#clojure – 2013-12-28

2013-12-28

00:25	yedi_	what does the `@` represent in `@(d/transact conn schema-tx)`
00:26	justin_smith	@ is a reader macro for deref
00:27	justin_smith	(macroexpand-1 '@thing)
00:27	justin_smith	,(macroexpand-1 '@thing)
00:27	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref thing)
00:27	amalloy	justin_smith: you don't need to macroexpand reader macros
00:27	amalloy	,'@thing
00:27	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref thing)
00:27	justin_smith	amalloy: nice, thanks
00:28	amalloy	since of course it's the reader expanding it
00:28	justin_smith	d'oh, I could have figured that out, of course
00:30	Arafangion	Out of curiosity, what's the overheads of using clojure on android?
00:30	justin_smith	the sanity drain of dealing with a weird jvm
00:31	Arafangion	Is it turely that weird?
00:31	Arafangion	*truely
00:31	justin_smith	in all seriousness, like any other clojure use case, depends on what you need it to do and your coding style
00:31	Arafangion	I want to write a tiny application, the language is probably irrelevant, in all seriousness.
00:32	Arafangion	So if the overheads for a minimal clojure support library is say, 50KB, then I'd consider it very minimal.
00:32	justin_smith	I have yet to hear any success story about clojure on android, but ymmv and it could be I only heard the whiners
00:32	Arafangion	The whiners can whine... If nothing else, clojure apparently works on javascript.
00:33	justin_smith	space overhead should be identical, because android is not a separate build target
00:33	Arafangion	Yeah, just wondering what that space overhead is.
00:33	justin_smith	though you could mitigate it with gen-class and compiling in such a way as not to include sources (which is not the default)
00:33	Arafangion	Hmm.
00:34	justin_smith	I mean identical to the normal overhead with a desktop jvm
00:34	justin_smith	clojure is not lightweight in ram usage by any means
00:34	Arafangion	RAM is a separate concern.
00:34	justin_smith	add to that persistance / immutibility and their added space usage
00:34	justin_smith	OK
00:34	Arafangion	I mean, RAM is a concern, but it's separate.
00:34	justin_smith	I meant "space" above, including ram and deployed size
00:35	Arafangion	I'm mostly concerned with "download size".
00:35	justin_smith	right - in that case you may actually want to avoid gen-class and only ship sources for libs. But clojure still can't do tree shaking, so it will be a large deploy.
00:36	Arafangion	No tree shaking, curious. (Seems to be a new term for "stripping"?).
00:36	justin_smith	kind of
00:36	justin_smith	since clojure has eval in it, and no way to explicitly say you won't use it
00:36	justin_smith	nothing can be ruled out as runtime accessible
00:37	Arafangion	So, the overhead of my application, naively, would be the size of the clojure jar itself.
00:37	justin_smith	not in an automated way at least
00:37	justin_smith	plus libs you use
00:37	justin_smith	yeah
00:37	Arafangion	Naturally.
00:37	Arafangion	Hmm, so between ~900K and 3.5M. Tiny by modern standards.
00:37	Arafangion	But not tiny by android standards.
00:38	justin_smith	and my app deploys are typically significantly larger than that. But I am not shipping something comparable to an android app at all
00:38	Arafangion	Indeed. Still, 900K is probably tolerable.
00:38	justin_smith	Arafangion: it almost seems to imply a shared clojure base app that could be used for other apps would be called for
00:39	Arafangion	That's very difficult in practice.
00:39	justin_smith	once you have clojure, the individual app could be very small
00:39	justin_smith	maybe an app that just ships clojure plus the code to download and bootstrap your 10k of code
00:39	Arafangion	That shared clojure app would have to be 'frozen'.
00:39	Arafangion	(my term)
00:39	Arafangion	Hmm, actually that is an idea, depending on how dynamic dalvik is.
00:40	Arafangion	But avoiding the need to bootstrap and do additional downloads is something I'd like.
00:40	justin_smith	if alembic can be made to run on dalvik, you could take that and run with it
00:40	Arafangion	http://www.alembic.io/ <-- That?
00:40	justin_smith	and, actually, if you could bundle your app as source, you wouldn't need to hack class path, you could just use load
00:40	justin_smith	though that's pretty ghetto
00:41	Arafangion	Yeah, I'd rather compile.
00:41	justin_smith	load compiles
00:41	justin_smith	there is no non-compiled jvm clojure mode
00:41	Arafangion	I'm considering either some scheme dialect, or javascript, for my app. (With is a trivial library/database app, but it's a nice example to try ideas in)
00:41	justin_smith	https://github.com/pallet/alembic <- this
00:42	Arafangion	Thanks
00:42	justin_smith	I love clojure, but honestly it will be easier to get a small bundled deploy size with a scheme or javascript
00:43	Arafangion	I'm seriously considering doing most things in just javascript - I should know the langauge anyway (I can hack it as it is, but I don't truely know it).
00:43	Arafangion	Although there's a number of hates I have with it.
00:44	justin_smith	you could use a clojurescript dev environment and target a js that runs on android
00:44	Arafangion	js easily runs on android.
00:45	Arafangion	But even that would still entail some overhead... But there are tools available to strip that down.
00:46	justin_smith	jvm clojure has no tree shaking, but clojurescript may (via goog)
00:47	ryanf	is there a commonly used way to make stuff (e.g. tests) start faster using something like nailgun?
00:47	justin_smith	ryanf: you can run tests in a repl
00:47	ryanf	there's an ancient lein-nailgun plugin but I think it's incompatible with current leiningen and it doesn't look like anyone ever used it
00:47	ryanf	yeah, I know, I'm using cljs though and it's really rickety
00:47	justin_smith	reload the code being tested (and the test if needed, and (test/run-test <optional ns arg>)
00:47	ryanf	I haven't had much luck finding a sane workflow for running tests in a repl and loading updated code
00:48	technomancy	if you don't run your tests in the repl (which you should but whatever) there's always grenchman
00:48	ryanf	oh, plus I'm using the node cljs repl, because I'm targeting node
00:48	justin_smith	(do (require my.ns :reload) (test/run-tests))
00:48	ryanf	technomancy: thanks for the pointer
00:48	justin_smith	yeah, I can't help with the cljs testing
00:48	ryanf	justin_smith: the cljs repl doesn't even support require :(
00:49	Arafangion	ryanf: If there is no test framework, I highly suggest that when you decide to roll your own, you look around for some existing test frameworks other platforms have, and reproduce the best one.
00:49	Arafangion	ryanf: As there are some fantastic, but non-obvious solutions.
00:49	ryanf	oh, I'm not doing that. I'm using this https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test
00:49	ryanf	I got it working pretty well if I don't mind running "lein cljsbuild test" every time, but I unfortunately do mind that
00:50	ryanf	I just spent a while trying to get interactive test running working with https://github.com/bodil/cljs-noderepl, but haven't found a sane way to reload test code in that repl yet
00:50	ryanf	but one might exist that I just haven't figured out yet
00:50	justin_smith	is there really no require in the cljs repl?
00:51	ryanf	as far as I can tell, there isn't
00:52	ryanf	also looking at that node repl the wrong way makes it raise an unrecoverable exception, which requires restarting the whole thing, so that's fun :)
01:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: another soul claimed!
01:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: up fer doters?
01:06	nmws	whats the easiest way to wrap a java class into clojure? for e.g. a Java class has 10 methods, and I want to create 10 clojure functions that correspond to those methods
01:25	TEttinger	nmws: are you translating in some way? like ArrayLists <-> Vectors?
01:25	TEttinger	otherwise, you can just use the java class
01:26	TEttinger	,(.nextDouble (java.util.Random.))
01:26	clojurebot	0.290021386697762
01:34	sritchie	magnars: around?
01:34	sritchie	had a Q about optimus
01:38	TEttinger	sritchie, the expensive keyboards?
01:38	sritchie	haha, no, his front end optimization lib
01:41	magnars	sritchie: hi mate! I'm with my daughter right now. If you open an issue on GitHub, I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
01:41	sritchie	okay, for sure
01:45	yedi_	so im trying to use the console with datomic free: bin/console -p 8080 rhymer datomic:mem://rhymer
01:46	yedi_	i get this error: Removing storage with unsupported protocol: rhymer = datomic:mem://rhymer
01:46	yedi_	this is my application code so far: https://github.com/yedi/rhyme-finder/blob/master/src/clj/rhyme_finder/app/db.clj
01:46	yedi_	am i missing something?
01:58	TEttinger	ok, I can't remember how to reload a ns in lein repl
01:59	TEttinger	and since I can't remember the words, I don't know what to search for...
02:09	seancorf`	do you mean (require 'some.namespace :reload) ?
02:10	seancorf`	or something more specific?
02:28	magnars	yedi_: your code looks right. My guess is that console doesn't work with in-memory datomic from another process?
02:28	TEttinger	seancorfield, yeah that's it
02:28	sritchie	magnars: https://github.com/magnars/optimus/issues/8
02:28	sritchie	boom
02:28	magnars	sritchie: I'll take a look! :)
02:28	yedi_	magnars: yea, that's what i realized
02:28	yedi_	ty tho
02:28	sritchie	maybe just a misunderstanding of mine, but css urls don't seem to be getting rewritten with the hash-based prefix
02:28	sritchie	magnars: or any base url
02:28	sritchie	magnars: thanks!
02:43	TEttinger	hm, how do I tell whether a file by a given name exists or not?
02:44	arrdem	if you have a URI for the file then I think you can stat it with the File api...
02:44	arrdem	that's probably the best way.
02:44	TEttinger	it's local, I'll take a look
02:46	TEttinger	yep, .exists
02:51	yedi	whats the complement to `read-string`? (tryna convert clojure data/edn to a string)
02:51	magnars	str
02:52	magnars	sritchie: I answered your issue with a question
02:52	yedi	wow
02:52	yedi	derp
02:52	sritchie	magnars: maybe I have them in the wrong order
02:53	magnars	sritchie: order shouldn't matter - at least I've been trying hard to avoid that pitfall.
02:54	sritchie	responded
02:54	sritchie	with the optimizations - it's working great for the actual css file,
02:54	sritchie	magnars: I added some printlns to replace-css-urls,
02:54	sritchie	and (replacement-fn file url) returned the url, unchanged
02:55	sritchie	magnars: the tests don't seem to show a cache-busting rewrite? Just rewriting of relative URLs
02:55	magnars	sritchie: I think you must be looking at the load-css-asset code, because the cache-busting is in add-cache-busted-expires-headers
02:56	magnars	sritchie: https://github.com/magnars/optimus/blob/master/test/optimus/optimizations/add_cache_busted_expires_headers_test.clj#L50-L72
02:59	sritchie	let's see...
03:00	sritchie	magnars: okay, found the bug
03:00	magnars	excellent
03:00	sritchie	magnars: it seems that if I have a resource included twice -
03:00	sritchie	the first time, referenced by the css, then again as the image by itself
03:00	sritchie	(concat (css-bundle) (image-assets))
03:01	sritchie	if there's a duplicate, the css rewriting stops working
03:01	magnars	Doh. Good detective work. If you update the issue, I'll take reproduce and fix that this evening.
03:02	sritchie	okay, great
03:02	sritchie	thanks, awesome
03:02	magnars	In the meantime, removing the images referenced in CSS from (image-assets) should work around the bug.
