#clojure – 2013-05-19

2013-05-19

00:11	callen	it always surprises me how far I can get with just maps and keywords.
00:22	robink	amalloy: Would zippers be appropriate for that kind of structure?
00:23	amalloy	probably not, but shrug
00:23	robink	hm
00:24	amalloy	a rule of thumb for zippers: if you're not immediately certain you want a zipper, you probably don't
00:24	amalloy	certainly for a fixed-depth tree they bring very little to the table
00:37	robink	amalloy: Gotcha
01:28	mindbender1	Has anyone tried pedestal and liberator?
01:32	callen	mindbender1: don't.
01:33	wei_	my response for wrap-restful-format is always blank. is this the right way to use it? https://gist.github.com/yayitswei/5606785
01:39	tomoj	ianeslick: sure
01:40	tomoj	how?
01:40	clojurebot	with style and grace
01:44	callen	oddly that's from a presentation about Go
01:45	tomoj	ianeslick: nvm C-c I still satisfies my
01:45	tomoj	me
01:55	wei_	wrap-restful-response is returning :body #<BufferedInputStream java.io.BufferedInputStream@265970bf> for the body. how can I make it a normal string?
02:03	wei_	figured it out; I needed to return a form of {:body {:clojure :map}} in the route
02:34	mindbender1	callen: why is that?
02:37	callen	mindbender1: waste of time
02:38	mindbender1	callen: what do you suggest? either or?
02:38	recycle	(setq erc-hide-list '("JOIN" "PART" "QUIT"))
02:40	callen	mindbender1: vanilla ring/compojure / Luminus
02:40	mindbender1	I've just started looking at pedestal but I must confess I don't really see the point they are trying to make!
02:41	mindbender1	With all those cryptic syntax
02:53	callen	mindbender1: it's nonsense, use ring/compojure.
03:19	tomoj	mindbender1: callen: it's not nonsense...
03:19	tomoj	what syntax?
03:19	tomoj	it's just clojure
03:19	callen	yes it is.
03:19	callen	It's a ridiculous waste of time for 99.9% of web apps.
03:19	callen	to sell it as a general solution is disingenuous.
03:21	tomoj	hmm.. I'm listening
03:22	tomoj	what's the 0.1%?
03:32	mindbender1	tomoj: where you a part of that design?
03:32	mindbender1	what problems where you guys trying to solve?
03:36	tomoj	I wish..
03:38	mindbender1	Would you consider that designsimple?
03:41	tomoj	overall I consider pedestal delightfully simple, though I have not actually tried building an app with it, so my opinion is probably not very valuable
03:42	spoon16	I am trying to do something like ,(apply + x) where x may be a seqable object (which works fine) or a single item
03:43	spoon16	what is the best way to handle the single item case
03:43	spoon16	,(apply + 1)
03:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
03:43	spoon16	,(apply + [1])
03:43	clojurebot	1
03:50	amalloy	spoon16: don't try to handle "either a sequence or not a sequence". require a sequence, and if someone wants to call your thing on just one object, they can wrap it up themselves
03:52	callen	tomoj: not in this case no. I've built a fair number of apps in Clojure (albeit not as many as some here) but Pedestal is a fool's errand if you actually want to get anything meaningful done.
03:52	callen	tomoj: lots of ceremony that doesn't actually win you anything.
03:55	hiredman	(apply + 0 ...) is also nice in case they pass an empty seq
03:55	callen	tomoj: contrast with something like Meteor which is deeply technically flawed and naive, but it actually wins you something.
03:58	hiredman	oh, I guess for + it doesn't matter
03:58	tomoj	callen: I can't argue with such vague claims :)
03:59	spoon16	amalloy: ok
04:00	callen	tomoj: you have two choices, figure it out for yourself in a day or two, or take my word for it
04:00	callen	I'm not going to expound endlessly on what is an obvious subject.
04:10	callen	tomoj: stare 'til your eyes get dry or make an app. You'll see what I mean.
04:11	ucb	I have the following problem: I'm writing a pickle writer so that I can send batched data to graphite; that's a problem in itself, but let's ignore that for a second. I'm writing tests and for basic data types it's easy, pickle an int, a long, etc. When you get to tuples, still fine for tuple-1 (tuple-1 with an int, etc.) but when you get to tuple-2, then it gets complicated because of the sheer number of possible combi
04:11	ucb	nations. What would you guys recommend in this scenario?
04:12	ucb	something like quickcheck would be nice as it'd generate tests for me, but I'm working with midje and nothing else.
04:12	callen	ucb: so for starters, stop using midje
04:12	ucb	right now I've opted for low coverage of combinations
04:13	ucb	callen: far from helpful. Try again.
04:13	callen	ucb: there's a reason for it, which you'll understand in two seconds
04:13	callen	https://bitbucket.org/kotarak/clojurecheck https://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest
04:13	callen	ucb: ^^ stop using midje.
04:13	callen	oh god fucking dammit, did my REPL just hang?
04:14	ucb	fair enough, I can use that too. midje will happily run clojure.test tests.
04:14	callen	ucb: midje is the blind leading the credulous.
04:14	ucb	call me both :)
04:14	callen	ucb: you don't follow the mailing list?
04:15	ucb	callen: I do, yes. But not that closely. Why?
04:15	callen	you'd know why midje was a bad idea if you followed more closely earlier on. No matter.
04:16	ucb	fair enough.
04:16	tomoj	callen: ok, that is somewhat better than an incredulous stare. I will try
04:17	callen	tomoj: the key element here is to contrast what working with a vanilla ring app is like vs. pedestal for a more-than-single-page app.
04:17	callen	tomoj: say, a simple CMS or something.
04:17	tomoj	hmm
04:18	tomoj	vanilla ring and what's the client-side story?
04:18	tomoj	nothing?
04:18	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
04:18	callen	tomoj: it's volitional.
04:18	ucb	bleh, clojurecheck won't cut it unfortunately; nothing wrong with it, it's just that ... meh, never mind
04:18	tomoj	ok
04:19	callen	tomoj: you can run cljs with lein-cljsbuild and use one of the RPC wrappers
04:19	tomoj	well I have looked at interceptors for example
04:19	callen	tomoj: or you can run with vanilla JS which gets back to my point
04:19	tomoj	and I quite like them vs the vanilla ring stuff I've been doing
04:19	callen	tomoj: cljs is wildly, massively impractical
04:19	callen	tomoj: what you think of as a "client-side story" is goddamn foolish and a waste of time
04:19	tomoj	I just mean are you serving static html or is there JS basically
04:19	callen	tomoj: you're better using using vanilla jQuery for low complexity/density apps or AngularJS for more serious apps.
04:20	tomoj	but, yes, I'm not going to write an angular app :)
04:20	callen	tomoj: it's a vanilla web server, you can do whatever the fuck you want.
04:20	callen	tomoj: my point is that pedestal wins you nothing and makes common-sense web development more fraught with needless abstraction and complexity.
04:21	callen	if you want a stack that takes having a frontend story a lot more seriously, you'd look at Meteor/Derby/Firebase et al, but they're a bad idea for different reasons.
04:21	tomoj	what is this "win you something"
04:22	tomoj	my guess is it's like DHH-ian "look at all the code I'm not writing"
04:22	callen	tomoj: quite the opposite.
04:23	callen	tomoj: pedestal is a huge mess of code trying to make you not write code that never needed to be written to begin with on top of a worst-practices-imaginable frontend story.
04:23	callen	tomoj: vanilla ring/compojure apps let you do things how you want, but the idioms one tends to see are clean and simple and function within the web ecosystem perfectly.
04:23	callen	tomoj: do you even do web dev at alL?
04:24	tomoj	I'll just ignore that :)
04:24	callen	so you're just D-K'ing right along
04:24	callen	got it.
04:24	tomoj	example of the "worst-practices-imaginable"?
04:25	callen	no no, you ride your dunning-kruger rollercoaster by yourself.
04:26	ucb	heh - love it
04:32	mindbender1	I have a feeling people are not enjoying the kind of cljs clj dev enviroment I have been playing with.
04:33	callen	mindbender1: I can "deal" with it in vanilla ring with lein-cljsbuild but I don't think it's a good idea.
04:33	mindbender1	lein-cljsbuild? who uses that? not me
04:33	callen	that's...far from the point.\
04:36	mindbender1	callen you're on point though.. I'm losing a grip on simplicity amidst all these new libs
04:37	mindbender1	sharing simple data seem so hard for most authors..
04:38	mindbender1	as Rich puts it.. " Eventual consistency is really hard for programmers"
04:39	tomoj	eventual consistency?
04:39	tomoj	I'm guessing you mean that in some non-standard sense?
04:40	mindbender1	yep
04:41	tomoj	too many libs to understand?
04:41	mindbender1	no.. so much inconsisrency among them
04:42	mindbender1	inconsistency
04:42	tomoj	ah
04:42	zoldar	mindbender1: in what sense?
