#clojure – 2014-01-15

2014-01-15

00:03	rubber-duck	so the error goes away when I remove the recur in catch block
00:05	AJ256	Anyone: localrepo plugin, pomegranate library, creating a local maven repository, etc. I've found a lot of different answers on Google for how to add local jars as dependencies to leiningen projects. Anyone in here have any experience and an opinion on the fastest/easiest way to add a local jar as a dependency?
00:17	bendb	,(help)
00:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: help in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
00:18	ddellacosta	AJ256: I think it depends on what you are trying to do with it. For something experimental that I'm not actually hacking on, I'll simply run lein install in the lib directory and then require it from the relevant project. But I've used checkouts in the past if I've wanted to work on the library's code at the same time as the project using the lib. Pomegranate and lein-try seem to be great if you're just trying out a lib to see if
00:18	ddellacosta	you want to use it (although, I've never used pomegranate and I may not understand its use-cases well).
00:20	ddellacosta	AJ256: honestly, don't understand the use-case for lein-localrepo either. Seems like it's just giving you more fine-grained control over your default local maven repo?
00:20	ddellacosta	granted, seems handy
00:21	AJ256	Thanks, ddellacosta. I'm trying to hack on a lib at the same time as the library that depends on it. And I don't want to release it to the world until I'm ready. (It's for work. It's open source, so I can put it on clojars eventually, but I need to have a certain minimum level of quality before I release it.)
00:22	AJ256	*at the same time as the app that depends on it
00:22	ddellacosta	AJ256: in that case, I imagine putting the lib in the checkouts directory would work the best for you: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L273
00:23	ddellacosta	AJ256: sorry, this is probably a better link: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
00:23	ddellacosta	maybe you're already familiar with checkouts though
00:24	alew	is it possible to cider-jack-in with a particular leiningen profile?
00:24	AJ256	I'm still relatively new to clojure, and even newer to leiningen, so no. Not familiar with checkouts yet.
00:27	AJ256	ddellacosta: yes the second link makes a little more sense to me than the first. :D
00:27	ddellacosta	AJ256: yep, sorry 'bout the confusion. :-)
00:29	AJ256	Ha, not at all ddellacosta! Thanks for the tips! I'll check this out tomorrow and give it a go.
00:29	AJ256	Thanks!
00:29	ddellacosta	AJ256: np, good luck!
00:36	eric_normand	I like Clojure :)
00:36	grncdr	I was just thinking the same thing
00:36	grncdr	I need to find a small contract where they don't care about the implementation so I can build a full webapp in Clojure
00:37	eric_normand	have you tried the "it's just a java library" approach?
00:39	ddellacosta	eric_normand: loved your post re: Hindley-Milner in Clojure, btw. Been learning Haskell lately and it nicely dovetails with what I've been learning.
00:40	Tolstoy	Hm. Any reason [clojurewerkz/cassaforte "1.3.0-beta7"] doesn't seem to pull in dependencies?
00:40	eric_normand	ddellacosta: thanks. I'm glad you liked it
00:40	Tolstoy	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.cassandra.db.marshal.UTF8Type
00:41	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: is it possible an older version of cassandra is getting pulled it by something else?
00:41	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: Not sure. I created a new project (first use of cassandra ever).
00:42	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: ah, okay, then sounds like maybe not. I would do a lein deps and poke around. Sorry I don't have much more than that...
00:43	Tolstoy	Time to revisit good ole ~/.m2, eh? ;)
00:43	abaranosky	bitemyapp: sorry I dissappeared after asking you guys about a JSON library. I totally forgot I had asked, and some work stuff came up.
00:44	abaranosky	We haven't yet identified any performance issues with any particular JSON serialization library, but a coworker was wondering which would be fastest. I always use Cheshire because I like its flexibility.
00:45	eric_normand	Tolstoy: try lein deps :tree
00:45	Tolstoy	eric_normand: Did that right off. Maybe it should be pulling in something but isn't.
00:46	Tolstoy	eric_normand, ddellacosta: https://github.com/clojurewerkz/cassaforte/issues/26
00:46	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: ah, there ya go. :-)
00:47	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: Wow, that pull in half the internet. ;)
00:51	Tolstoy	beta8 did the trick. Sheesh! ;)
01:17	andyf	OK, basic question about protocols here (I haven't used them in my code yet). Why is there a warning if you create two protocols that have a method name in common?
01:18	hiredman	andyf: they aren't methods, they are functions, they live in vars as per normal
01:18	hiredman	so they will overwrite each other
01:19	andyf	hiredman: OK. But there is no warning if you re-defn the same function multiple times.
01:20	hiredman	andyf: I imagine the defprotocol macro checks and issues the warning
01:20	andyf	I mean, I guess I'm not complaining that someone was considerate enough to put in the warning. Just surprised me at first.
01:22	hiredman	protocols are neat, and can do some cool stuff, but there are all kinds of fiddly bits people tend to screw up, so sadly, best to avoid them
01:22	hiredman	lots of confusion around functions and methods and protocols and interfaces
01:23	logic_prog	if a document is copyrihted, how many people can I share it with for educational purposes?
01:24	hiredman	that isn't even getting in to the problems you can have with stale classes and weird classloader issues and what not
01:28	andyf	Is there some special significance or behavior to protocol methods whose name begins with a dash?
01:29	amalloy	andyf: no
01:29	hiredman	it is a convention for protocol functions that are the underlying implementation for some other function to be so named
01:29	hiredman	so if conj was part of a protocol you might have conj as the function and -conj as the underlying protocol function
01:30	hiredman	(convention meaning dnolen does it in clojurescript)
01:30	andyf	good to know. Sort of like the convention where foo* is a function that does most of the heavy lifting for a macro named foo
01:30	andyf	hiredman: and core.logic
01:30	amalloy	yeah, i was going to say dnolen just uses it for all protocol functions
01:30	amalloy	but hiredman is probably more right
01:34	andyf	Might just be a bug in Clojure/Java, but defining a protocol where the method name begins with a dash, and only one arg, causes a reflection warning (if they are enabled), but I don't see any other combinations that do that.
01:34	hiredman	andyf: are you using the latest master?
01:35	andyf	hiredman: 1.5.1, I think. I'll try it with latest to see if anything changes
01:35	hiredman	I seem to recall a bug like that, but I thought it was patched
01:38	andyf	Sounds familiar. Probably this one http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1202
01:39	amalloy	oh good. i thought i fixed that; glad to hear it's just not in a release yet
01:50	chare	ok so the problem with clojure is that its dynamically typed which means I can't convince my friends to use it
01:51	chare	how do I love that
01:51	chare	solve that
01:51	andyf	find new friends
01:51	andyf	:)
01:52	chare	and haskell is just too scary to them to even contemplate
01:53	bitemyapp	abeaumont_: what-evs.
01:53	bitemyapp	oh. wrong person.
01:53	bitemyapp	n/m
01:53	bitemyapp	sigh dammit baranosky.
01:55	chare	so andyf no solution for me?
01:55	andyf	chare: I gave you one, albeit not terribly seriously. Could work, though, if you wanted to go for it.
01:57	chare	isn't there something like typed clojure or something
02:00	egghead	chare: typed clojure, while cool, probably won't sell people who don't like dynamic typing on dynamic typing
02:00	chare	egghead uh explain why not
02:01	bitemyapp	typed clojure isn't that nice or fundamental to clojure
02:01	bitemyapp	it's a way to harden up code.
02:01	egghead	chare: because compile time checks or else!
02:01	egghead	:p
02:02	egghead	i'd just explain how clojure offers everything you need for typed systems with multimethods, protocols, etc
02:02	egghead	you can program to contracts, you can dispatch off type
02:02	egghead	you can enforce inputs and outputs at the bytecode level what more do these people want
02:03	chare	egghead you're making things too complicated, they only understand the term static typing
02:03	chare	anything more is too complicated
02:05	egghead	chare: just tell them that clojure is staticly typed with such good type inference that you don't need to declare the types
02:05	chare	but thats lying
02:05	chare	they know i'll be lying
02:05	egghead	then when they ask about types because they pass the wrong type just teach them about multimethods and protocols
02:06	egghead	lol chare
02:06	egghead	obv
02:06	egghead	but if they don't want to learn you aren't going to convince them to by saying 'dynamic typing!'
02:07	chare	egghead damn it i'm going to be stuck with python or ruby forever
02:07	egghead	wut
02:07	egghead	if they are using ruby or py they can certainly use clj as an alternative
02:09	chare	thats not how they think
02:14	noonian	hmm, but both python and ruby have dynamic typing?
02:16	chare	they make exceptions for ruby and python...
02:19	chare	ok this is what I'm going to do
02:19	chare	give them clojure ultimatum
02:19	chare	not budge
02:20	eric_normand	chare: they have authority to choose python and ruby? but you don't have same authority to choose clojure?
02:22	chare	ok so if I suggest clojure whats to stop them from countering with nodejs
02:24	andyf	chare: If you are looking for some kind of irrefutable argument for Clojure that everyone will be convinced by, you aren't going to find one.
02:24	andyf	nor for any other technology
02:25	chare	andyf so in other words you're saying my friends are stupid
02:25	noonian	just not interested in learning clojure from the way it sounds
02:25	andyf	I am saying that there are practically no statements in the world that you could get everyone to agree on. Don't bemoan the fact, just accept it and move on to more interesting questions.
02:28	andyf	Make Clojure your hobby, even if it isn't your day job. If it is really important to you that it is your day job, get better at it and look for opportunities.
02:33	chare	so lets go back to making a game in clojure
02:33	logic_prog	let's figure out how to make money with clojure
02:34	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I like your idea.
02:34	noonian	yes!
02:34	logic_prog	bitemyapp: I feel that clojrue makes me a 10x engineer
02:34	logic_prog	thus, i should be able to make 1M /year
02:34	bitemyapp	logic_prog: math looks right.
02:34	logic_prog	bitemyapp: you look like a 20x engineer. Tell me about your 2M / year job.
02:35	logic_prog	I'm thinking baout building a search service on top of dropbox
02:35	logic_prog	i.e. a better way to search through your dropbox docs
02:35	bitemyapp	logic_prog: cool.
02:38	ddellacosta	man, I like source maps but they really seem to slow down my incremental compilation
02:38	logic_prog	bitemyapp: you have any good ideas?
02:39	bitemyapp	logic_prog: I'm sorry, was that supposed to be a serious question?
02:39	chare	lets use clojure in same way to thwart the nsa
02:39	bitemyapp	logic_prog: it's a little hard for me to tell at the moment who is being serious and who is not.
02:41	noonian	its a superposition
02:41	logic_prog	yes, the company is both alive and dead until one tries to raise a VC round
02:42	logic_prog	once the VC measures things like growht, revenue, etc ... then it's forced to either "funded" or "not-funded" stage
02:46	quizdr	the doc for both (ns) and (in-ns) both say: Sets ns to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it
02:46	quizdr	if needed. So what exactly is the difference?
02:46	hiredman	ns is a macro that contains a call to in-ns in the expansion
02:47	hiredman	in-ns is a function
02:47	hiredman	use ns
02:48	quizdr	why do books such as Halloway's often suggest/teach to use in-ns? there must be some reason
02:49	amalloy	halloway's book is older than the hills, but even then i expect if he's telling you to use in-ns you're probably mistaken. ns was around then, right?
02:49	amalloy	he might be explaining to you how it works, just in case you ever need to know
02:49	quizdr	no, i'm reading the second edition, just released.
02:50	hiredman	in-ns is often used to change the value of ns while at the repl
02:50	noonian	yeah, in-ns is useful from the repl
02:50	quizdr	so again, what is the actual difference between using it or just ns, even from the repl?
02:51	noonian	use ns in your programs, thats where you do all your requires and imports. use in-ns from the repl to switch to the ns's declared in your programs and test your code
02:51	andyf	Try this at a REPL, and you will see everything that (ns foo.bar) does that in-ns does not: (pprint (macroexpand '(ns foo.bar)))
02:51	SegFaultAX	quizdr: The difference is in-ns is a function, whereas ns is a helper macro.
02:53	quizdr	andyf that's useful thanks
03:15	logic_prog	in cljs, is it possible to create a _buffered_ cljs/chan that has _infinite_ size?
03:15	logic_prog	i.e. I want the buffer to just continuousy grow
03:15	logic_prog	rather than have a limit
03:17	mischov	I believe I remember something in some talk about core.async that mentioned not allowing that foot-shooting to occur, but I could be entirely wrong.
03:18	logic_prog	this is foot shooting?
03:18	logic_prog	to have a channel without a buffer
03:18	logic_prog	hmm
03:20	SegFaultAX	logic_prog: Unbounded buffering is expressly prohibited. Back pressure is a good thing, embrace it.
03:20	mischov	"What we do not provide and will not provide are unbounded buffers"
03:21	mischov	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/clojure-core-async at 23:00
03:22	SegFaultAX	Because it makes absolutely no sense.
03:23	SegFaultAX	What rationale could there be for "I want this buffer to grow until all available ram is consumed, and my application crashes unrecoverably due to OOM"
03:24	quizdr	that can be a desirable effect for anyone writing a virus, so there is some use
03:25	SegFaultAX	Java isn't the most typical platform for virus authors.
03:25	quizdr	tell that to Android users
03:25	SegFaultAX	And anyway, it would be a relatively short lived attack unless -Xmx == total available vram.
03:26	SegFaultAX	quizdr: It's not as if Android is /only/ capable of running Java.
03:26	bitemyapp	logic_prog: don't do that.
03:26	logic_prog	noted
03:26	logic_prog	yeah, watching Rich Hickey take it apart
03:26	quizdr	not an Anroid user or developer but I thought Java was the official language of Android
03:27	SegFaultAX	Official is not the same as only permitted language.
03:27	SegFaultAX	There is a native toolkit as well.
03:27	quizdr	but it is the most widespread language, and Android is also the most virus-prone mobile OS, so Java is indeed a target of virus authors
03:27	SegFaultAX	quizdr: http://developer.android.com/tools/sdk/ndk/index.html
03:28	SegFaultAX	I don't have any evidence to support or reject that claim. The point is authors would not be limited to java.
03:29	quizdr	http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/14/apple-enterprise-android-malware/
03:30	SegFaultAX	quizdr: Greater freedom for the consumer comes at the cost of larger attack surfaces.
03:31	quizdr	Android is likely the reason Java is now a major target of virus authors.
03:31	mischov	Not particularly applicable, but made me think of it.. http://java-0day.com/
03:32	SegFaultAX	quizdr: It probably has more to do with the Android market share dwarfing all other platforms, globally.
03:33	SegFaultAX	There are also more viruses targeting MS platforms than OSX platforms. Does that imply that OSX is more secure? Of course not, but why go after something that has 5 - 10% of the overall market share when you can instead attack something that has > 85%
03:34	bitemyapp	safari is easier to hack these days than IE, but IE is the bigger target.
03:34	bitemyapp	that wasn't always the case.
03:34	logic_prog	is the behabior of "put!" on a full channel defined?
03:34	SegFaultAX	IE also happens to be one of the most (if not /the/ most) standard compliant browser.
03:34	logic_prog	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cljs/core/async.cljs#L87 sys very little
03:34	SegFaultAX	That sure as shit wasn't always the case.
03:35	quizdr	my point was simply that Java is a source of virus writing after all, regardless of the reasons
03:38	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: uh, sorta. IE9 still flakes out on some stuff.
03:38	bitemyapp	Java browser JRE is a fat source of exploits.
03:38	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: IE9 is a piece of shit. I'm talking about 11
03:39	quizdr	IE is sure not as much of a joy to use as other browsers though. for example, IE has nothing on lynx
03:39	bitemyapp	I like this guy.
03:39	SegFaultAX	quizdr: That's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, though.
03:39	bitemyapp	can we keep him?
03:41	quizdr	hi
03:58	testcloj`
03:58	testcloj`	(def a {:a []})
03:58	testcloj`	(def b {:a 2})
03:58	testcloj`	(def c [{:a 2} {:a 3}])
03:58	testcloj`	(merge-with conj a b) -->this works
03:58	testcloj`	(merge-with conj a c) --> this doesn't work, since c is a vector, but how to make it work?
04:01	noonian	,(let [a {:a []}, c [{:a 2} {:a 3}]] (map (partial merge-with conj a) c))
04:01	clojurebot	({:a [2]} {:a [3]})
04:02	quizdr	noonian nice
04:02	amalloy	(apply merge-with conj a c)
04:02	TEttinger	amalloy, that only works if a is a map, right?
04:03	amalloy	although it's rather suspect that the types of the values in a are different from those in b
04:03	amalloy	well uh...it is a map?
04:03	TEttinger	well if c and a are reversed it fails right?
04:03	amalloy	like, nothing involving merge-with a will work if a is not a map
04:03	quizdr	amalloy how is your apply any different than the original example?
04:03	quizdr	aren't they both just calling merge-with with the same args?
04:03	amalloy	(apply f x [y z]) => (apply f x y z)
04:03	amalloy	er
04:03	amalloy	(apply f x [y z]) => (f x y z)
04:04	quizdr	ah the apply splices for you, got it
04:04	noonian	,(let [a {:a []}, c [{:a 2} {:a 3}]] (apply merge-with conj a c))
04:04	clojurebot	{:a [2 3]}
04:05	noonian	so different semantics and it depends on what he wanted heh
04:05	TEttinger	,(let [a {:a []}, c [{:a 2} {:a 3}]] (apply merge-with conj c a))
04:05	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
04:05	quizdr	hanging out in this room is like going to a party except you leave with more brain cells
04:06	TEttinger	this one's a bit of a brain-bender yeah
04:09	magnars	Anyone know how/why/where Ring adds ;charset=ISO-8859-1 to my Content-Type header? And possibly how I can make it serve utf-8 instead?
04:10	noonian	,(let [a {:a []}, c [{:a 2} {:a 3}]] (reduce (partial merge-with conj) (conj c a)))
04:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>
04:11	AeroNotix	any docs on running compojure with SSL?