03:02	sritchie	yeah, I'll move them over to the CSS folder for now
03:02	sritchie	since I just slurp up all images
03:02	sritchie	loving the lib
03:02	magnars	Glad to hear that :-)
03:05	TEttinger	yedi, pr-str is the real equivalent, since str doesn't always produce re-readable output (you can make str print anything by changing a type's .toString method)
03:05	TEttinger	pr-str is more equivalent, but still not perfect
03:05	TEttinger	I did use it to make save files, and clojure worked on the first try
03:05	TEttinger	(just now)
03:13	sritchie	magnars: strange… even if I move those images out, if I include that image bundle as well, the rewrite fails
03:13	TEttinger	yedi, if you want to stringify arrays, it's more tricky, but I got it working with these lines https://github.com/tommyettinger/dungeon-kingpin/blob/master/src/dk/DKGame.clj#L21-L23 for char, bool, and double arrays
03:13	sritchie	no matter the location, including the following line kills the rewrite: (assets/load-assets "public" [#"/img/.+\.(png\|jpg\|gif\|ico)$"])
03:14	sritchie	including this line, though, has no effect: (assets/load-assets "public" [#"/cljs/.+\.js$"])
03:14	TEttinger	try .+?
03:15	TEttinger	hm
03:15	TEttinger	,(clojure.string/replace "/img/hooray.gif" #"/img/.+\.(png\|jpg\|gif\|ico)$" "yay")
03:15	clojurebot	"yay"
03:15	TEttinger	so that regexp will match
03:16	sritchie	ah, false alarm
03:16	sritchie	I think I forgot a reload on the latest iter
03:16	TEttinger	phew
03:17	yedi	TEttinger: ahh thanks, yea (str) was just printing out "LazySeq blah blah blah" but pr-str did the trick
03:18	TEttinger	that print-dup thing I linked at my github -- it needs a binding to work, but you don't need to set print-dup usually for clojure data
03:18	TEttinger	edn should be pr-str and read-string capable
03:19	yedi	TEttinger: hows that game goin a long btw
03:20	TEttinger	great, I am very pleased that savefiles work on the first try
03:20	TEttinger	using that method I mentioned, pr-str and slurp
03:29	yedi	so im using emacs + nrepl. my handler.clj keeps failing to load (C-c C-l) because of this error: java.lang.Exception: namespace 'rhyme-finder.core' not found
03:29	yedi	when i try to load rhymefinder's core.clj, it says its own ns can't be found
03:30	yedi	i then (in-ns 'rhyme-finder.core) i try reloading, and it loads fine
03:30	yedi	then reloadin handler.clj also works
03:30	yedi	does anyone know why handler.clj would fail to load successfully at first?
03:31	yedi	i also get this error when starting the repl: #<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk, compiling:(rhyme_finder/core.clj:23:5)>
03:31	yedi	(but the repl still starts)
03:31	TEttinger	oh, it could be the - in the ns
03:31	TEttinger	that causes problems sometimes
03:32	TEttinger	see how it says compiling:(rhyme_finder/core.clj:23:5)
03:32	TEttinger	with an _
03:33	yedi	i thought that was how it was supposed to work? the - in the namespace gets converted to _ when lookin up the file
03:33	TEttinger	but if you have rhyme_finder and rhyme-finder as ns paths...
03:34	TEttinger	it may be expecting to be found as rhyme_finder even though your ns calls it rhyme-finder
03:34	TEttinger	I think it's kinda not a recommended practice?
03:34	TEttinger	but I could be wrong
03:35	yedi	yea, the folder name is called rhyme_finder though, so it should be able to find that path
03:35	TEttinger	right, nvm http://stackoverflow.com/a/8923092
03:46	yedi	here are the relevant files: https://gist.github.com/yedi/8157428
03:47	logic_prog	where can I read about what characeters are valid function name ?
03:47	logic_prog	I want to do apl style programming, so I can do shit like ($! /% (!! 20))
03:47	logic_prog	and it'll get me the first 20 prime numbers
03:47	yedi	the compiler exception before the repl starts seems to complain about this line: https://gist.github.com/yedi/8157428#file-rhyme_finder-slash-core-clj-L23
03:55	TEttinger	logic_prog, http://www.hypirion.com/musings/swearjure ?
03:56	TEttinger	logic_prog, so in that, !! is iota in APL?
03:56	logic_prog	TEttinger: the above is not valid apl code
03:56	logic_prog	I just made it up
03:56	TEttinger	ok
03:56	logic_prog	not like anyone can tell :-)
03:56	logic_prog	sweajure looks ifasicnating
03:56	TEttinger	it uses no numbers!
03:56	logic_prog	especially given they made this professional pdf to present it
03:56	TEttinger	hyPiRion is here
03:56	TEttinger	he's a pro
03:57	TEttinger	but yeah, the APL chars are valid names
03:57	logic_prog	hyPiRion: we meet again
03:58	logic_prog	i'm thinking of using unicode characters
03:58	logic_prog	(apply concat ...) is too long
03:58	logic_prog	I want this to look like (A B ...)
03:58	logic_prog	where A, B are unicode cahracters
03:58	clojurebot	Pardon?
03:58	yedi	ughhh... TEttinger i figured it out: https://gist.github.com/yedi/8157428/revisions
03:59	yedi	for some reason that fixes it
03:59	TEttinger	heh
03:59	TEttinger	http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2300.pdf
04:04	logic_prog	à is now apply
04:05	TEttinger	["?" "⌈" "⌊" "⍴" "∼" "∣" "⍳" "⋆" "−" "+" "×" "÷" "," "⌹" "○" "⍟" "⌽" "⊖" "⍋" "⍒" "⍎" "⍕" "⍉" "!" "+" "−" "×" "÷" "⋆" "○" "?" "∈" "⌈" "⌊" "⍴" "↑" "↓" "⊥" "⊤" "∣" "," "\" "/" "⍳" "⌹" "⌽" "⊖" "⍟" "⍕" "⍉" "!" "<" "≤" "=" "≥" ">" "≠" "∨" "∧" "⍱" "⍲"]
04:06	TEttinger	those are the chars used in APL
04:06	TEttinger	IBM APL anyway
04:06	Arafangion	I seem to have missed the era of special-purpose keyboards.
04:08	logic_prog	TEttinger: someday, people will look back, and say, it was on Dec 28, 2013 that clojure went back to 1970s technology
04:08	TEttinger	["?" "⌈" "⌊" "⍴" "∼" "∣" "⍳" "⋆" "−" "+" "×" "÷" "," "⌹" "○" "⍟" "⌽" "⊖" "⍋" "⍒" "⍎" "⍕" "⍉" "!" "+" "−" "×" "÷" "⋆" "○" "?" "∈" "⌈" "⌊" "⍴" "↑" "↓" "⊥" "⊤" "∣" "," "\" "/" "⍳" "⌹" "⌽" "⊖" "⍟" "⍕" "⍉" "!" "<" "≤" "=" "≥" ">" "≠" "∨" "∧" "⍱" "⍲" "/" "⌿" "\" "⍀" "." "∘"] ; the real list
04:09	TEttinger	but APL is very oriented towards arrays, there's no seq abstraction
04:10	TEttinger	I kinda think the best part of APL is not that everything is so short, but that everything can be expressed ever more cleverly
04:11	TEttinger	APL has tons of stuff (operators) that changes the behavior of other functions or operators
04:12	TEttinger	J calls them adverbs
04:13	logic_prog	yeah
04:13	logic_prog	and also the notion that all functions are either 1 arg of 2 args
04:13	logic_prog	which removes the need for ()'s
04:13	logic_prog	more important question:
04:13	logic_prog	on http://symbolcodes.tlt.psu.edu/bylanguage/mathchart.html#fractions ... what is a good representation of "apply" and "reduce" and "map"
04:15	TEttinger	it has to be a fraction?
04:16	logic_prog	no no
04:16	logic_prog	any symbol
04:17	logic_prog	i was just so desperate I was looking throuhg all of them, even fractions
04:17	logic_prog	right now, (apply concat (map :blah lst))
04:17	logic_prog	reduces to ($a $c ($m :blah lst))
04:17	TEttinger	apply is one to many, map is many to many, reduce is many to one
04:17	logic_prog	??
04:17	lazybot	logic_prog: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
04:17	TEttinger	find some symbols for those
04:19	TEttinger	≾ apply
04:22	TEttinger	≻ reduce ≈ map ≊ mapv
04:23	progo	those abbreviations make it easy to go over 80 characters per line :S
04:24	TEttinger	yeah, the unicode thing
04:24	TEttinger	but clojure has no such restriction
04:26	Arafangion	TEttinger: Why is unicode so desirable?
04:27	TEttinger	it isn't, just wondering how to do APL stuff for clojure
04:27	TEttinger	of course the words are better
04:27	Arafangion	TEttinger: (Your IDE could easily convert words to symbols at the UI level, similar to how emacs can do http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyLambda )
04:30	ddima	logic_prog: do you want to make sure nobody else can understand the code? ;)
04:32	logic_prog	ddima: I work alone
04:34	logic_prog	those who say perl is unreadable has not seem bad clojure :-)
04:35	ddima	would be nice if there was a site "badclojure" or something with examples ;)
04:37	Arafangion	Bad code can be written in any language. :)
04:38	ryanf	how do people feel about speclj?
04:43	nones	how big overhead give agents?
04:43	nones	can I make 10.000 agents?
04:44	logic_prog	agents, afaik, are very chepa
04:47	TEttinger	bitemyapp: http://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/1abp48/question_i_swear_i_am_not_gonna_do_this_but_if/c8w18bw now I'm curious
04:47	logic_prog	in emacs, what is the most dumbass way to have a certain keyword colored differetly?
04:47	logic_prog	for example, I want the word "foo" to be red always
05:03	ddellacosta	ryanf: regarding how I feel about speclj, Stuart Halloway explains it well here: http://vimeo.com/77199361
05:23	yedi	someone should write "the seasoned reasoned schemer"
05:24	yedi	oh they were written by the same dude... makes more sense now
05:36	TEttinger	the seasoned roasted schemer
05:38	arcatan	are there any other -easoned words?
05:38	TEttinger	treasoned
05:51	dyreshark	weasoned http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weason
06:59	nones	is there ways to use in struct own property?
06:59	nones	eg.: (struct smth :arr [7 8 9] :length ???)
07:00	roland_	hi in datomic, could you use a rule within another rule?
07:01	jcromartie	seriously, screw protocols and records for use as "objects"
07:01	jcromartie	if your records are long lived
07:01	jcromartie	recompiling means recreating records before you see new behavior
07:01	jcromartie	bleh
07:02	jcromartie	nones: what are you trying to achieve
07:02	jcromartie	AFAIK structmaps are all but dead
07:02	nones	I have this struct:
07:03	nones	(defstruct unit :points :width :height)
07:03	nones	I init unit:
07:05	nones	(struct unit :points (case type
07:05	nones	:medic [[0 1 0]
07:05	nones	[1 1 1]
07:05	nones	[0 1 0]
07:05	nones	[1 1 1]]
07:05	nones	:spy [[1]])
07:05	nones	:width
07:05	nones	:height
07:05	nones	)
07:05	jcromartie	can width and height be a function of the points
07:05	jcromartie	?
07:05	jcromartie	or are they not necessarily related?
07:05	jcromartie	and why are you using a defstruct instead of just a map
07:06	babilen	(or record)
07:06	nones	width and height are constants
07:07	jcromartie	constants?
07:07	nones	they calculated only in init
07:11	jcromartie	OK so anyway, what's your question? I am not sure
07:11	jcromartie	nones: it looks like you're making a game?
