#clojure – 2013-10-29

2013-10-29

00:18	kendallbuchanan	Anyone know why "(let [my-atom (atom {})] (-> :my-atom name symbol deref))" doesn't work?
00:18	kendallbuchanan	Basically, I'm trying to deref an atom by converting a keyword into a symbol representing the atom.
00:20	rhg135	deref doesnt take a symbol
00:20	rhg135	i think it takes an object implementing IDeref
00:21	kendallbuchanan	Ah, okay.
00:21	rhg135	might need to resolve the symbol
00:21	kendallbuchanan	Makes sense.
00:22	kendallbuchanan	Thank you!
00:22	rhg135	np
00:24	right1	does anyone have spare time to waste? im working on some project euler problems for fun but i have a pretty terrible solution
00:25	right1	oh good! i got a solution in 2 min runtime
00:42	bitemyapp	`cbp: yeah, (run query connection)
00:42	`cbp	roger
00:42	bitemyapp	`cbp: that returns a promise which you deref.
00:43	`cbp	yea :)
00:45	bitemyapp	`cbp: incidentally, the promise-based async API is as much a convenience as anything.
00:46	bitemyapp	`cbp: when the underlying semantics are asynchronous (core.async or agents) it's easier to just use a promise to synch up the results. If the API defaulted to blocking I'd just be deref'ing the promise for the user (why?) or doing something worse and more complicated to make it "blocking"
00:48	bitemyapp	this also lends to my growing yet already very great respect for the concurrency primitives in Clojure.
00:48	bitemyapp	Anything less nice or less composable would've made it considerably more difficult.
04:09	shoshin	ping what is exactly wrong with the implementation of this function?
04:09	shoshin	(defn sample
04:09	shoshin	[x {:keys [load?]
04:09	shoshin	:or {:load? false}}]
04:09	shoshin	(when load?
04:09	shoshin	(println "load? is true"))
04:09	shoshin	(println x))
04:09	shoshin	i call (sample "12) it returns an arity exception.
04:09	shoshin	* (sample "12")
04:10	shoshin	i've been trying to figure it out for quite sometime.
04:13	akrajan	shoshin: sample definition takes 2 arguments
04:13	akrajan	x and the destructured second param
04:13	shoshin	akrajan but i want the second one to be optional.
04:16	akrajan	(defn sample [x & [{:keys [load?] :or {:load? false}}]]
04:16	akrajan	(println "load? - " load?)
04:16	akrajan	(println x))
04:16	akrajan	shoshin: in the version i just pasted, the second argument is optional
04:17	shoshin	akrajan thanks! got the mistake!
04:17	akrajan	:-)
04:32	abaranosky	hello
05:04	mythz	does 'for' and 'doseq' evaluate the entire collection before iterating it? I'm getting odd results from use of atom, e.g:
05:04	mythz	(def i (atom 0)) (def q (map (fn [x] (swap! i inc)) (range 10)))
05:05	mythz	that creates a lazy map, but whenever I try to iterate over it with either 'for' or 'doseq' @i always evaluates to '10', e.g:
05:05	mythz	(for [v q] (println "v =" v ", i =" @i))
05:06	mythz	Is there way to iterate over the map so it only evaluates it one at a time? i.e. so i prints out: 1 2 3...
05:32	broquaint	I'm don't think it's possible, mythz, but I should imagine there's an equivalent way of doing what you want.
05:32	broquaint	s/don't//
05:33	mythz	ok that's interesting, surprised by the current behavior, I just assumed it would loop lazily
05:34	broquaint	Presumably one of the reasons it ought to be side-effect free :)
05:38	broquaint	,(def i (atom 0)) (let [q (map (fn [n] (swap! i inc)) (range))] (str (clojure.string/join " " (take 3 q)) ", @i = " @i))
05:38	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
05:38	broquaint	If you run that you can see the first 32 items are consumed.
05:57	mythz	yeah strange, so it must be reading it in chunks?
06:53	glosoli	I have two maps :a {} :b {} is there some nice way to remove from :a contents that were found in :b ?
06:58	scottj	glosoli: clojure.set/difference
06:58	glosoli	it's meant to work on sets only, isn't it ?
07:00	scottj	by contents do you mean keys?
07:00	glosoli	scottj: by contents I mean other maps can be inside too
07:01	glosoli	hmm It was incorrect of me, by contents I mean, maps
07:03	glosoli	Two maps like this i.e. {{:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3}} {{:a 2} {:b 2} {:c 3}}
07:03	scottj	glosoli: I think you mean {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} no?
07:04	glosoli	yeah probably, got confused myself
07:05	scottj	glosoli: what result do you want?
07:10	scottj	glosoli: come up with really simple input and result maps and then maybe someone can help you
07:11	glosoli	sec, gonna pastebin it :)
07:14	glosoli	scottj: the whole idea behind, is I have in memory session, which has map like this: https://www.refheap.com/20249 in some cases there might be ~15 entries in the uploaded fields (maps with file data). So the idea is, I filter out some of them (by client id). and intend to dissoc the filtered ones from
07:14	glosoli	scottj: is this more clear ?
07:17	scottj	glosoli: irc has a character limit, your message was cut at "filtered ones from"
07:18	glosoli	scottj: filtered ones from the original map of :uploaded-files
07:18	clojurebot	Huh?
07:27	pyr	hola
07:27	pyr	does lein 2.2.0 => 2.3.3 reportedly incur slower operations ?
07:29	mercwithamouth	just curious...i saw this on stackoverflow.. '(defn plus [[^double x1 ^double y1] [^double x2 ^double y2]]
07:29	mercwithamouth	what's the deal with the ^ ?!
07:31	scottj	mercwithamouth: type hints, it's a performance optimization
07:31	terom	glosoli: so you have a list of maps in a map. maybe start first with a filtering function for your list of maps, then (remove your-filter list-of-maps) perhaps...?
07:31	glosoli	terom: hmm
07:31	glosoli	terom: As stupid as it sounds, I never heard of remove
07:32	glosoli	thanks
07:34	scottj	glosoli: if you want to remove based on what's come earlier in the list then I don't think remove will help you.
07:34	scottj	glosoli: does this accurately describe your problem, particularly the :c 1 at the end, input {:a ({:b 1} {:b 2 :c 1} {:b 2 :c 2})}} ouput {:a ({:b 1} {:b 2 :c 1})}
07:35	glosoli	looks about right
07:36	scottj	glosoli: so you want to first entry for each :client-id? Does the resulting order matter?
07:37	glosoli	nah result order does not matter
07:38	glosoli	but if the same client-id with desired id for a file was filtered out, I am intended to dissoc it
07:48	mercwithamouth	scottj: ahh! thanks man
07:50	uruviel	/join #zeromq
07:50	uruviel	... sorry about that!
09:36	clgv	mercwithamouth: in the example you menationes the type hints for primitive tyes are use less because of destructuring
10:29	rafaelferreira	Hey guys
10:30	rafaelferreira	Quick question: is there a lib to convert from Java org.w3c.com.Node to clojure maps?
10:31	BobSchack	are you reading in HTML or the Node java object?
10:32	BobSchack	Because there are many good libraries for reading in HTML / XML in clojure
10:34	rafaelferreira	BobSchack I'm dealing with SOAP
10:34	rafaelferreira	I'm actually using SAAJ, a low-level API to avoid codegen cruft
10:34	rafaelferreira	My idea was to transform a DOM tree to clean clojure maps
10:36	aturley	does anyone have a good suggestion for generating a clojure s-expression from a simple php data structure (maps, lists, strings, and numbers)?
10:36	BobSchack	Ah unfortunately I don't have any experience with Java and Soap, sorry
10:37	bja	with the change in CLJS-1933 to remove / property access, do I need to thus access the window object as js/window?
10:37	rafaelferreira	Thanks BobSchack
10:38	rafaelferreira	SOAP is kind of immaterial to the problem. If any of the XML libs is able to convert from java's DOM I would be set.
10:38	BobSchack	https://github.com/nathell/clj-tagsoup
10:38	rafaelferreira	I'll google form Clojure XML libraries.
10:38	clojurebot	Excuse me?
10:38	BobSchack	?
10:38	rafaelferreira	Thanks
10:39	BobSchack	NP
10:55	bjl7	Is it possible to use a zipper with post order traversal? clojure.zip/next seems to use preorder traversal. The only relevant stackoverflow says to use clojure.walk instead (not really a solution)
11:02	uruviel	Does core.async have the notion of a "priority channel", i.e. what's the equivalent of a priority queue?
11:03	BobSchack	I believe you can set priority using alts
11:03	BobSchack	but nothing on the channel itself
11:04	uruviel	Right so when I have a conceptual stream of messages with a priority I can't really use core.async to get them off in that order?
11:05	stuartsierra	uruviel: Not as such, no. But you could have multiple channels, one for each level of priority, and `alts!` on them in priority order.
11:05	clgv	bjl7: I thought the traversal is entirely up to you depending on how you use next, prev, left, right ...
11:06	uruviel	stuartsierra: ah yes, that might be sensible I guess
11:09	eigenlicht	what's the difference between clojure's lazy-seq and python's iterators?
11:10	eigenlicht	I know, Clojure uses lazy seqs basically everywhere, wheras python doesn't have such a focus on iterators - but still it seems to me iterators can perfectly implement lazy seqs
11:13	mikerod	How do I get a primitive boolean type in Clojure? Some reason I'm not finding something that works.
11:14	mikerod	,(type (.booleanValue true))
11:14	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
11:14	mikerod	(type ^boolean (.booleanValue true))
11:14	mikerod	,(type ^boolean (.booleanValue true))
11:14	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
11:14	bjl7	clgv: you're probably right. I'm just going through a loop with "zip/next" at the recur and it seems to be preorder
11:14	mikerod	that's not right obviously :P
11:15	uvtc	,(class (boolean 1))
11:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
11:15	mdrogalis	Wow. One of my EC2 nodes just disappeared out of thin air.
11:16	mdrogalis	Has that ever happened to anyone? Running instance shutdown and deleted.
11:16	xuser	you got pawned ;)
11:16	llasram	mikerod: `type` and `class` take reference types, so you'll never get them return a primitive type -- it'll always autobox
11:17	mikerod	llasram: oh... dang
11:17	mdrogalis	xuser: I'd think AWS burped more than that.
11:17	llasram	mikerod: What are you trying to do?
11:18	mikerod	I have a boxed Boolean from a clojure literal, I'd like to use the primitive boolean instead in its place in one particular place
11:18	mikerod	for a sort of interop
11:20	llasram	Is the issue that you're calling a method which has overloads for both `boolean` and `Boolean` (or `Object`), and you want to make sure the `boolean` version gets invoked?
11:36	jtoy	in a clojure function, so it is an implicit do if i do something like (defn hi [] (println "test") 2) ? I see that that works
11:36	jtoy	?
11:37	coventry	jtoy: Yes.
11:37	coventry	If you mean that the forms in the defn body get executed in series...
11:42	uvtc	jtoy, you also get an implicit `do` inside a `let`.
11:44	dav	where does lein deps save the jar files?
11:44	coventry	dav: ~/.m2/repository
11:46	dav	coventry: ah, thanks.
11:47	dav	Does anyone know if core.typed supports type classes?
11:47	dnolen	dav: that wouldn't make sense, Clojure has protocols
11:49	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/User-Guide#datatypes-and-protocols
11:51	dav	is there a protocol for operations on numeric types like + - * etc?
11:51	arrdem	dav: not normally. there are libraries that provide one.
12:01	wakeup	Hi
12:01	wakeup	How do I sort a list of strings in alphanumerical order?
12:02	llasram	wakeup: not just with `sort`?
12:02	coventry	,(sort '("zxyw" "abcd"))
12:02	justin_smith	llasram: that is ascii order
12:02	clojurebot	("abcd" "zxyw")
12:02	justin_smith	not alnum
12:02	wakeup	hmm
12:02	justin_smith	,(sort ["a1" "0a" "zx" "Zy" "A0"])
12:02	clojurebot	("0a" "A0" "Zy" "a1" "zx")
12:03	justin_smith	not alnum
12:03	znDuff	wakeup: What, exactly, does "alphanumerical" mean to you? Locale-specific collation order?
12:03	wakeup	No byte order would suffice
12:03	dav	dnolen / arrdem - so what would be the type of sort ?
12:04	dav	hopefully not [Any]->[Any]
12:04	znDuff	wakeup: ...uhh, byte order is ASCII order, at least for ASCII-encoded bytes.
12:04	wakeup	ascii order is fine, thanks.
12:04	justin_smith	wakeup: if you are OK with Z coming before a, regular sort works, otherwise you can pass in a custom sorting function to sort
12:05	justin_smith	also note that "11" will come before "2"
12:05	bbloom	dav: clojure's standard library is not typable with haskell's type system :-P
12:06	bbloom	dav: try this in your repl: (source sort)
12:06	bbloom	dav: a closer approximation would be Seqable -> Seq
12:16	dav	bbloom: :(
12:16	bbloom	dav: what's the sad face about?
