#clojure – 2013-10-31

2013-10-31

00:07	dav	TimMc: thanks
00:09	`cbp	bitemyapp: Hi
00:09	`cbp	bitemyapp: got a minute?
00:15	TimMc	&((-> ! #(! [%])) []) ;; brehaut, this allocates but also uses (too much) stack
00:15	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
00:16	brehaut	TimMc: thats a mind bender
00:16	TimMc	All it does is build up [[[[[[]]]]]]
00:17	TimMc	I might be able to make something that makes multiple subcalls that eventually return a larger data structure.
00:18	TimMc	I wonder if I can work the Ackermann function in here somehow?
00:22	`cbp	,(macroexpand '(-> ! #(! [%]))) ;; :-O
00:22	clojurebot	(fn* ! [p1__29#] (! [p1__29#]))
00:24	TimMc	...and while researching the Ackermann Function, I end up on gfredericks.com.
00:24	TimMc	It's a small internet.
00:25	amalloy	TimMc: as an exercise in CPS i wrote a trampolining ackermann function in clojure that uses no stack; i've lost it now, but it's a fun exercise if you get tired of swearjure
00:25	bitemyapp	`cbp: yeah, what's up?
00:26	`cbp	bitemyapp: currently the response is parsed out as {:token ## :response (..)} is that ok or should we ignore the token? The official apis ignore the token in the response AFAIK
00:27	TimMc	amalloy: Bounded stack and bounded heap allocation?
00:27	amalloy	no, of course it uses unbounded heap
00:27	bitemyapp	`cbp: I need the token to match promises with protobuf responses.
00:27	bitemyapp	`cbp: unless I've misunderstood something.
00:27	`cbp	bitemyapp: you send the token when you send a response though, rdb doesn't generate it
00:27	TimMc	amalloy: What I mean is, bounded number of objects.
00:27	amalloy	since (ack n) takes unbounded space just to represent, for large n, let alone compute
00:27	`cbp	so in theory you already have it
00:27	TimMc	But I guess not that either.
00:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: uhm, no, I don't think you understand what I mean.
00:28	`cbp	bitemyapp: i mean when you send a query
00:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: I need the tokens to match the query results to the promises.
00:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: that's how I'm solving the race condition.
00:28	`cbp	bitemyapp oh I see
00:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: there's no guarantee what order the queries come back in.
00:28	bitemyapp	if query A gets sent first, takes 100ms, query B gets sent second, takes 50 ms, you have a problem.
00:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: I wrote the test reproducing this.
00:29	bitemyapp	the race condition.
00:29	bitemyapp	when I replace the conn mgmt machinery, it should make the connections thread-safe and free from race conditions.
00:30	`cbp	bitemyapp: so should the user be forced to (:response @promise)?
00:30	bitemyapp	`cbp: no, but I need it.
00:30	bitemyapp	`cbp: we can leave it out of the default user-facing API.
00:30	bitemyapp	send query with token 1, associate (promise) in agent with 1 such that (agent {1 (promise)}) - then, thread-singleton pulling down results sends results back to agent, delivers protobuf message with token 1 into the (promise) and dissocs it from the agent.
00:30	bitemyapp	`cbp: those are the semantics I have in mind ^^
00:31	bitemyapp	I'll probably toss exceptions into the promise too.
00:32	bitemyapp	but ideally not in the agent itself.
00:32	bitemyapp	or the thread-singleton pulling stuff down for the conn agent.
00:35	`cbp	I'll leave it as is and leave the second part of (is (= (run query) ..)) in todo mode till we have that part ready :-p
00:50	rhg135	WB
00:50	rhg135	WB
00:50	Raynes	wub wub wub
00:51	rhg135	WB
00:52	uvtc	Warner Bros? Writers block?
00:52	uvtc	*Writer's
00:52	rhg135	WB
00:52	rhg135	WB
00:53	TimMc	I didn't know stuttering came across in text as well.
00:54	rhg135	WB
00:55	rhg135	WB
00:59	rhg135	WB
00:59	rhg135	WB
00:59	rhg135	WB
01:01	rhg135	WB
01:01	rhg135	WB
01:01	rhg135	WB
01:02	rhg135	oh shit
01:02	rhg135	there, it's off
01:07	nightfly	wrong buffer?
01:45	Shiro-Ichida	Hi. Anybody here know how 4Clojure works?
01:45	Shiro-Ichida	I've written something that seems to work in the online REPL, but fails when I put it into 4Clojure.
02:10	brand0	;;last
02:13	brand0	Shiro-Ichida: u get help yet?
02:21	Mufasaa	Hi guys
02:21	Mufasaa	a late night question for the man who suddenly had the greatest urge to learn clojure
02:22	Mufasaa	I've found several references on how to write specific functions/maps/hashes and other idioms of clojure
02:22	Mufasaa	but nothing that really shows you how a proper application/system written in clojure really works
02:22	Mufasaa	ideas?
02:29	Mufasaa	No takers?
02:29	epichero	Take up drinking, clojure isn't newbie friendly at all. someone will think they are destined to prove me wrong so just wait
02:34	Mufasaa	LOL, programming, with the exception of basic, should not be user friendly
02:34	Mufasaa	I'm wrapping my brains around the concepts of functional programming
02:37	epichero	Okay, you can search for iirc clojure community cookbook. Something like that will find the github project, i'm on mobile and its a chore to dig it up
02:38	Mufasaa	Thanks, I'll look that up. Currently looking at Mark Volkmann's Snake
02:42	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: do you want a full application, say a web app?
02:43	Mufasaa	Well, I'm happy to put my grubby hands on any full app now. I'm trying to make sense out of all that I'm learning
02:47	epichero	Pedestal has some good tutorials, but its opinionated and i'd only advise it if you have fullstack experience.
02:47	wink	Mufasaa: can't speak for its quality, as I'd put myself more in the beginner camp, but https://github.com/winks/multiplex is a relatively simple webapp, a tumble log on postgres. more than hello world, but not big
02:48	epichero	Nice
02:48	wink	it's working enough that I use my own instance instead of soup.io
02:48	wink	it even works well enough I haven't touched it in a while :(
02:48	Mufasaa	thanks
02:49	Mufasaa	cerainly a starting point
02:49	Mufasaa	*certainly
02:49	wink	you could also have a look at leiningen, as you'll use it anyway. But I'd say it's a little meta and complicated for the first weeks
02:50	shoshin	ping
02:50	shoshin	is there a library like SciKit available in Clojure?
02:50	Mufasaa	I am using lein, but I certainly won't claim to have gained mastery
02:51	Mufasaa	this is my 2nd day/night
02:51	wink	shoshin: if you find something and it has scikit-audiolab, please tell me :)
02:51	epichero	There are example files you should read over 10 times on the lein gh page
02:52	abaranosky	Mufasaa: what are your questions?
02:52	wink	Mufasaa: you could have a quick glance at https://pinboard.in/u:winks/t:clojure/ - it's basically all I used for learning clojure
02:52	abaranosky	I've used lein for like 2 years or more, and still I don't have mastery :\
02:52	Mufasaa	@abaranosky: well, nothing specific as yet, just looking for an application/walkthrough
02:52	wink	Mufasaa: should be a few examples and howtos in there as well
02:53	abaranosky	wink: what is pinboard? Looks like an interesting service
02:53	wink	I think http://thecomputersarewinning.com/post/clojure-heroku-noir-mongo got me hooked
02:53	bitemyapp	abaranosky: just a way to save links.
02:53	wink	abaranosky: bookmarking service like delicious et al
02:53	Mufasaa	NICE, now why did google not show me that?
02:53	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: http://github.com/bitemyapp/neubite/
02:53	wink	Mufasaa: noir is deprecated nowadays
02:54	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I would pay for a pinboard account just to support the hilarious founder.
02:54	shoshin	wink a lot of folks who do work in machine learning use Incanter. That's the one library that keeps popping up every time i look for machine learning + clojure
02:54	wink	abaranosky: I am a huge fan of it. it's a one-time payment
02:54	bitemyapp	it's one of those cool "pay once, use until I am out of business" services.
02:54	wink	shoshin: well I am not doing ML at all, just audio processing :P
02:54	wink	shoshin: but thanks :)
02:54	abaranosky	isn't it just a spot to put my bookmarks? How's it better than Chrome bookmarks?
02:55	abaranosky	bitemyapp: that's a rad biz model
02:55	bitemyapp	abaranosky: some people like the less ephemeral feeling of saving and organizing bookmarks to pinboard rather than Chrome-specific cloud-synched bookmarks.
02:56	abaranosky	anyone here using Riemann?
02:56	bitemyapp	abaranosky: for example, I have 4 different chrome profiles and google accounts.
02:56	wink	yeah. multi-device, multi-browser
02:56	bitemyapp	chrome bookmark sync isn't super-duper practical for me.
02:56	bitemyapp	even though I don't really use non-Chrome browsers.
02:56	wink	I wrote my own bookmarking tool (yes, more than one) before chrome was even conceived
02:56	wink	possibly before firefox
02:56	bitemyapp	I've written a couple.
02:56	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I guess that sounds right. I pesonally have just accepted tht I'll always eventually lose all my bookmarks
02:57	abaranosky	23:16 *** tauntaun JOIN
02:57	wink	I put em online to share as reference (like I jsut did) anyway :)
02:57	bitemyapp	abaranosky: that's where I'm at now. Non-attachment to bookmarks.
02:57	abaranosky	but also... any more than 15-20 is essentially infinite bookmarks for me, and I won't read them anyhow
02:57	wink	so why not embrace a service that abstracts the details. I can backup a dump form time to time
02:57	bitemyapp	I just don't care anymore. The important stuff are usually PDFs and I just save those.
02:57	bitemyapp	tracking down white papers can be ANNOYING sometimes.
02:58	wink	abaranosky: I just dump a filtered list on http://f5n.org/stack/ anyway
02:58	abaranosky	I am just inundated in a sea of cool information... if it is really special it will come back around again :D
02:58	wink	I'd love some more papers
02:59	Mufasaa	hmmm
02:59	abaranosky	"Japanese politician banned for wearing wrestling mask to meetings"
02:59	wink	time for breakfast. coming to work at 6 am is.. unusual
03:00	abaranosky	where is it 6am?
03:00	wink	yeah, can't be all tech stuff :P
03:00	wink	Germany. 7:20 now
03:00	Mufasaa	so, I've cloned both, thanks guys
03:00	Mufasaa	Canada (Calgary) 00:21
03:00	abaranosky	Mufasa: I'm always up for a code review
03:00	Jarda	.fi 8:21
03:00	abaranosky	... if that's your thing
03:01	`cbp	sounds kinky
03:01	Mufasaa	I will hold you to that, but let me write something first in clojure :)
03:01	Mufasaa	ROFL
03:02	Mufasaa	for the time being, what do you guys think of this: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/ClojureSnake.html
03:02	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: you don't want me to review your code, pick abaranosky.
03:02	abaranosky	best to ping me on Twitter @Baranosky
03:02	Mufasaa	OK, will follow
03:03	abaranosky	1. defstruct is ancient, I think it essentially deprecated
03:03	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: sorta ick. I'm @bitemyapp on twitter. Follow me even though I'm not going to help you.
03:03	bitemyapp	There's not a good reason to use defstruct.
03:03	bitemyapp	OTOH, I get irritated when people use defrecord for no reason too.
03:04	Mufasaa	I'm new to clojure, don't know right from wrong, this is the stuff I found on the net
03:04	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: take a look at the web app I linked you.
03:04	abaranosky	that is correct... don't use defrecord, as a beginner
03:05	abaranosky	that's the safest way to use defrecord when you're still learning: never use it
03:05	abaranosky	(quot (.getWidth size) cell-size) construction seems weird
03:05	abaranosky	Mufasaa: in general that code looks a few years old
03:06	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: just use maps, vectors, and sets. See how far you get.
03:06	bitemyapp	Constraint is the harsh foster-parent of creativity.
03:07	Mufasaa	This is my second day at it
03:07	abaranosky	anyone use Riemann?
03:07	Mufasaa	Looking at it, I've cloned it and will be disecting it
03:07	abaranosky	We're starting to use it at work... looks pretty nice
03:07	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I'd lazyweb it to Twitter to see if anybody speaks up. I don't think it has a ton of users, those that I've talked to that tried it said it was really cool but ended up rolling something more manual.
03:08	bitemyapp	I personally despise statsd and graphite, so Riemann has a special place in my heart.
03:08	`cbp	it's not very constraining at all since everything you get to the outside world gets turned to maps, vectors and sets sooner or later anyway :p
03:08	`cbp	you get from*
03:08	bitemyapp	this is true. plain old data and functions go a long way.
03:08	abaranosky	we need some dissenting opinion though
03:09	abaranosky	we're all a bunch of fanboys here ... no good arguments to be had :\|
03:09	bitemyapp	The only real "evil" I use is alter-var-root.
03:09	wink	"legacy clojure code" - aka "first world problems"
03:10	abaranosky	what are your favorite non-party-line thoughts about clojure?
03:10	Mufasaa	I'm curious, do you use clojure in your day to day work lives?
03:10	bitemyapp	abaranosky: type systems are hella useful and typed clojure excites me but it won't end up quite as slick/fluid as a Haskell/ML's type system.
03:10	wink	I committed one leiningen project to our work repo, not more until now :P
03:10	abaranosky	alter-var-root has its place... just not as often as you like to use it I think :D
03:10	bitemyapp	abaranosky: the inability to make practical fast-starting binaries in Clojure cripples my ability to use it outside of server stuff.
03:10	rhg135	abaranosky: try #perl for arguments ;-)
03:11	bitemyapp	abaranosky: Leiningen is probably one of the best things about Clojure.
03:11	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I wish keywords didnt'e xist, and we could have extended String to a Callable protocol
03:11	bitemyapp	whoa, I'm definitely going to disagree with you on that one.
03:11	abaranosky	that's all Keywords are practically speaking
03:12	bitemyapp	I would not want strings to be callable. it would proliferate the already annoying NPEs badly.
03:12	abaranosky	unless there is some amazing performance boost you get fro them, which I 've never seen when profiling
03:12	bitemyapp	abaranosky: the point is to indicate "intent" and separate things into a tighter and more focused fitness for purpose.
03:12	bitemyapp	They're also more visually distinct when you're got a map of keys to string values.
03:13	abaranosky	a coworker and I theorized that the only reason Keyword existed was because there was no callable protocol to extend to Srings... especially since protocols didnt' exist when Clojure was creaed
03:13	bitemyapp	{:a "blah" :b "woot"} vs. {"a" "blah" "b" "woot"} <--- when those strings and keys are longer, it becomes harder to see where it begins and ends.
03:13	bitemyapp	abaranosky: nah, it could've had IFn on it.
03:13	bitemyapp	it just isn't a good idea.
03:13	abaranosky	I bye the visual thing... but then we could have some minor sugar to make it moe distinct... or just use commas
03:13	bitemyapp	(apply "blah" *) should always be a type error / exception.
03:14	abaranosky	mostly my concern with keywords is that there can becomes a lot of mental overhead in remember when things are Strings vs Keywords.
03:14	bitemyapp	commas are antithetical to Lisp syntax.
03:14	abaranosky	and sometimes its not easy to keep rack of
03:14	bitemyapp	I don't find I run into that, but I'm also very consistent about what becomes a string vs. keyword.
03:14	abaranosky	then of course you get the massive postwalking people do to keywordize json maps and such and it just begins to get ridiculous
03:14	abaranosky	incidental complexity even
03:14	bitemyapp	anything that crosses the barrier into the "system" gets keywordized.
03:15	bitemyapp	welp. lol.
03:15	abaranosky	there's a point where you cant keywordize though, because of performance degredation
03:15	bitemyapp	it depends on how much the outside stringly data will "infect" the interior codebase.
03:15	bitemyapp	if it's going to proliferate stringly keys, I'll patch the data source origin to use keywords by default, no post-walking.
03:16	bitemyapp	abaranosky: and the word I used up there, "patch"? That's alter-var-root >:)
03:16	abaranosky	hehe
03:16	bitemyapp	abaranosky: working on Revise right now. connection management is an interesting problem.
03:17	abaranosky	when preformance tuning our real time offer system over the last few months, keywordization of data structures was costing us WAYYYYYYYYY too much time.
03:17	abaranosky	JSON -> EDN -> JSON was just a total performance sink
03:17	bitemyapp	abaranosky: my main Clojure heresy is my insistence that types and categories form a very compressed and efficient way to think about programs at a high level, and that they can be harnessed to help you write/modify the program.
03:17	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I don't doubt it, that's why I mentioned patching to avoid post-walk.
03:18	abaranosky	bitemyapp: can you bring that 2nd to last message into a more concreate example?
03:18	Mufasaa	bitemyapp: OK, so this needs mongo installed, and I don't feel like messing with that at 00:38, but I will get it up and running
03:18	bitemyapp	Mufasaa: break things, make a mess, have fun.
03:18	abaranosky	I really like schemas or types at the outer layers
03:18	bitemyapp	abaranosky: well, if you don't mind the Haskell, Hoogle is a really good example.