07:12	nones	jcromartie: yes, you right
07:12	jcromartie	cool! always happy to see game dev in Clojure
07:13	jcromartie	now, how well it works is yet to be determined :)
07:14	nones	I want set width and height depending on points 2d array
07:19	nones	ok, I decided to go other way
07:21	jcromartie	nones: are you sure you need to cache those values?
07:21	jcromartie	rather than use a function?
07:21	jcromartie	is this a real-time game
07:22	jcromartie	like, high framerate? with lots of lookups of the height/width of these things?
07:22	jcromartie	there are lots of ways you could optimize it: if there are just a few possible point vectors, then you could just memoize the height and width functions
07:23	jcromartie	(def height (memoize (fn [points] (count points))))
08:20	augustl	dnolen: hey :) Any idea how well Om performs in IE9? Is mori reasonably fast? Is it still fast with setTimeout 16 instead of requestAnimationFrame?
08:54	xsyn	The pedestal docs and the pedestal tutorial look very different from each other
08:57	jcromartie	how do you name your reference types?
08:58	jcromartie	like, an atom shouldn't be called "state"
08:58	jcromartie	but that's the temptation
09:03	jcromartie	or naming futures that represent simple values
09:40	pepijndevos	Would it be possible to "rebase" a hash trie?
09:53	jcromartie	I wish Emacs clojure-mode had better logic for string fill, like it does for comments
09:54	jcromartie	comments work flawlessly, but strings end up applying fill to the surrounding code
09:54	jcromartie	especially awkward with doc strings
09:54	roland_	jcromartie: clojure-fill-docstring
09:55	jcromartie	damn
09:55	jcromartie	thanks!
09:56	jcromartie	I guess I could rebind that to M-q
09:56	roland_	np :-) i remember when i was desperately looking for it
09:56	jcromartie	I dont see the need for standard fill mode anywhere in Clojure code
09:56	roland_	i had at one time stuck to using comments intead of docstrings
09:56	jcromartie	but then what about comments… huh
09:57	nonrecursive	roland_: thank you! that's driven me nuts
10:04	pepijndevos	How does Clojures maps compare to b-trees with 32 leave nodes?
10:05	peterdon`	>>>/quit
10:10	peterdon`	xk
10:16	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: way faster on average
10:16	hyPiRion	but it doesn't really make sense to compare maps to vector-like structures
10:17	pepijndevos	hyPiRion, you can turn any vector into a map by hashing the key and using as an index :)
10:18	xsyn	ugh pedestal confuses me
10:18	pepijndevos	But ok, a clojure vecctor pretty much uses the same underlying structure as a map, lot lets use that.
10:19	pepijndevos	I know that CouchDB uses an append-only B+ tree with structural sharing for storage
10:19	pepijndevos	That sounds an awefull lot like clojure vectors. So why a B tree if the clojure thing is faster?
10:20	pepijndevos	Probably something with disk seek time?
10:23	pepijndevos	hyPiRion, ?
10:25	gfredericks	(merge #{} #{}) ;; any guesses what this returns?
10:26	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: hmm, that's interesting. I would guess the B+-tree is inferior speed wise, but there may be some serialisation issues
10:26	hyPiRion	disk seek time shouldn't be a concern
10:26	hyPiRion	,(merge #{} #{}) ;; Gogo clojurebot
10:26	clojurebot	#{#{}}
10:27	gfredericks	yaaay dynamic types amirite
10:27	pepijndevos	wat
10:27	hyPiRion	gfredericks: haha, it's using the ##(conj {:foo :b} {:bar :a}) trick
10:27	lazybot	⇒ {:bar :a, :foo :b}
10:27	gfredericks	of course what I wanted was either into or clojure.set/union
10:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yeah I know I hate that trick
10:27	pepijndevos	waat
10:28	hyPiRion	One of the few things stranger than when-first
10:28	pepijndevos	waaat
10:28	pepijndevos	I though Clojure made sense...
10:29	gfredericks	conj has this weird inexplicable edge case
10:29	gfredericks	,(conj {1 2 3 4} {5 6 7 8})
10:29	clojurebot	{7 8, 5 6, 1 2, 3 4}
10:30	gfredericks	I have never heard an argument that that^ shouldn't throw an exception
10:30	gfredericks	but it seems to have been at least mildly intentional
10:30	hyPiRion	that's like, stranger than edge cases from IEEE-754
10:30	pepijndevos	$source conj
10:30	gfredericks	I actually haven't heard any comment on it at all from anybody on the core team even
10:30	lazybot	conj is http://is.gd/U6MjEm
10:30	gfredericks	pepijndevos: it's probably buried inside the cons method on APersistentMap
10:31	pepijndevos	I thought so...
10:31	gfredericks	presumably it is too late to change now
10:31	hyPiRion	gfredericks: we can riot on the next conj
10:31	pepijndevos	clojure.lang.RT always
10:31	gfredericks	I wonder if they are opposed to changes like that for 2.0
10:32	pepijndevos	So the question is what cons for a map does
10:33	pepijndevos	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentMap.java#L24
10:33	gfredericks	pepijndevos: cons for any collection usually adds an "item" to that collection; for maps it only makes sense that you should be able to add a mapentry
10:33	pepijndevos	yes, but a map is a mapentry?
10:33	gfredericks	a quasi-map-entry at least
10:33	gfredericks	no
10:33	gfredericks	that's the edge case
10:33	gfredericks	cons on maps also accepts a map
10:34	gfredericks	and merges them
10:34	pepijndevos	...
10:34	pepijndevos	Ok, so what about the other 2?
10:34	gfredericks	the other 2?
10:34	pepijndevos	#source merge
10:34	pepijndevos	$source merge
10:35	lazybot	merge is http://is.gd/8qKYI3
10:35	pepijndevos	yea, merging 2 sets and when-first
10:35	pepijndevos	also points back to cons
10:36	gfredericks	merge is because of cons
10:36	pepijndevos	yea, so it's just ##(.cons #{} #{})
10:36	lazybot	⇒ #{#{}}
10:41	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: Yeah, the B+-tree in CouchDB uses removal, in which case a persistent vector is slower
10:41	hyPiRion	It just does so internally
10:45	pepijndevos	hyPiRion, removal?
10:46	pepijndevos	Like, removing elements is slower from a vector?
10:47	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: yes, when they're in the middle of the vector
10:47	pepijndevos	Why?
10:47	clojurebot	Why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
10:48	hyPiRion	because a B+-tree nodes can be half the maximum size, whereas vectors must be the exact size
10:49	pepijndevos	oh. hmm, thinking about that...
10:50	pepijndevos	yes, that sounds right. But that doesn't apply to hash maps. And in dtabases and filesystems you're using a b-tree to look up keys, right?
10:51	Vlad4Justice	pepijndevos, hai pop.
10:51	Vlad4Justice	Vind jij Pim Fortuyn ook de grootste Nederlander?
10:51	pepijndevos	Vlad4Justice, offtopic
10:52	Vlad4Justice	pepijndevos, mag hier.
10:52	Vlad4Justice	Lenient kanaal, ik zit hier al 5 jaar en ben nog nooit geband, kan je nagaan.
10:52	Vlad4Justice	En ik maak grappen over de holocaust
10:52	Vlad4Justice	Op #haskell was ik er meteen uitgeknald na de eerste holocaust grap
10:52	pepijndevos	at least talk english so others can enjoy the jokes
10:52	Vlad4Justice	It is true
10:52	Vlad4Justice	everyone should be privy of holocaust humour
10:53	Vlad4Justice	All those jews would've surely died for nought if not everyone could enjoy the finest holocaust jokes.
10:54	pepijndevos	hyPiRion, or I'm misunderstanding something about how databases and filesystems work.
10:55	pepijndevos	I seem to remember maps use some clever bit twidling to have sparse child references packed together.
10:55	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: true, doesn't apply to maps. No idea what CouchDB does, but it has an element removal function.
10:56	pepijndevos	Maybe I should ask in #couchdb
10:57	hyPiRion	hmm, yeah, sounds like an idea
10:58	pepijndevos	What is the name of the thing that vector uses?
10:59	hyPiRion	structural sharing? path copying?
11:01	pepijndevos	map uses HAMT, and wikipedia says "A HAMT is an array mapped trie where the keys are first hashed [...]"
11:03	pepijndevos	hyPiRion, anyway, thanks for thinking along :)
11:04	hyPiRion	np
11:18	jcromartie	woah, I thought records were equal when their fields were equal?
11:19	jcromartie	is this more AOT bullshit or something?
11:19	hyPiRion	maybe, or that the fields aren't equal
11:20	jcromartie	they absolutely are
11:20	jcromartie	it's just when I print and read the record
11:21	jcromartie	look at this weirdness https://gist.github.com/anonymous/57fbb6f1637b30a2075d
11:21	jcromartie	e and e' are def'ed earlier as a record and (read-string (pr-str e)) respectively
11:22	jcromartie	the class even appears to be the same
11:22	jcromartie	but it's not
11:22	jcromartie	same name? different class?
11:22	jcromartie	AOT
11:24	jcromartie	I am really frustrated with the way records and protocols have completely screwed me over in the REPL
11:26	jcromartie	yup
11:26	jcromartie	so get this
11:27	jcromartie	since I have a -main, I have to AOT that namespace, which in turn AOTs the namespace that has a record type that is used to serialize events in the system
11:27	jcromartie	if I recompile my model which contains that defrecord, then the whole thing breaks when I do a certain sanity check for the serializability of events
11:27	jcromartie	yay
11:33	roland_	jcromartie: why is (class e) not equal (class e')
11:34	jcromartie	roland_: that's awfully confusing isn't it?
11:34	jcromartie	they are not the same class
11:34	jcromartie	they have the same name
11:35	jcromartie	but I assume one is the AOT class and one is recompiled
11:35	roland_	same fqn yea
11:35	roland_	how is that possible if they are loaded with the same classloader?
11:35	jcromartie	,(instance? java.io.Serializable (fn []))
11:35	clojurebot	true
11:35	jcromartie	lies
11:35	jcromartie	LIES
11:36	technomancy	yeah, sothis is why I don't use records
11:37	hyPiRion	jcromartie: whoa, nice find
11:38	jcromartie	technomancy: I'm starting to believe you
11:38	jcromartie	:)
11:39	gfredericks	clojurebot: so this is why I don't use records
11:39	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
11:39	jcromartie	I know records were designed for where type-based-dispatch polymorphism is the only way to make it fast
11:40	gfredericks	records are what happened when deftype and APersistentMap had a baby
11:41	jcromartie	my wife is hunting our 3 year old with a nerf gun… it's disturbing
11:47	jcromartie	I'm also beginning to like the sound of a single global database connection
11:55	sritchie	any enlive gurus around?
11:59	zerokarmaleft	can friend wrap a set of routes with authentication?
12:00	zerokarmaleft	i.e. (friend/authenticated some-big-defroutes)
12:00	roland_	more like (friend/authenticate routes config)
12:01	zerokarmaleft	roland_: isn't that just to enable the middleware?
12:01	roland_	oh yea
12:02	roland_	but you can enable the middleware on a selection of routes
12:03	roland_	and the for each handler, you have friend/authenticated ...
12:03	zerokarmaleft	yea, that's what I'm doing currently, I was just seeing if I could DRY out the friend/authenticated wrapping of the body of each handler
12:04	roland_	oh ok. I see, i just use a macro :-)
12:06	hyPiRion	$karma zerokarmaleft
12:06	lazybot	zerokarmaleft has karma 1.
12:07	hyPiRion	the nickname lies
12:07	dsrx	$karma dsrx
12:07	lazybot	dsrx has karma 0.
