#clojure – 2013-10-30

2013-10-30

00:00	tbaldridge	https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer
00:00	brehaut	tbaldridge: yes, though its still the single link with the best overview
00:00	tbaldridge	yeah, there just isn't any work going on there anymore.
00:01	jared314	By changing requirement to choice, clj-in-clj will force people to choose a platform. But, most will choose the default because it is good. It's good reframing/marketing.
00:01	jared314	so the argument won't be what is better
00:01	jared314	it will be what are you doing, because the JVM is good enought
00:02	jared314	enough*
00:02	tbaldridge	"By changing the requirement to choice" not sure I understand that.
00:03	danlentz	recently i ran across an early clojure prototype implemented in common-list. I'm a bit sad it didnt happen at the same time I recognise that leveraging the java investment companies have made is perhaps the most significant reason clojure is emerging as such a viable platform in the marketplace
00:03	cmajor7	I am looking at core.async ops, and wondering.. what happens to the ops that don't just reify the Channel, but actually depend on the data within a channel.. in case the data is streaming in. for example, let's take a "split". the go-loop will only stop/exit producing those two channels (a vector of true and false for a predicate) in case the channel is closed http://bit.ly/16KkbDl , but what if the data is constantly streaming
00:04	danlentz	er, common-lisp that is
00:05	tbaldridge	cmajor7: go loops kick off a new logical thread. So the split function should return almost instantly.
00:06	cmajor7	tbaldridge: ah.. and then whoever is listening on tc/fc will get updates.. very niice
00:07	cmajor7	tbaldridge: could not see the next level of "inception" :)
00:07	tbaldridge	cmajor7: you must go deeper, and see where the rabbit hole goes.
00:08	cmajor7	tbaldridge: I am following him as we speak..
00:08	cmajor7	tbaldridge: a rabbit that is..
00:08	tbaldridge	cmajor7: I should mention, like most of Rich's code, async.clj contains a ton of "high performance" code. Some of the stuff with reifying ReadPorts and the like is kindof black magic.
00:09	tbaldridge	he wrote it so we don't have to, but most of the time you don't need drop to the primitives he's using.
00:11	cmajor7	tbaldridge: yea, I am just quietly walking the path of something I hope is "understanding the flow" not to reinvent a feature I am looking for..
00:12	SegFaultAX	Anyone see that Uber was doing kitten deliveries in SF today?
00:12	cmajor7	tbaldridge: thinking of doing "batching" with a channel. where I can call a function on that "batch" on either a timeout or when a certain batch size is reached
00:12	SegFaultAX	It was /awesome/. They came to our office with 3 ADORABLE kittens and hung out for like 25 minutes. They even brought cupcakes and kitten ears.
00:13	SegFaultAX	Not rubbing it in or anything, but how often do you get kittens delivered to your office. :D
00:13	cmajor7	tbaldridge: that batch is state, so I wanted to see if I can leverage an internal channel to keep that state.. maybe..
00:13	tbaldridge	cmajor7: yeah, you just need a loop that takes from a channel with an alt! and a timeout. use a loop to manage the state
00:14	jared314	tbaldridge: what i'm saying is c-in-c simplifies porting, which, through community effort, expands platform choice. This also creates a paradox of choice, where most people will just end up picking the JVM.
00:14	danlentz	ah. i was just searching the web looking for the definition of "kittens" as some sort of clojure/java technospeak
00:14	SegFaultAX	danlentz: No, actual kittens.
00:14	cmajor7	tbaldridge: yes, I am very much into alt! for this.. but how do I chop that "batch" from a channel, as events keep coming in..
00:15	danlentz	sometimes a kitten is just a kitten...
00:15	jared314	tbaldridge: but they will no longer complain about it because it was their choice
00:15	technomancy	SegFaultAX: I have had cats wandering into my office a few times
00:15	technomancy	not on demand though
00:15	technomancy	(my office is a shed in my back yard)
00:16	danlentz	technomancy: did you follow the earlier discussion re: unsigned arithmetic?
00:16	SegFaultAX	Well I can assure you it was a welcomed distraction.
00:16	technomancy	danlentz: no
00:16	SegFaultAX	Well, it was in the middle of a heated ping pong match, but other than that, welcomed.
00:16	technomancy	SegFaultAX: with me I kept worrying that I'd forget he was in there once he took a nap on the recliner and lock him in for th enight
00:17	cmajor7	tbaldridge: e.g. if it wasn't Clojure per se, I would use a concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue and would syncronize it (with a lock) to "fetch-a- batch" on either timeout or when batch size is reached. in Clojure however I feel it is already solved for me.. I just don't see "the way" at the moment
00:17	SegFaultAX	technomancy: We used to have a very open animal policy. There were 2 office dogs. It was pretty amazing... that is until the property manager decided to be a dick bag. :(
00:17	danlentz	i've4 been struggling to get a reasonably efficient means of doing 64bit unsigned arithmetic and have failed at some point with every solution I've come up with
00:18	`cbp	SegFaultAX: all I gotta do for cats to show up at my desk is to leave food overnight
00:18	amalloy	cmajor7: you have to look at core.async from the lens of javascript, where such niceties as blocking and threads don't exist
00:18	`cbp	and an open window
00:18	amalloy	it's still neat in clojure-jvm, in a similar way as lamina is, but it's not a huge deal
00:19	SegFaultAX	`cbp: Where is your office?
00:19	danlentz	popular wisdom is to put and search for some java project that might have been fought and won in this quagmire
00:19	danlentz	punt rather
00:19	`cbp	SegFaultAX: mexico
00:20	cmajor7	amalloy: I am really for looking at it differently, but since a channel is just a pipe with no meta data (size, peeking, chopping..), I am trying to understand/find an approach to "chop that batch" while data is still coming in to the channel
00:20	danlentz	basically I need to do some bitwise manipulations for my uuid library and I'm struggling to get it to produce results equal to those implemented on platforms that natively support unsigned numeric representations
00:22	SegFaultAX	`cbp: Ah, neat!
00:22	danlentz	and i just had the unpleasant discovery that bigint cant do bitwise ops, and so there goes another approach
00:23	jared314	what happened with fogus's gloss project?
00:23	cmajor7	amalloy: can you think of one?
00:23	tbaldridge	cmajor7: this is what you want, I think https://gist.github.com/halgari/7226915
00:23	amalloy	no, because your desire is not expressed in a way i can understand
00:23	jared314	nm
00:24	tbaldridge	eh, there's a bug there, < should be > I think
00:24	danlentz	gloss is close actually
00:24	jared314	danlentz: have looked at how ztelman did gloss yet?
00:25	jared314	danlentz: spelling not guaranteed.
00:25	danlentz	its good stuff but has a different focus and doesnt really get me there for the kind of bit-twiddling I'm trying to accomplish
00:26	amalloy	danlentz: you might ask ztellman, though - in addition to gloss he has done more low-level mathy stuff in clojure than anyone i can think of
00:27	danlentz	also i've lookedv at primitive-math, byte-streams, byte-transforms, bit-sets, and a number of other libs but they dont really address the core issue i run into
00:27	amalloy	working with primitives etc
00:27	jared314	danlentz: which is?
00:27	cmajor7	tbaldridge: for max-pending, right.. very cool. looks great. my mistake was thinking about holding that "batch" within an internal channel, but a simple vector hidden under the go hood is even better. thanks a lot Tim!
00:27	coventry	danlentz: What is the core issue, anyway?
00:28	danlentz	which is the need to mask off bits and deposit replacements, etc
00:28	tbaldridge	cmajor7: you might be tempted to reset the timeout channel at each recur, but the way I have it may work better in situations where the semantics are "flush every sec" vs "flush after 1 sec of inactivity"
00:29	danlentz	the common-lisp functions are: #'byte #'dpb, and #'ldb
00:29	jared314	danlentz: It sounds like a java ByteBuffer would work for that. What is wrong with it?
00:31	danlentz	only my ignoance of it. maybe that is the answer... It definitely gives me a new avenue to work on anyway
00:31	bitemyapp	`cbp: awesome :)
00:31	jared314	danlentz: java.nio.ByteBuffers
00:32	jared314	danlentz: java.nio.ByteBuffer
00:32	danlentz	reflection of some of the difficulties picking up clojure without much of a java background...
00:32	bitemyapp	I don't think picking up Clojure without Java is that hard.
00:32	jared314	danlentz: i learned about ByteBuffers from gloss
00:32	tbaldridge	seems you could also use a byte array
00:33	cmajor7	tbaldridge: yea, I think "(recur new-pending tout)" in case a batch size wasn't reached makes more sense, then reseting it on every message (if I understood your comment correctly)
00:33	danlentz	you're right. I remember seeing it. I think at the time my thought was i had found what i needed by simply following his unchecked primitives technique
00:33	tbaldridge	cmajor7: yeah, it depends on the semantics you want.
00:34	cmajor7	tbaldridge: right. again, thanks a lot. makes it so much easier than "me thinking reifying a Channel and holding that state" :)
00:35	danlentz	by the time I realized the difficulties down that road I seem to have forgotten it. thanks for the assist.
00:37	danlentz	bitemyapp: not insurmountable. just every so often one runs into some java thing that it would have been helpful to have known is all.
00:37	danlentz	Java for the aspiring clojurist would be an encellent book, if it existed
00:38	technomancy	bitemyapp: it's not that; it's picking a good first project that's hard.
00:39	technomancy	part of picking a good first project is knowing what's going to drop you straight into the guts of java.nio.* and avoiding that
00:39	technomancy	but how are you supposed to know that starting out?
00:39	jared314	that's what happened to me. Listen to him and don't do what I did.
00:40	danlentz	a good first project imho is one where you learn a lot, not necessarily write an excellent app. And I've definitely learned a lot by having to struggle a bit with this unsigned aritmetic
00:40	`cbp	try struggling with java.awt.print :P
00:41	danlentz	i hadn't the slightest idea it would be so difficult to get essentially the same functionality as the very simple common-lisp ldb and dpb functions
00:43	danlentz	and i've never encountered a situation where there was no concept of unsigned numbers -- very surprising how difficult it is to construct ones own unsigned representation using only a signed one
00:43	jared314	i've always found it strange to expect numbers to be bytebuffers
00:44	danlentz	i mean, doing the reverse is not that difficult
00:45	danlentz	also, though, the jvm is overprotective in this regard when it thinks you are trying to represent an invalid number
00:46	danlentz	things seem to dome down always to the fundamental issue of dealing with -0
00:46	danlentz	which it is never going to like, ever.
00:51	danlentz	so the representation of the word one would hope to create by means of (bit-shift-left 1 64) is just always going to run into problems even when you can create it with unchecked math trickery
00:53	danlentz	bit-and ing it with some other 2s complement analog of the unsigned number you mean becomes a task mired in special cases and potential exceptions
00:54	bjl7	so I have the form like (do (when x (get-new-y)) (recur y)). Is there a nice way to pass the value from the first statement in the do to the second? I'm not sure I want to clutter global var space.
00:54	coventry	Do you need it in a number format for the UUID application?
00:54	danlentz	in the end, there is one-less number representable in any given 2s complement byte-size than in unsigned of the same width
00:55	danlentz	coventry: you're suggestingf manipulating a string representation?
00:56	coventry	A ByteBuffer representation maybe.
00:56	danlentz	also an interesting idea. y the bytebuffer is my next approach
00:57	jared314	I like to image that old cereal commercial: You got a pointer in my numbers. No, you got numbers in my pointer. Oh well, lets just jump to the location and see what happens.
00:58	danlentz	although the bytes iun a bytebuffer are still signed so i'd have to use shorts in the bytebuffer and the basically reimplement the various bitwise-operations to support operating in that way
00:59	danlentz	i've also looked at chars, which are, in fact, unsigned numbers
01:00	danlentz	but unfortunately they seem to be undefined over certain ranges something like FD00-FDFF or some such
01:00	danlentz	which i'm sure almost no java implementation probably checks, but still seems a bad idea to rely on that
01:01	danlentz	ie, this would be viable, otherwise, to manipulate unsigned numbers as unicode strings
01:01	danlentz	utf16 or what hace you
01:08	danlentz	jared314: I think that's from reeses pointer-buffer cups
01:08	jared314	danlentz: now i'm hungry
01:12	danlentz	jared314: bytecode
01:15	jared314	(inc danlentz)
01:15	lazybot	⇒ 1
01:16	jared314	(identity danlentz)
01:16	lazybot	danlentz has karma 1.
01:17	danlentz	jared314: your karma ran over my dogma...
01:18	danlentz	sorry that joke was pretty lame i know
01:20	danlentz	so... nicks represent a MUTABLE datatype?
01:21	danlentz	wouldnt have expected to find that here
01:21	danlentz	(identity danlentz)
01:21	lazybot	danlentz has karma 1.
01:21	danlentz	how un-ideomatic
01:23	danlentz	(swap! danlentz inc)
01:23	danlentz	hmm
01:25	danlentz	lazybot: learn clojure
01:25	lazybot	My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I won't forget it.
01:33	jared314	no, just a key in, I think, mongodb
01:34	jared314	and the inc is just a command it recognizes
01:34	jared314	https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/blob/master/src/lazybot/plugins/karma.clj
01:56	danlentz	ztellman: hello -- you are author of byte-streams, gloss, primitive-math, etc?
01:56	ztellman	danlentz: that's me
01:57	danlentz	well you might be the most likely person to have encountered some of the issues i've been worjking through on my maiden voyage in clojure
01:57	ztellman	such as?
01:58	danlentz	i come from a common-lisp background where there are a very powerful means of dealing with unsigned, signed, or even arbitrary bit-vector representations
01:59	danlentz	as an excercise (and also b/c i need one) i've been working on a more useful UUID library extending java's UUID tyype
01:59	danlentz	and my issue is to get results that equal those on platforms capable of unsigned arithmetic
02:00	ztellman	well, primitive-math is decent at that
02:00	ztellman	it's not doing what you expect?
02:00	danlentz	i'm fine, of couse, dealing with everything up to LONG
02:00	danlentz	y i've played with primitive math
02:01	ztellman	so what's the issue?
02:01	danlentz	the representation of the word one would hope to create by means of
02:01	danlentz	(bit-shift-left 1 64) is just always going to run into problems even when you
02:01	danlentz	can create it with unchecked math trickery
02:02	ztellman	at that point you want to use BigInteger
02:02	danlentz	in the end, there is one-less number representable in any given 2s complement
02:02	danlentz	byte-size than in unsigned of the same width
02:02	ztellman	https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math/blob/master/src/primitive_math.clj#L247
02:02	ztellman	that allows arbitrary bitshifting, etc
02:02	danlentz	but bitwise ops are not defined on bigint -- am I missing the obvious?
02:03	ztellman	aren't they?
02:03	ztellman	one sec
02:03	danlentz	if they were i'd be golden
02:03	ztellman	they are: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/math/BigInteger.html
02:03	ztellman	oh, well, that's an ancient versoin
02:03	ztellman	but anyway
02:03	ztellman	I'm talking about java.math.BigInteger, not clojure's BigInt
02:04	ztellman	notice that's what primitive-math/long->ulong gives you
02:04	danlentz	(-> (bigint 1)
02:04	danlentz	(bit-shift-left 1))
02:04	danlentz	oh
02:04	danlentz	ah
02:05	ztellman	yeah, you'll just be using the Java API for this
02:05	ztellman	but it should do everything you need
02:05	danlentz	well this is why i'm a dunce still -- i didnt realize there was a difference between bigint and BigInteger
02:07	akurilin	Does anybody know if there's a way to force a non-validating SSL connection to PG in Korma?
02:08	akurilin	In clojure jdbc you can just append sslfactory=org.postgresql.ssl.NonValidatingFactory to the DB address and you'll get an SSL connection even when the server cert is not trusted.
02:08	andyfingerhut_	danlentz: Be slightly cautious with BigIntegers in Clojure. Their hash is not consistent with = when comparing them with other integral types. http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1036
02:08	andyfingerhut_	danlentz: Sorry, that is throwing you into more details than you might care to dive into right now, but if you deal with BigInteger types frequently in Clojure that gotcha may come up.
02:09	danlentz	so also the clojure bitwise ops wont work and the whole deal is tyhrough java you're saying
02:09	andyfingerhut_	Clojure bitwise ops work on longs only, I believe.
02:10	danlentz	andyfingerhut_: no worries I'd rather have the idea where dragons be lurking
02:11	andyfingerhut_	It is easy to convert between bigint and BigInteger, but if you work with BigInteger a lot, could be a hassle to remember to do the conversion everywhere necessary. I'd recommend using bigint in most places, and try to isolate BigInteger to only the places you must have it.
02:11	danlentz	BigInteger is going to be relatively slow I'm assuming... but if it's a solution i'll take it
02:12	andyfingerhut_	relatively slow to some other arbitrary precision integer library? Compared to libgmp perhaps, but I haven't measured carefully.
02:13	danlentz	ie coerce to BigInteger where i need to do the bit twiddling
02:13	andyfingerhut_	If you need something bigger than 64-bit ints, it is BigInteger, find someone patient enough to have written their own, or write your own, I would think.
02:13	danlentz	:}
02:13	danlentz	no 64 bit unsigned values are what i'm trying to represent
02:14	andyfingerhut_	Well, if it is already a bigint, the coercion should just be a cast, I think.
02:14	danlentz	neat
02:14	andyfingerhut	If all you need are 64 bits, why not just use longs?