04:11	noonian	,(let [a {:a []}, c [{:a 2} {:a 3}]] (reduce (partial merge-with conj) {:a []} (conj c a)))
04:11	clojurebot	{:a [2 3 []]}
04:11	noonian	hmm
04:12	AeroNotix	or with ring w/e. I cannot use nginx to terminate SSL connections since this application is processing CC information, and thus all connections need to go through SSL for PCI compliance
04:21	noonian	i think friend can do ssl
04:22	noonian	see https://github.com/cemerick/friend and http://clojure-yap.blogspot.com/2013/07/setting-up-friend-few-preliminaries.html
04:22	clgv	AeroNotix: pretty easy. just configure jetty to use SSL. you'll need to pass it a keystore containing the certificate
04:23	AeroNotix	clgv: ok cheers
04:23	clgv	AeroNotix: (jetty/run-jetty routes {:ssl? true, :keystore "path/to/keystore.ks", :key-password "verysecret"})
04:24	clgv	better not include it in the source ;)
04:24	AeroNotix	:)
04:25	mischov	magnars: ring-middleware-format might be what you're looking for
04:27	mischov	magnars: or it might not be. either way, https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/content_type.clj
04:29	magnars	mischov: ah, yes, I've got that. The problem is that it forces iso-8859-1 on me for some reason.
04:29	TEttinger	magnars, that's the encoding of cmd.exe on windows by default I think
04:30	TEttinger	if things are being piped through there, it might explain it
04:31	magnars	it's probably the encoding on my terminal as well, even if it is on OSX. So I have to find a way to override the default encoding in Java somehow?
04:31	mischov	Try making a handler to set the content type as UTF-8
04:33	mischov	er.. not handler, wrapper... middleware wrapper
04:33	magnars	yeah, that works. Thanks.
04:34	testcloj`
04:34	testcloj`	how to create the following
04:34	testcloj`	([] [] [] [])
04:34	testcloj`	I tried the following, but doesn't work
04:34	testcloj`	(take 4 (repeatedly #([])))
04:35	noonian	,(doc repeatedly)
04:35	clojurebot	"([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"
04:35	TEttinger	,(repeat 4 [])
04:35	clojurebot	([] [] [] [])
04:35	quizdr	,'([] [] [] [])
04:35	clojurebot	([] [] [] [])
04:35	noonian	(take 4 (cycle [[]]))
04:36	noonian	,(take 4 (cycle [[]]))
04:36	clojurebot	([] [] [] [])
04:37	mischov	quizdr: I see you, and raise you (identity '([] [] [] []))
04:38	bitemyapp	,#('([] [] [] []))
04:38	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval119$fn__120 sandbox$eval119$fn__120@1a72123>
04:38	bitemyapp	,(#('([] [] [] [])))
04:38	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
04:39	bitemyapp	right. fuck me.
04:39	quizdr	mischov i call your bet (eval (eval (quote (quote (identity '([] [] [] []))))))
04:40	bitemyapp	mischov: http://words.steveklabnik.com/a-30-minute-introduction-to-rust http://steveklabnik.github.io/nobody_knows_rust
04:40	mischov	quizdr: Ah, so you did have the two evals...
04:41	quizdr	i bet you thought i had three... i'm that good. i can bluff with the best of them.
04:41	TEttinger	,(take 4 (map vec (repeat nil)))
04:41	clojurebot	([] [] [] [])
04:42	mischov	bitemyapp: wtf format for a slideshow is that! :D
04:43	bitemyapp	mischov: I've seen hipsters using it lately, think it's based on that one dude's JS.
04:43	bitemyapp	I forget his name, he makes a bunch of impressive pretty JS widget thingies.
04:43	mischov	bitemyapp: oh- him!
04:44	bitemyapp	mischov: you know who I'm thinking of?
04:45	mischov	bitemyapp: absolutely not.
04:45	jonathanj	what's an efficient way to produce a new seq without the last item?
04:45	jonathanj	butlast?
04:46	bitemyapp	mischov: Hakim! http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/#/
04:46	bitemyapp	mischov: http://lab.hakim.se/
04:46	mischov	bitemyapp: vertical slides are ux silliness.
04:47	quizdr	jonathanj drop-last? ,(doc drop-last)
04:47	jonathanj	i'm reimplementing `comp`: http://cljbin.com/paste/52d65895e4b0120cbe8ee015
04:47	mischov	bitemyapp: at least in the same presentation with horizontal slides...
04:47	bitemyapp	mischov: I know that. I don't know why people do that stuff.
04:48	mischov	because it makes them smile.
04:48	bitemyapp	mischov: anyway, the presentation is secondary to the blog post, that tells you the "what's actually different about this?" bits. The Rust tutorial is pretty short too. http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/0.9/tutorial.html
04:48	Glenjamin	i think the idea is optional slides
04:48	bitemyapp	they're not optional.
04:48	Glenjamin	so you can go left->right, but drill down if you have time
04:48	Glenjamin	oh
04:49	Glenjamin	well, thats the intention of the feature afaik
04:49	mischov	bitemyapp: I'll check it out after sleep. :D Thanks.
04:49	bitemyapp	mischov: cheers.
04:49	mischov	Glenjamin: in the presentation in question his topics are horizontal and the parts of each topic are vertical
04:50	Glenjamin	i suppose in theory he could stop going down after a few, and move onto the next section
04:50	Glenjamin	although they're not structured that way, i see
04:51	Glenjamin	yeah, basically the whole deck is down from slide 1
04:51	noonian	whats the difference between butlast and drop-last?
04:52	fredyr	noonian: laziness
04:52	andyf	drop-last is lazy, butlast is not
04:53	noonian	thanks, and it looks like the only difference from drop is it makes a new seq instead of returning the same one
04:53	mischov	drop-last can also drop more than 1
04:59	TEttinger	,(defn comptroller [& funs] (fn [& args] (reduce #(apply %2 (if (seq? %1) %1 [%1])) args (reverse funs))))
04:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/comptroller
05:00	TEttinger	,((comptroller str +) 1 2 3)
05:00	clojurebot	"6"
05:00	piranha	somehow core.async works very occasionally for me. It's like magic, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not
05:01	piranha	:\
05:01	piranha	I don't even know how to describe that... quite frustrating
05:05	noncom	piranha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYAq-7sOzXQ
05:06	piranha	noncom: yes that's exactly it!
05:06	piranha	noncom: I do (put! chan :keyword) in few places and it works only for a first time, but then it worked all the time when I did it from dev tools console
05:06	piranha	but now it stopped catching messages from console... and still works once for messages from code
05:07	piranha	that's somehow really disturbing
05:07	piranha	I'm pretty sure it's my fault but it's not immediately obvious from the code what I did wrong %)
05:08	noncom	if you want someone to comment on that i think you should post a refheap. core.async is encouraged to use by this community so people will try to help i think
05:08	piranha	well here is my code: https://github.com/piranha/locations/blob/master/src/locations/core.cljs#L48-L51
05:08	piranha	it's quite simple
05:09	piranha	and I guess that calling qwe('search') at least should print :search to console...
05:09	piranha	and real put!s are in views.cljs
05:13	noncom	piranha: oh, sorry, me myself is not a big expert in core.async, especially in its cljs incarnation (although it must work the same way). maybe you could ask some time later today in this channel when someone who is very familiar with core.async can answer
05:14	piranha	noncom: sure, it's just I'm frustrated right now and there is nobody around in real life I could speak with, and I had to let this frustration out... :)
05:14	noncom	:)
05:14	piranha	anyway yes, I'll ask later for sure
05:14	noncom	it happens to me from time to time too
05:15	piranha	:)
05:15	fredyr	piranha: may i ask why you extend string to be clonable?
05:16	piranha	fredyr: so that I could use it as an Om's cursor
05:16	fredyr	hmm
05:16	piranha	Om by default extends map and vector (and maybe list)
05:16	fredyr	that might explain why i had problems yesterday then
05:16	piranha	but you can't supply a string to a component and then expect a component to update it since there is not metadata
05:16	piranha	so you extend it with -clone which returns boxed string
05:17	fredyr	but isn't that when you're having a string as the actual cursor?
05:17	piranha	haha that may be a problem :) the same thing with a number
05:17	piranha	well I have a string as a cursor, it just needs to be wrapped in a String object
05:17	piranha	(js/String. "actual string")
05:17	fredyr	i had a map as the cursor coming in to the component
05:18	fredyr	but wasnt able to destructure the cursor to get strings
05:18	fredyr	that i could use in the html
05:18	fredyr	https://gist.github.com/fredyr/8424220
05:18	piranha	hm that's strange
05:18	fredyr	to get it to work i had to do (om/value)
05:19	piranha	fredyr: no real idea why it's behaving so, I think you might want to wait for dnolen as well :)
05:19	fredyr	right
05:19	fredyr	:)
05:20	fredyr	i almost always miss the us folks
05:20	fredyr	being on cet time i mean
05:23	clgv	fredyr: you can catch them in the afternoon easily
05:24	fredyr	yeah
05:24	piranha	yeah just need some patience :) I'm in EET and still able to catch them
05:24	fredyr	hah
05:25	piranha	but it's true, time makes everything hard :)
05:26	fredyr	it more like the combination of time zones, work and family thats doing it
05:26	fredyr	:)
05:27	fredyr	btw i can recommend tim baldrigde's break down of the core.async internals if you haven't watched
05:28	fredyr	they were really cool imo
05:28	piranha	yeah it's in my queue
05:29	fredyr	is that a fifo or priority queue?
05:29	fredyr	(;
05:30	clgv	fredyr: you got a link to the video, since google doesnt return anything useful
05:30	fredyr	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3PZMIwXN_g
05:31	fredyr	there's a part II and one called deep walking macros in the same serie
05:31	fredyr	s
05:31	piranha	fredyr: ah, not this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enwIIGzhahw
05:31	piranha	my link seems to be an overview
05:31	piranha	ok, that's less interesting :)
05:31	fredyr	that one is good also
05:32	fredyr	but more as an introduction
05:33	fredyr	the go macro vids are more like macrology galore, state monads and headasplodes
05:38	sg2002	Hello. Can somebody help me with setting cider? I get this: error in process sentinel: Could not start nREPL server: "eval" íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ âíóòðåííåé èëè âíåøíåé
05:38	sg2002	êîìàíäîé, èñïîëíÿåìîé ïðîãðàììîé èëè ïàêåòíûì ôàéëîì.
05:38	sg2002
05:39	ior3k	sg2002: does "lein repl" work?
05:40	mrcheeks	sg2002: how did you install it? via package-install? Do you also have lein install?
05:40	mrcheeks	installed*
05:41	sg2002	I have lein installed. Lein works.
05:41	mrcheeks	what about the cider installation then?
05:41	sg2002	Installed via package install.
05:43	mrcheeks	Try to 'pastebin/refheap' your setup for cider
05:43	sg2002	I'm using windows by the way. It looks like some kind of message from shell, just in the wrong codepage.
05:43	mrcheeks	ah Windows...
05:44	sg2002	mrcheeks: Don't have any. Just basic thing from the readme.
05:44	testcloj`	{1 "abc", 2 "def" 3 "qq"}
05:44	testcloj`	{:a [1],:b [1 2], :c [2 3]}
05:44	testcloj`	how to get the following ?
05:44	testcloj`	{:a "abc",:b "abc,def", :c "def,qq"}
05:46	sg2002	Oh, was able to read the message... Hmm.
05:47	noncom	sg2002: your message says that eval is not an executable command
05:47	sg2002	noncom: Yep.
05:47	noncom	looks like you feed it to cmd instead of clojure repl
05:48	sg2002	Yeah, seems so. Why would that happen?
05:51	AeroNotix	What other shells are available for Clojure?
05:51	AeroNotix	(ala python=>ipython)
05:52	fredyr	AeroNotix: does light table count?
05:53	noncom	sg2002: well, idk what is your setup... what you try to start and how
05:53	AeroNotix	fredyr: no
05:53	sg2002	Hmm. Just reinstalling package helped. Guess my cider installation got broken somehow. Plus it kind of updated from nrepl, haven't used clojure in emacs in quite a while.
05:53	noncom	oh well..
05:54	sg2002	Thanks for the hlep anyway.
05:55	sm0ke	for a class generated using gen-class how do i change the state variable?
05:56	sm0ke	it seems to be a stupid final
05:56	sm0ke	and i cant use atom
05:56	sm0ke	can i ask the state variable of gen-class to be non final
05:58	sm0ke	anyone?
05:58	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
05:58	sm0ke	clojurebot: dont mess with me
05:58	clojurebot	excusez-moi
05:58	sm0ke	grrr
06:05	sm0ke	so i want a mutable map in clojure, how do i do it?..there i said it
06:08	AeroNotix	sm0ke: ref/atom?
06:09	ucb	sm0ke: if this is related to gen-class, I believe you can manage mutable stable there
06:09	sm0ke	AeroNotix: no i cant use atom, its not fucking serializable!!
06:09	AeroNotix	sm0ke: woah the hostility
06:09	sm0ke	god clojure makes it hard to mutate
06:09	sm0ke	AeroNotix: sorry
06:09	AeroNotix	sm0ke: that's kind of the point
06:09	fredyr	sm0ke: transient map doesn't do it?
06:09	AeroNotix	transients should do it
06:09	sm0ke	fredyr: yes exactly
06:10	sm0ke	fredyr: AeroNotix thanks i was looking into just that
06:10	sm0ke	so transient map with assoc! and dissoc! right?
06:12	fredyr	yes
06:12	sm0ke	i hope there was a better solution
06:12	AeroNotix	,(def mut-map (transient {}))
06:12	clojurebot	#'sandbox/mut-map
06:12	sm0ke	its like trading clojure goodness for serialization
06:12	AeroNotix	,(assoc! mut-map :k :v)
06:12	clojurebot	#<IllegalAccessError java.lang.IllegalAccessError: Transient used by non-owner thread>
06:12	AeroNotix	WHAT EVER
06:14	sm0ke	there should be a serializable stm solution
06:14	fredyr	user> ,(let [t (transient {})] (assoc! t :hello :world) (persistent! t))
06:15	fredyr	,(let [t (transient {})] (assoc! t :hello :world) (persistent! t))
06:15	clojurebot	{:hello :world}
06:18	sm0ke	just tell me transient doesnt imply what transient means in java
06:19	fredyr	it doesnt
06:19	sm0ke	phew!
06:20	clgv	sm0ke: it is an optimization to build up collections faster. often the pattern is (->> some-coll (reduce (fn ..) (transient [])) persistent!)
06:20	DerGuteMoritz	note that you still need to reassign the var even with transients
06:20	DerGuteMoritz	they do mutate in place but not reliably
06:20	clgv	using a transient in a variable is not idiomatic afaik
06:21	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: can't you use a box type of sorts?
06:21	DerGuteMoritz	clgv: yeah, I'd think so, too
06:21	DerGuteMoritz	its purpose is to be used in a short-lived local context
06:21	clgv	sm0ke: you definitely should go for ref or atom depending on whether you need transactions or not
06:23	pyrtsa	Often you don't want to use transient anyway, because many core functions such as `into` do use transients internally. Just use an atom or a ref and do multiple updates at once when possible.
06:23	sm0ke	wtf man! transientmap is not serializable!
06:23	sm0ke	wtf
06:24	sm0ke	fredyr: liar
06:24	pyrtsa	A transient map has many issues. For instance, you can't list its keys.
06:24	fredyr	:S
06:24	DerGuteMoritz	,(def foo (clojure.lang.Box. 1))
06:24	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
06:24	DerGuteMoritz	,(.-val foo)
06:24	clojurebot	1
06:24	pyrtsa	It's intended for a very limited use case.
06:24	DerGuteMoritz	,(set! (.-val foo) 2)
06:24	clojurebot	2
06:24	DerGuteMoritz	,(.-val foo)
06:24	clojurebot	2
06:24	fredyr	sm0ke: sorry didn't know if it was serializeable or not
06:24	fredyr	sm0ke: just gave an option for mutable maps
06:25	pyrtsa	sm0ke: What are you trying to do?
06:25	sm0ke	well
06:25	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: yo, no need to be hostile
06:25	fredyr	sm0ke: but if mutable map is what you want you might want to just use java.util.HashMap
06:25	sm0ke	i just want a mutable fucking variable for my gen class which i can serialize
06:25	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: did you see my clojure.lang.Box example above?=
06:25	sm0ke	fredyr: sorry
06:26	DerGuteMoritz	it's not serializable either AFAIK but it is trivial to make your own box type that is
06:26	sm0ke	i dont understand why a transient map isnt serializable
06:26	fredyr	,(java.util.HashMap. {:wow :such :anger :doge})
06:26	clojurebot	{:anger :doge, :wow :such}
06:27	sm0ke	,(instance? java.io.Serializable (transient {}))
06:27	clojurebot	false
06:28	sm0ke	,(instance? java.io.Serializable {})
06:28	clojurebot	true
06:28	sm0ke	,(instance? java.io.Serializable (clojure.lang.Box. 1))
06:28	clojurebot	false
06:28	sm0ke	hmm
06:28	sm0ke	what are the options
06:28	pyrtsa	sm0ke: Probably because no one thought it should be. Transients were built to be just quick ways to construct persistent data structures.
06:28	fredyr	,(instance? java.io.Serializable (java.util.HashMap. {:wow :such :anger :doge}))
06:28	clojurebot	true
06:28	sm0ke	pyrtsa: so what should i do for a mutable serializable data strucutre
06:29	pyrtsa	sm0ke: Try java.util.HashMap.
06:29	sm0ke	heh
06:29	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: just roll your own serializable version of https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Box.java
06:29	sm0ke	DerGuteMoritz: sounds like work!
06:29	pyrtsa	sm0ke: No, seriously. Your use case doesn't sound like idiomatic Clojure, so why try to use idiomatic Clojure for it?
06:29	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: well or use Java's stdlib
06:30	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: if java.util.HashMap is what you want, why not use it?
06:30	DerGuteMoritz	right, what pyrtsa says
06:30	DerGuteMoritz	serializing clojure data is done via EDN usually
06:30	sm0ke	yep, makes sense
06:30	sm0ke	DerGuteMoritz: there i no explicit serialization
06:31	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: hm?