12:08	zerokarmaleft	hyPiRion: :(
12:52	deadghost	I just realized code golf is programming sudoku
12:54	dnolen	augustl: I'd imagine Om works fine on anything that React works fine on
12:54	dnolen	augustl: as far as persistent data structure perf, I can't imagine it being a problem on IE9 in many cases
13:01	Raynes	Guys. I might switch back to Emacs.
13:02	Raynes	Just thought you all should know.
13:02	yedi	Raynes: what r u using
13:02	Raynes	I've been using Vim for quite a while.
13:02	Raynes	I tend to switch between editors a lot.
13:03	Raynes	The motivation for switching back to Emacs is mostly because it is annoying to use Vim for everything but Haskell.
13:03	Raynes	And Vim is horrific for Haskell.
13:06	deadghost	I've been using evil and it's been great
13:08	Raynes	deadghost: Yeah, I'm a fan. I used Emacs with evil mode for a long time.
13:09	deadghost	any reason for using vim as opposed to emacs + evil?
13:13	Raynes	deadghost: At the time it was just because I was bored with staring at Emacs all day and wanted to switch things up a bit.
13:15	pdk	what's wrong with vim's haskell support
13:16	Raynes	pdk: Horrible indentation, primarily.
13:16	pdk	are haskell's indentation rules that complicated
13:16	pdk	i mean with lisp it's already more complex than say indenting c/c++
13:18	Raynes	Lisp's indentation 'rules' are aesthetic. Haskell has significant whitespace and frequently 15 different ways to indent the same expression, some of which could make it mean different things.
13:18	deadghost	oh god what
13:18	augustl	dnolen: cool, thanks
13:18	deadghost	I didn't know that
13:19	Raynes	Vim just doesn't handle this sort of thing well, but someone could certainly write a better plugin. They just don't because Emacs is already good at it.
13:20	Raynes	deadghost: emacs makes it easier by giving letting you toggle through possible indentations with tab.
13:21	miltondsilva	hi, I'm using emacs and I cant get 2 space indent working for all sexps in clojure-mode. I tried using (setq clojure-defun-style-default-indent t) but when I type (some-very-long-function-name arg1... it doesnt get indented as showned in the wiki (https://github.com/clojure-emacs/clojure-mode)under "whereas turning on the "always 2 spaces" option yields this:". Any ideias on how to solve this?
13:23	miltondsilva	also, in the scracth buffer indentation is also not "pretty printed" (2 space always) and the major mode is different lisp instead of clojure
13:24	miltondsilva	with defun it works okay but other sexps it aligns with the first char of the first argument
13:25	dsrx	the scratch buffer, afaik, is in lisp mode (emacs lisp) by default
13:26	dsrx	"defun" is an emacs lisp form, not a clojure one
13:29	miltondsilva	yes. I know. My problem is with the clojure indentation but I'm saying that in other lisp modes it also doesnt work as I expected.
13:30	miltondsilva	that could provide usefull information for people that tried to help me ;)
13:33	roland_	anyone able to dangerouslySetInnerHTML with om?
13:33	deadghost	hmmm ehhhhhhh can I use a function literal with no function in it?
13:33	deadghost	for example #(%2) instead of #(do %2)
13:34	arrdem	,(#(%3) 0 1 2)
13:34	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
13:35	arrdem	deadghost: you should really be using first/second rather than trying to be cute like that..
13:35	deadghost	arrdem, I'm playing code golf on 4clojure
13:35	deadghost	and it's telling me to be cute by not using last
13:36	jonasen	Bronsa: why do you macroexpand here? https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer.clj#L190
13:36	deadghost	so I'm using reduce #(do %2) instead
13:36	deadghost	and trying to shorten it
13:36	arrdem	hum... I don't think of anything.
13:36	yedi	man, datalog / logic programming is so sexy
13:42	roland_	oh so #js tag isnt recursivve
13:43	scottj	roland_: yeah, was a bit bummed by that
13:43	roland_	scottj: interesting
13:43	scottj	(I'm guessing there's a good reason though)
13:44	roland_	yes, it would otherwise be impossible to embed clojure objects in a js object
13:44	scottj	well, if that were less common couldn't you use metadata to escape the #js?
13:44	Bronsa	jonasen: tools.analyzer.jvm's macroexpand-1 macroexpands Integer/MAX_VALUE in (.- Integer MAX_VALUE) for example, so that we only need to handle the host "." form and not the foo/bar form
13:45	roland_	scottj:how will that work?
13:45	scottj	roland_: no idea ;)
13:46	roland_	me thinking that that would require you to include deep paths in the metadata for escaping, which can easily become painful :)
13:47	yedi	i have this datalog query that returns nothing, i'm tryna get a poem's analysis by the poem's title: https://gist.github.com/yedi/8162720
13:48	yedi	when i put the query into the console, it works fine. but using it from my app code here doesn't work
13:50	yedi	i think it has something to do with the fact the query data structure is quoted before being sent to (d/q)
13:50	yedi	though im not sure why that's necessary since i though vectors evaluated to themselves anyways
13:55	yedi	nvm, figured it out
13:56	devn	hola
13:56	devn	where is monitor-enter and monitor-exit defined?
13:56	devn	,#'clojure.core/monitor-enter
13:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: clojure.core/monitor-enter in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:56	Bronsa	they are special forms, not var
13:57	devn	d'oh
13:57	devn	thanks Bronsa
13:58	devn	funny that I don't think I've ever really used them, same with ,#'clojure.core/locking
13:58	devn	but i guess the clojure.org description basically says don't use them, so not a huge surprise there
14:24	nmws	I've read a lot about agents (Clojure Programming book, online etc.) but I'm still struggling to get a fully worked out example in my head
14:27	Raynes	arrdem: All of them! ALL of them!!!!
14:27	Raynes	(none of them, actually)
14:27	arrdem	Raynes: oh good. bullet doged.
14:27	Raynes	arrdem: Well, except for nrepl since I had to switch over to cider.
14:27	arrdem	I think I still have crap kicking around that (require 'nrepl)s
14:27	arrdem	yerp.
14:31	jonasen	Bronsa: got it. Thanks
15:08	technomancy	https://twitter.com/ClojureMarkov
15:11	hiredman	Bronsa: I saw your datomic tweet, looks neat, have you done anything with core.logic on the analysis tree? I think with core.logic you could do queries over the tree without flattening it out as entities first (although doing that first may be a good idea anyway)
15:12	dsrx	hmm, won't be too long until ClojureMarkov retweets some of my thoughts about clojure :)
15:13	arrdem	technomancy: is that a bot that finds other bots using "clojure" or what...
15:14	arrdem	seems really good at picking out the spambots :P
15:14	technomancy	it's not a bot; they're hand-curated
15:14	technomancy	spam only
15:20	Clome	is there a naming convention for constants? Like (my-method MY-CONSTANT) or (my-method my-constant)
15:20	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
15:20	technomancy	Clome: the convention for constant is (def whatever 12)
15:21	technomancy	you use lower case with dashes
15:21	Clome	is there a way to define keywords? like (def :my-constant 4) ?
15:21	insamniac	waitwhat
15:21	technomancy	no, keywords always evaluate to themselves
15:22	Clome	damn
15:22	technomancy	that's kind of the whole point of keywords
15:22	insamniac	don't worry, you're not the only person scratching their head
15:22	insamniac	i'm a clojure nub too
15:22	Bronsa	hiredman: not yet -- I haven't really played with core.logic much. That's something that I want to do but I need to find some time first. Might even consider rewriting some passes using core.logic if it proves to be fast enough/easier, but I need to get familiar with it first.
15:23	Bronsa	technomancy: I've seen some CONSTANT in core.async impl code, made my eyes bleed.
15:23	Clome	i am not scratching my head, i just would like a better way to define constants, so i get dont confuse them with variables.
15:23	technomancy	oh dear
15:24	arrdem	Clome: ... why would that ever be an issue?
15:24	hiredman	Clome: what variables?
15:24	technomancy	there are no variables
15:24	technomancy	so that should make it easy
15:24	pdk	you could have a map from keywords to associated values
15:24	pdk	{:my-constant 4}
15:24	pdk	then look up that map for the value you want for :my-constnat
15:24	pdk	constant
15:24	arrdem	pdk: if you ever write production code like that I will find you
15:25	Clome	pdk thats slow
15:25	insamniac	lulz
15:25	Clome	i need speed
15:25	pdk	why not just name them const-constantname then
15:25	insamniac	that was going to be my suggestion too
15:25	pdk	or stick a - on them
15:25	Clome	(lwjgl/gl-create-shader lwjgl/gl-vertex-shader) vs (lwjgl/gl-create-shader :gl-vertex-shader), look how nicer the second example is, too bad it has drawbacks
15:26	insamniac	mole hill
15:27	rovar	what about a set of aliases?
15:27	rovar	that someone would just :refer :all
15:27	rovar	so it would be (lwjgl/gl-create-shader gl-vertex-shader)
15:27	rovar	put your constants/aliases in a separate namespace
15:30	Clome	rovar: namespace prefix is not an issue, I would like to use clojure constructs so i get proper highlining
15:32	Clome	Would people get mad if you use a custom neming convetion for constants? like MY-CONSTANT or _my-constant or should I just leave it normal my-constant. Feedback please?
15:32	hiredman	people have given you feedback, you just don't like it
15:33	arrdem	(inc hiredman)
15:33	lazybot	⇒ 31
15:33	gfredericks	whoever was saying yesterday that _ as the first arg in a protocol impl is smelly
15:33	gfredericks	I disagree
15:34	gfredericks	mainly because the deftype/defrecord fields are accessible directly
15:34	hiredman	gfredericks: sure, it happens a lot in my experience
15:34	gfredericks	hiredman: yeah mine too; I just hadn't thought of that exact point at the time it was being discussed
15:34	hiredman	gfredericks: or if you are using reify
15:35	gfredericks	good old reify
15:41	Clome	hiredman: It is not that I do not like them. I like pdk`s suggestion about the prefixes "constant" or "-", just do not know if people using clojure do this type of stuff or just leave it normal. Would have liked more opinions but w/e, I will stick with normal naming convention.
15:42	dsrx	(def ^:const my-constant 42) ?
15:42	dsrx	i mean, that won't prevent it from being redefined...
15:43	dsrx	but at least it's inlined, and the metadata is a good hint to not redefine it
15:44	hiredman	dsrx: I would recommend against using someone new to clojure using :const
15:44	Bronsa	dsrx: once it gets inlines, even if you redefine it, you won't notice the value change
15:48	gfredericks	i.e., the semantics of code reloading get more complicated
15:53	yedi	saddest thing about cljs is how many js libs require jquery
16:00	brainproxy	is it possible to "dual license" a Clojure project under EPL with option of a commercial license? seems like the EPL doesn't prohibit that, but wondering if there are examples of companies/developers doing so?
16:01	Clome	drsx: nice, I will probably use that, I have read on stackoverflow that it is much faster cuz it skips all indirect calls to that constant, if I understood it correctly it just replaces it at compile itme.
16:02	Clome	gfredericks: do you mean that if I define it with ^:const I won`t be able to redefine it at runtime?
16:02	rovar	brainproxy: you are welcome to release your commercial product under whatever licence you like as long as you wrote it
16:03	arrdem	Clome: correct. By using ^:const you are giving the compiler permission to play tricks with your constant value, because you are swearing that you won't change it ever. That's what Bronsa and gfredericks were on about.
16:04	arrdem	and when you start telling the compiler lies....