03:18	Mufasaa	OH I will
03:18	Mufasaa	only way to learn
03:18	abaranosky	Mufasaa: mongo is ridiculously easy to install FYI
03:19	bitemyapp	abaranosky: the blending of Monads into the type system allow it to be more expressive about what the computation is doing.
03:19	bitemyapp	but lets start with a simpler example
03:19	Mufasaa	abaranosky: yeah, but I don't feel like doing it. The only reason I'm off is because I had surgery day before yesterday and I was pepped up on pain-killers with caffeine. Now its time for bed
03:20	Mufasaa	thanks all, I'll be back tomorrow, with a whole slew of questions
03:20	Raynes	Feel better, sir.
03:20	Mufasaa	Ta
03:20	abaranosky	Mufasaa: tomorrow when the painkillers wear off you may wonder what the hell you were thinking learning clojrue :P
03:20	bitemyapp	abaranosky: lets say I want a function like interpose.
03:20	bitemyapp	,(apply str (interpose "," "abcde"))
03:20	clojurebot	"a,b,c,d,e"
03:20	abaranosky	ok intepose!
03:21	bitemyapp	abaranosky: abstractly, the type signature is a -> [a] -> [a]
03:21	bitemyapp	takes two arguments, first one is a scalar, second one is a list of a, and the result is a list of a.
03:21	bitemyapp	abaranosky: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=a+-%3E+a+-%3E+%5Ba%5D
03:22	bitemyapp	if I know that a particular type-class applies to my "a", I can use a qualifier like:
03:22	bitemyapp	Ord a => a -> [a] -> [a]
03:22	abaranosky	and you can effectively search for fns this way?
03:22	bitemyapp	abaranosky: oh yes, I do so all the time.
03:23	bitemyapp	so, between types, typeclasses, and monads I can think about the problem I am solving and if I can't remember the function I want, I can try a plausible looking type signature and generally get what I want.
03:23	abaranosky	but haskell isn't homoiconic... not sur eI could go back to the dark side
03:23	bitemyapp	abaranosky: when my emacs cursor sits on a variable name in Haskell, it shows me the type signature, which as you've seen is often quite small. This is typically all I need to know.
03:23	abaranosky	bitemyapp: that is interesting..
03:24	abaranosky	that's neat
03:24	bitemyapp	so all documentation, abstract thought, and discovery is in terms of types as far as the "practical" experience of Haskell goes.
03:24	bitemyapp	I find that, and the experience of a compiler that's actually useful, very pleasant.
03:24	abaranosky	what kinds of problems do you think Haskell is best suited for?
03:24	bitemyapp	even in Clojure, I think in types.
03:24	bitemyapp	because of the time I've spent with Haskell.
03:24	wink	does that have anything to do with keywords or did I lose your discussion? :
03:25	abaranosky	latter
03:25	wink	ok, good
03:25	bitemyapp	abaranosky: high assurance, anytime you want a plain old binary, stuff where you want to optimize for the kinds of things the JVM can be bad at.
03:25	bitemyapp	"things the JVM can be bad at" to that end, you can write Haskell that generates value-types that stay in registers or on the stack without becoming references on the heap.
03:25	abaranosky	specifically, I wonder if it is good for any of the types of projects we're getting into at work
03:26	bitemyapp	so your inner loops can be pretty hot in Haskell if you want.
03:26	bitemyapp	abaranosky: it seems to get used a lot where complicated analysis is involved. Analysis of data, code, etc. Thanks to things like Parsec, it's great for parsing.
03:26	abaranosky	just found this project yesterday... i like it a bunch: https://github.com/koalaman/shellcheck
03:26	bitemyapp	Parsec being the great-grand-daddy of Instaparse.
03:27	abaranosky	I should clone instaparse and get some scotch and an repl session going and see what becometh
03:27	bitemyapp	the only two things I wouldn't plausibly use Haskell for right now are web (clojurescript, http-kit, etc are a big win here) and datomic.
03:28	bitemyapp	incidentally, web and datomic are 90% of my day job....so I'm using Clojure...
03:28	abaranosky	interestingly we profiled HTTP KIT vs JEtty and JEtty ended up winning
03:28	bitemyapp	hrm. I should write a Haskell Datomic client.
03:28	abaranosky	but it was close
03:28	bitemyapp	abaranosky: yeah, http-kit does better with many I/O heavy dumb threads
03:28	Jarda	if I'd need websockets is httpkit the way to go?
03:28	abaranosky	yep
03:28	bitemyapp	abaranosky: you guys are doing more analysis/CPU heavy stuff than most, aren't ya?
03:28	bitemyapp	Jarda: da.
03:29	bitemyapp	if I write a Haskell datomic client, I will have worked on two Clojure database libraries and one Haskell one.
03:29	bitemyapp	egads.
03:29	abaranosky	actually, most of the time is spent going to redis and rabbit... though some of our model evaluation can take up a bunch of CPU. Depends which model is being run
03:30	Jarda	btw speaking of redis and rabbit
03:30	abaranosky	Jarda: yeah?
03:30	Apage43	throw riak in there, maybe some riemann
03:31	Apage43	see how many R's you can get in your stack
03:31	Apage43	in fact
03:31	bitemyapp	RethinkDB
03:31	Apage43	use R to generate graphs out the other end
03:31	Jarda	I have some HTTP routes that are using a foreign web service to fetch data. The web service can be painly slow. I thought I'd just return something like 'check this url later for your results or listen to the websocket'
03:31	bitemyapp	I'm working on the db client for RethinkDB right now.
03:31	bitemyapp	RethinkDB, R, Rabbit, Riak, Riemann, Redis.
03:31	Jarda	but should I use some real message queue for this stuff or just carmine?
03:31	bitemyapp	and hire Relevance to slap it together.
03:31	bitemyapp	Jarda: job-queue right?
03:31	Jarda	bitemyapp: yeah job-queue
03:32	bitemyapp	Jarda: just use carmine OR core.async
03:32	bitemyapp	abaranosky: most of the Haskell users I know were baffled by the enthusiasm for core.async - they've had pipe, conduit, and green threads for years.
03:32	Jarda	I don't want to make sub-sequent requests to the web service. The poor service just might die ;) :D
03:32	bitemyapp	their bemusement tickled me.
03:32	bitemyapp	(I really like core.async, for the record)
03:32	abaranosky	you could also fetch the data and stick it on S3, and give them a url to S3
03:33	Jarda	abaranosky: nah, it's not just data. It's something I store to db and process for the users
03:33	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I think my name for that is GFYA - "go fuck yourself async"
03:33	abaranosky	I highy recommend Time Baldridges youtube videos on how the core.async code works
03:33	bitemyapp	deep macros _
03:33	bitemyapp	abaranosky: macros is something Haskell is weak on for sure. Template Haskell is scurry.
03:33	abaranosky	yeah I like that.... GFYS.
03:34	bitemyapp	"here's a URL, it's no longer my problem"
03:34	Jarda	I really should dig into core.async and the theory underneath it. I'm writing my bachelor of science thesis on concurrency in web applications
03:34	bitemyapp	Jarda: you really want to dig into core.async and Pedestal then, yes.
03:34	abaranosky	I was initially attracted to Shen because it is homoiconic but also has a nice type system
03:35	abaranosky	but then I found out how its not used for realworld code and stopped being interested in it
03:35	bitemyapp	too loopy for me. I'd rather use Haskell.
03:35	epichero	Ew haskell, its like a religion
03:36	abaranosky	epichero: HWA??
03:36	lazybot	abaranosky: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
03:36	wink	Jarda: in what form? comparing languages?
03:36	bitemyapp	epichero: if core.typed proliferates I'll be pretty happy. It's more that I like types than that I like Haskell specifically.
03:36	bitemyapp	I just like Haskell's implementation of a practical language with a nice type system.
03:36	abaranosky	I like types alla carte... that's nice
03:36	bitemyapp	abaranosky: ho damn, you read that paper?
03:37	Jarda	wink: it might lean more towards 'web development with clojurescript' maybe I don't know. It's a bit unclear still
03:37	abaranosky	anyone have any experience with protobufs
03:37	bitemyapp	isn't that some cool stuff?
03:37	bitemyapp	abaranosky: ...yes...me...right now.
03:37	Apage43	haha
03:37	poppingtonic	hi
03:37	bitemyapp	abaranosky: RethinkDB's protocol is protobufs.
03:37	bitemyapp	and...I'm working on cbp's revival of Revise.
03:37	abaranosky	so you like it?
03:37	wink	Jarda: ah, I see :)
03:38	bitemyapp	abaranosky: RethinkDB or protobufs?
03:38	abaranosky	bitemyapp: protobufs
03:38	bitemyapp	They're pretty solid. A little crazy/opaque at times but better than most options.
03:38	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I actually haven't read that paper, but I guess I my hve heard the term somewhere
03:39	bitemyapp	abaranosky: the paper is about using things like monads to implement ACLs.
03:39	abaranosky	we're looking for something both faster and more self-reinforcing for our external API calls
03:39	bitemyapp	external?
03:39	bitemyapp	you'd expose protobufs to an external caller?
03:40	abaranosky	what does that have to do with types all carte though?
03:40	abaranosky	external / internal
03:40	abaranosky	they're in the same company, but a different division
03:40	Apage43	ah
03:41	abaranosky	as opposed to giving them JSON, then getting stuck fixing all the times when they don't follow our spec properly
03:41	bitemyapp	abaranosky: well, protobufs do a good job of telling the other guy to shove it if he gets the binary blob wrong.
03:41	Apage43	that's basically (as I read it) the intended use case
03:41	abaranosky	also, it'll make our services even faster, which is nice
03:41	bitemyapp	abaranosky: yeah if it's cross-departmental but still "internal'ish", I'd use protobufs with a versioned API.
03:41	abaranosky	"protobufs do a good job of telling the
03:41	abaranosky	other guy to shove it if he gets the binary blob wrong." heck yeah
03:42	bitemyapp	protobufs handled RethinkDB's arbitarily recursive documents and lambdas pretty nicely.
03:42	abaranosky	bitemyapp: good, that seems to be what we're most likey to be doing
03:42	bitemyapp	and trust me, nothing will gork your brain like trying to read recursive binary representations of higher order functions.
03:42	Apage43	if you follow the rules (you only ever add stuff to the definitions) you at least get past the point of message encoding/decoding pretty quick and don't have to worry about that
03:42	abaranosky	bitemyapp: oh wow, so the data description language is pretty powerful then
03:42	Apage43	then you can deal with the actual problems
03:42	bitemyapp	abaranosky: soorrrrrtaaaa
03:42	Apage43	ha
03:43	Apage43	actually most of that comes out of how protobufs are encoded
03:43	abaranosky	:'(
03:43	Apage43	the actual definition is sorta dumb
03:43	Apage43	if you have a protobuf in a protobuf
03:43	bitemyapp	let me just show you the proto file
03:43	bitemyapp	abaranosky: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/blob/master/resources/proto/rethinkdb.proto
03:43	Apage43	it basically encodes that as an opaque blob, and the decoder because it knows the definition can do the right thing
03:44	abaranosky	Maybe I can generate protobuf data descriptions with macros :)
03:44	bitemyapp	abaranosky: it is worth noting here that these protobufs are serializing...JSON.
03:44	bitemyapp	so the semantics of the API are still arbitrary documents
03:44	Apage43	but that's also nice, as it allows old decoders to ignore new fields they don't care about, always
03:44	abaranosky	(kidding btw)
03:44	bitemyapp	even if protobufs themselves aren't.
03:44	bitemyapp	abaranosky: you definitely could.
03:44	bitemyapp	you shouldn't, but you could.
03:45	bitemyapp	abaranosky: "message Term {" is where the lambda horror begins.
03:45	abaranosky	bitemyapp: macros are the crack cocaine of Lisp coding
03:45	abaranosky	... you shouldn't, but you could
03:45	bitemyapp	abaranosky: and then the RQL lang itself looks like the example on here: http://rethinkdb.com/
03:45	bitemyapp	but again, because it's just protobufs, you can adapt it to the semantics of your language.
03:45	Apage43	the protobuf is a sort of AST-encoding on the wire
03:46	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I need to read that file more closely when its not as late
03:46	Apage43	so each client library builds that in a way that is semi-familiar to users of the host language
03:46	bitemyapp	^^ yep.
03:46	bitemyapp	Apage43: well, high level language users yes. Java users no.
03:47	bitemyapp	the Java client library stalled out when they got to the lambdas. This made me laugh more than it should've.
03:47	Apage43	Java always gets the short straw
03:47	abaranosky	they like them though :\
03:47	bitemyapp	but OTOH, it means the Clojure library (revise) has a good excuse to work with a clean, zero-java library.
03:47	Apage43	I always feel a bit sad when I look at java-datomic or jcascalog
03:47	Apage43	writing your query as a bigass string
03:47	bitemyapp	Apage43: I feel a bit sad as a Clojure and Datomic user and everytime I check the docs they use Java to demonstrate something.
03:48	abaranosky	I always feel like I do when I see people wearing bell bottoms, when I think of Java coders
03:48	abaranosky	but the reality is some huge percentage of all programmers are C# or Java programmers
03:48	Apage43	but but that's.. data... why are you putting in in a string like that... stop :(
03:49	bitemyapp	Apage43: strings and Object are the dynamic types of Java-land.
03:49	bitemyapp	and XML strings.
03:49	Apage43	C# has a few niceties that I would really not mind if java stole
03:49	abaranosky	bitemyapp: if only Java users had Keywords...
03:50	abaranosky	C# is a better JAva... except for the VM
03:50	bitemyapp	Apage43: I want .NET VM's TCO support.
03:50	bitemyapp	abaranosky: and the libraries...
03:50	abaranosky	after I said the VM part i realized I was full of shit
03:50	bitemyapp	Java libraries are better and more plentiful even if the language is worse.
03:51	abaranosky	it is more the libraries, and open source community around Java is better
03:51	Apage43	I try not to think about it
03:51	abaranosky	like you said CLR has TCO, and also reified generics
03:51	Apage43	it's one of those things where part of me wants to shout "It didn't have to be this way!"
03:51	Apage43	but it is that way
03:51	Apage43	so
03:52	abaranosky	Apage43: what language do you work in?
03:52	Apage43	for money? C++ and Erlang mostly.
03:52	Apage43	or plain C, depending.
03:52	bitemyapp	^^ a more patient man than I
03:52	bitemyapp	Apage43: how prolific is the use of Dialyzer there?
03:53	Apage43	none of which by preference of course =P
03:53	Apage43	bitemyapp: the CI system runs it when the CI system isn't down.
03:53	bitemyapp	LOL
03:53	bitemyapp	sounds typical for CI.
03:53	abaranosky	I'd say the market in the Bay Area is wide open for Clojure devs
03:53	Apage43	but basically we've all gotten really good at writing the sorts of bugs dialyzer doesn't catch
03:54	abaranosky	every clojure place I talk to has a tough time fidning good devs
03:54	Apage43	it probably has saved the erlang bits from getting too crufty though, since it is good about complaining when you have unreachable code
03:55	bitemyapp	I wonder what the ratio of Haskell aspirants and open positions looks like in comparison?
03:55	bitemyapp	Apage43: that's pretty cool.
03:55	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I wonder... How many positions do you think there are open? I have no real feel for that
03:56	Apage43	the main gripe is that noone actually runs it on their laptops/before committing to review
03:56	abaranosky	bitemyapp: Haskell positions, I mean
03:56	Apage43	largely because if you don't have the stuff it caches handy
03:56	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I don't know really, I know Galois is one of the more well known employers.
03:56	Apage43	a run from scratch takes a good 20-30 min
03:56	bitemyapp	it seems like Haskell is getting increasing popular in finance. I seem to see a lot of funds and banks hiring for Haskell lately.
03:56	bitemyapp	Especially abroad.
03:56	Apage43	or it did last time I tried
03:56	epichero	I'm still struggling to develop my clojure skillls. I like the challenge but the documentation for clojure libs is just horrid
03:57	Apage43	probably better now on my newer laptop
03:57	bitemyapp	Apage43: never going to complain about core.typed's runtime ever again.
03:58	abaranosky	epichero: I never thought I'd say something like this, but in some sense it is true: ... you don't need quite as good docs in Clojure as you would in Java, because the code is usually very easy to peer into and see what it is doing
03:58	bitemyapp	abaranosky: the denser expression of intent enables this.
03:59	bitemyapp	abaranosky: given that, imagine what types do for you?
03:59	bitemyapp	with types, you don't even need to read the code ^_^
03:59	abaranosky	... also since M-. is so common in Emacs, I don't feel the huge separation betwen my code and their code
03:59	bitemyapp	abaranosky: yissss I love M-.
04:00	bitemyapp	dancing in jars to understand code is a great feeling
04:00	abaranosky	but
04:00	Apage43	I'm quite happy that the vim-fireplace equivalent works really well also
04:00	Apage43	C-] I think is the mapping there
04:00	abaranosky	but I've already got the Clojure bug... so I'm pretty much not a good person to ask about that kind of stuff
04:00	epichero	I have been using a heavily customized emacs with evil
04:02	epichero	I like clojure, i'm still trash at it but i'm learning. I like the community a lot and i just wish the docs were better
04:02	abaranosky	I wish it was easier to get into
04:03	abaranosky	a lot of what I know is from a ton of experience, and then also working closely with other Clojure devs with a bunch of experience
04:03	abaranosky	there's a lot of stuff you pickup as you go... tooling and how to use leiningen and lcojars etc
04:03	epichero	Its been the most difficult language to get into... The hardest workflow to set up and the most obtuse tooling
04:04	epichero	Its not the language as much as everything else
04:04	bitemyapp	interesting. I found Leiningen refreshing.
