#clojure – 2014-01-16

2014-01-16

00:10	ddellacosta	For those of you writing applications backed by a relational database, how do you find yourself organizing your namespaces with regards to the database mapping? Do you have namespaces which map to entities, like "my-namespace.thing1" and those which map to relations, like "my-namespace.thing1-to-thing2" (a.k.a one-to-many or whatnot)? Right now we have an overly simplistic mapping of namespaces to entities, and the relations tend t
00:10	ddellacosta	get put in one or the other, and it's not optimal.
00:11	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: generally end up with a flat models
00:11	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: what do you mean by a "flat model?"
00:12	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: you mean that you essentially don't normalize the db?
00:12	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: as one data point, I have a namespace called "data" with functions like "users" or "accounts" or "things": (data/users) or (data/users-by-id db id) and so on.
00:13	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: yeah, that's more or less what we have now, and it's not working out. :-(
00:13	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: Too many different kinds of entities in the DB?
00:14	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: if I'm understanding you correctly, and you mean something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_model#Flat_model, then I'm afraid we are too far gone for that...I'm trying to figure out how to map our current schema to a good namespace structure as we're stuck with it for now.
00:14	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: there's not too many, I don't think--it's a relatively small number of entities in fact. It's just that, even at this size, the relationships are complex, and it's not always clear where to put stuff that joins multiple tables.
00:15	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: Ah, right. What makes sense when you put something in a namespace doesn't seem to make sense when you're looking for something: the old filing vs lookup prob?
00:16	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: yeah, although in our case it feels like filing and lookup are both a problem! In the end, it also makes it harder to reason about the overall complexity of the system.
00:17	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: One of the presenters at Clojure West suggested using a "homeless" namespace for stuff you're not sure about until things shake out. Probably not what you need, but I loved that idea.
00:18	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: yeah, I mean, I should probably just start by going with my initial idea, which is to build out some relationship-based namespaces (thing1-thing2) and see how well that works. As it is, I'm a bit stuck.
00:18	Tolstoy	Something like: db/users db/servers db/whatever?
00:19	Tolstoy	Then db/users/get-by-id db/users/get-by-name? That sort of thing?
00:19	Tolstoy	db/users/get-accounts-by-user
00:19	Tolstoy	db/accounts/get-users-by-account. ;)
00:19	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: well, more like, db/users and db/user-documents and db/documents
00:19	Tolstoy	Oy.
00:19	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: yes, you are describing the problem exactly. :-)
00:20	Tolstoy	Could you go by the main limiter you're looking for?
00:20	Tolstoy	If you want to find all the documents for a user, that's user focussed.
00:21	Tolstoy	All the users a document is associated with, thats document focussed?
00:21	Tolstoy	Yeah, tough. Hm. Your suggestion is at least clear.
00:22	Tolstoy	PITA if you change the schemas, though.
00:22	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: I started with that--the problem is that if you want all of Dave's widgets, and that has a fair amount of qualifications on the widgets, you have a ton of logic for which kind of widget you want in your user namespace (for example).
00:23	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: yeah, I'm not too worried about massive schema changes, not at this point.
00:23	Tolstoy	ddellacosta: I work on a non-Clojure app at work with similar issues. Only that db is actually an object-database mapped onto an RDBMS.
00:23	Tolstoy	Not foreign keys.
00:24	Tolstoy	Everything is hooked together via Object Identifiers.
00:24	Tolstoy	In other words, it's not going to change because no one understands it anymore.
00:24	ddellacosta	Tolstoy: woah, that sounds like a pain...haha
00:25	dsrx	i like that, code changes start quickly and then peter out as fewer and fewer people really understand it
00:25	dsrx	until it reaches a critical point where nobody can understand it anymore, and then change stops
00:25	dsrx	then, if it's a front end web project somebody rewrites it in the latest framework and the process repeats.
00:26	Tolstoy	dsrx: Yep. Meanwhile, you're STILL lectured about business "realities" when you ask to spend time addressing the problem.
00:26	ddellacosta	dsrx: I try to avoid that by always identifying the parts of the codebase I don't understand and reading through them. If I can make the case that they are not well structured enough, then they become a target for re-factoring. Testing helps make that less painful. But it's easy when the codebase is smaller.
00:26	Tolstoy	dsrx: it's like geology. "Ah, here's the iridium layer. After that, nothing."
00:27	Tolstoy	dsrx: The app I've worked with is about 13 years old: you see all the Java fashions merged together.
00:27	dsrx	Tolstoy: mercy
00:27	Tolstoy	dsrx: Including using old m_instanceVar naming schemes and so on.
00:28	Tolstoy	dsrx: And RMI! And XSLT! And SOAP! Those poor guys seem to have incorporated tech during the five minutes when it seemed like a good idea.
00:29	dsrx	for about a year I worked in a university lab doing computational science. working with a fortran codebase started in the late 70s is a treat
00:31	dsrx	nice to see this sentence in the documentation: "All new code should be written in FORTRAN77." :)
00:31	dsrx	it was originally written in some compile-to-fortran language that included useful control structures like "while" and "when-else"
00:31	Tolstoy	Hard to believe Lisp and Fortran are contemporaries, eh?
00:32	ddellacosta	I don't even know what Fortran looks like
00:34	bbloom	ddellacosta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:4_train.jpg
00:35	ddellacosta	bbloom: huh, I guess it must be pretty fast
00:35	dobry-den	How would you go about spinning up a new JVM while serving requests on old JVM, and the swapping them?
00:35	dsrx	the most memorable feature is its formatting rules. the first 5 or 6 columns or so are reserved for things like marking a comment, marking a line continuation (lines can be no longer than 66 columns), statement labels
00:35	bbloom	dobry-den: HTTP requests? use your load balancer :-)
00:36	Tolstoy	dsrx: Didn't there used to be special paper you could write programs on ... before the "keypunch operator" make cards?
00:37	Tolstoy	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/FortranCodingForm.png/800px-FortranCodingForm.png
00:40	dsrx	Tolstoy: haha, I'm fortunate to not have had to know about that at least
00:40	rplaca	that's why 72 and 80 columns are still magic numbers
00:42	dsrx	the original 80-column punch card was made that way so it'd be the same size as a dollar bill at the time
00:43	dsrx	so the census cards could be transported in treasury dept. containers
00:49	Tolstoy	wow
00:56	technomancy	man, I thought the @clojuremarkov spammers had given up, but it turns out they were just on vacation
00:58	rplaca	technomancy: I hadn't seen that before. It's kind of awesome
00:59	peterdon	/quit
01:00	andyf	technomancy: Ever find out what is going on there?
01:00	technomancy	it is ... a mystery
01:00	rplaca	I think it's a way to inflate follower counts
01:01	technomancy	yeah I need to do some science on the full network
01:01	rplaca	by having accounts that have tweets associated with them that can then follow others
01:01	rplaca	clojure is just a word in their dictionary that pops up from time to time
01:02	technomancy	often in connection to india and outsourcing, oddly enough
01:02	technomancy	which makes me curious about their source text
01:02	rplaca	so the goal is to have tweets that won't be detectable as fraudulant by the bots that try to detect that sort of thing
01:03	technomancy	jokes on them; I'm totally detecting them
01:03	technomancy	I'm not a bot though; I just think it's hilarious
01:03	rplaca	I assume they read from the firehose and put the words together in "likely" but original ways
01:03	rplaca	technomancy: they don't care if you detect them, they just need to live for long enough to inflate the follower counts
01:04	technomancy	oh
01:04	rplaca	celebrities, brands etc. pay for followers
01:04	technomancy	well if I reported them it would kind of ruin my twitter account, so that's no good
01:04	rplaca	this way a service can show the customer that their follower count went up by 10k because of the promotion they did
01:05	andyf	how would it ruin your twitter account by reporting them?
01:05	rplaca	they also need to follow others - you can't have a whole bunch of accounts that are only following one person/brand
01:05	abaranosky	sup foos?
01:06	rplaca	talking about markov twitter follower bots
01:06	technomancy	andyf: well if all my retweets disappeared
01:07	technomancy	rplaca: it is the most likely explanation
01:09	rplaca	alexis madrigal wrote a good article about it here: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/11/why-did-9-000-porny-spambots-descend-on-this-san-diego-high-schooler/281773/
01:58	testclo
01:58	testclo	(defrecord Alert [id amount unit])
01:58	testclo	(def alerts (map (fn[x] (Alert. x (* 2 x) (* 3 x))) (range 1000000)))
01:58	testclo	(count alerts) ==> I found every time I run this, the memory usage (show in jconsole) will bump up ,why? I expected when I first run it, memory usage should bump up as "alerts" is an lazy seq, but when run it more, it shouldn't use more memory,right? I run the command in "lein repl", hope it's not a problem for "lein repl"
02:03	andyf	traversing sequences often requires allocating memory to allocate objects for return values of seq and next.
02:03	andyf	I am not sure if that is what is happening in this case, but it could be.
02:05	andyf	Such new allocated memory would become garbage after the call to count returned, but the next garbage collection will likely not be triggered until you approach the max heap size configured for your JVM
02:09	testclo	If I want to use the lazy seq again and again, will a non lazy counterpart helps for performance ? Ad how to convert lazy one to non-lazy one?
02:12	andyf	I haven't done performance measurements comparing different kinds of things that implement seq for speed. You can convert it to a vector with vec
02:13	allenj12	hey, i wanted to get into web dev with clojure/clojurescript is there any good tutorials or books to start?
02:15	andyf	I only know of one book in that area, discussing server side web dev. Web Development in Clojure http://pragprog.com/book/dswdcloj/web-development-with-clojure
02:16	andyf	ClojureScript only has one relatively short book out on it now, AFAIK, by Stuart Sierra. I don't have any on-line resources to recommend, not because they don't exist, but because I haven't looked.
02:17	allenj12	andyf: cool! ill check out both of those. ill keep looking for online resources to then ty.
02:17	noidi	d
02:18	quizdr	I can't make heads or tales out of the difference between = and == can anyone assist with a concise explanation?
02:18	noidi	is there really no (comp first filter) in the standard library?
02:18	noidi	I seem to need that much more often than `some`
02:19	allenj12	andyf: is this the book you were talking about?
02:19	allenj12	andyf: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025139.do?sortby=publicationDate
02:19	andyf	allenj12: I do recall Mimmo Cosenza announcing a ClojureScript tutorial he wrote and publishes for free: https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
02:20	andyf	allenj12: yes, that is the one I have heard of. I haven't read it myself.
02:21	quizdr	hopefully that book has a lot more meat than the first book they wrote together for Apress
02:24	allenj12	andyf: o wow seems like a great resource ty. ill prolly go through that and buy one of the books
02:24	andyf	allenj12: You are welcome, but thank Mimmo more :)
02:24	allenj12	andyf: haha ok :)
02:38	testclo	If I want to use the lazy seq again and again, will a non lazy counterpart helps for performance ? Ad how to convert lazy one to non-lazy one?
02:39	SegFaultAX	testclo: Lazy seqs will memoize everything that is realized.
02:40	fredyr	quizdr: http://books.google.se/books?id=I8KdEKceCHAC&lpg=PA434&ots=wNmTT7Vba4&dq=clojure%20equality%20semantics&hl=sv&pg=PA434#v=onepage&q=clojure%20equality%20semantics&f=false
02:40	fredyr	ouch what a link
02:49	quizdr	fredyr thanks
02:51	fredyr	sure
02:52	testclo	agent should return immeidately,since it's aync, but why the define of a on an agent took some time
02:52	testclo	(defrecord Alert [id amount unit])
02:52	testclo	(def alerts (map (fn[x] (Alert. x (* 2 x) (* 3 x))) (range 1000000)))
02:52	testclo	(def a (agent (zipmap (map #(.id %1) alerts) (repeat []))))
02:52	testclo	the last line took some time to run
02:58	broquaint	Because the value has to be calculated first.
02:59	andyf	testclo: zipmap is eager, not lazy
03:05	TEttinger	there's no lazy hashmap, just lazy seqs is why, right? that's why zipmap is eager?
03:08	testclo	I want to let the long calcuation be done in another thread, doing something in current thread, then use that value, agent can't do that? need to use promis?
03:09	andyf	Built-in, Clojure has no lazy set, maps, nor vectors
03:10	andyf	I seem to recall hearing about people devising such things, but I haven't looked into them.
03:13	quizdr	can anyone tell me how this little function works? (#(identity %&) 1 "blarg" :yip)
03:13	quizdr	identity cannot take more than one argument, but there is a rest in there
03:14	quizdr	this should equate to (identity 1 "blare" :yip) right?
03:14	fredyr	testclo: a future seems appropriate
03:17	TEttinger	quizdr, %& is actually a single item, a seq
03:18	quizdr	oh, it groups everything together, i see
03:18	TEttinger	exactly
03:19	quizdr	this language is quite interesting. i don't know Scheme, but I know a fair amount of Common Lisp, and Clojure is what I'd kinda assumed Scheme must be like in many ways, with its streamlined structure
03:20	quizdr	seems really elegant, a lot more than common lisp
04:01	jjl`_	quizdr: clojure is closer to scheme, but they're quite different languages. scheme relies heavily on mutable data structures, has the dotted pair type and has a lot less syntax (no [] {} #{} #"" #())
04:02	jjl`_	i'm not sure on RH's argument that having syntax for more datatypes makes things MORE homoiconic. I tend towards the opposite
04:03	quizdr	i got rather used to the parenthesis in lisp and didn't really find it intrusive.
04:03	jjl`_	heh. i've been writing lisp for years and it still bugs me sometimes
04:03	quizdr	i would think you could just have a generic list datatype that if you structured it like a map, you could use map features. but i'm sure they have good reasons for doing it the way they are.