12:16	dav	bbloom: "clojure's standard library is not typable with haskell's type system"
12:16	dav	bbloom: I kinda love the haskell typesystem :/
12:17	bbloom	dav: sure, but haskell's type system is for typing... wait for it.... haskell programs
12:17	bbloom	dav: if you're new to Clojure, I recommend you avoid core.typed (as cool as it is) and take some time to learn what makes Clojure unique.
12:18	bbloom	dav: you might have to unlearn some stuff about haskell, but there are many former or current haskell programmers in here who would be happy to compare/contrast & shed light on things
12:19	dav	I had learned some lisp before haskell but I find lisp/clojure less readable than haskell and I get to aberations at runtime which I suspect 99% of which would be eliminated by a typecheck..
12:20	dav	bbloom: so what makes clojure unique?
12:21	bbloom	dav: start here clojure.org/rationale
12:21	clgv	"less readable than haskell" :D
12:21	bbloom	then check out some of Rich's stuff on InfoQ, and maybe pick up a book
12:22	phalphalak	dav: I think performance bottlenecks caused by reflection or other type related issues are rather rare… of course, it depends on the problem you are working on
12:22	coventry	Yeah, Rich Hickey cares more about keeping things flexible so that you can get the design right (minimal and easy to follow) rather than tools. See his criticism of TDD in "Simple Made Easy" and his complete disinterest in fixing mystifying compiler errors in "Design, Composition, Performance."
12:22	muhoo	i'm using clojure.tools.trace on a function that trampolines, but i'm getting output that ends like this https://www.refheap.com/20253
12:23	indigo	coventry: Oh lame... I thought people were working on those errors ;P
12:23	muhoo	does trace really turn it into a huge stack? or is that just the output?
12:23	dav	coventry: I don't see how an optional type checker removes any flexibility since it's optional..
12:24	coventry	indigo: They are working on it, but it is not a huge priority. Read through a few of http://dev.clojure.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=labels+%3D+errormsgs
12:25	coventry	dav: I was saying that in support of bbloom's suggestion that you steer clear of core.typed for a while.
12:26	xuser	can lein run a single clj file? like when you java -cp clojure-1.5.1.jar clojure.main test.clj
12:27	coventry	muhoo: It doesn't track the full stack, just the depth.
12:27	dav	coventry: gonna watch simple made easy now.
12:28	pepijndevos	I have so far failed misserable at installing Fedora on my iMac
12:28	pepijndevos	oops
12:28	xuser	+do
12:28	bbloom	dav: some portion of what rich is saying will be obvious to you as a haskell programmer, but remember the audience & try to parse out the bits that are different from haskell's philosphy
12:31	justin_smith	phalphalak: he doesn't mean performance problems when he says runtime abberations, he means errors - ie. ones that in a static type system would be caught before runtime
12:31	phalphalak	justin_smith: i see, thanks for clarifying
12:32	uvtc	coventry, can you summarize the issue around disinterest in fixing mystifying compiler errors?
12:33	coventry	uvtc: It's just a throwaway line in that talk about what to prioritize in the development of clojure. I don't remember where in the talk he says it, I'm afraid.
12:34	dnolen	dav: there's a #typed-clojure if you have Typed Clojure specific questions, sort is going to have pretty complicated signature. In general Clojure code is more flexible than typical Haskell code and thus the signatures tend to be somewhat sophisticated.
12:34	phalphalak	i was kinda shocked about what steward halloway said about static typing at euroclojure after I realized that he maybe wasn't being sarcastic anymore
12:34	uvtc	coventry, Ok. Thanks.
12:34	clgv	phalphalak: what did he say?
12:35	coventry	uvtc: There's like a 5% probability that I have the wrong talk, too.
12:35	phalphalak	clgv: "Static Typing is an academical experiment only suitable for small projects."
12:35	dnolen	dav: as far Haskell vs. Clojure ... they share the same deep principles about how to write good software - immutability, functional programming. Things start diverging pretty quickly after that.
12:35	bbloom	phalphalak: are you talking about his tongue-in-cheek "how to increase job security" talk?
12:35	coventry	uvtc: (But I know he said it, because mystifying compiler errors have been a pain point for me, so it stood out. :-)
12:35	phalphalak	bbloom: we were not sure if he was still being sarcastic or not
12:35	phalphalak	bbloom: but yeah, this talk
12:36	indigo	coventry: I think it's a pain point for everyone
12:37	bbloom	indigo: shrug i'm not saying the errors couldn't be better... all i'm saying is that i've seen worse :-P
12:37	indigo	Haha
12:37	uvtc	coventry, the "Design, Composition and Performance" talk is the one where I take a break mid-way through to hear what this "Coltrane" is all about. :)
12:37	indigo	Same here... PHP... shakes fist
12:37	coventry	indigo: Some of them are hard to fix while preserving the value of keeping clojure simple. See the patches and discussion in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1279 for instance. (Maybe less hard for someone more experienced than me.)
12:38	indigo	Ah
12:38	indigo	Basically, compilers are hard
12:39	bbloom	compilers are hard for many of the same reasons that type systems are complex ;-)
12:39	bbloom	compilers are about exploiting static properties to perform translations which achieve fast performing, correct code without breaking operational semantics or dev workflows
12:39	indigo	Lots and lots of edge cases
12:39	bbloom	indeed
12:40	justin_smith	indigo: I found the perfect metaphor for PHP today, it's a German idiom: teh wooly egg-laying milkable pig http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wollmilchsau.jpg
12:40	bbloom	especially with an unwilling host
12:40	bbloom	justin_smith: lol, i'm not sure how that applies, but it's awesome
12:40	wakeup	justin_smith: No that means many uses
12:40	justin_smith	too many :)
12:40	justin_smith	ball of mud
12:40	indigo	Meh... PHP doesn't have many uses
12:40	wakeup	justin_smith: PHP is just a shitstorm of legendary proportions
12:40	indigo	(outside of webdev)
12:41	justin_smith	maybe ruby was the right example - I just saw the thing and it made me think of a poorly designed programming language (throw a little of everything in there...)
12:41	wakeup	I thought ruby was php6?
12:41	indigo	Ruby is Perl6
12:41	indigo	Node.js is php6
12:41	wakeup	haha
12:42	wakeup	but you guys
12:42	wakeup	clojure is kind of the PHP of lisps ;)
12:42	coventry	perl6 is perl6, but the iron is no longer hot. :-)
12:43	uvtc	indigo, Perl 6 is Perl 6. Ruby seems pretty Perlish though.
12:43	justin_smith	wakeup: php doesn't even have a parser, it just evaluates line by line
12:43	justin_smith	I think clojure hits a slightly higher standard than that
12:43	teslanick	That's not really fair to node: php has a sprawling, inconsistent API. Node is tight and fairly consistent.
12:44	indigo	Haha I guess
12:44	indigo	And also Node is designed to run for a long time
12:44	indigo	If you run a PHP process for a while you will get memory leaks
12:44	teslanick	And it's unreasonably hard to write HTML in node. :)
12:44	teslanick	In PHP it's just a ?> away.
12:45	indigo	wakeup: CL is the PHP of lisps
12:46	TimMc	justin_smith: "Ovogena lano-lakto-porko" in Esperanto :-D
12:46	phalphalak	indigo: if CL is the PHP of lisps then I can't wait to get my hands on the ruby of lisps
12:46	wink	teslanick: it's only semi-inconsistent. It's consistent with the c libs below
12:47	indigo	phalphalak: That's probably going to be Clojure
12:47	coventry	I guess hy is the de facto python of lisps.
12:47	teslanick	wink: There's such a thing as semi-inconsistent? Wouldn't semi-inconsistency actually be meta-inconsistency? It's inconsistent about being inconsistent.
12:48	wink	justin_smith: not sure if you're just trolling, but have you seen http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=blob_plain;f=Zend/zend_language_parser.y;hb=HEAD ?
12:48	justin_smith	wink: perhaps I was misinformed, not trying to troll at all
12:48	wink	teslanick: interesting question :) I was just refuting a "seemingly random" API, it's not consistent in itself, but consistent towards its abstractions
12:49	wink	teslanick: like the needle/haystack argument. all string funcs are consistent, and all array ones as well - but reversed order when compared between each other
12:49	justin_smith	wink: what about the naming and arg order conventions - or is that all reflecting the c apis?
12:50	wink	justin_smith: mostly from the c apis, yes
12:50	ToxicFrog	coventry: in principle, it seems like you could get 90% of the way there by having the compiler throw ClojureCompilerError instead of whatever it throws now, and at catch time handling that differently from a "normal" exception (i.e. don't vomit the compiler's entire stack to the terminal)
12:50	wink	I am not saying there are NO inconsistencies, I really don't know if.
12:50	ToxicFrog	The hard part is fixing all the existing throws.
12:51	teslanick	wink: I was mostly making a joke. It's been so long since I've programmed in PHP that I've forgotten most of the horrors contained within.
12:52	wink	teslanick: PHP has enough real problems, so I try to dismantle the false ones :)
12:52	coventry	ToxicFrog: The difficulty is that at the time the ArityException is thrown, you're in a function call and have no way of determining whether the function is being called as a macro.
12:53	coventry	ToxicFrog: You can catch it in macroexpand1 and re-wrap it in a CompilerException, and just ignore the fact that the reported arity will be wrong in many circumstances. I have been thinking of submitting a patch like that.
12:53	coventry	ToxicFrog: You could just add a warning to the exception message "The arity may be off by two", I guess. :-)
12:55	wink	I was playing around with DrRacket last weekend, somehow it's neat
12:56	muhoo	keep having to go back to the well on that: http://perevodik.net/en/posts/39/
12:57	xuser	wink: the repl in DrRacket is great and easy to start with
12:58	teslanick	muhoo: So mean to javascript
12:58	ToxicFrog	coventry: personally, I would consider the occasional incorrect arity acceptable (it's not like compilers for other languages don't often have off-by-n errors on which line the error occurred on!) if it meant the output was [location: error] rather than [location: error, 50+ lines of stack trace]
12:58	wink	xuser: actually I started implementing a web app, as usual :P
12:58	ToxicFrog	That said, I'm speaking about compiler exceptions in general, not the macroexpand ArityException in specific.
13:00	xuser	wink: cool, you following the web application tutorial on racket's website?
13:02	wink	xuser: yeah, started with that and then expanded. it was only some sort of reading HTTP Headers from EVE Online's ingame browser.
13:02	technomancy	wink: the racket guys bend over backwards for usability; it's really commendable
13:05	xuser	technomancy: can lein run standalone clj files? like in 'java -cp clojure-1.5.1.jar clojure.main test.clj'
13:05	makkalot	hi, is there a way to get string name of an atom, (def t (atom 1)) ?
13:05	technomancy	xuser: sure; `lein run -m clojure.main/main -i test.clj`
13:06	technomancy	xuser: you can set up an alias for that in your user profile if you use it a lot
13:06	technomancy	makkalot: atoms don't have names; vars do
13:06	makkalot	technomancy, ok what is the way to do for vars ?
13:07	xuser	technomancy: great, gonna check out how to set up the alias cause that's not any shorter than the java version ;)
13:07	technomancy	,(-> #'clojure.core/reduce meta :name) ; <- makkalot
13:07	clojurebot	reduce
13:08	technomancy	xuser: it's shorter if you need the project classpath
13:08	makkalot	technomancy, great thanks
13:13	muhoo	oh, dr. racket used to be dr. scheme, i remember that
13:20	makkalot	it seems #'obj doesn't work in clojurescript ?
13:20	technomancy	makkalot: correct; clojurescript lacks vars
13:20	technomancy	part of the reason I don't use it
13:20	bbloom	lol
13:20	bbloom	oh technomancy...
13:20	makkalot	i see :)
13:21	bbloom	i've been pushing dnolen for vars, even half-assed vars that would let #' work for the extra indirection during development
13:21	bbloom	but no luck yet
13:21	technomancy	bbloom: well not the main reason, but vars are my favourite clojure feature more or less
13:21	bbloom	technomancy: i've heard you say something to that effect before, but i'm not quite sure i've heard your justification
13:22	bbloom	can i prompt a rant?
13:22	arrdem	dis gon b gud
13:22	technomancy	well, philosophically the whole point vars exist is to support interactive development and reloading, which is the most important thing I look for in a language
13:23	technomancy	I know clojurescript supports this now, but it wasn't designed that way from the start, which rubs me the wrong way
13:23	clgv	are there any threading macro implementations with a fork-join-metaphor?
13:23	bbloom	clojurescript accomplishes the same goal with a different technique
13:23	bbloom	namely: it always looks up vars by fully qualified dotted paths to mutable objects that act as namespaces
13:24	technomancy	I also like the neat insane hacks you can do with vars like robert-hooke
13:24	bbloom	haha, fair enough
13:24	technomancy	and the fact that they can contain metadata is huge for tooling
13:24	dnolen	technomancy: what you're saying barely makes sense. the only thing you can't do w/o vars is convenient namespace level metaprogramming. 90% of which you can accomplish via the macro + analyzer.
