#clojure – 2014-01-12

2014-01-12

00:00	Tolstoy	Set up a project, serve out an index.html page, then use cljsbuild to play with clojurescript.
00:02	Tolstoy	With cljsbuild, I don't think you even need a clojure server side.
00:04	kanja	cljsbuild is something to check out then
00:13	ddellacosta	kanja: definitely don't start with pedestal if you want to use cloact. Do something like create a new cljs project with David Nolen's mies template, then add cloact. lein new mies my-project-name
00:15	kanja	@ddellacosta mies? I'll try that - thanks for the tip!
00:16	bitemyapp	kanja: if you want an easy shake-n-bake way to go for Clojure web dev backends check out luminus. It's essentially a template for common-case Ring and Compojure stuff.
00:17	kanja	@bitemyapp Awesome, thanks!
00:21	Tolstoy	I kinda get the feeling that ClojureScript is a nice little secret weapon.
00:22	ddellacosta	kanja: np
00:28	egghead	clj is a very fun web stack these days, most recently i've been playing with liberator, compojure, cljs-http, & om
00:29	egghead	cljs http in particular, interacting with http (ring) the same way on client and server is very nice :)
00:30	benzap	so typically, do you write the cljs files the same way you would write a clj file
00:30	benzap	and then it generates the proper js file when it's requested?
00:31	egghead	usually you compile a cljs app into a single js file including all deps, with a single entry point
00:32	benzap	so the deps can be just pure javascript?
00:32	benzap	like, i could include jquery
00:33	egghead	mhmm, you can and there is a cljs wrapper for making it more idiomatic in clj
00:33	benzap	alright cool
00:33	noonian	but there are better options than jquery in cljs imo
00:33	benzap	i'm just trying to learn clojure for now, but i'm really interested in compjure with clostache
00:34	egghead	noonian: I agree
00:35	benzap	there's always better options than jquery ;)
00:35	egghead	benzap: cljs is built on top of the google closure js library, so there are some nice libs wrapping googles stuff
00:35	benzap	ah ok
00:35	benzap	I was wondering why a lot of the examples had goog in it
00:54	ddellacosta	benzap: Self-promotion, but I recommend checking out my article on dom libs here if you want to know more: http://davedellacosta.com/cljs-dom-survey
01:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: ring ring
01:37	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/oO2SSs1.jpg
01:37	bitemyapp	arrdem: rat dota.
03:45	shock_one	Is there something like haskell's flip in clojure, which flips function's parameters? (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
03:46	noonian_	you could write it pretty easily
03:47	shock_one	I understand, but it would be silly if there is a built-in function.
03:48	noonian_	i don't think there is a built in one
03:49	shock_one	Thank you.
04:32	Guest68185	looking at tarsnap-keymgmt i was thinking of leaving a key on the server with just -w (so if hacked an attacker couldnt delete archives), however does -w give the ability to rewrite/overwrite hence with a tiny bit more work causing the same effect of -d?
04:33	Guest68185	sorry wrong room
04:46	Raynes	ifesdjeen: Hi.
05:46	quizdr	nice
07:21	indiana	hello all
07:21	indiana	why println "hello" "world" produce "hello world" - not "helloworld"?
07:22	hyPiRion	because println and print makes spaces between the arguments given
07:23	indiana	how i can print it without whitespaces?
07:23	hyPiRion	use (str ...) first, then println
07:23	hyPiRion	so ##(println (str "hello" "world"))
07:23	lazybot	⇒ helloworld nil
07:23	indiana	thanks man :) i am new in clojure
07:24	hyPiRion	no problems, hope you enjoy it :)
07:26	indiana	do you have any experience with java in web applications? do you like more using clojure for web applications?
07:27	hyPiRion	I haven't used Java for web applications, but I've done some work in Clojure and I think it's good for that purpose.
07:28	indiana	I'm java programmer and i try clojure now. I hope that i will be happy with clojure :)
07:30	hyPiRion	ah. The hardest part from a Java-background is that you'll have to learn how to program without mutation (and the parentheses), but when you finally manage to work with just immutability, it's really satisfying
07:33	locks	hyPiRion: the parens are the same, they’re just on the outside ;)
07:33	locks	immutability is doing my head in though
07:34	locks	being used to Ruby et al
07:35	alew	so I have these nested error checks that go about 7 ifs/if-lets deep
07:35	alew	is there a better way to format it so that they aren't so nested?
07:35	hyPiRion	locks: yeah, that's why I put the parens in parens (heh). They are a bit scary and unknown at first, but when you've worked just a little bit with them, stuff gets so much easier
07:35	alew	every failed check evalulates to a single statement that returns an error message
07:36	hyPiRion	alew: a cond perhaps?
07:37	locks	hyPiRion: I think it was stuart that demonstrated in a talk that Clojure actually had less parens than a Java example
07:37	locks	hyPiRion: granted it was probably a cherry picked example, but it’s always entertaining busting myths
07:38	alew	I also need to have binding lets some ways down
07:38	alew	I'll probably just write a let-cond
07:38	alew	or something
07:39	hyPiRion	ah, bindings.
07:39	alew	would be simple otherwise
07:40	hyPiRion	yeah, I think actually making a cond-let would be fair there.
07:41	alew	someone made this http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.cond/cond-let
07:41	alew	but I want to have conditionals and optional let bindings on each condition
07:41	alew	a cond with both if and if-let options
07:45	hyPiRion	well, hm.
07:46	hyPiRion	A cond takes a single branch only. How would a let binding in a cond work?
07:47	alew	like how if-let works
07:47	hyPiRion	alright
07:48	alew	(let-cond (testexpr) "error 1!" [a (non-nil-operation)] "error 2!" :else "success!")
07:48	alew	maybe something like this?
07:49	hyPiRion	I'd guess you would use a in the "error 2!" statement
07:50	alew	if a is nil, then "error 2!" is returned
07:50	alew	otherwise it continues on
07:50	alew	oh yeah, that's weird..
07:50	alew	hrm
07:50	hyPiRion	just (not) the thing
07:51	alew	the a, in this case?
07:51	hyPiRion	well, the (non-nil-operation)
07:55	alew	I guess it's a let-not-cond :P
07:55	alew	beacuse it only evals the statements if the test expression is false
07:58	hyPiRion	well, here's a cond-let anyway https://www.refheap.com/22921
07:58	alew	did you just write this?
07:58	alew	awesome
07:58	hyPiRion	yeah
07:59	alew	oh nice, using the if and if-let
07:59	hyPiRion	it's not that hard if you just know how to utilize the already existing macros
08:00	alew	https://www.refheap.com/22922
08:00	alew	pretty easy to make the cond-let-not
08:01	DerGuteMoritz	uncond-let :-)
08:01	alew	need to add a check for a default case
08:01	alew	doublepluscond-let
08:02	DerGuteMoritz	the default case shouldn't need special handling, it's just :else expr, no?
08:02	hyPiRion	DerGuteMoritz: yeah
08:02	DerGuteMoritz	so a regular if branch
08:02	alew	in this case it does
08:02	alew	because of the switch
08:03	alew	you want to eval the expression for the last clause if it is true
08:03	alew	or I guess you could just pass nil
08:06	alew	I fucking love macros
08:07	DerGuteMoritz	there's nothing cooler than a macro sing
08:08	alew	Great book
08:18	alew	well, the uncond-let looks pretty ugly when there are tons of statements in it
09:14	benzap	So I ran the lein help, and it's not being nice
09:15	benzap	the examples don't seem to work
09:15	benzap	any ideas?
09:27	JoltinJoe	join eclipse
09:29	sandbags	benzap: what does "not being nice" and "don't seem to work" actually mean for you?
09:40	benzap	sandbags: sorry, I should give specifics
09:40	benzap	I ran lein help tutorial
09:40	benzap	followed the tutorial
09:41	benzap	the first part that didn't work was
09:41	benzap	(user/clojurefocs pprint)
09:41	benzap	while in lein repl
09:41	benzap	i called each of the functions before that
09:42	benzap	so everything should be imported
09:42	benzap	(i think)
09:42	benzap	if you grep lein help tutorial at line "user=> (require 'my-stuff.core)"
09:42	benzap	you should be where I started executing commands
09:43	benzap	it's unclear why it fails
09:43	sandbags	(user/clojuredocs pprint) works for me
09:43	sandbags	without doing anything else
09:43	benzap	i'm going to try it again, one sec
09:44	sandbags	that "f" in clojurefocs was that a c&p error? or did you type that in the repl?
09:44	benzap	would also like to point out that i'm on emacs
09:44	benzap	with windows
09:44	benzap	and eshell
09:44	benzap	so it might even be my side
09:45	sandbags	but beyond that saying "didn't work" (again above) isn't useful to anyone trying to help you... if things fail please gist exactly what you ran and the output
09:46	benzap	so when I type (user/clojuredocs pprint)
09:46	benzap	i get CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: user/clojuredocs, compiling:(C:\Users\benzap\AppData\Local\Temp\form-init9134492706436301542.clj:1)
09:46	benzap	is this a dependency?
09:47	sandbags	i'm not sure
09:47	sandbags	it's not clear to me where the clojuredocs function is coming from
09:47	sandbags	i definitely have it here
09:48	benzap	that's strange
09:48	benzap	the second one I tried that gave me trouble
09:48	sandbags	here's my ~/.lein/profiles.clj => https://gist.github.com/mmower/b531456f82d7f842a9e4
09:48	sandbags	possibly it's coming out of there somewhere
09:49	benzap	mine doesn't have anything in it
09:49	sandbags	puzzling, i don't see the function in the clojure docs in Dash
09:50	benzap	other than :java-cmd
09:50	benzap	and an empty :plugins area
09:50	benzap	i'll copy yours and see
09:50	sandbags	i think it might require someone with more clojure experience if that doesn't fix it
09:51	benzap	maybe the second problem is a configruation issue
09:51	benzap	i'm trying the uberjar example
09:51	benzap	it compiles the uber jar
09:51	benzap	I created the ./my/stuff.clj file and put the necessary stuff inside
09:51	benzap	called lein uberjar
09:51	benzap	used their project.clj file
09:52	benzap	and when I call java -jar my-stuff**....jar
09:52	benzap	it gives me the error...
