#clojure – 2013-05-18

2013-05-18

01:29	nonuby	clj-schema looks interesting, but there before that I have to co-erce the data, .e.g imagine a json endpoint, the one of key of the map should have a datetime value, so first step is check that its datetime string, second step is coerce into a datetime or joda instace, third step clj-schema validates the real map. is there anything that covers the first two inclusive of the third
01:47	tieTYT	is it a good practice to mark all my side-effect functions as dynamic so I can bind them for testing purposes?
01:53	nightfly__	That sounds like a pretty bad practice
02:01	avishai	hu
02:01	avishai	suppose i need worker threads
02:01	avishai	agents can do that, but it doesn't feel natural
02:01	avishai	should i just use java executors?
02:31	muhoo	is there some magick required to get lein-cljsbuild to see cljs sources? i'm looking in the jar, the cljs files are there, and yet, i'm getting goog.require errors
02:32	muhoo	auugh, nevermind :-/
02:52	tomoj	avishai: yes
03:56	tomoj	I want a programmer's thesaurus
03:56	flu-	rosetta code?
03:59	tomoj	that's cool, but I just mean domain words
03:59	tomoj	basically I want a book that thinks for me I guess :(
03:59	flu-	heheh
03:59	flu-	then we'll all be out of a job
04:02	spoon16	dependencies resolved via s3-private-wagon do not get cached in ~/.m2
04:04	tomoj	hmm.. my guess is that most programmers will conclude that the chinese room is absurd very soon after encountering it
04:05	tomoj	I'd like to think that's because they understand something searle doesn't.. :/
04:44	jjs	Wow. I just tripled my framerate by switching from `lein run' to `lein trampoline run'
04:58	swks	testing from emacs(sorry guys, just testing)
05:02	unsymbol	testing 1-2-3.
05:02	callen	jjs: framerate of what?
05:02	swks	messaging
05:02	swks	can't believe that emacs so powerfull
05:08	jjs	callen: this OpenGL thing I'm working on. Currently streaming CPU-generated (and CPU-bound!) pixel data to the GPU
05:09	tomoj	odd
05:09	tomoj	why should trampoline help?
05:09	tomoj	I thought the only difference was whether another JVM was left sitting around
05:09	swks	:q
05:11	jjs	It could have something to do with how much memory is available to the program, but the memory I'm mapping is directly (and natively) allocated by the GPU driver... so it shouldn't be part of the JVM heap...
05:11	callen	that is pretty damn strange
05:11	callen	stranger still is doing graphics work in the JVM :P
05:12	jjs	No, that shouldn't do it, either... top reports resident memory being stable ~480MB
05:13	jjs	callen: Why not? >:D
06:09	tomoj	I wrote "In reality, a clock never ticks. After a tick there is a new clock."
06:09	tomoj	I think the epochal time model has destroyed my brain
06:15	wink	lol
06:15	wink	I prefer to exchange my watch every second, this is I why I can't support atomic date times?
06:15	wink	*not
06:16	tomoj	hah AtomicDate
06:16	tomoj	don't tell rich
06:32	samrat	Raynes: tried using least.authorize but I'm getting {:error 13, :message "Invalid method signature supplied", :links []}
06:33	samrat	Raynes: I did exactly as the readme says
06:37	tomoj	"(ns core.async"
06:37	tomoj	wait, what?
06:38	tomoj	oh I guess somebody did `lein new core.async`
07:23	clojure-new	Hello.
07:25	naeg	hi clojure-new
07:25	clojure-new	I'm trying to make cond wrapper macro, like (defmacro [test body] `(cond (= ~test :predefined) (bla bla) ~@body))
07:26	clojure-new	I want body in format of (:test (bla bla) and i want expand it to (= test :test) (bla bla)
07:26	clojure-new	Is it possible?
07:26	clojure-new	(:test (bla bla))*
07:27	clojure-new	Oh wait, ((:test (bla bla) (:test2 (bla bla)), right.
07:27	clojure-new	((:test (bla bla)) (:test2 (bla bla))) It's so hard without paredit.
07:28	clojure-new	Let me write a paste.
07:31	clojure-new	https://www.refheap.com/paste/14726 here it is.
07:31	clojure-new	The questions is how can i transform ((:test1 (bla bla)) (:test2 (bla bla))) into cond args?
07:32	clojure-new	,(map #(list (list '= 'message (first %)) (list (last %))) '((:test1 (bla bla)) (:test2 (bla bla))))
07:32	clojurebot	(((= message :test1) ((bla bla))) ((= message :test2) ((bla bla))))
07:33	clojure-new	But it still wrong format for cond.
07:33	clojure-new	After @ it becames ((= message :test1) ((bla bla))) ((= message :test2) ((bla bla))).
07:33	clojure-new	I need (= message :test1) (bla bla) (= message :test2) (bla bla)
07:34	clojure-new	,(map #(list (list '= 'message (first %)) (last %)) '((:test1 (bla bla)) (:test2 (bla bla))))
07:34	clojurebot	(((= message :test1) (bla bla)) ((= message :test2) (bla bla)))
07:34	clojure-new	One step closer.
07:36	clojure-new	@(((= message :test1) (bla bla)) ((= message :test2) (bla bla))) => ((= message :test1) (bla bla)) ((= message :test2) (bla bla)) => ? => (= message :test1) (bla bla) (= message :test2) (bla bla)
07:36	clojure-new	Can you tell me what that "?" should be?
07:38	naeg	clojure-new: how about telling us what the actual problem is and giving a concrete example?
07:39	naeg	in like on sentence
07:39	naeg	one*
07:39	IamDrowsy	clojure-new: are you looking for something like case
07:39	IamDrowsy	,(doc case)
07:39	clojurebot	"([e & clauses]); Takes an expression, and a set of clauses. Each clause can take the form of either: test-constant result-expr (test-constant1 ... test-constantN) result-expr The test-constants are not evaluated. They must be compile-time literals, and need not be quoted. If the expression is equal to a test-constant, the corresponding result-expr is returned. A single default expression can foll...
07:39	Okasu	naeg: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14726 Make wrapper around cond.
07:43	clojure-new1	naeg: yes, like okasu said, i want to make something like wrawpper aroud cond
07:44	clojure-new1	IamDrowsy: thanks, i'll take a look.
07:44	naeg	it pretty much looks like case
07:44	IamDrowsy	the doc string is quite verbose... just look at some examples at clojuredocs
07:45	naeg	https://www.refheap.com/paste/14727
07:46	clojure-new1	thank you guys, its exactly what i wanted.
07:56	ddellacosta	wow, I'm just learning ClojureScript and I've come up against trying to pass object arguments to JS constructors…how do I do this in ClojureScript idiomatically? I'm finding a lot about using .strobj, and then things saying you shouldn't do that...
07:58	ddellacosta	seems like this was getting discussed a long time ago, so I'm guessing there is a natural way to do it these days...?
08:00	ddellacosta	ah, found it I think, cljs.core/js-obj
08:18	jugimaster	i'm new to clojure.. can i get by without having to touch maven/leiningen?
08:19	llasram	If you're a masochist, sure
08:19	jugimaster	:p
08:19	jugimaster	it's just that i come from a java background, and i remember maven being a massive, bloated pain in the butt
08:19	llasram	The little I've had to touch it has been pretty bad
08:20	jugimaster	mostly kind of useless too
08:20	llasram	Leiningen however is hands-down the best build/project tool I've ever used for any language
08:20	jugimaster	yeah.. so it seems a bit contradictory that something that's a bloated pile of shit in the java world, would suddenly be a vital, lovely part of every project's infrastructure when working with clojure
08:20	llasram	? Leiningen has nothing to do with Maven
08:21	jugimaster	what about ant?
08:21	jugimaster	no? hm
08:21	jugimaster	i thought it was based on maven
08:21	llasram	It used to use the dep-resolution parts of Maven, but not even that anymore
08:21	jugimaster	hm.. well, i guess i should take another look at leiningen.. but iirc, it wants you to work within a set project structure etc.. ?