02:14	danlentz	ugh
02:15	danlentz	because there are 1 fewer numbers representable in 2's complement signed arth than unsigned
02:15	andyfingerhut	I don't think that is true. There are exactly 2^64 of each.
02:15	danlentz	2^64 or -0 being illegal
02:15	andyfingerhut	N-bit signed 2's complement values range from -2^(N-1) through 2^N-1, inclusive.
02:15	andyfingerhut	exactly 2^N values.
02:16	danlentz	0x8000000000000000
02:16	danlentz	1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
02:16	andyfingerhut	That is 2's complement representation for -2^63
02:16	andyfingerhut	If I'm guessing that you've got 64 bits there.
02:17	andyfingerhut	Are you sure you are not thinking of 1's complement representation, where there are separate bit representations of +0 and -0? 2's complement doesn't have that.
02:18	danlentz	user> (long 0x8000000000000000)
02:18	danlentz	IllegalArgumentException Value out of range for long: 9223372036854775808 clojure.lang.RT.longCast (RT.java:1134)
02:19	andyfingerhut	Put a minus sign in front of it, and you won't get an exception.
02:19	danlentz	so bitmasks that are pretty important like 0xFFFF000000000000 are not representable
02:19	andyfingerhut	They are representable, but they are negative long values.
02:20	danlentz	only (unchecked-neg 0x7FFF000000000000)
02:20	danlentz	well right 0x8000000000000 is the crux of the issue
02:21	andyfingerhut	I'm not saying that is convenient to use them as unsigned values. I am saying that if you really want to avoid BigInteger, and you only need 64-bit values, longs are 64-bit values, with 2^64 different possible values, and + and - that give the same bit-level answers as unsigned values do.
02:21	danlentz	thats why to represent an unsigned byte one must roll over into shorts
02:21	akurilin	I guess I couldn't find an SSL switch in Korma, but adding ssl=true to the parameters in the connection URL seems to force SSL on.
02:21	andyfingerhut	You can choose to, but you don't have to. signed bytes have 8 bits, just like unsigned bytes do.
02:22	danlentz	a signed byte can't represent 128
02:22	danlentz	(byte 0x80)
02:22	danlentz	IllegalArgumentException Value out of range for byte: 128 clojure.lang.RT.byteCast (RT.java:1019)
02:22	andyfingerhut	,(byte -0x80)
02:22	clojurebot	-128
02:22	andyfingerhut	same bit pattern as unsigned 0x80
02:22	danlentz	signed bytes are -128->127
02:24	danlentz	its 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFF80
02:24	andyfingerhut	It might be more productive to talk about what you want to do with unsigned 64-bit values.
02:25	danlentz	well, I need to mask off abitrary bits of a 64-bit word and replace them primarily
02:26	danlentz	;; The string representation of A UUID has the format:
02:26	danlentz	;;
02:26	danlentz	;; clock-seq-and-reserved
02:26	danlentz	;; time-mid \| clock-seq-low
02:26	danlentz	;; \| \| \|
02:26	danlentz	;; 6ba7b810-9dad-11d1-80b4-00c04fd430c8
02:26	danlentz	;; \| \| \|
02:28	danlentz	sorry that got me booted ....
02:28	andyfingerhut	danlentz: Links are better.
02:28	danlentz	i'm back
02:29	danlentz	y sorry abt that
02:29	danlentz	so the canonical representation of UUID for java is 2 longs
02:30	andyfingerhut	Canonical as in that is how many people choose to store a UUID in Java?
02:30	danlentz	i need to mask off the various fields and takeb thier values as uint8, uint32, uint16 etc
02:31	danlentz	that is how the java.util.UUID class seems to be implemented
02:32	danlentz	one can extend type UUID e.g., (get-word-high [uuid]
02:32	danlentz	(.getMostSignificantBits uuid))
02:32	danlentz	(get-word-low [uuid]
02:33	danlentz	(.getLeastSignificantBits uuid))
02:33	andyfingerhut	If you have two longs, the first holding the 6ba7b810-9dad-11d1 part in your example, you can use Zach's primitive-math library to do unsigned right shifts using the >>> macro (I think it is a macro -- maybe a function instead), e.g. (>>> long0 32) = 0x6ba7b810
02:33	andyfingerhut	Then convert that to a 32-bit int if you wish using unchecked-int
02:36	andyfingerhut	Clojure does not have an unsigned right shift operation yet, unfortunately, but one may be added in the next release.
02:36	danlentz	but what if those first 4 bytes are 0x80 0x80 0x80 0x80
02:37	andyfingerhut	bits are bits. Try this:
02:37	andyfingerhut	after doing (use 'primitive-math) on Zach's library
02:37	andyfingerhut	(format "%08x" (unchecked-int (>>> -0x8000000000000000 32)))
02:38	andyfingerhut	You should get out 80000000
02:38	andyfingerhut	(the string)
02:38	amalloy	,(format "%08x" (unchecked-int (>>> -0x8000000000000000 32)))
02:38	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: >>> in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:38	amalloy	oh right, haha
02:39	andyfingerhut	>>> is part of primitive-math lib, not Clojure
02:40	danlentz	ah -- you're right
02:41	danlentz	using unchecked-int afterwards is what I was missing
02:41	danlentz	wow I think that really helped me out
02:41	andyfingerhut	It is easy to freak out about Java not having unsigned types, but except for the numerical ranges of values they are normally printed or read as, signed and unsigned integers fill the hardware registers the same way
02:41	danlentz	thanks for sticking with me through that
02:42	andyfingerhut	np. A-ha moments are a beautiful thing to have and behold.
02:42	danlentz	its been about a month now I've been banging my head on this
02:43	danlentz	>>> = primitive-math/bit-unsigned-shift-right, yes?
02:43	andyfingerhut	format with %x is a nice way to print ints as unsigned values. There might be %u, too. Not sure about reading them, but I can experiment a bit.
02:44	andyfingerhut	Yes. Just a bit shorter :)
02:45	danlentz	and (type -0x8000000000000000) = Long
02:45	danlentz	dear god i think this may help end my struggle!
02:45	danlentz	(inc andyfingerhut)
02:45	lazybot	⇒ 2
02:47	andyfingerhut	Looks like Java/Clojure's format is good for printing byte/short/int/longs as unsigned octal or hex, but I don't see a good way to do it in decimal unsigned.
02:47	danlentz	of course (type 0x8000000000000000) = clojure.lang.BigInt so some care is still in order w.r.t edge cases
02:48	andyfingerhut	Yes, that value is not a signed 64-bit long value.
02:48	danlentz	ive been using
02:48	danlentz	(defn pphex [x]
02:48	danlentz	(returning x
02:48	danlentz	(cl-format out "~&~A [~64,'0b]~%"
02:48	danlentz	(format "[%1$016X] " x) x)))
02:50	andyfingerhut	All of what would be unsigned long values from 0x8000_0000_0000_0000 through 0xFFFF_FFFF_FFFF_FFFF are signed values that are numerically 2^64 smaller than those unsigned values. But their bit representations are exactly the same as those unsigned values.
02:50	andyfingerhut	I have not seen 'returning' before. What is that?
02:50	danlentz	oh
02:51	danlentz	its analogous to common-lisp's prog1
02:51	danlentz	(defmacro returning
02:51	danlentz	"Compute a return value, then execute other forms for side effects.
02:51	danlentz	Like prog1 in common lisp, or a (do) that returns the first form."
02:51	danlentz	[value & forms]
02:51	danlentz	`(let [value# ~value]
02:51	danlentz	~@forms
02:51	danlentz	value#))
02:51	andyfingerhut	ok, familiar with that one.
02:51	SegFaultAX	danlentz: Probably easier not to do multi-line paste in the channel.
02:51	SegFaultAX	refheap or gist are better options :)
02:52	danlentz	dunno how you guys live4 w/o it :)
02:52	andyfingerhut	will (print (format "%016x" x)) work just as well as the cl-format expression?
02:52	danlentz	SegFaultAX sorry
02:52	andyfingerhut	Oh, unless you are trying to get out binary.
02:52	danlentz	y had issues getting binary w/o cl-format iirc
02:53	SegFaultAX	danlentz: No problem, just something to keep in mind.
02:54	danlentz	btw i really love clojures auto-gensyms or whatever they're called
02:55	andyfingerhut	(Long/toBinaryString -0x8000000000000000)
02:55	danlentz	makes with-unique-names and once-only seem somewhat barbaric
02:55	andyfingerhut	Java method I just Googled.
02:56	danlentz	ooh. fantastic
02:56	andyfingerhut	The cl-format method you showed gave me an error when I tried it with that argument. Probably a bug.
02:58	danlentz	but wait the toBinaryString doesnt left-pad 0's
02:58	amalloy	danlentz: i wrote that `returning` function you pasted, but i can confirm it's pretty easy to do without since most of the time clojure functions are side-effect-free
02:59	danlentz	still easily remedieds
03:00	danlentz	amalloy: y I didn't mean to omit the proper attribution -- just playing fast and loose to convey the idea
03:01	amalloy	no, i don't mind. just that you said you don't know how we live without it: it's easy if you avoid side effects. i'm pretty sure i haven't used `returning` for months
03:03	danlentz	amalloy: I copy-pasted it rather than call yours b/c I have a couple of extra tweaks in my utils.clj like an extended "returning-bind" version
03:04	danlentz	analogous to the way paul grahams anaphoric aprog1 works without the lexical injection of an 'it binding
03:06	danlentz	but "returningf" was a really nice choice of name much more aesthetic and semantically transparent than APROG1 for sure
03:06	danlentz	"returning" that is
03:08	andyfingerhut	Hmph. I forgot that cl-format with 0-padding is not a good fit for negative numbers.
03:08	danlentz	i guess returning-bind might be more clojurishly named returning-let to be consistent with when-let, if-let etc... bind is a somewhat common-lisp centric terminology as symbols and bindings work somewhat differently....
03:10	mythz	Hey guys if anyone's interested I've just published a port of C#'s 101 LINQ examples to Clojure at: https://github.com/mythz/clojure-linq-examples - As I'm just starting out myself, any suggestions to improve readability or make the examples more idiomatic is welcomed!
03:11	danlentz	andyfingerhut: yes, the clojure implementation is unfortunately true to the CL version in that regard
03:11	danlentz	i really hate format TBH
03:12	andyfingerhut	Java/Clojure's format is more like C's printf, and fortunately does not have that quirk of CL format / Clojure cl-format
03:12	danlentz	the only reason I use it is a profound disgust for all the alternatives....
03:14	danlentz	but there is no simple clj.core/format recipie that will handle left-padding the result of (Long/toBinaryString x) with 0's -- or is there?
03:15	andyfingerhut	Not that I know of. If you want it, probably easiest is to write your own simple 0-padding function on strings.
03:16	danlentz	y just checkin --- you've been on a roll so I figured I'd ask just in case :)
03:17	danlentz	i hadnt noticed the cl-format issue before
03:17	danlentz	i'm sure there is a means of circumventing it
03:18	danlentz	people do really magical things wioth cl-format
03:18	danlentz	(unfortunately I'm not one of them..)
03:19	abaranosky	"hey"
03:21	abaranosky	egghost:
03:21	abaranosky	sorry for the spam guys... I'm learning to use IRC via Emacs, and making noob mistakes. :\
03:25	sszzqq	Cloujure could run in JVM & CLR, I think it could run in Perl/Ruby/Python, even Common Lisp.
03:27	abaranosky	sszzqq: it could!
03:27	andyfingerhut	tbaldridge (I think) wrote https://github.com/halgari/clojure-py
03:28	abaranosky	andyfingerhut: yep, that's by Tim Baldridge, indeed
03:28	sszzqq	Clojure could transfer to Javascript, I think it also could transfer Lua/Ruby/Perl/...
03:28	abaranosky	I wonder, is it production quality?
03:28	abaranosky	my impression is that only JVM Clojurea nd ClojureScript are indeed production ready
03:29	danlentz	andyfingerhut: how about https://www.refheap.com/20284
03:29	andyfingerhut	danlentz: Your cl-format-fu is certainly stronger than mine :)
03:30	SegFaultAX	A number of implementations have been started including Python and Lua. I don't think they've seen much work, though.
03:30	andyfingerhut	abaranosky: tbaldridge is probably the best to comment on production-worthiness of clojure-py. Clojure CLR has a few users, I think, but I've never tried it.
03:30	SegFaultAX	Hopefully Clojure in Clojure will bring down the barrier to entry for new impls.
03:31	abaranosky	andyfingerhut: cl-format is a wonder to behold
03:32	abaranosky	andyfingerhut: and to be fair, these are only my impressions, not actual facts :)
03:32	andyfingerhut	abaranosky: Yes, every time I see an even slightly complex example of it, I wonder :)
03:32	danlentz	andyfingerhut: its pretty flimsy actually -- kind of a punt to use cl-format and clj.core/format both like that I think
03:32	danlentz	but a punt which works...
03:32	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: How's Staples?
03:33	andyfingerhut	danlentz: yes, it does work. You could simplify its format string to [%016X]" I think.
03:33	andyfingerhut	danlentz: Unless you like being explicit about argument position numbers.
03:34	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: How has the transition been for Runa?
03:34	danlentz	actually i've discovered that cl-format gives much much more informative error messages than CL format (at least under SBCL and prob most othetrs)
03:34	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: hey do I know you by real-life name? re: Staples, the acquisition has been really great. We've got ~5 planned machine-learning-based projects to improve conversion rates on the stples online store
03:35	abaranosky	we're remodelling the whole office, and in general expanding excitedly
03:35	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: We met at that prismatic thing a couple weeks ago.
03:35	danlentz	clojure.pprint/cl-format, correspondingly, is a hell of a lot easier to deal with
03:35	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: That's awesome! Congratulations again. :)
03:35	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: as far as transition I'd say it feels mostly the same, but witha transition to a one merchant focus
03:36	SegFaultAX	I'm always curious to see how little companies transition into big companies, especially via acquisition.
03:36	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: what's your name again? I met alot of people at the prismatic meetup
03:37	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: Staples is explicitly keeping us separate from the huge monoithic company structure, so as to give some innovation to pipe back into the mohtership
03:37	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: Michael-Keith (MK). Same nick on twitter if you're better with faces.
03:38	abaranosky	ah nice, recognize the face now :)
03:38	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: Is the Runa group dropping all the branding in favor of the Labs title?
03:39	abaranosky	I watched these videos by Tie Baldridge and loved them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3PZMIwXN_g&noredirect=1
03:39	abaranosky	yeah, we're not Runa anymore
03:39	abaranosky	but I hate saying Stples Innovation Lab. Too long.
03:39	clojurebot	excusez-moi
03:39	abaranosky	and SIL isn't very pronouncable
03:40	SegFaultAX	No, I don't suppose it is. Haha.
03:40	abaranosky	SIL is now going to be responsible for creating a variety of services to feed to the website... things like intelligent search, and recommendations engines
03:41	SegFaultAX	Is the scope pretty open or do you have specific projects?
03:42	abaranosky	specific projects for the first 6 months we've got planned, but as time goes by the scope will expand to more services as the business folks think of more
03:43	SegFaultAX	That's pretty great. Plus you probably have massive databases of data to train on.
03:43	abaranosky	yeah, and we've got allllllll of staples data too
03:44	abaranosky	Right now, we're looking to expand our developer-pool and data scientisit pool a ton. We'll be at Clojure Conj with a tables setup recruiting I'm sure.
03:45	SegFaultAX	abaranosky: Is Staples all Java on the backend?
03:45	SegFaultAX	At least from the web side.
03:46	abaranosky	youmean the mothership right?
03:46	abaranosky	they're using WebShpere ... the innovation lab has only a very small few files of Java
03:46	abaranosky	:D
03:48	SegFaultAX	"They're" don't you mean "we"? ;)
03:53	jared314	is there something like doseq without the bindings? i'm code golfing
03:53	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: "They" referring to the mothership
03:54	SegFaultAX	Is mothership staples in this instance?
03:54	abaranosky	jared314: `dotimes`
03:54	llasram	jared314: `do`? I'm not sure how the `seq` part would work w/o bindings :-)
03:54	abaranosky	the main Staples org... it's not an official term, hehe
03:54	llasram	jared314: Unless you mean `doall`/`dorun`
03:55	abaranosky	llasram, jared314: yeah depends what the code is actually doing
03:55	jared314	llasram: i need the side effects but not the result
03:55	jared314	https://www.refheap.com/20285
03:55	llasram	Sounds like `dorun`
03:56	jared314	llasram: but i need the looping
03:56	llasram	jared314: OOC, what is that macro doing which it would be difficult to do in a function?
03:56	abaranosky	llasram: seems like 'nothing'
03:56	llasram	jared314: `dorun` walks a lazy seq, forcing all side effects, but discarding the results and not holding the head
03:57	llasram	If you actually need to do something with each value, then you do need the bindings
03:57	jared314	i have to print them
03:58	llasram	You could (dorun (map println col)), but `doseq` is about the same length and clearer
03:58	abaranosky	jared314: if it were jusst printing I'd say to do something like (apply println (map f s2)) ... but you are also calling read-line
03:58	jared314	yeah, that is the hard part
03:58	abaranosky	when you have IO peppered in a function, it is hard to avoid this kind of verbose procedural code
03:59	jared314	abaranosky: and it has to be a macro because doc arguments
04:00	abaranosky	you could do: (apply println (interleave i# (repeat "\n"))) but this is longer and weirder than your implementation :D
04:01	jared314	previously i was using println string/join, but doseq println is shorter
04:01	abaranosky	it is shorter and cleaner
04:02	llasram	jared314: doc arguments?