09:52	benzap	oh my
09:52	benzap	I actually just solved that problem
09:52	benzap	haha
09:53	benzap	there's a standalone, and a non-standalone
09:53	benzap	i was trying the non, which probably didn't have the necessary dependencies :S
09:54	benzap	i'm going to add your plugins and see if pprint works
10:22	Morgawr	I wish I knew scheme so I could port this http://yinwang0.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/scheme-benchmarking/ to clojure
10:37	ro_st	dnolen: been playing with om today, finally. very, very cool!
10:37	indiana	do you use https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup in production? What do you think about that?
10:38	ro_st	indiana: we use it in production. works great
10:39	indiana	for view layer in java application?
10:39	ro_st	err no
10:39	ro_st	for a clojure app
10:39	indiana	i want to use it for view layer in spring mvc application
10:40	ro_st	gosh. good luck
10:40	indiana	thanks
10:45	kzar	Are lighttable plugins explained anywhere yet?
10:50	indiana	ro_st: what is "gosh" shortcut?
11:06	pepijndevos	I forgot. What is the idiom for naming an internal function that does the work for the public one? name* or name' or something else?
11:07	locks	name* according to a podcast I heard the other day
11:07	Bronsa	pepijndevos: name*
11:08	hyPiRion	locks: cognicast or some other podcast?
11:08	pepijndevos	I think Python does _, Haskell does ' so that leaves * for clojure...
11:09	locks	hyPiRion: ruby rogues, I think
11:09	locks	can’t remember how exactly it came into the conversation
11:09	hyPiRion	Hm, I was hoping for a new Clojure podcast =/
11:10	locks	sorry to disappoint
11:22	deadghost	is there a generally recommended beginner clojure book?
11:23	deadghost	I'm going through http://www.clojurebook.com/ and am only barely following along because I already know some CL and coded some clojure
11:24	deadghost	something I can recommend to my friends without scaring the bejesus out of them
11:24	logic_prog_	is cljx the right layer to insert type checking / linting code ?
11:24	hansel-han	benzap: braveclojure (website)
11:25	arkh	deadghost: maybe this? I haven't read it but others have had good things to say about itL http://www.braveclojure.com/
11:26	hansel-han	on a similar subject, i've found that clojure is a rewarding language to teach in person
11:26	deadghost	everything is better in person
11:27	deadghost	especially when you might need to set up emacs
11:27	hansel-han	exactly
11:28	sandbags	deadghost: Clojure in Action was a pretty good starting point for me, after that Joy of Clojure, Programming Clojure, and O'Reilly Clojure Programming were much easier to cope with
11:29	deadghost	did you actually read all five
11:29	hansel-han	yeah, joy of clojure is pretty good.
11:29	xeqi	hyPiRion: what would you want to hear on a new clojure podcast?
11:29	hyPiRion	xeqi: Clojure stuff in general. Anything Clojure, really.
11:30	seubert	is clojure in action outdated?
11:30	xeqi	hyPiRion: have any equivalents from other languages for comparison?
11:30	hyPiRion	I wouldn't mind Cognicast coming out more often either, but I guess there's a limit on how much they can do.
11:30	sandbags	not really, although there is a MEAP 2nd edition
11:30	seubert	ah didn't see that
11:30	hyPiRion	xeqi: Well, there's Mostly Erlang
11:31	sandbags	i'm not sure if CiA (or, indeed, any of those books) are strictly beginner books ... i think any of them would require previous experience
11:31	sandbags	so depends who your target audience is
11:32	deadghost	sandbags, I'm going through o reilly clojure right now and barely keeping up
11:32	deadghost	would it be worthwhile to read the other books afterwards
11:32	sandbags	for me, yes
11:33	sandbags	i've not finished them all, i tend to dip in as i process new bits and pieces
11:33	sandbags	I find the O'Reilly book had the steepest learning curve
11:33	deadghost	I'm trying to set a rule for myself
11:33	deadghost	for every hour of reading
11:33	deadghost	at least 2 hours of coding
11:33	sandbags	i got wrong-footed by the Programming Clojure book, because I expected something like their Programming Ruby
11:33	sandbags	now i've more experience i am finding it a much better read
11:34	locks	joy of clojure 2ED got an update yesterday fwiw
11:35	locks	deadghost: http://videos.lispcast.com/
11:37	arkh	people talk about how that light turns on in your head - learning a lisp or functional language for the first time (coming from an imperative and OO background). It was that way for me when I was first learning clojure. It's natural now but a little frustrating at the beginning without a teacher of some kind.
11:37	sandbags	for my money Erlang was a much easier functional programming language to get wet in
11:38	deadghost	common lisp: a gentle introduction is one of my favorite books
11:40	deadghost	I never really bought into OOP so it wasn't a difficult transition
11:40	deadghost	OOP is just doesn't feel right to me
11:41	deadghost	and k&r demonstrated that state and side effects can be messy
11:42	deadghost	biggest hurdle for me was emacs really
11:43	locks	use light table xP
11:43	deadghost	does it have vim keybindings
11:43	locks	yes
11:43	sandbags	yes
11:43	locks	and emacs
11:43	sandbags	it's not vim
11:44	sandbags	but it has a reasonably useful subset
11:44	sandbags	and a dash or paredit
11:44	sandbags	s/or/of/
11:44	corecode	yey emacs
11:44	deadghost	is it worthwhile if I'm already on emacs
11:44	sandbags	depends how much you like and want to use emacs i guess
11:44	locks	it has a bunch of neat tricks under its sleeve
11:45	locks	especially if you do cljs
11:50	hansel-han	How do you develop a mental concept of datomic in such that you can have a mental model of performance impact for adding another query to a view?
11:52	arkh	hansel-han: I think of datomic queries as cheap as long as the data is present in memory over what you'd like to query
11:52	hansel-han	That was a poor question. What happens when you call the same datomic query three times in a row from a peer?
11:52	arkh	hansel-han: if it fits in memory than it will be an in-memory query, no round trip
11:53	arkh	(if the data it's querying over fits in memory ...)
11:53	hansel-han	arkh: thanks. that's pretty much what's happening in MySQL/Postgres too, right?
11:53	arkh	without round trips to a "database server", your queries can become smaller and more numerous without the downside of round-trip overhead
11:54	logic_prog	what are the semantics of clojure/spit when a file can not be written (i.e. disk full, invalid file name, file read only)
11:54	logic_prog	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/spit is surprisingly weak on documentation
11:55	hansel-han	Actually, I'm wrong about MySQL/Postgres. You still query the DB and tie it up. It just might have your data in memory.
11:55	arkh	well, outside of round trip issues w/ mysql and postgres, datomic also offers treating query results like traditional data structures you might ordinarily have to create with a traditional db
11:56	andyf	logic_prog: They are the same as the semantics of the underlying Java calls. That is a methamatician's answer, because it is 100% accurate and completely useless by itself :-)
11:56	arkh	so you don't necessarliy have to go through the exercise of copying query results into a data structure you can then use in your program
11:56	logic_prog	andyf, nah, a mthematica would be something like:
11:56	logic_prog	the semantics of spit are eaxctly the same as the semantics of spit
11:56	andyf	But seriously, if you really want to know, start with (source spit) and look up Java methods you find
11:58	arkh	one of the tricky things for me with datomic was how it returns results as a 'set'. Turns out you can finagle fetching results in insert order though
11:59	andyf	logic_prog: And if you feel super-motivated after that, consider beefing up ClojureDocs at least a little bit, even if it is only links to the relevant Java pages that describe the error cases.
11:59	hansel-han	arkh: how? right now i sort-by :thing/uid with code every time
11:59	arkh	the other tricky thing is indexing overhead - with my test data, on a vm (on a laptop) I maxed out at 9000 "rows" per second? I was hoping for more ...
12:00	logic_prog	andyf: nope, definitely not that motivated
12:00	logic_prog	andyf: I think you mistaken me for a future-clojure-contributor
12:00	andyf	logic_prog: CloureDocs is much easier to modify than the process for Clojure contribution.
12:01	arkh	hansel-han: when you do that, you're taking the set and making a sorted-set over it, which is fine if your query result isn't large. The cost of doing that on a large result set can be prohibitive, though
12:01	hansel-han	arkh: agreed. i'm just not sure how else to do it
12:03	cjfrisz	Is marmalade known to corrupt package contents?
12:03	corecode	i'm having difficulties converting from a mutable to immutable mindset
12:03	hansel-han	corecode: example?
12:03	arkh	hansel-han: totally cool if the cost for you isn't too high. I don't think there's a better way to fetch results easily. The other way is to use the lower level stuff like seek-datoms
12:03	corecode	specifically, i want to implement something that is a bit like a graph, with nodes and edges
12:03	cjfrisz	I just tried installing troncle, and troncle.el is full of garbage characters when use the package installer or download it straight off the site
12:04	cjfrisz	Evidence suggests that the version on github _isn't_ full of garbage, though
12:04	corecode	when you add a new edge, that will change the data of multiple elements
12:04	corecode	some of which might not even be in lexical scope
12:05	arkh	hansel-han: there's a chance I was using datomic incorrectly, too - I probably needed to think of creative ways to do more queries over filtered data instead of one big query over the lot of it
12:06	andyf	corecode: In the immutable mindset, adding a new edge means creating a new graph with that new edge. The old graph is still there without it, too.
12:08	andyf	corecode: It can be made more efficient than a complete copy by using structural sharing, which you would get if a graph was, say, a map with one key :nodes having a set of nodes, and another key :edges that was a map from nodes to neighboring nodes. A new graph with a new edge is mostly the same as the old one, except for a new set of nodes for one or two nodes in the :edges map.