16:06	Clome	awesome, thanks
16:08	arrdem	anyone got a cond-> example kicking around?
16:09	Morgawr	arrdem: I don't have code lying around but maybe this can be of help http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13830194/clojure-new-cond-macro
16:10	gfredericks	arrdem: I use cond-> all the time for any kind of conditional modification
16:10	gfredericks	it's less repetition than (if (foo) (bar x) x)
16:10	gfredericks	and less readable to beginners!
16:10	[1]brian	i remember something on hacker news about a Clojure editor plugin/library used to transform Clojure code into idiomatic form, does anyone know what i'm talking about?
16:11	arrdem	gfredericks: right. I've recently fallen in love with as-> and I just tried to use cond-> with limited success, hence the question.
16:11	roland_	,(cond-> [] (even? 2) (conj :even) (odd? 3) (conj :odd))
16:11	clojurebot	[:even :odd]
16:12	jkj_	gfredericks: !
16:12	arrdem	gfredericks: I thought that the condition got ->'d with the value too, hence my confusion.
16:12	jkj_	i thing like that exists
16:12	jkj_	amaze, wow
16:12	gfredericks	arrdem: ah right; I want that too sometimes; I wrote such a thing and pasted it in here once
16:13	gfredericks	it must have been a one-liner
16:13	arrdem	gfredericks: feh. I'd bet so.
16:14	roland_	as-> is awesome as well
16:14	gfredericks	oh I think I called it cond->->, so that's searchable
16:15	jkj_	amazing. cond-> will shorten my code a lot
16:15	arrdem	jkj_: now check out as-> and be more amaze
16:15	gfredericks	quoting myself:
16:15	gfredericks	(defmacro cond->-> [x & pairs] (if-let [[c form & more] (seq pairs)] `(let [x# ~x] (cond->-> (if (-> x# ~c) (-> x# ~form) x#) ~@more)) x))
16:15	arrdem	$(do rant about lack of maintained paste library)
16:15	Morgawr	mmm... can someone provide an example of as->? I just found out about it and I can't quite understand how it works (seems cool)
16:16	amalloy	gfredericks: fwiw the seq there isn't strictly needed
16:16	roland_	,(as-> 3 a (+ a 4))
16:16	clojurebot	7
16:16	arrdem	,(as-> 1 foo (inc foo) (+ 1 foo) (+ foo 5))
16:16	clojurebot	8
16:16	Morgawr	ah!
16:16	gfredericks	,(as-> 42 <> [<> <> :foo <> (+ <> <>)]) ; unhelpful example
16:16	clojurebot	[42 42 :foo 42 84]
16:16	Morgawr	amazing! thanks
16:16	gfredericks	amalloy: I think I wondered that and didn't know if there was a guarantee about it
16:16	Morgawr	gfredericks: most helpful of all haha
16:16	arrdem	Morgawr: the win of as-> is when you don't have a clear first or last parameter that you always want to thread too.
16:17	arrdem	gfredericks: I acutally have a -<n> macro kicking around that used <>.....
16:17	jkj_	amaze!
16:17	gfredericks	I'm always using as-> when I'm threading a thing that ends up being the second of 3 args to reduce
16:17	Morgawr	so it's pretty much like doing (let a (-> initial_value f1 f2 f3)) ?
16:17	arrdem	Morgawr: bingo.
16:17	gfredericks	arrdem: yeah I can't use anything besides <> after seeing the swiss arrows lib
16:18	Morgawr	man, this will prettify my code a lot, I always do some stupid stuff like (#(f1 p1 % p2)) when my parameter is the second one in a threading macro
16:18	jkj_	i use (-> (#(... % ...)) fubar things... or nested (->> (-> crapness
16:18	Morgawr	^
16:18	arrdem	gfredericks: I've had swiss arrows in my profile forever but I've never found them compellingly useful.
16:18	jkj_	i see waking up today wasn't for nothing
16:18	gfredericks	arrdem: I don't think I ever used it. but I loved <>
16:18	gfredericks	<_> would be interesting too
16:18	arrdem	lol
16:19	gfredericks	or ___
16:20	decaf	(javadoc) tries to load docs in a swing frame. google doesn't help
16:20	gfredericks	,(as-> 1.5 $1.50 (* 3 $1.50))
16:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "$1.50" in class sandbox$eval122, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:20	decaf	cause I want to set browser in java, not java plugin in browser
16:20	arrdem	,(let [ಠ_ಠ 3] ಠ_ಠ)
16:20	clojurebot	3
16:20	arrdem	gfredericks: ^
16:22	gfredericks	unicode is like cheating
16:23	arrdem	I use the tex input mode in all my markdown files, and I have an emacs macro that shortens fn to the \lambda symbol
16:23	decaf	terminus has no 0CA0 and I don't care
16:23	arrdem	it's really confusing every time I start writing clojure because somewhere I'll try to write (\lambda [a b ]... ) and then catch myself
16:25	gws	[1]brian: could you be referring to https://github.com/jonase/kibit
16:25	[1]brian	yep found it. thanks
16:31	pepijndevos	Is there a way to serialize Clojure data maintaining structural sharing?
16:32	pepijndevos	like (deserialize (serialize [universe (assoc universe :foo :bar)])) and not end up with 2 universes.
16:34	arrdem	hum... is there a unicode lparen/rparen?
16:35	pepijndevos	Is the ascii one not good enough?
16:36	gws	arrdem: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13535172/list-of-all-unicodes-open-close-brackets
16:36	gws	heh MEDIUM LEFT PARENTHESIS ORNAMENT (U+2768, Ps): ❨
16:36	arrdem	(ing gws)
16:36	arrdem	(inc gws)
16:36	lazybot	⇒ 5
16:37	arrdem	❨^.^❩
16:37	arrdem	,(let [❨^.^❩ 4 ಠ_ಠ 3] (* ❨^.^❩ ಠ_ಠ))
16:37	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
16:37	arrdem	fack
16:38	arrdem	that was almost really goo
16:38	arrdem	d
16:39	gfredericks	find a unicode carrot
16:39	pepijndevos	What's the cool thing to write TCP servers in these days?
16:39	gfredericks	carot
16:39	gfredericks	tarot
16:40	gws	caret
16:40	gfredericks	pepijndevos: netcat
16:40	arrdem	cljcat!
16:40	gws	pepijndevos: node.js
16:40	pepijndevos	(use 'netcat)
16:40	gws	lol
16:41	pepijndevos	I suppose Aleph would be a decent choise, but I'm suprised noone did a Netty + core.async thing the day it was released.
16:41	gfredericks	netcat is a nerdy superhero
16:41	arrdem	just remember to set $LEIN_IRONIC_JURE kids
16:41	gfredericks	arrdem: of course I export it in my .bashrc
16:41	technomancy	pepijndevos: raw Java ServerSockets are fine too for most things
16:42	technomancy	you don't have to turn your program flow inside-out just because you're choosing raw TCP over HTTP, that is
16:43	pepijndevos	?
16:43	pepijndevos	inside out?
16:43	technomancy	pepijndevos: async vs threads I mean
16:43	pepijndevos	Oh I see
16:45	technomancy	I understand why it's necessary sometimes, but the assumption of "I want tcp sockets; better use aleph" leads to newbies getting thrown into the middle of stuff that's a lot more complicated than it needs to be
16:45	technomancy	just throwing that out there
16:48	pepijndevos	technomancy, yea, for most thinks a simple thead and a socket is more than enough
16:49	technomancy	you and I know that, but with all the buzz and conf talks about core.async I wonder if newcomers are getting a different message
16:49	pepijndevos	It's definitely fun to play with core.async
16:50	technomancy	boring sockets don't make the HN front page
16:50	arrdem	lol
16:50	pepijndevos	I should try
16:51	pepijndevos	"developer writes server using theads and sockets"
16:51	technomancy	"look how it's only 80% as many lines of code!"
16:52	pepijndevos	but then I'd actuallly have to do something. For hello world, the boilerplate dominates the async/sync difference
17:05	CaptainLex	I have a few hashes of the form {:foo a :bar b} {:foo a :bar c} and I would like to combine them into a single hash of the form {:a [b,c]}. This doesn't quite seem like a job for map.
17:06	CaptainLex	But it sounds exceedingly fnal
17:06	JasonFelice	I keep wanting there to be a function in clojure.core where (= '([1 2 3 4] [2 3 4] [3 4] [4]) (f [1 2 3 4]))
17:07	TEttinger	CaptainLex, seems like an odd result value
17:07	JasonFelice	CaptainLex: merge-with
17:07	JasonFelice	Oh, I didn't read the whole thing. Not merge-with.
17:08	CaptainLex	TEttinger: Well, the specific case is a bunch of hashes with dates and time; I'd like to combine then into a hash where times are keyed to their dates
17:08	CaptainLex	So really you'd have a hash at the end that looks like {:a [b,c] :d [e,f,g]} etc
17:08	JasonFelice	CaptainLex: clojure.set/index does something similar, maybe that's useful.
17:09	TEttinger	so CaptainLex, you want the :foo and :bar stripped out right?
17:10	CaptainLex	TEttinger: Well, as long as I'm grouping times by date, I'm neutral as to whether :foo and :bar are still present
17:10	TEttinger	ok, uh I just woke up, do you have any sample data and sample results?
17:11	CaptainLex	Hahah yeah, lemme mock something up
17:13	CaptainLex	{:date 2013/12/28 :time 19:30}
17:13	CaptainLex	{:date 2013/12/28 :time 21:30}
17:13	CaptainLex	{:date 2014/1/1 :time 19:30}
17:13	CaptainLex	{:date 2014/1/1 :time 21:30}
17:13	CaptainLex
17:13	CaptainLex	=>
17:13	CaptainLex
17:13	CaptainLex	[{:date 2013/12/28 :time [19:30, 21:30]}, {:date 2014/1/1 :time [19:30, 21:30}] ;;Something like this
17:14	arrdem	~paste
17:14	clojurebot	paste is not gist.github.com
17:14	CaptainLex	Woops
17:14	arrdem	eez cool, just something to be aware of.
17:14	arrdem	~refheap
17:14	clojurebot	https://www.refheap.com/
17:14	arrdem	is also acceptable
17:15	CaptainLex	https://www.refheap.com/22267 :{
17:15	CaptainLex	:P*
17:15	arrdem	CaptainLex: danke :D
17:15	sritchie	magnars: hey, thanks for the help
17:15	sritchie	upgrading now
17:16	CaptainLex	I can see broadly how this works, but actually implementing it in the language is trickier
17:16	magnars	sritchie: my pleasure! I want optimus to be a really solid piece of software. So thanks for reporting issues :)
17:16	arrdem	CaptainLex: I suspect that you're gonna want some combination of reduce, contains and conj.
17:17	sritchie	magnars: I think your new issue covers it, but just to make sure,
17:17	sritchie	I actually wasn't seeing a base URL for contextless paths
17:18	sritchie	magnars: with a base-url of "https://cdn.paddleguru.com", for example, and an asset of "/img/logo.png", the images inside the CSS wouldn't get the base, though the CSS file itself would
17:19	magnars	sritchie: no, adding a :base-url to an asset won't fix its contents. Or the contents of any referencing assets either. If you want the :base-url in CSS files, you need to replace its :contents "manually" in the transformation function. However, it isn't necessary to do that if your :base-url doesn't have a context-path. In your case, even tho the CSS doesn't
17:19	magnars	explicitly link to http://cdn.paddleguru.com - the images will still be served from there when referenced with absolute URLs.
17:21	sritchie	absolute URLs meaning, "/img/logo.ong"?