04:02	SegFaultAX	Well presumably if you're golfing, it doesn't matter how weird it is.
04:02	SegFaultAX	As long as you're shaving bytes.
04:02	SegFaultAX	Bytes are like yaks, all of them must be shaved.
04:02	abaranosky	yeah, I guess I'm not really a golfer in my heart of hearts
04:02	llasram	Oh, calling `doc`
04:03	jared314	the point of it is to paginate the output of doc
04:03	abaranosky	what type does 'doc' expect
04:03	jared314	doc is a macro
04:03	llasram	It's unfortunately a macro :-/
04:03	SegFaultAX	Lisps don't tend to be the best golfing langs in my experience.
04:03	SegFaultAX	Golfing is one time where the parens really do bite you.
04:04	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: they come pregolfed in a sense
04:04	jared314	then clojure needs more arrows
04:04	abaranosky	not golfed like Perl..., but compared to most languages, you don't have much cruft you can pull out
04:05	SegFaultAX	Heh, well perl golfing is a different level.
04:05	abaranosky	if you want to know, a better way to write this is to make doc2 a macro, but then implement sa fn like doc2-fn that implements everything execpt for the (split-at ....) sexp
04:05	SegFaultAX	That's Odin-tier golfing, and only because of metavars.
04:06	abaranosky	... hmmmm , I think I'm too tired to think this through fully, but it looks suspect to need tha tmany lines of macro code
04:06	SegFaultAX	Err perlvars rather.
04:07	abaranosky	Perl really is the only true golfing imho
04:07	abaranosky	jared314: I found a way to trim your code!!!
04:08	SegFaultAX	Well and J/K/APL
04:08	SegFaultAX	But when you invent your own glyphs, that's sort of cheating isn't it?
04:08	jared314	abaranosky: ?
04:08	abaranosky	add (let [p# println]) then call p# everywhere instead of println
04:08	abaranosky	that saves you a few chars right?
04:09	SegFaultAX	jared314: Nevermind golfing, convert your macro to swearjure if you want to be truly elite.
04:10	abaranosky	SegFaultAX: life is not fair
04:10	jared314	i saw that presentation, it was in line with bf and whitespace
04:10	abaranosky	take it easy gents, time for bed :)
04:11	SegFaultAX	Me too, night.
04:15	jared314	oh well, i think it is as short as i'm going to get it right now
04:17	amalloy	jared314: (.. getTerminal getHeight) is shorter as .getTerminal .getHeight
04:18	jared314	amalloy: not with the extra parens
04:18	amalloy	what extra parens?
04:18	amalloy	just put in what i wrote
04:18	jared314	oh using the arrow
04:18	jared314	true
04:19	amalloy	and of course your doseq could be a local fn: (let [q# #(doseq [x# %] (p# x))] ...) should save a couple characters
04:23	jared314	thanks for the help, i'm going to call it a night
04:56	algal	I notice "lein deps :tree" helpfully warns me that some of my project dependencies don't get along well. It seems like their transitive dependencies are over-riding each other. can anyone point me to a link on how to think about or solve this problem?
04:58	beppu	(for all the grief javascript gets, the one thing they got very right was the ability to load multiple versions of the same library)
05:02	vijaykiran	algal: you can use exclusions to get rid of unwanted depenedencies
05:02	vijaykiran	algal: e.g., https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L47
05:02	algal	beppu: I take it that we can't do that in JVM-land, that's why leiningen etc need to have a policy to choose just one version of the library, and that's why it gives warning when different project components depend on different versions?
05:04	beppu	algal: I believe that's the case (but I'm new to Clojure and I don't have much experience w/ JVM langs, so I can't say for sure) </disclaimer> ;)
05:04	algal	vijaykiran: Is there any documentation on exclusions that is not maven documentation?
05:05	vijaykiran	algal: I'm not aware of any OTOH, but dependency management is done via maven deps - so that docs should be helpful
05:05	clgv	beppu: algal: well even in theory ths dependency problem seems not solvable as soon as you depend on two incompatible versions of a library and need to pass data between them through the transitive call hierarchy
05:06	algal	clgv: I would settle for the problem being solvable in practice.
05:06	clgv	algal: you just exclude the lib in the dependency that pulls in the undesired version
05:07	algal	So (dumb question, maybe) what's the rule of thumb here, when lein deps :tree spits out an alarming cascade of warning about override leading versions ?
05:07	clgv	algal: not really on the technical site but on the social site by pushing the maintainer of the lib that transitively pulls in an old version of the conflicting lib to upgrade ;)
05:07	algal	Should I spend my days lovingly curating a set of exclusion declarations so that the project only pulls the latest and greatest?
05:08	clgv	algal: well in practice I have only one or two exclusion statements per project
05:08	beppu	the social solution seems to be the best course of action
05:09	mindbend`	what's the most popular to automate deployment of clojure applications?
05:09	clojurebot	Excuse me?
05:10	mindbend`	clojurebot: I'll strangle you now
05:10	clojurebot	I don't understand.
05:12	clgv	mindbend`: there is pallet but I don't know about its general popularity
05:12	clgv	mindbend`: for deployment to several remote machines
05:12	algal	what decides what overrides what? Is it the order of dependencies in my ns form dictating the order of jars which dictates the lookup order in the classpath?
05:12	clgv	algal: afaik lein just picks one of the versions
05:13	algal	at random, each time? Inconceivable. Mr Technomancy is all about repeatability. So there must be a rule that makes it deterministic.
05:13	clgv	algal: no, not at random
05:14	clgv	algal: you gotta look up what rule is used since I did not care too much for that yet to investigate it
05:15	algal	clgv: seems like dependency order is driving it, presumably via jar order -> class path order.
05:19	clgv	algal: huh? I thought you meant the rule that selects the version of the dependency that is transitively depended on in two different versions
05:19	algal	clgv: I did.
05:20	clgv	algal: so why are you talking about classpath order then?
05:21	algal	clgv: because I think dependency order is translating into classpath order, and so the dependency order is determining which transitive dependencies are shadowed by earlier items on the classpath.
05:21	llasram	algal: Leiningen picks one version of any given dep to put on the classpath, using the same algorithm as Maven.
05:21	algal	llasram: agreed. what is that algorithm?
05:22	clgv	algal: no. there is only one version of the lib on the classpath
05:22	llasram	Order by (top-most, earliest)
05:22	clgv	algal: everything else would be insane ;)
05:22	llasram	So dependencies you specify override transitive deps. Deps directly specified by any of your deps beat further transitive deps, etc
05:22	llasram	Any conflicts at the same depth are resolved by earliest-first
05:23	algal	llasram: "earlier" in time? in version number? in what?
05:23	llasram	Earlier in the dependency list
05:23	llasram	Yeah, wasn't clear :-)
05:23	algal	llasram: aaah! okay.
05:24	algal	llasram: thanks,this is enlightening.
05:24	algal	feels sort of impossible to understand clojure's tooling without understanding Java's, which is sad.
05:25	clgv	algal: thats just wrong since leiningen is clojure tooling
05:25	llasram	It's more to take on to really master the ecosystem, but also is part of how much leverage you get with Clojure
05:27	algal	thanks for the help, chaps. g'night.
06:32	nonuby	when in a http-kit (async http client) callback if I want to push a result on a core.async.channel presumably I use the blocking version of 'put' >!! since the http-kit has a seperate threadpool
06:33	nonuby	since it doesnt make sense to stick the work of pushing onto a channel on to the core.async threadpool ?
06:50	andrewmcveigh	Hi, I have a macro 'with-action, and I'd like it to know whether it's called within itself E.G., (with-action :beat-up (some-fn (with-action :kick ...))) - is there a non-awful way for the action :kick to know that it's part of a larger action :beat-up?
06:51	andrewmcveigh	not a very good example... I know.
06:56	llasram	andrewmcveigh: Depending on what you're trying to achieve, there's a few different approaches...
06:56	llasram	Does `with-action` need to its scope during macro-expansion, or during evaluation?
06:57	llasram	s,need to,need to know,
06:58	andrewmcveigh	llasram: Well, I'm just toying around. Essentially, I'm trying to transform the body of code passed into it. But I'd like the transformation to be a bit different if it's called within a larger action.
06:58	andrewmcveigh	So macro-expansion time, I guess?
07:00	llasram	Ok, in which case "within" can only mean "within the lexical scope of the larger action" -- if arguments contain function calls which contain more `with-action` calls, you have no way of impacting them
07:01	llasram	So then probably the easiest thing to do is use clojure.walk or one of the libraries specific to code-walking macros and modify the `with-action` calls to contain the full stack of actions within scope
07:02	llasram	I believe ztellman's is the most complete ATM: https://github.com/ztellman/riddley
07:02	llasram	Note that if you want this to be something which happens at run time via dynamic scope, it's waaaaay easier :-)
07:05	andrewmcveigh	llasram: Thanks. Not done any code-walking stuff yet. Mostly shyed away from it...
07:06	andrewmcveigh	Maybe it's time to have a look... I have a week off work :)
08:17	Jarda	is there a 'standard' equivalent for the nodejs NODE_ENV variable?
08:32	glosoli	Hey, any ideas what could be wrong with such interop in for https://www.refheap.com/4b0b8a303448d107f745a02d2 I get index out of bounds exception, I am sure it retrieve page object properly
08:44	jkkramer	glosoli: for is lazy and would be realized after the stream has been closed. wrapping it in (doall) should help
08:45	glosoli	jkkramer: thank sir, you saved me a headache! :)
09:19	arrdem	3
10:02	Jarda	hi
10:03	Jarda	if if I have a vector [1 2 3 4 5 6] how can I multiply 1 and 4 by 2, 2 and 5 by 3, 4 and 6 by 4
10:03	Jarda	I tried take-nth but couldn't get it to work as I wanted
10:04	Jarda	should I use map-indexed and check if index is dividable by 3 etc
10:05	ToBeReplaced	Jarda: i don't understand the algorithm.... can you put a more involved example?
10:06	Jarda	ToBeReplaced: the algorithm is the following: starting from left multiply first item by 2, second item by 3, third item by 4, fourth item by 2, fifth by 3, sixth by 4, seventh by 2 ... etc
10:07	ToBeReplaced	okay, you're down the right path -- you need map-indexed because you require the index
10:09	ToBeReplaced	there's a few other cutesie ways that don't involve the division -- ex. partition and map cat +
10:09	ToBeReplaced	,(doc cycle)
10:09	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
10:10	ToBeReplaced	so something like (map + v (cycle [2 3 4])) is prob sufficient
10:11	ToBeReplaced	,(map + (range 1 7) (cycle [2 3 4]))
10:11	clojurebot	(3 5 7 6 8 ...)
10:28	jcromartie	I'm patiently waiting for a paradigm that completel eliminates complexity in information systems.
10:28	clgv	jcromartie: could there ever be such a thing from a theoretical perspective?
10:33	milanj	how to set emacs/nrepl for loading clojure code that is part of java source tree
10:33	jcromartie	clgv: I don't know. I am becoming increasingly convinced that software is governed by the same laws of entropy as any physical system.
10:34	jcromartie	I haven't studied any systems engineering, though. My brother did his MS in systems engineering, and has gone on to write big-ball-of-mud software in PHP and Perl so far.
10:34	jcromartie	(for wall st)
10:35	clgv	jcromartie: PHP and Perl? shudders
10:35	jcromartie	not exactly HFT or anything, just conservative traders doing modelling
10:35	jcromartie	I can definitely buy the whole functional over OOP thing for reducing complexity at some level
10:36	jcromartie	but I think as an industry we just have no idea what we're doing
10:36	clgv	jcromartie: good intro to go back to call it "art of computer programming" ;)
10:36	jcromartie	"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."
10:38	jcromartie	so we have all these high-level many-moving-parts kind of solutions to complexity
10:39	jcromartie	I like what I'm seeing in dnolen's work with core.async in clojurescript
10:39	jcromartie	but there's no silver bullet right
10:39	clgv	jcromartie: fo mankind's sake I hope PHP will move to the second kind
10:39	jcromartie	but you can't argue that people get stuff done
10:40	jcromartie	and there's really no way to tell, from the outside, if some successful system is written in PHP or Clojure or Brainfuck for that matter
10:40	jcromartie	as long as we're talking about an opaque system that takes strings and turns them into other strings
10:40	clgv	jcromartie: but the problem is you can't measure how much money is wasted that way also if you consider security issues
10:44	jcromartie	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet
10:54	dav	How can I get clojure.pprint/pprint to print recursive hashes on multiple lines and with indent?
10:58	devn	dire looks pretty neat
11:00	devn	also, the datomic console -- excited to try that out
11:00	mdrogalis	devn: Thanks.
11:03	jcromartie	the pretty printer source code is something else
11:03	clgv	mdrogalis: does dire match exceptions to superclasses yez?
11:03	clgv	*yet
11:04	mdrogalis	clgv: Next release, probably 2 weeks away. Need to figure out how to specify priorities
11:04	mdrogalis	If you have a subclass, superclass, and predicate, which gets evaled first?
11:05	jcromartie	it looks a lot like your average mutable Java object design but with another level of indirection
11:05	jcromartie	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/pprint/pretty_writer.clj
11:05	clgv	oh nice. I was struggling with that when wanting to use dire for debugging
11:06	mdrogalis	I frankly just never thought of it until lately. :P
11:06	jcromartie	a struct with several refs in it :\|
11:06	mdrogalis	I'm emailing with someone who has an idea about it. I can make a GitHub issue for public discussion if you want to weigh in.
11:06	jcromartie	there has got to be a better way to make a pretty printer
11:08	clgv	mdrogalis: wont hierarchies with prefer-statements work?
11:08	cmajor7	jcromartie: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp ?
11:08	mdrogalis	clgv: Yeah, that is kind of what I was thinking.
11:08	mdrogalis	Sort of how multimethods do it.
11:09	jcromartie	cmajor7: nice
11:14	jtoy	why cant I turn a string into a buffered io stream with (clojure.java.io/input-stream "asdasd")? according to the docs I think that should work?
11:14	jtoy	,(clojure.java.io/input-stream "asdasd")
11:14	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
11:15	cmajor7	jtoy: (ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes s)) ?
11:16	llasram	jtoy: Try: ##(-> "example" .getBytes clojure.java.io/input-stream)
11:16	lazybot	⇒ #<BufferedInputStream java.io.BufferedInputStream@1713e71>
11:17	llasram	jtoy: The default conversion pathway for strings tries to treat them as filenames
11:17	llasram	But byte arrays ^^
11:19	jtoy	cool, testing it out
11:23	drorbemet	Hi, did any body use the 7-Zip-JBinding library http://sevenzipjbind.sourceforge.net/index.html ? Would you be so kind and direct me to som hints on how to use java libraries of this kind in clojure? Untill now I didn't had to deal with java exeptions and the like in clojure code.
11:26	joegallo	http://clojure.org/java_interop
11:27	joegallo	and http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--%28try%20expr%20catch-clause%20finally-clause?%29
11:27	joegallo	you can translate their example http://sevenzipjbind.sourceforge.net/snippets/GetNumberOfItemsInArchive.java into clojure pretty straightforwardly
11:28	joegallo	i usually start by pasting the java into a clj buffer, and then editing it into parens...
11:28	jtoy	llasram: cmajor7: yes, it worked!! thanks: (-> @(httpkit/get url :body .getBytes clojure.java.io/input-stream parse-feed :entries)
11:28	joegallo	then the .close calls become with-opens, and any assignments become lets
11:28	joegallo	next thing you know, bam, it's working ;)
11:33	drorbemet	Ah, thanks, slowly I get going, have a nice day :-)
11:35	joegallo	you're welcome. if you end up with something that's not quite working, just check back in. you can paste your code using a paste-bin like refheap.com and folks can give you pointers on where you might be going astray
11:35	joegallo	good luck!
11:37	Jarda	hi
11:37	Jarda	if I have a number X, how can I find the distance to number Y where Y is the next number with Y % 10 == 0
11:38	Jarda	so fo 84 I'd like to return 6 (84+6=90)
11:39	clgv	Jarda: integer division by 10, add 1 multiply by 10
11:39	jcromartie	is this homework?
11:39	Jarda	jcromartie: nope
11:39	jcromartie	:P
11:39	Jarda	I'm just having hard time with math today
11:39	Jarda	and thought there would be some 'ceil' function that would have the precision
11:39	clgv	Jarda: I described how to find Y. above
11:40	Jarda	clgv: yeah thanks
11:40	jcromartie	(defn next-po10 [n] (* 10 (inc (int (/ n 10)))))
11:40	clgv	(defn next-po10 [n] (* 10 (inc (quot n 10))))
11:41	clgv	more readable as seq of operations (defn next-po10 [n] (-> n (quot 10) inc (* 10)))
11:41	Jarda	thanks
11:41	hyPiRion	yeah
11:41	joegallo	what's the desired answer for 80? 80, or 90?
11:42	joegallo	i mean, sure 81 -> 90, but what about 80?
11:42	clgv	6 I guess
11:42	Jarda	joegallo: actually 80 would be fine
11:42	clgv	harr good one. he said "next" which I interpreted as greater relation ;)
11:42	hyPiRion	joegallo: next number
11:42	Jarda	but I can special case
11:42	joegallo	also, do you want the number (86 -> 90), or do you want the distance (4)?
