#clojure – 2013-12-29

2013-12-29

00:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: I might need to get in on your win-streak.
00:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: down?
00:00	arrdem	bitemyapp: I can do one more
00:00	Tolstoy	dnolen: regarding your recent changes on OM getting rid of the "owner" thing... you mention it's now passed in via the constructor. Are you going back to no-local-component-state?
00:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: my microphone isn't showing up in mumble or in Ubuntu in general.
00:06	arrdem	bitemyapp: ....funky
00:07	bitemyapp	arrdem: trying to decide if one game is worth reboot.
00:07	arrdem	heh. if not I'll just hit the sack. you're keeping me up :P
00:07	arrdem	scrub that./
00:07	arrdem	executive decision, I'm sleeping.
00:07	arrdem	g'night
00:07	bitemyapp	arrdem: good idea. Cheers.
00:29	yedi_	anyone know of any typeahead / autocomplete libs for cljs?
00:31	yedi_	nvm apparently dnolen has a blogpost where he builds one
00:34	dnolen	Tolstoy: what od you mean?
00:34	dnolen	s/od/do
00:35	dnolen	Tolstoy: I just want to remove pointless duplication from the life cycle protocol methods
00:35	Tolstoy	dnolen: In my practice app, I used the "owner" stuff to hold form data (similar to your todo example).
00:35	Tolstoy	dnolen: But now the protocols don't take owner.
00:35	Tolstoy	dnolen: So now I don't know where it is. ;)
00:36	dnolen	Tolstoy: the component fn takes it
00:36	dnolen	Tolstoy: the function that makes your component
00:37	Tolstoy	dnolen: Your todo app example still has those params.
00:37	Tolstoy	dnolen: Is it an additional param, or just the first param (which is my app state)?
00:37	dnolen	Tolstoy: yeah was on a plane and didn't get a chance to update TodoMVC
00:37	dnolen	Tolstoy: updated now
00:37	Tolstoy	Ah, second param.
00:40	Tolstoy	Cool, works. ;)
01:24	Tolstoy	If you want to dismiss a form, how do you tell the owning component not to "build" it anymore?
01:31	dnolen	Tolstoy: just don't put it in the dom
01:32	Tolstoy	dnolen: That was my plan, but when the user hits "cancel" I can put a message in a core/async channel, but I'm not sure how to propagate that back to the "thing" that renders it.
01:32	Tolstoy	dnolen: Except to have the presence/absence be in the "state" object.
01:32	dnolen	Tolstoy: the parent component can pass a communication channel down the tree
01:32	dnolen	Tolstoy: if you look at TodoMVC that's how todo deletion works
01:33	dnolen	Tolstoy: so you pass down a cancel channel, if you ever get anything off of it you can set the state on the parent
01:33	Tolstoy	dnolen: Hm.
01:34	Tolstoy	dnolen: Ah, and put it in a go form so as not to block rendering. Great!
02:02	rhg135	I had
02:02	rhg135	oops
02:02	rhg135	wrong window lol
03:41	yedi_	can you use alt! within a function (so not explicitly within a go loop)
03:50	shaunxcode	"Makes a single choice between one of several channel operations, as if by alts!, returning the value of the result expr corresponding to the operation completed. Must be called inside a (go ...) block."
04:18	yedi_	does anyone know why adding print statements seem to get these map functions to work? https://gist.github.com/yedi/8168773
04:18	yedi_	kinda baffling me
04:29	TEttinger	yedi_, try changing map to mapv and remove the print
04:29	TEttinger	is the problem still resolved?
04:30	TEttinger	mapv does not return a lazy sequence
04:30	TEttinger	map does
04:30	TEttinger	print realizes lazy sequences...
04:31	yedi_	ahh makes sense, that did the trick
04:31	yedi_	(inc TEttinger)
04:31	lazybot	⇒ 9
04:31	yedi_	long overdue
04:32	TEttinger	sustenance!
05:08	Ayey_	I'm trying to read a file line by line, and then add thoses lines to some kind of collection. This is what i came up with http://hastebin.com/minaranota.lisp (It is clojure).. I'm stil new to clojure and properly stuck in some imperativ thought process..
05:13	ivan	Ayey_: you can replace the entire doseq with (vec (line-seq rdr))
05:13	Clome	ayey_: why do not you use slurp to read the whole file and then use split on a newline
05:13	ivan	since the vector will be returned, you can get rid of the let
05:14	magnars	Ayey_: if you're sticking all the lines in memory anyway, you can just (str/split (slurp file-path) #"\n")
05:14	magnars	Ayey_: where str/ is clojure.string/
05:15	ivan	why do protocol methods in clojurescript start with a -?
05:16	magnars	Ayey_: the reason to use with-open and line-seq is to run over the file contents without "holding onto the head", to avoid keeping the entire file in memory.
05:17	shock_one	Hi, guys. I'm trying to get a bunch of GET requests asynchronously using http-kit, but execution stops before all the callbacks are called. Is there a way to wait until all of them are finished? Here's the code (the commented out chunk work well, but is too slow) https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f18480ccb99b90abe30a
05:17	Ayey_	Ahh, thank you guys for all the soultions
05:19	magnars	shock_one: sounds like the poster child example for clojure.core.async
05:20	amalloy	magnars, shock_one: that -main has no effect at all, aside from creating an unrealized lazy sequence. http-kit is already async, there's no pressing need to introduce core.async
05:20	ivan	somewhere in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enwIIGzhahw I saw an example of core.async + httpkit
05:20	amalloy	shock_one: (dorun (map ...)) would probably do all the work, although i'm not sure of http-kit's details
05:23	magnars	amalloy: you say http-kit is already async, but isn't the idea behind core.async to help you work effectively with async code?
05:24	amalloy	magnars: i mean, yes, but currently he's at the "working at all" stage, not "working effectively". there is no place in that code where core.async would make anything easier
05:25	magnars	thanks for clarifying :)
05:25	shock_one	amalloy: nope, doesn't work. The thing is that dorun finishes execution sooner than any of the requests get a chance to be finished. Are you familiar with node.js? This http-kit callbacks look exactly like node's except that node automatically tracks callbacks and doesn't exit the process before the callbacks counter is 0.
05:29	shock_one	Essentially the question is how would I know that all the callbacks are executed.
05:31	amalloy	i dunno how http-hit manages its callbacks. it may have some mechanism for doing this, or you can roll one yourself with promises or something
05:31	amalloy	(or, indeed, core.async channels)
06:11	shock_one	Here's how I managed to do that. Any suggestions how to improve this code? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/74d26af46b69add418c6
06:18	amalloy	it's easier if you just create 200 promises and block on each of them in turn
06:32	shock_one	But what if the 3rd request is finished before the 1st? I'll have to wait for the 1st even though I could meanwhile do some useful work.
06:35	shock_one	Actually I tried that. The time difference is huge, about 100 times.
06:40	shock_one	On the server it gets 1000 requests just instantly, but if I increase the number to, say, 100000, I get an error "BindException java.net.BindException: Cannot assign requested address". I believe it's because I don't have enough open ports. Is there a way to open sockets intelligently — without exceeding the port range?
06:45	Glenjamin	shock_one: i don't know about a built-in way, but you could create an outgoing connection pool abstraction, and have it catch those errors and wait for an existing connection to complete before doing more
06:50	alex_batsuev	Hello
06:50	alex_batsuev	Could you please suggest best tutorials/book for learning clojure? :)
06:56	hyPiRion	http://www.clojurebook.com/
06:57	alex_batsuev	thx
07:29	jph-	is there a way to break out of while true?
07:29	jph-	oh
07:29	jph-	sorry thats stupid q
07:33	JanxSpirit	anyone familiar with composure routes?
07:33	JanxSpirit	compojure
07:57	Maruinslun	I did not expect this many people to be in here.
07:59	jph-	anyone familiar with working with udp responses
07:59	jph-	im trying to decode a udp response, but i need to wait till it completes... which is kinda hard with udp
08:01	ivan	in general you build a reliable protocol on top of udp to handle most of your data
08:01	Maruinslun	Yup.
08:04	ivan	you almost certainly need a good understanding of how TCP works
08:06	ivan	are you working with an existing UDP service that has zero docs or a single proprietary client or something?
08:09	jph-	ivan, my current approach is to stuff response into a future udp receiver
08:09	jph-	then to do a try block to decode the received udp data
08:09	jph-	if it dies because incomplete
08:09	jph-	recur
08:09	jph-	and concat prior data with next data
08:09	jph-	and try to decode again
08:10	ivan	I guess you might have to do that if it's the only way to do it
08:10	jph-	yeh
08:10	jph-	theres no "EOF" equiv with what i'm working with
08:10	jph-	but if it decodes properly, that's good enough for me
08:10	jph-	heh
08:10	jph-	soi just keep reading data, building up the received data and attempting to decode till it works
08:11	ivan	I feel like that might go into an endless loop if you lose a packet and never finish a read
08:11	ivan	endless because you get more packets from a subsequent response
08:14	ivan	anyway, watch out because any packet can get lost or reordered
08:15	ivan	if possible try to talk some sense into whoever is running this UDP service
08:27	jph-	ivan, yep, thankfully i can smack the udp service dev around
08:27	ivan	most people choose UDP for no good reason
08:27	jph-	heh
08:27	jph-	this is for admin interface to a network service
08:27	ivan	demand some framed TCP data or something
08:27	jph-	i dont really think that aspect needs udp
08:28	jph-	especially since 9/10 you'll be connecting to service running on localhost
09:16	s0x	hey guys, is there a way to unset a defmulti in repl? atm its kind of a hazzle to play around with multimethods using lighttable, cause im not able to overwrite it and therefore have to define new methods all the time
09:17	s0x	or even better, does anyone know how to reset the lighttable repl results
09:19	hyPiRion	s0x: (.removeMethod multifn dispatch-value)
09:20	hyPiRion	so if you do (defmulti foo identity) and (defmethod foo 10 [_] 11), then (.removeMethod foo 10) would remove the method
09:20	s0x	actually not one implementation but the mutlimethod itself
09:25	s0x	oh well ... i've got the one (ns-unmap ns 'foo) will do the job
09:25	s0x	still i dont see the point why lighttable does not allow to reset the repl over all ... anyway ...