04:43	mindbender1	in how they expect you to communcate with them..
04:43	mindbender1	I like to see what I'm giving and what I'm receiving
04:43	mindbender1	don't do any more
04:46	zoldar	ok, I feel stupid, but must admit that I don't get your point. Are you referring to referential transparency? because that's clearly not achieveable in every case
04:48	mindbender1	I mean thinking in data
04:48	mindbender1	re:stu
04:49	mindbender1	zoldar: remember this is clojure
04:51	tomoj	do you have any specific beef?
04:52	mindbender1	yes.. I have a beef with complecting
04:52	mindbender1	especially when I smell it within clojure
04:53	tomoj	that is not very specific
04:53	mindbender1	tomoj: you must be able to distinguish familiarity and simplicity
04:54	mindbender1	I can get familiar with pedastalin 2 months but is it simple?
04:55	tomoj	pedestal is not that big
04:55	tomoj	but yeah I guess it would take a while to really realize the implications
04:55	mindbender1	there familiarity goes again
04:55	llasram	Ah, the benefits of your language's BFDL sticking to language design and being Dutch
04:56	mindbender1	tomoj: are you familiar with closure ui model
04:56	tomoj	no, I've perused those docs maybe once or twice
04:56	mindbender1	components control control-renderer state events
04:57	mindbender1	when I got familiar I realized it was not that big
04:57	mindbender1	It was a pure genius
04:58	tomoj	I think this is at least the second time I've considered telling you "you're bending my mind man"
04:59	mindbender1	so familiarity is a disease because you tend to forget the barrier
04:59	tomoj	oh, yes, I think I see what you're saying
05:01	tomoj	I'm not familiar with pedestal :P
05:03	tomoj	but yeah, everyone thinks the stuff they use is simple I guess
05:04	mindbender1	that's why like Rich we must step back and take a second look
05:05	tomoj	but so do you have any specific complains about pedestal or are you just generally worried that it might not be simple?
05:07	mindbender1	Yes.. they don't have a simple js/ui approach
05:07	tomoj	hmm
05:08	tomoj	I think I totally agree :)
05:08	tomoj	the way I see it they just haven't addressed that part of the problem
05:09	tomoj	or do you mean the stuff they wrote is actually complicated?
05:09	tomoj	I do have some problems with the app model bits too
05:10	mindbender1	they should go study what closure has done and just make little modifications using maps and vectors
05:10	mindbender1	It's far simpler
05:10	tomoj	oh, you really meant that closure ui is genius?
05:10	tomoj	I thought you meant that it just seemed genius because you were familiar with it
05:12	mindbender1	it's familiar but not there because of the OOP paradigm but comparing it with pedestal is nothing to write home about
05:13	mindbender1	pedestal just makes me want to do OOP
05:13	tomoj	:(
05:14	mindbender1	I would have thought as functional lib they did have a simpler model but lo and behold code weaving
05:14	tomoj	hmm, if I understand what you mean by 'weaving', I totally agree
05:15	kmicu	"pedestal just makes me want do OOP" hardcore
05:15	tomoj	in the chat sample (which is pretty trivial) it seems like information about particular bits is spread all over
05:17	mindbender1	Just from reading the docs I already knew they were approaching the problem in a complex way
05:17	kmicu	Do we read the same docs?
05:17	tomoj	I've been assuming you get the simple vs easy distinction?
05:21	mindbender1	what of A thinking about B, B thinking about A?
05:21	mindbender1	I was assuming you get the data-oriented programming paradign
05:22	mindbender1	do you call what they are doing there data-oriented?
05:22	tomoj	I don't have any more data-oriented ideas
05:23	tomoj	do you?
05:23	kmicu	Maybe Pedestals DATA flow engine, and DATA model with separation from application model and UI/DOM model is not data oriented. Maybe...
05:24	kmicu	Call me maybe monad...
05:29	llasram	hah!
05:32	mindbender1	maybe monad: that not data
05:33	mindbender1	that's not the data been referred to in the instance. I'm taking representation.. what's been communicated
05:36	tomoj	we are talking about the dataflow stuff? I don't see how you can get more data-oriented than a bunch of data
05:37	kmicu	x]
05:38	tomoj	I mean wiring up a graph of fns bothers me but the stuff they're operating on seems as data-oriented as possible to me
05:40	kmicu	You can go deeper, but you can fall into the data oriented limbo.
05:41	mindbender1	what you are forced to communicate with matters in this instance
05:42	tomoj	what is your actual complaint? :)
05:42	tomoj	like what part of the pedestal docs seems complex
05:42	callen	tomoj: you're prejudiced and foolish and don't see the real problems.
05:43	callen	tomoj: you're also talking about a problem space you haven't done anything in.
05:43	callen	Nobody cares if it's data-oriented, only if it helps with either scale or facility. It helps with neither.
05:43	tomoj	of course I'm prejudiced and foolish and don't see the real problems
05:44	callen	Picking and choosing your tools based on which programming gods they sacrifice their goats to is a good way to end up in a hellhole.
05:44	callen	cf. Haskell library ghetto
05:44	callen	tomoj: what have you built that's a web app?
05:45	callen	tomoj: you're like a person that buys a product based purely on brand, not on fitness for purpose.
05:45	callen	"oooh it's data-oriented. Forget the problen being solved, it MUST be awsum. <sic>"
05:46	callen	And Pedestal's fitness for purpose is very poor and the applicability is sparse at best.
05:46	callen	I would have to spend several hours thinking very hard before I could contrive a use-case for which pedestal would even be mediocre.
05:46	callen	Probably one involving an insane amount of boilerplate functionality.
05:47	tomoj	I don't think I've claimed pedestal is awesome, I'm simply trying to understand mindbender1's complaint, because I want to get other perspectives on pedestal's fitness
05:47	callen	tomoj: which really just harkens back to your misdirected accusation on my being in the DHH school, this framework is closer to that.
05:47	tomoj	sorry, didn't mean to accuse, that was simply my best guess for what you meant
05:47	callen	I prefer small composable tools that just work and do their job well.
05:48	callen	In this case, this means vanilla Ring and a raft of small libraries that each solve a particular problem in a way I favor.
05:49	callen	I don't even like Friend because it's too big and complicated.
05:49	callen	it tries to take over too much functionality all in one set of idioms.
05:49	callen	sandbar was better
05:49	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
05:49	callen	jjl`: :\|
05:50	kmicu	80' was better
05:50	jjs	(Sure it takes 250% CPU, but I'm pegging 60fps...)
05:52	tomoj	callen: definitely sounds sensible to me
05:52	tomoj	the problem with pedestal is that it's big? or uncomposable? or both?
05:53	noncom	how do i make the irc joined/quit notifications off?
05:53	noncom	i am on a qwebirc online client
05:54	tomoj	when I started looking at pedestal I was pretty negatively biased because it seemed big and framework-y, but I've been pretty pleasantly surprised by how much it seems you can drop or swap out with your own stuff
05:54	llasram	noncom: That's entirely a client detail -- you'll need to dig through your client's docs for that
05:55	callen	tomoj: Introduces project complexity for as close to nil benefit as I've ever seen with any library or framework of any size. I had to reassure myself it wasn't a trolly attempt at making the most non-functional framework in existence.
05:55	callen	tomoj: who cares if they let you move your food around on your plate?
05:56	callen	The only reason I don't believe it's a troll is because of who is behind it, but knowing that just hurts my confidence in the thought-leaders of the community.
05:56	callen	Reeks of ivory tower in the extreme.
05:56	tomoj	'move food' == 'drop or swap out'? or something else?
05:57	callen	tomoj: moving food around on one's plate. never heard this idiom?
05:57	callen	tomoj: it means to make some noise/sign of activity without accomplishing anything.
05:58	tomoj	so that's "you don't win anything" again?
05:58	noncom	llasram: ehh.. that won't be easy :) con't find the manual for quebirc client
05:59	callen	tomoj: no, you've misunderstood the idiom.
05:59	llasram	I haven't really been following anything about Pedestal. Are there any good longer-form analyses of it?
05:59	callen	llasram: none that aren't delusional, most of us are too disgusted to bother.
05:59	llasram	hah
05:59	callen	llasram: nobody really wants to be the public negative nancy.
05:59	tomoj	it sounds like you're saying that you'd be just as good starting from an empty project?
05:59	llasram	Maybe you should write a blog post?
05:59	callen	well except for me, I'm the 12th incarnation of Diogenes of Sinope so I might do it anyway.
05:59	tomoj	that's how I took 'without accomplishing anything'
06:00	callen	tomoj: you'd be better off using vanilla Ring.
06:00	tomoj	..and angular
06:00	callen	don't be irritating, I said there was a specific type of project Angular was suited for.
