#clojure – 2013-11-01

2013-11-01

00:08	amalloy	gfredericks: this isn't #clojure-confessions
00:08	amalloy	keep your filthy habits to yourself
00:09	gfredericks	this is #clojure-confessions
00:09	gfredericks	everybody confess something
00:10	muhoo	forgive me rich, for i have mutated state
00:10	Bronsa	lol
00:10	muhoo	it's been 30ms since my last compile
00:11	brehaut	i dont write tests if i can help it
00:11	amalloy	i'm proud of my complex functions
00:11	brehaut	i like types
00:12	amalloy	yesterday i created a deftype instead of a vector, to hold a two-tuple, because i have an unrelated function that treats vectors specially
00:12	muhoo	wow, i guess i'm the only one who survived catholic school. you guys are going all #dirtylittlesecrets instead
00:13	technomancy	I, um, actually enjoy elisp even though it's gross.
00:13	muhoo	hahaha
00:14	muhoo	y'all know this channel is logged, right?
00:14	brehaut	haha
00:14	gfredericks	s/this channel/life/
00:14	muhoo	as for complex functions, i'm not sure that's a confession. ever looked at rich's code for codeq?
00:15	muhoo	some of those lets are longer than the longest functions i've written
00:15	TimMc	I... I write swearjure.
00:15	muhoo	i have to woner how the hell you debug stuff like that, all that stuff buried inside a let where you can't test it
00:15	gfredericks	I've written (defn update [m k f & args] (apply update-in m [k] f args)) at least ten times
00:16	amalloy	haha
00:16	amalloy	gfredericks: that's one of ninjudd's favorite functions in useful
00:16	brehaut	muhoo: the secret is not writing bugs to start with
00:16	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah the confession is mostly about not using a utility lib instead
00:16	muhoo	brehaut: right, like linus explaining why he never uses a debugger. because he has no bugs.
00:16	brehaut	exactly
00:17	TimMc	gfredericks: A short-hand for a single key update-in?
00:17	gfredericks	TimMc: yeah
00:17	muhoo	it's so annoying to forget that [] around the k
00:17	muhoo	you get a lovely "cannot be cast to ISeq" or similar explosion
00:17	gfredericks	sometimes I :refer :all in production code
00:18	gfredericks	but only for honeysql
00:18	muhoo	gfredericks: wow, that's dirty
00:18	muhoo	whoops, if it's #confessions i suppose i shouldn't judge
00:18	muhoo	my bad
00:20	muhoo	i guess my confession is: i suck at maths and have no fundamental understanding of what a factorial is or why it is "hello world" in every good language
00:20	brehaut	muhoo: hello world is the smallest program you can write that ensures you are invoking the compiler correctly and that you have an action occuring
00:21	brehaut	+, +!
00:24	analognoise	It's an invocation to the programming gods that the most basic components are playing correctly
00:24	analognoise	A point where you should check you can get to before you do anything else
00:25	analognoise	The factorial is a function defined recursively, however more importatly it has a closed form solution that most people don't think about
00:25	gfredericks	I just copy-pasted
00:25	analognoise	It's closed form solution is the gamma function + or - 1, iirc
00:25	abaranosky	flatten really does suck
00:26	gfredericks	flatten is the java.util.Date of clojure
00:26	amalloy	haha
00:26	brehaut	i have (def flatten (partial mapcat identity)) in my user.clj
00:26	amalloy	well, except nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you use flatten. unlike Date
00:27	gfredericks	amalloy: weirdest muggers ever
00:41	muhoo	hmm, bishop and liberator seem to have nearly identical api's and functionality. why would i use one vs the other?
01:36	jergason	super noob question about maps: what is the difference between (get map :name) and (:name map)?
01:39	holo	jergason, one difference: the second is smaller
01:51	`cbp	bitemyapp: hi
01:52	`cbp	bitemyapp: queries are like 90% tested now, still a couple weird cases. But now we're basically only waiting for your connection magic :-) + some cleanup on my part
01:54	ltw	jergason: (map :name) too
01:54	jergason	ltw: whoa neato
01:55	ltw	jergason: although I feel like someone showed me an edgecase for that one
01:56	andyfingerhut	ltw: Perhaps that if key :name is mapped to value nil, it will return nil, the same as if :name was not a key in the map?
01:57	ltw	,(:foo {:a 1 :b 2})
01:57	clojurebot	nil
01:57	ltw	,({:a 1 :b 2} :foo)
01:57	clojurebot	nil
01:58	ltw	that's the same in (get {:a 1 :b 2} :foo) as well
01:59	ltw	there must be a paranoid accessor for maps?
01:59	Apage43	You can specify a default
01:59	Apage43	,(:foo {:foo nil :a 1} ::actually-missing)
01:59	clojurebot	nil
02:00	Apage43	,(:bar {:foo nil :a 1} ::actually-missing)
02:00	clojurebot	:sandbox/actually-missing
02:02	ltw	Apage43: still, is there nothing that errors by default?
02:04	Apage43	something like (defn get-or-die [in key] (let [sentinel (Object.) result (get in key sentinel)] (if (not= result sentinel) result (throw (ex-info "Key not found!" {:in in :key key})))))
02:06	Apage43	(but in general no, you're either using clojure's ILookup or the java.util.Map interface, which specify that null/nil is returned for not found)
02:13	technomancy	gfredericks: almost spewed drink over "weirdest muggers ever" thanks
02:29	Raynes	And in heaven, an angel dies and his bones fall to earth and become sadness and pain among a civilization.
02:30	Raynes	All because andyfingerhut used alter-var-root on a clojure.core function.
02:30	andyfingerhut	I'd kill a puppy for this feature.
02:30	andyfingerhut	I'm a little surprised more libraries don't do this.
02:32	Raynes	I'm going to send you to a base in Antarctica with no internet access if you keep talkin' like dis, man.
02:33	andyfingerhut	OK, I wouldn't kill a puppy for real for this, but why complain about changes to core that you personally like not getting in if you don't have to wait, and don't even have to build your own modified clojure.core to do it?
02:33	andyfingerhut	I realize that it could cause infinite pain and frustration if misused, but still.
02:35	Raynes	Oh Andy, if you give them this power, I fear they will use it to destroy us! Be careful what you wish for, my friend, I plead!
02:36	andyfingerhut	:-) It's already been given. I just didn't see it before.
02:36	Raynes	Knowledge is power.
02:38	andyfingerhut	Or on a less havoc-causing level, it would be easy for someone to release a library that replaces all core doc strings with others, no changes to core required.
02:51	amalloy	andyfingerhut: isn't that basically what ambrosebs did by releasing some kind of project that adds type information to the functions in core.clj?
02:53	andyfingerhut	If you mean core.typed, my understanding (hearsay only) is that it is a lint-like tool, with no effect during runtime.
02:55	andyfingerhut	I just grep'd through all contrib libraries, and the only ones I see that use alter-var-root are core.contracts, java.data, tools.namespace, tools.nrepl, and of course tools.trace for implementing its main feature
03:18	mercwithamouth	can someone tell me how to turn on vim keybindings in light table? i'm not seeing it in the docs
03:19	mercwithamouth	or is it just the basics...saving/quitting?
03:36	Jarda	If I have a function that takes two parameters, like (def foo [item, options] ...)
03:37	Jarda	and I'd like to pass that to map
03:37	Jarda	should I do (map (fn [itm] (foo itm opts)) col) ?
03:37	Jarda	or is there a better way
03:39	andyfingerhut	Jarda: There are almost certainly other ways, but that is clear and correct.
03:40	andyfingerhut	You could shorten it slightly to (map #(foo % opts) col) if you wish
09:26	silasdavis	mdrogalis, does he ever appear on here?
09:26	silasdavis	I was thinking I could have a go...
09:27	silasdavis	presumably it would just be a case of sucking the docstrings out of 1.5 in the first instance...
09:27	mdrogalis	I haven't see him. He's responsive on Twitter though.
09:27	mdrogalis	And the examples.
09:27	teslanick	So maybe there's a right way to do this that's not super-imperative: I have a vector of digits, and I want to create from it a new vector in a particular way. So maybe I want to move index 0 to 4 and 4 to 5 and 5 to 12.
09:28	mpenet	mdrogalis: he is antares or antares_ on freenode I think
09:28	teslanick	I was thinking about creating a mapping object and a function that does the transformation. But it seems like that might already exist somewhere
09:28	silasdavis	so updating those where necessary and copying them to the the 1.5 entries?
09:29	silasdavis	yeoj___, not sure what you mean by a lazy replacement for doall...
09:30	mdrogalis	mpenet: Ah, did not know that.
09:30	jkkramer	silasdavis: mdrogalis: babilen: https://github.com/clojuredocs/web
09:31	mdrogalis	jkkramer: That'
09:31	mdrogalis	's the one.
09:32	silasdavis	ah hah
09:32	jkkramer	looks like most of the hard part is done, just the boring web and UI work :)
09:32	silasdavis	perhaps I can make myself useful then
09:33	silasdavis	rather than just being a giant answer spunge
09:35	yeoj___	silasdavis: i did it with for... basically i wasn't interested in side-effects but wanted to eval a sequence (a jdbc resultset) lazily
09:35	yeoj___	silasdavis: i think it worked. i'm going to run it on a million rows and see if my laptop catches fire again.
09:56	tbaldridge	I'm going to assume I'm missing something here. Why on earth was emacs nrepl renamed to cider?
09:56	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I just started wondering that last week.
09:57	mdrogalis	I was told to differentiate between nrepl and nrepl.el
09:57	babilen	mdrogalis: Yes, based on the assumption that the Clojure community at large is more likely to work/support a clojure/clojurescript project than a Ruby one. (nothing else really and no prerequisite at all)
09:57	babilen	jkkramer: Ah, thanks :)
09:58	tbaldridge	I'm going to assume I'm missing something here. Why on earth was emacs nrepl renamed to cider?
09:58	tbaldridge	bleh, accident repost.
09:58	mdrogalis	tbaldridge is broken D: Someone reset it.
10:35	squidz	does anybody know why dommy doesn't recognize the 'onChange' event. Am I missing something? Or is there a way to create the event if it isn't provided? I don't know enough about javascript to figure it out
10:37	dnolen	squidz: gist please
10:37	dnolen	squidz: if you adding it via JS event listener handler fn the event is "change"
10:42	silasdavis	is (lazy-cat (rest coll) [(first coll)]) any different to (concat (rest coll) [(first coll)])?