06:32	sm0ke	DerGuteMoritz: the user of my api can create objects and send over network
06:32	sm0ke	oh wait
06:32	sm0ke	does java.io.Serializable iterface has methods for onSerialization? onDeserialization?
06:33	sm0ke	yeah
06:33	DerGuteMoritz	sm0ke: well the wire format is your choice, you could use EDN instead of Java serialization
06:33	sm0ke	onRead onWrite should do right
06:46	sobel	my repl (1.5.1) prints 'nil' after every println. is that normal?
06:46	sobel	it also prints the parameter string, but i get a 'nil' printed on a new line too
06:46	karls	sobel: println's return value is nil.
06:46	sobel	ah ok
06:47	sobel	i just didn't see it in any of the tutorial material i'm using so i wasn't sure if mine was subtly broken or what
06:47	sobel	but that makes perfect sense
06:48	sobel	so far i'm liking http://www.braveclojure.com/do-things/ but pointers to other new-to-clojure material are welcome.
06:49	sm0ke	ugh.. overwring serializable methods left me wondering how to re initialize the final variable!
06:49	sm0ke	i think the best option was what pyrtsa suggested
06:52	CookedGryphon	sm0ke: have you looked at nippy?
06:52	CookedGryphon	just joining the conversation now, but if you're talking about serializing stuff to send over the wire, it's a really nice option
06:53	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: yea but the problem is i cannot control serialization explicitly
06:54	CookedGryphon	what do you mean?
06:55	sm0ke	what if the class you want to be serializable is just a instance variable in some other class user of the api created?
06:55	sm0ke	which is being serialized by standard java api
06:55	CookedGryphon	it's compatible with normal java serializable
06:55	CookedGryphon	and it uses protocols so you can extend it to whatevery ou want
06:56	CookedGryphon	you can even pass in a single extra option to encrypt it
06:57	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: well yea i have been using it for a while, but i dont see how it solves the problem
06:57	sm0ke	may be i am not thinking otb
06:58	CookedGryphon	try explaining again, I don't get what your issue is
06:59	clgv	clojurebot allows defs?
06:59	clgv	,(defn f [x] (inc x))
06:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/f
06:59	clgv	wow
06:59	clgv	that's new
06:59	clgv	(f 0)
06:59	clgv	,(f 0)
06:59	clojurebot	1
06:59	AeroNotix	,(sandbox/f 10)
06:59	clojurebot	11
07:00	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: make a class using gen-class which has a mutable variable and is serializable
07:00	AeroNotix	,(prn (repeat 10))
07:00	clojurebot	(10 10 10 10 10 ...)\n
07:00	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: a map variable would be nice
07:01	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: atoms are welcome for sake of idiomatic clojure writing
07:01	AeroNotix	clever girl
07:03	CookedGryphon	2 options, extend java serializable, job done, or (extend-freeze MyType 1 [x data-output-stream] (.writeUTF data-output-stream (freeze (.getMyMapVariable x))) .....
07:03	CookedGryphon	and then extend-thaw the other way
07:03	CookedGryphon	write each of the things you want to save to the output stream, then read them off the input stream in the same order
07:05	clgv	sm0ke: I wouldn't serialize clojure datastructures via serialization. you'll serialize a lot of useless internal structure of the datastructures
07:06	AeroNotix	sm0ke: https://github.com/edn-format/edn ?
07:07	sm0ke	what if the class is being used by some java guy?
07:07	sm0ke	he doesnt know edn or nippy
07:07	AeroNotix	screw him ;)
07:07	AeroNotix	j/k
07:07	sm0ke	he want to do a.x=2
07:07	CookedGryphon	he can know edn
07:07	sm0ke	AeroNotix: childish
07:07	AeroNotix	sm0ke: twas a joke
07:07	CookedGryphon	or you provide a wrapper which accesses it through your clojure api
07:08	AeroNotix	a wrapper would be nice
07:08	sm0ke	ok guys i am going to use a HashMap unless someone can come up with a way to overrite onRead and onWrite
07:25	sm0ke	ok .. but i still think transient should extend serializable
07:26	sm0ke	do you guys think someone should open a ticket for it? or is there some insight on why its no like so
07:37	CookedGryphon	sm0ke: you aren't supposed to let transients escape your function, trying to do anything like assoc or conj on a transient will throw an exception
07:37	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: yea but there are assco! and dissoc!
07:37	CookedGryphon	to stop you accidentally leaking transients into a context requiring/expecting a persistent
07:38	CookedGryphon	yeah, but if you're not meant to let them out of your function, you most certainly aren't meant to keep them around long enough to serialise them
07:38	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: i dont see what anything of this has to do with it being serializable
07:38	CookedGryphon	you aren't meant to observe it outside of the function that makes it
07:38	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: i can do a (def a (transient {}))
07:39	sm0ke	observe it from anywhere now
07:39	CookedGryphon	yes, you can do all sorts of things you're not supposed to
07:39	CookedGryphon	doesn't mean you should, and definitely doesn't mean it was the way it was intended do be used
07:40	CookedGryphon	if you don't want your datastructure persistent and immutable, don't use a persistent immutable datastructure, it's inefficient if nothing else
07:41	sobel	having read up on lock-free data structures, i am MUCH happier with immutable data structures
07:41	sobel	lightbulb moment
07:42	sobel	it really took some theory reading to figure out the wisdom in it.
07:42	CookedGryphon	transient/persistent is meant to be used in very confined areas, where you can see everything that's happening to it and therefore easily reason about it - "If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?
07:42	CookedGryphon	If a pure function mutates some local data in order to produce an immutable return value, is that ok?"
07:42	CookedGryphon	(from http://clojure.org/transients)
07:44	augustl	sobel: just chiming in and seconding that you shouldn't use transient outside of function-local values
07:44	augustl	you should always take and return immutable values. If you have a function that takes a transient as an argument, kittens will die, and so on :)
07:44	sobel	TL/DR: Concurrency is hard
07:44	sobel	:)
07:44	augustl	transients are only about performance
07:45	locks	let's go shopping
07:45	locks	but we take to take turns
07:45	locks	or we can go to different stores at the same time
07:45	augustl	also, a transient isn't truly mutable. (do (def a (transient {})) (assoc! a :foo "123") (println (:a foo))) => nil
07:45	locks	and then meet somewhere
07:45	locks	unless someone is l--oh boy.
07:45	augustl	you still have to use the return value from assoc! and friends
07:45	sm0ke	well CookedGryphon if a tree would fell in the forest i should be able to take it home and burn the wood
07:45	sw1nn	anyone around who's playing with om?
07:45	sm0ke	lol
07:45	sobel	i would not be in a position to self-teach clojure if i hadn't tackled SQL already. i don't know how someone could transition from OO to FP without the same experience.
07:46	sw1nn	I've got a test project that renders some components, but I'm getting lots of 'mysterious' <span data-reactid=".r[4jfl6].[0].[0].[0].{cljs$lang$protocol_mask$partition0$}">167668511</span>
07:46	locks	sw1nn: not yet, but I bet dnolen knows a thing or too
07:47	dnolen	sw1nn: it seems like you may be accidentally providing a data structure as the key, instead of some simpler value like a string or number
07:47	CookedGryphon	sm0ke: no you shouldn't. Clojure's constraints are what give it value. The fact that you can't just do whatever the hell you like, means that other people reading your code have a much easier time of it, and so do you as your codebase grows beyond a trivial size
07:47	sw1nn	dnolen. thnks, that makes sense.
07:48	augustl	sobel: immutable values is the biggest takeway from Clojure into other environments imo :)
07:49	augustl	such benefits, wow
07:49	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: i am sorry but i still dont see what the hell anything of that has to do with serializability
07:49	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: just my opinion
07:49	augustl	oh I just realized I meant sm0ke not sobel :)
07:49	sobel	so tabcomplete
07:50	sm0ke	absolutely, immutable is good
07:50	edbond	sw1nn, try to apply dom/* function. like (apply dom/div nil (map .....))
07:50	augustl	actually braincomplete, saw both your names ;)
07:50	sobel	so early, much squinting
07:50	CookedGryphon	sm0ke: because if you are serializing and then instantly deserializing within the tight inner loop of a single function, you're doing something very very wrong and misunderstanding the fundamentals
07:50	sobel	sry, done dogeing
07:50	CookedGryphon	brb
07:51	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: ok
07:51	locks	sobel: much apology, such sincerity
07:51	augustl	very meme :)
07:52	sm0ke	i dont know man, the fact that no one else agrees with me must be beacuse i am wrong
07:52	augustl	sm0ke: agrees with you that passing around transients is OK?
07:52	edbond	dnolen, how to om/transact! without re-render?
07:52	dnolen	edbond: not currently possible, but what's the use case?
07:53	sm0ke	augustl: i said serializability, you CAN pass them around doesnt meant they SHOULD
07:53	sm0ke	augustl: i never made that statement
07:53	augustl	sm0ke: yeah I agree
07:54	sm0ke	augustl: serializability is nothing, given things you can already do with them
07:54	sm0ke	so i dont see the fkn point
07:55	edbond	dnolen, thanks. This is very specific, will try to find another way to block until render finish.
07:56	dnolen	edbond: re-renders are never immediate
07:57	edbond	dnolen, only on requestAnimationFrame, I know
07:57	fredyr_	dnolen: yesterday i ran into trouble when trying to destructure a cursor in om, https://gist.github.com/fredyr/8424220
07:58	fredyr_	dnolen: is there something obvously wrong in there, would you say?
07:59	edbond	fredyr_, did you try lein cljsbuild clean and compile again?
08:00	fredyr_	dnolen: it works fine if I do (om/value state) though
08:00	dnolen	fredyr_: did you extend-type string to ICloneable?
08:00	fredyr_	dnolen: no i haven't
08:01	fredyr_	dnolen: should i?
08:01	dnolen	fredyr_: hmm I don't know, in the middle of some other stuff. But that seems like a bug to me file a GitHub issue please
08:02	fredyr_	dnolen: ok sure
08:02	fredyr_	dnolen: is the gist info enough or would you like something more complete?
08:03	dnolen	fredyr_: gist is minimal enough, but please put the contents directly into the issue, thanks.
08:03	fredyr_	dnolen: ok will do
08:05	edbond	fredyr_, what om, cljs versions do you use? I pasted your code and see div > h2
08:05	fredyr_	edbond: 0.1.6
08:05	edbond	fredyr_, if you had previous versions may be worth to do clean, both lein deps and cljsbuild.
08:06	edbond	sometimes it helps for me
08:06	fredyr_	edbond: yeah that might be a reason
08:06	fredyr_	edbond: lein cljsbuild clean
08:06	edbond	and lein deps clean
08:07	fredyr_	edbond: ah that one i haven't done before
08:09	rurumate_	I have a map from strings to vectors of strings like this: {"a" ["foo" "bar"] "b" ["baz"]}. how to invert?
08:09	rurumate_	should become {"foo" "a" "bar" "a" "baz" "b"}
08:10	AimHere	I'd probably knock up something with reduce-kv for that kind of problem
08:11	fredyr_	edbond: no luck unfortunately with cleaning
08:12	edbond	fredyr_, hm, I can paste compiled js probably to compare
08:13	edbond	fredyr_, clojurescript 0.0-2138, lein-cljsbuild 1.0.2-SNAPSHOT
08:13	edbond	om 1.0.6
08:14	edbond	fredyr_, did you try om/examples, they works?
08:14	AimHere	,(reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (apply assoc m (interleave v (repeat k)))) {} {:a [:foo :bar] :b [:baz]})
08:14	clojurebot	{:baz :b, :bar :a, :foo :a}
08:15	lumafi	,(into {} (for [[k vv] {"a" ["foo" "bar"] "b" ["baz"]}, v vv] [v k]))
08:15	clojurebot	{"foo" "a", "bar" "a", "baz" "b"}
08:16	fredyr_	edbond: so i can get my code to work if i wrap the cursor with om/value before accessing author
08:17	fredyr_	edbond: and i do some build-all stuff and so on that works fine
08:21	testclo	how to destruct a map? for the following e.g. I want to get the key and value for each pair
08:21	testclo	(def a {1 2,3 4})
08:21	testclo	(map (fn[key val]) a )
08:23	AimHere	,(map identity {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
08:23	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:c 3] [:b 2])
08:23	AimHere	That sort of thing?
08:23	jcromartie	(seq {:x 1 :y 2})
08:23	jcromartie	err
08:23	AimHere	When you treat a map as a sequence, it turns into a sequence of [k v] pairs
08:23	jcromartie	,(seq {:x 1 :y 2})
08:23	clojurebot	([:y 2] [:x 1])
08:24	fredyr_	edbond: im on cljs 0.0-2127, that could perhaps be the reason
08:24	jcromartie	,(map type {:x 1 :y 2})
08:24	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
08:25	jcromartie	,(map count {:x 1 :y 2})
08:25	clojurebot	(2 2)
08:27	fredyr_	edbond: OHHHZOMG
08:28	edbond	fredyr_, did that helps?
08:29	fredyr_	edbond: it did!!
08:29	fredyr_	edbond: now it works fine, so it seems like there was something in the cljs version
08:29	dnolen	fredyr_: oh yeah, the README says 2138
08:29	dnolen	fredyr_: but perhaps I should make that more clear
08:36	fredyr_	dnolen: sorry to bother you with that
08:38	noncom	are there already some examples or tutorials on macro architecture of guis with core.async? not just one or two elements or a simple website, but full-scale uis?
08:39	noncom	i've been looking for examples on csp but did not find
08:49	fredyr_	edbond: thanks very much
08:49	edbond	fredyr_, you are welcome
08:50	quizdr	,(println "thanks everyone, see you tomorrow")
08:50	clojurebot	thanks everyone, see you tomorrow\n
09:11	sritchie	I'm going to brave it and ask a shell question here… do you guys know why this works with &&, but fails with \|\|?
09:12	sritchie	if [ -z $CIRCLE_CI ] && [ $CIRCLE_BRANCH != "develop" ]; then echo "WORKING"; fi
09:12	sritchie	-bash: [: !=: unary operator expected
09:12	sritchie	when I use \|\|
09:12	clojurebot	Huh?
09:13	hyPiRion	sritchie: I guess $CIRCLE_BRANCH results into nothing, and then you get the expression [ != "develop" ]
09:13	hyPiRion	so wrap it in ""s
09:13	sritchie	ah, gotcha
09:14	hyPiRion	same with $CIRCLE_CI I guess
09:14	sritchie	strangely that one works, even if I sub in some random var
09:14	sritchie	cool, makes sense
09:14	sritchie	much like when I learned clojure, digging into bash is changing the way I think about programming :)
09:15	demon386	In a good way?...
09:15	sritchie	haha, not yet
09:17	hyPiRion	sritchie: I feel that with every language with some new concept I haven't yet learned, which usually is a net gain
09:18	hyPiRion	Bash gave me the value of printing to stdout
09:18	hyPiRion	or uh, "value"
09:31	locks	dnolen: are you planning on having a section on your cljs tutorial on how to tweak LT itself?
09:38	rurumate_	AimHere: thanks mate, sorry for late reply
09:39	rurumate_	it seems to work, amazing stuff
09:51	instilled	hi. i'm trying to remove maps from a list where a-key matches an item in a list, i.e something like this: (map #(if ((:a-key %1) in list) nil %1) some-list-of-maps). Is there an idiomatic clojure way of doing this?
09:53	hyPiRion	instilled: so you have one list with maps, one key, and one list with items?
09:57	instilled	hyPiRion: I have a 'list of maps' and a 'list of values' and would like to remove all maps the 'list of maps' where a certain key, let's say :x, matches a value in the 'list of values'
09:58	hyPiRion	instilled: okay, gotcha
09:58	instilled	hyPiRion: i have it working but it feels like there is a more clojure way of doing the same thing….
09:58	hyPiRion	instilled: so the "safest" way of doing it would be this: (let [list-set (set item-list)] (remove #(some->> (find % my-key) second (contains? list-set)) list-of-maps))
09:59	instilled	ihyPiRion: i use filter and a set as a predicate...
09:59	hyPiRion	this won't remove the map if the key is not existant, and key can be nil
10:00	hyPiRion	although, ugh, this won't work if the value is nil.
10:02	hyPiRion	(let [list-set (set item-list)] (remove #(some-> (find % my-key) (as-> tuple (contains? list-set (second tuple)))) list-of-maps)) should also preserve nil values, if that's what you're looking for
10:02	instilled	hyPiRion: ok. right. (some #{"val"} nil) does return nil. and it shouldn't in my case. I'll get my head around you solution …
10:03	AeroNotix	I'm using SSL+jetty, when I try to `lein run' it gives me a java.net.SocketException: Permission denied. Trying to run on SSL.
10:03	instilled	hyPiRion: cheers a lot!
10:03	hyPiRion	instilled: I would guess my first solution is essentially the same as yours, just a bit more convoluted. I attempted to handle nil keys and nil values with it, but failed :p
10:04	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: I would guess you need permission to listen to those ports. Ports below a specific range usually must.
10:05	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: sure, but it's running on 8080
10:06	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: and I need to have the clojure jar running SSL due to some legal restrictions, so I can't just have nginx proxy to it or w/e
10:07	hyPiRion	then I'm not sure. Are you sure the httpS port is running on 8080 and not the http one? https is by default 443 and won't change if just http changs.
10:08	hyPiRion	(But yeah, it's defineatedly configurable.)
10:08	AeroNotix	:ssl-port 8080
10:08	AeroNotix	in the jetty optoins
10:08	hyPiRion	okay, then I have no idea.
10:09	AeroNotix	:(
10:09	hyPiRion	You probably need a certificate for it, but I don't think it should give a socket exception
10:09	AeroNotix	It works when I run it as root
10:10	pcn	AeroNotix: then it is trying to bind to a low port
10:10	AeroNotix	pcn: It's running on 8080
10:10	AeroNotix	which is not a privelidged port
10:10	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: have you changed :port to something else?