04:04	bitemyapp	going to say Apage43 knows real pain here.
04:04	Apage43	i still don't understand how any of it works
04:05	Apage43	we have a guy at the office who knows autotools front to back but will only answer questions with some variant of "you should just read the manual"
04:05	abaranosky	bitemyapp: i din't mean to say leiningen was hard... just that in general learning all the tools was hard for me
04:05	Apage43	by which he means actually read it cover to cover
04:05	abaranosky	I was not an Emacs guy...
04:05	Apage43	not try to use it as reference
04:07	epichero	Emacs is awful, i have it customized to the point i can't tell its emacs and therefore tolerate it. Everything gnu is a nightmare
04:07	ddellacosta	epichero: I find that really strange because I got up and running with lein really quickly. That + 4clojure got me up and running pretty quickly. I have never found the tools too challenging.
04:07	abaranosky	Emacs is amazing
04:07	Apage43	gnightmare?
04:07	abaranosky	hehe
04:07	abaranosky	I used to hate it
04:07	ddellacosta	epichero: not an emacs lover? Huh, well, I'm biased as I've been using it for years, but I think it's fantastic.
04:07	abaranosky	but I respect any dissenter's opinions there :)
04:07	ddellacosta	I think you'll find the Emacs love in the Clojure community is strong.
04:08	ddellacosta	abaranosky: yep, always good to hear dissenters.
04:08	epichero	I use it, i have it super customized to overpower the awful
04:09	Apage43	I manage to get into it when I actually have the chance to do nothing but Clojure for a while, but I have so much vim in my muscle memory (and so much custom configuration there) that it's hard to try and learn a new thing when I actually need to get stuff done
04:09	Apage43	as it's very frustrating to have a thing I'm already reasonably competent with also handy
04:09	ddellacosta	epichero: so, I'm curious about what you find is awful about emacs, but I'm more curious about what you find challenging about the clojure environment. Is it leiningen? Is it stacktraces? Etc.
04:09	epichero	I have emacs evil so seamless it feels like vim
04:09	Apage43	it's the same problem as trying to learn a new keyboard layout
04:10	abaranosky	epichero: some more specifics other than "the awful" would really help bring this home for us
04:10	ddellacosta	well, if vim is your tool of choice, there's no getting around it. But there is also pretty good Clojure/nrepl integration with vim I thought.
04:10	abaranosky	FYI: I'm talking to you all right now via an Emacs buffer
04:11	Apage43	the main thing that stops me using emacs/clj once I've gotten back into the groove is when I manage to hang it, usually by doing something stupid in a repl =P
04:11	epichero	You can name all these things you know what is awful is having to learn all of it just to get code to run, its not one thing. And having to change to lein2 when i was a month in is probably why i am so bitter about it
04:11	Apage43	ddellacosta: fireplace is quite nice, but if you really like having a REPL buffer you'll find it lacking
04:11	poppingtonic	who's managed to upgrade from nrepl.el to cider?
04:11	ddellacosta	Apage43: ah, okay. I am pretty ignorant of it since I am an emacs guy, but just have heard it's decent.
04:12	abaranosky	I don't like the name, so haven't upgraded :P
04:12	abaranosky	what are CIDERs new features?
04:12	Apage43	it does most of the stuff you want, doc strings, jump to def, eval blocks, etc., it just doesn't have a repl buffer
04:12	epichero	Theres also redl vim-redl i think its called
04:12	ddellacosta	epichero: so, anything still remaining in the clojure environment that bugs you? Leaving aside bitterness w/lein 1->2 transition
04:12	scottj	abaranosky: I don't think there are any big new features yet
04:13	abaranosky	I'm craving apple cider now
04:14	ddellacosta	abaranosky: dammit, stop it, I'll want some too
04:14	abaranosky	is the talk schedule for the conj up yet?
04:16	abaranosky	it's friggin weird that the conference is in two weeks but no talk schedule up yet
04:49	poppingtonic	there really isn't a talk schedule for the Conj?
04:51	abaranosky	do you see one? http://clojure-conj.org/
05:07	poppingtonic	http://lanyrd.com/2013/clojureconj/schedule/
05:21	poppingtonic	abranosky, http://lanyrd.com/2013/clojureconj/schedule/
05:27	ddellacosta	anyone set anything up in emacs nrepl where you can save a different history for cljs repl vs. clj repl?
05:27	ddellacosta	have no idea if it is even possible, but that would be so handy
05:27	john2x	is it possible to colorize the output of terminal `lein repl`?
05:28	john2x	or an alternative repl, like ipython/bpython
06:56	bordatoue	could anyone tell me how to catch clojure runtime exception; for example if type something like (map + [1 [2] 3]) I need to catch ClassCastException thrown when map is evaluated.
06:59	pyrtsa	,(try (map + [1 [2] 3]) (catch ClassCastException e "oops."))
06:59	clojurebot	pyrtsa: Huh?
06:59	pyrtsa	Doh.
07:00	bordatoue	pyrtsa: try catch doesn't seem to work
07:01	pyrtsa	Interesting.
07:02	bordatoue	I think it is wrapping RTE into something else
07:03	pyrtsa	No, even finally fails to.
07:03	pyrtsa	...to evaluate.
07:03	pyrtsa	,(try (map + [1 [2] 3]) (finally "oops."))
07:03	clojurebot	pyrtsa: Titim gan éirí ort.
07:05	bordatoue	nice, I would be interested to see a solution. I am using clojure 5
07:07	pyrtsa	Oh, actually I was wrong. Finally works just fine (when you do a side effect in it.)
07:09	bordatoue	pyrtsa: so is it the try catch not working , even with side effect
07:09	pyrtsa	Ha! Now I know.
07:09	pyrtsa	It's because map is lazy.
07:10	pyrtsa	The function call is only evaluated after the (try ...) form.
07:10	pyrtsa	,(first (map + [1 [2] 3]))
07:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.PersistentVector to java.lang.Number>
07:10	pyrtsa	And...
07:10	pyrtsa	,(try (first (map + [1 [2] 3])) (catch ClassCastException e "oops"))
07:10	clojurebot	pyrtsa: No entiendo
07:10	pyrtsa	Doh, again. X-)
07:11	pyrtsa	(try (first (map + [1 [2] 3])) (catch ClassCastException e "oops"))
07:11	pyrtsa	,(try (first (map + [1 [2] 3])) (catch ClassCastException e "oops"))
07:11	clojurebot	pyrtsa: No entiendo
07:12	pyrtsa	Ok, clojurebot is not nice with this. It catches the exception just okay on the REPL.
07:12	pyrtsa	bordatoue: So the reason is, the result of (map ...) is only evaluated when being printed. And that's too late for the try block to handle.
07:13	bordatoue	pyrtsa: I saw it, so do you think it is because of lazy eval
07:13	pyrtsa	,(let [_ (map + [1 [2] 3])] "this works because of lazy eval")
07:13	clojurebot	"this works because of lazy eval"
07:14	pyrtsa	map uses chunks of 32 by default, so that's why my example with (first ...) also threw the exception.
07:15	bordatoue	when i added doall it seems to workk
07:15	bordatoue	pyrtsa: thanks
07:15	pyrtsa	Yeah, doall forces it to evaluate. Cool.
08:12	poppingtonic	wow...the clojuredocs blog is dead :( http://clojuredocs.wordpress.com/
09:19	cemerick	dnolen: we've already talked about how source maps / incr compilation are difficult to test in an automated way, but I wonder if you could e.g. update https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Running-the-tests at some point to include an old-school test plan for those features? I still think you're the only one that knows how they're actually supposed to work. :-)
09:20	dnolen	cemerick: I've added three blank test files for compiler, analyzer, and closure - largely because of my frustration with closure.clj
09:21	dnolen	cemerick: we need tests, I honestly understand the design of closure.clj the least
09:21	dnolen	so that would be a good place to start
09:22	cemerick	dnolen: blank test files? You mean in the repo under /test?
09:23	cemerick	dnolen: closure.clj is...odd. :-) It's actually the bit I grok the most :-P
09:23	cemerick	ended up picking through it pretty closely at one point for REPL stuff and the :libs change, etc
09:26	dnolen	cemerick: yes, under test/.
09:30	dnolen	cemerick: updated the wiki to mention running `lein test`, not sure what more there is to say at this point :)
10:07	gfredericks	if I'm trying to optimize by working with primitives, using definline should make in unnecessary to typehint the args/return-value of the inline functions, correct?
10:15	clgv	gfredericks: if it is inlined yes
10:15	clgv	gfredericks: in other cases you can't use the primitive optimization with standard clojure anyway
10:16	clgv	gfredericks: I mean when you pass along the function as parameter
10:24	devn	yay for simple-check
10:24	devn	finding yet another bug without making me "brane good"
10:34	ubikation	hey I'm having a lot of trouble getting used to the emacs/cider workflow. specifically I can't even seem to get C-M-x to execute the pregenerated -main function... what am I doing wrong?
10:35	llasram	ubikation: Is the issue that evaluation of a form != execution of the function that form defines?
10:36	ubikation	llasram: yes, I believe so.
10:36	llasram	I usually just call functions from the REPL
10:37	llasram	If there's a block of things I have just for dev, I might put it in a `comment` form, and which then lets you use C-M-x etc to evaluate the form
10:37	llasram	(the form in the `comment` form -- not the `comment` itself, obviously)
10:38	ubikation	I'm getting this: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: -main in this context, compiling:(/tmp/form-init6913950184920876258.clj:1:1)
10:44	gfredericks	clgv: right
10:45	llasram	ubikation: Probably your REPL is still in the `user` namespace
10:45	llasram	You need to either `require` your namespace into `user`, or just switch the REPL to the namespace you're working on
10:46	llasram	ubikation: Easiest default bindings for the latter are C-c M-n w/in the file for the namespace you want to visit
10:46	ubikation	what tutorial would you recommend? I've been looking online and I can't seem to find a current one about cider.
10:47	ubikation	llasram: thank you!
10:49	llasram	np. Tutorials though -- good question. I'd have thought clojure-doc.org would have a good one, but I don't see anything which seems like the right level
10:49	llasram	I think the best suggestion I have is just cider's documented key bindings, which definitely isn't a great starting point :-/
10:59	ubikation	what does ->> mean? what is it's name?
10:59	mdrogalis	Thread-last.
10:59	mdrogalis	Takes x and 'threads' it through the end of each form.
10:59	mdrogalis	,(->> 1 inc dec)
10:59	clojurebot	1
11:01	joegallo_	,(let [m {:foo 1}] (->> m (assoc :bar 2) (dissoc :foo)))
11:01	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative>
11:01	joegallo_	derp, that was a thread-first example
11:01	joegallo_	i'm a moron
11:01	joegallo_	thread-last is really good for stuff with seqs, let me redo that
11:01	mdrogalis	:)
11:02	joegallo_	,(let [s (range 10)] (->> s (map inc) (filter even?) (take 3)))
11:02	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
11:02	joegallo_	you can imagine that the result from each expression is being inserted (threaded, you might say!) as the last argument into the next expression...
11:03	joegallo_	it allows you to take something like this (foo (bar (baz (quux blah)))) and flip it inside out (->> blah quux baz bar foo)
11:10	mynomoto	Is there an easy way to get the file name from a namespace? I know that I could use bultitude to get a list of files and find a match, but I would like to know if there is another way.
11:10	llasram	mynomoto: What's your higher-level goal?
11:13	mynomoto	llasram: I have a library that finds repetitions in code: https://github.com/mynomoto/repetition-hunter and it needs to read the source file. But it only finds the source if it is under src/ in the way I wrote it. I want to make it more generic.
11:14	llasram	Interesting
11:14	llasram	Well, vars in the namespace have the source files they came from as `:file` metadata
11:15	llasram	Which might be as good as you can get, since -- although uncommon -- a namespace may be implemented across multiple files
11:17	mynomoto	Yes, I saw this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13955580/in-clojure-how-do-i-get-the-file-name-of-the-current-namespace But, then I would need to find a var in the namespace to find the file. Or ask the user to provide it.
11:18	llasram	mynomoto: The `ns-map` function will return a map of all names to vars for the namespace
11:19	llasram	,(->> 'clojure.core the-ns ns-map vals (map (comp :file meta)) distinct)
11:19	clojurebot	("clojure/core.clj" nil "clojure/genclass.clj" "clojure/core_deftype.clj" "clojure/gvec.clj" ...)
11:20	llasram	Huh, `nil`
11:20	llasram	Probably because clojure.core
11:21	mynomoto	llasram: Thank you. I think that will work. Unless the user has no vars in the ns :)
11:22	mynomoto	Is there a good reason to have clojure files outside src/ or test/?
11:22	llasram	I've got one project with source files in a top-level `examples` directory
11:23	ddellacosta	mynomoto: I think leiningen lets you do whatever you want, doesn't it?
11:23	llasram	ddellacosta: they did say "good reason" :-)
11:23	joegallo_	llasram: ns-map returns java imports and stuff, too, which ends being a lot of the nils
11:24	llasram	joegallo_: Ahhh, didn't think of that
11:24	llasram	,(->> 'clojure.core the-ns ns-map vals (filter var?) (map (comp :file meta)) distinct)
11:24	clojurebot	("clojure/core.clj" "clojure/genclass.clj" "clojure/core_deftype.clj" "clojure/gvec.clj" nil ...)
11:24	llasram	nice
11:24	llasram	wait
11:24	llasram	still there!
11:24	llasram	Crazy
11:24	ddellacosta	llasram: I mean, I guess what I'm saying is, it's a convention, so you adhere to conventions for...all the reasons one adheres to conventions. Otherwise, you have to figure out the "good reasons."
11:24	joegallo_	well, i mean, there's still some crazy stuff because of it being clojure.core, too :)
11:24	llasram	ddellacosta: Oh, sure. Was just joking :-)
11:25	llasram	joegallo_: So it would seem
11:26	ddellacosta	llasram: yah, gotcha. ;-)
11:31	mynomoto	Thank you guys. I will try the ns-map solution.
11:41	hoangelos	I'm using clojure.java.sh/shell and calling a 3rd party command-line application that requires the password to be passed in via command-line. If there's an error the command and the options get returned in the log. I'm trying to figure out how to stop the library from doing that.
11:41	hoangelos	sorry clojure.java.shell/sh, but same issue
11:42	TimMc	"requires the password to be passed in via command-line" makes me want to strangle puppies
11:43	TimMc	Do you have any alternative? All command line arguments are visible to all users on the system, including reduced-permission accounts.
11:44	TimMc	(I've had an intrusion on my system that only compromised a guest account, but it still could have seen command line arguments and potentially used that to escalate privileges.)
11:44	hoangelos	TimMc: you and me both...we have submitted this as bug to the library, but so far no
11:46	hoangelos	I understand why this is bad, but need that script. and so what I'm trying to do is squelch the logging at least so it's not in the logs. I realize that anyone with access to the account could see it in the bash history
11:46	jcromartie	hoangelos: what does the logging?
11:47	jcromartie	and does it really show up in bash history?
11:47	hoangelos	jcromartie: Well the line is coming from clojure.java.shell
11:47	jcromartie	can you rebind out or err if it's using those?
11:47	jcromartie	sorry, not familiar with the code
11:50	hoangelos	jcromartie: We are using :out, so even if we could we need it.
11:50	jcromartie	I don't understand this part: "If there's an error the command and the options get returned in the log."
11:52	hoangelos	so let's say there's a coding error. (I haven't tested this with password wrong case) and the command line arg is wrong. It will print the full command-line including this password and print it to the log and/or the output depending on the situation.
11:53	jcromartie	what is "the log"
11:53	jcromartie	sorry, I might be dense
11:53	hoangelos	it's a log for the application
11:54	jcromartie	AFAIK clojure.java.shell/sh either throws an exception (thrown by the underlying Java lib) if the command doesn't exist, or else returns stdout and stderr as :out and :err keys in the result
11:54	jcromartie	it's up to you to log it
11:54	jcromartie	or not
11:54	jcromartie	it doesn't print anything
11:55	hoangelos	well this is clearly seen as an exception by clojure/java
11:55	TimMc	hoangelos: Good on you for filing a bug, by the way.
11:57	hoangelos	but this is a clearly ending up in the log, and my application isn't logging it. And there's a lot of stdout activity that isn't ending up in the log, but this one is.
11:58	jcromartie	huh
11:58	jcromartie	example?
11:59	muhoo	hoangelos: use conch maybe?
11:59	muhoo	jcromartie: ^
11:59	hoangelos	I am wrong. wow. they have created a wrapper that logs this. So this his another developers fault. And apparently I need more coffee. Well this suddenly is easier to solve.
12:00	jcromartie	I thought so
12:00	hoangelos	before my coffee everything is mysterious and full of paranoia
12:00	TimMc	hoangelos: So the third-party app is doing th elogging?
12:00	mdrogalis	I keep forgetting and remembering that it's Halloween. I get happier every time I remember.
