#clojure – 2013-05-20

2013-05-20

00:27	callen	cbp`: I didn't want to feel like I was taking advantage of your volunteerism.
00:27	callen	cbp`: There's always more to be done with the rethink stuff, want me to put up a github repo and add you to it?
00:39	ambrosebs	dnolen: playing around with type checking core.match. The backtracking makes it tricky/impossible(?) to remember what propositions are not true from match rows above the current one.
00:39	ambrosebs	We can probably deal with positive info just fine. Things like (fn [a :- (U Symbol Keyword)] (if (symbol? a) ... ...)) might be less accurate in the "else" branch.
00:40	ambrosebs	(the match equivalent of that, rather)
00:57	ysawej	hello, how can I get the .class object of a class (.class Classname) doesnt work
00:58	cbp`	callen: The repo sounds good, add cesarbp. Also don't worry I have way more free time than I need right now :P
00:59	brehaut	ysawej: Classname
00:59	brehaut	,java.lang.String
00:59	clojurebot	java.lang.String
00:59	brehaut	,(class java.lang.String)
00:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
00:59	ysawej	oh.. actually I wanted this (class Classname)
01:00	brehaut	if you want Class
01:00	brehaut	,java.lang.Class
01:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
01:01	callen	cbp`: I'm sort of the opposite.
01:01	brehaut	callign class on a classname will return the class ofa class object (which is Class), not the class object itself
01:07	ysawej	ok.. so thats what I wanted.. so it will return java.lang.Class which will have className set to the class I want right?
01:07	brehaut	no, java.lang.Class is the class of all classes
01:08	brehaut	not a particular class of a given instance
01:51	dhl	When running tasks in leiningen 2, is there anyway to disable the :dev profile other than defining a :default profile that excludes :dev?
03:07	tomoj	dhl: see `lein help with-profile`
03:07	tomoj	tldr: lein with-profile -dev
04:15	michaelr525	hello
04:15	michaelr525	thinking of porting an existing compojure website to pedestal
04:16	michaelr525	do you think it would be a good idea?
04:16	michaelr525	anywhere to find the pedestal presentation video from clojure/west?
04:18	ucb	michaelr525: any reason why you'd want to port it?
04:22	Raynes	If the answer is "CUZ PEDESTAL IS COOL AND NEW AND WEEEEE" or you have, as per the XKCD comic, sampled everything in the medicine cabinet, then probably not.
04:22	ucb	heh
04:32	michaelr525	well, it seems interesting and i like to learn new things by using them in a real project
04:33	michaelr525	i want to add new features to my web app and i experimented a bit already with clojurescript, enfocus, shoreleave and i like it. so it looks like pedestal could be the next step in that direction
04:34	michaelr525	Raynes: what do you think about pedestal?
04:36	dhl	tomoj: That's pretty awesome. Thanks!
04:40	michaelr525	ucb: or you?
04:41	ucb	michaelr525: I have no opinion on pedestal; I was just wondering about your motivation :)
04:42	michaelr525	yeah. to sum it up, I want to move most of the app into clojurescript and i'm looking for a solid clojurescript architecture
04:43	ucb	michaelr525: do you need an architecture at all? could you do with just plain cljs?
04:44	michaelr525	i could but it can get verbose low level and inflexible
04:45	ucb	hum
04:45	michaelr525	in contrast to using something like shoreleave and building the app around pub sub
04:45	ucb	I'd probably challenge the "inflexible" assertion, but ok.
04:46	michaelr525	maybe not the best word to describe what i actually wanted to say
04:46	ucb	well, I wasn't saying "write it all in cljs with nothing in between" or anything, I was just wondering whether you think/know pedestal would buy you anything on top of plain cljs?
04:47	ucb	always keep in mind I know nothing about pedestal :)
04:47	michaelr525	i don't know.. but i'm intrigued by it since I don't currently understand what they created there
04:48	michaelr525	although from the stuff I read about it, it might be just what I want
04:48	ucb	then I'd say just go ahead and do it
04:49	ucb	at the very least you'll find out if it was a good choice or not
04:49	abp	Well, the app-part of pedestal is about making changes to your app data tree based on messages and tree changes getting rendered into the dom.
04:50	michaelr525	the docs are a bit challenging so i thought maybe it could be a good idea the watch the presentation
04:51	tomoj	the docs for pedestal are challenging?
04:51	tomoj	I'm looking for shoreleave pubsub docs
04:51	abp	Not complete
04:51	tomoj	found this.. http://shoreleave.github.io/shoreleave-pubsub/
04:51	tomoj	oh
04:52	tomoj	I thought "This is a work in progress and should not be used AT ALL" was talking about shoreleave-pubsub
04:52	tomoj	they meant "stop reading this marg" huh :)
04:53	michaelr525	another xkcd reference? :)
04:54	tomoj	where?
04:54	clojurebot	where is forget where
04:54	tomoj	:D
04:54	tomoj	clojurebot: where is forget where is forget where
04:54	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
04:55	tomoj	clojurebot: forget where is forget where is forget where
04:55	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
04:55	tomoj	You don't have to tell me twice.
