing this https://projecteuler.net/problem=3
17:07	daGrevis	i have all primes of X and now I would like to get out prime factors
17:07	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:08	TEttinger	you mean you've made a list of primes less than 600851475143 ?
17:09	Bronsa	arrdem: I can do that for you if you want.
17:09	daGrevis	TEttinger, well i know it's not efficient.just trying to do something before optimization. currently im working with 13195
17:09	arrdem	Bronsa: with or without manual JVM bytecode generation...
17:09	AimHere	Ouch. I think a very quick course in number theory is in order
17:09	daGrevis	TEttinger, friend did this task in C++ with pure bruteforce and it run like 1sec
17:10	arrdem	daGrevis: just because brute force is viable doesn't mean we'll help you do it :D
17:10	AimHere	First off, consider taking only the primes up to and including Sqrt(X), because
17:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: amusingly, you might've had a better time (not necessarily faster) with something that behaved more like BEAM
17:11	AimHere	If you know that ab=x, and a<sqrt(x), then b> sqrt(x)
17:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: especially when you wanted to just send-off willy nilly.
17:11	Bronsa	arrdem: I lost count of the times I made the jvm crash while playing with jna/llvm
17:11	bitemyapp	that having been said, the unbounded mailboxes in Erlang are an exceedingly bad idea.
17:11	arrdem	Bronsa: haha yeah that isn't something I'm looking forwards too...
17:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: playing with aleph some more trying to get a handle on the queue semantics...
17:13	daGrevis	AimHere, about sqrt - i can do / 2 to avoid looping throught half of a list http://vpaste.net/Ubo3o
17:13	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm reading code I didn't write.
17:14	AimHere	daGrevis, sqrt(2) < 2 for all numbers that matter. Use that instead!
17:14	daGrevis	AimHere, is sqrt in core lib?
17:14	AimHere	Sorry sqrt(n) < n/2
17:14	arrdem	daGrevis: of course it is
17:14	AimHere	It's in Java.
17:14	AimHere	Math/sqrt
17:15	AimHere	,(Math/sqrt 13195)
17:15	clojurebot	114.86949116279744
17:15	daGrevis	cool
17:15	AimHere	It's not that cool. It's not first classy like most clojure functions
17:16	arrdem	AimHere: math.numeric-tower...
17:16	AimHere	,(map Math/sqrt [1 2 3 4 5 6])
17:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: sqrt in class java.lang.Math, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:16	daGrevis	funny that i can use range with floats
17:17	daGrevis	ohh ye num-twr, but it's a 3rd party
17:17	lvh	too much crypto for me
17:17	lvh	I'm going "huh? what the heck is a static field? maybe it can't do it over integers, but ..."
17:18	lvh	then I realized: jvm.
17:18	AimHere	daGrevis, also, fundamental theorem of arithmetic would really help you out. If you find out that prime p\|n, then to find the other primes that divide n, those are exactly the primes that divide n/p
17:19	daGrevis	AimHere, thanks, I'll look into it. ;)
17:23	sveri	hi, in the enlive tutorial (https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/) the guy uses this syntax for the selector: "(def ^:dynamic story-selector...", why does he choose to make it dynamic? from my understanding a selector should not change during a request, any ideas?
17:28	bitemyapp	sveri: why are you doing the enlive tutorial?
17:28	sveri	bitemyapp: cause i want to use enlive?
17:28	bitemyapp	sveri: that was a given, what's your use-case?
17:29	marcopolo`	I think he's doing that because that tutorial is meant to be done in a repl, so you could change the selector and play around with it
17:29	sveri	bitemyapp: sry, i understand now, i am just picking a rest service and provide the data to some html, so during one request that wont change at my place
17:29	marcopolo`	if you didn't change the selector it would work just the same if it weren't dynamic
17:29	sveri	marcopolo`: that makes sense
17:29	sveri	i just was not sure if i missed something or misunderstood the dynamic attribute
17:30	bitemyapp	sveri: Perhaps https://github.com/raynes/laser/ would involve less time being utterly lost?
17:30	sveri	bitemyapp: so you would prefer laser over enlive?
17:31	bitemyapp	sveri: I'm a hypocrite, I don't prefer anything in this case, I'm just trying to save you some grief.
17:31	marcopolo`	You are creating html?
17:32	sveri	bitemyapp: ok, thank you then, i am just getting started together with a friend and we thought we go with enlive as it seems to be broadly used
17:32	sveri	marcopolo`: yea
17:32	bitemyapp	sveri: not really.
17:32	bitemyapp	sveri: it just has good marketing.
17:32	sveri	bitemyapp: hehe
17:34	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW1VsqiNV4
17:34	marcopolo`	sveri: I like enlive, but I've only used it for reading/parsing html
17:35	sveri	marcopolo`: well, as far as i read it works both ways
17:35	marcopolo`	but if you are you creating html, you might want to look at hiccup
17:35	marcopolo`	https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup
17:35	marcopolo`	haha let's overload you libraries!
17:35	sveri	:D
17:35	sveri	i seen that one to
17:36	sveri	but really, as a newbie in clojure land in general its hard to see the pros and cons of every lib and my feeling is i just have to go with one of them and see how it works
17:38	marcopolo`	yup!
17:39	sveri	does template reloading work with laser? thats one thing that bugs me currently with enlive
18:23	noprompt	dnolen: you around?
18:25	bitemyapp	noprompt: long time no see.
18:26	dnolen	noprompt: what's up?
18:26	noprompt	bitemyapp: the 100% pairing at the new gig has made it hard to be here during the day.
18:26	bitemyapp	noprompt: I hear that.
18:27	bitemyapp	noprompt: could I interest you in some Fay and React.js tinkering?
18:27	noprompt	dnolen: i've run in to some weird behavior w/ "private" channels w/in components.
18:27	bitemyapp	noprompt: there's a CLJS meetup coming up
18:27	dnolen	noprompt: private?
18:27	noprompt	dnolen: i'm building out a generic table sorter with om.