12:09	corecode	andyf: sure, but if some code contains a reference to a node, that will diverge
12:09	hansel-han	arkh: i use d/datoms all the time, but i'm not sure what d/seek-datoms actually does from its docstring
12:10	andyf	corecode: So you want a graph where some code can hold a reference to a node, and later when that code gets, say, all edges incident to that node, it gets the latest set of edges, not merely the set that existed when it saved that reference?
12:10	kzar	dnolen: Having a quick look at React + om today and I was curious about something. Would it be possible to have the components built automatically from a HTML template similar to something like AngularJS uses?
12:11	arkh	hansel-han: I haven't used it before but I think it allows you to iteratively retrieve results in index order instead of unpredictable set order
12:11	corecode	andyf: i think so, yes
12:12	kzar	dnolen: Like a complete HTML template with bindings like {{ example }} and have Om create the components and watch a ref or similar with the page's state for changes.
12:12	corecode	andyf: i'm toying with the idea to implement a DSL
12:12	andyf	corecode: That is certainly possible to implement in Clojure, but it does sound like a mutable graph, and looking at your original comment, I think I understand it better now :-)
12:13	corecode	ok
12:14	andyf	corecode: If you are asking "should I implement my graph as mutable or immutable", then that is a harder question to answer. Not sure I could help you a lot answering it.
12:14	arkh	hansel-han: see also 'datoms' in the clojure api
12:16	kzar	dnolen: Then you could just create a HTML template in a style that's common in other frameworks, maintain a ref with the page's state and have Om worry about the binding. It would be super easy to use and it would be more of a drop in replacement. As it is I can't use it for now, I think convincing guys to rewrite HTML templates in Lisp would not go down well. (That said I could be completely missing the point.)
12:17	edw	seubert: There's a new edition of Clojure In Action in the works. I have the "advanced access" edition.
12:17	edw	seubert: Strike that. There's a new ed. of Joy of Clojure in the works. Sorry about that.
12:18	edw	(Both Manning Publications?)
12:24	michaniskin	kzar: http://hoplon.io may interest you
12:29	seubert	edw: looks like there are new editions of both!
12:38	jonathanj	hello!
12:39	jonathanj	i'm busy working my way through "Clojure for the brave bold and true" exercises
12:39	jonathanj	i'm wondering if someone can suggest how to format this in a more readable manner: http://hastebin.com/lugoviriko.lisp
12:39	kzar	jonathanj: FYI usual extension is clj
12:40	jonathanj	shrug hastebin made that up, not me
12:40	kzar	Could you give an example of using the function?
12:41	Morgawr	why the "and"?
12:42	jonathanj	(validate {:name (not nil?)} {:name "Chuck"})
12:42	jonathanj	Morgawr: well that's a follow-up question
12:43	jonathanj	Morgawr: i'd like to and all the results together, ie. all the validators return a truth
12:43	jonathanj	i thought i could do (apply and (map ...)) but apparently not
12:43	Morgawr	you can't apply and because and is a macro
12:43	Morgawr	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9218044/in-clojure-how-to-apply-and-to-a-list
12:43	Morgawr	you can use every?
12:44	jonathanj	where does `every` come from?
12:44	jonathanj	oh
12:44	Morgawr	it's 'every?' with the question mark :P
12:45	jonathanj	hrm, except that the guide hasn't talked about `every?` yet, so i'm wondering what they had in mind
12:46	noonian	,(doc every?)
12:46	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
12:46	noonian	,(every? int? [1 2 3])
12:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: int? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:46	noonian	,(every? integer? [1 2 3])
12:46	clojurebot	true
12:46	noonian	,(every? integer? [1 2 3 4.0])
12:46	clojurebot	false
12:47	andyf	Bronsa: ping
12:47	jonathanj	so any suggestions on formatting this code more readably then: http://cljbin.com/paste/52d2d492e4b0797b6a30cd3b ?
12:49	cjfrisz	jonathanj: http://cljbin.com/paste/52d2d4fde4b0797b6a30cd3c
12:49	cjfrisz	jonathanj: that's the community-accepted formatting
12:49	andyf	jonathanj: There is room for personal taste here, but in that code I would probably put the (fn ...) args on the same line as (fn, but the body of the function on the next line. Then the same with the record, auto-indented by whatever editor you use that has auto-indenting
12:50	andyf	jonathanj: What cjfrisz said :)
12:50	noonian	hmm, why the and?
12:50	hansel-han	jonathanj: in general, newline a function's arguments.
12:50	noonian	https://www.refheap.com/22964
12:50	cjfrisz	jonathanj andyf: though I respectfully disagree with the community standard formatting quite often :-)
12:50	hansel-han	noonian: that's what i do
12:51	Arjunax	How can I easily figure out (at the REPL), whether something is a function or a macro?
12:51	michaniskin	(map (fn [[k v]] ...) coll) --> (for [[k v] coll] ...)
12:51	noonian	just evaluate it
12:51	noonian	,+
12:51	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@edf7e4>
12:51	noonian	,and
12:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:51	jonathanj	noonian: thanks, i think that's nice
12:52	noonian	macro's throw an error when evaluated, functions don't because they are first class values
12:52	Arjunax	ohh okay, cool
12:52	noonian	jonathanj: thanks :)
12:52	Arjunax	thanks
12:52	andyf	Arjunax: also (:macro (meta #'and))
12:53	noonian	np
12:53	Arjunax	:)
12:54	jonathanj	michaniskin: thanks
12:54	cjfrisz	jonathanj: If you've got more style questions, here's the style guide https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
12:55	jonathanj	cjfrisz: thanks
12:57	cjfrisz	jonathanj: I found it pretty thorough, but I'm not a huge fan of all the suggestions
12:57	cjfrisz	I.e. cemerick and I both disagree with the "Align vertically function arguments." point
12:58	jonathanj	cjfrisz: some guidance like "put the body on a different line to the arguments" made a lot of sense
12:58	noonian	i try to align arguments unless the some are k/v pairs then i put the pair on one line
12:58	kzar	jonathanj: http://hastebin.com/qapoforimu.lisp << I had a quick go at writing it
12:58	noonian	some exceptions when things are like doto where the first argument is special
12:59	hansel-han	i think in most cases, if you don't align fn arguments vertically, then it's jarring because you're putting emphasis on the first argument (like that filter example)
12:59	cjfrisz	noonian: your way seems to be the majority opinion, but I dislike it as a matter of personal taste
12:59	michaniskin	the only thing about formatting that is a no-go for me is when indentation isn't right, like when eclipse is misconfigured and produces mixed tabs/spaces
13:00	cjfrisz	noonian: likely because the scheme mode I was given in college did it a different way :-p
13:00	noonian	cjfrisz: what do you prefer?
13:00	kzar	,(:jonathanj {:jonathanj "Keys can be used like functions to access values."})
13:00	clojurebot	"Keys can be used like functions to access values."
13:00	michaniskin	other than indentation clojure syntax is so simple i don't really care
13:00	hansel-han	clojure is my first lisp and the indentation of other lisp code that i come across often feels arbitrary. like every programmer just does whatever.
13:01	cjfrisz	noonian: I prefer always using two spaces indented from the enclosing s-expression for arguments on new lines
13:01	jonathanj	how can require something like clojure.string from the REPL?
13:01	noonian	even if there are some args on the same line as the fn>
13:01	michaniskin	(use 'clojure.string)
13:01	steerio	(require '[clojure.string :as s])
13:02	cjfrisz	noonian: yes
13:02	noonian	cjfrisz: i do that when put first arg on next line
13:02	steerio	jonathanj: the difference is that unlike in the (ns) form here you need to quote it
13:02	jonathanj	thanks
13:02	jonathanj	steerio: why is that?
13:02	noonian	but thats actually where i'm most inconsistent, sometimes i only use one space when i'm wrapping some forms in something like first
13:02	steerio	jonathanj: so you can require the result of an expression, i guess.
13:02	jonathanj	steerio: i'm still getting to macros, but i don't fully understand why
13:03	bbloom	cjfrisz: i vertically align arguments when they are arguments, but i 2 space indent subforms when they are code blocks
13:04	steerio	jonathanj: in fact require is a function, so when you call it, parameters get evaluated first
13:04	cjfrisz	bbloom: I only recently realized that's how almost all lispers do it outside of Indiana University
13:04	steerio	jonathanj: (require clojure.string) would look for the value of a var called clojure.string
13:05	bbloom	cjfrisz: the real issue is the threading macros! i feel that is a 2 space indent situation, but every damn indenter everywhere aligns args to -> and ->>
13:05	bbloom	grr :-P
13:05	cjfrisz	bbloom: I agree by way of thinking just about everything should be 2 space indent :-)
13:05	steerio	jonathanj: just like, say, (println clojure.string) would
13:05	noonian	hmm, i like aligning args with ->
13:06	hansel-han	not aligning will make code feel like a codeblock to me. imo the first arg to -> isn't that special.
13:06	bbloom	cjfrisz: the way i like to think of it is that i want to push "goals" to the left margin
13:06	noonian	its just the first form, only thing special is it doesn't have something threaded in imo
13:06	cjfrisz	Although I like 'if,' 'and,' and 'or' to be aligned on the first argument
13:07	bbloom	cjfrisz: lol precisely the opposite of clojure style
13:07	cjfrisz	bbloom: indeed
13:07	cjfrisz	Again, I didn't realize I had minority opinion until I started looking at common lisp and racket modes recently
13:08	steerio	in fact with a language based on S-expressions, we could have it rendered to everyone according to their taste
13:08	steerio	provided that they can express that taste programmatically
13:08	steerio	why do we even store it in text?
13:08	bbloom	steerio: not really. we still have comments which are not in the AST :-)
13:09	steerio	bbloom: can be solved easily
13:09	andyf	not everyone's tastes can be expressed programmatically
13:09	michaniskin	(comment "i am a comment!")