04:04	quizdr	by separating the datatypes
04:05	jjl`_	i can think of several reasons not to do that. top of that list is performance
04:05	jjl`_	of course most lisps don't have maps and you use alists instead
04:06	quizdr	my pleasure of working with a lisp-1 revealed itself quickly over common lisp
04:07	quizdr	and not having so many competing functions for similar tasks also helps, like all the equality stuff in CL
04:07	quizdr	or those awful loop macros
04:07	quizdr	Clojure seems a lot more simplified
04:08	jjl`_	CL is about the most complicated lisp you could find. I generally prefer lisp-1
04:09	quizdr	are Haskell's monads in some conceptual way similar to Clojure's atoms/refs/agents?
04:09	jjl`_	not at all
04:10	quizdr	but they are the way state/impurity is handled, just like the counterparts in Clojure
04:10	jjl`_	haskell does have STM support
04:10	quizdr	i'm referring to matters of state, not concurrency
04:10	jjl`_	you're mixing concepts here
04:11	jjl`_	monads are effectively a hack to force sequencing (not that most avid haskellers would put it that way)
04:11	quizdr	in clojure when you want to handle impure state that can change, you work with it via agents/atoms/refs, while in haskell you can only work with state via a monad. hence my comparison
04:11	jjl`_	not exactly
04:12	quizdr	oh that's fine, i've never used Haskell nor am I likely to, just curious
04:12	jjl`_	that do notation makes it look like you're mutating state, but you're not. the only piece of state that gets mutated is the RealWorld (haskell models "the real world" as a piece of data to keep the illusion of purity alive)
04:13	jjl`_	so everything just threads through purely
04:13	jjl`_	i'd be happy to explain to you in private if you'd like, but this isn't really the channel
04:15	quizdr	no that's alright, tanks
04:17	jjl`_	in any case, the reason monads were introduced was to fix a problem. they're a useful abstraction that isn't required in clojure (clojure is strictly evaluated). You can use them though. There are several monad libraries. They're quite a good abstraction in some cases
04:18	TEttinger	gahhhhhh... does anyone use ztellman's primitive-math lib?
04:19	TEttinger	I have no idea if I'm using it right, but I'm getting a massive amount of warnings
04:19	quizdr	i just saw this code in something, and am wondering what is meaningful about that zero in there: (reduce + 0 (map :size sym-parts))
04:19	TEttinger	it's the initial value, quizdr
04:19	quizdr	I know, but why would that matter in this case?
04:19	quizdr	anything plus 0 is the same thing
04:19	TEttinger	which is 0 for + anyway, correct
04:19	quizdr	leaving out that zero would have no effect on the value of the expression, right
04:20	TEttinger	I believe so. it may have been to make it explicit
04:20	jjl`_	it means you always get a result. what should the return of reduce be if there are no items in the list?
04:20	TEttinger	ah
04:20	quizdr	now that's interesting
04:20	TEttinger	,(reduce + [])
04:20	clojurebot	0
04:20	quizdr	,(range 0
04:20	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
04:20	quizdr	,(range 0)
04:20	clojurebot	()
04:20	TEttinger	you always do anyway, because + defaults to 0 when called with no args
04:20	quizdr	,(reduce + (range 0))
04:20	TEttinger	,(+)
04:20	clojurebot	0
04:20	clojurebot	0
04:21	quizdr	i feel you
04:21	TEttinger	,(*) ; defaults to its identity value or whatever it is, 1
04:21	clojurebot	1
04:21	jjl`_	reduce + is a bit silly. they probably wanted apply
04:22	jjl`_	TEttinger: it's called a 'monoid'
04:22	TEttinger	the identity for + and 0?
04:22	TEttinger	s/0/*
04:23	jjl`_	yes. the 'plus monois' has the identity 0
04:23	quizdr	i have heard from common lisp people that reduce is preferable to apply when it is convenient
04:25	chare	I AM BACK
04:25	chare	no fear
04:26	jjl`_	quizdr: sounds like cargo culting to me
04:26	quizdr	was that cemerick's site that discussed cargo culling recently?
04:29	ddellacosta	quizdr: referring to previous conversation...Haskell is cool, you should give it a shot. It's got a lot of amazing qualities, and really bends your mind, in a meaningful and useful way.
04:30	quizdr	ddellacosta if I had time, i probably would. learning clojure effectively as a hobby is enough for me for now.
04:31	quizdr	I did pick up this book, 7 Languages in 7 Weeks, and Haskell (and Clojure) are two of the languages, so I'll get a bit of exposure to it
04:31	ddellacosta	quizdr: yah, I hear ya. There's always more to learn. Just wanted to give you a nudge when you suggested that you're unlikely to ever touch Haskell. ;-)
04:31	quizdr	but i have heard that it can take a long time to get fluent in Haskell, and that the syntax is a challenge more than most languages
04:32	chare	HASKELL I LOVE YOU
04:32	chare	quizdr LEARN HASKELL FIRST
04:32	ddellacosta	The syntax is pretty simple. The concepts are tough--they are very abstract. But you can get going relatively quickly, especially if you have some Clojure or other lisp under your belt. The biggest challenge for me is wrapping my head around all the higher-level category theory concepts, and learning how to apply them effectively. But you can do a lot of cool stuff even before that point.
04:33	fredyr	meh what up with all the haskell trolls
04:33	fredyr	:)
04:33	ddellacosta	fredyr: ha, I know, I should go hang out in Haskell. ;-) I'm excited about both Haskell and Clojure though, so it's hard to contain.
04:33	quizdr	"category theory" in itself sounds like a daunting term
04:34	ddellacosta	quizdr: Like anything, unfamiliar things are daunting at first.
04:34	quizdr	Haskell is very popular here in Singapore. There is a Fuctional Programming meet up group that meets every month. Last month it was at Google's headquarter's here. But the group might as well be called "Haskell Singapore" as that is the only language they discuss.
04:35	chare	the problem with Haskell is that my friends get scared of the static type system it has
04:36	ddellacosta	Oh, that's too bad. I think Clojure is quite a nice language and worth discussing. I've heard racket and erlang have great qualities too, but haven't dug into either deeply yet.
04:36	ddellacosta	and of course there are many other functional languages out there worth talking about.
04:36	quizdr	erlang is also in this "7 Languages" book
04:37	chare	erlang is the only language I know of where out of the box the virtual machines running on different machines know about each other.
04:37	ddellacosta	alright, back to mucking about with clojure.tools.namespace...
04:37	chare	usually you gotta setup some rpc crap or something
04:46	quizdr	does anyone know where 4clojure is hosted, or what kind of host environment is necessary to host something like that?
04:48	TEttinger	(if (and (< ^long (quot i ^long wide) ^long (dec ^long high)) (> ^long (mod i ^long wide) 0)) (and (not= (aget ^doubles dd (dec (+ i ^long wide))) ^double dark) (= (aget ^doubles dd ^long (dec ^long (+ i ^long wide))) ^double wall)) false)
04:48	TEttinger	someone, anyone
04:48	TEttinger	please tell me this isn't needed
04:48	broquaint	quizdr: You might have better luck on the #4clojure channel, although I think the maintainers won't be online for a bit.
04:49	TEttinger	I can't do a primitive type hint on a def, only at the call site (terminology right?)
04:49	TEttinger	so every time i use the def'd numbers (numbers!) it needs a type hint to avoid a reflective call
04:50	quizdr	broquaint thanks
04:51	quizdr	TEttinger wow
04:51	quizdr	can't imaging that is necessary but i am also stumped
04:51	TEttinger	quizdr, I must be doing something stupid
04:53	quizdr	as an IRC newbie, how does one "lock in" a nick, or is it up for grabs when you leave the room?
04:53	metellus	quizdr: /msg nickserv help
04:54	metellus	you can register your nick
04:55	quizdr	metellus thank you!
04:56	TEttinger	quizdr, indeed I was
04:56	TEttinger	I can def them as (int 33) or whatever
04:57	quizdr	so when you said you cannot do a primitive type hint on a def, actually you can?
04:57	testclo	how to check whether an agent compeleted the action without blocking?
04:58	voldyman	anyone using clojure on ubuntu?
04:58	voldyman	how did you upgrade to 1.5.1? the repo only has 1.4.0
04:59	fredyr	voldyman: leiningen?
05:00	voldyman	fredyr: using leinigen? (i use the latest leiningen from the website)
05:01	voldyman	i can use the latest version in projects but repl from command line is 1.4.0
05:02	voldyman	so lighttable can't find 1.5.1 which it needs to function
05:03	fredyr	ah okay, idk how lighttable does
05:04	TEttinger	quizdr, it isn't actually a type hint I'm doing now. type hints are metadata, this is some kind of different function call
05:04	TEttinger	at least I think type hints are meta
05:06	arcatan	yeah, they are
05:10	quizdr	anyone recommend a good user or two worth following on 4clojure?
05:10	instilled	hi. is anyone using bbatsov's excellent projectile? I'm wondering how to access the current project root from elisp code. anyone knows?
05:14	TEttinger	ok, in two files using ztellman's primitive-math, i get so many warnings i can't even scroll back to read all of them.
05:14	TEttinger	this is why my program is slow I imagine.
05:16	instilled	I've just found it. (projectile-project-root).
05:19	noncom	using nrepl in my own project, i send ns for eval and then I do (response-values res) on the result, however the following error comes up: Could not read response value: #<Namespace user>, so why is that? how do I avoid such errors with nrepl?
05:19	glosoli	what are some good practises when translating text in Enlive templates ?
05:20	quizdr	can anyone recommend how to get clojure autocompletion working inside a .clj file? I get it at the REPL but not in a source file.
05:20	quizdr	oh, i'm talking about emacs
05:22	glosoli	quizdr: http://clojure-android.info/blog/2013/07/21/feature-auto-completion/ might help
05:24	quizdr	glosoli wow clojure on android, cool
05:24	glosoli	quizdr: this covers autocompletion as primary topic
06:05	glosoli	How could one select all nodes in enlive and execute replace-vars on them?
06:21	clgv	is there some library function that retrieves all paths of keys from a nested map?
06:22	clgv	(f {:a {:x 1, :y 2}, :b {:z 3}}) => ([:a :x] [:a :y] [:b :z])
06:24	quizdr	clgv good question indeed
06:24	CookedGryphon	clgv: to arbitrary levels of nesting?
06:26	clgv	yes, arbitrary levels but you can assume that the recursion fits on the stack
06:27	clgv	I'd like to just use such a function for analysis. but if need be I'll write it from scratch
06:32	CookedGryphon	clgv: I feel like it should be possible with tree-seq
06:33	clgv	CookedGryphon: you can get all keys with tree-seq but not construct the paths
06:38	katox	what is the best way to print #inst into str? SimpleDateFormat?
06:39	CookedGryphon	well the #inst representation is standard edn, unambiguous and supported by both the reader and pr-str by default, what's wrong with just leaving it as that?
06:46	glosoli	how one could do recursive replace-vars in enlive?
06:47	CookedGryphon	ugh, why does tap take a chan rather than just returning a new one?
06:49	CookedGryphon	it should be optional at least
07:07	poglesbyg_	Hi all, I'm working on clojure koans and have gotten to destructuring and I'm stuck now.
07:07	poglesbyg_	what should i do here:
07:07	poglesbyg_	(= (str "First comes love, "
07:07	poglesbyg_	"then comes marriage, "
07:07	poglesbyg_	"then comes Clojure with the baby carriage")
07:07	poglesbyg_	((fn [[a b c]] __)
07:07	poglesbyg_	["love" "marriage" "Clojure"]))
07:08	poglesbyg_	sorry that was ugly
07:08	poglesbyg_	http://pastebin.com/Dkac7XF4
07:12	gfredericks	poglesbyg_: you should take a, b, and c and make them look like the string given
07:12	pyrtsa	poglesbyg_: Define the body of a function that receives as its single argument a vector of 3 elements.
07:17	poglesbyg_	that makes sense. thanks gfredericks
07:21	edbond	Can I use clojurescript macros (in clean clj) to read settings from yaml file? I don't see yaml cljs lib.
07:23	edbond	I need to convert yaml to map on cljs compilation stage
07:34	wei__	anyone know how to write a honeysql clause to use Postgres' json operator in a query? json_column->>'json_attribute'
07:34	wei__	as in this example http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10560394/how-do-i-query-using-fields-inside-the-new-postgresql-json-datatype
07:37	john2x	can I use a 'binding' var defined in a macro, in the body of that macro's usage? (i hope that made sense)
07:38	CookedGryphon	if I understand you correctly, yes use ~ to unquote it
07:38	CookedGryphon	pastebin what you're trynig to write?
07:42	clgv	john2x: post a gist with an example how you'd call the macro and to what it should expand
07:43	clgv	elementary rules for asking questions about how to write a specific macro ^^
07:43	john2x	ah, here: https://www.refheap.com/24133 (I got the macro from here http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_Clojure/Macros)
07:43	edbond	wei__, did you try (where [:= "json_col->json_attr" :?baz])
07:45	CookedGryphon	john2x: that looks like it should work, what's the issue?
07:45	clgv	john2x: oh that's error prone. the call to close should be in a finally block
07:46	CookedGryphon	could you actually use with-open with a custom close?
07:46	john2x	CookedGryphon: I'm getting "Unable to resolve var: my.ns/conn in this context"
07:46	john2x	clgv: ah right, i'll fix that.
07:47	CookedGryphon	oh, so you want to use conn from the namespace in which the macro is defined rather than my.ns?
07:47	CookedGryphon	try just fully resolving it
07:47	clgv	CookedGryphon: with-open assumes a certain interface - was it Closable?
07:47	CookedGryphon	clgv: yeah, something like that
07:47	john2x	CookedGryphon: ah yes, the macro and the function are in differnet namespaces
07:47	wei__	edbond: I did try it, but I the resulting sql statement looked something like ["SELECT * FROM tbl INNER JOIN account ON ? = account.id" "tbl.details_json->account_id"]
07:47	clgv	john2x: you need a dynamic var in that namespace, e.g. (def ^:dynamic conn)
07:48	edbond	wei__, can you post code to refheap?