13:24	clgv	starting with the same value, splitting up into n code paths manipulating the data differently and finally joining it with a given function/expression
13:24	bbloom	i've spent some time thinking about what live programming looks like with static name resolution, if it's at all even possible
13:25	dnolen	technomancy: an in fact meta programming in CLJS can be even more convenient since you can get the entire compilation environment as a MAP
13:25	bbloom	dnolen had the seed of a great idea when talking about session w/ kovas over some drinks
13:25	technomancy	dnolen: I took bbloom's question as a request to cover what I like about clojure vars, not a request to rant about clojurescript, which I know little about
13:25	bbloom	the idea of a "notebook" being in "draft mode" is similar in many ways to the notion of compile vs run time
13:25	dnolen	technomancy: yes but most of what you said just sounds inaccurate
13:26	technomancy	bbloom: test selectors and nrepl-discover are both built on var metadata
13:26	bbloom	technomancy: cljs can do that with the namespaces atom, it holds the same metadata
13:27	technomancy	bbloom: also I come from elisp with its weird symbol-table that's kind of a no-mans-land; the fact that vars are very first-class and act in ways you expect if you're familiar with other c.l.IDerefs is great
13:27	bbloom	technomancy: it's just decoupled from the objects themselves, b/c it's only available on one side of the environment stratification boundary
13:32	TimMc	Does CLJS have dynamic scope for vars?
13:33	dnolen	TimMc: for those declared ^:dynamic
13:34	mdrogalis	Ricon is on live if anyone is interested.
13:35	bbloom	TimMc: but you can't capture the dynamic scope with bound-fn, etc
13:43	coventry	What is Ricon?
13:44	coventry	NM, http://ricon.io/east.html I guess.
13:46	makkalot	is there a way i can write unittests for my clojurescript code ?
13:47	dnolen	makkalot: https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test
13:47	makkalot	dnolen, great thanks
13:48	uvtc	What is the purpose of the `num` function? What exactly does it coerce into a number? (I notice, for example, that it won't convert a string to a number.)
13:48	mdrogalis	First Ricon talk is pretty funny.
13:49	makkalot	http://ricon.io/live.html
13:52	joegallo	uvtc: looks like it coerces numeric primitives to java.lang.Number, and such like
13:53	justin_smith	,(num (/ 4 3))
13:53	clojurebot	4/3
13:53	justin_smith	(doc num)
13:53	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to Number"
13:55	uvtc	justin_smith, but `(/ 4 3)`already gives me that ratio of 4/3... I'm squinting at that docstring... I guess I don't see where you'd need to use `num`.
13:55	justin_smith	yeah, I am trying to figure that out myself
13:55	justin_smith	,(source num)
13:55	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
13:56	justin_smith	meh
13:56	justin_smith	the source is not very revealing either
13:56	justin_smith	"The num coercion function boxes primitives to force generic arithmetic"
13:57	justin_smith	it can be used when you have an unboxed input and need to guerantee you have the general boxed version
13:57	justin_smith	http://clojure.org/java_interop
13:57	uvtc	justin_smith, Mm. Thanks.
13:58	justin_smith	so it is the oposite of int / long etc. (which create unboxed)
13:58	mdrogalis	This speaker is so intense.
13:58	uvtc	mdrogalis, turn down the volume.
13:58	uvtc	;)
13:58	bja	is there a way to verify the version of some library that is being used beyond lein classpath and lein deps :tree
13:58	mdrogalis	It's in his voice, it ain't going away! uvtc
13:58	coventry	mdrogalis: It sounds a lot like datomic, actually. :-)
13:58	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:59	mdrogalis	Indeed. I can't give my complete concentration to it, but vaguely it does.
13:59	Bronsa	uvtc: justin_smith ##(double (/ 2 3))
13:59	lazybot	⇒ 0.6666666666666667
14:00	llasram	bja: What more confirmation would you want?
14:00	Bronsa	uvtc: nevermind, I thought you were asking something else
14:00	llasram	You could dump the classpath from inside your JVM
14:01	bja	well, I'm trying to use clojurescript 1978, which depends on tools.reader 0.7.10
14:01	justin_smith	Bronsa: yeah, I was just experimenting with num, ratio behavior was an acid test
14:01	bja	it needs a var called alias-map
14:01	bja	but I can't find it
14:01	justin_smith	but now that I know it is for boxing it all makes sense
14:01	bja	in my repl and clojurescript complains about not having it
14:01	bja	but clearly tools.reader 0.7.10 is the only thing on my classpath and the only thing mentioned in my deps :tree
14:02	bja	so I'm wondering if lein deps :tree is missing some transitive dependency
14:04	Bronsa	bja: tried a lein clean?
14:07	bja	Bronsa: I have. I also tried killing my .m2 directory
14:07	bja	to make sure I had no random deps lying around
14:08	bja	after rerunning something that triggers lein deps, I do see a 0.7.10 entry in my .m2
14:08	bja	but clojure.core/ns-publics tells me that I'm missing things from clojure.tools.reader
14:09	Bronsa	bja: can you paste your project.clj?
14:10	bja	hmm
14:10	makkalot	is it possible sometimes not to call waches on an atom ?
14:11	bja	well, I isolated the issue, and it is a transitive dependency problem. in a non-public library, we reference tools.reader
14:11	bja	when I was removing that line to make a gist
14:11	bja	I found my alias-map
14:12	shaungilchrist	hah just have to say cljs source maps are a thing of real beauty!
14:13	coventry	makkalot: What are you trying to do?
14:13	konr	just a curiosity: what do you use at work? Scrum, Kanban, PMF?
14:13	apricots	hi, what's the most like a Datomic but open source?
14:13	mdrogalis	Anyone watching Ricon: This guy's life seems so hard o.o
14:14	makkalot	coventry, i change a value of atom and notify some other parts of application, but sometimes i don't want to notify
14:14	pisketti	konr: what's PMF?
14:14	konr	pisketti: http://programming-motherfucker.com/ :)
14:15	coventry	makkalot: Compose the notification fn with something which decides when to notify.
14:15	pisketti	konr: aah, ok 8)
14:15	pisketti	That would be optimal
14:15	pisketti	I saw a great t-shirt on an agile conference last year..
14:15	mdrogalis	apricots: Apparently what's being talked about at Ricon right now, heh
14:15	pisketti	It said: "I code while you Agile"
14:16	mdrogalis	Actually it's not open source. But they're similar.
14:16	konr	pisketti: awesome :)
14:17	apricots	Raik 2.0?
14:18	mdrogalis	Something called Keystone.
14:18	makkalot	coventry, but is there a way to pass some extra info to notify fn so i can tell it not to send the notification ?
14:22	coventry	makkalot: Not via the add-watch mechanism. What are you really trying to do?
14:22	makkalot	coventry, i have 2 systems that notify each others, so trying to escape from infinite loop notification
14:23	makkalot	probably direct atom operations are not good fit for that
14:24	makkalot	coventry, when a changes i want to change b and when b changes want to change a
14:30	coventry	makkalot: Rather than using watches, I would put responsibility for changing a and b in straight functions which update both states according to your rules.
14:31	makkalot	coventry, yeah probably that is better way
14:36	mmitchell	technomancy: Hi. Is it possible to create a leiningen "alias" that includes a "do" for running multiple tasks? I can't get it to work, so maybe it's not support or I'm doing it wrong?
14:36	hyPiRion	mmitchell: sure. :aliases {"alias" ["do" "task1," "task2"]}
14:37	mmitchell	ahh, the comma!
14:37	technomancy	mmitchell: relevant: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1359
14:37	technomancy	coming in 2.3.4
14:37	technomancy	will make that less confusing
14:37	mmitchell	technomancy: awesome
14:40	gtrak	are cljs macros cljs-namespace aware? If-not, I'm wondering if I could do symbol resolution hacks on bbloom's backtick lib to make it so :-).
14:42	dnolen	gtrak: they are not cljs-namespace aware. Would be a nice enhancement for CLJS to have it's own macro expander to fix this wart.
14:43	dnolen	gtrak: eventually it'll have to happen anyway
14:44	gtrak	yea, I'm wondering if there's any quick-hits to be made. I miss the ability to decompose macros into functions and wrappers.
14:45	gtrak	but cljs can't call the function-version in the clj, and the clj-macro can't easily see functions in the cljs, so it would just be terribly awkward.
14:47	gtrak	looking at the design page, though ;-)
14:47	dnolen	gtrak: cljs not being able to call the function version is not particularly important, and the second issue is trivial, the macro can see anything the compiler has seen
14:47	gtrak	if you fully-qualify it?
14:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: good news: chrishouser: @bitemyapp You can use the name with my blessing iff the stack trace is entirely converted to edn before any processing. :-)
14:48	technomancy	bitemyapp: ahaha
14:48	technomancy	doesn't it do that already?
14:48	dnolen	gtrak: no, the macro can just take the namespace atom from the analyzer and look it + whatever namespace you are currently in to properly resolve everything at expansion time just like Clojure
14:48	technomancy	surely he doesn't mean serialized to edn and then read back in again
14:48	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's so strange to me that somebody like Houser has to get permission to release code, yet I'm trusted implicitly to know what I can and cannot open source at my company.
14:49	technomancy	bitemyapp: I will never understand The Enterprise
14:49	gtrak	dnolen: gotcha, I knew there had to be some accessible state, somewhere.
14:49	technomancy	(other than NCC1701[-az])
14:49	technomancy	regex fail; oops
14:49	arunkn	Just noticed something strange
14:49	arunkn	(println "keyword = " (str (keyword "hello")) "- kkword:" (str (keyword (keyword "hello"))))
14:50	arunkn	prints
14:50	arunkn	keyword = :hello - kkword: :hello
14:50	bitemyapp	,(println "keyword = " (str (keyword "hello")) "- kkword:" (str (keyword (keyword "hello"))))
14:50	clojurebot	keyword = :hello - kkword: :hello\n
14:50	arunkn	in clojure
14:50	bitemyapp	if you'd just provided a comma at the beginning we wouldn't have to take your word for it on what it prints.
14:50	arunkn	:hello - kkword: ::hello
14:50	technomancy	bitemyapp: though I'm not sure how to justify a rename without putting a ton of work into it
14:50	arunkn	in clojurescript
14:50	arunkn	bitemyapp: thanks for the tip
14:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: Me either, but I found a nice stack trace prettification (not elision, just chunking and organizing) library so there's some material that could be integrated together.
14:51	bitemyapp	I'm mostly musing on it, my active project right now is Revise, anything OSS that I do will have to follow that.
14:51	arunkn	,(keyword (keyword "hello"))
14:51	clojurebot	:hello
14:51	arrdem	bitemyapp: longbottom. really.
14:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: Really.
14:52	technomancy	bitemyapp: the one that assumes you have a 30-inch display and don't use a window manager?
14:52	arunkn	in clojure and it returns
14:52	arunkn	::hello in clojurescript
14:52	arrdem	(inc bitemyapp)
14:52	lazybot	⇒ 8
14:52	arunkn	any reason?
14:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: I didn't plan to use width in the same manner, just draw inspiration from the "separation"
14:52	bitemyapp	arunkn: the bot is for explaining things, but please don't use it as a personal REPL.
14:53	arunkn	no, i am not. just trying to point out the weirdness I am seeing
14:53	technomancy	bitemyapp: cool. if something happens I'll be happy to point to it from the clj-stacktrace readme
14:53	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm hoping to get a co-author on this one too, in case anybody else is equally inspired by easier to read stacktraces.
14:54	bitemyapp	I'm with Houser and Sierra that elision isn't a good idea, but emphasis and organization can go a long way.
14:54	technomancy	bitemyapp: pluggable elision seems like a pretty obvious win
14:54	bitemyapp	as long as it's optional, yeah.
14:54	technomancy	defaults will undoubtedly be contentious
14:55	technomancy	wouldn't be horrible to default to "I'm actively working on the clojure compiler" mode as long as "application developer" mode is just a one-liner.
14:55	bitemyapp	I think elision can be pulled off successfully for most application development.
14:56	technomancy	of course you'd have to be able to swap it out at runtime
14:56	bitemyapp	stacktrace retention and "replay" would be nice, because if you get an elided stacktrace that you think is missing something, you can just request a full replay of it.
14:56	technomancy	I haven't found a great solution for configuring small libs like that. the temptation is to put it in the user profile of lein, but that's pretty clearly wrong
14:56	technomancy	proliferating tiny config files isn't great either
14:57	technomancy	so far I have punted on slamhound
14:57	technomancy	but it has the same problem
14:57	bitemyapp	technomancy: I have a pretty good pattern (imho) for this in bulwark that I have some ideas for improving upon.
14:57	bitemyapp	(closures \|\| atom) ++ environment variables
14:58	technomancy	env vars are super annoying for development tho
14:58	technomancy	since they're immutable
14:58	bitemyapp	technomancy: precedence. env vars are lowest precedence.
14:58	muhoo	weavejester's environs lib is nic3
14:58	bitemyapp	technomancy: closures override atoms override env
14:59	technomancy	when I use env vars I typically end up hard-coding the default dev-appropriate values into the codebase so I can change them with reloads
14:59	bitemyapp	muhoo: environ* - I'm a massive fan of it.
14:59	technomancy	even with environ
14:59	bitemyapp	it's more pliable than I think you're imagining.