04:57	xificurC	anyone running emacs+nrepl on windows? I got leiningen up and running (e.g. I can do "lein repl" and a repl pops up) but when I try nrepl-jack-in in emacs I get a 'lein' is not recognized as an internal or external command. I have lein in c:\lein\ and I have it in my path
04:59	tomoj	is this a good example of pubsub? http://www.myclojureadventure.com/2012/09/intro-to-clojurescript-part-3-using.html
04:59	xificurC	oh wait, lein repl only worked in git bash, it doesnt work in the good old cmd
05:00	ucb	xificurC: keep in mind that your actual PATH and emacs' PATH sometimes differ; at least in OS X I had to tweak it so that it'd find lein for me
05:00	tomoj	"guess I can just look at the goddamn tests"
05:00	tomoj	"goddamn!"
05:00	xificurC	maybe windows has issues with files with no .something at the end?
05:01	xificurC	I used the lein script in bash since that seemed to be the easiest option
05:01	jjs	xificurC: on linux, I had to do the following: (setenv "PATH" (concat "/directory/where/lein/is:" (getenv "PATH")) (setq exec-path (append '("/directory/where/lein/is") exec-path))
05:01	jjs	Probably something analogous will work on your WIndows setup.
05:02	xificurC	jjs ill try that thanks
05:02	jjs	:)
05:03	xificurC	I tried to download the windows batch file and put it in the path
05:03	xificurC	got another error instead :D
05:03	jjs	yay, a different error! Progress! >;D
05:05	tomoj	shoreleave-pubsub is unintelligible to me
05:06	xificurC	jjs: didnt work :(
05:06	xificurC	I'll try the windows way of installing
05:08	tomoj	"completely decouple parts of your app and declaratively bind them together"
05:08	tomoj	where are the declarations?
05:12	tomoj	I guess if you do all the subscription operations once in the top-level, it's just declarations disguised as operations
05:13	xificurC	so now i have a starting nREPL server... showing forever. Even worse, before there was at least an error showing
05:13	tomoj	and in the non-top-level case, pedestal has operations disguised as declarations :(
05:19	rodnaph	advice needed: i want to parse an integer in a library that is clj/cljs compatible (so (Integer/parseInt) is not available). any suggestions of how to work around this?
05:24	tomoj	I think if nrepl.el had C-u M- pop to another window I would switch immediately
05:24	tomoj	er, C-u M-,
05:24	tomoj	C-x o is like my least favorite thing
05:36	rodnaph	can anyone suggest how to support parseInt for clj AND cljs?
05:44	jjs	rodnaph: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1133770/how-do-i-convert-a-string-into-an-integer-in-javascript
05:45	rodnaph	jjs: thanks, but i'm ok with the parsing. but in clojure i'd use (Integer/parseInt), and clojurescript it'd be (js/parseInt) - so trying to get some code that supports both.
05:51	rodnaph	at the moment i'm going with require an include of "window.Integer = {parseInt: parseInt}" for compat.
05:53	jjs	rodnaph: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/doc/CROSSOVERS.md
05:55	rodnaph	maybe ;CLJSBUILD-REMOVE; could be bent to this purpose...
05:57	borkdude	I was experimenting a bit with reducers, and I wonder why this doesn't show a significant speedup: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14782
05:58	rodnaph	;CLJSBUILD-REMOVE;"(js* "window.Integer = {parseInt: parseInt};")
05:58	rodnaph	oh!
05:58	jjs	rodnaph: No! Keep the code shared between languages in e.g. common/ , and keep a parsey_fun.clj in src/clj and parsey_fun.cljs in src/cljs ... then code in common can just require parsey-fun
06:03	rodnaph	hmm... that requires extra includes... for one fn it might be less magic to do it the dark magic way...
06:03	rodnaph	but i shall have a tinker - thanks for the advice jjs!
06:04	jjs	:)
08:57	xificurC	I have leiningen working through Git Bash on Windows. I can run "lein repl" from it and then connect to nrepl in Emacs by M-x nrepl. However when I try to open a .clj file in emacs and use nrepl-jack-in I get an error saying 'lein' is not recognized as an internal or external command. I understand this could be an issue with the script since it has no extension and windows has no idea what to do with it (hence it doenst recogniz
08:57	xificurC	e it as an executable). Is there any workaround to this? And more importantly - is this needed? Do I have the same power in my hands if I just fire up nrepl from bash and then connect emacs to it through M-x nrepl?
08:58	Foxboron	xificurC: that is because i think Emacs is using cmd when it executes the eval command.
08:58	Foxboron	had the same problem, i didn't find a solution.
08:59	llasram	xificurC: You've got it. AFAIK, nrepl-jack-in just saves you the step of launching and managing the REPL process yourself
08:59	xificurC	Foxboron: thought so. And you can't change that? :(
08:59	Foxboron	xificurC: well, you could add lein to the PATH variable?
08:59	Foxboron	I am not sure how lein behaves in CMD.