18:27	noprompt	dnolen: eh, maybe that's the wrong word for it.
18:28	noprompt	dnolen: basically i have a component which creates a thead, whenever asc/desc buttons are clicked information is put on a channel which is passed in via opts in the parent component.
18:28	noprompt	dnolen: the parent component then uses that information to sort the table.
18:29	dnolen	noprompt: what's the actual problem w/ the channels?
18:29	noprompt	dnolen: the problem happens when the table component gets swapped out say via a route change and a new "page" is rendered.
18:29	noprompt	dnolen: the channel starts recieving an unstoppable flow of puts.
18:30	noprompt	dnolen: and the browser locks up :(
18:30	bitemyapp	"unstoppable flow of puts"
18:30	noprompt	bitemyapp: not sure how else to describe it.
18:30	dnolen	noprompt: hmm, definitely would like to see a minimal example of this
18:30	bitemyapp	noprompt: just found it a funny mental image.
18:31	noprompt	dnolen: let me see if i can reduce my little demo here to something simple.
18:31	noprompt	dnolen: i was planning to write a blog post about making reusable components like this.
18:32	dnolen	noprompt: that would help
18:32	dnolen	noprompt: sounds cool
18:32	dnolen	Om 0.2.0 just went out
18:32	noprompt	dnolen: i have the channel being created in IInitState and close!ed in IWillUnmount
18:32	dnolen	breaking changes for anyone using :opts
18:32	dnolen	not replace by :state and :init-state, examples updated
18:33	dnolen	s/not replace/now replaced
18:33	noprompt	dnolen: yeah, just noticed the last few commits.
18:33	noprompt	dnolen: i check it everyday :)
18:33	dnolen	noprompt: heh, I really struggled on this one by I think this is right direction
18:33	dnolen	noprompt: I hated that people could accidentally refer to stale opts
18:33	dnolen	noprompt: also the fact that you couldn't set state from parent component
18:34	noprompt	dnolen: i started a new gig this week and so far the guys i've been pairing with are excited about it.
18:34	dnolen	noprompt: that's great!
18:34	noprompt	dnolen: most of them aren't big in to front end and it actually got them excited about building apps with cljs.
18:34	dnolen	noprompt: I'm pretty excited about it too, I think I can commit to documenting things now and writing real tutorials.
18:34	dnolen	noprompt: next phase is the time management stuff
18:35	noprompt	dnolen: well i think i'm going to be sharing little nuggets like this moving forward. two guys said i should write up something.
18:36	noprompt	dnolen: i sort of wanna "borrow" your latex looking blog theme.
18:36	AmLearning	: : rating 5. 0/5 - 54 votes [+] 54 likes [-] 0 dislikes : :
18:36	noprompt	dnolen: it's got that "academic" feel. :)
18:36	AmLearning	now days if ai even thin or feel threatened, i will brandish weapon "after yelling aloud"
18:36	noprompt	bitemyapp: i think we could get back on the haskell horse next week.
18:36	AmLearning	it's you're
18:36	noprompt	bitemyapp: had to get used to the new workday. starting at 7am, etc.
18:37	AmLearning	definition [1/1]: the short nickname for the word: tsundere. "tsun tsun" is used for cold/blunt/curt attitude, while "dere dere" is used when a person becomes embarrassed in front of his/her lover.
18:37	bitemyapp	noprompt: okie-dokie.
18:37	AmLearning	noprompt: there's a cljs meetup coming up
18:38	noprompt	bitemyapp: you going to clojure west?!
18:38	AmLearning	! ud twat
18:38	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'm going to the CLJS meetup this month, I dunno about C/W
18:38	SparkySparkyBoom	AmLearning, are you a furry
18:38	noprompt	bitemyapp: c'mon!
18:38	AmLearning	SparkySparkyBoom, channel
18:38	SparkySparkyBoom	?
18:38	noprompt	bitemyapp: it's practically in your backyard.
18:38	locks	what’s happening in here.
18:39	bitemyapp	locks: trulls.
18:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: the run finished overnight, but I managed to kill react with sharding settings. re-running...
18:39	bitemyapp	noprompt: yeah but, it's about Clojure.
18:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: RethinkDB?
18:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: what settings did it break under? Did you report to their github?
18:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah I meant rethink.
18:39	noprompt	bitemyapp: it's also about friendship. ;)
18:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: I didn't because it's my fault that it broke.
18:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: turns out syncing 1.8M records to a new shard totally locks up even my gaming box.. I think I got a kernel panick.
18:40	bitemyapp	arrdem: report it anyway
18:41	bitemyapp	noprompt: that's the main incentive right now, but I'll end up using it as an opportunity to spread the joy of types.
18:41	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'd probably spend most of the conference interested in anything Datomic related, teaching Haskell/Fay, and playing GO.
18:41	bitemyapp	(baduk)
18:42	locks	what’s with clojure programmers and Go
18:42	noprompt	dnolen: got a new rig w/ a quad core I7 + 16GB ram, cljs compiles like laser beams. :D
18:43	noprompt	locks: i don't play go.
18:43	bitemyapp	locks: it's not like I play Go well.
18:44	dnolen	noprompt: haha awesome :)
18:44	noprompt	dnolen: w/ source-maps builds are ~5s.
18:44	mcohen3	basic question for anyone with some core.async knowledge.....
18:45	locks	bitemyapp: how did you learn to play it?
18:45	bitemyapp	locks: losing
18:45	jasonpp	Started developing with Clojure and LightTable recently and noticed battery life on my new-ish Macbook Pro has dropped. Could JVM be responsible?
18:45	mcohen3	is it "thread safe" to reference vars in the outer (closure) scope from within a go block?
18:46	locks	bitemyapp: haha. did you play online? I don’t think there’s too many places where I can play go around here
18:46	bitemyapp	locks: yes.
18:47	bitemyapp	jasonpp: I would guess yes, but science is always an option.