09:26	hyPiRion	Time consuming
09:29	sherbondy	s0x: what about in the "connect" tab? Is that not the kind of reset you're talking about?
09:30	sherbondy	and maybe https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace would be helpful for what you're trying to do? If you find the need to "reset" things, as you say
09:32	s0x	sherbondy: well, i was searching for a conventient way like calling just a command rather then do a disconnect ... and add a new connection again
09:33	s0x	sherbondy: well that think looks quite interesting ... still would prefere a easy and fast way to do it provided by the ide
09:33	s0x	i dont need it for production but for testing
09:42	sherbondy	s0x: I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to achieve, but you may well find the repl part of tools.namespace to be just what you're looking for. Seems like you could use it for testing. You might enjoy reading this post too if you have a few minutes: http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
09:50	s0x	sherbondy: thx for that one :)
09:51	s0x	well, i was just wondering how to reset the running repl in lighttable or codewise ... using this workflow i'd actually avoid it :p
11:20	patrickod	I'm having issues with the home and end keys in the leiningen repl on OS X. googling hasn't helped much. Has anyone here had a similar issue?
11:21	justin_smith	patrickod: what are they doing?
11:21	patrickod	instead of working they both input a ~ character
11:22	justin_smith	lein repl should be using readline, so likely the answer is in your readline config
11:22	justin_smith	or the configuration of the terminal you are using
11:22	justin_smith	I assume home and end work in regular bash?
11:22	patrickod	actually, it's only present when the repl session is in tmux.
11:22	justin_smith	do you have rlwrap installed?
11:22	patrickod	yeah so this is an issue introduced by tmux I think. lein repl in iTerm works as expected
11:23	justin_smith	lein repl uses it if it is available
11:23	diadara	I have just started with clojure koans, is there a way to run lein koans run directly from emacs ?
11:23	justin_smith	and it should handle these things as well as bash does
11:23	patrickod	nope I don't have it. but I'll install it now and see if it helps
11:23	justin_smith	rlwrap is also going to be better than the fake java based readline
11:23	justin_smith	in general
11:24	patrickod	hrmm rlwrap still causes issues.
11:24	justin_smith	diadara: well, you can open M-x eshell and lein run from there
11:24	justin_smith	patrickod: oh, odd
11:24	patrickod	justin_smith yeah going to search around and see if it's a known tmux issue
11:25	justin_smith	patrickod: I wonder if is a tmux termcap issue
11:25	justin_smith	yeah, jynx
11:25	patrickod	hrmm could be an issue with my TERM variable
11:27	justin_smith	diadara: emacs has a few ways to host another process, eshell is a pretty easy way to do it. Maybe cider has something fancier by now? I am still using the outdated nrepl because upgrading from slime to nrepl was such a pain I don't feel like repeating it quite yet
11:27	diadara	justin_smith: emacs question,but the path will be different right ?
11:28	justin_smith	diadara: by default the current directory is the directory of the current window's buffer
11:28	justin_smith	so if you start eshell while looking at project.clj, it will be in the right place to run lein
11:28	justin_smith	or you can use cd to put it in the right place
11:29	diadara	justin_smith: aah, just found projectile-lein-test-cmd variable !
11:30	justin_smith	OK. I don't use projectile. Good luck.
11:48	danneu	Does anyone have a Clojurescript workflow in Emacs that's better than copy and pasting cljs source into clojure.browser.repl?
11:49	danneu	I really need to level up my workflow
11:49	CaptainLex	I'm having an astonishing issue. Whenever I read a time from my Postgres database, the time that gets read in is 12 hours off of the time in the database. Have anyone ever encountered a similar issue?
11:50	justin_smith	CaptainLex: what OS?
11:50	justin_smith	and by any chance are you in a time zone that is 12 hours away from GMT?
11:52	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Arch Linux. Haha nope, I'm in CST. But wait a minute, I've misunderstood the problem. The time read in from the database is in UTC, and represents the real time from the database. However, when clj-time displays the time, it gets the hours rights but the AM/PM wrong
11:52	CaptainLex	That is to say
11:53	justin_smith	CaptainLex: maybe it is an issue with your TZ config - or how the jvm understands your tz config
11:53	justin_smith	like a -5 where there should be a +5
11:53	CaptainLex	19:30 CST in the datavase -> 03:30 UTC immediately after reading -> 07:30 CST after to-local-date-time
11:54	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Perhaps! I've never been one to bother much with my localization settings
11:54	justin_smith	I can imagine flipping the sign on a timezone offset would be an easy mistake to make
11:54	danneu	CaptainLex: is it possible that you're just using the wrong clj-time formatter?
11:55	justin_smith	##(System/getProperty "user.timezone")
11:55	lazybot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission user.timezone read)
11:56	justin_smith	anyway, what does the above show you CaptainLex ?
11:56	justin_smith	(System/getProperty "user.timezone") --> "America/Los_Angeles"
11:58	justin_smith	parsimony wise, your jvm is more likely to be misconfigured than your system, and your system being misconfigured is more likely than your system clock being wrong, and all of thsoe are more likely than the libraries being broken - that is my hunch at least
11:58	CaptainLex	US/Central
11:59	CaptainLex	Oh wait a minute
11:59	CaptainLex	Lemme test a thing real quick
12:00	justin_smith	what does date --utc output in your shell?
12:02	ddellacosta	danneu: these days I simply leave lein cljsbuild auto running, to be honest. But I thought you could set up a repl in emacs using cider + austin, and send to your running CLJS repl that way. I could be mistaken, but it would be worth looking into.
12:07	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Sun Dec 29 17:01:55 UTC 2
12:08	justin_smith	CaptainLex: so it looks like your timezone setting, and your OS time setting are both correct
12:08	justin_smith	is the postgres server local?
12:10	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Yes it is. I'm currently trying to see if I'm misunderstanding clj-time.local
12:11	ddellacosta	danneu: for the record, just tried setting it up now, seems to work!
12:11	danneu	ddellacosta: thanks, austin looks good
12:12	ddellacosta	danneu: cheers.
12:13	justin_smith	CaptainLex: by any chance is central time currently GMT-6 ?
12:14	justin_smith	if so applying the offset twice would replicate your error
12:14	CaptainLex	justin_smith: My understanding is that it is
12:14	CaptainLex	So it would!
12:14	CaptainLex	Hmmmm
12:15	justin_smith	CaptainLex: I am going out for breakfast, I will be back later, but likely you will have figured this out by then
12:15	justin_smith	bbl
12:16	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Enjoy! And thank you for help so far!
12:20	mrhanky	can anybody give me a hint how i can get all keys from js localstorage in clojurescript?
12:20	mrhanky	i tried (for), but this wont work
12:23	justin_smith	mrhanky: any chance keys would work?
12:23	justin_smith	or is it not a compatible structure?
12:24	justin_smith	,(keys {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
12:24	clojurebot	(:a :c :b)
12:25	mrhanky	justin_smith, like this?
12:25	mrhanky	(def storage (.-localStorage js/window))
12:25	mrhanky	(for [x (keys storage)] x)
12:26	mrhanky	#<Error: No protocol method ISeqable.-seq defined for type object: [object Storage]>
12:27	Glenjamin	mrhanky: it seems like it has a weird interface
12:27	Glenjamin	see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3138564/looping-through-localstorage-in-html5-and-javascript
12:28	mrhanky	i don't get it
12:28	mrhanky	-it +how to get this into clojure(script)
12:29	dnolen	mrhanky: if you want standard library fns to work on Storage you need to extend it to the right protocols
12:29	Glenjamin	i'm not great at clojurescript, but if you can get a protocol for localStorage, you could implement Seq on it
12:30	Glenjamin	but you basically need to call key a bunch of times
12:30	dnolen	mrhanky: otherwise use the JS apis
12:31	dnolen	mrhanky: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5410820/how-can-i-show-all-the-localstorage-saved-variables
12:32	Glenjamin	I'm seeing in this when using "lein ring uberjar" - If you only need AOT for your uberjar, consider adding :aot :all into your:uberjar profile instead.
12:32	Glenjamin	does anyone know where i can find more info about whether this is a good idea?
12:45	mrhanky	i got it: (for [x (range 0 (.-length (.-localStorage js/window)))] (.key storage x))
12:48	mrhanky	is anybody here using intellij idea for clj/cljs dev?
12:49	CaptainLex	Isn't that the one where the extension is deprecated or some such a business? Or is that Netbeans?
12:51	CaptainLex	justin_smith: The problem was a misunderstanding on my part on how to display localized times in clj-time
12:51	mrhanky	at the moment there are two extensions for intellij, the "la clojure" from jetbrains and theres a new one which im currently using, called "cursive". there will be an clojure IDE based on intellij community edition and cursive
12:52	patrickod	https://github.com/paraseba/lein-reload how would I go about using this with leiningen 2? I've tried adding a :dev profile with this listed as a dependency
12:52	patrickod	but running lein with-profile dev interactive doesn't work.