08:59	tomoj	&`(~@[])
08:59	lazybot	⇒ nil
09:00	xificurC	llasram: thanks, the less steps the better but if I wont find a solution at least it works
09:00	tomoj	is that nil in swearjure? :)
09:00	xificurC	Foxboron: I have it in my path but windows doesnt recognize a file like lein an executable
09:00	xificurC	Foxboron: cmd wont run it either because windows only runs certain files as executables, e.g. .exe, .bat and so on
09:01	llasram	xificurC: You could set the command to `bash.xet lein` or whatnot
09:01	llasram	Er, s/xet/exe/
09:01	IamDrowsy	but there is an lein.bat file on github for windows users
09:01	Foxboron	IamDrowsy: when i was on windows it was broken, have it been fixed?
09:02	xificurC	IamDrowsy: that produced another error
09:02	IamDrowsy	last time i was on windows it worked for me
09:02	tomoj	&#_()
09:02	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
09:02	Foxboron	lein2 or lein1?
09:02	IamDrowsy	2
09:04	llasram	tomoj: Practicing your Swearjure?
09:06	dnolen`	CLJS ObjMap deprecated http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/08489f39060be1097fa23abc8d5042c86e68dd4d
09:06	IamDrowsy	mh... i never had problems with it... but i did not try the most recent version... maybe technomancy knows something about it...
09:10	xificurC	IamDrowsy: installing leiningen usually worked on windows for me but getting emacs to work was usually a pain
09:11	IamDrowsy	xificurC: ok. i never tried this...
09:12	xificurC	IamDrowsy: thanks anyway :)
09:13	xificurC	llasram: where do you mean to set the command `bash.exe lein`
09:14	llasram	xificurC: You can customize `nrepl-server-command` and `nrepl-lein-command`
09:15	xificurC	llasram: sounds interesting yet frightening for a beginner like me
09:21	llasram	?
09:21	CookedGr1phon	Does anyone know a good reason why clj-time doesn't extend the DateTimeProtocol for a java.util.Date? I do it in my own projects for interop with other things that give me a Date (like #inst) and it seems to all work just fine using clj-time.coerce/from-date, but if that works so well, why isn't it in the core clj-time?
09:21	llasram	xificurC: Oh, "customize"-able variables in Emacs are the ones which exposed to be easily-modified
09:22	llasram	xificurC: Try M-x customize-group nrepl-mode
09:23	xificurC	llasram: i see
09:26	xificurC	llasram: so i should try to switch "lein" to "bash.exe lein" and "lein repl :headless" to "bash.exe lein repl :headless"?
09:29	xificurC	llasram: tried it, didnt work and now M-x customize group doesnt recognize nrepl-mode :)
09:30	xificurC	llasram: nevermind the customization still works
09:31	xificurC	nrepl-jack-in doesnt throw an error but doesnt open an nrepl session either
09:42	inaciano	hi, i am trying to start a clojure project in my work and i need resources with "clojure success stories"
09:43	rasputnik	hi all - need to print a line of output for each thing in a seq. i tried (map #(format "whatever %s" %) the-seq) and get a load of nils in there too...
09:58	Pupnik-	try wrapping that in a dorun
11:01	noncom	hi i have a question: how do i force (map) to return a vector? seems like it always returns a list?
11:01	jjttjj	use mapv
11:01	jjttjj	,(mapv inc '(1 2 3))
11:01	clojurebot	[2 3 4]
11:01	noncom	thanks! another question: what is the cost of (into) calls?
11:01	noncom	like (into [] `some-list)
11:03	noncom	and why is the default (map) implementation returns a list, while vectors are more common in clojure to work with data? why have special (mapv) for that?
11:03	llasram	noncom: Compared to what? `into` uses transients when possible, so it's about as efficient as you can get and still return a persistent data structure in the end
11:03	llasram	noncom: `map` doesn't return a list. It returns a lazy sequence, which answers both your questions at once :-)
11:04	noncom	llasram: actually i meant - does the cost depend on length of the sequence or is there some magical switch which simply switches the collection type in an instant?
11:05	justin_smith	noncom: I think that since map does not return a list but a lazy sequence, (partial into []) simply constructs a vector instead of the list that some other consumer would, no extra cost beyond any overhead a vector has above a list
11:05	gfredericks	noncom: it's certainly going to be at least linear in the size of the second argument
11:05	llasram	noncom: O(n), yeah
11:06	justin_smith	and of course O(n)
11:06	noncom	so basically no speed difference between (mapv) and (into [] (map)) ? just the first one more idiomatic?
11:07	justin_smith	you could use (time) to test it
11:07	Anderkent	no difference other than clarity
11:07	Anderkent	in fact
11:07	Anderkent	,(source mapv)
11:07	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
11:07	Anderkent	bah
11:07	noncom	heh :D
11:07	gfredericks	mapv also lets you e.g. pass multiple collecctions
11:08	gfredericks	oh nm
11:08	Anderkent	mapv might be cheaper for the common case of passing 1 collection into map
11:08	justin_smith	heh, yeah, map lets you do that too
11:09	noncom	nice! thanks for the answers!