06:00	callen	If you're going to be disingenuous I'll stop entertaining your fatuous bullshit.
06:00	callen	tomoj: it introduces project-level friction for deployment, creating negative value in that capacity and others.
06:00	kmicu	Trolling party!
06:01	tomoj	I just mean that 'vanilla ring' seems to only address half of pedestal
06:01	callen	I'm not trolling, I'm sincere.
06:01	callen	you don't need Pedestal to use cljs, far from it.
06:01	kmicu	Vanilla Ring for everything!
06:01	callen	shoreleave solves that problem nicely.
06:01	callen	kmicu: vanilla Ring could be anything, given how many libraries you can use.
06:02	kmicu	callen: and interceptors are also bad?
06:02	tomoj	callen: if you don't want to have a conversation with me, feel free to stop talking to me :)
06:02	callen	horofox_: spice and wolf?
06:03	tomoj	I am however interested in understanding your perspective
06:03	tomoj	but am finding that difficult
06:03	callen	tomoj: you're polluting the channel with this inane conversation.
06:03	kmicu	Cuz it's ego trolling.
06:03	horofox_	callen: yeah
06:03	rasputnik	morning (possibly?) all
06:03	callen	horofox_: nice.
06:03	callen	horofox_: great show.
06:03	horofox_	:)
06:03	callen	rasputnik: hai
06:03	callen	horofox_: makes me want to watch it.
06:03	horofox_	callen: yeah, i love it
06:03	rasputnik	is there a idiomatic way to update a couple of keys in a map using conversion functions?
06:04	callen	rasputnik: conversion functions?
06:04	callen	rasputnik: I've not seen anything described thusly.
06:04	rasputnik	i.e. i have a fix-field1 and fix-field2 function, and want to build up a function to run them across a seq of maps to 'correct' the values
06:04	callen	(map (assoc... ?
06:05	callen	rasputnik: you need a refheap sir.
06:05	rasputnik	callen: works ok with update-in but it's a bit clumsy
06:05	rasputnik	what's a refheap?
06:05	Raynes	Best thing ever.
06:05	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com
06:05	callen	rasputnik: https://www.refheap.com/paste
06:06	Raynes	It's like a ref, but then it's a heap.
06:06	callen	Raynes: do you have an alert for refheap?
06:06	callen	Raynes: that or you're a lurking pro.
06:06	Raynes	"Hey, you got ref on my heap!" "Hey, you got heap on my ref!" "mmmmm"
06:06	rasputnik	Raynes: :P
06:06	Raynes	I do not have an alert for refheap.
06:06	callen	I need to remember to get those tickets.
06:07	rasputnik	i got 2 lines of clojure pulling data out of an XLSX. 2 of the fields are shitty though, because DATA ENTY IS HARD LOL
06:07	samrat	Raynes: tried using least.authorize but I'm getting {:error 13, :message "Invalid method signature supplied", :links []}
06:07	Raynes	callen: http://www.stubhub.com/imagine-dragons-tickets/imagine-dragons-los-angeles-hollywood-palladium-29-5-2013-4248007/ Better hurry. They're getting uncheap.
06:07	rasputnik	so I just need to pass this lovely clean lazy seq full of cruddy data through some 'fixer-upper' functions
06:08	Raynes	samrat: Blugh.
06:08	Apage43	(map (comp thing1 thing2 …) uglystuff) ?
06:08	samrat	Raynes: I think I've done exactly as the docs said
06:08	rasputnik	essentially this : https://twitter.com/rasputnik/status/335761576583913473
06:08	Apage43	where thingX is a (fn [icky] ..deickify some field..)
06:09	Raynes	samrat: Can you refheap your code sans tokens?
06:09	rasputnik	Apage43: yeah, might be a usecase for the -> macro (never used that before, yay)
06:10	Raynes	samrat: Which part of things is failing? Is the get-token call or the get-session call failing?
06:10	rasputnik	ah, i'll use update-in, it just seems a bit heavy.
06:10	samrat	Raynes: least/write
06:10	Raynes	samrat: So the get-session and get-token calls work fine and you get a key back?
06:11	Apage43	is it two fields exactly?
06:11	Apage43	you might even
06:12	Apage43	(map (fn [{:keys [fielda fieldb] :as in}] (merge in {:fielda (demangle fielda) :fieldb (demangle fieldb)})) ickyseq)
06:12	samrat	Raynes: yup. https://www.refheap.com/paste/14756
06:14	rasputnik	Apage43: i'll need a demanglea and demangleb , but yeah that'll work
06:14	rasputnik	this is that part where the code bloats up
06:14	Apage43	right, didn't know whether the input was ugly in the same way or a different way
06:14	rasputnik	then tomorrow i get an aha and delete 50% of it. the code collapses like a dying star emitting awesome. you know the drill.
06:14	Apage43	mmhm
06:15	Raynes	samrat: Reproduced. One moment.
06:15	Apage43	deleted code is best code
06:15	rasputnik	Apage43: learnt that back doing 4clojure, i'd write 30-odd lines of crap, look at someone elses answers and it'd be 20 characters.
06:15	callen	Raynes: ticket acquired.
06:16	rasputnik	ok, i'll get this done. thanks all.
06:16	Raynes	callen: We're gonna have funs.
06:16	Apage43	fewer places for bugs to hide
06:17	callen	Raynes: aye, just need to figure out where to stay now.
06:18	Raynes	Your car, dude. That's the hipster way of life.
06:19	Raynes	samrat: Figured out the issue. It's because (:key session) doesn't work. It's under another level of nesting. Currently thinking of how best to fix it.
06:20	rasputnik	Apage43: "no code is better than no code"
06:23	Raynes	samrat: Take a look at the documentation now. If you follow it this time it should work.
06:24	Raynes	Can nobody make a bloody consistent /rest API? Really?
06:24	Raynes	Christ.
06:24	samrat	Raynes: ok, thanks. working for me now
06:26	Raynes	samrat: Just release 0.1.4 to make the (:session …) bit not necessary so now the old documentation works. Sorry. :p
06:27	Raynes	released*
06:27	Pupnik-	hey Raynes why does (doc def) throw an exception with lazybot, while (doc defn) or (doc defmacro) don't?
06:27	Raynes	&(doc def)
06:27	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
06:27	Raynes	&(doc defn)
06:27	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] prepost-map? body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] prepost-map? body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the... https://www.refheap.com/paste/14757
06:27	Raynes	Because of the way the tester is designed in this case.
06:27	Raynes	The symbol 'def' is blacklisted.
06:28	Raynes	So when it sees 'def' it immediately throws an exception.
06:28	Raynes	The other things work because they aren't 'def' and aren't explicitly blacklisted.
06:28	Raynes	But they still can't be used, because if they are used they will expand to a call to 'def' and thus trigger the alarm.
06:28	Raynes	It's pretty complicated.
06:28	Pupnik-	ah, makes sense
06:29	samrat	Raynes: thanks
06:29	Raynes	samrat: Thanks for pointing out the issue!
06:30	Raynes	callen: Sorry I'm not more helpful on the stays stuff. I have exactly nothing. I don't even have a bed or a couch. No furniture at all. You'd be more comfortable in your car for real.
06:30	callen	Raynes: np at all, I'm wondering if you know of any decent hotels in the area.
06:31	callen	Raynes: I'm assuming you had to stay somewhere to interview.
06:31	Raynes	Never had to interview. I was an intern so I already had the job.
06:31	Raynes	I stayed at a place in Hollywood for 2 months before getting this place.
06:31	Raynes	But it was a sublease deal with a random guy and not a hotel.
06:31	Raynes	Airbnb is pretty great for short term chepo places.
06:31	Raynes	cheapo*
06:32	Raynes	And not-so-cheapo nice places.
06:32	Raynes	I have no clue about hotels.
06:32	Raynes	Someone who has lived here longer would have to provide input about that.
06:32	callen	Raynes: relative to the stadium and your own location, what area should I look for in Airbnb?
06:32	Raynes	I live in West LA and the venue for Imagine Dragons is in Hollywood.
06:33	Raynes	Anywhere between or around those areas would be fine.
06:34	callen	Raynes: no that's quite helpful. I can take it from there. I'm just hoping I won't still be sick when I visit.
06:35	Raynes	Sick with what?
06:37	callen	Raynes: I'm not really sure. Lots of weakness and shakes. Might be from lifestyle.
06:37	Raynes	Too many drugs?
06:37	Raynes	Sorry, this isn't funny.
06:37	callen	Raynes: I didn't want it to seem like a humblebrag, so I wasn't specific but sleep/diet/exercise.
06:39	callen	I'm not trying to be "hardcore" or anything, I've just been trying to make progress and haven't been taking care of myself as well as I should've.
06:39	Raynes	callen: There was a whole month where I thought I had a brain tumor because I was dizzy the whole time. Saw a doctor and even ended up having an MRI. Scariest month of my life (side by side with my first month in LA).