10:43	squidz	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/20363 here a simplified version
10:46	cemerick	dnolen: it occurs to me that you probably have github notifications off; looking for info @ https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/b261447e598dd9463ace406337c9f2d1a02bb799#commitcomment-4487530
10:48	dnolen	squidz: sanity check w/ (.addEventListener el "change" (fn [e] (. js/console (log e))))
10:48	dnolen	cemerick: I get notifications, commented
10:51	cemerick	dnolen: thanks, sorry for the noise
10:52	squidz	dnolen: hmm that seems to do nothing either
10:52	cYmen	Hi guys
10:53	squidz	I used (.addEventListener (sel1 "#power-to") "change" (fn [e] (. js/console (log e))))
10:56	cYmen	I have a LAMP server, how easy is it to replace php with clojure?
10:57	mdrogalis	cYmen: Depends on your situation. I do it here. It's not fun.
10:58	squidz	dnolen: okay using a different target element seems to work, so I suppose something is up with the input element that I was trying to use
10:58	squidz	the input is a jqueryUI datepicker so that may have something to do with it
10:59	cYmen	mdrogalis: Damn, then I won't do it.
10:59	cYmen	How about using ring-clojure and compojure or something like that?
10:59	cYmen	As long as it is reasonably stable and secure I don't mind not going through apache.
11:02	silasdavis	am I right to think there is no bounds to the memory used by a memoized function?
11:03	squidz	dnolen: clicking on the input brings up a visual datpicker. After clicking on that datepicker the input is changed, so I suppose I may be using the wrong listener type.
11:03	CookedGryphon	silasdavis: use core.memoize
11:03	silasdavis	obviously it is bounded by some function of the number of possibly inputs
11:04	squidz	dnolen: yes, blur seems to do the trick
11:04	silasdavis	CookedGryphon, that's one I'm asking about yep
11:04	CookedGryphon	silasdavis: you can pick your cache type (fifo, lu, ttl, etc) and how big
11:04	jkkramer	cYmen: i've worked on projects that house php and clojure on the same domain, using stuff like apache proxypass
11:04	CookedGryphon	silasdavis: not clojure.core/memoize, but org.clojure/core.memoize
11:04	silasdavis	CookedGryphon, oh...
11:04	cYmen	jkkramer: and your experience with that was...?
11:04	CookedGryphon	separate library, more comprehensive memoization based on core.cache
11:05	silasdavis	ah nice thanks
11:05	jkkramer	cYmen: worked reasonably well
11:06	jkkramer	cYmen: with shared site style, it's pretty transparent to end users
11:06	cYmen	thanks
11:36	akrajan	/set irc.look.smart_filter on
11:36	moratti	quit
11:43	seangrove	dnolen: I'm not sure where the analyzer.clj placeholder tests are in the clojurescript repo, any pointers so I can write tests that verify the default-warning-handler behavior?
11:44	seangrove	dnolen: Ah, or do you mean the comment block at the bottom of all of the files? :)
12:03	l4u	what's nice about the prefix notation in clojure/lisp? when compared to a pipeline operator
12:04	l4u	or -> in clojure
12:12	justin_smith	l4u: prefix is easy to work with in automated ways
12:12	silasdavis	where does sine and cosine live currently?
12:12	justin_smith	,(Math/cos 1.0)
12:12	clojurebot	0.5403023058681398
12:13	justin_smith	,(Math/sin 1.0)
12:13	clojurebot	0.8414709848078965
12:13	l4u	justin_smith what do you mean by automated ways? any examples?
12:13	justin_smith	l4u: macros, for example
12:13	dnolen	seangrov1: tset/clj/cljs/
12:13	dnolen	seangrov1: oops, test/clj/cljs/
12:13	justin_smith	-> would have been harder to implement without prefix notation
12:14	seangrove	dnolen: I think undeclared var warnings is turned off by default, isn't it? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L33
12:15	dnolen	seangrov1: it probably not be, vestige of the early days
12:15	dnolen	probably should not be
12:16	justin_smith	l4u: also, if you look at a compiler's internal representation for the code (the form it takes before optimization and assembly / bytecode output) pretty much any compiler produces somthing very much like lisp prefix notation (what they call a parse tree), by having a syntax that is closer to that format, programmatic access to the code structure is simpler
12:16	l4u	justin_smith sometimes when I write an expression, i tend to rewrite it with -> operator. because it looks more like unix pipes. is it common or weird?
12:16	seangrove	dnolen: Just wondering why it warns in script/repljs. If I set `:undeclared-var true` in my patch I get a ton of errors, and then it works: https://www.refheap.com/20364
12:17	seangrove	Maybe something about loading core.cljs?
12:17	justin_smith	l4u: beyond 3 nested calls I like to either make things into intermediate let values (if they deserve names) or break them out to a -> call
12:17	justin_smith	that is normal
12:17	seangrove	I'll track it down, just trying to understand existing behavior
12:18	seangrove	Ah, :warn-on-undeclared in script/repljs
12:18	l4u	justin_smith ok maybe I should look into let usages thanks
12:21	cemerick	dnolen: is ana/namespaces intended to be read-only from macros, or is it a free-for-all?
12:22	dnolen	cemerick: ana/namespaces is meant to be used by macros, tools, etc.
12:23	dnolen	cemerick: we could design an api but I really don't see the point
12:24	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, I get that. I'm backing the compiler env into it, and just want to know if it needs to support writes (swap!) or just reads (@).
12:24	cemerick	I can do both, but the latter is far simpler.
12:25	dnolen	cemerick: I can't see any value in writing to it.
12:25	cemerick	dnolen: that's what I figured as well; we can start with that
12:26	cemerick	FWIW, only macros should find ana/namespaces useful. External tools will likely have the compiler-env in hand already, and can/should just look there for namespaces information.
12:27	cemerick	Tools that don't do this will end up getting the same race conditions that the compiler suffers from right now.
12:28	dnolen	cemerick: yep
12:46	vpak	.т
12:46	vpak	.n
12:49	vpak	help
12:49	vpak	ops sorry just trying to learn irssi
12:50	TimMc	vpak: Commands are prefixed with a "/", such as /quit and /join.
12:50	vpak	:) thanks
12:50	rasmusto	., .n, a call for help
12:51	vpak	.n
12:51	vpak	./
12:51	vpak	.,
12:51	TimMc	Um...
12:51	rasmusto	/join #devnull
12:51	TEttinger	take out the space
12:52	dnolen	this probably only of interesting to people writing extremely perf sensitive JS, but I'm thinking about adding implements?, it is like satisfies? but it doesn't bother with the slow check for natives.
12:52	dnolen	s/JS/CLJS
12:53	mercwithamouth	how would one go about...populating or creating a key/map from a list of items?
12:53	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: what's the list look like?
12:54	TEttinger	,(doc into)
12:54	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
12:54	TEttinger	(into {} '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 17))
12:54	TEttinger	##(into {} '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 17))
12:54	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
12:54	TEttinger	uhhh
12:55	rasmusto	,(into {} (partition 2 '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3)))
12:55	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
12:55	rasmusto	,(apply into {} (partition 2 '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3)))
12:55	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$into>
12:55	rasmusto	brb, coffee
12:55	TEttinger	##(into {} (vec '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 17)))
12:55	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
12:56	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: just general
12:56	rasmusto	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
12:56	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
12:56	mercwithamouth	TEttinger: hmmm
12:57	mercwithamouth	into.
12:58	mercwithamouth	ok i'm going to play with that for today...
13:00	dobry-den	What does it mean when this launches when you :require/:import a library? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/quq37nq1583x0lf/8oy9dnb-.png
13:00	dobry-den	(a java app)
13:01	dobry-den	Sometimes I get a few of them over the course of a work session
13:01	muhoo	dobry-den: maybe that whomever wrote the library screwed up?
13:01	muhoo	dobry-den: or something is weird in your setup maybe
13:02	Raynes	muhoo's first suggestion, but not quite as mean.
13:02	dobry-den	it seems to happen with libs that provide a function that pop up a jpanel. like lamina.viz
13:02	Raynes	If you for some reason load javax swing stuff, that happens.
13:03	dobry-den	that's it
13:03	Raynes	Only way to make it not happen is to not load swing stuff or use -Djava.awt.headless=true
13:04	TEttinger	mercwithamouth, herp derp I'm not very good yet
13:04	TEttinger	##(apply hash-map '(:a 1 :b 2))
13:04	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2}
13:05	muhoo	Raynes: i say that because recently i stupidly forgot to wrap (fn []) around something and the body was exec'ing at compile time. took me a while to figure out what was going on.
13:05	Raynes	:p
13:05	dobry-den	Raynes: i imagine that headless also prevents the graphics from showing up
13:05	Raynes	dobry-den: I don't think that is true.
13:05	Raynes	But I could be wrong.
13:05	dobry-den	i'll try it out
13:05	Raynes	I'm interested in knowing the answer, so do let me know please. :)
13:06	dobry-den	also, it seems i usually have to run funcs that call swing stuff from a repl outside emacs
13:06	muhoo	there's crap you can do with DISPLAY=:0.0 etc
13:07	muhoo	fun X tricks: getting GUI windows to show up anywhere you want, even on other machines over ssh, etc.
13:08	dobry-den	lost me at X
13:08	muhoo	Xwindows
13:08	dobry-den	er, fun X
13:09	spacefugitive	hai! Is this a place for noob clojure questions ?
13:09	dobry-den	yeh
13:10	muhoo	dobry-den: if you don't have to dive deep into xwindows, you can consider yourself lucky. then again if you don't have to deal with swing in java, you can probably consider yourself just as lucky.
13:12	spacefugitive	@dobry-den was for me ?
13:12	dobry-den	spacefugitive: yeah just ask m8
13:12	llasram	spacefugitive: Also, no need to @-prefix people's nicks. IRC convention is to just mention people by bare name
13:12	TimMc	muhoo: I <3 X-forwarding.