11:09	Anderkent	but it will be only very slightly cheaper
11:10	noncom	i'm struggling for as much fps as i can get, so any slightest speed improvement is welcomed in my code!
11:10	justin_smith	rt on the jvm, the endless struggle
11:10	Anderkent	is that on your critical path?
11:12	noncom	most of my program is the critical to speed, since most of it is related to real-time rendering. and saving like 3-4 fps here and there could amount to like 50 fps saved! which then can be spent on useful user-data visualisations
11:14	Anderkent	you probably want to plug your code into something like yourkit and look for hotspots - it tends to work okay with clojure unless you do a lot of dynamic code generation
11:15	justin_smith	what is the difference between the paid and unpaid yourkit versions?
11:16	noncom	yeah, i could use a profiler. i think i will have to when i get to anywhere a serious application
11:17	Anderkent	noncom: then you don't want to be optimizing yet :)
11:17	Anderkent	justin_smith: I thought there was just a evaluation version that was free, other ones are paid arent they?
11:18	justin_smith	yeah, I am just wondering if there are feature differences or nag screens or what
11:18	justin_smith	before I download and try
11:18	Anderkent	don't think there are nag screens, but the evaluation is only for 15 days afaik
11:18	justin_smith	(official site is not readily showing me differences)
11:18	justin_smith	Anderkent: cool, thanks, maybe I can convince my boss to buy it for us
11:19	Anderkent	strongly recommend, esp. since the new version made it much faster (i.e. less footprint)
11:20	noncom	Anderkent: yeah, probably :D i know that principle. I think that now such optimisations go hand-in-hand with learning clojure since me a noob, so i kinda enjoy that :D
11:20	Anderkent	is there some idiom for (map vector (cons prefix coll) coll) ? I.e. grouping elements with predecessors
11:20	Anderkent	noncom: sure. Optimize for readability then :)
11:23	justin_smith	I would add the caveat that you generally build things to do as little as possible in a rendering thread (and implicit in this is rendering should be in its own thread where it can have its own CPU ideally on a multi-CPU machine) - there is a difference between premature optimization and best rt design practices
11:23	justin_smith	*that you should generally build
11:23	ToBeReplaced	how do you define a macro that does a defn with all of the possible meta hooks (like doc)? is there a special wrapper somewhere?
11:24	ToBeReplaced	Anderkent: partition sounds like that
11:24	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: unless I am misunderstanding you defn will store the string after the function name as the doc
11:24	justin_smith	regarding partition, it does not do that at all
11:25	ToBeReplaced	partition does what Anderkent asked for, doesn't it?
11:26	justin_smith	he wants [:a :b :c] -> [[:a :b] [:b :c]]
11:26	noncom	justin_smith: yeah! i think so, but i rely on the architecture used by the underlying engine
11:27	justin_smith	noncom: cool, yeah, just make sure the code that gets spawned on each frame render avoids creating garbage, printing, io in general, etc. and that will get you far
11:27	ToBeReplaced	,(let [coll [:a :b :c]] (partition 2 1 (cons :prefix coll)))
11:27	clojurebot	((:prefix :a) (:a :b) (:b :c))
11:28	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: my bad! I forgot about that feature of partition
11:28	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: i am trying to do (defmacro defmine [name args & body] `(defn ....))
11:29	justin_smith	well you could modify the metadata after the defn, or have the macro expand to provide it the way defn normally would, right?
11:29	ToBeReplaced	in order to support docstrings, i need to special case... and I don't know what would happen with metadata... i figure this is a common issue, so i'm wondering what is normally done
11:30	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: yeah... should prob just read/copy defn source... just feels bad from a maintainability standpoint (like, what if additional options get added to defn)
11:30	Anderkent	ToBeReplaced: thanks
11:31	ToBeReplaced	easiest way i know to do it right now is `(defn ~(with-meta ...) ~@body)
11:31	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: in a bigger picture, what does defmine add to defn?
11:34	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: it accepts ring request and passes values from it to the inner function -> i would ordinarily do this as a simple function wrapper, except preserving the function name is helpful to work with pedestal routing
11:35	justin_smith	ahh, ok, yeah
11:35	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: actually though, i'm thinking about it wrong... this is the wrong way to handle the issue, so thanks
11:35	ToBeReplaced	correct answer is, again, don't use macros
11:35	justin_smith	I only discovered recently how much easier my code was to debug when I provided names to every inline (fn) call
11:35	justin_smith	(fn what-this-fn-does [...] ...)
11:36	justin_smith	my first real reason to stop using #()
11:36	ToBeReplaced	true
11:36	justin_smith	makes stack traces so much easier to navigate
11:38	justin_smith	I was doing a seesaw canvas project for fun over the weekend (weird music composition interaction system) and I was reminded again how much I miss currying
11:38	Anderkent	pff, real clojure coders find anonymous functions by counter comparisons on autogenerated names
11:38	Anderkent	user$eval6369$fn__6370 - easy!