12:53	patrickod	sorry if this is has an obvious answer that I'm missing, I'm new to clojure and the differences between leiningen 1 and 2 are tripping me up a bit it would seem
12:56	hyPiRion	patrickod: that project seems so old that it uses things no longer within leiningen (lein interactive)
12:56	patrickod	hyPiRion hrmm ok. I found another plugin that does something similar on the leiningin plugins page
12:56	hyPiRion	Is the use case you need autotesting?
12:57	hyPiRion	ah, okay
12:57	patrickod	nope it was that when editing code and using a repl I'd like the ability to reload the files that have been changed
12:57	patrickod	or have the repl do it itself
12:57	hyPiRion	ah
13:16	JasonFelice	Say I want to make a gnuplot-type graph in Clojure. What's the best way to do this?
13:21	rovar	JasonFelice: probably load a graphing library in java
13:21	rovar	also maybe check out http://incanter.org/
13:53	bbloom	dnolen: lol i love that om has an "ecosystem" already, heh
13:58	justin_smith	CaptainLex: glad you got it sorted out
13:58	CaptainLex	justin_smith: Thanks! And now of course on to a new problem, as per usual :P
13:59	justin_smith	in the tooling, or your code?
13:59	CaptainLex	justin_smith: In my code. It's in a different domain, though. It's about reading in parameters via compojure where multiple values correspond to one key
14:07	marcopolo`	anyone use vim with the solarized theme?
14:19	codelahoma	marcopolo`: sometimes. Why?
14:21	marcopolo`	codelahoma: The color of the parens are red, which are also the color of mismatched parens :(
14:21	marcopolo`	codelahoma: So I'm messing around with colors right now, did you find a solution?
14:25	Glenjamin	Hi guys, for a web app, would you generally recommend using a variety of small services, or one "big" process?
14:25	codelahoma	marcopolo`: I use rainbow_parentheses.vim with the colors suggested here: http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/programming-clojure-with-vim-2013-edition
14:25	Glenjamin	eg. Should sessions be stored in memory, or put in an external store
14:26	Glenjamin	likewise for a queue, delayed jobs, etc etc
14:26	codelahoma	marcopolo`: Red still shows up, but I also use paredit so a mismatch is pretty rare. :-)
14:26	bbloom	Glenjamin: sessions should almost always be stored exclusively in cookies...
14:26	Glenjamin	i've always deferred such things to external processes, but i've noticed some clojure people just throwing these into an atom - which i guess is similar to how jboss stuff would be done?
14:27	Glenjamin	bbloom: there's an http overhead tradeoff there, but i take your point - that may not be the best example
14:27	bbloom	Glenjamin: how many users are you expecting to have on day one? And what about on day 100? day 1000?
14:27	Glenjamin	<100
14:28	bbloom	then the correct answer is single process. full stop
14:28	bbloom	Glenjamin: also, i have an article for just this purpose: http://www.brandonbloom.name/blog/2013/06/26/slurp-and-spit/
14:28	bbloom	:-)
14:28	Glenjamin	i'm more worried about losing things during a restart than scalability
14:28	bbloom	my post covers that too
14:28	patrickod	is there an idiomatic way to use if-let and destructuring when a function returns a vector?
14:29	bbloom	,(if-let [[x y] [5 10]] true false)
14:29	clojurebot	true
14:29	bbloom	,(if-let [[x y] [5 10]] x false)
14:29	clojurebot	5
14:29	bbloom	,(if-let [[x y] nil] x false)
14:29	clojurebot	false
14:29	bbloom	patrickod: is that what you want?
14:29	Glenjamin	patrickod: are you wanting the if to check one of the items in the vector?
14:29	marcopolo`	codelahoma: thanks for that link!
14:30	patrickod	Glenjamin I'm looking to check teh first item in the vector
14:30	Bronsa	,(if-let [[a b] []] true false) ;; this screwed me over more than once
14:30	clojurebot	true
14:30	Glenjamin	yeah
14:30	marcopolo`	codelahoma: I can't handle paredit though, sometimes I just need to delete a paren, and it doesn't let me
14:30	justin_smith	marcopolo`: that is what M-w is for
14:30	patrickod	,(if-let [[a b] [false {:error "Not valid"}] "Valid" "Not valid")
14:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
14:30	Glenjamin	bbloom: oh, i just remembered - i'm currently running on heroku
14:30	patrickod	,(if-let [[a b] [false {:error "Not valid"}]] "Valid" "Not valid")
14:30	clojurebot	"Valid"
14:31	marcopolo`	justin_smith: on emacs? I'm using vim, what's M-w do?
14:31	patrickod	Glenjamin in the case above I'm looking to get "not valid". Make sense?
14:31	Glenjamin	yeah
14:31	justin_smith	marcopolo`: delete region
14:31	Glenjamin	if think you'll need a custom macro
14:32	patrickod	hmm not a problem. I can just forego error messages at the moment
14:32	bbloom	Glenjamin: you should still read my article. the same ideas apply to non-filesystem situations
14:32	Glenjamin	bbloom: the advice seems solid, although it feels a bit "eggs in basket", which habit forces me away from
14:32	bbloom	Bronsa: yeah, clojure's destructuring is not pattern matching, until if-let and when-let were introduced, then they became broken pattern matching :-P
14:32	Glenjamin	but that me be habit rather than experience
14:32	Glenjamin	*may be
14:33	justin_smith	marcopolo`: d`<m> would be the vim equivalent iirc
14:33	justin_smith	with <m> being a specific letter mark
14:33	codelahoma	marcopolo`: to each there own, but I'd suggest giving the full paredit help file a read before writing it off entirely.
14:33	bbloom	Glenjamin: i'd rather have all my eggs in one simple basket then spread the same amount of wicker out between many baskets
14:33	Glenjamin	seems reasonable
14:33	bbloom	Glenjamin: backups. they are useful :-P
14:34	justin_smith	marcopolo`: that is to say, go to start of area to delete, 'ma', go to other end of area to delte 'd`a'
14:34	Glenjamin	mm, intuition tells me know - but i can't see a logical reason not to just serialise to disk
14:34	justin_smith	unless vim paraedit is much stricter than emacs paredit is
14:34	Glenjamin	s/know/no/
14:34	bbloom	Glenjamin: your intuition has been poisoned by years of frameworks
14:34	Glenjamin	mm
14:35	codelahoma	marcopolo`: for a single character, <Ctrl-V, d> works for me, but that might be a paredit bug.
14:35	Bronsa	bbloom: it's just.. too tempting to expect if-let to return false in that case. ofc it would be wrong and it's just a matter of calling `seq` on [], but it still fools me sometimes
14:35	Glenjamin	so given that i have a read-only filesystem, any suggestions for what simple storage mechanism i should use for serialising?
14:36	bbloom	,(when-let [[x x] [5 10] x) ; Bronsa: This is the one that got me early on
14:36	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
14:36	bbloom	,(when-let [[x x] [5 10]] x) ; Bronsa: This is the one that got me early on
14:36	clojurebot	10
14:39	marcopolo`	codelahoma: I used paredit for a month, and I can find ways around deleting a specific paren (I think I did x or r<space>), but yeah I wasn't sold on it. I did love the slurping/barfing. So I'm using vim-sexp now, which doesn't modify insert behavior
14:40	marcopolo`	codelahoma: I tweaked the colors of errors to make them more visible in the vim solarized theme: https://github.com/MarcoPolo/vim-colors-solarized
14:40	codelahoma	marcopolo`: I'm less than a month into it, so maybe I'll become disenchanted as well.
14:41	Glenjamin	damn disconnect, so - what's the next simplest thing to a filesystem for spit/splurping EDN? I'm thinking maybe redis?
14:41	marcopolo`	codelahoma: I've been using vim-sexp with Tim Pope's mappings (https://github.com/tpope/vim-sexp-mappings-for-regular-people) and I'm pretty happy with it so far
14:42	marcopolo`	justin_smith: I feel like I should learn emacs enough to try out it's paredit. I hear it's much better than vim's implementation
14:44	justin_smith	marcopolo`: it's nothing to be undertaken lightly, but having learned vim you probably have some idea of that.
14:55	marcopolo`	justin_smith: yeah, haha. On second thought, I might just ask my emacs friends to demo it :P
15:01	patrickod	what are strings encased in #{} ? are they special types?
15:01	patrickod	they're sets?
15:01	bbloom	,(class #{"like this?"}) ; pretty easy to figure out at the repl!
15:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
15:02	patrickod	bbloom wasn't aware of the class method. neat :) thanks
15:02	bbloom	but yeah, #{} is just set notation
15:02	bbloom	it's often used for membership predicates too:
15:03	bbloom	,(filter #{:bar} [:foo :bar :baz])
15:03	clojurebot	(:bar)
15:03	bbloom	,(filter #{:foo baz} [:foo :bar :baz])
15:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: baz in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:03	bbloom	,(filter #{:foo :baz} [:foo :bar :baz])
15:03	clojurebot	(:foo :baz)
15:03	bbloom	yes, gfredericks is right. beware the nil/false edge case :-P
15:05	patrickod	hrmm. not sure I understand the edge case. isn't that what you'd expect given that :bar isn't present in the test set?
15:05	bbloom	,(filter #{false} [true false true])
15:05	clojurebot	()
15:05	bbloom	patrickod: that explain it?
15:06	patrickod	ah that does :) thanks
15:06	bbloom	gfredericks: language design is, kinda inherently, weird :-)
15:08	Wild_Cat	bbloom: wait, I don't understand why this example doesn't work.