07:48	wei__	sure
07:48	clgv	john2x: in the namespace of the macro definition
07:49	john2x	clgv: ah ok. and I need to require the conn in addition to the macro in the other namespace right?
07:49	john2x	ah it compiled now :)
07:50	clgv	john2x: no you dont need that. the syntax quote resolves conn and uses it fully qualified
07:52	wei__	edbond: https://www.refheap.com/24135 ty
07:52	john2x	clgv: hmm when I remove conn from the require in the other namespace, it can't find conn again.. I've updated the paste https://www.refheap.com/24133
07:53	edbond	wei__, error says you compare char with integer. Can you check type of join columns?
07:54	edbond	wei__, I suppose json results in string ids "42" while account.id is integer 42
07:54	clgv	john2x: that has to work this way. maybe restart the repl
07:55	wei__	perhaps, but in my GUI (navicat) the id appears to be a integer inside the json field
07:55	wei__	gonna try an explicit cast
07:55	clgv	john2x: macros would be unusable if you needed to know their implementation to require the used variables manually ;)
07:55	clgv	s/require/refer/
07:56	clgv	john2x: oh now I see where it is missing. you explicitely use conn in the rdb/run call.
07:57	john2x	clgv: yes :) should it be moved into the macro definition?
07:57	clgv	john2x: so you have the desire to hide conn and to see conn - bad structured that way
07:58	john2x	hmm right.. I guess there's no point not doing rdb/run when using with-connection anyway
07:58	edbond	wei__, try :tbl.details->>account_id, it's valid
07:59	clgv	john2x: I guess rdb/run should use conn internally and not as parameter if it is needed tofit into the macro body
07:59	clgv	john2x: but be careful not to create a frankenstein macro incrementally ;)
07:59	edbond	wei__, nope, sorry. "-" converted to "_"
08:02	edbond	wei__, seems to work when I use sql/raw inside join: (sql/raw "tbl.details->>account_id = account.id")
08:03	john2x	clgv: until the revise team include a with- macro, i'll keep playing with my scissors :P
08:03	john2x	yeah I'll just move the rdb/run call into the macro definition..
08:21	quizdr	when working at the REPL is it possible to do a carriage return without causing evaluation on the entire expression you are editing at the REPL prompt
08:25	amalloy	quizdr: just a plain command-line repl? newline evaluates the expression if it's "done", and otherwise keeps reading till the last )
08:30	matt444	With :keys destructor, can you also keep a reference to the destructed data?
08:30	amalloy	matt444: (let [{:keys [x] :as m} {:x 1}] (list x m))
08:31	noncom	is anyone famiiar with nrepl here?
08:31	matt444	amalloy: yay! thanks
08:32	quizdr	amalloy I'm using REPL in emacs cider; just wondering if it makes sense to continously edit and manipulate functions at the REPL, where you'd have to insert lines, etc
08:32	amalloy	shift-RET
08:32	amalloy	or...wait, no
08:32	amalloy	that's the opposite of what you want. C-j inserts a newline
08:33	amalloy	personally i'd rather edit stuff in my .clj file and just C-M-x it over to the repl, but editing it in the repl is not an unreasonable style
08:35	quizdr	amalloy ah C-j is exactly what I needed
08:36	fredyr	um, isn't there a way to use range to generate the inf seq of 0,0.1,0.2...?
08:37	amalloy	(map #(* 0.1 %) (range)) is what i would do, but if you were really excited about doing it without map...well, i'd worry about rounding errors then
08:38	amalloy	&(take 100 (range 0 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY 0.1))
08:38	lazybot	⇒ (0 0.1 0.2 0.30000000000000004 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 0.7999999999999999 0.8999999999999999 0.9999999999999999 1.0999999999999999 1.2 1.3 1.4000000000000001 1.5000000000000002 1.6000000000000003 1.7000000000000004 1.8000000000000005 1.9000000000000006 2.0000000000000004 2.1... https://www.refheap.com/24142
08:38	fredyr	:)
08:39	fredyr	it was just that i realized that the range arguments didn't allow for step without and end
08:40	amalloy	for that, it's pretty easy to use iterate
08:40	amalloy	(iterate #(+ % 2) 0)
08:41	fredyr	ah nice, that's more like it
08:41	fredyr	thanks
08:45	wei__	edbond: sorry stepped out for a bit. your sql/raw suggestion worked! though I still had to cast the expression to an integer with "CAST(… AS INT)"
08:45	wei__	(inc edbond)
08:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
08:45	wei__	(inc testh1231231)
08:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
08:45	quizdr	what is the difference betwen the lazybot and the clojure bot in here?
08:45	edbond	wei__, nice, thanks. Why do you need to cast? json doesn't recognize integers?
08:46	wei__	I'm not sure, but when I put the expression in the SELECT, as in (-> (s/select (sql/raw …))) it comes back as a string
08:47	edbond	wei__, same postgresql error about casting?
08:49	wei__	no, the error only happens if I use a join. i just wanted to see what type it was by returning the expression in a SELECT
08:49	CookedGryphon	Odlem13
08:49	CookedGryphon	well that's embarrassing
08:50	clgv	quizdr: feature set and clojure version
08:50	edbond	wei__, from http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.3/static/functions-json.html it seems ->> returns text, -> returns object. Maybe you should try that
08:50	clgv	,clojure-version
08:50	hyPiRion	quizdr: clojurebot and lazybot has different jail permissions, runs on different clojure versions, and is administered by different people
08:50	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
08:50	clgv	&clojure-version
08:50	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
08:51	clgv	,(f 1)
08:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: f in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:51	clgv	,(defn f [x] (inc x))
08:51	clojurebot	#'sandbox/f
08:51	clgv	,(f 1)
08:51	clojurebot	2
08:51	clgv	&(defn f [x] (inc x))
08:51	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
08:52	wei__	edbond: interesting. but that results in an error: operator does not exist: json = integer
08:55	quizdr	,(= (mod 10 6) (rem 10 6))
08:56	clojurebot	true
08:56	wei__	apparently -> resolves to the form {:int4 1000}
08:56	quizdr	what is the difference between the mod and rem above?
08:56	john2x	how do I reload a namespace I have in 'used in the repl?
08:57	edbond	wei__, yeah, some weird type 'json'. SELECT pg_typeof('{"a":1,"b":2}'::json->'b');
08:57	clgv	,(map #(= (mod %1 6) (rem %2 6)) (range -5 5))
08:57	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval143/fn--144>
08:57	clgv	,(map #(= (mod % 6) (rem % 6)) (range -5 5))
08:57	clojurebot	(false false false false false ...)
08:57	clgv	,(mapv #(= (mod % 6) (rem % 6)) (range -5 5))
08:57	clojurebot	[false false false false false ...]
08:57	clgv	,(mapv #(= (mod % 6) (rem % 6)) (range -2 2))
08:57	clojurebot	[false false true true]
08:58	wei__	although it the query result shows up as a numeric type in the repl
08:59	quizdr	clgv so the behavior varies only with negative numbers
08:59	wei__	the cast is acceptable for me.. it's just a bit hacky
09:00	clgv	quizdr: yes
09:00	clgv	,(mapv #(vector (mod % 6) (rem % 6)) (range -1 2))
09:00	clojurebot	[[5 -1] [0 0] [1 1]]
09:01	edbond	wei__, cast is used here too: http://clarkdave.net/2013/06/what-can-you-do-with-postgresql-and-json/
09:01	fredyr	is there some significant difference between #([% (f %)]) and (fn [x] [x (f x)])? when i used it in a map the reader macro version fails but the other works
09:04	fredyr	oh
09:04	fredyr	it expands a bit weird
09:05	fredyr	(fn* [p1__303#] ([p1__303# (f p1__303#)]))
09:05	fredyr	:S
09:05	lumafi	in the first one, you're calling the vector as a function
09:05	stuartsierra	Remember, #(%) expands to (fn [x] (x)) not (fn [x] x)
09:06	fredyr	yeah i realize that now, but wasn't something i've encountered before
09:08	fredyr	or rather, i have used it as a feature before w/o realized it
09:08	fredyr	:)
09:08	clgv	fredyr: you can simply use the vector function instead of writing the literal
09:09	fredyr	clgv: not really sure how you mean
09:09	quizdr	stuartsierra are you saying the % explands to (%) or only the entire expression
09:09	stuartsierra	the entire expression
09:10	stuartsierra	#(blah) expands to (fn [] (blah)) not (fn [] blah)
09:10	clgv	fredyr: #(vector % (f %))
09:10	quizdr	right because normally blah would be a function call and thus require parenthesis
09:10	fredyr	clgv: ah
09:11	noncom	anyone familiar with nrepl
09:11	clgv	fredyr: that's usually the trick when you have a literal there ;)
09:11	noncom	?
09:12	minnow	help can someone help me to become illiterate?
09:13	Gonzih	minnow: what?
09:15	minnow	what i dont understand
09:28	fredyr	minnow: do you have a problem you want help with?
09:28	minnow	yes i wannt to become illiterate
09:29	fredyr	im sorry but it would seem that you are close
09:30	minnow	what i dont understand you foul moron!
09:31	locks	what's happening in here.
09:33	minnow	you foolish cretin
09:35	danneu	What caching strategy comes ot mind with a forum that renders Markdown/BBCode to HTML on the fly?
09:37	minnow	urine and feces
09:37	minnow	danneu you foul child rapist
09:38	mdrogalis	This is a pretty interesting choice of channel to troll lol
09:38	danneu	oh man, indiana jokes over here
09:40	minnow	my feces are pillaging your home
09:41	locks	maybe it's the first IRC bot someone wrote in clojure
09:41	quizdr	i am excited about having discovered the IRC command called "ignore" it is perfect for some of these guys
09:41	pjstadig	sigh who else is an op besides technomancy?
09:41	kzar	quizdr: Yea it makes the problem go away
09:41	fredyr	danneu: you might want to see what kind of caching strats that discourse implement perhaps?
09:42	quizdr	done. into the void
09:42	locks	fredyr: discourse renders client-side though
09:42	fredyr	locks: oh good catch
09:43	fredyr	locks: so client rendering is the strategy then :)
09:43	locks	I guess so! :P
09:44	minnow	feces are edible and delicious
09:44	minnow	innocent children deserve to be beaten to death
09:44	nmeum	…
09:50	AeroNotix	What are the options with coverage reports? I'm using lein-cloverage now, but there are other tools I want to integrate with such as cobertura w/ jenkins
09:51	arrdem	pjstadig: nobody routinely active
09:51	arrdem	pjstadig: /ignore is your friend, and sadly ignoring trolls is more official chan policy than kicking them.
09:53	mdrogalis	First Clojure IRC troll bot.. lol
09:54	minnow	urine is delicious and healthy because its natural
09:54	pjstadig	i nominate myself as an additional op
09:54	pjstadig	ignore is fine, but we should have ops around
09:54	minnow	you foul horse rapist
09:54	arrdem	wink: that's actually one of the projects on my todo list...
09:54	arrdem	pjstadig: I totally agree
09:55	wink	not everything from game servers is bad :P
09:55	pjstadig	if 51% of people in the channel have you on ignore you should get autokicked
09:55	arrdem	pjstadig: if we're gonna give a bot kick power the kick constraint has to be pretty hard to game
09:56	arrdem	pjstadig: the original idea was to use my and gtrak's cloutjure (community karma) project as the basis for this
09:56	arrdem	pjstadig: because a simple voting majority would be vulnerable to a chan invasion.
09:56	CookedGryphon	or 66% of the users who've posted a message in the last x minutes (in case you have a lot of people afk)
09:56	arrdem	CookedGryphon: even more invasion vulnerable
09:57	CookedGryphon	arrdem: true
09:57	CookedGryphon	arrdem: perhaps you need to have been in the channel a long time, ideally contributing, to add weight to your vote?
09:57	arrdem	I really wanted to use lazybot karma, because it's an exceedingly good representation of how active and valuable someone is here...
09:58	arrdem	but sadly an attacker could just (inc) themselves forever in a sidechannel :/
09:58	CookedGryphon	perhaps just look at regular visitors, people who get into conversations
09:58	clgv	arrdem: no that wont work, you can try
09:58	amalloy	arrdem: karma is per-channel
09:59	arrdem	amalloy: oh right...
09:59	CookedGryphon	heck you could do something neat but complex like work out who's talking to who and infer from that who's participating
09:59	arrdem	could totally work then!
09:59	minnow	YOUR CHILDREN ARE HOMOSEXUAL
09:59	CookedGryphon	assuming people won't engage trolls in conversation
09:59	wink	arrdem: that's a quite unique perspective on "sidechannel attack". with an actual channel. on irc :)
09:59	arrdem	minnow: welcome to my fools list
09:59	minnow	GAY STUD AND LESBIAN SLUT
09:59	arrdem	CookedGryphon: the issue is that this isn't the case..
10:00	arrdem	CookedGryphon: we're a helpful channel overall, and bitemyapp and I have a bad habbit of counter-trolling
10:00	arrdem	CookedGryphon: having a ~votekick would be glorious
10:00	minnow	FECES
10:00	arrdem	amalloy: if I slap together a lazybot PR will you take it?
10:00	Sorella	...seriously
10:01	amalloy	no, and nobody would ever give lazybot ops even if i did
10:01	arrdem	kay
10:01	minnow	GAY RAPE WITH AN APE
10:01	arrdem	whelp, that's all I can do about this...
10:02	clgv	amalloy: yeah you are right it would go to his head ;)
10:03	amalloy	clojurebot: my ultimate goal \|is\| world domination
10:03	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
10:03	amalloy	a little treat for the future, since we're on the topic of bots getting big ideas
10:04	clgv	you should have exluded "my" ;)
10:04	clgv	then he would respond on the question what his ultimate goal is ;)
10:07	AimHere	clojurebot: Gee, clojurebot, what do you want to do tonight?