11:38	justin_smith	so many of my uses of fn were really just replacements for implicit currying
11:39	justin_smith	Anderkent: lol
11:40	Anderkent	next thing you'll say is you dont like getting 100 lines of stack trace out of which 3 are your code
11:40	Anderkent	;>
11:41	justin_smith	Anderkent: is there actually a fix for that issue?
11:42	gfredericks	$google github currj
11:42	lazybot	[fredericksgary/currj · GitHub] https://github.com/fredericksgary/currj
11:42	gfredericks	justin_smith: ^
11:43	Anderkent	justin_smith: what issue? It's a feature. ;P Seriously though, there are some attempts - stuff like coloring the stacktrace based if it's clojure.core / java stdlib / well known framework / your packages
11:43	justin_smith	gfredericks: it mentions being experimental - has anyone successfully used it in anger?
11:43	Anderkent	it don't think it can be fixed per se
11:45	justin_smith	Anderkent: even the coloring would be nice - is that what nrepl is trying to do with its rainbow stacktraces in emacs?
11:45	gfredericks	justin_smith: not that I know of -- but at worst you can examine the macroexpansion to verify it does what it's supposed to
11:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: true enough, thanks
11:46	Anderkent	$google github clj-stacktrace
11:46	lazybot	[mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace · GitHub] https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace
11:46	gfredericks	justin_smith: also note it does the pre-computation, which could conceivably be undesirable. I think it'd be interesting to patch it to do that lazily.
11:46	Anderkent	hm maybe that wasn't the colour one
11:47	justin_smith	yeah, I would have to re-evaluate some argument ordering in that case
11:49	Anderkent	ah, it is
11:49	Anderkent	justin_smith: so see clj-stacktrace for the coloured and formatted stacks
11:50	justin_smith	Anderkent: cool, we use clj-stacktrace for our big project here, but I did not know about the color feature
11:50	Anderkent	yeah I'm not sure how it's triggered
11:50	Anderkent	I guess repl only?
11:50	tomoj	`lein sub install` excellent
11:52	justin_smith	Anderkent: a version that did html color markup for a dev 500 page would be awesome, but likely would require a fork
11:52	justin_smith	we are working on a hyperlink that leads to ritz attached to the errored thread, so why not decorate the information while we are at it
12:09	asteve	is there way to flatten a vector so that ["a" "b" "c"] becomes "a" "b" "c"?
12:09	asteve	(flatten ["a" "b" "c"]) creates ("a" "b" "c")
12:09	Anderkent	,(apply list ["a" "b" "c"])
12:09	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c")
12:09	justin_smith	asteve: is this for printing?
12:10	gtrak	asteve: you can only return single values from a form
12:10	justin_smith	(clojure.string/join \space [
12:10	justin_smith	"a" "b" "c"])
12:10	asteve	justin_smith: no
12:10	justin_smith	yeah, you cannot return multiple values
12:11	gtrak	asteve: likely you want concat
12:11	mefisto	taking a step back, what are you trying to do asteve?
12:11	Anderkent	I guess it's [["a" "b" "c"]] => ["a" "b" "c"]
12:11	asteve	really what I have is ["a" "b" "c" ["d" "e" "j"]]
12:12	gtrak	and what do you want?
12:12	asteve	["a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "j"]
12:12	mefisto	flatten will do that
12:12	Anderkent	,(flatten ["a" "b" ["c" "d"]])
12:12	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c" "d")
12:12	Anderkent	,(flattenv ["a" "b" ["c" "d"]])
12:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: flattenv in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:13	asteve	,(vec (flatten ["a" "b" ["c" "d"]]))
12:13	clojurebot	["a" "b" "c" "d"]
12:13	asteve	interesting
12:13	xeqi	~flatten
12:13	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
12:13	Anderkent	just be careful because i'ts fully recursive
12:13	Anderkent	yeah exactly
12:13	gtrak	(inc clojurebot)
12:13	lazybot	⇒ 26
12:16	justin_smith	yeah to me flatten is a code smell that makes me think I need to re-evaluate the algorithm I am using
12:36	gtrak	,(mapcat #(if (coll? %) % [%]) ["a" "b" ["c" "d"]]) ;; I write this 'collify' function a lot, is there a shorter way to do it?
12:36	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c" "d")
12:37	gtrak	I'm not the only one: https://github.com/jwhitlark/clojail/blob/master/src/clojail/core.clj#L42
12:38	TimMc	I am innately suspicious of (if (coll? %) % [%]) and related code.
12:38	TimMc	It's shaped the same as flatten.
12:38	justin_smith	the real issue is in the functions building that vector - why is their output inconsistent?
12:39	gtrak	was trying to do the previous example with concat, couldn't figure out a way
12:39	gtrak	except of course mapcat is concat map
12:50	gfredericks	why would (deref (future thing) 1000 :time) ever hang in nrepl?
12:50	gfredericks	assuming thing diverges
12:51	gfredericks	which I only assume because running `thing` itself also hangs
12:54	gfredericks	nevermind nrepl was misleadingly hiding prints
12:55	yogthos	dnolen: ping
13:08	dnolen	yogthos: pong
13:09	yogthos	dnolen: howdy :) have a cljs question, I think it's something stupid that I'm missing :)
13:09	dnolen	yogthos: what's up?