08:22	jugimaster	basically i'm just wondering how.. "necessary" lein is
08:22	llasram	Yes, but it's entirely flexible
08:22	llasram	Well
08:22	llasram	Clojure is just another Java library, packaged as a JAR
08:22	jugimaster	mmm
08:22	llasram	If you'd rather wrangle JARs some other way / by hand
08:22	llasram	you can do that
08:22	llasram	But you're causing yourself a ton of unnecessary pain
08:23	jugimaster	yeah so.. lein's main benefit is dep handling?
08:23	jugimaster	kind of like PIP for python
08:23	jugimaster	?
08:23	jugimaster	i'm kind of confused about whether i "should" use clojure or golang
08:24	Foxboron	jugimaster: depends IMO
08:24	llasram	Think of it as more like a unified pip+virtualenv+ipython
08:24	jugimaster	but somehow i get the feeling that i'd like clojure's syntax better
08:24	jugimaster	hmm
08:24	Foxboron	Go is the same old C-syntax. Boring IMO. Clojure got this fancy LISP syntax which is "new" and interesting
08:24	jugimaster	sounds vaguely good :p
08:25	jugimaster	yeah well.. go's syntax looks just about decent enough.. but some C-likeness is leaking through and it scares me :p
08:25	jugimaster	for example some pointer stuff, which i have no clue about
08:25	jugimaster	i guess Go is more performant than Clojure though?
08:26	jugimaster	how reliable/kick-ass/lovely is http-kit?
08:31	scottj	jugimaster: http-kit is not widely used, yet.
08:31	jugimaster	yeah but should it be?
08:32	jugimaster	i mean, is it lovely? :p and "production-quality"?
08:32	jugimaster	or production-ready, etc
08:33	scottj	jugimaster: idk. I think the super-fast rewrite is very recent. rss miner, the site by the author, is the only one I know of that uses it but I'm not on the http-kit mailing list.
08:33	jugimaster	hmm
08:33	jugimaster	well, what would clojure people use, if you needed web sockets and asyncy stuff, if not http-kit?
08:35	jugimaster	it's kind of scary though, that if working with clojure, maybe i'd end up having to haul shitloads of useless JARs around, just so my app would function (or even start)
08:36	jugimaster	a big problem on the java side is whatever actually useful lib you might want to use depending on like a dozen commons-whatever.jar -shit-droplets
08:36	jugimaster	sooo.. is it possible to keep clojure projects "neat"?
08:37	jugimaster	with python it's lovely that practically everything i use just get slurped into the environment by pip, and it's all just python source code.. combined with whatever C-libs might get put in place - but i don't really have to mind that
08:38	llasram	That's why you use e.g. Leiningen. It pulls all the deps together. Build uberjars to deploy, bundling all your dependencies into one artifact
08:39	jugimaster	mmm
08:40	Foxboron	jugimaster: depends if you use venv or not. Sometimes you get dependency errors with pip.
08:40	jugimaster	sure, but i haven't run into any trouble yet myself
08:40	Foxboron	well really.
08:40	decaf	try working on an 64 bit windows 7
08:41	jugimaster	so can i sweep all the bloated bloatjars under the rug somehow, so that they wouldn't bother me with their presence? :p
08:41	Foxboron	jugimaster: you don't normally mind them at all. they just sit there.
08:41	jugimaster	hm
08:42	jugimaster	yeah i know, in a way.. i'd just like to keep them separate from my "actual projects" somehow
08:42	jugimaster	like, a project would be only the source code and resources that belong to the app _itself_.. and all deps would be somehow separate
08:42	llasram	You never actually see the JARs. The get background downloaded and cached -- usually in ~/.m2/ -- but you rarely need to even think about deps you aren't directly using yourself
08:43	llasram	You list your immediate deps, and that's it
08:43	llasram	Everything else is transparent, and your project only contains your source
08:43	jugimaster	ah right.. maven2.. back when i last used maven on a java project.. that .m2 directory ended up with a total fuckload of useless jars, eagerly gathered by maven
08:43	jugimaster	it just feels dirty
08:44	llasram	It's just a cache. Do you get upset about your OS filling your RAM with "dirty" disk blocks?
08:44	jugimaster	ok, so, without lein/maven hiding all that JAR shit somewhere, it's just a pain to manage the deps of whatever you might want to write?
08:44	jugimaster	:p
08:45	llasram	Without easy dependency management, then dependency management is not easy. Yes
08:45	jugimaster	:p
08:47	jugimaster	i keep repeating myself a bit.. but it's just that on python, even if you don't use pip, it's still like, cleaner to work with your deps manually.. mostly because typically one library is just one library, and doesn't have lots of useless deps to be lugged around with it.. basically, i guess my problem boils down to all those useless commons-whatevers that were stuffed into practically every java project i remember
08:48	jugimaster	in java projects, it was just easier to "include ALL the jars!" and usually just have your app work, without figuring out which jars it _actually_ needs
08:48	jugimaster	aand i guess as a result of that, something like maven was born
08:49	jugimaster	it was like an.. "at-least-seemingly-necessary evil" that people just lived with
08:50	llasram	Here's my take: environments naturally encourage libraries/modules to be of such granularity that the number/complexity of libraries is just below the threshold of pain
08:50	llasram	The experience with granularity across environments is not necessarily portable
08:50	jugimaster	except that java didn't.. that shit got way out of hand
08:51	llasram	Maven/Ivy may put you in XML-hell, but they definitely keep dependencies in order
08:51	jugimaster	but i guess.. if clojure apps tended to use some "new standard tools" that didn't have reams of unnecessary dependencies.. then that would be nice
08:51	jugimaster	for example, is hibernate a standard tool on the clojure side?
08:52	llasram	No
08:52	jugimaster	ok, what's replaced it?
08:52	Glenjamin	jugimaster: what concerns you about these "unnecessary dependencies" ?
08:52	jugimaster	Glenjamin: it's annoying to have to have them around
08:52	Glenjamin	oh, just read up - i think you just had this conversaion :)
08:52	jugimaster	:P
08:52	jugimaster	maybe
08:53	Glenjamin	dependencies = code i didn't have to write = good
08:53	llasram	AFAICT most people using Clojure with relational DBs don't use an ORM
08:53	jugimaster	Glenjamin: yeah, but "a bunch of commons-turd.jars that nothing in this app _actually needs/uses_" is Bad.. :p
08:54	Glenjamin	why?
08:54	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
08:54	jugimaster	because they shouldn't be there?
08:54	Glenjamin	if the cost of having them there is greater than the benefit of using whatever depends on them, then sure
08:54	Glenjamin	but i don't believe that is the case
08:54	jugimaster	it makes sense that "code i didn't have to write" would be good.. assuming it's good code, and does exactly what you needed, of course
08:55	jugimaster	yep
09:18	xificurC	hi, I'm a little puzzled here, if I downloaded and installed leiningen did I also get the lastest version of clojure?
09:19	xificurC	also could you point me to the current most used emacs+clojure choice?
09:19	llasram	xificurC: From the JVM perspective Clojure is just another library. Leiningen will download whatever version of Clojure a project specifies for that project to use
09:20	xificurC	llasram, ok thanks. What about emacs, do people use slime for clojure?
09:21	scottj	xificurC: people are moving to nrepl.el
09:21	llasram	Yah
09:21	llasram	Yah on what scottj said, to clarify
09:21	llasram	Use Emacs 24 and the builtin package manager. You'll need to add Marmalade as a package source, but then you can use `M-x package-list-packages` to install clojure-mode and nrepl.el
09:23	xificurC	cool I uesd nrepl before so I might be able to install it on this pc too
09:23	xificurC	thanks!
09:23	llasram	np!
09:24	xificurC	do you guys recommend these settings to be added https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el#configuration
09:25	llasram	Those are personal decisions you will need to make yourself :-)
09:26	xificurC	meh I never liked paredit
09:26	llasram	Then you are in the minority, sir
09:27	llasram	It took me a little getting used to at first, but now I'm not sure how anyone programs in a sexp-based language w/o it
09:27	tomoj	llasram: really? or are we just a very vocal minority :)
09:27	tomoj	I still owe lau a screencast I think.. :/
09:28	xificurC	llasram, I dont see a problem finishing up my parens right. Maybe editing the code is easier with it?