18:47	egghead	in cljs should I be using cljs.reader/read-string and prn-str on the server or is it better to do something else?
18:48	mcohen3	for example....https://gist.github.com/mcohen01/8512579
18:48	jasonpp	bitemyapp: Activity Monitor didn't really offer any answers
18:48	mcohen3	inside the go block i'm referencing url and foo, which are in scope prior to the go block
18:49	dnolen	noprompt: haha awesome
18:49	jasonpp	No significant CPU but RAM obviously quite high but I don't know if this accounts for (relative) battery drain
18:49	bitemyapp	jasonpp: not substantially.
18:49	mcohen3	does core.async take care of saving that whole closure scope state when it "parks" the thread?
18:49	noprompt	dnolen: well it seems like the problem is with close!ing the channel.
18:49	noprompt	dnolen: if i don't close it during unmount everything is fine.
18:49	mcohen3	such that multiple threads will see the "correct" values of those vars inside the go block?
18:52	egghead	is it better to go `server edn -> client edn` or `server edn -> server json -> client json -> client edn`
18:53	marcopolo`	egghead: better to stay with edn
18:53	marcopolo`	however I think edn might be a little slower than json, but you won't notice unless you are doing thousands of parsing
18:54	noprompt	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/noprompt/8512620
18:55	michaniskin	egghead: http://github.com/tailrecursion/cljson
18:55	noprompt	dnolen: do i not need to worry about close!ing the channel when the component unmounts?
18:56	noprompt	bitemyapp: well, if you don't wanna go to clojure west that's cool. ;_;
18:56	egghead	oh cool thanks michaniskin
18:56	bitemyapp	noprompt: I do sorta. I just want to save the money for leaving this state even more.
18:57	bitemyapp	or time, for that matter.
18:58	noprompt	bitemyapp: you're gonna move to a northern european country and join a type safe cult.
18:58	insamniac	lulz
18:58	bitemyapp	noprompt: I was thinking Austin or Seattle. Northern European usually implies Erlang.
18:59	noprompt	bitemyapp: given my taste in sweaters recently i'm could mistaken for a haskell programmer.
18:59	noprompt	bitemyapp: although i have been busting out the math books more.
19:00	bitemyapp	noprompt: check out Awodey's Category Theory :)
19:01	noprompt	bitemyapp: i've been working through a probability book and an abstract algebra one in my free time. this weekend i was messing with parametric equations and doing fun stuff with curves.
19:01	bitemyapp	noprompt: the CT will tie into abstract algebra.
19:02	noprompt	bitemyapp: yeah, that's why i wanna get a handle on it before i look at CT any more.
19:02	bitemyapp	noprompt: no need.
19:03	bitemyapp	noprompt: CT is pretty minimal in terms of prereqs
19:03	noprompt	bitemyapp: sure, but i'm not as interested in it as AA.
19:03	bitemyapp	noprompt: fair
19:04	noprompt	bitemyapp: in my experience with math it's always better to have a good foundation in subtopics before moving higher up the abstraction chain.
19:04	noprompt	bitemyapp: plus there's a ton of stuff in AA that's useful.
19:04	dnolen	noprompt: sorry I gotta run
19:04	dnolen	noprompt: you definitely have to be concerned about channel closing
19:05	dnolen	noprompt: anyone listening needs to be ready for that.
19:05	noprompt	dnolen: alrighty. if you get a chance to run the code and give me feedback that'd be helpful. i don't wanna put a blog post out there with borked code.
19:08	wafflepilot	software = fun
19:09	TEttinger	gah http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/_dot_dot
19:10	patrickod	what's the most idiomatic of having multiple dependent if-lets in sequence? I'm writing a small web service that creates 2 dependent models from a request and if-let only supports one binding
19:10	patrickod	is nesting them the best practice ?
19:11	noprompt	patrickod: i wouldn't worry about the idioms so much. if if-let isn't going to work in your case then don't use it.
19:12	noprompt	patrickod: use whatever will make your code work will expressing your intent clearly.
19:12	noprompt	*while expressing
19:12	patrickod	noprompt fair enough. given it's my first clojure project I just wondered what idioms existed if any for such things. this is a learning project not something serious :)
19:12	patrickod	thanks!
19:12	alew	patrickod: I had a similar issue and came up with a macro with the help of a few people here
19:13	danneu	patrickod: yeah, sort of like when-let -- it'd be nice to have syntax for "when all of these bind, then do this".
19:13	alew	patrickod: It's like an inverted cond that also lets you have binding forms in it
19:13	alew	but yeah you could just write a if-all-let
19:15	danneu	,(-> 42)
19:15	clojurebot	42
19:15	danneu	,(->> 42)
19:15	clojurebot	42
19:15	danneu	oh what
19:16	noprompt	patrickod: fwiw, in my experience it's best to focus on writing idiomatic code once you've gotten used to a new language. you'll be significantly less stressed though you'll probably write more verbose/ugly code. :)
19:16	patrickod	this is true. much less stressful when you just don't care
19:17	noprompt	danneu: how's it going?
19:17	noprompt	danneu: i don't think we've ever spoken outside of GH issues.
19:18	danneu	noprompt: hey man. it's going well. i am probably garden's biggest user.
19:18	danneu	i want to freeze time so that i can extract my stuff back into github repos
19:18	noprompt	danneu: haha, thanks! that'd be awesome.
19:19	noprompt	danneu: hey did you ever get a chance to check that lein-garden issue?
19:21	danneu	noprompt: i havent yet tried your update
19:22	noprompt	danneu: eh, that pluginn needs work. i think i jumped the gun promoting it. i got busy the past couple months and haven't been givin garden or the plugin enough attention.
19:22	noprompt	danneu: there's a pile of things i want to improve.
19:22	danneu	ill give it a shot. i've been using my own loop where i hard-code the paths so i'll see if i can get it working
19:22	noprompt	danneu: keyframes, the compiler, colors; all need work.
19:23	noprompt	danneu: the big thing i want is a compiler protocol which people can safely use.