13:10	tomoj	I wonder what typical core.async/alt usage looks like: (let [[label msg] (alt ...)] (case label ...)) ?
13:10	yogthos	dnolen: I've got a project and when I make a jar out of it, for some the cljs stuff doesn't get packaged
13:11	dnolen	yogthos: that's really a lein / lein plugin question not a cljs one
13:11	yogthos	dnolen: yeah :)
13:11	yogthos	dnolen: but figured you might have an idea
13:11	dnolen	yogthos: I don't really know since I don't create jars containing cljs with lein
13:11	yogthos	dnolen: ah no problemo then :)
13:12	dnolen	yogthos: but plenty other people have, also ask on the ClojureScript mailing list
13:12	yogthos	dnolen: yeah that's a good idea actually
13:12	yogthos	dnolen: thanks :)
13:20	scottj	dnolen: maybe change "user list" to "mailing list" in README.md
13:22	dnolen	scottj: that's a user run list, so appropriate for tooling questions like this, I and others field CLJS devs field questions on CLJS on clojure, clojure-dev
13:25	scottj	dnolen: or "user mailing list"
13:27	tomoj	is it safe to rebind LOCAL_ENV during macroexpansion?
13:28	tomoj	1) to a reasonable &env you got 2) to a map with non-LocalBinding vals or a set?
13:28	scottj	dnolen: my main point is when I went to the site I searched for mailing and there were no hits, so in my case this would have helped (a tiny bit)
13:30	callen	so I learned two things today. 1. Antirez can be trolled. 2. People actually want to troll Antirez.
13:31	dnolen	I don't think Antirez was trolled
13:32	dnolen	scottj: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/40899b7f4dcc9e2a3e0ba5f5a74f81ed005fc52f
13:33	tomoj	((macro-fn (partial apply shuffle)) [(foo!) (bar!) (baz!)])
13:33	tomoj	why not? :(
13:35	tomoj	er, I guess (defmacro mshuffle [& args] (cons 'do (shuffle (vec args))))
13:35	tomoj	-vec
13:36	scottj	tomoj: thanks
13:37	tomoj	hmmm?
13:46	amalloy	tomoj: i like the ambiguity of the / in that last line. "Jira, which is either a feature-tracking application or a bug..."
13:47	amalloy	oh. for some reason i thought tomoj was involved in the discussion of that cljs commit
14:10	callen	amalloy: JIRA is corporate herpes.
14:12	tomoj	I wonder if core.async needs splice
14:15	jjttjj	(row-seq sheet)
14:15	jjttjj	woops wrong buffer
14:25	Raynes	(inc callen)
14:25	lazybot	⇒ 6
14:33	TimMc	~jira
14:33	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:33	TimMc	clojurebot: jira is corporate herpes
14:33	clojurebot	Ok.
14:39	asteve	which style is more correct? http://pastie.org/7935815
14:39	AimHere	asteve> The third one is the least good
14:40	asteve	why?
14:40	clojurebot	Why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
14:40	AimHere	All three vectors being concatenated should be the the same indentation, for clarity's sake
14:40	ToBeReplaced	asteve: i pick number 2 here all day
14:40	asteve	I agree
14:40	asteve	ok, I'll stick with #2
14:40	Raynes	I disagree.
14:40	asteve	I was thinking #1
14:41	AimHere	The other two work, and I'd prefer 2 to 1, but that's just whichever you subjectively feel is more readable
14:41	Raynes	I'd probably do https://www.refheap.com/paste/14790 or 1.
14:41	Raynes	But I wouldn't break the vector in the middle in any of them.
14:41	asteve	Raynes: I don't like my my lines to be longer than 80 chars
14:41	Raynes	This isn't 80 characters.
14:42	callen	Raynes: staying at the Hilton is $20 more a night than airbnb's cheapest acceptable accommodations :P
14:42	AimHere	There will be cases cropping up where your line width is an issue, I assumed that this was the case here
14:42	asteve	you're right but, for me, a b c are longer than 1 char
14:42	ToBeReplaced	Raynes: i think it was just an example... replace a b c with really-long-strings or w/e
14:42	Raynes	Anyways, I'd do anything I could to not break it in the middle.
14:42	callen	TimMc: thanks for spreading the gospel my brutha.
14:42	Raynes	But I don't have an obsession with 80 character limited lines.
14:43	ToBeReplaced	i'd rather break in the middle than go over 80 chars; it's not often that i have a super long vector literal going in the middle of a fn though
14:44	Raynes	My editor doesn't break if a line is over 80 characters, luckily.
14:45	tomoj	(reduce into vecs) ?
14:45	Raynes	And I have this fancy 30'' display.
14:45	callen	"?
14:46	rasmusto	(quote (quote 30)) 'display
14:47	TimMc	callen: I've never used anything better than Jira in that space, but Jira feels very clunky anyway.
14:47	hyPiRion	~jira
14:47	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:48	Raynes	Anything not jira is better than jira in that space.