15:00	justin_smith	I don't like environ because I find it helpful to run two different configs in parallel and environ uses the fs so it isn't reentrant
15:00	technomancy	bitemyapp: I know I can go in an edit the .lein-env file and trigger a reload of environ, but it's cumbersome and error-prone
15:00	justin_smith	which means what, check out my repo twice?
15:00	gtrak	dnolen: looking at the macros design page, it seems the issues for a complete solution are &form and &env, and hacking the clojure-reader? Plus backends for repls?
15:00	bitemyapp	that's...not how you're supposed to use it :\|
15:00	bitemyapp	you're missing that I said env vars were lowest precedence.
15:00	uvtc	Regarding stacktraces, would love to see nicely aligned and color-coded stacktraces...
15:01	dnolen	gtrak: link?
15:01	gtrak	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Macros
15:01	technomancy	bitemyapp: sure; I haven't used your system; just saying this is a problem with environ
15:01	bitemyapp	you're supposed to configure behavior by either changing the atom or creating new instances from closures.
15:01	technomancy	bitemyapp: this is something nrepl-discover would be nice for
15:01	bitemyapp	the env vars are just a way to set/override defaults from the outside world.
15:02	bitemyapp	but the code is king, so to speak.
15:02	technomancy	M-x nrepl-config-set instead of hunting around for an atom somewhere with tab completion
15:02	sritchie	when you guys build apps w/ cljsbuild and generate js,
15:02	sritchie	is best practice to generate smaller js targets, rather than 1 big one?
15:02	sritchie	this isn't a single page app -
15:02	technomancy	bitemyapp: but having an override atom is a lot better than raw environ
15:03	sritchie	rather, I'd have a javascript embed on one page, and a chat-like page on another html page… that sort of pattern
15:03	bitemyapp	sritchie: I think most people do one big target + routing for nice caching, but it can make sense to split it up. It just usually isn't worth bothering with.
15:03	bitemyapp	sritchie: I think people don't really want to have to change their templates much.
15:03	sritchie	gotcha
15:03	sritchie	what do you mean by routing?
15:03	dnolen	gtrak: that design page is awful, I would not refer to it
15:03	bitemyapp	technomancy: and having closures is better than only being allowed singleton global config.
15:03	sritchie	bitemyapp: wrt the generated js files
15:03	bitemyapp	sritchie: client-side apps use routing to determine what logic gets triggered where.
15:04	technomancy	bitemyapp: sounds better, but in my limited experience I haven't felt that particular pain point yet =)
15:04	bitemyapp	sritchie: routing is how you handle having the logic for multiple pages in one file.
15:04	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's amazing for testing.
15:04	sritchie	gotcha
15:04	sritchie	okay, cool
15:04	sritchie	bitemyapp: it's a brave new world here on the front end :)
15:04	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's just cleaner/more FP, and I don't really like singleton libraries even if there are constraints making it so anyway.
15:05	bitemyapp	I try not to presume I can imagine every possible use-case and try to provide for non-singleton use-cases modulo simplicity of the code.
15:05	technomancy	conceptually I am on board =)
15:05	bitemyapp	Cool.
15:05	bitemyapp	I'll try to meditate on what sort of behavior is desirable/doable.
15:05	bitemyapp	technomancy: what's the typical width of your terminals?
15:06	technomancy	bitemyapp: 78 in X, 87 in a terminal
15:07	bitemyapp	damned close to 80. I wonder what my width was in Xmonad. More than that I think because I use honkin' big monitors.
15:07	bitemyapp	I need to get one o' them 4k thing-joggers so I can pretend I live in the Matrix.
15:07	technomancy	yeah, that's my minimum when I'm away from home
15:07	technomancy	which is ~twice a week
15:08	technomancy	I got to try an oculous over th eweekend
15:08	bitemyapp	sritchie: with lein cljsbuild, did you run into this error perchance? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: reader/alias-map in this context
15:08	bitemyapp	technomancy: oh cool, how was that?
15:08	sritchie	I haven't seen that one before
15:08	technomancy	trippy stuff. makes me wonder how long till we have WMs with free-floating workspaces rather than fixed 1-9.
15:09	technomancy	bitemyapp: it doesn't work that well with existing 3D exploration input
15:09	justin_smith	technomancy: map workspace to the actual architecture of your house
15:09	technomancy	since the mouse overlaps with te functionality of the turn sensors
15:09	justin_smith	reddit in the bathroom workspace, youtube in the kitchen workspace, work related stuff in the office workspace
15:09	tbaldridge	technomancy: I've heard the older models of the oculous was too low res for working with text/code. Is it any better now?
15:10	technomancy	justin_smith: https://mobile.twitter.com/HardSciFiMovies/status/395187189492903936?p
15:10	rasmusto	tbaldridge: the new one isn't available yet, is it?
15:10	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: I think they're still on the same revision.
15:10	technomancy	tbaldridge: it's too low-res for code if you don't have a free-floating WM
15:10	rasmusto	tbaldridge: first gen is definitely not suited for text
15:11	tbaldridge	ah, I thought they had released the new version.
15:11	technomancy	tbaldridge: if you were able to pan around your single huge workspace by moving your head, I think the current res could be suitable
15:11	bitemyapp	It amuses me that the 3d file explorer
15:11	rasmusto	they're showing it off now, but you can't get it
15:11	bitemyapp	in Jurassic Park is ridiculed as an example of silly Hollywood, but it was a real Unix app/
15:11	shaungilchrist	I think you could use computercraft with it and that is good enough for me
15:11	wink	silly as in: not really usable maybe?
15:11	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: yep, and it ran on SGI workstations, the most awesome machines ever made by man, IMO.
15:12	rasmusto	technomancy: oculus rift can replace wobbly windows and 3d desktop cube imo
15:12	technomancy	tbaldridge: better than symbolics machines? gasp
15:12	technomancy	rasmusto: exactly; if it were a free plane rather than distinct workspaces
15:13	bitemyapp	if the free-floating could be made to work efficiently (minimum of motion) that could be neat
15:13	sritchie	bitemyapp: so, quick follow up
15:13	bitemyapp	but I have a hard time imagining how it could be made more efficient than Xmonad.
15:13	sritchie	so if everyone has some JS business,
15:13	technomancy	bitemyapp: right; like a binding to toggle "locking" to a specific position
15:13	sritchie	bitemyapp: then you just need to be disciplined about your divs, I suppose?
15:13	rasmusto	technomancy: i guess one of the weird things about current workspaces is that they're max-resolution at all points, and don't dynamically change based on what you're looking at
15:13	technomancy	bitemyapp: the advantage is it could have a much larger effective surface area
15:14	rasmusto	I could see them using head-tracking to sort of give you a "resolution fisheye lens" for looking at details/text
15:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: 'ish. The simplest thing to do is to have a universal singleton "content" div into whom each page is injected.
15:14	technomancy	rasmusto: since your brain already does that with color/detail =)
15:14	sritchie	bitemyapp: so, say, in form validation, you don't grab hold of some form on the wrong page
15:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: Example of a router, I know of it from the author: https://github.com/gf3/secretary
15:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: you use routing to avoid mis-applied logic.
15:14	rasmusto	technomancy: make the technology match the brain
15:14	bitemyapp	the DOM only needs to be consistent insofar as you maintain an injectable container.
15:14	technomancy	rasmusto: you can't do that with head position alone though; you need eye tracking
15:15	technomancy	difficult to do both at the same time
15:15	bitemyapp	you do not rely on a universal DOM structure and shouldn't be misfiring logic.
15:15	rasmusto	technomancy: I think carmack is shooting lasers into his eyes as we speak to try and make thing a reality
15:15	technomancy	rasmusto: I believe it =)
15:16	rasmusto	pretty sure I skipped a few words in that last sentence
15:17	bitemyapp	if I have :source-paths ["src" "src/clj"] in my Leiningen, and I have a namespace like src/clj/blah/woot/baz then blah.woot.baz without clj in front of it should work right?
15:17	gf3	bitemyapp, sritchie: Example of using the router with HTML5 history: https://gist.github.com/noprompt/6775563
15:17	bitemyapp	sritchie: did you see my question about the error? I can't lein cljsbuild to work.
15:17	technomancy	huh; source is available, but it only builds with visual studio: https://github.com/cybereality/Perception
15:17	bitemyapp	gf3: thank you
15:17	technomancy	better than I expected actually
15:17	sritchie	bitemyapp: yeah, I haven't seen that error before -
15:17	bitemyapp	gf3: what's the Google Closure way to trigger the routing on page load?
15:17	sritchie	I'm on lein 2.3.3, using :plugins [[lein-cljsbuild "0.3.4"]]
15:17	rasmusto	technomancy: ah, this is that game wrapper, right?
15:18	technomancy	rasmusto: uh no idea; I just searched and clicked on the top hit
15:18	bitemyapp	sritchie: what version of clojurescript?
15:18	technomancy	=)
15:18	bitemyapp	gf3: and have you seen this error when running lein cljsbuild? - Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: reader/alias-map in this context
15:18	sritchie	[org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1934"]
15:18	rasmusto	technomancy: there's a file called apihijack.cpp, I think this wraps directx
15:18	sritchie	[org.clojure/clojure "1.5.1"]
15:18	sritchie	bitemyapp: okay, I'll go absorb the routing business -
15:18	bitemyapp	1934 seems to work, 1978 broke my stuff.
15:19	bitemyapp	sritchie: thanks!
15:19	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:19	technomancy	rasmusto: so probably not useful from the perspective of a WM
15:19	gf3	bitemyapp: I haven't seen that before, no
15:19	technomancy	since it probably assumes the hardware drivers are present
15:19	gf3	bitemyapp: re: Google Closure, is it just (.setEnabled)?
15:19	rasmusto	yeah, I think this is suited for wrapping existing dx games
15:19	sritchie	bitemyapp: so, it seems like the short of it is that the routing allows the JS to stop certain side effects from registering callbacks before certain URIs load
15:19	bitemyapp	gf3: I dunno, I've only done pure JS.
15:19	sritchie	(and unregisters them when you leave those URIs)
15:19	bitemyapp	and very little Closure.
15:19	Bronsa	bitemyapp: make sure you are using tools.reader 0.7.10
15:20	gf3	bitemyapp: Yes, just confirmed, it's .setEnabled
15:20	gf3	http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/class_goog_history_Html5History.html
15:20	bitemyapp	gf3: oh no, I'm asking a more generic question than that, what's the page load trigger for fire off routing?
15:20	bitemyapp	gf3: you know, like jQuery's $.ready
15:21	rasmusto	technomancy: leave it up to the community: http://hwahba.com/ibex/files/ibex-video-two.png
15:21	rasmusto	technomancy: https://bitbucket.org/druidsbane/ibex/overview
15:21	gf3	bitemyapp: Oh shit, I dunno, I just throw stuff at the end of where I need it (e.g.: body end)
15:22	rasmusto	now I can watch blender demos inside of vr in a quake 3 deathmatch arena
15:22	bitemyapp	gf3: errr. like you just call the cljs function at the end of the body in a script block to start the app?
15:23	technomancy	rasmusto: http://openhmd.net/
15:23	gf3	bitemyapp: Yeah, right at the top of your "core" module
15:24	bitemyapp	Bronsa: that fixed it, thank you!
15:28	rasmusto	technomancy: ah cool. It has quaternion math in it so I assume it works well
15:42	sritchie	bitemyapp: did you see that last Q I had? just want to make sure I've got this down -
15:43	sritchie	I'm thinking of if, say, I generate similar forms in two different parts of the app
15:43	sritchie	but I want to apply different validation logic to each
15:44	sritchie	bitemyapp: it sounds like you're suggesting using routing to basically namespace the registered callback functions I use
15:44	sritchie	bitemyapp: alternatively, if there were some token (or if I could get at the URI somehow), I could stick both the URI AND the event data onto my core.async channel
15:45	sritchie	bitemyapp: and then have each local core.async event loop filter out events that it cares about
15:45	sritchie	bitemyapp: is that off base?
15:50	sritchie	I just got this error with cljsbuild, strangely: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: reader-types$indexing-push-back-reader
15:55	Bronsa	sritchie: sigh, cljs requires tools.reader 0.7.10, you have an older version on your classpath
15:56	staafl	say I have a bunch of helper functions, what's a good way to nest them inside the driver func?
15:57	sritchie	Bronsa: saw your note and updated
15:57	sritchie	thanks!
15:58	Bronsa	np
15:59	gtrak	staafl: let, letfn, if you need to pass them around, a map maybe?
16:00	staafl	gtrak, thanks :-) letfn seems a bit unreadable to me, but maybe i'm just a rookie
16:01	staafl	and it's a bit of a chore to paste the helper definitions into the binding vector
16:01	gtrak	letfn's got a specific use-case that isn't obvious at first glance. fn can take a symbol to refer to itself, and letfn will make those visible to every function in the scope.
16:01	staafl	since I tend to write them separately for REPL testing, before merging into a the final function
16:02	amalloy	staafl: you can also just choose to not make the functions local, but put them into the namespace (private, if you like)
16:02	gtrak	staafl: with let, you simply remove the de and leave the fn :-)
16:02	yeoj___	if i start a development web server with lein ring server should i be able to connect to it with vim-fireplace? Is there a repl there?