13:09	bbloom	";" should be infix for "add metadata to the preceding form" and ";;" to the next form :-)
13:10	steerio	michaniskin: exactly. if it's namespaced, there shall be no problems. it'd never be actually executed, the compiler would ignore it, editors would render them as s ; Foo
13:10	michaniskin	it's also an s expr, which is key for formatting with simple tools
13:11	michaniskin	once you depart from sexprs things get complicated
13:11	andyf	michaniskin: At least in current Clojure versions, (comment) blocks return nil, so depending upon where you put them they can change the meaning of your program
13:12	michaniskin	andyf: true, but #_"i am a comment" is problematic because it's not an sexpr
13:13	steerio	if i was to invent a non-text source code format, i'd add another form for this, which would be truly ignored
13:13	steerio	whenever the reader encounters it, it'd just ignore it
13:13	michaniskin	a reader pass that prepreocesses sexprs
13:13	michaniskin	like
13:13	steerio	though editors would display ; Foo
13:13	michaniskin	(#_ "this is a comment")
13:14	andyf	I wonder why this often-reinvented idea has never taken off? Seems like there would be a reason. Perhaps simply "not enough benefit for the initial switch-over trouble"?
13:15	michaniskin	why do reader macro forms not use sexpr syntax? i must be missing something
13:15	bbloom	andyf: because humans type things with keyboards
13:16	bbloom	it's pretty much that simple :-)
13:16	michaniskin	like why don't we write (# {1 2 3}) instead of #{1 2 3}
13:16	michaniskin	this would be way easier to make tooling around
13:16	bbloom	michaniskin: why don't we write (string \x \y \z) instead of "xyz" ?
13:17	michaniskin	bbloom: because strings are not really collections
13:17	bbloom	michaniskin: at some point, you have to have some syntax
13:17	michaniskin	it's still syntax because the reader would read that as a set, not a seq
13:17	bbloom	ok fine, why do we write [5 10 15] instead of (read-time-vector 5 10 15]
13:18	bbloom	michaniskin: go install Mathematica and play with FullForm
13:18	bbloom	what you want has / can be done
13:18	michaniskin	i mean why not in clojure?
13:19	hyPiRion	because it's easier for humans to read.
13:19	michaniskin	i understand that we want [1 2 3] and not (read-time-vector 1 2 3)
13:19	bbloom	b/c the syntax & reader was developed adhoc with the goal of being LL(1) instead of maintaining canonical tree form
13:19	michaniskin	but we have a limited set of punctuation on keyboards
13:20	Bronsa	andyf: pong
13:20	michaniskin	so if maps use {} then we need something else, like (# {}) for sets, or #{}
13:20	michaniskin	what i don't understand is what's the problem with (# {})?
13:20	michaniskin	an extra set of parens and a space?
13:20	bbloom	michaniskin: it would have to be primitive
13:20	bbloom	michaniskin: a macro can't do it
13:21	michaniskin	the reader would read (# {}) as (clojure.lang.PersistentSet. 1 2 3)
13:21	michaniskin	or whatever
13:21	michaniskin	it would read that in as a set
13:21	bbloom	michaniskin: that doesn't work b/c (some-macro (# 1 2 3)) would get a list instead of a set
13:21	michaniskin	as it should
13:21	andyf	Bronsa: Just noticing some Eastwood behavior I hadn't investigated fully before, and see if you knew the issue. When a source file has (set! warn-on-reflection true), I often see reflection warnings from Eastwood when it evals forms that macro-expand to things containing (.nth ...), like a doseq macro. 'lein check' gives no reflection warnings, though.
13:22	michaniskin	(# {1 2 3}) would be a set
13:22	andyf	Bronsa: I'm trying to figure out the difference in what gets eval'd in each case, but perhaps you already know.
13:22	bbloom	michaniskin: you're missing what i'm saying, maybe i'm not explaining clearly
13:22	hyPiRion	michaniskin: what's wrong with the current way of writing sets, though?
13:22	bbloom	michaniskin: it's a phasing issue
13:22	michaniskin	just like when you pass #{1 2 3} to a macro, you don't get a symbol # followed by a misformed map
13:23	michaniskin	bbloom: because source code isn't a tree
13:23	michaniskin	bbloom: that makes editor tooling complicated
13:23	michaniskin	bbloom: you now need to invent "false trees"
13:23	bbloom	michaniskin: no no, it's just that the reader combines two phases
13:23	bbloom	there is no "false trees"
13:23	bbloom	the syntax is already a tree, but we skip a step w/ the reader
13:23	michaniskin	bbloom: how do you edit #{1 2 3} structurally?
13:24	Bronsa	andyf: might be emit-form forgetting to attach some :tag metadata, I'll look into that
13:24	michaniskin	say you want to make that into a map
13:24	andyf	Bronsa: Want a ticket with a short example?
13:24	bbloom	michaniskin: you can easily imagine a new namespace called clojure.syntax
13:24	michaniskin	bbloom: the editor needs to treat #{1 2 3} as (# [1 2 3]), basically
13:24	bbloom	michaniskin: and you can write a parser that produces a tree of lists where things like #{1 2 3} get translated to (clojure.syntax/set 1 2 3)
13:24	bbloom	michaniskin: but then you need to do something the reader does: convert syntax to data types
13:25	bbloom	michaniskin: that has to happen BEFORE macros
13:25	michaniskin	bbloom: of course, but now we're reverse engineering the clojure reader, which isn't formally specified
13:25	bbloom	michaniskin: (mac #{}) will call the function backing mac with a set, not with a list
13:25	hyPiRion	michaniskin: who says the editor does? That sounds a bit strange
13:25	Bronsa	andyf: sure, thanks
13:25	bbloom	michaniskin: ignore the editor, ignore the clojure implementation of the reader
13:25	bbloom	michaniskin: a reader in general combines two phases: parsing and evaluation of syntax forms
13:26	bbloom	michaniskin: you can write a function that walks [:some [:tree] [:like :this] [:set 1 2 3]] and turns :set nodes in to PersistentHashSet objects
13:26	bbloom	michaniskin: the clojure reader is simply doing that during parsing b/c the compiler has no need for the unresolved tree
13:27	michaniskin	bbloom: you're missing my point
13:27	michaniskin	bbloom: suppose foo is a macro, right? somewhere you call (foo #{1 2}). what does foo see? a set. why? because the reader read the #{1 2 3} form at the call site
13:28	bbloom	michaniskin: the macro sees a set b/c that's what a macro is defined to do
13:28	bbloom	michaniskin: i can invent a new type of "macro" that sees pre-reader-evaluation forms
13:28	michaniskin	bbloom: same thing with this: (foo (# [1 2 3])). the reader would read (# [1 2 3]) at the call site
13:28	michaniskin	and foo would see a set
13:29	andyf	Bronsa: Woah. It isn't even deterministic. I get about 50% of the time in a short example. WIll mention in the ticket.
13:30	gtrak	is there a built in way to get cider to send nrepl a 'complete' message?
13:30	bbloom	michaniskin: if it helps to think in terms of types, you've got an AST tree type and an Any type. A "parser" returns AST. A reader returns "Any". Macros are functions of Any -> Any. You could create "syntax macros" that operate on AST -> AST
13:30	bbloom	michaniskin: eval operates on Any, not on AST
13:31	michaniskin	bbloom: you could do any number of things. my question was what's wrong with (# [1 2 3]) syntax instead of #{1 2 3}, operationally? i don't buy the argument that one set of parens is a burden
13:32	coventry	Have most people switched over to cider.el at this point?
13:32	bbloom	michaniskin: lol oh, that's you're argument? you're actually arguing that you'd rather less syntax?
13:32	bbloom	michaniskin: syntax, it turns out, is useful to humans :-P
13:32	michaniskin	bbloom: i would prefer (# [1 2 3]), because my editor could then show me #{1 2 3} if that's what i like
13:32	michaniskin	bbloom: but the editor itself could be far, far simpler
13:33	michaniskin	especially since the clojure reader is not formally specified anywhere as far as i know
13:33	noonian	but then if our editor doesn't have that support we are soul
13:33	michaniskin	noonian: but your editor would, because it wouldn't be black magic
13:33	noonian	out of luck
13:34	michaniskin	displaying quirky syntax is a job for an editor, not a reader, imho
13:34	bbloom	michaniskin: you're still conflating parsing and reading; syntax and semantics
13:35	michaniskin	bbloom: lol ok man
13:35	bbloom	michaniskin: i don't see how having a more uniform grammar would help your editor in any interesting way if your editor is already operating at the AST level
13:35	hyPiRion	michaniskin: then I don't get why you don't have issues with [] and {}. With only one set of delimiters to consider, an editor will be vastly more simple.
13:37	michaniskin	hyPiRion: because [] and {} can be edited the same way as (), basically
13:37	hyPiRion	michaniskin: so can #{}, unless you've hardcoded that delimiters must be 1 char for start and stop
13:38	michaniskin	hyPiRion: it's not that simple
13:38	michaniskin	hyPiRion: consider #{1 \|2 3}
13:38	michaniskin	where the point is at the \|
13:38	Bronsa	andyf: ... guess what. I got bitten again by clojure silently ignoring :tag
13:38	michaniskin	i want to delete the 2 and convert the set into a map. how to do?
13:39	michaniskin	hyPiRion: clearly, that set would need to be structured as (# [1 2 3])
13:39	hyPiRion	michaniskin: clearly? I don't see any argument for why that is.
13:39	andyf	Bronsa: Pardon me for a moment while I continue to be stunned at the speed at which you find such things :-)
13:39	clojurebot	Huh?
13:40	noonian	wont #{1 2 3} get re-written as (set 1 2 3) or something by the reader?