13:12	spacefugitive	ok thanks :)
13:13	spacefugitive	Im trying to run my first clojure program and spec
13:14	dobry-den	muhoo: i never used swing but id like to play with seesaw. unfortunately the last time i tried, iirc it couldnt even require into clojure 1.5.x
13:14	spacefugitive	I am trying to return a hash from a fcn and bind it to a let variable
13:14	spacefugitive	(defn init-rover
13:14	spacefugitive	[planet]
13:14	spacefugitive	([{:x 0 :y 0 :heading "N"}])
13:14	spacefugitive	)
13:14	dobry-den	spacefugitive: if you have some code related to the problem, you can throw it up on refheap.com
13:15	dobry-den	([{}])
13:16	TimMc	spacefugitive: Let me guess, that throws an arity exception?
13:16	spacefugitive	yeah
13:16	TimMc	([...]) says "call this vector as a function with zero arguments"
13:16	rasmusto	spacefugitive: it looks like you wrap a map in a vector and then try to call it (without any arguments)
13:16	TimMc	(x y z) almost always means call x with arguments y and z
13:17	TimMc	[x y z] is the vector of x, y, and z
13:17	TimMc	So you just want {:x 0 :y 0 :heading "N"} on that line.
13:17	spacefugitive	okay. I kinda want to kind it to a local let vairable ?
13:18	dobry-den	within the function?
13:18	spacefugitive	within the spec
13:18	spacefugitive	https://www.refheap.com/20368
13:19	TimMc	Oh, you want the rover to be a map within a vector?
13:19	TimMc	Just drop that one set of parentheses, then.
13:20	jared314	why are you making it a vector, then destructuring it back into a value?
13:21	dobry-den	maybe it's a budding CES engine
13:21	spacefugitive	okay - thanks!
13:22	spacefugitive	jared314 : Thats something I tried to change when I was returning a fucntion that returns a map. I thought it work work somehow.
13:23	jared314	spacefugitive: ah, ok
13:31	dnolen	if anybody wants to get their hands dirty with some impactful CLJS optimizations around protocols I added a bunch of enhancement tickets http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS
13:31	xeqi	cemerick: would you be interested in some PRs to piggieback / austin that will send javascript w/ inline sourcemaps for the repl?
13:33	cemerick	xeqi: you know I would be :-)
13:33	cemerick	I don't use source maps, but I might if they "just worked".
13:34	cemerick	xeqi: would you actually need to touch piggieback? It should be pretty darn porous. FWIW, if there's a barrier in there w.r.t. configuring compilation/analysis/etc, I'd much rather eliminate them entirely rather than poking holes for source maps.
13:35	dondani	n00b question: why is 'pr-str' called like that instead of 'pr-string'? the corresponding read function is called 'read-string' after all, right?
13:35	TimMc	I don't think there's a good reason.
13:36	jared314	I would add why is str not called string
13:36	noonian	naming things is hard
13:36	teslanick	That and cache invalidation
13:36	noonian	exactly
13:36	jared314	and what about string? and not str?
13:37	edoloughlin	Does anyone using emacs know how I get the nrepl-server buffer window to scroll automatically with my log output?
13:37	TimMc	Oh, and concurr -- not to mention off-by-one errors -- ency!
13:38	xeqi	cemerick: hmm, I need to pass in a replacement for cljs-eval. It looks like I can do that through (cljs-repl ...), though thats in my server.clj stuff. I'll clean it up and see what happens
13:39	cemerick	TimMc: well done
13:39	cemerick	xeqi: wow, surprised it requires so much?
13:39	teslanick	TimMc: I had a problem and thought to use threads. has Now I problems. two.
13:40	TimMc	:-)
13:42	cmiles74	I have quick clojure.async question: Is it reasonable to want to call dosync to, say, update a ref from inside a call to go? For instance, update a value if a particular message shows up.
13:43	xeqi	cemerick: well, my current version replaces cljs.repl/evaluate-form in order to generate a source map as part of emit and then append it on whats sent to the browser. I was hoping to pull it up into one of the others since I'm not sure it belongs there
13:44	stuartsierra	cmiles74: Just FYI, "dosync" has nothing to do with "asnyc", despite the name.
13:44	stuartsierra	And yes, you can use `dosync` to modify a Ref inside a `go` block.
13:45	xeqi	though then it would require implementing something similar for other repls.. hmm
13:45	cmiles74	stuartsierra: Thank you. :-) Perhaps something else is happening, I'm getting a weird exception when compiling: "No such var: clojure.core/runInTransaction". I was wondering if it was just disallowed. Maybe I have an old version of the library.
13:46	stuartsierra	cmiles74: Don't know what that is. Maybe a bug in the implementation of the `go` macro, which is complicated.
13:47	cmiles74	stuartsierra: I bet it is!
13:47	stuartsierra	One thing I expect you can't do is use any non-blocking core.async operations like <! >! alt! inside a `dosync`.
13:49	cmiles74	stuartsierra: That makes sense. I'm loading an index with data and, when complete, I want to swap out the pointer to the old index with the new... It looks like this bug was, literally, fixed yesterday. http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ASYNC-24
13:49	mlb-	How can I redirect pprint output to a file? Further, how can I format my timbre log output with pprint?
13:49	rasmusto	,(with-out-str (prn "foo"))
13:49	clojurebot	"\"foo\"\n"
13:50	jared314	rebind out
13:51	jcromartie	more specifically, rebind out to a Writer that writes to your file
13:51	rasmusto	mlb-: don't know about the second part
13:51	mlb-	jcromartie: ah, I see, cool. Thanks
13:51	jcromartie	like (with-open [w (clojure.java.io/writer "file.clj")] (binding [out w] (pprint whatever)))
13:51	stuartsierra	mlb-: Be aware, pprint is very slow compared to regular print. May have an impact on logging.
13:52	mlb-	stuartsierra: No doubt, but I'd find it useful with timbre's "spy"
13:52	stuartsierra	sure
13:57	justin_smith	does partial force the creation of new anonymous functions at runtime? that is to say, is it a performance hit compared to a proper anonymous function if you know how many args are going to come in?
14:00	cYmen	Why is (= 3) => true? Shouldn't that be an error?
14:01	patchwork	cYmen: it is equal to itself
14:01	patchwork	You can pass any number of args into =
14:01	patchwork	and it checks the equality of all of them
14:01	patchwork	Same with < and >
14:02	fizruk	,(=)
14:02	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->
14:02	patchwork	So if you have one arg, it is trivially equal to itself
14:02	patchwork	,(= 3 3 3 3 3)
14:02	clojurebot	true
14:02	patchwork	,(3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4)
14:02	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:02	patchwork	,(= 3 3 3 3 3 3 4)
14:02	clojurebot	false
14:03	cYmen	That sounds like an excuse. :) Equality is just not a unary relation.
14:03	tbaldridge	,(reduce = [3]) ; would be nasty if this didn't work
14:03	clojurebot	3
14:03	cYmen	tbaldridge: True...
14:03	amalloy	tbaldridge: well, more like (apply = [3])
14:04	amalloy	reduce doesn't make any sense for =
14:04	cYmen	,(apply = [])
14:04	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->
14:04	cYmen	Then again...
14:04	patchwork	cYmen: You are expecting strict mathematical equality
14:04	tbaldridge	amalloy: yeah, you're right
14:04	patchwork	clojure has practical equality : )
14:05	patchwork	It works for any value, not just numbers
14:05	cYmen	I don't know... I consider both (=) and (= 3) to be the same kind of error and would have liked the compiler to catch them.
14:05	patchwork	You can always define your own mathematical equality: (fn [a b] (= a b))
14:05	dnolen	hmm, reiddraper simple-check for testing core.async deadlock?
14:05	patchwork	That will fail for one arg
14:06	TimMc	tbaldridge: I think >2-arity = uses reduce.
14:06	justin_smith	(source =)
14:06	TimMc	Oh hmm, not quite.
14:06	liszt	cYmen: I don't know why you have a problem with this.
14:06	justin_smith	,(source =)
14:06	clojurebot	Source not found\n
14:06	amalloy	TimMc: highly unlikely
14:06	justin_smith	meh
14:06	TimMc	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/=
14:07	TimMc	amalloy: Yeah, thinko.
14:07	reiddraper	dnolen: that'd be awesome, erlang quickcheck can do some similar things with a tool called PULSE
14:07	cYmen	liszt: It's not a serious problem I just actually made the mistake of missing one argument and it ran fine and gave weird results. :)
14:07	liszt	cYmen: "All of my arguments are equal to one another" is a completely consistent definition of =.
14:07	TimMc	It does it pairwise, anyhow.
14:07	dnolen	reiddraper: would simple-check need tweaking for async testing?
14:08	arun	liszt: (=) => true would have been cool :)
14:08	reiddraper	dnolen: I'd need to dwell on that for a bit, certainly some things you could test with no changes
14:08	liszt	arun: Yep.
14:08	tbaldridge	oh...async simple-check...yes please
14:09	dnolen	reiddraper: k, I've been wanting to do a post on simple-check on my blog, I think demo'ing simple-check for deadlock detection in ClojureScript core.async would be killer
14:09	patchwork	arun: Agreed. that would make it fully consistent
14:09	patchwork	Rich probably has a reason though ; )
14:09	dnolen	reiddraper: it's main source of incidental complexity, and be able to get a minimum sequence of messages would be amazing
14:09	akrajan	,(+)
14:09	clojurebot	0
14:10	sandbags	anyone know why cljsbuild would, apparently, lose track of the core Clojure functions like "ref". I'm getting "Use of undeclared Var" errors for core stuff like ref, dosync etc..
14:10	reiddraper	dnolen: right, that's probably going to be nontrivial, but I'll give it some thought. The erlang one works by taking over the scheduler
14:10	akrajan	(=) => true would have served as a identity function
14:10	stuartsierra	Is there any written documentation on CLJS source maps?
14:10	stuartsierra	I'm looking for references for our training course.
14:10	amalloy	uhhh, i don't think those exist in cljs, sandbags
14:10	tbaldridge	sandbags: clojurescript is single threaded, why on earth would you need STM?
14:10	patchwork	I feel like it is a zen koan: "Is nothingness equal to itself?"
14:10	sandbags	ah crap
14:11	reiddraper	dnolen: well, actually it rewrites your code, we might could just use a macro for that...
14:11	sandbags	i failed to engage brain
14:11	sandbags	i didn't notice that all those things were async constructs
14:11	dnolen	stuartsierra: only how to use it - https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
14:11	sandbags	thanks
14:11	`cbp	tbaldridge: can I ask you something?