09:28	llasram	tomoj: Almost everyone I know who has stuck with Clojure / been successful with it uses structural editing
09:29	tomoj	I should just record myself for a bit, I always wanted to do a nice tutorial screencast
09:29	llasram	xificurC: Yeah, there's two parts IMHO. (1) You just don't need to ever even worry about mis-matched parens. It never happens, so you stop even thinking about it
09:29	tomoj	just watch someone skilled use paredit, you'll see :)
09:30	llasram	(2) You stop editing your code as lines and instead purely as sexps. You can change structure in a way which makes sense for the language syntax with just a small collection of structural primitives
09:30	tomoj	and navigate
09:30	xificurC	I'd probably need to sit next to a heavy emacs user to learn all the editing tricks
09:31	tomoj	though I feel like getting good at navigation is a big investment, I still think I'm much clumsier navigating that the ideal paredit user after.. years
09:31	scottj	xificurC: maybe check this out http://emacsrocks.com/e14.html
09:33	xificurC	ill take a look scottj thanks
09:34	jugimaster	so what do clojure folks use instead of hibernate?
09:34	llasram	SQL
09:34	jugimaster	jdbc?
09:34	jugimaster	is there anything like SQLAlchemy?
09:34	jugimaster	it's great
09:35	llasram	Korma is probably the closest, but it has several detractors as well: https://github.com/korma/Korma
09:36	xificurC	even strings close up? I dont remember that happening a couple months ago
09:50	dhl	jugimaster: Have you checked out ClojureQL? http://clojureql.org/
09:53	xificurC	paredit-splice-sexp-killing-backward <-- lovely name that is
09:57	xificurC	I dont understand why programmers dislike lisps. I'm no programmer and I love it
09:59	r0bglees0n	xificurC: i dont have an impression that programmers dislike lisps
10:03	xificurC	r0bglees0n, I feel like lisps arent popular enough. You see java, c#, python, ruby and such everywhere but not much common lisp, clojure, scheme or the like
10:03	hyPiRion	r0bglees0n: I have an impression that some programmers disklike the parentheses because there are so many of them
10:05	Glenjamin	sometimes when i line ends in ))))))) i :(
10:05	hyPiRion	I'm happy as long as I have my rainbow parens
10:06	Glenjamin	i really need to switch to a better editor
10:07	hyPiRion	Glenjamin: what are you currently using?
10:07	Glenjamin	sublime
10:08	hyPiRion	Well, it does have some plugins, doesn't it?
10:08	Glenjamin	yeah, but doesn't have anything that does rainbow
10:08	Glenjamin	it's ok, but i should really try and switch to emacs for clojure
10:09	hyPiRion	Well, you should give it a try at least
10:10	kmicu	xificurC: Justin Bieber is popular, does that mean that it is good? #popularenoughsyndrome
10:11	jugimaster	dhl: that looks promising, thanks!
10:12	xificurC	kmicu, of course im not saying everything popular is good, im just often frustrated when something good remains unknown or underground
10:12	kmicu	Glenjamin: https://github.com/masondesu/sublime-paredit
10:12	dhl	jugimaster: :-)
10:12	Glenjamin	kmicu: i'm using that, it's kinda buggy but better than nothing :)
10:12	jugimaster	:p
10:20	kmicu	Glenjamin: You can always try to migrate to https://github.com/fatih/subvim and after that to emacs with evil-mode x]
10:29	swks	hello there
10:30	hyPiRion	1hey
10:30	swks	feeling frustrating, more than 2 hours trying to figure out what's wrong with my emacs config
10:30	swks	trying to set it up ready for clojure development
10:30	swks	http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/emacs.html
10:31	swks	doing everything line by line, but getting symbol doesn't recognized exceptions
10:32	hyPiRion	On the configure emacs-part?
10:32	swks	Maybe it's something wrong with repl
10:34	kmicu	If you are a fresh emacs user you should try some OOTB configs like https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
10:35	kmicu	And you can start coding clojure in emacs in 5 minutes.
10:36	swks	kmicu: thanks, looks AWESOME!
11:15	m0smith	hi
11:16	m0smith	Is it possible to treat am interface (ILookup) as a protocol?
11:16	m0smith	Basically I have an object I want to be able to treat as a "map"
11:19	bbloom	m0smith: i'm not sure what you're asking about RE interfaces vs protocols, but it's actually quite a lot of work to provide a correct implementation of all the map interfaces. if you just want ILookup (and not, say, equality and seq and all that) then just read the docs for deftype
11:23	Glenjamin	you mean defrecord?
11:32	alandipert	m0smith: you can't extend-type an interface to your class, sadly. you can implement ILookup with reify and make a function that converts your objects into franken-maps, or you can make a full-blown type as bbloom points out. (http://david-mcneil.com/post/16535755677/clojure-custom-map is handy reference)
11:33	alandipert	m0smith: generally if i need java objects to be associative i will convert them to maps via reduce, bean, or similar
11:36	pppaul	anyone in here use emacs live?
11:37	pppaul	i've been using starterkit for a few years, just started playing with live… wondering if anyone in this channels has any thoughts on it
11:46	@rhickey	there are now docs for core.async alt and async (but impls still wip) for those following along
11:48	bbloom	rhickey: cool! just the docstrings right now? or is there a broader overview somewhere? a design doc or something
11:50	@rhickey	there are lots of design docs on my machine
11:51	@rhickey	I haven't put into a narrative for users yet
11:51	@rhickey	but basically its CSP-like channels, with thread blocking and inversion-of-control parking impls
11:52	@rhickey	the latter allowing for high-connection count servers on the JVM and use by CLJS wherever it runs
11:53	bbloom	excellent. dnolen & i and a few others were already plotting a CLJS port in here yesterday :-)
11:53	@rhickey	hopefully the death of callback hell
11:53	@rhickey	the team will probably be doing a cljs version, and I hope to jugger the code so a minimal amount of cljs-specifics will be needed
11:53	@rhickey	jigger
11:54	@rhickey	So you should ping Timothy Baldridge to coordinate for cljs if you want to help out
11:54	bbloom	ok, even better! thanks
11:55	@rhickey	cljs will be trivial, no locks needed
11:56	m0smith	alandipert: Thanks. The problem I have is I want to not modify the original object. It implements an interface but I need to keep the original implementation to pass back
11:56	@rhickey	but same design and engine, queues of parked callbacks are used even in the blocking version, blocking is just at edges
11:56	bbloom	yeah, I think that the IOC stuff will be absolutely killer for CLJS
11:56	m0smith	What I really need to to be able to build a protocol from an existing interface
11:57	m0smith	but I have not pried openthe protocol black box to see what is inside yet
11:58	@rhickey	we'll also move to FJ pools on the parking JVM version
11:58	pppaul	where can i read the docs for core.async?
11:58	bbloom	pppaul: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/commits/master
11:59	@rhickey	I saw there were some questions about scheduler etc for cljs, that won't be necesary
11:59	@rhickey	y
11:59	pppaul	i guess the tests are the docs
12:00	@rhickey	pppaul: it's work in progress, not for consumption yet if you don't want to read code
12:00	pppaul	i like reading code
12:00	@rhickey	tests are not docs, there are doc strings
12:00	@rhickey	feedback for which is welcome
12:06	@rhickey	ok, gotta run, hopefully in a few days it will be ready for more tire-kicking, including some narrative
12:07	pppaul	docs seem good, though i still have little idea as to how to use this.
12:07	Okasu	Hi, trying to create table using korma connection but failing, https://www.refheap.com/paste/14733 . Whats wrong there?
12:10	bbloom	pppaul: i think that this golang video is a good intro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6kdp27TYZs
12:10	pppaul	thanks. watching
12:11	juxovec	hi
12:11	juxovec	do any of you use Luminus (Clabango)?
12:11	juxovec	Have you ever seen: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: context-lookup in this context (tags.clj:67)
12:13	wink	juxovec: could you pastebin some code? :)
12:14	juxovec	i have no clue which part of my application causes this problem
12:14	juxovec	exception is from clabango 67 https://github.com/danlarkin/clabango/blob/master/src/clabango/tags.clj function from https://github.com/danlarkin/clabango/blob/master/src/clabango/filters.clj
12:14	wink	juxovec: looks like if/endif, yea
12:15	wink	I'd check the templates first
12:15	juxovec	yes, there is {% if message %} {{message}} {% endif %} in my templates
12:16	juxovec	this is only if in my templates at all
12:19	wink	juxovec: are you using it any different than by using render in layout?