13:40	michaniskin	bbloom: the AST is not that you print to the source file, btw. you print things that can be read by the reader
13:40	michaniskin	bbloom: once you have the AST you've lost reader macro info
13:40	Bronsa	andyf: http://sprunge.us/aEIV?diff this should do it. Let me double-check for a minute and then I'll push the fix
13:40	hyPiRion	michaniskin: #{1 2 3} can just be modified in the same way as a list, vector and map can be.
13:41	bbloom	michaniskin: (def reader (comp eval-reader-literals parse))
13:41	michaniskin	hyPiRion: how do you delete the # there?
13:41	hyPiRion	michaniskin: same way as you replace a {, [ or (, by removing it
13:41	bbloom	michaniskin: no, that's not true. that's only true of clojure's current reader b/c clojure's compiler doesn't need that info & so they combined the parser & parse-time evaluator
13:41	andyf	Bronsa: Would the place you've found this explain the nondeterminism of results, too?
13:42	Bronsa	no idea about that
13:42	michaniskin	bbloom: your argument is similar to the argument that scala macros are as awesome as clojure macros
13:43	bbloom	michaniskin: scala's macros are fundamentally different from clojure's macros
13:43	bbloom	michaniskin: scala macros operate on the AST, clojure's macros operate on Any
13:43	michaniskin	bbloom: you can have a hyper-complex AST representation, yes, but it isn't better than having sexps
13:43	andyf	Bronsa: OK, in my debugging I have pprint'ed every form given to clojure.core/eval in Eastwood's analyze-file, with metadata included, and I have two runs where one gives the warning, and the other does not, but the pprint'ed forms are identical.
13:44	bbloom	michaniskin: you've having two arguments at once: 1) editing at the text level is hard regex fu and 2) something about sexps all the way down
13:44	Bronsa	andyf: oh, that's it then.
13:44	Bronsa	sometimes the type hint is a Symbol, sometimes it's a Class
13:44	Bronsa	when it's a Class, the Compiler ignores the hint
13:45	bbloom	michaniskin: i'm saying 1) regex fu works just fine for me in vim land, but you can operate at the AST level if you want to make that easy & in that case, the syntax doesn't matter 2) you can have sexps all the way down if you just separate parsing from evaluating. see Mathematica
13:45	andyf	But why would it sometimes be a Symbol, and sometimes a Class, when I'm analyzing the same source file?
13:45	michaniskin	bbloom: so specifically why is #{1 2 3} better than (# [1 2 3])?
13:45	bbloom	michaniskin: because humans like syntax
13:45	michaniskin	bbloom: so the parens
13:45	michaniskin	that's all i was looking for
13:45	Bronsa	andyf: oh. in the same form? weird.
13:45	steerio	and you'd mix reader macros with macro calls
13:46	steerio	the two are different animals
13:46	michaniskin	steerio: no, you can't name a macro #
13:46	steerio	i mean if your idea was implemented, which implies that you can
13:46	michaniskin	steerio: the two methods are equivalent, i think, operationally
13:46	andyf	Bronsa: Yeah, I made the one-file project described in the latest TANAL ticket, ran Eastwood multiple times with the extra pprint'ing just before eval, and gotten identical results on 2 runs except for the Reflection warning in one, none in the other.
13:46	michaniskin	it's just a matter of taste, apparently
13:46	Bronsa	:/
13:46	steerio	michaniskin: well no, because your example is a nonexistent form
13:46	andyf	The pprint'ing doesn't show whether it is a symbol or a class, so your explanation could still be correct.
13:47	bbloom	michaniskin: yes, the parens... but that's why i lead by saying something like (clojure.syntax/string \x \y \z), hell even then (clojure.syntax/string (clojure.syntax\char .....
13:47	steerio	,(# [1 2 3])
13:47	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Reader tag must be a symbol>
13:47	andyf	or maybe the pprint'ing would distinguish between Symbol and Class?
13:47	Bronsa	andyf: I'm positive that the bug is caused by that, still no idea why it doesn't happen every time
13:47	michaniskin	steerio: i meant if the reader read that as a set
13:47	steerio	gtg
13:47	Bronsa	no, symbols and classes prints the same unfortunately
13:47	michaniskin	steerio: it would require a different reader
13:47	steerio	though i'd love to continue this
13:47	steerio	maybe sometime
13:48	andyf	Bronsa: The pprint'ed form I see contains this sub-form that causes the reflection warning: (.nth ^clojure.lang.IChunk chunk_4449 o_4451)
13:48	Bronsa	andyf: can you try and see if it's still non-deterministic if you move the doseq out of the defn?
13:48	andyf	sure
13:51	jonathanj	steerio: ah, good point
13:52	andyf	Bronsa: yes it is still nondeterministic with a doseq at the top level of the source file, not inside a defn
13:53	Bronsa	no idea. I'll investigate a bit
13:56	Bronsa	andyf: I pushed the fix and updated eastwood to use the new SNAPSHOT
13:57	Bronsa	andyf: just another theory, can you ensure warn-on-reflection is actually true both times?
14:04	andyf	Bronsa: Need to go for a while. Will look into it more later today.
14:05	Bronsa	ok, thanks
14:58	pepijndevos	waaaaiiit... > < >= <= only work on numbers? What about other comparables?
15:00	pjstadig	pepijndevos: surprise!
15:03	bbloom	,(< [5] [10])
15:03	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
15:03	bbloom	huh.
15:04	bbloom	,(compare [5] [10])
15:04	clojurebot	-1
15:04	bbloom	,(compare [10] [5])
15:04	clojurebot	1
15:04	bbloom	pepijndevos: pjstadig: i did not realize :-P
15:05	hyPiRion	,(= [[10] [5]] (sort [[10] [5]]))
15:05	clojurebot	false
15:05	hyPiRion	,(= [[5] [10]] (sort [[5] [10]]))
15:05	clojurebot	true
15:05	pepijndevos	now have a look at subseq, and be amazed.
15:05	bbloom	,(doc subseq)
15:05	clojurebot	"([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key]); sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true"
15:06	pepijndevos	&(subseq (sorted-set \a \b \c \d \d) > /b)
15:06	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: /b
15:06	pepijndevos	&(subseq (sorted-set \a \b \c \d \d) > \b)
15:06	lazybot	⇒ (\c \d)
15:17	bbloom	has anybody tried a breadth-first traversal with clojure.zip ?
15:17	bbloom	seems quite tricky...
15:23	pjstadig	hmm yeah
15:23	pjstadig	just DFS for me
15:39	kristof	Are takes from async channels guaranteed atomic?
15:39	kristof	Meaning two processes can't take from the channel and end up with the same item
15:40	kristof	Or is taking and putting ALSO an asynchronous process and the channel itself decides which consumer gets what item? :)
15:40	kristof	I'm sorry if there's some fundamental misunderstanding I'm showing, here
15:44	arkh	kristof: it looks like those operations are made atomic through explicit locks, e.g. https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/channels.clj
15:44	arkh	kristof: a given item could only be take!'n once
15:44	kristof	arkh: I thought you were going to link to Rich Hickey's buffer code because I thought that would be where the logic lies but I suppose not
15:45	kristof	arkh: Do you think there would be a performance benefit to making channels themselves be asynchronous as well, letting the channel be
15:45	kristof	well I guess I'm thinking of actors
15:45	kristof	the channel could be an agent that sends the next item to the process (whose name is known to the agent already) and so no explicit locking is necessary at all
15:46	kristof	But then the channel itself would not be so lightweight, would it? Hrm. Oh well :)
15:46	arkh	kristof: but then how are agents already coded? : ) I think it acquires a lock, too
15:47	kristof	arkh: Do they? Nothing actually accesses an agent's state besides the agent itself, I thought, so locking would be keeping nothing out.
15:47	kristof	But I am probably wrong in this regard
15:48	arkh	kristof: as far as whether it'd be more efficient to put that into an async process (like a go block, etc.) I think that takes me out of my depth - I'd just be speculating
15:49	kristof	arkh: Huh? Go blocks use channels, so implementing channels in terms of go blocks doesn't make much sense. :) Anyway, I'm out of my depth, too, I was just wondering about the implementation of channels
15:50	bbloom	pjstadig: give breadth first a try, turns out it's actually hard :-P
15:50	arkh	kristof: I could be wrong but I believe concurrent operations on agents are aligned single-file through through speculative lock, simliar to atoms, i.e. attempt exclusive access to a given thing and then verify nothing else tried to do the same. The difference between and atom and an agent is what happens in the code after the lock is verified to be ok
15:50	bbloom	pjstadig: http://www.eecs.usma.edu/webs/people/okasaki/icfp00.ps <- general functional breadth-first numbering. not w/ a zipper
15:51	kristof	So I guess all real concurrency involving shared state relies on locks at least on some level of abstraction?
15:51	bbloom	pjstadig: very trick
15:51	bbloom	y
15:51	arkh	kristof: sorry, I meant like a go block in style but not in code
15:51	bbloom	pjstadig: whoops, bad url
15:51	bbloom	http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/chris-okasaki/breadth-first.pdf there
15:52	arkh	kristof: I though clojure mvcc mostly revolved around speculative locks w/ retries
15:52	arkh	kristof: even agents - it's just the meat of your code doesn't run until things are verified
15:53	kristof	brb while I learn what a speculative lock is
15:59	arkh	kristof: I should have said "stm" instead of "mvcc" back there
16:00	kristof	arkh: I'm sorry, I thought those were synonymous.
16:02	arkh	kristof: in a general sense, a speculative lock is one where code attempts to make a change to something (presumbaly shared and) mutable and it checks to make sure nothing else changed it at the same time. If not, the change (or transaction) is committed, if something else modified it concurrently, then the operation or transaction is retried until it
16:02	arkh	succeeds. Technically clojure won't retry forever and will error out if there happens to be too much contention. I've never seen that though - I doubt it's common!
16:04	kristof	So a speculative lock tries, checks, then commits or retries.
16:04	arkh	kristof: oh .. it looks like STM is the problem category and MVCC is how clojure solves it
16:04	kristof	And STM is just large-scale manipulation of speculative locks.