19:23	danneu	yeah. me too. my compass port turned into two different projects. one is a library of helpers. the other is a compile/build tool.
19:23	noprompt	danneu: well i'm definitely open to any ideas you've got.
19:24	noprompt	danneu: most of the "big" features have been handled.
19:26	danneu	a hiccup + garden codebase is pretty comical.
19:26	ryantm	,5d2
19:26	noprompt	oh, it's so weird isn't it?
19:26	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 5d2>
19:26	brehaut	i prefer a 5e3 myself
19:26	noprompt	danneu: i built a little web app where i was sharing selectors between hiccup/garden. my mind was melting.
19:27	danneu	noprompt: the power is overwhelming for me unless i take breaks to square up my abstractions. but when i get it right, it's insane
19:28	noprompt	danneu: my feeling exactly. have you messed much w/ macros? that was the biggest mind blowing moment for me.
19:29	ryantm	^,(+ 1 1)
19:29	danneu	noprompt: i'm pretty bad at them, but i try.
19:29	noprompt	danneu: the funny thing is i spent more time working on garden than actually using it seriously. when i finally got the chance it was an interesting experience.
19:30	danneu	i think i've inadvertently rewritten most of Twitter Bootstrap with garden though in my current proj
19:30	noprompt	danneu: oh man, you should definitely share that.
19:30	noprompt	danneu: i'd link to the repo in the README.
19:30	danneu	the hard part is just that this stuff gets so coupled with my production code so it's a fulltime job just to extract things
19:31	noprompt	i hear ya.
19:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: doters?
19:32	noprompt	danneu: one thing that needs to happen is an api for client-side garden. right now it's just garden on the client, but it's much better to just manipulate the CSSOM directly.
19:32	noprompt	haven't figured out how best to handle that.
19:34	danneu	noprompt: what kind of stuff would that allow you to do? i don't have much experience on the client-side.
19:36	noprompt	danneu: it'd just allow you to manipulate the CSSOM directly instead of generating strings and setting the style attribute of stuff directly.
19:36	noprompt	danneu: so something like (update-rule! :.foo styles..)
19:38	noprompt	danneu: what's nice about it is that you can be more declarative. ie. you don't have to say select these elements and set their style attribute to x.
19:39	noprompt	danneu: you just update the stylesheet and everything is gravy.
19:41	danneu	noprompt: oh yeah, of course. you're just updating a datastructure.
19:41	arrdem	bitemyapp: maybe later. crunching on more homework and Awaited is 50% through the 2nd crawl run.
19:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: I may hop on the texas server 8-10ish
19:42	arrdem	or sooner if these retards keep dancing in the library..
19:44	marcopolo`	So here's something weird my -main fn sets up a go-loop, does work in it. In the go-loop goes on indefinetely, but when I run it with lein run it exits after a bit. Is there some JVM flag I should set?
19:50	mischov	marcopolo: -XX:+StopScrewingWithMe? :P
19:50	marcopolo`	haha
19:51	marcopolo`	now when I do Thread/sleep in the main before exiting it does my go-routine work, so I'm pretty sure it thinks the main thread is done and exits.
19:52	arrdem	mischov: hah well played
19:53	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: fork a JVM keep-alive thread, provide a channel to it to kill it off when you're ready for the process to terminate.
19:53	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: core.async "threads" are not JVM threads, it can't tell it's supposed to keep the lights on for somebody.
19:53	marcopolo`	yeah I figured that was the problem
19:53	bitemyapp	well you say that.
19:54	marcopolo`	what's a keep-alive thread?
19:54	bitemyapp	marcopolo`: it's not a reified thing. I incorporated the purpose of the thread into the noun.
19:54	arrdem	marcopolo`: a thread that just spins
19:55	bitemyapp	it wouldn't even spin, it's just going to park on a channel wait.
19:55	bitemyapp	when it receives anything from that channel, it dies and takes your process down with it.
19:55	quizdr	if you take the nth element of a huge lazy sequence , i assume the reason it won't overflow the stack is because it is not holding onto references to the previous elements, even if they are needed to calclate nth, it is throwing them away, right?
19:56	marcopolo`	bitemyapp: gotcha, thanks
19:56	arrdem	quizdr: no... that would be a heap overflow
19:56	arrdem	quizdr: a stack overflow is too many recursive function calls were made
19:56	quizdr	ok, but an overflow regardless, so it is throwing away the intermediate calculations to avoid this, right?
19:56	arrdem	quizdr: but yes, lazy sequences can potentially conserve memory by garbage collecting unused subseq.
19:57	quizdr	in which case, if you asked for nth again, it would need to calculate again, unless you memoize for that particular nth request?
19:57	arrdem	quizdr: no. that model only applies to stream accessed lazy sequences
19:58	arrdem	quizdr: if you use nth on a lazy seq, everything up to the nth block is realized and cached.
19:58	arrdem	quizdr: with no hope of garbage collection
19:58	quizdr	cached how? so you could use up the heap then?
19:58	arrdem	well.. the block where the nth element resides...
19:58	arrdem	quizdr: correct. observe.
19:58	arrdem	,(doall (range))
19:58	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
19:59	jack_rabbit	heh
19:59	arrdem	quizdr: I just told the bot to fully compute an infinite sequence.
19:59	quizdr	then how is it possible to request some ridiculously large nth value from a sequence of infinite fibonacci numbers, for example, without using up the heap?
20:01	arrdem	quizdr: for a fibonacci sequence incrementally defined as a lazy list, computing the nth term requires fully computing the previous n terms, right?
20:02	arrdem	quizdr: it's just that a lazy sequence can perform this computation in constant space.
20:02	quizdr	but if those n terms are cached, aren't they taking up heap space?
20:02	arrdem	,(doc realized?)
20:02	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if a value has been produced for a promise, delay, future or lazy sequence."
