#clojure – 2014-01-13

2014-01-13

00:05	amalloy	ah yes, nicola's patch fixes the issue that i carefully checked for but still failed to notice
00:26	logic_prog	is the semantics for "throwing an uncaught exception inside a go block" well defined ?
00:26	logic_prog	if so, what is it defined as?
00:49	cerealklr	Hey folks. Is there any way to have comments at the end of lines in multiline strings?
00:49	cerealklr	I've got a kind of gnarly regexp that I'd like to document
00:52	amalloy	cerealklr: well, a regex isn't a string. i don't think there's an answer for strings, aside from just writing (str "foo" ;; blah <RET> "bar" ;; duh)
00:53	cerealklr	My bad, I'd assumed the same rules would apply.
00:53	amalloy	but java's regular expressions support extended mode with the (?x) embedded flag (most regex engines do, even if they may have a more convenient syntax like /foo/x)
00:53	amalloy	so #"foo # comment RET bar # comment2 ..."
00:53	amalloy	ought to work
00:53	amalloy	er
00:53	amalloy	#"(?x)foo # comment RET bar # comment2 ..."
00:55	amalloy	for more details about how extended mode changes the way regular expressions are compiled...well, look up extended mode, i guess
00:55	cerealklr	Dang. JS Regexps don't suppport extended mode, and I'm working in clojurescript. Didn't stop to consider the difference.
00:56	cerealklr	I suppose I can shim out to JS's Regexp ctor if there isn't a more elegant in language way.
01:00	amalloy	well, js does support extended mode, but it doesn't support inline flags
01:00	amalloy	whereas clojure has no way to specify flags other than inline (or interop)
01:04	deadghost	hmm ordinarily you'd use vectors instead of lists except when writing macros right?
01:05	deadghost	I have a few places where I'm using lists as tuples and vectors seem more appropriate
01:07	seangrove	cerealklr: Sounds like a good opp for a library
01:07	cerealklr	seangrove: I ended up using re-pattern with str
01:08	cerealklr	a macro would probably bundle that nicely
01:08	amalloy	cerealklr: well, not very nicely, really, right? because you have to double-escape things in a string but not in a regex
01:09	amalloy	eg, #"\d{4}" vs (re-pattern (str "\\d" "{4}"))
01:09	cerealklr	fair enough. Didn't consider that
01:09	cerealklr	it's a tradeoff either way
01:10	amalloy	yeah
01:10	ruzu	`(println "yay")
01:12	amalloy	deadghost: huh? you use vectors and lists pretty much the same in macros as you would otherwise
01:14	deadghost	probably worded that poorly
01:14	deadghost	you'd typically use vectors instead of lists right?
01:15	deadghost	except in macros where you need to build an s-exp
01:15	deadghost	which requires lists
01:16	amalloy	i mean, your output will include lists (seqs, really), but so does the output of many functions; and you'll probably type as many () and []s as you do when writing any other function
01:17	amalloy	and the output will include vectors too, eg for emitting let-blocks
01:53	mischanix	Trying to pprint a seq that's basically the result of filter and getting ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
01:54	mischanix	Here's relevant code/stack trace: https://www.refheap.com/23162
02:07	amalloy	the formatting of that code is really weird, mischanix - it makes it very hard to read what is going on. but here it looks like the problem is that you're calling (vals (:heroes s)), and (:heroes s) is a list of maps, rather than a single map
02:07	Raynes	Holy shit.
02:08	Raynes	Gotta say, I couldn't have come up with that layout myself.
02:10	mischanix	Ah, nice find, thanks.
02:11	amalloy	if i were going to make a whitespace-only rewrite of your code, it would look like https://www.refheap.com/23176
02:13	mischanix	Yeah. First project in clojure, never touched a lisp before either.
02:17	mischanix	Got 600 more lines of stuff that looks exactly like that if you're into the horror genre.
02:20	amalloy	haha no thanks, i saw that a newcomer to the language was trying to write hearthstone and that one snippet was enough for me
02:21	mischanix	Might end up redoing it in C once I know my data structures, heh
02:23	logic_prog	with http://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/>! , is there any defined behavior for using >! / >!! on a closed channel?
02:23	logic_prog	i.e. is the behavior undefined, throw, or nil ?
02:28	proteneer_	anyone play around with ClojureC to be able to comment on its maturity?
02:33	amalloy	i would be astonished if clojurec were mature, proteneer_. aside from the readme itself saying it's experimental and not-polished, one of the two commits made in december was "make things compile again" after a two-month period of no commits, in which presumably things did not compile
02:33	proteneer_	hm
02:33	proteneer_	ok
02:34	proteneer_	thanks. I've been itching to dive into a FP language, but I don't know any java
02:39	TEttinger	proteneer_, there's a few people in here who are users of haskell, it's a solid choice if you are averse to java stuff
02:41	seangrove	Anyone have good suggestions for parsing a string as html in clojurescript?
02:52	bitemyapp	seangrove: jquery
02:52	bitemyapp	wait, lemme think about that for a moment.
02:52	seangrove	bitemyapp: I suppose actually I should rephrase
02:52	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://api.jquery.com/jquery.parsehtml/
02:52	seangrove	I would like to parse a string into an html representation, but not actual html (could be unsafe), and then pull out the text content of the nodes.
02:53	bitemyapp	seangrove: then my link seems a good fit.
02:53	seangrove	So they never need to become dom nodes
02:53	seangrove	bitemyapp: heh, "jQuery.parseHTML uses a native DOM element creation function to convert the string to a set of DOM elements, which can then be inserted into the document.
02:53	Raynes	lol
02:53	bitemyapp	seangrove: but you skip the "inserted into the document" part
02:53	bitemyapp	seangrove: and just iterate over the contents
02:54	seangrove	bitemyapp: Hrm, I need to look up when a resource is downloaded - at tag cration time, or dom insertion time
02:55	seangrove	Google is also epicly failing me at that query
02:55	seangrove	I'll ask in an html channel tomorrow
02:55	bitemyapp	seangrove: what sort of resource?
02:56	seangrove	src tag, img tag, a bgaudio tag, etc.
02:56	seangrove	Anything that could trigger an external resource and be used to track a load
02:56	bitemyapp	seangrove: it depends on where they're located and what sort of tag they are.
02:56	bitemyapp	for example, there's a reason you put src tags at the tail of the body, rather than at the top.
02:57	mischanix	fwiw just doing document.createElement().innerHTML= does trigger a load with an <img> tag
02:57	bitemyapp	mischanix: without inserting it into the DOM?
02:59	mischanix	bitemyapp: no insertion: http://i.imgur.com/vB8B4uu.png ; I think the fragments API prevents this, though
03:01	mischanix	actually no, I think I'm thinking of something else but I don't remember
03:04	bitemyapp	DOM Stuff.
03:13	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, DOM + JS... it's enough to shake one's faith in the idea of progress and understanding what came before
03:13	seangrove	But enough for tonight, off to dream of the doms, in whatever form they take
03:13	seangrove	Xb
03:16	ddellacosta	seangrove: based on testing, seems pretty clear that for an image tag, at least, the resource is requested on creation of the element.
03:17	seangrove	If that's the case, I'll have to find a nice library for parsing strings into clj data structures
03:17	ddellacosta	seangrove: seems like this may have something to do with being a "replaced element:" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#replaced-elements
03:17	ddellacosta	seangrove: yah, I was gonna say, may be better (and faster) to generate strings
03:18	ddellacosta	I'm curious if this behavior varies based on the browser, however. I wouldn't put it past IE to do something different.
03:18	ddellacosta	seangrove: Anyways, don't let me keep you from DOM dreams. ;-) 'night!
03:19	seangrove	ddellacosta: Oh, I have html strings already. I want data structures, then some filtering on them, then turn them back into (possibly different) dom nodes
03:19	seangrove	But yes, tomorrow!
03:19	ddellacosta	gotcha.
03:38	logic_prog	given that (>! ... ...) always returns nil, regardless of whether the channel is open or closed
03:38	logic_prog	is htere anyway to quer whether a core.async channel is open or closed?
03:49	alew	what's the difference between drop and nthnext?
03:55	rurumate1	logic_prog: according to the doc string, (<!! ch) will only ever return nil when the channel is closed
03:55	logic_prog	rurumatel, yeah, this doesn't work well since I don't want to be reading from channels
03:55	rurumate1	oh, and !< has the same behaviour
03:55	logic_prog	to actually figure out if they're closed
03:55	rurumate1	I see because that would change them
03:56	logic_prog	i'd prefer soething that didn't alter the state ot the channel, say
03:56	logic_prog	close?
03:58	rurumate1	maybe you can use core.async/filter or core.async/remove on the channel, to prevent it from returning anything non-nil?
03:59	scape	channels should not pass nil
03:59	rurumate1	except when closed, no?
04:00	rurumate1	(!< (filter nil? ch)) can return nil
04:00	rurumate1	I'd wager
04:02	rurumate1	alew: maybe one is more lazy, like the difference between next and rest?
04:02	logic_prog	lol
04:02	logic_prog	what a hack
04:04	rurumate1	yeah, there should be a better way. maybe the core.async developers can give a better answer?
04:07	amalloy	alew: drop can return (), nthnext can return nil
04:08	em-dash	where can I put code (e.g., protocol extensions) that I want loaded everywhere? do I have to require it in to every namespace?
04:08	amalloy	uh, protocol extensions only have to be required once
04:13	em-dash	then I'm likely doing something (else) stupid and not yet aware of it
04:15	em-dash	amalloy: hmm, does that hold for clojurescript (I would suppose so)?
04:15	amalloy	indeed
05:09	mattyw	real newbie question here - I've got a list of maps that I'm trying to flatten into one map - but it doesn't work as I expect:
05:09	mattyw	(into {} (map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:09	mattyw	^^ Must be because I've got a lazy list from doing the map call?
05:10	kzar	,(into {} (map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:10	clojurebot	{:a :d}
05:11	kzar	,(map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d))
05:11	clojurebot	({:a :b} {:a :c} {:a :d})
05:11	mischanix	map keys must be unique
05:11	kzar	(apply into {} (map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:11	kzar	,(apply into {} (map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:11	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core/into>
05:12	andyf	(apply merge sequence-of-maps) might be what you want
05:12	kzar	,(apply merge (map (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:12	clojurebot	{:a :d}
05:12	kzar	,(mapcat (fn [x] {:a x}) '(:b :c :d)))
05:12	clojurebot	([:a :b] [:a :c] [:a :d])
05:12	andyf	See also merge-with
05:17	alew	amalloy: thanks, I also discovered nthnext returns a chunkedcons while drop returns a lazyseq
05:18	amalloy	i guess that's truee, but it's too specific
05:18	amalloy	nthnext is eager, while drop is lazy; the particular classes returned are implementation details (and not always the same)
05:21	mattyw	kzar, mischanix thanks very much for your help
05:21	kzar	yw
05:23	alew	amalloy: by eager you mean it realizes the entire sequence? because it doesn't
05:23	amalloy	no, why would i mean that? i mean it eagerly does work the moment you call it
05:24	alew	I misunderstood eager
05:24	amalloy	(nthnext n xs) immediately calls next n times on xs, whereas (drop n xs) returns a lazy sequence that will call next, or rest, as many times as needed
05:25	alew	Ah ok
05:25	amalloy	&(time (do (drop 1e7 (range)) nil))
05:25	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 26.189066 msecs" nil
05:25	amalloy	&(time (do (nthnext 1e7 (range)) nil))
05:25	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Double
05:25	amalloy	&(time (do (nthnext (range) 1e7) nil))
05:25	alew	arg order is swapped
05:25	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 1887.946738 msecs" nil
05:25	alew	right
05:51	honza	Looking for some ideas on how to move from the intermediate Clojure dev to something higher... anyone?
06:05	fredyr	honza: build cool things? :)
06:06	Southy	contribute to an open source project that you think is cool?
06:08	Southy	Look at ClojureScript if you are into Web stuff?
06:09	mischanix	Is there a function for this?
06:09	mischanix	,(let [l '(1 2 3 4 5)] (concat (take 2 l) (nthrest l 3)))
06:09	clojurebot	(1 2 4 5)
06:10	mischanix	Or a proper way to do it?
06:11	Sfiv	mischanix, you mean remove an element?
06:12	mischanix	So to speak, yeah. Get the list without the nth element
06:23	amalloy	mischanix: generally if you want to remove an element by index, your algorithm isn't very functional; if it really is the way you need to do things, you should pick a data structure for which random removal is more efficient than a list or a vector
06:26	amalloy	for example, a set of objects, or a sorted map of some kind, like a map from index to object
06:31	mischanix	amalloy: I'm choosing randomly between all possible user actions. Some of these actions can lead to an invalid state, and that ends up returning nil up to the function that's choosing; when this happens, I'm simply recurring the choose function with the nil-resulting function removed from the possible choices. If there are no choices, choose also returns nil
06:31	amalloy	so use a set
06:32	mischanix	mmkie
06:36	mischanix	Though, how do I pick randomly from a set? Do I end up making it a seq so I can use nth on it?
06:37	mischanix	Is that not wasteful?
06:39	mischanix	Also, there theoretically can't be more than ~20 choices
06:44	rurumate1	I need a shingle-producing function; the input would be a vector like ["the" "big" "black" "box"], output would be all 2-shingles: ["the big" "big black" "black box"]
06:45	rurumate1	is there something to help it, or should just write a loop?
06:45	ddima	rurumate1: partition is your friend
06:45	rurumate1	ddima: thx
06:46	DerGuteMoritz	how does partition help here?
06:46	ddima	,(partition 2 1 ["the" "big" "black" "box"])
06:46	clojurebot	(("the" "big") ("big" "black") ("black" "box"))
06:46	DerGuteMoritz	ah!
06:47	DerGuteMoritz	nice
06:47	DerGuteMoritz	forgot about those arguments
06:49	AeroNotix	In a doto form, can I conditionally apply some of the functions?
06:50	AeroNotix	hmm, I could just put a fn there
07:00	AeroNotix	hm, doesn't seem to call it
07:00	rurumate1	AeroNotix: I've asked myself the same thing, also inside a -> form. Please paste your solution if you find it
07:02	rurumate1	AeroNotix: maybe -<> from swiss-arrows can help?
07:02	AeroNotix	wat
07:02	rurumate1	but the diamond can only appear once per form..
07:02	AeroNotix	oh I see
07:02	AeroNotix	it's a real thing
07:02	rurumate1	I've started a discussion there, wanna join? https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows/issues/22
07:03	clgv	AeroNotix: but there is `as->` as well
07:03	clgv	and that one is in clojure core since 1.5
07:04	clgv	&(doc as->)
07:04	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: as-> in this context
07:04	clgv	,(doc as->)
07:04	clojurebot	"([expr name & forms]); Binds name to expr, evaluates the first form in the lexical context of that binding, then binds name to that result, repeating for each successive form, returning the result of the last form."
07:04	rurumate1	I have no idea what that docstring means. Where are the examples?