16:06	arkh	mvcc seems to be about speculative locks and keeping old values of ref types around until such time as nothing refers to the value and it'll be gc'ed
16:06	fredyr	kristof: arkh: I've found this page very helpful in understanding more about the clojure stm, http://java.ociweb.com/mark/stm/article.html
16:07	arkh	fredyr: nice!
16:08	fredyr	you might like this one too: https://github.com/tvcutsem/stm-in-clojure
16:09	kristof	arkh: According to the link fredyr just sent, there's nothing inherently about actors that needs to include locks in the implementation, which is what I suspected. I will look up the implementation of agents in Clojure, though, and find out.
16:10	mercwithamouth	does anyone have any good enfocus projects besides chatter-box on github?
16:15	arkh	kristof: is there any way to do safe concurrency without some kind of lock/mutex/etc. or forcing changes to be single-threaded?
16:16	arkh	kristof: it looks like agents are ultimately managed by this: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LockingTransaction.java
16:16	kristof	arkh: Concurrency is only unsafe when there's shared state between threads. An actor, as far as I can tell, always operates within a single thread, so there's never any unsafeness.
16:17	arkh	kristof: isn't that parallelism instead of concurrency though? : )
16:18	kristof	arkh: Maybe, if you want to look at it that way. But then that's the reason why actors are so cool: because you're not ever forced to deal with shared state.
16:18	kristof	Then again, isn't an actor's mailbox shared state? ...............
16:19	arkh	maybe the mailbox is managed by a single event/dispatch thread .... I know zero about actors!
16:19	kristof	I'm not smart enough for this :(
16:20	arkh	I'm having fun trying to stretch what little I know!
16:22	kristof	arkh: The agent.java code in the tree never imports locking transaction. How did you come to that conclusion?
16:23	dgrnbrg	How can I express core async in one pithy sentence to an audience that learned about the epochal model of time 1 slide before? (for http://flausenhaus.org/lambda/ )
16:24	egghead	in all my use of clj i've never needed agents
16:24	dgrnbrg	"Communicate by sending messages over channels" is what i'm thinking, but I feel like that doesn't capture the awesomeness of alt!
16:25	kristof	egghead: Timothy Baldridge said last night (or the night before) that he's never really used STM in a way that it didn't get replaced by core.async code or agents when he refactored. To each their own, but some people like transactions!
16:25	kristof	dgrnbrg: Epochal model of time doesn't really have much to do with understanding core.async in my opinion. The best way to put it would be to use the consumer/producer analogy.
16:26	arkh	kristof: taking an agent operation like 'send', for example, ends up calling .dispatch on clojure.lang.Agent. dispatch calls dispatchAction which, at the beginning of its operation, calls LockingTransaction.getRunning()
16:26	egghead	consumer producer / pubsub doesn't do justice to core.async :p
16:26	dgrnbrg	kristof: I know that the epochal model of time doesn't have much to do with core.async, which is why I'm not sure how to express it
16:27	dgrnbrg	we don't really have time to go over core.async in the class, but I'd like to be like "yo, this is a powerful, cool model, and here's a 30 second teaser"
16:28	locks	I liked how in dnolen’s presentation
16:28	egghead	reading and writing to channels kind of captures what it is to be async, time independent, but you get to write it as if it were sync :)
16:29	kristof	dgrnbrg: There are really two cool parts to core.async in my opinion. The first is the ability to take two processes and let them run at the same time and talk to each other. The second cool thing is the go macro, which takes benign sequential looking code and smashes it all together into a state machine.
16:29	locks	he went from not accepting repeated sequential keys to not accepting repeated keys ever
16:30	dgrnbrg	kristof: I feel like those aren't compelling features of core.async, since you can do that with threads and java.util.concurrent
16:31	dgrnbrg	alts! and user-space threading are the novel parts of core.async, but they're not so easy to explain unless you've written code without them
16:31	kristof	dgrnbrg: not the state machine stuff?
16:31	dgrnbrg	the state machine stuff only exists so that the user-space scheduler can exist
16:31	kristof	That's what I was talking about
16:31	dgrnbrg	since you can accomplish the same thing with threads + blocking calls, and that scales to thousands of processes
16:32	dgrnbrg	"processes", aka threads
16:32	kristof	hmmm
16:32	egghead	alts! is really cool because it is explicit non-determinism
16:34	egghead	but >! is not the same sort of thing as regular communication between threads or agents
16:34	egghead	it's got transactional semantics
16:35	afhammad	what does it mean when a function is prefixed with ->, for example something/->dothis
16:35	arkh	I like this project's extension of core.async: https://github.com/tonsky/net.async
16:36	AimHere	afhammad, -> and ->> are just macros for making code more readable in some cases
16:36	dgrnbrg	egghead: you can get that using java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue, if you want the blocking channel semantics
16:36	dgrnbrg	egghead: and you can get a more powerful version of an unbuffered channel using an exchanger: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Exchanger.html
16:36	AimHere	afhammad, the idea is that instead of (foo (bar (baz (wibble x))))), you write (-> x (wibble) (baz) (bar) (foo))
16:37	AimHere	Or something to that effect
16:37	egghead	dgrnbrg: ah yes, but now you have blocked threads ;)
16:37	afhammad	AimHere: is that always the case? what about: services/->Services
16:37	egghead	not the same as how core.async puts threads to sleep inside their state machines
16:37	dgrnbrg	egghead: threads are quite scalable--a 24 core machine can easily handle thousands of threads
16:38	egghead	'parking' or w/e
16:38	dgrnbrg	the OS is quite effective at parking native threads
16:38	AimHere	afhammad, ->Services is a different symbol from -> and so I don't know what that's all about, probably defined in the project somewhere else
16:39	dnolen	dgrnbrg: I think the fact that core.async was designed w/ ClojureScript in mind from the start is pretty compelling.
16:39	dnolen	dgrnbrg: but maybe your audience is mostly concerned with server-side affairs
16:39	dgrnbrg	they're a mix
16:40	dgrnbrg	that is a good point, however--I'm going to mention the JS support, because that is pretty awesome
16:40	egghead	i think core.async is a nice async lib, but I think it is a better example of why macros are so cool
16:41	egghead	macros let clojure borrow all the good ideas from other langs :)
16:43	edw	egghead: <http://poseur.com/java-scheme>.
16:44	egghead	edw: :)
16:44	edw	Some hairy macroage in there.
16:45	edw	Writing macros is the only intellectual activity where I feel actual, literal nausea when things get real.
16:46	edw	Staring into the abyss so others needn't.
16:51	edw	Speaking of... May need a macro to introduce arbitrary search depth for a cascalog graph app. Hand-writing n-level transitivity is ugly and tedious.
18:39	gtrak	80% of the way to a cljs autocomplete lib, analogous to clojure.complete :-)
18:40	gtrak	I'm hoping someone will help me with the emacs part.
18:41	bitemyapp	egghead: macros aren't the only way :)
18:42	gtrak	the interaction between nrepl, austin, piggieback, ac-nrepl and clojure-mode is.. a bit hairy.
18:43	gtrak	like.. I think I'll have to disable ac-nrepl, since it actually evals code instead of just sending over a "complete" op.
18:44	bitemyapp	ac-nrepl lags too much for me to use.
18:44	gtrak	all this effort because I was trying to build something with om and got fed up with looking at github :-)
18:45	gtrak	bitemyapp: do you have autocomplete through ritz or something else?
18:45	gtrak	I noticed that's one thing that actually uses a 'complete' nrepl op
18:45	gtrak	and I'm modeling the ensuing piggieback integration after that.
18:45	bitemyapp	gtrak: I use the dumb Emacs AC. It's annoying.
18:46	bitemyapp	gtrak: uh, in Clojure anyway. I have smarter tooling elsewhere.
18:46	gtrak	blah blah blah haskell
18:46	bitemyapp	I didn't say it.
18:46	gtrak	not today :-)
18:46	bitemyapp	all you bro./
18:46	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:46	bitemyapp	oh shush up bot.
18:47	gtrak	not having autocomplete wasn't a problem before, since I wasn't learning a bunch of new libraries.
18:48	gtrak	or writing my own for everything.
18:48	gtrak	rather, I _was_ writing my own. Hopefully once this infra is in place, it won't be too hard to get M-. going.
18:49	bitemyapp	gtrak: you know what helps even more for reading code you didn't write?
18:49	bitemyapp	gtrak: I give ya two guesses.
18:49	gtrak	printing it?
18:49	amalloy	eyeglasses
18:49	bitemyapp	gtrak: types.
18:50	gtrak	hahaha
18:50	bitemyapp	amalloy: only if you want >80 columns.
18:50	gtrak	I use reading glasses occasionally, different focus lengths helps with eyestrain over the course of a week.
18:50	bitemyapp	gtrak: but 4rlz though. Made up that type signature of the fly: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=Ord+a+%3D%3E+%5Ba%5D+-%3E+a
18:51	gtrak	ah, that is pretty cool actually, but that means I have to use haskell.
18:52	bitemyapp	that would appear to be the tradeoff.
18:52	gtrak	still, I end up reading all the code of every lib I use, anyway, tooling just helps me jump around quickly.
18:52	bitemyapp	gtrak: oh sure, but the types still help: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/src/Data-List.html#maximum
18:52	bitemyapp	gtrak: :browse in ghci dumps the types and fn names of the module you passed.
18:53	bitemyapp	gtrak: so it's pretty easy to get a 1,000 km overview that way and then start diving into the code.
18:53	gtrak	one day :-)
18:53	gtrak	it's been on my list for about 3 years, never the top item..
18:53	bitemyapp	gtrak: well, if you ever want a jump-start, advice, ideas, etc. - ping me.
18:54	bitemyapp	gtrak: it's a learning process very amenable to hammock time.
18:54	gtrak	yea, that's a good feeling.