20:03	danneu	How does noir.util.crypt/compare know what salt to use? https://github.com/noir-clojure/lib-noir/blob/master/src/noir/util/crypt.clj#L50
20:03	arrdem	quizdr: I'm actually not sure under what circumstances a lazy sequence will become realized/cached.
20:04	arrdem	quizdr: in this case the sequence should not become realized because any reasonable fibonacci sequence definition will, thanks to being recursive, unroll into incrememental loop calculation form.
20:04	arrdem	quizdr: so accessing the nth element here will not cause caching of the previous n.
20:05	arrdem	quizdr: however if you have a lazy sequence of finite size, and traverse it in its entirety, then the lazy sequence will become fully realized and cached.
20:06	arrdem	quizdr: does that distinction make sense to you?
20:08	quizdr	arrdem, consider this lazy fibb definition:
20:08	arrdem	quizdr: refheap paste please.
20:09	quizdr	,(def fibb [] (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0N 1N])))
20:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Too many arguments to def, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:09	quizdr	ah
20:09	quizdr	,(def fibb [] (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0N 1N]))))
20:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Too many arguments to def, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:09	quizdr	copy paste madness
20:09	quizdr	,(defn fibb [] (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0N 1N])))
20:09	clojurebot	#'sandbox/fibb
20:10	quizdr	,(def lots-o-fibs (take 1000000000 (fibo)))
20:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: fibo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:10	quizdr	(def lots-o-fibs (take 1000000000 (fibb)))
20:10	quizdr	,(def lots-o-fibs (take 1000000000 (fibb)))
20:10	clojurebot	#'sandbox/lots-o-fibs
20:10	quizdr	grr sorry
20:10	arrdem	,(let [lst (fibb)] (println (nth 50 lst) (realized? lst))
20:10	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
20:10	quizdr	so when i do this:
20:10	quizdr	,(nth lots-o-fibs 100)
20:10	arrdem	,(let [lst (fibb)] (println (nth 50 lst) (realized? lst)))
20:10	clojurebot	354224848179261915075N
20:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
20:11	arrdem	,(let [lst (fibb)] (println (nth lst 59) (realized? lst)))
20:11	clojurebot	956722026041N true\n
20:11	quizdr	it is saying it is realized, but only up to the 59th element, right?
20:12	quizdr	,(realized? lots-o-fibs)
20:12	clojurebot	true
20:12	arrdem	quizdr: I think so... however the 59 alignment is doubtful. map is a chunked lazy sequence, so it's more likely to have computed 64 terms and only shown the 59th.
20:13	quizdr	that's fine, but what I want to know is: are all those elements 0 - 59 or 64 consuming heap space? i wouldn't think so. so how can they be realized or cached?
20:13	quizdr	,(nth lots-o-fibs 1000)
20:13	clojurebot	43466557686937456435688527675040625802564660517371780402481729089536555417949051890403879840079255169295922593080322634775209689623239873322471161642996440906533187938298969649928516003704476137795166849228875N
20:14	quizdr	obviously, clojure is not keeping 1000 of these huge numbers in memory
20:14	quizdr	yet it can extract the 1000th
20:14	arrdem	quizdr: if they have not been garbage collected (which they won't be so long as the head of the seq is referenced) they must be sucking up storage.
20:14	arrdem	and yes it can keep 1000 huge numbers in memory...
20:14	quizdr	if they are garbage collected, then asking for them again means they are calculated again, even if they are already realized, right?
20:15	arrdem	they won't be, because the head of the sequence is retained.
20:15	hyPiRion	,(last losts-of-fibs)
20:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: losts-of-fibs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:15	hyPiRion	,(last lots-of-fibs)
20:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: lots-of-fibs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:15	arrdem	hyPiRion: lolz
20:15	hyPiRion	,(last lots-o-fibs)
20:15	arrdem	hyPiRion: stick around... you can probably answer this better than I can
20:15	quizdr	by "head" you mean the first 0 - 59 elements?
20:15	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
20:16	arrdem	quizdr: no, by head I mean the object constituting the "lazy" sequence.
20:16	arrdem	this thing
20:16	arrdem	,lots-o-fibs
20:16	clojurebot	eval service is offline
20:16	arrdem	ah shit.
20:16	hyPiRion	arrdem: I think I just broke it
20:16	arrdem	hyPiRion: you or me, its dead either way :P
20:16	hyPiRion	anyway, realized? returns true if the next element in the lazy seq is realized
20:16	hyPiRion	not the entire thing
20:17	arrdem	,(next lots-o-fibs)
20:17	quizdr	ok, so explain to me how the system can not store the calculations for all those hundreds or thousands of results from 0 to n-1 and thus not use heap space, but also not have to recaculate them?
20:17	clojurebot	eval service is offline
20:18	arrdem	http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shia-labeouf-magic-gif.gif
20:18	hyPiRion	quizdr: it did, that's why I tried to pick the last element in the list of all those fibs
20:18	arrdem	quizdr: it does store those. the lazy-sequence object contains a cache of the realized (computed) subsequence of the sequence.
20:19	arrdem	quizdr: so when you say (nth seq 5000), it computes and stores the first 5000 and just returns the last one to you.
20:19	arrdem	quizdr: this all obviously consumes heap space.
20:19	quizdr	i see. why is the heap overflow only happening when you request to view one of those that has been stored, rather than in the act of actually storing them to begin with?
20:19	hyPiRion	arrdem: well
20:20	arrdem	hyPiRion: mod some handwaving and seq internals which I need to learn..
20:20	arrdem	quizdr: you cannot achieve a heap overflow re-accessing an element.
20:21	arrdem	quizdr: what hyPiRion and I have demonstrated is accessing an element so far out the lazy sequence that computing the cache kills the JVM
20:21	gtrak	tpope: have you been working on a middleware for the jump-to-symbol?
20:21	hyPiRion	quizdr: the elements aren't generated unless they have to be used (e.g. by using next/rest)
20:21	quizdr	if you are correct, then when I request the 1000th fib, then 1000 fibs are stored in the heap somewhere. but if I try to do the same with an un-lazy sequence, you get memory overflow errors right away. whether it is lazy or not, 1000 of these numbers takes up the same amount of memory, right?