07:07	rurumate1	,(as-> 1 x (inc x) (inc x))
07:07	clojurebot	3
07:08	rurumate1	brilliant
07:08	rurumate1	,(as-> 1 x (inc x) (inc (inc x)))
07:08	clojurebot	4
07:08	rurumate1	it's a dream come true
07:09	locks	rurumate1: if only any of the docstrings had examples
07:13	rurumate1	locks: I've heard the clojure maintainers are trying to keep them short. It's okay as long as you can find examles easily via google, but could not find easily for as->
07:14	hcumberdale	(into {} (map (fn [[a b]] (hash-map a b)) '(["1" "a"] ["2" "b"])))
07:14	hcumberdale	is there a better way to do this?
07:15	DerGuteMoritz	,(into {} '(["1" "a"] ["2" "b"]))
07:15	clojurebot	{"1" "a", "2" "b"}
07:15	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: ^
07:15	hcumberdale	DerGuteMoritz: thx, but why does it work?
07:16	hcumberdale	ahh it uses conj and that is working with pairs?
07:16	amalloy	(into x [a b c]) is (conj x a b c)
07:16	amalloy	and conj on a map wants vector pairs
07:16	DerGuteMoritz	indeed
07:16	rurumate1	(conj {} ["a" "b"])
07:16	rurumate1	,(conj {} ["a" "b"])
07:16	clojurebot	{"a" "b"}
07:22	hcumberdale	Also a better way to do: (into {} (map #(hash-map (str (:fieldname1 %)) (:fieldname2 %)) (j/query db [selectstatement]))) ?
07:22	jcromartie	how can I make use of Clojure STM while dealing with external transactions?
07:22	hcumberdale	where j is clojure.java.jdbc
07:23	jcromartie	i.e. outside APIs
07:23	locks	rurumate1: yeah, I guess clojuredocs could serve as an example repo, but it does seem a bit oudated?
07:24	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: one way would be (into {} (map str (map (juxt :fieldname1 fieldname2) (j/query db [selectstatement])))) -- you might consider using ->> here
07:25	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: sorry, that wasn't exactly the same actually
07:26	DerGuteMoritz	or was it :-)
07:26	jcromartie	I obviously can't do external calls inside a dosync
07:26	jcromartie	(HTTP etc)
07:26	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: nah, it's buggy, sorry
07:27	hcumberdale	also thought about using juxt
07:27	hcumberdale	but can't create anything with it that works :(
07:28	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: how about something like (apply hash-map (map str (map (j/query db [selectstatement]) [:fieldname1 :fieldname2])))
07:29	rurumate1	locks: searching for as-> on clojuredocs' search engine gives me only one less-relevant result
07:29	rurumate1	maybe the poor search performance is a factor why it's not being used so much?
07:30	hcumberdale	DerGuteMoritz: changes everything to strings, doesn't it?
07:30	rurumate1	or maybe it really has no example for as->, which would be sad
07:31	hcumberdale	(map (j/query db [selectstatement]) [:fieldname1 :fieldname2])) << don't know that this is actually working
07:31	amalloy	(into {} (map (juxt (comp str :field1) :field2) (j/query ...))) looks equivalent to the originalm hcumberdale
07:31	DerGuteMoritz	hcumberdale: oh yeah sorry, I misread your original version
07:32	hcumberdale	thx amalloy!
07:32	amalloy	hashmap is a function you should almost never apply - into {} just works better so often
07:33	DerGuteMoritz	ah, right, query returns a list of maps
07:33	DerGuteMoritz	zing
07:33	DerGuteMoritz	ok I should not do this on the side :-)
07:34	rurumate1	,(as-> 1 x (inc x) (inc (inc x)) (or (odd? x) (as-> 1 y y)))
07:34	clojurebot	1
07:34	rurumate1	smashing
07:36	sm0ke	guys how do i compare this?
07:36	sm0ke	,(= {:a 0.4} {:a 0.4})
07:36	clojurebot	true
07:36	sm0ke	,(= {:a 0.4 :b 0.7} {:a 0.4 :b .7})
07:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: .7 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:36	sm0ke	,(= {:a 0.4 :b 0.7} {:a 0.4 :b 0.7})
07:36	clojurebot	true
07:36	sm0ke	err
07:37	rurumate1	you're comparing it well imho
07:38	sm0ke	well wtf
07:38	sm0ke	let me check again
07:40	rurumate1	recur will never consume the stack, even when used without loop, right?
07:42	rurumate1	(when the enclosing function is used as recursion point)
07:42	rurumate1	,((fn [x] (if (< x 10000) (recur (inc x)) x)) 1)
07:42	clojurebot	10000
07:43	sm0ke	yes recur is optimized
07:43	sm0ke	so i was asking this ##(= 0.7 (float 0.7))
07:43	lazybot	⇒ false
07:43	sm0ke	so i was asking this ##(== 0.7 (float 0.7))
07:43	lazybot	⇒ false
07:43	sm0ke	so i was asking this ##(=== 0.7 (float 0.7))
07:43	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: === in this context
07:43	sm0ke	hmm weird
07:44	rurumate1	floats are weird
07:44	sm0ke	jeez this will make unit testing hard
07:44	sm0ke	whats the dfault thingy?
07:44	sm0ke	,(type 0.1)
07:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Double
07:45	rurumate1	smoke, usually when unit testing with floats, you specify a margin of error, e.g. 0.000001
07:46	rurumate1	see http://junit.sourceforge.net/javadoc/org/junit/Assert.html#assertEquals%28double,%20double,%20double%29
07:46	clgv	sm0ke: comparing floating points numbers via equality is seldom right.
07:46	clgv	maybe deterministic testing is the only exception.
07:47	sm0ke	clgv: what do you mean?
07:47	clgv	otherwise you always want to know if two floating point numbers are approximately the same , i.e. have only a difference of at most epsiolon (being a small constant, e.g. 1E-10)
07:50	sm0ke	well i cannot have a epsilon based testing as i am comparing deeply nested maps
07:52	gnzh	hi guys, is there any way to stub function behaviour in midje using another function? I want function in my tests to behave like identity function.
07:52	clgv	gnzh: you can do that via (provided ...) for regular functions
07:52	good1	Hi there, what's the proper way to accomplish this CL code in clojure?
07:53	good1	(let ((foo '())
07:53	good1	(bar '(1 2 3)))
07:53	good1	(dolist (x bar)
07:53	good1	(setf foo (cons x foo)))
07:53	good1	foo)
07:53	gnzh	clgv, can you provide simple example? (provided (a s) => s) doesn't work
07:54	clgv	gnzh: but it should. is `a` defined via `defn` ?
07:55	clgv	gnzh: `provided` does not work for protocol methods on regular deftypes/defrecords afair
07:55	gnzh	clgv, it just function, nothing fancy
07:58	gnzh	clgv, I'm not sure that what I wan't is possible to implement
08:02	clgv	gnzh: this works (fact (f 1 2) => 3 (provided (a 1) => 1 :times 1 (a 2) => 2 :times 1)), but I am not sure if you can achieve a general identity function
08:03	gnzh	clgv, well i don't want to stub manually all possible inputs
08:03	clgv	yeah I guessed that
08:04	clgv	gnzh: there is clojure.core/with-redefs
08:08	gnzh	clgv, thanks, that works. I was hoping that midje can provide cleaner way.
08:08	fredyr	good1: this is pretty similar perhaps
08:09	fredyr	good1: making a gist instead of pasting
08:09	fredyr	good1: https://gist.github.com/fredyr/8399958
08:10	good1	fredyr: You're right sorry!
08:10	clgv	good1: what is the task in general? build a list from a list? concatenation of two lists?
08:11	clgv	good1: ##(concat [1 2 3] [])
08:11	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
08:12	fredyr	clgv: if i understand correctly, the CL code was reverse with an accumulator
08:12	fredyr	pop and cons
08:14	good1	I am trying to get a new list (foo in this case) so that i can us dstinct to remove duplicates!
08:14	fredyr	good1: oh in that case
08:14	fredyr	you alway get new lists in clojure
08:15	fredyr	since they're immutable
08:16	fredyr	,(distinct [1 2 3 3 4 6 4])
08:16	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 6)
08:16	good1	fredyr: Thank you!
08:17	fredyr	good1: np
08:29	nones	hi
08:29	I_play_2_win	hi
08:30	nones	is there ways to get current imported namespaces?
08:30	clgv	good1: you should read about Clojure's immutable/persistent datatypes. you never need to copy clojure datastructures to be able to use the unmodified and modified structure after that
08:34	rurumate1	immutability is a no-brainer unless you're used to doing it wrong
08:35	clgv	well he obviously is not used to it and seems to not know about it, so no reason to insult him
08:37	good1	clgv: Exactly! That was my problem, i see clearly now.
08:37	rurumate1	sorry I didn't want to sound rude
08:37	rurumate1	it's just that people seem to think it's a hard concept simply because there is this funny word
08:38	clgv	good1: as always, I'd recommend to read one of the clojure books to get you fast on track
08:38	rurumate1	where in reality there should be a complicated word for NOT using immutable structures
08:38	clgv	rurumate1: well, it's different from what most are used to from industry/mainstream (C/C++, Java)
08:38	rurumate1	like, "destructive programming"
08:39	rurumate1	clgv: I'm painfully aware of that
08:45	ddima	nones: maybe you can try something like (.getAliases (find-ns 'clojure.core)) (or .getMappings, depending on what you want to see)
08:48	nones	ddima: thanks, I'll search in that direction
08:48	ddima	nones: though in the case of current namespace you might use (the-ns ns)
08:49	ddima	oh
08:49	ddima	you dont even need the-ns then
08:49	ddima	k
08:49	nones	,ns
08:49	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
08:50	nones	yes
08:52	ddima	nones: thought, forget the manual method-calling, there's ns-imports, ns-aliases, ns-refers etc
08:52	ddima	-t
08:52	AeroNotix	I want to use assert-args, is there a public replacement?
08:52	AeroNotix	since assert-args is private.
08:53	nones	ddima: yes, I already found them
08:53	ddima	ahk. I was just poking around myself, just to see what exists, so
09:00	tbaldridge	AeroNotix: it's open source, so you could always copy what's in core.clj
09:01	clgv	AeroNotix: you can create a public `def` to that private function, e.g. (def assert-args #'clojure.core/assert-args)
09:01	clgv	or macro...
09:09	gtrak	et voila.
09:22	AeroNotix	hmm
09:33	edw	Anyone happen to know the currently least deprecated, least painful way of recursively deleting a directory?
09:37	edbond	edw, commons io has deleteDirectory - http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-io/apidocs/org/apache/commons/io/FileUtils.html#deleteDirectory%28java.io.File%29
09:38	edw	edbond: I was reading in the list archives that delete-file-recursively got the axe because Java 6 cannot tell between a symlink and a real file. I'm guessing the Commons code has the same problem.
09:39	edw	I'm going to non-recursively delete a single level of files, since what I'm working with (Cascading local textline files) have only a depth of one.
09:39	edbond	it seems commons.io skips symlinks, see source http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-io/apidocs/src-html/org/apache/commons/io/FileUtils.html#line.1550
09:40	edw	edbond: Huh. Let me check that out then!
09:40	edbond	edw, did you look at file-seq? You can list files, filter and call #delete
09:41	edw	edbond: That's what I'm doing. Just reversing the sequence and deleting each file.
09:45	edw	edbond: https://www.refheap.com/23322
09:46	edbond	edw, looks good. It does remove recursively, right?
09:46	edw	edbond: Yeah, for better or worse.
09:46	edbond	edw, I don't understand how you want to improve that
09:47	edw	Scary having a very easy-to-use "rm -rf...".
09:47	edw	edbond: Oh, I just wrote that since asking my original question.
09:48	edbond	you can add a global filter to remove only in working-directory
09:49	edbond	or not remove at all, move somewhere to /tmp/<timestamp> :)
09:50	edw	edbond: I was looking at the code you referred me to, and, yeah, if you filtered based on the canonical name, removing only those files that are inside the canonical name of the directory you're deleting.
09:50	edw	...then you'd be a lot safe.
09:50	edw	s/safe/safer/
09:55	deadghost	good morning #clojure
09:55	deadghost	how are you today
09:56	hyPiRion	silent, mostly.
10:05	mikerod	I'm guessing that a .cljx source file cannot be compiled via clojure-maven-plugin ( from https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx ) .
10:14	edbond	om question: what is the difference bw set-state! and transact! ?
10:17	fredyr	edbond: transact and update work on the the om state via cursors
10:17	fredyr	edbond: set-state updates the react state
10:18	fredyr	edbond: the latter is same as doing setState on a normal react component
10:18	edbond	cursor is like pointer in react state?
10:18	fredyr	yes pretty much
10:18	fredyr	edbond: denoting a particular sub state
10:19	edbond	how can I (should I) convert map to cursor? I have a go block that set-state! and om says 'cannot build from non-cursor'
10:20	edbond	I call set-state in go block and got that 'non-cursor' error
10:20	fredyr	edbond: not exactly sure
10:20	fredyr	edbond: but do you create your om state in the om/root
10:21	edbond	yes, initial state is defined in om/root. Let me try refheap
10:21	fredyr	edbond: sure
10:24	edbond	fredyr, here is a code - https://www.refheap.com/23335
10:24	edbond	I misuse build-all I think
10:25	edbond	added w-row functions to refheap
10:26	edbond	I'm totally lost in components and state :)
10:28	fredyr	edbond: im not really following where load-watchlist come into play here
10:28	fredyr	edbond: and that's the only place i can see a set-state call?
10:28	edbond	ah, it's called from will-mount
10:29	fredyr	ah okay, in watchlist-table?
10:29	edbond	yes, I updated paste
10:30	fredyr	so in your code now, you only have the top level cursor
10:30	fredyr	`state` coming into watchlist-table
10:31	edbond	yes, how can I create cursors to some key in that state?
10:31	fredyr	you create new components using build
10:32	fredyr	with `build` you can take the current state and specify a path to say which "substate" corresponds to that component
10:33	fredyr	edbond: here's an example, https://github.com/swannodette/todomvc/blob/gh-pages/labs/architecture-examples/om/src/todomvc/app.cljs#L160
10:34	fredyr	edbond: oh, i might be wrong here
10:34	fredyr	edbond: the api has changed a bit since last i tried some code on it
10:38	edbond	fredyr, Thanks, I'll dig more into todomvc
10:38	fredyr	edbond: sure, i would've digged more into it as well, but i have to get back to work unfortunately :)
10:39	fredyr	before you could use it like this: (om/build comment-list app {:path []})
10:40	fredyr	where the last part was a path that was used similar to get-in and update-in
10:40	fredyr	but now im not sure
10:43	fredyr	:s
10:43	mrhanky	anybody used the servants library? does every function used in the worker need a defservantfn ?
11:00	gfredericks	what's the current situation for round-tripping clojure code?
