#clojure – 2014-01-21

2014-01-21

00:00	xuser	arrdem: but ltc just seems more promising
00:09	deadghost	yep ddellacosta looks like it was working perfectly fine
00:09	deadghost	human error as usual
00:20	technomancy	quizdr: what part of .sg are you in?
00:30	quizdr	technomancy there is really only one part, singapore is just a single medium-sized city. i live in the central part of it.
00:31	technomancy	quizdr: cool; I used to live in Yishun
00:31	technomancy	are you down near Bishan then?
00:32	quizdr	no i'm further south than that, not far from Clarke Quay, Little India, etc
00:33	quizdr	how long where you here, and when?
00:33	technomancy	oh nice. my parents used to work near little india; a few blocks from dhoby ghaut
00:33	technomancy	I was only there from 99-01
00:34	ddellacosta	deadghost: ah, great. Yeah, sometimes you just need another pair of eyes to take a look. ;-)
00:35	technomancy	quizdr: do you write clojure for a singaporean firm?
00:36	quizdr	you probably would not recognize Singapore today. the economy has more than doubled since you were here, and even in the 2 years I've been here the city has changed a lot
00:36	quizdr	but i love it here.
00:36	technomancy	yeah, my parents have visited there and they say it's so much more crowded
00:37	quizdr	there is a functional programming group here that meets once a month. about 40 members, sometimes we meet at Google's headquarters, or other startups in the area. Except, the only language anyone of them knows is Haskell, which I do not, so I haven't gotten much out of the meetings.
00:37	technomancy	hm; still that's more than I would have expected =)
00:37	quizdr	i fall under the category of Clojure Hobbyist at the moment, but my work is almost entirely in C++
00:37	technomancy	I got the vibe that most companies there were very conservative about technology choices
00:38	quizdr	Well, Haskell is a lot more conservative a choice that Clojure.
00:38	quizdr	The largest startup in Singapore, Zalora, has grown to over 1000 employees in just 1 year, and they use Haskell entirely for their dot-com
00:38	noprompt	some of these FP thought leaders make me sad. especially the haskell ones.
00:39	technomancy	in some ways. introducing an unfamiliar runtime is pretty risky for an ops team that already deploys the JVM.
00:39	noprompt	quizdr: that comment was unrelated to your discussion btw.
00:39	quizdr	at least that's what I've gathered, a lot of the Zalora folks are in the FP group
00:39	noprompt	just letting off steam.
00:39	technomancy	does dons work for a company that operates in Singapore?
00:40	quizdr	I am very intrigued by Haskell but I've barely got time to play with Clojure and I suspect the learning ciruve is much higher for Haskell from everything I can tell.
00:40	quizdr	technomancy what is "dons" ?
00:40	technomancy	quizdr: Don S., famous haskell persona
00:40	technomancy	Stewart maybe?
00:41	quizdr	i don't know who that it is, but have you heard of Dr. Shaun Martin?
00:41	noprompt	quizdr: haskell does require a bit more effort than other languages. but even if you neve use it you'll learn a lot of interesting ideas.
00:41	technomancy	I just remember hearing him say they had good luck hiring for positions in what I believe was a financial company
00:41	technomancy	quizdr: no, I haven't read a whole lot about haskell
00:41	technomancy	I lean more towards OCaml myself =)
00:42	quizdr	yes i've heard nothing but good things about Haskell, and maybe one day I'll amuse myself with that also. I'm going to an interesting talk this Friday from a Haskell guru who runs a company here that does behavoir analysis using FP
00:43	quizdr	this guy runs a company here called Applied Cognitive Science, and here is the talk this Friday: http://www.meetup.com/HASKELL-SG/events/158576232/?gj=rcs.j&a=co2.j_grp&rv=rcs.j you guys should come
00:43	technomancy	I would definitely go if I were there =)
00:43	quizdr	his background is MIT, the Princeton Institute of Advanced Study, and Oxford. Should be interesting.
00:44	quizdr	from what I understand, developers here have it nice. It was very easy for me to get a long-term visa, and they are at the top of the list for top-tier work passes and jobs
01:17	quizdr	I'm reading about mutual recursion inside a lazy-seq; is the reason why it doesn't consume stack space like the un-lazy mutual recursion simply because you may not be retaining the head of the lazy-seq?
01:23	amalloy	retaining the head of a lazy seq doesn't affect stack usage, just heap
01:24	amalloy	it doesn't consume heap because a function which returns a lazy seq just immediately returns a thunk. the caller calls that thunk to realize one element, and that produces a Cons object, whose head is a value, and whose tail is another lazy sequence
01:24	quizdr	here's the code and question more clearly: https://www.refheap.com/26085
01:24	amalloy	so the lazy-seq function doesn't do any recursion immediately; it bounces off the caller's stack frame
01:27	amalloy	wellllllll, my above claim relies on the fact that eventually an actual element will be produced. in your example, where there are N nested sequences before any fully-realized element can be produced, you'll get a stack overflow if N is large enough
01:28	quizdr	In a non-lazy version of this code, you'd get an overflow error quickly. This lazy version is only avoiding that because the print-level halts the realization of N elements, such that 10,000 are not actually being realized, right?
01:29	amalloy	yes
01:30	quizdr	understanding laziness has been one of the tougher challenges for me to get used to
01:32	quizdr	so safe to say that printing something out is a form of head retention, even if you are not storing the results in a var, right?
02:30	amalloy	no. deeply-nested lazy sequences are a different issue from retaining the head of a long sequence
02:41	ro_st	dnolen: your youtube video is awesome! did you have to do anything special to get the browser connection going? or is that just lighttable magic?
02:42	ro_st	dnolen: do you know of a way to stop react eating runtime errors so that i can see a meaningful stacktrace in the debugger?
02:42	quizdr	amalloy no i meant that when you print out a lazy sequence, you are forcing a kind of head retention, even if you are not storying that sequence in your code
02:42	quizdr	in that the REPL is essentially hanging onto it
03:10	domino14	hi, how do i loop through a set but also break out if i need to?
03:10	greywolve	write a loop recur?
03:11	ro_st	or use drop-while or take-while to produce a subset of the set to work with. less useful on an unsorted coll like sets, though
03:11	greywolve	or if there's a specific value you need use drop-while or take-while
03:12	greywolve	bingo ;)
03:12	quizdr	or if you are just looking for something in the set and want to stop when you find it, there is "some" which will return the function result and stop right there
03:13	greywolve	awesome need to check that out
03:14	quizdr	in general, i'm finding, as a newbie, that a lot of the times my habits say to use loop/recur are actually the times i need to take a few extra minutes to think about a sequence function to use instead. often a single line of code can replace a few lines of a loop
03:14	Cr8	well
03:14	Cr8	Om was very nifty
03:15	Cr8	I'm about two hours in to trying to make it not break when I remove an item from a list of things I'm rendering
03:15	ro_st	have you seen the todomvc example, Cr8? might be an insight in there?
03:15	ro_st	https://github.com/swannodette/todomvc/tree/gh-pages/labs/architecture-examples/om-undo
03:15	Cr8	yeah, I'm reffing it
03:16	Cr8	that seems to just be doing (om/transact! [:path] filter pred)
03:17	Cr8	Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'parentNode' of undefined
03:17	Cr8	is what I get
03:17	Cr8	from inside React
03:17	Cr8	could be a react problem
03:18	fredyr	Cr8: for me that has usually been that the cursor is wrong
03:18	fredyr	Cr8: so the data you send to the react rendering is undefined
03:19	Cr8	hm
03:19	Cr8	so what it as actually happening is I'm assoc'ing a :deleted flag onto the item, and the render just (filter's) deleted stuff out
03:20	fredyr	Cr8: not sure about your transact! example above, seems a little off?
03:20	Cr8	I can update items in almost exactly the same fashion as long as the update doesn't cause them to not be rendered
03:21	fredyr	Cr8: how are you able to update without rendering?
03:21	Cr8	mine's closer to (om/transact! my-data [] mark-as-deleted id)
03:21	fredyr	i believe transact and update always trigger re-rendering
03:21	Cr8	fredyr: no, it does render when I do updates that don't remove anything
03:21	Cr8	if I swap out mark-as-deleted with thing-that-ticks-a-counter everything is fine
03:21	fredyr	Cr8: ah right, i see
03:22	Cr8	reality: I have two buttons, one that's supposed to remove an item and one that's supposed to tick its counter
03:22	fredyr	Cr8: you know you can use update! if you're just using the cursor without an path?
03:22	Cr8	oh
03:24	fredyr	Cr8: shouldn't really matter though
03:25	fredyr	Cr8: but it is a little nicer
03:26	Cr8	maybe is sablono's fault, had a problem earlier that went away when I switched back to plain om.dom
03:26	ro_st	om.dom is definitely required if you're using inputs, that's for sure
03:27	Cr8	yeah that was the first thing that broke
03:27	Cr8	these are buttons but I thought it'd be okay =P
03:27	fredyr	Cr8: oh haven't used sablono
03:29	fredyr	Cr8: is it good btw, apart from some things not working
03:30	ro_st	confirmed. om/react is proving to be great
03:31	fredyr	ro_st: that part i'm onboard with, was wondering about sablono specifically
03:32	ro_st	oh, yes, sablono is fine, it just doesn't have the stuff om.dom has for inputs
03:32	fredyr	ah right
03:32	Cr8	well i like hiccup
03:32	ro_st	perfect for the rest, though. good old hiccup syntax
03:33	fredyr	i've never liked hiccup that much :/
03:33	ro_st	i like using hiccup because it reduces the amount of function call reading you have to do. it aids the eye to distinguish between markup and logic
03:34	ro_st	[:button {:on-click #(prn "woo")} "Click me"] vs (dom/button #js {:onClick #(prn "woo") "Click me")
03:34	ro_st	missing } in second example, but you get the idea
03:35	fredyr	sure
03:35	fredyr	i think i agree also, but i has never bothered me that much tho
03:35	fredyr	*it
03:36	ro_st	just another way to reduce cognitive overhead for me
03:37	Cr8	..
03:37	Cr8	yep, totally migrated off of sablono and it still breaks
03:37	Cr8	not sablono's fault then
03:37	ro_st	code public, Cr8?
03:37	fredyr	Cr8: refheap some code
03:37	fredyr	?
03:38	Cr8	let me hold undo for a sec
03:39	Cr8	https://www.refheap.com/26134
03:39	Cr8	the button on line 85 explodes
03:39	Cr8	excuse formatting, using LightTable and if it has indenty-stuff I don't know how to work it
03:40	ro_st	gah. my local adsl ipc is having issues. can't reach your refheap, sorry
03:41	Cr8	http://drop.crate.im/omthing.txt ?
03:42	ro_st	no, sorry. looks like i have a dns issue. le sigh
03:44	fredyr	Cr8: nothing obvious that stick out unfortunately
03:45	Cr8	incidentally things worked when this list was a ul and not a table
03:46	Cr8	yep
03:46	Cr8	if I switch ul with table, remove the header line, and switch tr/td to li/span
03:46	Cr8	everything is fine
03:48	Cr8	I think maybe react + tables has a bug
03:48	greywolve	what's the error?
03:48	quizdr	do agents typically share the same pool, or does each one get its own thread?
03:48	Cr8	Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'parentNode' of undefined
03:49	Cr8	is what I get if an update happens that would cause a row to be removed from a table
03:49	Cr8	(but it's fine if the update removes the table entirely)
03:49	Cr8	(or adds a row)
03:49	Cr8	but if it removes a row and doesn't remove the table wholesale, I get that error
03:49	greywolve	bizzare
03:53	Cr8	at any rate
03:53	Cr8	now i'm in a position I didn't expect to find myself in:
03:53	Cr8	faking tables with CSS
04:05	xificurC	I am running a java app through seesaw and I wonder where do my println's actually print because they dont prin to the repl when I start the "app" from there
04:05	xificurC	when I start it from a terminal it prints to the terminal
04:06	Cr8	okay now that I'm past this issue this is excellent again
04:06	Cr8	xificurC: println's go to whatever java.io.Writer clojure.core/out is bound to in the calling context
04:06	fredyr	Cr8: I made a suprt short example trying to remove a row in a table
04:07	fredyr	Cr8: guess what error msg i got :s
04:07	xificurC	Cr8: hm, thanks, will take a look
04:07	Cr8	(with-open [logger (clojure.java.io/writer "log.txt")] (binding [out logger] ... printlns in here go to log.txt ...))
04:08	xificurC	also, anyone having troubles in emacs with `Lisp nesting exceeds 'max-lisp-eval-depth'`? when I cider-eval-buffer and one of the functions has an error I can never eval the buffer again (or the namespace definition)
04:08	Cr8	and that context isn't lexical, it carries into called fns. It's sort of kind of thread-local.