20:22	arrdem	hyPiRion: which in this case they have to be by definition of iterate...
20:22	quizdr	hyPiRion so you are saying the elements 0 - 999 are not being stored because they are not being requested, right?
20:22	arrdem	hyPiRion: so his (map first (iterate)) is totally going to exhibit this behavior because it's based on next.
20:23	hyPiRion	hmm
20:23	arrdem	,(doc iterate)
20:23	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
20:23	arrdem	quizdr: how do you think iterate is implemented?
20:23	hyPiRion	quizdr: first off, storing 1000 elements takes roughly the same space for both a lazy and an eager seq
20:23	arrdem	quizdr: it feeds the last computed value into a lazy-seq expression for the next value.
20:24	hyPiRion	however, an eager seq will at some point have all the elements in the heap. This is not necessarily true for a lazy seq
20:24	quizdr	so a lazy seq could then "forget" some of those elements at some point?
20:24	hyPiRion	but that depends on whether or not you retain the head of the lazy seq, and how you generate said lazy seq
20:26	quizdr	so I retained the head when I did this: (def lots-o-fibs (take 1000000000 (fibb))) if I did not do that, then I might technically be able to access elements further out in the space without getting memory errors, since the prior elements would be immediate garbage collected, is that right? storing the head reduces how far out you can get stuff?
20:26	hyPiRion	quizdr: Consider a linked list. If I do (def a my-list), then (def a (rest my-list)), then the first element of my-list can be garbage collected
20:27	hyPiRion	quizdr: yeah
20:27	S11001001	quizdr: that's accurate
20:27	quizdr	hyPiRion, ahh, so it really depends on how the head is stored in this case.
20:28	hyPiRion	quizdr: right. If you define lots-o-fibs as a function returning (take 1e10 (fibb)) instead, you'd generate a new list every time (and not retain its head)
20:28	quizdr	so the advantage of storing the head is that elements in the sequence are cached once they are calcualted, and you don't have to wait for those calcualtes again. the advantage of not storing the head is you can access nearly anything in the sequence even way far out, in ways you could not do when storing the head.
20:28	hyPiRion	quizdr: exactly
20:28	quizdr	in which case, you choose what you need, whether storing or not fits your needs
20:28	alew	when you hold onto the head, the gc can't touch anything in the lazy seq because you can get to any part of the lazy seq through the head
20:29	quizdr	so if time was not an issue, but you wanted to access nearly anything in an infinite sequence, storing the head is a bad idea.
20:29	hyPiRion	yup.
20:30	quizdr	wherease, if time is important and you frequently need the same elements over and over again, sacrificing the extent to which you can access inifinity is worth the benefit of retaining prior realizations
20:30	hyPiRion	quizdr: yeah, or you can eagerly compute the results if you know you need them anyway. I some cases, directly inserting the values into a vector may be beneficial for random access times
20:31	hyPiRion	*In some cases
20:31	alew	you can still access farther out points of the lazy seq and have them be cached
20:31	alew	if you retain the head of the lazy seq 1000 places in
20:32	bbloom	although if you need to retain that and do multiple ops on it later, maybe worth paying the cost to build a vector :-)
20:32	quizdr	very interesting stuff. so I should reasonably expect a stored lazy seq and an "eager" seq to flake out in memory around the same point in the sequence, since they are both storing their elements
20:36	S11001001	quizdr: the lazy representation typically has stacks more memory overhead per element, though chunks alleviate this when available.
20:40	quizdr	interesting. lazy sequences use more memory for their retained elements than eager sequences?
20:41	S11001001	quizdr: indeed
20:41	bbloom	quizdr: the implementations are quite approchable to read
20:42	quizdr	bbloom that's true
20:42	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LazySeq.java
20:43	quizdr	so is the entire implementation of clojure open source? one could go and build clojure for use?
20:43	bbloom	lazy sequences are essentially cons cells, but each cell needs an extra possible function thunk field
20:43	bbloom	vectors, for example, use 32-wide arrays and are much cheaper than cons cells per item
20:43	quizdr	that makes sense.
20:43	bbloom	quizdr: clojure is open source yes, i just linked you to it
20:44	quizdr	so one could technically build a version of clojure with reader macros, for example, by adding that functionality
20:44	mrhanky	is it possible to include jquery-migrate via foreign-libs in lein-cljsbuild?
20:45	S11001001	quizdr: eh, could you take it seriously if it wasn't? :)
20:46	quizdr	well i'd seen comments in the clojure mailing list about guys who wanted to add various things, and the consensus then being "no they won't be added." but I would think those guys could just do it for themselves. i hadn't realied till just now that the java implementation was also open source
20:46	quizdr	i don't know much java so never thought to check on it
20:47	flamingnoms	is it normal for a nested list to be flattened when map'd if said list is a lazy sequence?
20:48	cark	mrhanky: you might want to check the :preamble option in compiler settings of cljsbuild
20:48	S11001001	quizdr: the cost/benefit analysis of forking clojure is more complicated than "do I have the skills to implement this?"
20:48	quizdr	i'd imagine it is
20:49	S11001001	quizdr: i.e. sure, you can implement reader macros, and then use them in your libraries. But who will use your libraries then?
20:49	S11001001	anyway there are lots of bad ideas too, good to have principled maintenance
20:50	quizdr	reader macros for example would have a truly transformative power for live music coding via overtone, hence my mentioning them. not likely that pragmatic for other cases.
20:50	cark	there are many good use cases for reader macros
20:51	flamingnoms	such as making FORTRAN 95 valid lisp?