11:01	gfredericks	(in the sense of parsing the code into a data structure and printing it back out)
11:05	nDuff	gfredericks: ...okay, now I'm curious too. I'm sure I've seen a library built for the purpose (retaining reader metadata &c), but I'm having trouble finding it.
11:08	stuartsierra	I think cgrand had some experimental stuff for that.
11:10	hyPiRion	Are you guys talking about rewrite-clj?
11:10	hyPiRion	(https://github.com/xsc/rewrite-clj)
11:10	karls	a question about protocols: say i define a protocol in a namespace A and then want to use a method declared in that protocol in a different namespace B. i don't understand the mechanism that allows me to require the protocol namespace A and then do A/some-desired-method. can someone explain this quickly?
11:13	`cbp	karls: you want an explanation on how it works or how you're supposed to use it?
11:13	karls	how it works
11:14	karls	does defprotocol somehow make that method available in the namespace the protocol was declared in?
11:14	gfredericks	stuartsierra: hyPiRion: thanks!
11:14	`cbp	karls: you might wanna look at the source? :P
11:15	matt444	lein-cljsbuild documentation is a little week, how do you get it to bundle your external javascript dependencies?
11:15	matt444	I'm doing: :libs ["lib/base64.js"]
11:15	stuartsierra	karls: Protocol methods are real Clojure functions. You can require/refer them just like any other function defined in that namespace.
11:15	matt444	and it doesn't work
11:19	nDuff	matt444: :libs takes a list of directories, not files.
11:19	karls	aha! that clears things up. thanks `cbp and stuartsierra
11:19	nDuff	matt444: (at least, as I follow the example docs)
11:19	nDuff	matt444: ...beyond that, (1) are you sure the 3rd-party library in question survives the Closure Compiler? (2) Is a reproducer available?
11:19	matt444	nDuff: are those javascript files or clojurescript?
11:20	matt444	nDuff: lein-cljsbuild doesn't complain
11:20	nDuff	matt444: the former.
11:21	nDuff	matt444: "doesn't complain" isn't the same as "leaves your code in a runnable state when it's done".
11:21	matt444	my code is in a runnable state
11:21	nDuff	matt444: keep in mind that it's not cljsbuild that does the (potential) mangling here, it's Google Closure.
11:21	nDuff	matt444: uhh. If your output included a runnable copy of the third-party library in question, you wouldn't be complaining (if I correctly understand the question).
11:22	matt444	ahh, misunderstood the question
11:22	matt444	No, my output doesn't contain the third-party library
11:22	nDuff	matt444: Which level of optimization are you using?
11:22	matt444	none
11:22	nDuff	Then I'd need a reproducer to investigate with.
11:23	matt444	k
11:23	nDuff	(someone like dnolen might have an off-the-top-of-their-head answer, but I'm not...)
11:23	matt444	nDuff: do you happen to know the diff between :extern and :libs
11:23	matt444	:externs i mean
11:23	nDuff	matt444: :externs takes a set of headers and uses them to avoid name-mangling.
11:23	nDuff	matt444: it doesn't actually include those libraries into the output
11:24	nDuff	matt444: it just makes sure your output will be able to successfully call things having those headers.
11:24	nDuff	matt444: that's actually how I've always done interaction with third-party libraries -- I've never used :libs
11:24	matt444	so then how do you include them?
11:24	nDuff	matt444: ...from the same place I'm including the javascript that cljsbuild emits?
11:25	matt444	ok, i don't understand what you mean
11:25	matt444	cljsbuild emits javascript that it compiles from clojurescript
11:26	nDuff	the what and why of :externs is documented at https://developers.google.com/closure/compiler/docs/api-tutorial3#mixed
11:28	matt444	ok, I have a example project, where should I upload it?
11:29	nDuff	matt444: github is always good. refheap, gist, &c.
11:31	TimMc	hyPiRion: Do you think you can get ahold of eval in swearjurescript?
11:31	hyPiRion	TimMc: wish I could
11:31	nDuff	matt444: ...to restate what I was trying to communicate above -- I don't directly include external libraries into cljsbuild's output, and don't try to. I pull them into the document or runtime being invoked the same way I'm pulling in cljsbuild's output.
11:31	TimMc	hyPiRion: I feel like there should be a way to iterate over the properties of something.
11:32	hyPiRion	TimMc: Only way I've discovered yet is by iterating the metadata of a ns
11:32	nDuff	matt444: AFAIK, the mechanisms for including raw javascript into cljsbuild's output all require that javascript to be written in such a way as to be compliant with the Closure Compiler's specifications.
11:32	nDuff	matt444: ...and, well, rather a lot of 3rd-party code isn't.
11:32	matt444	nDuff: ok thanks, script tags it is
11:32	Uruk	Question from a new user - what's the best idiomatic way to loop across/map across a java object array []? I'm looking at the amap docs and that looks right, but not sure what the ^arguments are about.
11:33	nDuff	matt444: ...if you're going to turn on advanced-mode compilation eventually, you'll need to use :externs.
11:33	llasram	Uruk: Just use `map` unless you have specific need (known performance issue)
11:33	matt444	ok, i will when i get there, thanks again
11:33	llasram	Uruk: All JVM arrays are `seq`able, so the normal Clojure sequence functions work on them just fine
11:34	sveri	hi, how would i add n-times the same element to a collection? (defn addXtoXsNTimes [xs x n]...
11:34	llasram	sveri: (into xs (repeat n x)) ?
11:35	dnolen	matt444: if you have some random JS that won't play with Google Closure you can use :preamble now
11:36	sveri	llasram: thx, i try thaqt
11:36	nDuff	Ooh, nice.
11:37	matt444	dnolen: what does preamble do?
11:37	dnolen	matt444: it just concatenates files to the beginning of the final output
11:37	matt444	perfect, thanks
11:38	TimMc	hyPiRion: To clarify, this also applies to CLJS?
11:38	hyPiRion	TimMc: oh, that really depends I guess?
11:38	hyPiRion	You need to be able to use ns-map on namespaces
11:39	TimMc	I think JS exposes some new things that CLJ doesn't provide, like being able to iterate over the properties of things.
11:39	dnolen	matt444: CLJS React users share this problem - you might find the dev and prod build settings described here useful http://github.com/swannodette/om
11:40	matt444	i'm a cljs react user :)
11:40	matt444	thanks
11:41	hyPiRion	TimMc: hm, interesting
11:42	hyPiRion	anyway, the way I get eval in clj is by doing something like this
11:42	hyPiRion	,(-> #'+ meta (#((`[~@%]())())) ns-map (#((`[~@%]((+()())(+()())(+()())(+()())(+()())(+()())(-((+()())(+()())(+()(+()())))())))(*))))
11:42	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/eval
11:42	hyPiRion	it works better in clojure 1.0 because of the meta reader (^), so I only need ns-map by then
11:43	TimMc	No vars in cljs, I think.
11:43	hyPiRion	TimMc: right, ns stuff is compile time? Not worked with cljs
11:43	bbloom	hyPiRion: right
11:43	TimMc	Neither have I. :-P
11:43	bbloom	probably can do some hackery with aget and window
11:43	matt444	@dnolen using cloact right now but plan on trying om
11:43	hyPiRion	heh
11:44	hyPiRion	TimMc: Alright, we have a decent challenge then :p
11:44	TimMc	I think I can do it all with just "window".
11:45	dnolen	matt444: nice Cloact looks pretty cool.
11:46	TimMc	Hmm, maybe not. I can make "eval", but I can't just grab it off of window as easily as I could a map in CLJ.
11:49	ro_st	cemerick: thanks for all your awesome work on cljsbuild and cljx. can you tell me if it's possible to using both plugins' hooks in a project to get the auto build mode for each of them? or do i have to `lein cljx auto` and `lein cljsbuild auto` separately?
11:50	ro_st	i'm hoping i can somehow get a repl and both auto modes in a single jvm
11:53	Uruk	What am I doing wrong here? I have a java array; (alength my-array) returns 28. I'm doing this: (map my-array (defn blah [x] (do-some-stuff-with x))) -- and the inner function blah is not getting called.
11:53	klrr	are there any intro to clojure for people new to java?
11:54	ro_st	you need to realise the result; map is lazy. wrap the (map) in (doall)
11:54	ro_st	also
11:54	chronno	Uruk: also, defn is intended to be used as a top-level form
11:54	ro_st	instead of defn, just fn
11:55	ro_st	defn also places a var in the current ns
11:55	Uruk	klrr: try this -- http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips#Clojure_for_Java_Programmers
11:55	ro_st	so (fn [x]) rather than (defn blah [x])
11:55	Uruk	ro_st: so fn is same form as defn, but without method name (anonymous fn)?
11:55	ro_st	correct
11:55	Uruk	gotcha. Old hat to the concepts, completly new to clojure syntax
11:55	ro_st	defn is actuall just sugar around (def blah (fn …))
11:56	Uruk	so but the syntax is (map array function) and NOT (map function array) correct?
11:56	ro_st	http://www.braveclojure.com/ http://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up
11:56	Wild_Cat	just checking, is there a difference between (defn- foo ...) and (defn -foo ...) ?
11:56	ro_st	that's right Uruk
11:56	ro_st	Wild_Cat: defn- marks the fn as ^:private metadata
11:56	ro_st	-foo is just a var name starting with -
11:57	klrr	so there are no resources for people who want to learn clojure and utiliaze java interop but with no previous java knowledge?
11:57	ro_st	conventionally used in 'internal' protocols and such
11:57	Wild_Cat	ro_st: OK, so what's the purpose of the latter? I've seen it a couple times, but can't grasp what it's used for?
11:57	ro_st	klrr: java interop is pretty minimal. clojure.org/java_interop
11:58	klrr	do you need to know java in-depth to utiliaze it?
11:58	ro_st	no java knowledge: there must be loads of info out there :-) it's a fairly popular language
11:58	ro_st	i'm ok and i've never written any java. lots of other similar things, but not java itself
11:58	klrr	okey
11:59	nDuff	Wild_Cat: the cases you've seen it probably have been situations where gen-class is used with its default settings
11:59	ro_st	pick one of the links above and go through it. you'll learn enough to get moving
11:59	klrr	do you need to know OOP to utilize it is it just to call functions from java?
11:59	Wild_Cat	nDuff: probably, yeah
11:59	nDuff	Wild_Cat: ...where the prefix it's expecting for functions exposed to Java is -
11:59	ro_st	gotta run
12:00	Wild_Cat	nDuff: ah, I see. Thanks.
12:00	Uruk	Clojure java interop -- good documentation: http://clojure.org/java_interop
12:12	mikerod	Hmm, looks like the latest counter clockwise 0.22.0 stable doesn't upgrade in (my) Eclipse; with error concerning: Missing requirement: Counterclockwise Fragment for Eclipse 4 0.22.0 (ccw.core.e4 0.22.0) requires 'bundle org.eclipse.e4.core.contexts 1.3.1' but it could not be found Cannot satisfy dependency:
12:13	mikerod	anyone familiar with that one?
12:13	clgv	mikerod: upgrade worked just fine this morning
12:15	mikerod	clgv: What Eclipse version? I am dealing with version 4.2.1 here I believe
12:16	mikerod	I came across a similar error on 0.21.0 @ http://marketplace.eclipse.org/content/error/report/1414545
12:16	clgv	from 0.20
12:17	clgv	I upgraded on two computers so far with no problems from 0.20.0
12:20	mikerod	I'm coming form 0.12.3 stable
12:20	mikerod	I don't see where this version fits in the pattern
12:20	clgv	mikerod: oh. maybe thats the reason
12:21	mikerod	does this need to be deleted perhaps?
12:21	clgv	clean install, or try to install 0.20.0 before 0.22.0
12:21	mikerod	hmm ok
12:21	mikerod	thanks for advice, I'll try it out
12:21	clgv	I'd go for "clean eclipse install"
12:21	clgv	there were changes on the update site which might be the reason for your problem
12:22	mikerod	ok, that's what I am planning on trying
12:22	mikerod	I noticed the site seems to have changed
12:22	clgv	yes indeed
12:23	clgv	good luck (should work) I gotta go
12:23	mikerod	cool, thanks
12:25	zerokarmaleft	what's with the inconsistency URL-parsing between java.sql.DriverManager/getConnection and clojure.java.jdbc/with-connection?
12:28	zerokarmaleft	seems like I have to dance b/w strings...e.g. "jdbc:postgresql:<subname>" vs "jdbc:postgres://<host>/<subname>"
12:32	turbopape	Hi guys,
12:33	turbopape	I have a project that litterally makes heavy use of java interop,
12:33	turbopape	any bad or good vibes you mind sharing in doing projects that basically are like writing java in clojure ?
12:34	technomancy	turbopape: if you can isolate all the interop to a handful of namespaces it makes things a lot more tidy
12:34	technomancy	possibly not always practical, but it's more pleasant
12:35	turbopape	okay, but can we fairly say, that this is not where clojure shines technomancy ?
12:35	turbopape	I mean, all of this importing and implicit casting,...
12:36	turbopape	Do I pay a huge price for that ?
12:36	technomancy	it's still a hell of a lot nicer than doing it in Java if that's what you mean
12:37	gfredericks	turbopape: more opportunity for refactoring via macros compared to java
12:37	turbopape	technomancy I am sure, that's why I don't want to leave Clojure world :)
12:38	gfredericks	areduce is a good example of using macros to sane-ify low-level things
12:38	technomancy	I guess the question is whether it's practical to do the bulk of your work in terms of immutable values
12:39	turbopape	Yes technomancy cc gfredericks .
12:39	turbopape	It is basically a mahout project
12:39	turbopape	it uses their arrays, etc...
12:40	turbopape	And I'm afraid of the shift, so... besides, after googling, you don't see much people do mahout in clojure
12:40	turbopape	but you find couple using mahout via scala, for instance,
12:40	turbopape	so that's why I asked !
12:40	llasram	turbopape: I'm using it some. Mostly the vector and matrix impl
12:41	turbopape	llasram and are you okay with the shift code-wise and performance-wise ?
12:41	llasram	turbopape: I've got a 95% finished core.matrix implementation in terms of Mahout, but honestly mostly am using the Mahout API fairly directly, because startup time for core.matrix is a beast
12:42	llasram	turbopape: Yeah, it isn't too bad. I've got a small wrapper lib for doing a few of the most-common operations w/o hinting and letting you use IFns and Mahout Double/DoubleFunctions
12:43	llasram	I mostly do mutation w/in `reduce` loops, so I'm getting the benefits of mutable vectors, but the mutation is hidden across interface boundaries
12:43	turbopape	How heavy java projects compare, say, to scala , llasram ? cc technomancy ?
12:44	llasram	I'm afraid I don't understand your question :-)
12:44	technomancy	eh I've never actually written java; no idea
12:44	rurumate	turbopape: I don't know what mahout does exactly, but I've made friends with cascalog, which is pure clojure
12:45	rurumate	maybe it's worth a look for you
12:45	llasram	rurumate: Er. It's built on Cascading, which shows through if you work with it a lot / deeply. For something much closer to "pure Clojure on Hadoop" check out https://github.com/damballa/parkour/
12:46	rurumate	hmm that's news
12:46	turbopape	llasram, technomancy rurumate : it's okay guys :) I need mahout for the machine learning algorithms, hadoop is just a backend there...