14:52	callen	TimMc: Phabricator is quite nice.
14:53	callen	it's also STD-free
14:55	kmicu	Facebook Oriented Malarkey
14:57	kmicu	And it's written in Personal Home Page language ;]
14:58	technomancy	I like my software to have that personal touch
15:08	Raynes	callen: I know a guy who works on Phabricator. He sings its praise quite adamantly.
15:08	Raynes	kmicu: This is true, but I get the feeling that it is written in the best possible way one could possibly write it in PHP.
15:10	TimMc	Raynes: You mean, it embeds a Scheme interpreter and all of the logic is in heredoc Scheme code blocks?
15:13	kmicu	Or it's probably wrapped in a monoids in category of endofunctors with an optional dependent types system and a little bit of katamorphic touch ;]
15:18	kmicu	Or maybe they simple use https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php and this is why we should have dubstep-clojure VM. Just sayin' ;)
15:26	ystael	kmicu: it's a monoid in a category of endofunctors, but the composition operation is implemented by substituting one string into another and then submitting the unsanitized result to MySQL for execution
15:29	cbp`	Hi
15:34	cbp`	If I wanted to create a way to 1) Describe a postgres database in a .txt file. 2) Generate the appropiate create table statements from that file and 3) Generate the appropiate clojure code/classes for CRUD stuff automatically so i can import them. What would be the best approach? Mostly concerning number 3
15:34	callen	cbp`: you'll need to invent it, but this interests and amuses me.
15:34	callen	cbp`: as far as databases go, you're just talking typical CREATE TABLE statements in a *.sql file.
15:35	callen	generating CRUD API code from that could be cute.
15:35	cbp`	yea I'm mostly worried about the crud stuff
15:35	callen	better still if it generates code that auto-hook validation.
15:35	callen	cbp`: most people end up writing it manually.
15:35	callen	neat idea though, I bet you could run with that but it's questionable how much labor it would save due to effort in integration.
15:36	cbp`	Well it's for a school admin system. And I wanna use txt files for metadata and csv and stuff for mass data injection
15:36	cbp`	I'd rather not describe metadata with macros or stuff like that
15:37	Raynes	tpope: ping
15:37	callen	cbp`: going to need a lot of coke and whiskey if you want that much magic.
15:38	callen	cbp`: are you sure you wouldn't rather be using rails scaffolding? :P
15:39	cbp`	:-D
15:42	cbp`	I was thinking of reading up the protobuf compiler stuff since it does kind of a similar thing but maybe macros can make it much easier
15:48	callen	cbp`: you enjoy pain.
16:00	spoon16	is there a way to disable warn-on-reflection on tests… I'm using leiningen and have this in my project file :warn-on-reflection true
16:01	Raynes	You can add a test profile that sets it to false.
16:02	Raynes	And then run lein with-profile test,dev test
16:02	Raynes	And you could add an alias to make that shorter if you wanted.
16:02	Raynes	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PROFILES.md
16:03	spoon16	I may have phrased the question incorrectly, I want it disabled for test namespaces
16:03	Raynes	It's pretty hard to do that.
16:03	spoon16	ok, not a huge deal… just was hoping to be a little lazy in my tests
16:05	callen	aphyr doesn't use Clojure for deployments and provisioning. This saddens me.
16:06	callen	OTOH, the thing he does use is neat, host-parallel, and concise.
16:06	callen	technomancy: have you used salticid?
16:07	callen	https://github.com/aphyr/salticid (warning, spider)
16:07	callen	(but a friendly spider)
16:08	wink	didn't look any better than most ssh-based "deployment" stuff tbh
16:08	wink	maybe I'm too biased towards puppet tho
16:08	callen	wink: Puppet is for fascists.
16:08	callen	wink: I want punk-rock deployment yo.
16:08	wink	callen: why?
16:08	callen	wink: because Freedom.
16:08	wink	wat
16:08	callen	also declarative deploymeny sucks.
16:08	callen	deployment*
16:09	wink	nDuff: what I was trying to say I like the "state" approach more than "make it so"
16:09	nDuff	wink: Sure -- declarative configuration is good.
16:09	wink	not talking about puppet spcifics :)
16:10	callen	I have no problem writing idempotent jobs in ssh'ish deployments.
16:10	callen	nDuff: what do you favor?
16:10	callen	I need something lightweight that can run without an overseer server (fascist!)
16:10	wink	callen: ofc you can do it. but I think it's worse than abstracting the idemportent part
16:11	callen	I disagree.
16:11	wink	I noticed:P
16:11	callen	The abstraction in Chef/puppet/pallet makes me feel like I'm talking with marbles in my mouf.
16:11	wink	callen: as I said, I prefer the idea. neither puppet nor chef have nailed the DSL/syntax/best practices
16:12	nDuff	callen: I find Chef very considerably more tolerable than Puppet. Haven't had a chance to use Pallet, though I want to. (That said, 0.8 is the first version that addresses some longstanding concerns).
16:12	callen	or I could use something that just lets me say what I want.