18:56	gtrak	for now I'm just trying to hack stuff out as fast as possible in clj/cljs.
18:56	gtrak	because of the 'reach' aspect.
18:58	bitemyapp	gtrak: I gotcha. Reach?
19:00	gtrak	yea.. baltimore's mobile/web/rails folks mostly, with some java for govt contractors, we just started a real clojure meetup, which is still pretty esoteric, but it's getting better. With cljs, I can hopefully show up at hackathons and impress :-).
19:01	bitemyapp	gtrak: I've been doing a mixture of tool building, benchmarking, dev-ops automation, and web stuff in Haskell with Fay on the frontend for JS.
19:01	gdev	well I've been meaning to reduce my Haskell naivete
19:01	bitemyapp	wish the day job leveraged more of it, but my current project at work is hyper Python-specific.
19:01	gtrak	that sounds fun, you're in the west coast, yea?
19:01	bitemyapp	gtrak: Yay Area, I live in SF.
19:01	bitemyapp	gtrak: trying to get the fack out of here.
19:01	gtrak	yea... the tech scene here is really indy.
19:01	gtrak	in comparison.
19:01	bitemyapp	indie?
19:01	gtrak	yea, I guess :-)
19:02	gtrak	I never try to spell that.
19:02	bitemyapp	I'm just unclear on what it's meant to mean.
19:02	gtrak	little, mostly low-profile startups
19:02	gdev	bitemyapp, have you used Haskell with Datomic?
19:03	gtrak	but it's a close-knit group.
19:03	edw	Philly is like that: a lot of small companies that call themselves start-ups but are actually just basically mom-and-pop internet companies run by twenty/thirty-something hipsters.
19:04	gtrak	edw: it's probably not so different, I'd guess philly was bigger.
19:04	bitemyapp	gdev: I'm all-up-ons with Datomic at work but I haven't had time to poke around with hEdn in Haskell yet.
19:04	bitemyapp	gdev: my Haskell projects are mostly PGSQL at the moment because esqueleto is RIDIC.
19:04	gtrak	baltimore has the DC influence, a lot of folks commute there and back.
19:04	bitemyapp	gdev: regardless, it'd mean going over a proxy like berossus to talk to Datomic.
19:04	gtrak	so, clojure realistically will interest someone here, haskell I'd be on my own, I'm afraid.
19:06	gdev	bitemyapp oh, damn, I was hoping to find something that Clojure-the-language would let you do that Haskell-the-language couldn't ;)
19:06	edw	gtrak: Philly may be similar in that the 212-215 and 202-215 thing is practical. And the 215 has banks and pharmas. So there's the bimodal distribution of companies split betweem the aforementioned and people sucking corporate cock.
19:06	gtrak	b/c the higher-skilled ruby folks are starting to be more open-minded, and I see hadoop and big-data influencing things, which implies JVM.
19:06	bitemyapp	gtrak: learn it for the epiphany, same reason people learned Lisp for the last couple decades. Offer still stands for my time.
19:06	gtrak	bitemyapp: I hope to take you up on it sometime.
19:06	bitemyapp	Makes sense re: Hadoop, but I strongly suspect you could still put something together.
19:07	bitemyapp	gdev: nice try! Haskell has best-in-the-industry parser libraries. Something like edn wasn't going to stop anybody.
19:07	locks	parsec is kinda good
19:07	bitemyapp	attoparsec too.
19:09	kanja	is there a way with cider to see a specific line of code where an error occurred?
19:09	gtrak	kanja: stacktraces have file-and-line info generally
19:09	kanja	Something like "ArityException Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)" is informative, but it would be great if I could jump right to the fn call that caused the error
19:10	edw	kanja: And if they don't, it may be because you "C-x X-e"'d and didn't "C-c C-k".
19:10	gdev	bitemyapp, ha, that was my first and last attempt too, life is too short for PLT trolling
19:10	amalloy	kanja: (1) the full stacktrace already contains that information, if you'd pasted it to refheap or something; (2) you have code that looks like (x) when you just want x
19:10	gtrak	it's not easy to jump into java, eclipse has a roundabout way of implementing it, though, involving downloading the source artifacts from maven.
19:11	bitemyapp	gdev: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asgiNZrcJ44
19:11	kanja	@edw - yeah that I did do.
19:12	bitemyapp	gdev: watch with audio.
19:12	gdev	bitemyapp, yeah that's how I feel lol
19:12	kanja	but I'm also getting the error at run time rather than load
19:12	kanja	so c-c c-k works, but then (myfun someargument) in cider fails
19:13	gdev	bitemyapp, if I'm ever in your area or if you're ever in San Antonio I'll totally pair with you on some Haskell hacking
19:14	bitemyapp	gdev: Sure! I'm more likely to be in Austin or Seattle when I'm not in SF in the near future though. I've paired with others over the internet successfully though.
19:15	bitemyapp	gdev: learning how to pair remotely is a useful skill regardless.
19:15	bitemyapp	paired with others over the internet for Haskell and for day-job stuff both.
19:16	gdev	bitemyapp that's true, well just name the time and the project and add me to skype ha
19:16	gdev	or I'll add you because I bet I can guess your skype name
19:17	bitemyapp	gdev: I've got a list. I'm working on rewriting bitemyapp.com (1) so that I can post a benchmarking project (2). I've also got grom (3) and other projects.
19:17	bitemyapp	gdev: you won't.
19:17	bitemyapp	my skype name is ancient and eldritch, nobody could ever guess it.
19:18	bitemyapp	gdev: I'm not bitemyapp on Skype. I am on github/twitter though.
19:20	bitemyapp	I might need to fix hEdn if it's implemented based on the spec (4) or possibly write my own library (5).
19:25	bitemyapp	I'm always up for plain ole tutorials too.
19:28	gdev	yeah that might be about my level at the moment
19:29	bitemyapp	gdev: there are some prereqs involved. The idioms in Haskell are varied and rich but require building blocks like mathematics.
19:29	bitemyapp	emphasis "like".
19:30	bitemyapp	gdev: Once 80% of this makes sense http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia you'll be a long way already.
19:32	gdev	bitemyapp yeah I have a lot of homework to do
19:35	gdev	had a problem so I thought I would log on to IRC, now I have a mountain to climb
20:23	logic_prog	in clojure.core.async, is there a way to say: "close this channel if I have not received anythin gfrom it in 5 minutes" ?
20:23	logic_prog	i.e., there's a timer on the channel
20:23	logic_prog	then after every message, the timer gets set to (current time + 5 minutes)
20:25	amalloy	logic_prog: every time you try to take from it, use alts! to also take from a 5-minute timeout channel, right? and close the main channel if you got a message from the timeout instead?
20:26	logic_prog	so I create a _new_ channel on every take-mejssage via <! ?
20:26	logic_prog	that seems sorta expensive
20:26	amalloy	the usual caveats apply: i don't actually use core.async, so alts! may not quite the right function
20:26	logic_prog	or are channels that cheap?
20:26	amalloy	sure, why not?
20:26	logic_prog	maybe I shoud write the code + benchmark it
20:26	logic_prog	rather than use imaginary optimizations
20:27	amalloy	yeah, i would be quite surprised if making a channel were much more expensive than receiving from one
20:27	bitemyapp	amalloy: sounds fine to me.
20:27	amalloy	like, in js the code for creating a timeout channel has got to be something like: allocate a Channel object; setTimeout(5000, function () {write to the channel})
20:28	bitemyapp	logic_prog: don't pre-optimize or anticipate from a position of obscurity. Proceed with the clean and simple thing and wait for performance problems to arise.
20:28	logic_prog	bitemyapp: you are wise
20:28	logic_prog	i'm procrastinating with these imaginary perfomrnace bottlenecks
20:28	amalloy	a popular pastime
20:28	amalloy	i prefer to procrastinate by answering questions in #clojure
20:29	testcloj	l
20:29	edw	There's beene a lot of yak shaving going on today.
20:29	edw	s/beene/been/
20:29	testcloj	cl
20:29	testcloj	(map #(into {} [[1 2]]) [:a :b :c]) didn't give result of {1 2, 1 2, 1 2}? instead it throws error
20:29	testcloj	why it doesn't work?
20:30	amalloy	#(into {} [[1 2]]) is a function of zero arguments, and you passed it one
20:30	amalloy	you could instead use (constantly {1 2]), for example
20:30	edw	It's a function of zero arguments because your #(...) form contains no percent signs.
20:32	amalloy	it also looks sorta like you imagine this starting with an empty map and mutating it three times, rather than starting with three distinct empty maps and conjing to each (not mutating)
20:35	testcloj	great, thx. this works: (map #(let [a %] into {} [[1 2]]) [:a :b :c])
20:38	testcloj	but the result is [[1 2]] [[1 2]] [[1 2]] instead of {1 2} {1 2} {1 2} , since I used into {}, the result should have a map, correct?
20:40	hyPiRion	testcloj: you need to wrap it in a paren first
20:41	hyPiRion	,(map #(let [a %] (into {} [[1 2]])) [:a :b :c])
20:41	clojurebot	({1 2} {1 2} {1 2})
20:41	hyPiRion	vs
20:41	hyPiRion	,(map #(let [a %] into {} [[1 2]]) [:a :b :c])
20:41	clojurebot	([[1 2]] [[1 2]] [[1 2]])
20:48	testcloj	Thanks hyPiRion, but why wrap in a paren make a differnce? I am a newbie to cljure, might be a stupid quesiotn
20:52	bitemyapp	logic_prog: careful with words like that, the rabble might get angry and toss you off a cliff.
21:00	logic_prog	I need to setup something (probably not using clojure, but it's part of a clojure web app) to do a key/value store which supports (1) authentication and (2) expiring urls
21:00	logic_prog	i.e. my clojure app authenticates "hey, you have access to object XYZ, go fetch it from y other server"
21:00	logic_prog	then the other server looks at the certificate for "give me XYZ", authenticates it, and returns it
21:01	logic_prog	what is the easiest way to setup this "k/v store" with authentication + expiring urls
21:01	bitemyapp	logic_prog: so, you want a CMS with an ACL?