12:47	llasram	turbopape: For that it can vary quite a bit. Some things like the SSVD implementation are pretty flexible -- get your data in the right shape and you can essentially just invoke it
12:47	rurumate	llasram: methinks it's a "good thing" being based on cascading
12:48	turbopape	I ask about scala as a fall back option : if it is a better java, and if I unfortunately need to write some raw java, just to benefit from "simpler interop", can something like scala save me ?
12:48	llasram	turbopape: For the classification and clustering algorithms, you end up needing to descend into a deep morass of partially-documented interfaces
12:48	turbopape	and can I interop with Clojure ?
12:48	turbopape	llasram, ok. any pure Clojure options you heard about ?
12:48	turbopape	for ML ?
12:49	llasram	rurumate: Depends on what you're doing. If you have a lot of joins, it helps. If not, in my experience it is a liability
12:49	dnolen	I don't suppose anyone's done a CSS grammar for Instaparse?
12:50	llasram	turbopape: It really depends on your needs. Weka has reasonable implementations of some algos if your data isn't too large. There's special-purpose libraries for doing SVMs like libsvm. Clojure-specific, I'm not aware of much
12:51	rurumate	llasram: I do some joins, yes. Have you tried a join in parkour?
12:51	llasram	But ML algorithms are just algorithms -- rolling your own is always an option
12:52	turbopape	yeah llasram ... that would also be an option...
12:52	llasram	rurumate: It depends on the join. Doing a "replicated" join is trivial just by directly loading your replicated data from the distributed cache. Doing a reduce-side join where you know one or both sides will fit in RAM is simple.
12:53	llasram	Parkour has no direct support for Cascading-style reduce-side joins with arbitrary numbers of records on both sides, but IMHO those are a huge anti-pattern, and you should re-write any job depending on them
12:55	rurumate	llasram: well in the joins I do, usually both inputs are over 10 GB so would not try to fit any of them in memory / distributed cache
12:55	rurumate	but access to distibuted cache is a plus for parkour, yes
12:55	llasram	rurumate: For the reduce-side "fit in RAM" I meant for an individual grouping key
12:56	rurumate	oh. well then, got any example code?
12:56	llasram	For joins? Not yet, but I should add one to the Parkour examples
12:56	riley526	For somebody familiar with Backbone for typical JS applications, is it worth trying to shoehorn Backbone in to ClojureScript for the REST-y models? Better alternatives?
12:56	rurumate	yes please
12:57	rurumate	joins are super useful
12:57	rurumate	they are what drove me from clojure-hadoop to cascalog
13:03	bbloom	riley526: i'd definitely not use backbone w/ cljs, since what backbone does is so hilariously simple you can just recreate it yourself in a few dozen lines using our proper immutable data structures
13:03	dnolen	riley526: there's going to be significant impedance mismatch
13:04	dnolen	riley526: integration with React and Angular.js seems to involve less friction
13:05	riley526	dnolen: I've never used Angular though. You think the data model meshes with cljs?
13:05	dnolen	riley526: I can't say myself, but people seem to like using it with CLJS
13:05	katox	I'd recommend to start with something like react ;)
13:06	riley526	dnolen: Ok I'll look into it
13:06	riley526	bbloom, dnolen: thanks guys
13:06	riley526	katox: The question is really about syncing models via REST, which Backbone does and React has nothing to do with.
13:07	katox	riley526: angular is a mutation in a box, I can't image how to make that simple
13:07	dnolen	riley526: but routing isn't a particularly complex thing, there's an opportunity to construct something generic here for the ClojureScript community
13:08	katox	riley526: you need to put everything into angular scope and broadcast + watch everything
13:09	katox	riley526: the mismatch is right in the core
13:09	riley526	katox: yeah I hear you
13:09	katox	riley526: that doesn't mean that angular isn't _very_ productive in js itself
13:09	dnolen	riley526: I personally prefer React myself, but I don't know Angular.js well enough to have an informed opinion - from the outside seems overly complex
13:11	katox	it is complex once you dive into directives
13:12	katox	I've never wrapped my head around when I'm inside and when I'm outside of angular processing
13:12	riley526	dnolen: how do you typically handle syncing data if all you're using is React? or do you even have that need?
13:13	cespare	Is visualvm the state of the art for clojure profiling?
13:13	riley526	I mean I could always right an ajax request for every endpoint
13:13	riley526	But that's been solved before for JS.
13:17	nDuff	cespare: YourKit is also pretty awesome.
13:18	dnolen	riley526: I would probably write a simple router
13:19	nDuff	cespare: ...unfortunately, they only occasionally offer personal licenses (at less than full price) -- they had that running for a bit this month, but it looks like the window closed.
13:19	cespare	nDuff: would it supplant or supplement visualvm?
13:20	nDuff	...waitaminute, today's the 13th, so that should still be open.
13:20	nDuff	cespare: full replacement.
13:20	cespare	nDuff: s'ok, i'm sure my company will buy it if it's useful
13:21	Wild_Cat	dakrone: just submitted a clj-http pull request for the {:as :json-strict} we talked about the other day.
13:21	dakrone	Wild_Cat: great!
13:22	cespare	nDuff: can it operate from the commandline? Or at least collect a profile that way? Right now I'm using visualvm over ssh -X and it's quite painful
13:22	Wild_Cat	dakrone: this is my first non-basic-typo pull request to a Clojure project, so be sure to review it thoroughly before merging :p
13:22	dakrone	Wild_Cat: will do
13:22	nDuff	cespare: yes, collection can happen via CLI only, or over a socket.
13:22	nDuff	cespare: ...I'm surprised you can't do that with VisualVM too.
13:24	cespare	nDuff: alright, thanks for the suggestion. I'll check it out.
13:24	katox	does anyone know what's the current state of cider regarding cljs?
13:24	dnolen	katox: seems like people are working on improving it
13:26	cespare	nDuff: are you aware of a way to generate a blocking profile?
13:26	cespare	the profilers i've found generate cpu and memory profiles only
13:26	katox	dnolen: good to hear, what'll be next? code completion or even evals?
13:27	dnolen	katox: gtrak is working on code completion, evals would be really simple
13:27	katox	dnolen: awesome!
13:28	cemerick	katox: evals? Like, a REPL?
13:28	dnolen	katox: the ClojureScript analyzer exposes a lot of information, cider support could be awesome
13:28	katox	cemerick: I got REPL working, thank to your austin
13:29	cemerick	katox: ok, good. What do you mean by 'evals', then?
13:29	katox	cemerick: buffer-to-repl connection
13:30	katox	cemerick: I can eval stuff from clj into the repl, not the same from cljs
13:30	nDuff	cespare: "blocking" meaning lock contention?
13:31	cespare	nDuff: yes
13:31	nDuff	cespare: intrinsic locks it handles. Not sure about higher-level primitives.
13:33	katox	another super cool thing would be inspectable repl results
13:34	katox	light table has this gratis because of chrome developer tools
13:34	katox	but I'm on debian so I'll have to wait for 0.6 a bit to try it out
13:36	cemerick	katox: still not sure what you mean; you should be able to evaluate files, top-levels, and individual expressions directly into ClojureScript from cider
13:36	cemerick	worksforme, anywa
13:37	katox	cemerick: ok, then I have my setup broken in some ways
13:37	cemerick	katox: Either that, or something has changed in cider (I'm still using nrepl.el, and C-M-x and C-c C-k both work well)
13:39	katox	cemerick: not sure, but cider is trying to send the eval to clj not cljs repl, so it bombs out
13:40	katox	cemerick: the repl itself is fine though I can get new stuff into it via cljsbuild auto
13:45	cemerick	katox: yeah, that's broken somehow
13:45	cemerick	I'll bet cider is wrapping the expressions to be evaluated with its own (Clojure-only) code. Filing a bug would be appropriate.
13:47	katox	cemerick: yeah, it could be something like that... I need to update to latest cider before filing a bug report though ;)
13:47	katox	cemerick: did you try with the latest cider or was that a guess?
13:48	cemerick	katox: total guess; sorry, I (foolishly) assumed you were already running the latest
13:49	katox	cemerick: I'm running some very recent, but not the very latest
13:57	cemerick	katox: ok; well, I'll be rebuilding my environment later this month, so cider will be fully cljs / Austin / piggieback-capable one way or the other. :-)
14:06	katox	cemerick: okay, I updated and it certainly did something
14:07	katox	cemerick: I got one command through (defn eval) but now I'm looking at frozen emacs ;)
14:07	katox	cemerick: but at least it can differentiate between clj and cljs buffer
14:10	loliveira	Can I use http-kit without calling httpkit/run-server? I am using lein ring server-headless to start the server and I believe I can't change it.
14:10	technomancy	uuuuuuse lein-run with a -maaaaaaaaain
14:12	shep-werk	technomancy: instructions not clear; stuck in ceiling
14:12	loliveira	technomancy: I need to create a war file. I can't run "lein-run" in our production. =(
14:13	katox	cemerick: but it seems to be (sort of) working, good, certainly not worse than before
14:13	technomancy	loliveira: oh, bummer =(
14:14	loliveira	=(
14:15	loliveira	technomancy: so.. no http-kit inside a war file?
14:15	technomancy	sorry, I've never used http-kit or war files
14:17	wink	WAR! Hoo! What is it good for? YAY! Absolutely.. nothing!
14:17	katox	dnolen: what's the intent of saving state on every change in wrap-form-element in om?
14:17	squidz	how can I apply a funciton with variable arguments to a number of vectors and that returns a vector of each corresponding result? Example: (+ args) with [[1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3]] ===>>> [3 6 9]
14:18	loliveira	technomancy: thank you.
14:18	dnolen	katox: our requestAnimationFrame model doesn't play well with form elements, this is just a hack to fix it
14:18	dnolen	katox: "doesn't play well with React form elements"
14:19	squidz	nvm I found you just pass map to apply as a second argument
14:20	katox	dnolen: I though that it's there just to force a refresh if there is no change on app-state atom
14:20	dnolen	katox: no
14:21	loliveira	wink: We are java software house. They decided that all apps must be delivered as war file. Corp stuff. =/
14:22	wink	loliveira: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bA9FYB8HY#t=0m55s in case oyu missed the joke ;)
14:22	loliveira	wink: =)
14:22	tbaldridge	"You-all"
14:25	loliveira	wink: thank you. I believe the reason for such restriction is that war files are "web scale". =) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs
14:25	wink	lol
14:26	egghead	lol war file deployments
14:37	justin_smith	loliveira seems to be gone, but you don't need a war file on production, an uberjar plus java -jar works just fine
14:37	justin_smith	and yes, lein on production should not be done
14:37	TimMc	I've got the build gremlins from hell over here.
14:38	TimMc	When I run against a dependency pulled from a jar repository, I get one behavior, but when I lein install the same git tag I get different behavior.
14:38	TimMc	I compared the JARs and everything is identical except for some minor stuff in pom.xml and manifest.mf.
14:39	ipostelnik	can someone explain the difference between (nil?) function and #(= nil %)
14:40	joegallo	the difference is a few characters of typing
14:40	Wild_Cat	ipostelnik: they do the same thing
14:40	Wild_Cat	(nil?) is nicer because it tells whoever's reading your code your intent much more succintly.
14:41	ipostelnik	(nil?) calls (clojure.lang.Util/identical x nil)
14:41	TimMc	I've confirmed that I'm not running with lein checkouts, and I'm trying again with a fresh m2 and source checkout -- what else should I check?
14:41	ipostelnik	and it's 5-7x slower on my machine
14:41	TimMc	ipostelnik: According to what test?
14:42	rurumate	not sure if in clojurescript, (= nil (aget x "foo")) (nil? (aget x "foo")) would be the same if x does not have property x
14:42	rurumate	property foo I mean
14:42	dobry-den	noHistory is used in datomic for any facts that have no semantic of accreting, right?
14:42	technomancy	TimMc: slurp the .clj file's resource and diff that
14:42	ipostelnik	TimMc, according to my unscientific test on my machine
14:42	TimMc	ipostelnik: Try with criterium
14:42	gfredericks	I'm trying right now
14:43	TimMc	technomancy: As in, find a file that could have changed and make sure the REPL sees the same thign in both cases?
14:43	technomancy	right
14:44	technomancy	if you can isolate it to one ns
14:45	TimMc	technomancy: I can't, but I'll give it a shot.
14:45	gfredericks	3.8 ns for nil? and 5.2 ns for (= nil x)
14:46	nDuff	hrm.
14:49	ipostelnik	gfredericks, that makes sense reading the code
14:52	dnolen	rurumate: the same
14:53	TimMc	technomancy: I cloned a new repo, I temporarily moved m2, could not reproduce it -- and then I switched everything back and it is working now.
14:53	TimMc	Maybe I should remove [lein-gremlins "0.0.1-SNAPSHOT"] from my profiles.clj.
14:54	technomancy	yeah that one has a dependency on [lein-hallucinations "LATEST"] which you really don't want
14:55	TimMc	Note that I didn't even run 'lein clean' at any point in this process.
14:56	stuartsierra	dobry-den: Not exactly sure what you mean. noHistory is usually for things like counters where you only care about the latest value.
15:10	ro_st	cemerick: that was me about cljx + cljsbuild on twitter. thanks for the responses. if you don't use lein-cljsbuild, how do you use cljsbuild ? via some nrepl middleware?
15:10	sw1nn	hi, anyone have opinions about the oldest version of clojure a library could/should legitimately depend on? I'm looking to update clj-aws-s3 and it's currently referencing 1.2.1? One of the deps [clj-time "0.5.0"] depends on 1.5.1 tho.
15:11	ro_st	austin is great but you don't want to manually evaluate all your code into the browser with it when resuming work on a project
15:11	ro_st	just curious what your workflow is, because i really don't want to use `lein blah auto` if i can automate things better than that
15:13	technomancy	sw1nn: 1.2 is old enough that you could see subtle weirdness around dynamic vars that it's probably not worth bothering with; no one's on anything older than 1.3 these days
15:13	mrhanky	how do i write this in clojurescript? if(self.document === undefined)
15:13	technomancy	or anyone still on 1.2 is already going to expect nothing to work with their code
15:13	mrhanky	what's "===" and "undefined" in cljs?
15:14	sw1nn	technomancy: that was my thoughts, 1.3 + profiles for 1.4 and 1.5. sound right?
15:15	technomancy	sw1nn: sounds good to me
15:15	rurumate	mrhanky: I think there's no way to write or obtain undefined
15:15	cemerick	ro_st: generally only for automated testing, and build prior to deployment; piggieback handles all REPL use cases.