10:07	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
10:08	tutysara	trying out authentication with friend following examples from - https://github.com/ddellacosta/friend-oauth2
10:09	tutysara	had setup github auth to redirect to http://localhost:3000/repos where the application is running after authentication
10:11	tutysara	but after authentication it always redirects to / and I can see only the contents of "/" and no repo details is getting displayed
10:11	peterdon	,(print "minnow: how are you?")
10:11	clojurebot	minnow: how are you?
10:15	tutysara	any hints on configuring friend for github outh authentication
10:17	sritchie	tutysara: I found the oauth flow to be pretty confusing -
10:17	sritchie	you can get into infinite redirects
10:17	sritchie	tutysara: are you looking to log in with github?
10:17	sritchie	tutysara: or just link an acct
10:21	tutysara	sritchie: yes, looking for logging in using github credentials
10:21	tutysara	following the example at - https://github.com/ddellacosta/friend-oauth2-examples/blob/master/src/friend_oauth2_examples/github_handler.clj
10:21	sritchie	I can give a little intuition on how that stuff works -
10:22	sritchie	I've got a rough draft of a post on it, trying to finish it up today
10:22	sritchie	tutysara: are the workflows blowing your mind? I found them pretty confusing
10:22	tutysara	I am new to this, so, I thought it is just for me ;)
10:23	sritchie	haha, nope
10:23	sritchie	it's tough
10:23	sritchie	okay, here's how that stuff works.
10:23	sritchie	every request that comes in gets passed through all of your workflows
10:23	ddellacosta	nope. :-)
10:23	sritchie	ddellacosta: btw, I got into an infinite redirect situation when my oauth req failed -
10:23	sritchie	haven't filed a bug yet, but wanted to let you know
10:23	sritchie	tutysara: so each req goes through the workflows, and each workflow can return 1 of three things
10:24	sritchie	1) workflow returns nil - this means that the workflow has nothing to say either way about the request
10:24	sritchie	2) the workflow returns a friend authentication map
10:25	sritchie	just a map with a few special keys (friend checks if certain keys exist, :user, etc, I think?), and if those exist, friend says "great, it's an auth map. Log the user in and call the :authenticated-handler"
10:25	sritchie	3) the workflow can return a map that's NOT an auth map; this is interpreted as a "failure"
10:25	sritchie	specifically friend thinks its a ring response, and returns it to the user
10:25	sritchie	tutysara: making sense so far?
10:26	tutysara	yes
10:26	sritchie	tutysara: ddellacosta, correct me if I'm wrong, but to do the oauth handshake, that workflow actually watches for two routes -
10:26	sritchie	first, if you send in a request to the oauth path (/oauth/github, for example),
10:26	sritchie	the oauth workflow catches it and returns a ring response - a redirect to the oauth provider
10:26	sritchie	tutysara: so it's sort of piggybacking on the failure thing
10:27	tutysara	sritchie: the third thing is for redirecting to the provider like(github) when the user is not already authenticated?
10:27	sritchie	tutysara: yeah, exactly
10:27	ddellacosta	yeah, the oauth2 workflow has to catch whether or not it's an authorization that requires oauth2 authentication, and otherwise it's catching the callback from the provider
10:27	sritchie	the interactive-form workflow just returns a failure;
10:27	sritchie	then, once the oauth provider redirects, the workflow ALSO catches that request (say, /oauth/github/callback, though I think the actual scheme is diff)
10:28	sritchie	tutysara: and at that point it has all it needs to talk to the oauth provider and get the token.
10:28	otfrom	sritchie: really looking forward to your post
10:28	sritchie	otfrom: I'll finish it today :) got it almost done on the plane, then have been setting up electric bills etc
10:29	sritchie	tutysara: so the first response is a redirect, the the oauth workflow catches the response from teh provider, and the second workflow response is one of friend-auth-map or failure-response
10:29	ddellacosta	sritchie: that redirect is definitely a problem, if you can file an issue that'd be most helpful. Also, finally remembered to respond to your last issue...sorry again for the long wait!
10:29	sritchie	ddellacosta: no worries
10:29	zerokarmaleft	ddellacosta: one thing I'm not clear on is where to hook into the workflow to do something after the callback
10:29	otfrom	sritchie: thx :-D
10:29	sritchie	zerokarmaleft: I think you set the :authenticated-handler for that workflow
10:30	sritchie	and it'll call that if the oauth negotiation works out
10:30	sritchie	(you can override the handlers on a workflow-specific basis)
10:30	ddellacosta	zerokarmaleft: that is a relatively new thing--check out the credential-fn under #5 here: https://github.com/ddellacosta/friend-oauth2
10:31	zerokarmaleft	sritchie, ddellacosta: oh nice
10:31	cark	hello
10:31	ddellacosta	sritchie: is authenticated-handler part of friend that I'm missing, or were you thinking of the credential-fn ?
10:32	ddellacosta	sritchie: it would make sense if there was a generic way that friend handled this. Been a little while since I've dug into it though, so I'm not sure what is there.
10:32	sritchie	oh, yeah, I just made it up
10:32	sritchie	whoops
10:32	tutysara	sritchie: once the request is authenticated and token is received from provider (github )will it redirect to the original url which triggered the authentication request?
10:32	sritchie	yeah, what happens is it usually redirects to the URL that triggered (like you just said),
10:33	sritchie	or to the :default-landing-uri
10:33	cark	in core.async is there a function like monadic mseq ? taking a sequence of channels and returning a channel with a sequence of the returned values of channels ? [Chan a] -> (Chan [a])
10:33	ddellacosta	ah, okay.
10:33	sritchie	cark: merge, I think
10:33	sritchie	(a/merge [chan1 chan2]) => channel
10:33	cark	sritchie: looks like it, thanks !
10:34	tutysara	ddellacosta: but in my case it redirects to / instead of /repos
10:34	tutysara	any guess on what could be wrong?
10:35	Guest71754	k;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
10:35	zerokarmaleft	ddellacosta: #5...you mean #11?
10:35	ddellacosta	tutysara: unfortunately I really gotta get to bed--but I'm happy to take a deeper look tomorrow if you want to email me (or if sritchie can't help you out)--it's my handle at gmail.com
10:35	sritchie	ddellacosta: what time zone?
10:35	sritchie	please don't say PST :)
10:35	ddellacosta	zerokarmaleft: I meant #5 in the list under "Configuring your handler."
10:35	sw1nn	dnolen: om question - is it valid to have multi-root om, where the render function differ in each root. We have a nav component that renders menus etc. and a table component that renders the page content, we update the app state via ajax callbacks to various services. The atom updates but only one of the (re)renders occurs. Code snippet here: https://gist.github.com/sw1nn/8456868
10:35	fredyr	locks: danneu: out of curiosity i had a look at discourse's forum posts, they are pre-baking html and storing it in the database together w/ the raw version
10:36	ddellacosta	sritchie: no, haha, I'm in Japan. :-)
10:36	tutysara	sritchie: ddellacosta : I printed the session and i can see the access_token in session
10:36	sritchie	haha, okay, good
10:36	tutysara	ddellacosta: thanks
10:36	ddellacosta	tutysara: yeah, drop me a line!
10:36	ddellacosta	'night folks
10:36	locks	fredyr: that's for SEO, iirc, right?
10:37	zerokarmaleft	ddellacosta: ok, I was looking at issues...thanks
10:37	locks	fredyr: to stick in the <noscript> for the bots to have something to parse
10:38	tutysara	sritchie: good to know you are working on a blog post on this, will have a look and will have a stab at this again
10:38	fredyr	locks: i could be wrong, but from what i can tell the cooked html is the only thing served in the json to the client
10:39	locks	hm
10:39	zerokarmaleft	the inconsistency of oauth2 providers is so irritating
10:40	wkelly	technomancy: innodb stores your data consistently and safely and still wins at benchmarks
10:40	dnolen	sw1nn: this is with 1.7? I though I tested that.
10:41	sw1nn	yep, with 0.1.7
10:41	sw1nn	dnolen: your multi-root example has the state and render func the same.
10:42	mrhanky	how can i check if a map contains a value?
10:42	fredyr	locks: http://try.discourse.org/t/15.json
10:42	dnolen	sw1nn: the app state in your example is the same too
10:43	cark	sritchie: actually no, but almost there merge puts all items in the collection onto a channel, still need to iterate to get the items in a collection
10:43	locks	fredyr: interesting
10:43	sw1nn	dnolen: but the render fn is different. I added my own watch to the atom and I see the expected updates, but only one of the updates causes a render
10:43	cark	sritchie: which into seems to be doing
10:44	dnolen	sw1nn: yeah render fn doesn't really matter
10:44	sritchie	cark: gotcha
10:44	dnolen	sw1nn: put together a minimal example please, open an issue and I will look into
10:45	otfrom	dnolen: thx
10:47	SparkySparkyBoom	is it possible to add jars to a leiningen project?
10:49	arrdem	SparkySparkyBoom: typically what you will do is add them to your ~.m2
10:49	arrdem	SparkySparkyBoom: then you can just add them as normal lein deps
10:52	noncom	is anyone familiar with using nrepl in his projet?
10:55	itruslove	noncom: assume so, and go ahead and ask your follow-on question
10:55	noncom	cool!
10:55	noncom	using nrepl in my own project, i send ns for eval and then I do (response-values res) on the result, however the following error comes up: Could not read response value: #<Namespace user>, so why is that? how do I avoid such errors with nrepl?
10:56	CookedGryphon	Haven't used the api you're talking about, but it sounds like your response has already been processed
10:56	CookedGryphon	as ns will in a new repl return you the namespace user
10:56	CookedGryphon	what happens if you send (+ 4 4) for eval?
10:57	CookedGryphon	do you get 8 back without having to do anything further?
10:57	noncom	but that is the recommended way of using nrepl client, straight from the manual. if i send any other operation like (+ 4 4), the result is correct, 8 in this case
10:59	CookedGryphon	interesting.
10:59	CookedGryphon	,(read-string "#<Namespace user>")
10:59	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unreadable form>
11:00	CookedGryphon	I wonder if that's anything to do with it?
11:03	danneu	fredyr: Thanks for giving me the overview.
11:03	clgv	CookedGryphon: probably since some serialization is done. I guess serialization to text
11:04	clgv	CookedGryphon: other nrepl clients (e.g. the one in leiningen) probably have a workaround for that
11:06	CookedGryphon	okay, so the default printer dispatches anything with a #<> to UnreadableReader
11:06	danneu	I think noir.util.cache could be greatly improved by letting you name cache "partitions". That way you can use (cache/set-timeout! <partition1> 30) and (cache/set-size! <partition2> 10000)
11:07	CookedGryphon	i think, because it isn't a value you can meaningfully use on the other end perhaps? like a local function reference as opposed to a value
11:07	CookedGryphon	so you catch it and just output the string instead for feedback
11:07	CookedGryphon	but can't capture the actual value to use on the remote end
11:08	CookedGryphon	noncom: that explanation would make sense to me, perhaps you want to just output the string rather than trying to "read" it
11:12	mercwithamouth	can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong here? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f7c0d9f7bd90e849fa8c
11:13	otfrom	dnolen: sw1nn got caught out by the infamous Bodil clojurex bug
11:13	danneu	fredyr: I wonder what their reasoning is for storing html in the database. I would think it'd be simpler to serialize html to disk with a cache on top
11:14	otfrom	ow! quit it sw1nn! ;-)
11:15	sw1nn	dnolen: so I had upgraded to 0.1.7, but I still had old stuff in target. my bad, sorry for wasting time.
11:15	otfrom	that's the Bodil bug
11:16	dnolen	sw1nn: ok cool
11:16	dnolen	sw1nn: yeah you just always have to clean if you change library versions because of caching
11:16	dnolen	sw1nn: easy to forget and has bitten me a few times
11:16	dnolen	sw1nn: glad hear that was it, didn't see anything obvious in the code
11:34	danneu	Datomic question: I have a forum (Topic/Posts) where private-messaging will be implemented almost exactly like the Topic/Posts paradigm except the sender specifies all of the "allowed participants" upfront. Would the Datomic Way be to reuse my Topic/Posts machinery and just add a :topic/participants attribute, the presence of it used to check (private-convo? topic)?
11:38	mercwithamouth	danneu: do you still have your forum code public by chance? i think you linked me a while ago
11:40	danneu	mercwithamouth: yeah (https://github.com/danneu/clj-forum). but i wouldn't take any tips from it.
11:41	danneu	it's come a long way since then but i ended up coupling my production app with the source code and never got to extract anything out to the repo
11:47	fredyr	danneu: sure np
11:47	fredyr	danneu: i don't really know why they store html in the db, but one thing i did see was that they do server side rendering of the page as well as client side
11:47	fredyr	danneu: which prolly is because of seo
11:48	fredyr	danneu: and to get a page up before all js is loaded
11:48	piranha	dnolen: I'm not sure I should directly bother you, probably I should just write a mail, but maybe you can quickly understand what's going on (since you're the one close to both om and core.async :). I have a channel here: https://github.com/piranha/locations/blob/master/src/locations/core.cljs#L47-L51 and I send messages to this channel here: https://github.com/piranha/locations/blob/master/src/locations/views.cljs#L12 and when after first mess
11:48	piranha	age it stops delivering them...
11:48	dnolen	piranha: sounds like a deadlock
11:48	piranha	dnolen: how does it happen or how do I diagnose that? :)
11:49	piranha	or how do I prevent it? :)
11:49	piranha	dnolen: I mean it's running in a go block, and I just do my put!s, I don't do anything strange there...
11:50	gfredericks	I thought input/output-streams dealt with bytes while readers/writers dealt with characters
11:50	dnolen	piranha: are you absolutely positive that's the right channel being written
11:50	gfredericks	then I looked at the Reader interface and it reads stuff as ints instead of chars; am I crazy?
11:50	dnolen	piranha: as in you're not accidentally constructing a new one and putting it into the wrong thing?
11:50	piranha	dnolen: yeah, I create only one channel and pass it to the children then
11:50	grncdr	does anybody know of a simple way to jsperf compare two different cljs data structures?