04:09	Cr8	fredyr: well at least we've got a minimum failing case now
04:15	quizdr	is there a way to see if a particular var is dynamic? I'd have thought that this is part of the metadata, but it appears not
04:23	clgv	it's indeed called thread-local binding ;)
04:24	clgv	,(meta out)
04:24	clojurebot	nil
04:24	clgv	,(meta #'out)
04:24	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name out, :added "1.0", :doc "A java.io.Writer object representing standard output for print operations.\n\n Defaults to System/out, wrapped in an OutputStreamWriter", :tag java.io.Writer}
04:24	clgv	,(def ^:dynamic bla)
04:24	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bla
04:24	clgv	,(meta #'bla)
04:24	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace sandbox>, :name bla, :dynamic true, :column 0, :line 0, ...}
04:24	TEttinger	heyyyy
04:25	clgv	so at least for self-"deffed" variables it is in the meta data
04:31	Cr8	what :dynamic does is change how code that references that var is compiled
04:32	Cr8	if you (def) over a var and define it as dynamic when it wasn't before, you'll be able to (binding) on it, but any fns that were compiled before you changed the metadata will only be able to "see" the root binding
04:33	Cr8	they will pick up the newly def'd value, as def changes the root binding
04:37	fredyr	Cr8: i found what the error was now
04:38	fredyr	Cr8: had a meeting, so i was away for bit
04:39	fredyr	Cr8: tbody is auto-inserted in html if it is omitted
04:39	fredyr	Cr8: which makes the diff fail
04:39	Cr8	ah
04:39	fredyr	Cr8: and everything blows up
04:39	Cr8	i saw that happening in chrome
04:39	Cr8	i guess react was unaware of the implicit tbody?
04:40	fredyr	yeah, it would seem so
04:40	fredyr	i realized it could be the reason when inspecting the dom elems in chrome
04:41	locks	do all the browsers insert tbody, or is this one of those wild west behaviours?
04:41	fredyr	its specified in the html4 spec
04:42	locks	ah ok
04:42	fredyr	http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-intable
04:46	quizdr	thanks guys, that was very useful, re: dynamic meta data
04:46	fredyr	https://gist.github.com/fredyr/8537199
04:47	fredyr	i made a gist of the code btw
04:47	fredyr	mostly to remember if myself
04:47	AeroNotix	Anyone using cloverage
04:47	AeroNotix	?
04:51	AeroNotix	It hangs after running the coverage+tests, really annoying for makefiles.
04:59	greywolve	fredyr and Cr8 : thanks, that's handy to know ;)
04:59	Cr8	welp
05:00	Cr8	now I've converted back to tables and things are fine now that I've put tbody in there
05:07	fredyr	Cr8: nice
05:11	dsrx	argh... anyone ever set up austin in a weird environment that isn't served over http? (like a chrome extension or spotify application)
05:42	quizdr	is Seesaw primarily for local interfaces like on a desktop JVM, or is it also a web interface builder for a browser?
05:46	CookedGryphon	quizdr it's very much swing oriented
05:47	CookedGryphon	I have been thinking about doing (or rather, really wish someone would do so I could use) a more generic interface/graphics library with js, swing, android backends
05:47	CookedGryphon	shouldn't be too tricky really, all the basics are the same, buttons, lines, etc. Just make it all data based and declarative
05:48	quizdr	ok, i just read about Seesaw and Swing for the first time, I'm not a Java guy so I was curious what they are.
05:49	CookedGryphon	you know when you download a java program, and it has a really ugly gui? That's swing
05:49	quizdr	ha ha
05:49	quizdr	i've read that Swing is the defacto standard in Java Gui development.
05:49	CookedGryphon	yep
05:49	quizdr	so what's the alternative that people use to make the un-ugly GUIs?
05:50	CookedGryphon	seesaw is really quite nice to use, redefining stuff and having the interface update in place
05:53	andrevdm	the seesaw source code is also very nicely commented. Great for learning
05:54	quizdr	but i guess if you are not targeting local devices then there isn't a lot of use for it
05:55	CookedGryphon	quizdr: not really
05:57	fredyr	another interesting choice for client ui is node-webkit and clojurescript
05:57	quizdr	fredyr that would be for a UI that runs in a browser right?
05:57	fredyr	no
05:57	fredyr	lighttable uses that
05:57	fredyr	and runs as a desktop app
05:57	quizdr	interesting
05:59	fredyr	running node for all platform interaction and chromium (aka html etc) for all uis
05:59	quizdr	light table looks nice but when i gave it a try it just didn't feel right.
05:59	quizdr	too spoiled from emacs already
06:00	quizdr	never thought i'd say that!
06:00	fredyr	:)
06:00	CookedGryphon	quizdr: the last release went a long way towards an every day usable release
06:00	CookedGryphon	and the plugin system looks really nice
06:00	CookedGryphon	just need people to work on all your emacs features now
06:00	quizdr	i tried lighttable just a week ago, it is beautiful.
06:01	fredyr	i excited to see all the different language plugins
06:01	fredyr	like haskell and ocaml and such
06:01	CookedGryphon	as a platform it's really really promising. Being able to extend it with clojure rather than my half knowledge of elisp...
06:01	quizdr	it's emacs for the modern age.
06:01	quizdr	maybe
06:01	CookedGryphon	quite possibly
06:01	CookedGryphon	the one thing that really really annoys me
06:02	CookedGryphon	is how the text doesn't all line up
06:02	fredyr	the interactive workbook idea is great for trying out new languages and playing around
06:02	quizdr	ah i noticed that, the indentation?
06:02	CookedGryphon	with emacs where everything is monospaced text, everything lines up so nicely
06:02	CookedGryphon	but with a web ui, where everything's designed to flow... it just doesn't feel as nice to my ocd brain
06:03	CookedGryphon	but it's probably more than flexible enough to make a version where it does
06:03	quizdr	is that the reason why lighttable has problems with indentation lining up correctly in code?
06:03	CookedGryphon	quizdr: that's probably something else
06:04	quizdr	when i started all this lisp stuff a few months ago, i tried very hard to use anything other than emacs. but i'm glad i stuck with it.
06:04	CookedGryphon	the text itself is monospace, but for example you can scroll half a line height down, and it doesn't line up with the other text in the ui any more
06:15	sandbags	CookedGryphon: can you screenshot what you mean? I've not seen anything i recognise from your description
06:15	sandbags	of course, possibly i don't want to know if that means i start seeing it everywhere... ;-)
06:16	CookedGryphon	:p
06:16	fredyr	haha
06:17	fredyr	i didn't see anything from that description either
06:19	sandbags	everything seems properly lined up when I scroll
06:19	sandbags	i'm on OSX
06:19	sandbags	possibly you're having a font issue on a different platform?
06:20	CookedGryphon	sandbags: no, you misunderstand
06:20	sandbags	more than likely
06:20	CookedGryphon	think about when you open emacs in the terminal
06:21	CookedGryphon	it's exactly the same
06:21	CookedGryphon	as it's restricted to the same monospace grid as terminal programs
06:21	CookedGryphon	and as a programmer, I really like that, the constraint keeps everything neatly in line
06:21	sandbags	i think the problem here is that I am not able to envisage your experience or how it varies with what i expect
06:21	sandbags	and text descriptions don't help :)
06:22	sandbags	i don't have a very visual imagination so you may be on to a hiding to nothing here :)
06:22	sm0ke	hello in datalog if i have a source which emits (src0 ?itema ?itemb ?value) and i want to join it with other source (src1 ?item ?vlaue2), and want to collect [?value ?value2]
06:22	sm0ke	but the problem is i want ?item to join with both ?itema and ?itemb
06:23	TEttinger	CookedGryphon, I know what you mean actually
06:23	sm0ke	i mean not both but either
06:23	TEttinger	the problem is partial-glyph-height scrolls
06:24	TEttinger	it does make it smoother, until you need to compare two chunks of code side-by-side
06:24	sandbags	are you describing a situation where you can scroll such that you have half a line visible at the top/bottom of the screen?
06:25	sandbags	if not then I will give in gracefully :)
06:25	TEttinger	sandbags, yeah. and if you have two side-by-side windows...
06:25	sandbags	okay because I don't see that here in LT
06:25	TEttinger	one is lined up right, the other is "off"
06:25	TEttinger	hm, maybe some fonts don't do it
06:28	CookedGryphon	it's not just side by side code either, but all the interface buttons/command bar things, see http://picpaste.com/pics/Untitled-uBGGw4pT.1390303496.png
06:29	CookedGryphon	it's not so much of an issue to start with, when the whole app conforms to the designers view (one window by default, just that command bar, etc), but once people start making plugins
06:29	sandbags	i can appreciate if that bothers you but i suspect that kind of polish is a vast distance from being a priority
06:29	CookedGryphon	it has the opportunity to go all over the place
06:30	sandbags	this also is true
06:30	CookedGryphon	it's not polish, that's exactly my point, the plugin makers aren't going to spend time on polish
06:30	CookedGryphon	might not be an issue
06:31	sandbags	i think if you're preference is a grid in the way you describe then, yes, any essentially web-based system isn't going to feel quite right
06:43	sm0ke	can i call -main function recursively?
06:43	arcatan	why not
06:43	Ember-	it's a normal function
06:43	Ember-	no reason why not
06:43	sm0ke	feels weird
06:43	sm0ke	(-main [x y])
06:43	sm0ke	doesnt it?
06:43	Ember-	well, that's a completely different conversation :)
06:43	Ember-	that being wierd :)
06:43	Ember-	but you can
06:44	wei__	what's a good way to put an element into a list, only if it's not a list? e.g. (listify 1) => [1] (listify [1 2 3]) => [1 2 3]
06:44	wei__	s/list/vector/
06:44	fredyr	wei__: into [] ?
06:45	andrevdm	wei__: must it be a vector? i.e. can you not use a set?
06:46	wei__	hm. yes, I can use a set
06:47	wei__	(into [] 1) doesn't work because it expects a list for the second argument
06:49	andrevdm	wei__: (conj #{1 2} 1) ; => #{1 2}
06:49	andrevdm	sets contain unique values only should do all the work for you
06:49	wei__	oh sorry, I wasn't being clear with the examples. I meant wrap a non-list element in a list.
06:50	wei__	but don't wrap if it's already a list
06:50	pyrtsa	wei__: Make an own function for it.
06:50	wei__	yeah sounds good
06:50	hyPiRion	only if it's not a vector?
06:52	hyPiRion	well ##(let [listify #(if (vector? %) % (vector %))] (map listify [1 [1 2 3]])) is probably the most straightforward one.
06:52	lazybot	⇒ ([1] [1 2 3])
06:52	wei__	here's what I got: #(if (coll? %) % [%])
06:52	wei__	yeah, that's pretty much what I came up with. thanks guys
06:55	hyPiRion	yeah, [%] is more readable
06:58	sm0ke	i have both :aot and :main keys in project.clj
06:58	sm0ke	still lein says :main specified without :aot
07:00	hyPiRion	sm0ke: append `:main` with `^:skip-aot`
07:00	sm0ke	no i gave :main [mynamespace]
07:01	sm0ke	it has to be :main namespace
07:01	hyPiRion	ah'
07:01	hyPiRion	yeah, there can only be one entry point to the uberjar :)
07:03	sm0ke	wtf
07:03	sm0ke	does uberjar runs with "hadoop jar"?
07:03	alew	if you have multiple applications within a single project, do you need to generate multiple uberjars?
07:04	sm0ke	alew: why not run with clojure.main -m namespacename
07:07	hyPiRion	alew: You should probably separate them into separate projects
07:10	sm0ke	i always had a difficulty with lein and runnable jar
07:11	sm0ke	it just doesnt work for me
07:54	juhovh	hmm, if I generate an interface with definterface (which calls gen-interface) how to refer to that interface in another namespace?
07:54	juhovh	and I know defprotocol is preferred to definterface, but anyway
07:55	juhovh	import doesn't work unless I'm compiling
07:57	effy	hi, i just installed lein, is there something wrong with my setup if the hello world application take 0m3.318s to run with "lein run" ?
07:58	greywolve	effy: no that's just the jvm start-up time
07:58	effy	greywolve: it's going to be a fixed cost on every single thing i code, or is there a way to bypass that, by let's say "pre-compile" the byte code or something ?
08:00	greywolve	effy: http://leiningen.org/grench.html , is one solution
08:00	katratxo	effy: usually you work inside a repl, not running "lein run" for testing your latest code
08:01	greywolve	effy: yeah you should try work in the repl as much as possible, if you need to write command line programs that run, and you don't want to incur that startup penalty then grenchman looks like a good option
08:02	alew	hyPirion: they share a lot of the same code but have different responsibilities
08:02	greywolve	for code reloading, https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace is great
08:02	alew	hyPiRion: server and worker in this case
08:03	effy	yeah sure, repl are good, but just by curiosity, if i wanted to let's say recode the "wc" linux binary, no matter how small the text i pipe to it i would always suffer 3sec delay ?
08:03	bob2	a jvm-hosted language would be a poor choice for that, yes
08:04	clgv	greywolve: thats wrong. only a small portion is jvm startup time, the rest is leiningen and clojure startup time.
08:05	greywolve	clgv: clojure start's pretty quickly, but yeah, its really 2 jvm processes starting
08:05	greywolve	starts*
08:05	greywolve	rlwrap java -server -Xmx800M -classpath $LEIN_CLASSPATH clojure.main -e "( do (require 'clojure.tools.nrepl.server) (clojure.tools.nrepl.server/start-server :bind \"127.0.0.1\" :port 4001))" -r
08:05	greywolve	is pretty fast
08:06	effy	i have never used the jvm before, would generating a .jar or some other kind of "pre-parsing" or "pre-byte-compiling" would reduce this jvm startup time or it's a definitive barrier ? (sorry i'm kind astubord :P)
08:06	clgv	greywolve: in all the startup time discussions the main problem mentioned is Clojure's initialization and all the stuff leiningen does
08:06	bob2	effy, no
08:06	greywolve	effy: you'll have to learn to love the repl ;p
08:07	greywolve	clgv: true
08:07	effy	greywolve: i dont think about devlopment cycle, i can give love to a repl, i think about the end product binaries, i didn't know clojure was only ment for long lived service, and not for fire and use binary
08:08	effy	would a clojurescript over nodejs have the same limitation in start up time ?