14:11	dnolen	stuartsierra: and it's not fully baked quite yet - we still need the ability to relative URLs for CJLS + webserver case
14:12	tbaldridge	`cbp: no, never
14:12	`cbp	tbaldridge: :-(
14:12	stuartsierra	dnolen: OK, thanks, good to know.
14:12	dnolen	s/relative/relativize
14:12	tbaldridge	`cbp: go ahead
14:13	`cbp	tbaldridge: On your youtube videos I noticed you sent blocks of code from your source file to your nrepl. How do you do that?
14:13	`cbp	repl*
14:14	stuartsierra	hah
14:16	tbaldridge	I got it from code I stole from stuartsierra.
14:17	benmoss	does anyone know where clojurescript is supposed to be able to find clojure "1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT"?
14:17	stuartsierra	`cbp: here it is https://github.com/stuartsierra/dotfiles/blob/8dc9a38e74f7c47927b7a98c0635ce30c303be9a/.emacs.d/local/init.el#L276-L301 but I don't think it works with the new "cider"
14:17	stuartsierra	benmoss: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Maven+Settings+and+Repositories
14:17	Raynes	stuartsierra: How's things, hair color, etc
14:17	stuartsierra	Raynes: Brown.
14:18	dnolen	benmoss: CLJS doesn't need 1.6, that because of the 1.6 profile in CLJS's project.clj
14:18	Raynes	stuartsierra: You're living on the edge, man.
14:18	`cbp	nice, nice
14:18	tbaldridge	`cbp: yeah it doesn't work with cider. yet, but it's really nice, I don't know why it doesn't come standard with the lib
14:18	dnolen	benmoss: I think you just need to specify the 1.5 profile (i don't know how to do that)
14:18	stuartsierra	SLIME didn't have it either, as I recall.
14:19	tbaldridge	stuartsierra: I don't care who didn't have it. I just want it :-P
14:19	Raynes	Heh, aphyr changed his twitter name to 'Twitter'.
14:19	benmoss	dnolen: hmm, just trying to run "lein test-all" which runs against both profiles
14:19	Raynes	"Retweeted by Twitter"
14:19	stuartsierra	Yeah, maybe I should just submit that to nrepl.el, only now it's all different.
14:19	tbaldridge	I don't know why by default cider would send stuff to the "echo" buffer, or whatever it's called. I love clojure in emacs, I just don't understand it sometimes.
14:20	stuartsierra	tbaldridge: C'mon man, know your Emacsisms! It's "minibuffer."
14:20	dnolen	benmoss: which you don't want or need to do
14:20	dnolen	benmoss: also `lein test` doesn't do anything yet, there are no compiler infrastructure tests at the moment, only tests for CLJS code itself.
14:21	benmoss	dnolen: gotcha, yeah i was trying to run the test suite to see that i had everything setup before modifying
14:21	dnolen	cemerick: 649, I don't like the sound of more options :)
14:22	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, I don't either really, but :libs is not easy to understand at all. A big part of that is the conflation of two totally different types of entries. shrug
14:23	cemerick	I don't really grok the filesystem case; is it realistic to expect people to enumerate all of their js libs?
14:24	cemerick	especially with the (hacky, but neat) magic of discovering js libs that have goog.provides and requires in them (but _only_ on the classpath!)
14:24	dnolen	cemerick: I was confused about :libs, it seems you are right that you can specify directories or files. The classpath is the real issue, but people just don't understand this part
14:25	dnolen	cemerick: everything that's going to be a part of your project needs to be on the classpath
14:25	cemerick	dnolen: you _can't_ specify directories
14:25	stuartsierra	Is it still true in CLJS that you can only catch js/Error and not, say, strings?
14:26	jcromartie	do you think Clojure is modern or postmodern?
14:26	dnolen	stuartsierra: atm the moment yes, been hoping to get some word from Rich about cross platform catch all
14:26	stuartsierra	dnolen: OK, thanks.
14:26	cemerick	dnolen: I'm 100% fine with everything needing to be on the classpath. That's how I work, but there's always (apocryphal, AFAICT?) usage of e.g. command-line cljsc by people that don't grok classpath, etc.
14:27	shaungilchrist	jcromartie: postmodern for sure
14:27	dnolen	cemerick: I don't consider educating people about the classpath a problem we need to solve
14:28	dnolen	stuartsierra: happy to revert the try/catch change until it gets settled, it was low level compiler enhancement in the first place.
14:28	dnolen	stuartsierra: I'm assuming you're interfacing w/ some lib that throws strings?
14:28	cemerick	dnolen: Yup. Well, if you're up for it, we can put dropping filesystem support for :libs up for consideration at some point in the future...
14:28	stuartsierra	dnolen: It's not a problem for me, this is for teaching.
14:29	dnolen	stuartsierra: gotcha
14:30	dnolen	cemerick: oh, I haven't look at :libs code, so are you saying it tries both io/resource and io/file or something?
14:30	benmoss	dnolen: now trying to run ./script/test with v8, is the suite pretty instantaneous? seems like nothing is being run. I see "Tested with 1 out of 3 possible js targets", but the whole script takes 136ms
14:30	dnolen	benmoss: v8 is magic
14:31	dnolen	benmoss: but double checking run time on my machine one moment
14:32	dnolen	benmoss: takes ~1.3-5 seconds on my machine, so something is up w/ your setup
14:32	benmoss	great
14:35	benmoss	ah, my core-advanced-test.js is empty
14:38	benmoss	and that is probably related to "Error: Could not find or load main class clojure.main"
14:39	dnolen	benmoss: did you run the bootstrap script?
14:40	benmoss	er, no
14:40	dnolen	benmoss: ./script/bootstrap
14:40	benmoss	cool, thanks
14:46	cYmen	Hm...how do I tell filter to stop on the first non-match? Basically how do I make (filter #(< % 100) (range)) not run forever? :)
14:47	S11001001	cYmen: use take-while, not filter
14:47	cYmen	thanks
14:47	cYmen	This may be a good point to ask how to properly search for functions?
14:47	cemerick	gah, that search for js files that contain goog.provide is too clever for anyone's good :-P
14:48	S11001001	cYmen: cheat sheets, source of core.clj
14:48	rasmusto	cYmen: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
14:48	cemerick	dnolen: Re: filesystem and classpath, oooh yes. :libs is gnarly, and I'd very much like to "fix" it, for some definition thereof we can agree on. The system property lookup is the biggest WTF IMO https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/closure.clj#L146
14:48	cYmen	thanks
14:50	cemerick	That'll keep javascript files from being picked up anytime the compiler is running in any env using classloaders for anything, e.g. via pomegranate, in immutant, etc.
14:50	cYmen	Hm...How do I memoize a recursive function?
14:51	justin_smith	cYmen: (memoize (fn f-name [...] .... (f-name ...)))
14:52	cYmen	That works? :o
14:52	justin_smith	yeah, you can give a name to an fn
14:52	S11001001	though you won't get memos for the subcalls
14:52	cYmen	Yeah, but how does it know to replace the inner calls to f-name with calls to the memoized version?
14:52	S11001001	it doesn't
14:52	cYmen	S11001001: ah :)
14:54	cYmen	I'm not picky...can it be done using declare or something?
14:54	Bronsa	if you def it it should work though (def x (memoize (fn [] .. (x))))
14:54	S11001001	cYmen: I think the obvious way would work
14:54	S11001001	as Bronsa says
14:56	hiredman	Bronsa: that won't work
14:56	hiredman	oh, sorry it will
14:56	hiredman	too fast, I am thinking of defn
15:01	jcrossley3	cemerick: dnolen: there is https://github.com/tobias/dynapath, but ideally clojure/java.classpath would subsume it.
15:01	cemerick	jcrossley3: we don't even need that; it should just be enumerating all resources from the context classloader, done.
15:02	jcrossley3	cemerick: i c
15:04	jkkramer	seancorfield: ping
15:09	Morgawr	http://havamal.morgawr.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=bc281860de4b911431db2e8c628c745d woo finally it arrived :D
15:09	Jarda	dnolen: so I need to actually snail mail the contributor agreement to rich hickey? :)
15:10	Jarda	dnolen: re: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-536
15:11	dnolen	Jarda: yep
15:12	Jarda	ok, so I'll just find me an envelope and drop it in a box. No idea when it might reach rich though :)
15:12	dnolen	cemerick: I don't get understand the point of that code
15:13	dnolen	Jarda: they processed by Cognitect
15:13	dnolen	get processed
15:13	cemerick	dnolen: it's walking all jars in the classpath finding javascript files that contain goog.provide and/or goog.require
15:14	cemerick	going about it in a very failure-prone way, but that's what it's doing
15:14	dnolen	cemerick: yes but I'm confused why it needs to do this
15:15	cemerick	dnolen: Hrm, not sure how far up the chain to go. :-) Necessary in order to load javascript libraries via (:require) et al., fold them into optimization, etc.
15:16	dnolen	cemerick: it doesn't seem neccessary for js lib loaded via :require to me.
15:17	cemerick	dnolen: how else would it find the source of the file to fold into optimization given (:require foo.bar)?
15:17	dnolen	cemerick: actual goog libs are organized in dirs based on their namespace
15:17	cemerick	ah
15:18	dnolen	(io/resource "goog/base.js")
15:18	cemerick	sure
15:18	dnolen	cemerick: for everything else you have a direct file ref
15:18	dnolen	i.e. :libs
15:19	cemerick	dnolen: well, I've taken some non-goog libs and made them goog-capable, but didn't want to disturb the upstream file organization, so the goog.provide discovery was very useful
15:19	cemerick	I've been going on the assumption that you simply can't expect anything in particular w.r.t. js file/project organization, so the discovery made sense to me when I saw it.
15:19	dnolen	cemerick: this falls into :libs :foreign-libs, I don't see the problem here
15:19	dnolen	or why we need to walk jars like that
15:21	cemerick	dnolen: :foreign-libs is simply a PITA, and are impossible to distribute with a library to downstream consumers. It's not a useful mechanism except for Application development.
15:22	dnolen	cemerick: ok, it seems to me because of :libs we don't need jar walking
15:22	cemerick	dnolen: you mean, you think direct filesystem references are sufficient?
15:23	dnolen	cemerick: yes, for goog and cljs stuff we already have a sane layout
15:23	dnolen	cemerick: for other random goog style stuff, :libs does the job
15:23	dnolen	I see no use case for jar walking except convenience probably best handled elsewhere
15:23	cemerick	gotta stop saying just :libs, since it implies classpath/jar walking :-P
15:25	dnolen	cemerick: sorry I'm not familiar with the closure.clj convenience details, are you saying it walks to jar to attempt to find the lib you specified?
