#clojure – 2014-01-18

2014-01-18

00:00	xuser	ddellacosta: great, thanks
00:00	xuser	deadghost: probably gonna bug you after reading it ;)
00:00	ddellacosta	xuser: my short answer is use closure rather than jquery (jayq), but check out dommy too.
00:02	xuser	ddellacosta: ok, does the closure library and dommy overlap?
00:03	ddellacosta	xuser: no. Domina and Closure do, of course.
00:05	xuser	ddellacosta: ok, so clojure lib and dommy are a nice combo to use
00:07	ddellacosta	xuser: again, it's really about what you are trying to build. For example, if you think you'll want to re-purpose a lot of the UI widgets that Google Closure provides, then it may be nice to just use Google Closure only, or Domina + Closure. If you won't need to lean on any UI widget libs, then dommy may be a better choice, or enfocus if you prefer that approach.
00:08	ddellacosta	xuser: and in the end, if you get familiar with one or the other, it won't be hard picking up another lib, so if you are just trying things out I wouldn't think about it too much--just pick one and go.
00:10	ddellacosta	and this is leaving aside using something like Om or Cloact, which kind of obviate the need for these sorts of dom libs
00:13	xuser	ddellacosta: thanks, I'm just learning JS and DOM but don't want get to deep in JS, just enough to be able to code in cljs with not somethking slowing me down
00:14	ddellacosta	xuser: try dommy. :-)
00:14	kristof	xuser: Om is not Javascript, if it's "deep" in anything, it's Clojurescript. :)
00:14	ddellacosta	yeah, I mean, it's important to note that the approach implied by dom libs like the above and react/om is very different, fundamentally.
00:15	xuser	kristof: yeah, I think I want to focus on om/closure library
00:16	xuser	was asking of closure lib vs jquery, because I don't really want to reinvent all those usefule UI widgets
00:16	xuser	:)
00:17	ddellacosta	xuser: I'm not sure how you would use a google closure widget with Om/React, honestly. Not sure it's possible (in an idiomatic way).
00:18	bbloom	xuser: you may find those widgets much easier to build with react than to repurpose from elsewhere, heh.
00:18	bbloom	especially if you don't want to use their CSS
00:18	xuser	ddellacosta: what's the limitation?
00:19	xuser	bbloom: glad you said then ;) thanks
00:19	ddellacosta	xuser: I'm just honestly not sure if the way that Google Closure UI widgets get render is can fit within the component model that React provides. I mean, it may be possible, I'm honestly not sure.
00:19	ddellacosta	*rendered
00:20	clojurebot	Excuse me?
00:20	bbloom	ddellacosta: it shouldn't be any trouble really, other than requiring you to play the IDisposable game with react's lifecycle events
00:20	xuser	bbloom: I'm going switch my focus to cljs/om/react now :)
00:20	bbloom	ddellacosta: react plays surprisingly nice with other frameworks/widgets/etc as long as they stick to their own respective subtree
00:21	ddellacosta	bbloom: ah, okay. I've yet to dig in seriously to Om/React so I'm still ignorant on that front. This is informative though: https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/examples/jquery-bootstrap/js/app.js
00:21	ddellacosta	bbloom: confirms what you're suggesting.
00:22	ddellacosta	seems pretty clearly to be embedding jquery/bootstrap widgets inside of react components. Interesting.
00:24	xuser	the JS ecosystem is horrible/scary place, it looks like pure Cljs fixes 80% of the 3rd party JS libs
00:25	domino14	how do i escape a quote character?
00:25	domino14	i want to find the " in a string
00:25	domino14	#"\"" doesn't seem to work
00:27	xuser	bbloom: isn't the problem that most frameworks/widgets aren't compatible with the advaced mode of closure compiler?
00:27	bbloom	xuser: yeah, that's an issue
00:27	bbloom	xuser: the bigger issue is that many frameworks like to assume they own the dom
00:27	bbloom	xuser: you'd think that were true of react, but it's not
00:28	bbloom	react only presumes to control a slice of the dom. generally a subtree up until (and including) components it has "rendered" but not including components it doesn't know about... so you can use the mount/unmount events to connect stuff within that sub-sub-dom & react promises not to muck around with it beyond a data-react-id attribute
00:29	domino14	arghhh
00:29	domino14	how do i find a " character in a string
00:30	bbloom	,(re-find #"\"" "x\"y")
00:30	clojurebot	"\""
00:30	bbloom	seems to work fine to me
00:31	bbloom	domino14: maybe you're using re-matches incorrectly?
00:31	bbloom	,(re-matches #".\"." "x\"y")
00:31	clojurebot	"x\"y"
00:31	domino14	,(clojure.string/replace "\"COOKIES#"\"" ""
00:31	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
00:32	domino14	,(clojure.string/replace "\"COOKIES#"\"" ""
00:32	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
00:32	domino14	sorry
00:32	domino14	,(clojure.string/replace "\"COOKIES\"" #"\"" "")
00:32	clojurebot	"COOKIES"
00:32	domino14	,(clojure.string/replace "COOKIES" #"\"" "")
00:32	clojurebot	"COOKIES"
00:32	bbloom	domino14: heh, you're just misinterpreting the output :-)
00:32	domino14	:( sorry
00:32	bbloom	try:
00:32	bbloom	,(println (clojure.string/replace "\"COOKIES\"" #"\"" ""))
00:32	clojurebot	COOKIES\n
00:33	domino14	oh it's my editor that sucks
00:33	bbloom	domino14: strings are quoted when printed as literals :-)
00:33	bbloom	anyway, gnight all
00:33	domino14	i have this: (clojure.string/replace str #"\"" "") and my editor is highlighting everything wrong. i thought sublimetext was good for clojure
00:34	xuser	bbloom: so that stuff you connect within that sub-sub-dom should be code in JS if you are using jquery for example and to pass through the clojure compiler?
00:35	xuser	s/to/not/
00:35	xuser	of he left ;)
00:37	danneu	Isn't :jvm-opts ["-Djava.awt.headless=true"] supposed to prevent this: Exception in thread "main" java.awt.HeadlessException?
00:38	hiredman	danneu: it most likely means you are trying to do something that absolutely requires a head
00:38	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/awt/HeadlessException.html
00:38	clojurebot	Pardon?
00:38	bitemyapp	kristof: reading the Haxl slides, very cool.
00:38	bitemyapp	kristof: the sort of thing I was telling a coworker works a lot better in Haskell.
00:42	xuser	bitemyapp: we have lost you to haskell ;)
00:46	bitemyapp	xuser: yeah, actually.
00:59	marcopolo`	I'm performing an experiment, who uses vim and has a decent amount of clojure on github?
01:42	domino14	is there a way to enumerate a vector with for? like (for [el my_array] ; i want access to the element, and the index of the element
01:48	bja	domino14, (map (fn [i e] ...) (range) my_array)) works with map
01:49	domino14	oh cool didnt know it would take two args
01:50	andrew_fm	,(doc map)
01:50	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
01:50	bja	,(map (fn [i x] [i x]) (range) [:a :b :c])
01:50	clojurebot	([0 :a] [1 :b] [2 :c])
01:51	bja	guess I could just use vector in the example...
02:01	amalloy	,(map-indexed vector '(a b c))
02:01	clojurebot	([0 a] [1 b] [2 c])
02:03	andrew_fm	perhaps the best feature of this channel and of 4clojure is seeing how people pull functions out of the hat that i haven't used before. sure is better than reading a long list of API docs to learn all the various functions.
03:12	hcumberdale	HI :)
03:13	bitemyapp	hcumberdale: hai
03:14	arrdem	I see chare has gotten sick of being hellbanned and moved on to easier targets...
03:15	arrdem	ah crud.
03:15	bitemyapp	arrdem: ?
03:16	arrdem	bitemyapp: how can I change the default shard for a database?
03:16	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm getting stuff on Omniknight (which will go down) an I need Warlock to be the primary.
03:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/ba3K8PF.gif
03:16	arrdem	bitemyapp: yes yes that was all over r/dogecoin
03:17	arrdem	my entire doge collection is worth $1.14....
03:20	bitemyapp	oh my god why are people still messing with DCPU-16?
03:21	bitemyapp	just use a 6502 emulator :\|
03:21	arrdem	good question... they could be inventing their own saner architectures but no we have DCPU-32s...
03:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://www.rethinkdb.com/docs/sharding-and-replication/ ctrl-f "pinning"
03:28	arrdem	bitemyapp: danke
03:29	bitemyapp	arrdem: "default shard" momentarily confused me but I think I've touched on the bit you care about.
03:29	bitemyapp	I like how you immediately clustered your rethinkdb instance for the fuck of it.
03:29	bitemyapp	just lol.
03:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: I mean...
03:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: I know the IT guys here and they give no fucks what I do on network...
03:30	bitemyapp	hey, it's a good thing that it's a clustered data store that actually "just works"
03:30	bitemyapp	I just found it amusing.
03:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah. and that SJW makes my night.
03:30	bitemyapp	arrdem: SJW?
03:31	arrdem	bitemyapp: shit just works
03:31	bitemyapp	oh right, yes.
03:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: well that and the sharding and replication is actually sensible and tuneable.
03:31	bitemyapp	MongoDB? lol, serious deployments have to do the sharding themselves because the 10gen impl is too fucked.
03:32	arrdem	fukkit new mololithic project. I'll just salvage what I can from the wreckage of clojurecup...
03:32	arrdem	and LEIN_IRONIC_JURE can just piss right off
03:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: in Minecraft, is it me or is Equivalent Exchange pretty much grind-to-cheat-mode?
03:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: probably... I'm not familliar with that particular mod
03:40	bitemyapp	arrdem: Now I just need you to use Revise... http://i.imgur.com/btjXhpH.jpg
03:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: dude. chill friggin 10 minutes. I'm digging through a trainwreck of forgotten ideas and clojure code. revise is already in deps, I just need to find the pieces, fix http://i.imgur.com/iw4YuOi.gif and then I can start using your stuff...
03:43	bitemyapp	arrdem: oh I'm chill, just excited :)
03:43	bitemyapp	arrdem: great gif.
03:53	arrdem	yep well that project was a pile of once-off data munging scripts in Clojure...
03:54	locks	danneu: neat :D
04:12	arrdem	I wonder if doing this whole thing in core.typed is reasonable...
04:12	arrdem	single dispatch problem domain...
04:12	arrdem	could be viable.
04:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: you can type-check multimethods too. Sorta.
04:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah but when I've tried that stuff I ran into rough patches even faster...
04:22	arrdem	bitemyapp: r/insert implicitly does a multi if given (U List Vec)?
04:26	arrdem	bitemyapp: also why no -! convention? just because you don't have a mutable global connection?
04:27	bitemyapp	arrdem: pretty much.
04:27	bitemyapp	arrdem: they're not STM operations.
04:27	bitemyapp	arrdem: ! is for STM operations, conventionally.
04:28	bitemyapp	deeply proud of that.
04:32	arrdem	mmmk. I've been using -! for anything with side-effects whether STM or otherwise.
04:32	arrdem	may take this opportunity to change my style..
04:36	bitemyapp	arrdem: yeah I've seen people do the same, but I talked to tbaldridge about it - no dice, not what it's for.
04:37	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's specifically to warn you against using impure functions inside of the !-annotated function whereas it may not matter in the cases you're using them in.
04:37	bitemyapp	if somebody took it too literally, they could be in for same pain :)
04:38	arrdem	bitemyapp: so what's the usage here... I assume I need to compose r/db with r/table before I can execute operations even though the examples don't show this..
04:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: the tests are a good place to poke around.
04:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: just be aware there's a fair bit of partial application and aliasing/wrapping of common-case stuff flying around.
04:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: cbp was thorough :)
04:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: fair warning, the library is 80% cbp's work, I just did the conn mgmt.
04:43	bitemyapp	in about 15 minutes you're going to know more than I do.
04:43	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm just reading the partials trying to decide how cute it is...
04:43	bitemyapp	or sooner,.
04:43	bitemyapp	arrdem: be easier in a typed lang...
04:48	xexonixxexillion	I want to learn clojure, but most of the tutorials seem to be more aimed at people coming from java. Can anyone suggest tutorials for someone coming from common lisp or Haskell (I'm proficient in both)
04:49	bitemyapp	xexonixxexillion: you're proficient in Haskell?
04:50	bitemyapp	xexonixxexillion: you probably just want Joy of Clojure, but either way, shouldn't take much time at all.
04:50	abaranosky	xexonixxexillion: your learnign points will all revolve around the JVM then
04:50	locks	I second JoC
04:50	bitemyapp	xexonixxexillion: abaranosky is right, but Clojure offers some ways to skirt around and avoid having to be confronted with Java-isms all at once.
04:51	bitemyapp	abaranosky: did you really not know about ::?
04:51	abaranosky	I know ::foo, sure
04:51	abaranosky	but if I evaluate ::my.ns/foo in the repl BOOM
04:51	bitemyapp	the namespace has to exist yo.
04:51	bitemyapp	the point of :: is namespace qualification.
04:51	abaranosky	:my.ns/foo is fine though
04:52	bitemyapp	because it's not namespace qualified
04:52	abaranosky	what is it then?
04:52	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
04:52	bitemyapp	:my.ns/foo is basically arbitrary data with the namespace getting destructured out.
04:52	bitemyapp	as a convenience.
04:52	bitemyapp	::my.ns/foo isn't really arbitrary data, it's a namespace qualified keyword that is sorta intended to be a proxy for a var.
04:52	abaranosky	there's a function you can call to get the n of a keyword right?
04:53	bitemyapp	of any keyword, yes
04:53	bitemyapp	but if the namespace OF the keyword doesn't exist then you can't use a namespace qualified keyword, if it's a "logical"
04:53	abaranosky	so I guess I didn't know that
04:53	bitemyapp	rather than "actual" keyword.
04:53	bitemyapp	:: should mean you're referring to a var in a real and in scope namespace.