17:21	sritchie	png*
17:21	sritchie	that's the part I'm not clear on, on why it's not necessary without the context pathj
17:21	magnars	yes - when the CSS is served from paddleguru, any absolute URLs in the CSS will also be served from there
17:21	sritchie	oh, interesting
17:22	sritchie	so the context bug doesn't affect me, then. accidental sleuthing
17:22	sritchie	magnars: boom, awesome
17:22	magnars	excellent! :)
17:27	TEttinger	CaptainLex:
17:27	TEttinger	,(apply merge-with #(flatten (conj [%1] %2)) (mapv (fn [m] {(:date m) (:time m)}) [{:date "2013/12/28" :time "19:30"} {:date "2013/12/28" :time "19:31"} {:date "2013/12/28" :time "21:30"} {:date "2014/1/1" :time "19:30"} {:date "2014/1/1" :time "21:30"}]))
17:27	clojurebot	{"2014/1/1" ("19:30" "21:30"), "2013/12/28" ("19:30" "19:31" "21:30")}
17:27	TEttinger	not the right format, quite yet
17:28	CaptainLex	TEttinger: Thank you! :D I'll poke around with it :)
17:28	TEttinger	no prob
17:28	TEttinger	good wake-up task
17:30	TEttinger	,(mapv (fn [[k v]] {:date k :time (vec v)}) (apply merge-with #(flatten (conj [%1] %2)) (mapv (fn [m] {(:date m) (:time m)}) [{:date "2013/12/28" :time "19:30"} {:date "2013/12/28" :time "19:31"} {:date "2013/12/28" :time "21:30"} {:date "2014/1/1" :time "19:30"} {:date "2014/1/1" :time "21:30"}])))
17:30	clojurebot	[{:date "2014/1/1", :time ["19:30" "21:30"]} {:date "2013/12/28", :time ["19:30" "19:31" "21:30"]}]
17:30	sritchie	magnars: actually, seeing java.lang.Exception: Two assets have the same path "/cljs/reset-codes.js", but are not equal.
17:31	magnars	It's a good thing it put that in there then.
17:31	magnars	I wonder how they differ. That might be relevant information. :P
17:31	sritchie	magnars: well, there's only one file, actually
17:31	sritchie	with that names
17:31	sritchie	name*
17:32	magnars	Somehow there's ended up with two assets with that path loaded. You could do a filter in the list of assets and see?
17:33	sritchie	okay, trying that out
17:34	sritchie	probably one's inside a bundle
17:34	sritchie	and the other's not
17:35	magnars	That sounds very likely.
17:35	magnars	Bundled files are still available on the original paths, so there's no need to include them twice.
17:35	magnars	I could add a specific error message for that case.
17:35	sritchie	let's see
17:38	sritchie	magnars: so, here's what it is
17:38	sritchie	magnars: I've got a bundle with some files, which I had thought was just a particular grouping of those files -
17:38	sritchie	and then another call to (assets/load-assets "public" [#"/cljs/.+\.js$"])
17:39	sritchie	magnars: but I don't quite understand why the contents would be different.
17:40	magnars	The contents are the same - it's the :bundle property that's triggering the error.
17:40	magnars	There's also the case that you might want to have one file in two different bundles.
17:40	sritchie	yup
17:40	magnars	So while the exception has brought to light an issue, I'm not entirely sure what to think of it yet.
17:41	sritchie	could you ignore the bundle property in the equality check?
17:41	logic_prog	is there a way to tell "lein cljsbuild auto" that "whenever you rebuild, kill existing chrome, fire up a new chrome, and have it load up url __BLAH__ " ?
17:41	magnars	sritchie: I can do that for now.
17:45	sritchie	magnars: https://github.com/magnars/optimus/pull/10
17:45	sritchie	magnars: this is where type classes for custom equality comes in handy
17:46	magnars	Indeed. But I don't think this is the solution going forward - since it will now collapse down to just one asset - losing any different :bundle definitions.
17:47	magnars	I can merge your PR to fix your issue now, but it will have to be handled differently soon.
17:48	sritchie	yeah, that makes sense. I wonder if I should change it to pick the asset with a bundle definition, if either has one
17:48	magnars	sritchie: How about instead, I make sure assets are distinct on the juxt of :path and :bundle ?
17:48	sritchie	that works for me
17:48	magnars	ok, I'll get on that
17:49	sritchie	mine's buggy anyway, since if the non-bundled version comes first, you lose the bundle information
17:50	magnars	yeah, could be solved by doing a merge in the reduction tho
17:57	magnars	sritchie: 0.13.2 released
17:57	sritchie	trying now
18:02	sritchie	okay, works great
18:02	sritchie	thank you sir
18:02	magnars	Good to hear :-)
18:04	arrdem	(inc magnars) ;; good mantainer points!
18:04	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:04	magnars	My first point! Thank you arrdem :)
18:08	sritchie	magnars: it looks like Chrome actually does require a cache-control header
18:08	sritchie	even though it's the same as the expires, technically
18:08	magnars	sritchie: That is weird, since I removed the Cache-Control header on information from Google :)
18:09	magnars	sritchie: I'll plop it back in again - not exactly the end of the world sending two headers that may or may not be overlapping / superflous.
18:10	sritchie	I think cache-control overrides expires, but apparently chrome needs the former
18:10	sritchie	gotta inc as well
18:10	sritchie	(inc magnars)
18:10	lazybot	⇒ 2
18:10	sritchie	crazy inc rate
18:11	arrdem	if we project his karam out with linear approximation, in less than 24hrs he'll have the most in-channel karma!
18:11	magnars	:)
18:13	magnars	sritchie: Cache-Control is back in again in 0.13.3
18:13	sritchie	haha, amazing
18:13	sritchie	trying now
18:14	sritchie	optimus has been live at paddleguru.com for a while now, btw -
18:14	sritchie	if you want to see where we're using this stuff
18:14	magnars	oh, very cool :)
18:17	sritchie	okay, looks great. chrome is still having trouble caching this one js resource when I revisit a page, but the headers all look good
18:23	magnars	sritchie: Now that Optimus adds Last-Modified headers, it should work well with ring.middleware.not-modified. I haven't gotten around to testing it yet tho. Will do so shortly. Anyhow, that might improve the situation you mention, since Chrome at least should only get a 304 Not Modified.
18:35	magnars	sritchie: Tested now, and that worked very well. Added example of how to respond with 304 Not Modified to the README. It's pretty much a no-brainer. :-) https://github.com/magnars/optimus
18:40	sritchie	magnars: works great
18:40	sritchie	magnars: ugh, chrome just won't look in its cache for this one bundle
18:40	sritchie	weird
18:41	magnars	the ways of the optimizer are mysterious to mere mortals
18:45	mocker	Instead of practicing 4clojure problems I started reworking 4clojure.el to allow me to submit authenticated answers
18:49	volchok60	:quit
18:49	volchok60	quit:
18:50	hyPiRion	/quit it is
18:50	mrcheeks	heh
18:50	magnars	mocker: oh, if I could do 4clojure problems in my Emacs and submit authenticated answers, that would increase my joy of 4clojure by quite a bit. Should I be watching this repo, or somewhere else? https://github.com/joshuarh/4clojure.el
18:51	mocker	That's the one, I'll submit a pull request when I finish it up.
18:51	magnars	nice!
18:51	mocker	But, submitted my first authenticated solution earlier!
18:51	mocker	:)
18:51	magnars	:)
18:52	mocker	Just couldn't imagine having to copy and paste all the time, that would annoy to no end.
18:53	magnars	Yeah, unbearable.
18:53	akurilin	bitemyapp: man, you have a serious mix going on there on Spotify \m/
19:01	hiredman	/win 15
19:15	TEttinger	ok, if a java lib I use was compiled on JDK 7, but I use leiningen's :javac-options ["-target" "1.6" "-source" "1.6"], it won't recompile the library and I'll still be targeting 1.7, right?
19:15	hyPiRion	no
19:16	hyPiRion	if the library itself was compiled with 1.7, it won't be recompiled down to 1.6
19:16	TEttinger	because I'm getting an incompatible version error when someone runs my program on a mac with 1.6
19:16	hiredman	sure
19:17	hiredman	because the library you use is 1.7 only
19:17	TEttinger	so should I rebuild the lib? I think JDK 7 uninstalled my JDK 6
19:17	hiredman	TEttinger: shrug
19:18	hyPiRion	TEttinger: You don't need to use JDK 6 for it, as long as you pass in those parameters
19:18	hyPiRion	Although it is a good idea to check that it runs on 1.6
19:18	TEttinger	it doesn't
19:18	hiredman	that assumes the library doesn't use any 1.7 features
19:18	TEttinger	it doesn't
19:20	TEttinger	how would I check what version a maven jar was compiled for?
19:42	Clome	is there a function that applies a function on each element of a collection? I have tried (apply) but it seems like the function you are pasing to it needs to suport any number of arguments. I would like (apply fn coll) where it iterates over the coll and applies fn to each element, and fn is only able to accept one argument. Is there one, or do i have to implement it?
19:44	magnars	Clome: are you looking for map?
19:45	TEttinger	Clome, yeah map or mapv
19:45	TEttinger	(doc map)
19:45	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
19:45	TEttinger	,(map inc [1 2 3])
19:45	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
19:49	TEttinger	Clome, I'm kinda surprised whatever resource you're using to learn clojure didn't cover map, it's one of the most-used functions in clojure
19:49	Clome	I will try map even though I dont need a collection back, all I need is to apply some side effects to the arguments and return nil.
19:49	TEttinger	oh, you mean reduce?
19:49	JanxSpirit	trying to use noir.response.json and getting java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/noir.response
19:49	Clome	I know about map
19:50	logic_prog_	in cljs, what is the closest thing to clojure.core.format ?
19:50	TEttinger	well uh
19:50	JanxSpirit	I can't see to figure out the correct import
19:50	logic_prog_	wait, clojure.core.format is probably nil
19:50	JanxSpirit	newb here obviously
19:50	TEttinger	there's doseq, which is meant for side effects and returns nul
19:50	TEttinger	nil
19:50	logic_prog_	in cljs, what is the closest thing to format ?
19:51	TEttinger	(doc doseq)
19:51	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
19:51	TEttinger	not very helpful that doc
19:51	JanxSpirit	I did (:require [noir.response])
19:52	JanxSpirit	and then (GET "/json" [] (json {:result "this is json"}))
19:52	JanxSpirit	am I requiring wrong?
19:53	TEttinger	,(doseq [e (repeatedly 5 #(java.util.Random.))] (print (.nextDouble e) " "))
19:53	clojurebot	0.2754962034583899 0.5572356845394634 0.010696014221999728 0.7035002207066564 0.7873626149862337
19:54	TEttinger	Clome, does that help? repeatedly in there creates some mutable java objects, and it does side effects in the body
19:54	Clome	TEttinger: thanks, doseq is what I was looking for
19:55	TEttinger	Clome, I had trouble for a while with dorun, doall, and doseq... usually doseq is more-often used
19:56	JanxSpirit	any advice?
19:57	TEttinger	JanxSpirit, that's in your ns part right?
19:57	TEttinger	the :requie
19:57	JanxSpirit	it is, yes
19:58	TEttinger	so, yes I think you are requiring wrong, maybe
19:59	JanxSpirit	I can pete it all somewhere if you're willing to take a look
19:59	TEttinger	yeah, gist or refheap, sure
19:59	JanxSpirit	I feel like Ive tried a lot of ways
19:59	TEttinger	I think a parenthesis may be in the wrong place
20:01	JanxSpirit	https://www.refheap.com/22274
20:01	Clome	TEttinger: do you maybe know how to extract the index out? Or is there another special form for this?