10:11	pcn	What hyPiRion said
10:11	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: :port is blank
10:11	AeroNotix	I didn't set it
10:11	pcn	Set it to something else and try
10:11	AeroNotix	second
10:11	hyPiRion	What pcn said
10:11	hyPiRion	:p
10:11	AeroNotix	that works :)
10:11	AeroNotix	it probably has a default
10:11	pcn	Because it's possible that by making it empty, you're telling jetty to bind to port 80
10:12	hyPiRion	or in this case, attempt to bind to port 80
10:12	hyPiRion	then fail horribly
10:12	AeroNotix	yeah, the default for :port must be 80
10:12	AeroNotix	http://clojuredocs.org/ring/ring.adapter.jetty/run-jetty
10:13	AeroNotix	it mentions other defaults... but not :port
10:13	hyPiRion	yeah, that should definitely be fixed
10:13	AeroNotix	indeed
10:16	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: ah, it's just not updated
10:17	hyPiRion	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-jetty-adapter/src/ring/adapter/jetty.clj#L62-L77 <- actual docstring
10:18	AeroNotix	sweet!
10:37	gfredericks	is using long names for bit operations some sort of lisp tradition?
10:39	gfredericks	,'(\|\| && << >> <<< >>>)
10:39	clojurebot	(\|\| && << >> <<< ...)
10:39	gfredericks	I guess the one we can't get is ^
10:39	hyPiRion	gfredericks: At least we don't have double-float-negative-epsilon and friends
10:39	CookedGryphon	it's not really a language designed for a lot of bit-twiddling
10:39	CookedGryphon	you only give short names to things you use every day, otherwise you give it a descriptive name
10:40	hyPiRion	or least-negative-normalized-double-float
10:45	gfredericks	FP units should be separate chips like GPUs
10:45	arrdem	gfredericks: nooooooo
10:45	arrdem	gfredericks: dude. that would suck ass from a performance standpoint.
10:45	gfredericks	do your whole computation on that chip them
10:45	gfredericks	then*
10:46	arrdem	gfredericks: IEEE floating point in software? why....
10:46	gfredericks	not in software
10:46	gfredericks	just not all wrapped up in the main CPU
10:47	gfredericks	I _would_ claim that the FP unit isn't used much on most computers, but comically that's probably not true thanks to people building websites
10:47	gfredericks	there's a bimodal use case for FP
10:47	wink	and I thought you proposed a functional programming unit for a second...
10:48	wink	.oO( i.e. LISP machine )
10:48	arrdem	wink: that's even sillier than saying we should throw away the floating point unit...
10:49	gfredericks	"Floating point numbers are useful for certain kinds of scientific computing and also for building a blog."
10:49	progo	:)
10:49	arrdem	the issue with having offchip components is that the IO times are so bad that unless you have an exceedingly large workload the IO time dominates
10:50	gfredericks	arrdem: I'm focusing on the world I work in where the FP unit is totally unused and so there are no consequences
10:50	hyPiRion	hah
10:50	gfredericks	other worlds are obviously irrelevant
10:50	wink	arrdem: pff :P
10:50	arrdem	gfredericks: and one of my involvements here at school is high performance scientific computing, so I can tell you that's silly :D
10:51	gfredericks	scientists are a bunch of integer-haters
10:51	gfredericks	down with hardware!
10:52	nDuff	Heh.
10:52	gfredericks	and finally blogs became possible
10:52	arrdem	gfredericks: lolz
10:53	arrdem	nDuff: i48g
10:53	arrdem	*i486
10:54	gfredericks	386 was ints only?
10:54	arrdem	gfredericks: yeah the original 386 architecture didn't have all the floating point augmentations
10:55	chronno	gfredericks: yout had to use a math coprocessor if you wanted FP
10:55	john2x	what's the standard filetype for storing app settings/metadata? e.g. yaml for Ruby/Python projects, json for js projects
10:55	chronno	gfredericks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprocessor#Intel_coprocessors
10:55	john2x	or is it project.clj? (can I reference keys in project.clj in a project?)
10:56	arrdem	$google clojure edn
10:56	lazybot	[edn-format/edn · GitHub] https://github.com/edn-format/edn
10:56	arrdem	$google tools reader edn
10:56	lazybot	[clojure/tools.reader · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader
10:56	arrdem	john2x: ^
10:57	arrdem	john2x: project.clj is specific to the leiningen build system... your app won't ever be aware of what's in there.
10:57	gfredericks	bring back the coprocessor!
10:57	chronno	gfredericks: lol
10:57	john2x	arrdem: thanks. yeah, that's what I thought.
10:57	CookedGryphon	john2x: or if you want a little extra help https://github.com/TouchType/conf-er
10:57	arrdem	gfredericks: if you want to _add_ some coprocessors I'm okay with that... using such additions as an excuse to remove the FPU is silly.
10:57	arrdem	that said webdev is silly
10:59	pcn	arrdem gfredericks 386 sx was no fp, dx had both right?
10:59	arrdem	huh. looks like there was an FPU standard prior to the i486.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80387#80387
10:59	john2x	CookedGryphon: even better. thanks!
11:07	CookedGryphon	john2x: no problem. Let me know if you have any problems or feature requests
11:08	john2x	CookedGryphon: will do, thanks.
11:12	AeroNotix	are multimethods the best way to dispatch on type when working with built in types and java classes?
11:12	AeroNotix	I want to dispatch a function on a map and a java class.
11:12	`cbp	if it's just type you can use protocols
11:12	AeroNotix	boom
11:13	`cbp	headshot?
11:14	AeroNotix	HEADSHOT
11:23	katox	arrdem: it helped, I had one of those ;)
11:31	CookedGryphon	how do i "copy" a channel in core.async
11:32	CookedGryphon	I have something pulling from it, and I want something else to be able to observe the same data without affecting the first thing
11:32	rkneufeld	CookedGryphon: mult, no?
11:33	CookedGryphon	rkneufeld: do i need to do that to the top level one and change my existing loop to tap from that mult?
11:34	CookedGryphon	or does mult not consume the channel you apply mult to?
11:34	rkneufeld	I'm not sure, I've never used it–just aware of it.
11:34	rkneufeld	I'd have to read http://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/mult to say better.
11:35	CookedGryphon	yeah, I'm reading that, still not clear though
11:35	stuartsierra	I don't think you can 'copy' a channel without consuming it.
11:36	CookedGryphon	stuartsierra: that was my thinking, okay, so I'll mult the incoming channel and change the loop already consuming it to consume a tap instead and it's all good
11:36	CookedGryphon	thanks
11:36	stuartsierra	yes
11:36	stuartsierra	you're welcome
11:36	arrdem	hum... anyone care to comment on ztellman's gloss?
11:36	mdrogalis	I was under the impression that that was what map was for.
11:36	mdrogalis	Or this isn't a one-time-only copy?
11:37	CookedGryphon	i mean I want to observe the data that's going through a channel to something else without affecting the existing observer
11:37	mdrogalis	CookedGryphon: Ah, I understand.
11:42	jjttjj	are there any decent guidelines for when to switch from positional parameters to a single map as a parameter? Or when is it better to use destructuring to just do named args like (foo :animal "cat"), etc
11:42	jjttjj	the clojure-style-guide says to avoid using more than 4 positional params but what if these are db "add" functions and half of your models have only a few fields and the rest have a lot more than 4
11:43	andyf	Is there a way to set Leiningen :source-paths from the command line?
11:43	jjttjj	(I get hung up on a lot of stupid things when I should just be building stuff, just curious what other peoples' opinions are on this)
11:44	stcredzero	jjttjj: I think that's normal. If you're not doing that as a programmer, you're probably not trying.
11:45	jjttjj	stcredzero: good to know :)
11:46	gfredericks	andyf: like for a single run of `lein something`?
11:47	andyf	gfredericks: yes. If editing ~/.lein/profiles.clj is the next best thing, I can script that, instead.
11:49	gfredericks	andyf: it would surprise me if you could; integrating environ w/ leiningen sounds like an interesting idea
11:50	locks	jjttjj: I don't have an answer, but I'll validate your concerns in that I think about this sort of thing often
11:50	clgv	CookedGryphon: you can check whether you can copy the buffer of a channel - if so you can plug them together manually to get hold of the buffer
11:51	stcredzero	locks: In other words, you're telling him he should be worried, but not to be worried about the fact he is worried.
11:53	CookedGryphon	clgv: explain? Do you mean poking about in the internals? or am i misunderstanding you
11:53	stuartsierra	jjttjj: It really comes down to developer experience. If you're having trouble remembering the argument order, or creating bugs by getting it wrong, it's probably time to switch to maps or keyword args.
11:53	gfredericks	has the clojurewest.org site been down for 24 hrs now?
11:53	stuartsierra	gfredericks: works for me
11:54	jjttjj	stuartsierra, locks: thanks for the input
11:55	clgv	CookedGryphon: you can create a buffer manually and then create a channel with it. if you keep the buffer around and buffers can be copied, you can copy the content of the channel without consuming it
11:56	clgv	CookedGryphon: oh humm well, that assumes that the buffer is some mutable thingy which might not be true in case it is a persistent data structure
11:56	CookedGryphon	I think for this particular use case mult/tap is what I want, as it makes it apparent what's happening, but that sounds like a neat trick I might play with later (I want to make something to do riemann monitoring of throughput/speed etc)
11:58	clgv	ok buffers are implemented via linkedlist in a mutable fashion^^
11:59	gfredericks	huh maybe my office internet connection provides every site except clojurewest.org
11:59	gfredericks	presumably it is NSFW
12:01	gfredericks	oh it only works with www
12:01	gfredericks	I doughnot understand the internets
12:01	stuartsierra	gfredericks: Odd, it redirects to www. automatically for me.
12:02	gfredericks	yes I can't get any of my coworkers to reproduce this
12:03	gfredericks	so it's local to my machine, but happens both in the linux virtualbox vm _and_ in OSX
12:03	gfredericks	`curl clojurewest.org` hangs while www succeeds
12:03	gfredericks	I give up computers
12:03	stuartsierra	Try clearing your DNS cache (I don't remember how to do that)
12:04	deadghost	computers are overrated anyways
12:11	technomancy	andyf: the update-in task is basically for that
12:12	gfredericks	technomancy: WAT is that
12:13	lsdafjklsd	Anyone know how to hook a browser repl up to a clojurescript project? I've got the script tag in my <head></head> section and can see it connected, but not sure how to send commands to the browser from my cljs file
12:13	lsdafjklsd	in a LightTable context
12:13	lsdafjklsd	forgot to mention that, trying to get lighttable working
12:13	andyf	technomancy: cool. Looks like something like 'lein update-in :source-paths concat :test-paths ...' should append test paths to source paths for that command?
12:14	andyf	I'm just looking for something that will let me do 'lein check' on all of the source and test files, without having to edit project.clj if possible, since I want to do it on about 60 projects.
12:14	technomancy	andyf: I don't think it will look up keywords in the project map like that
12:15	technomancy	you need to provide whatever you want to concat as an arg
12:15	technomancy	gfredericks: it's a way to sate my endless desire for higher-order tasks is all
12:15	andyf	technomancy: OK. I think I can get it down to a few cases, perhaps. Thanks for the tip.
12:15	gfredericks	technomancy: am I crazy or does this make it difficult to override something?
12:15	gfredericks	i.e., there is no assoc-in
12:15	jjl`_	does anyone know if anyone has tried to update ritz-nrepl's emacs bindings to work with cider?
12:16	technomancy	gfredericks: there's a special-case for the base map
12:16	rurumate_	,(type '2)
12:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
12:16	rurumate_	why is '2 not a symbol?
12:16	gfredericks	technomancy: yeah I just tried `lein update-in '' assoc :foo "bar" ...` and that worked
12:17	gfredericks	rurumate_: ' doesn't create symbols, it just suppresses evaluation
12:17	technomancy	note you have to double-quote strings due to shells being shells
12:17	gfredericks	,(map type ['true 'nil 'false ':foo])
12:17	clojurebot	(java.lang.Boolean nil java.lang.Boolean clojure.lang.Keyword)
12:17	technomancy	it's easy to get a symbol when you meant to pass in a string
12:17	gfredericks	clojurebot: shells \|are\| shells
12:17	clojurebot	c'est bon!
12:21	gfredericks	technomancy: how to update the base map should prollably be in the docstring eh? I'll go fiddle that
12:22	technomancy	gfredericks: I think it is?
12:22	technomancy	is says use a colon instead of an empty string, but it still works
12:22	gfredericks	technomancy: clearly I do not read anything
12:23	technomancy	how can you be expected to, with today's active lifestyles
12:35	justin_smith	man, Polvo is a nostalgia trip
12:36	matt444	Is there a version of partial that executes a function with no arguments?
12:36	CookedGryphon	matt444: uh... the function itself?
12:36	justin_smith	when I was a little kid looking for harsh noise tapes at the weirdo record store, they would always be playing the latest Polvo / Trumans Water / Sonic Youth / whatever on the sound system
12:36	technomancy	matt444: like you would with currying? not to my knowledge
12:36	justin_smith	because that was the "cool weird music" at the time
12:36	pyrtsa	,((partial inc) 1)
12:36	clojurebot	2
12:36	matt444	technomancy: arg, ok thanks
12:37	technomancy	matt444: partial doesn't know anything about the underlying function's arity afaik
12:37	pyrtsa	,((partial +))
12:37	clojurebot	0
12:37	matt444	the docs suggest they expect at least an arity of 1
12:38	Bronsa	I really wish IFn had a .arglists
12:38	technomancy	Bronsa: I'd settle for metadata
12:38	technomancy	actually I'd prefer it, but whatever
12:38	pyrtsa	matt444: You're right, the docstring of partial is inexact.
12:38	Bronsa	technomancy: not reilable
12:39	technomancy	it'd be reliable if all the HOFs knew about it
12:39	technomancy	not something you can necessarily retrofit though
12:40	andyf	Bronsa: So I'm liking Sean Corfield's suggestion of a linter that warns about vars with :arglists that do not match the arities of the fn that is its value. Seem like a reasonable idea to you, too?
12:40	matt444	(defn solo [fun] (fn [& args] (fun)))
12:40	Bronsa	technomancy: we already have this problem in eastwood/tools.analyzer where some functions (even in clojure.core) alter their :arglists for documentation purposes
12:40	andyf	Bronsa: But the clojure.core versions only do it for macros, I think, which does not affect the analyzer?
12:40	technomancy	oooh sketchy
12:41	andyf	Bronsa: or at least not the wrong arity warning?
12:41	technomancy	Leiningen has something like a :help-arglists so you can do that without screwing with the actual value but still provide helpful hinting
12:41	Bronsa	andyf: yeah right, but they set the bad example
12:42	Bronsa	andyf: btw warning about not-matching :arglists sounds reasonable
12:42	andyf	We could steer people with the warnings to use a different keyword like :help-arglists for Clojure, too.
12:42	Bronsa	I guess the problem is that clojure.core/doc uses :arglists
12:42	andyf	Especially if Leiningen had a modified version of doc that checked for :help-arglists before :arglists :-)
12:42	technomancy	maybe :human-arglists
12:43	technomancy	andyf: it's just the help task
12:43	matt444	#() is what I need
12:43	matt444	except that it can't be nested
12:43	andyf	technomancy: Sure. I mean that there is apropos-better in reply, I think, and it could rebind doc, too.
12:46	ior3k	not sure if on-topic, but anyone read: http://prog21.dadgum.com/189.html ? Specifically, would anyone be able to shed some light on what is meant by "If I were writing such a simulation in a functional style, then the fixes listed above would be there from the start. It's a more natural way to work when there aren't mutable data structures."?
12:48	zerowidth	ior3k: he's referring to an earlier statement, re: "The fix is to never pollute the simulation by adding new objects mid-frame. "
12:48	zerowidth	basically, not mutating state until you've calculated everything you need to calculate
12:48	koalallama	any tips on how to avoid Java OOM with thise code: https://gist.github.com/ctrlrsf/12ea523e63539f166375
12:49	zerowidth	if you're doing the simulation with FP, you'd be unable (or it'd be more obviously a problem) to do that
12:49	ior3k	zerowidth: right, but given my very limited understanding about functional programming, I'd probably do exactly the same... or maybe I'm misunderstanding. If I updated an atom, wouldn't the change be immediately visible?
12:49	zerowidth	well, i can tell you what i'm doing for a very simple physics thing
12:50	zerowidth	which i think falls under the purview of a functional simulation ...
12:51	zerowidth	i have a single atom for the entire state, and instead of updating each piece of it (and replacing the atom), i do it all at once: (swap! state update-physics time-delta) where update-physics does something like (assoc state :positions (updated-positions (:positions state)))
12:52	zerowidth	and if that's not idiomatic, i'm all ears for code critique
12:52	zerowidth	ior3k: so i think that's what he means.
12:52	S11001001	koalallama: allnums and zerocounts can't be global defs
12:53	S11001001	koalallama: make them functions instead and it's a different story
12:53	ior3k	zerowidth: don't know if you read Brian Marick's book (https://leanpub.com/fp-oo) but he mentions a style that he calls "data-flow style" which seems to be the style you mentioned
12:53	S11001001	koalallama: well, zerocounts anyway. Forget whether it matters for allnums.
12:54	koalallama	can you elaborate why/how that would affect its memory footprint?
12:54	koalallama	it runs for about 60mins on my machine and then dies. I presume because the map keeps growing as range generates higher numbers
12:54	S11001001	koalallama: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2214258/holding-onto-the-head-of-a-sequence
12:54	michaniskin	are ring middleware functions a kind of monad? if so, what is the name of this monad?
12:54	coaxmeta1	hey does anyone do clojure in vim with slimv? is that viable?
12:55	koalallama	ok, thanks
12:55	technomancy	coaxmeta1: I think everyone has migrated over to fireplace
12:55	S11001001	michaniskin: what's the type of a ring middleware function?
12:56	coaxmeta1	technomancy: oh I didn't even know about that. THanks. tpope makes a lot of good vim plugins
12:56	michaniskin	S11001001: (fn [continue] (fn [arg] ...))