15:26	cemerick	dnolen: ah, also, even libs with goog-style file layout on the classpath aren't loaded based on the name. That only applies to libs shipped as part of Closure itself.
15:26	dnolen	cemerick: like what?
15:27	cemerick	dnolen: i.e. if you put foo/bar/baz.js on your classpath, a (:require foo.bar.baz) would not bring in that js file, even if it had a goog.provide("foo.bar.baz")
15:27	seancorfield	jkkramer: you rang sir?
15:28	dnolen	cemerick: seems like something easily fixed
15:28	dnolen	cemerick: and it probably should be
15:29	jkkramer	seancorfield: is the vec call here necessary? seems like it prevents results from being processed lazily when :as-arrays? option is given https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L647
15:30	Jarda	hmmm. btw has someone been able to use goog.net.XhrIo to send multipart form posts (file uploads)
15:31	spacefugitive	can someone give me some feedback on my specs - why does it only run my last spec? Should I be writing my specs differently ? https://www.refheap.com/20377 (my first clojure program)
15:32	jkkramer	seancorfield: this was a theoretical concern for me when writing a lib based on java.jdbc, but looks like someone may have run into it for real: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19728538/clojure-java-jdbc-query-large-resultset-lazily
15:32	seancorfield	jkkramer: that's by design if you ask for arrays - you'd have to check the original JIRA issue for why
15:33	cemerick	dnolen: so you're suggesting: (1) load goog-style js files from where they "should" be on the classpath, (2) make :libs support complete filesystem paths only?
15:33	seancorfield	and remember that by default (query ..) uses doall anyway to realize the result set before the connection is closed
15:34	seancorfield	if you want a lazy result set, you must a) keep your connection open long enough yourself and b) not use as-arrays? - by design
15:35	dnolen	cemerick: yes, the other thing I would like to nuke - walking the directory putting all cljs source into the build.
15:36	dnolen	cemerick: really we should specify a main file and dependencies should be solved based on the entry point.
15:36	cemerick	ah
15:36	cemerick	I don't think I have any opinions on that
15:36	cemerick	dnolen: is there any harm in the sources walk?
15:37	jkkramer	seancorfield: ok, i'll see if i can find the case. that seems less than ideal, though. that means it's impossible to process results lazily AND guarantee preserved column order (or avoid overhead of map processing)
15:37	hiredman	cemerick: there are a lot of assumptions built in to that
15:37	cemerick	hiredman: do enlighten me
15:37	hiredman	cemerick: given ClassLoader, how can that be done efficiently?
15:38	seancorfield	jkkramer: i'm open to tickets / patches offering better alternatives
15:38	dnolen	cemerick: it's just doesn't make much sense, files get revisited over and over again for analysis and compilation
15:38	seancorfield	but remember that (query ..) is generally "atomic" in that you call it (with a db-spec) and you get a result (and the connection is closed)
15:39	cemerick	hiredman: oh, you're talking about the classpath walk?
15:39	cemerick	dnolen: Yeah, ok. I'll make some issues enumerating the things-to-be-done.
15:39	hiredman	cemerick: it seems to me they are connected, if you have a proper graph of requires you don't walk
15:40	hiredman	uh, walk isn't the right word
15:40	hiredman	you don't try and scan everything on the classpath
15:40	cemerick	hiredman: well, I think we just agreed to ditch the classpath walk entirely, and assume goog/java/clojure-style layout
15:41	hiredman	cemerick: ok
15:42	jkkramer	seancorfield: right, understood; i'll look over the issues when i get a chance. so far it's not causing me any problems personally
15:42	hiredman	I don't really clojurescript and people presuming things about classloaders is just a peeve of mine
15:46	loliveira	hi. does somebody know how to use the clause in with clojure.jdbc?
15:46	cemerick	hiredman: then you shouldn't look at what's being done now :-)
15:48	hiredman	cemerick: I avoid looking at things for exactly that reason
15:49	hiredman	it is just going to upset me, and I don't have enough energy to do anything about it
15:49	jkkramer	seancorfield: even with the default doall for result-set-fn, it's calling (doall (cons (first rs) (vec (map row-fn (rest rs))))), making the vec superfluous, no?
15:49	Jarda	anyone used cucumber with clojure? In my clojure step definition files, should I use atoms for shared state between steps?
15:51	hiredman	I rewrote the clojure part of cucumber-jvm once, because I thought I might use it and made the mistake of looking under the hood, and after rewriting and opening a pr I never ended up using it
15:51	seancorfield	jkkramer: please read the specific JIRA ticket that introduced as-arrays? for the justification for this - users specifically wanted a vector result
15:51	seancorfield	you could argue the doall is superfluous for as-arrays? (but since it can be overridden by users, it could be anything)
15:51	Jarda	hiredman: yeah I'm not interested what's there under the hood :)
15:52	edoloughlin	I upgraded leiningen (2.3.?) and now it's looking for a boot.clj in my classpath. This is a ring/compojure project. How do I tell it to use core.clj? I can't find a reference to boot.clj from google.
15:52	jkkramer	seancorfield: seems like if they want a vector, they can ask for one with :result-set-fn. calling vec explicitly prevents any other choice
15:52	hiredman	Jarda: sure, I am just using it as an example of looking and being upset, and the outcome of that
15:52	hiredman	wheel spinning and nothing useful
15:54	amalloy	spacefugitive: i'm not familiar with whatever testing lib you're using, but it's probably the case that "it" and "should" are not side-effecting, but just produce a function or something, which describe uses. (let [...] x y z) evals x, then y, then z, then returns z; so unless x and y have some side effects, it's the same as (let [...] z)
15:56	amalloy	additionally, as a style pointer, it is never the correct style to have a line containing only closing delimiters like ), ], or }: they should all just bunch up together on the same line
15:56	spacefugitive	Thats amalloy , thats very helpful, I figured that was happening since I posted. I am using speclj.
15:56	spacefugitive	*Thanks
15:58	ohcibi	hi i want to iterate over a list working with 3 elements in each loop.. so the first loop should use the last, the first and the second element, the second loop the first the second and the third, and so on.. i'm thinking about (map-indexed) and then (get) the neighbors of the current element from the list.. but it feels kinda ugly.. anyone has an idea how to do this "nice"? 8-)
15:58	amalloy	so for your current example, i would just pull the describe inside of both lets, so that it reads (let ... (let ... (describe (it ...) (it ...))))
15:58	amalloy	which looks like what speclj wants
15:59	algal	Hi. Does anyone happen to know if there's a ring adapter that lets you serve some routes as plain HTTP, while wrapping others in SSL so they are served over HTTPS?
16:00	spacefugitive	amalloy : awesome. Thanks! Also for the style tip !
16:00	algal	The ordinary ring-jetty-adapter seems to be all or nothing, but the underlying jetty library seems to support this by allowing one Server to handle multiple Connectors..
16:00	llasram	edoloughlin: boot.clj isn't a file which is normally handled specially. Something in your project.clj or profiles.clj must be referencing it / a namespsace ending in `boot`
16:00	amalloy	ohcibi: ##(partition 3 1 '(a b c d e))
16:00	lazybot	⇒ ((a b c) (b c d) (c d e))
16:00	spacefugitive	I was just duplicating my inits - this is much better thanks!
16:01	ohcibi	amalloy: i'm stunned
16:03	ohcibi	amalloy: the two ## are syntax for the bot, right?
16:03	amalloy	indeed
16:05	rasmusto	ohcibi: #(partition 2 1 %) and I are good friends
16:07	Raynes	cemerick: You know, I still have that Postbox bug that causes all of my emails to have your picture attached to them.
16:07	Raynes	This has been going on for like 8 months.
16:08	cemerick	postbox?
16:08	Raynes	$google postbox email client
16:08	lazybot	[Postbox — Awesome Email] http://www.postbox-inc.com/
16:08	cemerick	Raynes: I'm there with you, always.
16:08	Raynes	It's an otherwise fairly spectacular email client
16:08	Raynes	But it just really likes to put your face on everything I get.
16:08	amalloy	plot twist: cemerick has hacked your mail client and has been intercepting and re-authoring every message you receive
16:08	cemerick	I wish I were so leet.
16:08	Raynes	Not that your face is unpleasant. It's just that sometimes I like to see other people's faces.
16:08	cemerick	traitor
16:09	cemerick	bummer its only mac/win
16:09	Raynes	Yeah. It's a nice alternative to thunderbird which is mostly unsupported these days.
16:09	Raynes	It's actually a fork of it iirc.
16:09	cemerick	oh? Been using thunderbird for some months, updates seem to come along at a reasonable clip.
16:10	TimMc	cemerick: I stopped using Thunderbird when it started corrupting my mail.
16:10	Raynes	"On July 6, 2012, a confidential memo from Jb Piacentino, the Thunderbird Managing Director at Mozilla, was leaked and published to TechCrunch.[27] The memo indicated that Mozilla would be moving some of the team off the project and further development of new features would be left up to the community. The memo was slated for release on July 9, 2012. A subsequent article by the Mozilla Foundation Chair, Mitchell Baker, stated Mozilla's decision to
16:10	Raynes	make a transition of Thunderbird to a new release and governance model"
16:10	Raynes	cemerick: ^
16:10	TimMc	Claws is slow and cranky but it stores each email as a separate file.
16:11	amalloy	cemerick: for srs? i've been using thunderbird for years, and for a year or two it's been telling me it's unsupported
16:11	llasram	Emacs gnus 4eva
16:11	muhoo	mutt ftw
16:11	lazybot	Woof!
16:11	muhoo	haha
16:11	seancorfield	jkkramer: as-arrays? returns a completely different format result and was a common enough request that it should be in the library as a native format
16:11	amalloy	haha yes. gotta be the first time anyone's ever triggered that easter egg
16:12	seancorfield	remember: you do not have to use as-arrays? if you want different behavior!