21:01	logic_prog	acl = access control list, yes
21:01	logic_prog	cms = contant management system ?
21:01	bitemyapp	content
21:01	logic_prog	basically I want something like riak, or hbase + authentication
21:01	logic_prog	it's for hosting static constant
21:01	logic_prog	i.e. think instangram / snapchat hosting of photos
21:03	logic_prog	ideally, this k/v store responds over http
21:05	bitemyapp	logic_prog: static content? you want riak, not HBase.
21:05	bitemyapp	logic_prog: HBase is not made for static content yo.
21:05	bitemyapp	logic_prog: Riak with the Bitcask backend specifically.
21:06	logic_prog	sorry, I meant hdfs
21:06	logic_prog	riak + authentication would make me happy
21:06	CaptainLex	Does anyone have any shoreleave experience? Is there a way to add middleware to a specific remote?
21:07	logic_prog	http://docs.basho.com/riakcs/latest/cookbooks/Authentication/ looks like what I want
21:07	logic_prog	query string optimiations
21:09	Janiczek	hi, when using Emacs + CIDER (nREPL), is it somehow possible to print the results of C-M-x (interactive eval) to the repl and not to the "Messages" statusbar row at the bottom? possibly with the evaluated form, so that it behaves as if I copy-pasted it to the REPL? (sorry for the probably wrong naming of things)
21:18	arohner	stupid core.async question. I want to give someone a channel, and take messages from it and do stuff with them. It makes perfect sense to me using threads, but how does that work with go blocks?
21:18	arohner	are go blocks values? (i.e. if I don't return the go block, will it still work?)
21:19	ToBeReplaced	janiczek: i don't know it well enough to give you a definitive answer. however, you could always type 1 in the repl after (C-Z, 1 Enter)
21:20	ToBeReplaced	arohner: go blocks return channels that yield the result of the body -- you could create a channel, pass it to a producer, then go or go-loop all you want
21:21	ToBeReplaced	arohner: you don't have to return a ref to the block; it won't be GC'd until its work is done
21:21	arohner	aha. there's the magic
21:22	Janiczek	ToBeReplaced: thanks, if I won't figure it out, at least this is nice :)
21:28	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: Keep coming back to this to see how many of the solutions youy understand: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html
21:28	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: it's also just a nice joke.
21:28	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ha, bookmarked that a few weeks ago
21:28	bitemyapp	well there you go. :)
21:29	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I think because of my Clojure experience, I started on the folder, and then used the more Haskell-y recursive solutions. But some of the later ones are mind-blowing to me.
21:29	ddellacosta	*foldr
21:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: folds/catamorphisms are generally the wiser way to go. Recursions are seen as relatively low-level but they yield some beautiful code in some cases.
21:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: a learning exercise is translating relatively obvious recursive implementations of tree operations to folds.
21:30	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I rather like the simplicity and elegance of the recursions, most definitely
21:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: the compiler can do more to help you out if you use things like foldr though.
21:30	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: gotcha, good to know!
21:31	bitemyapp	recursion is you basically telling GHC, "I got this."
21:32	coventry	Janiczek: Use cider-eval-expression-at-point-in-repl from https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples#usage
21:39	Janiczek	coventry: wow, that is exactly what I had in mind. thanks!
21:47	seangrove	Oh man, if only the cljs compiler were a person, I could throttle it
21:47	seangrove	So tired of seeing "java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space" right before trying to push to production
21:53	bitemyapp	seangrove: funny, I get that almost every time I use Scala.
21:53	bitemyapp	then I remember to jack up my Xmx into the stratosphere.
21:54	seangrove	Looks like it's a combination of several things, but maybe updating Java will help
21:57	seangrove	Hrm, added :jvm-opts ^:replace ["-Xms1024m" "-Xmx1024m" "-server"] to the project and it passed this time. Let's see if it break again in the next hour...
22:02	`cbp	does anyone have a cljs + node lein template around
22:03	bitemyapp	`cbp: node?
22:03	`cbp	bitemyapp: yea
22:03	bitemyapp	`cbp: node?
22:03	`cbp	wat :(
22:03	bitemyapp	son, I am disappoint.
22:03	arrdem	there are things that Javascript should not do...
22:04	`cbp	i need to make desktop app and im not about to learn swing
22:04	bitemyapp	`cbp: first you abandon me to randos on DotA2. Now you're using node for anything other than cat pictures?
22:04	bitemyapp	ohhhhhhh
22:04	bitemyapp	I has answer.
22:04	`cbp	bitemyapp: I always invite you on dota :(
22:04	`cbp	you seemed away today
22:05	bitemyapp	`cbp: oh, sorry. I've been hacking today. Still want to play?
22:05	`cbp	nope :p time to figure out cljs + node
22:05	`cbp	+ node-webkit
22:05	bitemyapp	`cbp: http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/gui-programming-with-gtk-hs.html
22:06	bitemyapp	`cbp: you could also use Fay with node-webkit >:)
22:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: doters?
22:06	arrdem	bitemyapp: lemme finish figuring out when and where my classes start tomorrow then sure.
22:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: oh exciting. What are you taking?
22:07	arrdem	bitemyapp: the only interesting things are a graduate compilers class and the honors undergrad algos class.
22:08	kanja	I've got a single item list that contains a map and a map and I want to join the two together - why do I get "ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry clojure.lang.APersistentMap.cons (APersistentMap.java:42)" when calling (conj mapList map) and not (conj map mapList)
22:11	amalloy	i don't really believe that's what happens, kanja (conj some-list anything) always works
22:11	amalloy	whereas (conj some-map any-list) always fails, in the manner you describe
22:12	bitemyapp	kanja can't conj
22:12	bitemyapp	say it out loud.
22:13	kanja	http://pastebin.com/AZUh0CUM
22:13	kanja	@alalloy ^
22:14	kanja	err http://pastebin.com/dhdcHgz6 is a little clearer
22:15	kanja	UG dur, revered the arguments to the function
22:17	bitemyapp	so, in a blazing show of total predictability, amalloy was right again?
22:18	gfredericks	clojurebot: amalloy \|was\| right again in a blazing show of total predictability
22:18	clojurebot	Roger.
22:19	amalloy	aw
22:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: well... looks like I'll be able to go work out daily before classes if I stop staying up to 2am.
22:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: decisions decisions.
22:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: I think you can fit both if we just cut it off a game earlier. Doters?
22:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: this is probably true. rebooting.
23:07	andyf	Bronsa: Clojure itself uses tags of type java.lang.Class, according to my testing. Does that imply it is a bug that tagOf() returns null when given such a tag?
23:14	Bronsa	andyf: who knows. I'd say yes.
23:17	amalloy	andyf: do you have an example of a function that uses a tag like that?
23:18	andyf	In Clojure, I think just about any tag like ^long will do, but give me a minute and I will point at a particular one.
23:19	mischanix	I asked my girlfriend if she likes Lazy Seqs. She didn't think it was funny.
23:22	amalloy	she was probably mad you pronounced seq wrong
23:24	mischanix	I don't think I'll ever be able to read 'seq' as 'seek'.
23:24	andyf	amalloy: I may have been a bit hasty. There are tags ^Object where 'Object' is a java.lang.Class while compiling Clojure itself, and test.generative uses some S-expressions as tags, but not long that I can see.
23:25	andyf	amalloy: My extra debug print doesn't give me file name or line #s, so it will take a while longer to track down where those ^Object tags are.
23:25	amalloy	andyf: that's usually a symptom of a careless macro
23:26	dbasch	I'm trying to extend a java class that has a protected constructor with no arguments via hen-class, and I get this error "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: com.google.bitcoin.core.NetworkParameters: method <init>()V not found"
23:26	dbasch	don't know why
23:26	amalloy	eg, (defmacro foo [x] (with-meta x {:tag Object}))
23:26	dbasch	gen-class that is
23:27	dbasch	any thoughts?
23:27	amalloy	andyf: looks like there's one in the definition of 'case
23:31	amalloy	that's the only one i can see, in fact
23:31	andyf	amalloy: Maybe one buried in defrecord somewhere? I'm guessing from some debug print output, haven't seen it yet.
23:32	amalloy	maybe. it's pretty hard to follow what goes on in deftype
23:34	amalloy	it looks right, though. on-interface starts as 'MyType, and the code that uses that tag is `(. ~(with-meta target {:tag on-interface}) ...)
23:36	andyf	I believe all of the cases I saw when compiling the latest Clojure occurred in defrecord, or in test.generative tags-that-are-general-forms
23:43	amalloy	wow, what on earth is test.generative doing with these :tag forms
23:45	testcloj	anybody did the question of http://www.4clojure.com/problem/156? one of it is (= (__ 0 [:a :b :c]) {:a 0 :b 0 :c 0}), I can't figure it out after thinking it for a long time
23:46	andyf	amalloy: Nicola started a thread on clojure-dev asking about that, and created a ticket to eliminate the property where such tags are visible 'outside' of test.generative
23:46	andyf	"Question about :tag" from mid-Dec
23:47	amalloy	andyf: it looks to me like tag->gen has a serious, although probably unrelated, bug as well
23:47	amalloy	the intent is that you can use arbitrary forms as tags, right, to specify your own generators?
23:48	amalloy	but...it removes all quotes from those forms before evaluating them. if i tag it like ^{:tag (repeat 10 'a)}, it mangles that into (repeat 10 a)
23:48	andyf	amalloy: I haven't learned, myself. Just passing along pointers to the conversations I've seen.
23:51	amalloy	last june the rss feeds for the clojure and clojure-dev mailing lists stopped working in my email client, so i haven't really read anything since then. on the whole that's worked out fairly well for me, but it does mean i haven't seen that conversation :P
23:52	andyf	direct link to the thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/hRZFuaiB_50