15:15	noonian	i think nil is equal to undefined in cljs but not sure
15:15	rurumate	aget will never return undefined, it will convert it to nil for you
15:16	gfredericks	nil is null I think
15:16	ro_st	cemerick: just so i'm clear, you start your repl up, start austin up, and then evaluate your top-level cljs ns and that gets everything loaded into the browser
15:16	bbloom	mrhanky: === is clojure.core/identical?
15:16	gfredericks	last time I checked which was likea year ago
15:16	rurumate	(.-x y) is probably the same as (aget x
15:16	logic_prog	is there a more efficient way of doing (into #{} (filter ... set)) ?
15:16	mrhanky	i'll try (nil? self/document)
15:16	bbloom	rurumate: mrhanky: you can get undefined with js/undefined
15:17	logic_prog	i.e. I want to filter on the set, but right now, it's set -> list -> filter -> list -> set
15:17	gfredericks	logic_prog: reduce
15:17	logic_prog	whereas, I'd prefer set -> filter -> set
15:17	noonian	yeah, but if you have a value returned from some js call that is undefined, i bet (= undefined-obj nil) would return true or (nil? undefined-obj)
15:17	rurumate	bbloom: oh
15:17	gfredericks	logic_prog: or apply disj I guess
15:17	logic_prog	how does reduce help?
15:17	gfredericks	(apply disj set (remove ... set))
15:17	gfredericks	or
15:17	logic_prog	is this known to be faster
15:17	logic_prog	or we are premature optimizing ?
15:17	mrhanky	both are working, (nil? self/document) and (identical? self/document js/undefined)
15:18	mrhanky	thx
15:18	gfredericks	logic_prog: it was your question :P I'm sure it's gota be assymptotically faster; dunno about small sets
15:18	noonian	what is self?
15:18	bbloom	mrhanky: rurumate: undefined is kinda a leaky interop thing. it gets coerced to nil in many cases
15:18	gfredericks	logic_prog: well asymptotically better on GC at least
15:18	mrhanky	noonian, self = this in this case
15:19	dsrx	does anyone know of any idiomatic-ish cljs bindings for webgl? or if not, is three.js relatively painless to use from cljs?
15:19	gfredericks	logic_prog: if you want to get really premature, use a transient since disj doesn't do that for you
15:19	logic_prog	lol
15:19	logic_prog	screw this
15:20	logic_prog	let's write jvm bite code
15:20	logic_prog	and hack fht ejit to make sure this hotpath is optimized for
15:20	mrhanky	just tried to find out if my code is really running as webworker noonian
15:20	logic_prog	gfredericks: this was very useful
15:20	logic_prog	I'm going to stop worrying about this micro optimization until it becomes a bottleneck
15:25	dsrx	I tell myself that all the time and it never works :)
15:25	dobry-den	I have a dynamic Compojure app running on Ubuntu/Nginx. What kind of solutions should I start looking at if I want to get a better picture of what's actually going on? For instance, if someone is brute-forcing my /login path, what's the sort of solution people use to visualize that kind of stuff
15:26	dobry-den	I guess it would start with nginx's access logs
15:26	gfredericks	logic_prog: I usually spring for things that at least honor how data structures were intended to be used
15:43	dnolen	dsrx: https://github.com/Asakeron/cljs-webgl ?
15:43	dnolen	dsrx: Three.js could probably work too.
15:45	dsrx	oh, as it turns out I had accidentally blocked github.com with the google personal blocklist extension
15:46	dsrx	dnolen: thanks!
15:50	piranha	dnolen: I'm a bit confused concerning update!/transact! in om. What's the right way to update nested map? (transact! cursor [:my :path] assoc :q) or (update! cursor assoc-in [:my :path] :q)? I'm just unsure what transact! is.
15:51	dnolen	piranha: transact! and update! are conceptually the same, just different signature
15:51	piranha	ok, I was somehow confused by transact's name
15:51	piranha	so I guess transact is intended to be used here, in other case it just wouldn't exist? :)
15:51	dnolen	piranha: transact! is conceptually the important one
15:52	dnolen	piranha: update! is just a sugar for the case where you don't need to provide a path
15:52	piranha	I see
15:52	piranha	dnolen: thanks for clarification!
15:52	dnolen	piranha: transact! name was intended to give a clue, you're changing the global application state, not component local state
15:53	dnolen	piranha: it's a bit important as the global application state may have changed by the time an event handler fires
15:53	dnolen	piranha: so in some cases you need to recheck your assumptions
15:54	piranha	makes sense...
15:56	sveri	hi, i just had a look at the repeat function in clojure and i dont get how this works, does someone know a blog post or something that explains repeat? why does it call itself? why doesnt it use recur?
15:58	hyPiRion	sveri: It has to do with laziness. I'll see if I can find a blogpost with the topic
15:58	nDuff	sveri: look into what lazy-seq does.
15:58	`cbp	sveri: it doesn't use recur because recur must be in tail position
16:00	sveri	hyPiRion: that would be nice
16:00	noonian	basically, you can write recursive functions that return lazy seqs without blowing the stack if you wrap your fn in (lazy-seq ...); it's like magic on crack
16:00	sveri	noonian: ok, that explains it a little bit
16:06	gfredericks	sveri: a lot of lazy-seq-producing functions are structured like that
16:06	hyPiRion	sveri: Yeah, I have some issues finding a good explanation of it, but it's essentially like this: lazy-seq is actually a macro, which makes a LazySeq object containing an anonymous function with the the body. If you try to do recur inside that anonymous function, you won't call the function you intended to cal
16:06	hyPiRion	*call
16:07	gfredericks	that's half; the other half is why it doesn't blow the stack when you _don't_ user recur
16:07	hyPiRion	,(macroexpand-1 '(lazy-seq (this is my body)))
16:07	clojurebot	(new clojure.lang.LazySeq (fn* [] (this is my body)))
16:10	gfredericks	,(format "foo" 42)
16:10	clojurebot	"foo"
16:10	gfredericks	,(format "foo %s")
16:10	clojurebot	#<MissingFormatArgumentException java.util.MissingFormatArgumentException: Format specifier 's'>
16:10	sveri	ok, i think i get it, at least enough to use it
16:10	sveri	thank you all very much :-)
16:24	bmath	,(+ 1 2)
16:24	clojurebot	3
16:25	bmath	,"clojurebut does what I probably think it does"
16:25	clojurebot	"clojurebut does what I probably think it does"
16:32	matt444	Does anyone have a minimal http script that just serves static files?
16:33	matt444	nm, there's one in the guides
16:33	technomancy	`python -m SimpleHTTPServer 3991`
16:34	TimMc	clojurebot: Are you just gonna take that?
16:34	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:41	gfredericks	(inc clojurebut)
16:41	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:43	justin_smith	(inc clojurebutt)
16:43	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:43	gfredericks	but...could we do it with 3 t's???
16:43	lazybot	gfredericks: Yes, 100% for sure.
16:43	gfredericks	lazybot: I'm sure you're enjoying this game
16:44	justin_smith	*lazybutt
17:04	bitemyapp	akurilin: http://www.meetup.com/SF-Types-Theorems-and-Programming-Languages/events/155960462/
17:04	bitemyapp	justin_smith: excellent name.
17:05	slpsys	china basin? too far
17:06	bitemyapp	slpsys: that isn't China Basin.
17:06	bitemyapp	slpsys: it's SOMA
17:07	slpsys	is china basin just across the channel? i've actually been unclear on that
17:07	bitemyapp	slpsys: yes.
17:07	bitemyapp	slpsys: 164 Townsend is solidly in SOMA.
17:08	bitemyapp	slpsys: having checked the map, all but the NE tip of townsend is in SOMA.
17:08	bitemyapp	slpsys: how long have you lived here?
17:09	slpsys	haha. five years, but i've only worked in the city for about 7 months, and i didn't really think about what to call that neighborhood when i was living in the city
17:27	Node_347	Would someone with experience in Ragtime and Korma mind taking a look at this gist to see if I'm performing migrations correctly? https://gist.github.com/arlandism/8408370
17:28	mrhanky	anybody here used servant library?
17:30	bitemyapp	Node_347: tried it with something that isn't h2?
17:33	Node_347	<bitemyapp> No, I haven't
17:34	daydreamt	Damn you encog.
17:35	daydreamt	Is anyone using neural networks in clojure?
17:35	bitemyapp	Node_347: well.
17:36	mrhanky	(:require [foo.bar :as bar] [foo.baz :as baz] [foo.bat :as bat])
17:37	mrhanky	how do i write this shorter? something like [foo [bar :as bar] [baz :as baz] [bat :as bat]] ?
17:38	justin_smith	that is valid, but not many people use that syntax
17:38	bitemyapp	Node_347: that's cool, I can tell you the same thing on the mailing list.
17:38	bitemyapp	Node_347: if you check the mailing list, you'll see I've suggested you try using something other than H2 to see if there's still a repro.
17:38	stuartsierra	mrhanky: That feature exists as "prefix lists" — see the docs for `require` — but I find it hard to read and grep for.
17:39	mrhanky	good point with grep stuartsierra
17:40	Node_347	bitemyapp: Thanks!
17:40	rasmusto	wtb gsexpp
17:42	AWizzArd	daydreamt: yes, I do.
17:42	technomancy	mrhanky: check out slamhound for stuff like that
17:43	daydreamt	What libraries do you use AWizzArd? Everything I looked at, I looked at pybrain, then I looked back, then I cried.
17:43	AWizzArd	daydreamt: same here, so I implemented it myself :-)
17:43	AWizzArd	I have implemented an MLP and an RBM in Clojure which runs on nvidia’s CUDA.
17:44	ruzu	what about NFL or NBA
17:44	daydreamt	AWizzArd how easy would it to extend it to create arbitrary structures?
17:44	daydreamt	I wanted to do RNNs.
17:45	daydreamt	AWizzArd is it opensource?
17:45	AWizzArd	Well, probably this year I will add an LSTM.
17:45	AWizzArd	Not yet open, but not much speak against opening it.
17:45	rasmusto	CUDA MLP, RBM w/ LSTM?
17:46	rasmusto	wikipedia disambiguation isn't helping me much :<
17:46	daydreamt	rasmusto they are types of neural networks
17:46	AWizzArd	rasmusto: cuda means it runs my code on the gpu. An MLP is a Multilayer Perceptron network, and an RBM is a restricted Boltzmann machine.
17:46	technomancy	you get more ROI with an NIH TLA tohugh
17:46	rasmusto	gotcha, didn't realize this was part of the neural network convo still :D
17:47	AWizzArd	daydreamt: which rnn are you interested in?
17:47	rasmusto	I tried to do a game of life on cuda once, with limited success
17:47	AWizzArd	And how you train it? :-)
17:48	bitemyapp	I don't think clj would be my first pick for CUDA stuff.
17:48	daydreamt	AWizzArd, probably backprop
17:49	daydreamt	AWizzArd, not sure about the structure. That's why I wanted the library to be extendable
17:49	bmath	PCMCIA
17:49	AWizzArd	Well, total flexibility doesn't mix with gpus.
17:49	ruzu	MLB
17:49	AWizzArd	For example, all neurons use the same propagation function, which is just the weighted sum for example.
17:50	AWizzArd	This way everything can be expressed in Matrix operations and run on the GPU with massive speed.
17:50	daydreamt	The fewer types of operations the better?
17:50	AWizzArd	It can be many operations, but in principle every neuron needs to be treated in the same way.
17:51	AWizzArd	In our brains each neuron has its own propagation and activation function.
17:51	AWizzArd	But that beast also has a hundred billion processors <3
17:51	AWizzArd	vs 2k on gpu ;-)
17:51	TimMc	brb, mining bitcoin on brains
17:51	AWizzArd	haha
17:52	rasmusto	yeah, lots of neurons are wasted thinking about lunch in a real human brain, its not apples to apples
17:52	daydreamt	TimMc: whose brains?
17:52	daydreamt	TimMC: You just opened the door to a very dystopian future
17:52	jjido	TimMc: always the pragmatic :)
17:52	AWizzArd	daydreamt: do you think backprop would work on RNNs?
17:53	ruzu	won't be long before the nsa will require access to all of humanity's brains "because terrorism"
17:53	AWizzArd	ruzu: you are aware that your words were logged, yes?
17:53	bitemyapp	TimMc: Da Matrix.
17:54	daydreamt	AWizzArd, I'm just getting into RNNs, but the paper I read, I could swear they used some form of backprop.
17:54	ruzu	should i be concerned?
17:55	AWizzArd	Well, it’s planned to have such. I have one candidate that seems it can be trained.
17:55	AWizzArd	daydreamt: read Kurzweil’s book “How to create a mind”.
17:56	bitemyapp	people take Kurzweil seriously?
17:56	AWizzArd	This book is actually pretty good.
17:56	bitemyapp	that's like asking a scientologist for advice on your psych medication.
17:56	ruzu	i'm notifying the scientology administration of your slander.
17:57	daydreamt	AWizzArd: they do use backprop. "Backpropagation through time" or something like that
17:57	bitemyapp	ruzu: spookay.
17:57	logic_prog	what is the clojure.core.async stance on ">!" can't be used across functions (i.e. has to be within a lexical async/go block) ? Is the stance: (1) this is the way we like it and it will always be this way , (2) this is due to sucikness of the JVM and we will fix it , or (3) none of the above ?
17:58	AWizzArd	bitemyapp: just have a look at what guys wrote reviews to his book. Some top brain researchers. And even more important: I say it’s good \o/
17:59	bitemyapp	AWizzArd: well, if you cherry-pick the right subset, you can find climatologists that deny global warming too
17:59	bitemyapp	AWizzArd: I used to work alongside and live with a neuroscientist, we're a long ways away but making steady progress. Kurzweil is not the person you want status updates from, he's an enthusiast, not an authority.
18:00	AWizzArd	This however is his bestest book.
18:00	AWizzArd	Nothing new for a neuroscientist though.
18:00	bitemyapp	AWizzArd: I liked L Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth the most, out of them all.
18:00	bitemyapp	you all should definitely read that one, since it was his bestest book.
18:03	bitemyapp	Always nice to see my beautiful compact little handler code get destroyed and sullied by the arrival of reality.
18:03	dnolen	logic_prog: shallow yield is a good solution that sits well with Clojure, any more requires far, far more compiler support
18:03	dnolen	"well with Clojure's compilation model"
18:04	logic_prog	dnolen: https://www.google.com/#q=clojure+shallow+yield is not very useful
18:04	logic_prog	dnolen: can you point me at api docs to read ?
18:04	dnolen	logic_prog: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/yield.pdf
18:05	turbofail	if you want to get around that you'll need delimited continuation support
18:05	logic_prog	dnolen: does this mean "use https://github.com/swannodette/delimc " or is there another library you have in mind?
18:05	dnolen	logic_prog: no
18:06	dnolen	logic_prog: core.async gives you a weaker form of delimited continuations that's good enough for most problems w/o complicating the compilation model
18:06	logic_prog	dnolen: let me rephase my question. how do I use shallow yield in clojure? what are good examples of shallow yifled in clojure?