20:51	cark	actually we have quite a few of these appearing from time to time in standard clojure
20:51	cark	most recently the #js reader macro was added to clojurescript, it is really a valuable addition
20:52	quizdr	cark, yes, but their criticism are well justified in most cases. they don't really add functionality to what you can do with your algorithms and those don't add power in that way. but for live music coding, where the speed in which you type affects the performance of your music (via the amazing clojure system "overtone"), they would be extraordinarily useful
20:52	quizdr	anyway, i didn't mean to start a reader macro debate, sorry
20:52	cark	they do add expressive power
20:53	mrhanky	cark, is it just me or is there no documentation about this option?
20:53	cark	the same criticism is oftentimes applied to macros
20:53	eraserhd	Does anyone know of an existing Java or clojure implementation of editor-type buffers? E.g. like emacs buffers or vim buffers?
20:53	cark	mrhanky: ah possibly =P
20:53	mrhanky	that's bad :)
20:54	mrhanky	can you explain what this option does?
20:54	quizdr	regular macros truly extend the power of the language itself, while reader macros are primarily a convenience for your fingers
20:54	cark	mrhanky: in your cljs-build config do this :compiler {:output-to "main.js" :preamble ["js/gl-matrix-min.js"]}
20:54	cark	mrhanky: and so on
20:55	cark	mrhanky: it will add the javascript code at the beginning of your compiled cljs files, after compilation is done
20:56	cark	quizdr: yet they're usefull enough to have many of these inside clojure
20:57	cark	quizdr: #(), #', #{} ... and so on
20:58	sritchie	do you guys know if there's a way to track down unused clojure functins?
20:58	sritchie	functions*?
21:00	mrhanky	cark, are you sure this works with :foreign-libs ?
21:01	cark	mrhanky: actually i don't know the first thing about :foreign-libs ...
21:01	cark	mrhanky: actually i think foreign-libs is doing that process, before compilation
21:02	cark	mrhanky: but then you need a library which is compatible with the closure copiler
21:02	cark	compiler
21:02	cark	don't quote me on that tho, i'm not sure
21:03	mrhanky	libs added with :foreign-libs do not need to be compatible with closure
21:04	cark	mrhanky: ahyes you're right, i remember trying to make that work, but never made it
21:05	cark	mrhanky: for that gl-matrix.js thing, i eventually added it like i showed you, then made a cljs namespace to "import" everything
21:06	cark	mrhanky: like so : (def mat2d (js* "mat2d")) (def clone (aget mat2d "clone")) ...etc...
21:06	cark	mrhanky: not the most elegant, but it works =)
21:07	danneu	Datomic-free's 2-peer limit means that if I have a Prod and Staging server behind a load balancer and they connect to the same database, then I can't connect to Datomic from a `lein repl`, right?
21:10	dissipate	can someone tell me why it is worth it to pay for Datomic when there are tons of NoSQL and SQL databases out there for free? not trolling here, just curious.
21:10	mrcheeks	eraserhd: that could be just a JPanel with a CardLayout and what you need to do in there (editorkit, inputmap, etc.)..
21:12	quizdr	dissipate there are many commercial database options and many free database options. the question is highly dependent on your individual needs.
21:12	dissipate	quizdr, what is the main use case for Datomic?
21:12	bitemyapp	dissipate: OLTP
21:13	bitemyapp	dissipate: you don't have to pay for Datomic.
21:13	bitemyapp	dissipate: there aren't any other viable historical databases that I'm aware of, so there aren't the plethora of options you're making it out to be.
21:14	dissipate	bitemyapp, sounds like a good possible solution for a stock market application?
21:14	bitemyapp	that is way too broad of a question to answer.
21:14	bitemyapp	There are a million and one things that can involve a database and the "stock market"
21:14	quizdr	dissipate you are not interpreting the word "historical" correctly. any database can store historical market data.
21:15	dissipate	bitemyapp, well, in a stock market app you need ACID
21:15	eraserhd	mrcheeks: I'm not interested in the graphical part, but the efficient storage, insertion, changing, and deletion.
21:15	bitemyapp	quizdr: to be fair, datomic works better with any sort of "arrow of time" queries.
21:15	bitemyapp	dissipate: 1. No you don't 2. good thing Datomic is ACID
21:15	dissipate	quizdr, what do you mean by 'historical'?
21:15	bitemyapp	dissipate: you should be asking what I meant by historical.
21:15	arrdem	bitemyapp: ok I'm coffee burned. grabbing food and gonna hop on dotaz or something.
21:15	bitemyapp	arrdem: kk
21:15	dissipate	bitemyapp, what do you mean by historical?
21:22	mrcheeks	eraserhd: that you'll likely need to implement it yourself..
21:23	danneu	dissipate: i have a forum that uses datomic
21:24	danneu	history gives me a simple way to manage post edits. user can 'undo'. kinda cute
21:24	dissipate	danneu, and do you use the historical feature?
21:24	danneu	it also gives me "moderator logging".
21:24	dissipate	danneu, interesting
21:25	danneu	datomic is a pleasure to work with. and i can't imagine what else i'd use in clojure. sql strings? sql dsl and sometimes have to break out into sql strings?
21:26	danneu	the hard part for me is the unfamiliarity
21:26	dissipate	danneu, in short, what is the 'historic' feature of Datomic?
21:27	danneu	dissipate: i dont have much of a technical understanding. i just took a chance with datomic. but a practical example is that if you have a User and they edit their email 100 times, you have all that on record
21:28	danneu	or if you edit their username as a moderator, you can query for all of their historical usernames.
21:28	dissipate	danneu, very interesting. i'm going to have to investigate this some more.
21:28	danneu	that's just a topical example
21:29	xuser	dissipate: haven't use it but I think is just means that a original copy of the data is kept everytime is modified
21:30	xuser	dissipate: think persistent data structures
21:32	hyPiRion	dissipate: More interesting examples is the debugging possibilities. If someone tells you they had an issue with e.g. posting a reply at 10:40 am, you can recreate the situation by specifying that queries shall run as if it were 10:40 am.
21:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: rebooting
21:46	socksy	eraserhd: may be wrong, but perhaps something like a finger tree is what you're looking for?
22:11	eraserhd	socksy: It seems I want a rope rather than a finger tree.