08:09	clgv	effy: well, you could keep a running jvm alive for often repeated short-lived tasks
08:10	juhovh	effy: clojurescript on nodejs is likely to be faster on startup, but probably slower after that
08:10	juhovh	effy: but you can confirm that by testing on your case
08:10	greywolve	effy: its probably not the best language for that sort of thing, but you can get around it but its never just going to be a fast executing binary i don't think, not sure about nodejs, maybe? try it ;p
08:11	effy	ok, thank all of you for the feedbacks
08:12	xsyn	the way I understand it is that they are quite different
08:12	xsyn	node.js is single threaded
08:12	xsyn	jvm is great for thread concurrency
08:14	clgv	effy: you could try clojure-py - but that one is not maintained anymore afair
08:17	effy	clgv: seem's fun, i would feel more at home having access to python libraries than java, but i'll give a chance to a jvm for a moment and come back to this bookmark later for fun :D
08:20	s4nchez	who
09:04	AeroNotix	RC4 Stream decryption/encryption libraries? Java/Clojre
09:04	AeroNotix	any ideas ?
09:05	AeroNotix	javax.crypto Cipher
09:19	sritchie_	otfrom: hey, posted the liberator thing
09:21	daGrevis	what is \a?
09:21	daGrevis	as in
09:21	daGrevis	,(seq "a")
09:21	clojurebot	(\a)
09:22	jcromartie	daGrevis: that's a character literal
09:22	jcromartie	in Java 'a'
09:22	daGrevis	thanks :/
09:23	daGrevis	is there any implementation of clojure that's not written in java or C# and is mature enough and stable?
09:23	daGrevis	clojure-py wasn't good enough
09:24	ddellacosta	daGrevis: does ClojureScript count?
09:24	jcromartie	it removes ambiguity because the reader doesn't have to read ahead to determine if 'a is just a quoted symbol, or if it might be the start of a character literal
09:24	daGrevis	ddellacosta, nop
09:24	ddellacosta	daGrevis: why not?
09:24	jcromartie	cljs still depends on the compiler
09:24	jcromartie	it's not self-hosted yet
09:24	ddellacosta	daGrevis, jcromartie: sorry, jumping into a conversation too late
09:26	ddellacosta	gotcha, guess we will continue to wait on CinC... https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC
09:26	daGrevis	,(Integer. (re-find #"\d" (str (first (seq "12")))))
09:26	clojurebot	1
09:26	daGrevis	^ not cool
09:26	clgv	is there an easy way to generate interactive graphs? I need to be able to click on nodes to display additional information
09:27	daGrevis	ddellacosta, it's something like pypy?
09:28	ddellacosta	daGrevis: I don't know, is pypy written in python?
09:28	jcromartie	daGrevis: what would you expect?
09:28	daGrevis	ddellacosta, yep!
09:28	jcromartie	,(first (seq "12"))
09:28	clojurebot	\1
09:28	daGrevis	jcromartie, easier way :P
09:29	jcromartie	um
09:29	daGrevis	well I need to get list of ints from string full of ints
09:29	daGrevis	s/ints/digits/
09:29	jcromartie	ok
09:29	daGrevis	"123" -> '(1 2 3)
09:29	ddellacosta	,(map #(Integer. %) "123")
09:29	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Integer>
09:29	jcromartie	,(map #(Integer. %) (re-seq #"\d" "123asf43r25"))
09:29	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 3 ...)
09:29	ddellacosta	whoops
09:29	jcromartie	like that?
09:30	daGrevis	you can't iterate through string
09:30	ddellacosta	^what he sez
09:30	jcromartie	you can with re-seq
09:30	daGrevis	til
09:30	jcromartie	,(re-seq #"." "asdf")
09:30	clojurebot	("a" "s" "d" "f")
09:30	daGrevis	neat one, thanks ;)
09:30	ddellacosta	daGrevis: yah you can
09:30	jcromartie	,(re-seq #"\d+" "123 test 435 zxcv 45")
09:30	clojurebot	("123" "435" "45")
09:30	ddellacosta	you don't even need that
09:31	jcromartie	ddellacosta: ?
09:31	jcromartie	unless you mean some java.lang.String methods
09:31	stuartsierra	,(map #(Long. (str %)) "1234567890"
09:31	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
09:32	stuartsierra	,(map irc://chat.freenode.net:6667/#(Long. (str %)) "1234567890")
09:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: irc:, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:32	stuartsierra	grrr
09:32	jcromartie	:) what
09:32	jcromartie	sure but I think daGrevis was wanting to avoid the conversion from char back to string
09:32	jcromartie	just deal with a seq of substrings
09:32	daGrevis	http://vpaste.net/0nnU5
09:32	stuartsierra	eh, whatever, reduce with subs
09:33	clgv	is there no clojure library for interactive graphs in a GUI?
09:33	jcromartie	clgv: you say that like you're surprised
09:34	daGrevis	imo you can use any java lib
09:34	ddellacosta	clgv: you mean, you just load up a graph (in what format?) and then view it graphically?
09:34	clgv	jcromartie: no not surprised just asking
09:34	zerokarmaleft	clgv: interactive in the d3-sense?
09:34	ddellacosta	oh, this is funny, just did it by accident
09:34	clgv	ddellacosta: I have an in-memory description of it as clojure data
09:34	ddellacosta	,(map #(-> % int) "123")
09:34	clojurebot	(49 50 51)
09:34	ddellacosta	heh
09:35	clgv	zerokarmaleft: interactive in the sense of displaying additional information via event handlers, e.g. mouse click on nodes
09:35	ddellacosta	clgv: when you say graph, do you mean like on the euclidean plane graph, or like https://github.com/aysylu/loom ?
09:36	clgv	ddellacosta: graph as the abstract idea in computer science with nodes and edges
09:36	ddellacosta	clgv: gotcha
09:36	daGrevis	ddellacosta, didn't know about ->
09:36	ddellacosta	take a look at loom ^ + graphviz then, I guess...?
09:36	ddellacosta	daGrevis: I love me some ->
09:36	clgv	I check whether loom fits
09:37	ddellacosta	clgv: yeah, haven't used it myself, but maybe if you can mangle your data a bit it'd work?
09:37	zerokarmaleft	graphviz doesn't enable interactivity, iirc?
09:37	clgv	no. it's just rendering.
09:38	ddellacosta	zerokarmaleft: I believe it generates static stuff
09:38	ddellacosta	although they do say " or display in an interactive graph browser." on the web site http://graphviz.org
09:38	zerokarmaleft	clgv: c2 might be an option for you if you're willing to shuttle your data into cljs-land
09:39	ddellacosta	zerokarmaleft: eh, wouldn't you end up building your graphing lib yourself in c2? I though it was rather barebones last time I checked
09:40	clgv	I used rhizome for graph visualization in a different project but it uses graphviz as well and thus no interactivity...
09:40	ddellacosta	seems like you'd get more mileage out of massaging it into d3 in that case
09:40	ddellacosta	ah
09:40	daGrevis	,(map #(-> % int) "123")
09:40	clojurebot	(49 50 51)
09:40	daGrevis	wait wut
09:40	daGrevis	how, ddellacosta ?
09:41	ddellacosta	daGrevis: ascii values of chars
09:41	daGrevis	right
09:41	jcromartie	,(map char (map int "123"))
09:41	clojurebot	(\1 \2 \3)
09:41	jcromartie	there and back again
09:42	ddellacosta	yep. I was trying to do something like what stuartsierra was doing above, but I kept getting java exceptions. String vs. Char or something.
09:45	stuartsierra	,(map #(Long. (str %)) "1234567890")
09:45	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
09:46	ddellacosta	stuartsierra: ah, there it is!
09:47	ddellacosta	couldn't get the syntax right
09:50	jcromartie	stuartsierra: why prefer Long over Integer? aside from the constructor "Long." being shorter than "Integer."
09:51	hyPiRion	jcromartie: Preferably neither, use Long/parseLong. Integers in general is autoconverted to longs I think?
09:51	jcromartie	yeah
09:52	jcromartie	now really, we shouldn't be converting to string and parsing it :)
09:52	xificurC	anyone using seesaw.bind? I'd need some guidance
09:52	jcromartie	(map #(Character/getNumericValue %) "12345")
09:52	jcromartie	,(map #(Character/getNumericValue %) "12345")
09:52	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
09:52	AeroNotix	how do I convert integers to signed bytes?
09:53	fredyr	,(type 5)
09:53	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
09:53	stuartsierra	jcromartie: Clojure defaults to Long everywhere.
09:54	xificurC	I am trying to join the logic of a radio button and a text box. Basically if the radio button is selected the text button should be enabled, otherwise disabled. But however I write the bindings it just doesn't seem to work
09:54	jcromartie	stuartsierra: true
09:54	jcromartie	huh, looks like Character/getNumericValue is slower than (Long. (str 5))
09:54	jcromartie	I mean (Long. (str %))
09:55	llasram	AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/llasram/8541480
09:55	devn	howdy
09:55	jcromartie	that's surprising
09:55	broquaint	xificurC: Like this? http://blog.darevay.com/2011/07/seesaw-widget-binding/
09:56	xificurC	broquaint: I read that a dozen times by now
09:56	llasram	jcromartie: There's two forms of the getNumericValue() method, which means Clojure needs to emit code performing reflection
09:57	xificurC	(b/bind (b/property (ss/select main-frame [:#other]) :selected?)
09:57	xificurC	(b/property (ss/select main-frame [:#delim-text]) :enabled?))
09:57	xificurC	this is my last (bad) attempt
09:57	llasram	jcromartie: Try #(Character/getNumericValue (char %))
09:59	AeroNotix	llasram: is there are library for this?
09:59	jcromartie	ah ha, llasram thanks
09:59	llasram	AeroNotix: Not that I know of off the top of my head
10:00	AeroNotix	llasram: damn, I don't want to c+p
10:00	devn	I have groups of items: [{:id 1 :name "todd"} {:id 1 :name "bob"} {:id 2 :name "betty"} {id: 2 :name "wilma"}]. I'd like to build a map {1 [{:id 1 ...} {:id 1 ...}] 2 [{:id 2...} {:id 2 ...}]} but i'd like the groups to be sorted by the name key. i've played around with it and haven't found a solution i'm happy with. any thoughts?
10:00	jcromartie	llasram: without the reflection penalty, Character/getNumericValue looks to be a little fast on average
10:01	llasram	jcromartie: Nice to align reality with expectations :-)
10:01	edbond	devn, sort-by ?
10:02	xificurC	https://www.refheap.com/26243
10:02	jcromartie	I forget about reflection...
10:03	devn	edbond: yeah, group-by + sort-by is what i've been using but what i've been coming up with feels long-winded
10:03	edbond	devn, sorry, I didn't read to the end
10:04	edbond	devn, probably reduce-kv fits better
10:04	devn	edbond: yeah, that's where i keep winding up as well
10:05	devn	which is fine
10:05	devn	perhaps by the time i go to do this operation i've built it up too much and it should stay in separate pieces that I can mold together rather than reordering things once it's all packed together
10:09	devn	in any event i'm going to probably rest on it and circle back this evening. i feel like i'm treating reduce almost like it's imperative or something. (reduce (fn [m [k v :as entry]] (...)) {} {:id 1 :name "todd"})
10:11	devn	it feels sort of like the: arr = []; [1,2,3].each {\|x\| arr << x}
10:11	devn	which grosses me out
10:13	devn	because reduce's fn actually has a few conditions, so it's worse: arr = []; [1,2,3].each {\|x\| arr << x if (x > 2); arr << x if ((x + 10) == 11)} etc.
10:14	devn	idk im probably just obsessing. back to work.
10:14	shep-werk	devn: (group-by :id (sort-by :name names)) "works"
10:14	shep-werk	at least for that one example
10:15	shep-werk	it relies on group-by maintaining the order
10:15	shep-werk	which the doc says it does
10:17	ToBeReplaced	devn: what's the issue with: (->> names (sort-by :name) (group-by :id))?
10:17	ToBeReplaced	sorry, what shep-werk said... was scrolled up
10:19	shep-werk	ToBeReplaced: ^5
10:20	devn	:)
10:20	devn	yeah, like i said, i think im overthinking it
10:21	devn	it was just starting to feel like i was gluing pieces together in a way that was less declarative than maybe my example above makes clear
10:23	ToBeReplaced	devn: i'd be trying to work with data like {1 ["bob" "bruce" "wilma"] 2 ["gerry"]} instead if that's what you mean
10:40	mmitchell	Can someone recommend a client lib for Zookeeper?
10:41	nDuff	...hmm; I don't remember any complaints from using zookeeper-clj, but haven't kept up since (and it's been a while).
10:41	mmitchell	nDuff: Is that this one? https://github.com/liebke/zookeeper-clj
10:42	nDuff	Yup.