06:39	callen	Raynes: was it anything serious?
06:40	callen	dizziness is part of what I'm experiencing.
06:41	Raynes	callen: It just went away and hasn't come back.
06:41	Raynes	But it lasted a month which blew my mind.
06:41	Raynes	callen: Is it room spinning stuff?
06:42	callen	Raynes: no, but I have trouble standing when it happens. I don't think the dizziness is the worst part, just the weakness and shakes.
06:44	mthvedt	callen: not to be that guy, but have you seen a doctor
06:46	callen	mthvedt: I had a physical done recently prior to this starting, they knew at the time I would be upping the ante
06:46	callen	on diet/exercise and said nothing.
06:47	Raynes	If you think it's lifestyle changes then it probably is.
06:47	Raynes	callen: You might consider having your blood sugar checked. Or buying a checker and doing it.
06:47	Raynes	What you describe can sometimes come along with hypoglycemia.
06:47	callen	Raynes: my mother has hypoglycemia
06:48	callen	I have a somewhat conflicted relationship with the subject, I'm trying to run a low-calorie/low-GI diet.
06:48	mthvedt	so your doctor doesn't know about this?
06:48	Raynes	I don't think hypoglycemia is hereditary fwiw.
06:49	callen	I guess not but when I got checked, my blood sugar was perfectly normal.
06:49	callen	I wasn't high nor low
06:49	callen	and my historical BS seemed within norm ranges too
06:49	callen	in fact the only thing "wrong" with me was a fairly shallow test of my LDL, which is from something perfectly normal and temporary anyway.
06:49	mthvedt	well, i think emailing your doctor should be the first order of business
06:50	Raynes	Whoa
06:50	Raynes	Emailing?
06:50	Apage43	as in LDL was lower than normal?
06:50	Raynes	You can do that with doctors?
06:50	callen	there's nothing to fix nor be concerned about, I'm just moaning.
06:50	Raynes	Must be them fancy Californian doctors.
06:50	callen	Apage43: higher, for expected and temporary reasons.
06:50	mthvedt	i lived in chicago
06:50	Apage43	ah
06:50	mthvedt	we're modern here
06:50	callen	'ish
06:51	callen	mthvedt: once I adapt to my current pace I'll be fine.
06:51	Apage43	higher is typically not worth worrying about unless accompanied by other stuff
06:51	mthvedt	callen: if you think it's a lifestyle issue, don't adapt
06:51	mthvedt	overtraining your brain/work habits is just as bad as overtraining your body
06:52	callen	I don't think I'm over-training too badly, I'm doing 9-10 miles and 2-3 gym lifting visits a week
06:52	callen	or at all, for that matter.
06:52	mthvedt	oh, sorry, i got your words switched further up.
06:53	callen	mthvedt: yeah it's insomnia + few calories + exercise
06:53	mthvedt	rest is important for gainz
06:54	callen	mthvedt: I'm cutting, hence misery.
06:54	mthvedt	invariant under sign flip
06:54	callen	cutting + running + lifting is a special hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy
06:54	callen	I have a hard time even getting dressed
06:55	callen	the problem is I'm a huge bitch so I need to moan about it :P
06:56	mthvedt	that still doesn't sound healthy, although i am a non expert on cutting.
06:57	callen	it's unpleasant but I have enough fat that I'm in no real danger.
06:57	callen	The obese can get away with not eating at all except for water and vitamins for weeks and months on end.
06:59	mthvedt	still, chronic overstress on your body can have long term consequences
06:59	callen	so can being in bad shape
07:01	mthvedt	yes, but health:exercise is not a linear relationship. there's diminishing returns and, eventually, a maximum point
07:06	Raynes	#nutrition
07:09	Raynes	(just kidding, nobody is here)
07:16	mthvedt	is there no unchecked version of number comparisons
07:19	Okasu	Raynes: : stats/##nutrition: +o[1] +v[0] -o[44] - total: 45
07:19	Apage43	mthvedt: what would it not check?
07:20	mthvedt	agape43: if you dig into the clojure code it casts and boxes things
07:20	mthvedt	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L218
07:21	mthvedt	hang on, that's wrong
07:21	mthvedt	that's a code generation piece for an :inline
07:22	mthvedt	no, i was right the first time. that's the actual fn
07:23	mthvedt	i was tracing this code, and there's a weirdly high number of method calls and object constructions for comparing two longs. seems wrong
07:24	Apage43	looks like it has overloads for primitive types https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L3710
07:25	Apage43	.. sort of
07:25	mthvedt	i'm looking at the inliner now… it seems to go away for some spots but not others.
07:25	Apage43	nothing for (long, long), just for (long, double) or (long, Object) or either flipped
07:26	mthvedt	maybe i think i have a primitive where i actually don't somewhere
07:26	Apage43	perhaps, found the long, long one. Just further up https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L1775
07:30	Apage43	something's probably causing it to box, but it shouldn't be < (unless inlining isn't happening)
07:31	mthvedt	well, i fixed the boxing, but it didn't help, because there's more boxing further up
07:32	mthvedt	i mean it did help a little
07:32	mthvedt	but its not what i wanted
08:42	Glenjamin	To release a lib as EPL, do I just slap an EPL licence on it, or are there some other steps?
08:57	noncom	hi, in my program i take data from audio sample buffer, and that operation shows down the execution from 1500 fps to 100 fps in my program. Asking the buffer array of the numbers is what takes so long. But I do not need that data more often than 60fps. What is the best way to split the threads and put the data acquisition in a separate thread, so that my main thread will not slow down?
08:58	noncom	i guess i better use an agent for that?
08:58	noncom	but then how do I avoid unnecessary calls for data update?
09:03	echo-area	Is there anyone in NYC? How long does it normally take to go to Adams Street from Midtown?
09:04	echo-area	I know this is off-topic. Sorry.
09:04	noncom	i will try it with promises
09:16	bruceadams	Glenjamin: sure, so long as you wrote the lib, or have clear permission from whoever wrote it.
09:16	Glenjamin	cool, thanks
09:23	clojure-new	hello
09:25	clojure-new	is there any markuplanguage->html library for clojure? I have form and in this form user can type things, what i want is after user submits this form parse it and transfrom into syntaxhightlighted formmatted text.
09:25	clojure-new	or maybe there is better approach to this, not sure
09:25	clojure-new	can you recommend something?
09:35	bruceadams	clojure-new: http://refheap.com does syntax highlighting of many programming languages, using the pygments library, code here: https://github.com/Raynes/refheap
09:39	clojure-new	i think i should use this one http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/ but what approach do you recommend? Strip all html tags -> detect if inputs includes somthing like [[[code]]][[[/code]]] -> wrap it in div with id="highlight" -> hightlight with some highleghter
09:39	clojure-new	how this sounds?
10:01	clojure-new	how can i escape html in clojure?
10:01	clojure-new	is there lib for that
10:04	jjttjj	clojure-new: https://github.com/yogthos/markdown-clj
10:04	jjttjj	is that what you're looking for?
10:04	jjttjj	see also: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
10:06	clojure-new	jjttjj: no, i'm looking for library for santize user input
10:06	clojure-new	to be morem presise - escape html from user input
10:10	clojure-new	,(-> "<h1>test</h1>" str (.replace "&" "&") (.replace "<" "<") (.replace ">" ">")))
10:11	clojurebot	"<h1>test</h1>"
10:11	clojure-new	how do you think guys, is it secure?
10:12	clojure-new	it is not efficient, thats for sure
10:14	xeqi	basically what hiccup does, https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/1.0.2/src/hiccup/util.clj#L53
10:16	clojure-new	xeqi: thanks
10:21	m0smith	is anyone using nrepl-ritz?
10:22	kmicu	y
10:29	noncom	what is clojure's syntactic convention for getters?
10:29	noncom	for naming them i mean
10:33	bbloom	noncom: what's a "getter" exactly in the context of clojure?
10:34	noncom	bbloom: well, yeah, it sound more like oop-ish, but think of specific functions that get specific keys/values from maps of a known format
10:35	noncom	bbloom: ahh.. maybe it is more useful to name them according to their role? like 'extract-building-costs' or 'building-costs-of' or smth?
10:36	noncom	or should it simply be 'building-costs'? but that name seems somewhat unclear
10:36	ddellacosta	is there any way to figure out what lein profile I'm running under in my actual app/lib? Or is that considered bad form for any reason?