16:12	cemerick	amalloy: dunno, I just get update notifications with all the other ubuntu stuff
16:12	seancorfield	but, yes, one of the key aspects of as-arrays? is guaranteed column order (which is why it needs to be native in the library)
16:12	Raynes	ls
16:12	lazybot	bin boot dev etc lib lost+found opt src swap
16:12	jcrossley3	llasram: +1 for gnus
16:12	jkkramer	seancorfield: i'm not sure how that relates. i prefer to use as-arrays myself, but i don't think realizing all results should be necessary to do so. the vec call forces full realization regardless of the :result-set-fn
16:12	Raynes	$botsnack
16:12	lazybot	Raynes: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
16:13	seancorfield	again, (query ..) is deliberatly not lazy by default so that it can manage the connections internally
16:13	seancorfield	you can't return a lazy result and still close the connection
16:13	jkkramer	seancorfield: i understand results must be processed within the scope of the connection, but realizing all results at once should not be necessary
16:14	jkkramer	the vec call forces all results to be realized regardless of :result-set-fn
16:14	seancorfield	if you don't want that behavior, don't use as-arrays? and pass in your "work" as a row-fn
16:15	seancorfield	as-arrays? is new behavior, added specifically for users who wanted that behavior
16:16	jkkramer	seancorfield: then you must process maps, which is superfluous work and doesn't preserve order
16:17	zerokarmaleft	ohcibi: looking a bit more closely at the loop you described earlier...I think you actually want something like ##(let [v [:a :b :c :d :e]] (partition 3 1 (take (count v) (drop (dec (count v)) (cycle v)))))
16:17	lazybot	⇒ ((:e :a :b) (:a :b :c) (:b :c :d))
16:18	edoloughlin	llasram: Thanks. I think there might be a problem with my project config...
16:20	dobry-den	Is there a way to refer to a symbol that has no root binding because it's supplied by the user when the func is invoked?
16:20	dobry-den	or would you just declare nil root bindings for such vars in the ns where such a func exists
16:20	ohcibi	zerokarmaleft: the number of partitions must be equal to the number of elements in the vector, so something is wrong... c,d,e and d,e,a are missing
16:21	dobry-den	for instance, I have funcs that expect host and port to be bound when they're invoked by the user
16:21	ohcibi	zerokarmaleft: i just (flatten [(last list) list (first list)])
16:21	amalloy	dobry-den: so far everything you've described works fine
16:22	zerokarmaleft	ohcibi: ##(let [v [:a :b :c :d :e]] (take (count v) (partition 3 1 (drop (dec (count v)) (cycle v)))))
16:22	dobry-den	amalloy: I just realized that I believe this is what declare is for
16:22	lazybot	⇒ ((:e :a :b) (:a :b :c) (:b :c :d) (:c :d :e) (:d :e :a))
16:22	dobry-den	amalloy: (declare ^:dynamic host, ^:dynamic port)
16:23	amalloy	ohcibi: in many states, using flatten is considered devil-worship
16:23	llasram	dobry-den: Or just `def` 'em to `nil`
16:23	ohcibi	amalloy: how come?
16:23	amalloy	~flatten
16:23	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
16:24	amalloy	in your example, suppose your list were, instead of '(a b c d e), actually '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3) (d 4) (e 5))
16:25	ohcibi	amalloy: i see your point, but the function that deals with flatten only takes list with atomic elements...
16:26	ohcibi	amalloy: you'd say i should (concat [(last list)] list [(first list)])?
16:26	amalloy	sure, that's a fine choice
16:26	amalloy	or use cycle and take like zerokarmaleft suggested
16:27	amalloy	like, why write your function with flatten, which makes your function brittle and forms bad habits, when so many convenient and correct approaches exist?
16:41	TimMc	&(flatten 17)
16:41	lazybot	⇒ ()
16:43	TimMc	If flatten didn't have that call to rest, I think that would work as expected.
16:43	TimMc	&(filter (complement sequential?) (tree-seq sequential? seq [[[17]]6]))
16:43	lazybot	⇒ (17 6)
16:43	TimMc	&(filter (complement sequential?) (tree-seq sequential? seq 17))
16:43	lazybot	⇒ (17)
16:48	hiredman	flatten is just bad, so don't use it and don't change the behaviour, just leave it laying there rusting
16:49	hiredman	dead to you as those who use it are dead to me
16:56	stuartsierra	Is there actually a bug in `flatten`?
16:57	hiredman	if you don't use it, does it matter?
17:00	mikerod	sounds like the "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?" argument :)
17:01	mikerod	ironically, anything the tree falls on would be flattened too
17:04	jared314	i read somewhere you can connect to an nrepl server with telnet. Is this still true?
17:06	justin_smith	jared314: you can, but you have to send a very specific kind of message to make it do anything interesting
17:07	jared314	justin_smith: message format or encoding?
17:07	justin_smith	format, it expects a map literal iirc
17:08	justin_smith	it just disconnects if it doesn't understand what you are sending, no error message
17:08	justin_smith	lein repl :connect is much easier
17:09	jared314	i'm trying trying to write my first nrepl middleware so I actually want to know that format
17:10	jared314	i tried a map literal with keyword and quoted strings, nothing
17:11	justin_smith	jared314: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl this page has an example
17:12	justin_smith	{:op "eval" :code "\"hello\
17:12	justin_smith	")
17:12	justin_smith	hit return too soon
17:13	jared314	tried that first
17:14	jared314	it doesn't close, but it doesn't respond either
17:14	jared314	does lein repl allow a tty transport?
17:20	justin_smith	jared314: you can launch an nrepl from your app and specify tty
17:20	justin_smith	also, it looks like middleware are expected to take and return those maps with :op and such in them
17:24	algal	Are there any clojure-specific issues to be aware of, when it JVM options for what's supposed to be a long-running ring app?
17:27	justin_smith	set aside plenty of permgen, clojure makes lots of little classes
17:27	justin_smith	there is probably more
17:28	algal	justin_smith: Thanks. I know zero about JVM tuning so every pointer is helpful.
17:34	mikerod	calling `str` on a lazyseq gave me "clojure.lang.LazySeq@f2143067"
17:34	mikerod	I would have expected that to always cause the lazy seq to be realized instead, hmm
17:36	jared314	mikerod: you need to use apply
17:36	mikerod	actually, I guess that makes no sense, have to seq or something first
17:36	swarthy	@mikerod, @jared314 beat me to it
17:36	mikerod	thanks, makes sense. don't know what I was thinking
17:37	justin_smith	sometimes pr-str works better
17:37	jared314	or just reduce with str
17:37	justin_smith	pr-str has the advantage that it can work on collections or individual values
17:37	justin_smith	,(pr-str 8)
17:37	clojurebot	"8"
17:37	justin_smith	,(apply str 8)
17:37	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
17:38	jared314	,(pr-str (range 1 5))
17:38	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4)"
17:38	jared314	,(apply str (range 1 5))
17:38	clojurebot	"1234"
17:38	justin_smith	so yeah, often pr-str is better in my experience
17:38	notofi	Is there a function already for assoc'ing ONE value to a bunch of keys?
17:39	justin_smith	(apply assoc m (interpose keys (repeatedly val))) maybe?
17:40	notofi	. (apply assoc {} (interleave [:a :b :c :d] (repeat 1)))
17:40	notofi	, (apply assoc {} (interleave [:a :b :c :d] (repeat 1)))
17:40	clojurebot	{:d 1, :c 1, :b 1, :a 1}
17:41	nightfly	, 2
17:41	clojurebot	2
17:41	notofi	I thought that maybe there is a function that already does this
17:47	dnolen	,(zipmap [:a :b :c :d] (repeat 1))
17:47	clojurebot	{:d 1, :c 1, :b 1, :a 1}
17:53	Raynes	cemerick: I don't have a lawn. Joke is on you.
17:54	cemerick	Raynes: stone frontice, whatever you west-coasters do
17:56	leif-p	I'm trying to figure out how to make batch inserts go faster using c.j.jdbc. Inserting the same rows takes korma < 1s, c.j.jdbc ~50s. Anybody ever run into this, and have a workaround?
17:59	benmoss	is anyone here have vim-fireplace expertise?
17:59	benmoss	*does
18:01	amalloy	~anyone
18:01	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
18:02	Apage43	benmoss: I use it
18:02	Apage43	what up?
18:49	biggbear	(= java.lang.Integer (type 1)) -> false
18:50	mtp	(type 1)
18:50	mtp	,(type 1)
18:50	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
18:54	ta479	is clojure faster than scala for functional programming? Does it do more optimizations with purity?
18:55	mtp	try it and see?
18:55	mtp	define "faster"
18:55	mtp	define optimization
18:55	mtp	what is your workload?
18:56	mtp	in short, you are asking a misleading question and i have no context with which to answer
18:56	ta479	no mutating variables
18:56	ta479	optimizations done by the compiler when optimizing that
18:57	ta479	in scala, lists won't be fused so a double filter takes twice as long as a filter with the predicate fused
18:57	ta479	because scalac can't be certain side effects won't factor in
18:58	ta479	what's clojure's situation?
18:59	bbloom	that particular optimization is known as "stream fusion"
19:00	bbloom	clojure's core lazy sequence primitives do chunking, which is a different, but related optimization
19:00	bbloom	however, the clojure.reducers does something similar to stream fusion & better
19:00	bbloom	see http://clojure.com/blog/2012/05/08/reducers-a-library-and-model-for-collection-processing.html
19:01	bbloom	compare with GHC's http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.0.1/html/users_guide/rewrite-rules.html
19:01	ta479	so do you know if FP clojure is faster than FP scala?
19:01	bbloom	ta479: i won't even attempt to answer that question
19:02	gws	tell me more about imperative clojure
19:02	bitemyapp	ta479: silly question.
19:11	xuser	ta479: Scala is faster obviously, its on pair with Java
19:11	beppu	s/pair/par/
19:12	xuser	beppu: thanks
19:12	xuser	ta479: the reason is the Scala compiler generates Java bytecode
19:12	xuser
19:13	llasram	...
19:13	llasram	Um, what do you think the Clojure compile does?
19:14	llasram	compiler, even
19:14	Raynes	xuser: The fact that Clojure code isn't usually compiled ahead of time isn't really a huge performance factor.
19:15	Raynes	xuser: You can make the Clojure compiler compile to bytecode ahead of time, but it always gets compiled to bytecode, even if it is on the fly.
19:15	xuser	llasram: ^^
19:15	xuser	was referring to that
19:15	Raynes	It still isn't as big a factor as you think it is.
19:16	cYmen	I'm trying to generate an integer range with end included. Is there something more idiomatic than (range (+ 7 0.1))?