12:56	technomancy	FSVO everyone
12:56	michaniskin	S11001001: the inner fn is expected to call the continuation and return the result
12:58	S11001001	so what is that (a -> z) -> b -> z? Yeah I think there's a monad there over the type of values passed to `continue', or `a'.
12:59	michaniskin	S11001001: to be more precise, there is a Handler type which is a function (Map -> Map)
13:00	michaniskin	S11001001: then there is the wrapper, which is what i'm interested in, which is (Handler -> Map), i think
13:01	S11001001	michaniskin: if you don't have a type variable you don't have a monad. That doesn't mean the interpreter isn't permitted to constrain it in some way, because a method of interpretation isn't required to form a monad. If you let the argument to continue vary freely you have a monad.
13:02	S11001001	s,vary,varying,
13:02	S11001001	er, no I was right the first time, syntactically
13:04	knyon	Is there a particular idiom for reading an EDN from the classpath?
13:04	knyon	seems I see a lot of the (-> "some.edn" clojure.java.io/resource clojure.java.io/reader java.io.PushbackReader. clojure.edn/read) pattern
13:04	knyon	seems verbose
13:04	justin_smith	knyon: (read (io/reader (io/resource "classpath/relative/file.edn")))
13:04	technomancy	you can slurp from a resource if it's small
13:05	justin_smith	technomancy: but then you need to read-string, and you could just read
13:05	michaniskin	S11001001: thanks
13:05	justin_smith	knyon: oh yeah, I forgot the PushbackReader step, my bad
13:06	knyon	justin_smith: does clojure.core/read work as clojure.edn/read?
13:06	justin_smith	knyon: yeah, it is a bit odd that there isn't a shorthand for that (read-resource modeled on read-string perhaps?)
13:06	justin_smith	knyon: yeah, but clojure.edn/read is actually better
13:06	justin_smith	usually
13:06	technomancy	knyon: depends where the data is coming from
13:07	technomancy	use edn if it's unsafe, use read if it's a configgy thing
13:07	knyon	Oh, that's interesting
13:07	andyf	knyon: Read this before using clojure.core/read. There are valid use cases, but be wary
13:07	andyf	knyon: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read
13:07	knyon	andyf: justin_smith: much appreciated. That about covers my question
13:08	justin_smith	technomancy: well, how often would a classpath resource be unsafe? usually it is something you bundled and deployed
13:08	technomancy	heh, true
13:08	technomancy	if a user can write to your classpath you've already lost
13:09	knyon	maybe for clear semantics, it's better to go with clojure.edn
13:09	knyon	even if it's safe
13:09	technomancy	it's less flexible
13:10	technomancy	using the reader lets them have an escape hatch if they need to calculate something in the config file due to you not having thought of a certain case or something
13:11	knyon	Fair enough, but that should be part of the semantic decision. clojure.edn/read means 'hey, I expect an edn and I expect you not to evaluate anything in it". core/read otherwise
13:11	S11001001	michaniskin: http://lpaste.net/98542
13:12	technomancy	I'm a big fan of "declarative with escape hatches" for config
13:13	technomancy	bit if it's statistical data or something then yeah, it's overkill
13:13	S11001001	michaniskin: (because fmap is free an RMF interpreter that takes the In -> Out request handler and an RMF In is not necessary)
13:14	michaniskin	S11001001: that's a little over my head at the moment. i think i need to research more before i can ask the question i really want to ask :)
13:18	rjknight	i don't suppose there are any instaparse gurus around?
13:19	rjknight	i'm probably doing something extremely stupid but can't figure out exactly what it is
13:19	hiredman	I am not a guru, but I have used it and think it is great
13:19	CookedGryphon	also not a guru but have used it, put your problem in a gist and we'll see?
13:20	rjknight	will do
13:21	knyon	Is there some handy std lib function which takes a namespace and provides a path? Eg, "." and "-" to "/" and "_". Not hard rolling my own, but if it's available
13:21	matt444	Can someone give me a sanity check? Compiler is complaining about recur argument count mismatch: https://www.refheap.com/24019
13:22	CookedGryphon	matt444: what's that anonymous function doing there?
13:22	CookedGryphon	matt444: you're trying to recur into an anonymous function with one argument
13:22	CookedGryphon	giving it three arguments
13:22	Bronsa	matt444: you cannot use recur like that
13:22	matt444	i'm trying to recur back up to crawl-items
13:22	hiredman	#() is a new function, and a new recur point
13:22	koalallama	S11001001: if you're still around, can you check https://gist.github.com/ctrlrsf/12ea523e63539f166375
13:22	matt444	gotcha
13:23	matt444	so how do i do the thing i'm trying to do?
13:23	Bronsa	s/recur/crawl-items
13:23	koalallama	S11001001: I read the SO article, and I suspect reduce is holding onto the head of zerocounts. Not sure how to avoid that though.
13:23	matt444	ah, ok
13:23	matt444	thanks everyone
13:24	CookedGryphon	koalallama: you're keeping a reference to the whole list generated by map in zerocounts, and it can't throw it away because you're referencing it later on to print out the last item, so it holds on to the whole list
13:25	koalallama	CookedGryphon: right, but what would be the stragety to avoid this?
13:25	koalallama	CookedGryphon: a doseq and walk the map?
13:25	koalallama	s/map/sequence/g
13:25	rjknight	hiredman, CookedGryphon: https://gist.github.com/robknight/8441515
13:26	CookedGryphon	koalallama: well do you need to print the last item of zerocounts for a start?
13:26	koalallama	yup..
13:26	rjknight	what i'm expecting is that each of those numbers parse as a Word, and the spaces as Whitespace
13:27	rjknight	it works with 7 numbers, but bombs out with 8 or more
13:28	hiredman	bombs out how?
13:28	rjknight	out of memory
13:28	hiredman	ah, too many possible valid parses I guess
13:29	hiredman	possibly due to all the use of *
13:29	CookedGryphon	hiredman: you are saying any number of whitespace characters is whitespace, and any number of characters is a word, and then any number of any number of those is a contentLine
13:29	CookedGryphon	try taking out the + from ContentLine
13:29	rjknight	ok
13:30	CookedGryphon	or the * from whitespace?
13:30	rjknight	i'm porting this over from peg.js, where something pretty similar worked
13:30	hiredman	* is typically zero or more, + is 1 or more
13:32	rjknight	ok, that worked, at least for the out-of-memory errors :)
13:33	CookedGryphon	koalallama: you would be better off just working out that last item separately, you could even get rid of the map entirely and just use reduce with an accumulator
13:34	hiredman	I almost never use ()*, I tend to prefer recursive rules, but that seems like just a matter of taste
13:34	CookedGryphon	koalallama: but similarly you would get best performance if you make sure you don't keep a reference to allnums so it can be disposed of
13:37	S11001001	koalallama: do it backwards starting with a backwards range, then (last zerocounts) becomes (first zerocounts)
13:38	S11001001	koalallama: and moving that up to before the reduce call because you don't need to hold onto zerocounts past the reduce call.
13:39	koalallama	CookedGryphon: thanks for your input. I've changed code to a doseq and memory is steady now. https://gist.github.com/ctrlrsf/12ea523e63539f166375
13:40	CookedGryphon	koalallama: that's not good, sorry
13:40	CookedGryphon	koalallama: you shouldn't be using doseq for this, doseq is for side effecting functions only, and you shouldn't be using def inside a call like that
13:40	CookedGryphon	my memory steady version looks like this: (reduce (fn [acc x] (+ acc (count (filter #(= \0 %) (str x))))) (range (inc maxnum)))
13:40	koalallama	don't be sorry :)
13:41	koalallama	makes sense
13:41	CookedGryphon	koalallama: perhaps a little premature, but you could make this really fly with reducers :P
13:42	koalallama	yeah, a bit :)
13:42	zerowidth	CookedGryphon: would love to see that
13:43	przemek_	hi,
13:43	rasmusto	przemek_: ,:hi
13:43	przemek_	I'm trying to migrate from intelij to emacs and there is one issue I have been trying to solve but failed
13:43	przemek_	I can't make it reformat code like idea does
13:44	przemek_	what can be done is "indenting"
13:44	przemek_	which doesn't format stuff like this: "(for [a (range 1 100) ) ]
13:44	CookedGryphon	zerowidth: I had a little look, but apparently reducible range hasn't made it into reducers yet which makes it trickier :(
13:45	przemek_	the thing is there are white spaces after ( or before ]
13:45	zerowidth	CookedGryphon: without knowing how reducers work, could you make a lazy-seq by hand or something that would work the same?
13:45	TimMc	przemek_: Reindenting only handles leading whitespace.
13:45	przemek_	idea can remove trailing and adjacent whitespaces + indent linens
13:45	przemek_	I am sure it is doable in emacs
13:46	technomancy	M-x delete-trailing-whitespace
13:46	przemek_	but I suppose it has to do with language code style
13:46	technomancy	nothing for stuff inside the parens though; that's just weird
13:46	przemek_	I know
13:46	przemek_	have tried that
13:46	CookedGryphon	zerowidth: reducers avoid lazy seq overhead, they use random access vectors and build up a "recipe" for making and combining the values
13:46	CookedGryphon	so you don't have to step through one at a time
13:46	zerowidth	oh, neat
13:46	technomancy	problem with deleting trailing whitespaces is that it zaps commas too
13:47	CookedGryphon	so the reduce can be using all your cores to do different chunks of the range at a time then combine them
13:47	przemek_	so what I can do is to use paredit mode and do my best not to introduce whitespaces inside S-exps?
13:47	przemek_	kinda sad
13:47	przemek_	:)
13:47	zerowidth	CookedGryphon: is it easy to convert a map on a fixed sequence to a reducer? how does that compare with pmap?
13:48	technomancy	well you already have to be careful not to introduce whitespace inside the middle of an identifier
13:48	CookedGryphon	zerowidth: trouble is, just that range as a vector uses up a lot of memory, so you need a reducers friendly one which doesn't actually generate a vector in memory but just gives you back the right range when you ask it for chunks
13:49	hyPiRion	przemek_: you could probably add a hook which does that, but I'm not sure it would be that valuable
13:49	CookedGryphon	zerowidth: pretty easy if it's already in a vector, and it makes better use of the processor than pmap which just blindly splits the work and still has all the lazy seq overhead
13:49	przemek_	well ...
13:49	hyPiRion	You generally manage to avoid those whitespaces anyway
13:49	zerowidth	CookedGryphon: so a reducer-aware range would have to be able to produce parts of the range simultaneously?
13:49	hyPiRion	At least with some clojure practise
13:49	CookedGryphon	zerowidth: exactly
13:49	przemek_	idea's plugin's code must have it
13:49	koalallama	CookedGryphon: thanks again. last paste: https://gist.github.com/ctrlrsf/12ea523e63539f166375
13:49	przemek_	so I can imagine cider gets the buffer
13:50	przemek_	and processes with that code
13:50	zerowidth	i imagine pmap for this thing i'm looking at is a premature optimization... and all the more so since i'm doing it in cljs first and only thinking about pushing it server-side later >_<
13:50	hiredman	someone had a patch for reducer's friendly range
13:50	przemek_	no one has needed this so far?
13:50	koalallama	CookedGryphon: my friend trolled me into working on this when he posted his version in awk
13:50	hiredman	pmap is terrible
13:50	CookedGryphon	hiredman: Yeah, I'm looking at it, it's not made it in yet though
13:51	przemek_	I hate to have to "polish" my code manually deleting spaces
13:51	CookedGryphon	koalallama: that's more like it :)
13:52	CookedGryphon	koalallama: one discrepancy, your previous code was doing the lastzeros count on (inc maxnum), this is doing it on maxnum
13:52	CookedGryphon	and i don't get what the def lastzeros 0 and sum 0 are there for
13:52	koalallama	good catch!
13:53	jjl`_	is anyone who works on cider-mode around?
13:53	koalallama	CookedGryphon: bit-rotting.. obviously not needed either
13:54	CookedGryphon	koalallama: wait, you might have been right, range is non-inclusive, so you don't need the inc, my bad
13:55	koalallama	refresh gist if you're not board of this already. moved the inc to the maxnum def at the top.
13:55	koalallama	bored*
13:56	CookedGryphon	koalallama: (last (range num)) is not num, you were right first time
13:56	koalallama	(ignore all I've just said, you were right that I was right)
13:59	CookedGryphon	lol, anyway, I'd like to see a version of that with reducers, but reducers/range isn't easily available and it's time for me to go home. Bye!
14:02	koalallama	S11001001: thanks to you as well!
14:34	mikerod	,((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
14:34	clojurebot	((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
14:34	mikerod	yay, Recursion theorem in practice
14:43	AeroNotix	cider has ruined me
14:43	AeroNotix	It's very good
14:44	AeroNotix	I tried Clojure back in pre-1.0 days (iirc?) with SLIME and ehhh it didn't quite fit like SLIME fits with Common Lisp. But CIDER? So good.
14:45	technomancy	there's still a number of things slime can do that cider can't
14:45	AeroNotix	technomancy: probably
14:45	seangrove	Is dorun blocking?
14:45	hyPiRion	seangrove: yes
14:46	seangrove	hyPiRion: Thanks, I thought it would be, but I'm seeing some strange things locally
14:47	bufferloss	hi, I'm interested in doing some hobbyist type projects with Clojure - specifically video games and or video game related stuff. I checked http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ but there don't seem to currently be many good options for interactive 3D graphics ala OpenGL
14:48	bufferloss	the one OpenGL thing that does exist explicitly states that development is slow and possibly non-existent
14:48	kristof	Sounds like territory not yet trodden upon
14:48	bufferloss	my other thought was to use Clojure in a similar way to e.g. Lua to allow users and 3rd parties to script game interactions
14:48	bufferloss	wondering if anyone has had experience with the latter or knows of any other good/viable options for the former
14:48	bufferloss	e.g. something that's not OpenGL
14:48	kristof	I imagine that there are bindings to OpenGL in Java, so it wouldn't be TREMENDOUSLY hard to wrap those in Clojure...
14:49	bufferloss	kristof, yeah I would guess the same as well
14:49	arrdem	kristof: it's jus that those bindings aren't especially good
14:49	bufferloss	what does minecraft use btw? does anyone know?
14:49	kristof	arrdem: Nobody wants to do intensive graphics calculating in java anyway
14:49	Wild_Cat	bufferloss: it uses Java3D
14:49	bufferloss	did they write e.g. their own occlusion culling algorithms?
14:49	bufferloss	Wild_Cat, ok thanks
14:50	bufferloss	how bad of an idea would it be to try to "hook in" to clojure "from" a C++ engine? ala allowing game event scripting with lua for example
14:50	Wild_Cat	bufferloss: you'd get the JVM's memory footprint combined with C++'s safety and ease of debugging.
14:51	Wild_Cat	so pretty bad, all in all, IMO
14:51	benkay	hey y'all, i'm having trouble deref'ing a future - i keep getting java.lang.ClassCastExceptions when trying to deref the return value of a Datomic transaction to get at its innards. here's the relevant paste (https://www.refheap.com/24040): any idea what i don't understand about futures in Clojure?
14:51	bufferloss	Wild_Cat, lol, ok
14:51	Wild_Cat	bufferloss: if you're gonna go with a straight C/C++ engine and main loop you might as well use Lua for scripting, that's what it's made for
14:51	`cbp	you could try clojurescript + node_webkit for 2d graphics
14:52	`cbp	+ webgl
14:52	bufferloss	Wild_Cat, yeah I suppose, I was actually contemplating trying to link against a common lisp runtime for example instead of lua
14:52	bufferloss	though I haven't done any common lisp (it's kind of defunct isn't it?)
14:54	andyf	bufferloss: No more defunct than usual :-)
14:54	mikerod	AeroNotix: I upgraded from nrepl.el to cider (after uninstalling nrepl.el) and everything became unstable and wouldnt' work
14:54	bufferloss	andyf, heh, ok
14:54	mikerod	so I reverted, I guess I'll have to do that again and tackle whatever issues I'm having. I would have expected a seemless transition though
14:54	mikerod	since it was just a rename
14:54	mikerod	well I guess not just a rename
14:55	technomancy	bufferloss: guile or chicken would be a lot easier to embed
14:55	andyf	bufferloss: The highest performance open source implementation I know of, SBCL, is still being maintained and improved by volunteers, and a guy named Zach Beane (sp?) actively maintains QuickLisp, which helps in distributing a set of up to date CL libraries.
14:56	stuartsierra	Clojure isn't great as a user scripting language because it compiles to JVM classes; there's no interpreter.
14:57	tim_	that being said, I'd be tempted to just use OpenGL from clojure
14:57	tbaldridge	or even from Java, and wrap the Java core with Clojure.
14:57	bufferloss	yeah actually I will likely try playing with Java3D just from within Clojure and see how that goes
14:57	tbaldridge	Clojure + eval on the JVM should make a fairly fast scripting language.
15:03	bufferloss	andyf, ok I'll give that a look as well, thanks
15:08	AeroNotix	What do people recommend for a YAML parser/writer library?
15:11	dobry-den	(clojure.string/replace text #"(?i)(:usa)" "<img src='/smilies/$1.gif'>") <-- Is it possible to (lower-case $1) somehow?
15:11	dobry-den	i.e. :UsA -> <img src='/smilies/usa.gif'>
15:14	AeroNotix	dobry-den: regex
15:14	AeroNotix	polak?
15:15	dobry-den	no, just lived in praha.
15:16	TimMc	&(clojure.string/replace "FOO" #"O+" clojure.string/lower-case)
15:16	lazybot	⇒ "Foo"
15:17	AeroNotix	,:foo
15:17	clojurebot	:foo
15:17	AeroNotix	,:choo
15:17	clojurebot	:choo
15:17	AeroNotix	train!
15:18	AeroNotix	TimMc: that works only if they know beforehand what they are replacing
15:19	dobry-den	AeroNotix: I see that \L will lowercase the match.