10:36	bbloom	noncom: keywords == getters for simple keys
10:36	bbloom	noncom: (:first-name {:first-name "Brandon" :last-name "Bloom})
10:36	bbloom	,(:first-name {:first-name "Brandon" :last-name "Bloom})
10:36	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
10:36	bbloom	,(:first-name {:first-name "Brandon" :last-name "Bloom"})
10:37	clojurebot	"Brandon"
10:37	noncom	bbloom: yeah, but i want to extract comples patterns (subtrees)
10:37	noncom	bbloom: i just had a cup of coffee :D
10:37	noncom	i just thought maybe there is some naming convention like with the '?' postfix
10:37	noncom	for boolean returning funs
10:38	bbloom	noncom: some people use the "get-" prefix, but i don't think it's necessary at all
10:38	bbloom	in fact, it's mostly redundant
10:39	noncom	yeah, probably, most of the times it is
10:40	Glenjamin	ddellacosta: you're usually better using environ
10:40	ddellacosta	Glenjamin: yeah, I'm using an environment variable now, but it irks me that I'm setting that plus using test profile, for example
10:41	ddellacosta	Glenjamin: mostly 'cause I forget to set the environ sometimes. Doh.
10:41	Glenjamin	you can have the environment variables in the project.clj
10:41	ddellacosta	Glenjamin: ah, that was the magic sauce I was looking for. Thanks, I'll look into that!
10:41	Glenjamin	i've got things like :force-ssl under :production
10:41	Glenjamin	https://github.com/weavejester/environ
10:42	ddellacosta	Glenjamin: oh, I thought you mean like, environment variables--you were talking about something else entirely. Gotcha!
10:42	ddellacosta	very cool, thanks.
10:42	Glenjamin	that lib wraps up a few similar things under one accessor :)
10:43	ddellacosta	That is perfect, exactly what I was looking for.
10:43	ddellacosta	I'm trying to set a test db vs. dev db, and keep accidentally wiping my dev db 'cause I can't remember to set the frigging variable. This will save me lots of pain.
10:44	Glenjamin	ah, for DB credentials i'd usually keep them out of version control
10:44	Glenjamin	but i've got a few files I source into my bash prompt to set up the env variables
10:45	Glenjamin	or you could use an alias to only set the environment variables when you need them - depends how strict you want to be about config :)
11:18	Glenjamin	gfredericks: i've just published my spies lib if you're still looking for something like that - https://github.com/glenjamin/q
11:25	rlb	if you need to force a file sync, is it reasonable to just create a FileChannel yourself and use force, or is there a better way?
11:57	jaley	I want an API i'm writing to be called like this: (arrange-images images), or (arrange-images images :fast-but-ugly-method), (arrange-images images :slow-but-pretty-method), etc. I'd also like to plug in other implementations later… feels like multi methods? I just kind figure out how to make them do that
11:58	llasram	jaley: Looks exactly like multimethods
11:59	llasram	Do give some thought to argument-order though. There's some benefit to having the primary dispatch token come first -- `partial` etc
11:59	llasram	But multimethods give you the flexibility to do it however you want
12:01	Glenjamin	i'm using speclj to run my tests - it defines a lein task which calls leiningen.core.main/exit with the exit code - when I use this inside with-profile it causes an exception
12:01	Glenjamin	what's the correct way to handle this case?
12:02	jaley	llasram: ok, that's what I thought. but… how? what would the dispatch function look like?
12:03	llasram	jaley: (fn [images algo] algo) should do it
12:04	llasram	There's no magic
12:04	jaley	then my methods take the same args?
12:04	llasram	Then (fn [algo & args] algo)
12:04	llasram	Another reason to put the dispatch-token first :-)
12:04	jaley	so, if i take your advice and move alto first
12:05	Glenjamin	(fn [images & [algo]] algo) will work
12:05	llasram	Or really (fn [images algo & args] algo) would work too
12:05	jaley	right, but isn't it the case that the defmethods receive exactly the args the dispatch fn received?
12:05	jaley	so they need to ignore the first arg?
12:05	Glenjamin	correct
12:06	jaley	(defmethod foo :some-implementation [_ images] …) ; for example?
12:06	jaley	this is what made me think maybe I was doing it wrong.. :P
12:07	llasram	That's the way the method mungles
12:09	jaley	ok cool, that'll do it. thanks guys
13:45	yogthos	technomancy: hey any chance you could nuke the luminus-template repo for me again? :)
13:45	yogthos	technomancy: it's getting a bit big again :)
13:50	wink	yogthos: ah, got a sec for some luminus/general questions? :)
13:50	yogthos	wink: yeah sure
13:51	wink	yogthos: I'm unsure about how to handle optional GET-parameters. Like.. talking to a haskell user regarding the Request monad in yesod, if you know that?
13:52	yogthos	wink: uhm not really familiar with that one, can you give an example?
13:52	wink	yogthos: code example is https://github.com/winks/multiplex/blob/master/src/multiplex/routes/home.clj#L189
13:52	wink	optional page=x&limit=y
13:53	wink	that need to be passed inside quite a few functions. and it's about how to do it beautifully, not just "it works"
13:53	yogthos	wink: I think in that case you might want to grab the full request instead of destructuring
13:53	yogthos	wink: (GET "/user/:username" req-map ...)
13:53	wink	yogthos: but I'm not mistaken and libnoir has anything to work with requests specifically?
13:53	wink	I'd hate to pass the request-map everywhere
13:54	yogthos	wink: that part's mostly handled by compojure
13:54	wink	but it's kind of "grab something from the global state per-request"
13:54	yogthos	wink: it does have a context
13:54	yogthos	wink: http://weavejester.github.io/compojure/compojure.core.html#var-context
13:54	yogthos	wink: sounds like that might be what you're looking for?
13:55	ambrosebs	Someone might enjoy this: core.typed workshop from YOW! Lambda Jam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW7HinnoGhk
13:59	wink	yogthos: thanks a lot, will have a look
13:59	yogthos	wink: cool stuff
14:28	arrdem	how would you guys suggest getting my feet wet with clojure.core's implementation?
14:29	arrdem	besides just a git clone and two weeks with code and coffee :p
14:34	mhr	Hi, is there something like socketstream/meteor/derbyjs for clojure/clojurescript?
14:39	mhr	addittionally, I want to use clojure, but I'm concerned that if I use clojure for a gui-based app, it'll be slow because it's using java, so is there a port of clojure using C or C++?
14:41	murphy_	good afternoon! I realize I'm a bit out of date here, but if I'm looking for help with setting up vimclojure, is this the right place to ask?
14:41	murphy_	Or should I give up on vimclojure since it's a dead project and use fireplace instead?
14:41	murphy_	(I've liked using vimclojure in the past)
14:42	ianeslick	mhr: Depends on the GUI
14:42	ianeslick	Java can be plenty fast, depending on what you need it to do.
14:42	mhr	yeah, I realize, but in my experience using java-based apps (I haven't made any java apps before), they seem to lag
14:43	mhr	I can't really point to a specific application
14:43	ianeslick	mhr: Are you thinking about Eclipse, for example?
14:43	n_b	Is your experience Eclipse? That's not a representative sample
14:43	mhr	nope, like I said, never made a java app before, so never used eclipse
14:43	ianeslick	mhr: For web, there is Pedestal, although it's still a little immature
14:43	mhr	my main question is: is there a C/C++ port of clojure?
14:43	ianeslick	mhr: Short answer is no.
14:43	mhr	what's the long answer? :P
14:44	n_b	Why use Clojure and not Chicken Scheme or similar?
14:44	mhr	pedestal, cool I'll look into that
14:45	mhr	good question. clojure seems to have the better community from what I've read
14:45	mhr	there's not exactly huge Chicken Scheme or Racket conferences
14:48	ianeslick	mhr: Clojure has quite a few improvements on the old Scheme / Lisp systems, but most importantly can interoperate with the massive base of Java libraries and applications.
14:49	hyPiRion	I think the most important part is that it has a large library base and is more pure/immutable/simple than any other
14:49	mhr	isn't that only useful if I'm coming from the java world and I am already familiar with all those libraries?
14:49	ianeslick	mhr: There is no fundamental reason why Java/Clojure has to be that much slower than C/C++, but it is easier to design slower systems in Java. Also, there isn't yet a good way (that I"m aware of) to tap native UI kits easily from the Java system. Although Win 8 apparently makes JS a first class language, so with some tooling pain you could use Clojurescript.
14:50	ianeslick	mhr: If you know the C/C++ landscape really well, then you might be better look into an Embeddable Scheme, or Lua, or something like that.
14:51	TEttinger	yeah LuaJIT is absurdly fast
14:51	TEttinger	kinda doesn't help with threads thougg
14:52	mhr	haha I don't, I'm actually just learning C right now as a matter of fact. I think it'd be cool to be able to make a C-speed clojure gui application, particularly because clojure has all those concurrency advantages
14:53	hyPiRion	check out clojure-metal in 6 months or so
14:54	n_b	Many of those concurrency advantages are built on top of very powerful JVM tech.
14:54	TEttinger	yeah, that's true
14:54	hyPiRion	tbaldridge has a very straight plan on how to get it working properly
14:54	n_b	Like are reducers in cljs yet?