18:06	dnolen	logic_prog: core.async gives you shallow yield
18:06	logic_prog	err, so the ansewr is "shallow yifled does NOT provide what was asked" but is the best clojure does ?
18:07	logic_prog	it's infuriating :-) that I can't put >! in functions unless I wrap them in go blocks ....
18:07	logic_prog	go blocks encourage me to write giant functions, whereas for all these years, I've been trying to get better at writing smaller, composable functions
18:07	dnolen	logic_prog: you break things about into smaller go blocks
18:08	dnolen	s/about/apart
18:08	noonian__	logic_prog: can't you just call >! on a channel in the go block and return the value on a new channel then return the channel?
18:09	logic_prog	yeah, but then I end up putting <! everywhere
18:09	logic_prog	basically I have to sprinkled <! all over the palces, becuase functions on longer return values, but instead, return go channels that I have to read from
18:10	jjido	logic_prog: sounds like continuations
18:10	logic_prog	dnolen: what is the best continuations library for clojure right now?
18:10	dnolen	logic_prog: core.async
18:10	logic_prog	lol
18:11	bitemyapp	logic_prog: call/cc was a bad idea anyway.
18:11	dnolen	logic_prog: it sounds like you need to think about your problem domain more, or organize things at level higher then the abstraction core.async gives you out of the box.
18:11	jjido	bitemyapp: agreed
18:11	powrtoc	dnolen: does anyone know how core.logic LCons works? I know it implements cons from scheme, but how does it work?
18:11	turbofail	you wouldn't need full call/cc to provide a better yield, in fact it'd be easier to implement it using delimited continuations
18:11	dnolen	powrtoc: the implementation is not that long :)
18:12	bitemyapp	logic_prog: there are better, less opaque, more reliable abstractions that can be composed in programs. Functions.
18:12	turbofail	that said, supporting even delimited continuations would be difficult
18:12	ruzu	anyone happen to have read Clojure Data Analysis Cookbook, and have an opinion on it?
18:12	jjido	turbofail: the trampoline works fine.
18:12	bitemyapp	arrdem: god fucking dammit I was typing it
18:12	powrtoc	dnolen: yes I've looked at it :-) I guess the likes of cache are confusing me...
18:12	turbofail	jjido: sure but you'd have to recompile all of clojure's standard library in that style
18:12	technomancy	arrdem: you jinxed it
18:13	bitemyapp	I was going to say, a better abstraction is continuations from monads. Like: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-1.1.0.2/docs/Control-Monad-Cont.html
18:13	turbofail	and you pay a performance cost for all code even if you only use delimitd continuations in a small portion
18:13	bitemyapp	Not least bececause it doesn't need to be reified to the compiler.
18:13	jjido	turbofail: it's slow yes
18:13	bitemyapp	But also because it's fairly simple to understand algebraically.
18:13	dnolen	powrtoc: cache is just to cache hashCode
18:14	dnolen	turbofail: jjido: and eventually you realize that core.async is an acceptable performant tradeoff
18:14	powrtoc	ahh so that's why it's mutable
18:14	bitemyapp	having dnolen ignore me is proving advantageous so far.
18:14	dnolen	Erik Meijer said so, so it must be true :)
18:14	bitemyapp	I can teach without being interrupted, except by arrdem.
18:14	bitemyapp	Erik Meijer is an apostate.
18:14	turbofail	anyway many other languages have decided that a shallow-yield is good enough, and i agree for the most part
18:15	jjido	bitemyapp: away with monads
18:15	bitemyapp	jjido: no
18:15	jjido	waah
18:15	technomancy	there we go
18:16	bitemyapp	Using monads to teach a concept doesn't fall under convincing others to use Haskell, they're the just the only ones with documentation for things like Cont.
18:16	bitemyapp	not my fault >:)
18:17	technomancy	just saying; got my eye on you
18:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: you use monads too. Async. :P
18:19	technomancy	I was kind of amazed that when they introduced it, they were like "(by the way, this is technically called a monad, but you don't have to care about that right now)"
18:19	technomancy	I have never heard anyone introduce monads in a way that wasn't shouting from the rooftops about how amazing they are; it was quite unexpected.
18:19	technomancy	(in the ocaml book)
18:20	jjido	technomancy: nice closure
18:20	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's not as much about amazingness as that they're the natural next-step from the relatively trivial HOFs Clojure leverages.
18:21	bitemyapp	you could hold your nose and pretend protocols were typeclasses to accomplish the same in Clojure.
18:21	bitemyapp	not that you'd enjoy it.
18:21	bitemyapp	ie, Fluokitten.
18:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: you can do monads in OCaml but I haven't seen anybody mix different kinds of monads in a single function.
18:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm actually headed to a type theory meetup tonight where at least one or two people that worked at Jane Street will be present, I'll ask them about it.
18:24	technomancy	bitemyapp: mostly talking about people who blog about "I finally understand monads and now you can too"
18:24	bitemyapp	technomancy: every single one of those blogs I've seen have been unconscionably horrible.
18:24	technomancy	followed by incomprehensible rambling, right
18:24	jjido	Jane Street?
18:24	bitemyapp	Monads are too generic to be explained like that. It's better to move into practical implementation and the algebra directly.
18:24	technomancy	jjido: Jane Street Async, yeah
18:24	bitemyapp	jjido: Minsky's crew.
18:25	technomancy	"We don't have concurrency, but through the Power of Monads we can fake it!"
18:25	bitemyapp	that's pretty much it right there.
18:25	bitemyapp	technomancy: functional inversion of control goes a long way :)
18:26	technomancy	it's much nicer than any other callback system in single-threaded runtimes I've used
18:26	mrhanky	are there any additional steps when installing jayq? i get this: Uncaught ReferenceError: jQuery is not defined
18:26	powrtoc	Wow core.logic has a datomic dependency? What's that for?
18:27	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'd tend to agree. I'd still rather have 1:1 and N:M threading though.
18:27	bitemyapp	powrtoc: datalog?
18:28	powrtoc	bitemyapp: Why would core.logic need that?
18:28	arrdem	technomancy: the main reason that I lurk here isn't that I like clojure, it's that bitemyapp is an unending font of cheap shot targets
18:28	arrdem	technomancy: the clojure is an added benifit
18:28	akurilin	bitemyapp: cool. I'm afraid I can't go tonight, demo day tomorrow, gotta wake up at 5 :\|
18:29	akurilin	bitemyapp: Btw I'd love to know more about the ACL library/pattern you mentioned on the mailing list.
18:29	technomancy	arrdem: yah, I haven't written clojure in months
18:29	akurilin	bitemyapp: Is there anywhere I could read up more about on it?
18:29	technomancy	I'm here for the lulz
18:30	arrdem	technomancy: can't blame you. this is a really sharp croud :D
18:32	dnolen	powrtoc: it doesn't have a datomic dep
18:35	powrtoc	dnolen: on master datomic-free is listed as a dependency in project.clj... just wondering why... am I right in thinking datomic.clj extends core.logic unification etc... to datomic types?
18:35	dnolen	powrtoc: "provided"
18:35	dnolen	powrtoc: there's no hard dependency on datomic at all
18:36	dnolen	powrtoc: the datomic namespace won't even compile if datomic isn't on your classpath
18:36	dnolen	powrtoc: yes, it just an experimental namespace, Datomic still doesn't provide the right hooks for it to work
18:36	powrtoc	dnolen: ah cool... I think leiningen has moved on a bit since I last did Clojure in anger...
18:36	powrtoc	dnolen: interesting...
18:41	powrtoc	dnolen: is the nominal logic and finite domain stuff complete these days?
18:42	dnolen	powrtoc: more or less, there's more work to do w/ finite domain w/ respect to perf
18:43	powrtoc	dnolen: cool
18:44	technomancy	powrtoc: Central won't accept poms with dependencies on non-OSS code
18:44	technomancy	unfortunately clojars is not as careful about that =\
18:44	powrtoc	technomancy: ahh
18:44	bitemyapp	technomancy: proper way to interact with a jar from Clojure code is lib/ right?
18:44	bitemyapp	confirming for a coworker that apparently needs to fiddle with some NLP whatevers.
18:44	technomancy	bitemyapp: proper way to interact with a jar is from a repository
18:45	bitemyapp	technomancy: is lein-localrepo a good idea? We don't have our own maven repo.
18:45	technomancy	if it's just for local exploration you can use lein deploy to get a jar into ~/.m2 for your own machine
18:45	technomancy	otherwise all it takes is a directory served over HTTP
18:46	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's a flat standalone jar provided by a third party.
18:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: thanks!
18:48	technomancy	you can tell your co-worker it is totally OK to yell at anyone who thinks it's reasonable to distribute a jar that's not in a repository in 2014
18:48	technomancy	tell them technomancy sent you
18:48	matt444	I'm following the ClojureScript getting started guide and when I attempt to compile I get this: http://pastebin.com/guqrk4Ue
18:48	technomancy	I mean if you're getting this from a 3rd-party
18:48	bitemyapp	technomancy: I did, actually. I said who you were in the email :)
18:48	technomancy	nice
18:50	powrtoc	Is alphaKanren described at all in reasoned schemer?
18:50	powrtoc	or is it only in the alpha kanren paper?
18:51	matt444	following these steps: https://gist.github.com/ninjudd/1098120
18:51	matt444	java 1.6.0_65
18:52	noonian__	matt444: what version of cljs are you trying to compile?
18:53	matt444	version of cljs?
18:53	matt444	i'm not compiling cljs
18:53	matt444	i'm compiling a .cljs file
18:53	matt444	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
18:53	matt444	master
18:54	noonian__	matt444: ah, from your gist you are using the cljs compiler directly and i've never tried that
18:54	matt444	then how do you compile?
18:55	noonian__	matt444: most people use the leiningen plugin lein-cljsbuild to compile cljs in a leiningen project
18:55	matt444	yes, i use that
18:55	matt444	but i have client side and node
18:55	matt444	so I use lein-cljsbuild for client side
18:55	noonian__	you can use it for both
18:56	matt444	hm, example project.clj?
18:57	matt444	just have a second :build
18:57	matt444	?
18:58	matt444	so how do you arrange your folder?
18:58	matt444	my client stuff is in src/
18:58	noonian__	yeah, second build
18:58	noonian__	something like this: https://www.refheap.com/23531
18:58	bitemyapp	"actual: java.lang.ClassCastException: datomic.db.Datum cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative" dATOMIC rage.
18:58	noonian__	just arrange your src directories accordingly
18:59	matt444	so if I move my files in src/ it's still going to be able to find the references?
18:59	matt444	where does your package.json go?
18:59	matt444	src/cljs/node ?
19:00	noonian__	i'm not sure what that is, i haven't really used node
19:00	noonian__	if you want to share code then you should have 2 src-paths for each cljsbuild build where one is shared between the builds
19:00	bitemyapp	"java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: datomic.db.Datum" I am going to kill something.
19:00	matt444	i don't want to share code
19:01	arrdem	bitemyapp: core.typed talk in an hour.. let you know how it goes.
19:01	noonian__	i mean, share code between both your builds, like share a common set of cljs utilities for instance
19:02	matt444	yeah, i don't need that
19:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: I am atomic-raging at some type error / stupid data-type stuff in Datomic, let you know how many bodies I have to dispose of later.
19:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: type theory meetup in ~3 hours.
19:02	matt444	that example doesn't have a output-dir
19:02	matt444	how do i handle that?
19:03	noonian__	:output-to "some/path/for/node/node-cljs.js"
19:03	noonian__	will stick your compiled js wherever you specify
19:04	matt444	yes, but there is also a :output-dir
19:06	noonian__	just make it different for each build
19:06	matt444	I don't think that project.clj is right, it doesn't have :target :nodejs
19:06	noonian__	https://www.refheap.com/23532
19:07	noonian__	yeah, i don't know about any node specific settings
19:09	bitemyapp	(bean dat)
19:09	bitemyapp	ClassCastException java.util.Date cannot be cast to java.lang.Number datomic.db.Datum (db.clj:219)
19:09	bitemyapp	breathe. Breathe Chris. Find your center.
19:11	mrhanky	why does jayq.core gives me this: Uncaught ReferenceError: jQuery is not defined
19:11	mrhanky	:/
19:11	bitemyapp	the answer for the Daily Double was: (let [{:keys [e a v tx]} dat] (into {} [[:e e] [:a a] [:v v] [:tx tx]]))
19:12	noonian__	mrhanky: you probably need to include jquery in your page first
19:12	mrhanky	i have, i tried 2.x and now 1.9.x
19:13	ivan	is jQuery defined in the console?
19:13	mrhanky	yes
19:14	Bronsa	bitemyapp: wouldn't (select-keys dat [:e :a :v :tx]) do?
19:14	matt444	I've had so many problems with lein-cljsbuild
19:14	ivan	mrhanky: are you using some Google API loader that will asynchronously load jQuery after your other JS runs?
19:15	matt444	Does anyone know where, with lein-cljsbuild I should put :target :nodejs
19:15	noonian__	stick it inside the :compiler map of each build
19:15	bitemyapp	Bronsa: lets find out!
19:16	bitemyapp	Bronsa: berossus.api-test> (select-keys dat [:e :a :v :tx])
19:16	bitemyapp	ClassCastException datomic.db.Datum cannot be cast to java.util.Map clojure.lang.RT.find (RT.java:733)
19:16	bitemyapp	Bronsa: no dice grandma.
19:16	matt444	noonian__ thanks for your patient help, i'll pastebin my config
19:16	technomancy	bitemyapp: man; things that aren't maps
19:16	bitemyapp	Bronsa: confer with my previous angry messages to see why that didn't work.
19:16	matt444	noonian__: https://www.refheap.com/23536
19:17	bitemyapp	technomancy: I was spittin' mad but my tests are passing now so just this once: http://i.imgur.com/J9NLYcI.gif
19:17	noonian__	matt444: np, here a blog post for nodejs setup with an example config that shows the compiler option: http://dannysu.com/2013/01/14/clojurescript-for-nodejs/
19:17	noonian__	matt444: looks good to me hehe
19:17	technomancy	nice
19:17	matt444	hm
19:17	matt444	Why do they do :optimizations :advanced for node?
19:18	matt444	there's no reason to do that
19:18	noonian__	it will make your code compile down much smaller
19:18	matt444	code size doesn't matter in node
19:18	matt444	it's not going over the wire
19:18	mrhanky	ivan, seems like codemirror produces this ._.
19:18	matt444	is :builds a vector or a map? I've seen both
19:19	matt444	mine is currently a map
19:19	matt444	it seems that almost no one is using clojurescript with Node
19:19	noonian__	i've seen both also, mine's a map
19:20	matt444	The word node only appears twice in lein-cljsbuild's project, both issues
19:21	noonian__	i've seen a few posts on people doing it but mainly for fun
19:22	`cbp	lol @ those tweets
19:22	matt444	thanks for your help, i'll log an issue
19:23	bitemyapp	`cbp: I'm glad you enjoy my tweets of sorrow.