15:20	dobry-den	"\L$1" doesn't seem to work though
15:23	zerowidth	,(clojure.string/replace "foo:UsA:bar" #"(?i)(:usa)" (fn [[_ s]] (str "<img src=\"/images/" (clojure.string/lower-case s) ".gif\">") ))
15:23	clojurebot	"foo<img src=\"/images/:usa.gif\">:bar"
15:26	dobry-den	zerowidth: thanks for spelling it out. that function signature makes sense to me now
15:27	zerowidth	i'm not clear on the function parameters to the string/replace function, but that seemed to work
15:34	dobry-den	what's actually happening when running a website via "lein ring server" compared to lein running it?
15:43	jcromartie	grrrr… don't do this: (if this (throw …) (do something))
15:43	jcromartie	dobry-den: lein ring server starts jetty with the handler var as indicated in your project.clj
15:44	jcromartie	dobry-den: "lein run" just runs the :main specified in your project.clj, where it would be up to you to start jetty
15:45	jcromartie	dobry-den: and it should be a namespace with a -main fn specified by :main, vs. a var bound to a handler specified by :handler (I think?)
15:45	Wild_Cat	jcromartie: why is that if block bad practice?
15:45	jcromartie	Wild_Cat: if you're just checking something, use when and throw
15:45	jcromartie	it's particularly obnoxious when it's a long chain
15:46	jcromartie	(if a (throw …) (if b (throw …) (if c (throw …) (do-stuff)))
15:46	Wild_Cat	jcromartie: oh wait, didn't see the do thing was in the else block.
15:46	Wild_Cat	OK, I get it
16:01	jcromartie	I feel like I've made a design mistake, where I have all these functions taking a map containing a ref and dereferencing it to pass to the pure business domain functions
16:02	jcromartie	so, all over the place, it's like (fn [{:keys [read-model]} id] (get-user @read-model id))
16:03	jcromartie	maybe I'll just deref and assoc in that map in a higher level place
16:07	jcromartie	anybody want to take a look at this CQRS/event type deal for me https://gist.github.com/jcromartie/094b36e20132c970fbc0
16:17	matt444	is there a primer article on core.async that anyone can recommend?
16:20	stuartsierra	matt444: maybe tbaldridge's talk video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enwIIGzhahw
16:23	matt444	stuartsierra: thanks!
16:23	stuartsierra	you're welcmoe
16:26	mrhanky	should i avoid slurp when reading three txt files with a total size of 50kb ?
16:26	mrhanky	i read slurp should be avoided on larger files
16:27	jcromartie	mrhanky: so long as the strings that are created are not too large
16:27	matt444	Also this: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/11/07/clojurescript-101/
16:27	technomancy	mrhanky: "large" means "might not fit in memory"
16:28	mrhanky	oh okay :)
16:28	technomancy	presumably you are not running clojure on an arduino =)
16:28	jcromartie	Raspberry Pi maybe :P
16:41	TimMc	OK, who decided that maps and records should not be =, but lists and vectors could be?
16:41	TimMc	I would like to have a chat with them, perhaps involving some swearing.
16:41	technomancy	we warned you
16:41	technomancy	we warned you about records bro
16:42	technomancy	they're just like stairs
16:42	TEttinger	heh
16:42	jcromartie	huh
16:42	TEttinger	it's a joke from a comic
16:42	tcrayford	anybody ever see a ClassNotFoundException when using tooooools.namespace.repl/refresh, but upon normal import at the repl everything works fine?
16:43	locks	TEttinger: isn’t everything
16:43	technomancy	seangrove: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/comoc.php?cid=001.jpg
16:43	TEttinger	ha
16:43	tcrayford	or alternatively an error like "AVLTransientMap could not be cast to AVLTransientMap" ?
16:43	TEttinger	it's number 1 eh?
16:44	technomancy	obligatory http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
16:44	TEttinger	technomancy, it will make no sense out of context as an intentionally bad comic
16:44	TEttinger	then again, it doesn't in context either
16:44	technomancy	TEttinger: I was gonna say...
16:46	TEttinger	https://twitter.com/BarackObana I do find the joke twitter account even funnier, especially when the student who clearly spoke little English mistook Obana for Obama
16:47	seangrove	technomancy is obviously operating at a highe rlevel than I am
16:48	TimMc	seangrove: It's a terrible webcomic that a character from another webcomic writes.
16:49	seangrove	TimMc: Ah, ok. That helps a bit.
16:49	technomancy	TEttinger: or https://twitter.com/Bill_Nye__Tho
16:50	tcrayford	it's fine. am just working around by rm -rf ing everything out of ~/.m2 before any lein invocation
16:50	jcromartie	Does anybody else read "[f & args]" as "f'n args!"
16:50	TimMc	Intentionally bad art is not to everyone's taste.
16:51	TEttinger	that's grea technomancy
16:52	stuartsierra	tcrayford: is anything AOT-compiled?
16:53	tcrayford	I assume not, given that I've been running `lein clean` before starting up my repl
16:53	tcrayford	stuartsierra: actually, I fixed it by doing a require of the clojure namespace that defines the deftype before importing it
16:54	stuartsierra	tcrayford: Ah yes, that is simply a load-order issue.
16:55	tcrayford	weirdly, I was seeing the ns that defined that type before the thing that imported it in the list that refresh spews out, so kinda unsure why that fixed it
16:56	tcrayford	the TransientMap error is quite probably an AOT compilation issue (it's not related to tools.ns), but currently it doesn't go away with lein clean, only rm -rf ing ~/.m2/repository/avl (which is somewhat frustrating)
17:00	stuartsierra	Yes any time you have something that looks like "class Foo is not a Foo" it's probably caused by stale copies of the same class somewhere.
17:00	talios	mmm, starting the day with S.M.A.R.T. controller failures - fun fun fun
17:01	tcrayford	yeah, pretty much what I figured. Strange that `lein clean` isn't killing it though ;)
17:02	chrisbpos	hey. i remember a few months ago coming across a cool clojure learning site, it was a bit like the ruby/clojure koans, but it evaluated your answers right on the website, anyone know where this is?
17:03	chrisbpos	it was kind of zen-themed
17:04	BobSchack	chrisbpos: http://clojurescriptkoans.com/
17:04	BobSchack	?
17:05	chrisbpos	yep!!
17:05	chrisbpos	thanks very much BobSchack
17:05	BobSchack	np
17:23	seangrove	sritchie: Hey, you're using storm right?
17:23	sritchie	not anymore, but I worked on it for quite a while
17:23	sritchie	with, rather
17:23	seangrove	sritchie: If you used it on a clojure 1.5.1 project, would love to know how you got it setup
17:23	sritchie	oh, I was using it from Scala
17:24	seangrove	Did you set it up initially?
17:24	seangrove	It's been pretty painful to get running :P
17:25	seangrove	Especially running into problems knowing if jzmq is working properly
17:25	quizdr	,(rest [1 2 3)
17:25	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
17:26	quizdr	,(rest [1 2 3])
17:26	clojurebot	(2 3)
17:26	quizdr	So I rest a vector, and get a seq, right?
17:26	quizdr	so then why would anyone need to do (seq (rest [1 2 3])) if rest already returns a seq?
17:27	seangrove	sritchie: And where did you get help from whenever you ran into trouble? #storm-user is silent
17:27	sritchie	yeah, it was rough - mostly I just read code
17:27	sritchie	or talked to the storm team at twitter,
17:27	sritchie	but those guys didn't really know clojure, strangely enough
17:28	sritchie	there's one guy who works on storm who's the man
17:28	sritchie	jason jackson
17:28	sritchie	seangrove: nathan seems to have fully checked out too
17:31	bitemyapp	sritchie: hello puppy monster.
17:31	sritchie	:)
17:31	bitemyapp	sritchie: you are killing me.
17:31	sritchie	haha, I should set up a drop cam
17:31	sritchie	it's too much, dude
17:31	bitemyapp	I like this idea.
17:31	bitemyapp	sritchie: put up a web page.
17:31	seangrove	sritchie: Ah, bummer. Did it feel like a solid project to use, or was it stagnating?
17:31	bitemyapp	puppy-cam.
17:32	sritchie	bitemyapp: in haskell
17:32	bitemyapp	sritchie: you know me, sir.
17:32	sritchie	you couldn't stay away from that page
17:32	bitemyapp	heroin.
17:32	sritchie	all puppies, no runtime exceptions
17:32	sritchie	seangrove: you know, lots of people are building on it, and the apache thing may give it a boost -
17:32	bitemyapp	funny you say that, Google's AI competition Haskell example has a partial function that throws :(
17:33	sritchie	haha, oh no!
17:33	bitemyapp	ond default input! the buggers.
17:33	seangrove	sritchie: That's what I thought, but it's been pretty iffy to setup
17:33	sritchie	seangrove: but, I dunno, it was a pretty annoying proj to build on (for Summingbird)
17:33	bitemyapp	oh well, at least it's the typical mistake. Calling head on an empty list. Woo.
17:33	sritchie	haha, yup
17:33	sritchie	headOption all the way
17:33	tcrayford	sritchie: annnd now I'm super glad I didn't decide to use storm 10 months ago
17:34	bitemyapp	sritchie: you can do that in Haskell, but the culture prefers pattern matching that ONE thing. Everything else is Maybe.
17:34	sritchie	if you can handle a few dropped items, I'd go with Akka… BUT, I haven't been using it personally
17:34	sritchie	the dynamic topology scaling is killer
17:34	sritchie	I think they added a nice layer on top to give the at-least-once semantics with akka...
17:34	sritchie	forget what it's called
17:34	bitemyapp	sritchie: perhaps Kafka?
17:35	sritchie	kafka's awesome
17:35	bitemyapp	seangrove: do you just need a more reliable queue or what?
17:35	sritchie	if you're using storm you need a stream processor
17:35	bitemyapp	at-least-once + origin-generated UUID + logs = happy times with sanity intact.
17:36	bitemyapp	seangrove: what were you originally looking into Storm for?
17:36	jjl`_	question for emacs users: what are you actually using to have a sane environment for developing clojure? i'm really not happy with what i'm doing
17:36	seangrove	bitemyapp: Reliable, distributed workers, etc.
17:37	bitemyapp	seangrove: just use a multi-stage queue. Keep it simple.
17:38	bitemyapp	seangrove: failed/timed out tasks go to a secondary queue
17:38	technomancy	yeah, I could not figure out why Storm is so much more complicated than just sending sexps over rabbitmq for the vast majority of applications
17:38	bitemyapp	seangrove: our data warehouse at work is RabbitMQ feeding into Datomic. Running on Clojure.
17:39	seangrove	bitemyapp: That might be a better option ultimately
17:39	bitemyapp	technomancy: the topologies in Storm are actually easier to understand than RabbitMQ routing and a bit more powerful.
17:39	quizdr	jjl` i find emacs Live by sam aaron to be a simple one-stop shop to getting everything setup.
17:39	bitemyapp	technomancy: rabbitmq routing was designed by a sadistic telecom employee.
17:39	tcrayford	technomancy: at least storm doesn't claim to beat the cap theorem ;)
17:39	bitemyapp	bindings. whatever the fuck.
17:39	quizdr	jjl` https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
17:39	technomancy	bitemyapp: sure, but you only have like three routing patterns you actually need in practice
17:40	bitemyapp	seangrove: take UUID generation from origin seriously though, it enables at-least-once idempotent push!
17:40	bitemyapp	technomancy: for a pure MQ sure. technomancy: the problems Storm gets used for, typically, are a bit different.
17:40	bitemyapp	technomancy: Storm is closer to distributed dataflow than an MQ.
17:41	quizdr	jjl`_ i guess i was writing your nick wrong
17:41	bitemyapp	technomancy: one of the current challenges of distributed computing is that if an existing tool is even a bit removed from the ideal solution for your problem, it more often than not just won't work at all.
17:42	bitemyapp	thus the seeming NIH going on. We don't have very good building blocks for these problems.
17:42	technomancy	bitemyapp: the only take-away I could find about what it could do that a queue couldn't from the strangeloop talk was that the sharding algorithm he was using with the queue at the time couldn't handle changing the size of the worker queue or something
17:42	jjl`_	quizdr: does that just use cider-mode?
17:42	technomancy	I'm sure there's more to it, but he just did a really bad job of explaining why in that talk
17:42	quizdr	it has nrepl and i think they just added cider to it but it's in the dev packs not the default packs if I recall
17:43	zerowidth	wouldn't you want to be able to handle queue size changes?
17:43	quizdr	it instantly works. just install lein and emacs live and you have clojure working out of the box
17:43	technomancy	zerowidth: sure; he was just using a crappy queue
17:43	technomancy	something based on cassandra I think?
17:44	zerowidth	ahh
17:44	jjl`_	quizdr: ah they've just upgraded to cider. nrepl was renamed to cider.
17:44	jjl`_	quizdr: i've just finished hacking on nrepl-ritz to enable single step debugging with cider-mode. but i'm generally unhappy with it so far
17:45	quizdr	in emacs?
17:45	technomancy	jjl`_: maybe you could be more specific?
17:45	jjl`_	i'd probably use lighttable, but it doesn't have a decade of training my fingers
17:45	jjl`_	technomancy: breakpoints appear to be entirely broken, debug on exception seems to be entirely broken, to start with two
17:46	technomancy	oh, about ritz specifically;
17:46	technomancy	I thought you meant about emacs in general
17:46	jjl`_	yes. there are some other annoyances too, but they're comparatively general
17:46	quizdr	i found emacs quite easy to adapt to actually using I haven't fully understand the criticism against it for workflow. but I do find emacs hellish to understand for setup and config purposes, which is why I like Emacs Live since it sets everything up automatically up front so I can just focus on the work. I hear Rich Hickey himself ain't much of an emacs guy
17:46	sritchie	bitemyapp: I want to get a datomic instance set up for the social graph stuff I'm starting to push
17:46	sritchie	the "follows" and "watches", etc relationships
17:47	jjl`_	there are some bizarre situations where i find the indentation to be horribly wrong as well, but i guess i just have to go figure out the switches for that
17:47	sritchie	excited to try out some of the stuff you've pushed
17:47	quizdr	hmm that doesn't sound right. the indentation is a major aspect of clojure/lisp work, and emacs live seems to get that right. maybe you didn't have a good setup inside emacs
17:48	bitemyapp	sritchie: it would be nice if Brambling had a user that wasn't me or my coworker.
17:48	technomancy	indentation? wrong? it's unpossible.
17:48	jjl`_	right now i'm using cider largely uncustomised (i'm turning on eldoc)
17:50	quizdr	take a look at all the packs emacs live installs. it's a lot more than just cider. is cider alone supposed to be a complete clojure IDE?
17:50	technomancy	emacs live jumbles together a lot of unrelated junk
17:50	jjl`_	i gather that was the intention for cider, yes
17:50	technomancy	I wouldn't recommend it unless you're actually into the whole live-coding scene
17:50	bitemyapp	I'm not really keen on Emacs Live.
17:51	bitemyapp	it destroys the whole "building your lightsaber" experience.
17:51	jjl`_	this.
17:51	jjl`_	also, i don't really want to take my huge config and borg it into someone else's
17:51	bitemyapp	That too.
17:51	quizdr	bitemyapp that is correct, but if you are new to emacs and don't have 2 months to waste learning how it works under the hood, emacs live is the best way to get going with clojure and emacs with zero setup on your part
17:51	bitemyapp	"waste learning"
17:52	technomancy	if you don't have the time to spend to do it right, you should wait and switch to emacs when you do have the time
17:52	technomancy	it'll still be there
17:52	quizdr	i disagree
17:52	rasmusto	~emacs.d
17:52	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:52	quizdr	emacs live is really great to use
17:52	jjl`_	erm... i guarantee you'll spend more time in your editor as a programmer than anything else. worth learning.
17:52	quizdr	when you are ready to customize, that can wait until the future moment
17:52	bitemyapp	If you don't have time to learn, you don't have time to be a programmer.
17:52	quizdr	that's a ridiculous comment
17:52	quizdr	time is not infinite
17:53	quizdr	you can learn how to setup emacs and spend a lot of time on that, or you can jump in and start actually coding. you can customize the IDE at a later time
17:53	bitemyapp	I don't know what your experience, but I find that most of my job is learning. Application flows from the learning that happened.
17:53	quizdr	yes, but you surely realize that you can't learn everything at once. so you prioritize.
17:53	bitemyapp	Being able to edit text sounds pretty important to me.
17:53	quizdr	learning how to code in a new language is more important to me than learning how to setup an IDE
17:54	technomancy	if you're learning clojure still, you shouldn't be learning a new editor; emacs live or not
17:54	bitemyapp	I'd agree with that.
17:54	bitemyapp	Half-assing is a waste of time.
17:54	jjl`_	i think emacs is much easier to learn than an IDE anyway
17:54	jjl`_	you only need a handful of chords to get going and then you add the bits you want as you decide you want them
17:54	quizdr	emacs seems really easy to use for actually creating code, so i'm not sure what the deal is with its criticisms. but understanding its customizations can be a test of patience
17:54	jjl`_	e.g. i added multiple cursors a few weeks ago. i never would have learned how to use them from someone else's config
17:55	kristof	I don't think that applies to just chords.
17:55	technomancy	nothing to get you motivated to learn elisp like having spent the last few months trying to learn clojure using textmate
17:55	kristof	You just work with bare emacs functionality until you think "I hate _____, how do I fix this?" Google/ask, profit
17:56	kristof	Are people really complaining about emacs? The tutorial takes 20 minutes and then you're good to go, forever.
17:56	quizdr	i'm sure everyone in here had joy when first using a computer for the very first time, even if you had zero idea how it actually worked behind the scenes. understanding the backend of emacs or any other IDE is orthogonal to actually using it effectively as a learner.
17:56	bitemyapp	technomancy: the kiddles use Sublime Text now.
17:56	bitemyapp	technomancy: get with the times man.
17:57	ieure	bitemyapp, Lightroom
17:57	technomancy	bitemyapp: oh right; textmate isn't even proprietary anymore
17:58	kristof	mumble mumble lighttable
17:59	zerowidth	wait, there's a spreadsheet?