12:00	TimMc	Or were you not calling sh directly?
12:01	TimMc	mdrogalis: I'm just glad the Red Sox won last night and not tonight. It gets crazy around here...
12:01	jcromartie	I was gonna say… I just basically wrote the same thing (before I realized clojure.java.shell existed) and have no idea how it would be possible
12:01	TimMc	(I only follow sports enough to make sure I don't end up in the middle of a riot.)
12:02	hoangelos	TimMc: no, the application was. they created an app that the developer said only caught the error, but also does logging, which I didn't notice before.
12:02	mdrogalis	TimMc: Feeling lazy, who's winning the series?
12:02	mdrogalis	I saw that obstruction call, heh
12:02	hoangelos	Sox already won
12:02	mdrogalis	Oh, its totally done? Wow.
12:02	mdrogalis	That was fast.
12:03	TimMc	I'm also glad not to be living near Fenway Stadium. :-P
12:03	mdrogalis	Fact.
12:04	TimMc	Last time, people Flipped. The. Fuck. Out.
12:05	teslanick	Last time, there was a riot at the college I went to when the Sox won the last game of the… playoffs? Is that what it's called?
12:09	mdrogalis	teslanick: World series, maybe
12:13	teslanick	It was after the last game of the American League Championship Series. The Red Sox and Yankees; the Sox lost the first three and won the last four, making it a dead heat until the end. Winning that put them in the world series. So the students decided to have a riot.
12:14	TimMc	"We are so happy! Let us destroy everything!"
12:14	TimMc	Someone was killed by a cop in Boston the last time the Sox won.
12:14	TimMc	Rubber bullet.
12:15	TimMc	So like I said, I'm glad it didn't coincide with Halloween.
12:22	jcromartie	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Victoria_Snelgrove
12:23	jcromartie	anyway
12:27	TimMc	(Oh, a pepper spray round, not a rubber bullet.)
12:36	silasdavis	There's no way to destructure the first and last element of a list longer than 2 right?
12:37	clgv	silasdavis: why not? if you now at compiletime how long it is...
12:37	clgv	,(let [[a b c d e f g h] (range)] h)
12:37	clojurebot	7
12:38	silasdavis	sorry that is the key point, I don't
12:38	clgv	silasdavis: destructuring always assumes you now the relevant part of the structure
12:38	clgv	silasdavis: just use `last` then
12:39	hlship	abaranosky: counterbalanced by the lack of types meaning you need to do more to specify what is passed in and returned. And in any language you don't need describe how your code works, you need to describe when and why you would call it.
12:44	mikerod	I have a map that I create at macro-expansion time. The map has a :name key that holds a symbol that is intended to be resolved later on when explicitly passed to `resolve`. This generally works, however, I have noticed at runtime, sometimes the symbol within the map is resolved already, when I was expected it to still be a symbol.
12:45	mikerod	so this would cause a failure if I expected a symbol, and call `resolve` on it obviously. Now, the suspect I have for this behavior is that I wrap an access to this map in a `filter` call, which is lazy.
12:46	mikerod	does any of that make any sense? I am surprised at the behavior of explicitly defining a map with a value that is a symbol at macro-expansion time, but then it "auto" resolving later, before I ever try to resolve it.
12:46	justin_smith	mikerod: wait, what would cause a symbol to be treated as a var? is this something that happens at macro-expansion?
12:47	justin_smith	if you construct it by calling (symbol "some-string") I think that would avoid implicit resolution
12:48	erdos	hello, i see that add-watch works with iref types agent/atom/var/ref, but does not work for delay/future/promise. They have 'realized? in return. Do you have an idea on simulating add-watch for them? I would like to do it without wrapping or timed polling. thanks.
12:49	justin_smith	erdos: they only get a value once, so you can create a thread that calls deref, then does what you want as soon as the deref completes
12:50	justin_smith	(future (do-something (deref some-future)))
12:50	justin_smith	where some-future is the one that you want to trigger the event
12:50	mikerod	justin_smith: I basically have a macro that takes an [defname othername] returns `(def ~defname {:name ~(symbol (str ns) (str othername))})
12:51	justin_smith	the deref will block until the value is available, and the value is guaranteed to never change again
12:51	mikerod	later on, I'd expect to see this map as a {:name some.ns/othername}
12:51	justin_smith	mikerod: move the call to symbol outside the ~
12:51	justin_smith	otherwise the macro sees the symbol, so tries to resolve it
12:52	justin_smith	`(def ~defname {:name (symvol ~(str ns) ~(str othername))})
12:52	justin_smith	s/v/b of course
12:53	mikerod	That makes sense, I didn't clearly write it I think though. During the macro-expansion time, this thing remains a symbol. It is runtime that it is getting implicitly resolved.
12:53	mikerod	Lets say it is more like:
12:53	trptcolin	tbaldridge / other core.async devs: i've got a patch to fix some cljs breakage on master. i can submit through jira if you want, but i'm assuming it's more expedient to just have you folks do it given the tiny-ness: https://gist.github.com/trptcolin/3e63ac0e9b9ec797b388
12:54	mikerod	(let [outmap (parse-map (symbol (str ns) (str othername))] `(def ~defname outmap))
12:54	trptcolin	lemme know if you want a jira ticket anyway
12:54	tbaldridge	trptcolin: yeah a simple post of this gist to a JIRA ticket would be nice. I work through as many bugs as I can each Friday, so I can get this fixed in the morning.
12:54	mikerod	(defn parse-map [sym] {:name sym})
12:55	trptcolin	ok
12:55	mikerod	forgot a ~ up there `(def ~defname ~outmap)
13:01	justin_smith	mikerod: ok, then I really don't know what isn't working there
13:01	justin_smith	sorry
13:03	mikerod	justin_smith: most of the time, when I look at the map later, I see an unresolved symbol. I think it was when I switched one statement from `filterv` to `filter` (being called on a collection involving this map at macro-expansion time) I started seeing it implicitly resolved.
13:04	TimMc	hyPiRion: In honor of Halloween, I might do a little work on the Clojure->Swearjure compiler tonight.
13:05	TimMc	I'd love to be able to mechanically convert something like this https://gist.github.com/timmc/7252229 into swj.
13:08	hyPiRion	TimMc: oh sweet
13:09	hyPiRion	TimMc: I was kind of tempted to write a Swearjure interpreter in C, just to see how bad it would be.
13:14	TimMc	yikes
13:15	trptcolin	uhhhh, does jira have a new feature where it automatically assigns tickets to Rich? I definitely didn't select him as the Assignee
13:16	trptcolin	rhickey please don't burn my house down, i don't expect you to necessarily handle this patch.
13:23	whilo	tbaldridge: what is the proper way to send input to clojure-py? i am using the send to interpreter command from python-mode in emacs, but it seems to break with line-breaks, i have to put all expressions on one line
13:28	Jarda	anyone have any idea why this happens:
13:28	Jarda	http://pastie.org/8445945
13:28	Jarda	fresh checkout of clojurescript from master
13:32	timsg	dnolen: I remember there's something sketchy about using recur in a core.match statement, how does that work again?
13:33	Bronsa	Jarda: you have an older version of tools.reader in your classpath
13:34	dnolen	timsg: you'll lose code size optimization
13:34	Jarda	Bronsa: aha
13:34	timsg	dnolen: how bad is that? I remember there's some exponential growth, but I forget what it's exponential on
13:35	dnolen	timsg: pattern matching will always generate exponential code, but it'll be worse
13:35	timsg	dnolen: hm, thanks
13:36	dnolen	timsg: I'll probably change core.match to a state machine a la core.async at some point but not in the near future.
13:36	Jarda	hmm.. So I should be able to run clojurescript tests with lein test-all right?
13:36	Jarda	I'm getting Could not find artifact org.clojure:clojure:jar:1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT in cloja at clojure.lang.Compiler.analyzeSeq(Compiler.java:6548) │rs (https://clojars.org/repo/)
13:37	Jarda	oops, paste fail
13:37	Jarda	but anyhow, 1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT can't be found
13:38	timsg	dnolen: yeah, I'm trying to think of a way to do moderately complicated low-level loops without going crazy; core.match seems like it might meet many cases because it lays out the logic in a matrix-ish way that's easy on the eyes. Since you mentioned it I've really been missing named loops
13:46	dobry-den	timsg: so there's an issue with this?: (loop [x 1] (match x [1] (recur (inc x))))
13:48	dnolen	Jarda: are you trying to run the ClojureScript tests in the ClojureScript repo?
13:49	timsg	dobry-den: yeah, I think the expanded code size gets hairy as you add cases
13:50	timsg	dobry-den: I guess that has to be pretty extreme before it's worth caring about, but I hear it gets pretty extreme fast
13:52	dobry-den	ive built a few complicated state machines with go-loop/recur and nested conds this week. i never looked into core.match until i read yalls convo.
13:53	dobry-den	im gonna give it a shot and see what code it generates because it looks much better than my daisychain of cond/else
13:53	timsg	dobry-den: cool, I'd be interested how that goes. yeah match is really pretty
13:54	TimMc	I can't wait for core.match to reach 1.0.
14:03	patrkris	there's a quote attributed to Timothy Baldridge that says someting like "Test systems - not functions"... where does he say/write that?
14:03	mdrogalis	In #datomic to me lol
14:03	bbloom	patrkris: tbaldridge hangs out in here
14:04	mdrogalis	Chat logs are fair game to pick out brilliant quotes from. :)
14:04	patrkris	ah... I thought he called himself halgari here (like he does on github) :D
14:06	patrkris	mdrogalis: it's exactly your blogpost that makes me ask :) but cool
14:13	patchwork	If I declare a function inside a defn in a (letfn …) does that function get created every time I call the function? Or is there some optimization for that?
14:13	bbloom	when the code is compiled, it will create a java class. on subsequent runs, the function's class will be instantiated via new
14:13	bbloom	irrc
14:13	bbloom	iirc* rather
14:14	bbloom	either way, don't worry about it :-)
14:14	also	total newbie question: what's wrong with (. (symbol "java.lang.System") nanoTime)
14:15	patchwork	bbloom: So isn't that creating an object each time the function is called, whereas if it was defn'd on its own it would not?
14:15	patchwork	I don't know why I worry about this stuff
14:16	bbloom	also: the symbol 'java.lang.System and the actual System class in the java.lang namespace, both have the same printed representation, but one is of type clojure.lang.Symbol and the other is of type java.lang.Class
14:17	bbloom	patchwork: except that if it was defn-ed on it's own, every reference to the symbol name is actually resolved via an extra indirection. something like this:
14:17	bbloom	,@#'clojure.core/inc
14:17	clojurebot	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@1ac1b8f>
14:17	bbloom	patchwork: the bottom line is that there is overhead for referring to names & the JIT is pretty good about eliminating that overhead, so don't worry about it
14:18	also	bbloom: so, given the signature (. Classname-symbol method-symbol args*), how do I satisfy the Classname-symbol argument?
14:18	patchwork	bbloom: cool, thanks!
14:18	ToxicFrog	also: compare the value of (type java.lang.System) and (type (symbol "java.lang.System"))
14:19	bbloom	ToxicFrog: the type function is kinda cruft, just use the clojure.core/class function
14:19	bbloom	also: dot is a special form, so the compilar interprets it's arguments specially
14:19	amalloy	patchwork: fwiw, allocating the object is not substantially more expensive than loading an already-allocated version of it
14:19	bbloom	also: you can just do (. java.lang.System nanotime)
14:20	bbloom	also: however for static functions, there is also a shorthand: (java.lang.System/nanotime)
14:20	also	bbloom: what about when the class name comes as a string?
14:20	also	that's what I'm trying to accomplish
14:20	bbloom	also: if the class name comes as a string, you have to use eval or reflection
14:21	bbloom	the interop forms are resolved at compile time
14:21	also	how am I supposed to interpret the docs that say that the dot special form takes a symbol?
14:22	bbloom	the same was you interpret a macro which takes a symbol: quoted
14:22	bbloom	,(quote (symbol "omg"))
14:22	clojurebot	(symbol "omg")
14:22	bbloom	,(identity (symbol "omg"))
14:22	clojurebot	omg
14:23	bbloom	,(quote not-defined)
14:23	clojurebot	not-defined
14:23	bbloom	,(identity not-defined)
14:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: not-defined in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:23	bbloom	also: does that help?
14:26	dnolen	also: your question is a bit vague, there's no reason to use a string in your particular example. If you really want to work with strings to do interop best to use existing Java reflection methods.
14:27	also	dnolen: yeah, sorry, it was just supposed to be a simple example
14:28	justin_smith	in a letfn inside a defn, if a function I create in the letfn does not reference any of the parameters of the defn, does it get re-evaluated on each run, or is it created once and reused?
14:28	patchwork	justin_smith: I just asked that question?
14:28	patchwork	I mean… !
14:28	justin_smith	oh
14:28	justin_smith	I didn't notice
14:28	patchwork	Apparently it doesn't matter
14:29	also	dnolen: i guess my real question was why (symbol "java.lang.System") wasn't used as a symbol when passed to the dot special form
14:29	also	bbloom: i think i just need to do a bit more reading on the basics
14:29	also	thanks!
14:30	bbloom	also: yup. if this is your first lisp, quoting/macros/etc need some time to get used to
14:30	dnolen	also: there's no reason for that to work. it would return a symbol, a symbol won't have that method.
14:30	dnolen	,(symbol "foo")
14:30	clojurebot	foo
14:30	dnolen	,(.bar (symbol "foo"))
14:30	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: bar for class clojure.lang.Symbol>
14:30	amalloy	justin_smith: it would be created each time, but that's not expensive. compiling it is expensive, but it only happens once; when the function is run it's just a call like: new my$fn()
14:31	also	dnolen: right, i thought the Classname-symbol argument to dot was supposed to be a symbol
14:31	also	and that (symbol "xxx") was a symbol
14:31	amalloy	also: a literal symbol
14:31	amalloy	(symbol "xxx") is a list which, when evaluated, produces a symbol
14:32	amalloy	. is a special form, so it chooses how and whether to evaluate its arguments
14:34	also	amalloy: thanks, that makes sense
14:34	also	is that necessarily true of special forms?
14:35	amalloy	all special forms may choose how to evaluate their arguments, yes. for example, fn is a special form - it wouldn't be much use if (fn [x] x) attempted to evaluate [x] instead of creating a new function!
14:41	also	amalloy: is the way that . requires a literal symbol described in the documentation?
14:42	also	amalloy: if i were writing a function that required a symbol as an argument, Classname-symbol seems like an appropriate name.
14:42	bbloom	(doc .)
14:42	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:42	bbloom	##(doc .)
14:42	lazybot	⇒ "Special: .; The instance member form works for both fields and methods.\n They all expand into calls to the dot operator at macroexpansion time."
14:42	bbloom	notice it says "special"
14:42	bbloom	(doc defn)
14:42	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] prepost-map? ...] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] prepost-map? body) + ...]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata. prepost-map defines a map with optional keys :pre and :post that contain collections of pre or post conditions."
14:42	bbloom	##(doc defn)
14:42	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] prepost-map? body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] prepost-map? body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var m... https://www.refheap.com/20328
14:42	bbloom	notice it says "macro"
14:42	bbloom	##(doc inc)
14:43	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
14:43	bbloom	also: notice it doesn't say anything
14:43	bbloom	macros and special forms treat their arugments as unevaluated
14:43	bbloom	that's just standard lisp-isms, so it's a perfectly reasonable doc string for people who understand how the evaluation process works
14:43	bbloom	as a general rule, clojure assumes the people reading the doc strings understand the fundamentals & doesn't try to cover every topic in every docstring
14:44	also	bbloom: so the key would be that it doesn't actually say that it's evaluated
14:44	bbloom	also: that's just a given though, it's a special form...
14:44	also	bbloom: yeah, i assume the docs are good, but i just don't understand them
14:45	bbloom	also: i understand that you don't understand them :-P i'm just trying to point out that you need a better foundation before those docs make perfect sense
14:47	also	bbloom: and i now notice that it seems to be pretty clear when the forms actually are evaluated, like the bodies of if and let
14:47	also	so i think that's what i was missing
14:47	clgv	how is that possible? (def a (org.jfree.chart.axis.NumberAxis.)) (def b (org.jfree.chart.axis.NumberAxis.)) (= a b) => true
14:47	bbloom	also: there are examples here: http://clojure.org/java_interop#dot
14:47	llasram	clgv: Clojure `=` is not Java `=`. The latter is Clojure's `identical?`
14:48	also	bbloom: yeah, that's what i was reading. (doc .) points to there.
14:48	dnolen	clgv: = delegates to .equals
14:48	bbloom	also: yup. and the extended documentation describes how that special form interprets it's arguments
14:48	dnolen	if not IEquiv
14:48	clgv	dnolen: but it seems they both have the same hash
14:49	dnolen	clgv: anyways like llasram said, = is not identical? aka Java ==
14:49	clgv	ah ok. so I need access to the ref value
14:51	llasram	Ref value?
14:52	clgv	I think I can go with System/identityHashCode
14:54	llasram	OOC, what are you trying to do?
14:55	dnolen	reiddraper: does simple-check desugar into function calls?
14:56	reiddraper	dnolen: in what sense? the for-all macro?