04:53	abaranosky	I thought that keyword namesapces and regular namespaces were totally orthogonal
04:53	bitemyapp	: is just data.
04:53	bitemyapp	abaranosky: they are...in :
04:54	abaranosky	yeah, right, makes sense
04:54	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I think the idea is to get a less-stringy, compiler-checked way to refer to vars as data.
04:55	abaranosky	oh, interesting.
04:55	bitemyapp	I can't say for sure because I'm not Hickey, but that's the only way I've seen them used.
04:56	abaranosky	I just use them whenever I add a key to someone else's map where I wn't know the keys in the map 200%
04:58	honza	bitemyapp: is there any convention of marking up pure/impure functions?
04:59	bitemyapp	honza: nope. Welcome to Hell.
04:59	abaranosky	I write my impure functions in red
04:59	bitemyapp	abaranosky: no, you use the red ink for Hickey's words.
05:00	abaranosky	I sprin magic elven gold dust on his words, and am transported to a better time, where magic and mystery was the rule of the land
05:02	john2x	what fn do I want to check if an element is in a coll?
05:02	honza	welp
05:02	john2x	I thought it was contains? but it only works on keys
05:02	abaranosky	john2x: depends on the colelction
05:02	bitemyapp	john2x: (partial some #{element})
05:02	abaranosky	stick your data in a set, and call contains?
05:02	abaranosky	if you have any kind of size of data then some sucks
05:03	bitemyapp	you don't need to even do that.
05:03	bitemyapp	sets are functions, you just need to pass it as a function to some.
05:03	abaranosky	bitemyapp: sure
05:03	bitemyapp	I've used some #{} for existential queries against colls ever since Raynes showed me the light
05:04	bitemyapp	10:01 <chare> unmute now or I tell your girlfriend you cheated on her
05:04	bitemyapp	this dude has a seriously optimistic view of my social life.
05:04	bitemyapp	arrdem: ^^
05:04	arrdem	bitemyapp: yep yep
05:04	john2x	thanks
05:05	andrew_fm	lol bitemyapp
05:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: I should break his heart and tell him he's not more interesting than google closure compiler arguments?
05:06	arrdem	bitemyapp: you assume it has a heart, let alone a soul....
05:06	andrew_fm	someone just knocked on my door. but no one was there, then I get back here and this is waiting for me: 6:03 <chare> turn off mute or next time i'll be standing there with something in my hand
05:06	andrew_fm	do you think it would be a bouquet of flowers?
05:06	bitemyapp	LOL
05:07	arrdem	.............
05:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: what if chare turns out to be an omnipotent malevolent multi-dimensional being who is only allowed to unleash his powers when human beings try to silence him?
05:08	bitemyapp	what if by muting him...we've opened pandora's box?
05:08	bitemyapp	#creepypasta
05:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: okay. that I need to compose db -> table-db -> insert should be in the fucking readme file.
05:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: I should not have spent the last 15 reading test cases and grepping the query code.
05:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: PRs accepted by my lazy ass.
05:10	andrew_fm	what is creepy pasta?
05:10	bitemyapp	wait, the README should have a shake-n-bake example
05:10	arrdem	IMHO yes.
05:10	bitemyapp	hum.
05:10	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's in the README
05:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/#insert
05:11	arrdem	bitemyapp: right. you give this insertion example, but r/table implicitly uses the default table, "test".
05:11	arrdem	bitemyapp: sorry. db.
05:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: if you want to change DBs, you have to compose (r/db), (r/table-db) an then as shown.
05:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: why am I lecturing you on your library.
05:12	bitemyapp	arrdem: you're right, the documentation can be made more explicit.
05:12	bitemyapp	arrdem: it was basically "unrolled" out of the test cases.
05:13	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's a 36kb README.md though, that's not shabby at all for a Clojure library.
05:13	bitemyapp	10:08 -!- chare [322f51ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.81.172] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
05:13	bitemyapp	10:09 <chare> god dam nit
05:13	bitemyapp	way too entertaining
05:13	bitemyapp	arrdem: it even covers date/time manipulation!
05:13	arrdem	bitemyapp: hang on.. you left me a raw IP there...
05:14	arrdem	ah fuck. web client.
05:14	arrdem	even I portscan anyway. 1d2
05:14	arrdem	1d2
05:14	clojurebot	2
05:14	andrew_fm	i have successfully rooted chare's machine, i'm digging through his files right now. nothing too interesting yet.
05:14	bitemyapp	andrew_fm: wait what
05:15	arrdem	andrew_fm: ..... wat
05:15	arrdem	bitemyapp: he's still talking to me...
05:16	andrew_fm	chare has the worst firewall protection, and by "worst" i mean "none"
05:16	arrdem	apparently he's in Washington state...
05:16	arrdem	lemme see what I can get with geoip.
05:16	andrew_fm	i will tell you exactly where he lives in a pm, but don't want to do that publicly
05:17	arrdem	he is running Linux... 2.6. I'm probably seeing a network device given the service list I scanned up.
05:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: "likely embedded"
05:20	arrdem	yeah best I can do is Redmond area. The geoip lookup breaks down because the tracerout winds up in ISP owned nonpublic IP ranges...
05:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: redmond? Microsoft intern?
05:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: pretty brutal drop in employee quality :)
05:22	hcumberdale	Had a meeting with MS for startups yesterday :D
05:22	andrew_fm	i'll send you google maps satellite image of his house in pm
05:22	bitemyapp	10:19 <chare> WHY WOULD I EVER WORK FOR FAGGY MICROSOFT
05:22	bitemyapp	hcumberdale: oh their tech lock-in program?
05:23	hcumberdale	Azure looked good. They offer also seed-funding, accelerator and biztalk programs
05:23	hcumberdale	yeah bitemyapp, it seems to be a bit like it
05:23	bitemyapp	hcumberdale: it's not worth it ;)
05:23	hcumberdale	"If you get funding you have to create a company placed in the US, for taxes"
05:23	hcumberdale	... and US law?
05:24	hcumberdale	bitemyapp: he just showed what is possible, not the terms and conditions
05:24	arrdem	<chare> ok what do you want in exchange for unmute [04:09]
05:24	arrdem	<chare> you guys gotta hide behind a proxy [04:11]
05:24	arrdem	<chare> you guys scared to show yourself [04:12]
05:24	arrdem	<chare> YOU GUYS STOP SCANNING ME
05:25	hcumberdale	Just told that people who use some services have to relocate to berlin and thats why ~300 candidates directly reduced to 80
05:25	hcumberdale	"We haven't read terms and conditions, can't move to berlin, sorry"
05:26	hcumberdale	Most startups in their german program don't use the MS technology. Only Azure because of the ability to run Linux, Java and such things from it and they seem to be flexible with their free plan for startups.
05:27	andrew_fm	hcumberdale i was thinking of moving to berlin actually, so what do you mean? however i was there in September and the internet service city-wide is quite bad, espcially for a city known for its tech work
05:28	honza	Enjoying all the Clojure talk this morning.
05:28	hcumberdale	andrew_fm: a lot of startups are dependant on their location. Different problems occur like people are not willing to relocate because of their family. Or they have to do a 2nd job to finance their startup.
05:28	arrdem	bitemyapp: ah I love watching the document count tick up...
05:29	arrdem	bitemyapp: porting from Mongo was a breeze one I figured your crud out.
05:29	andrew_fm	oh you mean, for devs to take jobs with new startups? i thought you mean starting your own startup
05:29	abaranosky	I really like Emacs gist-mode :)
05:30	andrew_fm	berlin is a really interesting city but it is an odd one why their internet is so primitive. lots of complaints about it from guys who normally work in other places.
05:30	andrew_fm	but then again, i actually had a cab driver in berlin who had never seen a credit card before, so go figure.
05:30	hcumberdale	no the M$ stuff is for fresh startups that get free software, free usage of cloud Azure stack (up to 50k$ I think), free education and so on. Funding from 50k$ up to 250k$
05:31	arrdem	hcumberdale: wow MSFT is that desperate to secure users?
05:31	andrew_fm	and it takes 10 minutes to use an atm machine there because the connection is so slow.
05:31	hcumberdale	arrdem: I think they want to get the next billion dollar start-ups running on azure
05:32	arrdem	hcumberdale: this I totally understand... I just find it funny.
05:32	hcumberdale	The ultimate lock-in is gone. Everybody is writing software for android, ios, linux, whatever...
05:32	arr0w	what do you think about typed clojure?
05:32	hcumberdale	arr0w: haven't understood the benefit of it
05:33	hcumberdale	since there are type hints performance shouldn't be the problem
05:33	arrdem	hcumberdale: the advantage of typed clojure is that you can selectively add typechecker backed gurantees to your Clojure code.
05:33	hcumberdale	and where is typesave really helpful? Modern applications just include a lot magic and dependencies to other systems.
05:34	hcumberdale	arrdem: isn't that what type hints are actually doing?
05:34	arrdem	hcumberdale: not at all
05:34	arrdem	hcumberdale: type hints are hints to the compiler about the runtime type so that the emitted classes can use static type dispatch.
05:34	arrdem	hcumberdale: applicable only to gen-classes and java.lang.*
05:35	hcumberdale	so you mean for example it is helpful for refactoring and stuff
05:35	andrew_fm	hcumberdale i think the device-specific tendencies to write for a particular OS will gradually give way over cloud apps, and MSFT understands that. its easier to write a cloud app that both an android and iOS user can access then to manage two codebases. many other advantages also.
05:36	arrdem	hcumberdale: absolutely. the value I've gotten out of my core.typed adventures was entirely when the typechecker called me on not satisfying my own map structure "gurantees", and calling me out when I didn't migrate an entire subsystem between representations.
05:36	hcumberdale	andrew_fm: for MS it is all going down to money. And if they can't be the manufacture of the boat to sccess they are likely want to sit in there :)
05:37	hcumberdale	arrdem: isn't that better covered by tests. All the structural representation is done by some convention since you have so many ways to declare data structs
05:38	khaled	o/
05:38	hcumberdale	To hard-code it might lower agility ^^
05:38	arrdem	hcumberdale: not at all in my experience. tests show that your stuff breaks, the typechecker can provide formal proof that there exists some case (not nessicarily covered by your tests) in which your program will break.
05:39	hcumberdale	arrdem: ok, but at the cost of bad readable hard-to-maintain code
05:39	hcumberdale	look at scala (okay it is more complex with all the OO* stuff)
05:39	arrdem	hcumberdale: right. or at least that's the sales pitch.
05:39	hcumberdale	But the type system makes declarations and everything crazy
05:40	khaled	arrdem: is typed clojure a possible solution, for strong typed?
05:40	arr0w	arrdem when you get errors with typed clojure, at compile time?
05:40	arrdem	arr0w: whenever you invoke the (check-ns) form, usually compile or test time. core.typed is designed to have zero runtime footprint.
05:41	hcumberdale	Static types, reminds me to: http://goo.gl/1cX821
05:43	arr0w	arrdem so you used typed clojure in a real-world application? I guess your code base needs to be relatively large to start seeing the benefits?
05:44	arrdem	arr0w: I've only used core.typed in my hobby clojure code
05:44	arrdem	arr0w: but I've seen the typechecker catch real issues in my designs in programs under 1K lines.
05:45	bitemyapp	arrdem: "I never write code with type errors because I've relabeled type error to mean logic error!"
05:46	bitemyapp	Nothing makes my eyes prolapse and cause me to descend into a red-haze like hearing that.
05:46	bitemyapp	eyes to*
05:49	arrdem	alright... well I could make some effort to parallelize my IRC log scraping, but as everything is ticking over smoothly I think I'll just hit the sack
05:49	arrdem	night all
05:49	arrdem	chare: burn in hell
05:50	hcumberdale	night? :)
05:50	arrdem	hcumberdale: I'm in Texas. it's about 5am here :P
05:50	bitemyapp	sigh, I should sleep.
05:50	abaranosky	core.typed is so verbose though
05:51	bitemyapp	abaranosky: yeah :(
05:51	bitemyapp	abaranosky: Fay and Haskell are short though :)
05:51	abaranosky	yeah, I 've tried it and gave up. :(
05:51	abaranosky	what is Fay?
05:51	bitemyapp	setBGColour :: Text -> JQuery -> Fay JQuery
05:51	arrdem	abaranosky: yeah... it has gotten better thanks to the *> forms, but it still has a significant overhead.
05:51	bitemyapp	abaranosky: Haskell->JS, it's quite nice :)
05:51	abaranosky	I see, googled
05:51	hcumberdale	ahh, good n8 :)
05:52	abaranosky	later
05:54	arr0w	abaranosky it is? doesn't seem too verbose to me. I only looked at simple examples, though
05:55	abaranosky	arr0w: maybe I'm just not used to it?
05:59	ambrosebs	I don't think core.typed will ever be described as succinct ;)
06:00	arr0w	http://adambard.com/blog/core-typed-vs-haskell/
06:01	arr0w	there's some initial plumbing, and in those examples names of the types are longer in core.typed than in haskell, but the actual syntax for declaring function signatures is more or less the same in haskell and typed clojure
06:01	arr0w	verbosity wise
06:04	hcumberdale	Yeah, verbose.
06:04	ambrosebs	compared to Clojure, Typed Clojure is verbosity city. But of course Clojure doesn't give you any guarantees.
06:04	hcumberdale	ambrosebs: who needs compile time guarantees?
06:04	hcumberdale	don't think its such an advantage
06:05	arr0w	well sure, but comparing typed clojure with clojure is not a fair comparison
06:05	ambrosebs	hcumberdale: ok, then don't use the type checker :) a type system is not very interesting for some problems.
06:06	ambrosebs	arr0w: yes, but that's what people want. Clojure syntax, with the guarantees of Typed Clojure.
06:06	ambrosebs	arr0w: which would be pretty awesome.
06:08	arr0w	type inference would be nice.
06:17	arr0w	how does clojure name python's `any' and `all' functions? they take a list of predicates and return true if any or all predicates are true
06:17	arrdem	arr0w: #'clojure.core/some
06:18	andrew_fm	arr0w also every?