10:44	devn	ToBeReplaced: yeah, that's exactly what i meant above
10:44	devn	ToBeReplaced: hence the "time to reconsider some of my previous actions"
10:51	mduerksen	is there a rationale behind the fact that clojure.string is not nil-tolerant like almost everything else? e.g. (clojure.string/replace nil #"pattern" "replacement) -> Exception. couldn't it just return nil?
10:56	technomancy	probably because clojure.string is a thin wrapper around java methods rather than using classes written just for clojure
10:56	technomancy	but nil is a mess; you can't really expect something called "the billion dollar mistake" to make sense
10:58	mduerksen	technomancy: whats wrong with nil?
10:59	arrdem	mduerksen: do you like the semantics of nillable objects?
11:00	CookedGryphon	it's hardly fair to compare null in that context with nil in clojure
11:01	mduerksen	i like that (get m :key-not-present) just returns nil instead of throwing up. i like that i don't have to blur the intent of my code with checks for existence and nil-checks
11:01	technomancy	that's just because we don't have proper pattern matching built-in
11:02	mduerksen	imagine (get-in m long-list-of-keys) when you would have to check every level for nil
11:02	technomancy	just match against an option type; that kind of thing is easily composable
12:28	bbloom	kristof: but look at how core.typed works. it type checks with union types
12:29	tbaldridge	bhauman: I don't see anything wrong with it ATM. I'll bookmark this and take a look at it later today.
12:29	bbloom	kristof: go look at some of the signatures of clojure.core functions & you'll see lots of examples of where it makes sense
12:29	bbloom	pyrtsa: static & dynamic typing is entirely orthogonal to sum vs union types
12:30	yedi	what are some of the cljs data visualization options
12:30	jcromartie	I like how Oracle has broken like 99% of incoming links to Java-related stuff since they took over.
12:30	bhauman	tbaldridge: Thanks!
12:30	jcromartie	now I can be redirected to lots of useful whitepapers instead of that silly API I was looking for
12:31	pyrtsa	bbloom: Oh, right. Btw, would your definition of union types align with the notion of row polymorphism?
12:31	pyrtsa	E.g. http://brianmckenna.org/blog/row_polymorphism_isnt_subtyping
12:33	bbloom	pyrtsa: i think they are unrelated. or at least it's not obvious to me how they are related
12:35	pyrtsa	Ok, nevermind.
12:37	sm0ke	does clojure aims backward compatibility?
12:38	sm0ke	or forward?
12:38	sm0ke	or wtfever
12:38	seangrove	Aims for World Trade Fever, I believe
12:39	pyrtsa	bbloom: Actually, your example was about augmenting the sum type A of (Even \| Odd) with Neither. That would create a new type B where x :: A => x :: B, but not vice versa. So there is a connection.
12:39	bitemyapp	sm0ke: aims for parenthetic post-scarcity.
12:39	nDuff	sm0ke: New releases of Clojure tend to be backward compatible with documented behavior. Undefined behavior, of which there's rather a lot, is prone to change without notice.
12:44	dnolen	nDuff: that's not really true either, there's lots of undefined behavior that will likely never change now
12:44	sm0ke	son of a bitch
12:44	devn	+1
12:44	sm0ke	found it
12:45	sm0ke	core.async is backward incompatible
12:45	nDuff	dnolen: true enough.
12:45	devn	speaking of undefined behavior
12:45	dnolen	sm0ke: alpha software
12:45	locks	dnolen: is there a way to add more vertical space in the tutorial? I accidentally jumped the dom/ul nil example straight to dom/ul #js etc
12:45	devn	is that patch to "fix" the pattern for valid symbols and keyboards actually going through?
12:45	devn	I like my "invalid" symbols and keywords
12:46	dnolen	locks: don't really have much control over formatting on Github
12:46	devn	also, """heredoc""" -- I really wish we could get that added. Is it really so awful for the reader?
12:47	technomancy	devn: triple quote is lame; we should have «heredocs» instead =D
12:47	devn	not trying to start another thread about it, but i really do wish we had a heredoc
12:47	devn	technomancy: honestly, i would be totally fine with that
12:47	devn	just /something/
12:47	technomancy	it's paredit-friendly!
12:47	devn	i almost adopted chiara simply to use """"""
12:48	sm0ke	there was a new rainbow paranthesis plugin for vim
12:48	sm0ke	couldnt find it now
12:48	devn	clownbarf.el
12:48	`cbp	why triple quotes?
12:49	devn	doesn't have to be triple quote
12:49	devn	but most of the chars are already taken
12:49	devn	haha
12:49	bitemyapp	oh no, Basho West Elevator follows me.
12:49	bitemyapp	This is not a good sign.
12:49	bitemyapp	`cbp: hi!
12:49	`cbp	bitemyapp: hello
12:50	devn	technomancy: do you remember where the most recent heredoc discussion ended?
12:50	devn	i know it's come up like a dozen times
12:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: surely you knew how I was going to feel about a dynamic scope + auto-arg-injection macro.
12:50	`cbp	heh
12:50	`cbp	soz :P
12:50	bitemyapp	devn: given how many dreams have been dashed upon the rocks of Mount JIRA, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
12:50	technomancy	devn: I'm too old to watch the repeated cycle of people proposing changes and getting shot down
12:51	bitemyapp	`cbp: nah nah, it's cool, I'll respond to the ticket. Makes for good doucmentation.
12:51	technomancy	it's all re-runs these days anyway
12:51	devn	technomancy: we can do it!
12:51	devn	cc bitemyapp
12:51	bitemyapp	devn: I'm gone baby.
12:52	devn	If people just quit obsessing over the syntax and make a decision on what will work best for EDN, cljs, and clj -- we're done
12:52	devn	someone has already implmeneted """heredoc"""
12:52	technomancy	we can't though
12:52	bitemyapp	devn: I've drunk the kool-aid and play with kittens and lenses now.
12:53	technomancy	don't have commit rights or the ability to perform remote hypnotism
12:54	bitemyapp	I would really like heredocs :(
12:54	`cbp	need a cognitect mob plant
12:54	gtrak	just find a way to make datomic need it
12:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: 4rlz.
12:55	sm0ke	whats the antonym for bumping a version?
12:55	bitemyapp	gtrak: that was actually the only reason I think I got Hickey to fix up the edn spec.
12:55	kristof	bitemyapp: You kept talking about extensible effects but it didn't occur to me that this would be Oleg-ware
12:55	technomancy	gtrak: because, you know, heredocs are way less useful than UUID reader literals
12:55	ToxicFrog	sm0ke: downgrade? Rollback?
12:55	llasram	sm0ke: Downgrade?
12:55	technomancy	M-x eyeroll
12:55	kristof	bitemyapp: Stumbled upon his paper on it while I was perusing other documents, so I'm in the process of reading it.
12:56	sm0ke	i would call it bounce
12:56	arrdem	devn: change links? or just rantings on jira..
12:56	bitemyapp	kristof: http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/extensible/
12:56	kristof	Yup, saw it
12:56	llasram	technomancy: shrug. I don't use UUIDs, but I have been making pretty extensive use of the tagged literal syntax
12:57	llasram	It's pretty nice to be able to define a way to print arbitrary things so that you can read them back
12:57	technomancy	llasram: I guess it's a neat idea in general, but both of the built-in examples of tagged literals are just bonkers
12:57	technomancy	either bafflingly useless or actively harmful
12:57	technomancy	llasram: eh; I got along fine with print-method
12:58	llasram	True. It's also not how I would have chosen to implement it. They'd be even more useful if there were a multimethod/protocol which gave you the data structure the tagged literal prints as
12:59	llasram	Well, with just print-method you can't read things back unless reading back as only Clojure data is fine, or you use the read-eval syntax
12:59	kristof	bitemyapp: From my understanding, it seems that a group of effects that can be arbitrarily composed and accessed can be modeled by a single monad, which is how Oleg models it. That's cool stuff!
12:59	bitemyapp	kristof: I was surprised you were focusing on Eff.
12:59	kristof	bitemyapp: Hmm?
12:59	devn	what if #^ came back?
12:59	sm0ke	llasram: i have a question regarding parkour
12:59	technomancy	llasram: right; I was just using read-eval; obviously that's not ok for client interactions
12:59	bitemyapp	kristof: well not only that, but by avoiding CPS-esque style, it can possibly be optimized without manual codensity.
13:00	devn	talking about heredocs again.
13:00	Raynes	""""""
13:00	kristof	bitemyapp: what the hell is manual codensity
13:00	llasram	sm0ke: You are in luck! I am at present the definitive source of answers regarding Parkour :-)
13:00	deadghost	sm0ke, you "bump up" so I guess it'd be "bump down"
13:01	sm0ke	llasram: can you run mapreduce jobs interatively from a repl on a cluster? i see that its not really specific to parkout but you would be knowing
13:01	bitemyapp	kristof: http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/01/problem-set-the-codensity-transformation/
13:01	sm0ke	deadghost: no there is no such thing as bump down
13:01	bitemyapp	kristof: meaning having to manually introduce it to optimize the code.
13:01	bitemyapp	kristof: no CPS/monads, no need.
13:01	sm0ke	bump indicated upward motion
13:02	technomancy	sm0ke: bump/drop
13:02	bitemyapp	sm0ke: (anamorphic / catamorphic) version transformation
13:02	deadghost	hmm
13:02	deadghost	pothole then?
13:02	sm0ke	bounce
13:03	llasram	sm0ke: Not yet / yes-if-you-squint.
13:03	deadghost	well depends on if you're using bump to describe something protruding up
13:03	deadghost	or the action of jolting
13:03	deadghost	since a pothole would cause a car to bump
13:04	llasram	sm0ke: If you launch a REPL with your cluster Hadoop config on the class path (and the correct version of Hadoop for your cluster), and manually add your JAR dependencies (include your actual job code) to the job, then you can launch jobs. I have in fact done this. It is not pretty
13:04	llasram	sm0ke: There is active discussion on the Parkour mailing list right now to make it pretty :-)
13:04	sm0ke	llasram: can you dynamically add jars to cluster classpath ?
13:04	sm0ke	llasram: without taking it down
13:05	sm0ke	oh you said to the job
13:05	kristof	bitemyapp: ah, so walking through monadic binds is expensive and wrapping everything in a codensity monad speeds things up, but that's a manual optimization. That's the gist of what I'm getting but I promise I'll work through the exercises sometime.
13:05	sm0ke	so you are saying i would still sumit a job
13:05	llasram	sm0ke: Depending on what you mean, yes. Regular MapReduce jobs launch a fresh JVM for each task, and can have any classpath you want
13:05	sm0ke	llasram: also whats the rationale behind parkour?
13:06	sm0ke	llasram: didnt cascaog fit your needs?
13:06	llasram	sm0ke: https://github.com/damballa/parkour/blob/master/doc/motivation.md :-)
13:06	sm0ke	llasram: ah ok thanks
13:06	sm0ke	will read that
13:07	RickInAtlanta	llasram = marshall?
13:07	sm0ke	later
13:07	llasram	Yep! Hey, Rick :-)
13:07	technomancy	,(apply str (reverse "llasram"))
13:07	clojurebot	"marsall"
13:07	technomancy	...
13:07	RickInAtlanta	Howdy
13:07	llasram	technomancy: The `h` is absent for historical reasons
13:07	technomancy	istorical reasons you mean?
13:08	llasram	hah! nice
13:11	fredyr	lol
13:13	dnolen	haha nice, http://twitter.com/jacob_ninja/status/425691247601123328
13:14	bitemyapp	kristof: it's a fine approximation.
13:15	bbloom	dnolen: persistent data structures are like alien technology from the future
13:15	bbloom	:-)
13:17	devn	updated the alternate string quote syntaxes: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Alternate+string+quote+syntaxes
13:17	devn	"""foo""" seems like a logical choice over <<HERE HERE, string interp, etc.
13:17	devn	it also fits nicely as a docstring
13:18	technomancy	oh gosh please no ruby-style heredocs
13:18	technomancy	so hideous
13:18	llasram	Anyone who currently has """""" in their code deserves everything they have coming
13:18	locks	technomancy: ahem perl-style heredocs
13:19	rasmusto	technomancy: heretics + docs = heredocs?
13:19	bbloom	llasram: i start all my programs with """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" just to be sure
13:19	gtrak	(take 3 (empty-string-seq))
13:22	`cbp	bbloom: has an EOF exception coming
13:22	bbloom	,"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
13:23	clojurebot	""
13:23	bbloom	,(list """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""")
13:23	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
13:23	bbloom	damn.
13:23	bbloom	i just held the keys down
13:23	bbloom	i figured 50/50 shot of getting an even number
13:23	bbloom	,(list """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""")
13:23	clojurebot	("" "" "" "" "" ...)
13:23	bbloom	`cbp: ther eyou go
13:26	egghead	does anyone have an example of using prismatic's schema library with cljs?
13:26	egghead	all I'm getting is a bunch of errors no matter what I try
13:28	deadghost	hmm I'm not using enlive snippets with templates properly
13:28	deadghost	and/or screwing up laziness
13:28	deadghost	https://www.refheap.com/26269
13:33	arrdem	tripple quoted strings could be ok.... far less breaking than heredocs.
13:33	arrdem	the HEREDOCS ... HEREDOCS is just outright madness.
13:34	`cbp	i vote for org-mode syntax
13:35	arrdem	wrt resource files: can't you already do ##(def my-commented-var (slurp "/resources/docs/user/my-commented-var.org") 3)
13:35	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
13:35	arrdem	`cbp: 2nded
13:35	technomancy	haha, org-mode syntax
13:37	llasram	`cbp: Wouldn't that get hairy then embedding Clojure in org-mode with org-babel ?