14:56	dnolen	reiddraper: yes
14:56	clgv	llasram: I have a WeakHashMap for GUI components to store metadata and blindly believed it would hash based on identity
14:56	also	bbloom, amalloy, dnolen: thanks for the pointers, i understand the docs now :)
14:56	reiddraper	dnolen: yeah there's a for-all* that it desugars into
14:57	reiddraper	dnolen: https://github.com/reiddraper/simple-check/blob/bd18e434dd11ffda18b933615178e285c5ceef19/src/simple_check/properties.clj#L29-L65
15:03	Jarda	yes dnolen I'm running in clojurescript directory of a fresh checkout after lein install
15:03	dnolen	reiddraper: sweet, the fact that simple-check has shrinking is awesome, most property based testing libs don't seem to do this?
15:04	dnolen	Jarda: there are no lein tests to run as of yet, if you want to run the tests, just ./script/test from project root
15:04	reiddraper	dnolen: a few of the more mature ports do, but it's definitely not in all of them
15:04	reiddraper	dnolen: and yeah, imo, it's a really critical feature
15:05	reiddraper	simple-check actually does srhinking in a way that i think only the erlang library does, which allows shrinking to compose, which is really neat
15:07	clgv	llasram: I switched to guavas mapmaker for the map with weak keys
15:09	dnolen	reiddraper: that's pretty sweet. simple-check is very clean Clojure code, a ClojureScript port would be trivial ...
15:10	reiddraper	dnolen: thanks, cemerick actually has a cljx branch that I believe is working, https://github.com/cemerick/simple-check/tree/cljx
15:10	bitemyapp	reiddraper: what's different about simple-check vs. test.generative?
15:10	dnolen	bitemyapp: pretty sure test.generative doesn't do shrinking
15:10	bitemyapp	I must say, simple-check's API is pretty appealing if you've used Haskell before.
15:11	dnolen	reiddraper: oh, ok sweet!
15:11	dnolen	cemerick: working ^ ?
15:11	cemerick	dnolen: quite, yes; that's how I found the rseq bug on cljs vectors and sorted sets
15:11	dnolen	cemerick: damn
15:11	bitemyapp	too cool :)
15:11	reiddraper	bitemyapp: the main two differences are that simple-check is based on the naming/shape of haskell/erlang quickcheck, and as dnolen said, shrinking
15:12	cemerick	reiddraper is being modest
15:12	cemerick	reiddraper: I think you could produce a year's worth of killer talks on the fact that there's no shrinkers
15:12	hyPiRion	oh, the conj schedule is up
15:12	dnolen	reiddraper: will cljx branch get merged in?
15:13	dnolen	reiddraper: hmm, I guess not necessary? it's just a config thing?
15:13	dnolen	cemerick: yes?
15:14	cemerick	dnolen: which question are you asking me? :-P
15:14	bitemyapp	Manning Publications is having a sale right now. Hrm.
15:14	dnolen	cemerick: oh actually I guess not, does require changes
15:15	cemerick	dnolen: oh, changes vs. config. Yeah, the former. Integrates with clojurescript.test, does the macro thing in a portable way, etc.
15:15	cemerick	Some of my recent cljs patches have been in service of the cljx-ing of simple-check.
15:16	cemerick	I plan on beating the snot out of the cljs collections once 643 is done. I suspect dragons await.
15:17	reiddraper	:D
15:17	Jarda	dnolen: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Running-the-tests states I could run with lein test
15:19	dnolen	Jarda: only for the Compiler Infrastructure, which there are no tests for as of yet! all the main tests are against JS engines
15:19	Jarda	dnolen: ok :)
15:21	gfredericks	does anybody know why the numeric-keyword-literal fix got reverted?
15:21	gfredericks	stuarthalloway just said "at rich's suggestion" on the ML
15:22	gfredericks	isn't clear if that means the intention is now to be able to read such things, or if it might be fixed some other time/way
15:22	gfredericks	just curious
15:23	hiredman	gfredericks: seems like you are looking for information where there is only and opionfest
15:23	hiredman	an
15:25	gfredericks	hiredman: I missed all opinions
15:25	gfredericks	only discussion I've heard is that thread about java.jdbc which seemed devoid of opinions
15:25	gfredericks	unless you're just criticizing IRC in general
15:26	hiredman	gfredericks: I was joking
15:26	hyPiRion	oh right, the :1 keywords etc?
15:26	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yep
15:26	hyPiRion	so are they legal or not now?
15:26	gfredericks	there was a commit to unallow them
15:26	gfredericks	which was just recently reverted
15:26	hiredman	gfredericks: rich famously decried irc as an opionfest, which I imagine is why he doesn't spend much time here? so trying to get more information about his pronouncements on irc is kind of funny
15:27	technomancy	s/pronouncements/opinions/
15:27	gfredericks	hiredman: to be perfectly literal I have not laughed out loud at your joke, but I now have an appreciation for it that I didn't prior to your explanation. thank you.
15:28	gfredericks	pronouncement isn't a word ever used by the person doing the pronouncing, is it...
15:28	gfredericks	"Everybody listen, I have a pronouncement to make!"
15:28	hiredman	:)
15:29	gfredericks	who has enough irc logs to find out how often hiredman makes a smiley?
15:29	cemerick	gfredericks: may I have a link, sir?
15:30	gfredericks	cemerick: yes you may
15:30	hyPiRion	This one? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/249479ecebcb0cfca9e6a1d528e3d7f0b3ca7dc6
15:30	gfredericks	cemerick: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/HeFr_jeuTnE
15:30	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yep
15:31	cemerick	gfredericks: many thanks
15:31	cemerick	I haven't looked at the main ML in many months.
15:31	gfredericks	cemerick: such an opinionfest
15:32	cemerick	I'd say, "CARN-E-VAL!", but no one would get that, either.
15:32	brainproxy	in cljs, proper way to use apply in conjunction with an object's method?
15:32	brainproxy	naive attempt (apply (.-log js/console) [...])
15:36	dnolen	brainproxy: I would just use apply directly
15:36	dnolen	(.apply js/console.log js/console (into-array ...))
15:36	dnolen	brainproxy: could easily be cleaned up with a macro
15:37	dnolen	(mapply js/console log some-seq)
15:37	dnolen	hopefully with a better name 'o course
15:38	brainproxy	oh right, forgot I could do .apply
15:38	brainproxy	thanks
15:46	TimMc	gfredericks: 69 times since 2011-03-23
15:47	gfredericks	TimMc: that I did not expect
15:47	TimMc	If you read the grep output he looks like Mr. Sunshine.
15:48	TimMc	On closer inspection, however, many of the instances are in fact sarcastic. :-P
15:49	hiredman	what? no way, I am a delightful person, full of smiles and affirmations of hope.
15:50	TimMc	:)
15:52	gfredericks	clojurebot: hiredman is a delightful person, full of smiles and affirmations of hope
15:52	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:03	dobry-den	For anyone using evil-mode, when you're in Replace mode (R), does semicolon get inserted instead of replacing a character?
16:05	dobry-den	When trying to turn ";; Hello ;;" into ";;;;;;;;;;", I can't just hit R and spam ";". Truly a sore spot in my life
16:09	teslanick	gfredericks: When you tell clojurebot something, does he remember it?
16:09	llasram	Man, that is not a lot of Lightning Talk time for Clojure/conj
16:09	llasram	I wonder how they're going to do sign-ups
16:09	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurebot?
16:09	clojurebot	clojurebot has a lot of features
16:09	teslanick	clojurebot: hiredman?
16:09	clojurebot	hiredman is what will save us all
16:10	hiredman	I can only assume that was inferred somehow
16:11	teslanick	clojurebot: teslanick?
16:11	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:11	teslanick	:c
16:11	hiredman	hiredman is lazy => map is lazy => map is laziness => laziness is what will save us all => hiredman is what will save us all
16:12	teslanick	Your logic is unassailable.
16:12	llasram	Verified. The inferences work out.
16:13	llasram	If I want a lightning talk slot, I suppose I'll just need to make sure I show up very first thing each day...
16:55	dobry-den	I can't believe people worked with Java bytebuffers before ztellman created Gloss
16:55	dobry-den	I tried coming up with my own abstraction and nearly died without even reaching the yaks i was trying to shave
16:56	llasram	Well, depends on what you're doing with it
16:56	llasram	with them
16:56	dobry-den	conforming to some networking protocol defined in C datatypes and endian-swapping
16:57	llasram	Oh sure, gloss is great for that :-) Just meant raw ByteBuffers aren't so bad if you do have a different problem to solve
16:58	bitemyapp	ucb: howdy
16:59	ucb	bitemyapp: heyo
17:06	sritchie	technomancy: is there a way to specify custom prep tasks for production vs devel?
17:07	technomancy	sritchie: sure; you can use profiles for that
17:07	xeqi	llasram: last year you could email them to signup for lightenting talks before the conj, and then they mentioned it again at the beginning of the conj
17:07	sritchie	technomancy: does it default to "dev"? or do I always have to specify a profile?
17:07	llasram	xeqi: Hmmm. Might be worth e-mailing then...
17:07	llasram	xeqi: Thanks for mentioning it!
17:07	sritchie	technomancy: I've got a bunch of base dependencies,
17:08	sritchie	and want to add a prep task for production mode only
17:08	xeqi	llasram: thats what I did to make sure I had a slot, I think the others all contacted them during
17:08	sritchie	since (or (System/getenv "RING_ENV") "dev") in my config failed to resolve
17:08	xeqi	* did last year
17:08	sritchie	technomancy: on heroku
17:08	sritchie	technomancy: sorry, meaning, it didn't pick up the proper config variable
17:08	xeqi	bah, trying to use the clojurescript master as a checkout is breaking my sourcemaps
17:09	technomancy	sritchie: you can put :prep-tasks in the :production or :dev profile
17:10	sritchie	technomancy: if I have dependencies in there, when I run "lein with-profile dev repl", none of my deps are around
17:11	technomancy	right; yes
17:11	sritchie	technomancy: we just upgraded to http-kit and uberjar, and are seeing some serious slowdown issues :)
17:11	sritchie	just trying to debug
17:11	sritchie	the app is hogging memory like crazy all of a sudden
17:12	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_LQYkSsR1s
17:14	ucb	bitemyapp: nice!
17:19	Jarda	oh yeah.
17:20	Jarda	spent some time digging around clojurescript codebase to fix source map output without checking it was already fixed between the version I was using and HEAD master :D
17:20	Jarda	well, now I find my way around the code
17:21	bitemyapp	this problem just changed from a 2-reduce problem to a 4 or 5 reduce problem. This is getting close to the earlier 7-reduce problem I was working on.
17:24	dnolen	Jarda: which problem around source maps?
17:24	llasram	bitemyapp: Is that in the sense of iterated reductions over a collection?
17:25	Jarda	dnolen: if I specified full path for source map in project.clj it also specified the full filesystem path in the .js file (in the comment telling where source map is to be found)
17:25	bitemyapp	llasram: That's how many functions with a reduce in them that are in the call stack at its maximum depth that are involved in the problem.
17:26	bitemyapp	llasram: it's a rule of thumb I use for figuring out how complicated the bullshit I'm dealing with is getting.
17:26	dnolen	Jarda: oh right yes, that got fixed, it's relative to the file now
17:26	Jarda	dnolen: yes
17:26	Jarda	well now I need to find some other clojurescript issue to fix, so that this didn't go in vain :D
17:27	bitemyapp	for any curious, I'm working on migrations in Datomic. Apparently Cognitect assumes the rest of the world are ubermenschen like them and have no problem writing obnoxiously complicated Clojure code to reduce across the entire transaction log just to change your schema a little bit.
17:27	bitemyapp	I get that you can't avoid translating the entire history, but an API function that let you pass mapper/reducer functions and then automatically handled running through the tx-log and retransacting, preserving identity, would've saved me many hours of raging.
17:28	sritchie	oh boy...
17:28	sritchie	cljs compilation on heroku is taking like 5 minutes
17:28	noonian	anyone know why compojure routing might act differently from an uberjar as from lein run? I have a route that redirects on "/" that is hit from lein run but not from a running uberjar :/
17:28	bitemyapp	sritchie: that's pretty funny actually.
17:28	bitemyapp	noonian: show code.
17:28	sritchie	bitemyapp: that it's hanging so hard?
17:29	hiredman	noonian: rm -rf target/
17:29	bitemyapp	now I need to figure out how in the hell I'm supposed to map {:part :db.part/user, :idx -1000013} -> {-9223350046623220301 17592186045421
17:29	bitemyapp	noonian: lein clean
17:29	sritchie	bitemyapp: I wonder, is there some other recommended path,
17:29	sritchie	like compiling locally
17:29	bitemyapp	sritchie: yeah, I'm just imagining how hammered the poor worker must be.
17:29	sritchie	haha
17:30	sritchie	I mean, am I supposed to commit generated cljs?
17:30	bitemyapp	sritchie: I would personally AOT and check in the compilation artifact into git.
17:30	llasram	bitemyapp: Going to be at Conj, to rant at them in person?
17:30	Jarda	I commit them
17:30	bitemyapp	sritchie: sure.
17:30	bitemyapp	llasram: when is the conj again?
17:30	sritchie	technomancy: concur with bitemyapp?
17:30	llasram	bitemyapp: Starts Nov 14th, so 2 weeks out
17:31	bitemyapp	sritchie: the more "industrial" way to handle such compilation artifacts is to upload them to CDN and point URLs at the CDN.
17:31	sritchie	oh
17:31	sritchie	okay, yeah
17:31	sritchie	have the CI server do that or something
17:31	noonian	bitemyapp: here is a code snippet, redirects fine and prints output from lein run: https://www.refheap.com/20339
17:31	bitemyapp	sritchie: I do a lot of web dev, unless your compilation artifact is >30MB just push it.
17:31	llasram	Speaking of Conj -- sritchie: any interest in a Hadoop unsession at the Conj?
17:31	noonian	i just tried after rm -rf'ing target and same thing
17:31	sritchie	yeah, I'd be interested
17:31	bitemyapp	llasram: is there going to be a Datomic user support group where I can cry into my whiskey?
17:32	llasram	bitemyapp: I don't see that on the schedule yet...
17:32	llasram	You should probably e-mail the organizers
17:32	bitemyapp	time-travelling tears unsession.
17:33	llasram	Oh, man, only 4 unsession rooms. Crazy town
17:33	bitemyapp	I'm considering going to the conj, I haven't made any plans or bought any tickets yet though.
17:34	llasram	They'd entirely sold out for a bit, but I think add some more late reg tickets
17:34	bitemyapp	See, part of the reason I hadn't made any plans is because I got shanghai'd by this fucking project.
17:36	bitemyapp	ucb: http://radagast.bandcamp.com/
17:40	myguidingstar	hi all, I want to use opennlp.tools.stemmer to reduce a word to its stem, something like this (stem "goes") -> "go"
17:40	myguidingstar	the API is here https://opennlp.apache.org/documentation/1.5.3/apidocs/opennlp-tools/opennlp/tools/stemmer/Stemmer.html
17:40	llasram	sritchie: Added you as hosting, if that wasn't presumptuous: https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/wiki/Clojure-conj-2013-Unsessions#clojure--hadoop
17:40	klokbaske	cemerick (and others): is it possible, using austin, to do REPL exploration of any webpage?
17:41	klokbaske	like an alternative to the js repl of the browser
17:41	myguidingstar	how can I call that? I don't get java =.=
17:43	klokbaske	myguidingstar: java interop is described here: http://clojure.org/java_interop
17:43	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: java interop is more thoroughly explained here: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/interop.html
17:44	klokbaske	so it would be something like (.stem my-stem my-char-sequence) i suppose
17:47	sritchie	llasram: haha, okay
17:50	yeoj___	i'm working with resultset-seq, it returns a sequence of structmaps. is there anyway to make it return a sequence of arrays like clojure.java.jdbc/query with :as-arrays? true ?
17:52	brehaut	structmaps wow
17:53	yeoj___	hmm. i'm not sure what that means.
17:53	brehaut	it means that were deprecated ages ago, and its surprising to see them in the wild
17:53	yeoj___	ah, ok. it's from a blog post.
17:53	brehaut	even if the wild is a function in core that was added in 1.0
17:54	yeoj___	i'm trying to write a massive database table to a text file, and i want to have everything lazy so i don't consume loads of memory.
17:55	brehaut	im pretty sure the clojure.core.jdbc query functions provide you the contents lazily
17:55	yeoj___	yeah, i'm was using 2gb of memory before i canceled it.
17:55	brehaut	you just need to do all your processing within the query scope
17:57	yeoj___	brehaut: could you have a look here if you have a moment https://www.refheap.com/20342
17:58	yeoj___	i'm not sure why it was using 2gb of memory... it's about a 6gb table but i'm trying to write it for any type of input table. I really want to be conscious of mem usage.
17:58	bitemyapp	that's a good question.
17:59	bitemyapp	yeoj___: whoa sonny, what's with the (rest ...)?
17:59	bitemyapp	oh wait, n/m
17:59	bitemyapp	you got it right
17:59	yeoj___	yeah, i'm trying to skip the header row with :as-arrays? true
18:00	yeoj___	it's still using loads of memory... if i run it right now on my dev box it consumes everything.