11:43	jcromartie	clgv: nice refactor
11:43	Jarda	the distance actually
11:43	joegallo	,(- 10 (rem 86 10))
11:43	clojurebot	4
11:43	joegallo	there ya go
11:43	clgv	yeah right distance via modulo is easier ^^
11:43	Jarda	thanks
11:43	Jarda	I knew there's an elegant solution
11:44	jcromartie	yeah
11:44	Jarda	it's been a while since I last did basic math in uni..
11:44	joegallo	:)
11:44	hyPiRion	joegallo: actually, that should be mod instead of rem if you need to support negative integers
11:45	joegallo	true enough
11:45	hyPiRion	,(map (fn [f] (- 10 (f -12 10)) [rem mod])
11:45	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:45	hyPiRion	,(map (fn [f] (- 10 (f -12 10))) [rem mod])
11:45	clojurebot	(12 2)
11:52	jcromartie	this is a weird construct: (= (pos? num) (pos? div))
11:52	jcromartie	isn't that logical nor?
11:52	bbloom	seems reasonable to me
11:52	jcromartie	wait no
11:52	bbloom	assuming it makes sense in context
11:53	jcromartie	yeah I guess boolean equality is the right operator
11:54	bbloom	comparing if two booleans are equal is (comp not xor)
11:55	silasdavis	How can I cycle a list: [1 2 3] -> [2 3 1]
11:55	silasdavis	?
11:55	silasdavis	or the other way
11:56	joegallo	,(vec (take 3 (drop 1 (cycle [1 2 3])))
11:56	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:56	joegallo	,(vec (take 3 (drop 1 (cycle [1 2 3]))))
11:56	clojurebot	[2 3 1]
11:56	llasram	silasdavis: reverse...?
11:56	llasram	Oh, you want to rotate
11:58	silasdavis	yes
11:59	hyPiRion	,(let [q (into clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY [1 2 3]) elt (peek q)] (-> q pop (conj elt)))
11:59	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@7c3f>
11:59	hyPiRion	If you need performance, keep it as a queue
12:01	sritchie_	hey guys, has anyone here used clojurescript for a chatroom-like application?
12:01	sritchie_	I'm working on an example that uses websockets and redis pubsub behind the scenes to communicate between nodes serving the chat room -
12:02	sritchie_	most examples keep a map {userID -> websocket} around
12:03	sritchie_	with multiple chat rooms, I guess the way to go forward would be to keep a nested map of {room -> {id -> websocket}}
12:03	silasdavis	hyPiRion: thanks, why elt?
12:03	hyPiRion	because you need to push the element back in
12:04	hyPiRion	read as: set elt to the first element in the queue. Then remove the element and conjoin it to the end
12:11	silasdavis	no sorry I just wondered what elt stood for
12:12	silasdavis	element
12:12	silasdavis	right
12:12	silasdavis	looks like clojure.contrib.seq-utils has a rotations that would do what I'm after
12:12	silasdavis	but I cant' find that on clojars
12:12	silasdavis	or on the clojure git hub
12:18	llasram	silasdavis: it's a dead contrib
12:19	ToBeReplaced	sritchie: that's an example pedestal app if you google it
12:19	llasram	silasdavis: But easy enough to write as a function: ##((fn rotate [n coll] (->> (cycle coll) (drop n) (take (count coll)))) 1 [1 2 3])
12:19	lazybot	⇒ (2 3 1)
12:23	gfredericks	does kibit suppress unused-argument warnings if the arg starts with _?
12:24	silasdavis	llasram: better/worse?: (let [x [1 2 3]] (map (fn [n _] (concat (drop n x) (take n x))) (range) x))
12:25	silasdavis	oh I want all rotations, but is cycle better than concat
12:25	llasram	`cycle` uses `concat`, so really doesn't matter
12:30	jonasen	gfredericks: not sure what you mean?
12:32	sritchie_	cemerick, as the resident cljs genius, I have a quick design Q to run past you
12:32	sritchie_	if you have a second
12:33	cemerick	sritchie_: sure, but LOL, wtf, etc ;-P
12:33	sritchie_	haha
12:33	cemerick	I play Curly to dnolen's Moe.
12:34	sritchie_	I wouldn't be surprised to find out that dnolen is, in addition to being a javascript coder at NYT, cljs committer, also a war journalist, columnist, etc
12:34	sritchie_	somehow getting all of it done
12:34	sritchie_	cemerick: it's actually just my question from above, I'm just trying to flatter you to rope you in to answering :) I'm getting my websockets on in cljs,
12:35	sritchie_	with core.async
12:35	sritchie_	and the single chat room example that every has, using redis's pubsub to broadcast new chat messages between servers so they can tell the relevant websockets, is pretty clear
12:36	sritchie_	with a single chat room, each server instance maintains a map of userID -> websocket;
12:36	sritchie_	my Q is, if I want to tackle multiple chat rooms, is the "right way" to keep a nested map of room -> userid -> websocket?
12:36	dnolen	cemerick: your analysis of 643 looks good, been wanting to clean this up for a while - also it's why we have spurious protocol errors, race condition on namespaces since it's not currently thread safe - it should definitely be dynamically bindable
12:36	sritchie_	now that I type it out it sounds like that's the only damned way
12:37	cemerick	sritchie_: in {room -> {id -> websocket}}, what's the point of `id`?
12:37	cemerick	oh, userid....? Is this P2P?
12:38	tbaldrid_	cemerick: apparently not if he's using redis to route the messages
12:38	sritchie_	well, I guess I should be specific. What I'm actually trying to do is create a "live results" feature
12:38	sritchie_	for various athletic events
12:38	cemerick	tbaldrid_: oh, didn't catch that part
12:38	sritchie_	so, there might be five events going on at some race (men's, women's, 1 man boat, 2 man, etc)
12:38	sritchie_	and the race organizer is timing the thing and firing new results up to the server
12:39	sritchie_	so I'm trying to write a page that will allow new results to show up as they're posted for each event
12:39	cemerick	dnolen: I think we can get back to how e.g. ~1853 worked w.r.t. downstream tools/usage with a minimal set of changes. What are your specific concerns re: namespaces?
12:39	dnolen	cemerick: I don't really have any except that tools should be able to bind it to have thread safe builds
12:39	dnolen	but also REPLs
12:40	sritchie_	cemerick: tbaldridge_: I guess if sockets have proper equality I could keep a map of eventID -> Set[WebSocket]
12:40	cemerick	dnolen: I think being able to provide a compilation environment will superset that; there's no doubt that namespaces is touched the most of all though.
12:41	dnolen	cemerick: are you talking about some longer term thing - I don't see how the compilation environment fixes thread races on namespaces
12:41	NeedMoreDesu	Can I do something like this in clojure: start a background thread doing something, and on some part of calculations it executes some code back in main thread? like (future (let [result (heavy-calculations)] (execute-in-main-thread (some-thread-context-fn result))))
12:41	cemerick	sritchie_: If you have a single upstream producer, then why not have a single websocket/SSE source, and merge events it sends down into a top-level model? You can then watch/react on an atom holding that model to disperse bits of data into your view(s).
12:42	tbaldridge_	sritchie_: and I don't imagine that you would have billions of race results a minute, so why not send all the updates to all the websockets?
12:42	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: will your main thread be idle until the event?
12:42	sritchie_	tbaldridge_: and just have them filter the ones they want?
12:42	cemerick	sritchie_: Javelin does this for simple cases, pedestal front-end for more complex models...and CRDTs if you want the superset of 'em.
12:42	NeedMoreDesu	Nope, it'll execute something.
12:43	tbaldridge_	sritchie_: yep, just do client side filtering
12:43	sritchie_	that's a good call, actually
12:43	sritchie_	since, yeah, we're not talking much data here :)
12:43	NeedMoreDesu	I know I can deref or test if future is finished time to time, but that's not very convinient.
12:44	cemerick	dnolen: nothing longer-term; each compilation environment would be entirely separate. Races would be nigh-impossible.
12:44	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: I thought of using a promise either blocking or querying whether it is delivered
12:44	sritchie_	cemerick: that's a good route, for sure, but I'm more wondering how to do the routing to the right clients
12:45	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: you'll have to provide more details I guess
12:45	sritchie_	but tbaldridge_'s solution seems like the right one for now, then fix it in a year when we're at twitter scale and processing 10k races / sec
12:45	tbaldridge_	sritchie_: that's a whole lotta running :-P
12:45	technomancy	aren't you at twitter scale already?
12:45	sritchie_	tautologically, yes
12:46	cemerick	sritchie_: You mean if a client is looking at a subset of races? Yeah, I'd just send everything until it matters, as tbaldridge_ suggests.
12:46	silasdavis	is pop on a PersistentQueue constant time?
12:46	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: pretty close
12:46	silasdavis	but count wouldn't be?
12:47	dnolen	cemerick: not following at all, what will happen to namespaces? will it be bound around a compilation unit via some map containing a atom provided by the user? your comment is low on details.
12:47	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: count is a field on the class that's maintained by conj/pop. So yes, that is also constant time.
12:48	dnolen	cemerick: anyways, gotta run for a bit, feel free to update the ticket w/ details.
12:48	NeedMoreDesu	clgv: Imagine main thread as some gui thread. And gui functions can be used only in main thread. And then we have some heavy calculations, that need to be done in parallel, and just use some main-thread fn's.
12:48	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: swing? there are a functions/methods in swing to execute something in th GUI thread
12:48	cemerick	dnolen: the namespaces get swapped into the compilation env atom, as they are now, just under a particular key. One compiler caller's `namespaces` never touches another's.
12:49	cemerick	sure, I'll expand a bit on the ticket
12:51	silasdavis	tbaldridge_: ah so it is, so no point doing (reductions (fn [q _] (rotate-queue q)) queue (pop queue)) over (reductions (fn [q _] (rotate-queue q)) queue (range (- (count queue) 1)))?
12:51	NeedMoreDesu	clgv: so this is library features, right?
12:53	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: rotate-queue?
12:55	NeedMoreDesu	clgv: I'm looking for something like this, actually http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10558019/does-using-dispatch-get-main-queue-mean-that-my-code-will-be-on-the-main-threa
12:55	silasdavis	tbaldridge_: (conj (pop queue) (peek queue)))
12:56	kolemannix	Hey guys I have this function that takes 3 collections (all of the same length), operates on each triple using map, and returns a single collection of the same length
12:56	silasdavis	tbaldridge_: (defn rotate-queue [queue] (conj (pop queue) (peek queue))))
12:56	kolemannix	something like this (defn format-instruction [op locn comm]
12:56	kolemannix	90 (str (encode op) \tab locn \tab (pad op) comm))
12:56	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: yes, in Swing it is e.g. http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/javax/swing/SwingUtilities.html#invokeAndWait%28java.lang.Runnable%29
12:57	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: ick, that doesn't seem like a good idea. There's got to be a better way of doing whatever you're trying to do.
12:57	clgv	NeedMoreDesu: or invokeLater
12:57	silasdavis	tbaldridge_: which part?
12:58	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: if you read the implementation of PersistentQueue.java (it's pretty simple actually) you can see that rotate-queue will use queues in a way they aren't really meant to be used in.
12:59	kolemannix	What's the best way to pass "state" into a function?
12:59	kolemannix	I have a function that operates on 3 collections, but I need to give it some additional information
12:59	NeedMoreDesu	clgv: ok, thanks
13:00	kolemannix	I don't really want to pass in the "state" info as a 4th argument
13:00	rasmusto	kolemannix: I've done something similar with reduce (and a state map as the other argument)
13:00	tbaldridge_	silasdavis: I mean it works, its just it seems that something like a LinkedList would work better, or even doing nth on a vector.
13:00	rasmusto	kolemannix: why don't you want the 4th arg?
13:01	kolemannix	I was just wondering if there's a better way to give the state map
13:01	kolemannix	I guess I can use a 4th arg
13:02	dnolen	cemerick: ok sure like I said above. Do you want to take this patch on?
13:02	cemerick	dnolen: replied on the ticket.
13:03	rasmusto	kolemannix: this probably isn't 100% what you want, but it shows how I use reduce + a state map https://www.refheap.com/19930
13:03	cemerick	dnolen: well, it has to be done. The `reset` approach is just broken IMO, esp. for REPLs. I'm happy to do the refactor, but I'll need help esp. with testing source maps, since I don't use them at all, and it doesn't look like there's any automated tests around them?
13:04	dnolen	cemerick: writing tests for them is difficult because of unpredictable loss around inlining and dead code elimination
13:05	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, not faulting the lack of tests, but I suspect you're the only one that has any idea how they should work :-)
13:05	dnolen	cemerick: we could write some for the simpler cases, but I really don't see how you could mess up source maps w/ this change. source maps tracking is per file and not really exposed
13:06	dnolen	cemerick: beyond the compiled-cljs caching
13:06	kolemannix	rasmusto: Thanks, even though it's not the same thing it helps
13:06	cemerick	dnolen: Yeah, the refactor is actually a pretty straightforward transformation from (swap! data-name assoc ...) to (swap! compile-env update-in [:data-name] assoc ...)
13:06	cemerick	namespaces being maybe a bit different, but we'll see
13:07	cemerick	the relation between REPL envs and compilation env is the biggest unknown at the moment.
13:08	dnolen	cemerick: I don't see any obvious issues, the CLJS compiler is REPL centric
13:08	dnolen	cemerick: outside of closure.clj
13:10	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, agreed
13:12	dnolen	cemerick: one issue is accessing namespaces from macros, with your compilation environment idea it will be different
13:12	dnolen	cemerick: that's the real breaking change
13:14	dnolen	cemerick: could be avoided reading out namespaces and binding it seperately to support old interface
13:14	cemerick	dnolen: there are macros that look at ana/namespaces directly?
13:15	dnolen	cemerick: that's whole idea, literally since day 1
13:15	dnolen	part of the original design since there are no vars
13:17	dav	How can I get clojure.pprint/pprint to print recursive hashes on multiple lines and with indent?
13:19	cemerick	dnolen: as long as the usage is read-only, then yeah, ana/namespaces can be updated to mirror the value of the :namespaces slot in the compiler env. Can you point to a macro that looks at ana/namespaces now, though? Looks like extend-type et al. are the only ones in cljs itself?
13:19	clgv	dav: maybe you can convince "fipp" easier to do that
13:19	dnolen	cemerick: it is the intended use case, Rich said this himself
13:21	dnolen	cemerick: the question is whether we should push the idea further and leave direct namespaces access behind, and provide more utilities like cljs.analyzer/resolve-var to accomplish the same thing.
13:21	cemerick	dnolen: fine enough, wasn't aware of the word ;-P Any chance the discussion was online?
13:24	dav	clgv: nope that one prints on one line too..
13:27	dnolen	cemerick: can't find anything beyond the source, but it's come up in conversation before when people have complained about lack of vars.
13:27	cemerick	yah, ok
13:27	dnolen	cemerick: whatever we come up with 643 should support reading namespaces for sure
13:28	bbloom	dnolen: did you see https://github.com/YaroslavGaponov/node-jvm ?
13:28	cemerick	dnolen: aside from maintaining the existing "api", shouldn't they just hang off of &env?
13:28	dnolen	cemerick: the namespace isn't in &env
13:29	dnolen	cemerick: &env is just the local environment of the compilation unit
13:29	dnolen	cemerick: I think conflating the two when they aren't conflated in Clojure doesn't make much sense anyhow
13:29	dav	so seriously, there's no canned function for pretty priting nested structures nicely?
13:30	dnolen	bbiab
13:30	cemerick	dnolen: Clojure has ambient access to namespaces/vars; seems like binding ana/namespaces into &env makes sense, so that macros would rely upon analyzer impl. details less.
13:31	jcromartie	dav: did fipp not look good?
13:31	bbloom	dav: clojure.pprint is included and my fipp is available as an extensible option if you need to build your own pretty printer
13:34	dav	jcromartie / bbloom - I can't seem to get them to print the structure on multiple lines.
13:34	dav	I guess they deem the width to narrow?
13:34	bbloom	dav: what structure?
13:34	dav	{:a 1 :b {:c 3 :d 4}}
13:35	bbloom	yeah, that's pretty narrow :-P both pprint and fipp are targeted at pretty printing for humans. they are not uniform indenters
13:35	bbloom	you can force fipp to do something naive for indenting if you just print with {:width 1}
13:35	dav	score! thanks.
13:37	dav	sigh, it doesn't make [[[[:a :b]]] [[:c :d]] [:e :f]] readable at all :(
13:38	bbloom	dav: if you know the schema of your data, you can write your own pretty printer with fipp trivially
13:38	bbloom	look at https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/fipp/edn.clj
13:38	bbloom	you juse use defprinter & you can make a custom pretty printer in a handful of lines of code as pure functions
13:40	dav	bbloom: I just wanted to print some data structure from 4clojure in a readable way
13:41	bbloom	dav: both pprint and fipp are tuned for making realistic data easy to read. if you're having trouble reading that tiny data structure, i don't know what to do for you other than to suggest you copy paste it in to your editor and turn on brace-matching :-P
13:42	bbloom	dav: if you want a particular style of indentation, you can achieve whatever you want with fipp and it's seriously both simple AND easy
13:46	coventry	dav: Do you use paredit-mode in emacs? Put the cursor just after the first [, and C-M-f / C-M-b will move between the top-level elements of the list.