20:01	JanxSpirit	that's the current incarnation
20:01	JanxSpirit	I've been thrashing ofr a bit and tried a variety of things though
20:07	JanxSpirit	also sorry for my typing - broke my arm the other day and am one handed
20:09	JanxSpirit	Tettinger anything glaring there?
20:11	TEttinger	sorry just got back
20:11	TEttinger	Clome, to get indices, it's probably better to use map-indexed
20:12	TEttinger	JanxSpirit, yes
20:12	TEttinger	your ns is never closed
20:12	TEttinger	or it is closed at the end of the file, which is wrong
20:12	JanxSpirit	doh!
20:13	TEttinger	[tango-luminus.util :as util]) should be [tango-luminus.util :as util]))
20:13	TEttinger	yep!
20:13	JanxSpirit	think I just introduced that
20:13	JanxSpirit	ok now I'm getting one I saw earlier
20:13	JanxSpirit	empty already refers to: #'noir.response/empty in namespace: tango-luminus.routes.home
20:13	TEttinger	ah!
20:13	ddima	TEttinger: javap -version
20:13	TEttinger	you should generally require as
20:13	TEttinger	thanks ddima
20:14	JanxSpirit	thought Lighttable would ding me for the parens...
20:14	ddima	my connection died and i didnt notice, so thus the delay ;)
20:14	JanxSpirit	ok I'll try that
20:15	JanxSpirit	no love on require as
20:15	JanxSpirit	still same error about empty
20:17	TEttinger	JanxSpirit, I mean
20:17	TEttinger	(:require [noir.response :as n-r]) and refer to empty as n-r/empty
20:18	TEttinger	or whatever name you choose
20:20	TEttinger	other names from noir.response would need to be similarly changed
20:21	JanxSpirit	tettinger I don't use empty is the thing
20:21	TEttinger	yes
20:21	clojurebot	yes isn't is
20:21	TEttinger	but there is a var empty in both files, and you are including both if you require without :as
20:23	JanxSpirit	here's my current - still the same error: https://www.refheap.com/22276
20:24	TEttinger	uhhhh I have no idea. try lein clean
20:24	TEttinger	I have to go, dinner with family
20:25	JanxSpirit	thanks for the help
20:27	yedi	why does take! require a function to pass the value to?
20:28	JanxSpirit	tettinger lein clean did it - thanks again!
20:30	TEttinger	yay
20:37	Clome	Guys, what are you using for logging, timbre?
20:43	yedi	dat feel when you can't figure out why the cljs compiler is hanging...
21:09	rovar	is there a way to execute something in one namespace from another?
21:11	rovar	i know I could change a namespace.. so I guess I could just call in-ns .. not sure how to pop back out of it..
21:16	Cr8	rovar: what is the desired effect of executing the code in a different ns
21:18	rovar	Cr8: I am making a collaborative MUD. I am experimenting with each room having its own verbs (fns) in their own contexts
21:19	Cr8	ah
21:19	Cr8	(binding [ns (create-ns 'the-namespace)] (eval '(code-to-eval-in-ns)))
21:19	Cr8	create-ns will return the existing ns if one exists
21:19	rovar	ah so that's what the binding call does..
21:20	Cr8	binding rebinds dynamic vars and then pops the binding at the end
21:20	rovar	very cool..
21:21	rovar	I am considering making all functions pure by requirement, then just taking their results and re-binding them back into the global state..
21:21	rovar	so just executing everything in one of several sandboxes.
21:22	Cr8	I mean, unless folks are actually typing clojure code
21:22	Cr8	are they?
21:22	rovar	they could be
21:22	Cr8	mm
21:22	Cr8	okay
21:23	rovar	everyone that wishes to can contribute verbs to some scope
21:23	rovar	only admins will be allowed to contribute to the global scope..
21:23	rovar	or write functions at the room scope which shadow those at the global scope..
21:23	rovar	basically it's more of a multi-user lisp repl than a MUD..
21:24	rovar	the effect I hope is something in-between...
21:25	logic_prog	cljx is fucking awesome
21:25	logic_prog	not only does it make code sharing between clj + cljs easier
21:25	logic_prog	it even makes using macros in cljs easier
21:25	logic_prog	cljx is fucking awesome
21:25	rovar	I hope to learn cljx soon
21:26	v4n	Is it considered appropiate to use def as long as it is defined outside local scopes (e.g. namespaces)?
21:27	v4n	Or should def be overall avoided outside any REPL experimenting?
21:27	rovar	def at the namespace level seems fine..
21:27	rovar	sometimes its necessary.
21:27	gfredericks	v4n: you mean as opposed to defn?
21:28	gfredericks	it's a weird question because pretty much everything is a def
21:28	v4n	I mean in the first pages of programming with clojure, it is mentioned to avoid using def.
21:29	v4n	So I am curious is if the warning is REPL and scope specific or for the overall language.
21:30	rovar	v4n: I think you should use let wherever possible, but if you want something to be available between function calls, its your only choice
21:31	dnolen	k Om is now a lot more draconian about forcing users to consider concurrency issues - a big improvement in my opinion
21:31	v4n	rovar: Makes sense
21:43	gfredericks	v4n: oh yeah; 99% of defs are constants or point-free function definitions or dynamic vars
21:53	ivan	yedi: maybe your cljs compiler has put your JVM into an endless GC loop due to not enough heap space?
21:54	ivan	yedi: connecting visualvm to it might help
21:54	yedi	ivan: no longer an issue, though i have no idea what fixed it
21:54	yedi	thanks though
21:56	grandy_	hey just wondering if someone would mind doing a quick code review of some clojure i just wrote to "join" two CSV files... it's less than 20 lines of code
21:57	grandy_	i'm curious for someone to point out all the obvious things that are stupid or non-idiomatic about it
21:58	arrdem	grandy_: drop a paste. if it's sketchy someone will loudly object :P
21:58	grandy_	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/055c885f955723401590
21:59	grandy_	i'm sure there is a ton wrong/stupid about it so don't hold back
22:00	Arafangion	I don't know any clojure, but that's not a streaming implementation, isn't it?
22:00	grandy_	Arafangion: correct
22:00	Arafangion	It reads all from one file, then all from the other file, and then joins it?
22:01	grandy_	Arafangion: yep
22:01	Arafangion	I'd object to that! ;)
22:01	grandy_	Arafangion: it's possible the rows in the files might be in a different order
22:02	Arafangion	Well it's readable for someone who doesn't have lisp coding experience.
22:02	grandy_	Arafangion: hah not sure if that's a good thing or not
22:02	Arafangion	(Other than tiny emacs configuration files)
22:02	arrdem	I mean... you could read all of one file, then read the other file by lines and merge on the 2nd file..
22:02	grandy_	arrdem: true
22:03	arrdem	and there's nothing blatantly bad about it...
22:03	Arafangion	arrdem: Not sure if that would be an advantage unless you could also stream on the output.
22:03	grandy_	it seems that it would be possible to just join additional files using reduce
22:03	arrdem	Arafangion: File.writeline?
22:04	Arafangion	arrdem: While streaming? Doesn't he have to re-order the whole CSV first?
22:04	arrdem	Arafangion: why? as long as he can match ID pairs from one file to the other he can totally stream the output
22:04	Arafangion	So he'd have to read at least one of those files in their entirety.
22:05	arrdem	Arafangion: I mean he's already reading both files in their entirety.
22:05	arrdem	at the same time...
22:06	arrdem	Arafangion: note the (doall) in open-csv.
22:08	Arafangion	arrdem: Yes, he could do it there, and I guess streaming one file would represent an advantage, but it's still reading the other file in the entirety so that he can match up ID's?)
22:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: you need more risque french electro-pop in your life.
22:09	grandy_	any thoughts on naming or function argument structure?
22:10	bitemyapp	grandy_: order function arguments by increasing variance.
22:10	bitemyapp	grandy_: name the functions in a verby sort of way.
22:10	grandy_	bitemyapp: thanks!
22:11	grandy_	have i missed some much more elegant way to do anything this program does?
22:13	Arafangion	grandy_: Some might find using lambda's more elegant, but as it stands, your defn's do some clearly defined task.
22:14	TEttinger	rovar, clojail might be handy for your purposes
22:15	yedi	any cljs core.async afficionados wanna do a code review: https://github.com/yedi/rhyme-finder/blob/master/src/cljs/rhyme_finder/rhymer.cljs#L36
22:16	grandy_	Arafangion: ok makes sense, thought about using lambdas in a few cases actually but wasn't convinced it would improve readability
22:17	rovar	TEttinger: I am using it :)
22:17	CaptainLex	TEttinger: I just noticed you provided a complete solution! o_o Thank you so much!
22:17	grandy_	thanks everyone for the advice
22:17	TEttinger	haha sorry I should have said your nick
22:17	Arafangion	grandy_: Personally, it violates the do-one-thing principles.
22:17	TEttinger	no prob, CaptainLex
22:18	rovar	TEttinger: the trick is figuring out how and when to execute un-sandboxed..
22:18	grandy_	Arafangion: what does?
22:19	rovar	e.g. all actual IO has to occur outside of the sandbox, so I have compute the results of functions inside a sandbox and then send the results in un-sandboxed code
22:19	[1]brian	what are your tricks to a faster jvm startup time for Leiningen, guys?
22:19	rovar	but I also need to update the available verbs within a namespace from outside the sandboex..
22:19	[1]brian	i experimented with drip without much success
22:21	Clome	anyone here using mirc clinet? If so how do you hide all the notifications in the chat windows, I would like to see only the messages.
22:34	Arafangion	grandy_: Ideally, each function should do one clear, distinct task.
22:34	Arafangion	grandy_: However, detractors point out that by putting everything into one function, one can more easily see the "shape" of how the code operates.
22:35	Arafangion	grandy_: But I'm new to clojure, haven't even downloaded it. (Actually, I've downlaoded it, that's it).
22:46	marcopolo`	Is there a way yet to handle libraries with different dependency versions? akin to this question: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/q93CQSQ6Aeo
22:49	ivan	marcopolo`: if the API changed, you basically have to fix all callers to work with the new version, or fix the library to support both the old and new API
22:56	rovar	is there a map that is not lazy?
22:56	rovar	I know there is doseq, but I'd prefer map semantics
22:56	rovar	less typing in this case..
22:56	rovar	ah.. dorun
23:00	dnolen	rovar: doall is a bit more idiomatic if you want to force a lazy seq, also reducers are not lazy.
23:00	rovar	dnolen: I don't care about the results, so not storing the seq in mem is fine..
23:09	TEttinger	rovar: mapv is not lazy
23:11	rovar	huh
23:12	rovar	I find shift-up/down very convenient to switch between panes in emacs
23:13	rovar	except for the fact that alt-up/down deletes a chunk of my code
23:15	arrdem	rovar: minor inconvenience that
23:15	arrdem	bitemyapp: links or it didn't happen
23:16	arrdem	bitemyapp: also buying my 10/22 tomorrow :D
23:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: awesome :)
23:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99UqvgCmE8
23:16	bitemyapp	Raynes: ^^
23:17	Raynes	bitemyapp: Oh boy do I have something for you!
23:17	Raynes	bitemyapp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tolm-07if3c :p
23:18	Raynes	bitemyapp: Anyways, yes, I very much like girlpop :p
23:19	rovar	Raynes: speaking of youtube. I just watched your clojureconj talk on clojail. Very helpful
23:19	rovar	clojail is proving to be quite useful..