18:00	bitemyapp	yeoj___: there's a pretty straight-forward path to profiling this, fire it up with YourKit or JVisualVM
18:00	bitemyapp	yeoj___: find out who is using all that memory
18:00	yeoj___	ok, i'll give that a try.
18:01	bitemyapp	I suspect the JDBC stuff isn't being very lazy.
18:01	bitemyapp	I could be wrong.
18:01	yeoj___	i think there is specific issues with some jdbc drivers too
18:01	turbofail	if you want to process stuff lazily in clojure.java.jdbc/query, you have to do it in a result-set fn
18:01	turbofail	the default result-set function is doall
18:02	amalloy	yeah, isn't that what with-query-results is for?
18:02	yeoj___	turbofail: ahhhh that makes sense. so i can just set :result-set-fn to doseq ?
18:02	gfredericks	amalloy: deprecated because macromagical
18:02	bitemyapp	yeoj___: I think resultset-seq got deprecated and removed, possibly in favor in result-set-seq.
18:02	amalloy	gfredericks: man, i am never upgrading jdbc
18:02	bitemyapp	amalloy: why do you think Korma hasn't?
18:03	bitemyapp	we're rebels!
18:03	gfredericks	amalloy: I like the new api better for the most part
18:03	amalloy	because nobody upgrades korma either?
18:03	bitemyapp	:(
18:03	turbofail	yeoj___: yeah. you'll have to put all your doseq stuff inside a function
18:03	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm curious if whathisface's scopes lib could be combined with java.jdbc well
18:03	yeoj___	turbofail: ok i'll try that for a bit. would make sense to learn a bit about profiling too rathre than crashing my dev box every run.
18:04	bitemyapp	https://clojars.org/pjstadig/scopes https://clojars.org/pjstadig/scopes-magic
18:04	gfredericks	yes that
18:04	amalloy	i thought you hated ORMs and magic, bitemyapp. what are you doing maintaining korma?
18:04	gfredericks	I'd like to be able to open whatever resources I want during an http request and have them auto-closed when the response finishes
18:05	bitemyapp	Hilarious: https://github.com/pjstadig/scopes-magic/blob/master/src/data_readers.clj
18:05	gfredericks	bitemyapp: yeah pjstadig and I got into a nasty spat about that and our friendship has never recovered
18:05	bitemyapp	amalloy: Korma isn't that magical unless you use it in muggle-mode.
18:05	bitemyapp	amalloy: also I understand how it works, so I'm comfortable with it.
18:06	bitemyapp	it's just transforming a map that gets spat out into SQL at the end. No big. I'd definitely strip it down given my druthers though.
18:06	bitemyapp	I keep musing about a "micro-Korma"
18:06	bitemyapp	no connection pooling built in, that sort of thing.
18:06	myguidingstar	bitemyapp, sorry but I still don't understand what they do on opennlp.tools.stemmer How can I call the method "stem"?
18:07	bitemyapp	well first, is it an instance method or static?
18:07	gfredericks	bitemyapp: honeysql?
18:07	bitemyapp	gfredericks: not a fan. I like the automatic relationship traversal in Korma.
18:07	bitemyapp	that nice-ness is part of why I like Datomic and Datalog, incidentally.
18:08	bitemyapp	although Datalog is much more powerful.
18:08	myguidingstar	hmm, it's not clear https://opennlp.apache.org/documentation/1.5.3/apidocs/opennlp-tools/opennlp/tools/stemmer/Stemmer.html
18:08	bitemyapp	I should just write a Datalog->SQL bridge and be done with it.
18:08	myguidingstar	all I can see is "public interface Stemmer"
18:08	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: if the documentation sucks, read the code.
18:08	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: code don't lie.
18:08	bitemyapp	until it does.
18:09	muhoo	hmm lein repl :headless :port xxxx ignores :port?
18:09	jkkramer	bitemyapp: i've got a lib based on honeysql that does relationship traversal too. releasing soon
18:09	myguidingstar	:( I just want to call that method against a string
18:09	muhoo	it seems to be insisting on the :port in the project.clj, not the one supplied on teh command line
18:10	bitemyapp	jkkramer: I look forward to ripping off your work.
18:11	amalloy	myguidingstar: Stemmer is an interface definition, not an implementation. it's saying "in order to count as a Stemmer, something must define how it does .stem()". you need an actual implementation of that contract in order to use its stemming
18:11	bitemyapp	AHHHHHHHHHHHH fuck.
18:12	amalloy	i don't see any particular implementation of Stemmer in that opennlp project's javadoc
18:14	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/opennlp-commits/201203.mbox/%3C20120326073356.B9F48238896F@eris.apache.org%3E
18:14	amalloy	there seems to be one at http://code.google.com/p/relevance-based-on-parse-trees/source/browse/src/main/java/opennlp/tools/stemmer/PorterStemmer.java?r=1
18:14	myguidingstar	thanks, I'm reading it, too
18:15	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5391840/stemming-english-words-with-lucene
18:15	mbarbieri	Hi, can you pleas e check if this https://www.refheap.com/20314 is the correct translation of this https://www.refheap.com/20313 ?
18:15	bitemyapp	myguidingstar: good, I'll go back to raging at my own stupidity then.
18:15	myguidingstar	you guys help me a lot
18:15	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: don't use zkoss.
18:16	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: don't translate shitty Java frameworks to Clojure.
18:16	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: just write Clojure.
18:16	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: behold, a fairly simple Clojure Ring web app! https://github.com/bitemyapp/neubite/
18:16	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: you have been rescued from Java framework Hell. Go forth and sin no more.
18:16	mbarbieri	bitemyapp: :) just testing some stuff, and have to use it for enterprisey apps
18:19	bitemyapp	mbarbieri: http://i.imgur.com/IT4qgnf.jpg
18:19	devn	Raynes: you around?
18:19	Raynes	devn: Yep.
18:19	devn	Raynes: how do i shot web?
18:20	biggbear	"java -jar <path to clojure.jar> script.clj" seems to execute slow. Around 5-6 secs
18:20	Raynes	I don't know how one can shot web.
18:20	devn	Raynes: but seriously, in conch -- i want the behavior from {:seq true} that I get with (programs ls), but with a proc
18:20	devn	like (sh/proc "git" "diff" :dir "/foo/bar" {:seq true})
18:20	bitemyapp	biggbear: don't do that.
18:20	devn	what's the right way to do that?
18:21	Raynes	devn: There are buckets and buckets of hax in place in conch.clj to make :seq true possible.
18:22	Raynes	You're not going to be able to easily replicate that with proc.
18:22	biggbear	<bitemyapp>: installing clojure from apt-get and seems to lack dependencies. What could be the fastest way to execute scripts?
18:23	noonian	biggbear: i would install leiningen and lein-exec
18:23	yeoj___	biggbear: are you usinging Leiningen ?
18:23	devn	Raynes: noted. I think I'll just use jgit. seems like the better option
18:24	bitemyapp	biggbear: you're not supposed to install Clojure, you install Leiningen.
18:24	biggbear	<noonian>, <yeoj___>: lein-exec. Ok good
18:24	bitemyapp	biggbear: Clojure is just a jar, a dependency. Leiningen is how you run, build, and setup Clojure projects.
18:25	noonian	biggbear: and lein-exec uses leiningen to run one-off scripts
18:25	yeoj___	biggbear: http://leiningen.org/#install (also check your package manager)
18:25	yeoj___	although i've recently learned that uberjar sucks with multiple jdbc drivers.
18:26	biggbear	thanks mates. lets test lein
18:27	technomancy	erhm
18:27	technomancy	lein-exec is kind of redundant these days
18:27	biggbear	redundant?
18:28	noonian	technomancy: can you use lein to run a script that has dependencies without creating a project?
18:28	technomancy	lein can be configured to do the same thing out of the box
18:28	technomancy	:aliases {"exec" ["run" "-m" "clojure.main/main" "-i"]}
18:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: lein-exec handles dependencies.
18:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: you just put them at the top of the script.
18:28	technomancy	oh, gotcha
18:28	Raynes	devn: Conch does fancy stuff to allow for lazy seqs of output. It constantly takes output and pipes it into a queue and the lazy seq reads from that queue. There is a lot of indirection because conch supports timing out a process and the only way to get stdout from a process that has already been killed is to have already read its stdout prior to killing it. As such, there is no way to just wait, timeout a process, and then read its stdout.
18:29	technomancy	that's more complicated then; you'd have to put calls to pomegranate at the top of the script
18:29	technomancy	or you could use the update-in task, but it gets messy
18:29	bitemyapp	.lein/profile.clj with pomegranate or lein-exec are pretty much the only way.
18:29	bitemyapp	and lein-exec's syntax for the dependencies is nicer, albeit less powerful, than pomegranate.
18:30	bitemyapp	I think realistcally, one should just live in a REPL, but you know, whatever.
18:30	bitemyapp	biggbear: you probably don't even need to run a script, but rather, just live in a REPL with some functions.
18:30	yeoj___	whats run with lein run ?
18:31	bitemyapp	main
18:33	biggbear	<bitemyapp>: yes a REPL open. im just doing some script to solve a problem. A very isolated problem, so i guess it is fast to just invoke lein-exec.
18:33	bitemyapp	biggbear: it's not that fast, just convenient.
18:33	bitemyapp	biggbear: a REPL is fastest.
18:33	bitemyapp	or a running service.
18:34	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/6664075
18:37	technomancy	lol pomegranate 0.0.13-SNAPSHOT
18:37	hiredman	works for me
18:37	hiredman	~works on my machine
18:37	clojurebot	http://haacked.com/images/haacked_com/WindowsLiveWriter/IConfigMapPathIsInaccessibleDueToItsProt_1446B/works-on-my-machine-starburst.png
18:38	hiredman	10000% times funnier since it doesn't load completely on my machine any more
18:38	technomancy	scientifically proven to work on some machine in a closet in a fish processing plant south of Tacoma
18:39	hiredman	I'm pretty sure that is all you need to get it published in a journal
18:40	technomancy	editors these days... you submit files without ns forms at the top and they don't even blink an eye
18:41	hiredman	I saw a clojure library today that did the think like clojure.core, where it had parts broken out in to different files, but all the same namespace, I sighed real hard
18:42	Jarda	ok guys I finally got v8 compiled on my computer, now clojurescripts ./script/test says Error: Could not find or load main class clojure.main
18:42	Jarda	any ideas?
18:43	Jarda	it's doing java -server -cp "$CLJSC_CP" clojure.main "$CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME/bin/cljsc.clj" "$@"
18:43	sritchie	technomancy: did you see my earlier comment about the lein profile not picking up en v variables resolved in project.clj?
18:43	Jarda	maybe it's that lain
18:44	Jarda	line
18:44	Jarda	but how the hell should I get java to find clojure.main globally
18:44	Bronsa	Jarda: just to make sure, did you run script/bootstrap?
18:45	Jarda	no, sorry. How do I suck this much reading documentation today
18:45	sritchie	technomancy: 92MB with uberjar, btw :)
18:45	technomancy	sritchie: no, what's up?
18:45	sritchie	in my project.clj, I've got this call:
18:45	sritchie	(or (System/getenv "RING_ENV") "dev")
18:46	Jarda	no, this page didn't state that was needed https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Running-the-tests
18:46	sritchie	to tune the lein cljsbuild once command
18:46	sritchie	and it resolves to "dev"
18:46	Bronsa	Jarda: it assumes you have the cljs repl already working, see https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
18:46	Jarda	Bronsa: oh, ok
18:46	technomancy	sritchie: yeah, don't do that. put the values you want in the appropriate profile.
18:46	sritchie	okay
18:47	sritchie	dev profile's picked up automatically?
18:47	Jarda	Bronsa: I've always just used clojurescript inside another project
18:47	Jarda	Bronsa: thanks
18:47	Bronsa	Jarda: np
18:47	technomancy	sritchie: dev profile is activated unless you specify otherwise (so not during git push)
18:48	sritchie	"not during git push" meaning, heroku overrides it?
18:49	technomancy	sritchie: right; typically it would be `lein with-profile production compile :all` or the uberjar equivalent
18:50	sritchie	okay, cool
18:50	sritchie	I had added: LEIN_BUILD_TASK: compile :all
18:50	sritchie	off of some old advice you had in a mailing list
18:51	technomancy	right now config vars are only visible at runtime unless you turn on a labs feature (which I advise against)
18:51	sritchie	okay, cool
18:52	sritchie	so setting that flag to "with-profile production compile :all" should be the way
18:54	devn	Raynes: got a dumb question for you
18:54	Raynes	devn: I've got a mediocre answer for you.
18:54	devn	Raynes: how do I request all the pages for something like repos/commits?
18:54	technomancy	sritchie: no, config vars are only visible at runtime unless you turn on a labs feature
18:55	devn	is that {:query "all_pages"}?
18:55	devn	or am i missing something?
18:55	Raynes	Are we suddenly talking about tentacles?
18:55	devn	hahaha yes sorry
18:55	Raynes	No worries. :P
18:55	devn	(context-switch!)
18:55	sritchie	technomancy: sorry to be so slow today - the thing I'm missing is, how can I flag the production profile for the default uberjar task?
18:55	Jarda	Bronsa: you don't happen to know how to fix this: http://o178.nor.fi/~jarda/test.out.txt
18:56	technomancy	sritchie: oh right; I forgot you switched over to uberjars. The :uberjar profile is what gets activated if you've got :uberjar-name
18:56	sritchie	ah! okay
18:57	Raynes	devn: Theoretically you should just be able to pass the :all-pages true arg
18:57	technomancy	for some of these things the docs are a bit weird because that's not really a heroku-specific thing; lein just does that automatically. but I don't know how often it's used outside heroku
18:57	Raynes	(user-repos "devn" {:all-pages true}) devn
18:58	sritchie	technomancy: thanks! cljs compiling. Going to stick with compiling it on the worker, unless anyone else (bitemyapp?) has best practices
18:58	sritchie	it feels like checking in the generated code is just a recipe for me to forget about changes
18:58	technomancy	you mean at dyno launch time?
18:59	technomancy	I haven't done cljs myself, but most people don't like that because they want dynos to launch quickly.
18:59	technomancy	for the typical app it makes sense to trade some deploy time for reduced launch time since launches happen more often and are sometimes user-facing
19:01	sritchie	technomancy: so that's a vote for just checking the generated js into CI?
19:01	technomancy	ymmv
19:01	technomancy	into CI?
19:01	technomancy	unless there's a strong reason not to, doing it at deploy time is the way to go
19:01	sritchie	technomancy: once I generate the JS from CLJS, I need to get the JS file into my project
19:02	Bronsa	Jarda: no idea, sorry
19:02	Jarda	Bronsa: ok, no problem
19:02	sritchie	at deploy time meaning, on my local machine -
19:02	Jarda	maybe I bug dnolen when he next time comes online
19:02	technomancy	no, I mean during git push
19:03	devn	Raynes: thanks dude
19:03	Raynes	devn: No problem, sir.
19:03	devn	Raynes: will this work with :since, do you know?
19:03	Raynes	devn: You're apparently using every lib I've ever made at the moment, so the least I can do is provide support.
19:03	devn	Raynes: haha -- i should be kind and add some docs for you
19:03	Raynes	devn: I'm actually not entirely sure how :all-pages works at all, so...
19:04	Raynes	:P
19:04	sritchie	technomancy: I guess I need to get some lunch, no idea why I'm finding this so confusing
19:04	sritchie	by during git push, you mean, on the heroku box, NOT during launch, but during git push
19:04	sritchie	right now, I'm doing it when the uberjar is created
19:04	technomancy	oh, ok; I misunderstood what "compiling it on the worker" meant
19:05	technomancy	on heroku "worker" typically means a dyno type that's hooked up to a queue
19:05	sritchie	technomancy: it takes 295 seconds to compile the cljs as a prep task for lein uberjar
19:05	technomancy	so yeah, what you're doing is fine
19:05	sritchie	technomancy: okay, so I'll just deal with the 5 minute launch time, I suppose
19:06	sritchie	perhaps it'd go faster if I :aot :all in this profile.
19:06	technomancy	launch time or deploy time?
19:06	sritchie	295 seconds in the prep-task for lein uberjar
19:06	sritchie	which I suppose is at deploy time
19:07	technomancy	right; the idea is better you stuck waiting than your users, which is what you'd get if you did it when the dyno launched
19:07	sritchie	ah, okay
19:07	sritchie	I see. so, this gets all the stuff ready, while I hang out in my terminal,
19:07	sritchie	then the dyno's ready to go
19:08	technomancy	right; your old code will still be available until you see "restarting" at the end of your push
19:09	sritchie	got it.
19:09	sritchie	thanks, makes sense now
19:09	sritchie	phew
19:09	technomancy	we could probably use better docs around cljs
19:09	technomancy	and the uberjar bit is hairy if you have an app already using lein run
19:11	sritchie	just a little new
19:13	sritchie	okay, added :aot :all to the uberjar profile
19:13	sritchie	technomancy: let's see what happens :)
19:13	sritchie	I finally set up a staging environment,
19:14	sritchie	so I'll be able to make more mistakes here
19:30	ltw	I'm on a team trying to build a micro-service architecture with Clojure and JRuby web apps, and other non-web Clojure applications. I'm trying to sort out what I could use for deployment of all of these things (Jetty / JBoss / Tomcat / ???). Can anyone steer me in the right direction on this please?