13:38	arrdem	llasram: no, because you can use tangle to make your text comments!
13:38	llasram	hah
13:39	arrdem	llasram: also mark((down)\|(up)) in a #+BEGIN_SRC #+END_SRC won't parse so you shouldn't be able to confuse yourself...
13:44	cark	hah this org-babel thing looks funny
13:44	RickInAtlanta	llasram: just read your motivation for Parkour. I am looking forward to your presentation.
13:44	cark	too bad it requires slime and swank =/
13:45	arrdem	cark: .... you're reading old docs then.
13:45	cark	arrdem: ah could be
13:45	arrdem	cark: org-babel is entirely language tooling agnostic, I've seen stuff about using it with nrepl before.
13:46	gtrak	llasram: we fuss with cascading... and serialization... a lot. Our code is littered with deftypes to deal with this.
13:53	llasram	RickInAtlanta: Should be fun! And keeping my fingers crossed for Clojure/West
13:54	gtrak	if there's one thing I could shoo away in hadoop, it'd be classloading.
13:55	gtrak	but that's basically like... java.
13:55	llasram	gtrak: Yeah. I did that (deftypes for serialization) for a few projects, but it got messy fast. With Parkour I've pretty much just been using Avro, with the protocol-based support in abracad to allow Avro serialization of arbitrary existing types
13:56	llasram	gtrak: I'm trying to remember... I talked to someone at Clojure/conj who had strong opinions about class loading, especially under Hadoop. Was that you?
13:56	gtrak	that might have been me :-)
13:56	gtrak	it's insufferable, but the structure of our project makes it worse, since we use a post-delegation classloader that embeds hive.
13:57	llasram	Interesting. Are you seeking to untangle this?
13:57	gtrak	now I'm investigating building classpaths by launching ourselves with the 'hadoop' script, which will at least automate some bash away.
13:57	gtrak	llasram: yea... it's just an issue of manpower and priorities.
13:58	gtrak	but we end up spending a lot of time on workarounds for classloading issues.
13:59	jcromartie	what's the way to create the inverse of a Java comparator?
13:59	gtrak	jcromartie: (comp - ..) ?
13:59	llasram	gtrak: Most recent Hadoop distro's `hadoop` command has a `hadoop classpath` subcommand. I've had better luck getting things in the right order by slapping the output of that at the end of the classpath for a manually-constructed `java` invocation
13:59	jcromartie	gtrak: comparators should return −1, 0 or 1 though
13:59	jcromartie	but that seems to work :)
13:59	gtrak	jcromartie: maybe I misunderstand the question
14:00	gtrak	that will invert an existing comparator by 'inverting' the results
14:00	jcromartie	yeah, seems to work close enough
14:01	gtrak	llasram: I think that'll mostly work, but there's some minor issues with slf4j and such. The hive thing is what ends up breaking first, and afaik that's unique to our project.
14:01	gtrak	we shouldn't have hadoop deps in a parent classloader.
14:02	llasram	gtrak: slf4j configuration, or duplicates?
14:02	gtrak	duplicates
14:02	llasram	Ok. Yeah, I'm building everything with leiningen, so just make judicious use of global exclusions and the `:provided` profile
14:03	llasram	I'm not quite sure what you mean by "hadoop deps in a parent classloader" though
14:03	llasram	My classloading knowledge is somewhat fuzzy
14:03	gtrak	yea, we could create classpaths with maven artifacts only, but that shifts burden to testing and integration.
14:03	gtrak	since we target multiple distros, that's hard.
14:04	llasram	Ah, I see. Hmm
14:04	shep-werk	jcromartie: comparator just says negative, 0, or positive, not -1, 0, 1
14:04	llasram	Build all uberjars, with a different build for each target!
14:04	gtrak	llasram: main classloader has cascading impls, child classloader calls hive, which has its own mapreduce code, which ends up using hadoop classes from the parent classloader.
14:04	jcromartie	shep-werk: close enough, but "complement" doesn't reverse that :P
14:04	jcromartie	anyway, using sort-by, and (complement :foo) works
14:05	gtrak	llasram: that's also on the table, but we need real devops :-), my boss says 'that sounds hard'
14:05	jcromartie	to actually reverse a Comparator, you can use (Collections/reverseOrder c)
14:05	gtrak	jcromartie: we have a 'compare' function that delegates to a comparator.
14:06	llasram	gtrak: Yeah.... That seems a hairier arrangement than I care to contemplate when not facing it myself :-)
14:06	llasram	gtrak: What do you mean by "need real devops"?
14:06	gtrak	llasram: automated integration testing and deployment, some VMs and scripts and such.
14:06	gtrak	we have continuous builds, but that's about it at the moment.
14:07	gtrak	jcromartie: and the main reason I'd prefer to use that is it works with sort-by
14:07	jcromartie	yup
14:07	gtrak	also sort..
14:07	jcromartie	I'm just playing with more complex sorting of maps, akin to SQL's sorting
14:08	jcromartie	(sort-by (juxt (complement :admin?) :username) users)
14:08	gtrak	jcromartie: ah neat
14:08	llasram	gtrak: Ah, I see. No one is yet using a deployment configuration management tool?
14:08	gtrak	nah
14:09	gtrak	I've played around with vagrant..
14:09	llasram	Introduce puppet/chef/ansible/whatever -- your ops team will love you :-)
14:09	gtrak	that's just it, no ops team to love me :-)
14:09	llasram	Well, or fight you to the death
14:09	llasram	Even better! Oh god, you'll save yourself so much time, and no one to fight to the death
14:09	gtrak	if I just did it, no one would oppose..
14:10	llasram	I think you have an incredibly clear call to action
14:10	lvh	PSA: don't use salt. Homegrown crypto is bad.
14:10	gtrak	that's what I was afraid of.
14:10	lvh	Especially for something that has root on all your boxen.
14:10	Cr8	<3
14:10	llasram	In a few months you'll wonder how you lived with yourself prior
14:12	gtrak	just saying 'hadoop sucks' to myself is deeply satisfying, but maybe a devops deployment would be more satisfying.
14:12	shep-werk	jcromartie: sorry, I thought I read the suggestion as (comp - existing-comparator); ie to negate it
14:12	gtrak	shep-werk: that's how I read it.
14:12	jcromartie	oh!
14:13	shep-werk	not complement
14:13	jcromartie	that makes perfect sense
14:13	llasram	gtrak: Little in life is more satisfying than triggering a cluster-wide deployment just by committing test-passing code
14:13	jcromartie	I missed the "-"
14:13	llasram	Well, maybe the smile upon your own child's face, but I the cluster thing is a close second
14:14	jcromartie	my kid smiles when she does something evil
14:14	gtrak	that sounds even more satisfying
14:15	gtrak	I just want to be in on it
14:17	gtrak	llasram: we hit an issue the other day, where if the JobClient static initializer is called from the child classloader first, the app won't start, so as a workaround we initialize those classes ahead of time in the main classloader.
14:17	gtrak	the error is reported as bad 'mapreduce.framework.name' config.
14:20	gtrak	it looks like it can't find the mapred-site.xml file.. but that's not really the case.
14:35	dobry-den	Is the general purpose of the -Xms JVM opt to claim the memory ahead of time?
14:38	jcromartie	dobry-den: yes, it avoids resizing the heap
14:39	llasram	gtrak: (was afk) Actually, that makes some sense -- the Configuration class maintains a static list of configuration files it looks up basename on the classpath, using the thread context classloader by default. When JobClient is loaded, it adds mapred-*.xml to that resource list
14:40	llasram	I'm not perfectly envisioning the chain of events, but there's definitely room for the wrong classloader to load a class which gets the string basename for a file which isn't on it's classpath
14:42	gtrak	llasram: yea, it's just nasty... it depends on which classloader ends up being the threadcontextclassloader at the time of init, I think, even though the parent is the only one that can actually load the class.
14:44	gtrak	maybe there's a way to set that
14:45	llasram	gtrak: You can set the class loader an individual Configuration uses to load resources, but I'm not sure how helpful that is
14:55	OscarZ	whats the Clojure way to do something like interfaces in Java.. say I want to have have multiple implementations for some interface.. for example Mysql implements DAO, Datomic implements DAO or something.. DAO interface has Object load() and save(Object o)
14:55	gtrak	~protocols
14:55	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-10-13.html#12:02
14:55	OscarZ	should I just create two namespaces with the same functions ?
14:57	cark	in one namespace : (defprotocol DAO (load [self]))
14:58	cark	in other namespaces where you define the actual objects : (defrecord Mysql [field1 field2] DAO (load [self] some code))
14:58	cark	you may use reify, or deftype in place of defrecord
14:59	cark	you may also extend your protocol to about anything
14:59	OscarZ	ok.. ill have to read up on them thanks..
14:59	OscarZ	i dont really have requirement to actually implement Java interface.. just want something where the rest of the code doesnt depend on the actual implementation
15:00	OscarZ	protocols are still the way to go?
15:00	cark	yes, though defining a protocol also define an interface
15:00	OscarZ	ok.. thats fine :)
15:00	gtrak	OscarZ: multimethods are more flexible, but slower.
15:01	gtrak	sometimes I feel like I want to make my dispatch function a multimethod.
15:01	cark	protocol are good for single dispatch, multimethods are good to dispatch on any variety of way
15:02	bbloom	gtrak: a multimultimethod!
15:02	gtrak	I don't know if that's a smell, so i avoid it.
15:02	cark	i think you may do that, don't you ?
15:02	deadghost	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21266570/enlive-snippet-in-template-produces-lazy-sequence
15:02	deadghost	anyone want to take a shot at that
15:02	deadghost	been trying to figure it out for at least 2 hours now
15:02	bbloom	gtrak: i dunno, seems not-too-insane to me, but i can't think of a good use case. what have you felt you needed that for?
15:02	mmitchell	Is there a webpage that lists sites/apps using Clojure?
15:03	jcromartie	deadghost: your defsnippet is totally wrong...
15:03	stuartsierra	mmitchell: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/clojure+success+stories
15:03	gtrak	bbloom: seems like you'd want open dispatch, no? I feel encoding things as equality or the hierarchy thing is kinda limiting.
15:03	mmitchell	stuartsierra: Nice thanks!
15:03	bbloom	gtrak: it's intentionally limiting to resolve ambiguous dispatch
15:04	technomancy	mmitchell: "last edited december 14, 2012" so take it with a grain of salt
15:04	gtrak	bbloom: like... I'm not sure how I'd do a defmethod, if I were using constants all defined in the dispatch function.
15:04	bbloom	gtrak: that is without having the runtime system prove logical implications of predicates :-)
15:04	mmitchell	technomancy: Ahh ok
15:04	jcromartie	deadghost: or I could be totally wrong :P
15:04	technomancy	mmitchell: for some reason that wiki page is locked
15:04	bbloom	gtrak: most of the time, my dispatch function is a keyword
15:04	deadghost	jcromartie, I got excited for a moment
15:04	stuartsierra	technomancy, mmitchell: we had some trouble with spam a while back, might be why
15:05	jcromartie	deadghost: try just using content instead of html-content?
15:05	gtrak	bbloom: yea, if the data's not hardcoded, I guess that solves my problem.
15:05	gtrak	the keywords that are returned from the dispatch
15:05	deadghost	GREAT JCROMARTIE IS GOING TO SOLVE EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE TELLS ME I HAVE AN OBVIOUS ERROR
15:05	deadghost	then disappointment
15:05	technomancy	at least four companies on that page don't exist anymore under those names =)
15:06	technomancy	correction: at least six
15:06	jcromartie	deadghost: I didn't realize you could use the hiccup style HTML generation instead of a filename in defsnippet
15:06	stuartsierra	technomancy: which ones?
15:07	technomancy	stuartsierra: backtype, geni, relevance, revelytix, runa, and weatherbill
15:07	stuartsierra	technomancy: thanks, noted
15:08	deadghost	jcromartie, picked it up from http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20811216/enlive-templating-adding-css-includes-to-head
15:08	gtrak	technomancy: revelytix exists, unless you know something I don't know :-)
15:08	deadghost	apparently hiccup style or java reader string thing is a ok
15:09	technomancy	gtrak: hm; everyone I know who was doing clojure there got let go; I assumed it was because they went under
15:09	gtrak	I'm still there and doing clojure, there's a few folks.
15:09	technomancy	oh, gotcha
15:09	jcromartie	deadghost: but since your snippet produces a seq of nodes, just use "content", not "html-content"
15:10	gtrak	technomancy: that wiki page is really out of date though, we don't mention 'semantic web' at all anymore.
15:10	gtrak	a hadoop shop now.
15:10	deadghost	oh geez I didn't even know there was a content AND html-content
15:12	domino14	how do i take the nth element of a sequence, and also build a sequence of everythign minus that element?
15:12	domino14	i know nth for sequence
15:13	jcromartie	you want "take" and "drop"
15:13	deadghost	yep jcromartie that did the tri
15:13	deadghost	ck
15:14	deadghost	jcromartie, want to type a response up saying use content instead of html-content and get some internet pts
15:14	deadghost	otherwise I'm answering myself
15:14	jcromartie	sure
15:16	jcromartie	yay internet points!