12:20	wink	otherwise no clue, sorry
12:22	juxovec	when I remove posted snippet problem disappears
12:22	wink	maybe you managed to get a non-default whitespace in there?
12:23	wink	or it can't do singleline? :P
12:23	wink	I'm poking in the dark here
12:29	tomoj	hmm.. death of callback hell? OK. but aren't we just in CSP limbo? :)
12:29	tomoj	I still need to read hoare
12:30	tomoj	s/OK./yes!/
12:30	dnolen	brainproxy: pushed out mori 0.2.0 to npm
12:33	bbloom	tomoj: i'm still not sure why you are so negative on CSP
12:33	tomoj	I chose "limbo" in an attempt to not be so negative
12:33	bbloom	negative connotation to me :-)
12:34	tomoj	well, yeah, it ain't heaven
12:34	clojurebot	Huh?
12:35	tomoj	suppose you could get a lazy seq of mouse events w/ batik. abuse of lazy seqs?
12:35	tomoj	well it wouldn't really be lazy huh, but a seq at least
12:36	bbloom	seqs are defined by two operations: first and next. channels have two DIFFERENT operations: put! and take!
12:36	tomoj	yeah
12:37	bbloom	channels are inherently queues, optionally bounded, and inherently mutable
12:37	tomoj	just hypothetically
12:37	tomoj	the thing is, I don't want to be forced into exclamation points just because cljs only has one thread
12:37	bbloom	lazy seqs are "pure" in the sense that successive calls to first or next on the same seq produce the same results
12:37	bbloom	but "exclamation points" aren't inherently bad if you need to actually have some effect on the outside world
12:38	tomoj	definitely, in that case I'm fully on board
12:38	bbloom	and that "outside world" might very well be just the world outside of your little function if you are modeling your program as communicating sequential processes
12:38	tomoj	(my s/OK./yes!/ was an attempt to indicate that in some respects I am not negative but quite positive :))
12:38	tomoj	yeah
12:39	tomoj	but I don't want to be forced into making a small component of a cljs program a CSP just because I can't block
12:39	bbloom	so you'd rather callback hell?
12:39	tomoj	no, that's why "yes!"
12:39	tomoj	I'd rather heaven
12:40	tomoj	"limbo" is probably unfair, there's just something else I want _too_ :(
12:40	@rhickey	bbloom: how would you know what happened w/o labels?
12:41	@rhickey	good deck on csp http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/projects/ofa/jcsp/jcsp.pdf
12:41	bbloom	rhickey: do you always care what happened? i'm thinking about golang where they don't have labels, but i guess they get around the problem by allowing assignment statements in select clauses
12:42	@rhickey	yeah, golang is awfully imperative there
12:42	@rhickey	you can always ignore the lables
12:42	@rhickey	labels
12:42	@rhickey	jeez, autocorrector
12:42	bbloom	can i have duplicate labels? ie if i want to label something :_ just like a _ in let bindings?
12:43	@rhickey	yes
12:43	bbloom	then i guess it's effectively optional :-)
12:43	pppaul	what is CSP?
12:43	@rhickey	well, there must be labels
12:43	tomoj	$google CSP
12:43	lazybot	[Communicating sequential processes - Wikipedia, the free ...] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_processes
12:45	bbloom	i know that the labels are necessary for some cases, but thinking through the little mini google search engine demo rob pike did. he didn't really care which "search backend" responded. each one just yielded (or didn't) a search result & that got shoved into a result set
12:45	@rhickey	pppaul: see link I just posted
12:45	bbloom	rhickey: that pdf isn't loading for me
12:45	@rhickey	bbloom: I don't see that case worth the complexity of optionality
12:46	bbloom	rhickey: fair enough. i haven't written a lot of CSP code, just toyed with golang a bit. the labels thing was simply noticeably different from go, so i thought worth analyzing
12:47	pppaul	looking at it now @rhickey
12:47	@rhickey	go is imperative, select is a statement not an expression
12:47	tomoj	rhickey: so are stu's future seqs doomed? or maybe we can build them on top of CSP?
12:47	@rhickey	future seqs?
12:48	tomoj	there was a little experiment in cljque called that, just replacing the 'rest' of a seq with an INotify basically
12:51	cbp`	callen: did the paste help you? Let me know if you need me to do more I have plenty of time this weekend
12:51	tomoj	I probably inappropriately took the disappearance of cljque as a sign that there may be a dead end waiting that way
12:57	tomoj	"The theory of CSP includes mutually consistent denotational semantics, algebraic semantics, and operational semantics." hooray
12:58	bbloom	rhickey: you asked for doc feedback: could mention duplicate labels are allowed
13:00	bbloom	except :default, of course
13:02	tomoj	looks like multiple :default will work, but would be a cruel thing to write
13:02	tomoj	oh, no, the extras will get dropped
13:03	bbloom	,(case 1 :x 2 :x 3)
13:03	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate case test constant: :x>
13:03	bbloom	it's nice to catch such errors at macro expansion time. alt could warn about duplicate :default
13:13	tomoj	huh, it looks like a chan with a nil buf will just keep all its puts forever?
13:17	tomoj	oh no I was just using it wrong
13:18	bbloom	tomoj: in theory no buffer would block
13:18	bbloom	http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#channels talks about buffered & unbuffered channels
13:18	bbloom	looks like core.async lets you override the specific buffer type & there are a few choices
13:20	bbloom	tomoj: http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all is also worth reading, since 0mq sockets are basically CSP channels. 0mq also has pluggable dropping or blocking or whatever semantics for different socket types
13:23	tomoj	bbloom: what I mean is if the buf is nil, the puts never seem to be dequeued
13:23	bbloom	tomoj: really? channels.clj line 99
13:24	Roxxi	How on earth to you convert a decimal in clojure to an integer... a clojure integer, not a java int or long... ? I've been racking my brain on this for the better part of 2 hours :)
13:24	bbloom	(and buf …) is false, so the (let [iter ….) code runs
13:24	tomoj	but where's the dequeue?
13:24	tomoj	it just seems to iterate and leave them there
13:25	tomoj	... or does a LinkedList iterator remove elements as it goes O_o
13:26	tomoj	I can't figure out how to get a (chan nil) to do anything interesting inside async though
13:27	bbloom	tomoj: hmm looking
13:28	bbloom	tomoj: first, it's a java.util.Queue, not a LinkedList
13:28	bbloom	tomoj: oh no, apparently LinkedList is a queue
13:28	bbloom	sorry
13:29	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/431be648070c2d028ffe3d499
13:29	tomoj	must be getting dequeued somewhere
13:29	bbloom	i dunno, i'm not smart enough to read functions this long, hence i don't write them lol
13:31	bbloom	tomoj: looks like cleanup calls remove on the iterator
13:32	bbloom	i'm glad somebody else is writing all this locking code lol
13:32	lfranchi	hi guys... i'm trying to do an unsigned bit shift in clojure (like http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-827) but wonder if there is an easy way to do so without building my own clojure w/ that patch from source
13:32	lfranchi	any ideas?
13:33	bbloom	lfranchi: unfortunately the easiest thing to do is to write the function & java and call it from your clojure code
13:33	tomoj	but only if the putter is not active
13:33	lfranchi	bbloom: i see
13:33	tomoj	and a fn-handler is always active..
13:33	lfranchi	haven't written any java in a long time... time to see :)
13:34	bbloom	lfranchi: it's a trivial static function that simply uses the >>> operator
13:34	lfranchi	bbloom: yeah, i meant i need to work out how to tell lein to compile the java and get all the imports right. doing so atm
13:35	bbloom	tomoj: i have no idea. my brain hurts trying to read the channel code :-)
13:36	pjstadig	lfranchi: there is a way to do it in clojure, but it is not as performant as writing a java method would be
13:37	pjstadig	lfranchi: https://github.com/pjstadig/clojure-clojure/blob/master/src/name/stadig/clojure_clojure.clj#L64-L69
13:37	tomoj	oh, no, they are never dequeued
13:37	lfranchi	pjstadig: ah nice :) that's what i was looking for, to avoid having to figure that out myself :)
13:37	bbloom	tomoj: can you create a test case or something? i'm sure they'd appreciate the bug report haha
13:37	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6046b19e48de756fed7ff6f18
13:37	lfranchi	performance isn't really important (this is not "real" production code0
13:38	tomoj	dunno if that's a bug..