15:08	bbloom	Wild_Cat: in your repl, experiment with using sets as functions, then look at (source filter)
15:09	jonasen	anyone seen the error 'Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size' when evaluating (C-x C-e) an ns-form in Cider? It works if I pretty-print the result (using C-c C-p)
15:09	Wild_Cat	bbloom: oh, wait, (#{a} a) returns a, right?
15:10	bbloom	Wild_Cat: i dunno (evil grin) why don't you try it with clojurebot?
15:10	Wild_Cat	bbloom: I just tried it in a REPL on my local box, it does :p
15:10	Wild_Cat	...which I find kind of weird, but I'm sure there's a good reason for that, kind of like how and/or in Python always return one of their operands
15:11	bbloom	Wild_Cat: the solution to the edge case is to explicitly use contains?
15:11	bbloom	,(filter #(contains? #{false} %) [true false true])
15:11	clojurebot	(false)
15:11	Wild_Cat	yeah, figures.
15:11	bbloom	clojure defines sets to be a map of keys to themselves
15:11	bbloom	which is a pretty useful definition in many cases
15:12	bbloom	it's common to see javascript programs do things like {foo: true, bar: true} to emulate sets
15:12	bbloom	but you may also see {foo: "foo", bar: "bar"} :-)
15:14	Wild_Cat	bbloom: makes sense. Although sets don't implement java.util.Map
15:14	gfredericks	bbloom: I've never heard an argument that it's more useful than being a true predicate
15:15	gfredericks	presumably 90% of use of sets as functions is predicate-like
15:15	gfredericks	so by returning the item we're incurring an edge case and gaining something that makes the edge case worth it?
15:15	bbloom	gfredericks: i'd have to think about that
15:16	gfredericks	certainly in pure math sets and predicates are often interchangeable
15:16	bbloom	gfredericks: seems that scala chooses to implement sets as functions which return booleans
15:17	gfredericks	yeah in my head clojure's approach seems to have something to do with dynamic typing
15:17	Wild_Cat	actually, I think Clojure is the only example I know of sets-as-predicates returning the operand if true.
15:18	gfredericks	but I don't know why I would think that; certainly no straightforward connection there
15:18	gfredericks	it definitely feels weird partly because it's not obviously useful -- calling a set isn't giving you something you don't already have, by definition
15:19	bbloom	gfredericks: not saying this is the reason, but just noting: if sets as functions returned booleans, then there would be no way to use a set where somebody was expecting a map
15:19	bbloom	without wrapping the object & doing delegation
15:19	bbloom	which is what sets do anyway :-P
15:19	bbloom	(sets are built from maps)
15:20	justin_smith	Since keywords and symbols are defined to invoke get when used in the calling position, having the set lookup also be a get is convenient. It reduces the number of cases / semantics to keep track of.
15:20	Wild_Cat	bbloom: If they return booleans, then sets-as-functions are analog to {object: bool} maps, aren't they?
15:20	justin_smith	and of course get should return the matching item in the set, if present
15:20	gfredericks	using a set where a map is expected feels contrived to me; I don't think I've ever done it
15:20	bbloom	Wild_Cat: yeah
15:20	gfredericks	,(get #{42} 42)
15:20	clojurebot	42
15:20	gfredericks	huh;
15:21	gfredericks	justin_smith: that's an interesting point
15:21	bbloom	gfredericks: so one other thing worth realizing is that the object returned need only be =, not identical? to the invoke argument
15:21	justin_smith	what else would you expect get on a set to do?
15:21	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah I thought of that; some interesting normalization possibilities I suppose
15:21	gfredericks	but every convenience pointed out seems a lot more marginal than having a proper predicate
15:22	gfredericks	justin_smith: I didn't know it would work at all :)
15:22	justin_smith	fair enough
15:22	bbloom	gfredericks: agreed. just thinking aloud
15:22	gfredericks	,(get :foo 98)
15:22	clojurebot	nil
15:22	gfredericks	,(get (Object.) 42)
15:22	clojurebot	nil
15:22	justin_smith	it keeps things unified - that way both maps and sets in the calling position do the same thing as well
15:22	gfredericks	bbloom: thanks for the thinks :)
15:23	justin_smith	,((juxt #{42} {42 :secret}) 42)
15:23	clojurebot	[42 :secret]
15:23	gfredericks	yeah I guess all the IFns that aren't Fns are doing get, eh?
15:23	justin_smith	unless I am forgetting some case, yeah
15:23	bbloom	gfredericks: the other thing to consider is uniformity with contains? vs get
15:23	bbloom	gfredericks: calling a data structure as a function is a shorthand for get, not contains?
15:23	bbloom	,([5 10 15] 1)
15:23	clojurebot	10
15:24	bbloom	,(get #{5 10} 5)
15:24	clojurebot	5
15:24	gfredericks	oh man except for vectors
15:24	gfredericks	,([] nil)
15:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
15:24	gfredericks	,(get [] nil)
15:24	clojurebot	nil
15:24	justin_smith	,(get [5 10 15] 1)
15:24	clojurebot	10
15:24	bbloom	well here's the one that burns EVERYBODY:
15:24	bbloom	,(contains? [5 10 15] 10)
15:24	clojurebot	false
15:24	bbloom	b/c contains? operates on keys, not values
15:24	gfredericks	well that's just naming
15:25	bbloom	heh, yeah
15:25	bbloom	should be has-key?
15:25	gfredericks	totes
15:25	dnolen	bbloom: heh yeah, I suppose it fills a perceived gap?
15:25	gfredericks	has there been any discussion about to what extent breaking changes are tolerated in clojure 2.0?
15:25	gfredericks	would be interesting to know what's worth fantasizing about
15:26	justin_smith	and what people want when they usually use contains? on a vector would be has-value?
15:26	justin_smith	s/usually/naively
15:26	bbloom	gfredericks: just guessing: these things would not change. more internal things would change, like interfaces->protocols
15:26	bbloom	gfredericks: and namespacing of primitives :-P
15:26	bbloom	gfredericks: frankly, i would be surprised if a 2.0 ever happens
15:26	gfredericks	I want the conj edge case removed
15:26	bbloom	which edge case?
15:26	gfredericks	,(conj {} {3 4})
15:26	clojurebot	{3 4}
15:27	gfredericks	I've never heard any justification for that
15:27	bbloom	bwha? lol
15:27	gfredericks	results in weird things like ##(merge #{} #{})
15:27	lazybot	⇒ #{#{}}
15:27	gfredericks	which bit me yesterday
15:27	gfredericks	(because merge is implemented via the conj edge case)
15:28	justin_smith	woah, that is weird
15:28	gfredericks	I mean merge isn't meant to be used with sets
15:28	gfredericks	but I would've expected something louder to happen :)
15:28	bbloom	,(conj {} {3 4 5 6})
15:28	clojurebot	{5 6, 3 4}
15:28	justin_smith	,(merge #{1} #{3})
15:28	clojurebot	#{1 #{3}}
15:28	bbloom	wtf?
15:29	gfredericks	bbloom: APersistentMap#cons accepts either a pair or a sequence of pairs
15:29	gfredericks	good ole duck-wrapping
15:29	bbloom	yeah, i'm looking at that now
15:29	gfredericks	or unwrapping
15:29	gfredericks	so at some level it was intentional
15:29	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentMap.java#L39-L44
15:29	justin_smith	,(merge #{1 2} #{3 4})
15:29	clojurebot	#{1 2 #{3 4}}
15:29	bbloom	i'm not exactly sure why those few lines are there...
15:29	gfredericks	justin_smith: it's just calling (conj a b)
15:30	justin_smith	yeah, I am reveling in my WTF moment is all
15:30	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah I'd expect a throw there instead, eh?
15:30	gfredericks	I bet we could get a weird type error
15:30	gfredericks	,(conj {} :foo)
15:30	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword {:instance :foo}>
15:30	gfredericks	^ yep
15:30	gfredericks	why on earth would it want an ISeq? :)
15:30	bbloom	ooooh that's what that exception means lol
15:31	bbloom	clojure has lots of little oddities in their polymorphic behavior of the base structures. some of them are actually intentionally, subtle, and quite brilliant. others are just like rich hickey being like "i've made too much awesome stuff, i'll just settle for some stuff being horribly awkward. no biggie"
15:31	bbloom	the only language without weird edge cases is the null language :-)
15:32	gfredericks	yeah I'm sure if he was trying to make a language that anticipated the pain of ten thousand users he would not have finished
15:32	justin_smith	I think brainfuck has a pretty complete semantics
15:32	gfredericks	take yourself too seriously and => analysis paralysis
15:34	gfredericks	one of the major selling points of clojure over other languages is that clojure exists
15:34	bbloom	lol true story
15:40	ddima	gfredericks: but how one develop without an "enterprise architecture/patterns" bible for any given languag? ;)
15:41	yedi	"By default the templates are located relative to the ClassLoader URL." -- how do i find out what/wjere the ClassLoader URL is?
15:41	gfredericks	ddima: by utilizing the Enterprise Architecture/Patterns Hammock
15:42	bbloom	gfredericks: that needs a cartoon lol
15:42	bbloom	i'm seeing a mega tricked out hammock
15:42	bbloom	like with spinners
15:42	gfredericks	ha I like the pun on "pattern"
15:42	gfredericks	also "architecture" if you can make it more building-like
15:49	mandu__	hi guys
15:49	mandu__	I want to make a 2 dimensional data structure
15:49	gfredericks	hi
15:49	mandu__	something like a seq but it can iterate in 2 directions
15:49	justin_smith	mandu__: a seq of seqs?