23:19	Raynes	rovar: It probably wasn't, actually. I basically rewrote the whole darn thing after that talk. :P
23:19	Raynes	Around technomancy's lovely serializable-fns.
23:20	rovar	the sfns seem to be a small part of it..
23:20	Raynes	That's a lie. The talk is still useful.
23:20	rovar	an important part..
23:20	Raynes	Just that the API has changed a bit and stuff.
23:20	rovar	I'm using the sfns too
23:20	arrdem	Raynes: what am I watching...
23:20	Raynes	arrdem: SHUT UP AND LET ME GO
23:20	Raynes	!
23:20	rovar	I just pulled the code out of try-clojure as it seemed to apply to what I'm doing..
23:20	arrdem	(ban! Raynes)
23:21	arrdem	Raynes: didn't work.
23:21	bitemyapp	hum. I am satisfied this template library will work I think.
23:21	Raynes	rovar: Aye. I'm happy you enjoyed the talk. And my blue hair.
23:21	Raynes	I hope you enjoyed my blue hair.
23:21	bitemyapp	Raynes: not enough gallic women in this music video you sent me.
23:21	Raynes	It'd be a shameful waste of dye otherwise.
23:21	Raynes	bitemyapp: Tradeoffs, man.
23:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: "such doge" is on the other team..
23:22	bitemyapp	Raynes: dat text
23:23	rovar	this video is sexually suggestive
23:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: you're in DotA2?
23:23	arrdem	bitemyapp: da
23:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: gut. Grinding out dem games?
23:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: I needed more flaming golems in my life
23:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: also found a group that generally runs 4 and 5 man teams. Might be able to peel people off that to fill out a team periodically.
23:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: so far I'm 3/0 in tonight's pug games..
23:24	bitemyapp	Eggscellent.
23:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: hero?
23:24	rovar	I played the tutorial of Dota2 after someone here suggested that I try it
23:24	rovar	need to get back to that..
23:24	rovar	too busy clojuring
23:25	bitemyapp	rovar: I'm off in MonadIO Typeable1 la-la land.
23:25	bitemyapp	dem unsafe unitypes. yissss
23:26	rovar	bitemyapp: haskell?
23:26	bitemyapp	rovar: yeah. I'm seeing how many pragmas I can mix before this code blows up in my face.
23:26	bitemyapp	Haskell is a good mad-scientist language.
23:26	rovar	heh
23:27	bitemyapp	I actually already figured out how to make this unsafe coerce stuff segfault.
23:27	bitemyapp	Now trying to figure out if I can trick the compiler into letting me escape the IO monad. Probably not.
23:27	rovar	it's unsafe coerce, that's not a challenge, try to make the pure stuff segfault
23:28	rovar	unsafeExecIO
23:28	rovar	err unsafeRunIO
23:28	rovar	I really did not enjoy wrangling monads in haskell, which is why I quit coding in it
23:29	bitemyapp	rovar: I don't even know what unsafeRunIO is.
23:29	bitemyapp	rovar: is that ST or IO?
23:29	rovar	one monad.. super awesome.. the problem is that any integrated app, like a web app, ends up requiring me to intermix 8 different IO monads
23:29	bitemyapp	rovar: I don't really mind the monads because I only use them as much as I want.
23:29	rovar	there's really no good way to do that..
23:29	rovar	it should be in IO
23:29	rovar	it does what you hope it might, run your IO monad and give you a result.. I might be misremembering the name..
23:30	bitemyapp	rovar: a web app is what I'm tinkering with. My only real complaint at the moment is that the wacky template library thinks it needs IO for rendering a flat string.
23:30	bitemyapp	that's a pretty understandable decision, given that in the typical case you'd be reading the filesystem.
23:31	bitemyapp	rovar: I can't find it on hackage or hoogle.
23:31	bitemyapp	rovar: I haven't experienced the pain you're talking about just yet. Mixing the template lib with Scotty hasn't been an issue yet.
23:31	rovar	IO.Unsafe unsafePerformIO and unsafeInterleaveIO
23:31	bitemyapp	rovar: next up is persistence. What stack were you using? HAppS?
23:31	bitemyapp	gerd dermert hayoo.
23:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm killing lifestealer with my fatal bonds. wat.
23:33	rovar	I've mucked with both Snap and Yesod extensively
23:33	rovar	I actually contributed to AcidState a loooong time ago when it was part of HAppStack
23:33	rovar	I also wrote the original MongoDB drivers for Haskell
23:33	rovar	then 10Gen hired a haskell guy who went and made them monadtastic
23:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: ...
23:34	bitemyapp	rovar: yeah, I like Haskell a lot, I just think the monad stuff merits restraint.
23:34	rovar	rovar, back to work, slave.
23:34	rovar	oh.. i had a real question
23:34	rovar	with paredit
23:35	rovar	how does one insert a function call into an existing set of parens?
23:35	rovar	it's not optional, man.
23:35	bitemyapp	rovar: I have a problem I was working on that turned into an absolute horror in the absence of types so I decided a rewrite merited giving Haskell a shot at making my problem nicer.
23:35	bitemyapp	rovar: that's really cool that you worked on that stuff. Yesod seems like a sure-fire path to monad Hell though. That's why I stay closer to WAI.
23:35	bitemyapp	I might try Happstack or Snap but I'm not really going to benefit from a "framework" for what I'm doing.
23:37	bitemyapp	what's not optional?
23:37	bitemyapp	rovar: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14170403/using-paredit-to-wrap-existing-expression
23:37	rovar	http://clojure.jr0cket.co.uk/perfect-environment/paredit-guide
23:37	rovar	<3
23:37	rovar	monads
23:37	rovar	if you can keep your application away from IO as long as possible, you win
23:39	TEttinger	Raynes, bitemyapp, have some weird j-pop music video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g
23:40	bitemyapp	rovar: I have a pure subset of my code and that's where I need the type system the most anyway.
23:40	bitemyapp	I don't really care that much about tracking effects in a web app.
23:40	rovar	that guide I found is actually quite nice..
23:40	rovar	alt-(
23:40	rovar	is the bees shit
23:40	rovar	it has already changed my life for the better
23:40	rovar	in the last 1.5 minutes that I discovered it
23:41	bitemyapp	TEttinger: dafuq
23:42	TEttinger	i kno rite
23:42	bitemyapp	it probably says something that my work desktop didn't even have Java installed.
23:43	bitemyapp	TEttinger: enjoying this, thanks!
23:43	bitemyapp	still don't know what the fuck is going on though.
23:43	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I guess J-pop isn't into music videos with a narrative?
23:43	TEttinger	haha
23:43	TEttinger	it's some kind of cultural critique on that kind of girl that likes eldritch horrors
23:43	TEttinger	you know, japan stuff
23:44	arrdem	why do I click on the links in here...
23:44	TEttinger	arrdem, I'm telling you, it could be much worse
23:46	bitemyapp	TEttinger: wait what
23:46	bitemyapp	TEttinger: the artist herself said she likes grotesque things
23:46	bitemyapp	why would...what...why...oh god what is going on I don't know how to internet
23:46	bitemyapp	this is more confusing than that weird MonadIO thing earlier.
23:46	TEttinger	hahaha
23:47	bitemyapp	rovar: also what in the shit is MonadIO for?
23:47	TEttinger	it's multi-layered, like an onion or reality
23:47	arrdem	Kpop, it's weirder than monands!
23:47	bitemyapp	I had to make a type expression for IO ByteString to get it to shut the fuck up about multiple possible specific instances of MonadIO - why would you even vary the monadic type?
23:47	bitemyapp	seriously, why?
23:48	bitemyapp	do people make specialized IO monads to run their code in?
23:48	bitemyapp	:\|
23:48	bitemyapp	brain a'splode.
23:48	rovar	bitemyapp: it lets you lift common (typeclass implemented) monads into the IO monad
23:48	rovar	bitemyapp: yes, it makes their life easier in the short run to do so
23:48	rovar	and harder (IMO) in the long run
23:49	bitemyapp	rovar: well I could tell they were lazy when I saw all the Typeable1 flying around.
23:50	bitemyapp	Saw that and said, "ah well fuck it then"
23:50	rovar	it allows you to do things such as make params implicit for functions that mutate that param
23:50	bitemyapp	rovar: isn't the vanilla State monad like that?
23:50	bitemyapp	I bumped into a use of StateT that was like that.
23:50	rovar	for instance, lets say you have a database client, it obviously needs to run in IO because it needs TCP. So you could put it into an IO monad, and the param to your function and its return value will be the database client object.
23:50	bitemyapp	I think in this case Hastache was using MonadIO to genericize their access against the fs.
23:51	bitemyapp	Could be (very) wrong tho.
23:51	bitemyapp	rovar: yeah but isn't that like...a closure?
23:51	bitemyapp	you could just make the db-client a curried first argument, couldn't you?
23:51	rovar	closures are the only state you have in haskell :)
23:52	rovar	you kind of can, but it still needs to run in the IO monad
23:52	bitemyapp	well I knew that
23:52	bitemyapp	just saying that I don't see a need for auto-baking the implicit param into it when currying would suffice.
23:52	bitemyapp	unless the implicit param needs to be magically auto-swappable.
23:52	bitemyapp	Would that be the point in this case or is it something else?
23:52	rovar	actually.. you might not be able to, .. because the return of your function is a mutated db client object, which you need to pass to your next call..
23:53	rovar	hence the whole reason for monads :)
23:53	bitemyapp	hum. yes.
23:53	rovar	they've created these things called monad wrappers, which help generalize all of your IO monads into a single one, but its still a pain, IMO
23:54	rovar	Yesod's main "loop" was a StateT of like 8 monads
23:54	bitemyapp	LOL
23:54	bitemyapp	rovar: yeah, that's partly why I don't use Yesod :P
23:54	TEttinger	Yesod?
23:54	rovar	then I gouged out my eyes
23:54	bitemyapp	rovar: I can at least understand WAI and Scotty.
23:54	rovar	scotty is great
23:54	bitemyapp	because uh, you know, fuck that noise.
23:54	rovar	I am big fan
23:55	rovar	if you're doing math in a RESTful interface, Scotty will be your friend :)
23:55	bitemyapp	rovar: well I'm exposing an analytics service over REST.
23:55	rovar	me, I'm writing a collaborative MUD against a graph database, NFW I'm doing this in haskell.
23:55	bitemyapp	rovar: why "math"?
23:55	rovar	i just meant pure code
23:56	rovar	all math is pure code and pure code is math
23:56	rovar	true story
23:56	bitemyapp	rovar: I don't see why a collaborative MUD couldn't be done in Haskell :P
23:56	bitemyapp	rovar: also why a graph db?
23:56	bitemyapp	rovar: in my case I'm generating queries against ElasticSearch.
23:56	rovar	most maps are shaped like graphs
23:56	rovar	seemed like a good idea
23:56	TEttinger	indeed
23:56	TEttinger	most pathfinding algos work well on graphs too
23:56	rovar	Titanium is actually very nice so far
23:57	rovar	TEttinger: it's almost as if they were made for graphs..
23:57	TEttinger	haha
23:58	TEttinger	my decidedly not-M-U-yes-D game uses dijkstra for pathfinding and AI
23:58	TEttinger	I have yet to do a proper version over a graph, mine uses arrays
23:59	bitemyapp	TEttinger: probably faster anyway :P
23:59	arrdem	4/0...
23:59	TEttinger	bitemyapp, err just remembered, it actually uses transient vectors