06:18	andrew_fm	,(doc every?)
06:18	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
06:18	arr0w	looks like that is it, thanks
06:18	arrdem	core/some just gets my goat because it's a predicate which doesn't conform to the -? convention.
06:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: some and every?
06:19	bitemyapp	er
06:19	andrew_fm	actually some is not a predicate, but it behaves like one. it doesn't have the ? because it is not actually a true predicate
06:19	bitemyapp	aimed at the wrong person
06:19	bitemyapp	AND slow on the draw
06:19	bitemyapp	fuck me
06:19	bitemyapp	might be time to sleep.
06:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: I solved my first mysterious Fay bug!
06:19	arrdem	might be.
06:19	andrew_fm	it returns the value of the predicate function for the first value found, thus it may not be a predicate result
06:19	bitemyapp	wasn't Fay's fault (t'was mine), but I've filed an issue for a potential case where a helpful compiler error would be good.
06:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: woot. I just rewrote my crawler to do 8-wide parallel and it's going like a bat out of hell.
06:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: hahaha, nice.
06:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: I just hope that revise isn't silently loosing async transactions..
06:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: but more seriously, I'm hoping the pipelining makes your clients more efficient.
06:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: you have a client for each thread right?
06:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: async or not?
06:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: all the db accesses are run-async
06:22	arrdem	comming from futures, with a cap at 8 simultaneous futures.
06:22	bitemyapp	arrdem: yeah it should be spewing those inserts at the database then
06:22	arrdem	cool.
06:22	bitemyapp	arrdem: run-async behavior is roughly "throw it over the fence and PIPELINE LIKE A MADDAFAKKA" mode.
06:22	bitemyapp	but the error handling is more manual.
06:23	arrdem	ah. bugger. I seem to have killed my crawler.
06:23	bitemyapp	technically the synchronous mode is still sorta-async and pipelined behind the scenes but the direct caller is forced to wait and confront any errors.
06:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: cheers.
06:48	ggherdov	Hello. I am familiar with writing (basic) Rails webapps, I mean the routing mechanism and the Model View Controller paradigm. Is Luminus much different? is it MVC as well, somehow?
07:02	quizdr	ggherdov also take a look at Pedestal. i've not used either one but am curious about the differences between them. i'm just now starting to explore web developmet in clojure.
07:11	ggherdov	quizdr: thanks for the the tip. My plan is to follow the book that came out this summer, now in beta
07:11	quizdr	the prag pub web dev book?
07:11	ggherdov	http://pragprog.com/book/dswdcloj/web-development-with-clojure
07:11	ggherdov	yep
07:11	quizdr	that is no longer in beta
07:12	quizdr	it has gone to print
07:12	ggherdov	ah !
07:12	quizdr	i just got it myself
07:14	ggherdov	ah yes I have this "beta 6", which is actually the final thing -- I actually pourchased the PDF a week ago)
08:53	pepijndevos	How can I implement an Atom il
08:53	pepijndevos	n clojure
08:54	pepijndevos	I mean, atom uses AtomicReference which uses unsafe private java magic.
08:56	pepijndevos	I want an atom that works with a revision instead of a reference, and wonder if there is a better way than naive lockh
08:58	pjstadig	pepijndevos: not sure what you mean? you can use AtomicReference
09:00	pepijndevos	pjstadig, I want to do (compare-and-set! atom rev newval) => newrev
09:01	pjstadig	you could have the atom contain a vector [rev val]
09:02	pjstadig	pepijndevos: you could also directly use java.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicStampedReference
09:04	pepijndevos	that has compareAndSet(V expectedReference, V newReference, int expectedStamp, int newStamp), I want compareAndSet(V newReference, int expectedStamp, int newStamp)
09:06	pepijndevos	In other words, no expectedReference.
09:06	pjstadig	i guess i still don't understand what you want, but I think you could use clojure's atom and swap! with the atom's value being a vector of values
09:06	pjstadig	in the swap function you can decide what to update and when
09:10	pepijndevos	I guess I could do compareAndSet(getReference() , V newReference, int expectedStamp, (inc getStamp()))
09:22	sundbp	I made PR for the small changes I have in my local repo relating to using messaging+xa with an injected XA manager outside of container.
09:23	sundbp	I'm not sure it's complete but the changes should stand up on their own logic even if partial.
09:42	pepijndevos	If you apply the rules for a heap and a search tree, you get a linked list, right?
10:07	corecode	is there an easy way to do cljs+node.js+emacs+repl?
10:07	corecode	or should i be inquiring elsewhere?
10:08	xeqi	corecode: you'd want to look at https://github.com/cemerick/austin#project-repls
10:10	corecode	xeqi: that seems to be for browser-based cljs, no?
10:11	xeqi	corecode: it should be able to do either. repl-env for brepl, exec-env for standalone
10:11	xeqi	https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/austin.clj#L452
10:12	corecode	it keeps talking about browser-repl, that's what confuses me
10:49	rovar	are comments allowed in edn?
10:52	kzar	; this is a comment rovar
10:52	kzar	and there's a reader macro to comment a s-exp that I forget
10:52	kzar	Oh it's #_
10:53	kzar	,(+ 1 2 3 #_4)
10:57	hyPiRion	kzar: uh, in edn?
10:58	hyPiRion	I'm certain #_ is not allowed, and I guess ; isn't either
10:58	RickInAtlanta	,(+ 1 2)
10:58	clojurebot	3
10:58	RickInAtlanta	,(+ 1 2 #_(+ 1 2))
10:59	TimMc	hyPiRion: What? That would suck.
10:59	xeqi	,(clojure.edn/read "#_ 1 1")
11:00	TimMc	hyPiRion: No, both are supported.
11:00	hyPiRion	TimMc, kzar, rovar: Ignore me, I thought edn was json-like in that regard
11:00	TimMc	Unlike JSON. What a bad decision.
11:00	hyPiRion	yeah
11:00	RickInAtlanta	but it seems like the bot isn't evaluating any forms that have #_ anywhere in them
11:01	xeqi	RickInAtlanta: I think it died
11:01	TimMc	&(clojure.edn/read "#_ 1 1")
11:01	RickInAtlanta	,(+ 1 2)
11:01	clojurebot	3
11:02	hyPiRion	TimMc, xeqi: read requires a reader
11:02	hyPiRion	read-string on the other hand
11:02	xeqi	hyPiRion: right, should be read-string
11:04	TimMc	lazybot is dead :-(
11:04	xeqi	Raynes: ^
11:08	paulswilliamsesq	Hiya, if there's any Lighttable users in here, what themes do you use for clojure dev? Something that highlights the nested parens and contents thereof?
11:12	kzar	paulswilliamsesq: Not sure but I thought the same thing, I found the default theme quite dark but didn't see any others in the directory
11:12	kzar	oh I tell a lie, I think I found one other one that was quite dark as well
11:12	paulswilliamsesq	kzar: I'm trying ibdknox which seems okay but like something a little bolder
11:13	kzar	(Personally I'd like a theme + improved emacs plugin to match emacs as much as possible superficially)
11:14	kzar	I'm guessing it will come with time, early days
11:19	paulswilliamsesq	kzar: absolutely. I'm normally a vim user, and love vim-fireplace but Lighttable really does seem awesome.
11:20	kzar	paulswilliamsesq: Yea, it has a lot of potential, especially with the plugin api coming out. Can think of loads of good ideas... markdown preview plugin, mergetool plugin, etc etc
11:23	paulswilliamsesq	kzar: yeah, I'd like to see some ability to share a session to enable remote pairing... would be great to support me learning clojure..
11:46	mrhanky	how can i check for keywords as arguments?
11:47	mrhanky	(foo args :bar true)
11:51	bbloom	mrhanky: in most cases, you should just pass a map instead of unwrapping kwargs, but if you must, you can simply use destructuring in your arg list after &
11:51	bbloom	,((fn [& {:as x}] x) :foo 1 :bar 2)
11:51	clojurebot	{:foo 1, :bar 2}
11:51	mrhanky	i'm on clojurescript and have a script which uses (spit f c :append true)
11:52	mrhanky	i already have a function called spit, now i only need to handle the case ":append true"
11:52	bbloom	mrhanky: i just showed you ^^
11:52	mrhanky	oh :D
12:18	xnil	,'test
12:18	clojurebot	test
12:27	xnil	is clojurebot open-source?
12:33	xeqi	xnil: https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
12:58	danneu	If I wanted to remove a uniqueness constraint in Datomic, would I just retract the db/unique
13:07	gtrak	tpope: I had to include cljs.core in every ns for it work, does that answer your question?
13:07	gtrak	tpope: I'm not sure if I pushed that into cljs-complete yet.
13:08	xnil	xeqi: thank you very much.
13:46	effy	hi, is there a up to date reference post somewhere about which plugin to use (and how) in emacs for clojure?
13:48	kzar	effy: You want to use nrepl and cider probably https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider
13:49	kzar	The readme there is pretty damn good and links to tutorials so maybe give that a read?
13:50	scape	anyone using korma?
13:50	scape	I want to retrieve queries without it being a vector or seq, limit 1 does not seem to do this. I end up with many (first) statements
13:51	scape	as in: (:token(first(:device(first(select player (with device ...
13:52	effy	kzar: thanks, i am :)
14:03	effy	kzar: cider seems effectively pretty damn complete
14:03	kzar	effy: Yea I hadn't done any clojure for a while, previously it was swank only pretty much. Came back to it again recently and, yea, I was impressed too
14:03	kzar	much nicer having proper tools :)
14:04	effy	i was expecting to be redirected to slim with some kind of tweaks to make it less cl and more clj
14:06	kzar	effy: Also if you've not seen it before Light Table is looking really promising although IMHO not a replacement for emacs yet
14:07	koreth_	Have you used Light Table on nontrivial projects? I'm skeptical about its navigation abilities past the handful-of-source-files level but I haven't actually worked on a large Clojure code base yet.
14:07	effy	kzar: i'm not willing to switch my text editor
14:08	kzar	koreth_: No I haven't. I've just been playing with it here and there last week or so. I did actually try opening a project I'm helping with at work and the navigation stuff fell a bit flat now that you mention it
14:09	kzar	koreth_: I was looking for a file called api.py or api.js (I forget) but that was matching crap loads of other files. I was likely doing seomthing wrong though
14:09	kzar	I actually struggled to find the file at all until I typed most of the path in
14:09	kzar	but I'm sure stuff like that will be sorted out as it develops
14:10	dnolen	koreth_: LT is programmed in LT, so I think it can handle big projects OK
14:10	koreth_	Yeah, it's still changing fast.
14:10	kzar	My guess is that it will supersede emacs at some point
14:10	kzar	so I want to be ready I guess, + it's cool to play with
14:10	koreth_	Also, LT is not itself what I'd call a "big" project, thinking about the size of some of the enterprise Java code I've worked on -- think thousands of source files, not tens.
14:11	dnolen	koreth_: Clojure(Script) projects don't get big in the same way.
14:12	koreth_	They will if Clojure takes off, I think. Right now Clojure isn't being used for that class of problem. Or are you saying there's a fundamental reason for that?
14:12	locks	I’m with dnolen in that there’s a fundamental reason for that
14:12	bbloom	koreth_: i think it's wrong to assume the problems are any different
14:12	kzar	dnolen: to be fair though if Light Table needs to support Java etc projects if it is to replace emacs
14:12	dnolen	koreth_: people have been using Clojure for 6 years now on big production projects
14:12	kzar	arg I accidentally a word there, you know what I mean hopefully
14:12	dnolen	koreth_: most big projects are 50-75K. I've only heard of one around 150K.
14:14	koreth_	I mean, take one (completely implausible) example: write Facebook in Clojure, and I don't mean "a social networking site with a handful of Facebook-like features," I mean the entire thing. No way is that going to be 150K.
14:14	bbloom	dnolen: i can't even imagine what i'd do with 150k lines of clojure. it's just bad design afaict. i've worked on multi million line C#/C++/Java code bases & it's almost always just 90% useless shit
14:14	dnolen	koreth_: I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1/2 that size.
14:14	Jii_	10% of 10 million lines is still 1 million lines ;)
14:15	lvh	I wonder how well datomic would fare :)
14:15	dnolen	lvh: Datomic is also not very big from what I've heard.
14:17	locks	I wonder how much is class declaration boiletplate O:)
14:17	locks	*how much of those projects
14:18	bbloom	locks: it's all getters and setters :-P
14:18	bbloom	& i've never met a setter i like
14:18	lvh	dnolen: Oh, no, I'm not talking about Datomic's own size; I'm wondering how well it would work to put all of the data Facebook produces into Datomic.
14:18	bbloom	lvh: lol it wouldn't. at least not a single instance, that's for sure
14:19	lvh	Sure, I doubt a single instance of anything would :)
14:19	coventry	Wasn't there some bank in Ireland who claimed their clojure code base was hundreds of thousands of lines?
14:19	bbloom	i dunno why people brag about the (large) size of their code bases
14:19	bbloom	i'd brag about how little there was :-P
14:20	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: yeah, exactly
14:20	bbloom	half the time too you get these huge systems that have lots and lots of hard coded business logic in a general purpose language
14:20	coventry	These guys, I think: https://github.com/AvisoNovate I think someone from there mentioned it here.
14:20	locks	bbloom: stockholm syndrome
14:20	locks	bbloom: “see, it’s THIS big of a mess and it’s still working!!1!"
14:20	locks	or maybe they think they’re bragging how little it is?
14:20	koreth_	Not sure it's bragging (in all cases), just describing reality. The fact is that there are large code bases, so you want to look for tools that can handle them. Whether the large code base is a good or a bad thing doesn't matter.
14:21	bbloom	i've seen things that are like 10M lines of java & it should be 50k lines of java and all the rest should be in some UI built by some accountant & code reviewed by a dev
14:21	bbloom	most people just can't be trusted with a general purpose language :-P
14:21	bbloom	especially not most programmers!