13:47	bbloom	dav: also, aren't you a haskell convert? how could you possibly think that small list is hard to read? :-)
13:48	coventry	Come on, parsing a deeply nested structure without automation is tedious and error prone. :-)
13:49	bbloom	particularly with associativity :-P
13:53	dav	coventry: I ended up doing the equivalent in vim
13:53	dav	bbloom: that data structure is invalid in haskell ;-)
13:54	dav	bbloom: (variable depth recursive lists..)
13:54	bbloom	yup, you'd need to wrap every damn thing in a descriminated union... weeeeee fun times
13:54	dav	bbloom: you just wouldn't ;-)
13:55	bitemyapp	dav: exactly how is it invalid?
13:57	dav	bitemyapp: lists in haskell are lists of some specific type, not lists of "Any". So unless you define a tree structure or use the either type, you can't have a list of "sometimes lists, sometimes things'
13:58	bitemyapp	okay, but when you said that, I was thinking about Either and trees as counterpoints.
13:58	bitemyapp	I wanted to make certain I hadn't missed something.
13:58	dnolen	bbloom: oh whoa, a JVM bite code interpreter in Node, heh
13:58	dnolen	er byte
13:58	bitemyapp	I would prefer not to think of that Haskell "can't", but rather, Haskell encourages you to keep its type system in the loop on what the fuck is going on.
13:58	bitemyapp	dnolen: hella slow, but amusing.
13:59	coventry	Someone should hook it up to js source maps so we can have a real clojure jvm debugger. :-)
13:59	shaungilchrist	hahah!
14:00	dav	bitemyapp: yes. and I wouldn't need the pretty printer in haskell because the type system would tell me exactly what I need to handle ;-)
14:00	coventry	bitemyapp: I know, I know.
14:03	bitemyapp	dav: that's probably the greatest gift I got from learning Haskell. Thinking in types.
14:03	bitemyapp	Most compressed and efficient way to think about programs I can think of.
14:04	tbaldridge_	dav: that's probably the greatest gift I got from learning Clojure. Thinking in data. Most compressed and code efficient way to think about programs I can think of. </troll>
14:04	tbaldridge_	I'm sorry everyone, I couldn't resist.
14:05	dav	I love macros and the access to the JVM libraries, but despite these massive advantages, I'm still quite on the fence.
14:06	coventry	dav: I'm curious about frege as a jvm-based alternative to haskell. Do you have an opinion about it?
14:07	dnolen	dav: there's always Frege
14:09	dav	coventry / dnolen - first time I hear of it. Will look into.
14:10	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: types are about recognizing no data is a special snowflake. Nothing is exempt from categorization or pattern recognition.
14:10	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: further, types can describe morphisms across huge swaths of the program, data stands alone.
14:11	dnolen	dav: https://github.com/Frege/frege
14:12	bbloom	grumble grumble... something something about how types should be optional b/c in theory any data could have multiple interpretations via types.... people conflate types and tags... grumble grumble
14:12	tbaldridge_	But why would I need any of that? The whole thing with types is that they supposedly provide some sort of way to reason about code. But then you see talks like "The Problem With Types" or "Molog" and you realize types are holding these people back from getting stuff done.
14:13	bitemyapp	well it's a trade-off, like everything else. But you'll note that I said Haskell's greatest gift (to me) was letting me think in types - day job is Clojure. Clojure was my decision.
14:13	bitemyapp	It's worth considering that there might be value in the abstract faculty for thinking in types and categories even when somebody uses and prefers Clojure.
14:13	dav	I've found that the times the typesystem is in the way is when writing macros
14:13	dav	Every other time, the typesystem is incredibly helpful
14:13	coventry	I thought it was interesting in "The Trouble with Types" that Odersky cited the constraint a type system places on people as a source of good design. Seemed to miss the point at little.
14:14	dav	And I've yet to write a program in Haskell that compiles but crashes or produces any eroneous output
14:14	tbaldridge_	coventry: yeah I have a big problem with that talk. He basically states that good design is finding things that fit into the typesystem well. I remember crazy talk like that from my OOP days.
14:14	bitemyapp	dav: that's easiest to accomplish when you aren't using dynlibs.
14:14	dav	bitemyapp: what is?
14:15	bitemyapp	non-crashing Haskell programs.
14:15	hiredman	I cannot imagine trying to do minikanren with a strong type system
14:15	bitemyapp	hiredman: static*
14:15	dnolen	dav: no erroneous output? you must do a lot of testing.
14:15	hiredman	fighting with go's is hard enough
14:15	bitemyapp	Clojure is a strong type system.
14:15	eric_normand	hello!
14:15	bitemyapp	eric_normand: hi!
14:16	dnolen	eric_normand: yo
14:16	eric_normand	jvm on heroku is working funny
14:16	eric_normand	:(
14:16	tbaldridge_	hiredman: that's what molog is, and yeah it was a interesting talk but boiled down to "we can't do this in Haskell, so I cheated in these ways..."
14:16	dav	bitemyapp: what are dynlibs
14:16	bitemyapp	dynamic libraries yo.
14:16	hiredman	tbaldridge_: right, he did the clojure west talk
14:16	dav	dnolen: I've never written a test
14:16	tbaldridge_	hiredman: yeah, I forgot that video was out.
14:16	dav	dnolen: but then again I haven't written that much Haskell..
14:17	eric_normand	anyone else have trouble with clojure.java.io/resources returning a URL for a directory?
14:17	dnolen	dav: heh, well there's not much more to talk about then.
14:17	llasram	eric_normand: In what sense?
14:17	llasram	(of trouble)
14:17	dnolen	dav: nearly every serious Haskell book / person talks about testing. Not testing is only for goofy blog posts.
14:17	dav	dnolen: it's just that when I write clojure (or any other language), I run snippets of code 50 times and they crash until I fix all the little bugs. In haskell it runs from the first time (but i have to try to compile it 50 times)
14:18	eric_normand	llasram: (clojure.java.io/resource "static/") is returning a url on heroku
14:18	tbaldridge_	dav: BINGO!
14:18	dav	dnolen: agreed. I never built a large scale app.
14:18	tbaldridge_	(inc dav)
14:18	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:18	hiredman	x is a logic var, but that logic var may be unified with something else, I dunno of any type system that could deal with that without making everything a union type with lvar
14:18	eric_normand	llasram: but returns null on my local machine
14:18	dav	tbaldridge_: I'm immutable ;-)
14:18	rasmusto	dav: that's a good point. Does either one of those methods feel more interactive? I tend to prefer seeing erroneous output over compiler errors
14:18	bitemyapp	I find peoples' eager glee at avoiding learning new things disturbing.
14:18	eric_normand	llasram: is causing ring/wrap-resources to read it as input stream, which doesn't break but is empty
14:18	llasram	eric_normand: It depends on the class path. io/resource will always return either `nil` or a URL.
14:18	llasram	Ahhh
14:18	llasram	Yeah
14:19	eric_normand	llasram: seems like new behavior. it was working before!
14:19	rasmusto	s/interactive/productive
14:19	llasram	There was a recent change in Leiningen to add directory entries to (uber)jars, as the spec apparently actually requires
14:19	eric_normand	llasram: I see
14:19	llasram	But most versions of ring apparently have issues
14:20	eric_normand	llasram: let me update leiningen
14:20	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: I just don't have time anymore. I can't even bring myself to learn more emacs, let alone a new language.
14:20	dav	rasmusto: when some clojure function expects a list and gets a nil or a number or something and barfs, the errors aren't particularly helpful. Plus if this happens in an untested branch of an if statement, your user may crash an app that would never have compiled in Haskell...
14:20	llasram	eric_normand: I would more suggest updating ring
14:20	bbloom	hiredman: there is some recent progress on typing logic vars
14:20	llasram	eric_normand: Or if that's not an option, downgrading leiningen
14:20	justin_smith	hlship: regarding the challenge last night, I found M-x javadoc-lookup (provided by the javadoc-lookup package)
14:20	bbloom	dataflow & logic variables in type sytesm: www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
14:20	eric_normand	llasram: I don't know if I can downgrade it on leningen
14:20	bbloom	basically adds fractional and negative types to the notion of sub and product types
14:21	bbloom	s/sub/sum
14:21	cmajor7	In regards to "Problem With Types": I feel that Scala needs types. Scala can't survive its "implicit" complexity without types. Scala is so far more complex with comparison to something like Haskell or ML, that it must have something to hide behind and hold it together. Clojure has a very strong type system, but it is not leaking out and does not hurt the end user (Clojure developer), where in Scala it always is a battle of something being not "contravariant
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:21	hjvbe8hgqt4kjh98	Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:21	hiredman	technomancy: !!!!!!
14:21	dav	wtf
14:21	eric_normand	llasram: thanks. I can now reproduce the problem on my local machine! :)
14:22	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I like to think of types as an opportunity for leverage, especially in situations where a codebase begins getting larger.
14:22	llasram	eric_normand: np
14:22	bbloom	dav: it's actually much easier to write a haskell program that segfaults than a java one :-)
14:22	bitemyapp	cmajor7: that Scala mis-uses that leverage to paper over bad complexity is their fault. Haskell and ML do a much better job
14:22	bbloom	the word "unsafe" is a scientifically accurate term when you have unsafeIO or whatever
14:22	dav	bbloom: segfault is just one particular kind of crash..
14:23	hiredman	bbloom: gross
14:23	bbloom	right, but the JVM for example enforces safety dynamically
14:23	bbloom	even tho Java is statically typed, the runtime enforces safety with dynamic checks
14:23	bitemyapp	You don't need unsafePerformIO in Haskell any more than you need mutability in Clojure.
14:24	bbloom	where as haskell punts, b/c many of their optimizations rely on a smarter compiler and a dumber runtime
14:24	dav	bbloom: right, that's like saying my computer won't explode when my program segfaults (popping the stack by 1 level)
14:24	cmajor7	bitemyapp: that's the thing with Clojure.. you very rarely work with a "large" codebase
14:24	bitemyapp	the practical reality of writing Haskell is that you get an "assistant" as you write your program. It's a pleasant experience.
14:24	bbloom	well yeah, you're relying on your operating system's dynamic checks :-P
14:25	eric_normand	llasram: I hadn't noticed that ring was upgraded. There was a fix for it
14:25	bitemyapp	cmajor7: avoiding the hard work that sometimes needs to be done isn't a win.
14:25	eric_normand	llasram: thanks a bunch!
14:25	rasmusto	dav: okay, gotcha. Clojure null pointers definitely make me scratch my head
14:25	bbloom	hiredman: yeah, it's gross, but apparently it actually simlifies signatures for a lot of things that were hard to do in a typed context before.
14:25	bitemyapp	cmajor7: one should of course, avoid attacking problems that don't need to be attacked, but that response is just putting your head in the sand.
14:25	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I've been hurt in my efforts in Clojure for want of type-checking in much smaller programs than you might suspect.
14:25	dav	time for me to go to bed. good chatting with you all..
14:26	bitemyapp	not to mention how HORRENDOUSLY painful refactoring dynamically typed programs can be once they become non-trivial.
14:26	hlship	know my pain
14:27	cmajor7	bitemyapp: refactoring is only a pain if the code wasn't manageable in the first place (bad design). and this is nomatter the languages
14:28	tbaldridge_	(inc cmajor7)
14:28	lazybot	⇒ 2
14:28	cmajor7	bitemyapp: unfortunately I don't know Haskel well (never worked with a large Haskel codebase). but I can tell you that I did with Scala and Clojure. And while Scala has all the types in the world, refactoring was a lot more painful there..
14:28	bitemyapp	types have reduced my "time to understand failure" as contrasted with Clojure
14:29	bitemyapp	I got bit really badly by Clojure's dynamic type system at Clojure Dojo and even extra pairs of eyes weren't able to figure it out.
14:29	bitemyapp	it wasn't until I dug in with some deftrace that I was able to figure out that I mis-destructured something.
14:29	bbloom	the big problem in scala is the temptation to use the type system to do work for you
14:29	bbloom	same with C++ and others
14:29	bbloom	you code up things that rely on types to do some metaprogramming or automatic insertion of values
14:29	bitemyapp	znDuff: that's the next step for me.
14:30	bbloom	and then now you have a hidden, global, cyclic dependency ball of mud
14:30	bitemyapp	core.typed is pretty expressive, I'm going to start using with Clojure code I actually give a fuck about.
14:30	cmajor7	bitemyapp: I feel, you are going to experience this less and less, as you do things in a more idiomatic way..
14:30	cmajor7	bitemyapp: (being bit badly)
14:30	bitemyapp	cmajor7: wrongo.
14:31	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I've been doing Clojure for quite awhile. I was doing my thing in a Clojure idiomatic way.
14:31	bitemyapp	I simply got bit badly.
14:31	cmajor7	bitemyapp: the thing with Clojure is not types or lack of them. it is really a different dimension of thinking..
14:31	technomancy	granted my bug was just due to a java lib that used exceptions in an annoying way; wouldn't have been an issue with ex-info
14:31	bitemyapp	cmajor7: please stop talking to me as if I haven't drunk the Clojure kool-aid too.
14:31	cmajor7	bitemyapp: ok, then maybe I am wrong, since I don't know your particular case. but this is just how I feel.
14:32	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I was structuring a multi-stage predicate application of in terms of data. It was quite nice and declarative. However, a problem that would've been rectified in 5 minutes or less in the presence of type system ended up taking multiple people and sets of eyes 2 HOURS to rectify
14:33	cmajor7	bitemyapp: what was the problem, can you give an example?
14:34	bitemyapp	cmajor7: This was the program we were refactoring, I chose to do it with a [predicate -> change-fn] pipeline. https://github.com/mjansen401/gilded-rose-clojure
14:34	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I'm not really super interested in nit-picking the specific problem, because once you know what's wrong (I already said waht it was earlier) it naturally seems "easy" or "simple"
14:34	bitemyapp	if you weren't "on the ground" when the problem was still a mystery, you aren't capable of evaluating how difficult or annoying it was.
14:34	tbaldridge_	"update-quality" what on earth is that?
14:35	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: the intrinsic value of the item drops as it decays from day to day
14:35	mdrogalis	Has anyone ever used the Janino microlanguage in app development before?
14:35	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: it's a discrete algorithm for shifting time one day at a time.
14:35	tbaldridge_	I know the problem, it's just there has to be a much better way than a 29 mess of Clojure code.
14:35	bitemyapp	cmajor7: do you do Clojure at your day job?
14:35	tbaldridge_	*29 line
14:35	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: you...do understand that that's the point right?
14:35	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: you're supposed to refactor that.
14:36	tbaldridge_	I wouldn't refactor it, I'd delete it :-P
14:36	mdrogalis	Hah.
14:36	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: it's an interview exercise, to see how you handle tackling somebody else's complexity budget and how far-sighted and clear-minded you can be about refactoring things you didn't necessarily write
14:36	bitemyapp	I actually think it's a great exercise.
14:37	shaungilchrist	"todo: write tests later"
14:37	technomancy	shaungilchrist: https://mobile.twitter.com/GonzoHacker/status/395607991367397376?p=v
14:37	cmajor7	bitemyapp: yes, I did Scala for a couple of years. I am doing Clojure for about a year and a half now (day job that is)
14:38	bitemyapp	cmajor7: if Scala is your only exposure to advanced type systems, then you are impoverished.
14:38	bitemyapp	I'd reject programming and civilization itself if Scala was my day job, let alone type systems.
14:38	bitemyapp	Go live inna-da-woods.
14:39	cmajor7	bitemyapp: I also have jobs after the "day" ends you know :)
14:39	bitemyapp	cmajor7: and you've written how much Haskell or ML?
14:39	tbaldridge_	I'm just saying, that code shouldn't have been written in the first place, so claiming a type system would have helped is a moot point. Now say the same about something like this: https://gist.github.com/davespanton/3848306 and we can start talking.
14:39	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: you've missed the point.
14:40	technomancy	heh
14:40	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: the point is that I've had nice type systems help me understand what I'm doing, wrong or right, faster.
14:41	bitemyapp	I don't care about program verification or any of the other stuff, I simply like having the sanity-assistant compiler tell me what's what.
14:41	technomancy	no code that should never have been written ever gets written in the real world, am I right?
14:41	reiddraper	technomancy: +1
14:41	tbaldridge_	sure, if the code is badly written that you can't hold it all in your head.
14:41	bitemyapp	technomancy: totes. Clojure programmers only write perfect code, in quantities no greater than 300 LOC per library.
14:42	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: "if the building is so badly designed that it needs brick instead of straw, it shouldn't be built"
14:42	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: you are rejecting leverage and knowledge. That is insane.
14:43	llasram	Oh dear. My library is getting close to 6k lines
14:43	technomancy	~guards
14:43	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
14:43	llasram	heh
14:43	cmajor7	bitemyapp: is that an interview? ML/Haskell not much, just for selfeducative purposes.. I mostly did Java/C/Python/Erlang and friends before. However I think that your "misfortune" with Clojure is not because Haskell is great and Clojure is not, but because you had a problem with software and at that day it was Clojure. If it was Pascal we would be talking about it instead.
14:43	gfredericks	reiddraper: ping
14:44	reiddraper	gfredericks: pong
14:44	TimMc	PING
14:44	technomancy	ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
14:44	gfredericks	reiddraper: curious about a use for simplecheck
14:44	TimMc	(Player 3 has joined the game.)
14:44	reiddraper	gfredericks: shoot
14:44	gfredericks	... are you guys being nerds?
14:44	TimMc	I would never.