16:03	gtrak	though you have to move the name araound
16:03	yeoj___	i'm having problems connecting
16:03	staafl	amalloy, hmm... is there an analogy to the revealing module pattern?
16:03	staafl	i.e. you surround a bunch of definitions in a scope, and only export some of them
16:05	gtrak	staafl: JS has a module pattern because JS doesn't have modules. Namespaces and defn- are enough for anything.
16:06	gtrak	and they're required for niceties like autocompletion. I haven't ever really passed a bag of functions around in clojure.
16:07	staafl	gtrak, got it, thanks
16:08	noncom	hi, anyone familiar with graphics2d in seesaw ?
16:10	noncom	if i have a BufferedImage, the screenshot taken with Robot , how do I cut a rectangle from it and paste it into a Graphics2D on my apps frame?
16:10	noncom	i mean, what is the best seesaw way?
16:10	mdrogalis	You know what would be a great Twitter acount? @IrrelevantRichHickeyQuotes
16:16	xeqi	"Does anyone know how to make a line connect to a thing and stick?"
16:19	mdrogalis	Heh.
16:21	gfredericks	is there a name for (fn [f & gs] (fn [arg] (apply f (map #(% arg) gs))))?
16:22	justin_smith	make the map a mapv and then it has a hidden juxt in there
16:22	dobry-den	ztellman: In Gloss, I have a `header` that correctly encodes the body when the header byte is 0xfd, 0xfe, and 0xff. But is there a way to use the header itself as the body if it's not one of those 3 values?
16:22	stuartsierra	gfredericks: juxt
16:22	ztellman	dobry-den: header->body is a function, so you can have the body be whatever you want
16:22	ztellman	including a static value
16:23	justin_smith	gfredericks: (fn [f & gs] (fn [arg] (apply f ((apply juxt gs) arg))))
16:37	uvtc	noncom, Sorry, no idea. Maybe post to the seesaw ML?
16:40	rhg135	has anybody here ever used cljs on node?
16:40	noncom	uvtc: well, i already figured it out :) I just use one java method call, (.drawImage ...) and seesaw example on canvas does such things too, so i think it is ok. at least if it would be smthing like (draw-image ...), it would not change much :D
16:40	justin_smith	noncom: not sure what is best, but the cropping can be done with the methods of BufferedImage
16:41	noncom	yeah, i know java side well, i think i'll just go with it, since seesaw does not look like it has much to image editing... but i'll go look docs and source more
16:41	dnolen	rhg135: ohpauleez has, Bodil, and a few others - CLJS Node support in general could use some love though
16:41	rhg135	i'm wondering if it's possible to run a repl
16:42	rhg135	i already have the logic down but cba to write an ui
16:43	dnolen	rhg135: Bodil maintains a node-repl, https://github.com/bodil/cljs-noderepl
16:43	gf3	technomancy: A word of warning, I tweet mostly BS and ill-thought out jokes
16:43	rhg135	i saw that but i don't see how to load my code in that repl
16:44	coventry	Shocking. I go to twitter for the solid, well-considered content. I'm saddened to see it dragged down like that.
16:44	technomancy	gf3: I mostly take that as a given on twitter.
16:46	dnolen	rhg135: what do you mean load code?
16:46	rhg135	dnolen, i already have some code in clojurescript that works
16:47	dnolen	rhg135: I just don't know what you're asking.
16:47	staafl	how can I pinpoint the compilation error in the REPL?
16:47	staafl	"Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol" doesn't tell me much
16:48	rhg135	i basically want to run a repl from my code
16:49	amalloy	staafl: that's what the line numbers are for. although, the most common cause of that particular exception is probably using (:require [foo.bar :refer baz]) instead of (:require [foo.bar :refer [baz]])
16:49	staafl	amalloy, thanks. the line numbers increase every time i paste a snippet and are impossible to follow
16:50	dnolen	rhg135: run a CLJS REPL from the CLJS code itself? not possible.
16:51	rhg135	dnolen, well in the broser you can emulate it by listening for connections
16:51	Jarda	dnolen: hi! May I disturb you a bit
16:52	dnolen	Jarda: just ask your question if you have one :)
16:52	bitemyapp	gf3: btw your halloween costume was a scream.
16:53	gf3	bitemyapp: Haaaah
16:53	Jarda	dnolen: I tried to add source map compilation to my cljsbuild configuration, but am having problems with the paths
16:53	bitemyapp	gf3: I loved the Fifth Element, the multi-pass thing made me giggle.
16:53	gf3	bitemyapp: My favourite shot: http://instagram.com/p/f-pD6TCauX/
16:53	bitemyapp	good lord LOL
16:54	gf3	Ahahahahhaa
16:55	Jarda	dnolen: I addes :ouput-to "resources/public/js/app.js", :source-map "resources/public/js/app.js.map" and it generated the comment to app.js with resources/public/js.. in the path
16:55	rhg135	dnolen, also i guess running a repl would work, but could i require my file?
16:55	Jarda	dnolen: so the browser of course didn't find as the http path would be /js/app.js.map
16:55	dnolen	rhg135: don't know but I would think cljs-node-repl can require files just like the Rhino one
16:56	dnolen	Jarda: don't specify a path for :source-map, just the name of the file.
16:56	Jarda	dnolen: I thought I did that too, then the file got generated to project root
16:57	rhg135	ah
16:57	rhg135	lemme try
16:57	dnolen	Jarda: feel free to file a ticket then, patch welcome - I got a pretty long list of things on my plate at this point as far as patches.
16:58	Jarda	dnolen: yeah I just saw your tweet about a new cljsbuild release so I thought I would ask if it's something I've misunderstood or a possible bug
16:58	Jarda	I'll come up with a demo-project to attach to the issue
16:58	dnolen	Jarda: bugs most likely, there's a lot of new stuff around source maps and people are just now seriously trying to use it.
16:58	dnolen	Jarda: sure, but seriously look at the source code, fix it submit a patch.
16:58	dnolen	CLJS is not rocket science, the source maps path stuff is simple stuff.
16:59	Jarda	dnolen: ok, I'll promise to look at it (tomorrow)
16:59	bitemyapp	dnolen: the preferred terminology is "rocket surgery"
16:59	dnolen	Jarda: thanks, much appreciated and I'll apply it quickly if I get something.
16:59	bitemyapp	ever taken a scalpel to a warhead? Nerve-wracking.
16:59	Jarda	dnolen: so the correct place to look is in cljsbuild I guess?
16:59	Jarda	or clojurescript core
17:00	justin_smith	ever try to troubleshoot the detonator on a brainstem?
17:00	dnolen	Jarda: no it's a CLJS compiler issue, look into closure.clj, we'll also need to fix compiler.clj, just grep for sourceMappingURL, there are two places to change the logic.
17:01	Jarda	dnolen: ok cool, I'll do it
17:10	rhg135	nope :c
17:11	rhg135	i may have to redo this in jvm clojure
17:11	rhg135	which im fine with but the startup delay is a problem for client apps
17:12	rhg135	also the ram usage
17:19	hlship_	where's the best place to discuss multi-module lein projects?
17:27	stuartsierra	hlship_: #despair
17:27	hlship_	... well, that's why I use Gradle for my big, big project.
17:28	llasram	geez
17:28	technomancy	afaik, "multi-module" is not a well-defined term. can you be more specific?
17:28	llasram	hlship_: Have you tried lein-sub? https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-sub
17:29	hlship_	well we have (with tests) about 1400 source files, 280K lines of code, in about 47 (mostly, small) modules
17:29	technomancy	in a single codebase?
17:30	hlship_	yes
17:30	hlship_	that is, builds with a single command
17:30	hyPiRion	Of Clojure?
17:30	hlship_	each module is AOT compiled individually, and has own dependencies
17:30	hlship_	yes this is 99% Clojure
17:30	technomancy	well lein might be able to provide some support, but at that point it's going to be a band-aid for deeper architectural issues
17:30	hlship_	perhaps the biggest Clojure project around
17:30	llasram	hlship_: Let me guess -- a starship?
17:30	hlship_	Part of my job now is to remove and simplify a lot of unnecessary code
17:30	hlship_	It's a credit card switch
17:31	hyPiRion	Ah, I was about to guess that it was the healthcare.gov system rewritten in Clojure.
17:32	technomancy	hyPiRion: ahaha
17:32	tbaldridge	hyPiRion: nah....that'd only be about 10K lines of code.
17:32	hlship_	No, there's necessary complexity here. A switch has to be able to freely translate between all kinds of binary data formats used by various banks.
17:32	hlship_	I'm actually in the middle of reworking the internals of it to use core.async.
17:32	hlship_	And in fact, we'll probably stick with Gradle for the meantime.
17:32	hyPiRion	hlship_: yeah, that was more of a joke about healthcare.gov, not your system
17:32	technomancy	hlship_: lein-sub, private mvn repos, and checkouts are typically the building blocks upon which you structure systems which span multiple project.clj files
17:33	hlship_	But I'm also spinning off some of the code as open-source and for those parts I use lein.
17:33	technomancy	difficult to say more without knowing specifics about what you're finding tricky
17:33	hlship_	But Twixt, for example, should be a number of "al la carte" modules that I'd prefer to build, version, and deploy as a unit.
17:33	tbaldridge	yeah, I've worked on projects that break the software into 20 different project.clj modules that each have their own release numbers, I was pretty happy with that.
17:34	sritchie	any austin users?
17:34	sritchie	I'm seeing stackoverflowerror at (cemerick.austin/repl-env)
17:34	sritchie	StackOverflowError java.lang.ClassLoader.getResource (ClassLoader.java:1134)
17:34	justin_smith	tbaldridge: all in one repo?
17:34	hlship_	talbridge: I think you forgot your <sarcasm> tag
17:34	tbaldridge	nope, 1 repo per project
17:34	justin_smith	tbaldridge: I bet a lot of work went into keeping the apis between them stable then>?
17:35	tbaldridge	true modules should be modular enough that a release of one module shouldn't take a massive rewrite of all the other modules.
17:35	hlship_	Part of what I'm looking for in multiple projects is information sharing between the parent project.clj and the individual modules.
17:35	technomancy	hlship_: for a long time there was no good programmatic way to manipulate defproject forms (preserving comments, etc) making automated version bumps difficult
17:35	hiredman	a project object model
17:35	technomancy	now we have sjacket, but no one's done the plumbing to apply it to version bumps yet
17:35	technomancy	I don't expect it would be difficult
17:36	hlship_	Generally not a massive rewrite, but I want to avoid the Hibernate style versioning where you need a complex chart to guess at which versions form a compatible whole.
17:36	hlship_	In the Tapestry world, I'm quite happy to change the version number across all modules, including ones that have not in any way changed, just so I can use a single verison number for a consistent system.
17:36	uvtc	Is there a standard function to print to stderr? Or do I do: `(binding [out err] (println ...)`?
17:36	hlship_	And identify that all of them were built and tested together.
17:36	technomancy	znDuff: "if you have to get kicked in the shins, moccasins are great for that"
17:37	hlship_	Gradle has a kind of search path mechanism, where configuration data from a parent build script is accessible in the children.
17:37	hlship_	So I specify the version number in exactly one place.
17:37	hlship_	I also can do a lot of the shared dependency configuration at the master project level.
17:38	technomancy	hlship_: you can do that with shared project middleware; I think pallet uses that
17:38	hiredman	hlship_: I'm not sure I follow that, if you are deploying a service the output of the build is a tarball with all dependencies ready to run, if you are building a library you depend on a bit and get what you need from maven repos dependency wise, what do you need the chart for?
17:38	hlship_	Interesting; I'll take a peek at their source then. Good examples are enough.
17:40	hlship_	hiredman: In the Hibernate world (as a terrific anti-example) when you upgrade one piece, say hibernate-search, you have to do a lot of hunting around to determine what other mix of dependencies actually work together. It's a mess.
17:40	technomancy	searching up for the version number sounds very iffy once it crosses git repo boundaries
17:41	technomancy	I would hate to encourage projects that can't be built from a fresh checkout
17:41	hlship_	znDuff: I hate Maven with a passion and love Gradle, though it can be occasionally infuriating.
17:42	hlship_	technomancy: You are correct; I would not want to coordinate version numbers across Git repos; but if I'm developing several closely related layers (such as Twixt, for example) I would prefer to have a single Git repo and single version number for the different layers that can be composed.
17:43	hiredman	hlship_: well hibernate is just horrible, a lot of old style java stuff is pretty bad about versions
17:43	technomancy	if you are asking for project info to come from somewhere other than the codebase you're going to have to give up determinism or that
17:43	hiredman	I can never figure out versions on jboss projects
17:43	technomancy	but inside one big repo seems reasonable
17:43	hiredman	but if it is your project you can do better
17:43	hlship_	technomancy: I think we're in agreement there.
17:44	znDuff	hlship_: I would need to spend a significant amount of time learning Groovy before I could give Gradle a genuinely fair shake.
17:44	hlship_	znDuff: That's a discussion for some other time/place.
17:44	znDuff	hlship_: ...in trying to use it thus far, it's been completely full of spooky action at a distance, where it wasn't clear from reading the code what given action a line would have.