13:40	lfranchi	pjstadig: thanks! works :)
13:40	bbloom	pjstadig: good call
13:48	tomoj	I wonder if buffer chans break the denotational semantics
13:56	lfranchi	pjstadig: hm actually, either i'm missing some sublety here or it's not working right: https://gist.github.com/lfranchi/5605271
13:56	lfranchi	shouldn't the former be the same as the latter?
14:01	dnolen	lfranchi: you need to change Long/MAX_VALUE to Integer/MAX_VALUE
14:01	dnolen	Scala Int is 32 bits, but integer type default is 64 bit for Clojure
14:02	lfranchi	ahhh
14:02	lfranchi	man, i didn't think the hardest part of all of this would have been shifting a few bits around :)
14:02	lfranchi	thanks
14:17	tomoj	this lock-id/active? stuff looks intriguing
14:17	tomoj	wish I understood it
14:19	mrb_bk	core.async looks nice
14:20	tomoj	lock-id vaguely reminds me of lattice-kanren lvars
14:27	tomoj	hmm not really though
14:41	muhoo	i vaguely remember seeing an example in someone's code or a tutorial/blogpost on extending a goofy java object to implement the clojure array map protocol, so that instead of (.data foo "blah") i could do (:blah foo). but now i can't find it.
14:44	arrdem	given that this is rather heritical, but has anyone looked at optimizing immutability out of clojure code?
14:44	tomoj	muhoo: don't think it's possible
14:44	tomoj	you can wrap
14:45	tomoj	ILookup isn't a protocol on the jvm so :(
14:45	mefesto	does extend-type do that?
14:45	bbloom	arrdem: you mean like haskell & linear types ?
14:46	mefesto	,(doc extend-type)
14:46	clojurebot	"([t & specs]); A macro that expands into an extend call. Useful when you are supplying the definitions explicitly inline, extend-type automatically creates the maps required by extend. Propagates the class as a type hint on the first argument of all fns. (extend-type MyType Countable (cnt [c] ...) Foo (bar [x y] ...) (baz ([x] ...) ([x y & zs] ...))) expands into: (extend MyType Countable {:cnt (...
14:47	arrdem	bbloom: maybe. I've just been musing that especially for -> usages it would be more efficient to sequentially and side-effectfully update the mutated object where a proof of side-effect containment is possible.
14:47	tomoj	ILookup isn't a protocol so extend doesn't help
14:47	mefesto	tomoj: doesn't it work for both interfaces as well as protocols?
14:47	tomoj	you can extend a protocol to an interface
14:48	tomoj	you can't extend an interface to a class or an interface to an interface
14:48	bbloom	arrdem: transients are there for mutability & performance, but there is no proof system for containment of side effects
14:48	bbloom	arrdem: as far as i know, there has been no work for automatic optimization of this nature
14:48	bbloom	(at least in clojure)
14:48	arrdem	w00t thesis idea get1
14:49	bbloom	haha
14:49	mefesto	tomoj: ah i see
14:49	tomoj	arrdem: when you fork clojure and add a type system lemme know
14:49	tomoj	;)
14:50	arrdem	tomoj: lol that's been on the todo list for a while :p
14:50	arrdem	tomoj: I think it's gonna stay there for a while too
14:50	tomoj	or maybe gradual types could help enough someday
14:51	muhoo	tomoj: it looks like extend-type ILookup, Associative, and Counted might do it
14:51	muhoo	it was from BP's slides from cljwest 2012, i found it
14:51	tomoj	.. again, ILookup is not a protocol
14:54	muhoo	ah, ok, right in clj it's not. in cljs it is, which is how people extend js things to do (:foo bar)
14:54	muhoo	crap
14:54	r0bglees0n	is cljs going to get better at inter-op with JS libraries?
14:55	bbloom	r0bglees0n: what particular problems do you have?
14:55	tomoj	that it's a protocol in cljs is nice but also seems.. dangerous
14:55	muhoo	r0bglees0n: what you mean better?
14:55	muhoo	i've been jquerying my ass off in cljs and had no problems.
14:56	r0bglees0n	bbloom: I wanted to use clojurescript for a toy project i'm working on (to help learn clojure) but I found if i wanted to use something like jquery i had to use a wrapper, and that other JS libraries had issues because the google compiler doesn't export enough information(going off rusty memory now)
14:56	tomoj	maybe if you put a warning label on your library that says "this library extends A,B,C protocols to X,Y,Z native classes" it's ok
14:56	tomoj	strictly it would seem only clojurescript core is allowed to extend to those classes
14:57	bbloom	tomoj: the general rule is that you can only extend a protocol you own or an existing protocol to a type you own
14:57	r0bglees0n	bbloom: it didn't seem drop-in-and-works like coffeescript but i know its young
14:57	bbloom	r0bglees0n: you're talking about three different things
14:57	muhoo	cljs is not coffeescript. thankfully.
14:58	r0bglees0n	yeah i dont like coffeescript
14:58	r0bglees0n	actually prefer JS
14:58	bbloom	r0bglees0n: 1) coffeescript IS javascript for all intents and purposes. there is no standard library, no module system, no build process other than the trivial compilation process
14:58	tomoj	yeah, and who owns the native browser classes?
14:58	tomoj	URL comes to mind
14:58	muhoo	coffeescript seems like javascript for people who prefer ruby.
14:58	r0bglees0n	muhoo: yup. i van vouch to that.
14:58	r0bglees0n	can*
14:58	bbloom	r0bglees0n: 2) compatibility with google closure advanced compilation is a separate concern for using external JS libraries. it's pretty easy to adapt libraries to work w/ closure & google provides good docs on how to do that. most popular libraries are already adapted somewhere on the web
14:59	tomoj	er, goog.net.URI or whatever I mean
14:59	bbloom	r0bglees0n: 3) creating more clojure-idomatic libraries is a separate concern as well. jquery, for example, provides many javascript specific conveniences. wrappers can recover those conveniences at the syntax level, but aren't necessary to call the libraries directly if you don't mind the interop syntax goop
15:00	bbloom	r0bglees0n: on an unrelated note, i don't think cljs is a really good place to learn clojure. you're much better off learning on the JVM
15:00	r0bglees0n	ah thats interesting
15:01	r0bglees0n	i thought jquery simply didnt work on cljs without a wrapper
15:02	weavejester	Does anyone know of a good name for a function that does (reduce #(%2 %1) x fs) ?
15:02	bbloom	cljs, like clj proper, is designed to call host code without any adaptors, proxy objects, or anything like that. you can call ANY javascript code. the only concern is that if you want google advanced compilation (necessary for small code size & good perf) then the library needs to be prepped for that
15:02	weavejester	It seems like something that might have been written before in Haskell or something
15:03	r0bglees0n	bbloom: makes sense now, thanks
15:03	r0bglees0n	bbloom: is it much work to prep a library?
15:03	bbloom	r0bglees0n: read the google closure compiler docs
15:03	r0bglees0n	alright
15:04	r0bglees0n	haha
15:04	r0bglees0n	interesting choice of name
15:04	r0bglees0n	only caught that now
15:04	r0bglees0n	ok, thanks bbloom
15:05	bbloom	weavejester: hmm mapf ?
15:05	bbloom	or no… hmm
15:06	bbloom	weavejester: i don't even know how to ask hoogle that b/c each function could have a different input/output type
15:07	weavejester	I guess it would be: (a -> a) -> [a] -> a
15:07	bbloom	wouldn't it be a -> [a -> a] -> a
15:08	weavejester	Uh, right, sorry, I'm confusing myself :)
15:09	bbloom	weavejester: for all the haskellers' talk of higher order functions, having a list of functions totally fucks with your type system lol
15:10	weavejester	bbloom: True, but in this case they're all the same type.