19:25	mrhanky	ivan, i hade cljs code using (set! (.-onload js/window) (fn [] ...)), switched to jqueries ready
19:25	mrhanky	solved it
19:26	Bronsa	bitemyapp: ouch, that sucks. what's wrong with {:e e :a a :v v :tx tx} anyway?
19:27	bitemyapp	Bronsa: it's absurdly tedious. I shouldn't have to create maps by specifying each attr/value pair and destructuring accordingly.
19:27	bitemyapp	Bronsa: datoms are printed as if they're maps, they should behave like ACTUAL maps.
19:27	bitemyapp	there is no reason at all for them to do otherwise except for projected Hickeysian torment.
19:28	bitemyapp	the pedantry in pretending they're not maps is doubly pointless in an untyped language where there's no real safety to be had anyway.
19:28	bitemyapp	if you're in the mud already, play fuckin' ball.
19:29	technomancy	bitemyapp: but inheritance is bad always
19:31	bitemyapp	I'm anticipating my next resolved ticket to involve some (= (class ...) blah.WhoCares)
19:31	bitemyapp	kill for a pattern match.
19:33	technomancy	I don't understand why every clojure codebase out there isn't using core.match now that the AOT bugs are gone
19:33	technomancy	is it still in the middle of a rewrite?
19:34	technomancy	not having pattern matching is pretty terrible
19:34	bitemyapp	I gave up on it after having it breaking my code multiple times at different points in time.
19:34	bitemyapp	break*
19:34	bitemyapp	similarly to how I stopped bothering with c.j.j after the massacre of 0.3.x
19:34	`cbp	rip
19:35	bitemyapp	(inc `cbp)
19:35	lazybot	⇒ 2
19:35	bitemyapp	(inc cbp)
19:35	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:35	bitemyapp	for good measure.
19:35	`cbp	:p
19:42	scape	bitemyapp: cjj?
19:42	rasmusto	java jdbc I assume
19:42	coventry`	Is this really the cleanest way to prepare a jar for submission to a storm cluster? https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm-starter/issues/51
19:44	bitemyapp	I write some really dense test code.
19:45	Wild_Cat	quick question: What's the accepted way in a Clojure test to check that some returned value is a specific vector (and specifically not the equivalent list)?
19:45	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: vector?
19:45	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: =?
19:45	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: I want the test to pass when the returned value is ["foo" "bar"] but not when it's '("foo" "bar")
19:45	bitemyapp	,(= [0 1 2] '(0 1 2))
19:45	clojurebot	true
19:45	bitemyapp	well that's fucking stupid.
19:45	Wild_Cat	yup, that's the issue :p
19:46	bitemyapp	:\|
19:46	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: (and (= ...) (vector? ...))
19:46	Wild_Cat	right now I'm checking (= (type ret) clojure.lang.PersistentVector) but that's horrible
19:46	hyPiRion	^
19:46	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: dude no. use vector?
19:46	Wild_Cat	oh, I didn't know that function existed. Thanks.
19:47	scape	:)
19:47	noonian__	Wild_Cat: (and (vector? ret) (= ret v))
19:47	bitemyapp	scape: I'm still scowling at the badness of that equality.
19:47	Cr8	,(map vector? [1 [] '() {} #{}])
19:47	clojurebot	(false true false false false)
19:47	bitemyapp	Cr8: good paranoia.
19:47	bitemyapp	lol.
19:47	hyPiRion	or eventually (identical? x coll) if you know that a specific vector will be returned
19:47	bitemyapp	That makes = untrustworthy because vector is associative and '() is not.
19:48	Wild_Cat	hyPiRion: oh! Even easier. Thanks.
19:48	noonian__	most of the ops you do on vectors return lazy seqs though so you want that equality
19:48	bitemyapp	so we still haven't learned anything from the egal paper. Sweet.
19:48	bitemyapp	noonian__: it's not really about that.
19:48	Cr8	= "do these things have similar insides"
19:48	bitemyapp	Cr8: sounds like JavaScript's == to me.
19:49	bitemyapp	Cr8: are you coming to the type theory meetup
19:49	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: ^^
19:49	Wild_Cat	,(= '(0 1 2) [0 1 2])
19:49	clojurebot	true
19:49	Wild_Cat	(phew, thankfully that's commutative :p )
19:50	Cr8	Cr8: prolly not, I didn't sleep much
19:50	bitemyapp	commutatively...wrong.
19:50	bitemyapp	Cr8: be a man. Do the right thing.
19:50	technomancy	bitemyapp: it's a bit weird, but I can understand the stance that laziness would be unbearably tedious without that quirk
19:50	TEttinger	ok uh... my clojure game is really fast when run with lein, which defaults to a server JVM (an example command that does the same thing: java -server -jar myGame.jar). it's also really fast if I have a JDK installed and used for the java command. but... the java that is installed by default for users is the client vm, which seems at least 3x slower
19:50	technomancy	but it's definitely not egal
19:50	bitemyapp	technomancy: Right.
19:50	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: yeah, sure, that sucks, but it's still better than it not being commutative or transitive
19:50	bitemyapp	technomancy: if the lazy semantics were universal instead of ghettoized in a coll it wouldn't be necessary to fuck up the equality.
19:51	Wild_Cat	(not that I'm implying that Clojure is influenced by PHP or anything :p )
19:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: one wrong decision causes another...
19:51	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: well they're both untyped.
19:51	technomancy	bitemyapp: right; because that doesn't cause any weird problems
19:51	TEttinger	(it takes a half second to process a keypress on client, it is almost instantaneous on server)
19:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm sorry, I can't hear you from my shining ivory tower.
19:51	bitemyapp	where things just work
19:51	Bronsa	Wild_Cat: what if I told you == isn't commutative in 1.5.1?
19:52	Bronsa	,clojure-version
19:52	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
19:52	Bronsa	&clojure-version
19:52	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
19:52	bitemyapp	that's old.
19:52	Bronsa	&[(== 1 1N 1.0) (== 1 1N 1.0 1M) (== 1 1N 1.0 1.0M) (== 1 1.0 1N 1.0M)]
19:52	lazybot	⇒ [true true true false]
19:52	TEttinger	does anyone have any tips for speeding up JVM clojure without the trick lazybot uses to launch another java command?
19:52	bitemyapp	Bronsa: oh sweet.
19:52	Wild_Cat	eew.
19:52	bitemyapp	PHP-jure.
19:53	technomancy	TEttinger: are you sure your users don't have access to the server JVM?
19:53	Bronsa	bitemyapp: it's fixed since 1.6.0-alphasomething though
19:53	TEttinger	technomancy, kinda
19:53	Wild_Cat	all right, thanks for helping me make my pull request prettier.
19:53	bitemyapp	Bronsa: not really comforting.
19:53	TEttinger	I tried it on a JRE only java 7 install, up to date
19:53	TEttinger	no -server option there
19:53	technomancy	TEttinger: who are these mysterious users running on 32-bit boxes?
19:53	TEttinger	my mom.
19:53	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: that's just because loljava bigdecimals
19:54	hyPiRion	,(== 1.0M 1.00M) ;; etc
19:54	TEttinger	technomancy, is it really a 64-bit only thing?
19:54	clojurebot	true
19:54	hyPiRion	oh, that's fixed on master
19:54	hyPiRion	&(== 1.0M 1.00M)
19:54	lazybot	⇒ false
19:54	technomancy	TEttinger: no, it's only that 64-bit machines are server-only
19:54	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: Datomic already drained my ability to care today.
19:54	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: hurray.
19:55	technomancy	most users don't even have access to client hotspot
19:55	TEttinger	on JRE, not JDK???
19:55	lazybot	TEttinger: Oh, absolutely.
19:55	Wild_Cat	TEttinger: yeah, even on JRE
19:55	technomancy	TEttinger: pretty sure it's the same on both
19:55	technomancy	they never bothered implementing -client
19:55	Wild_Cat	AFAIK the JVM installed by the JRE and the JDK is the same.
19:55	bitemyapp	TEttinger: betcha wish ya had native binaries right about now >:)
19:56	Wild_Cat	the main difference being that one comes with the Ask toolbar -.-
19:56	TEttinger	bitemyapp, yeah. except haskell doesn't have any game libs.
19:56	technomancy	TEttinger: never heard of -server being missing
19:56	technomancy	you could try tiered compilation maybe
19:57	bitemyapp	TEttinger: well that's not true at all.
19:57	bitemyapp	TEttinger: there's Helm, HGame3d, there's a whole channel devoted to it at #haskell-game
19:57	TEttinger	oh neat
19:57	bitemyapp	TEttinger: you can use any dyn-libs via the FFI you want.
19:57	technomancy	RainCat!
19:57	bitemyapp	TEttinger: most people use SDL for 2d, OpenGL for 3d.
19:57	technomancy	is adorable
19:57	Cr8	java hates me today
19:57	TEttinger	ouch bitemyapp
19:57	bitemyapp	technomancy: yes it is.
19:58	bitemyapp	TEttinger: ouch?
19:58	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I mean, if you want something like Unity3d, you're not going to get it.
19:58	TEttinger	raw OpenGL is not something I have had a good time with
19:58	TEttinger	I usually have used wrappers
19:58	bitemyapp	TEttinger: so use GLUT or GLEW
19:59	bitemyapp	TEttinger: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/OpenGL http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/OpenGLTutorial1 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/GLUT http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1tay08/modern_opengl_in_haskell/
19:59	bitemyapp	TEttinger: OpenGL and GLUT are included in the Haskell platform by default.
19:59	bitemyapp	at most, you'd install some headers.
19:59	technomancy	dammit bitemyapp
19:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm helping him!
19:59	technomancy	you're like one hour early
19:59	Wild_Cat	Haskell has no games. It has generalized abstract game engine transformer transformer combinator transformers.
19:59	TEttinger	yeah, total rewrite is not helping
19:59	Wild_Cat	:p
20:00	bitemyapp	:(
20:00	bitemyapp	TEttinger: is it on Github?
20:00	TEttinger	yeah, not the latest yet, because my current local copy is kinda broken ATM
20:00	bitemyapp	TEttinger: link please.
20:00	technomancy	TEttinger: does tiered compilation work?
20:00	TEttinger	https://github.com/tommyettinger/dungeon-kingpin
20:01	TEttinger	technomancy, I don't know what it is yet
20:01	TEttinger	and it seems to be Java 7 only?
20:01	technomancy	no, it's been around a long time
20:01	technomancy	it's faster in 7 though
20:01	Cr8	COME ON
20:01	bitemyapp	TEttinger: your dangling ))'s are unholy in the eyes of god
20:01	Cr8	i keep getting outofmemoryerror java heap space
20:01	bitemyapp	Cr8: jack dat Xmx yo.
20:02	technomancy	TEttinger: it's a way of telling -server to start out as fast-launching and shift to high-perf over time
20:02	technomancy	an attempt at getting best of both worlds of -client and -server
20:02	Cr8	bitemyapp: I jacked it up to 8G :[
20:02	bitemyapp	Cr8: hahahahaha ouch.
20:02	Cr8	and all i'm trying to do is start a repl
20:02	TEttinger	technomancy, but it needs to be the other way around...?
20:03	bitemyapp	Cr8: wat.
20:03	Cr8	lein repl; empty project; empty profiles.clj; out of heap
20:03	technomancy	TEttinger: not sure; it might be a way to force it into high-perf mode even if you can't invoke -server
20:03	Cr8	not really ..
20:03	Cr8	okay now it works
20:03	TEttinger	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/server-class.html
20:03	Cr8	wait i lied
20:03	Cr8	it started a repl
20:04	Cr8	then i typed a character and i got it again
20:04	amalloy	https://github.com/tommyettinger/dungeon-kingpin/blob/master/src/dk/herringbone.clj -- best source file ever, TEttinger?
20:04	TEttinger	amalloy,I know right
20:05	TEttinger	code is data!
20:05	Cr8	https://www.evernote.com/shard/s17/sh/95196df9-343c-4170-ae86-214aeb84fd53/04497dbef41ff7e8b1c904a35d0fb1f4/deep/0/1.-apage43@Tyrathect----proj-tiny-(zsh).png
20:05	TEttinger	Cr8, heh
20:05	bitemyapp	Cr8: what in god's name did you do to your JVM?
20:05	TEttinger	it is probably trying to load a ns
20:05	Cr8	i think i'm going to reboot my computer
20:06	bitemyapp	Cr8: Tyrathect!
20:06	bitemyapp	Cr8: I just read that book!
20:06	bitemyapp	Cr8: fantastic.
20:06	TEttinger	and then dying because you have a massive def or something
20:06	Cr8	that's my computer's name
20:06	noonian__	Cr8: if you have a :main key in your project.clj try commenting it out
20:06	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:06	Cr8	bitemyapp: cool :D
20:06	Cr8	noonian__: I don't. This is a fresh lein new
20:06	bitemyapp	Cr8: reboot and try again?
20:07	Cr8	doing so
20:07	noonian__	lol, that sucks then
20:08	arrdem	technomancy: I love the new topic
20:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm very proud of that.
20:09	gtrak	hahaha
20:09	Cr8	well
20:09	Cr8	everything's fine now
20:09	llasram	Another hour to go!
20:09	Cr8	user=> 1
20:09	Cr8	1
20:09	Cr8	success!
20:09	arrdem	llasram: that means I have an hour to give my talk and get bitemyapp on dota so he doesn't steal more souls...
20:09	gtrak	vote for cljs compiler dumps! http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-748
20:10	technomancy	bitemyapp has set his alarm
20:10	technomancy	two hours after ALLBALLS
20:10	llasram	heh
20:11	Cr8	,(vector? (first {:a 1}))
20:11	gtrak	once we have that, we'd be about an hour away from an autodoc.
20:11	clojurebot	true
20:11	bitemyapp	Cr8: seq of vecs
20:12	bitemyapp	Cr8: I have to memorize the types because I use an untyped language.
20:12	Cr8	,(class (first {:a 1}))
20:12	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
20:12	bitemyapp	pseudo-vecs.
20:12	bitemyapp	fine.
20:12	bitemyapp	inheritance?
20:12	Cr8	&(-> {:a 1} first class supers)
20:12	lazybot	⇒ #{java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.Sequential java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.IPersistentStack clojure.lang.IPersistentVector java.util.Collection java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.AFn java.util.concurrent.Callable java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lan... https://www.refheap.com/23557
20:13	bitemyapp	A and I anyway.
20:13	Cr8	has APersistentVector
20:13	Cr8	yeah
20:20	bitemyapp	for datomic.db.Datum: #{clojure.lang.ILookup java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Indexed clojure.lang.IType datomic.impl.db.IDatum datomic.Datom datomic.db.IDatumImpl}
20:20	bitemyapp	well that's not nice.
20:20	Cr8	that's..
20:20	Cr8	short
20:20	bitemyapp	Cr8: did you see my smashing my head into them earlier?