14:21	dnolen	koreth_: I think I can go out on limb and say Clojure was designed specifically to be anti-large codebase from the ground up.
14:22	koreth_	I actually think that's going to be a big use case for Clojure. Build a little DSL and give it to your designers or finance people.
14:22	koreth_	I know one company that tried to migrate to Scala and it fell flat because their designers couldn't handle the complexity.
14:23	bbloom	koreth_: the scala compiler developers can't handle the complexity, what chance have mere mortals got?
14:23	lvh	koreth_: Why is Clojure so much better at making DSLs?
14:23	coventry	Get out of my head, bbloom
14:23	lvh	koreth_: I've made DSLs with Python. With a parser generator :)
14:23	bbloom	lvh: you don't have to (read: probably shouldn't) write a new grammar to get a new DSL
14:23	koreth_	Of course, you can build DSLs in anything, but in Clojure they aren't a separate thing, they're just Clojure code that uses your custom macros.
14:24	koreth_	So your debugger and such can treat them as first-class language constructs.
14:24	bbloom	in fact, you should do syntax LAST & work backwards from the minimal expression as data, since 99% of the the time you need a UI of some sort for non-programmer domain-experts to work with
14:27	kzar	dnolen: bit offtopic but I'm following the react tutorial without using JSX and I had a question. How do I create a react element with multiple children? Just set the value of children to an array of things instead of a single one?
14:28	dnolen	kzar: an array yes, but you need to give each child a React key if you do.
14:28	dnolen	kzar: I believe that will be done for you if you use varargs
14:28	dnolen	kzar: React.DOM.div(null, x, y, z)
14:28	tpope	gtrak: yeah it did seem to be an issue related to that
14:29	kzar	dnolen: null being potentially the object with things like className?
14:29	dnolen	kzar: it's call props, but yes
14:29	dnolen	s/call/called
14:30	kzar	OK ty
14:32	coventry	dnolen: Would it make sense for om/build to error out if its cursor arg doesn't satisfy the ICursor protocol? We got a cryptic reactjs error message yesterday because we passed in nil.
14:33	dnolen	coventry: it does error out
14:35	arrdem	'mornin
14:40	coventry	dnolen: Ah, it comes after the reactjs error message. Thanks.
14:41	dnolen	coventry: yep
14:44	mathrick	hi, how do I make an empty sequence of the same type as the given one?
14:44	mathrick	specifically, I'm looking at http://www.4clojure.com/problem/23
14:45	mathrick	and cons makes it easy to extend the sequence element-wise, but I don't know how to seed it
14:45	bbloom	(doc empty)
14:45	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil"
14:45	mathrick	oh
14:45	mathrick	thanks
14:45	kzar	,(conj () [1])
14:45	clojurebot	([1])
14:46	kzar	hmm
14:46	kzar	ignore that ^^
14:46	edw	kzar: Were you thinking `concat`?
14:46	bbloom	mathrick: also worth grepping http://clojure.org/cheatsheet or using find-doc in your repl. try (doc find-doc)
14:46	kzar	edw: No, I clicked the 4clojure link, saw my solution and was trying to remember how it worked without giving away the answer to mathrick
14:47	edw	Ah.
14:47	mathrick	bbloom: I was using clojuredocs.org, but I missed empty taking an argument
14:47	edw	mathrick: There's also a helm-based Clojure cheat sheet in Emacs.
14:47	mathrick	helm is unfortunately horrible
14:48	bbloom	mathrick: sadly, clojuredocs.org is kinda old. it's 1.3 but 1.5.1 is out and 1.6 is on the way soon
14:48	mathrick	one day I will find a better replacement, probably involving ido/icicles
14:48	bbloom	mathrick: should be sufficient for 4clojure-ing though
14:48	edw	mathrick: but I lose my double-sided 2-up paper copy of my cheat sheet from time to time.
14:49	mathrick	also, kinda unrelated, but how do you make an updateable closure, the way (let ((counter 0)) (lambda () (incf counter))) works in Common Lisp? I assume the answer involves Vars somehow?
14:49	mathrick	edw: I was commenting only on helm, not on the validity of having docs inside emacs :)
14:50	locks	bbloom: why does clojuredocs seem to have “died out”?
14:50	edw	mathrick: No prob. Re: your Q: Yes, you'd use `atom` along with `deref` `reset!` etc.
14:50	bbloom	locks: no clue
14:51	bbloom	other folks here may have more info, i dunno anything about it
14:51	locks	oh ok
14:51	locks	it’s a shame, because the core docs are very terse
14:51	edw	mathrick: That is, if you want to transliterate from Scheme or CL.
14:51	kzar	Yea I end up using it a lot
14:51	coventry	dnolen: Still, the om/build stacktrace is a lot more transparent with a (cursor-check cursor) at the top of om/build. Without it, I don't see the offending om/build call in the stacktrace at all.
14:52	mathrick	edw: what'd be the clojure way to do it? I was thinking about take-nth, which needs to keep track of "every nth"
14:52	edw	Hold on, I'll type something up...
14:52	ianeslick	mathrick - any state object would work, such as an Atom, Ref, or Var
14:53	kzar	mathrick: You can eval (source take-nth) to see how it works fyi
14:54	dnolen	coventry: open a issue please, it's a simple enhancement
14:55	coventry	Sure.
14:58	edw	mathrick: Check this counter source out: <https://www.refheap.com/24775>
14:58	mathrick	edw: thanks
14:59	edw	mathrick: That said, that's an idiomatic Clojure expression of an un-idomatic Clojure approach to solving the problem.
14:59	edw	Aften you'd just want to use `range`.
14:59	mathrick	edw: yeah, I get that in the specific case of take-nth, you can just drop everything but nth item
14:59	edw	s/Aften/Often/
15:00	mathrick	ah
15:04	bbloom	edw: why are you using partial in that swap! call? swap! takes varargs
15:05	bbloom	and + is (effectively) commutative
15:06	bbloom	also, i think that's bugged under concurrent use....
15:06	bbloom	two different readers could deref at the same time
15:06	bbloom	if you start with (atom (- x step)) then you can use the return value of swap! directly without having to deref
15:11	coventry	I guess it shows the strength of the design that all my other Exceptions so far happened outside of an om/build.
15:11	kristof	bitemyapp: Yes, the Haxl stuff is VERY cool. Can you name any scenarios in your work where it would have been useful?
15:12	kristof	Structuring computation in such a manner
15:14	bitemyapp	kristof: well, yes, in analysis of clickstream data.
15:15	kristof	bitemyapp: Is that inherently asynchronous?
15:15	bitemyapp	kristof: something simpler than Hadoop but will parallel would've been really nice.
15:15	bitemyapp	kristof: we also had a number of async operations and data dependencies on the API layer that would've been nicer with a better way to express asynchronicity.
15:16	kristof	bitemyapp: What language?
15:16	kristof	bitemyapp: I believe you use Clojure at work, don't you?
15:17	bitemyapp	kristof: I use Python and Clojure at work right now, even split.
15:17	bitemyapp	kristof: at the time I'm thinking of, we were using Python and C++
15:17	kristof	bitemyapp: Well that's an easy way to get white hairs
15:17	bitemyapp	and neither were particularly nice for managing asynchronicity or parallelism.
15:17	kristof	python DOESN'T manager parallelism :P
15:18	bitemyapp	wasn't a happy time in my life.
15:18	kristof	*manage
15:18	bitemyapp	well, fork, but yeah.
15:18	bitemyapp	Python is so slow parallelism can't save you anyway./
15:18	kristof	hahahahaha
15:18	kristof	bitemyapp: The problem with Python is that they actually just... wanted Lisp.
15:19	kristof	Or if syntax was a concern, then maybe they could have tried to resurrect Open Dylan
15:20	kristof	bitemyapp: That Haxl presentation irritated me with its "new slide for every addition of information" philosophy. As if the factor of incremental surprise were so monumentally important :)
15:24	locks	kristof: good thing that open dylan is being ressurected then :}
15:24	kristof	mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
15:25	bitemyapp	kristof: Lisp/Dylan isn't what Guido wanted, he's too fucking ignorant for that.
15:26	bitemyapp	kristof: the slides were designed for a presentation, I'm afraid. But I hate that too.
15:26	edw	bbloom: Huh? What should I have used? Something like thi? #(+ step %) I don't think this is a big deal.
15:26	bbloom	(doc swap!)
15:27	bbloom	,(let [a (atom 0)] (swap! a + 5))
15:27	edw	I am familiar with swap!.
15:27	bbloom	&(let [a (atom 0)] (swap! a + 5))
15:27	clojurebot	eval service is offline
15:27	edw	Ah, duh.
15:27	bbloom	seriously? wtf?
15:27	bbloom	both our bots are on vacation?
15:27	bbloom	lame.
15:27	clojurebot	5
15:27	bitemyapp	wtf
15:27	bbloom	sigh clojurebot you slacker
15:27	edw	And + takes &args too...
15:28	bbloom	&(let [a (atom {:foo 0})] (swap! a update-in [:foo] + 5))
15:28	edw	Sorry about that. Brain fart.
15:28	bbloom	^^ gotta love that :-)
15:28	bbloom	,(let [a (atom {:foo 0})] (swap! a update-in [:foo] + 5))
15:28	clojurebot	{:foo 5}
15:28	bbloom	there we go bot
15:28	ivan	&{Float/NaN 1 Float/NaN 2}
15:29	amalloy	$mail lazybot plz wake up
15:30	RickInAtlanta	lazybot: orm
15:31	kristof	bitemyapp: I'm more and more surprised at how chaining together computations by using monads accomplishes a lot of what I'd usually just string together in a macro
15:33	bbloom	kristof: frankly, i think both haskell & clojure fail miserably for the sort of thing the Haxl project is trying to do
15:33	kristof	bbloom: Haxl does a lot of things, which are you referring to?
15:34	bitemyapp	there's a lot of surface area and lot of Haskell seems to be shining through nicely, especially typeclasses.
15:34	bbloom	kristof: in particular, i'm talking about how they dismissed their current program-as-data approach b/c it relies on an interpreter & they wanted the benefit of ghc's quality implementation
15:34	bbloom	kristof: i think that writing an interpreter is the "obvious" and sensible solution. the complaint i have is that nothing out there makes it all that pleasant to make that fast
15:35	bbloom	we have great general purpose programming languages, but our meta programming tools are, frankly, utter shit still
15:35	locks	hear hear.
15:35	kristof	I would not call Lisp's metaprogramming "shit", but I consider homoiconicity and metaprogramming to be a relatively unexplored realm.
15:35	bbloom	I think it's particularly unnatural to encode the dataflow in to a monad or applicative
15:35	kristof	oh, uh
15:35	kristof	well ok :P
15:36	bbloom	because those force pipelining in a way that is against the grain of the nature of the problem
15:36	kristof	But yes, I think the proper word to describe metaprogramming is "naive"; Lisp metaprogramming essentially reduces down to complex manipulation of lists. Which is useful, but you can do more to describe code than "lisp"
15:36	kristof	bbloom: Incorrect. They allow pipelining in a situation where it was wanted but previously unattainable.
15:37	kristof	I'm sorry, I meant "you can do more to describe code than "lists with other lists in them"
15:37	bbloom	kristof: i disagree, but give me a moment to disagree intelligently
15:40	kristof	bbloom: go for it brother
15:41	Profpatsch	So I’ve got (defmacro foo [& args] (let [x (filter something args)] …))
15:41	bbloom	kristof: ok so i'm looking at slide 42 and 43 of 86
15:42	bitemyapp	I don't really mind incremental developments, and as far as incremental developments go, expressing data dependencies and pipelining in terms of monads and applicatives is a pretty big improvement in almost all respects over everything prior/extant (such as async/await in C#)
15:42	Profpatsch	How do I make it so that args isn’t called?
15:42	Profpatsch	How do I quote args? 'args doesn’t work in that context.
15:42	bbloom	kristof: essentially what's happening is that that Haxl internally is relying on the compiler/runtime machinery of the IO monad to build & optimize a dataflow graph
15:42	bbloom	kristof: because applicative <*> is binary, some structure is lost and must be recovered
15:43	coventry	Profpatsch: Do you want to backquote the entire let, and unquote args? It's not completely clear what you want the macro to do.
15:43	bbloom	kristof: you want a variadic abstraction for parallelism
15:44	Profpatsch	coventry: I just want to bind parts of args to some variables in the beginning with let, later in the macroe there is a `(defn …)
15:44	bitemyapp	In spite of that, there's a lot people need to learn from Haxl about structuring these kinds of problems.
15:44	bbloom	kristof: on slide 43, you can't clearly see the problem b/c of operator syntax. if you add all the extra parens, you'll note that the shape (<> is (<> kinda (<*> like this)))
15:44	bitemyapp	seriously, compare with things like async/await, almost entirely unstructured and unprincipled way of doing asynchronous processing.
15:44	coventry	Profpatsch: You may not want to quote it at all,
15:44	coventry	in that case.
15:45	bbloom	kristof: lifting further masks the problem
15:45	kristof	bitemyapp: Well, it doesn't enforce structure, which is still bad but different than just being default unstructured.
15:45	bitemyapp	kristof: right.
15:45	coventry	It won't be evaluated in that (filter)
15:46	kristof	bbloom: Let me pull up the slides again so I can grok your criticisms in cotext
15:46	kristof	*context
15:46	bbloom	kristof: it's absolutely amazing to me how well GHC can optimize these sorts of things, but personally, i rather get the shape of the dependency tree as data. what if i wanted to graph it? in haskell, i'd have to create an alternative instance of the applicative w/o the IO and have it construct a data structure.. but my data structure would be totally the wrong shape & i'd be stuck having to untangle it without the help of GHC's internals
15:46	bbloom	:-(
15:47	Profpatsch	coventry: Yes, because atm when I do (foo :y :z {:a 42}) args is inserted as (:y :z {:a 42}) and what I’m left with at runtime is {:a 42} (which is the result of evaluating that keyword call).