15:10	weavejester	Hoogle doesn't know...
15:10	bbloom	weavejester: i think they wouldn't name that function
15:10	weavejester	It's kinda like a backward iterate
15:10	bbloom	map ($ x) fs
15:10	bbloom	isn't that what it is really?
15:11	amalloy	bbloom: not at all
15:11	weavejester	No, it's not a map
15:11	bbloom	er it's a reduce, right...
15:11	bbloom	um
15:11	bbloom	hm
15:11	weavejester	It's given a list of changes, apply those changes in order to a value, then return the result.
15:11	bbloom	amalloy: ?
15:11	amalloy	foldr ($) x fs, more or less
15:11	bbloom	heh, i knew there was a ($) in there somewhere
15:11	bbloom	my haskell sucks.
15:12	amalloy	mine too
15:12	weavejester	Yeah, and in Clojure it's just (reduce #{%2 %1) x ys) which doesn't save you a lot over (foo x ys)
15:12	weavejester	But I'm using this so often it seems reasonable to create a function.
15:13	amalloy	weavejester: isn't it also ((apply comp fs) x)?
15:13	amalloy	no, i guess that's the wrong order
15:13	bbloom	yeah, you need a reverse in there
15:14	weavejester	The stream of functions is essentially lazy.
15:14	weavejester	Actually it's an asynchronous event stream
15:14	bbloom	amalloy: weren't we just discussing with technomancy how i want a pipe function which is like a reversed comp without the cost of calling reverse ? :-P
15:15	bbloom	i guess you could write rcomp (i'd call it pipeline or something) pretty easily
15:16	tomoj	is that what lamina's pipeline is, plus a point on top?
15:16	tomoj	well plus async stuff
15:17	tomoj	weavejester: you seen core.async yet?
15:17	tomoj	(the new one)
15:17	weavejester	No. I didn't know anything was put in there yet.
15:17	tomoj	https://github.com/clojure/core.async
15:18	tomoj	not usable yet of course
15:20	weavejester	I might be able to use some of that.
15:35	muhoo	i cant' do ILookup, but maybe Afn will work
15:36	tomoj	AFn isn't a protocol either..
15:36	tomoj	if you have a goofy java class you're boned
15:36	muhoo	and valAt looks like it's in clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
15:37	tomoj	no it's clojure.lang.ILookup
15:37	tomoj	you're gonna have to wrap
15:39	muhoo	i can't. i'm using a library that gives me this garbage.
15:39	muhoo	then again, maybe not, maybe i should just scrap the whole thing and use somethign that's already wrapped
15:39	tomoj	yeah, so take the garbage and wrap it
15:40	tomoj	or just convert to a map :)
15:40	muhoo	true, could write my own wrapper. might do just as an exercise
15:42	muhoo	i continually find myself having to deal with java garbage, and i have to learn to get better at wrapping it idiomatically. i won't escape this as long as i'm using clojure.
15:42	muhoo	(on JVM)
15:50	ysawej	hi all, how do I find the cartesian product of a collection of lists?
15:51	ysawej	so if it is just 2 lists, I can do a (for [ [x y] [list1 list2]] do-something)
15:51	tomoj	$google clojure cartesian product
15:51	lazybot	[Creating a cartesian product with to lists (Clojure forum at JavaRanch)] http://www.coderanch.com/t/546161/clojure/Creating-cartesian-product-lists
15:51	ysawej	but for a variable number of lists, how can I specify it in for, specifically?
15:51	tomoj	not what I was hoping for
15:52	tomoj	you can't https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics
15:53	ysawej	okay, but is there a lazy way to get it?
15:53	tomoj	the one in math.combinatorics is lazy
15:54	ysawej	looks like combinatorics will help, but I was looking for something in "for" itself, but looks like its not possible
15:54	tomoj	indeed
15:57	ysawej	thanks anyways tomoj
16:33	muhoo	but... now i'm confused. in Clojure Programming, he's doing a deftype that implements IPersistentSet. i try to run that code and the compiler blows up because i can't implement an interface.
16:33	muhoo	page 294, if anyone is interested
16:34	llasram	You can definitely use deftype to create types implementing interfaces
16:37	tomoj	(coin -> (choc -> (coin -> (choc -> STOP))))
16:38	tomoj	how does this map to core.async?
16:39	tomoj	I mean the coins are put! into the machine and the chocs are take!'d, right? but the term there doesn't seem to distinguish
16:40	tomoj	oh, man, looks like I have to read 135 pages before I get to put! and take!
16:50	brainproxy	dnolen: very cool!
16:51	jabb	so leinengen creates a line with the comment ";; work around dangerous default behaviour in Clojure" but after searching I have no idea what it's supposed to fix
16:51	jabb	it sets the read-eval global variable to (constantly false)
16:52	jabb	should every clojure program have that line?
16:53	hiredman	ugh, really?
16:53	bbloom	hiredman: yeah, in the "app" template
16:53	hiredman	it's true, never update
16:53	hiredman	upgrade
16:54	jabb	what's the "ugh" for? :P
16:54	bbloom	jabb: you only need that line if you're using clojure.core/read when you should be using clojure.edn/read
16:54	jabb	I see. What's the default behaviour if I don't have it.
16:55	bbloom	read-eval is discussed at great length on the mailing lists
16:55	bbloom	do a search on google groups
16:56	jabb	ahh, security risk
17:07	tomoj	brainproxy: what's cool?
17:08	brainproxy	dnolen pushed out v0.2.0 of mori to the npm registry
17:08	tomoj	ah
17:08	brainproxy	I already have some things in mind for v0.2.1
17:08	brainproxy	:D
17:08	brainproxy	will send some pull reqs later...
17:37	hadronzoo	Is there an RRB-Tree implementation for ClojureScript? Flexvec doesn't seem to be ported yet.
17:46	tomoj	flexvec is the only rrb-tree impl I know of
17:47	hadronzoo	tomoj: Actually, I only need efficient head and tail insertion. Is there a double-linked list library for both Clojure and ClojureScript?
17:51	tomoj	not that I know of
17:51	tomoj	I think data.finger-tree supports that, but it hasn't been ported either
17:51	tomoj	oh looks like there may be some separate impls for finger trees in cljs though
17:51	tomoj	but unlike flexvec porting data.finger-tree should be relatively easy I'd think
17:52	tomoj	https://github.com/wagjo/data.cljs ?
18:02	tomoj	why do core.async Handlers need Locking?
18:02	Raynes	jabb: What? Really?
18:02	Raynes	The default app template does that?
18:03	Raynes	I'm going to beat the shit out of somebody.
18:03	Raynes	who*
18:04	amalloy	Raynes: bet you a dollar it's technomancy
18:04	Raynes	It is.
18:04	callen	?>":
18:05	callen	cbp`: :)
18:05	jabb	Raynes: (alter-var-root #'read-eval (constantly false))
18:07	Raynes	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/3aec2e4de96bb08b2a41e2d444128d08d968f7d9
18:07	Raynes	amalloy: Your dollar is in the mail.
18:07	tomoj	at least it's not hidden somewhere
18:07	tomoj	not like you probably weren't going to just delete -main anyway :)
18:08	tomoj	oh the concerns in your comment seem valid to me
18:08	Raynes	Yes, but it just confused the hell out of jabb which is a particularly fair reason to let this come up in other ways.
18:09	tomoj	what if it had a link?
18:09	Raynes	Templates are not documentation.
18:09	tomoj	I guess the problem is that "other ways" should not include "oh shit we got hacked"
18:09	Raynes	They are scaffolding.
18:09	cbp`	callen: hi what's up
18:10	tomoj	but how else is a newbie likely to find out about this problem?
18:11	callen	cbp`: being a wastrel. looked at your refheap
18:11	callen	cbp`: is that thread-safe? I think it needs wrapped in a ref or something.
18:11	hadronzoo	tomoj: thanks. I'm going to try wagjo's ftree.cljs.
18:11	technomancy	Raynes: read-eval as defaulting to true for versions of clojure that predate read-edn is a horrible idea
18:12	cbp`	callen: yea probably
18:12	Glenjamin	is there any other way to add a plugin dependency other than project.clj and profiles.clj?