15:50	mandu__	yeah, that's just not working for me
15:50	gfredericks	using rest and (partial map rest)
15:50	mandu__	it gets too complicated
15:50	justin_smith	because seqs are not associative
15:50	justin_smith	a vector of vectors is a bit more useful
15:50	mandu__	i'm in a (map vector coll) jungle right now
15:51	justin_smith	mandu__: mapv
15:51	mandu__	I want to now implement something like 2dseq
15:51	hyPiRion	Iterate in 2 directions?
15:51	mandu__	yeah...
15:51	mandu__	like instead of doing first and rest
15:51	yedi	anyone with selmer experience know how to find where selmer looks for template files? i know i can explicitly set the resource location, but i don't want to use an absolute path. i would like to use a path relative to where the project is located
15:51	gfredericks	I think everybody has a different concept of what you're talking about
15:51	mandu__	i want to do right and right-rest
15:51	mandu__	and down and down-rest
15:51	justin_smith	zipper
15:51	justin_smith	sounds like you want a zipper
15:52	mandu__	what's that?
15:52	gfredericks	mandu__: what do down and right return?
15:52	mandu__	i'm having trouble explaining it seems
15:52	justin_smith	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.zip/zipper
15:52	mandu__	sorry about that guys
15:52	hyPiRion	no worries
15:52	justin_smith	I don't know if zipper does exactly what you want, but it has operations like down / up / right/ left
15:52	mandu__	i was thinking like a 2-d matrix, but it's a lazy functional data structure
15:53	mandu__	from each cell i can go in not just one (like normal seqs), but two directions
15:53	mandu__	so i can have a map-horizontal
15:53	mandu__	and a map-vertical function, for example
15:53	mandu__	and all the rest of them
15:53	hyPiRion	mandu__: I tend to have a maps of [y x] values for such purposes. Could that be sufficient for your use case?
15:54	mandu__	sorry, can you explain a little, hyPiRion?
15:55	hyPiRion	,(into {} (for [x [0 1 2] y [0 1 2]] [[y x] (+ y x)]))
15:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: y in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:55	gfredericks	o_O
15:56	hyPiRion	magic
15:56	justin_smith	there was a nonbreaking space in your code
15:56	hyPiRion	,(into {} (for [x [0 1 2] y [0 1 2]] [[y x] (+ y x)]))
15:56	justin_smith	two actually
15:56	clojurebot	{[2 1] 3, [1 0] 1, [2 2] 4, [0 0] 0, [1 1] 2, ...}
15:56	hyPiRion	yeah
15:56	gfredericks	hyPiRion: how on earth do you typo a NBS
15:57	justin_smith	there was a variable called y but none called y
15:57	justin_smith	broken IRC clients do things like that
15:57	hyPiRion	mandu__: so the idea is that you have such a structure, and you iterate over x/y-values to perform mappings
15:57	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Norwegian keyboard with strange shortcuts
15:58	hyPiRion	Have a keyboard named Alt Gr. Pressing it while pressing space gives me NBS, and I haven't bothered to unmap
15:58	gfredericks	hyPiRion: that's positively unamerican
15:59	hyPiRion	I also have shortcuts for → π ð ½ «» µ and friends too
15:59	gfredericks	why do you hate democracy
15:59	hyPiRion	lol
15:59	mandu__	justin_smith think zipper kinda looks like what i want. But i can't make much sense of that doc
16:01	mandu__	hyPiRion, ah, that's actually a pretty great idea
16:01	mocker	Ok, why does (= (list :a :b :c) [:a :b :c]) ; => true
16:01	gfredericks	(->> unicode-chars (sort-by utility) (take 10))
16:01	mandu__	use the 2 coordinates as a key...
16:01	gfredericks	mocker: sequential things can compare equal
16:01	mocker	Going through the 4clojure and each individually returns either (:a :b :c) or [:a :b :c]
16:02	hyPiRion	gfredericks: The most useful by far is →
16:02	justin_smith	if they are sequential, and have the same content in the same order, = returns true
16:02	gfredericks	hyPiRion: what do you use it for?
16:02	mandu__	is that pretty standard for keeping multi-demension data in clojure?
16:02	justin_smith	http://www.exampler.com/blog/2010/09/01/editing-trees-in-clojure-with-clojurezip/ mandu__: maybe this link helps?
16:03	hyPiRion	Handy in notes and documents instead of =>. Maybe I just use that often
16:03	gfredericks	mandu__: I've often used nested vectors; get-in and assoc-in work well there; subvec can be okay when you want sub-rectangles
16:03	gfredericks	I've started doing math in org-mode and realized you could do inline latex
16:04	hyPiRion	mandu__: Really depends on use cases
16:04	gfredericks	at one point I rewrote <= as \leq ten times
16:04	hyPiRion	gfredericks: wat, show me
16:04	mocker	gfredericks: Any links where I can read more about? Failing at search terms in google.
16:04	gfredericks	hyPiRion: you can do $3 \leq 5$ for example
16:04	gfredericks	also \begin{equation}
16:05	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it works nicely with html export; I think the X version of emacs can show inline images but I haven't gotten that to work yet
16:05	gfredericks	it wants a `latex` command to shell out to or something
16:05	hyPiRion	gfredericks: oh, so it displays when exporting. I was hoping for the latter case there
16:05	gfredericks	I don't have latex on this computator yet
16:05	justin_smith	mocker: what would you want to read about it? it is how equality in clojure works for anything ordered
16:05	gfredericks	,(doc =)
16:05	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
16:06	gfredericks	mocker: ^ there's the docstring at least
16:06	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I would've died if I hadn't LaTeX on my computer. It's almost more important than Clojure
16:06	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I haven't had homework for a few years
16:07	gfredericks	I've just recently gotten back into some serious math study
16:07	mocker	justin_smith: gfredericks Ahh, it's the 'value/not an identity' part, right?
16:07	mocker	whoops, sorry.
16:07	justin_smith	yeah
16:07	gfredericks	mocker: no that's kind of different
16:07	justin_smith	sorry for what?
16:08	hyPiRion	gfredericks: ah. I do a lot of math equations for work
16:08	gfredericks	the value identity distinction means e.g. two different lists with the same contents are equal
16:08	gfredericks	it doesn't say anything about equality across types
16:08	hyPiRion	gfredericks: "and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent"
16:08	gfredericks	hyPiRion: people pay you money to do equations AND parentheses?
16:08	justin_smith	gfredericks: I think it is pretty closely related - they are not of identical types but have "equal" contents
16:09	gfredericks	justin_smith: the word identity there is talking about platform objects, as respected by the identical? function
16:10	justin_smith	but the two sequences are not = because they are the same, and not because they are the same type, but because the contents are equal
16:11	gfredericks	which types can compare equal isn't really obvious
16:11	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Well, the equations are for AI stuff I realise in Clojure. Like, tricks to manipulate support vector machines and the like
16:12	gfredericks	,(= (list 1 2 3) (sorted-set 1 2 3))
16:12	clojurebot	false
16:12	gfredericks	,(= 72 72.0)
16:12	clojurebot	false
16:12	gfredericks	,(= {42 42} #{42})
16:12	clojurebot	false
16:13	Wild_Cat	quick poll: what's the "right" naming convention for a project that attempts to be a Clojure interface to XXX? clj-xxx, clojure-xxx or simply xxx?
16:14	ddima	gfredericks: is there are rule of thumb or do you just have to know?
16:15	gfredericks	ddima: there aren't many surprises past a few initial principles
16:15	gfredericks	e.g., exact numbers and inexact numbers don't normally compare
16:15	gfredericks	vectors and seqs are probably the most surprising part
16:15	gfredericks	unless you find (not= 42 42.0) surprising
16:15	gfredericks	which a lot of people do, but I think it makes sense
16:17	hyPiRion	Wild_Cat: clj-xxx is the common one
16:17	ddima	never actually had problems so far, I wouldt have expected list/sorted-set and dict/set to be equal, but still thought maybe there's more then I knew so far. yeah, the numbers thing is a little different, but it's ok. no mad about it ;)
16:17	Wild_Cat	hyPiRion: OK, thanks.
16:18	gfredericks	ddima: the numeric thing is virtually never an issue for me, and if it is == exists for the looser behavior
16:18	gfredericks	I bet I have never used ==
16:18	ddima	gfredericks: if you consider that it could be "niminally" the same but only through floating-point rounding/precision
16:18	ddima	though, could be bigdecimal, but still
16:20	gfredericks	,(= 3.0M 3.00M)
16:20	clojurebot	true
16:20	mrhanky	how to use clojure.browser.dom/dombuilder ?
16:20	mrhanky	i want to use clojure.browser.dom to add a <li> to an <ul>
16:22	ddima	gfredericks: well, I meant the fact that some numbers are not representable by floats/doubles, so they could be equal by accident. usually one would compare stuff like this given an epsilon or something, so its not bad to have such a behaviour as a safeguard - that's what I meant
16:22	gfredericks	righto
16:23	gfredericks	I was actually surprised about (= 3.0M 3.00M)
16:23	gfredericks	I thought different precision means not=
16:25	hyPiRion	gfredericks: no, that's for ==
16:25	hyPiRion	,(== 3.0M 3.00M)
16:25	clojurebot	true
16:25	hyPiRion	oh, that must've changed in 1.6 then
16:25	hyPiRion	&(== 3.0M 3.00M)
16:25	lazybot	⇒ false
16:29	Wild_Cat	isn't clojure.data.json part of the "standard" Clojure distribution as of 1.5?
16:30	Wild_Cat	hrmm. My info sucks.