14:56	mhr	clojure-metal is exactly what I'm looking for, thanks
14:56	mhr	hmmm...maybe not...
14:56	r0bglees0n	isn't the JVM really fast though?
14:56	lfranchi	is there an idiomatic way in clojure to, given a list of ints, search for a subsequents of ints? e.g. 1 2 3 4 in '(2 4 1 2 3 4 9 9(
14:59	ianeslick	I think the idea that C is alot faster is mostly a red herring these days. Very few applications really require that degree of low level performance, and usually only in a small portion of the code.
15:00	ianeslick	You pay alot more to write an application in C - of course if you could have a Clojure no the metal it would remove some of the overhead and allow you to use native frameworks like Cocoa, etc more easily.
15:01	mhr	I was thinking that the easiest way to make a C-speed clojure is to simply write a compiler for clojure in chicken scheme (because there's already a ton of already-included primitives that both scheme and clojure share) and then bootstrap it
15:02	Okasu	mhr: https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme
15:03	n_b	What is your application doing that speed is so paramount?
15:03	cbp`	lfranchi: That's a dynamic programming problem. No real straightforward implementation unless you wanna turn them to strings and use regex I guess. But java's regex are a bit slow I think.
15:03	nightfly	I would really love to see a selfhosting clojure native clojure with less reliance on a "host" language.
15:03	mhr	nothing, I just want to get speed as a given so I don't have to worry about it
15:06	mhr	Okasu: that's only cljs->scheme->C
15:08	cbp`	Wait not dynamic programming
15:08	cbp`	just pattern matching
15:09	cbp`	Still not the easiest algorithm :P
15:09	lfranchi	cbp`: yeah i'll do it the boring way
15:11	n_b	the way I'd do it is a recursive take-while or similar, but I'm not great at that sort of problem
15:12	cbp`	If you wanna implement a linear time algorithm you can check out these videos: http://nptel.iitm.ac.in/courses/106101060/14
15:12	lfranchi	yeah i can just do it with drop-while i think
15:12	cbp`	Naive implementation is O(n^2) irrc
15:12	lfranchi	take + dropwhile
15:13	lfranchi	i don'tneed to win any benchmarks :)
15:13	cbp`	Well as long as it isn't a very important process :P
15:14	cbp`	O(n*m) i mean
15:17	hyPiRion	lfranchi: subsequence or substring?
15:31	jjttjj	is there a replacement in noir-lib for noir.util.test/with-noir?
15:31	jjttjj	lib-noir i mean
16:01	gfredericks	am I weird for using :type metadata on my own defrecord?
16:07	jtoy	anyone here using clojure and vim as their main environment? I had some questions on how to be most productive in vim
16:08	wink	jtoy: I am using this and I am totally the wrong person to ask, because I don't actually like this environment :P
16:09	jtoy	i use vim to edit, and while i am testing different pieces of code, i also have a repl in a terminal and reload the class and then rerun the function, i am doing this all day and seems kind of ineefficient
16:10	jtoy	i know in emacs ppl have a live connection to the repl
16:11	llasram	jtoy: I don't use vim myself, but we just did a "dev enviroments workshop" in the Atlanta Clojure meetup group, and got see vim fireplace
16:11	llasram	jtoy: As far as I can tell, it has nearly complete parity with what you can do in Emacs
16:11	llasram	You get a running REPL, into which you directly chuck stuff from your editor
16:12	jtoy	llasram: do you know if there was a video of that?
16:12	llasram	No... We're not quite that slick (yet), I'm afraid :-)
16:12	jtoy	i've heard of the concept , but i want to see it in action
16:12	llasram	It appears to be very easy to set up though
16:12	jtoy	seems like clojure and vim is like going against the ide
16:12	jtoy	tide
16:13	llasram	I would have said that prior to foreplay/fireplace. But like I said -- they look to have largely the same features
16:16	wink	http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/vim_fireplace.html looks good
16:18	wink	as of yet I haven't managed to work in a useful speed in emacs
16:26	jtoy	thx
16:37	ysawej	Hi all
16:38	ysawej	how do I access "getAlgorithms" method of Provider.Service? http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/security/Provider.Service.html
16:39	ysawej	I tried (import '(java.security Provider)) then used (Provider.Service/getAlgorithms) but that doesn't work
16:39	ysawej	*getAlgorithm
16:39	llasram	ysawej: Inner classes are a Java fiction. Their real JVM names are Outer$Inner
16:39	ysawej	oh!
16:40	llasram	So probably importing Provider$Service, then calling Provider$Service/getAlgorithms
16:40	ysawej	I still feel new to clojure :)
16:41	ysawej	also, it is a static class
16:42	llasram	Gotta learn something new each day!
16:42	ysawej	so how does I access Provider$Service/getAlgorithm
16:43	llasram	Just like you would any other class + static method. This class just happens to have a '$' in the name
16:43	ysawej	yeah.. I have been using the immutable part of clojure for sometime, got to start delving into the "states" and also java interop
16:44	llasram	Oh, It's not a static method
16:45	llasram	So yeah, like I said above, only s,static,, :-)
16:48	ysawej	yup.. looks like I'll have to create a new Instance, then get algorithms, etc.. I'll could rather use java.security.Key/getAlgorithm
16:49	ysawej	thanks llasram !
16:49	llasram	np!
17:09	jtoy	anyway to see the last results from fireplace? i closed the window by accident
17:11	llasram	jtoy: Can you evaluate the value of `*1`?
17:11	llasram	I'm actually not sure of the process of how those get set in REPL sessions, but might work
17:21	gfredericks	,#'*1
17:21	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/*1
17:26	tomoj	gfredericks: does sound a bit weird..
17:27	gfredericks	tomoj: ah well :)
17:27	tomoj	might the :type have different values for a single record type?
17:28	gfredericks	yeah I only have one record actually
17:29	Glenjamin	oh, gfredericks - are you still looking for a stubs/spies lib?
17:29	gfredericks	Glenjamin: not actively
17:29	gfredericks	I remember there being a decent one last time I heard of the topic
17:29	Glenjamin	published mine today if you're after one again - https://github.com/glenjamin/q
17:29	Glenjamin	it's based off bond, but with more helper functions
17:30	gfredericks	ah bond was the one I remembered
17:32	gfredericks	Glenjamin: looks like good stuff
17:37	gfredericks	is it wrong to say that a java method call is polymorphic in all the arguments (including 'this')?
17:38	gfredericks	I guess the "dispatch" on the non-this args is always done at compile-time
17:38	gfredericks	maybe that's the main difference
17:42	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzQvGz6_fvA
18:04	jtoy	im doing a new clojure project that will need to have a persistent backend, any recomendations that fit better with clojure, this is a toy project
18:06	gfredericks	jtoy: probably whatever you have an easiest time setting up :)
18:06	jcrossley3	jtoy: a lot fit well with clojure, but datomic is prolly the current hotness
18:07	jtoy	i normally use postgresql
18:07	gfredericks	I use postgres with java.jdbc and honeysql at work
18:07	jtoy	all my clojure projects have been processing files on disk, never worked with any persistent dbs before, i assume its mostly the same as other languages except for immutable issues
18:08	gfredericks	you mean a lack of ORM issues
18:09	jtoy	? I've used both orms and raw db drivers, i'd rather use an orm for the almost all queries
18:09	gfredericks	there's more than those two options
18:09	gfredericks	honeysql+java.jdbc is a lot different from raw db drivers
18:09	jtoy	I mean in other languages, not clojure
18:10	gfredericks	sure; I just meant that most of the complexity in other languages is trying to make ORMs work
18:10	jtoy	honeysql looks pretty cool
18:11	jtoy	gfredericks: does honeysql do inserts? according to this https://github.com/jkk/honeysql it doesnt
18:11	gfredericks	correct
18:11	gfredericks	because java.jdbc is not terrible about inserts
18:12	gfredericks	traditionally the worst thing about java.jdbc is writing SELECT queries
18:12	gfredericks	if you want any kind of composability you end up doing the awfullest of string manipulations
18:12	jtoy	i would like to use a solution where i dont have to write any java, i've never written any java
18:14	gfredericks	I don't think java.jdbc involves much
18:14	gfredericks	none that I can think of off the top of my head
18:14	gfredericks	I assume by "java" you mean "java interop"
18:14	gfredericks	not literally java code
18:15	jtoy	i havent written any java code at all, i have done some java interop code, but that assumes i've written java, which i havent so that part can be slow at times
18:15	gfredericks	my hunch is all you really need to understand is the jvm object model
18:15	gfredericks	which is a lot simpler than e.g. ruby's
18:16	jtoy	i came from ruby before clojure, i really like ruby and clojure, dont like java much
18:16	jtoy	i will use honeysql and jva.jdbc with sqlite for this project, thanks!
18:17	Raynes	bleh
18:17	gfredericks	np
18:17	jtoy	Raynes: why?