18:12	tomoj	hadronzoo: even though it's deprecated in favor of data.cljs?
18:13	callen	problem is ref means "retry"
18:13	callen	not really what we want here.
18:13	technomancy	it's easy to fix if you do care about it and easy to ignore if you don't. and also easy to ignore if you don't care about it but really should because of how easy it is to screw up.
18:13	callen	probably more like an atom or something.
18:13	Raynes	technomancy: Well how about we change the template to scrape jira and add a link to every open Clojure bug. Maybe we can also add some logic to find ones that are marked as resolved but use natural language processing to find ones marked resolved as the result of unpopular decisions?
18:13	technomancy	Raynes: I'm fine with changing it back now, but it was the right thing to do at the time
18:13	hadronzoo	tomoj: sorry, I meant ftree.cljs in the wagjo/data.cljs repo
18:13	Raynes	I've already booked a flight to Washington, man.
18:13	Raynes	We've gotta settle this like men.
18:14	callen	technomancy: the votes are for Seattle over Austin, among the people I've talked to that have lived in either place. Haven't consulted with somebody that's lived in both yet though.
18:14	tomoj	hadronzoo: ah, feel free to report back with your experience with it :)
18:14	technomancy	callen: are you still shooting for somewhere fairly remote?
18:14	cbp`	callen: what's the next step
18:14	Raynes	callen: What is this refheap you're talking about?
18:15	technomancy	Raynes: you can enjoy some of my home-roasted coffee!
18:15	callen	technomancy: if I move to seattle, that's more of a second step, I'll live close to the city initially so that I can take advantage of it and experience it, but when I'm ready to get a house - move further out.
18:15	jabb	well, not the "hell out of me" :P
18:15	callen	Raynes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14700
18:15	Raynes	I will drink it with one hand and strike you repeatedly with the other.
18:15	callen	cbp`: I need to stop being lazy, clean it up and make it thread-safe, then start adding inserts and basic queries.
18:16	technomancy	callen: yeah, you want to get a feel for the lay of the land
18:16	callen	technomancy: precisely. That's less relevant in Austin.
18:16	tomoj	callen: have you talked to an equal number of austin and seattle people?
18:16	callen	tomoj: roughly, but even the Austin people were voting seattle
18:16	callen	save for a few.
18:17	tomoj	yeah after I wrote that I realized you're not an idiot so..
18:17	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
18:17	tomoj	I vote austin, because I might be there again someday, and we need more clojure people there :)
18:17	callen	tomoj: that's the nicest thing anybody's said to me in awhile, thank you.
18:18	technomancy	taking the kids to radio shack for robot parts =D
18:18	callen	technomancy: niiiice. you must be so proud.
18:18	technomancy	it's tons of fun
18:18	callen	technomancy: my dad and I used to make runs to radio shack for his custom built amplifier, which he let me help out on.
18:18	callen	technomancy: he still uses that amp, 20 years later.
18:18	technomancy	radio shack is kind of the starbucks of electronics hackers, but it's what's nearby
18:18	technomancy	heh; sweet
18:18	callen	tomoj: Austin wins out in some specific categories. Namely, my desire to eventually have a small ranch with goats :P
18:18	jabb	also, is it totally unorthodox to write a game in clojure?
18:19	callen	technomancy: whatever works.
18:19	technomancy	they are starting to stock arduino parts there though, which is encouraging.
18:19	callen	jabb: We see plenty of people doing it in here, and it can be done, but it's clearly a labor of love.
18:19	callen	jabb: you make some serious sacrifices doing a game on the JVM.
18:19	callen	it sets some hard limits on what you can do.
18:19	jabb	I wouldn't assume the JVM to be the problem.
18:20	jabb	At least if I ever plan to port to mobile
18:20	callen	jabb: it is if you want to chase higher graphics or have an easier time making it responsive.
18:20	callen	jabb: most serious mobile game engines are C++ for iOS and Android
18:20	callen	with only some trimming to integrate it into their respective environments.
18:21	jabb	My previous games have been just that. :)
18:21	jabb	And lua
18:24	callen	jabb: right well I'm not trying to discourage you, just being realistic.
18:24	tomoj	jabb: how do you plan to port to iOS?
18:27	jabb	tomoj, no plan for that yet :P
18:27	jabb	besides, don't even have the money for the license
18:28	jabb	callen: so for C/C++ what have people been using as far as libraries? just basic GLES?
18:30	hadronzoo	tomoj: I wonder if the clojure-scheme compiler would work for iOS development. Games written in Gambit Scheme will run on iOS.
18:31	Raynes	callen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14747 untested changes.
18:32	tomoj	hadronzoo: very interesting
18:32	tomoj	the scheme in the middle seems likely to cause hassle (for one I don't know scheme) but it's probably less hassle than writing clojure-objc or whatever
18:33	hadronzoo	tomoj: Gambit is fairly fast. See: http://jlongster.com/s/jlongster-old/pages/blog/write-apps-iphone-scheme.html
18:34	tomoj	hmm https://github.com/schani/clojurec/tree/master/run/ios
18:35	tomoj	oh sweet gambit has continuations
18:35	tomoj	sold
18:36	hadronzoo	tomoj: Gambit is great. I used it and Chicken before I moved to Clojure. Take a look at the benchmarks (FWIW): https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme
18:38	hadronzoo	Interactive iOS dev with Gambit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7c0rU9Lv28
18:40	mefesto	I have my tests in ["test/clj"] which breaks C-c C-t in clojure-mode. Is there a way to configure clojure-mode for this?
18:41	mefesto	C-c C-t => clojure-jump-between-tests-and-code
18:44	mefesto	n/m doesn't look that way. i can live w/out it.
18:44	callen	Raynes: seems solid
18:44	Raynes	callen: I did all of that but the diff in refheap btw. I forked then edited. :D
18:44	Raynes	When I add diffing I'm never gonna need an editor again.
18:45	callen	lol
18:47	mefesto	Raynes: just curious but why can't private pastes on refheap be forked?
18:48	Raynes	mefesto: They can't?
18:48	mefesto	lemme double check :-\
18:48	Raynes	mefesto: Create a private paste and link me to it.
18:48	Glenjamin	mefesto: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L1046
18:49	mefesto	Raynes: n/m im an idiot :)
18:50	mefesto	i could have sworn the other day a coworker sent me one (anonymous + private) and i couldn't fork it. perhaps it was just too late in the day and i could no longer read
18:50	Raynes	Perhaps anonymous + private = unforkable.
18:50	Raynes	I have been known to have bugs.
18:51	mefesto	Ahh i know what happened
18:51	mefesto	i was logged out at the time. i viewed the paste. i logged in but did not refresh the page. therefore the fork link never showed.
18:51	mefesto	a simple refresh shows the `fork` link.
18:51	Raynes	Aha.
18:52	Raynes	Yeah. It'd be nice if it would update the page properly, but blech.
18:58	brainproxy	win +1
18:58	brainproxy	derp
19:17	Glenjamin	can clojure library names be capitalised? I've only ever seen them lowercase, but not sure if that's convention or enforced
19:23	amalloy	convention
19:25	callen	Glenjamin: you could just try it to see if it works, but I for one rather like the convention, it's clean looking.
19:25	Glenjamin	I'm writing a library that provides gadget for spies
19:25	Glenjamin	which I'm calling q
19:25	Glenjamin	or Q
19:25	Glenjamin	not sure which yet - i like the lowercase convention too =/
19:38	callen	Glenjamin: gadgets...for spies?
19:38	Glenjamin	as in test spies
19:38	Glenjamin	gadgets is a bit of a stretch, they're just functions/macros - but naming isn't my strong point
20:11	callen	cbp`: I'm writing some simple coercion stuff
20:11	cbp`	ok
20:11	callen	cbp`: I'm doing some insanely retarded type dispatch bullshit with cond
20:11	callen	because I'm an idiot and don't use multimethods.
20:12	cbp`	haha
20:14	callen	welp. it works. sorta.
20:15	callen	I need to work on something that could actually make me money now though.