16:49	gfredericks	we don't have a good vocabulary for explaining why clojure.walk and clojure.data.json are different
16:49	gfredericks	it takes like whole sentences
17:01	justin_smith	I like cheshire better than data.json anyway
17:22	Clome	Does requiring or using whole namespaces hider the performance of your application? If so is this even noticeable.
17:25	akhudek	Clome: I would guess that there might be some imperceptible start up cost, but no runtime cost once compiled.
17:26	justin_smith	use has other problems, but the main space cost is paid in full namespace increments, no matter how you make it accessible
17:27	justin_smith	like many things in clojure, usage of space is pretty much ignored, but time cost is optimized (namespaces are hashes to the values defined in them)
17:33	Clome	so basically a namespace is a hashmap and whenever you access something you are doing a hesh kookup?
17:36	akhudek	Clome: only during compile
17:38	Arafangion	RAM is _insanely_ cheap these days, except on phones.
17:39	Clome	does clojure get translated to java or all down to bytecode?
17:39	noncom	why is not (nth) supported on sorted sets? as far as i understand, their elements are fully ordered and (nth) would be perefectly legal?
17:39	noncom	Clome: bytecode
17:40	Clome	akhudek: do you know where can I read more about clojure compilation?
17:40	technomancy	it's technically a field lookup, which the JVM is really good at inlining and optimizing
17:40	Clome	the behind the scene stuff
17:40	noncom	Clome: clojure source?
17:40	akhudek	Clome: source or the dev wiki
17:41	noncom	so why (nth) on sorted sets is not allowed? what am i missing?
17:42	akhudek	noncom: you could do (nth (seq myset) 5)
17:42	akhudek	not sure how heavy seq is for a set
17:42	akhudek	guessing it's pretty lightweight though
17:43	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply sorted-set (repeat 9001 (rand 9000)))) 5000))
17:43	clojurebot	#<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
17:44	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply sorted-set (repeat 9001 (range 9000)))) 5000))
17:44	akhudek	noncom: sets won't have duplicates
17:44	clojurebot	#<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
17:44	noncom	oh
17:44	noncom	i am so stupid
17:44	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply sorted-set (range 9001))) 5000))
17:44	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 52.425151 msecs"\n5000
17:44	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply sorted-set (range 9001))) 5000))
17:44	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 35.489225 msecs"\n5000
17:44	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply sorted-set (range 9001))) 5000))
17:44	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 33.219544 msecs"\n5000
17:45	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply [] (range 9001))) 5000))
17:45	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (21) passed to: PersistentVector>
17:45	noncom	,(time (nth (seq (apply vec (range 9001))) 5000))
17:45	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (21) passed to: core/vec>
17:45	noncom	go to hell
17:45	Clome	,(+ 1 1)
17:45	clojurebot	2
17:46	hyPiRion	noncom: you know, it's possible to private message the bots
17:46	noncom	actually i am pretty lame at IRC
17:46	ddima	also possible to run own repl ;)
17:46	noncom	:)
17:49	noncom	so why (nth) is not allowed on sorted sets? is it a mathematical point or an implementation detail?
17:52	akhudek	noncom: not sure
17:53	bbloom	noncom: has to do with the data structure being used
17:53	akhudek	noncom: mathematically I don't think sets can have order
17:53	bbloom	will be here soon: https://github.com/clojure/data.avl
17:53	Arafangion	Generally, sets do not have an order.
17:53	ddima	sets do not implements any index based operators iirc
17:53	bbloom	yes, but SORTED sets do have an order :-P
17:53	Arafangion	What's a 'sorted set'?
17:53	bbloom	(doc sorted-set)
17:53	clojurebot	"([& keys]); Returns a new sorted set with supplied keys. Any equal keys are handled as if by repeated uses of conj."
17:54	bbloom	there are mathematical models of sorted sets too
17:54	bbloom	see https://github.com/michalmarczyk/avl.clj for sorted map & sets with rank queries
17:54	ddima	(by which I mean java sets, navigatableset etc)
17:55	hyPiRion	noncom: having nth on sorted sets means nodes must track child count, which reduces performance for insertion
17:55	hyPiRion	and removal.
17:55	Arafangion	bbloom: Isn't that just a list, really?
17:55	bbloom	Arafangion: no.
17:55	bbloom	Arafangion: lists can have duplicate entires
17:56	Arafangion	bbloom: With algorithms to detect duplications.
17:56	bbloom	also, a "list" in the data structure sense, ie a Linked List, is a particular type of data structure, as an AVL tree is a particular type of data structure which can be used to implement sorted sets
17:56	bbloom	Arafangion: then you'll just get an inefficient sorted set
17:56	Arafangion	I'm looking for references to set theory and sorting.
17:57	hyPiRion	Arafangion: Mathematically, a sorted set is a list with elements such that a0 < a1 < ... < an
17:57	bbloom	Arafangion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_order_structures_in_mathematics
17:57	bbloom	hyPiRion: it's math. there is always an alternative representation available when convenient :-)
17:57	akhudek	Arafangion: you want to use the keyword "ordered" not "sorted"
17:58	Arafangion	akhudek: Ah, that'd do it. Mathematics do seem to use their own language.
17:58	Arafangion	bbloom: Perfect, that does it.
17:58	hyPiRion	bbloom: Yeah, I guess :p
17:59	bbloom	Arafangion: the word "order" implies that there is a sequence. You can have multiple orderings for any given set. The word "sorted", at least to me, implies that the set itself is ordered, rather than simply having an ordering
17:59	bbloom	clojure has sorted-set and sorted-set-by
17:59	akhudek	Has anyone seen any existing work on SQL synthesis for common entity relation queries?
17:59	Arafangion	bbloom: "Total Order", as referred to on your link.
17:59	Arafangion	akhudek: One moment...
17:59	akhudek	This seems like the realm of ORMs, but really the object mapping part is unnecessary.
18:00	bbloom	Arafangion: not necessarily. you can have a partial ordering for a clojure set, but you'll probably run in to some bugs/edge cases
18:00	akhudek	especially in clojure where maps are natural ways to represent a tuple
18:00	bbloom	,(Math/sign 5)
18:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: sign, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:00	Arafangion	akhudek: Have you seem: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/slindley/papers/practical-theory-of-linq.pdf
18:00	bbloom	ok well assume that function exists
18:00	bbloom	(defn sign [x] (cond (pos? x) 1 (neg? x) -1 :else 0))
18:00	akhudek	Arafangion: no I haven't, thanks!
18:00	Arafangion	akhudek: I have attended one of his presentatiosn on the topic, and while I was unable to apply it to practice (due to a seriously stupid language: Delphi), I was impressed.
18:00	bbloom	now: (sorted-set-by sign)
18:01	bbloom	if you stick some integers in there, you have a partial ordering
18:01	bbloom	there are some mailing list discussions about having a universal total order
18:01	hyPiRion	Don't need partial ordering, even.
18:01	bbloom	but there are problems with that idea
18:02	bbloom	Arafangion: look at http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/Data-Ord.html -- haskell has Ordered types and Orderings as separate concepts
18:03	hyPiRion	,(into (sorted-set-by (fn [a b] (dec (rand-int 3)))) [0 1 2]) ; Don't try this at home
18:03	clojurebot	#{0 2}
18:06	AeroNotix	any books which have a lot of questions/do it yourself sections?
18:07	Raynes	Oh God
18:07	Raynes	I don't remember how to use paredit in Emacs at all.
18:12	tufflax	tpope and others, do you know why vim-fireplace gives the following error message when im trying to eval something? https://www.refheap.com/22283
18:13	Arafangion	bbloom: I wasn't disputing the ability to have them - only the concept in mathematics.
18:13	Arafangion	bbloom: I had no idea that maths itself supported ordered sets.
18:13	bbloom	Arafangion: math supports any idea you can dream up and then convince other math people it is sometimes occasionally useful. even if it's only useful for explaining the paragraph immediately after you invented it
18:14	Arafangion	bbloom: Yes, but I think you know what I meant.
18:15	bbloom	Arafangion: i know exactly what you meant, which is why i was correcting your misconception. at this point, you should pretty much assume that there is a formalism for any offhand thought you've ever had without careful prior research :-)
18:16	Arafangion	bbloom: Point taken. :)
18:18	Glenjamin	is there a good way to work with more than one repl instance at once?
18:19	Glenjamin	hrm, in fact thats not my problem
18:19	Glenjamin	my problem is global state :s
18:21	tufflax	Glenjamin: maybe this is useful to you http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
18:21	Glenjamin	tufflax: that was my starting point
18:21	tufflax	i see
18:21	Glenjamin	thinking about to work my app into that
18:21	Glenjamin	i've got an env var for "force-ssl"
18:22	Glenjamin	my tests require that force-ssl is on, because there's a test for that behaviour
18:22	Glenjamin	but for local dev i leave it off
18:22	Glenjamin	currently i just run an autotest JVM and a dev server JVM
18:22	Glenjamin	but i think a better idea is to have the tests run a separate instance of the app with different config in the same JVM
18:24	noncom	that discussion on sets was interesting and besides answered my question, thanks
18:28	tufflax	Glenjamin: Maybe. I don't know what autotest is and I don't have a lot of tests, but I just use fns in the user namespace to test (and no global state)
18:29	Glenjamin	basically the tests require production settings
18:29	Glenjamin	but the issue is because of how i've implemented my settings abstraction
18:30	tufflax	ok :p
18:30	Glenjamin	i'm planning to switch to https://github.com/stuartsierra/component/ and the reloaded workflow, and i now think the act of refactoring will make the issue disappear
18:34	cjfrisz	Anybody have a good naming convention for variables that represent sets?