17:45	technomancy	a central tenet of lein is that task execution should be a basically-pure function of the codebase, the (hopefully append-only) state of the referenced repositories, and CLI input
17:45	hlship_	I've done everything from GNU Makefiles, Ant, Maven 1 - 3, Rake, Lein and Gradle.
17:45	znDuff	(and reading the bytecode Gradle generated... shudder)
17:45	technomancy	the more you diverge from pure functions, the more hidden gotchas are going to come back to bite you eventually
17:45	ToBeReplaced	fwiw i found that :pedantic? :abort and every-subproject-gets-its-own-project-clj to be a smooth combination
17:46	hlship_	For most Clojure projects, Lein is perfect. But past a certain point, Gradle is my go-to choice.
17:46	ToBeReplaced	that plus lein ancient makes it easy to see when a subproject has been updated and when i've got a potentially breaking dependency mismatch
17:47	technomancy	this is a big controversy at work where some people want to introduce build config that would result in breaking the functional aspect of input -> artifacts
17:47	technomancy	(mostly due to rails)
17:47	znDuff	hlship_: My title is "release engineer"; I've worked on a comparable number of build systems, and gradle is actually the only one that gets me quite -that- frustrated (though I'm pretty thoroughly unhappy with Ivy right this minute).
17:48	znDuff	...but yes, not the place and time.
17:48	hlship_	Well, to each his own. I find Gradle lets me do what I need and largely gets out of the way. Also, it is actively maintained by non-lunatics, which puts it way ahead of Maven. And they eat their own dogfood.
17:50	technomancy	hlship_: would be interested in hearing whether you find project middleware suitable for your purposes
17:50	hlship_	Anyway, the thing for me to consider is if I really need coordinated version numbers. I prefer them.
17:50	AlienCat	hello
17:50	znDuff	hlship_: shrug. Compared to Ivy, Maven is -extremely- actively maintained. They've merged a few patches I submitted just over the last few weeks.
17:50	AlienCat	the counterclockwise thing
17:50	technomancy	it would certainly be easier with programmatic modifications to project.clj
17:50	AlienCat	is it supposed to work?
17:50	znDuff	hlship_: (...mind you, the need for those was unfortunate -- one of them was a fix for a shell injection vulnerability; sigh)
17:51	hiredman	hlship_: so how many common lisps are in 280k of clojure?
17:51	technomancy	been hoping someone would bash that out in a plugin, but maybe it's time to think about putting that into lein proper
17:51	technomancy	AlienCat: no, it's a trap designed to trick IDE users into using scala
17:51	technomancy	of course it's supposed to work
17:52	technomancy	~anyone
17:52	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:53	technomancy	znDuff: how do you have a shell injection vulnerability in a tool designed for arbitrary code execution?
17:53	technomancy	genuine curiosity =)
17:53	znDuff	technomancy: it could execute code embedded in filenames.
17:54	technomancy	huh, interesting
17:55	technomancy	difficult to imagine a scenario in which an attacker could control filenames but not bytecode to run, but better safe than sorry
17:55	AlienCat	well, "Waiting for new REPL process ack timed out" does not tell you much right? I roll with that example project and debugged it and all I got was that message
17:55	AlienCat	Just a plain "Clojure project"
17:55	technomancy	AlienCat: perhaps it is a Zen message designed to communicate your lack of patience
17:57	technomancy	given that the primary maintainer resides in France, the mailing list would probably be more fruitful than IRC
17:57	AlienCat	I do not like mailing lists :'(
17:58	technomancy	you could try again at a more UTC-friendly time
17:59	znDuff	technomancy: I can certainly think of cases where an attacker could control code that would be run at execution-time but not at build-time absent the vulnerability.
17:59	znDuff	technomancy: ...and if you're building code to be run in a sandbox...
18:00	AlienCat	I live in the UTC zone, well I might give google groups a shot
18:00	AlienCat	well actually, I even think counterclockwice have an own google group
18:01	clows	AlienCat: http://bit.ly/16Ifijx (google groups) maybe? seems a bit old but who knows
18:01	sritchie	bitemyapp: what are your thoughts on distinguishing dev mode from prod with a global atom?
18:02	hiredman	gross
18:02	sritchie	what's the best way to do this?
18:02	sritchie	hiredman: here's my goal - cljsbuild is generating either gen-debug.js or gen.js
18:02	sritchie	and I want to include the proper one
18:02	coventry	znDuff: What kind of problems are you working on? Sounds interesting.
18:02	technomancy	sritchie: prod vs dev is like browser-sniffing. check for specific feature config, not for one wide setting.
18:03	AlienCat	wait a minute, isn't google groups mailing lists? damn I tricked myself
18:03	hiredman	sritchie: carica is the config library we use at work, and I like how it works
18:03	technomancy	carica is great; check in dev defaults into dev-resources/config.clj and prod settings into resources/config.clj
18:03	hiredman	you have some set of default configs, which then your deployment can override by writing other configs to the classpath
18:03	sritchie	oh, wait, what am I doing, I've already got environ in here
18:03	sritchie	nice
18:05	cemerick	sritchie: taking off, feel free to file an issue if you're still seeing the stackoverflow
18:05	sritchie	cemerick: yeah, it happens when I try to reconnect
18:05	sritchie	got a NPE in a diff setting -
18:05	sritchie	I can't figure out where it's coming from
18:05	sritchie	but I'll keep pushing
18:06	sritchie	technomancy: okay, awesome, carica is good. do you use carica and environ together?
18:06	bitemyapp	sritchie: very gross.
18:06	sritchie	haha, okay
18:06	bitemyapp	sritchie: I use environ, no carica.
18:06	znDuff	coventry: I'm at Indeed -- the job search engine. Big picture re: things we have going on, there's a blog at https://engineering.indeed.com/blog/
18:06	bitemyapp	sritchie: configuration is actually something I've spent a lot of time perfecting, let me put together a sanitized gist so you can see what I do.
18:07	sritchie	nice! thanks, bitemyapp
18:07	coventry	znDuff: Thanks.
18:08	technomancy	sritchie: I haven't worked on anything needing more than a handful of config vars in a while; so far just environ.
18:09	technomancy	environ is obviously bad if you need anything more complicated than a single level of string->string mapping
18:09	sritchie	technomancy: but it seems clean to, say, use environ to flag PROD or DEV, and then have "prod" and "dev" maps w/ settings in carica, for example
18:10	ToBeReplaced	hm, carica is interesting -- idk when i'd use it though tbh
18:10	technomancy	sritchie: no, I would advise against that
18:10	sritchie	yeah?
18:10	technomancy	sritchie: if you use uberjars you don't need to do anything to flag prod
18:10	technomancy	the fact of being an uberjar means that it can't see dev-resources
18:10	bitemyapp	sritchie: now I want you to keep in mind that this is a fairly "evolved" config that has grown organically, so it's not as simple as something in a freshly made application
18:10	bitemyapp	sritchie: https://gist.github.com/bitemyapp/7223007
18:11	technomancy	if you use lein in production, you should use profiles
18:11	ToBeReplaced	i pass through jvm-opts to the :dev and :test profiles and pass them through on command line in production
18:11	sritchie	does lein load dev-resources after resources, always?
18:11	hiredman	ToBeReplaced: it is pulled out of a largish clojure app at work, it is all we use for configuration, but it is sort of of tied to how we deploy stuff using chef
18:11	bitemyapp	sritchie: a few things to note, they're not defs, they're all functions.
18:11	technomancy	sritchie: `lein with-profiles production trampoline run ...`
18:11	sritchie	yes
18:11	hiredman	but we have lots and lots and lots of configuration
18:11	bitemyapp	sritchie: it's just a config namespace with a primary function, "get-config"
18:11	technomancy	sritchie: dev-resources always "wins" if the dev profile is active
18:11	hiredman	"constants" all tend to end up in config
18:11	sritchie	and dev is active by default
18:11	sritchie	okay
18:12	bitemyapp	sritchie: most of the fallbacks "(and ...)" are for standard dev environment stuff.
18:12	sritchie	technomancy: I'm on Heroku now, and using that method
18:12	sritchie	bitemyapp: taking a look
18:12	technomancy	sritchie: cool. I recently made it a lot easier to use uberjars on heroku, so check that out if you start anything new or need to futz with it.
18:12	technomancy	there aer a lot fewer ways to screw things up with uberjars
18:13	sritchie	technomancy: interesting, checking out the getting started now
18:13	bitemyapp	sritchie: https://gist.github.com/bitemyapp/7223050
18:13	bitemyapp	sritchie: that's the environment file that gets sourced in the upstart init before running the jar, and the init script itself.
18:14	ToBeReplaced	hiredman: are the constants unique to each app/machine pair? i'm wondering when that approach is better than picking up values from a db
18:14	ToBeReplaced	our deployment is small, so we basically just pass things like where are the logs, where is the database, etc.
18:14	sritchie	technomancy: so the default script now runs uberjar
18:14	hiredman	ToBeReplaced: it depends, I think you could pull it form a db, but they are static, so why?
18:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: the java -jar is a vanilla lein uberjar.
18:15	bitemyapp	anybody interested in deploying Clojure apps really should look at those two gists I just posted.
18:15	sritchie	sure, but I see Running: lein uberjar in the heroku example,
18:15	bitemyapp	that's a lot of how I do it.
18:15	hiredman	we've actually talked very briefly about some kind of zookeeper backend for carica
18:15	bitemyapp	hiredman: if I used zookeeper, it would just replace the dev.env/prod.env files.
18:16	hiredman	very briefly and I doubt it will go anywhere
18:16	bitemyapp	and then I'd add a signal to trip the memoized data and re-load.
18:16	technomancy	sritchie: it runs uberjar if :uberjar-name is present
18:16	sritchie	okay, nice
18:17	ToBeReplaced	hiredman: yeah, we talked about using zookeeper and decided to delay b/c we don't need it, but that certainly influenced the decision to do lookup via database instead of passing in the config
18:17	technomancy	because you don't want the default uberjar name (which contains the version) since that would mean changing your Procfile for every version bump
18:17	sritchie	yup
18:17	ToBeReplaced	on the flipside it kinda sucks that our whole infrastructure has a db dep on startup
18:19	sritchie	for creating a production env, if you're relying on environment variables,
18:19	sritchie	technomancy: is the preferred Heroku Way to keep a script in resources and source that?
18:19	sritchie	before calling java -jar
18:20	technomancy	sritchie: not sure what you're asking
18:20	technomancy	don't check production config into your repo
18:20	sritchie	but isn't that the carica stlye/
18:20	sritchie	style*?
18:20	hiredman	no
18:21	technomancy	sritchie: oh yeah, you can't really use carica sensibly on heroku
18:21	ToBeReplaced	hiredman: maybe add a note in the "Mind the Classpath" section stating that resource dirs in the :dev profile will match before resources?
18:21	hiredman	with carica we have dev/defaults checked in, and chef writes production stuff on servers in the right plae on the classpath to override defaults
18:21	sritchie	okay
18:21	sritchie	technomancy: okay, so the idea is to set the production env variable by variable using heroku config:add,
18:21	technomancy	well, I mean you maybe could rig something up, but you lose the benefits of carica if everything's sourced from the env
18:22	sritchie	and then keep the dev environment variables on some local script that everyone sources on their dev machines
18:22	hiredman	ToBeReplaced: the style technomancy mentioned isn't really the style we use it in, we don't have config in :dev-resources and :resources, we just have config in :resources
18:23	technomancy	hiredman: but you would if you used uberjars, right? you just do that because you have a fancy tarball deploy pipeline.
18:23	hiredman	production stuff is written by chef to a place that our launcher scripts put in the right place on the classpath to override whatever is built in to the jar
18:23	technomancy	oh right; actual prod secrets wouldn't go in resources/
18:23	hiredman	technomancy: speaking of fancy tarballs, danlarkin is working on a lein template which gives you a lot of safe style stuff out of the box
18:23	technomancy	cool
18:24	justin_smith	I just saw this danlarkin project today: https://github.com/danlarkin/clojuredongs
18:24	sritchie	bitemyapp: the config looks great, thanks for the gists
18:24	sritchie	one more Q, for anyone using cljsbuild… if one enables the cljsbuild hooks,
18:25	sritchie	it's unclear how to signal which cljsbuild profile should be built
18:25	sritchie	on "lein compile", say
18:25	bitemyapp	I haven't figured out how the cljsbuild profile ids work either.
18:25	sritchie	probably makes more sense to just call "lein cljsbuild once prod" on heroku before java -jar
18:26	technomancy	the hooks are pretty "magic"; I think they're going to start documeting a more explicit approach
18:26	technomancy	sritchie: but you can add cljsbuild to :prep-tasks to get it to run for every jar run
18:26	technomancy	if you don't use hooks
18:27	sritchie	oh, nice
18:27	sritchie	:prep-tasks [["cljsbuild" "once" "prod"]], for example
18:27	technomancy	the hooks are just "here are a bunch of common things you can add if you want to trade transparency for previty"
18:27	technomancy	brevity
18:30	tbaldridge	dnolen: ping
18:31	dnolen	tbaldridge: pong
18:31	tbaldridge	I'm using reify inside a function in CLJS, if I name my namespace "main", CLJS tries to write code that does this: typeof main.main.t15920
18:31	tbaldridge	That then fails do to main.main not existing.