18:17	Raynes	jtoy: MongoDB is tons of fun.
18:17	jtoy	Raynes: i used mongodb for a proejct a few years ago, experience the disapearring data and never came back
18:18	Raynes	You said this was a toy project.
18:19	Raynes	In any case, I haven't had the disappearing data experience. shrug
18:19	gfredericks	Raynes: quick go check
18:20	jtoy	Raynes: true
18:20	jtoy	trying to understand datomic, if i use the free edition, is my data not persistant?
18:20	Raynes	Nonetheless, you can use whatever you want of course.
18:20	Raynes	Trying to understand datomic is a full time position.
18:21	Raynes	callen: Good tune.
18:21	gfredericks	jtoy: it is persistent
18:21	gfredericks	in some kind of embedded jvm database
18:21	jtoy	Raynes: ok, so I guess I wont try that "new hotness" then
18:21	AWizzArd	I want: (defmulti foo #(class (first %)) and (defmethod foo Integer [& ints] (...)) When I now call (foo (int 10) (int 20)) I get an arity error. Ideas?
18:22	gfredericks	AWizzArd: you need the dispatch function to be variadic
18:22	llasram	Yeah, try e.g. #(class (first &%))
18:22	gfredericks	%&
18:22	AWizzArd	ah, sure
18:22	jtoy	i dont really understand why its so great anyway
18:22	llasram	Er, typo
18:22	llasram	Thanks
18:22	Glenjamin	&% does variadic on #() ? thats ugly :(
18:22	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context
18:23	llasram	Glenjamin: %& -- I typoed
18:23	callen	jtoy: the free edition has limited durability AFAIK
18:23	Glenjamin	oh, makes a bit more sense, but still a bit arcane
18:23	Raynes	Glenjamin: Well, you don't have to use it.
18:23	Glenjamin	mm
18:23	Raynes	There aren't many options for short forms like this.
18:24	Raynes	If it looks too bad, you can always just use (fn [] ..)
18:24	jtoy	callen: that makes it even harder to test then :(
18:24	Glenjamin	yeah, i think (fn [x & xs] x) is a bit clearer
18:24	jtoy	sqlite it is
18:25	gfredericks	callen: limited durability?
18:26	Glenjamin	jtoy: http://sqlkorma.com/ might be worth a look
18:30	callen	jtoy: just use sqlkorma and PostgreSQL
18:32	Raynes	Or if you leave and just go do your project you might actually get it done with something because if you stick around here asking what you should use everybody is just going to give you different answers and make you even more indecisive. :p
18:32	callen	jtoy: follow Raynes' advice, but use PostgreSQL and sqlkorma.
18:32	Raynes	~guards
18:32	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:32	Glenjamin	i hear rethinkDB is cool...
18:33	Raynes	Yeah, but callen hasn't finished his driver yet.
18:33	Raynes	:D
18:33	Raynes	yogthos: GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR.
18:34	jtoy	which is better sqlkorma or honeysql ?
18:35	Glenjamin	korma has a nicer website
18:36	wink	korma needs some doc updates
18:36	wink	I found it awfully hard to jump into
18:37	wink	but after that hurdle I'm quite happy
18:37	callen	jtoy: korma is superior.
18:40	cbp`	macros overused :-(
18:40	cbp`	need literal SQL :D
18:42	cbp`	callen ! when are you gonna put me to work :-D?
19:12	AWizzArd	Is there a better way than (instance? (class (double-array 0)) my-double-array)?
19:41	llasram	##(Class/forName "[D")
19:41	lazybot	⇒ [D
20:11	muhoo	callen: superior how?
20:12	muhoo	ok, is there a lein plugin that will make a lein template out of an existing project?
20:13	Raynes	&(l/parse-fragment "<p>fragment!</p>")
20:13	lazybot	⇒ ([{:type :element, :attrs nil, :tag :p, :content ["fragment!"]} nil])
20:14	Raynes	It just occurred to me that you can use laser from lazybot cause it's a dependency. :D
20:22	Sgeo	laser?
20:27	Raynes	Sgeo: https://github.com/Raynes/laser
20:28	jimkcar	is there a way to do a deftype with a type-hinted and unsynchronized mutable argument?
20:28	Sgeo	Any relation to lenses?
20:28	gfredericks	jimkcar: do the deftype docs not say so?
20:30	jimkcar	i don't see that it says they're mutually exclusive
20:30	jimkcar	I think its me not understanding the correct syntax
20:35	jimkcar	(deftype Foo [^{:unsynchronized-mutable true type-hint} myarg])
20:35	jimkcar	not sure what to use in the type-hint area. it's a map, so what is the key for a type hint?
20:36	gfredericks	jimkcar: you can use multiple metadata syntaxes together
20:36	gfredericks	but it's also good to know that ##(meta (read-string "^Foo bar"))
20:36	lazybot	⇒ {:tag Foo}
20:36	gfredericks	^ you could probably use :tag as well
20:37	gfredericks	(deftype Foo [^ItsClass ^{:unsynchronized-mutable true} myarg] ...)
20:43	jimkcar	@gfredericks thanks. now it seems to not like that ^ItsClass is a defrecord type
20:44	gfredericks	o_O
20:44	gfredericks	is it from another namespace? do you need to :import it?
20:44	nerdfunk	hi there
20:46	jimkcar	yeah I keep going in circles with that. this is in myapp.somens and i'm doing a :require myapp.core :as core and it wont find core/ItsClass
20:46	jimkcar	not sure if that makes sense.
20:46	gfredericks	it does
20:46	gfredericks	classes still have to be imported
20:47	gfredericks	as java classes
20:47	gfredericks	classic gotcha
20:48	jimkcar	I see, so even though its clojure, I still have to import it.
20:48	gfredericks	exactly
20:49	jimkcar	and my :require is just pulling in all the defn from there
20:49	gfredericks	yeah, the vars
20:49	jimkcar	not the deftypes and defrecords
20:49	gfredericks	right, not the classes
20:50	gfredericks	though for a (defrecord Foo ...) you'll get vars called ->Foo and map->Foo
20:50	gfredericks	and those will be :require'd as normal
20:51	jimkcar	I know map->Foo, but what's up with ->Foo
20:51	jimkcar	?
20:51	gfredericks	for (defrecord Foo [a b c]) it is equiv to (defn ->Foo [a b c] (Foo. a b c))
20:52	gfredericks	pretty much identical to the constructor, but it's a var/fn so more flexible
20:52	jimkcar	So the Foo. doesn't get pulled in with the require?
20:54	gfredericks	right. that's just an interop form for the class's constructor
20:55	jimkcar	so should I be using ->Foo instead of Foo. everywhere?
20:55	gfredericks	may as well; it's easier
20:56	gfredericks	only reason I can think of to use Foo. is if you're trying to squeeze every last cent out of your perf
20:57	jimkcar	ok, it at least makes things consistent between files
20:58	gfredericks	->Foo also lets you do aspect-oriented things like adding preconditions
21:00	gfredericks	so seems like good practice in general to avoid the constructor
21:00	jimkcar	Because it's a full-on IFn, not a Java Constructor method?
21:01	gfredericks	right
21:01	jimkcar	got it
21:02	jimkcar	now all I'm getting is a ClassNotFoundException I'm importing it.
21:03	gfredericks	I'm out of ideas then. You could post a code sample.
21:03	jimkcar	the exception is in the typehint
21:03	jimkcar	sure, I'll try
21:04	gfredericks	(refheap.com)
21:20	jimkcar	@gfredericks https://www.refheap.com/paste/14772
21:20	gfredericks	jimkcar: ah ha
21:21	gfredericks	the :as core does not apply to the imported class. You should be able to refer to it as simply ^MyType
21:22	jimkcar	shouldn't the fully qualified work too? i.e. ^my-app.core.MyType
21:22	gfredericks	yep
21:22	jimkcar	I've been trying all kinds of stuff, but its not working
21:23	gfredericks	oh whoops
21:24	gfredericks	fully qualified would be my_app.core.MyType
21:24	gfredericks	i.e., the classname has underscores in it
21:24	gfredericks	because java packages can't have dashes
21:24	gfredericks	the thing is coming all the way from javaland and it got beat up there
21:24	gfredericks	so that applies to the :import as well
21:25	gfredericks	yeah the whole thing works for me after those tweaks
21:26	jimkcar	yep, all is right with the world as far as that goes. Thanks
21:27	gfredericks	:) np
21:27	gfredericks	clojure is just a giant pile of leaky abstractions
21:27	jimkcar	ugh, now more....
21:28	jimkcar	in that last deftype, in the domorestuff i'm trying to do this .... (dostuff somearg)
21:28	jimkcar	using the protocol fn from the other namspace isn't working
21:30	gfredericks	should it be (core/dostuff somearg)?