17:59	technomancy	zerowidth: it's just a CSV
18:00	sritchie	bitemyapp: how are you guys deploying datomic?
18:00	quizdr	for example, there is a reason why "list in a box" was so successful and used in so many books as the recommended IDE. great to learn Common Lisp without the learner having to spend a very long time learning to configure it on his/her own
18:00	sritchie	EC2?
18:00	quizdr	"lisp in a box"
18:00	bitemyapp	sritchie: yap.
18:00	bitemyapp	sritchie: provisioned IOPS for production instances. PostgreSQL storage layer.
18:01	sritchie	bitemyapp: n00b Q - if peers suck down a bunch of data to do computations,
18:01	sritchie	bitemyapp: could that overload a heroku instance, say?
18:01	sritchie	bitemyapp: I should probably do at least ANY reading on datomic configs before asking such questions.
18:01	bitemyapp	sritchie: you really do not want a peer on a Heroku instance.
18:01	bitemyapp	sritchie: like, really really.
18:01	bitemyapp	sritchie: you need fat RAM to make good use of datomic.
18:01	sritchie	okay
18:02	sritchie	so if I go this route, gotta migrate out of heroku to elastic beanstalk, or some other deploy environment
18:02	sritchie	or rathole and set up a whole docker thing
18:02	sritchie	:)
18:02	bitemyapp	sritchie: probably, unless you want to hide the peers behind an API the heroku instances can call.
18:02	xuser	bitemyapp: why pgsql?
18:02	bitemyapp	sritchie: https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus/
18:02	sritchie	nice
18:02	bitemyapp	xuser: because I'm not a card-carrying communist that uses things like DynamoDB.
18:03	bitemyapp	xuser: more seriously, I know PostgreSQL and how it behaves and it's something we can redeploy internally or leased machines if needs be.
18:03	bitemyapp	xuser: I can't "re-deploy" DynamoDB if we get tired of getting robbed by them.
18:04	technomancy	single-vendor lock-in: only a problem when it's amazon now?
18:04	bitemyapp	technomancy: I offered a way to make Heroku instances work :)
18:04	quizdr	has anyone found a really good tutorial on setting up a Clojure environment on elastic beanstalk or google app engine or basically any paas that is not Heroku? the Heroku folks are smart in realizing that they can spoil a lot of devs by taking care of all the sys admin for you
18:04	technomancy	this CSV is getting longer
18:05	bitemyapp	sritchie: unless you somehow have surplus labor to go around, I would avoid dev-ops rabbit holes as much as possible.
18:05	xuser	bitemyapp: is the transactor local storage bad?
18:06	sritchie	yeah, I already went through a fun ansible / pallet period
18:06	sritchie	the zen of devops, like sharpening 1000 pencils in a sitting
18:06	bitemyapp	xuser: are you asking about ephemeral disk backed Datomic storages?
18:06	bitemyapp	sritchie: and then writing nothing.
18:06	sritchie	:)
18:08	xuser	bitemyapp: I guess, why ephemeral?
18:08	gaverhae	Hey! Anyone here familiar with clojure.java.jdbc?
18:08	bitemyapp	xuser: have you used EC2 before?
18:08	sritchie	technomancy: here's an odd one: [do cljx, cljsbuild once dev, repl] and standalone-repl have a type mismatch merging profiles.
18:08	bitemyapp	xuser: I'm having a hard time understanding what question you were trying to ask.
18:08	sritchie	technomancy: what's standalone-repl refer to?
18:09	xuser	bitemyapp: the bult-in storage capabiltiy of datomic
18:09	xuser	is it not meant for production?
18:10	bitemyapp	xuser: you're talking about the frickin' dev storage?
18:11	xuser	bitemyapp: yes
18:11	bitemyapp	xuser: if you use something named "dev" in production you deserve what'll come to you.
18:11	bitemyapp	xuser: it's H2.
18:11	bitemyapp	you do not...want to use H2 in production-anything.
18:11	jjl`_	to be fair, it refers to it as 'transactor local', as opposed to 'dev'
18:11	bitemyapp	jjl`_: the config file says "dev"
18:12	bitemyapp	when people ask questions, I check my code, not their godforsaken website.
18:12	bitemyapp	their documentation has not historically helped us much.
18:12	jjl`_	:)
18:12	bitemyapp	working code and pestering them via support went much further.
18:13	technomancy	sritchie: I think it might have been a workaround for a bug in older lein versions; is it still around?
18:13	sritchie	just showed up on heroku
18:13	technomancy	sritchie: on a recently-deployed app?
18:13	sritchie	yeah, just a minute ago
18:13	sritchie	technomancy: I had to do some really funky build stuff to get around these issues with Austin destroying my AOT compilation...
18:13	technomancy	ok, means I forgot to do some cleanup is all
18:13	sritchie	so, liberal use of ^:replace
18:13	technomancy	should be able to safely ignore it
18:14	sritchie	okay, cool
18:15	matt444	If you right a function that uses chans internally, does a function that uses it need to know that chans are being used, need to use any special syntax?
18:16	matt444	They have to use take!, right?
18:19	matt444	or no, you use <!
18:22	shaungilchrist	like function that returns a chan you mean?
18:23	xuser	bitemyapp: you are worried about aws lock-in but not datomic lock-in?
18:24	scape	:)
18:25	technomancy	see, no datomic
18:25	scape	lol
18:25	technomancy	carry on; nothing to see here =)
18:26	justin_smith	regarding aws lockin, who good an option is openstack, and how hard is it to target openstack as an aws replacement?
18:27	alew	I heard openstack isn't doing so well
18:28	scape	I was rather happy with Linode, AWS pricing fluxuates too easily
18:28	nDuff	justin_smith: shrug. Depends on how much AWS infrastructure you're using.
18:28	nDuff	justin_smith: ...Amazon is certainly adding new APIs faster than they're being implemented elsewhere.
18:32	luxbock	I'm trying to solve Project Euler problem 3 without looking at other peoples solutions and I'm stuck
18:32	luxbock	https://gist.github.com/8446851
18:33	luxbock	the number presented in the problem is so large that it jams my repl
18:33	bitemyapp	xuser: I'm pretty grumpy about the fact that it's not open source.
18:34	bitemyapp	xuser: but I don't have a great alternative at the moment for a historical database.
18:34	arrdem	luxbock: you can write a better primality test than that...
18:34	arrdem	luxbock: also memoization would be nice here
18:34	hyPiRion	luxbock: remember that factors are not the same as prime factors
18:34	luxbock	ah, what algorithm should I be using? I got this one from SO
18:35	arrdem	luxbock: this is good, you can just tune it some
18:35	arrdem	luxbock: also hyPiRion hit this nail on the head
18:35	luxbock	oh yeah the factors function isn't really used for anything
18:36	arrdem	luxbock: really what you want to do is build a cache of {a \| (prime? a) && (zero? (n % a))}
18:36	luxbock	I had it there from an earlier attempt that was doomed to fail
18:36	arrdem	luxbock: which is trivial if you just compute all prime factors up to (sqrt n)
18:36	arrdem	sorry. just primes. no factor requirement.
18:36	arrdem	then the largest n \in that set is your largest prime factor
18:37	luxbock	alright, I'll check out memoize as well
18:37	arrdem	luxbock: memoize is really gonna help if you do this counting up thing.
18:38	luxbock	but shouldn't the way I was doing it be even faster? although I now realize that starting at half of n is far too high
18:38	luxbock	do I really have to calculate all the primes between 2 to n, when I only need the highest?
18:38	arrdem	luxbock: not [8,n), [8,(sqrt n)]
18:39	arrdem	well... I guess it's really [4,sqrt(n)]
18:39	hyPiRion	luxbock: it's sufficient to calculate up to sqrt(n), if you divide the number with the primes you've found so far
18:39	arrdem	the point is that if you count _up_ you have this O(1) primality table lookup from memoize on your side.
18:41	luxbock	ah, so I should be counting up and not down
18:41	arrdem	luxbock: yes, and the table of known primes is crucial to doing this really fast.
18:41	arrdem	luxbock: retaining a table known primes will be much more efficient than memoizing the entire prime? function.
18:43	hyPiRion	It's not that critical for this one, actually.
18:44	luxbock	so what would be a better test for primality?
18:44	luxbock	http://en.literateprograms.org/Miller-Rabin_primality_test_%28Clojure%29
18:44	luxbock	I found this but it seems like an overkill
18:44	hyPiRion	luxbock: the primality test you already got is sufficient for this problem
18:44	luxbock	ok
18:46	hyPiRion	(Shameless self-plug: If you need a more performant one later, https://github.com/hyPiRion/primes is pretty fast and is thread-safe)
18:46	luxbock	cool
18:50	koreth_	For what it's worth, I found 4clojure and exercism.io to be better Clojure learning tools than Project Euler. PE is great for testing your computational mathematics skills but its problems are mostly pretty far removed from anything you'd actually do in real life (well, unless you are a mathematician!)
18:51	luxbock	yeah I know, I'm kind of learning how to use simple-check at the same time
18:52	hyPiRion	luxbock: In this case, it's sufficient to find the prime numbers below sqrt(n) dividing n. That can be done through `(filter (fn [num] (and (prime? num) (divides? n num))) (range (Math/sqrt n)))`
18:53	luxbock	oh duh, and here I was writing a loop
18:55	hyPiRion	it's one of the things which comes with training in functional languages
18:56	luxbock	I think that's how I would usually write it, but I had this idea in my head that loops are more efficient
18:56	bitemyapp	luxbock: why?
18:57	luxbock	from reading Mikera's posts on core.matrix, but that level of optimization is far above my skill level
18:57	bitemyapp	luxbock: some of that might have more to do with the limitations of Clojure than anything involving FP.
18:57	bitemyapp	luxbock: there are languages that do things like loop and stream fusion of higher order functions like fold.
18:57	luxbock	actually the other purpose for playing with project Euler problems for me was to do micro benchmarks with criterium for different approaches
18:58	luxbock	yeah I don't doubt that at all
18:58	luxbock	for me compilers are pure black box magic though
18:59	luxbock	so I go by bits and pieces of what I read here and there
18:59	zbyte64	Anyone know how to write an om component (reactjs) that returns a string as html? (the string is generated by a 3rd party js library)
19:00	luxbock	but this is actually exactly what I wanted to do.. I'll write the loop version next and then compare them
19:00	zbyte64	returning a function or a string creates an invariant exception
19:25	alew	are there any good instrumentation solutions for clojure ala new relic?
19:26	technomancy	new relic works with clojure
19:27	alew	not automatically
19:27	alew	you have to provide annotations
19:27	technomancy	it does a bunch of stuff without annotations
19:28	technomancy	maybe with annotations it does more though
19:28	alew	Throwing it up on heroku with just the default setup only shows me memory usage, nothing else
19:29	technomancy	hm; I have seen it do a pretty thorough profiling without changing any source
19:29	technomancy	this was 2 years ago though
19:29	alew	apparently one of the versions they released had accidently support for ring instrumentation
19:30	quizdr	is there a practical limit to the number of args you can send to apply? in common lisp, this limit can be very low dependent on the implementation
19:32	rasmusto	quizdr: there's a limit to the number of arguments that a fn can take, but you can do [blah & more] to get the rest
19:32	nDuff	quizdr: in general, Clojure falls back to being inefficient if you're using a really large number, as opposed to just not working.
19:32	nDuff	(err, number of args)
19:32	cgag	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L612
19:32	cgag	if you're curious
19:33	nDuff	quizdr: ...though there _are_ some fairly low limits on how many args a function can take if you're using primitive data types.
19:34	quizdr	ok, i was reading about how some functions use apply in their implementation, such as join.
19:35	nDuff	quizdr: nod. In general, that'll fall back to an implementation that passes an Object[] as the last argument (which is how Java's varargs work in general), and can thus handle an arbitrary length.
19:45	lsdafjklsd	Anyone using lightable to develop clojurescript apps and know how to hook up a browser repl?
19:45	john2x	anybody using revise? I was wondering on what's the standard way of creating the database and tables.. would an arbitrary "script" (that's not part of the main project's namespace?) that creates it suffice?
19:50	technomancy	clojurebot: clojars migrations?
19:50	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
19:50	technomancy	aw come on
19:50	technomancy	I know I've taught you that before
19:51	matt444	What is the difference between a chan and port?
19:51	matt444	Seem to the same
19:51	technomancy	clojurebot: clojars migrations \|are\| just a namespace with functions: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/db/migrate.clj
19:51	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
19:51	technomancy	john2x: ^ check that out
19:59	lsdafjklsd	clojurebot: clojars migrations?
19:59	clojurebot	clojars migrations are just a namespace with functions: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/db/migrate.clj
20:15	arrdem	technomancy: does clojurebot not provide inference engine responses to arbitrary channel text?
20:16	arrdem	I'm looking at the inference engine and it doesn't look like arbitrary patterns can be matched...
20:16	technomancy	arrdem: I feel like if I dove into the source it would take away the mystery
20:18	technomancy	arrdem: that said I think for every line there's a 1% chance he'll interpret it as being addressed to him
20:18	arohner	when parsing some XML w/ clojure.data.xml, I'm hitting https://gist.github.com/arohner/8448042 I think it has something to do w/ XML namespaces?
20:18	technomancy	"Namespaces? But XML doesn't have namespaces." --every XML library author, at first
20:19	arohner	:-)
20:19	arrdem	technomancy: ok. I was kinda looking for a way to make clojurebot match ".pastebin."
20:27	squidz	is there a good way to profile clojurescript performance?
20:28	bbloom	squidz: w/ source maps, standard js profilign tools apply
20:29	squidz	bbloom: okay thanks
20:36	davorb	hey. i'm new to clojure, but i've used common lisp before. can i use slime with clojure or something similar?
20:36	jack_rabbit	nrepl
20:36	jack_rabbit	davorb, it's about the same.
20:36	davorb	thanks jack_rabbit
20:36	jack_rabbit	np :)
20:38	AimHere	davorb, there IS clojure slime. But everyone stopped using it when they discovered nrepl
20:39	davorb	and can someone explain to me what leiningen is? is it like ruby gems or is it like javascript's yeoman?
20:40	davorb	or is it sort of like grunt?
20:40	davorb	i've looked at it, and it feels like you've got a bunch of grunt tasks and then you run them
20:40	bja	davorb, sorta like grunt. it's a nicer interface to maven
20:40	davorb	ah, okay. so it's basically a build manager?
20:41	bja	yes, but it has a lot of development-related functionality too
20:41	AimHere	Something like that. Basically if you're doing anything in clojure, you want it, and you want it bad
20:41	bja	AimHere, if you do stuff in other languages you want it and want it bad too.
20:41	bja	want to kill myself when I use pip/virtualenv
20:41	AimHere	It's clojure's swiss-army build tool
20:42	bitemyapp	davorb: Clojure is just a library.
20:42	bitemyapp	davorb: Leiningen and nrepl are your interfaces to the language-that-is-a-library
20:43	davorb	bitemyapp: okay, i think i get it. thanks.
20:52	chare	ok bad news
20:52	chare	I had discussion with friends
20:52	chare	they want ruby on rails
20:52	chare	tell me that clojure has something I can counter with
20:52	cgag	that's a hard battle to win
20:53	locks	there’s pedestal…
20:54	cgag	immutability by default, much better performance, actual concurrency support
20:54	bitemyapp	guys
20:54	bitemyapp	don't waste your time on this person.
20:54	locks	that’s harsh
20:54	bitemyapp	He's a troll or at minimum not quite psychotypical.
20:54	bitemyapp	locks: he's been trolling this channel since last year.
20:54	AimHere	Nothing wrong with a little light trolling
20:55	bitemyapp	locks: he's the whole reason we had to bring active ops back.
20:55	bitemyapp	single-handedly.
20:55	AimHere	Especially since all it'll get him is a salespitch for clojure!
20:55	locks	maybe he just needs love
20:55	bitemyapp	I'm not exaggerating.
20:55	bitemyapp	locks: we uh, tried that. He never stops language trolling. Ever.
20:55	bitemyapp	locks: months and months on end.
20:55	bitemyapp	Please stop polluting the channel with this.
20:55	bitemyapp	If you really want to help him, have him query you.
20:55	chare	bitemyapp why dho you hate me
20:56	bitemyapp	chare: you don't code.
20:56	bitemyapp	chare: you waste the time of people that do.
20:56	chare	you are overexaggerating
20:56	chare	and what is pedestal
20:56	bitemyapp	you don't need to prefix 'exaggerating' with 'over'.
20:57	bitemyapp	Exaggeration is exaggeration. Overexaggeration is redundant.
20:57	bitemyapp	And I'm not exaggerating.
20:57	locks	chare: pedestal is a web framework for clojure, it is very similar to ruby on rails
20:57	AimHere	overexaggerating is a pretty good self-referential term.
20:57	chare	how similar is similiar
20:58	rkneufeld	locks: wut
20:58	bja	chare, they are both web frameworks
20:58	locks	chare: they both show HTML in your browser
20:58	bitemyapp	rkneufeld: but the real question is, do you really want to dive in?
21:00	bitemyapp	locks: I don't think you've used Pedestal mate. It's quite nice, but I don't think I'd call it similar, let alone 'very', to Rails at all. It's the closest thing Clojure has to a fully integrated web stack though, which is possibly desirable if you don't like more componentized approaches like Ring/Compojure/et al.
21:00	quizdr	i'm a little confused by the arguments list that starts out this function, is it a destructing form? (fn primes-from [n [f & r]] .....
21:00	bitemyapp	locks: there's a big emphasis in Pedestal on things that Rails, frankly, can't even do at all.
21:01	bja	bitemyapp, caribou looks framework-ish
21:01	locks	bitemyapp: I was suppose to counter-troll him, not troll you
21:01	bja	I haven't seen any other frameworks that are being maintained
21:01	arrdem	why isn't /ignore working on chare...
21:01	bja	unless you count immutant
21:01	locks	I was about to say datomic is a clojure library for mysql but, well
21:01	bitemyapp	locks: this isn't trolling and you're propagating inaccurate information in a public channel and adding to the pollution. Just stop.