22:12	eraserhd	We don't seem to have a clojure implementation around.
22:13	eraserhd	Well, a rope with some specific adaptation for reading files in blocks and finding things by line number.
22:14	hadronzoo	What is the best way to run clj/cljs integration tests? Use clojure.test and make cljs calls using cemerick/austin?
22:16	hadronzoo	(I want to ensure that the clj and cljs versions of some functions produce identical values without hardcoding the results into the clj and cljs unit tests)
22:23	TEttinger	eraserhd, http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-ropes/ this should be usable from clojure, GPL licensed though
22:27	eraserhd	TEttinger: Cool, thanks!
22:27	eraserhd	At the moment, it seems like what I want is a core.rrb-vector of byte blocks. Still researching.
22:27	TEttinger	if you can read simple F#, http://fssnip.net/4e might be convertable
22:28	eraserhd	It seems like rrb-vector does all the rebalancing and tree-ing.
22:30	eraserhd	TEttinger: the F# one only implements append, no logic for insertion (necessary in my case).
22:31	TEttinger	ooooh I just found something
22:31	TEttinger	http://lua-users.org/wiki/SplayRopes
22:32	TEttinger	these can use a pure functional datatype, splay trees, internally
22:35	eraserhd	TEttinger: Ooh, neat!
22:37	TEttinger	also apparently they're very slow according to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1370847
22:37	TEttinger	not sure if they're slower that stringbuilder
22:38	eraserhd	I don't know if they're slower, but I think for my editor use case, they should be faster.
22:38	eraserhd	The whole file is rarely traversed.
22:39	TEttinger	http://programmingpraxis.com/2013/01/22/splay-heaps/#comment-6799 splay heap here, not sure how different it is
22:39	eraserhd	Mostly the blocks of text in the editor window are accessed, so that should be O(1) after the first lookup.
22:40	TEttinger	(that one IS clojure)
22:43	eraserhd	TEttinger: splay ropes it is. That's a beautiful solution, it is.
22:44	TEttinger	heh, I think with all... 2 implementations, each unsuitable in different ways, mixing and matching should result in something at least. put in on github when you're done maybe?
22:44	TEttinger	I'd like to see it, and I bet it will be shorter than the lua impl
22:45	eraserhd	Yeah, I'll do it in a separate repo.
23:11	notsonerdysunny	is there clojure-toolbox.com like thing for clojurescript?
23:13	danielszmulewicz	https://github.com/shaunxcode/clojurescript-ecosystem/wiki/libraries
23:13	notsonerdysunny	I am new to clojurescript .. what are the alternatives I should consider for shoreleave before picking
23:13	notsonerdysunny	danielszmulewicz: thanks let me check that
23:14	danielszmulewicz	notsonerdysunny: the new rage seems to be all about React. Try Om and Cloact.
23:15	technomancy	I don't know anything about clojurescript, but my guess is that it would depend on what you're trying to do?
23:16	notsonerdysunny	I have actually built a basic widget with cloact .. Now I needed to some communication with the server so was looking what is the right thing to do..
23:16	danielszmulewicz	Transfer edn with core.async?
23:16	notsonerdysunny	mind you I only javascript that clojurescript has taught me I am new to this browser programming thing
23:17	notsonerdysunny	ok let me take a look
23:19	mischov	You might get some ideas googling "clojurescript xhr"
23:25	sreenath	hi
23:25	sreenath	got a question about lein repl stand alone
23:26	sreenath	How can I add jars to lein stand alone repl?
23:26	technomancy	sreenath: you can put them in :plugins, but that's not really what it's for
23:27	sreenath	plugins inside a project you mean
23:27	technomancy	oh, I mean in the :user profile
23:28	sreenath	oh OK.
23:28	sreenath	WHat do you mean that's not really what its for?
23:28	technomancy	well :plugins is for plugins =)
23:29	ryantm	plugins are supposed to modify leiningen not inject code into your clojure env?
23:29	technomancy	it just happens that a standalone repl runs inside Leiningen's process, so anything you tell it is a plugin gets put on the classpath
23:29	sreenath	yes :). Looks like there is no simple way
23:29	technomancy	right; Leiningen is designed for use with projects. you can use it for other things, but that's not the original intention.
23:30	technomancy	maybe the lein-try plugin would help for what you want though
23:30	technomancy	haven't used it myself, but from what I heard it sounds similar
23:31	sreenath	Thanks. I have been playing around with repl for project euler problems. how can I use math dependencies
23:31	sreenath	in repl without project
23:31	technomancy	the simplest thing to do is `lein new euler` and run in that
23:31	sreenath	I just want to use repl lein or the clojure one
23:31	sreenath	OK
23:32	sreenath	But I want to say one thing though. I can't understand why the math functions are not there in core
23:33	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
23:33	sreenath	I mean they are available in other FP languages like Scala etc
23:34	ryantm	technomancy, did you see the GitHub pull req from davidegrayson improving lein help?
23:34	sreenath	Anyway Thanks technomancy
23:35	technomancy	ryantm: yeah; I hope to take a look tomorrow; actually need to sign off for tonight
23:35	ryantm	technomancy, great
23:38	egghead	hm, I have a question about cljs and packaging, you need a different html for dev/release so how is this managed?
23:38	egghead	for example a single js file vs multiple js files
23:38	egghead	I know cljsbuild can give me the different outputs, but how do projects deal with the different html?
23:52	flamingnoms	i'm confused about lazy sequences. When I map symbol to a lazy-sequence of strings from a file, they all turn to symbols. When I map keyword, only the first is a keyword.
23:52	ryantm	egghead, where is your html file coming from right now?
23:52	egghead	ryantm: static html served by ring
23:54	flamingnoms	nvm, its just the behavoir of keyword
23:55	ryantm	egghead, are you using wrap-resource to serve it?
23:56	egghead	ryantm: I am doing this: https://github.com/eggsby/warden/blob/master/src/clj/warden/handler.clj#L9