15:48	bitemyapp	The ways in which I could think of code-as-data being useful here are pretty much entirely unexplored and the existing mechanisms for doing so are completely unstructured (macros)
15:48	kristof	bbloom: That sounds like "I have a thing wrapped in some context and I want to parse the thing but also using the context as an argument" sounds a lot like you want a comonad.
15:48	coventry	Profpatsch: Still not clear what you want foo to do.
15:48	bitemyapp	kristof: sounds more like a free monad to me.
15:48	kristof	And a monad that is also a comonad is... a Hopf Algebra!~
15:48	bitemyapp	kristof: from the perspective of a late-bound context/computation projected onto the structure after the fact.
15:49	bitemyapp	there's a particular Haskell programmer who makes quite a go of Free Monads all over the place and the reason is code-as-data.
15:49	kristof	bitemyapp: There is some nontrivial connection between free monads and Hopf algebras, I think
15:49	bbloom	kristof: my concern is irrespective of context
15:49	bitemyapp	the reason most other people don't do it? can't be arsed, don't get enough leverage, etc.
15:49	bbloom	kristof: think about what's happening internally w/ the applicative & monadic machinery
15:49	bitemyapp	but for people who want to decomplect code-data/structure from "interpretation" free monads are pretty sweet.
15:50	bbloom	kristof: monads are worse offenders than applicatives, since applicatives can create arbitrary tree shapes and monads can only make lists
15:50	bbloom	kristof: i can make an instance of monad (or applicative) that doesn't do anything side effecty, just returns a tree (or list or whatever)
15:50	bitemyapp	well that's not true at all.
15:51	bitemyapp	https://dl.dropbox.com/u/828035/Monads/monads.pdf
15:51	bbloom	bitemyapp: yes, you're right, you can make any shape you want, but not if you want the shape to be isomorphic to the code's control flow
15:51	bbloom	bitemyapp: of course i can treat it like arbitrary state and make any shape, duh. that's not the point i'm making
15:51	bitemyapp	the grafting part is what interests me about trees in this case.
15:52	bbloom	they haxl ppl are trying to take normal looking applicative code & make it stay normal looking but do caching, distribution, parallelism, etc
15:52	Profpatsch	coventry: I don’t think that it matters for the problem, but I want a macro (component comp :x :y :foo :bar {:opt 4 :opt2 10}) which returns a function (comp [x y foo bar & args) with opt and opt2 being optional arguments with default values 4 and 10.
15:52	bitemyapp	I don't doubt for instance that they're stressing the abstraction, but I still think it's very interesting and worth exploring further.
15:52	bbloom	i can encode an arbitrary interpreter in to a monad, of course
15:52	bbloom	and can produce arbitrary data as a result
15:52	bitemyapp	And I haven't seen anything in any other language that is remotely as interesting.
15:52	bbloom	but i have to go through a linearization process first & hence lose structure
15:52	bitemyapp	for this particular subject.
15:52	Profpatsch	coventry: *returns a function (defn comp [x y foo bar & args] …)
15:53	Profpatsch	coventry: So my marco starts with (defmacro component [name & props] …)
15:54	bitemyapp	hrm. tensor category products. I'm in the fucking weeds now.
15:54	Profpatsch	coventry: And I need to filter out the keywords and the list at the end (if it is there) from props.
15:54	bbloom	kristof: do you understand my point about the shape of monad or applicative? ie i have to encode my code in to cons cells
15:54	bbloom	kristof: essentially :-P
15:55	KnightRiderTheme	AimHere, why do you hate me?
15:55	bitemyapp	fuck now I have to listen to the Knight Rider theme
15:56	bbloom	kristof: anyway, i understand that's not really a big deal b/c of lifting both arguments & type inference doing some voodoo to drag the implicit applicative instance through the whole computation, but it just seems like the hard way to go about it
15:56	kristof	bbloom: What would you have done instead? You have homoiconicity in Clojure and there's nothing stopping you from writing applicative and monads in it (many people do it!)
15:57	bbloom	kristof: i think they did the right thing originally
15:57	bitemyapp	I probably like Fluokitten more than anybody else present, but still, yick.
15:57	coventry	Profpatsch: Yeah, maybe it doesn't. I still don't understand what your question is.
15:57	bbloom	kristof: they created a data structure... all they had to do was replace `foo bar` with `Foo Bar`
15:57	bbloom	kristof: the shape stayed the same
15:58	Profpatsch	coventry: How do I use & args in a macro as a quoted list?
15:58	kristof	bbloom: I see.
15:58	bbloom	kristof: the problems are 1) they had to write their own interpreter, which is only a big deal b/c naive interpreters are slow, but there is lots of research to make naive interpreters fast and....
15:58	bbloom	kristof: 2) the haskell compiler fights you on that, b/c now you're doing type level computation instead of term level
15:58	Profpatsch	coventry: That is, something that doesn’t get evaluated at compilation time.
15:58	kristof	PyPy is a good example of how to make naive-interpreters fast :)
15:58	edw	Profpatsch: Perhaps if you showed as a couple sample data structures, and the transformations you were hoping to effect i.e. the desired end results.
15:58	bbloom	kristof: indeed
15:58	bitemyapp	well if you want nicer type-level computation there's always Agda and Idris :)
15:59	bbloom	bitemyapp: i don't want a distinction between type and term languages
15:59	bbloom	i've made my position quite clear on that :-P
15:59	bitemyapp	or kinds. or sorts.
15:59	kristof	bbloom: I don't want to side-track but if you haven't already read the paper, you can theoretically make Python as fast as C# by generating a JIT compiler which outputs .NET bytecode, which the .NET compiler analyzes after (they call it "JIT Layering", I think it's exciting)
15:59	bbloom	kristof: i've studied the pypy stuff a bit. it's good shit
16:00	kristof	:)
16:00	bbloom	i'm also betting on abstract interpretation
16:00	kristof	Not sure what that is
16:00	kristof	links welcome
16:00	bitemyapp	kristof: you need a wobbles hand action next to that.
16:00	kristof	?
16:00	coventry	Profpatsch: OK, I get it now: (defmacro a [& args] `'~args) (a foo bar baz)
16:00	bitemyapp	kristof: Python-as-fast-as-C#
16:00	bbloom	kristof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_interpretation is a reasonable intro. normal wikipedia caveats apply
16:01	bitemyapp	kristof: you can probably write Python code intentionally "nice" for the JIT but the way I see people use Python is too chunky to be that nice.
16:01	bitemyapp	kristof: dict all the thiiiiings
16:01	kristof	bitemyapp: they unbox the things that don't necessarily need to be dicts in the first place
16:01	bitemyapp	kristof: Python is much faster if you structure your data in terms of classes/objects and avoid getattr/setattr.
16:02	bbloom	kristof: anyway, i hope i've made at least one compelling argument for why maybe it's not such a great idea to encode arbitrary computations via lifting :-)
16:02	bitemyapp	kristof: yeah but you can't really unbox the dicts without static analysis, I'm pretty sure.
16:02	Profpatsch	edw: coventry: Simple: (defmacro foo [& args] args) (foo :a {:a 42})) should return (:a {:a 42}) but it returns 42.
16:02	bitemyapp	kristof: you're basically converting dicts into records.
16:02	bitemyapp	I can think of easier ways to use get records.
16:02	kristof	bbloom: I'm not sure I'm convinced yet. You argument is essentially that monadic/applicative computation is not structure preserving, which is useful when you need structure.
16:02	coventry	Profpatsch: My example meets that criterion.
16:03	kristof	bitemyapp: PyPy is written in a statically analyzable subset of Python
16:03	Profpatsch	coventry: Thanks, works like a charm!
16:04	coventry	np
16:04	bbloom	kristof: that's my argument, but further that properties of abstractions (such as structure) are useful for reasoning (and hence correctness, optimization, etc) and therefore it is unwise to discard those properties up front, especially if you have a perfectly workable solution that doesn't disregard those properties except in the sense that it may not yet utilize them
16:04	bitemyapp	kristof: I know, but that's no longer Python.
16:04	bitemyapp	kristof: I'm not trying to be pedantic, just trying to speak to the realities of using JIT interpreters for languages like Python.
16:04	kristof	That's true, bitemyapp
16:05	bitemyapp	kristof: my point is that if you use a language with better defaults, better opportunities for static analysis arise.
16:05	Profpatsch	But I don’t quite understand it. You are quoting everything with `, then unqote args with ~ and then quote it again with '. Shouldn’t that first ~ evaluate that list before it can be quoted?
16:05	bitemyapp	but you gotta get off the teat of arbitrary buckets of key-value pairs first.
16:05	bitemyapp	when 90%++ of the time you want a record.
16:05	bbloom	kristof: anyway, thanks for bullshitting with me. i've had this thought for a while and it was nice to try to explain it. i should blog about it sometime & get the thought out more fully :-)
16:06	bitemyapp	bbloom: blog posts are often nice.
16:06	kristof	bbloom: You should
16:06	bitemyapp	which reminds me, I need to fix my site.
16:07	kristof	bbloom: I'm just trying to sort some thoughts out at the moment.
16:07	kristof	bbloom: How do you have graph reduction in a language if you try to preserve structure, too?
16:09	bbloom	kristof: not sure i understand the question
16:10	kristof	bbloom: I'm just not smart enough to really grasp the future you see, forgive me :P
16:11	Profpatsch	coventry: Ooooooh, I think I get it. The unquote resolves the symbol to its value. I didn’t know it had that effect.
16:11	kristof	bbloom: Do you think youl
16:11	kristof	bbloom: *Do you think you'll explore some more of these ideas in something like asyncx?
16:11	bbloom	kristof: in asyncx, definitely not no :-P
16:11	kristof	ah, ok
16:12	coventry	Profpatsch: Yep, exactly.
16:12	bbloom	asyncx was just a toy to learn core.async & play with CSP in a context that wasn't Go b/c I didn't really feel like learning to use Go & frankly have practically zero use for CSP at all :-P
16:12	bbloom	but more generally, i'm exploring the boundary between dynamic and static :-)
16:12	Profpatsch	coventry: So, does ~ do that and unquote lists or are both one and the same thing?
16:12	kristof	bbloom: It's funny how different people approach concurrency so differently. You were probably here but Baldridge has said himself that he has never used STM in a way that it wasn't refactored out later
16:13	Profpatsch	coventry: I’m not sure I’m grasping the pattern.
16:13	bitemyapp	kristof: I've pretty effectively avoided STM.
16:13	bitemyapp	kristof: refs, anyway.
16:13	bitemyapp	and even atoms were contingent, but not necessary, in what I was doing.
16:13	bitemyapp	agents/Executors were closer to necessary/critical.
16:13	kristof	bitemyapp: That reminds me of a Microsoft developer's comment at the end of an expose of .NET's STM: "So, what is it? Is the world going to be transactional, or is it not?"
16:13	bitemyapp	core.async lets you ditch a lot of stuff
16:14	bitemyapp	kristof: I like STM, I just don't use it nearly as much as I thought I would.
16:14	bbloom	kristof: since discovering clojure, my approach to concurrency has always been full linearization of async writes with completely uncoordinated reads. STM not required :-P
16:14	bitemyapp	^^ that is basically what I do.
16:14	bitemyapp	that and I use promises at the API layer.
16:14	kristof	bbloom: So you basically sprinkle agents everywhere and purposefully decouple computations.
16:14	bbloom	kristof: turns out that scales much further than i've needed for a greenfield project
16:14	kristof	bbloom: Sounds very erlang-esque
16:14	bitemyapp	kristof: s'what I do.
16:14	bbloom	kristof: nope
16:14	Profpatsch	coventry: Ugh, I’m so stupid. I’ve used this all along, but somehow this slightly more complicated example brought me off-tracks.
16:15	bitemyapp	kristof: core.async for some stuff, agents for others.
16:15	bbloom	kristof: i use at most one agent
16:15	kristof	bitemyapp: Had a lengthy discussion in #haskell about how actors are just shared mutable state and don't compose
16:15	bbloom	kristof: my clojure programs tend to look like either 1 agent or (more commonly) 1 atom, everything else immutable
16:15	bitemyapp	I don't think I've needed more than one agent per coarse-grained side-effecty "noun"
16:15	kristof	bitemyapp: but Clojure doesn't actually have actors, because agents aren't quite the same thing
16:16	bitemyapp	kristof: Right. I just use it linearize operations against a sink of side effects.
16:16	kristof	bbloom: Even in very large applications? You never find yourself needing to coordinate some shared state?
16:16	kristof	bitemyapp: Wait, how do you linearize computations with asynchronous agents?
16:16	bitemyapp	kristof: in large applications, STM keels over.
16:16	bbloom	kristof: what's a "very large application"?
16:16	kristof	bbloom: I'm using large to mean "touches a lot of components"
16:16	bitemyapp	kristof: seriously, you can write a script in Clojure to hammer a ref. Try it.
16:16	bbloom	kristof: in anything really big, i generally rely on external shared state: ie a database
16:17	bitemyapp	kristof: again, ditto.
16:17	bitemyapp	but Erlang is typically used for things where you want all the pertinent state in memory.
16:17	bitemyapp	like multiplayer game servers.
16:17	kristof	I'm going to apologize to both bbloom and bitemyapp, here, my inadequacy is showing and the Dunning-Kruger will start reeking at some point
16:17	bbloom	kristof: no need to apologize
16:17	bitemyapp	kristof: awareness generally keeps the D-K away.
16:18	kristof	bbloom: Then you really are using STM, just a better designed one that you don't explicitly program
16:18	kristof	bbloom: except that software is just going to be SQL/NoSQL or something
16:19	bbloom	kristof: i guess you can see it that way. shrug
16:19	danno1	Simple Q: Should I be able to call (doc <methodname>) in a .clj file, or does it only run in the REPL?
16:19	kristof	bbloom: Wait, if I may extrapolate something here, are you saying that whenever your application gets large enough to necessitate the sharing of state, you should just use a database? Meaning there's really no good use for STM?