20:17	cbp`	aw ok
20:17	callen	cbp`: let me show you what I did
20:18	callen	cbp`: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14751
20:18	callen	I like the way I divvied things up, but the dispatch is dumb-dumb-dumb.
20:27	callen	cbp`: hey
20:27	callen	cbp`: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14751
20:27	callen	cbp`: thoughts?
20:27	callen	cbp`: the dispatch is super-dumb, but I like the separation.
20:28	cbp`	Yea
20:28	cbp`	Just need to add an option for :success-atom i guess
20:29	callen	why?
20:29	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
20:29	callen	cbp`: I rip out the response by default, no need to acknowledge the top-level success-atom.
20:29	cbp`	ok
20:29	cbp`	oh i just saw the last function
20:29	cbp`	I haven't used rethinkdb before so I guess I'll read the docs :P
20:30	callen	cbp`: you probably know more than me. shrug
20:32	callen	yogthos: gleetings.
20:32	callen	cbp`: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14752 this is the whole file with Raynes' improvements.
20:34	callen	cbp`: I'm not sure binding the socket inside of a function is going to work for a library though. Probably going to need a global wrapped in something threadsafe.
20:34	cbp`	ok
20:36	callen	even with macros, I don't think I would make function life-span sockets work because it'd still mean taking it up and down over and over.
20:36	callen	Raynes: so RethinkDB 1.5 came out
20:36	callen	Raynes: I about shat myself when I saw the data file migration instructions.
20:38	tomoj	don't use a global :(
20:38	callen	tomoj: I'm open to alternative suggestions, but I'm not going to chase a religious ideal. It just needs to work.
20:38	callen	If it means more LOC and/or more hassle, I'm probably not going to bother.
20:39	Raynes	callen: Well using a global likely breaks it to shit in lots of cases.
20:39	Raynes	If you reload that, the atom is reset.
20:40	tomoj	(deftype Conn [in out]) (defn get-database-list [conn]) ?
20:40	callen	Raynes: I can just spit it out and let the caller hold onto the var then.
20:40	callen	and let it be their problem.
20:41	callen	tomoj: seems fine to me.
20:41	callen	that's how i was writing it before.
20:41	callen	I need to rewrite what cbp did to bring the API back to that.
20:41	tomoj	cool, I thought you meant you were going to go the way of java.jdbc :)
20:41	callen	no
20:41	callen	I figured you were going to suggest something loony.
20:41	callen	Looks like we were closer in mind than either of us expected.
20:41	Raynes	callen: Whatever. I'm going to eat a 50s themed cafe. Your argument is invalid.
20:42	callen	Raynes: the whole cafe?
20:42	tomoj	it's weird cus I feel like I'd want encapsulation on the Conn
20:42	Raynes	at a, even
20:42	tomoj	hence not defrecord
20:42	callen	Raynes: but seriously, the migration instructions for 1.4->1.5 are horrific.
20:42	tomoj	but "encapsulation" is a bad word :)
20:42	Raynes	at an, even
20:43	callen	Raynes: I integrated your recommended changes as well. Thanks for that.
20:43	Raynes	They actually worked? Cool.
20:43	tomoj	datomic's conns appear to be deftypes that implement ILookup though, so they don't print out all their guts
20:43	callen	Raynes: worked perfectly the first time. I didn't have to correct anything.
20:44	Raynes	My goodness I am underpaid.
20:44	callen	tomoj: seems reasonable. I figured I was going to have a deftype with in/out streams of the original socket.
20:44	callen	I am not too sure what the lifecycle on the socket will be, I guess I'll have to retain a reference to it.
20:44	tomoj	ah yeah
20:45	callen	I could do request life-cycle db connections in the context of web apps. Should'ish work fine.
20:45	callen	I actually need to stop fiddling with this library and work on something more valuable though.
20:45	tomoj	`r.table('users').filter(lambda doc: doc['age'] > 29).run()`
20:45	tomoj	that's.. interesting
20:46	callen	I haven't decided how to translate lambdas yet.
20:46	tomoj	oh, that's the same as datomic's filter though, guess I can't complain
20:46	callen	I might boil it down to dumb filter predicates
20:46	callen	since they're single-expression objects
20:46	callen	I don't really mind the API, it's fine.
20:47	callen	I'm still cranky about the length prefixes.
20:47	Raynes	callen: I was really excited about using dotimes.
20:47	callen	luckily cbp` decided to hero all the way through that nonsense.
20:47	Raynes	I don't think I've had a single valid use for that since I started writing Clojure.
20:47	callen	hahahaha
20:47	Raynes	And you just throw that shit in my face like HERE, DOTIMES.
20:48	callen	Raynes: byte arrays will do that for you.
21:00	callen	hrrrm. magical DB auto-selection. dafuq.
21:19	gfredericks	huh; an interesting alternative to checkouts is just opening the file from the other project and evaling it with nrepl.el
21:20	callen	gfredericks: checkouts?
21:20	gfredericks	an old lein feature for hacking on dependencies
21:20	xeqi	gfredericks: I do that when I want to quickly debug someone else's lib
21:21	gfredericks	I'm way behind on tooling; perpetually.
21:24	ianeslick	Anyone want to help me hack up a proper inspect for nrepl.el?
21:24	ianeslick	s/inspect/inspector
21:24	ianeslick	I've got a fairly good idea and some tooling; helps to have some dialog to flesh out ideas
21:24	ianeslick	Basing it on technomancy's javert
21:33	gfredericks	huh; the clojure inheritance thing does multiple inheritance doesn't it
21:39	callen	gfredericks: derive has multiple parents, but precedence is an open question.
21:39	callen	gfredericks: you have to do prefer-method manually, which could get laborious.
21:39	gfredericks	it all good for my purposes
21:39	callen	just saying.
21:40	callen	some people need to be able to specify "this over that"
21:40	callen	I try to avoid writing code that relies on that.
21:40	callen	Python used a left-to-right going-upwards tree sweep in the method resolution order
21:41	callen	sounds complicated but was fairly easy for me anyway to retain in my head.
21:41	gfredericks	this is the first time I've tried the hierarchy functionality
21:41	gfredericks	just never need it
21:42	technomancy	ianeslick: if you're interested in javert you can take the whole thing over
21:42	technomancy	I don't have the bandwidth to function as a proper maintainer
21:42	ianeslick	technomancy: Sure, I can do that.
23:08	ianeslick	technomancy: Can we just redirect to a new project nrepl-inspector? Easier for folks to find.
23:08	ianeslick	I can set it up if you want to put in the forwarding Link on Javert
23:11	robink	Are nested fors a bad idea?
23:21	amalloy	robink: not at all
23:21	amalloy	although often you don't actually want that, but instead a single for with multiple bindings
23:40	robink	amalloy: Gotcha. I'd have to have a binding that depended on another, but it might be possible.
23:41	robink	am alloy: I'm trying to turn Hiccup-style nested vectors into a hashmap.
23:42	robink	Sorry about the nick munge, my phone's autocorrect is rather aggressive.
23:43	amalloy	robink: a hash looking like what? you might be able to just use clojure.data.xml
23:45	robink	amalloy: A hash looking like the first element of each nested subvec with the following data in a single collection bound to the value of that key (optionally turned from string to into or DateTime/utime).
23:47	robink	amalloy: Input would be [:PARSETREE [:FROB [:DIGITS "123"] [:DIGITS "456"]]]
23:47	robink	amalloy: Output would be {:FROB [123 456]}
23:48	robink	am alloy: I'm mostly there, but I do have the nested for.
23:49	robink	Agg, sorry about the nick autocorrect.
23:51	robink	Lemme switch to laptop
23:52	amalloy	looks like a nested for to me
23:52	robink	amalloy: 'k
23:54	robink	amalloy: A more accurate input sample would be [:PARSETREE [:FOO [:DIGITS "123"] [:DIGITS "456"]] [:BAR [:DIGITS "789"] [:SPECIALSTRING "Meaningful"]] [:BAZ [:DIGITS "012"] [:SUBRULE [:CHEAPTOKEN "B"] [:ANOTHERSTRING "Rememberme"]]]]
23:54	robink	amalloy: Thankfully my real-world example has a fixed level of nesting