18:32	tbaldridge	this is with 1978
18:32	dnolen	tbaldridge: sounds a variant of the ns/shadowing issues we've had in the past
18:34	dnolen	tbaldridge: or maybe not, looking at the reify macro I don't see anything obvious that would cause that.
18:35	dnolen	tbaldridge: gist?
18:36	tbaldridge	I even get a console warning "Use of undeclared VAR main/main"
18:36	tbaldridge	gist inbound...
18:36	dnolen	tbaldridge: thx
18:37	muhoo	justin_smith: well at least that demonstrates the reader literal api
18:39	tbaldridge	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/halgari/7223421
18:40	justin_smith	muhoo: yeah, it actually does a good job of that
18:41	dnolen	tbaldridge: k seems like a single segment namespace issue
18:42	tbaldridge	dnolen: yep, changed it to main-ns.baz and it works now
18:43	muhoo	justin_smith: "Truly, this is what the new reader literals were for. The uuid and date stuff was just to sell it to a gullible public." <-- best comment
18:43	dnolen	tbaldridge: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-646
18:43	muhoo	i was surprised to look and see it's just one line of code to create a reader literal.
18:44	tbaldridge	dnolen: lol, thanks! I'll send you all my bug reports in the future, and make you fill out the JIRA stuff :-P
18:44	dnolen	tbaldridge: heh, lots of bugs reports in the past two of days ... the danger of making of things easy!
18:45	justin_smith	muhoo: iirc where it gets messy is shadowing of that resource, making it hard for a library to provide reader literals maybe?
18:46	justin_smith	some kind of merging mechanism would make it easier
18:47	hiredman	justin_smith: the reader literal already reads all the data_reader.clj's on the classpath and merges the maps
18:47	hiredman	reader literal bits
18:48	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6910-L6955
18:51	derfury	Hey guys, so am I mistaken or do functions need to be defined "before/above" the calling function?
18:51	derfury	That seems a little strange considering it's compiled
18:51	znDuff	derfury: it's single-pass compilation
18:51	coventry	,(doc declare)
18:51	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
18:51	derfury	ahhhh
18:51	znDuff	derfury: if it weren't that way, you wouldn't have parity between REPL usage and AOT.
18:52	znDuff	derfury: ...ie. things would work fine in AOT compilation and fail in the REPL. That's no fun for anyone.
18:52	derfury	but I can use delare to setup the function name, and then defn the same name later on?
18:52	derfury	I guess like C and .H files?
18:52	znDuff	derfury: Yup.
18:52	derfury	kk
18:52	hiredman	it depends how you use the name
18:52	derfury	hiredman, how so?
18:53	hiredman	if you don't try and take the value of the name between declartion and definition you'll be fine
18:53	derfury	sick!
18:53	hiredman	(declare f) (def x f) (defn f [] 1) ;; not good
18:54	hiredman	(def x f) is taking the value f and giving the name x, but you have not given f a value yet
18:54	derfury	hmmm
18:54	hiredman	(declare f) (def g [] f) (defn f [] 1) ;; fine
18:55	hiredman	when the function named by g is run, it will take the value of f, but by the time (g) is run, (defn f [] 1) should have run
18:56	TEttinger	hiredman: defn g
18:56	hiredman	right
18:56	derfury	so really, there is no good way to basically keep it indifferent to the order functions are defined in ?
18:57	hiredman	correct
18:57	TEttinger	functions will kinda work
18:57	TEttinger	functions won't check the body until called
18:57	coventry	derfury: Why do you want to?
18:57	hiredman	defing is side effectually, mutating what is effectivelly a a big map
18:57	derfury	It's mostly me hating having to keep track of what is defined first
18:58	derfury	too used to scala
18:58	hiredman	right, scala/java/etc are very different because they have very distinct compilation / runtime phases
18:58	derfury	I also prefer to organize my files based on things other than sequence of reference
18:58	hiredman	and the compilation unit is large
18:58	derfury	true
18:58	sritchie	bitemyapp: typo in benv, btw
18:59	hiredman	in clojure the compilation unit is a single toplevel expression
18:59	derfury	I understand the trade-offs, I'm mostly just double checking, and then whining unecessarily :P
18:59	sritchie	bitemyapp: benv is calling into kenv
18:59	sritchie	not sure if that's just a byproduct of the transfer-to-gist
18:59	hiredman	(def x 1) is a hope compilation unit
18:59	hiredman	whole
18:59	bitemyapp	sritchie: nah that was legit. Thanks.
19:00	bitemyapp	sritchie: t'was an unused code path, I never fail to provide a fallback.
19:00	bitemyapp	which raises the question of whether I should've even offered that code path to begin with.
19:00	bitemyapp	This is where I mutter darkly about type systems.
19:09	sritchie	:)
19:17	bpr	does anyone else have issues with the cljs compiler running out of memory when generating source maps?
19:19	dnolen	bpr: wouldn't be surprised - but how much memory are you giving the process?
19:20	bpr	i have :jvm-opts ["-Xmx8g"] in my project.clj
19:20	bpr	though i'm not sure if that affects the lein process doing the building or my code's process
19:21	bpr	or both
19:21	bpr	i would think that 8g would be enough?
19:21	bpr	btw, i'm using [org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1978"]
19:23	justin_smith	bpr: one gotcha is running out of permgen rather than heap space - just a shot in the dark, but if heap is 8g and permgen is only 32m it is still easy to run out of space because of how clojure uses classes
19:24	bpr	ah, good point
19:24	justin_smith	but you should be able to see from the message whether it is permgen or heap that ran out
19:24	bpr	it's claiming heap space is the issue
19:24	bpr	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
19:25	justin_smith	I spent way too long trying to figure out why my app was crashing and dying despite high mem limits until I figured out that permgen thing
19:25	justin_smith	OK, so its not that then
19:26	dnolen	bpr: do you have stack trace showing where it failed?
19:26	dnolen	bpr: also some information like how big your project is would be useful to know.
19:27	bpr	dnolen: sure: https://www.refheap.com/20272
19:27	bpr	it's pretty small. I'll get a line count for you
19:29	dnolen	bpr: seems unusual for a small project
19:29	dnolen	bpr: also those :jvm-opts probably need a ^:replace
19:30	hyPiRion	no, not with latest leiningen
19:30	bpr	dnolen: i've tried with and w/o ^:replace
19:30	hyPiRion	although it's smart to stick it in there
19:30	dnolen	bpr: you should also try with explicit JVM opts
19:30	bpr	line count is 164
19:31	dnolen	bpr: best to watch the process to confirm that memory usage is actually exploding.
19:31	coventry	bpr: You should be able to figure out if whether any java process is taking 8g before it dies by looking at the output of top.
19:31	dnolen	bpr: the number of dependencies also matter of course
19:31	dnolen	bpr: as well as the level of optimizations
19:31	bpr	true true
19:31	bpr	it's just enlivee 2.0
19:31	bpr	whitespace
19:31	lambda-stu	bpr: enfocus
19:31	bpr	yes
19:32	bpr	enfocus, lambda-stu thanks
19:32	dnolen	bpr: well from the stack trace it's obviously choking on source maps.
19:32	bpr	dnolen: ok
19:33	dnolen	bpr: just need more information, is your project available anywhere?
19:33	bpr	dnolen: i'll paste it
19:33	bpr	fyi, it does build w/o source maps
19:34	dnolen	bpr: it simpler for me if you just publish the project to github other wise too may possibilities for mistakes
19:34	bpr	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/20273
19:34	bpr	saddly, the project is closed source :(
19:35	dnolen	bpr: gotcha, then not much I can do other then tell you take a look at source_map.clj, fire up YourKit and give me some ideas.
19:35	bpr	ok
19:36	bpr	thanks. I'll post to the google group then
19:36	bpr	I'm going to punt for now and work towards some other goals
19:36	bpr	thanks for your time though!
19:36	dnolen	bpr: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/source_map.clj#L155
19:40	dnolen	bpr: based on the stack trace it seems like the vectors gotten extremely large somehow - this seems unlikely to me, but maybe your dependencies are actually quite large?
19:41	bpr	dnolen: the only cljs dependency is enfocus 2.0.0
19:41	bpr	i'll check the dep tree on that
19:41	dnolen	bpr: other option would be to have the compiler report the size of the vector
19:41	bpr	enfocus just depends on domina and jsoup
19:42	dnolen	bpr: also wouldn't rule out that your lein memory settings are taking
19:42	lambda-stu	dnolen: another source map q if you don't mind - the links to clojurescript files in Chrome inspector seem to be missing the file:// protocol. am I missing a configuration setting maybe?
19:42	dnolen	lambda-stu: as far as I can tell not needed
19:42	lambda-stu	i.e. it looks for the cljs file in in localhost:3000/Users/...
19:43	dnolen	lambda-stu: this is because you are using a webserver? if so we need a patch for that.
19:43	dnolen	lambda-stu: a ticket already exists
19:44	dnolen	bpr: I just don't believe that the source map is generating a 8gig vector
19:44	bpr	yeah, it would be fairly shocking
19:47	lambda-stu	dnolen: yep, I see it now. thanks!
19:48	logic_prog	anyone here use clojure with hbase?
19:49	dnolen	bpr: building core.async now with source map with advanced, it's bigger than enfocus+domina
19:50	bpr	yeah i would imagine it is
19:50	dnolen	bpr: built fine
19:50	dnolen	e/ 1978
19:51	dnolen	with 1978
19:53	dnolen	bpr: and core.async generates a ridiculous amount of code, so I dunno.
19:53	bpr	k
19:53	bpr	thanks for looking into this for me
19:53	bpr	i appreciate it
19:53	dnolen	bpr: np
19:53	bpr	i'll get more data and post it to the google group
19:54	dnolen	bpr: thx much
19:54	sritchie	bitemyapp: okay, working great: https://gist.github.com/sritchie/8e425184bd226f510425
19:54	sritchie	added that too for testing
19:55	dnolen	bpr: just for kicks, also building with whitespace and pretty-printing, guaranteed to builded the largest source map
19:55	dnolen	s/builded/build
19:56	dnolen	bpr: worked fine
19:56	dnolen	bpr: the final source map is 688k
19:58	muhoo	sritchie: what's the use case for that?
19:59	sritchie	muhoo: I wanted to test that (with-env {:ring-env "prod"} (dev?) => false)
19:59	sritchie	muhoo: and I can't set environment properties from my emacs repl,
19:59	muhoo	ah
19:59	sritchie	so this was my solution/hack
20:00	muhoo	i've been just changing .lein-env and reloading environs.core ns
20:00	muhoo	which causes it to be re-read
20:01	dnolen	tbaldridge: fixed in master http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/85ac96e3e2de4a3598c1658f7c1de6cf88734d93
20:03	sritchie	bitemyapp: is that a timbre logging config?
20:03	sritchie	muhoo: that's what this does
20:03	sritchie	muhoo: I just wanted it to reset afterware
20:03	sritchie	afterward
20:03	muhoo	oh, ok, so that's why it's wrapped in a function
20:03	sritchie	yup
20:13	iwilcox	I have a really simple clojure script I'm running just as "clojure foo.clj". It does thready stuff and I'd like to add a watchdog that restarts it, ideally from within. Am I going to get into trouble if I make the watchdog's action (load-file file) ?
20:18	iwilcox	The script produces output which I'm writing to a file, and the UNIXy way would probably be to use monit to check the file's timestamp and restart, but it seems ugly to restart the JVM.
20:25	bpr	(= "foo")
20:31	sritchie	technomancy, I did have one Q for you -
20:32	sritchie	on Heroku, my app's slug size is pretty huge
20:32	sritchie	dpetrovics has the numbers, but it was a couple hundred MB, I think? with a far, far smaller uberjar size
20:33	technomancy	sritchie: it's possible ~/.m2 snuck in?
20:33	technomancy	can you check with `heroku run bash`?
20:33	sritchie	ah, interesting
20:33	sritchie	checking
20:34	dpetrovics	uberjar size was 35.6MB, slug size 149.1MB
20:34	technomancy	so the slug also includes a jdk
20:34	technomancy	but that's still too big
20:37	dpetrovics	just checked with heroku run bash, m2 IS in there, looks like the size is 98MB
20:37	technomancy	ah crap, ok
20:37	technomancy	I will take a look
20:38	dpetrovics	ok thanks!
20:38	ztellman	if a method with the same name is defined in two different interfaces, is there a way in deftype to denote which one I prefer?
20:38	ztellman	type-hinting the return method doesn't seem to work
20:41	amalloy	ztellman: "which one"? if it's the same name and the same type signature, they are the same method. i don't quite understand what construct you're talking about
20:41	ztellman	amalloy: cons in IPersistentCollection and cons in ISeq
20:41	ztellman	they have different return types
20:41	ztellman	as far as I can tell, which is being chosen at random
20:42	ztellman	which means that my tests fail sometimes
20:42	amalloy	ztellman: "chosen", as in...when you call it? like, your deftype impl contains code like (.cons this x)
20:42	amalloy	if so, you can (.cons ^ISeq this x)
20:42	ztellman	amalloy: chosen as in (deftype Foo [] ISeq IPersistentCollection (cons [_ x] ...))