11:51	grncdr	or another way of phrasing it: is compiled version of mori hosted publically somewhere?
11:51	dnolen	piranha: yep I see you're problem, you think you are making one channel, you are making many
11:52	dnolen	piranha: you need to create the channel in will-mount and set-state
11:52	piranha	oh...
11:52	dnolen	piranha: you don't want to create a let binding around the Om component because that fn will be called again and again
11:52	piranha	dnolen: this 'root' fn is called multiple times?
11:52	piranha	oh
11:52	piranha	I didn't realize that
11:52	dnolen	piranha: all component fns are called many times
11:52	piranha	why didn't I put print there :\
11:52	piranha	ok sorry thanks!
11:53	dnolen	piranha: this isn't really different from React
11:53	piranha	that's embarrassing :)
11:53	dnolen	piranha: but it's difficult to make the same mistake there
11:53	piranha	dnolen: true, but it looks sufficiently different :-))
11:53	piranha	that I didn't realize that
11:53	piranha	I thought the result of calling this function is reused
11:53	dnolen	piranha: yes that's what I mean. Om looks different, so easy to make that mistake
11:53	dnolen	piranha: I've done it myself.
11:53	piranha	indeed...
11:54	piranha	hah :)
11:54	piranha	ah I understand why!
11:54	piranha	om/build is called in render
11:54	piranha	that's obvious in a hindsight
11:54	dnolen	piranha: yep
11:54	piranha	I wonder if it should be written with a big letters somewhere :)
11:55	dnolen	piranha: it's related to this issue as well https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/45
11:56	piranha	dnolen: yeah, actually those props passed were what convinced me this function is not called multiple times...
11:56	piranha	I thought you've resolved the conceptual problem I had with pump :P
11:57	piranha	;)
11:57	dnolen	piranha: it's definitely something to ponder quite a bit more
11:57	piranha	true...
11:58	noncom	CookedGryphon: sorry, dinner time was here. so ok, that explains why, but what to do with it? how do i properly hand the incoming stream then?
11:58	piranha	dnolen: one of biggest concerns in pump were those functions you supply as control callbacks to children components; I was thinking if I should put them in state because I was just recreating them all the time. And now you tell me to put my control channel in state. Well... :-))
11:59	dnolen	piranha: I actually think controls channels do belong in state or outside the render tree completely.
11:59	CookedGryphon	noncom: well it depends what you want to do with it
12:00	CookedGryphon	noncom: if you're just displaying it to the user, do that
12:00	noncom	btw, guys, is there any tutorial or example on an architecture of a big UI with core.async yet? I mean, not just a couple of elements or a simple website, but a full-scale UI, like in Eclipse IDE, MSWord or OpenOffice, I mean that grade of complexity
12:00	CookedGryphon	noncom: if it's something you can't handle because it's a reference to something on the remote end... what were you going to do with it?
12:01	piranha	dnolen: I don't really want to put them outside of the tree since you should be able to make few instances of the component without them getting stuck; putting them in state makes sense of course, since doing react-style 'methods on a component' is not really a nice option in cljs anyway
12:01	noncom	CookedGryphon: yes I think that displaying is what I want for now. So I just manually parse the incoming map and determine what's there, right?
12:02	dnolen	noncom: I think it's a bit too early for that don't you? But FWI I think systems built on React can scale to that level.
12:02	piranha	dnolen: though having this channel in let is certainly nicer than putting it in state/getting from state, looks a bit awkward to me... I really wanted to get will-mount as a parent function to a render (so you could access it from a closure), but didn't invent a good way to do that ;)
12:02	CookedGryphon	noncom: yeah, I imagine the value is passed to you as just a string and the function you were using reads that string
12:03	piranha	(mostly because render is invoked before will-mount :P)
12:03	dnolen	piranha: that's an interesting idea, but component local state doesn't really bother me much in React
12:03	piranha	if only react had something like 'instantiated!'
12:03	piranha	s/!'/'!/ :)
12:04	dnolen	piranha: since you can always observe transitions, this what is most obnoxious about traditional imperative programing
12:04	dnolen	you can't detect a state transition
12:04	piranha	dnolen: yeah, it doesn't bother me conceptually, just syntactically
12:04	dnolen	piranha: right, it's not as pretty, I agree there
12:05	piranha	dnolen: what do you think about render having [this props state] signature?
12:05	piranha	you could do then (render [this props {:keys [control-channel]} ....) then
12:05	dnolen	piranha: definitely worth thinking about.
12:05	dnolen	piranha: go ahead and add that comment to the issue I linked to above.
12:05	piranha	at least that's the render's signature in pump and it was quite usable IMO
12:06	piranha	sure! :)
12:13	piranha	dnolen: do I understand correctly that https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/58 is related to LightTable? :)
12:15	noncom	CookedGryphon: ok, cool! I'll try, thanks
12:19	noncom	dnolen: well, I thought maybe some experiment was already done... I also could not find similar examples for CSP in any language.. probaly not so known land yet... did not try react, but I think that core.async must scale just as well.
12:20	noncom	I am more interested in how to framework the solution since big uis will require all goodness that OOP gives. and it is hard to imagine how to do it without. I thought maybe some clever people had opinions on that..
12:20	noncom	it is just that's the task I am currently working on
12:21	noncom	for now I have decided that I can't manage it with core.async alone and I need OOP too, while using core.async for messaging
12:26	piranha	noncom: do you plan on writing all dom-interfacing code yourself? Or reuse any existing solutions? Since in second case I would recommend trying React, it's been working exceptionally well for me (and I can compare it to angular and backbone having used them quite a bit in practice)
12:29	noncom	piranha: you're saying of js, but i am doing the jvm thing :) but soon i will have to do js too, i will listen to what you say and look at them!
12:29	piranha	ah sorry :-)
12:29	piranha	didn't realize that
12:53	SparkySparkyBoom	arrdem, thank you for the help
12:53	SparkySparkyBoom	and sorry about the late reply
12:53	grncdr	hm, so apparently using a vectors as keys in CLJS hashmaps is significantly slower than using strings
13:06	arrdem	SparkySparkyBoom: no worries, glad to hear I was helpful.
13:28	tbaldridge	noncom: Pedestal has a good way of doing UIs without OOP imo.
13:30	kristof	There's also Om, if we're talking about web interfaces
13:31	tbaldridge	"of doing JVM UIs without OOP"
13:32	kristof	Ooooh, JVM, didn't see that
13:35	dacc	hello channel
13:37	noncom	dacc: welcome!
13:37	noncom	tbaldridge: ah, didn't look at it yet, so one more on my list, thanks :)
13:38	piranha	dnolen: you don't yet accept pull requests yet, right?
13:39	piranha	to om I mean
13:39	dacc	noncom: thanks, recent convert =)
13:40	tbaldridge	dacc: from?
13:41	dacc	scala i suppose. i write python for a living, but have been doing my side projects in scala until recently.
13:41	mdrogalis	Bagged another one.
13:42	dacc	was trying to eliminate some boiler plate using the type system and shapeless the other day, and finally threw up my hands =)
13:48	cark	ChongLi: ping ?
13:49	tbaldridge	dacc: cool, I used to do Python myself.
13:57	hyPiRion	tbaldridge: and then you implemented Clojure in it? =)
13:58	mdrogalis	lol
14:07	tgkokk	hyPiRion: actually, Lisp has been kinda implemented in Python :)
14:07	tgkokk	https://github.com/hylang/hy
15:03	akurilin	Is it fair to say that manually forcing (flush) in general is bad for perf since you're waiting for the buffer to be flushed to disk?
15:04	akurilin	I do this about once per incoming HTTP request in my Ring app
15:04	tpope	gtrak: yo I'm implementing clojurescript support for vim and was told I should talk to you
15:05	gtrak	tpope: what is up sir?
15:05	gtrak	I'm playing around with autocomplete support lately, next step is an nrepl middleware.
15:06	tpope	gtrak: ooh nice. I was particularly curious about jump to definition functionality
15:06	gtrak	ah, yea, I'd like to know how to do that as well, on the analyzer side there's file and line information.
15:06	gtrak	lemme see if I can find you an example
15:08	gtrak	cljs-complete has a dump and test cases if you want to play with it.
15:08	tpope	cool I'll have a look
15:10	tpope	I'm not quite at a point where I can hook it up, but my end goal is just to use the same middlewares you're using
15:11	gtrak	tpope: here you go: https://gist.github.com/gtrak/8462476
15:11	gtrak	I'm still thinking about how to hook into piggieback and such.
15:11	gtrak	but that's where code gets evaluated.
15:12	gtrak	the analyzer state is just the end result of whatever happens to invoke the compiler
15:12	justin_smith	akurilin: well, you could put the flush in an agent or future, right? unless nothing else should be done at all until after the flushing
15:13	piranha	any ideas on how to wrap js promises with core.async channels so that they will be nicer to you? By 'ideas' I mean API, can't decide if I should return two channels (success/error) or what... Or should I just stick to promises and be happy as it is?..
15:13	tpope	cool thanks. it'll be a little bit before I can circle back to digesting this
15:13	piranha	really need input from the side :)
15:14	gtrak	tpope: np, if you make any headway there, I'll want to reuse it for emacs.
15:14	gtrak	so I'll touch base with you if I get there first.
15:14	tpope	yep, right back at ya
15:15	cark	piranha: i have a homebrew Maybe implementation, and return the result wrapped inside it (just result) or (error "some text explaining it") inside a single chan
15:15	gtrak	tpope: this is what's driving my design at the moment: https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback/issues/22
15:15	piranha	cark: could you show it to me please? :)
15:16	cark	do you mean the maybe "type" ?
15:18	piranha	cark: yep, not exactly sure how do you implement that... records? I didn't work with records/types/etc much to be honest.
15:18	cark	piranha: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8462610
15:18	cark	that's bare bones, but i can attest it works =)
15:19	gtrak	tpope: if it's possible for that stuff to be an nrepl middleware, that seems cleanest based on what I know so far, not sure how it's implemented for nrepl on emacs on clojure.
15:20	piranha	cark: thanks :)
15:20	cark	=)
15:20	gtrak	tpope: another possibility is that maybe eval in a cljs repl works to get that info.
15:21	tpope	gtrak: yeah, the middleware would definitely be cleaner
15:21	tpope	I do plenty of string eval for clojure and I hate to extend that pattern to clojurescript
15:21	tpope	(but I will if I have to)
15:24	gtrak	tpope: it would be hard to keep things in sync, since anything that's eval'd would have to be reinvented for every IDE times how many clj impls they target. If there's an opportunity to standardize on an nrepl op, that seems way better.
15:25	gtrak	so for the autocomplete, I'm just ripping off whatever ritz did unless I notice it lacking in something.
15:25	tpope	right
15:32	poglesbyg_	does anyone know how to install packages in emacs live?
15:33	tpope	gtrak: regarding completion itself, one thing my eval solution has that ritz doesn't is metadata like arglists that I can show to the user. any thoughts on that?
15:34	gtrak	tpope: I think the keys in the analysis tend to line up with var metadata in the clojure impl, for display it wouldn't matter too much if I just sent them back.
15:34	tpope	gtrak: right. my only point was that if you copy the ritz nrepl complete op, there's no place to send it back
15:35	tpope	it just sends a list of symbols
15:36	gtrak	yea, currently that's the output of the intended usage of cljs-complete as well. Would you want all that data at once? Not sure how hard it is to do maps in elisp :-). If it's too hard, it might be worth creating another op, whatever returns file-and-line could also return everything.
15:38	dnolen	piranha: no pull requests yet but feel free to open issues and I will address
15:38	tpope	not sure how much "all that" is but my current eval solution sends back name, arglists, and doc and it's never been too much to handle
15:38	dnolen	piranha: 58 is about any interactive usage of Om really, but sure working in Light Table is nice :)
15:38	tpope	doc seemed cool but I haven't found it super helpful in practice. I mainly like arglists
15:38	piranha	dnolen: sure, I just implemented props/state in render for myself and then was about to open pull request but remembered your policy ;)
15:39	dnolen	piranha: my only concern about props/state is whether that should be separate protocol
15:39	dnolen	piranha: as to not burden stateless components
15:39	dnolen	IRenderState or some such
15:39	gtrak	tpope: sending maps back instead of strings is more future-proof potentially, I'll experiment with it, maybe there's something like an accept header in nrepl :-).
15:39	piranha	ah...
15:40	tpope	gtrak: technomancy was exploring that possiblity with nrepl-discover
15:40	piranha	dnolen: it seems to me that you'll create most of such components using 'component' macro, so it's not very important...
15:41	gtrak	tpope: well, I'm definitely interested in unifying some existing solutions along the way.
15:41	dnolen	piranha: this is probably true too, just need to ponder it a bit more
15:41	dnolen	piranha: I'd like to get these kinds of decisions solidified for 0.2.0
15:42	piranha	dnolen: anyway, if you want to look at what I did: https://github.com/piranha/om/commit/9406b7c73ec6ba2d4587ac1c8c5b870c474d970b
15:42	dnolen	piranha: yeah looks like what I would do :)
15:42	piranha	:-)
15:43	gtrak	tpope: also, you should note that I removed some data from the dump, otherwise it's too massive to save to a file on disk, so we should select-keys explicitly if you make a var-info op or something like that.
15:44	gtrak	all the AST stuff isn't needed.
15:45	gtrak	specifically it was :env and the :method-params
15:46	tpope	makes sense. would the clojure version basically be (meta (resolve (symbol var)))?
15:47	gtrak	looks right, I haven't double-checked all the keys.
15:47	tpope	:file, :line, and :doc are generally the main ones I would care about
15:47	tpope	and they look the same
15:48	gtrak	yea
15:48	tpope	I guess :arglists
15:48	tpope	which might require some care for nrepl serialization
15:50	technomancy	yes please, more accept headers =)
15:54	gtrak	by the time we're done, we'll have reinvented the internet around clojure.