18:35	cjfrisz	For instance, I'm used to a variable for a list of a certain type of thing be named "thing*"
18:35	cjfrisz	(without the quotes)
18:35	bbloom	cjfrisz: just use a plural noun & don't try to encode the type unless you need to disambiguate
18:36	cjfrisz	bbloom: sounds good
18:36	Glenjamin	set-of-x if you really need to i guess
18:38	bbloom	cjfrisz: if you need to disambiguate, it's pretty common to add a -set suffix to a singular noun
18:39	cjfrisz	Yeah, though I was thinking of a shorter, one or two character thing
18:39	bbloom	cjfrisz: i've seen single letter prefixes and suffixes in some code, like cakes and vcakes for a seq and vector respectively
18:41	bbloom	cjfrisz: but it's not really important as long as it's a lexical name in a small function. so i might even call vcakes v if it's clear i just need a vector for a small scope
18:53	akhudek	Arafangion: hmm, this paper isn't quite what I was after. After much deliberation on ORMs, I've come to recognize that there is actually a class of simple queries that can benefit from some light sql synthesize. E.g. accessing a single field from a unique row by primary key. The sql for this, though simple, contains a lot of repetition if you write it over and over. At the same time, I deeply dislike ORMs for how much they hide the actual
18:53	akhudek	database. (Plus, there is no 'object mapping' needed in clojure).
18:55	Arafangion	akhudek: The advantage of using the concepts in that paper is that you can write advanced queries in the language, rather than writing SQL itself, and you'll still get just one SQL statement coming out.
18:56	akhudek	Right, but it won't help reduce repetition (and thus errors) for this small class of queries, which is more what I'm after.
18:56	Arafangion	akhudek: Couldn't you write a macro or some sort of function for that?
18:57	akhudek	yes, of course, I'm just trying to see if there is something better that can be done
18:57	akhudek	while avoiding the pitfalls of orms
18:57	Arafangion	akhudek: I wonder the same. ORMs seem nice, but they do seem to result in excessive SQL queries.
18:58	akhudek	plus, they often couple unnecessary features such as DDL and 'object mapping'
18:58	Arafangion	akhudek: The other problem I have with ORMs is that they encourage using the ORM models themselves as the basic data types.
18:59	Arafangion	akhudek: Which embeds the database interaction implementation detail into the rest of the app.
19:01	Arafangion	akhudek: Sometimes I wonder if we've overthought this whole problem, and wonder just what is so bad with having a series of functions in a 'db' namespace, which do all the sql stuff and return the result, using whatever library/framework it chooses, and returning either dictionaries, lists, and/or simple data types. Nice, simple abstraction.
19:03	Arafangion	akhudek: But ORMs often also consider caching.
19:03	akhudek	Arafangion: That's where I'm heading right now.
19:03	akhudek	Arafangion: yeah, another coupling that probably doesn't need to be there.
19:04	akhudek	Arafangion: I've been trying to work out if the functions of an orm can be cleanly decoupled so that we can build composable libraries for them.
19:04	Arafangion	akhudek: I do have to admit, using ORMs have sometimes resulted in seriously efficient implementations. (In terms of dev time) - Despite its warts, I liked django's ORM.
19:05	Arafangion	akhudek: You want to be able to separate your data structures from that of the ORM, and allow serialization/convertibility between them.
19:06	Arafangion	akhudek: You might also want such a DB layer to determine if a particular 'row' has been modified locally (ie, is there any point in saving it?)
19:06	akhudek	Arafangion: So the neat thing about clojure is that you can perfectly express a database tuple as a clojure map. Even the database lit often talks about tuples as maps of column names to values. There is no mismatch in the data model in other words.
19:06	Arafangion	akhudek: And you'd want to do that _without_ a database query.
19:06	Arafangion	akhudek: Hardly unique, I'd expect?
19:07	akhudek	Arafangion: no, but it's not something I've seen any state before.
19:07	akhudek	Arafangion: everyone always talks about data model mismatches.
19:07	akhudek	Arafangion: probably because many main stream languages, although having maps, tend to use objects to store data instead.
19:08	Arafangion	That, imho, is because they're trying to embed the database library itself as a first-class citizen, with objects that directly map to database rows.
19:08	akhudek	Arafangion: you are right about serialization, that is something that would also be handy to be somewhat automated
19:09	Arafangion	And they do not want any implementation details to leak through. If a "property" (ie, column) gets updated, they want that to follow regular, conventional rules. Also with inheritance of classes and all that stuff.
19:09	Arafangion	The mismatch is the implemetnation leaking through the abstraction - imho, it's the wrong abstraction.
19:09	akhudek	I agree.
19:09	dyreshark	i have a function that has side-effects that i want to apply to each element of a list. is (dorun (map my-fn the-list)) the most idiomatic way to do this?
19:09	akhudek	I'd prefer something that doesn't hide the fact that you are working with a database.
19:10	hyPiRion	no, (doseq [item the-list] (my-fn item)) is more idiomatic
19:10	akhudek	I still need to write complex SQL at times, just not most of the time.
19:10	dyreshark	hyPiRion: ok, thanks
19:10	Arafangion	akhudek: I'd prefer an implementation that makes typical usage patterns clear.
19:11	Arafangion	akhudek: django bit me a few weeks ago because I didn't realise that it enforces relationships on the client side, and if you have an FK relationship: A -> B, but B isn't in the database yet and doesn't have a PK, then the A -> B gets broken, silently. You have to save B _before_ you even link it up in teh application code.
19:12	Arafangion	akhudek: A separate, clear, distinct DB boundary would have clarified and eased that considerably, I'd like to say: "Save this structure", and let it figure it out.
19:13	akhudek	Arafangion: are you talking about a big denomalized data structure that you are trying to save to a normalized database?
19:14	Arafangion	akhudek: No, although for various reasons, my db is very unnormalised.
19:14	Arafangion	akhudek: And that structure is exposed 1:1 in the application as well.
19:19	akhudek	Arafangion: ok, thanks for the thoughts. If I come up with anything useful I'll release it as a library. For now I'll see how useful some light synthesis using a copy of the db schema is.
19:20	akhudek	basically remove some repetition, provide automatic data transforms, and do some name checking to remove typing errors
19:22	JanxSpirit	is anything special needed to make lein repl include the project dependencies?
19:23	Arafangion	akhudek: More useful, I suspect, would be a design pattern, or thoughts about which is the best one.
19:23	JanxSpirit	getting class not found when trying to require libraries that work within my project
19:24	akhudek	Arafangion: yep, going to try to incorporate some common db patterns
19:24	Arafangion	akhudek: Years ago, though, as a personal investigation, I wrote a naive ORM for python that attempted to eliminate all "unneccessary" duplication, and also eleminited the need to statically generate models.
19:25	Arafangion	akhudek: But it was just too slow - it's expensive querying the database for the schema and type information.
19:25	akhudek	Arafangion: not planning on querying the database for the schema, it will have to be user supplied
19:25	Arafangion	akhudek: Good.
19:30	Arafangion	akhudek: You will still want to allow even that code to be generated though, but how do you identify what parts of the schema are neccessary? That will also be a good thing to investigate.
19:30	Arafangion	akhudek: Querying the schema isn't expensive at compile time. ;)
19:32	akhudek	Arafangion: yeah, though it isn't always possible to easily do that. For example, postgres has no way to access the schema from java. Plus, you might want to add extra app specific information to the schema such as transform functions for serializing and deserializing columns.
19:32	Arafangion	akhudek: You can easily get the schema in postgresql.
19:32	Arafangion	akhudek: I haven't done it from java, but postgresql does hold the schema information in a separate database.
19:33	akhudek	Arafangion: that's true, I did come across that method, though I haven't looked into it in depth. Tools to make sure your schema matches the database would indeed be useful.
19:33	Arafangion	As for app-specific information, you'd want to do that as serialization routines.
19:33	Arafangion	Although you _could_ define helper functions on the database side.
19:34	Arafangion	But that's an unneccessary complication.
19:36	Arafangion	akhudek: A frightfully large number of database users, however, are ignorant of database theory, such as maintaining the ability to change the database schema without impacting on application's expectations of that schema.
19:36	akhudek	Arafangion: that is a much harder problem to solve :-)
19:39	hyPiRion	say no to "SELECT *" ?
19:39	deadghost	Arafangion, what do you mean
19:39	deadghost	^
19:39	deadghost	is that what you're saying?
19:39	deadghost	in addition to normalizing?
19:40	Arafangion	deadghost: The application really only needs to access the database. It shouldn't care about how the database maps those views to internal tables.
19:42	Arafangion	deadghost: Developers barely seem to even realise that the database can enforce fairly complex constraints. Most ORMs do that on the application side.
19:42	deadghost	oh man
19:42	deadghost	ORMs!
19:42	Arafangion	(As they should.. The problem is that they do so ONLY on the application side)
19:42	deadghost	I haven't met an ORM I've liked
19:43	akhudek	I think a lot of the problem is that there is a hard boundary between the app and the database and thus some of the schema/constraint/query code that would ideally be shared by the two isn't shared.
19:44	deadghost	definitely
19:44	Arafangion	akhudek: And most ORMs and database libraries define the data structures and all related systems in that database.
19:45	Arafangion	akhudek: This language - these nouns, should be separated so that the application can use them without dependency on the database library, and the library can use them without dependency on the application.
19:45	deadghost	so uh how do you guys feel about korma
19:47	akhudek	deadghost: I don't like it because it has needless coupling to things like a default connection pool and also hides access to the jdbc too much. Thus when something goes wrong, you have a hard time escaping to jdbc.