21:02	AimHere	quizdr, yes, that's what it seems to do
21:02	bitemyapp	bja: Luminus is what I usually recommend to people that want a shake-n-bake way to get started.
21:02	luxbock	there's also http://hoplon.io/
21:02	bitemyapp	bja: Caribou is half-way point between the template-y Luminus and the framework approach.
21:03	bitemyapp	this is information that could go on the wiki....hmmm.
21:03	chare	what are these supposed things that pedestal can do but rails can't
21:04	bitemyapp	chare: learn to google, wastrel.
21:05	chare	bitemyapp: you're the expert so I defer to your expertise
21:06	bitemyapp	chare: I want some evidence that you're going to stop wasting peoples' time and start writing code before I lift a finger on your behalf. You've wasted countless hours already.
21:07	kristof	"If you don't like componentized appraoches like Ring/Compojure/et al"
21:07	bitemyapp	kristof: what?
21:07	kristof	You know, once I read somewhere that component mix and match web development was "the Clojure Way". I think that was someone justifying the lack of a full web stack floating around.
21:08	seubert	it used to be a fuller web stack, this is intentional
21:08	quizdr	if I want a function to accept a vector as an argument, I must use & to access all the elements in the vector, right? Because just binding the whole vector to a single argument variable doesn't seem to do this: (defn gsg [j [r]] [ j r]) returns (gsg 1 [2 4 5 6]) --> [1 2]
21:08	kristof	Probably.
21:08	bitemyapp	seubert: not fuller, just more integrated.
21:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: if one was so inclined you could probably compute the average response time per word of #clojure, count the number of words ever sent to chare/chord and then compute the USD price of wasted developer time...
21:08	kristof	What's the equivalent of Rack for Clojure?
21:08	seubert	right, sorry bitemyapp
21:08	bitemyapp	kristof: we atomized Noir on purpose.
21:08	cgag	quizdr: yeah, looks like that takes a number and a seq, and binds the first element of that seq to f and the rest of it to r
21:08	ddellacosta	kristof: ring
21:08	cgag	oh wow
21:08	cgag	woops
21:08	kristof	Oh, that's right
21:08	bitemyapp	kristof: in Haskell that'd be WAI.
21:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: tempting.
21:08	kristof	Yes, I remember reading about WAI
21:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: I should invoice the motherfucker.
21:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: and put up a trust fund for learning Clojure developers that disburses money for books.
21:09	bitemyapp	books*
21:09	bitemyapp	you only get reimbursed if you actually read the book.
21:09	chare	bitemyapp: if we want clojure to beat ruby then we need you to be working on the nextgen framework for clojure
21:09	kristof	bitemyapp: the funds would go directly to No Starch Press
21:10	arrdem	kristof: I find this outcome acceptable
21:10	bitemyapp	kristof: LYAH?
21:10	kristof	chare: I believe he just said not 3 minutes "start writing code before I lift a finger on your behalf"
21:11	kristof	bitemyapp: I wasn't aware that NSP was the one that published the LYAH book
21:11	locks	my LYAH book arrived with the spine unglued :(
21:11	locks	hazards of mail
21:11	kristof	locks: less starch that way
21:11	bitemyapp	locks: yeowch.
21:11	bja	chare, I don't know that anyone is looking to beat ruby
21:11	bitemyapp	kristof: LYSE too.
21:12	bitemyapp	chare: I don't write that much Clojure outside of work anymore.
21:12	kristof	Learn You Some Erlang?
21:12	bitemyapp	kristof: yis.
21:12	locks	I re-started reading joy of clojure 2ed today
21:12	bitemyapp	locks: still MEAP?
21:12	locks	bitemyapp: yup
21:12	locks	think so
21:13	kristof	Did they push the release date on that one?
21:13	quizdr	ah i figured out my brain fry on the destructing thanks cgag and AimHere
21:13	bitemyapp	I think I'm already on that. Saw an email update about it.
21:13	locks	last update was somewhere last week
21:14	chare	why is there no learn you a clojure book
21:14	locks	kristof: "Expected publication Winter 2014"
21:14	kristof	locks: Guess I was thinking about something else.
21:14	ddellacosta	chare: Clojure Programming works for that (http://www.clojurebook.com/)
21:14	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: and then some.
21:15	chare	ddellacosta: not paying
21:15	quizdr	chard a new book on Web development in Clojure was just released today
21:15	quizdr	i meant chare not chard
21:15	bitemyapp	whatever, that's been one of his names too.
21:15	quizdr	ha ha
21:16	ddellacosta	chare: if you need free resources to learn Clojure, you can start the way I did, with 4clojure and the Clojure core API reference. That combined with stack overflow and asking meaningful questions on IRC is a great way to learn.
21:16	locks	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming
21:17	locks	clojurescriptkoans.com
21:17	locks	etc
21:17	ddellacosta	locks: yeah, great links
21:17	ddellacosta	forgot about clojurescriptkoans
21:17	locks	the koans aren’t for everyone
21:19	quizdr	wait did chare say there is no clojure book out there? by last count there are at least 8 or 9 solid Clojure books in publication
21:19	chare	FREE BOK
21:19	quizdr	chard did you ever go to the cinema?
21:20	quizdr	chare
21:20	quizdr	do you go to the cinema ever, or sometimes stop for a meal at a restaurant?
21:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: so this dropbox thing worked out pretty well...
21:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: now I have ~/doc/org/* sync magically across mobile, laptop and desktop :D
21:20	xuser	chare: http://www.braveclojure.com/
21:21	ddellacosta	chare, are you finding any of these links useful to you?
21:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: eggscellent :)
21:21	chare	ddellacosta: I haven't started yet still reading erlang book
21:21	ddellacosta	chare: your point?
21:22	luxbock	arrdem: are you using MobileOrg?
21:23	`cbp	clojure cookbook is free
21:26	quizdr	there are some great links here, interesting books i've never heard of and that are free, sweet, thanks guys. chare hope you are paying attention.
21:27	jcromartie	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XluovrUA6Bk
21:27	ddellacosta	quizdr: glad someone is getting something out of it. :-)
21:28	chare	so clojure needs to kill ruby and python thats all I care about eventually
21:28	ddellacosta	jcromartie: I think he's holding a copy of "The Internet Gazette" at the top, excellent
21:28	ddellacosta	chare: alright, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you adieu and good luck.
21:29	quizdr	my first clojure book was the OReilly book. it was a bit intimidating for someone totally new to this kind of programming, let alone the language. after 150 pages, i switched to Halloway's book, much more accessible to a newcomer
21:29	quizdr	i look forward to the OReilly book after I have a few thousand lines of Clojure under my belt
21:29	chare	ddellacosta admit it you want python and ruby to die too
21:32	kristof	chare: Such a hard stance. You fighter! Why do you feel this way?
21:32	chare	kristof I'm just saying what I think not hiding the politically incorrect view that you're afraid to say
21:32	quizdr	no kidding. his thinking is very black and white. in his defense, this is a typical perception for many with a programmer's mind. but those who appreciate the grey areas will get more out of programming, and of life. i think clojure was created with such perception
21:33	kristof	chare: You remind me of Napoleon "liberating" Europe.
21:33	kristof	Anyway, I am too busy enjoying my life to embark on a crusade.
21:33	chare	quizdr why do you fight the urges to say you hate python and ruby
21:34	quizdr	chard no one here is "afraid" to say "python must die." why do you think that? who wants them to "die"? who has the energy to waste on such nonsense? you are a troll man.
21:35	ddellacosta	now that we've established that, let us let the troll starve and encourage it to move on to seek more bountiful pastures
21:35	quizdr	ddellacosta agreed my brother
21:36	ddellacosta	quizdr: :-)
21:36	quizdr	i'm going to go get some biryani now and satisfy my taste buds with some spicy curry
21:36	kristof	Oh! You lucky duck.
21:37	quizdr	i'd say you should join me but i suspect that's not practical or likely.
21:37	kristof	I will travel the world over for spicy foods.
21:37	quizdr	as do i
21:37	kristof	Oh, that's actually a good idea. I wonder if my girlfriend would go for that...
21:37	matt444	Any hint at what I'm doing wrong here? https://www.refheap.com/24088
21:38	quizdr	anyone else in here from Singapore?
21:38	arrdem	luxbock: yep :D
21:38	arrdem	luxbock: haven't used it for anything yet but I just got the import/export crud set up.
21:38	quizdr	there's a big Haskell group here in Singapore but I'd love to get some Clojure meet ups going too. Heck I've never even used Haskell.
21:39	ddellacosta	quizdr: you are in Singapore? Are you doing Clojure there? I worked there for a short period when I was at my last company (based in Tokyo).
21:39	quizdr	i'm in Singapore for about 2 years now. but my work is in C++ (unfortunately). Clojure is strictly a hobby for now
21:40	quizdr	see yalls later
21:40	chare	don't fight the anger I let out all the rage
21:41	luxbock	arrdem: hmm it's never worked for me for some reason, but my org-setup is fairly customized so might be because of that
21:41	ddellacosta	quizdr: gotcha, enjoy
21:41	arrdem	luxbock: it turns out that mobile-org has some import-export work that needs to be done
21:42	arrdem	luxbock: it initially wasn't working for me either but after some bludgeoning it submitted
21:42	ddellacosta	matt444: what happens if you get rid of the close! ?
21:42	luxbock	maybe I'll give it another go later today
21:43	matt444	@ddellacosta: same result
21:43	arrdem	luxbock: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8432108/how-to-automatically-do-org-mobile-push-org-mobile-pull-in-emacs
21:44	arrdem	luxbock: http://orgmode.org/manual/MobileOrg.html#MobileOrg
21:44	ddellacosta	matt444: what result do you get by the way?
21:44	matt444	ddellacosta: 3
21:45	luxbock	are you storing your org-files in Dropbox only or are you using symlinks?
21:45	arrdem	luxbock: I have everything treed out in ~/doc and symlinked from ~/Dropbox to whatever I wanted DB to sync for me
21:45	arrdem	worked a treat
21:46	arrdem	once I set up matching symlinks on all my boxes
21:46	luxbock	alright, I'll give it another go later today, thanks for the links
21:47	ddellacosta	matt444: not positive but I suspect you'll have to call <! multiple times to get all the values out of the merged channel. You may try to put that last line in a (while true ...) loop.
21:48	matt444	ddellacosta: yes, i think you're right
21:50	ddellacosta	matt444: ah, except by just looping through it, you'll just call map over and over, so that won't work. You probably will need to merge the channels outside of a while loop, then try pulling from the merged channel inside the loop.
21:51	ddellacosta	again, not positive; haven't used merge much and not confident I grasp the semantics of it fully
21:51	ddellacosta	not much = not at all
22:07	squidz	i'm trying to make a function faster in clojurescript. The funciton uses assoc which seems to slowing it down. Does anybody know a faster way to implement this? Here is the funciton https://www.refheap.com/24094
22:10	squidz	it takes a map and one of the maps keys(group key), then returns a new map where every key is combined with the selected 'group key'
22:11	AimHere	squidz, I don't know if it'll be faster, but you tried zipmap?
22:11	AimHere	Something like (zipmap (map #(str k group-name) (keys m)) (vals m))
22:12	dnolen	squidz: also might be faster to use (into {} ...) as that will use transients
22:12	AimHere	You might need to change the name of the 'map' argument
22:13	squidz	i'll try it with into and zipmap to see if that helps
22:13	dnolen	squidz: how big is the map?
22:13	squidz	around 15-20 key values, but that is being called around 700 times
22:15	AimHere	Oh, note that there's a 'reduce-kv' function for the sort of job you're doing
22:16	AimHere	(reduce-kv (fn [m k v] ... ) instead of the syntax you were using
22:17	AimHere	Hang on, calling a function 700 times on 20 sets of keys?
22:17	AimHere	So each time this is happening, you're morphing a key and then associng it back in place, taking whatever performance penalties for deleting and inserting a key?
22:18	AimHere	For each key, can you fix it that you're doing all the mutations at once? You'd be saving 680 hash lookups
22:20	dnolen	squidz: how long is that taking (and under what circumstances?)
22:22	egghead	dnolen: you should link to kioo in the om readme :)
22:22	dnolen	egghead: thx for the reminder will do
22:27	squidz	dnolen: right now it is taking around 3 seconds. What I am actually trying to do is given an array of maps, I want to transform so that the array shortens and the maps gain extra keys. I basicallly group by a key then for each of those gorups I output a map with combinations of that key with the remaining keys in the map. Here is all the code for an example https://www.refheap.com/24096
22:27	dnolen	squidz: 3 seconds? on what browser?
22:28	dnolen	squidz: I just made a map of 20 keys and I could run your function 700 times in ~45ms
22:31	squidz	on chrome. Let me give you a cljsfiddle http://cljsfiddle.net/fiddle/beandipper.datameld
22:31	squidz	it may be the other funcitons that call it
22:32	dnolen	squidz: even using your last refheap it takes < 30ms for 700 runs of meld-data
22:34	squidz	dnolen: here is chromes flame chart http://imgur.com/GLnb580
22:37	squidz	for me the input for meld-data has 672 maps, each map having the length 13
22:38	dnolen	squidz: that's not a particularly informative flame chart w/o more information
22:38	squidz	dnolen: do you want the input data?
22:38	dnolen	squidz: that would help considerably
22:38	dnolen	squidz: what optimization settings here? advanced?
22:43	squidz	dnolen: simple optimization here is the data http://pastebin.com/5TTxj2rm
22:44	jcromartie	dear god, I've been trying to make this huge refactor all day and I'm just now finally getting the REPL to start…? maybe?
22:44	jcromartie	I suck
22:45	dnolen	squidz: that's not EDN, are you calling clj->js inside the loop?
22:45	dnolen	squidz: er js->clj
22:45	warz	hi all. new to clojure here. when writing a lib, like clj-http, is everything in `client.clj` visible to my app, or is there a way to export only certain functions, etc?
22:45	warz	looks like everything is public, if you will
22:45	squidz	I am feeding the data like data -> js->clj -> meld-data
22:46	squidz	so only once before the call of meld-data
22:46	dnolen	squidz: k trying it out here
22:48	jcromartie	phew, it compiles finally
22:48	jcromartie	I know I should have done it in bite-size pieces
22:49	jcromartie	but, records...
22:50	jcromartie	if I could just listen to technomancy...
22:51	technomancy	clojurebot: stairs is <reply>we warned you about stairs! http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/archive/001.jpg
22:51	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:52	jcromartie	tomorrow will be time for serious pair up and code review, to get this thing in shape
22:52	technomancy	clojurebot: records is stairs
22:52	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:53	dnolen	squidz: which group are you using?
22:53	dnolen	squidz: like that's the argument to meld-data here?
22:53	squidz	the group is "scenario"
22:54	squidz	so (meld-data "scenario" data)
22:54	dnolen	squidz: cannot repro under advanced
22:54	dnolen	squidz: ~279ms
22:54	dnolen	squidz: under Node.js which is usually slower than Chrome
22:55	dnolen	squidz: for EDN conversion and call to meld
22:56	dnolen	after JIT kicks in, ~110ms on my machine
22:56	squidz	hmmmm. I'm calling it in a go block. That shouldn't effect it so much right?
22:58	dnolen	squidz: seems unlike but your flamegraph is bizarrely noisy leading up to the call
22:58	squidz	pulling the data from a chan
22:58	dnolen	squidz: you're pulling data out of the chan in one big piece?
22:58	squidz	yes I think so
22:58	dnolen	squidz: under simple I see ~200ms
22:59	dnolen	still nothing close to what you're seeing
23:00	dnolen	squidz: probably going to need a minimal reproducible case that removes all the surrounding context for me to dig in further.
23:01	dnolen	squidz: but from what I can tell, nothing slow about your data transform
23:01	dnolen	well, not 3secs slow way
23:01	squidz	hm okay. Maybe trying to get a reproducable case will lead me to the problem if it is elsewhere in the project
23:02	squidz	i'll try to get a simple reproducable case and if I am still getting the same results i'll give you the simple case, but I sense that isolatiing it out will let me figure it out
23:09	dnolen	squidz: a simple perf test would be to set a global and then call your meld-data on a timeout to get it out of the go block stuff
23:12	ddellacosta	very confused with setting up cljx: I can load my cljx namespace in the (non cljs-) console, and cljx seems to be picking up changes based on my configuration, but I see no files produced and clojurescript is obviously not finding my cljx namespaces when I load it up in the browser. What is going on?
23:15	akurilin	Does everybody else also implement logging as a one-time string dump in their Ring apps? As in, if you're printlning away one piece of information at a time, as opposed to building the entire log string first, you end up with a garbled mess during concurrent requests.
23:16	akurilin	I'm even bubbling up exceptions in the response map to the logger to prevent that from being a mess as well.
23:17	`cbp	use an agen? :pt
23:17	`cbp	agent*
23:17	akurilin	Taking over exception propagation feels a bit strange.
23:17	akurilin	`cbp: this would effectively serialize it for me?
23:19	`cbp	a logging agent would fix the many things writing at once to a file
23:19	`cbp	it would queue the writes
23:21	akurilin	got it
23:29	ddellacosta	alright, so apparently you can't specify a specific filename in cljx source-paths...
23:34	sritchie	do you guys know if anyone's written the inverse of ring's nested-params?
23:34	sritchie	to generate a map of params like {"card[zip]" "22302"} from input like {:card {:zip 22302}}
23:48	ddellacosta	sritchie: I don't know of anything specifically, but where are you trying to use this? Is it within the context of an HTTP request, client or server-side?
23:48	sritchie	this is for constructing requests to the stripe API
23:48	sritchie	API calls
23:49	ddellacosta	sritchie: I don't know if it does all of what you need, but ring.util.codec has some functionality that will let you do stuff like {"foo" ["a" "b"]} => "foo=a&foo=b"
23:49	sritchie	ah, okay
23:49	sritchie	I'll take a look
23:49	ddellacosta	sorry, probably a bad example
23:49	sritchie	no, good pointer for a place to look
23:50	ddellacosta	but maybe that can help...will think of what else is out there.