15:58	kristof	I sure hope not
15:59	kristof	OH, you're talking about sending data literals over the wire, right?
16:00	gtrak	yea.. nrepl seems similar to ring in some respects.
16:03	gtrak	technomancy: looking around, seems like there's no full spec yet.
16:04	gtrak	but I found your proposal for nrepl-discover
16:04	gtrak	is the thought around nrepl scattered a bit?
16:06	piranha	cark: I don't understand monads so I went the other way with macro, if you're interested: https://github.com/piranha/locations/commit/a86467#diff-effac3dbef47adff658b77503b2c34c9R4 (and there is usage a bit higher in this commit)
16:07	gtrak	this one seems to consolidate some info: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/wiki/nREPL.Next
16:08	gtrak	ah, I guess the README is pretty comprehensive
16:08	expez	Any way to get the autoreloading of clojure source files to work with webbitserver? It was super easy to setup for websockets, but restarting the server is annoying. Is Aleph a good alternative?
16:09	grncdr	do cljs datastructures carry their hash value around with them? or is calculated every time it's needed?
16:09	grncdr	*is it
16:09	cark	piranha: good enough if you're ok with throwing
16:09	piranha	cark: well I'm used to it, so I guess I'm ok
16:10	piranha	I should try working with monads though
16:10	cark	piranha: and certainly less expensive
16:10	technomancy	gtrak: scattered is a good characterization, yes
16:10	technomancy	gtrak: I submitted a talk proposal to clojurewest on the topic
16:10	technomancy	if that gets accepted it will give me a chance to get this all polished and sensible
16:10	technomancy	(aka force me)
16:10	gtrak	sweet
16:11	cark	piranha: my monad thing is allocating additional memory for the wrapping up of the return value
16:11	gtrak	I like the idea of unified tooling :-), seems like the autocomplete stuff was a pretty easy target but no one happened to be working on it, which is a shame.
16:11	cark	ahwell looks like he left =/
16:12	bitemyapp	cark: just/error isn't Maybe, that's Either/Error.
16:12	cark	bitemyapp: true
16:12	cark	but they're very close anyways aren't they
16:13	technomancy	gtrak: what autocomplete stuff specifically?
16:13	technomancy	nrepl ships with clojure-complete configured in leiningen
16:13	gtrak	technomancy: I've been working on cljs autocomplete.
16:13	technomancy	oh, sure
16:13	technomancy	bit of a maslow's hierarchy there it seems
16:14	technomancy	no one's interested in fine art when they're still working on indoor plumbing
16:14	gtrak	which has turned into unifying auto-complete under a middleware that can detect whether it's a standard nrepl or a piggieback cljs nrepl.
16:14	cark	bitemyapp: i feel like "just" is more meaningfull than "left"
16:14	gtrak	cider apparently can use a "complete" op, but it defaults to evaling a bunch of crap.
16:15	technomancy	gtrak: right, a cool side-effect is that we can throw away big chunks of cider
16:15	technomancy	just delete it, poof
16:15	bitemyapp	cark: well fine but that doesn't make it Maybe
16:15	dacc	anyone using cursive?
16:15	bitemyapp	cark: that makes it an Either or Error.
16:15	cark	bitemyapp: good because i called it Error in my code !
16:16	bitemyapp	cark: why are you making yourself suffer by writing monads in Clojure?
16:16	bitemyapp	cark: I'm a kindred soul, but man, not the way I'd want to spend my Thursday.
16:16	cark	bitemyapp: because they're usefull
16:17	gtrak	technomancy: consequently it'll work for light table or whatever, if it doesn't already.
16:17	gtrak	these things should be middlewares.
16:17	cark	not implementing the whole thing, needed a maybe like thing, got it now all is fine
16:17	technomancy	gtrak: yeah, the adapter layer for emacs is ~300loc with the fancy rich response types
16:18	bitemyapp	cark: fair enough.
16:18	gtrak	technomancy: was also curious if you have an opinion on bundling middlewares with leiningen, I think I like the 'austin' approach, and I think I don't like the repl-y approach.
16:19	technomancy	gtrak: I don't know what austin does
16:19	gtrak	it manipulates lein projects to inject a cljs repl as a middleware.
16:19	technomancy	reply just intercepts some input as strings and treats it like an op?
16:20	technomancy	that sounds like the way to go
16:20	technomancy	that's different from piggieback?
16:20	gtrak	technomancy: like so: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/austin/plugin.clj
16:20	gtrak	it uses piggieback
16:22	technomancy	gotcha, different layers of the same system
16:23	gtrak	technomancy: specifically, I was confused about how the heck clojure-complete was being used at all :-)
16:23	gtrak	until I saw all the eval nonsense
16:23	technomancy	yeap
16:24	technomancy	big fan of the declarative approach
16:24	technomancy	it would be cool if even reply could make a "discover" call to see what ops are available and support some subset of them from the CLI
16:25	technomancy	gtrak: my work has been a bit scattered because it's become clear that we actually need about three distinct systems that work together
16:26	logic_prog	what is the simplest way to drop the last character (if it exists) of a string
16:26	logic_prog	is it to use Java's substring?
16:26	gtrak	technomancy: well, so the reason it's causing a problem for me, is it couples the nrepl protocol to the specific jvm environment, that was fine for an initial quick-hit, but cljs is closer to environment-as-a-value. Eventually we'll need to decouple these things.
16:26	noonian	,(butlast "foobar")
16:26	clojurebot	(\f \o \o \b \a)
16:26	noonian	,(drop 1 "foobar")
16:26	clojurebot	(\o \o \b \a \r)
16:26	noonian	,(apply str (butlast "foobar"))
16:26	clojurebot	"fooba"
16:26	technomancy	first just a way to programmatically list supported operations for clients, then a way to describe the arguments accepted by operations, then a system for rendering rich media responses
16:27	technomancy	logic_prog: (subs "mystr" -1), excep the patch was rejected as "goofy"
16:27	logic_prog	technomancy: who rejected the patch
16:28	gtrak	technomancy: I can't rely on any single compilation strategy for cljs, hence the need for a middleware.
16:28	technomancy	rich, I think?
16:28	logic_prog	technomancy: can you remotely tell their lein to rm -rf /
16:28	logic_prog	oh, maybe not, if it's rich, we can forgive him
16:28	gtrak	some people might be using piggieback, maybe they're using something else, but emacs won't ever know the details :-).
16:28	technomancy	gtrak: yay declarativism
16:29	technomancy	not to mention editor agnosticism
16:29	AeroNotix	What are the options with coverage reports? I'm using lein-cloverage now, but there areother tools I want to integrate with such as cobertura w/ jenkins
16:30	gtrak	decoupling
16:33	tpope	technomancy: along those lines, I'm skeptical that discover as it stands is a good fit for some of the more editor idiosyncratic operations like completion
16:34	technomancy	tpope: because of needing close integration with the buffer state?
16:34	tpope	that is, I don't think it's even possible for me to implement support that way, unless there's a hint on the operation that it does completion
16:35	tpope	technomancy: well with vim, you give it a reference to a function that returns completion results
16:36	tpope	there's no "add this to the completion" operation, that's all in vim's hands
16:37	technomancy	but it's just "invoke a function, then perform this insertion at this point in the buffer", right?
16:37	bitemyapp	tpope: you got older!
16:41	tpope	I've felt some friction with other operations too (e.g., running the test suite could be asynchronous but jump to file has to be synchronous, and I need to know which is which before dispatching)
16:41	tpope	I think it's a great fit for operations like slamhound, where there's no existing paradigms to match up with
16:42	tpope	technomancy: oh, for completion? invoking completion in vim gives you a drop down list, vaguely like "intellisense"
16:43	technomancy	tpope: oh, yeah, that would require a different approach than normal tab completion a la readline
16:43	technomancy	I think you could support both with an Accept header though
16:43	tpope	bitemyapp: a little bit every day
16:44	Cr8	o/` you're older than you've ever been and now you're even older... and now you're even older... and now you're even older o/`
16:44	bitemyapp	tpope: belated congrats :)
16:45	tpope	ty buddy
16:45	bitemyapp	open source: "When are you going to make this thing for me for free?"
16:46	technomancy	"When it results in a speaking gig."
16:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: I got one of those comments on github.
16:47	bitemyapp	I politely explained to them how the world works.
16:48	technomancy	you figured it out?
16:48	technomancy	well, don't be shy; tell us.
16:48	gfredericks	(inc technomancy)
16:48	technomancy	all this time I've been so curious
16:49	tcrayford	(inc so)
16:49	bitemyapp	technomancy: I said our needs didn't overlap so that unless they took action themselves, nothing was likely to happen.
16:49	bitemyapp	I only implement, shock && amazement, what I need.
16:49	gfredericks	and that's how the world works
16:49	akurilin	justin_smith: makes sense, good point.
16:50	akurilin	justin_smith: I was just running my understanding of the issue by you guys to see if I was thinking about it right
16:50	akurilin	as in, writing log to disk + flush = lotsa time wasted instead of returning HTTP response right away
16:50	akurilin	potentially clogging up the thread pool
16:51	bitemyapp	akurilin: so use an agent? But why are you worried about this?
16:51	bitemyapp	akurilin: Rails apps will have tons of logging and it's a garbage single-threaded runtime and they do fine.
16:51	bitemyapp	akurilin: surely you can't be suffering any worse than those peopel.
16:51	technomancy	bitemyapp: "I eagerly await the contribution coming from your unique perspective on this matter." is always a good one
16:51	bitemyapp	people*
16:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: nice! Stolen.
16:52	bitemyapp	tcrayford: used to?
16:52	tcrayford	yah, I fixed it like 3 weeks ago now
16:52	bitemyapp	tcrayford: or still does? Mitch Hedberg?
16:52	akurilin	bitemyapp: we're starting to get hammered a bit harder these days during the middle of the schoolday and I wanted to make sure I'm not being dumb about something obvious like waiting for EC2's crappy disk drives
16:53	bitemyapp	tcrayford: fixed it by...shutting off the logging? :P
16:53	tcrayford	correct
16:53	akurilin	bitemyapp: so I can definitely go with an agent there.
16:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: you need profiling and benchmarks before you go "fixing" things.
16:53	akurilin	bitemyapp: it's true.
16:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: otherwise you're potentially wasting your time.
16:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: be empirical, be smart.
16:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: gather data, find out where your app is spending its time.
16:53	tcrayford	bitemyapp: btw, that was after running a profiler, not before
16:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: THEN optimize.
16:53	bitemyapp	tcrayford: gut. You are one of the chosen ones then.
16:53	akurilin	bitemyapp: is there a good profiler for clojure?
16:53	bitemyapp	good question.
16:54	tcrayford	it's commercial, but very good
16:54	bitemyapp	oh right, I have a YourKit license
16:54	tcrayford	jvisualvm is uh
16:54	bitemyapp	I should use that more.
16:54	tcrayford	usable
16:54	technomancy	no your a kit
16:54	tcrayford	uh phil
16:54	bitemyapp	I was thinking of something more web-focused.
16:54	tcrayford	were did you learn youre grammer?
16:54	tcrayford	it's spelt you're kit
16:54	bitemyapp	guys, this is hurting me.
16:55	akurilin	hm ok I'll check those out, thanks
16:55	bitemyapp	akurilin: my guess? you're spending time with threads parked on I/O, but I don't think logging will dominate there.
16:55	bitemyapp	tcrayford: so what's it like administrating a Rails app that no logging?
16:56	tcrayford	bitemyapp: well, we turned off molst the logging. We have one line per http request now, not like 70 which is the rails default
16:56	hiredman	a fictional car?
16:57	tcrayford	actually prolly an underestimate, it's more like 200 lines per http req for our app
16:57	ztellman	200!
16:57	tcrayford	yeah, gotta log every memcached read/write, every partial template rendered
16:57	ztellman	I was having issues with one of our servers because of a single line per request
16:57	tcrayford	such useful information
16:58	tcrayford	a rubby server?
16:58	ztellman	nah, Clojure
16:58	bitemyapp	rubby pls
16:58	ztellman	and it's on AWS, where available IOPs on the epehemeral disk can basically be anything
16:58	bitemyapp	including 0
16:58	tcrayford	haha yeah
16:58	akurilin	ztellman: how did you fix it?
16:59	bitemyapp	probably shut it off
16:59	bitemyapp	or shunted it to the logging infrastructure that isn't >> to a file on EBS
16:59	ztellman	akurilin: in the short term, piped it through 'buffer -S100k'
16:59	ztellman	unfortunately we're gathering data via the logs for the next day or so
16:59	ztellman	in the longer term, journal it directly to s3
16:59	akurilin	Why was shoving this into a separate thread not good enough?
17:00	bitemyapp	long tail latency probably matters too much.
17:00	ztellman	akurilin: that would probably be fine too, I just didn't want to monkey with the code to deal with an environmental issue
17:00	ztellman	since it's going away soon
17:00	bitemyapp	ztellman: to be replaced with?
17:01	ztellman	a library we're going to open source soon, which journals streams of data to s3
17:01	tcrayford	one more from the ztellman grimoire
17:01	ztellman	eh, this'll be under the factual copyright
17:01	ztellman	if I start a project on nights and weekends, I call it mine
17:02	akurilin	What can't you stuff into S3 these days? :) I'm terrified of looking at our WAL dump on that thing, I need to clean up the old logs at some point.
17:02	ztellman	this was purely to deal with the fact that we need to process ~70k data points/sec, and sometimes S3 stops accepting writes for 30 seconds, and that was tipping over our processes
17:02	bitemyapp	my company doesn't have a github, so when we open source something that I worked on I just CA to myself and release on my github.
17:02	bitemyapp	if they're open sourcing it, I'm assuming they don't really care about the copyright that much.