14:45	technomancy	this sir is calumny
14:45	gfredericks	reiddraper: I'd like to be able to test a chess-rules thing by playing a random chess game; problem is I therefore need to generate moves interactively, where the available moves at any point are obviously dependent on the previous moves
14:45	bitemyapp	cmajor7: jesus christ dude, that is not what I said.
14:46	gfredericks	I can imagine a generator that generates an entire game, which just leaves my test to give a thumbs up and assert that no exception was thrown in the process
14:46	bitemyapp	cmajor7: you keep talking to me like I haven't been writing Clojure for years.
14:46	gfredericks	which seems like a weird approach
14:46	bitemyapp	cmajor7: or that I'm somehow dissatisfied with Clojure. I'm expressing that there is a utility to type systems that can help write better code, faster.
14:46	hiredman	sh/win 21
14:46	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: nah, the more correct approach is this: If your building is so complex that it can only be built by having each brick only fit against bricks of the correct types, it shouldn't be built.
14:46	bitemyapp	cmajor7: the practical result for me is that it means I'm excited about ambrose's work.
14:47	gfredericks	reiddraper: so I feel like what I want is to be able to have a (loop [position initial] ...) and be able to do a rand-nth each time through
14:47	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: use generic modular bricks (like bricks in real life) and all will be fine :-)
14:47	reiddraper	gfredericks: yeah, this is defniitely something that comes up in erlang quickcheck,
14:48	bitemyapp	reiddraper: you mean Haskell's?
14:48	bitemyapp	gfredericks: generative testing is great. Have you tried the Clojure library?
14:48	reiddraper	gfredericks: erlang quickcheck has something called 'statem', which let's you write generates that depend on previously generated values, but it's possible to do this just with 'bind'
14:48	reiddraper	bitemyapp: nope, i mean erlang quickcheck, EQC
14:48	reiddraper	bitemyapp: http://www.quviq.com/index.html
14:49	bitemyapp	haha, they charge for it? jesus.
14:49	gfredericks	bitemyapp: test.generative you mean?
14:49	bitemyapp	gfredericks: whatever. just use stuff.
14:49	cemerick	those g.d. bastards charging money for work! </troll>
14:49	reiddraper	bitemyapp: it's much more advanced than haskell quickcheck
14:49	gfredericks	reiddraper: yeah I figured some lower-level mechanism would suffice; so bind is the best approach then?
14:50	reiddraper	bitemyapp: and written by one of the same original authors of haskell quickcheck, it's _excellent_
14:50	reiddraper	gfredericks: yeah, so i think what you'd want to do is write something that allows you to take a look at the previously generated moves, and then make a decision about what is 'allowed' based on that history
14:50	cmajor7	bitemyapp: I guess to each his own. I am not saying that types are crap, or you don't know Clojure well. I just don't see where explicit types would help me in Clojure (in most cases). They do help me in Java, but that's the whole point, right..
14:51	bitemyapp	cmajor7: I didn't understand where types would help me until I got the "Zen" of Haskell and ML either.
14:51	cmajor7	bitemyapp: ok, maybe you just know something I don't.
14:52	bitemyapp	cmajor7: then once I started taking stock of where my time was going over the course of solving a particular problem, I noticed that I would "net out" on time saved and frustration generated if I had certain faculties and static assurances available to me.
14:52	bitemyapp	I can walk into a Haskell program and modify it with far less knowledge or memory of it and reasonably expect to come out the other side pretty okay.
14:52	technomancy	maybe cmajor7 knows how to avoid NPEs =)
14:52	technomancy	plz spill the beans
14:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: he must be perfect. The chosen one.
14:52	cmajor7	bitemyapp: but I am happy with developing my happy Clojure "Zen", since until now it had never let me down (which I can't say about Scala for example)
14:52	reiddraper	gfredericks: happy to try and hack out something more concrete too, this is a cool, and should be possible use-case
14:53	bitemyapp	cmajor7: you've never done (apply nil [blah lol woot]) eh?
14:53	tbaldridge_	cmajor7: yep, the best way to shut-up detractors....just build cool stuff.
14:53	bitemyapp	detractors...seriously?
14:53	bitemyapp	I use Clojure and I'm happy with it. I'm talking about the utility of type systems and why I think core.typed is a good idea.
14:54	bitemyapp	how does that make me a detractor? absurd.
14:54	technomancy	look, typed clojure has clojure in the name; therefore it's OK to be a fan of clojure and not dislike it.
14:54	gfredericks	reiddraper: btw, I hacked together an immutable PRNG lib the other day
14:54	technomancy	not sure how it could be clearer =)
14:54	gfredericks	not sure if that's something you'd consider useful
14:54	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: I meant a dynamic typing detractor
14:54	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: I'm not saying I have a problem with dynamic typing either
14:55	gfredericks	reiddraper: https://github.com/fredericksgary/four
14:55	bitemyapp	which leads me to believe you misunderstood what I was saying even worse than I thought.
14:55	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: if I had a problem with dynamic typing, I wouldn't be interested in using core.typed.
14:55	bitemyapp	I love dynamic typing and love having it in my day-to-day language.
14:55	reiddraper	gfredericks: oh really, sweet, so cemerick has a prng that is cljs/clj compatible, might be interesting to trade notes
14:55	cmajor7	bitemyapp: "(apply nil [blah lol woot])" and what would I do that for? :)
14:55	bitemyapp	cmajor7: k, I can write you off as a smug dude that writes no bugs. Got it.
14:56	bitemyapp	but for the rest of us mere mortals - take a look at core.typed.
14:56	cmajor7	bitemyapp: I just have a very good bug spray
14:56	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: you do understand that using a type system like core.typed doesn't make Clojure not dynamically typed, right?
14:56	cemerick	reiddraper, gfredericks I'm dumbly just wrapping seedrandom.js in pprng
14:56	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: but the fact that it's optional is the key part I think. That's why I don't use ML, Haskell, etc. the typing system is non-optional.
14:56	gfredericks	cemerick: wat is pprng
14:56	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: why do you think I use Clojure?
14:56	gfredericks	cemerick: so is it mutation-based then?
14:57	cmajor7	bitemyapp: and I like the idea of core.typed. but honestly mostly because it is giving Clojure a good marketing
14:57	cemerick	gfredericks: Clojure/ClojureScript-portable pprng API: https://github.com/cemerick/pprng
14:57	cemerick	in the process of lifting simple-check on top of it
14:57	tbaldridge_	bitemyapp: I really haven't a clue....almost every day you complain how it doesn't do X or Y from Haskell. :-P
14:57	bitemyapp	tbaldridge_: pardon me for knowing what's possible.
14:58	gfredericks	reiddraper: okay so his is mutable; mine's the haskell-style monadic thing
14:58	gfredericks	again, not sure if that's actually useful
14:58	gfredericks	next-long is probably a confusing name now that I think about it
14:58	reiddraper	gfredericks: it might be, not having it be the monadic style was definitely interseting in porting from haskell to clojure
14:59	gfredericks	I wrote it for the sake of being able to serialize an in-process computation
14:59	gfredericks	haven't ended up actually using it yet though :)
15:00	reiddraper	yeah, and it also allows for you to repeat something without having to create a new RNG
15:00	reiddraper	which is handy
15:01	gfredericks	right
15:01	TEttinger	are there any random number generators for clojure that alter the behavior of shuffle and rand-nth?
15:02	gfredericks	cemerick: before reading your README I imagined perhaps it stood for pseudo-pseudo-RNG
15:02	muhoo	regards types, i've noticed that a shit-ton of my functions have {:pre [(string? arg1) (every? number? [arg2 arg3]) (map? arg4)]}, and that tells me it's time to lookin to typed clojure :-/
15:02	reiddraper	gfredericks: i've also worried about using a mutable RNG if it gets shared between threads, things not being deterministic anymore
15:02	cemerick	gfredericks: add enough pseudos, and you can build ANYTHING
15:03	TEttinger	I'm pretty sure my current code uses rand-nth a bunch
15:03	hiredman	cemerick: doug lea has shown us that
15:03	TEttinger	although I suppose I could define my own...
15:03	bitemyapp	muhoo: Yep. :)
15:04	gfredericks	does anybody know any good reason for clojure not providing a rand underneath its random functions?
15:04	hiredman	I was thinking of http://cs.oswego.edu/pipermail/concurrency-interest/2013-July/011579.html and I guess the doug lea remark doesn't make sense without context
15:04	bitemyapp	muhoo: This is a good way to familiarize: http://nathanic.org/posts/2013/typed-clojure-tour/
15:05	cemerick	hiredman: even then... :-P
15:08	muhoo	and if i get very many more [{keys [foo bar baz]}] {:pre [(every? (comp not nil?) [foo bar baz])]}, i also should probably be looking at records too instead of maps :-/
15:10	muhoo	still, clojure lures me into yak shaving like no other language i've used before. not sure if that's just me or the language. but stuff just doesn't "look right" and i spend way too much time making it look right instead of just slapping shit together to make it work. not sure that's a good thing.
15:10	reiddraper	gfredericks: have you seen any of the papers that the haskell rng is based on?
15:11	bitemyapp	I write better code in Clojure than I did in previous languages, but it's hard to extricate that from simply having programmed longer. I don't find myself yak-shaving Clojure code much.
15:11	reiddraper	gfredericks: there's at least one referenced here http://hackage.haskell.org/package/random-1.0.0.1/docs/System-Random.html
15:11	bitemyapp	I generally wait for some kind of refactor-ROI trigger to happen.
15:12	reiddraper	gfredericks: particularly, take a look at the comment in 'split'
15:13	tbaldridge	muhoo: it can be that way. Clojure has deftype, reify, defprotocol, multimethods, etc. I've found myself sometimes mucking with those. In Python/C# all I had were Objects...so I didn't have much of a choice.
15:14	tbaldridge	muhoo: when there's 20 ways to do things, you can end up shaving yaks more. Unless you completely understand the problem then you may just pick the right primitive the first time.
15:17	bitemyapp	technomancy: working on a migration library for Datomic, finished writing a test, ran the test: actual: java.lang.NullPointerException: null
15:17	bitemyapp	clearly I failed to be a proper Clojure ubermenschen.
15:20	gfredericks	reiddraper: oh that's interesting; I hadn't thought too much about trivial approaches to that not being ideal
15:20	gfredericks	e.g., take the next two Ints and use those for seeds
15:22	seangrove	cemerick: Very good points on 643, was interesting reading your notes, thanks for taking the time.
15:23	cemerick	seangrove: heh, we'll see if it'll end up being worth anything :-) Definitely an area that needs some TLC, in any case.
15:23	seangrove	technomancy: Do you commit the AOT'd uberjar to the git repo when pushing to heroku? It still seems like it trigger compilation anyway.
15:24	seangrove	cemerick: Well, a lot of the problems are from my keywords/constants-table change, so definitely let me know if I can help
15:24	seangrove	I like (obviously) making the analyzer/compiler as functional and idempotent as possible
15:27	dnolen	seangrove: constants-table is a symptom rather than the disease, CLJS was never particularly thread safe and as the compiler has become more sophisticated it's jut more evident now
15:27	dnolen	s/jut/just
15:27	cemerick	seangrove: No worries, better to keep moving forward than to maybe get stuck fiddling with minutiae. I'm happy to tidy up APIs while people like you and dnolen and Bronsa and bbloom keep pushing the actual compiler bits.
15:27	seangrove	dnolen: Sure, but it's certainly a tractable problem.
15:30	cemerick	Finally grokking why things have been a bit sideways since 1847 has made me reconsider the subject of default/provided cljs versions in cljsbuild, though. It may be that there's no obviously-correct policy there.
15:32	dnolen	cemerick: I think the problem with pinning has been that we're still kinda moving at alpha speeds here - I do think we're close to something more stable. Source maps that work for everyone and a thread safe compiler would be a solid release to pin to.
15:33	seangrove	cemerick: Still confused about the default cljs in cljs-build - you already warn if I haven't explicitely stated the cljs version dep in my project.clj, right?
15:34	cemerick	dnolen: I don't want pinning, people should be able to deviate from the default.
15:35	dnolen	cemerick: sorry yes.
15:35	cemerick	But, the dependency-resolution mechanism is simply too narrow to communicate the necessary info to end users, e.g. this version of cljsbuild is known to work with cljs rXXX - rYYY.
15:35	dnolen	which reminds me, somebody should really resubmit the CLJS patch to attach the version so it's inspectable from the source/REPL :)
15:35	cemerick	I'm contemplating some kind of side-channel for that info that is occasionally checked/cached.
15:35	seangrove	dnolen: Yes, please.
15:37	cemerick	seangrove: confused that there's a default at all?
15:38	seangrove	cemerick: Nevermind, after reading your last remark about the narrow-band of potentially compatible cljs releases, it makes more sense
15:42	technomancy	seangrove: no, committing jars to the repo isn't encouraged. putting :uberjar-name in project.clj should be enough to trigger generating an uberjar at push time
15:42	technomancy	seangrove: gonna grab lunch but feel free to pm me if you have any questions and I can take a look when I get back
15:42	seangrove	technomancy: But the process is excruciatingly slow on heroku's build servers vs on our build servers - is that just usually just not an issue?
15:42	seangrove	Sure, no worries
15:43	technomancy	there are other non-git ways to deploy if you want to do your own builds
15:43	seangrove	technomancy: Ah, alright, I'll pm you when you're back then ;)
15:54	muhoo	i'm curious though, if you're using a uberjar, why use heroku? why not just run it on some java container service?
15:54	muhoo	the main advantage to me of using heroku is being able to run from git instead of having to generate uberjars and running in some apache or google container
15:58	bja	Yeah, I feel if you're going through the effort of uberjar or war generation, you'd just use a war hosting service like Elastic Beanstalk or CloudBees
16:00	xeqi	cemerick: could you point me to where austin/piggieback passes the options to the cljs compiler?
16:13	sritchie	goog.require could not find: clojure.browser.repl
16:13	sritchie	have you guys seen that before?
16:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: restart lein cljsbuild?
16:14	sritchie	yeah, I ran it again
16:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: is the DOM ready when you run that code?
16:14	bitemyapp	clojure.browser.repl needs to be run after DOM ready.
16:14	sritchie	I was including that in a scripts block down at the bottom
16:14	danlentz	is it preferred to use (defmulti xyz type) or (defmulti xyz class) ?
16:15	sritchie	bitemyapp: this is using austin
16:16	xeqi	sritchie: do you have [clojure.browser.repl] in your :require and are not using :optimizations :advanced ?
16:17	sritchie	xeqi: I DID have it in there before - let me try cleaning
16:17	sritchie	and nope, not using advanced,
16:17	sritchie	this is on a dev build with simple optimizations
16:17	sritchie	trying a clean
16:18	danlentz	or am i beimng boneheaded conflating the two (third option...)
16:19	sritchie	xeqi: bitemyapp doesn't fix it, unfortunately
16:19	sritchie	bitemyapp: even when the page is loaded,
16:19	sritchie	when I run goog.require('clojure.browser.repl') at the console
16:19	sritchie	I get an error
16:20	sritchie	BUT, I'm not referencing it in my code
16:20	sritchie	my cljs code
16:20	bitemyapp	sritchie: shut off optimizations completely?
16:20	sritchie	:optimizations :whitespace
16:20	sritchie	let me try to say :none
16:20	bitemyapp	bah, yeah that won't do anything.
16:22	dnolen	sritchie: anything except :advanced should work, cemerick would know more about piggieback, are you trying with 1847?
16:22	sritchie	[org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1934"]
16:23	sritchie	this worked yesterday, strangely
16:23	sritchie	dnolen: but I cleaned a few times
16:23	sritchie	dnolen: oh, you know what
16:24	sritchie	dnolen: I DID change something - I used to have a "repl.cljs" file that had a browser repl import,
16:24	sritchie	but then removed it, since cemerick's code was handling the repl connect call generation for me
16:27	sritchie	dnolen: boom, manually adding that require to any of my cljs files fixes the issue
16:28	cemerick	xeqi: it mostly doesn't, it reuses cljs.repl/evaluate-form https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback/blob/master/src/cemerick/piggieback.clj#L105
16:30	cemerick	sritchie: you squared away?
16:31	sritchie	cemerick: sure, but I think that might be something that austin should highlight,
16:31	sritchie	(cemerick.austin.repls/browser-connected-repl-js)
16:31	sritchie	that call won't work unless one of your cljs files has a require for the browser repl file
16:32	cemerick	sritchie: really? What error/behaviour do you get?
16:32	cemerick	oh, unless
16:32	sritchie	yeah
16:32	sritchie	the console shows that the lib doesn't exist
16:32	cemerick	right
16:33	cemerick	sritchie: maybe you could add a parenthetical list item to the README @ https://github.com/cemerick/austin/tree/master/browser-connected-repl-sample ?
16:33	cemerick	pointing to the .cljs file therein that has the require, etc
16:33	sritchie	sure
16:34	cemerick	or open an issue suggesting the addition, so I don't forget :-)
16:36	sritchie	cemerick: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/pull/24/files
16:36	cemerick	awesome, thanks :-)
16:39	apricots	in leiningen profiles.clj is there some way to build configuration programatically? e.g. I'm trying to specify a path based on $HOME (str (System/getProperties "user.home") "/datomic-free")
16:40	sritchie	cemerick: btw
16:40	sritchie	if I reload a page that austin's connected to
16:40	sritchie	https://gist.github.com/sritchie/66845142f8fc9afceece
16:41	cemerick	hrmph
16:41	cemerick	sritchie: if you send an expression to eval anyway, does iti sort itself out
16:41	cemerick	?