21:31	jimkcar	yep! ;)
21:31	gfredericks	eventually it all starts to seem internally consistent
21:32	amalloy	hah. what a nice summing-up of computer science as a whole, gfredericks
21:32	jimkcar	wondering if I should change my app base namespace just out of spite
21:32	gfredericks	amalloy: consistent or leaky?
21:32	jimkcar	both. lol
21:34	jimkcar	thanks again for the help gfredericks
22:57	avishai	two newb questions
22:57	avishai	are binding vars visible to other threads? e.g. agents
22:58	brehaut	yes and no
22:58	llasram	Dynamic var bindings are explicitly thread-local, but see `bound-fn`
22:59	nightfly	Really? Hows the behavior if you create a thread within a binding?
22:59	llasram	The new thread sees the root binding
23:00	nightfly	That's kinda disappointing to me, but understandable.
23:01	brehaut	llasram: im not sure thats right
23:01	llasram	brehaut: Oh?
23:02	brehaut	llasram: i just tested it with (def ^:dynamic d 1) @(future d) #_ 1 (binding [d 2] @(future d)) #_ 2
23:03	llasram	Yeah, so 1.3 made things weird with `binding-conveyor-fn`, which is used by several things like send-off and future-call
23:03	brehaut	could be ive missed some semantics of futures, but im i think that test case is correct
23:03	brehaut	right, so if i had used Thread. it would have been different
23:03	llasram	Those Clojure-specific constructs will carry along the thread binding frame of where they are defined
23:03	llasram	Exactly
23:04	llasram	But IMHO it's a misfeature which just makes dynamic scope even more difficult to reason about
23:04	llasram	(the behavior of `future`, not raw `Thread.` seeing the root bindings)
23:05	brehaut	(binding [d 2] (let [p (promise)] (.start (Thread. #(deliver p d))) @p)) #_ 1
23:05	brehaut	as you suggest
23:05	nightfly	That's really whacky behavior
23:06	brehaut	how did binding conveyance work prior to 1.3?
23:06	brehaut	im sure that since pre 1.0 the docs have suggested the thread locals behave as per the future and send examples
23:07	llasram	Hmm
23:07	brehaut	(first guess suggests that you could do it relatively easily, but it'd be slow as hell)
23:08	avishai	what if i don't do (def)
23:08	avishai	just (binding [d 3] (send a something))
23:08	brehaut	avishai: if you want thread shared mutable values, defs are probably the wrong choice anyway. look at atoms and refs
23:08	avishai	i want a shared config
23:08	avishai	atom seems overkill
23:08	llasram	brehaut: My reading of the clojure git logs doesn't show any obvious-to-me earlier binding conveyance, but I only started using Clojure w/ 1.3, so I don't know
23:09	avishai	another option is promise
23:09	brehaut	avishai: atoms are extremely the right choice
23:09	avishai	really? my gut said promises
23:09	Apage43	config seems like something you might want to change later
23:09	brehaut	depends if you want them to change
23:09	Apage43	which promises don't get you
23:09	avishai	no
23:09	brehaut	llasram: im running on recollections of the docs not actual trying it out, so who knows :P
23:09	avishai	i just populate the config in main
23:10	Apage43	at any rate, promises do get you that anything that tries to read it will block until its delivered
23:11	avishai	so, just to get my story straight:
23:11	Apage43	which might be what you want if you might be spooling off workers before you've loaded it
23:11	avishai	binding is thread local
23:11	avishai	and agents/futures dont see the values from it
23:11	avishai	they see the value from root binding established by def
23:11	brehaut	avishai they _do_ see values if you use future, future-call and send
23:12	Apage43	well, futures do
23:12	avishai	and if there is no def, they see.... what?
23:12	Apage43	creating a future captures the current bindings at the point it was created
23:12	llasram	What is the sound of one thread binding?
23:13	Apage43	avishai, if that name is not def'd anywhere the code won't compile
23:13	avishai	i should write a few test programs to get familiar i guess
23:13	avishai	10x
23:13	avishai	another question
23:14	avishai	suppose i have a program, which uses agents for parallelization
23:14	avishai	consume from q -> process message -> analyze -> send emails
23:14	avishai	send emails function is all about side effects
23:15	avishai	it feels wrong to use agents send-off for it
23:15	brehaut	avishai: also read the clojure.org docs on vars, refs, agents and atoms
23:15	llasram	That is one thing the clojure.org docs are definitely good for
23:15	avishai	since its state mutation is really artificial, the state change is really just to mark side effects happened
23:16	avishai	perhaps a watch is a better fit?
23:16	brehaut	ive forgotten who wrote the great java exectuors from clojure perspective blog post
23:16	llasram	Or just a thread pool
23:17	llasram	Oh, I'd be interested in reading that as well, brehaut
23:17	brehaut	http://blog.raek.se/2011/01/24/executors-in-clojure/
23:17	brehaut	i think thats the one i was thinking of
23:17	brehaut	maybe raek_ will jump in
23:19	ysawej	Hi all, what happend to data.codec
23:19	ysawej	I want to use base64 encode/decode methods
23:20	brehaut	ysawej: looking at the github, its currently a snapshot only
23:21	brehaut	you'll need the central snapshot repo in your project.clj
23:21	llasram	Efficient base64 in pure Clojure is cool and all, but any reason not to just use commons-codec etc?
23:22	brehaut	llasram: none that i have seen; i used commons-codec and it seems completely fine
23:22	brehaut	:repositories {"sonatype-snapshots" "https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/"}
23:23	brehaut	https://oss.sonatype.org/index.html#nexus-search;quick~data.codec
23:25	avishai	hmm:
23:25	avishai	user=> (def ^:dynamic test1 0)
23:25	avishai	#'user/test1
23:25	avishai	user=> (binding [test1 1] (send a #(conj % test1)))
23:25	avishai	‏#<Agent@21be6e23: [1]>
23:25	avishai	user=> (binding [test1 1] (send-off a #(conj % test1)))
23:25	avishai	‏#<Agent@21be6e23: [1 1]>
23:25	avishai	user=> (send-off a #(conj % test1))
23:25	avishai	‏#<Agent@21be6e23: [1 1 0]>
23:26	ysawej	okay, I was able to use it
23:26	ysawej	thank u brehaut
23:26	avishai	it seems agents do see the binding changes
23:26	ysawej	when will these libraries make into clojure core
23:26	ysawej	?
23:26	brehaut	ysawej: the commons stuff is really easy to use though; its just two static methods
23:26	ysawej	yep
23:27	brehaut	contrib makes no garuntees or promises about a library moving to core
23:27	brehaut	http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib for more
23:27	ysawej	yeah. but I feel there are many libraries for clojure in github, and its hard to differentiate well-designed ones from hacky ones
23:28	brehaut	contrib isnt exactly about highlighting projects as great
23:28	brehaut	its more about licensing and copyright, and a more formal process
23:29	brehaut	quality is an accidental consideration
23:29	brehaut	(licensing and copyright mean it _can_ be promoted clojure, not that it will)
23:29	hiredman	contrib libraries can end up being light weight due to the dependency policies
23:30	brehaut	hiredman: dependancy policies?
23:30	hiredman	at least for a while there was a 3rd party dependency ban
23:30	hiredman	maybe still?
23:31	brehaut	huh. unsurprisingly the confluence doesnt state this in a super obvious place
23:32	llasram	I think all dependencies need to be in Maven Central or at least Sonatype. No Clojars-only deps. But that's just a vague recollection from list-chatter surrounding the release of core.types
23:32	llasram	s,core.types,core.typed,
23:41	brehaut	ambrosebs: how did lambda jam go?
23:41	ambrosebs	brehaut: good thanks!
23:42	adu	lambda jam?
23:42	adu	sounds awesome
23:42	brehaut	good turn out to the core.typed stuff?
23:42	brehaut	adu: depends, sometimes it tastes a lot like birds
23:43	ambrosebs	brehaut: Yes, I was pleased. About ~110 ppl at the conference total, 3 tracks, probably about 20-30 people in the workshop.
23:43	brehaut	nice!
23:44	ambrosebs	brehaut: Scala and Haskell dominated as topics, so I wasn't sure how strong the Clojure presence would be.
23:44	brehaut	all those haskell and scala nerds probably had Opinions?
23:44	ambrosebs	Was pleasantly surprised.
23:44	brehaut	heh :)
23:44	ambrosebs	They weren't very vocal about them :P
23:45	ambrosebs	brehaut: did you see the workshop I posted?
23:45	brehaut	i saw the link, but i havent had a chance to watch it yet
23:45	brehaut	swamped with work :/
23:45	brehaut	(he says, while blathering in irc)
23:45	ambrosebs	:D
23:47	avishai	i'd like to re-raise my question about using agents for side effects
23:47	avishai	is that a good fit or is a watcher a better fit?
23:51	brehaut	or a threadpool, as suggested earlier