17:03	ztellman	bitemyapp: I don't think anyone here cares overly much, but the "would I have made this on my own anyway" criteria is how I separate the two
17:04	ztellman	I guarantee you I wouldn't have spend time wrestling with the s3 multipart api if I could have avoided it
17:04	bitemyapp	ztellman: I'm surprised your machines are even talking to S3 directly
17:04	bitemyapp	ztellman: I'd have assumed you'd be using a Scribe-esque layer for abstracting that.
17:05	bitemyapp	since everything you do seems to be at ?!SCALE!?
17:05	ztellman	I should clarify that the process that was logging once per request wasn't the one handling the 70k qps
17:05	ztellman	that was falling over at only about 200 qps per instance
17:06	ztellman	bitemyapp: it's similar to scribe, I guess, data is queued on-disk, etc.
17:07	ztellman	but most of the layers atop s3 don't use the API very well
17:07	ztellman	we were using the Hadoop client for a while, it kept OOMing and going into a zombie state
17:07	bitemyapp	:\|
17:07	hiredman	hah
17:08	ztellman	the lesson of the day is that when your sustained throughput is 5mb/sec, it doesn't take much of a hiccup to send everything to hell
17:10	gtrak	is it possible to deploy to clojars from travis-ci?
17:10	turbofail	hm. i wrote an s3 streaming library at one point as well
17:11	bitemyapp	gtrak: after-script, innit?
17:11	bitemyapp	gtrak: but you'll need the credentials sufficient to do the push in the repo.
17:11	gtrak	yea, I'm wondering about the auth stuff, specifically
17:12	bitemyapp	gtrak: I'm not sure travis has any secure environment variable stuff that would help with this.
17:12	AeroNotix	Surely though that travis has auth related stuff, it needs to pull from private accounts when you pay for travis
17:12	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: yeah but it might be github/etc specific.
17:13	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: not something you can generally use in a build script.
17:13	gtrak	bitemyapp: actually yea
17:13	AeroNotix	hmm, worth a look at their docs
17:13	gtrak	http://about.travis-ci.org/docs/user/build-configuration/#Secure-environment-variables
17:13	gtrak	you encrypt with their provided public key
17:13	bitemyapp	ah sweet.
17:14	gtrak	I hope that means I can throw the same file in all my repos after I do it once.
17:17	technomancy	sounds a bit suspicious
17:17	technomancy	presumably their private key is available on their build nodes, right?
17:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: maybe they do a hand-off with a single locked-down keyserver?
17:18	technomancy	bitemyapp: but they couldn't lein deploy from there
17:18	technomancy	I mean, you can't lein deploy without a checkout of the project
17:19	technomancy	which means arbitrary code execution
17:19	technomancy	well, technically you can now, but you couldn't when this was written
17:19	bitemyapp	CI is a good example of where I would use sandboxes for everything.
17:19	technomancy	anyway, I wouldn't trust it for an OSS project
17:20	gtrak	thankfully clojure artifacts are source, but I see what you're saying.
17:20	technomancy	unless they have a separate keypair for each project maybe
17:20	technomancy	even with that though you can get it set up to run builds for every PR submitted
17:20	technomancy	so someone could easily submit a keystealer PR
17:21	AeroNotix	technomancy: they have good defaults
17:22	AeroNotix	technomancy: if you set travis up w/ automated PR builders, then it's your fault for not reading the docs hard enough to realise the security flaw.
17:22	technomancy	sure, I'll buy that
17:23	technomancy	still, I'd rather have auto PR tests than automatic releases
17:23	bitemyapp	sigh, Manning Publications punning in their email subjects.
17:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: ditto.
17:23	bitemyapp	most libraries really do not need a constant stream of releases hitting clojars.
17:25	gtrak	I'd just want to deploy off real release numbers, and to save myself the trouble of typing stuff in all the time.
17:25	gtrak	I end up putting text files in there to remind myself how :-)
17:25	gtrak	and i don't feel like running jenkins either.
17:25	technomancy	gtrak: I've thought about reading version numbers from tags
17:26	AeroNotix	hmm, I should figure out clojars sometime soon.
17:26	technomancy	gtrak: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1411
17:26	gtrak	technomancy: I always forget tags, too :-)
17:26	gtrak	i could be convinced to remember if I knew the build counted on it.
17:26	technomancy	gtrak: right; this would force you to tag, or you wouldn't get an actual release
17:26	AeroNotix	Say if I have a project which depends on a library I am also writing, but I want that library to eventually be on clojars. What's the best way about that? Use a local repo/jar until I am ready to release or is there a better way?
17:28	technomancy	AeroNotix: you can do `lein install` on the lib and use checkout dependencies to develop two projects in parallel
17:29	AeroNotix	technomancy: cheers
17:29	AeroNotix	:beers:
17:30	tcrayford	that thing works pretty well. I have like 10 libs in a monorepo, and it's pretty easy
17:30	tcrayford	after you do the ln -s bash script dance to get checkouts setup anyway
17:30	AeroNotix	ok
17:31	technomancy	the key is to remember checkouts are something you do on top of an already working setup
17:31	hiredman	and to not forget they are there
17:32	technomancy	heh; inc
17:32	AeroNotix	on that note, is there a lein plugin for unused :dependencies?
17:32	technomancy	hm; I don't think so
17:33	technomancy	not a bad idea though
17:33	AeroNotix	Would be nice
17:33	hiredman	that could be challenging
17:33	tcrayford	pretty easy to do in the common case
17:33	tcrayford	general case is halting problem hard
17:33	tcrayford	(or something, at least very difficult)
17:33	technomancy	true
17:33	hiredman	artifact ids don't need to match code names
17:33	technomancy	you could always slamhound it
17:33	AeroNotix	common case is that "does this namespace appear in :require or :use in ns forms"
17:34	hiredman	code may be loaded at runtime
17:34	AeroNotix	hiredman: sure, in that case we put our hands up and say "your problem now"
17:34	AeroNotix	line in the sand
17:34	technomancy	run the test suite repeatedly with a different dependency removed each time
17:34	AeroNotix	technomancy: hahahaha
17:34	AeroNotix	good, I like it
17:34	AeroNotix	also, run coverage and delete unused code
17:34	AeroNotix	:D
17:35	technomancy	it's pretty perverse, but it's better than solving the halting problem
17:35	AeroNotix	anything's better than that
17:35	technomancy	I also want a plugin that does clojure.walk and replaces if with if-not and vice versa and ensures that every change causes test failures.
17:36	technomancy	someone has done this for ruby; it should be super easy for clojure
17:36	AeroNotix	huh!
17:36	AeroNotix	nice idea
17:36	bitemyapp	technomancy: `cbp was working on that.
17:37	bitemyapp	technomancy: I don't know why he listens to me though.
17:37	technomancy	oh cool
17:37	bitemyapp	technomancy: I wanted that too.
17:37	bitemyapp	https://github.com/cesarbp/eris
17:37	technomancy	I assume it's a discordian thing?
17:38	technomancy	(defmethod mangle ...) ; lgtm
18:17	coventry	I'm having some weirdness with cljsbuild. It started with a NPE in com.google.javascript.jscomp.Compiler.newTracer from "cljsbuild auto" every time I modified a file, that went away after "cljsbuild clean". Then it was outputting an empty javascript file, that went away after I deleted all js files. Now it's not autocompiling when I touch a file. Anyone run into anything like this?
18:20	dnolen	coventry: you probably have multiple cljsbuilds running
18:21	dnolen	coventry: or maybe not, but the most inexplicable stuff happens when you do
18:23	Raynes	amalloy: You're not in #4clojure.
18:24	Raynes	Was this intentional?
18:31	coventry	dnolen: Thanks, "killall java" seems to have been the ticket.
18:35	`cbp	heh I need to stop being lazy and finish eris :(
18:36	`cbp	or uh rewrite it since i had the wrong idea about it
18:37	closed	hi
18:37	closed	i am facing a strange problem
18:37	closed	result (for [row rows] (assoc row :somekey "k"))
18:37	closed	doesn't replace the somekey's value
18:37	closed	instead i get two keys having name somekey
18:37	justin_smith	closed: you need to use the result
18:38	justin_smith	can you paste the result?
18:38	rasmusto	closed: you have two keys that are exactly :somekey?
18:38	justin_smith	*the output
18:38	closed	println shows :somekey and somekey
18:38	justin_smith	rasmusto: my guess is 'somekey, ":somekey", or "somekey"
18:38	justin_smith	yeah, 'somekey is a symbol
18:39	justin_smith	but println will show "somekey" as somekey too
18:39	justin_smith	try prn
18:39	rasmusto	,{"somekey" "k", :somekey "k"}
18:39	clojurebot	{"somekey" "k", :somekey "k"}
18:39	hiredman	~for
18:39	clojurebot	for is not a loop
18:39	rasmusto	,(println {"somekey" "k", :somekey "k"})
18:39	clojurebot	{somekey k, :somekey k}\n
18:40	justin_smith	rasmusto: that's why I suggested prin to see what is actually there
18:40	rasmusto	yep, good idea
18:43	closed	{somekey oldvalue, :somekey k}
18:43	closed	this is what i get
18:44	closed	why can this happen ?
18:45	rasmusto	closed: is that with println or with prn?
18:45	closed	println
18:45	rasmusto	try with prn as justin_smith suggested, it will tell you whether you have a string or a symbol
18:47	hiredman	closed: are you coming from common lisp?
18:47	closed	no i am comming from java very new to clojure
18:48	hiredman	in clojure :somekey is a distinct datatype called a keyword
18:48	closed	({"somekey" "oldvalue", :somekey "k"})
18:48	Tolstoy	If you have a string ":foo" and a :foo they'll print the same, unless you (pr-str data).
18:48	hiredman	,(type :somekey)
18:48	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
18:48	hiredman	,(type 'somekey)
18:48	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
18:49	hiredman	,(type "somekey")
18:49	clojurebot	java.lang.String
18:49	koreth_	It is not a totally accurate analogy but you could think of :somekey as a Java enum value. It's distinct from an instance of java.lang.String.
18:49	closed	yes but my intent was to replace the existing key in the map
18:50	rasmusto	closed: the issue here is that the existing key is not the same as the keyword ":somekey"
18:50	justin_smith	closed: to replace "somekey" you need to assoc "somekey"
18:50	justin_smith	rather than :somekey
18:50	koreth_	Use (assoc old-map "somekey" new-value) rather than (assoc old-map :somekey new-value)
18:51	justin_smith	exactly
18:51	closed	that works like a charm
18:51	closed	thanks
18:52	ivan	do I have to rebind out to write EDN to a file? (without making a string first)
18:52	ivan	(pr-on is private)
18:55	justin_smith	(spit "file-name" (pr-str thing))
18:56	justin_smith	unless you are doing something that needs some optimization spit cannot provide I guess
18:56	ivan	thanks
18:56	justin_smith	that doesn't ensure that everything you output is readable mind you
18:57	justin_smith	that part is your job - unless there is some helper I don't know of
19:01	ivan	right
19:07	srruby	How do I turn on :pre assertions ? (:pre false) is not throwing an exception
19:08	hiredman	that is not a precondition
19:09	justin_smith	{:pre [false]}
19:10	justin_smith	it's a vector, since you could have more than one
19:10	hiredman	and the map is only a precondition when it immediately follows the arg vector of a fn
19:10	srruby	Thanks
19:10	hiredman	for other uses see assert
19:30	TEttinger	,(defmacro -l [^long a ^long b] `(- ~a ~b)) ; will this work? Can you type-hint macro args?
19:30	clojurebot	#'sandbox/-l
19:30	TEttinger	,(-l 2 1)
19:30	clojurebot	1
19:31	TEttinger	so I'm having a weird issue (I'm really new to macros, forgive me if this is very simple), where that -l macro can't take any vars as args (like (def size 33) (-l size 10) ; fails)
19:32	michaniskin	TEttinger: the `a` argument is not a long in that case, it's the symbol 'size
19:34	TEttinger	michaniskin, so what's the correct way to avoid - boxing its args?
19:34	hiredman	the reverse infact
19:34	michaniskin	TEttinger: macros get their arguments unevaluated. you sort of eval them in a way when you do ~a in the expression you return
19:35	hiredman	it is a long, and the long is dropped in place of the symbol
19:35	hiredman	the symbol is type hinted
19:35	hiredman	the long is not
19:36	hiredman	(defmacro -l [a b] `(- (long ~a) (long ~b)))
19:36	michaniskin	,(defmacro foop [a] `(quote ~(type a)))
19:36	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foop
19:37	michaniskin	,(foop map)
19:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
19:37	hiredman	michaniskin: you added an extra quote compared to his example
19:37	TEttinger	hiredman, that kinda makes sense. when I profiled this program, it spent a large amount of time on reflections (something like 30% of time used was one reflection fn in the clojure compiler). however I tried what you suggested and it appeared to be really slow. It could be some other factor, I'll profile again.
19:38	michaniskin	hiredman: it was just to show the type of the argument to the macro
19:39	srruby	Is there a way to know which file is being run? for example if I do something like: lein run foo.clj is there a way to find out "foo.clj" ?
19:39	hiredman	TEttinger: my guess would you re-defed the macro without recompiling the places it is used
19:39	srruby	What tool do you use for profiling?
19:40	TEttinger	srruby, jvisualvm, it comes with the JDK
19:40	TEttinger	hiredman, it could also have been my processor getting restricted by power save mode
19:40	srruby	Tettinger: Thanks,
19:40	TEttinger	(I think it was power save)
19:43	TEttinger	frickin' carbonite. just checked task manager, I was using pagefiles because Carbonite Sync and Share was using 7 GB RAM on my 8 GB RAM machine
19:43	TEttinger	(actually about 7.8)
20:02	miql	cough
20:10	john2x	ping bitemyapp
20:26	[Neurotic]	Hey all, apologies for the spam - I started a channel ##clojure-au for the local Australian clojure community. Thought it would be nice to bring the local community together a bit.
20:33	quizdr	what is the difference between typing "lein new myproject" and "lein new app myproject" ?
20:34	technomancy	quizdr: apps get compiled and have a -main entry point
20:34	quizdr	ah, so for running via command line?