15:16	jcromartie	domino14: something like this
15:17	jcromartie	domino14: (defn pick [coll n] [(nth coll n) (concat (take n coll) (drop (inc n) coll))])
15:17	jcromartie	likely to be very bad for performance though
15:17	domino14	,(let [s [0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]] (concat (take 3 s) (drop 4 s)))
15:17	clojurebot	(0 1 2 4 5 ...)
15:17	domino14	what's a more performant way of doing it/
15:18	stuartsierra	I've updated Relevance/cognitect at least, and we have a TODO to update that wiki page.
15:18	AeroNotix	domino14: are you experiencing some slow code and have profiled it to your use of this specific code?
15:18	AeroNotix	domino14: if not; stop caring.
15:18	jcromartie	thanks AeroNotix :)
15:19	AeroNotix	jcromartie: pre-emptive optimization is horrible
15:19	jcromartie	I was just saying that since Clojure collections have different performance characteristics for indexing, removing, adding, concatenating, etc., that an operation which does ALL of those can't possibly be optimal
15:19	jcromartie	anyway, yeah, don't worry about it
15:20	AeroNotix	and if you do end up worrying about it, wrap a transient in a function
15:23	Notte	Is an idiom in clojure returning a tuple (value error) ?
15:23	gtrak	Notte: usually a vector, lines up visually with the destructuring syntax.
15:23	ToBeReplaced	domino14: i think a better approach is to figure out why you want to pop the nth element, and see if you can instead use a data structure better suited to your problem
15:24	Notte	gtrak: yeah, right. Thanks
15:25	Notte	gtrak: do you think it'd be better using an atom/symbol or a string for the error part?
15:27	gtrak	Notte: atom means something else here, error depends on the requirements of your app, there's lots of answers.
15:28	gtrak	usually I'll just return nil unless I really need a message, in that case I'll throw an exception.
15:29	gtrak	so I do a lot of (if-let [val (some-function of its arguments)] (logic) (error-logic))
15:29	gtrak	(logic val), rather.
15:36	deg	With lein-cljsbuild... I have two builds in the map under :cljsbuild. One has ":jar false"; the other ":jar true". But, when I do "lein jar", both .js files are included in the jar.
15:37	deg	I had understood that only production build (with :jar true) would be included.
15:38	dobry-den	What could cause a user to never see :flash data in a Ring app with wrap-flash?
15:42	llasram	If they have a flash blocker installed
15:42	llasram	~rimshot
15:42	clojurebot	Badum, tish
15:42	arrdem	people still have flash installed?
15:53	technomancy	stuartsierra: cool, thanks
16:02	BobSchack	devn ping
16:02	devn	domino14: ,(let [s (range 10)] (remove #(= 3 %) s))
16:04	devn	domino14: also, this is definitely more performant user> '(0 1 2 4 5 ...) ;)
16:20	r4vi	anyone know how to emit a zipper (created from clojure.zip/xml-zip) back to xml, clojure.xml/emit and clojure.data.xml/emit don't seem to work
16:21	r4vi	data.xml/emit complains that there is no EventGeneration protocol for PersistentStructMap
16:24	arrdem	so I'm reading the core... what's the backstory with the commented out public Object reduce(Fn) blocks?
16:26	tbaldridge	arrdem: link?
16:26	bbloom	arrdem: w/o looking, my guess would be that the impl started at the java level and was later re-done with protocols
16:27	arrdem	tbaldridge: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/ASeq.java#L91
16:27	arrdem	bbloom: yeah I'm expecting to see a lot of that...
16:28	arrdem	I'm just surprised since there's a commit from Rich ~6 years ago adding that block and none of the diff messages that I read explicitly mentioned deleting it.
16:32	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Agent.java#L116 whitespace patch? :P
16:33	bbloom	arrdem: rich told me that intellij fucked up the whitespace silently on him and he didn't notice until it was too late :-P
16:34	arrdem	bbloom: lolz
16:34	bbloom	arrdem: wouldn't get accepted anyway :-P
16:34	arrdem	bbloom: that's why :/
16:40	TimMc	Didn't notice until it was too late... I hope that means "I was too lazy to fix it", not "`git commit -a` erryday"
16:41	brehaut	justin_smith: whats your companies agency web thing urlled>?
16:42	justin_smith	ermdaherm?
16:43	brehaut	what is the url for the project :P
16:43	justin_smith	http://let-caribou.in/ this what you want?
16:43	brehaut	that it is
16:43	brehaut	thanks
16:43	justin_smith	and I look at that and realize there are more examples we could have on there
16:43	justin_smith	thisplace, teague, maybe others
16:44	justin_smith	also we hang out on #caribou if you want to ask us a bunch of caribou specific stuff
16:49	r4vi	anyone know how to turn a zipper back into xml?
16:50	bbloom	r4vi: clojure.zip/root
16:52	Raynes	bbloom: That doesn't return XML though, right?
16:52	Raynes	bbloom: That'll return the original tree structure.
16:52	r4vi	bbloom: yeah that works if I roundtrip without editing
16:52	Cr8	then you need to clojure.xml/emit it, yeah
16:52	Raynes	^
16:52	bbloom	Raynes: i assumed he meant the tree structure under the zipper
16:52	Raynes	r4vi: ^ follow the arrows
16:52	r4vi	I can do (xml/emit (zip/root zipped))
16:53	r4vi	but not zip/edit, zip/root, xml/emit
16:53	Raynes	After your edits, as long as you've still got a zipper, zip/root should work.
16:54	r4vi	yep zip/root works but trying to emit the resulting thing from zip/root gives NPE
16:54	Notte	Do i have to specify clojure.java.io as dependency inside the project.clj file to use it within the lein repl?
16:54	Notte	I can't require it in any way
16:54	r4vi	when it gets to my first edit
16:55	Notte	(require [clojure.java.io :as io]) doesn't work
16:55	technomancy	Notte: it's been part of clojure since 1.1 or 1.2
16:55	technomancy	you need to quote the symbols
16:56	Notte	Could you make an example please?
16:56	Notte	Because i tried..
16:56	technomancy	(require '[clojure.java.io :as io])
16:58	rurumate_	Notte: start repl from src/user.clj or test/user.clj. user.clj first line should look like this: (ns user (:require [clojure.java.io :as io])) Note when you use (ns :require) you don't quote the symbols
17:00	Notte	technomancy, rurumate_ after both commands io gives this error CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: io in this context
17:01	technomancy	Notte: yeah, that's expected; namespaces aren't really first-class like that
17:01	technomancy	clojurebot: the ns macro?
17:01	clojurebot	the ns macro is more complicated than it needs to be, but this might help http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
17:10	Notte	It finally worked. That article's helped me, thank you technomancy.
17:10	technomancy	np,
17:10	technomancy	it definitely is a bit weird at first
17:11	arrdem	more whitespace weirdness in compile.java...
17:13	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7793 this is my favourite line in Compiler.java
17:14	bbloom	Bronsa: lol i love how it's interned
17:14	bbloom	Bronsa: "this stupid string is VERY IMPORTANT
17:14	bbloom	"
17:15	Bronsa	bbloom: the funny thing is that it's dead code
17:16	arrdem	where is this?
17:16	bbloom	Bronsa: just because something is dead, doesn't mean it's not very important. those who don't study history... or some proverb like that
17:16	bbloom	or rather proverb_fdkkfdksfjs
17:16	Bronsa	ahah, right
17:25	zerowidth	nDuff: i love that metaphor
17:25	zerowidth	nDuff: so so much. imagine in even 20 years
17:28	rovar	zerowidth: I am a big Vinge fan. I got to eat lunch with him at a conference in SD a while. Super nice guy.
17:38	technomancy	jealous
17:38	rovar	do atoms have any odd behaviors with regards to namespaces?
17:39	rovar	e.g. if I use an atom in one ns from another, I don't have to do any special re-init or anything, do I?
17:39	`cbp	rovar: no
17:40	rovar	hmm.. I've been getting some odd behiavior since I refactored a datomic connection out into another ns..
17:40	rovar	I use it in main, and init in in main.. but in the repl, all of the symbols resolve, but the connection no longer works..
17:57	rovar	ah.. actually the problem is that datomic.api/connect silently fails sometimes..
17:57	rovar	super
18:01	baldandgoateed	rovar, do you hate me
18:02	baldandgoateed	because everyone hates me.
18:02	rovar	baldandgoateed: no, but maybe because I haven't gotten to know you.
18:05	domino14	i'm trying to use two nested for loops to accumulate a vector. the inner for loop would add on to the vector and the return of the whole function would be the vector
18:06	baldandgoateed	rovar, I think it is, everyone hates me.
18:06	domino14	i just cant figure out how to do that in clojure
18:06	baldandgoateed	domino14, I don't understand what you mean.
18:07	rovar	domino14: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
18:09	oskarkv	yeah, what is for loops?
18:09	TEttinger	for is a comprehension in clojure, which is a different usage
18:09	technomancy	clojurebot: for?
18:09	clojurebot	for is not used often enough.
18:10	jack_rabbit	heh
18:10	technomancy	that's not what I was looking for
18:11	baldandgoateed	rovar, do you already hate me.
18:11	baldandgoateed	Because everyone does
18:11	baldandgoateed	this includes AimHere.
18:12	jack_rabbit	domino14, it would help if you provided a testcase.
18:12	oskarkv	domino14 don't keep us in suspense. What are you trying to do?
18:13	domino14	ok
18:13	Notte	Is clojurebot a repl?
18:13	domino14	https://dpaste.de/KsxS i'm basically trying to generate that pseudocode in clojure
18:13	Notte	clojurebot speak up!
18:13	TEttinger	Notte, it can eval, but is only kinda a repl
18:14	TEttinger	some things are forbidden, like slurping from URLs
18:14	domino14	i've written the function "s without a" already, so my main problem is that i cant figure out how to add on to perm_list which is two levels up in the loop
18:14	Notte	TEttinger: how does it work? Is there an help?
18:14	Notte	clojurebot help
18:14	domino14	i understand what 'for' does in clojure, and it's not exactly what i want (since the outer 'for' loop doesn't 'return' anything)
18:15	jack_rabbit	domino14, why not do it with a recursive call and a for loop, just like your python there?
18:15	Raynes	Notte: There are two bots here that can evaluate code. clojurebot is triggered with a comma: ,(+ 2 2). lazybot is triggered with an ampersand: &(+ 2 2).
18:16	mmitchell	Hmm, there was a great post/article out there on the interwebs about why someone (I think the CTO was asking) would choose Clojure over other languages. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
18:16	TEttinger	,(str "Notte you can call code with a comma-starting line: " (+ 1 2 3))
18:16	clojurebot	"Notte you can call code with a comma-starting line: 6"
18:16	Raynes	lazybot also looks for code you've embedded in messages with ##(+ 2 2)
18:16	lazybot	⇒ 4
18:16	mmitchell	It might have been in the Google Groups, but I can't find it
18:16	technomancy	mmitchell: this one? http://www.colinsteele.org/post/23103789647/against-the-grain-aws-clojure-startup
18:17	domino14	ok, so the inner for loop looks like: (for [e z] (concat [el] [e])) -- this will eventually return ( (..) (..) (..) )
18:17	mmitchell	technomancy: No, but that one is good too -- I worked there :)
18:17	domino14	then the "outer" for needs to also "return" something because it's a comprehension, it needs that value at the end, but in the pseudocode, you see it's not supposed to "return" anything
18:17	Notte	Great, thank you, Raynes, TEttinger
18:18	domino14	it's only at the end, the return value for the function, that i can just say perm-list and that'll be the return value for the function
18:18	TEttinger	no prob Notte. you can also /msg clojurebot ,(+ 1 2)
18:18	TEttinger	or lazybot, actually
18:18	mmitchell	technomancy: There was a guy asking for feedback from people so it must have been on Google Groups. Lots of good feedback, I'll keep looking...
18:18	domino14	basically i ahve something htat looks like this: https://dpaste.de/ET11
18:18	Notte	Goodnight
18:19	domino14	and it's not really working, it's giving me (((0 1)) ((1 0))) instead of ((0 1) (1 0))
18:19	domino14	see how there's extra (( ))) ?
18:19	TEttinger	domino14, agh. there's an issue there with loop/recur being strongly preferred for recursive calls
18:19	domino14	i realize loop / recur are preferred for recursive calls, but i can't even begin to figure out how to use it here
18:20	jack_rabbit	until we get some TCO in clojure. :)
18:20	domino14	to turn that pseudocode into tail-recursive like that, it's just breaking my brain
18:20	domino14	so i'd like to do it the "right" way eventually, but it feels like first i ahve to figure out how to just implement that pseudocode
18:22	technomancy	mapcat maybe
18:23	aka	is there a defacto clojure micro-framework/lib for web dev? I use Flask (python) for most web projects now and wanted to try clojure. I'm not looking for a single page app framework.
18:24	technomancy	aka: compojure is the most widely used and afaik is close-ish to flask
18:24	aka	technomancy: thx I'll take a look at it
18:27	jack_rabbit	Yeah, compojure is really cool.
18:27	mpenet	hmm odd, unbound dynamic vars are true'ish ?
18:27	mpenet	,(def ^:dynamic foo) (when foo (println :dwa))
18:27	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
18:28	mpenet	bah, it prints here :/
18:28	mpenet	,(do (def ^:dynamic foo) (when foo (println :dwa)))
18:28	clojurebot	:dwa\n
18:28	hiredman	yeah, there is a special unbound var value, and it is not falsy
18:28	mpenet	bug?