16:19	bitemyapp	kristof: no no
16:19	bitemyapp	kristof: at truly large scale you AVOID transactions that are responsible for more data than strictly necessary at all costs
16:19	bitemyapp	kristof: you scale through independence, not through a clever transaction algorithm.
16:20	bitemyapp	kristof: part of the reason for tackling and thinking hard about sharding is figuring out where your "independence" shard-points lie
16:20	kristof	bitemyapp: What's your job title and what do you typically work with? It sounds like you specialize in web applications and distributed computing.
16:20	bitemyapp	I'm a backend monkey yo. I haven't done anything truly distributed since that CV company.
16:20	bitemyapp	kristof: currently I work with Datomic and API servers.
16:21	kristof	I see.
16:21	bitemyapp	but using Datomic doesn't really change the story from SQL servers. You scale them the same way, independence.
16:21	kristof	Ok.
16:21	bitemyapp	figure out where you can draw a line in the sand and accept that "whole comprehensions" of database are not going to happen
16:21	bitemyapp	if you want such a thing, you're talking OLAP, not OLTP, and you're funneling your data into a different sort of store.
16:22	bitemyapp	which reminds me, I should think about making a river-middleware for Datomic.
16:22	bitemyapp	but anyway, the work I do right now is relatively simple with respect to scale.
16:23	bitemyapp	The ugliness comes from hooman problems and data modelling.
16:23	kristof	bitemyapp: Ah, I see.
16:24	kristof	bitemyapp: Not sure what river-middleware is.
16:24	bitemyapp	kristof: piping and repeating transactions from Datomic into other data sinks like ElasticSearch and Hadoop.
16:24	bitemyapp	"any entity with :attr, convert to JSON and post to ElasticSearch for search indexing"
16:25	bitemyapp	kristof: but yeah, anyway, OLAP generally implies a sacrifice of latency and liveness so that you can "fold" your data with high throughput. OLTP generally means, "touch the least amount of data possible per operation, handle transactions with predictable latency"
16:25	bitemyapp	two very different workloads.
16:26	kristof	bitemyapp: So OLTP is for touching little things at a time (getting and setting) while OLAP is for business logic
16:26	bitemyapp	kristof: OLAP is business intelligence, OLTP is the "store" of the result of some sort of business logic.
16:26	kristof	Ok
16:27	bitemyapp	kristof: the problem is figuring out how to balance OLTP data store simplicity with atomically safe transactions that can do meaningful "things"
16:27	koreth_	Example: Withdrawing cash from your bank account at an ATM is OLTP. Generating your monthly bank account statement is OLAP.
16:27	bitemyapp	koreth_: sorta, that's not how banks actually handle that though. Good example.
16:28	koreth_	Yeah, just going for an analogy there.
16:28	kristof	Ok, I understand
16:28	bitemyapp	kristof: closer to OLAP would actually be, "generating average balance of all customers for a given region"
16:28	kristof	bitemyapp: Oh, but OLAP is going to impact the way you store data, isn't it? The two just aren't going to live together happily
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: if your shard-point is a single customer, then it's still possible to calculate monthly balance on a per user basis on the OLTP layer.
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: generally you have some sort of data source of first resort.
16:29	kristof	ok
16:29	bitemyapp	kristof: the safest thing is logs and reconciliation, which is what banks do.
16:29	bitemyapp	those logs get rolled into whatever data stores you want.
16:29	kristof	bitemyapp: Rich Hickey talked a lot about logs being second class to immutable data structures
16:30	bitemyapp	eh.
16:30	kristof	Disagree?
16:30	bitemyapp	it's highly dependent on context.
16:30	kristof	As is everything, I guess.
16:30	bitemyapp	the fundamental data structure you want to think about at scale when reliability is paramount is a log.
16:30	bitemyapp	you might have an API server that acts as a gatekeeper for operations like account withdrawal, but the data store that gave the yes/no answer is still going to have its state "overridden" by whatever the logs say happened.
16:31	bbloom	traditionally, yes, but i think that persistent data structures and atomic root cells are woefully underexplored
16:31	kristof	Well, if I listen to anymore I might not retain the stuff from earlier :(
16:31	bitemyapp	the state is a convenience and an optimization, not the real truth.
16:31	bbloom	bitemyapp: i disagree with that entirely
16:31	bitemyapp	bbloom: agreed
16:31	bitemyapp	that was poorly timed.
16:31	bitemyapp	you get my meaning.
16:31	bbloom	the log is just that: a log
16:31	bitemyapp	well in some sense, the log is the state that takes precedence.
16:31	bbloom	not really, no. you get to pick
16:32	bitemyapp	that's a decision to be made
16:32	bitemyapp	I'm talking about a relatively simple model for log reconciliation.
16:32	bitemyapp	if you have new "events" hitting a stateful data store, nothing is stopping you from merging-without-loss with the logs too.
16:32	amontalenti	This is a bit of a newbie question. I have some code that is reading through a file full of data and parsing it a bit with JSON / string splitting. I have a function working that is printing each line of this parsed data. But I want to change the function now to return a vector or seq on that data. What's the change I'm meant to make? (Code snippet: https://gist.github.com/amontalenti/8496733)
16:33	bbloom	disagree with that too :-P
16:33	bitemyapp	regardless, none of it works without really understanding your data.
16:34	coventry	amontalenti: You want to make your doseq a for or a map or a mapv, and change the println to list or vec or similar.
16:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: what would you consider a normal insertion rate for your Rethink driver?
16:35	amontalenti	coventry, thanks -- I'm checking the relevant docs now to understand. Appreciat eit.
16:35	arrdem	20-30 writes/sec?
16:35	amontalenti	*appreciate it.
16:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: per client? seems reasonable.
16:36	bitemyapp	arrdem: there's a RethinkDB connection pooling daemon if you want it.
16:37	arrdem	bitemyapp: hum... ok. something happens in the 2011-03-* logs which causes my memory usage to spike by a factor of 10 and I'm wonderinf if I'm just managing to overload the insert queue resulting in the driver holding refs for longer or something.
16:37	Profpatsch	Is it just me or does (name) not work in a macro context? Here the macroexpand gives me (clojure.core/defn foobar [nil nil]) for (component foobar :x :y): https://bigmac.caelum.uberspace.de/paste/macro.clj.html
16:38	bitemyapp	arrdem: the agents are inspectable.
16:38	bitemyapp	arrdem: start logging promise mapping count to disk.
16:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's entirely possible for empty promises to accumulate, or for fulfilled promises to not get graveyarded or something.
16:39	bitemyapp	I hope that's not what's happening, just coming up with possibilities.
16:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah I have no idea.. I'm just sitting here watching the JVM leak memory somehow.
16:40	bitemyapp	arrdem: add logging and make your data loading process idempotent and incremental.
16:40	bitemyapp	arrdem: save ya time.
16:40	amontalenti	coventry, hmm, interesting -- I think I understood what to do, but changing my (do-seq) to (for) results in an IOException. I think I know why -- since the (with-open) call is before (for), it opens a stream before a lazy sequence is returned. (snippet updated: https://gist.github.com/amontalenti/8496733)
16:41	arrdem	bitemyapp: technically it already is... I just happen to be running it as a monolithic scrape and insert run.
16:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: if it's monolithic, it's not incremental. Do you have natural key for log events? I assume each message is a document in Rethink?
16:42	coventry	amontalenti: Yes, make it eager, or keep the file open.
16:43	coventry	Profpatsch: name is being overwritten by the arg name. Use clojure.core/name, or change the arg name.
16:43	amontalenti	coventry, got it, thanks!
16:43	bitemyapp	had dim-sum for brunch today. Still feel like a roly-poly fat ass 3 hours later.
16:43	Profpatsch	coventry: UGH, I hate it when that happens. What a drag.
16:47	coventry	It's just the duck-typing tax which pays for your handy keyword lookups. :-)
16:48	Profpatsch	I guess. But thanks again.
16:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: hum... ok. I'll bug you about my architecture here later. Trying to dig into LLVM while this runs...
16:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: well it's clearly some form of acreeted garbage from the duration of the run... my write rate drops to < 1/s and I'm near 99% system memory usage but if I restart from the last checkpoint I'm sub 50% memory and doing 34w/s again.
17:07	bitemyapp	oh so it is checkpointed, hoog.
17:07	bitemyapp	good*
17:07	bitemyapp	arrdem: but can you log the agent state to check for a possible source of garbage for me?
17:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: lemme try an experiment with multiple connections first...
17:09	bitemyapp	well that would be a good place to start, yes.
17:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: well one bottlekneck was that I was sharing one db conn between all the worker threads.. I'm seeing 120+ writes/sec now
17:10	bitemyapp	arrdem: ಠ_ಠ
17:11	arrdem	bitemyapp: your utf-8 killed my emacs..
17:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: and your disapproval is well justified here.
17:12	marcopolo`	anyone use tools.cli?
17:12	arrdem	marcopolo`: I have... it works ok.
17:12	marcopolo`	I'm trying to figure out how to pass a list of arguments without parsing that list myself
17:12	marcopolo`	as in --keywords foo bar baz
17:12	marcopolo`	or anything similar
17:12	bitemyapp	arrdem: hahahahaha
17:13	bitemyapp	now I have a killswitch for your erc
17:13	arrdem	bitemyapp: 300+ writes/second... burn baby burn...
17:13	bitemyapp	that is fantatic.
17:13	bitemyapp	fantastic*
17:13	arrdem	bitemyapp: you didn't kill it... my Arch fonts are just screwed again so it didn't render correctly.
17:13	bitemyapp	arrdem: you can batch writes too
17:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: bulk inserts might save you an fsync or two :)
17:18	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah I'll see about getting some logging out of the conns... looks like I'm still leaking at some leve.
17:19	Notte	Hello, i'm approaching clojure with the clojure community tutorial. I installed leining but i don't understand how to run a plain clojure script, in particular the one called vars.clj. In the tutorial says "To run the code above, save it in a file named "vars.clj" and use the shell script for executing Clojure files described earlier", but i didn't find described any shell script. Would you help me, please?
17:20	bitemyapp	Notte: learn to use Leiningen.
17:20	arrdem	Notte: link?
17:20	Notte	arrdem: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
17:20	Notte	Vars section
17:21	bitemyapp	this material isn't quite right.
17:22	bitemyapp	for one thing, he uses "global" to mean at least three different things
17:22	arrdem	Notte: did you do all this? http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#Getting%20Started
17:23	arrdem	Notte: yeah there totally isn't mention of whatever he uses for "$ clj $FILE"
17:23	arrdem	Notte: what platform are you on?
17:24	Notte	arrdem: osx. I installed leining as says in the tutorial, and also downloaded the clojure.jar just to try the simple repl. That's it.
17:24	bitemyapp	Notte: you can just use `lein repl` and load the file.
17:25	arrdem	Notte: so if you set up a leiningen project, you can do what bitemyapp just said.
17:25	bitemyapp	Notte: you should just learn to use Leiningen and live in the REPL though.
17:25	bitemyapp	don't even necessarily need a project, you can drop a REPL and use load-file anywhere.
17:25	arrdem	Notte: `lein new scratch; cp scratch.clj scratch/src/; cd scratch; lein repl;`
17:25	bitemyapp	just a terrible idea is all.
17:25	bitemyapp	a scratch project is better.
17:26	arrdem	HAHAHAHA 500 WRITES/SEC.
17:26	coventry	Notte: This is good, and a bit more modern: http://aphyr.com/posts/301-clojure-from-the-ground-up-welcome
17:26	bitemyapp	you are...really excited about this.
17:26	bitemyapp	arrdem: what'd you change to achieve that?
17:26	Notte	Ok,thank you all.
17:27	arrdem	bitemyapp: nothing. the 500 is just a huge peak on the same one conn per worker run I kicked off earlier.
17:28	arrdem	$seen http
17:28	lazybot	I have never seen http.
17:28	arrdem	hum... I have a bug then.
17:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: how so?
17:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's the state of the agents?
17:29	arrdem	bitemyapp: so... because of the way that the logs I'm parsing are formatted, the message author's name is only mentioned the first time they send. So if I send four messages in a row, only the first displays my name.
17:29	arrdem	bitemyapp: this means that I have some internal state which I use to track the previous message sender in case the next message has no sender, meaning that the sender is unchanged.
17:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: the "last sender" is dumped whenever an agent finishes parsing one day's logfile and I'm seeing the usernames "http" and "https" show up, neither of which is probably correct.
17:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm going to assume in the intervening time that none of this is my default.
17:31	bitemyapp	my fault*
17:31	arrdem	bitemyapp: probably a safe assumption.
17:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7892
17:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: yep this behavior is a bug and totally my fault.
17:40	Notte	What can i read to learn clojure? Suggestions?
17:40	SparkySparkyBoom	Notte, this really helped when i first started. http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-in-15-minutes/
17:42	Notte	SparkySparkyBoom: ok, thanks.
17:43	marcopolo`	Notte: Check out light table
17:43	marcopolo`	I think it makes learning clojure a lot easier because it takes care of the boring stuff like setting up a repl connection
17:44	Notte	marcopolo`: yeah, i know it. It's great, although it lacks of many features for now.
17:45	marcopolo`	like what?
17:45	Notte	multiple cursors
17:45	Notte	for instance
17:45	marcopolo`	yeah that is kind of annoying
17:46	Notte	once you get used to it, it's difficult to write without it :)
17:46	Notte	annoying, i mean
17:47	Notte	But i'll definitely use it one day, has great concepts
17:49	Notte	Just out of curiosity, do we have a repl in this channel?
17:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah in general I have way too much fun whenever I get to actually leverage all the compute power hiding inside my tower :D
17:49	pdk	% (print "maybe")
17:49	pdk	damn it
17:50	pdk	, (print "maybe")
17:50	Notte	lol
17:50	clojurebot	maybe
17:50	marcopolo`	lol
17:50	bitemyapp	arrdem: as my desktop sits idle while I code on my dinkpad.