19:16	Raynes	You can write Clojure code that is on par or close to it. The problem is that that code is unpleasant to read, write, and work with a lot of the time.
19:19	xuser	Raynes: oh ok, I though that was huge performance hit actually, the big performance hit is on startup then?
19:20	Apage43	hm
19:20	Raynes	Startup time is a problem, yes, but still not the reason Clojure isn't usually as fast as Java. There are lots of things that go into that.
19:20	Apage43	how can I test if something is a byte array?
19:20	Apage43	,(into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])
19:21	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1bfc699>
19:21	Apage43	got one of those, want to make sure that's what i have
19:21	Raynes	Reflection (which can usually be eliminated with type hints for sometimes substantial speed improvements), and while persistent immutable data structures are blazing fast, sometimes mutating an array is faster.
19:22	Raynes	The reason Clojure isn't usually as fast as Java is because people don't want to write the Clojure code necessary to make it as fast as Java, because it tends to chip away at the benefits of using Clojure instead of Java in the first place.
19:23	xuser	Raynes: you mean like non idiomatic Clojure code?
19:23	Raynes	Yes.
19:23	xuser	or calling Java a lot
19:23	bitemyapp	xuser: writing fast Clojure code typically means avoiding clojure.lang.RT and using hot-loops with tight data structures.
19:23	bitemyapp	it can end up being on par with or faster than Java at that scope.
19:23	Raynes	dnolen has a blog post on what bitemyapp just said.
19:23	bitemyapp	it won't be faster than java in the more abstract code, but who cares?
19:23	Raynes	And goes as far as to call it 'idiomatic' because all mutation occurs in an isolated environment.
19:24	`cbp	Apage43: type?
19:24	Raynes	And I don't really disagree.
19:24	bitemyapp	I'm meh on that. Haskell users do the same thing and box their mutation in with monads.
19:24	bitemyapp	the compiler output is tight either way.
19:24	Raynes	schmir: Piiiiing
19:24	Apage43	`cbp: i went and read byte-streams. It grabs the result of (class (byte-array 0)) and then uses instance?
19:25	Apage43	=P
19:25	`cbp	,(= (Class/forName "[B") (type (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])))
19:25	clojurebot	true
19:26	Apage43	(let [byte-array-class (class (byte-array 0))] (instance? byte-array-class (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])))
19:26	Apage43	,(let [byte-array-class (class (byte-array 0))] (instance? byte-array-class (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])))
19:26	clojurebot	true
19:26	Apage43	rather
19:26	`cbp	if it works it works
19:26	Apage43	Either works, I guess
19:26	gws	Apage43: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14796964/how-to-check-if-a-clojure-object-is-a-byte-array
19:27	xuser	Raynes: bitemyapp: thanks
19:28	Raynes	I'm so sorry.
19:28	Apage43	thx
19:28	`cbp	bitemyapp: hi! You think we could get a release out this weekend?
19:28	Apage43	this is not the first time i've written this >.>
19:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: if my drinking last night doesn't finish killing me, sure.
19:29	`cbp	:-(
19:29	bitemyapp	`cbp: I've got a pretty bad headache. I'm pondering retry logic right now.
19:29	Apage43	but the first time was like > 3 years ago and I don't have it handy anymore
19:31	`cbp	bitemyapp: okies. Most of the rdb api is implemented and passes tests now, just 1-2 with odd results + the time stuff is a bit weird. If you could spare a minute sometime to check those failing tests that'd be awesome
19:31	bitemyapp	`cbp: hum. connections branch or master?
19:31	`cbp	bitemyapp: connections
19:31	bitemyapp	hokey-dokey.
19:33	`cbp	The time stuff fails because it compares 1.2123123123E9 vs 1.2123123123E9 (written)
19:38	xuser	Raynes: bitemyapp: so clojure.jar calls javac?
19:38	Raynes	javac compiles java to jvm bytecode.
19:38	Raynes	Clojure.jar compiles Clojure to JVM bytecode.
19:38	Raynes	Java is not an intermediate step.
19:41	xuser	Raynes: so it doesn't really compiles Clojure to JVM bytecode but calls the bytecode in clojure.jar as it parses a clojure source code right?
19:44	S11001001	xuser: it compiles to jvm bytecode
19:46	S11001001	xuser: for realsies
19:47	xuser	S11001001: interesting, so clojure.jar actually produces java bytecode from java bytecode
19:47	S11001001	it produces java bytecode from clojure source code
19:48	S11001001	there is no intermediate step!
19:48	llasram	xuser: Try playing around some with ASM
19:48	S11001001	as Raynes and bitemyapp mentioned, slowness typically comes from the fact that the JVM penalizes good practice and rewards bad practice. Everything else is the same.
19:49	xuser	S11001001: yeah, what I mean is the clojure compiler clojure.jar which is in java bytecode is use to produce java bytecode from clojure source
19:50	xuser	S11001001: is that right?
19:51	S11001001	xuser: yeah, but javac is no different in that regard
19:51	xuser	llasram: yeah, that would probably help
19:54	bja	I think I need a pending state for my user interface
19:54	bja	something after the user interacts, but before the server responds
19:59	xuser	S11001001: yeah, I though producing the bytecode on the fly was the big performance issue
20:05	xuser	S11001001: Raynes: bitemyapp: thanks for clearing up this for me ;)
20:05	allenj12	hey does anyone know a good prop logic library i can use?
20:14	ta479	xuser: I don't think functional scala is very fast. Imperative scala is on par with java but I think clojure does better FP optimization
20:17	xuser	ta479: yeah, I was confused, I though clojure code was interpreted by clojure.jar but clojure.jar is a actually a compiler
20:17	xuser	ta479: maybe is has to with the JVM being tuned for Java
20:17	ta479	I don't really care for startup performance, just runtime performance
20:18	xuser	ta479: altough I don't know how much of a penalty is incurred by producing bytecode on the fly, Raynes says is not really much
20:29	ta479	no state of clojure 2013 survey?
20:45	xeqi	ta479: I believe cemerick is planning to do one soon
20:52	bbloom	xuser: it's created on the fly when the code is loaded not run
20:53	bbloom	it's practically zero time for a server application & since most folkss do incremental live coding w/ a repl, it's a total non-issue for all major use cases
20:55	Morgawr	is it possible to have an atom inside an agent? does it make sense to do so? I know agent communication is asynchronous and I have no guarantee on how immediate an action can be performed on an agent (only that it's going to be ordered)
20:55	tbaldridge	Morgawr: everything can be inside everything (when it comes to clojure), but like you said, probably not a good idea
20:55	Morgawr	so I was thinking, since atoms are immediate (as in, not queued), would it make sense to store an atom inside an agent's state and then swap! that atom for instant communication/state-change?
20:57	Morgawr	tbaldridge: the only difference between atoms and agents is that with atoms you atomically change the state of some shared data in a concurrent way
20:57	Morgawr	whereas for agents you have a separate thread change that state, right?
20:58	Morgawr	is there a way to have an agent act like an atom?
20:59	xuser	bbloom: yeah, saw that in http://clojure.org/compilation , thanks
21:03	bbloom	Morgawr: take a step back and describe your goal, not some hypothetical solution to a problem you decided you have :-)
21:03	xuser	bbloom: interesting to see their are plans for a clojure compiler in clojure http://clojure.org/todo
21:04	bbloom	xuser: that's pretty old. clojurescript came out of it & there are several projects in project to produce a selfhosted compiler. Bronsa's is most promising
21:05	seangrove	bbloom: Oh? I thought clojurescript-in-clojurescript was where the selfhosted compiler was most likely to come out of
21:05	Morgawr	bbloom: the idea is that I am designing a situation where I have a lot of independent threads operating on a lot of independent data structures (like the Hickey's ant simulation) and I am using agents to do so
21:05	seangrove	Building on all of Bronsa's work, of course
21:05	Morgawr	agents receive functions to manipulate their data independently in a totally asynchronous way
21:05	Morgawr	however agents have to queue events
21:05	bbloom	seangrove: shrug either which way. it's not an official project & the direction is in flux
21:06	biggbear	how to execute multiple tasks in the body of a function "(defn fun [] ((task1)(task2)(tark3)))"
21:06	Morgawr	and sometimes I need to issue "immediate" events (imagine a soft realtime simulation)
21:06	Morgawr	(events are just data transforms)
21:06	bbloom	ah, i see. you have both async AND synch events?
21:06	Morgawr	ideally everything should be async
21:06	Morgawr	so that's not a problem
21:06	Morgawr	but for some stuff (like collision detection for example in a videogame) it needs a fast response
21:06	bbloom	but you want a priority queue?
21:06	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, I thought it was dead for awhile, and it looks like it's diverged hugely, but the talk he gave a few months back seemed like he had basically done everything (more or less) and intended to try to get it back into master
21:06	Morgawr	bbloom: yes, exactly
21:07	Morgawr	a priority queue is exactly the idea
21:07	Morgawr	like a priority queue for agent events
21:07	bbloom	is your game genuinely multithreaded with concurrent processes like that? what's MUCH MUCH MORE COMMON is to have task parallelism, where you ahve one master thread that does scatter/gather on tasks to workers
21:07	bbloom	and does things like physics in parallel
21:07	Morgawr	I remember somebody in here wrote this https://gist.github.com/halgari/7028120 when talking to me as a way to emulate clojure agents using core.async, maybe a priority queue with this might be a cool idea
21:08	Morgawr	bbloom: I'm planning to write a "simple" game engine/proof of concept for a fully multithreaded game
21:08	bbloom	usually C++ bases games achieve that sort of thing by block-copying large arrays of data structures & giving each parallel process an isolated world. like "here's all my physics matrices" and "here's all my game state"
21:08	Morgawr	as in, each single entity is an independent agent
21:08	bbloom	you're probably better off having a single thread WITHOUT AN ATOM that's literally just a normal loop w/ the state in it
21:08	bbloom	then sending off work and having the master thread block for multiple clients
21:09	bbloom	multiple workers* rather
21:09	bbloom	instead of trying to shove everything in to atoms or agents
21:09	Morgawr	I'm going for a different approach though, I'm trying to abstract away from the idea of a fixed update loop with a synchronized update step
21:09	Morgawr	(not sure if it's a good idea or not, yet, it's going to be fun)
21:09	Morgawr	trying to follow Hickey's idea that the world shouldn't stop just because we ask it to
21:09	bbloom	well surely your rendering has to be a loop of some kind right?