18:28	hiredman	nope
18:29	mpenet	ah, surprising though
18:29	technomancy	does it depend on ^:dynamic?
18:29	hiredman	it isn't just dynamic vars either
18:29	tpope	it does not, just tried
18:29	baldandgoateed	hiredman, did you know that there are people who are flipped internally, like they are mirrored on the inside, everything which is left in most people is right in them
18:29	baldandgoateed	1 in 10 000 people apparently is flipped like that
18:29	tpope	what does that even mean
18:30	rasmusto	,(reverse "baldandgoateed")
18:30	clojurebot	(\d \e \e \t \a ...)
18:30	hiredman	I did know that, infact
18:30	tpope	oh you mean like their organs?
18:30	tpope	was expecting philosophical drivel
18:31	nDuff	baldandgoateed: weren't you just talking about this in #xml?
18:31	rasmusto	looking in a mirror is weird too, or listening to your own voice, but that's a perception thing
18:31	baldandgoateed	nDuff, yeah
18:31	nDuff	baldandgoateed: there are -offtopic or -social channels on the network, fwiw.
18:31	baldandgoateed	I am talkinga bout this everywhere.
18:31	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Var.java#L31-L45
18:31	baldandgoateed	THere is an offtopic clojure channel?
18:31	baldandgoateed	nDuff, where?
18:31	aka	I didn't know of situs inversus... gotta love #clojure
18:32	nDuff	baldandgoateed: no, but Clojurians don't necessarily have more need to be informed on this topic than Pythonists. You'd have just as much audience in #python-offtopic. :)
18:32	hiredman	I forget what that was added for, but it wasn't always the case, rich mentioned the change on irc some years ago
18:32	technomancy	there used to be an offtopic clojure channel
18:32	technomancy	maybe #clojure-lounge or something
18:33	baldandgoateed	nDuff, I'm banned there
18:33	oskarkv	domino14 https://www.refheap.com/26323
18:33	rasmusto	I'm always blown away by the number of commented-out lines in the clojure source, most of them existed in some release, right?
18:33	mpenet	hiredman: thanks
18:33	hiredman	rasmusto: no
18:34	oskarkv	domino14 one key thing is that if (= 1 (count items)) you must wrap it in a seq because it's supposed to be a seq of the permutations, which are seqs
18:34	tpope	rasmusto: hallmark of using a shitty scm you don't trust. and clojure started in svn
18:34	rasmusto	hiredman: unimplemented features?... oh
18:35	hiredman	rasmusto: my guess is rich just likes to fiddle and try stuff out
18:35	rasmusto	I assume it must be a combo of both
18:35	kristof	language lounges always suck
18:36	hiredman	sure
18:36	domino14	thanks i'll study this code
18:36	rasmusto	btw, that intern var_blah_foiwjefwoe thing from earlier totally cracked me up
18:37	rasmusto	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7793 that one :)
18:39	oskarkv	domino14 feel free to ask questions :p
18:40	arrdem	rasmusto: AAAH NO SPOILERS I'm still reading that file :P
18:41	arrdem	technomancy: is #clojure-lounge registered?
18:42	technomancy	arrdem: no idea; I have only vague memories from years ago
18:43	arrdem	technomancy: it isn't registered to anyone...
18:47	rasmusto	arrdem: working your way through all of the source?
18:47	TEttinger	domino14: ##(let [k-filter (fn [el coll] (filter #(not= el %) coll)) perms (fn [n coll] (if (= n 1) (map vector coll) (for [el coll nlis (perms (- n 1) (k-filter el coll))] (conj nlis el))))] (perms 4 [1 2 3 4]))
18:47	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: perms in this context
18:47	TEttinger	ha
18:47	arrdem	rasmusto: that was the idea..
18:48	TEttinger	##(let [k-filter (fn [el coll] (filter #(not= el %) coll)) permute (fn perms [n coll] (if (= n 1) (map #(vector %) coll) (for [el coll nlis (perms (- n 1) (k-filter el coll))] (conj nlis el))))] (permute 4 [1 2 3 4]))
18:48	lazybot	⇒ ([4 3 2 1] [3 4 2 1] [4 2 3 1] [2 4 3 1] [3 2 4 1] [2 3 4 1] [4 3 1 2] [3 4 1 2] [4 1 3 2] [1 4 3 2] [3 1 4 2] [1 3 4 2] [4 2 1 3] [2 4 1 3] [4 1 2 3] [1 4 2 3] [2 1 4 3] [1 2 4 3] [3 2 1 4] [2 3 1 4] [3 1 2 4] [1 3 2 4] [2 1 3 4] [1 2 3 4])
18:49	TEttinger	it's a port of http://ktuman.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html
18:49	AeroNotix	are there any libraries for treating byte-arrays like strings? (SOMELIB/split)
18:49	AeroNotix	etc
18:50	technomancy	AeroNotix: typically you'd operate on a seq of an array for things like that
18:50	technomancy	as long as laziness isn't a problem
18:51	AeroNotix	technomancy: hmm, ok. Cheers!
18:55	mrhanky	(defn foo ([x y z] ...) ([a] ...)
18:56	mrhanky	)
18:56	mrhanky	is it possible to write something like this? (foo (if cond? a x y z))
18:57	TEttinger	mrhanky, condp = a
18:58	TEttinger	though I'm not quite sure what you mean
18:59	mrhanky	i have function which accepts [a] or [x y z]
18:59	TEttinger	you can use apply and a sequence
19:00	hyPiRion	mrhanky: (apply foo (if (pred? ...) [a] [x y z]))
19:00	TEttinger	(inc hyPiRion)
19:00	lazybot	⇒ 29
19:01	hyPiRion	eventually just (if (pred? ...) (foo a) (foo x y z)), which is not that bad in this case, really.
19:01	mrhanky	i was just wondering if there is something to just have one call to foo
19:02	domino14	sheesh
19:02	domino14	what does ## do
19:02	oskarkv	it's for the bot, it's not clojure
19:02	`cbp	it calls lazybot
19:13	aphyr	amalloy_: Raynes: would it be possible to enable ,(source foo) for lazybot in #riemann?
19:15	Raynes	aphyr: I don't think clojure.repl/source works inside lazybot, and even if it did I don't think the sandbox would allow it.
19:15	aphyr	kk. (doc) works, so I was kinda surprised
19:15	aphyr	but source-fn appears to be dark magic
19:15	Raynes	aphyr: That's because I rewrite doc specifically for lazybot.
19:15	aphyr	oh nice, haha
19:15	Raynes	:p
19:15	Raynes	rewrote*
19:16	Raynes	aphyr: So, there is a $source command but I think it links to out of date docs.
19:16	aphyr	hmm. I need (source) to work outside the repl for Meitner. Might have to take a stab at it.
19:16	Raynes	$source println
19:16	lazybot	println is http://is.gd/ewuFP7
19:46	domino14	how does (remove {#2} [0 1 2 3]) work?
19:46	domino14	#{2} sorry
19:46	domino14	what does #{..} mean?
19:46	domino14	,(remove #{2} [ 0 1 2 3])
19:46	clojurebot	(0 1 3)
19:47	insamniac	(remove #{2 3} [ 0 1 2 3])
19:47	insamniac	i am a failure
19:47	bbloom	domino14: explore with the class function and try using #{...} as a function directly. ask again if it hasn't become clear after that
19:48	domino14	i don't know how to find what that syntax itself means #{..}
19:48	ivan	,(type #{})
19:48	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
19:48	insamniac	,(hash-set)
19:48	clojurebot	#{}
19:49	insamniac	,(hash-set 1 2 3)
19:49	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
19:49	domino14	,(= #(= 3 %) #{3})
19:49	clojurebot	false
19:50	domino14	,(#{3} 4)
19:50	clojurebot	nil
19:50	domino14	,(#{3} 3)
19:50	clojurebot	3
19:50	domino14	,(#{3 4 5} 3)
19:50	clojurebot	3
19:55	oskarkv	domino14 here's all the reader stuff (like #{}, #(), etc.) http://clojure.org/reader
19:59	domino14	oskarkv: so for your code, i'm not sure what the apply concat does
20:00	domino14	what do the terms look like that come to it?
20:00	bbloom	(doc apply), (doc concat)
20:00	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
20:00	bbloom	experiment with them :-)
20:00	bbloom	(doc concat)
20:00	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
20:04	oskarkv	The inner for generates a subset (the one for the permutations where item has been removed and so on) of all permutations, but the out for generates a list of subsets. But the permutations should not be split up like that. It's just an artifact of the implementation.
20:04	oskarkv	domino14 ^
20:04	oskarkv	outer*
20:14	Denommus	hi
20:14	Denommus	anyone here worked with Luminus + Cassaforte?
20:23	akurilin	What do you guys do with your ring app logs? Right now I'm just logrotating at 10mb up to 100mb total. I imagine next step is storing them all centrally once the ring app gets cloned onto multiple machines?
20:33	RickInAtlanta	LF vs CRLF which one is windows, which one is linux
20:34	Denommus	CRLF is Windows, LF is Linux
20:34	Denommus	I'm really confused about how to use cassaforte with Luminus, and the documentation does not help
20:34	RickInAtlanta	thx
20:35	teslanick	What's the current thinking on writing a simple parser in clojure?
20:35	akurilin	I can never remember the CRLF thing because Windows came way after Unix, yet it adopted the more ancient teletype standard, so it escapes reason.
20:35	RickInAtlanta	I am trying to do what will be my first ever pull request, and now I am thinking I shouldn't do it from windows
20:36	quizdr	teslanick clojure is great for parsing just about anything
20:37	teslanick	Yeah. I was going to base my format on edn, but clojure (like all rational programming languages) hates tokens in the form of 3d6.
20:37	Denommus	how would I create schema migrations in Cassaforte?
20:37	teslanick	Which is to say I'm fooling around with a simple dice rolling tool.
20:47	Cr8	teslanick: https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse has been handy for me
20:48	Cr8	though I generally just hack dice-strings together with regexes >>
20:50	teslanick	Yeah, it's fine if you want 3d6 + 4. But if you want something that represents: "roll 4d6, drop the lowest, and if the sum is less than 9 reroll"
20:51	teslanick	I don't necessarily want that kind of complexity, but having that door open seems worth the extra initial time investment.
20:51	teslanick	So thanks for the tip
20:54	hiredman	3d6+3
20:54	clojurebot	14
20:56	teslanick	1d20+4
20:56	clojurebot	15
20:56	teslanick	Well.
20:57	arrdem	teslanick: just go ahead and build something cooler :D
20:57	teslanick	challenge accepted.
21:01	teslanick	122
21:03	Denommus	is there any good migration library for CQL in Clojure?
21:04	quizdr	is there a way to see how a reader macro is implemented? I'm curious how ~@ is written
21:06	hyPiRion	,'~@my-list
21:06	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote-splicing my-list)
21:06	quizdr	,(doc unquote-splicing)
21:06	clojurebot	"; "
21:07	hyPiRion	best doc.
21:07	quizdr	hm ok
21:07	hyPiRion	$source unquote-splicing
21:07	lazybot	unquote-splicing is http://is.gd/EHA4TP
21:07	gozala	what’s the idiomatic way to let producer of channel know you no longer want to get data put on the channel ?
21:07	hyPiRion	gurr.
21:07	quizdr	i don't get it
21:07	quizdr	the implementatino is empty?
21:11	hyPiRion	quizdr: no, it just reserves the symbol for the reader. Look at LispReader, most notably https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.4.0/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L745-L882
21:14	quizdr	I'm just curious how a function operating on an expression could splice the expressions inside the expression into the parent expression.
21:15	quizdr	i guess it is not handoled in clojure itself, hence the java code block you linked to
21:18	srruby	A while back I briefly tried switching my data structures to using records rather than maps. I reverted when I found that postwalk didn't work with records. Any thoughts on this? Thanks, John
21:21	quizdr	what does postwalk mean? i know you can't use keywords as functions with records as you can with maps
21:24	quizdr	sorry i meant the opposite
21:32	quizdr	srruby perhaps you could convert the record to a map for use with the postwalk function
21:34	domino14	i need to make my permutation function generate permutations of 10 elements and sort them alphabetically. i guess that wasn't the way to do it because it's been running for like 30 minutes
21:34	quizdr	srruby turn your record into a map like this: (into {} (->aaa 1 2))
21:34	domino14	that's only ~3.8 million elements, why so slow clojure
21:35	brehaut	afternoon talios
21:39	srruby	quizdr Thanks!
21:40	srruby	quizdr Do you recommend using records as opposed to maps?
21:42	dj_ryan	hey folks, is there a good way to convert a multi-module maven project into lein?
21:42	clojurebot	No entiendo
22:01	danno1	So, the loop form (at least I think it is a form) looks semantically like recursion
22:11	quizdr	srruby there is a lot of overlap between them, and i'm fairly new to clojure so i'm not the best one to answer, but here are the considerations: maps are also function of their keywords, records are not. records however allow you to adopt protocols. and if you are going to have several different maps with the same structure, records are better since the keywords are not taking up duplicate space in all the maps.
22:11	srruby	Thanks!
22:14	bbloom	srruby: generally, default to maps, use records if you have a good reason to
22:14	bbloom	srruby: and the even if you think you have a good reason to use records, make sure your reason is actually good :-)
22:15	cark	am i right in thinking that only clojurescript supports specify ?