17:50	Notte	>> 'lol
17:50	arrdem	bitemyapp: is that something like a crackbook?
17:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: meant it in the sense of it being dinky, but really that's being unfair, it's a T430 and pretty decent.
17:51	bitemyapp	just wish Lenovo would use higher quality displays.
17:52	bitemyapp	the matte display is so matte it's downright cloudy.
17:54	SparkySparkyBoom	> (println "maybe")
17:54	SparkySparkyBoom	:\|
17:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: I love that this microjump/chainjump system includes stellar drift of targets and varied orbit speeds on a per-body basis
17:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's quite interesting.
18:00	shriphani	sorry if this is a stupid question. what is the web-framework everyone recommends ? I can see a bunch but most of this pro-con stuff is about 2 years old and I was wondering if there is a single solution everyone's converged to.
18:00	bitemyapp	shriphani: Ring/Compojure, but it's not a framework.
18:01	bitemyapp	shriphani: you just use the bits and pieces you care about.
18:01	arrdem	shriphani: stay away from anything using Noir and you should be fine. lib-noir is ok.
18:01	bitemyapp	shriphani: http://www.luminusweb.net/
18:01	shriphani	any opinions on pedestal ?
18:01	danneu	shriphani: use Compojure and assemble it a la carte
18:01	shriphani	there's a 34 sections long tutorial
18:02	danneu	impression i get is that pedestal appears to be aiming for interactive js apps
18:02	shriphani	o.
18:02	danneu	im running a forum with just compojure
18:02	shriphani	ok compojure it is
18:02	marcopolo`	pedestal is amazing, but it's designed for big client side apps
18:03	shriphani	yea this is not big. There is currently just 1 user - me.
18:03	shriphani	and it will stay that way for a while
18:03	marcopolo`	compojure should be just what you want
18:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: discovered those links today, the micro-jump/plotted-jump is strikingly similar to what I had in mind.
18:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: the super-cruise mode was something I hadn't come to yet though, I think there's an interesting way to use the gravity well mechanism to regulate the use of conventional, cruise, and hyperspace.
18:06	danneu	i have a slow route in my webapp that does a lot of things. is there any sort of way to see how long time is spent in each function?
18:06	bitemyapp	danneu: https://github.com/bitemyapp/trajectile/ ?
18:07	danneu	bitemyapp: thanks, i'll check it out
18:07	arrdem	bitemyapp: the gravity well mechanic is absolutely critical IMHO.
18:07	arrdem	bitemyapp: one thing which could be interesting is the interaction of a gravity well and the signature of a jumping ship...
18:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: if deliberately diving a gravity well at supercruise allowed you to hide your de-jump signature...
18:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: this being ballanced because of the induced system stress. otherwise supercruise or warp chases are just exercises in who can fly fastest, which will be warp engine determined.
18:09	danneu	i run a compojure app behind nginx. this is my basic config: https://gist.github.com/danneu/8498070
18:10	danneu	Does anyone more experienced know how i can throw up an error page if @MYCLOJUREAPP doesnt respond?
18:10	danneu	or perhaps a better way of hosting an app behind nginx
18:10	bitemyapp	danneu: middleware
18:11	bitemyapp	danneu: https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus/blob/master/src/berossus/rocks/your/data/middleware.clj#L9-L22
18:12	arrdem	danneu: you can add a 504.html that will get served on a timeout...
18:12	bitemyapp	ohhh
18:12	bitemyapp	you mean an actual 504
18:12	cark	bitemyapp: what's this space stuff you're talking about ?
18:12	bitemyapp	rather than "doesn't respond" in the abstract.
18:12	danneu	arrdem: i get a 502 gateway when @MYCLOJUREAPP is down
18:12	arrdem	danneu: there is support for 50X.html
18:12	danneu	yeah, thanks
18:13	arrdem	danneu: http://help.cloud66.com/web-server/custom-500-page.html
18:13	danneu	bitemyapp: i really need that too. i thought i'd just develop my site live. but it got really popular and now my stacktraces are thrown out to everyone
18:14	arrdem	danneu: there are worse problems to have...
18:14	danneu	finally, is there any reason why 'lein ring server' in development mode is a bad idea if the stacktraces are turned into 500 errors?
18:14	bitemyapp	it's a pretty bad idea.
18:14	danneu	that's how i'm doing it so i can rapidly deploy
18:14	danneu	bitemyapp: the readme just says that it "watches filesystem to reload changes"
18:15	mrhanky	how do i replace a " with \" in a string?
18:15	arrdem	danneu: set up a git-post-recieve to redeploy your app... do the dynamic reloading crap on your dev machine and just do redeploys whenever you want.
18:15	bitemyapp	cark: uh, there does not currently exist a space game that fits what I want.
18:16	arrdem	I should have a template git repo for doing exaclty that...
18:16	bitemyapp	cark: there was going to be one, but it died because the developer is flakier than a biscuit.
18:16	cark	bitemyapp: ah ok =(
18:16	bitemyapp	cark: so I'm watching the development of a couple of promising space games while thinking about what I believe would be fun.
18:16	bitemyapp	cark: mostly following Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen, the former seems more mature right now.
18:16	danneu	arrdem: what's the preferred incantation for serving a lein-ring app in production? (without compiling uberjar)
18:16	bitemyapp	E:D should have multiplayer by the end of this month.
18:16	bitemyapp	danneu: use uberjar.
18:17	arrdem	danneu: you really do want to do uberjar
18:17	cark	bitemyapp: i'm worried they might ruin the elite franchise...
18:17	arrdem	danneu: the setup I used to use was that my post-recieve would uberjar and then java -jar $UBERJAR
18:17	bitemyapp	cark: an otherwise dead franchise cannot be ruined.
18:17	danneu	alright. i'll stop `lein ring server` and insteaed rsync up code and compile uberjar remotely
18:17	cark	tru enough
18:17	arrdem	danneu: you certainly don't want to be running lein in uberjar
18:17	arrdem	sorry. in production.
18:17	bitemyapp	cark: I'm happy for anything they come up with and the development seems very promising. Thoughtful.
18:18	danneu	arrdem: doesnt `trampoline` get around that?
18:18	arrdem	danneu: maybe. I've never used it.
18:18	bitemyapp	danneu: use uberjar.
18:18	cark	bitemyapp: the PR is thoughtfull, let's wait and see for the rest
18:18	bitemyapp	trampoline gets around some memory usage issues, it doesn't make using lein in product not a bad idea.
18:19	danneu	bitemyapp: why is lein in production a bad idea in general?
18:19	bitemyapp	chooses bad defaults, not the right way at all to do deploys.
18:19	bitemyapp	Deploys should be of archived and tagged build artifacts.
18:19	bitemyapp	not freakin' code rsync.
18:20	bitemyapp	using lein ring server is like FTP'ing PHP code into production.
18:20	bitemyapp	you deserve what you get, at that point.
18:21	danneu	sounds like i need to hang up my chaps
18:21	danneu	and my cowboy hat
18:21	bitemyapp	danneu: you're a francophone aren't you?
18:21	arrdem	danneu: seriously. go set up a git server on your remote, add a git remote and just live http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
18:21	bitemyapp	danneu: if so, you get a free pass for being weird.
18:21	Profpatsch	Okey, maybe I’m dumb, but: Howto new Map from seq of key-value pairs?
18:21	arrdem	Profpatsch: (into {} pair-seq) I think.
18:21	bitemyapp	,(into {} [["blah" "die"] [:untyped :langs] [:suck :fruit/wax]])
18:21	clojurebot	{"blah" "die", :untyped :langs, :suck :fruit/wax}
18:22	danneu	alright, thanks guys. i'll make some payments on my technical debt.
18:22	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/dqwujIX.jpg
18:22	arrdem	danneu: you recognize that you have technical debt, and that's step one :D
18:22	Profpatsch	Oh, right, I should have looked at the generic ops section. ;)
18:22	Profpatsch	Thanks!
18:23	danneu	arrdem: i sure feel silly now at my first development job when i complained about the nasty code, that's for sure
18:24	arrdem	danneu: hey man. relax. we all have to learn what good practice looks like at some point. I'm still learning...
18:24	bitemyapp	danneu: bad programmers are often worse at reading than writing code.
18:24	mrhanky	how do i escape " in a string with replace?
18:24	bitemyapp	danneu: and they usually develop more slowly at reading than writing because they spend more time writing than reading.
18:24	mrhanky	tried (replace string #"\"" "\\\"")
18:24	arrdem	$google java string escape
18:24	bitemyapp	danneu: one of my dream projects is writing a book on learning to read code other people ewrote.
18:24	lazybot	[Characters (The Java™ Tutorials > Learning the Java Language ...] http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/data/characters.html
18:24	`cbp	is anyone better at reading than writing
18:24	arrdem	mrhanky: ^
18:25	bitemyapp	`cbp: professors?
18:25	Profpatsch	Gosh, I LOVE clj so much. It’s like I’m smiling constantly while writing code.
18:25	bitemyapp	not many anyway.
18:26	`cbp	some dont know how to write at all :-D
18:26	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah there's something weird going on with the garbage system here...
18:26	Profpatsch	The live response from the instarepl just heightens that feeling.
18:26	arrdem	bitemyapp: I've been sitting at a 550 write/sec hypercruise for the last half hour and I just dropped to 1/s
18:26	danneu	Profpatsch: yeah, i can't even work with other code anymore. i don't know what i did before i could just eval code in the editor.
18:27	danneu	i hope my personal projects don't collapse
18:27	bitemyapp	arrdem: LAWGS
18:27	bitemyapp	~bitemyapp's \|response\| to everything is "logs plz"
18:27	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
18:27	bitemyapp	~bitemyapp's
18:27	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:27	bitemyapp	~bitemyapp
18:27	clojurebot	bitemyapp is it amuses me to mock other peoples' gods
18:27	bitemyapp	~bitemyapp
18:27	clojurebot	bitemyapp is unfuck your stack with monads!
18:28	bitemyapp	LOL
18:28	bitemyapp	okay.
18:28	bitemyapp	I give up. I have no idea where the bot stashed that.
18:28	`cbp	~bytemyapp
18:28	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:28	`cbp	oops
18:28	`cbp	oh well
18:29	alew	bitemyapp: what would you write in this book?
18:29	bitemyapp	alew: they'd be a mixture of practical application and traits/patterns/methods.
18:29	bitemyapp	alew: mostly just walkthroughs of extant non-trivial codebases in a variety of programming languages.
18:30	alew	I feel like reading the code base of a lib in clojure or c++ or java is so widely different
18:30	alew	in terms of idioms used and such
18:31	bitemyapp	alew: that's why I planned to use a mixture of typed and untyped languages.
18:31	bitemyapp	alew: one example technique I'd hammer in is source<-->sink identification and traversal.
18:31	bitemyapp	most people do it subconsciously, but don't practice it.
18:32	alew	Yeah, I don't that is very explicit
18:32	alew	it's especially relevant for web or ui programming
18:32	bitemyapp	I think you a word there.
18:33	alew	Wow, even reading back over it I automatically reinserted the word
18:33	bitemyapp	help me out?
18:33	alew	Yeah I don't think that is very explicit
18:33	bitemyapp	Right.
18:33	bitemyapp	alew: especially in frameworks like Django/Ruby
18:33	bitemyapp	that stuff gets nuts if you don't know the idioms.
18:34	bitemyapp	borderline magical/pure DSL in nature
18:34	alew	Yeah, and shit like Swing
18:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: `cbp can I interest you gentlemen in doters?
18:35	bitemyapp	I'm tired of fucking around with sourcemaps.
18:35	bitemyapp	`cbp: you have a new Revise user btw.
18:36	`cbp	bitemyapp: I do? :P
18:36	bitemyapp	`cbp: arrdem.
18:36	`cbp	I have been really lazy with that since I have seen no issues posted
18:37	`cbp	well lmk if you need help or new features
18:37	arrdem	bitemyapp: lemme finish this llvm shit and get some food.
18:37	arrdem	bitemyapp: ETA one hour if I stop derping with cloutjure
18:37	`cbp	arrdem: ^
18:37	arrdem	`cbp: cheers
18:37	`cbp	i need to afk 30-40 for food
18:38	bitemyapp	arrdem: one hour sounds good.
18:44	ivan	aha, IDEA replaced -Didea.no.safe.write=true with a 'Use "safe write"' in Settings -> General
18:44	ivan	no wonder I was getting weird locking issues
18:47	rovar	so I hit a major milestone last night. Finally made it through the Dota2 training scenarios
18:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: you're gonna have to help me out with getting you some logs... I've got my big gaming box totally pegged on all cores, but the server rethink is running on is totally idling. something on the java client end is definitely locking up..
18:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's actually pure Clojure.
18:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: unless you mean you're not using Revise.
18:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: I have to leave though, catching second brunch with a buddy.
18:53	arrdem	bitemyapp: kk
18:53	bitemyapp	that's right, I'm having a second one.
18:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: send me code if you want me to follow-up when I get back
18:55	arrdem	bitemyapp: kk.
19:02	danneu	My compojure app launches quickly, but the initial request takes a long time. Once it finishes, everything is working smoothly. I imagine this because the homepage pretty touches all the data in my Datomic db (at least counts all the records), so the first request is waiting for the peer to pull all of down?
19:08	koreth_	I'd guess it's compiling everything the first time.
19:11	danneu	koreth_: it's run from an uberjar
19:13	rovar	danneu: this is a job for liberally sprinkling log messages around
19:14	danneu	rovar: heh, right. thanks. my introspection kit is nonexistent
19:32	logic_prog	in C, we have macros that return __FILENAME__ and __LINE_NUMBER__
19:32	logic_prog	in clojure, do we have anything like this?
19:32	logic_prog	I want to hav ethe FILENAME / LINE_NUMBER of where hte macro _expands_
19:32	logic_prog	not where the macro is defined
19:33	arrdem	logic_prog: neg. there is some line metadata on some symbols.