16:41	sritchie	it hangs, even with multiple reloads,
16:41	sritchie	until I manually enter the "connect" call at the console
16:42	sritchie	I wonder if I'm just putting the repl call too early or something
16:42	cemerick	hrm, this happened to someone else before....
16:42	cemerick	sritchie: make sure the austin-generated js is the last thing in the page, after your app's js?
16:42	sritchie	it's in the body, and the only thing after it is some google analytics
16:42	sritchie	code
16:43	cemerick	hrm
16:45	cemerick	sritchie: he was having a similar problem, thus the suggestion https://github.com/cemerick/austin/pull/21
16:45	cemerick	sritchie: if the REPL is hanging, then there's something keeping the browser-repl ns from being required/loaded or the connect call from being executed
16:46	sritchie	yeah, it's not that particular issue
16:46	sritchie	but I had figured that one out on my own yesterday
16:46	sritchie	I'll see if I can move that call around
16:46	sritchie	and get some more info
16:47	cemerick	sritchie: or just put a breakpoint on the connect call and make sure it's being hit
16:47	sritchie	oh, good call
17:02	yeoj___	i have an old piece of code looking at clojure.contrib.except for :only throwf... where did that go?
17:07	llasram	yeoj___: Probably didn't make it. What's it do? Name suggests just a function wrapping `throw`
17:08	technomancy	yeoj___: ex-info is a general replacement for clojure.contrib.except, but throwf has no contemporary analog
17:08	technomancy	seangrove: what's up
17:08	gfredericks	what did throwf do?
17:09	yeoj___	looks like it does string formatting, but i'm not sure where the string goes (to logging?)
17:09	seangrov`	technomancy: The current blog post on how to deploy to heroku didn't mention anything much about AOT, or non-git-deploy methods, etc. Very curious about how you're doing it internally.
17:09	technomancy	throw+format on the Exception message
17:09	llasram	Ah
17:09	yeoj___	i found it here: https://github.com/michakurt/clojure-etl/blob/master/etl.clj I guess i can find another way.
17:09	technomancy	seangrov`: AOT should just always happen. non-git deploys are more experimental.
17:10	gfredericks	throwf is fun to pronounce
17:11	llasram	gfredericks: You must pronounce it differently than I do :-)
17:13	gfredericks	llasram: in one syllable
17:15	hiredman	win 19
17:23	xeqi	cemerick: ah, no obvious way to plug in a source-map there :/
17:30	hiredman	gfredericks: win 19 is a private club of which I am a member
17:30	mikerod	I'm am making a Java interop call of the form (doto <some ArrayList> (.remove (dec <some-num>)))
17:31	mikerod	After some investigation, the .remove is returning False
17:31	mikerod	this would indicate that it is calling the ArrayList#remove(Object) method, instead of ArrayList#remove(int)
17:31	sritchie	cemerick: final error that I'd been seeing
17:31	sritchie	if I cycle the repl a couple of times
17:31	sritchie	I get this
17:31	sritchie	CompilerException java.lang.StackOverflowError, compiling:(form-init8604265301067731997.clj:3:13)
17:32	mikerod	So I tried to change it to `(doto <some ArrayList> (.remove (int (dec <some-num>))))` in hopes of making sure it is being passed the primitive int, to match the correct signature
17:33	mikerod	yet, it still seems to be calling the ArrayList#remove(Object) method instead. Is there a different way to get a primitive int from a Clojure numeric value, which I know are the "boxed" Long type.
17:33	hiredman	mikerod: the clojure reflection stuff is always picking the most general method, because it doesn't no the reciever type of .remove
17:33	hiredman	so you need to type hint <some ArrayList>
17:33	gfredericks	hiredman: does (int ...) imply an ^int typehint?
17:34	hiredman	gfredericks: sure, but the reflector doesn't care
17:34	hiredman	"oh, look, a remove that takes Object, use that"
17:34	mikerod	hiredman: the hint fixed it.. (doto ^java.util.List <some ArrayList> (.remove (dec <some-num>))) worked, I didn't even use the `int` call
17:34	hiredman	yep
17:35	hiredman	dec is typed hinted to return a number
17:35	technomancy	seangrov`: what magnitude of differences are you seeing with your builds?
17:37	mikerod	Thanks, that one had me confused. I guess I haven't had much of a good look at the Clojure reflection code around choosing the method.
17:37	pepijndevos	Where should I look if I wanted to implement a toy datalog?
17:37	pepijndevos	(an plan for world domination afterwards)
17:38	justin_smith	pepijndevos: bacwn?
17:38	justin_smith	https://github.com/tailrecursion/bacwn
17:38	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: Pedestal UI has a 200 line implementation of datalog. let me dig it up....
17:38	hiredman	mikerod: it is very easy to forget about hinting the reciever of a method call
17:39	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: correction, it's only 120 lines: https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/app/src/io/pedestal/app/query.clj
17:39	pepijndevos	tbaldridge, whoo
17:39	pepijndevos	also, justin_smith whoo
17:39	hiredman	damn, mine is 197
17:39	pepijndevos	I need to figure out what this pedestal thing is anyway...
17:39	tyler__	I have approx 100 futures that im mapping over, it appears that its going about 30 futures at a time before it grabs the next set. I thought future uses an unbounded thread pool. anyone have any ideas?
17:40	tyler__	s/100/1000/
17:40	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: from the author's own admission it's not fast, but it works, and it runs on CLJS which was the original goal.
17:40	hiredman	~map
17:40	clojurebot	map is lazy
17:40	hiredman	~map
17:40	clojurebot	map is an evil genius.
17:40	tbaldridge	~chunked-seq
17:40	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:41	hiredman	tyler__: map is sequential, the only reason you see an parallelism of your futures at all is this other thing called chunking
17:41	danlentz	clojurebot: danlentz is an evil dunce
17:41	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:41	hiredman	any
17:41	hiredman	tyler__: most likely you are producing the futures lazily and then derefing them lazyingly, so you need to not product them lazily
17:42	justin_smith	if you need the return vals, mapv is not lazy, or doall can force it, if you don't need the return there is doseq
17:42	danlentz	lazybot: what is your relationship to clojurebot?
17:42	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
17:42	hiredman	(map deref (for [i (range 10)] (future (+ i i)))) ;; bad
17:42	hiredman	(map deref (doall (for [i (range 10)] (future (+ i i))))) ;; better
17:43	tbaldridge	reducers....better
17:43	danlentz	uncanny, sometimes
17:43	tyler__	hiredman: the code: (map #(future (oy/request-remote %)) remote-params) (map deref ref-result)
17:43	tbaldridge	well I guess unless you want 1000 threads...
17:43	hiredman	tyler__: see my examples
17:43	tyler__	hiredman: thanks
17:44	technomancy	1000 threads is peanuts
17:44	justin_smith	hiredman: with the (map deref (doall ...)) shouldn't the doall be outside thte map?
17:45	hiredman	justin_smith: it should be where it is
17:46	tyler__	hiredman: is there a diff between using doseq vs doall and for?
17:47	hiredman	read the docs
17:47	cemerick	sritchie: Well, the filename is coming from cider/nrepl.el IIRC
17:47	tyler__	rgr
17:47	bitemyapp	sritchie: are tagged unions/case classes regarded as a code smell in Scala?
17:47	cemerick	not sure how to relate it back to austin/piggieback tho, without part of the stack
17:48	sritchie	yeah, makes sense
17:48	sritchie	bitemyapp: I don't think so
17:48	sritchie	I use them, anyway, mostly as a more explicit exception handling mechanism
17:49	sritchie	Either, for example, right?
17:49	brehaut	tyler__: the docs are two private msgs with clojurebot or lazybot away
17:49	pepijndevos	tbaldridge, how do i even use it? Reading code is hard. Especially tricky code without knowing what it does.
17:49	bitemyapp	sritchie: It's also not clear to me what distinction, if any, is made between Either being a type union vs. a monad one binds values out of
17:50	brehaut	bitemyapp: the monad is just an interface that the union implements
17:50	sritchie	yeah, the only distinction is that scala has no monad tait
17:50	sritchie	trait*
17:50	bitemyapp	brehaut: that makes sense. So in order to access the contents of the union, you bind?
17:51	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: it's pretty much a rip-off of Datomic's datalog, so: https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/app/test/clj/io/pedestal/test/app.clj#L1168
17:51	brehaut	bitemyapp: thats one way yes
17:51	tyler__	hiredman: only asking because ostensibly there is no real difference i was wondering if you picekd one way for a specific reason that wasn't apparent to me
17:51	pepijndevos	tbaldridge, is the Datomic one equally short?
17:51	tyler__	picked*
17:52	TEttinger	tyler__, there's a lot of difference
17:52	hiredman	tyler__: there is a very real difference, have you looked at the doc strings?
17:52	brehaut	bitemyapp: theres probably also map (functor) and applicative operations for different access to it too
17:52	llasram	tyler__: If you mean `dorun`, there isn't much effective difference
17:52	llasram	tyler__: `doall` though, big diff
17:52	TEttinger	for and doseq at least are very different
17:52	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: I don't know (I haven't seen the source), but I guess not. Datomic Datalog is backed by indexes and it also caches queries. This shorter example is very brute force.
17:52	pepijndevos	I see.
17:52	TEttinger	err maybe I am exaggerating
17:53	TEttinger	one returns the seq, one doesn't, so totally different uses
17:53	bitemyapp	brehaut: I would hope so, yes.
17:53	pepijndevos	Yea, i read datomic uses like 3 indices.
17:53	bitemyapp	pepijndevos: eavt vaet avet and I might be missing one.
17:54	bitemyapp	pepijndevos: oh and aevt.
17:54	hiredman	https://github.com/sonian/Greenmail/blob/master/src/clj/greenmail/db.clj is a nice little "datalog" that uses core.logic for the actually search, but actually indexes facts(similar to datomic datoms) in memory
17:55	bitemyapp	pepijndevos: would you like an article on how to harness datomic's indexes directly?
17:55	pepijndevos	bitemyapp, sure.
17:55	tyler__	hiredman: k thnx
17:55	bitemyapp	pepijndevos: http://www.dotkam.com/2013/05/31/datomic-can-simple-be-also-fast/
18:15	mlb-	what are the uniqueness guarantees on gensym?
18:15	llasram	mlb-: You can generate collisions if you try, but probably not if you don't set out to do so
18:19	mlb-	llasram: is it thread-safe?
18:19	llasram	tldr yes, but I encourage you to read the implementation :-)
18:20	hiredman	mlb-: if you have to ask those questions, the answer is (java.util.UUID/randomUUID)
18:20	mlb-	I'd love to! Where might I find a javadoc for clojure.lang.RT?
18:20	hiredman	gensym is just useful enough for generating code, you shouldn't use it for anything else
18:24	bitemyapp	mlb-: a java doc for clojure.lang.RT? Are you serious?
18:27	llasram	mlb-: No javadoc, but here's the source: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java
18:28	mlb-	bitemyapp: Entirely serious. Why shouldn't I be?
18:32	mlb-	llasram: cool, found enough information to satisfy my curiosity
18:32	mlb-	sad there's no javadoc, though
18:57	bitemyapp	so I just wrote "drop-keys", how did I do? --- (select-keys m (reduce disj (set (keys (target-s))) dropped-keys))
18:57	bitemyapp	properly: (select-keys m (reduce disj (set (keys m)) dropped-keys)))
19:00	bitemyapp	I'm sure in J it would just be ->!{} ^^ [::]
19:03	brehaut	,(#([[%&]] (+)) 1 2 3)
19:03	clojurebot	[(1 2 3)]
19:05	hyPiRion	drop-keys is easier than that
19:05	hyPiRion	(apply dissoc m dropped-keys)
19:07	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: commented my version out and appended ;; for humility. to it.
19:07	hyPiRion	haha
19:08	hyPiRion	it's easy to get lost in the Clojure world
19:11	akurilin	Why is it that when I return a file outside of a JAR from a ring app, it's a File object, and when it's in a JAR, it's a BufferedInputStream object.
19:12	brehaut	akurilin: at a guess because when it comes from a jar its pulled out of a zip file on demand
19:13	brehaut	and its not a full 'file'
19:13	bitemyapp	akurilin: why go to the trouble of faking a filesystem inside a jar?
19:14	akurilin	brehaut, is that how jar content is usually deal with? It's kept zipped in of the filesystem and then pulled into memory on demand, or are all the contents of a jar automatically cached in memory at java -jar time?
19:15	brehaut	akurilin: i would presume its implementation specific
19:15	bja	can lein load clojure source via stdin?
19:16	bja	nvm
19:16	akurilin	brehaut, got it.
19:16	akurilin	bitemyapp, no reason. Just trying to debug a few quirks I get with MIME types when running the app from a .jar
19:16	akurilin	led to a fun 3am debugging session.
19:18	bitemyapp	akurilin: if you want fun, let me talk to you about doing migrations with Datomic.
19:20	akurilin	bitemyapp, I think it'd go over my head at this point :)
19:20	akurilin	Argh Compojure docs. List the middleware backwards with respect to how they're listed in code in the threading macro
19:33	talios	anyone here using Jay Fields expectations testing library at all?
19:35	brehaut	morning talios
19:35	TimMc	bja: Not that I'm aware of, but clojure.main accepts an -e containing code to execute.
19:35	talios	'lo brehaut
19:46	bja	if I build a standalone uberjar, will running the jar with java -jar intercept the stdin before my jar gets to it
19:47	bja	so doing something like: echo "msg" \| java -jar foo-standalone.jar
19:48	hyPiRion	not afaik
19:49	bitemyapp	ahhhhh fuck I need Fluokitten.
19:50	llasram	wow
19:52	llasram	bitemyapp: May I ask what for?
19:54	bitemyapp	llasram: roughly - (group-by :db/id (Either Datomic.List Datomic.Map))
19:54	bitemyapp	a group-by functor for a Datomic transaction category.
19:54	llasram	hmm
19:54	bitemyapp	so that I don't have to (cond (vector? ...) (map? ...))
19:55	bitemyapp	because that is fucking bullshit.
19:55	llasram	Not just a multimethod or protocol?
19:55	bitemyapp	it doesn't merit reification in that manner.
19:55	llasram	I see
19:55	bitemyapp	it's also not that simple
19:56	bitemyapp	the List forms have less data "apiece" than the Map forms.
19:56	bitemyapp	you can't implement an isomorphic interface to both
19:56	bitemyapp	you'd have to reduce the List forms into the Map forms to get a complete picture, but the Map forms are less expressive.
19:57	llasram	I don't know enough datomic to fully grok. Curious to learn how your fluokitten-ing goes though :-)
19:58	bitemyapp	llasram: I'm holding off on the Fluokitten, I'm suffering the schlep for now.
19:58	bitemyapp	but the ROI is encroaching...
19:58	bitemyapp	writing this migration toolkit for Datomic is probably the most pissed off I've been in months.
19:59	bja	any idea why https://gist.github.com/emidln/7241957 would let me say "lein run < project.clj" but building an uberjar and then saying "java -jar target/edn2json-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT.jar < project.clj" has no output?
19:59	bitemyapp	bja: is that the standalone jar?
19:59	bja	err
19:59	bja	yeah, meant to be the standalone jar
19:59	bja	mistyped the question
20:01	bja	java -jar target/edn2json-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar < project.clj
20:07	bitemyapp	llasram: I thought I was the only one that liked Fluokitten.
20:08	hoangelos	I have some clojure code that calls clojure.java.shell/sh. The (third-party) script being called included a password. I'm trying to make sure the output for that isn't logged.
20:09	hoangelos	when there's an error it seems to log the output and the input including the full script command line args.
20:38	yeoj___	i'm trying to simply write a large pipe delimited file.... but i'm getting "streamclosed". Can someone take a look at this: (ns metadata.db.table-dump
20:38	yeoj___	[:use
20:38	yeoj___	[clojure.pprint]
20:38	yeoj___	[metadata.db.connections]
20:38	yeoj___	[metadata.db.metadata]
20:38	yeoj___	[clojure.string :only (join)]
20:38	yeoj___	;[clojure.core.incubator :only [throwf]]
20:38	yeoj___	]
20:38	yeoj___	[:require
20:38	yeoj___	[taoensso.timbre :as timbre :refer (trace debug info warn error fatal spy with-log-level)]
20:38	yeoj___	[clojure.java.io :as io ]
20:38	yeoj___	[clojure.java.jdbc :as j ]
20:38	yeoj___	[clojure.java.jdbc.sql :as sql]
20:38	yeoj___	]
20:38	yeoj___	)
20:38	yeoj___	(timbre/set-config! [:appenders :spit :enabled?] true)
20:38	yeoj___	(timbre/set-config! [:shared-appender-config :spit-filename] "log.log")
20:38	hyPiRion	yeoj___: would be lovely if you put this on a pastebin instead
20:38	yeoj___	(def sql "select * from comcast_lineup ")
20:38	yeoj___	(let [
20:38	yeoj___	joiner (fn [v] (join "\|" v ))
20:38	yeoj___	;results (rest (j/query local-postgres [sql ] :as-arrays? true :row-fn joiner ))
20:38	yeoj___	results (rest (j/query local-postgres [sql ] :as-arrays? true :row-fn joiner ))
20:39	yeoj___	]
20:39	yeoj___	(with-open [wrtr (io/writer "test.txt")]
20:39	yeoj___	(map #(.write wrtr %) results )
20:39	yeoj___	) )
20:39	yeoj___	opps.