19:47	Arafangion	deadghost: I haven't used it. (As I have yet to use clojure), but superficially it seems useful - akhudek's looking at the problem from an application design poitn of view, though.
19:48	akhudek	it also has something a bit like what we've been discussing, a simple notion of schema with some light sql generation for common patterns
19:48	Arafangion	akhudek: I'm having trouble finding documentation on how schema design should be approached, online, weirdly I can only find minimal information about the three-layer approach.
19:48	Arafangion	deadghost: Also it seems to be far too simplistic.
19:49	Arafangion	deadghost: How does it handle transactions - mysql and postgresql have fairly different notions of what is considered part of a transaction.
19:49	deadghost	dunno my sql ability is light at best
19:49	akhudek	Arafangion: I used to work on a project that took the opposite approach, you could define a schema that included both the logical part and the physical part and then compile relational queries over this down to high performance plans.
19:50	Arafangion	akhudek: Don't you get that for free in postgresql?
19:50	akhudek	Arafangion: it could describe both in memory application data as well as relational data and write plans that use data from any source.
19:50	akhudek	Arafangion: postgres has a little bit of support for this, but it's not nearly as expressive as what we were working on.
19:50	clojurebot	Huh?
19:51	Arafangion	Cool. Would love to chat more, but I have to get going.
19:52	akhudek	Arafangion: some other time. :-)
19:52	Arafangion	Later. :)
19:54	ryanf	the readme for clojurescript.test says
19:54	ryanf	All of the test-definition macros (deftest and with-test, as well as the set-test utility) add to a global registry of available tests (necessary given ClojureScript's lack of namespaces), so you can also define, redefine, and run tests interactively:
19:54	ryanf	what does it mean by "ClojureScript's lack of namespaces"?
19:54	ryanf	I am a noob but clojurescript appears to have namespaces to me
20:02	dnolen	ryanf: they aren't first class like they are in Clojure
20:06	Tolstoy	dnolen: Hello! Re: om, for some reason set-state isn't working. Is it broken lately?
20:06	Tolstoy	dnolen: (om/set-state! owner [:key] "value")
20:07	dnolen	Tolstoy: I recently built both the examples and TodoMVC w/ master, no issues
20:07	Tolstoy	dnolen: right after, I do (om/get-state owner) -> nothing. ;)
20:07	Tolstoy	dnolen: okay.
20:07	ryanf	dnolen: /whois dnolen
20:07	ryanf	haha
20:07	ryanf	oops
20:07	ryanf	:)
20:08	ryanf	anyway thanks, it hadn't occurred to me to check that
20:08	dnolen	Tolstoy: oh that won't work, I need to think about that
20:08	dnolen	Tolstoy: currently you can't immediately read state that you wrote
20:09	dnolen	Tolstoy: React team is thinking about adding a way to read pending state, we should maybe consider that too.
20:09	Tolstoy	dnolen: When does the state get updated? Only on a render?
20:10	dnolen	Tolstoy: it gets commited after IDidUpdate
20:10	Tolstoy	dnolen: I bet this "worked" before because I had a 1 sec clock constantly updated on the screen, thus renders happening all the time.
20:10	dnolen	Tolstoy: actually that's wrong
20:11	dnolen	Tolstoy: reading the life cycle methods in the source is informative
20:11	dnolen	and the source of truth
20:11	Tolstoy	dnolen: yep. As long as you know you've got a lifecycle problem in the first place.... ;)
20:11	dnolen	Tolstoy: pending state gets merged in after IWillUpdate
20:11	dnolen	Tolstoy: sorry I just mean reading the Om source
20:12	dnolen	Tolstoy: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L122
20:14	Tolstoy	dnolen: Interesting. I think I've got this form stuff all wrong due to my previous practice of having a constant clock tick updating the UI.
20:14	Tolstoy	dnolen: Which means things should get simpler. == good! ;)
20:36	devn	How do I get dependency information for a remote lib, like something on clojars? lein-ancient exists, which is nice. I'd like to get an artifact's dependency information in addition to its latest version string.
20:37	devn	Suggestions welcome.
20:37	Tolstoy	devn: lein deps :tree
20:37	devn	Tolstoy: without leiningen, only in clojure
20:38	Tolstoy	devn: Maybe this? https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
20:38	devn	heh, funny you should mention that
20:38	devn	in this particular instance i want to find which version of pomegranate an external artifact is using
20:39	devn	Tolstoy: and by funny I mean I think that's exactly what I need
20:40	Tolstoy	devn: I went down that path looking for something to resolve "ivy" stuff for a super-legacy java project, but gave up.
20:46	devn	Tolstoy: hm, pomegranate gets me closer
20:46	devn	but it gives me the entire tree, and all I want here is basically what is in the remote artifact's project.clj
20:46	Tolstoy	Would that be the immediate children of the artifact?
20:47	Tolstoy	Hm. Not quite.
20:47	devn	hmmmm, actually i think i found it
20:47	devn	just hard to wade through the giant output from add-dependencies
20:48	devn	[[mything "1.2.3"] #{[...] [...]}]
20:55	Tolstoy	Weird. Using om/react, if I prepoulate a form field with a value, I can't type anything else in that field.
20:56	Tolstoy	[:input {:value nil} ] is okay, though. Oy.
21:06	Tolstoy	Gosh: http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/forms.html
21:40	coventry	Is there an easy way to pass arguments to the closure compiler via clojurescript options in project.clj?
22:07	cgag	Are the protocols that the standard persistent datasctures implement documented anywhere? Like if I wanted to write a drop in replacement for clojure's maps, how do I find which protocols I need to implement?
22:15	ddellacosta	cgag: it seems pretty much like you could just extend-type clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap and you're good to go, no?
22:17	cgag	what if i were writing something that expected a map and I wanted it to work with any implementation of a map?
22:17	ddellacosta	sorry, I meant extend-protocol, not extend-type
22:22	cgag_	battery died if someone happened to answer my question in the last minute or two
22:24	ddellacosta	cgag_: whoops
22:25	cgag_	ddellacosta: the problem is i'm working with something that is explicitly checking for instances of java.util.Map and i have a datomic entity
22:25	cgag_	which seems to work like a normal map
22:26	ddellacosta	cgag_: ah, okay. Give me a sec
22:26	cgag_	i guess it might not actually be one though
22:27	ddellacosta	cgag_: it's not, it's a Java data structure
22:27	ddellacosta	it's mutable
22:28	cgag_	Usage: (map? x)
22:28	cgag_	Return true if x implements IPersistentMap
22:28	cgag_	looks like IPersistentMap is what i'm looking for
22:29	ddellacosta	cgag_: so, there is a wide variety of constructs in clojure to do something like what you want, but I'm still a bit confused as to what you are trying to do--you have some Java interop stuff that you need to handle a diatomic entry?
22:29	cgag_	though it apparently doesn't actually implement that interface
22:29	ddellacosta	diatomic = datomic (freaking spellcheck...)
22:29	cgag_	I'm using expectations
22:29	cgag_	and you can write things like
22:29	ddellacosta	entry -> entity
22:30	cgag_	(expect :a (in {:a :b}))
22:30	cgag_	if i do
22:30	cgag_	(expect :db/id (in my-entity))
22:30	cgag_	it tells me i have to give it a map
22:30	cgag_	and it's doing (instance? java.util.Map ...), I was hoping I could patch it with something other than java.util.Map and get it to work as i expect it to
22:31	ddellacosta	cgag_: Clojure's PersistentMap implements Map
22:31	ddellacosta	cgag_: so should work, I would think
22:32	ddellacosta	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentMap.java#L16
22:32	cgag_	yeah it works for a normal map, I wanted it to work with a datomic entity
22:33	ddellacosta	cgag_: I see, I'm not very familiar with diatomic, but looks like Entity is pretty much unrelated. http://docs.datomic.com/javadoc/datomic/Entity.html
22:33	cgag_	it looks like (associative? my-entity) returns true, i might be able to work with that
22:33	ddellacosta	cgag_: looks like it can give you a set
22:35	ddellacosta	cgag_: assuming you want to test the keys, you can use that. otherwise I would argue that you are overthinking it, and should simply get what you want out of the Entity and test it in a simpler way.
22:35	cgag_	ddellacosta: yeah it's pretty trivial for me to write my test in a way that'll work, i just expected this to work and wanted to see if it were possible
22:36	ddellacosta	cgag_: I think that the short answer is no, as an Entity seems to be pretty much unrelated to any notion of a map as it exists in Clojure
22:37	ddellacosta	cgag_: but again, I'm not too familiar with datomic so maybe there is something I'm missing.
22:37	ddellacosta	cgag_: ah, but wait, here it says it implements associative: http://docs.datomic.com/clojure/#datomic.api/entity
22:37	cgag_	http://docs.datomic.com/clojure/#datomic.api/entity
22:37	cgag_	ha
22:37	cgag_	nice timing
22:37	ddellacosta	sorry, should have looked that up first...
22:38	ddellacosta	yeah, heh
22:38	ddellacosta	wow, dealing with types in Clojure, really is a pain, isn't it. light bulb
22:39	ddellacosta	compared to...other type systems. Sorry, not trying to start a flame war, just recollecting a conversation had recently.
22:39	ddellacosta	cgag_: anyways, hopefully that'll help ya...
23:45	cjfrisz	Uuuuuuuuugggghh...just spent a very long time confounded over why a hash-map was giving me the wrong values before I figured out it was created via a zipmap with a a set for the keys list
23:45	cjfrisz	I promise to never forget this lesson for it was quite painful