19:31	mtp	get the apps running individually under runit
19:31	technomancy	ltw: use jetty unless you have a reason not to
19:31	mtp	then use some other http disaggregator to front them
19:32	technomancy	if you want to get fancy later on and collapse them into one JVM you can do it, but don't bother until you know you have a memory shortage
19:32	ltw	technomancy: I was right about to ask that question. Nice, thanks.
19:33	ltw	mtp: not sure what you mean by http disaggregator?
19:33	mtp	well
19:34	mtp	nginx takes an http request and delivers it to a backend
19:34	mtp	that's sorta what i mean
19:34	ltw	mtp: ah, right. yeah, that's cool.
19:34	geoffs	Hey, I'm trying to compile a clojure program with a java library that expects to be running on a lego mindstorms device. The compilation fails because the static initializers for some classes in the java library are getting run, and they're looking for devices in /dev that don't exist. Is there any way around this?
19:35	ltw	mtp + technomancy: thanks, I'll head down that path.
19:35	ltw	well, standing up the separate jetty services
19:35	mtp	runit is truly amazing, by the by
19:36	ltw	mtp: never heard of it, might have to dig into it
19:36	ltw	what's the big win?
19:36	mtp	you never have to write an init script again
19:36	mtp	everything comes up on boot and is respawned if it dies
19:36	hiredman	geoffs: while you'll be able to get around that issue by reflectively loading the class, I doubt you will ever have a good experience there, my understanding is the "java" environment for mindstorms is 1.4 while clojure requires at least 1.5 or 5
19:37	ieure	mtp, Okay but like real talk, do you say it "ahr-unit" or "run-it"
19:37	mtp	the latter :(
19:37	ieure	Well balls to that
19:37	hiredman	but I could be wrong
19:37	ltw	mtp: oh, that does sound nice. Unfortunately we've got this sort-of homegrown system for initializing all our production boxes that is truly bloody awful
19:37	mtp	i could see 'r init'
19:37	technomancy	ieure: "gun-icorn"
19:37	mtp	ltw maybe it could benefit from some runit :)
19:37	geoffs	hiredman: hmmm, I hadn't even considered that might be an issue... I'll have to look into that!
19:37	hiredman	http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/embedded/downloads/javase/javaseemeddedev3-1982511.html I guess I am?
19:38	ieure	technomancy, Yeah, I've been saying that for ages.
19:38	ltw	mtp: i think it could benefit from some gratuitous rm -rf, but that's besides the point
19:38	mtp	:)
19:38	ltw	I'll see if I can get it going though
19:38	hiredman	geoffs: basically you'll need to not include direct references to the classes, use Class/forName to load the class at runtime, use reflection to invoke stuff
19:39	geoffs	hiredman: that sounds workable if not exactly fun :)
19:39	geoffs	it seems strange though that static initializers would get run during compilation... Any idea why that happens?
19:40	technomancy	geoffs: clojure compilation is runtime
19:40	hiredman	geoffs: static inits run when classes are loaded, clojure runs code as it is compiled (a "same world" compiler), so classes will get loaded
19:41	geoffs	technomancy: So that's true for AOT compilation as well then?
19:41	technomancy	it's much simpler but means you can't do crazy things like put file access in static initializers
19:41	geoffs	fair enough
19:41	sritchie	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/tools/reader/reader_types/Reader
19:41	sritchie	oh boy...
19:41	sritchie	another one,
19:41	sritchie	after AOT compilation
19:42	technomancy	geoffs: AOT compilation is just running the defs with compile-files bound to true, which causes .class files to get written to disk instead of just loaded into memory
19:42	hiredman	geoffs: yes, aot compilation is the same as other ways of running clojure code (repl, what have you) it just writes the class files to disk
19:43	geoffs	Interesting. So if I could avoid the AOT compilation and just run my clojure directly on the EV3 I wouldn't have this problem...
19:43	hiredman	correct
19:44	hiredman	aot compilation is not something you really do unless under duress
19:44	Bronsa	sritchie: seangrov1 had the same exception while AOT compiling
19:44	technomancy	well, often you'd do it before "deployment" given that launch would take longer on an embedded system without AOT
19:44	technomancy	but in this case yeah, skip it
19:45	geoffs	hiredman: so it seems like my next problem is to get leiningen on to the EV3... sounds like fun!
19:45	Bronsa	sritchie: can you tell me what you're trying to AOT compile?
19:45	technomancy	geoffs: no, just ship an uberjar over
19:45	hiredman	geoffs: woa, no, no reason to do that
19:45	hiredman	yeah, uberjar and ship it
19:45	technomancy	geoffs: ideally you could embed nrepl and connect from your computor
19:46	hiredman	lein is a build tool, like if you where using maven, why would you put that on the ev3?
19:46	geoffs	But when I uberjar the static initializers get run and it fails...
19:46	technomancy	geoffs: get rid of :main
19:46	sritchie	Bronsa: sure;
19:46	sritchie	sorry, had to put out one quick fire
19:46	sritchie	Bronsa: you want the list of deps?
19:46	technomancy	geoffs: use clojure.main as your entry point
19:46	Bronsa	sritchie: yeah, to see if I can reproduce
19:47	geoffs	technomancy: Oh! And then I have a clojure repl?
19:47	technomancy	yeap
19:47	technomancy	geoffs: but hiredman raises a good point that it probably won't work with a 1.4 Java
19:47	sritchie	sure, one sec
19:47	geoffs	cool
19:47	geoffs	it's actually 1.7 java
19:47	technomancy	oh rad
19:47	technomancy	sounds like fun
19:47	geoffs	some oracle people are supporting the embedded stuff
19:48	geoffs	If you could, I'd bring it down to Seajure next week :)
19:48	geoffs	Maybe I can work something out...
19:48	technomancy	oh, where are you?
19:48	geoffs	bellingham
19:48	sritchie	Bronsa: here it is: https://gist.github.com/sritchie/7484bdb0b7cb5257725a
19:48	technomancy	ah, bit of a hike =)
19:49	Bronsa	sritchie: jesus christ.
19:49	sritchie	haha
19:49	technomancy	that'd make a sweet demo though
19:49	geoffs	that's why I only show up once every couple months :)
19:49	sritchie	Bronsa: going some serious cleanup on an older app
19:50	geoffs	hiredman: thanks for the help! I definitely learned something today
19:51	Bronsa	sritchie: I'll try and see if I can reproduce && see if it's a bug in tools.reader
19:51	geoffs	technomancy: so I wouldn't specify clojure.main as my main in the lein project.clj, I just specify it on the command line to invoke the uberjar, right?
19:51	sritchie	Bronsa: awesome, thanks. I'm trying to add that to exclusions now
19:51	technomancy	geoffs: if you can control the CLI invocation then yeah; best to specify it there
19:51	sritchie	Bronsa: nope, adding that exclusion doesn't help
19:52	geoffs	yeah, that's easy. I'm gonna try it now!
19:53	sritchie	Bronsa: removing AOT compilation for now
19:55	Bronsa	sritchie: AOT compiling tools.reader seems to work fine for me
19:55	sritchie	with those deps?
19:56	sritchie	Bronsa: oh, well --
19:56	sritchie	the aot compile works for me as well,
19:56	sritchie	it's when I run the uberjar after that
19:56	sritchie	that I get a crash
19:56	Bronsa	weird
19:57	Bronsa	sritchie: ubjerjar just worked for me w/ :aot :all
19:58	sritchie	Bronsa: inside my jar,
19:58	sritchie	it's getting thrown at at clojure.tools.reader.edn__init.load(Unknown Source)
19:58	sritchie	when I actually try to run the jar w/
19:58	sritchie	java -cp thejar.jar clojure.main -m mynamespace
19:58	Bronsa	yeah, that's the same as the error that seangrov1 had
19:58	Bronsa	mmh
19:59	Bronsa	sritchie: I'm compiling a dummy core.clj with (:require [clojure.tools.reader.edn]), maybe that error manifests when tools.reader is being required from another library I guess
20:02	geoffs	technomancy: works like a charm!! It took about 2 minutes to start up, and it's a bit sluggish (i.e. not instantaneous) in the REPL, but it works! thanks a lot!
20:03	technomancy	geoffs: very cool. would be interested in hearing what you do with it.
20:04	geoffs	I'll let you know :)
20:04	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure is for robots
20:04	clojurebot	Alles klar
20:10	Bronsa	sritchie: is it possible that the exception is being thrown by https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/cookies.clj#L4 ?
20:11	sritchie	Bronsa: oh, yeah
20:11	sritchie	looks like that's right near the top
20:11	sritchie	of the trace
20:12	sritchie	Bronsa: nice find
20:13	Bronsa	sritchie: that's actually what seangrov1 reported :P
20:14	Bronsa	sritchie: I still cannot reproduce though
20:17	technomancy	clojurebot: erlang is for heaters
20:17	clojurebot	c'est bon!
20:22	bitemyapp	technomancy: haha, what?
20:22	technomancy	bitemyapp: https://github.com/technomancy/prometheus
20:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: should've used Elixir >:P
20:23	technomancy	bitemyapp: yeah, the lack of \|> is actually suuuuper annoying
20:23	Bronsa	sritchie: I really have no idea what's going on there, I don't think it's a bug with tools.reader, Reader is just a regular clojure protocol
20:24	sritchie	well,
20:24	bitemyapp	technomancy: the set_attribute/get_attribute stuff looks tedious.
20:24	sritchie	maybe they're each depending on separate versions?
20:24	sritchie	and AOT compiling differently?
20:24	sritchie	hmm
20:24	Raynes	technomancy: wtf traitor
20:24	bitemyapp	lmfao.
20:24	technomancy	bitemyapp: I don't have enough experience to know whether to blame the lib or not on that one
20:24	Raynes	technomancy: Why would you not use Elixir? Monster.
20:24	Raynes	I
20:24	Bronsa	sritchie: you should have only a t.r version on your classpath
20:24	sritchie	yeah
20:25	technomancy	Raynes: because of learnyousomeerlang.com
20:25	technomancy	primarily
20:25	Raynes	technomancy: You've got Raynes.
20:25	technomancy	the LYSE guy works at heroku
20:25	Raynes	You have Raynes and José Valim.
20:25	hyPiRion	yay Erlang
20:26	technomancy	Raynes: we hang out on internal heroku chats and make fun of go together
20:26	hiredman	~erlang
20:26	clojurebot	http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/07/trouble-with-erlang-or-erlang-is-ghetto.html
20:26	Raynes	technomancy: Oh yeah? Well I've had discussions with the guy who wrote LYAH. So there.
20:26	technomancy	how do you do the thumbs up emoticon
20:27	bitemyapp	technomancy: I am hella jealous of your ability to mock Go with the LYSE guy.
20:27	technomancy	hiredman: agreed on most of the points in that article, but lmao at "There's no nil" like that's a problem
20:28	technomancy	I mean, "
20:28	technomancy	Erlang isn't general purpose" is hardly news
20:29	Raynes	The biggest issues with Erlang that it willfully lacks functionality every other modern language has and nobody but me seemed to care at all.
20:30	Raynes	That sentence was like 5 different sentences munged into one giant nonsensical sentence. Excuse me while I try again.
20:30	Raynes	The biggest issue with Erlang, imo of course, is that it willfully lacks functionality every other modern language has and nobody but me seems to care at all.
20:31	Raynes	Which means 1 of 2 things: lots of Erlang people think that Erlang is perfect and never needs new things, or I expect more out of languages than I should.
20:32	TimMc	Did you know that you can rearrange the letters of "Erlangysroniswlo" to spell "Raynes is wrong, lol"?
20:32	TimMc	True fact.
20:32	Raynes	One specific instance that I've talked about at length: ya can't execute an external program, pipe data to its stdin, tell it you're finished by sending EOF, and then read data.
20:33	technomancy	Raynes: is "sending EOF" here somehow distinct from "closing its input stream"?
20:33	Raynes	My post on the mailing list received mostly replies about how this is a horrible thing to do, tinged with responses to those people asking them for samples of what they were smoking.
20:33	Raynes	technomancy: No.
20:33	technomancy	huh
20:33	technomancy	so you're saying closing the input stream closes the output stream too or something?
20:34	brainproxy	inside a go-loop in a cljs app, i have some "subroutines" (i.e. fn calls) that should yield back a bit of time to the cpu in order for the overall app to feel more responsive
20:34	Raynes	Yes.
20:34	technomancy	lame
20:34	brainproxy	i came up w/ this helper: https://gist.github.com/michaelsbradleyjr/7258997
20:34	brainproxy	thoughts?
20:34	technomancy	well it's a good fit for chat programs =)
20:34	Raynes	technomancy: Solution proposed by well known member of the community: write data to file, shell out to bash and pipe file into program, read output.
20:34	Raynes	I pretty much checked out and gave up at that point.
20:35	TimMc	Pretty wild.
20:35	Raynes	technomancy: What bothers me is that this isn't just something you write a library for. The fundamental low-level API to do this isn't there in Erlang. You use what they've got or you write C to do it instead.
20:35	Raynes	So if they don't want change, there ain't gonna be no change.
20:36	technomancy	Raynes:right; it's not even something you can fix in a completely different language
20:47	bitemyapp	Raynes: it doesn't help that Ericsson just gives zero fucks.
20:48	Raynes	bitemyapp: Negative 1 in my experience.
20:49	xuser	so that's an elixir issue too I guess
20:50	brehaut	didnt ericson stop using erlang in hte late 90s ?
20:51	brehaut	oh i see, they unbanned it in 2004 and rehired armstrong
20:52	xuser	to be serious about elixir you need to know erlang, to be serious about clojure you need to know java ;)
20:52	bitemyapp	xuser: not really.
20:52	bitemyapp	I know fuck-all about Java and use Clojure happily.
20:52	bitemyapp	I just know where to find what I want in java.util.*
20:52	Foxboron	xuser: thats like saying "to be serious about Python, you need to know C"
20:52	Foxboron	thats not correct at all
20:52	bitemyapp	^^ what he said.
20:53	bitemyapp	Clojure relies on its host, but it doesn't matter for Joe Average Developer.
20:53	bitemyapp	Or Jill.
20:53	Foxboron	"To be serious about lang x, you need to have understanding of the underlying language"
20:53	Foxboron	this applies to everything really
20:53	Foxboron	"To be serious about C; you'd need to know ASM"
20:54	Foxboron	IMO, it might be more relevant for Clojure.
20:54	xuser	maybe replace serious with pragmatic?
20:54	Foxboron	But i think its just wrong.
20:54	bitemyapp	knowing assembler can make C more, not less, confusing.
20:54	bitemyapp	you're better off studying the C standard and understanding the abstract C machine model.
20:54	Foxboron	xuser: why pragmatic?
20:54	Foxboron	i'd argue it would make a language less pragmatic if you need to know two languages to learn one
20:55	Foxboron	bitemyapp: well, that wasnt really the point of the statment :P
20:55	brehaut	clojure is different to most languages because it expects you to use the host language's APIs directly via interop
20:55	xuser	Foxboron: because of the ecosystem, in your python examle you don't need to know C to create useful real world apps rapidly
20:55	Foxboron	xuser: you don't need to know java to do the same with Clojure
20:55	xuser	Foxboron: that's not the same for clojure or elixir
20:55	brehaut	clojure doesnt ship with a concurrent threadsafe blocking queue because java provides a completely adequate one for example
20:56	Foxboron	brehaut: but you go by fine using that without any knowledge about java
20:56	brehaut	Foxboron: by analogy it would be the same as just ignoring a huge chunk of the standard library in python
20:57	benkay	poor me, i decided to learn emacs and clojure at the same time because i believed the troll who told me that i'd need to in order to really grok the environment
20:57	hyPiRion	there's a difference between a standard library and knowing how to develop good programs in a language
20:58	brainproxy	benkay: it gets better :)
20:58	brainproxy	just stick with it
20:58	Foxboron	hyPiRion: i was struggling formulating just that.
20:58	xuser	Foxboron: I though Clojure success was the Java ecosystem, so see where I'm going to here
20:58	Foxboron	xuser: sure it is.
20:58	xuser	+you
20:58	benkay	8 months later i'm baseline competent at both, and to rub salt in the wounds i just watched the hagleberg talk where he says "yeah don't learn clojure and emacs at the same time"
20:58	Foxboron	But it dosnt require any java knowledge to use an API provided to you.
20:59	Foxboron	xuser: you go by just fine using a C library in Python without C knowledge
20:59	TimMc	technomancy: Looking at Prometheus... I'm thinking of writing a daemon that runs Folding@Home at different CPU intensity levels depending on the temperature and a "thermostat" setting.
20:59	Foxboron	same applies to Clojure
20:59	TimMc	It would require a little experimentation to determine what CPU temps correspond to what room temps.
20:59	technomancy	benkay: who told you that; let's sick the guards on em
20:59	Foxboron	xuser: you can argue it helps understand Clojure better. But not development.