20:35	quizdr	or running on a webserver
20:35	hyPiRion	If you asked the difference between the different arities, you can check the difference by doing `lein help new`
20:36	quizdr	hyPiRion good to know thanks
20:43	pdurbin	[Neurotic]: there's also #polyhack: https://twitter.com/nicholasf/status/334265872480866304
20:44	[Neurotic]	pdurbin: yup, I'm in there too :) good channel
20:44	quizdr	can anyone recommend a really good clear tutorial on regex?
20:45	pdurbin	[Neurotic]: but not enough clojure there for you? ;)
20:45	[Neurotic]	Never enough clojure anywhere ;)
20:48	pdurbin	[Neurotic]: any plans to log either channel? a la http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/%23clojure/today.txt
20:48	[Neurotic]	Hadn't even thought about it
21:00	TEttinger	quizdr, yes. what do you want to know? I know a few
21:01	TEttinger	http://www.regular-expressions.info/charclass.html might be a good place to start, you can ignore anything for non-JVM engines
21:12	pdurbin	quizdr: http://myregextester.com and my writeup at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7883415/what-is-the-best-regular-expression-generator-explainer/7883461#7883461 ... learn by example :)
21:14	pdurbin	closed as off topic?!?
22:09	amalloy	quizdr: i can't recommend regular-expressions.info enough. it's great
22:13	coventry	Anyone using om who's run into a situation where on the component generated by the last (om/build) call gets rendered on state updates?
22:13	coventry	*only the component
22:14	coventry	I.e., (do (om/build c1 ...) (om/build c2 ...)) means that only c2's render gets called, (do (om/build c2 ...) (om/build c1 ...)) means only c1's does.
22:18	amalloy	i don't know about om, but it sounds like build returns something meaningful, rather than just doing some side effects
22:19	amalloy	and there's a build-all function, which looks like it's for doing multiple things
22:23	coventry	Thanks, amalloy. I'll look into it.
22:32	quizdr	amalloy great site thanks
22:44	maclane	exit
22:44	maclane	exit
22:45	webus	hi clojurians!
22:48	quizdr	where might I go to find good clear information on setting up a Clojure web server on Linode or Rackspace, etc. I'm using Heroku right now, which takes care of everything for you, but I'd like to tryother things, but don't have that type of sysadmin knowledge
22:53	webus	i want to write some AI implementation. is core.logic good choice for this ?
23:07	gtrak	quizdr: depends on how much control you want.. easiest thing might be a java host that takes war files.
23:08	TEttinger	webus, what kind of AI?
23:10	webus	TEttinger> first, i want create simple chat bot. but i want speech recognition and generation of speech through Google services. I want to realize self-learning to memorize unknown bot him questions and answers
23:11	TEttinger	woah that's a lot different than the AI I do (which is really just pathfinding, game AI is less difficult haha)
23:12	TEttinger	speech recognition would be hard for AI, no? people have to ask siri one question at a time and it often gets the words subtly wrong...
23:12	quizdr	gtrak is the war approach also what is known as AOT ?
23:13	gtrak	quizdr: at least the servlet part has to be AOT, AOT means 'ahead of time', AOT compilation to be precise.
23:13	quizdr	yea speech recognition is no small chore. siri must send all your voice data to the cloud for massive processing before it can return an answer.
23:13	TEttinger	quizdr, I don't think so. AOT is ahead-of-time compilation, to make .class files, which can be for jar or war
23:13	gtrak	clojure itself is also compiled... so it can load the rest.
23:14	gtrak	but java has to call into a java class, whose name is specified in a web.xml, that's how the servlet spec works.
23:15	quizdr	this stuff might be above my head for now. better stick with heroku
23:15	gtrak	it's not hard.. it's just a lot of details.
23:15	gtrak	you wouldn't want to do it unless you already have legacy java knowledge, most likely.
23:16	TEttinger	there's some good articles on AOT I have to look up a lot
23:16	gtrak	heroku is way nicer.
23:17	quizdr	i have never used Java, so probably not a wise endeavor for me at this point. better leave it to the host provider to handle, of which Heroku seems to be the only one that does it all for you
23:18	TEttinger	ooh https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-servlet
23:18	gtrak	unless you have a motivating use-case...
23:18	gtrak	TEttinger: ring has a servlet implementation itself, and lein ring uberwar's a thing.
23:18	gtrak	though I found it lacking and wrote my own.
23:18	quizdr	my motivating use case was that you can get cheaper servers if you set them up yourself. compare Linode pricing to Heroku pricing, for example
23:18	TEttinger	oh nice. I haven't done any web dev in clojure, all local
23:19	gtrak	quizdr: set it up yourself on a linux VM and you'll know how it all goes together :-).
23:19	gtrak	also free.
23:19	quizdr	plus the linode pricing includes lots of storage, as opposed to Heroku which suggests you offload storage to other places
23:19	Raynes	I used to host refheap on heroku.
23:19	Raynes	With SSL, the amount I paid required fundraising.
23:20	gtrak	I've installed linux about a thousand times and I find it too annoying to deal with on a regular basis.
23:20	Raynes	And I couldn't justify fundraising the amount required to host it on Heroku when I could host it myself for cheaper.
23:20	TEttinger	buy off-lease servers on ebay, install linux, gasp as your ISP bills and power usage goes through the roof!
23:20	gtrak	rather.. I use linux full-time, I just don't want to sysadmin linux full time.
23:20	Raynes	But that's because refheap doesn't run on a dedicated server, and I also share the server with amalloy.
23:21	gtrak	TEttinger: I bought an intel atom just for that purpose.. but that's slow.
23:21	gtrak	an old laptop might have been a better choice.
23:21	TEttinger	that's what I host my lazybot on
23:21	Raynes	Refheap runs on a linode with 4clojure, lazybot, my blog, php sites, etc.
23:21	TEttinger	built in UPS!
23:21	gtrak	exactly!
23:22	gfredericks	Raynes does professional clo
23:22	quizdr	Raynes was setting up the linode a challenge?
23:22	gfredericks	I started a joke and then tried to delete it but accidentally sent the first half
23:22	Raynes	Raynes doesn't do professional Clojure if that's what you were saying :p
23:22	quizdr	you guys who have done it should put up a nice walk through of the process. i'd pay for the knowledge actually, a good mini-book.
23:22	gfredericks	cloak
23:22	Raynes	Raynes used to do professional Clojure
23:22	gfredericks	cloves?
23:22	Raynes	I do professional cloves.
23:23	Raynes	We'll go with that.
23:23	technomancy	Raynes: put 'er here buddy
23:23	technomancy	former professional clojurists club
23:23	Raynes	'er*
23:23	gfredericks	clowns
23:23	Raynes	technomancy: We have plans.
23:24	technomancy	Raynes: "we" as in club members?
23:24	Raynes	We as in my team :p
23:24	gtrak	anyone familiar with lein enough to know where this data shape could come from? {[:extension jar] /home/gary/dev/project/target/projectname-1.3.2-SNAPSHOT.jar}
23:24	gtrak	I have some old plugin code that's expecting just a string.
23:24	gtrak	but it's getting a map.
23:24	gtrak	works on 2.0.0, broken after.
23:24	quizdr	seriously if anyone documented the process of setting up a website on linode for Clojure, that would fill a huge gap in the info that's out there on the subject
23:25	quizdr	i just chatted with linode and they said they don't have any info on it, everyone points you to some other place
23:25	Raynes	Get a linode, install leiningen, LEIN_NO_DEV=1 lein ring
23:25	Raynes	lein ring server*
23:25	Raynes	Done!
23:25	Raynes	:p
23:25	technomancy	no don't do that
23:25	quizdr	k Raynes what is your paypal
23:25	quizdr	;)
23:25	technomancy	use an uberjar
23:25	technomancy	LEIN_NO_DEV doesn't even work on lein2
23:26	quizdr	ah, see the plot thickens already
23:26	Raynes	technomancy: It isn't a thing?
23:26	Raynes	Also, I still disagree with you about lein ring.
23:26	Raynes	I think it's quite splendid.
23:26	technomancy	Raynes: you have to use profiles for that now
23:26	Raynes	Anyways, IIRC lein ring looks for LEIN_NO_DEV.
23:26	TEttinger	how much does a linode cost about? it's a monthly bill, but I guess it strongly depends on your needs
23:27	quizdr	$20 per month for starters
23:27	technomancy	Raynes: lein ring is neat, but as you've demonstrated it is easy to get wrong
23:27	gtrak	aha, the jar task returns something different
23:27	technomancy	also, it wastes a lot of memory; you should use trampoline
23:28	Raynes	technomancy: I don't think I got it wrong though -- I still thing that lein ring uses that environment variable. But you can also use profiles just the same.
23:28	Raynes	think*
23:28	technomancy	if you have to use lein ring it's something like `lein trampoline with-profile production ring`, but you still have to deal with crappy boot times compared to an uberjar
23:28	Raynes	Trampoline is a good point.
23:28	noonian	lein ring uberjar
23:28	Raynes	If you're worried about boot times on a web app...
23:29	gtrak	technomancy: can you point me at where the return value changed in the output of the jar task? {[:extension jar] /home/gary/dev/project/target/projectname-1.3.2-SNAPSHOT.jar}
23:29	gtrak	wondering if I can just cond on that vs the old behavior.
23:30	technomancy	Raynes: you also have to be more careful about snapshots not sneaking into your build; artifacts could change across process restarts, which is impossible with an uberjar
23:30	Raynes	TEttinger: We pay $60 a month for 8 cores, 3GB of RAM, and something like 50GB or so of disk space.
23:30	gtrak	technomancy: ah, I see the code's pretty obvious, nm :-)
23:30	technomancy	plus it's like seventeen files instead of two
23:30	technomancy	gtrak: probably changed when classifiers were introduced
23:30	Raynes	technomancy: I think the biggest win is not having to put the ring-jetty-adapter boilerplate in your code.
23:31	gtrak	yea, that looks like what happened.
23:31	Raynes	I akin lein-ring to that boilerplate.
23:31	gtrak	technomancy: but if I use [:extension "jar"] as a key, that's reliable.
23:31	technomancy	Raynes: it's four lines
23:31	Raynes	technomancy: That very much depends on what you want to do with it.
23:32	Raynes	And it's still 4 lines.
23:32	Raynes	Eh
23:32	Raynes	I don't think lein ring qualifies as magic. I mean, you've got some valid issues with it, but it's pretty straight forward.
23:32	Raynes	You tell it what var your handler is, it throws it at jetty and makes it easy to configure things.
23:33	TEttinger	Raynes, sounds good. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-C6100-CLOUD-SERVER-6x-1-8GHz-AMD-6-CORE-HEX-CORE-144GB-RAM-3x-750GB-/171182816383 or some other (presumably) off-lease enterprise server would be complete overkill huh. I still want one.
23:33	Raynes	Anyways, arguing with the guy who invented leiningen about how to best use it is not really a good idea for me.
23:33	Raynes	:p
23:33	technomancy	Raynes: it's OK; I'm not a professional clojure developer =)
23:34	Raynes	Hahaha
23:34	Raynes	Hey, I'm not either!
23:34	Foxboron	Raynes: dude
23:34	Foxboron	Raynes: i saw you hacking Python the other day, heard about Hy :D?
23:34	technomancy	well then aren't we a pair http://i.imgur.com/pjLt88C.gif
23:34	Raynes	Foxboron: Have not
23:35	gtrak	lein ring thankfully is small enough to rip out when you've exceeded it.
23:35	Raynes	Foxboron: Oh, that's cool.
23:35	Foxboron	Raynes: its a LISP that is 100% introptable and bidirectional with python 2.6, 2.7, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 and pypy :3
23:35	Foxboron	interopt*
23:35	Raynes	Pretty cool.
23:35	Foxboron	you should check it out if you dislike Python syntax, borrows clojure syntax on a few things.
23:36	technomancy	I met the guy who made Joxa the other day
23:36	technomancy	looks pretty cool
23:36	cark	Foxboron: it's all about semantics though
23:36	gtrak	schmemantics
23:37	gtrak	it's all about having macros
23:37	cark	yes that sgh..thing too
23:37	Foxboron	we got macros and reader macros :3
23:37	cark	do you have core.async ? =)
23:38	Foxboron	uhhhh, dosnt python have something similare underway :D?
23:38	Foxboron	could easly make a wrapper to have it feel and look the same
23:38	john2x	does Hy have persistent datastructures?
23:38	Foxboron	john2x: Python do have libs doing that, so yes we do.
23:38	cark	john2x: ahyes, the main selling point of clojrue
23:40	john2x	ah did not know about the libs.. cool!
23:40	chare	I LOVE CLOJURE NOW
23:40	chare	YOU GUYS LOVE CLOJURE TOO?
23:41	egghead	wut
23:41	coventry	amalloy: You were right.
23:41	egghead	chare: clojure is a cool language I like to use it sometimes to write computer programs
23:42	john2x	I keep on forgetting how to do this. sigh How do I reload a namespace I `use`d in the REPL? (better yet, how do I reload all namespaces I've `use`d so far?)
23:42	gtrak	I like to use it to heat my cpu, my girlfriend wonders why I leave so much garbage around the house.
23:42	chare	gtrak so she dumped you
23:42	gtrak	it was a GC joke.
23:42	gtrak	she didn't get it.
23:43	noonian	john2x: (use 'the.namespace :reload) will reload the single file, reload-all will reload all files it requires also
23:43	noonian	i don't think there's a way to do it for everything you've 'use'd in the repl before
23:45	john2x	hmm but there's a function to list all namespaces used/referred so far right? maybe I could write a fn to go through the list and reload each, and inject it into lein as a utility
23:47	s4muel	john2x: http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
23:47	tpope	john2x: check out refresh in tools.namespace
23:48	chare	whats the latest cool news about clojure
23:50	Raynes	Or bultitude.
23:50	Raynes	tpope: Represent, yo.