20:43	ztellman	which interface is 'cons' implementing
20:44	patchwork	I have a lein template, and when it gets expanded all my pngs have been modified!
20:44	amalloy	ztellman: i think the jvm only lets it choose the most-specific one. is this really deftype, or one of the deftype-family macros in potemkin or something?
20:44	patchwork	They are all almost twice as large and corrupted (won't open)
20:44	ztellman	amalloy: really deftype
20:44	patchwork	But I am not calling the renderer on them
20:44	patchwork	anyone know why that would be happening?
20:44	ztellman	and IPersistentCollection and ISeq are dijoint
20:45	ztellman	the former is Seqable, not ISeq
20:45	ztellman	disjoint*
20:45	patchwork	looking through the source it doesn't seem like anything would be doing that
20:45	technomancy	patchwork: they are probably being turned into strings and written out as utf16 or something
20:45	amalloy	ztellman: obviously not disjoint, because ISeq extends IPC
20:45	ztellman	amalloy: ugh, missed that
20:45	patchwork	technomancy: Any way to just copy them straight over?
20:45	amalloy	just remove IPC from your deftype entirely
20:46	patchwork	it seems like that should be a simple operation in a template, but it seems everything passes through the renderer...
20:46	hyPiRion	patchwork: I think you have to jump down to java Files for that
20:48	ztellman	amalloy: the issue is that the deftype implements ISeq, and in some cases returns a vector from cons
20:48	ztellman	which apparently will throw an exception in a subset of JVMs
20:49	technomancy	patchwork: be sure c.j.io/copy is being run on a File or InputStream
20:49	technomancy	not a string or reader
20:49	ztellman	openjdk 7, but not oracle jdk 7
20:49	ztellman	which is maddening
20:49	amalloy	so you're implementing a seq, which when you conj onto it gives you back a non-seq? i'm not surprised that breaks
20:50	amalloy	ISeq's interface narrows the contract of cons in order to promise that what you get back will be a seq
20:50	ztellman	amalloy: yes, granted, but that's apparently undefined behavior
20:50	ztellman	because the behavior changed between minor updates on my jdk
20:52	amalloy	well, i certainly don't know where to find that in the jvm spec. i know javac wouldn't let you compile your deftype
20:52	amalloy	(if it were written in java, of course)
20:53	technomancy	sritchie: do you have a custom bin/build script?
20:54	ztellman	amalloy: yeah, chalk it up to me not thinking it through carefully enough, it just caught me by surprise when it stopped working all of a sudden
20:54	sritchie	technomancy:
20:54	sritchie	web: lein with-profile production trampoline run prod remote -m paddleguru.server $PORT
20:54	sritchie	that's it
20:55	technomancy	sritchie: I thought you were using an uberjar?
20:55	sritchie	no, after your rec I'm converting over to an uberjar
20:56	technomancy	oh right, but not yet
20:56	sritchie	not yet
20:56	technomancy	ok, so if you're still using lein run then you have to have m2 in your slug
20:56	sritchie	ah, okay, yeah, of course, since lein is referencing all of those jars
20:56	sritchie	boom
20:56	sritchie	makes sense
20:59	technomancy	it threw me off because I had an uberjar app with an m2, but I realized it was pushed with an old rev of the buildpack
21:01	sritchie	gotcha
21:01	sritchie	yeah, this is great
21:01	sritchie	it's fun coming back to clojure and seeing all of the wonderful new libraries everyone's been working on
21:02	ravals	is there a good way to get multiple values out of a vector given their indices? like a variadic get?
21:02	technomancy	,(map [1 4 2 343 4235 22] [0 3 2])
21:02	clojurebot	(1 343 2)
21:02	sritchie	,(map ["a" "b" "c" "d"] [2 0 1])
21:02	clojurebot	("c" "a" "b")
21:02	technomancy	ravals: ^
21:02	mercwithamouth	does anyone else have an issue with instarepl not starting up with light table? is there just something that i do wrong when i try to start it with new projects created with lein?
21:02	ravals	oh, right, they are functions too
21:03	ravals	great, thanks!
21:35	bitemyapp	ahh, clojurescript project stymied. Damn.
21:35	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ?
21:42	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I was going to work on a clojurescript app but got shanghai'd by a higher priority.
21:42	bitemyapp	a wee bit disappointed as that means I won't get to do some serious cljs for awhile yet.
21:44	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ah, gotcha, bummer. :-(
21:44	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: partly me own fault. If I make time to work on Simonides I'll get to do cljs, since that's what the frontend for that is.
21:44	bitemyapp	Too busy :(
21:45	ddellacosta	ah, I see. Yeah, I know what it's like...I always have more projects brewing than I have time for. sigh
22:25	bjl7	Could not locate clojure/tools — any idea where I can get it?
22:27	jared314	bjl7: there are many clojure.tools projects. which one?
22:28	marcopolo2	Client UrlCache MMF Ver 5.2
22:28	marcopolo2	@
22:28	marcopolo2
22:28	marcopolo2	(
22:28	marcopolo2
22:28	marcopolo2	ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
22:29	mtp	wath
22:29	bjl7	jared314: complete beginner, so all/any of them. Only just worked out that lein installs them for you if you add them as a dependency.
22:30	jared314	bjl7: http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cg%3A%22org.clojure%22%20tools
22:31	jared314	bjl7: the sources are on github
22:54	coventry	/join crypto
22:55	coventry	Heh.
22:55	jared314	not very secret
22:57	danlentz	does anyone have handy the cl-format incantation to left pad a [binary] number with 0's?
22:57	danlentz	can't for the life of me ever remember it (or remember where I last wrote it down)
22:57	jared314	danlentz: do you want a string result?
22:58	danlentz	um don't care, but sure
22:59	danlentz	i have (cl-format out "~&[~66b]~%" x)
22:59	coventry	clj-format is just java String/format. http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Formatter.html#syntax
22:59	danlentz	y i mean dl-format
22:59	amalloy	coventry: not close
22:59	danlentz	fl-format rather
22:59	amalloy	he wants cl-format
22:59	jared314	~5,'0d
22:59	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
22:59	amalloy	not clojure's format, which just delegates to String/format
23:00	danlentz	cl-format auto incorrect is going to kill me
23:00	coventry	Oh, I see.
23:00	danlentz	jared314: that looks right, thanks
23:00	jared314	danlentz: ~5,'0b
23:00	jared314	danlentz: i don't remember which one it is
23:02	danlentz	(cl-format out "~&[~64,'0b]~%" num) works perfect. tis very much
23:03	danlentz	tks rather
23:05	danlentz	i don't remember why i gave up on getting it to print a 64 bit binary number using clojure.core/format but I did so there must haver been a reason. I see that I used (format "[%1$016X] " x) for the hex representation
23:12	danlentz	bitwise ops are not defined for bigints?
23:13	danlentz	this is yet another failure in my ongoing quixotic struggle to emulate unsigned 64bit arithmetic with clojure
23:14	danlentz	it just seems like there is no possible way to do it with any semblance of efficiency
23:16	AimHere	Is that doable in Java even?
23:16	AimHere	With the semblance of efficiency, that is...
23:16	danlentz	easily the most frustrating thing I've come across in clojure
23:16	danlentz	sorry colloquy is apparently buggy after mavericks upgrade
23:16	brehaut	danlentz: maybe calls for some of the sun unsafe packages?
23:16	tbaldridge	danlentz: yeah, that's a limit of the JVM, not Clojure
23:17	danlentz	brehaut: i didn't know about them but they sound promising!
23:17	brehaut	sun.misc.unsafe
23:17	brehaut	i dont know specifics
23:17	danlentz	are they in j2se16?
23:17	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:17	brehaut	your guess is as good as mine
23:18	yedi	has anyone used the devop? (https://thedevop.com/) is it any good?
23:18	danlentz	I need to do unsigned 64bit manipulations to get my uuid library to produce results equal to those produced on other platforms
23:19	brehaut	http://mishadoff.github.io/blog/java-magic-part-4-sun-dot-misc-dot-unsafe/
23:19	cmajor7	core.async: what would be a pattern to "collect events", and apply a fn (e.g. flush them to DB) on either timeout or when a certain batch size is reached?
23:19	cmajor7	(whichever comes first)
23:20	brehaut	danlentz: basically theres a direct memory access api in there
23:22	danlentz	yeesh. Its really ugly
23:22	danlentz	dear lord
23:22	brehaut	danlentz: thats hardly a surpruse though :/
23:25	danlentz	Still not certain how to even do this though. using toAddress, and getUnsafe().allocateMemory(size) and getUnsafe.putLong it seems?
23:25	danlentz	jesus
23:25	brehaut	danlentz: unsigned math in jvm is just a giant ball of hurt nomatter how you skin it
23:29	danlentz	ok to hell with colloqy
23:30	brehaut	danlentz: bit odd. its been running just fine for me under mavericks (as much as colloquay is ever fine)
23:31	danlentz	I've gotten close with the likes of:
23:31	danlentz	(if (and (not (zero? offset)) (= (+ offset width) 64))
23:31	danlentz	(unchecked-negate (bit-shift-left (bit-and-not x 1) (dec offset)))
23:31	danlentz	(bit-shift-left x offset))
23:31	danlentz	or some such
23:32	danlentz	but it always winds up being useless in some edge case or whatever
23:33	danlentz	when actually attempting to use whatever bitwise representation I've concocted
23:36	danlentz	other than with longs it works fine to just roll over to next size primitive ie byte-short, short->int, int->long. But the strategy breaks down of course with long as I have just realized bitwise ops on bigint are undefined
23:36	brehaut	danlentz: personally, id go looking for a java implementation of whatever it is you are trying to do, and just use that. let someone else rummage about in the bag of hurt
23:39	danlentz	heh. I think that sounds very wise... I do feal a bit defeated though as this has been my first clojure expedition (coming from common-lisp, which has 3 entirely orthogonal subsystems and complete families of operations by which one may manipulate numeric representations)
23:41	brehaut	understandable
23:41	danlentz	logical-bitwise, boolean-algebraic, and an unbelievably cool primitive type called "bit-vector"
23:42	brehaut	its just unfortunate that you chose one of the few areas where the JVM is a real albatrose
23:42	danlentz	yeah
23:43	danlentz	i really want a decent uuid facility though (ie type 1, 3, 4, 5 etc)
23:43	danlentz	the built in jvm UUID is from hunger
23:45	danlentz	The reason I want them is that there are many ways to employ UUIDs as a kind of "computational data-structure" (as opposed to a pointer/address type)
23:45	amalloy	danlentz: i think there's an apache project with decent UUIDs
23:46	amalloy	but it's been a while, plus i may not know what counts as decent for you
23:46	danlentz	which is extremely useful in the area of graph database
23:47	danlentz	Y I saw the apache; wasn't thrilled + the idea was to learn some clojure by writing exactly the library I wanted... :)
23:48	danlentz	but you're right I'm not sure if I could have picked a more frustrating project to start with
23:50	danlentz	the whole thing is kind of surprising to me as there arew so many networking protocols implemented on the jvm
23:50	tbaldridge	that's kindof a reflection of what the JVM is used for.
23:51	brehaut	tbaldridge: i think the JVM is used for many of those things in spite of it
23:51	brehaut	tbaldridge: unsigned bytes etc are pretty important for all things networked
23:51	danlentz	y one would think this ground might have been trodden before..
23:52	brehaut	danlentz: like most quagmires it doesnt retain footprints well
23:52	brehaut	danlentz: the standard solution is use the next size thing up
23:52	brehaut	works until you run out of sizes up
23:52	`cbp	bitemyapp: now we have the best documented rdb community driver :-). Although it still has a long way to go to get close to the official ones :-(
23:53	danlentz	I saw a quote somewhere that JVM made the consious decision not to implement unsigned arithmetic brecause it was deemed to make things TOO COMPLICATED
23:53	brehaut	yup.
23:53	brehaut	thats what irony tastes like
23:54	brehaut	danlentz: i think it might finally be coming in java8
23:54	danlentz	jvm seems to be one of the gratest strengths and greatest weaknesses of clojure
23:55	brehaut	its largely the former, but theres certainly some latter
23:56	jared314	danlentz: that depends on when clj-in-clj happens
23:57	danlentz	is there a viable clj-in-clj effort undereway?
23:57	brehaut	yes-ish
23:58	brehaut	its progressing but its not a usable target yet
23:58	tbaldridge	danlentz: often more of a strength than a weakness, I find it funny that Clojure has gotten this far in what, 5 years? Ruby took a decade for people to even hear about it.
23:58	tbaldridge	clj-in-clj will probably never target a platform besides JVM and JS.
23:58	danlentz	i assume the idea is to bootstrap it along the lines of CMUCL or CCL in the common-lisp world?
23:59	brehaut	https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC
23:59	tbaldridge	right now it's only aiming at one thing: making the compiler more approachable and easier to maintain.
23:59	tbaldridge	brehaut: that's been replaced by the official clojure projects: https://github.com/clojure/tools.emitter.jvm