21:10	Morgawr	agents take care of themselves and then there's two priority threads, one for rendering and one for sending "tick" events to agents
21:10	Morgawr	yeah rendering is its standalone threads
21:10	Morgawr	queries all the agents and runs a rendering function on them
21:10	bbloom	and surely your physics happens on a time step too, right?
21:10	Morgawr	that one I still need to decide, technically yes
21:10	bbloom	so all your game objects are the agents?
21:10	Morgawr	the idea is yes
21:10	Morgawr	all game objects are agents
21:11	Morgawr	some are physical entities too so they are affected by a physics standalone/priority thread (like rendering or updating)
21:11	Morgawr	and I'd need to make sure those entities receive "immediate" (or pseudo-immediate) response
21:11	bbloom	i think you're much better off sticking everything in one big atom & then writing a very simple message dispatch system
21:11	Morgawr	but agents != message dispatch
21:12	Morgawr	agents make sure that the events are executed independently and in an ordered fashion in their own thread
21:12	Morgawr	which is exactly what I want
21:12	bbloom	except it's not, b/c you need to synchronize some message types
21:12	bbloom	agents embody a queue, but that implies the sender has no control once the message is queued
21:12	Morgawr	the idea is, if I have an agent like (agent { :something 0 :something-else 1 :atom (atom { :data "whatever" }) })
21:12	xuser	bbloom: Bronsa's is this one? http://clojure.github.io/tools.emitter.jvm/
21:13	bbloom	you have some central authority, and so you should implement it explicitly
21:13	Morgawr	then I can retrieve the "atom" compoent of that agent, right?
21:13	bbloom	xuser: https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC
21:13	bbloom	Morgawr: right, i understand what you're trying to do, but i'm saying you'd be much better off to be able to call deref ONCE and get "the state of the world"
21:13	Morgawr	the state of the world is just composed of multiple independent agents
21:14	bbloom	but what happens when you want to save the world state?
21:14	Morgawr	I mean, I know what you're trying to say bbloom and I agree with you, but I am trying to go in another direction and see what happens
21:14	bbloom	you need to walk each agent & then save it
21:14	bbloom	you also need to save it's queue
21:14	bbloom	agents are not magic
21:14	Morgawr	saving the world state is just taking a "snapshot" of the current world
21:14	bbloom	if you need something that is sorta like agents, but isn't, then you can implement your variant
21:14	Morgawr	as in, I don't care about events that haven't been processed yet
21:15	Morgawr	yeah, I guess
21:15	bbloom	but then you're going to get dropped messages, if you save/reload
21:15	bbloom	which everything will need to account for
21:15	Morgawr	that's a good point, but... does it matter? saving should only save the current state of the world and the resume/load function should take care to make it consistent
21:16	bbloom	the question is: are messages in flight part of the world?
21:16	Morgawr	even in traditional game engines you don't just save the current state of the game, you just save a loadable representation of that data
21:16	Morgawr	no
21:16	bbloom	i'd agree with you that their not... but only in a loop-based model
21:16	bbloom	if you don't have "frames" so to speak, then there is no point in time you can break and say "the world is consistent without queued messages"
21:16	bbloom	you would never be able to prove that property of your system
21:16	Morgawr	you raise a good point
21:17	bbloom	if you processed all messages every frame, you could discard them all and save the PREVIOUS frame
21:17	Morgawr	the thing is... is it really a problem? answer: I don't really know :V
21:17	bbloom	btw, i make a good point b/c i've implemented save-anywhere in real games before ;-)
21:17	bbloom	it's hard.
21:17	bbloom	and holy hell do i wish i had clojure then!
21:17	Morgawr	the thing is, if we wanted to "save" the game then we could broadcast a "save" event to all agents
21:17	Morgawr	once those agents receive that "save" event then we know that they can be shut down
21:17	Morgawr	because agents have ordered events
21:18	Morgawr	hence their event queue has been processed up to that point
21:18	bbloom	how do you know when everybody is done saving? you need coordination
21:18	Morgawr	I mean, it might need to take care of a few thing but that'd be the gist of it
21:18	Morgawr	you drop down to a coordinated model
21:18	Morgawr	as in, you can always read instantly the state of an agent
21:18	Morgawr	you only need to send a message to change its state
21:19	bbloom	what i'm suggesting is that you start with a coordinated model, since even if you had 10,000 threads an atom could handle it fine & then you build a simple ansynchronous system on top of that
21:19	bbloom	it's really quite easy to build some worker loops, especially if you use core.async
21:19	Morgawr	coordinated models are boring :P the idea is to implement a completely abstracted and asynchronous model
21:19	Morgawr	else I'd just go back to normal game development
21:19	Morgawr	I mean, the whole point of this project is to try it out
21:19	Morgawr	and see how it works
21:19	bbloom	Morgawr: that's only interesting if you're going to go DISTRIBUTED
21:20	bbloom	if you're not distributed, then you should take advantage of the fact that you have shared memory & fast coordination
21:20	bbloom	you can still program in an asynchonrous model
21:20	bbloom	but it's one that is controlled by a synchronous overlord... you know, like how your operating system works :-P
21:20	Morgawr	yes and no
21:20	bbloom	real games tend to look a lot like operating systems anyway :-)
21:21	Morgawr	I mean, I totally agree, but still agents help providing a message queue of some sort
21:21	Morgawr	the whole point is, I want to distribute events as actions performed by independent threads
21:21	Morgawr	and not as messages passed around
21:21	Morgawr	there is no "message passing"
21:21	bbloom	what agents do is message passing :-P
21:21	Morgawr	yes but not in the traditional distributed way (like in erlang)
21:22	bbloom	shrug ok, don't say i didn't warn you :-)
21:22	Morgawr	but that's beside the point, I get what you mean. I guess I can consider looking at the implementation of agents (or even use core.async) and see if I can implement some sort of priority queue or something similar
21:22	Morgawr	thanks for the good insights btw ;)
21:22	Morgawr	this is just a hobby project
21:22	bbloom	implementing a priority queue with core.async is hilariously easy
21:23	Morgawr	I never personally used core.async but I can read up, I've been done a lot of reading as of lately about it and it's really cool
21:23	bbloom	it's just a loop with a queue argument. then in the loop body you mulitplex on reads from a channel, plus executing what's in the queue. then recur
21:24	bbloom	good luck!
21:25	Morgawr	thanks ;) going to sleep now, got some good food for thoughts, night
21:29	arrdem	bitemyapp: pig
21:29	arrdem	bitemyapp: ping
21:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: yes?
21:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: your monad protocol library was...
21:53	arrdem	oh. fluokitten.
21:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: yissss
21:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: also: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Monad_transformers
21:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/monads.html
21:56	bitemyapp	with that, I am heading home.
21:56	arrdem	bitemyapp: starting a new project and your comments about having a single set of basic operations repeated again and again are making me feel bad about my initial design.
21:56	bitemyapp	I didn't want to make you feel bad :(
21:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: juuuust...inspire you to seek greatness!
21:57	_scape	I want to be able to use repl within my openGL app, I started an nrepl server within the opengl initialization but realize I cannot access that context still. How would I do this? Here's my error when running openGL functions from repl:
21:57	_scape	Exception: class java.lang.RuntimeExceptionRuntimeException No OpenGL context found in the current thread. org.lwjgl.opengl.GLContext.getCapabilities (GLContext.java:124)
21:59	_scape	Perhaps I can save the current entry into nrepl to an atom which I can access from the openGL thread, but I don't know how to hook in to nrepl to grab this
22:10	udoprog	Hey, I'm trying to use the following to read all expressions from an PushbackReader; http://pastebin.com/PqDXSrus - however whenever I encounter a comment it just returns the eof character, does anyone know why?
22:11	arrdem	udoprog: is the comment the end of the string?
22:12	udoprog	arrdem: no, I will try to put together a complete example using a ByteArrayInputStream and see if I can encounter the same issue
22:19	akurilin	Am I correctly thinking that list comprehension in clojure is possibly the cleanest way of working with list indexes?
22:19	akurilin	As in, sometimes you're basing logic on the position of the item in a list
22:19	akurilin	and you really need that index
22:19	akurilin	Can I do better than for?
22:29	amalloy	&(doc map-indexed)
22:29	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
22:30	akurilin	amalloy, oh yeah I remember using that once, good reminder.
23:12	arohner	is there a libraryfn out there for taking an instance of a defrecord, and returning its constructor(s)?
23:12	arohner	i.e. (find-constructor Foo) returns ->Foo ?
23:14	_scape	anyone have a link on how to implement a middleware for nrepl? i want to hook in to it
23:17	jared314	_scape: take a look at ritz project's middleware
23:17	jared314	_scape: https://github.com/pallet/ritz/tree/develop/nrepl-middleware/src/ritz/nrepl/middleware
23:18	jared314	_scape: and the nrepl readme is pretty good
23:18	_scape	thanks jared314
23:18	_scape	the readme portion on the middleware didn't make much sense to me actually :-\
23:20	technomancy	nrepl-discover has an example of middleware too
23:21	_scape	thx i'll check it out
23:26	akurilin	So I discovered that caching stuff from DB at boot with def is not fun when running with an empty test database which you populate at a later stage
23:28	akurilin	Is there a more elegant way to generate unique random integers than by recursively smashing random numbers at a set until it's large enough?
23:31	varlog	hi, i am using pmap to distribute a function over a list. is it possible to identify the particular thread id (e.g. thread 1, 2, 3)
23:36	jared314	arohner: you could look it up by name in the map returned from ns-public
23:37	arohner	jared314: right, and then you need to munge "Foo" into "->Foo" and resolve it. I was just hoping for a library fn
23:38	jared314	arohner: (symbol (str "->" (.getSimpleName (type myinstance))))
23:38	jared314	arohner: yeah i don't know one
23:57	amalloy	varlog: you could use a thread-local variable, although in general i would be cautious of anything that cares what thread it is
23:59	amalloy	eg, if you don't mind depending on useful, you could use https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/utils.clj#L197 like (let [counter (atom 0), thread-num (thread-local (swap! counter inc))] (defn which-thread [] @thread-num))
23:59	varlog	amalloy: thanks for the tip. Basiclly I am tryig to make sure that each thread calls a different port
23:59	varlog	else there will be a logjam