20:20	Cr8	I did
20:26	Cr8	speaking of books, Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes was good, I read it on a plane a bit back
20:28	Cr8	w.r.t. your rt there
20:29	Cr8	though it doesn't actually go into much detail on the piraha language, the story was interesting
20:35	insamniac	TEttinger: Is dungeon-kingpin supposed to work? I can't pull down all the deps
20:35	TEttinger	insamniac, that's odd
20:35	TEttinger	which deps can't it get?
20:36	bitemyapp	insamniac: I really like your name.
20:37	bitemyapp	insamniac: please tell me your given name is Sam.
20:37	seangrove	Deploying Clojure to Heroku in what seem like off-hours? Grab a drink, sit back, relax. You got loads of time.
20:38	arrdem	seangrove: really? it's always been pretty fast for me..
20:38	seangrove	arrdem: And you uberjar?
20:39	bitemyapp	uberjars start faster, but are fatter.
20:39	arrdem	seangrove: I don't think so. I just used their git target with an uberjar->slug for their end.
20:39	arrdem	*configuration
20:39	bitemyapp	but I don't use Heroku.
20:40	bitemyapp	because I build my own lightsabers.
20:40	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, but I can compile them quickly locally, but letting whatever scraps heroku uses to compile them is painful
20:40	technomancy	bitemyapp: whatever; I saw your keyboard
20:40	_eric	I have some tests where I want to slurp in some files to use in the tests
20:40	_eric	is there a convention for where to put the files and how to read them?
20:41	bitemyapp	technomancy: that's @work, I use a MX cherry thingamajig at home with Linux.
20:41	technomancy	seangrove: we just opened up the API to accept 3rd-party slugs though so you can do it from a CI server or something
20:41	technomancy	please don't build on your laptop =(
20:41	bitemyapp	we build uberjars on our dev machines here, lol.
20:41	arrdem	_eric: $PROJECT_ROOT/resources/*
20:41	seangrove	technomancy: That sounds good, but I'm wondering if we get much benefit from heroku/clojure over just using ansible + uberjar
20:41	arrdem	_eric: leiningen will put that stuff on the classpath for you.
20:41	bitemyapp	seangrove: very neutral source.
20:42	arrdem	_eric: (slurp <filename>) should work.
20:42	seangrove	going on ~6 minutes on this push...
20:42	_eric	cool
20:42	technomancy	bitemyapp: http://p.hagelb.org/disappointed.gif
20:42	_eric	is it only $PROJECT_ROOT/resources/ or is there a $PROJECT_ROOT/test/resources?
20:42	seangrove	technomancy: The API sounds nice though, it's the next piece of the workflow I'd like to setup - jenkins + push-button deploys of passing uberjars
20:43	bitemyapp	technomancy: I knew what the gif was going to be before I clicked.
20:43	hyPiRion	you know what
20:43	arrdem	_eric: you can put files wherever you want on the classpath
20:43	technomancy	bitemyapp: damn; too predictable
20:43	hyPiRion	clojurebot: mystery \|is\| http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
20:43	clojurebot	Roger.
20:43	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's the first time you haven't surprised me though.
20:43	bitemyapp	other than the rather common mystery.gif, but that one is always a delight.
20:43	technomancy	bitemyapp: http://p.hagelb.org/tastes-mature.png
20:45	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: hey, I bet you've not seen this one before: http://hypirion.com/imgs/lenanign.png
20:45	seangrove	Go home hyPiRion, you're drunk
20:45	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: why?
20:45	bitemyapp	seangrove: francophones.
20:46	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: people misspell leiningen in many ways
20:46	gtrak	hyPiRion: she's in every image processing textbook.
20:47	seangrove	technomancy: Admit it, Clojure is so despised at Heroku that the only build servers allotted to clojure projects are the old coffee-grinders thrown out running in the back of McGranaghan's station wagon.
20:47	hyPiRion	gtrak: What do you want me to do? Attach a mustache to every single one of those images?
20:48	r00k_	Anybody here make much use of :pre and :post conditions for your functions? Do you feel like it pays off?
20:48	seangrove	r00k_: I use :pre in quite a few places, it's pretty handy for sanity checks
20:48	gfredericks	hiredman: oh man I did not realize sneakyThrow was actually sneaky
20:48	technomancy	seangrove: I could show you some horrifying graphs that involve scala
20:48	hyPiRion	Maybe I should make an image detection plugin for my browser which automatically adds a mustache to Lena
20:48	gfredericks	I suddenly feel like I don't understand the java type system
20:48	technomancy	seangrove: we get tickets for 15-minute scala builds timing out on a regular basis
20:50	r00k_	seangrove: And you find those asserts blowing up often enough to feel worth the cost (time writing them, visual weight)?
20:50	bitemyapp	seangrove: hahahahaha
20:50	bitemyapp	r00k_: well in the absence of a sensible type system...
20:50	llasram	gfredericks: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2010/08/on-removing-java-checked-exceptions-by.html
20:50	seangrove	technomancy: Well, we'll port over to RoR ASAP ;)
20:50	bitemyapp	whew, just typed defun in Clojure code.
20:50	amalloy	gfredericks: in fairness, neither does java
20:50	seangrove	r00k_: They're generally tiny
20:51	seangrove	e.g. {:pre [(not (empty? api-key))]}, {:pre [(integer? org-id)]}
20:51	gfredericks	llasram: thanks!
20:51	r00k_	bitemyapp: Yeah, I was going to ask if maybe we're just adding a poor man's type system.
20:51	seangrove	Poor, poor-man's type-system
20:51	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yeah, sneakythrow is generic abuse to the max
20:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: 10 minutes till you can start pushing haskell
20:52	amalloy	seangrove: "tiny...(not (empty? x))" :( (seq x)
20:52	seangrove	,(seq "")
20:52	clojurebot	nil
20:52	seangrove	ffs
20:53	r00k_	seangrove: Do they tend to blow up just when you're first writing the code that calls your function, or later when your data gets screwy?
20:53	seangrove	r00k_: I put them in in the beginning when I don't want to write a full test, and take them out when things start looking solid
20:53	r00k_	Hah. (seq x) makes it really look like you just want a type system.
20:53	amalloy	seangrove: (empty? x) is literally implemented as (not (seq x)). there's never a reason to write (not (empty? x))
20:53	gfredericks	I guess the suggested idiom of "throw sneakyThrow(...)" is just to make it syntactically obvious that you're throwing something?
20:53	seangrove	amalloy: What about (not (not (seq x?))) ?
20:54	seangrove	;)
20:54	r00k_	Hah.
20:54	amalloy	maybe if someone put a gun to your head and said "start your preconditions with (not...or DIE"
20:54	gfredericks	,'not...or
20:54	clojurebot	not...or
20:54	r00k_	Thanks for the input, seangrove. I appreciate it!
20:55	Wild_Cat	hey, that's pretty cool: http://blog.travisthieman.com/write-you-a-starcraft-ai-in-clojure/
20:55	gfredericks	,(let [not...or identity, DIE 42] (not...or DIE))
20:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "not...or" in class sandbox$eval73, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:55	hyPiRion	gfredericks: close, but no cigar
20:56	insamniac	this game should be called dancing with ogres
20:57	gfredericks	,(def not...or identity)
20:57	clojurebot	#'sandbox/not...or
20:57	gfredericks	,(let [DIE 42] (not...or DIE))
20:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: not///or, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:58	gfredericks	huh.
20:58	llasram	I'm really amazed you can `def` that
20:58	gtrak	,(read-string "clojure//")
20:58	gfredericks	,(let [DIE 42] (sandbox/not...or DIE))
20:58	clojurebot	clojure//
20:58	clojurebot	42
20:58	gtrak	,(read-string "cljs//")
20:58	clojurebot	cljs//
20:58	gfredericks	llasram: ooh you can use it fully qualified too
20:58	llasram	niiiice
20:58	gtrak	,(read-string "cljs.core//")
20:58	clojurebot	cljs.core//
20:58	TEttinger	insamniac, haha
20:58	gtrak	damn... I forget which one was broken :-)
20:59	gfredericks	,(def .......... 7)
20:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/..........
20:59	llasram	gtrak: It's been fixed
20:59	gtrak	oh really?
20:59	gfredericks	,(* sandbox/.......... 2 3)
20:59	clojurebot	42
20:59	llasram	,clojure-version
20:59	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
20:59	gtrak	aha
20:59	gfredericks	oh man we can make unary helpers
20:59	gfredericks	,(def .. 2)
20:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:59	gfredericks	,(def ... 3)
20:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/...
20:59	gfredericks	,(def . 1)
21:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/.
21:00	gfredericks	waaat
21:00	llasram	,`.
21:00	clojurebot	.
21:00	gfredericks	what is going on with 2
21:00	gfredericks	,(def .... 4)
21:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/....
21:00	hyPiRion	gfredericks: lol
21:00	gfredericks	,(* sandbox/... sandbox/. sandbox/....)
21:00	clojurebot	12
21:00	bitemyapp	yum. more arity type errors.
21:00	hyPiRion	,(+ . .)
21:00	clojurebot	2
21:01	darthdeus	for all the light table fans out there http://blog.jakubarnold.cz/light-table-plugin-tutorial :P
21:01	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: dafuq.
21:01	gfredericks	,#'clojure.core/..
21:01	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/..
21:01	gfredericks	oh maybe that is why
21:01	llasram	Ohhhhh
21:01	llasram	Yes
21:01	llasram	That makes "sense"
21:01	gfredericks	:)
21:01	gfredericks	,(+ ... ...)
21:01	clojurebot	6
21:01	Cr8	wat
21:01	hyPiRion	oh, I got this
21:01	gfredericks	,(def ...... 6)
21:01	clojurebot	#'sandbox/......
21:01	hyPiRion	,(* ... (+ . ...))
21:01	clojurebot	12
21:02	gfredericks	clojure is a DSL for fans of unary who are allergic to 2
21:02	hyPiRion	"And today, in Swearjure part 2, we'll have a look at periods."
21:02	TEttinger	,(. toString 4)
21:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: toString in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:02	TEttinger	no!
21:02	TEttinger	,(.toString 4)
21:02	clojurebot	"4"
21:02	amalloy	not so much clojure as clojurebot, gfredericks
21:02	TEttinger	,(. 4 toString 4)
21:02	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: toString for class java.lang.Long>
21:02	TEttinger	hm
21:03	TEttinger	there is one though
21:03	amalloy	,(. 4 toString)
21:03	clojurebot	"4"
21:03	gfredericks	amalloy: oh good point
21:03	amalloy	you can define .. for real in a repl you own
21:03	TEttinger	,(Long/toString 4 4)
21:03	clojurebot	"10"
21:03	gfredericks	you mean I can own my very own repl?
21:03	TEttinger	there we go, it's static
21:07	hyPiRion	oh, that's an interesting identity
21:07	hyPiRion	,(map #(->> % (Long/toString %) read-string (Long/toString %) read-string) (range 1 20))
21:07	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
21:09	gfredericks	...it is?
21:09	akurilin	If I wanted to keep my site's static html/css/assets separate from the .jar, it doesn't really matter where I place them, right? As long as I have a path to them and file system permissions, I should be able to keep those outside of the jar resources?
21:10	akurilin	I just feel dumb for putting assets in the jar, I have to build the ring app and restart it every time I need to make the smallest change.
21:10	abaker	sure, but you can also build a war, explode the war, put in tomcat, and then mess with stuff all day long
21:11	Cr8	^~
21:11	akurilin	Is that still pretty simple? Because right now my setup is jetty daemonized by runit, which is as bare-bones as it gets and works reallyw ell.
21:12	Cr8	jetty should be able to run exploded WARs as well
21:12	hyPiRion	akurilin: You can place it separate from the .jar. That's what I've done so far.
21:12	rovar	I'm working through http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/ I see that they solve a combinatorial problem rather elegantly, and I also see that there was a bit of discussion on the mailing list about core.logic and datalog..
21:13	rovar	I guess my question is has anyone tried to tackle more complex problems with datalog.. like the travelling salesman or other optimization problems?
21:13	rovar	I'm actually interested in vehicle routing with constraints..
21:13	akurilin	hyPiRion: good to know that people do it.
21:13	rovar	or some variant therein
21:14	hyPiRion	akurilin: For me, I just placed `(route/files "/" {:root "my-directory"})` at the bottom of my main compojure defroutes, where my-directory are the static files
21:14	hyPiRion	er, the directory containing the static files
21:16	akurilin	hyPiRion: ok so it's just a regular unix path, I imagine through an env var or something of that sorts?
21:16	hyPiRion	akurilin: yeah, it's an env var for me, (and it can be relative)
21:17	abaker	rovar: sure, with SPARQL, which can map 1-to-1 with datalog
21:17	akurilin	hyPiRion: ok perfect, I love to shove everything into environ through our CM.
21:18	akurilin	I guess for some reason I thought there's be special rules to accessing files outside of the jar due to some JVM permission rules, but I guess an app is an app.
21:19	hyPiRion	akurilin: nah, standard ACL rules apply
21:21	akurilin	hyPiRion: great, thanks a bunch for clarifying that :)
21:21	hyPiRion	no problem
21:21	hyPiRion	:)
21:22	afhammad	Hi, what is the base footprint for latest clojurescript projects after advanced compilation?
21:24	rovar	abaker, so you're saying you've done it on a graph database?
21:26	abaker	rovar: yeah - I work on Stardog, where sparql + reasoning/rules and such can be used to build all sorts of fun stuff
21:28	rovar	abaker, neato. I do big data infrastructure for a day job, but have been poking around with scheduling and routing optimization for fun..
21:30	abaker	rovar: yeah fun stuff, upcoming release we're adding higher level services for graph analytics, shortest path computations, finding cliques, etc
21:37	_eric	is there an efficient way to say "if ... else if ... else if ... else ..."?
21:38	riley526	_eric: ,(doc cond)
21:38	_eric	sort of like (case) works
21:38	riley526	,(doc cond)
21:38	clojurebot	"([& clauses]); Takes a set of test/expr pairs. It evaluates each test one at a time. If a test returns logical true, cond evaluates and returns the value of the corresponding expr and doesn't evaluate any of the other tests or exprs. (cond) returns nil."
21:38	gregorstocks	hey bitemyapp should i use haskell
21:38	_eric	sweeeet
21:38	_eric	yay!
21:38	_eric	thanks
21:39	riley526	np!
21:39	_eric	I just spent 10 minutes trying to figure out what I was asking for
21:40	riley526	_eric: Yeah some things can be tough to find if you don't know what it's called
21:47	akurilin	gregorstocks: lol.
22:36	logic_prog	what's a good name for something that is a message + a return channel
22:38	Raynes	logic_prog: A portable post office.
22:38	logic_prog	i'm trying to come up with good names for deftype / defrecord
22:39	Raynes	PortablePostOffice
22:39	Raynes	:p
22:44	Cr8	SASE
22:45	llasram	I was just thinking that too, Cr8 :-)