20:39	yeoj___	sorry
20:39	yeoj___	i mean't this: https://www.refheap.com/20306
20:39	yeoj___	hyPiRion: i'm sorry. goofed on a copy paste.
20:40	hyPiRion	yeah, no worries. It's just easier to read/test on a pastebin, and has the additional bonus of not spamming the channel =)
20:40	yeoj___	hyPiRion: i understand. i'll be more careful.
20:48	amalloy	~map
20:48	clojurebot	map is lazy
20:50	hyPiRion	yeah, yeoj___, the problem is that map is lazy. You attempt to write on a closed resource. Try to use mapv, or wrap the map call in a dorun
20:52	yeoj___	ok, I'm trying to dump massive resultsets... I'm hoping results stays lazy (as it writes) but the doall only effects the vertor for each row
20:53	yeoj___	also it seems like it returns nil for each row that i .write. but i have the output accurate at this point.
20:58	logic_prog	how does sessions work in https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/wiki/Sessions -- can I assume that I can (1) store in a session the user name of an authenticated user and (2) there is no way the suer can change it (since the cookie is encrypted)
21:00	Apage43	logic_prog: correct, the cookie store should be tamper-proof https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/session/cookie.clj
21:01	Apage43	what you do have to worry about is the fact that a user could save their cookie and reset it to an old state later
21:01	Apage43	so if you want to expire it, you'll need to stick a timestamp in it
21:01	logic_prog	thinking
21:01	logic_prog	let me skim the cookie.clj file first then raise objections :-)
21:03	logic_prog	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/session/cookie.clj#L92 <-- isn't this dangerous
21:03	logic_prog	i.e. if someone broke AES, they could cause an read-string
21:03	logic_prog	and then use read-macors to do a remote execution
21:03	Apage43	"if someone broke AES"
21:03	logic_prog	yes
21:03	Apage43	actually more of a concern is whether someone can break the HMAC
21:04	Apage43	they don't need to break AES to tamper the cookie, just the HMAC
21:04	Apage43	but yes
21:04	Apage43	if you don't trust the HMAC you can't trust cookie store
21:04	Apage43	you can probably trust it though
21:04	logic_prog	shouldn't there be a (binding [read-eval false]) ?
21:04	Apage43	logic_prog: no. I mean, the data inside the cookie necessarily came from the server
21:04	Apage43	it's not user data
21:05	logic_prog	not if someone could forge a MAC
21:05	Apage43	assume that that is hard
21:06	Apage43	hn
21:06	Apage43	*hm
21:06	Apage43	actually it's using the same key for AES and HMAC
21:06	Apage43	which you shouldn't do
21:06	logic_prog	someone should file an issue ticket
21:06	logic_prog	Apage43: I've done my part (pointing out the lfaw). I leave the rest to you. :-)
21:06	Apage43	but... probably won't be what kills you
21:08	logic_prog	this seems rather bad
21:08	logic_prog	because suppose there's some other vulnerability that lets the client guess the AES key
21:08	logic_prog	now they can do arbitrary code execution
21:10	Apage43	logic_prog: ..
21:11	Apage43	really I think if your crypto is busted
21:11	Apage43	you probably have worse problems
21:11	logic_prog	that's like saying: "if you have cancer, don't worry about the scraped knee"
21:11	Apage43	yes
21:11	Apage43	it is exactly like saying that
21:12	Apage43	you can probably ignore a scraped knee if you have cancer
21:12	Raynes	Not really
21:12	logic_prog	well, actually it's different
21:12	logic_prog	it's more like "here is a scraped knee; which, if you have cancer, will suddenly drain your bank account"
21:12	Raynes	Apage43: That scraped knee could become infected and do away with you much quicker than the cancer.
21:12	logic_prog	it goes from "broken crypt" to "full ownage"
21:12	Raynes	Even if you've got an expiration date, if it's more than two weeks you should probably go ahead and put some peroxide on that.
21:13	Raynes	Just saying.
21:13	bitemyapp	ah how's that for cool? I think my migration stuff is working now.
21:13	logic_prog	more accurate is "this is a like a weird gene, where should you one day get cancer, it'll cause you to sponteanously to go into flames"
21:13	Apage43	i mean
21:13	Apage43	the whole point of having crypto here
21:13	Apage43	is that you are relying on it for the correctness of your system
21:13	Apage43	if this crypto is broken
21:14	Apage43	even if it doesn't give you code execution there
21:14	bitemyapp	logic_prog: there's defense in depth, and then there's realizing there's a line across which you cannot defend your program or your data, period.
21:14	Apage43	the system is probably severely compromised
21:14	bitemyapp	logic_prog: if magical gnomes with the ability to read hard disks are inside my colo, I'm fucked regardless. I don't give a damn if they get "root"
21:14	bitemyapp	logic_prog: concordantly, if they break AES...then FUCK it.
21:15	Apage43	Most folks are going to store "logged in as <user>" in this. if you can just change that to "logged in as admin" (you broke AES).. well you have enough of a foothold you can probably get into the rest of the system
21:15	bitemyapp	Apage43: generally what one does is store a UUID4
21:15	logic_prog	logged in as admin != root shell
21:15	bitemyapp	Apage43: this points to an unguessable db-backed session
21:16	bitemyapp	Apage43: this prevents cracking of cookie crypto translating into arbitrary user access
21:16	Apage43	the whole point of using the cookie store is that you don't have a better session store =P
21:16	Apage43	if you have a db just send a session id and don't use the cookie store
21:16	bitemyapp	Apage43: I know, I'm just proffering alternatives.
21:16	Raynes	If they break AES then chances are they've earned their prize.
21:16	bitemyapp	but yeah, if you are stuck with non-db-backed sessions, then the hell with it.
21:16	logic_prog	are you implying that if someone broke AES, instead of hacking my lol-cats site to change their karama, they would hack banks?
21:16	bitemyapp	crypto is everything with cookie-stores. doesn't fuckin' matter if they crack it.
21:17	Apage43	logic_prog: well hopefully your app isn't running as root =P
21:17	bitemyapp	logic_prog: there are two kinds of pedants in this world.
21:17	TimMc	No, there are at least 12.
21:17	bitemyapp	logic_prog: Ones that actually know what they're talking about (amalloy) and then there's those that don't.
21:17	Raynes	There is TimMc, TimMc, TimMc, TimMc, and so on up to 12.
21:18	bitemyapp	logic_prog: you can make yourself less obviously a member of the latter group by dropping the bullshit whine-fest and wasting somebody else's time.
21:18	Raynes	lol
21:18	TimMc	OK, I need a filk, stat: "When [...], that's-a monad"
21:18	bitemyapp	If I got a PR on Github like this I would drop-kick it to Mars and then nuke Mars.
21:18	logic_prog	what's PR?
21:19	Raynes	Pull request.
21:19	Raynes	What's a github, bitemyapp?
21:19	Raynes	o.o
21:20	bitemyapp	Raynes: I just snorted diet coke you little shit
21:20	bitemyapp	now my nose burns
21:20	logic_prog	actually
21:20	logic_prog	I can just wrap CookieStore
21:20	bitemyapp	logic_prog: nobody cares
21:21	llasram	bitemyapp: Let's keep this a friendly community, yes?
21:21	Raynes	No.
21:21	bitemyapp	llasram: fine fine. There's been a stream of people like this lately and it's exasperating.
21:21	bitemyapp	Whenever you write any libraries/software that involves web apps, suddenly everybody becomes a fucking expert.
21:22	bitemyapp	then you get people like Captain Peanut Gallery ^^ up there.
21:22	TimMc	More to the point, no one is going to break AES -- but they may break your poor usage of it.
21:22	Apage43	yep
21:22	Apage43	but the construction in ring's cookie store is pretty much right
21:22	llasram	bitemyapp: I agree that the particular topic is probably not going to generate useful discussion, but I think tone is important
21:22	Apage43	you can feel comfortable using it
21:22	TimMc	E.g., some people think "Oh I'll ust encrypt it to myself, everything will be fine"
21:23	bitemyapp	llasram: this is really just another reason to use Fluokitten.
21:23	Raynes	bitemyapp: We need more data pipelining practices.
21:23	llasram	A dismissive atmosphere makes it easier to accidentally dismiss genuine issues
21:23	llasram	haha
21:23	Raynes	Stat!
21:23	TimMc	and then some clever Ukrainian flips a few bits blindly and gets a valid result
21:23	bitemyapp	llasram: if I use Fluokitten, muggles get scared away and don't make silly comments.
21:23	bitemyapp	Raynes: decomplected data pipelining practices.
21:32	TimMc	"When a type con-structor has a bind and return... that's-a monad..."
21:32	TimMc	I'm done, good night.
21:32	TimMc	I expect to see something better by morning.
21:57	logic_prog	is there a way to tell cljure.tools.namespace.repl/refresh that nameslace Blah.clj no longer needs to be loaded?
22:11	l4u	should I use tools.namespace or pomegranate for code reload in REPL?
22:15	jcromartie	why is javagit development using SVN
22:17	seangrove	jcromartie: Because cvs is horrible, duh.
22:19	jcromartie	git log --pretty=format is my new best friend
22:21	devn	hello all
22:22	jcromartie	hi
22:45	gvickers	Is anyone familiar with Quil, the processing library for clojure? In my draw function I am trying to draw a ellipse for all the elements of a vector using (for [x vec] (let [bla bla] (ellipse bla bla bla bla))). Is there something I dont understand about processing, can the draw function only handle 1 new shape at a time? I am getting a nullPointerException on the draw function.
22:50	amalloy	gvickers: i'm not, but a quick look at the quil readme makes me think that draw is side-effectful, and so putting that in a for (as opposed to a doseq) is doomed to fail
23:15	uvtc	Is there a function to write to stderr, or should I write `(binding [out err] (println "..."))`?
23:20	`cbp	uvtc: I guess you could use (.println err "foo") but there's no clojure function that i know of
23:21	uvtc	`cbp, thanks. I was just poking around in the clojure source, and it appears to me so far that `binding` `out` is the way it's typically done.
23:25	uvtc	Ah. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/pprint/utilities.clj#L95 (using `binding` as above)
23:30	teslanick	I'm a clojure newbie, and I'm having a hard time parsing the `for` form.
23:30	teslanick	(take 10 (for [n (whole-numbers) :when (even? n)] n))
23:30	teslanick	(From Programming Clojure 1st edition)
23:31	teslanick	I'm not sure I understand how to map `for` into something I'm more familiar with.
23:31	uvtc	`for` is a way to generate sequences.
23:32	brehaut	teslanick: what languages are you familiar with (impossible for anyone to make an analogy without that info)
23:32	uvtc	Like Python's square bracket thingy: `[i for i in range(5) if i % 2 == 0]`
23:32	`cbp	list comprehension
23:32	uvtc	Right. That's it. :)
23:32	teslanick	I'm most familiar with javascript, but I know java-esque languages as well.
23:32	brehaut	uvtc: like generator comprehensions, not list comprehensions
23:32	brehaut	round parens
23:33	brehaut	teslanick: how well do you know jquery's map function?
23:33	teslanick	Yes.
23:33	teslanick	All of it. :)
23:34	uvtc	teslanick, you use `map` and `filter` when you've already got a sequence. You can make new sequences with functions like `range` and `iterate`, or you can custom-make them with `for`.
23:34	teslanick	I'm actually really familiar with JS's map and reduce functions
23:34	brehaut	teslanick: $.map([1,2,3], function (a) { return [a,a,a]; });
23:34	brehaut	/=> [1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3]
23:35	brehaut	s/^\//\/\//
23:35	brehaut	jquery's map is broken, but its useful for analogy
23:35	teslanick	What would that map into in Clojure?
23:36	brehaut	directly: mapcat
23:36	brehaut	,(mapcat (fn [a] [a a a]) [1 2 3])
23:36	clojurebot	(1 1 1 2 2 ...)
23:36	teslanick	I get mapcat, map, reduce, etc. I
23:36	brehaut	but mapcat and for are isomorphic; for is simply a syntax for mapcat
23:36	teslanick	I'm just having trouble parsing the example code for :when and :while with `for`
23:36	coventry	teslanick: Programming Clojure probably isn't the best book to be learning from these days.
23:37	teslanick	It's the book I have. ;)
23:37	teslanick	But what would you recommend?
23:37	brehaut	,(for [a [1 2 3] generated [a a a]] a)
23:37	clojurebot	(1 1 1 2 2 ...)
23:37	coventry	Clojure Programming is more recent.
23:37	brehaut	:when adds a filter
23:37	`cbp	arent they both 1.3?
23:38	normal	How do I use the jar from "lein jar"? Or how do I make it find the project dependencies?
23:38	coventry	teslanick: ##(for [n (take 10 (range))] (* n n))
23:38	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81)
23:38	uvtc	teslanick, Oh. `:when` is for when you want to keep going through the rest of the `for`; `:while` is when you want to stop once your predicate says you're done. Have you had a look at http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for ?
23:38	brehaut	so the mapcat version ##(filter odd (mapcat (fn [a] [a a a]) [1 2 3]))
23:38	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: odd in this context
23:38	coventry	teslanick: ##(for [n (take 10 (range)) :when even?] (* n n))
23:38	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81)
23:38	brehaut	,(filter odd? (mapcat (fn [a] [a a a]) [1 2 3]))
23:38	clojurebot	(1 1 1 3 3 ...)
23:39	coventry	teslanick: oops ##(for [n (take 10 (range)) :when (even? n)] (* n n))
23:39	lazybot	⇒ (0 4 16 36 64)
23:39	coventry	teslanick: oops ##(for [n (take 10 (range)) m [\a \b \c] :when (even? n)] [(* n n) m])
23:39	lazybot	⇒ ([0 \a] [0 \b] [0 \c] [4 \a] [4 \b] [4 \c] [16 \a] [16 \b] [16 \c] [36 \a] [36 \b] [36 \c] [64 \a] [64 \b] [64 \c])
23:40	brehaut	,(for [i (range) :while (< i 3)] i)
23:40	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
23:40	brehaut	exactly what it says on the tin
23:40	brehaut	,(for [i (range) :when (odd? i) :while (< i 6)] i)
23:40	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
23:40	brehaut	,(range)
23:40	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
23:41	amalloy	brehaut: yes, although people are often surprised by ##(take 20 (for [x (range) y (range) :while (< y 5)] [x y])
23:41	amalloy	&(take 20 (for [x (range) y (range) :while (< y 5)] [x y]))
23:41	lazybot	⇒ ([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [0 3] [0 4] [1 0] [1 1] [1 2] [1 3] [1 4] [2 0] [2 1] [2 2] [2 3] [2 4] [3 0] [3 1] [3 2] [3 3] [3 4])
23:42	amalloy	:while isn't exactly "what it says on the tin", simply because it's hard to realize what is the expected behavior of :while
23:42	uvtc	brehaut, Oh. Didn't know clojurebot could handle an ∞ seq. (`,(range)`)
23:42	brehaut	uvtc: its just a flag for the printer
23:43	teslanick	Can I enable that flag in the repl? I've bumped into that a few times :)
23:43	brehaut	uvtc: http://blog.n01se.net/blog-n01se-net-p-85.html
23:43	brehaut	a chouser classic
23:43	uvtc	brehaut, Sorry, don't know what you mean. What magic is clojurebot doing?
23:44	brehaut	uvtc: its doing exactly zero magic. simply setting the print-length variable does that automatically
23:44	uvtc	Heh. That's a pretty exact amount of magic. :) Thanks, and also thanks for the link.
23:44	teslanick	brehaut: aww yiss.
23:47	TimMc	,`[~@(range)]
23:47	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
23:47	brehaut	TimMc: now do it without the alpha characters
23:48	TimMc	hehehe
23:48	amalloy	gfredericks: the way it handles multiple args is insane
23:48	TimMc	Blow the heap, you mean?
23:48	gfredericks	amalloy: I remember this from back in the day; apparently I almost never use some-fn in this way
23:48	brehaut	TimMc:
23:48	brehaut	TimMc: yeah
23:48	gfredericks	but I can't for the life of me imagine using it the way it was written to be used
23:48	TimMc	Mmm, I don't think I can generate infinite seqs.
23:49	amalloy	gfredericks: right, because the way it was written to be used is easy to emulate with existing functions
23:49	dav	is there a way to tell clojure what to do if destructuring fails to match the mattern?
23:49	dav	pattern
23:49	TimMc	I could race the stack against the heap and try to allocate too much heap before I use too much stack...
23:49	gfredericks	amalloy: what on earth is going on with your for example above?
23:49	dav	((fn ([[x y]] (+ x y))) [4]) -> NullPointerException
23:50	gfredericks	I can't imagine how :while would be implemented to get that behavior
23:50	teslanick	Thanks for all your help. I'm still making my way out of Plato's proverbial cave over here.
23:50	amalloy	gfredericks: :while only terminates the innermost loop variable
23:50	amalloy	goes back up a level and starts with the next seq item
23:51	gfredericks	amalloy: that's what I thought; so why is your result finite?
23:51	amalloy	gfredericks: (take 20)
23:51	gfredericks	oooh
23:51	gfredericks	PHEW
23:52	gfredericks	man for a second there for was pretty dang weird
23:53	amalloy	(for [x xs y ys :while (f x y)] [x y]) => (mapcat (fn [x] (mapcat (fn [y] [x y]) (take-while (fn [y] (f x y)) ys))) xs), more or less, i think
23:57	TimMc	dav: You can use :or to put in default values.