22:16	bbloom	cark: yes
22:16	cark	allright, any caveats i should be aware of ?
22:16	uvtc	In my repl, after loading clojure.java.sh :as sh, why doesn't this work? : `(sh/sh "ls" "*.txt")`? It doesn't seem to like the star, because `(sh/sh "ls" "-l")` is fine...
22:17	srruby	bbloom: I thought I'd see if records would improve the programs speed.
22:17	bbloom	srruby: depends greatly on the program
22:17	egghead	uvtc: the bash repl actually expands that star for you
22:17	uvtc	(I realize I should probably be using Raynes' `fs` for that particular need anyway though.)
22:18	egghead	so the process that is actually invoked from the shell has no wildcards
22:18	egghead	raynes' directory search as tree-seq is cool :)
22:18	Raynes	egghead: huh?
22:19	egghead	file-seq
22:19	uvtc	egghead, though, I may need to sometimes use "*.whatev"... how can I keep the repl from trying to expand it for me? I've tried single-quoting it, and also backslash escaping...
22:20	egghead	oh nvm Raynes didn't realize file-seq was clj core
22:20	Raynes	egghead: I was terribly confused.
22:22	egghead	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4504 is such a cool use of tree-seq
22:22	cark	so there's no way to work with protocol the same way in clojurescript than clojure via extend and a map of functions ?
22:28	arrdem	Compiler.java:2732 more whitespace weirdness....
22:32	Raynes	arrdem: What's sad is that you can fix all of the issues with Compiler.java in one simple command.
22:33	arrdem	Raynes: rm -rf?
22:33	Raynes	arrdem: rm Compiler.java && touch compiler.clj
22:33	Raynes	<3
22:33	arrdem	Raynes: good news, thanks to Bronsa's c.t.a.* work that's what I hope to do before I graduate...
22:38	newturtle	i'm writing a simple tree search, and have a tree composed nodes, where a node is just a a couple fields and a pointer to a parent. once i get to a end node, i want to walk from the ending node up to the root mood via the parent relation.
22:39	arrdem	newturtle: you're gonna have a really really bad time expressing that datastructure unless you resort to atoms..
22:39	newturtle	i have this working, but i know its a mess, as i just set an atom vector and loop through while parent not nil? and swap conj the parent onto the vector
22:40	newturtle	ok...so that was my eventual question. it just doesn't feel idiomatic to me, so i was wondering if i was going about it wrong.
22:42	arrdem	newturtle: so the real answer to this problem is that you cannot express this datastructure in idiomatic Clojure without using Java interop.
22:43	arrdem	newturtle: because a child must have a ref to the parent and vice versa, both must be created at the same time which is impossible because "modifiying" one to point to the "other" changes the first and invalidates the cycle hence your use of atoms
22:44	alandipert	newturtle: sounds like a candidate for a zipper
22:44	arrdem	newturtle: the real answer is that you use a directed tree from parents to children and build something like the zipper library to access it.
22:44	arrdem	$google clojure zippers github
22:44	lazybot	[clojure/data.zip · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure/data.zip/
22:44	newturtle	well, i build it singly directed, so the child knows of the parent, but not vice versa.
22:44	Raynes	Zippers are the solution to everything.
22:44	newturtle	so i am alright in that regard.
22:45	newturtle	my question is really just once i get the final child, a simple way to traverse back up the tree and collect the nodes i hit.
22:45	arrdem	newturtle: ooh. okay I see what you're doing.
22:46	newturtle	let me look at zippers, maybe something will click.
22:46	arrdem	anyone got better ideas than an explicit loop? I'm not thinking of a reduce or for based solution to this...
22:47	arrdem	you could also do this with a tail recursion... but that's not any better than an explicit loop really...
22:47	arrdem	(dec also) ;; I'm downvoting also and so whenever I use their names
22:47	lazybot	⇒ -1
22:57	quizdr	bbloom would you say that having many maps with identical keys could be a good reason to use records instead?
22:58	bbloom	quizdr: define "many"
22:58	bbloom	or quantify, rather
22:58	quizdr	say a hundred or more
22:58	quizdr	where maybe the maps have 30 keys that are all identical
22:59	bbloom	at a hundred or so, you have to also quantify how many times you're doing what to them
22:59	bbloom	and a record with 30 key entries is unlikely to perform well.... nor can i conceive of when you'd ever want to do that
22:59	bbloom	a more realistic number of keys for a record is < 10
22:59	bbloom	more like 2 to 5
22:59	quizdr	i see, so a map is better for large key sets?
23:00	bbloom	again, depends on what you're doing
23:00	cark	if you have a map that could be made a record and it has 30 keys, there's something wrong
23:00	quizdr	i was just thinking that since the keywords themselves would not be taking up space in each individual instance of a record, just in the definition of the record, that many maps with identical keys could benefit from records for that reason
23:00	bbloom	it's a data structure and therefore it depends on your workload
23:00	quizdr	so the underlying of implementation of maps and records is considerably different, despite that they have a very similar interface?
23:00	Bronsa	arrdem: http://sprunge.us/WXJE?java here, this should be better.
23:01	bbloom	quizdr: the underlying representation of small maps and big maps are very different too!
23:01	bbloom	,(class (array-map))
23:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
23:01	bbloom	,(class (hash-map))
23:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
23:01	bbloom	,(class (sorted-map))
23:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
23:01	Bronsa	arrdem: indented+all the commented out code removed
23:01	bbloom	,(defrecord Point2D [x y])
23:01	clojurebot	sandbox.Point2D
23:01	oskarkv	are records more like array-maps?
23:02	bbloom	,(class #sandbox.Point2D{:x 5 :y 10})
23:02	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
23:02	quizdr	i see, so the system will automatically determine the underlying implemenation of a map based on its size, and this is something invisible to the programmer
23:02	bbloom	quizdr: it's not all that mysterious
23:02	bbloom	quizdr: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentArrayMap.java#L177-L178
23:04	quizdr	I'm coming to clojure only with a common lisp background, and feel a bit behind the curve since i've never written or read Java in any capacity before
23:05	bbloom	if you have 100s of maps with 30 keys in common each, you probably have a bad representation for your problem
23:05	quizdr	that's possible
23:05	oskarkv	bbloom so why do you say that a record of 30 keys are unlikely to perform well? It seems similar to a map, is it not?
23:05	oskarkv	is*
23:05	JacobGood1	Hello, is anyone willing to lend me a hand, I need help with understanding macros
23:05	oskarkv	JacobGood1 shoot
23:06	bbloom	oskarkv: b/c the implementation will be similar to an array map. right now the clojure threshold for promoting an array map to hash map is 16 items
23:07	bbloom	oskarkv: so if you have an array map of more than 16 items, it stands to reason that it's likely to be slower than a hash map
23:07	quizdr	bbloom so all records are array maps, despite their size?
23:07	bbloom	they are not quite array maps, they are simply similar
23:07	newturtle	alright, zippers dont seem like the right fix.
23:07	oskarkv	bbloom ah ok
23:07	bbloom	records have one major advantage, which is that :keywords used for lookups can be compiled to direct field access
23:08	newturtle	here's a paste showing what i'm trying to do.
23:08	newturtle	http://pastebin.com/H00MjUSf
23:08	bbloom	that the MAIN win of records
23:08	bbloom	if you're doing higher-order lookups on records or whatever, you're gonna get array map or worse perf
23:08	bbloom	but if you have 30 fields, i can't imagine you needing to access each individual field by name with a direct keyword lookup....
23:09	quizdr	in studying the relationship of records to protocols, i felt a bit like it was an attempt to bring OOP patterns into lisp. but I'd think that records/protocol functionality is mostly there with maps/multimethods or is this naive?
23:09	alandipert	newturtle: i'll cook up a zipper example for you - it will look similar
23:10	hiredman	quizdr: I would say they are more like the type classes of haskell, if you are familiar
23:10	technomancy	quizdr: yes, one of the annoying things about records is that people tend to think that they're a way of doing traditional OOP, but that is not the intent
23:10	quizdr	no hiredman i'm not
23:10	alandipert	newturtle: oh wait - the objects you're searching contain their parent but not their children?
23:11	hiredman	quizdr: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/OOP_vs_type_classes might be a good place to read about them then
23:11	technomancy	quizdr: that is, you're not the only one to have that mistaken impression =)
23:11	newturtle	yeah...i build the tree downward...
23:11	quizdr	it would seem that multimethods are more flexible than protocols and can do a lot of the same things as far as dispatch is concerned, without having to "bundle" a bunch of different method names together.
23:12	newturtle	so it is singly linked. i just want to collect the solution nodes. what i have works...it just feels a little clunky.
23:14	hiredman	quizdr: but the arbitrary dispatch nature of multimethods also limits how fast they can be
23:14	quizdr	hiredman oh i see
23:15	hiredman	the grouping of functions in to a protocol is often kind of nice
23:16	alandipert	newturtle: https://www.refheap.com/26388 is an alternative that comes to mind
23:16	hiredman	protocols are fast open ended dispatch on type (meaning you can extend a protocol to a type without defining the type to say it implements such an such an interface) while multimethods provide arbitrary dispatch, and hierarchy based dispatch
23:17	alew	isn't the main point of protocols to interop with interfaces?
23:17	hiredman	protocols are in some sense, simpler, and more suited to the bottom of a stack
23:17	hiredman	alew: absolutely not
23:18	alew	so they are just an optimization then?
23:18	hiredman	people tend to get tripped up because on the jvm protocols also happen to generate an interface that you can use to improve the dispatch speed
23:18	hiredman	but that is not core to the notion of protocols
23:20	hiredman	http://debasishg.blogspot.com/2010/08/random-thoughts-on-clojure-protocols.html seems like a good write up
23:20	newturtle	hmm. that is interesting. if-let only assigns parent if it isn't nil then? interesting.
23:24	newturtle	i tried again with transient, and it was a bit simpler, but yours still seems better.
23:24	newturtle	(http://pastebin.com/rE7ate5j)
23:24	newturtle	but either way, it seems like i'm not terribly far off on the approach?
23:25	hiredman	you are
23:26	hiredman	there is no need for a transient, right?
23:26	hiredman	(recur … (conj stack some-value))
23:28	newturtle	yeah, you're right.
23:29	alandipert	newturtle: https://www.refheap.com/26394 is another way, a 'backward' zipper that kind of abuses the concept
23:30	wei__	anyone know how to configure BoneCP (jdbc connection pool) to use a set-parameters function?
23:31	seancorfield	Not sure what you're asking wei__ - set-parameters?
23:31	wei__	seancorfield: so without a connection pool, i can include a :set-parameters function in the spec map, that takes a preparedstatement and applies some custom transforms
23:31	newturtle	heh, alandipert, you're getting me into the deep end i think! i'll have to work through that one. your first was pretty easy for me
23:32	seancorfield	the pooled connection is also just a map
23:32	seancorfield	add :set-parameters to that map
23:32	newturtle	here, without the transient. that's about as simple as my original can be made i think. http://pastebin.com/XJ9gSEvF
23:33	seancorfield	see the docs wei__ http://clojure-doc.org/articles/ecosystem/java_jdbc/connection_pooling.html#create-the-pooled-datasource-from-your-db-spec
23:33	newturtle	thanks for the help, i'm glad to know i'm not going way off trail here.
23:33	seancorfield	the result of (pool db-spec) is a map {:datasource cpds} so assoc :set-parameters into that
23:34	wei__	ahh, that works! that's the docs I'm following, but I wasn't sure how set-parameters was used
23:34	wei__	(inc seancorfield)
23:34	lazybot	⇒ 10
23:35	seancorfield	it's all just maps, all the way down :)
23:35	seancorfield	java.jdbc adds stuff to the map as it works to track transactions and so on
23:35	alandipert	newturtle: one advantage of making a 'stack' param is that a user can supply their own collection, like a list, to get the path in another order (leveraging conj polymorphism)
23:36	seancorfield	but for the most part the "db-spec" is opaque
23:36	wei__	i see
23:36	newturtle	oh yeah, that's a good point.
23:37	seancorfield	even if you start with a JDBC connection string, you get a map as soon as you try to connect using it, e.g., inside a transaction
23:39	wei__	well before I added the set-parameters key there was just the :datasource and nothing else
23:41	arrdem	Bronsa: hah thanks
23:42	alandipert	newturtle: and, of course, https://www.refheap.com/26399 :-)
23:46	newturtle	oh man, that one is crazy.
23:48	newturtle	wow, that's elegant. i never yould have come up with it.
23:48	newturtle	*would
23:48	sdegutis	Is there a new Internet yet?
23:51	sdegutis	Chrome kills my laptop and CSS is hard. It's 2014, surely we can do better than this.
23:56	quizdr	sdegutis actually i'm using Internet 2.2 and it's promising, but in closed beta so I can't really talk about it
23:57	TEttinger	sdegutis: IRC isn't good enough?
23:57	sdegutis	quizdr: Makes sense. Most things in startup-culture are closed beta for life.
23:57	sdegutis	TEttinger: Good enough for the time being.
23:57	sdegutis	I'm gonna delete my website as a boycott to the current Web.
23:58	sdegutis	You guys got just a few minutes to check it out.
23:58	sdegutis	http://sdegutis.github.io/
23:59	TEttinger	heh, I'm doing one of your goals