19:33	danneu	Is there a max string size in Datomic's string datatype? google turned up nothing
19:33	arrdem	logic_prog: however this is all very ill-developed.
19:33	logic_prog	arrdem: are clojure macros not supposed to output errors about the file/line number
19:33	logic_prog	i.e. things like assert dumping where they failed
19:34	arrdem	logic_prog: I don't know offhand how to achieve such an effect. I've looked in passing for that information before but I don't think it's easily accessible.
19:34	logic_prog	arrdem: can a macro look up and get the name of the lexical function it's being expanded in?
19:34	cark	i thjink there's an env variable
19:34	cark	not quite sure, but that's something to google for i guess
19:34	arrdem	so there's ns, maybe a env, but no fn or line.
19:35	arrdem	I don't know of a file either.
19:35	logic_prog	http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/02/clojure-and.html looks insuficient
19:35	logic_prog	there's &env and &form
19:35	logic_prog	but it's not clear to me how to pull the lexical function name from &env
19:37	cark	&form has metadata
19:37	Bronsa	arrdem: there's file actually
19:38	arrdem	Bronsa: hum. TIL.
19:39	Bronsa	and as cark said, you can get line/column info from the metadata on &form
19:43	gtrak	tpo
19:53	alew	is there a way to check if a value is the 'true' value?
19:54	alew	as in the actual true literal, not a truthy value
19:54	Bronsa	arrdem: logic_prog http://sprunge.us/GagZ?clj
19:54	logic_prog	Bronsa: thanks!
19:55	arrdem	Bronsa: sweet!
19:56	alew	I think (= true value) works?
19:57	coventry	,(true? true)
19:57	clojurebot	true
19:57	coventry	,(true? 1)
19:57	clojurebot	false
19:58	arrdem	hum... anyone know of a better worker thread management system than this? na
19:58	arrdem	https://github.com/seancron/work
19:58	arrdem	this and technomancy's die-roboten both seem pretty dead (or just stable).
20:01	logic_prog	Bronsa: (defmacro fn-name [] (.thisName (.objx @clojure.lang.Compiler/METHOD))) (defn foo-magic [] (fn-name)) (foo-magic)
20:01	logic_prog	why does that return nil ?
20:01	Bronsa	because (defn foo []) expands to (def foo (fn [] ..)) not to (def foo (fn foo []))
20:02	Bronsa	logic_prog: there might be a way to get to the var name, let me check
20:02	logic_prog	Bronsa: ah, noted, thanks
20:04	alew	conventry: thanks
20:06	Bronsa	logic_prog: user=> ((fn foo [] (fn-name)))
20:06	Bronsa	"user$eval26$foo__27"
20:06	Bronsa	derp
20:06	Bronsa	logic_prog: http://sprunge.us/ZYFH
20:07	logic_prog	Bronsa: let me test this
20:08	logic_prog	Bronsa: awesome, thanks!
20:08	logic_prog	Bronsa: if I may, I have one more request --
20:08	logic_prog	Bronsa: I'm using cljx. Any chance we can make this work in cljs too? :-D
20:09	Bronsa	logic_prog: I don't think I need to say that this is abusing the clojure internals and you should really don't do this :P
20:09	logic_prog	Bronsa: Reasonable men use existing APIs. Unreasonable men use internals. Therefore, all progress depend on unreasonable men.
20:10	logic_prog	Bronsa: I have a dream -- that one day, code will be judged by what they do, and not what APIs they use.
20:10	logic_prog	Ask not what existing clojure APIs can do for you; ask what you can do to develop future clojure APIs
20:10	`cbp	stahp
20:12	arrdem	I like this guy. can we keep him?
20:14	logic_prog	cljs development is 1% clojure and 99% ^&(&*-javascript. -- Edison
20:17	alew	I think that was Lincoln
20:17	arrdem	$google edison quote invention is
20:17	lazybot	[Thomas A. Edison Quotes - BrainyQuote] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_a_edison.html
20:17	quizdr	good morning fellas
20:19	logic_prog	in writing clojure code, I think a 100-line day is a good day
20:19	logic_prog	in wriitng clojure macros, a 10-line day is a good day
20:20	coventry	Added or removed?
20:20	alew	Most of your macro writing should be writing regular functions if they are anything complicated
20:21	logic_prog	coventry: added
20:21	logic_prog	alew: indeed, but it's still hard for me to debug/visualize
20:23	alew	I've found the best way to write a macro is to write out how you want the macro to be called first and what it transform into
20:54	grzm	anyone run into "ReferenceError: Can't find variable: require" when using clojurescript.test with cljs.nodejs ?
21:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: back
21:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: ohai
21:23	arrdem	bitemyapp: so I'm reading Revise trying to chase down what's going on here
21:23	arrdem	bitemyapp: and it looks to me like in run-async when you finally send-off the operation, the send-off never manages to do anything.
21:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: in short, I think I've succeeded in overloading the Clojure threadpool :P
21:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: gg.
21:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: still not my fault, got it.
21:25	arrdem	bitemyapp: lolz.
21:26	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah so I've managed to control the memory usage by not using run-async and using a manually controlled threadpool
21:27	arrdem	bitemyapp: but I'm just gonna have to run this thing overnight 'cause its friggin slow.
21:28	bitemyapp	interdasting.
21:30	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm trying not to be tempted into a benchmarking rabbit-hole by this.
21:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah I kinda want to get a profiler set up and figure out what's going on here...
21:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's fine, I just bought the E:D alpha so I can do that instead until I go back to hacking :)
21:31	rovar	how can I eval a file I've loaded and have it execute all functions in the file?
21:31	rovar	it seems to eval the first def and then stops..
21:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: so are you just working with a fixed-size thread pool or what?
21:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: you can use Executors with a specific thread pool impl I think.
21:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: the last version I had did some really janky stuff with futures to manually implement a size 8 threadpool
21:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: I went and got a real Java threadpool imp'l and now it's working...
21:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: throughput?
21:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm down to about 30 documents/sec, but I'm not leaking memory and I'm restartably snapshotting so I'll take it.
21:33	arrdem	I am curious why I can't replicate that retarded 400/s throughput tho.
21:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: increase thread pool size?
21:34	rovar	how big are the documents? 30/sec seems very low for any database..
21:34	rovar	it's unlikely to be IO bound in any way that could be alleviated by more threads..
21:34	rovar	e.g. disk..
21:35	bitemyapp	rovar: I don't think it's bound by the database right now.
21:35	bitemyapp	rovar: his thread pool is probably starving the client.
21:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: I can confirm that all DBs are essentially idling
21:36	bitemyapp	Right, as I would expect.
21:37	rovar	by all means then :)
21:38	arrdem	lemme see if I can tune out my VPN's overhead..
21:40	rovar	as an alternate to my eval question.. how can I use/require an arbitrary .clj file that isn't in my path?
21:41	arrdem	okay... using loopback rather than an encrypted channel to Warlock was good for an increase to 90/s
21:42	rovar	I have a thingy that generates test-data..
21:42	logic_prog	Those who would give up macros for ease of use deserve neither. -- Franklin
21:49	arrdem	well I haven't managed to propperly peg rethink... it's only at 10% of system time, but I also can't go any wider on my parallel crawl or I'll start getting 503 ratelimited.
21:54	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah I'm pretty sure that's what was happening. I'm using blocking transactions at the moment and I'm still seeing transactions going out of order by two and three months.
21:54	arrdem	bitemyapp: so an overwhelmed Clojure threadpool would totally have done the trick.
22:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: hum.
22:04	arrdem	bitemyapp: https://github.com/arrdem/cloutjure/blob/master/src/cloutjure/input/irc.clj
22:05	rovar	is there any way to evaluate a function as a key in a map?
22:05	rovar	i vaguely recall reading about this issue
22:06	rovar	that the function call is treated as a symbol
22:06	rovar	I juts don't remember what to do about it.
22:06	ivan	,{(inc 1) "a"}
22:06	clojurebot	{2 "a"}
22:07	rovar	no worky
22:08	rovar	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (tmp)
22:08	ivan	,(hash-map (inc 1) "a")
22:08	clojurebot	{2 "a"}
22:08	rovar	in this case tmp is a lambda wrapper for tempid
22:09	rovar	hmm
22:10	rovar	,{(inc 1) "a" (inc 1) "a"}
22:10	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (inc 1)>
22:11	rovar	, (hash-map (inc 1) "a" (inc 1) "b")
22:11	clojurebot	{2 "b"}
22:11	rovar	k
22:12	rovar	i'll switch to an a-list style vector
22:16	danneu	What do I need to know when slurping/spitting to the `resources` folder of an uberjar? it's hard for me to translate my code into something that works in an uberjar.
22:33	arrdem	danneu: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/FIWygm8ub7Y
23:00	stirfoo	can someone with JOGL knowledge take a look here: http://pastebin.com/HWk4XGu3
23:00	stirfoo	trying to get glDrawElements to work
23:04	cark	i don't know about your example, but you really should not be using the opengl2 api
23:04	stirfoo	cark: yes, I'm stuck in the past, but I've never learned the new opengl way.
23:06	danneu	arrdem: my problem seems to be actually writing to a new file in resources
23:06	stirfoo	I'v programmed opengl with vertex arrays for a long time in c, c++ and python. I'm assuming it will work fine with clojure once I work the kinks out.
23:07	stirfoo	*and common lisp
23:09	cark	stirfoo: have you tied not disabling client state ?
23:09	cark	tried*
23:10	stirfoo	cark, I think I did actually
23:10	stirfoo	I say an example that did the same
23:10	stirfoo	*saw
23:11	cark	is there no color information for each vertex ? you might be drawing black on black ?
23:12	stirfoo	cark, default color should be white. guess I could enable a color array
23:12	cark	anyways i know nothing of gl2 =P
23:12	stirfoo	just to see
23:12	cark	i shouldn't try to help
23:12	stirfoo	cark: I'll take any help I can get
23:12	stirfoo	I really should learn shaders one of these days
23:13	cark	they're not all that hard, just start simple like you do here
23:13	quizdr	does anyone know how to stop an infinite loop at the REPL without killing the REPL buffer?
23:15	danielszmulewicz	quizdr: try C-c c-b
23:16	quizdr	actually it looks like it locked up emacs entirely and I couldn't enter any key strokes at all
23:17	danneu	M-x nrepl-interrupt sometimes works
23:17	quizdr	i've noted these and will try them if it happens again
23:19	stirfoo	C-z, ps ax, kill -9 ####
23:19	cark	stirfoo: is make-direct-flat-buffer actually returning anything ?
23:19	stirfoo	last resort, but I've done that more than once
23:19	quizdr	thanks stirfoo
23:20	stirfoo	cark, yes I can (.get buf N) and it returns the correct value
23:21	cark	ahyes rewind returns the buffer
23:21	stirfoo	cark: but really I have no idea what I'm doing with java.nio.Buffer, just read enough of the docs to try it out
23:21	danneu	Is there a reason why (spit (str (io/resource "cache/") "hello.html") "test") throws a 500 error with jetty instead of writes to resources/cache/hello.html?
23:21	danneu	when in an uberjar?
23:22	cark	stirfoo: why not create it directly with wrap ?
23:23	cark	the floatbuffer
23:23	stirfoo	cark: a direct buffer is required
23:23	stirfoo	well, that's what the traceback told me
23:24	stirfoo	that's for glVertexPointer, it doesn't complain when using wrap with glDrawElements, although I've tried a direct Buffer there as well.
23:24	cark	stirfoo: so maybe the indices one must be direct too ?
23:24	stirfoo	still nothing renders
23:24	cark	kk
23:24	stirfoo	=)
23:27	cark	funny you would be doing opengl stuff, since a discussion here yesterday i've been playing with webgl and clojurescript =)
23:27	cark	got a texture showing, and some "programmer art" too !
23:27	stirfoo	that sounds fun, I havent tried clojurescript out yet
23:29	cark	i was astonnished when discovering that IE11 actually works with opengl
23:29	cark	with a minimal change about 10 characters long
23:31	stirfoo	ahaha, I haven't used internet exploder in a loooong time
23:31	cark	ahwell still the market leader, need to take it into account don't we
23:31	ggherdov	hello. About web dev in clojure (luminus, or pedestal). Anybody can point me to the "clojure way" to perform testing of a webapp? In Rails they have this "Capybara" gem, that can to the unthinkable: click on buttons, fill forms... It's based on selenium.
23:31	ggherdov	Maybe I can pick something from the java ecosystem to do something like that?
23:32	stirfoo	yep, if you want your code to run most everywhere
23:33	ggherdov	Basically I am askng of a headless js-capable browser I can use to test my clojure webapp
23:34	cark	ggherdov: maybe check this : https://github.com/cemerick/austin this project starts a repl inside phantom.js
23:34	quizdr	is defonce bascially like def except it won't reassign the var if it is already exists? kinda like defvar in common lisp?
23:34	ggherdov	cark: thanks
23:35	ggherdov	cark: about IE11, do you know that the javascript isIE() function evaluates "false" on it? I LOL-ed for a day whan saw that
23:36	cark	ggherdov: didn't know that =)
23:36	kristof	shouldn't that just check the user agent?
23:36	ggherdov	kristof: user agents are a jungle of nonsense, not reliable anymore basically
23:37	kristof	Come now, there are only so many, you can easily hardcode those cases in
23:37	kristof	...If you can't rely on them, what's the point anymore? :P
23:37	ggherdov	cark: http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2013/07/02/internet-explorer-11-dont-call-me-ie/
23:42	ivan	if there's any Trident in it it's IE
23:42	ggherdov	kristof: http://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/
23:42	ggherdov	"... and the user agent string was a complete mess, and near useless, and everyone pretended to be everyone else, and confusion abounded."
23:43	ggherdov	:)
23:43	kristof	heh, that's what people are doing with Pipelight
23:43	kristof	"I'm on Windows, I swear!"
23:44	ggherdov	hehe
23:57	`cbp	how's the driver treating you arrdem