20:59	xuser	Foxboron: yes, but Java APIs are not exposed as Clojure api
20:59	technomancy	benkay: which talk was that btw? =)
21:00	technomancy	TimMc: awesome
21:00	Foxboron	xuser: but that isnt really an argument. You get by fine using the tools clojure give you to work with the API.
21:00	hyPiRion	The "need" for java interop was mostly to bootstrap the chicken and egg problem with a language: You'd need a lot of libraries to get users to use it, but only the users can generate those. These days you can get usually along fine by using Clojure wrappers for what you need.
21:00	Foxboron	No java knowledge needed.
21:00	TimMc	I've already used an old laptop running F@H as a heating pad...
21:00	technomancy	TimMc: probably not a great fit for the beaglebone if it's CPU intensive, but I was really happy with it for this
21:00	hiredman	hyPiRion: the wrappers are often very bad
21:00	TimMc	Yeah, this is for beefier machines.
21:01	llasram	Also, one thing I love about Clojure is how thin a layer it can be over the JVM. Even thinner than Java at times IMHO
21:01	hyPiRion	hiredman: Yeah, that's actually a bit of a problem: What is a good vs. bad wrapper is hard to find out.
21:01	hiredman	llasram: yes
21:01	hiredman	hyPiRion: it is easy, wrappers are bad
21:02	hiredman	people tend to do them as "my first clojure" projects
21:02	TimMc	Wrappers are good for bad APIs. -.-
21:02	hiredman	they hide what is being wrapped without adding value
21:03	xuser	Foxboron: won't you have a hard time using http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ without java knowlegde?
21:03	llasram	I think a good wrapper can add value by providing actual integration
21:03	bitemyapp	xuser: how much code have you written today?
21:03	llasram	Making things seqable, reducible, etc
21:03	xuser	bitemyapp: not much really ;)
21:03	brehaut	hiredman, llasram: and often they are written without full understanding of the decisions that went into the wrapped API
21:04	bitemyapp	xuser: stop wasting yours and everybody else's time and just go write some Clojure code.
21:04	hiredman	indeed
21:04	Foxboron	xuser: why would i? I see what types it uses. What goes where and what it returns.
21:04	Foxboron	xuser: where is the problem?
21:04	bitemyapp	Foxboron: don't encourage him.
21:04	bitemyapp	Foxboron: write code.
21:04	hiredman	wrappers are the most direct way to add complexity, you had an api X with X's semantics, how you have to worry about wrapper W and how it's semantics are mapped on to X
21:04	benkay	technomancy http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Swarm-Coding
21:04	xuser	bitemyapp: I really deserved that
21:05	Foxboron	bitemyapp: i am a sucker for arguments
21:05	bitemyapp	Foxboron: become a sucker for code.
21:05	bitemyapp	Foxboron: if you need a task, I can provide one.
21:05	Foxboron	bitemyapp: Hahaha. It's way to late for me to produce any kind of useable code, but sure shoot.
21:06	bitemyapp	Foxboron: github.com/bitemyapp/revise cbp got the rethinkdb client driver pretty close to being releasable, I'm working on making the connection management thread-safe. You could poke around and see what could be done with it if it interests you.
21:07	bitemyapp	you might want to ping him or I before launching any crusades though.
21:07	Foxboron	bitemyapp: i'm like "ohhey, i recognize that picture from somwhere...oh twitter!"
21:08	Foxboron	bitemyapp: gotta look at the code, might be above my level of skill
21:09	bitemyapp	Foxboron: you reach that level of skill by rolling up your sleeves and doing the work.
21:10	Foxboron	bitemyapp: you don't just walk into Tour de France with a tricycle
21:11	bitemyapp	Foxboron: code isn't like that. It's not a competition, it's just work.
21:11	bitemyapp	Foxboron: all you have to do is get the work done and continually refine and improve. It'll take less experienced people more time than more experienced people...but it's not a race. It shouldn't be.
21:11	bitemyapp	Foxboron: just get the work done.
21:12	bitemyapp	don't understand monoids? learn what monoids are. Don't understand transients? learn what transients are for.
21:12	bitemyapp	it doesn't matter if that means things take a bit longer.
21:12	Raynes	Heh.
21:12	Foxboron	But in reality, it is easier said then done. bitemyapp ill take a look. But anything thread related is my weak side really.
21:12	amalloy	(inc bitemyapp)
21:12	lazybot	⇒ 9
21:13	brehaut	Foxboron: you wont get better at threads by thinking about it
21:13	brehaut	(thinking alone)
21:14	Foxboron	brehaut: that is indeed true.
21:14	amalloy	Foxboron: for years i felt the same way about databases - it was this big scary thing that i knew i didn't know how to do, and so i avoided it. but like threading, it's...just not that hard, once you decide to learn it
21:14	xuser	bitemyapp: so how does reql compare to sql? do like you like more?
21:14	xuser	+it
21:15	Raynes	bitemyapp: We basically roll out of bed like that every morning because we didn't do college.
21:15	Raynes	bitemyapp: "Hrm, monoids. Better read up on those."
21:16	Foxboron	amalloy: hah. I attended an AI competition with no knowledge and a week at my disposal. got into the finals and knocked out because of 1/2 simple mistakes :3
21:16	Raynes	As opposed to "Hrm, they didn't cover this in school."
21:16	bitemyapp	xuser: REQL is neat, I don't have a strong opinion on it. I think it leads to somewhat more native semantics in the querying but I think SQL and Datalog are both better in the long run.
21:16	brehaut	Raynes: you are making ridiculous generalisations
21:16	Foxboron	Raynes: hah, what do they cover in school except OO concepts?
21:16	amalloy	brehaut: they teach you not to do that in college
21:16	amalloy	(apparently)
21:16	brehaut	amalloy: aha
21:16	bitemyapp	Raynes: you might be right.
21:17	bitemyapp	of course, I'm only agreeing because it makes brehaut butt-mad.
21:17	brehaut	bitemyapp: im shaking my head, not frothing with rage
21:17	Raynes	I don't think he is angry at what I said but what he just made up that I said.
21:17	bitemyapp	Foxboron: actually, xuser reminds me - i could use a datalog->SQL bridge.
21:17	xuser	bitemyapp: hmm k, I'll stick with postgres for now
21:18	bitemyapp	xuser: rethinkdb is nice if you want a document store that isn't awful.
21:18	Foxboron	bitemyapp: i got no idea what that means.
21:18	Raynes	brehaut: I certainly wasn't saying that people who go to college aren't capable or willing to learn things not taught in college.
21:18	bitemyapp	Foxboron: I want to query SQL databases with datalog.
21:18	Raynes	Sorry if it came off that way. :D
21:19	brehaut	Raynes: no obviously.
21:19	bitemyapp	Perhaps more that we just don't understand what's expected, so we learn whatever.
21:19	bitemyapp	and that's how we learned everything we know anyway.
21:19	bitemyapp	that and getting brow-beaten on IRC.
21:19	brehaut	Raynes: but likewise, ive known a lot of non-college educated programmers who would see 'monoid' and go 'programming isnt math. what do i need that for, PHP!'
21:19	bitemyapp	garbage people are garbage. News at 11
21:20	brehaut	indeed
21:20	hiredman	come now, I hear php has a type system now
21:20	brehaut	hiredman: wait wat
21:20	Foxboron	bitemyapp: ahh, i see. Googled and it made more sense
21:20	hiredman	there was a strangeloop talk, one of the hiphop vm guys annonced a gradual typing extension to php
21:20	benkay	(+ 2 bitemyapp)
21:21	bitemyapp	Foxboron: datalog is hella nice yo.
21:21	brehaut	hiredman: O_O that sounds astoundingly brave
21:21	muhoo	often the only thing learned from being browbeaten is to hate the browbeater. doesn't always get the message through, and often obscures or invalidates it.
21:21	hiredman	the video went viral or something
21:21	Foxboron	hiredman: looking at it. and it makes indeed sense
21:22	Foxboron	bitemyapp: i'd really love to have a project to work on, and i'll take a look at it. I am tho not home and kinda busy over the weekend, so nothing from me before a few days
21:22	Foxboron	also, lol at hilightning hiredman instead of bitemyapp
21:22	Foxboron	tired indeed
21:23	benkay	muhoo: i find that browbeating only works if the beater respects the beater
21:23	benkay	beaten* respects the beater
21:24	hiredman	https://twitter.com/puredanger/status/384124183308820480
21:24	Apage43	I have a queue of maths to try and grasp, as every once in a while I encounter something that really builds on something that I don't know, which builds on more stuff I don't know, but that is still really interesting :/
21:24	brehaut	hiredman: thanks
21:24	hiredman	that talk video is available for preview with a code if you attended
21:25	brehaut	i guess i'll have to wait for it like a schlep then
21:25	benkay	brehaut: shlub
21:25	hiredman	I dunno, I did end up watching it all
21:25	bitemyapp	brehaut: a schlep is a tiresome and tedious journey or task, not a person.
21:25	hiredman	didn't
21:25	brehaut	oh
21:25	brehaut	sorry
21:25	bitemyapp	yeah you want shlub.
21:26	bitemyapp	it's fine, you're not a new yorker, don't know any better :)
21:26	bitemyapp	I want Facebook to go whole-hog and make a PHP compiler target for Haskell.
21:26	bitemyapp	GHC Core -> PHP
21:28	muhoo	benkay: i grew up in an era where learning many technical things meant willingly and eagerly subjecting yourself to abuse. it was like a hazing, but it was easy for someone with low self-esteem to tolerate, even welcome. i was happily surprised to see over the last decade a trend towards more respectful, openminded, less-judgemental, genteel mentoring. saw it in many areas. the clojure community has usually been exemplary in that area, em
21:29	bitemyapp	muhoo: Common Lisp was like joining an abusive fraternity.
21:29	bitemyapp	CoconutCrab: hi!
21:29	muhoo	bitemyapp: exactly. i no longer think that attitude is necessary or healthy.
21:30	bitemyapp	muhoo: well I try to be nice, but give short shrift to people wasting others' time still. I think I've gotten substantially better.
21:30	muhoo	(early linux was like that too, which is where i cut my teeth. i've been called an idiot more times than i can count)
21:30	benkay	muhoo: I waffle on the topic. some days the right approach is to throw a human into a problem way beyond their abilities, and some days the right approach is to ask "now precisely what the fuck were you thinking when you trashed our production keys?"
21:30	benkay	highly context and recipient dependent in my experience
21:31	rhg135	bitemyapp: Oh God
21:31	benkay	there is no One True Management philosophy, and junior engineers will always need Managing.
21:32	benkay	some thrive under pressure to not fuck up
21:32	bitemyapp	rhg135: hum?
21:32	rhg135	Nvm
21:32	benkay	other thrive only with zero pressure at all
21:32	benkay	i've been blessed to work at both kinds of shops and see both styles of management in practice, and have begun my own experiments
21:32	benkay	(muahahahaha)
21:42	bitemyapp	benkay: I work at a company where there's no management or bosses, the younguns just end up under some more experienced person's wing.
21:42	bitemyapp	they do their work, but are in some respects apprenticing over the course of multiple programs until they grow moe independent.
21:43	TimMc	CoconutCrab!
21:43	bitemyapp	TimMc: I KNOW RIGHT?!
21:44	TimMc	Sorry, I react to your name like https://xkcd.com/231/
21:44	holo	is it OK to make a pun with clojure to name a java lib wrapper, like: clj-java-lib or java-lijure?
21:45	bitemyapp	TimMc: me too :)
21:45	bitemyapp	holo: dude no.
21:45	bitemyapp	holo: don't...just...no.
21:45	bitemyapp	give it a nice name.
21:45	holo	but it's a wrapper..
21:45	hyPiRion	holo: You can try `lein new java-lijure` and see what we think about that idea
21:45	holo	omg, that name really exists?
21:46	hyPiRion	holo: try to run the command I gave you
21:46	bitemyapp	(it'll blow up your computer)
21:47	holo	ok, really no puns :) i got it
21:47	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: GHC once had a bug where Haskell code that failed the type-checker got deleted.
21:47	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I would suggest that Leiningen could benefit from their example...
21:48	benkay	bitemyapp: i don't know if this trend in the US towards management-less organizations is an evolution or de-evolution
21:48	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: oh, include bugs into programs used in production? sure thing, I add bugs into Leiningen all the time
21:49	benkay	bitemyapp: with the right leadership, it certainly seems to work while the VC bucks flow. with the wrong leadership, it turns into a clusterfuck of finger-pointing.
21:53	TimMc	holo: It's OK if it's ironic, e.g. swearjure.
21:56	holo	TimMc, it's kuromoji java lib. if i name it kuromojure, and take "mo", it's clojure spelled in japanese - kurojure. but yeah, probably it's a bad idea
21:59	holo	probably the correct spelling would be kurojuru
22:04	akurilin	Does Korma support choosing select field names without the first table's prefix? I think that's possible if you define a relationship in defentity, but I'm wondering if that's possible without it
22:17	bitemyapp	akurilin: choosing select field names?
22:17	bitemyapp	akurilin: might be easier if you have a before/after of "what I have to do now" and "how I'd rather express myself"
22:18	akurilin	bitemyapp, as in, I'm joining 2 tables, I can only select columns from the first table if (fields) prepends "first_table". to every column name
22:19	bitemyapp	akurilin: hrm, I would advise making first table a variable, but keeping it otherwise explicit.
22:20	akurilin	bitemyapp, not sure I'm following. When you say "first table a variable", are you suggesting I defentity it?
22:22	`cbp	If I redefine / in another namespace
22:22	`cbp	and then try to use it I get stuff like "invalid token" or "unmatched delimiter )"
22:23	`cbp	however clojure.core// works fine :-o
22:24	`cbp	Do I have to rename my /? :P
22:34	bitemyapp	akurilin: yes, or join a string.
22:34	amalloy	`cbp: yes
22:35	`cbp	amalloy: aww
22:35	amalloy	/ and clojure.core// are special-cased into the reader, as the only two symbols in which / isn't (only) a namespace separator
22:36	`cbp	Oh why didnt I think of that
22:36	`cbp	amalloy: thanks
22:57	gfredericks	is that fixed for 1.6?
22:57	gfredericks	I thought clojurescript needed it for something
22:57	devn	is anyone else not really surprised by the keyword reader patch being reverted?
22:58	devn	is there a good reason to not allow {:1234 "a"}?
22:58	gfredericks	devn: clojure.org/reader says you can't do that?
22:58	gfredericks	you might also argue that it's weird for a syntax to be valid as a keyword but not as a symbol
22:59	devn	well sure, but there's been a longstanding "hey, so, we dont use % yet, but there's no guarantee"
22:59	gfredericks	we don't use % yet?
23:00	gfredericks	,'#(% %2)
23:00	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__29# p2__30#] (p1__29# p2__30#))
23:00	gfredericks	I guess those aren't symbols exactly
23:01	gfredericks	,:%
23:01	clojurebot	:%
23:01	devn	gfredericks: yeah, maybe a poor example
23:02	devn	im just saying, no one ever made guarantees about what will or won't be a reader macro, so there are things allowed in symbols that might not be in the future
23:02	gfredericks	I've always thought of keywords and symbols as being rather parallel
23:02	gfredericks	devn: sure, and the patch that got reverted was an example of things not being there in the future
23:02	devn	in that respect i agree with you, but then again, i rather like the :1 thing
23:03	devn	for SHAs and stuff
23:03	gfredericks	you use keywords for SHAs?
23:03	TimMc	&:1
23:03	lazybot	⇒ :1
23:03	TimMc	TIL
23:03	gfredericks	TimMc: ?
23:03	devn	gfredericks: not all the time or some shit
23:03	TimMc	Not something I'd rely on though.
23:03	TimMc	gfredericks: "Today I Learned"
23:03	gfredericks	TimMc: you've not been around for today's discussion I guess?
23:04	TimMc	I am vaguely aware of it.
23:04	gfredericks	"It is neither the case that I use keywords for SHAs all the time, nor is it the case that some shit."
23:05	gfredericks	devn: yeah I don't have a strong case against it
23:05	gfredericks	you don't often see rich flip-flopping like that I guess is the weird part
23:05	gfredericks	or at least I don't
23:18	gfredericks	I think alex's email clears it all up
23:19	gfredericks	I'm curious how much code-breakage will be tolerated for clojure 2.0
23:22	muhoo	there's a clojure 2.0 in the works?
23:22	muhoo	news to me
23:22	gfredericks	well I imagine it's more an idea than a concrete thing at the moment
23:23	gfredericks	I think I heard rich suggest it would coincide with CinC
23:24	tbaldridge	that's probably years off though
23:24	gfredericks	right
23:48	muhoo	hmm, just upgraded to latest ring, and got this joy:
23:48	muhoo	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/http/HttpServletRequest, compiling:(ring/middleware/multipart_params.clj:39:5)
23:49	muhoo	am i correct in reading this to mean that ring-middleware is missing a dependency that it needs in order to work?
23:50	muhoo	if so, why, and how can this be?
23:55	amalloy	could be you're getting version X of one of the ring libs, and a conflicting version Y of another because multiple libraries depend on ring. or similarly for whoever depends on the servlet stuff
23:57	amalloy	(ie, usually it means not that a library is missing, but that it's not the expected version)
23:58	Bronsa	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/commit/c58e4912c9ab5228c247e558bd264b8e323a9e46 might be relevant