16:12	nDuff	callen: My experience with Chef is that I _can_ "say what I want" with it.
16:12	nDuff	...now, maybe that's a few years of Puppet's low-expectation-setting experience speaking...
16:13	wink	nDuff: had this discussion recently. don't you think chef lends to people doing more "exec stylke" than with puppet?
16:13	callen	nDuff: I find bootstrapping chef solo to be obnoxious and require an ssh'ish provisioning script.
16:13	callen	nDuff: then I am left wondering why I bothered to begin with.
16:13	wink	callen: what do you use/like then?
16:13	callen	the client/server is worse.
16:13	callen	wink: A lot.
16:13	callen	wink: I
16:14	callen	my dev-ops history went: Perl -> Ruby -> Python -> Fabric -> Clojure
16:14	callen	I've been using a mix of Fabric/Gantry/my own thing in clj
16:14	callen	Fabric + Cuisine brings a nice chef'y flavor to Fabric.
16:14	wink	I don't see clojure as a valid alternative there, really
16:14	callen	wink: beg ya pawdon sirrah?
16:15	wink	maybe you could be more specific, but learning clojure for deployment is a little over-the-top imho
16:15	wink	at least none of the sysadmins I speak highly of do work with it
16:15	wink	not saying they can't learn, but it's... too different
16:16	callen	who learned Clojure for deployment?
16:16	callen	I knew Clojure for other reasons
16:16	callen	I just decided to see what deploying with it could be like.
16:16	callen	I found the futures/promises abstraction to be very helpful in managing collections of host-parallel and task-parallel work.
16:16	callen	wink: are you talking about something you've actually tried or are you speculating?
16:17	wink	callen: how big are chances anyone has tried deployment with clojure?
16:17	wink	I'm not sure I'm willing to roll out a JVM on all my hosts
16:17	callen	LOL
16:17	callen	LOL LOL LOL
16:17	callen	^^ you think that's what I did?
16:17	callen	just lo.
16:17	callen	lol
16:17	nDuff	wink: Have you looked at Pallet?
16:17	callen	sorry I need to change my pants because I just pissed myself laughing
16:17	nDuff	wink: It doesn't involve rolling out a JVM.
16:18	wink	nDuff: not really in detail
16:18	callen	wink: you are in a weird headspace mate.
16:18	nDuff	wink: ...anyhow -- no, I don't find that Chef leads to "exec-style" code.
16:18	callen	wink: you generate and ship bash scripts or you just execute over ssh.
16:18	callen	wink: I used conch to generate chained SSH commands that I ripped stdout from.
16:18	nDuff	wink: Chef makes it easy to logic in recipes, but that logic is run at compile time, not execution time
16:18	wink	callen: not really, I just don't know you or what to expect from your seemingly random bits and pieces instead of a few links or details
16:18	nDuff	wink: ...so, it changes the things that get declared.
16:19	callen	wink: you picked the least efficient, most irrational method possible. I don't know if it was out of a desire to be uncharitable to the methodology or what.
16:19	wink	callen: it was based on the nitpick on puppet's ruby daemon. which I also don't like
16:19	callen	I'm strongly considering moving to a "compile bash script and stream logs" method.
16:19	callen	just for the inspect-ability
16:20	callen	nDuff: pallet is still marbles mouf.
16:20	callen	nDuff: also fuck EC2 and fuck jClouds.
16:20	nDuff	(though as it is, Pallet's POSIX sh generation is kinda' icky; would want to do a fair bit of work with that before actually putting it into production)
16:21	cemerick	callen: stay classy?
16:21	nDuff	callen: shrug. Not like you have to use the whole thing if you don't want to.
16:21	callen	nDuff: if there's a less retarded way to "point and fire" pallet at an otherwise unprovisioned node and get started running with only an ssh authorized key I'd be happy to roll thta way.
16:21	callen	cemerick: never, contrary to the worker class ethic.
16:25	seangrove	Curious to get some help on some cljs code
16:26	callen	seangrove: That doesn't really make a lot of sense semantically.
16:26	callen	seangrove: how can you be curious "to get" some help?
16:26	callen	seangrove: are you curious as to the likelihood of getting help? Are you curious as to what form it could take?
16:26	seangrove	callen: Will revisit that sentence from the ground-up once I've completed its follow-on
16:26	callen	minimum viable English
16:26	callen	gg World.
16:26	wink	lol
16:27	wink	hm, pallet seems awfully verbose
16:27	seangrove	Trying to use Firebase/Stripe/3rd-party javascript that has to load async. I usually wrap the api in a namespace that the rest of my cljs code uses, with a single 'handle'.
16:27	callen	^^ see? SEE?!
16:27	callen	seangrove: don't use Firebase.
16:27	callen	seangrove: sharecropper bullshit startup.
16:27	seangrove	S'all the same
16:27	shaungilchrist	true story
16:27	callen	erm, no its not.
16:27	seangrove	https://www.refheap.com/paste/2dde9d9589dfde6aa0ccd2168
16:27	callen	it's most assuredly not all the same.
16:28	callen	you can run a stack you actually control and can deploy to any server you like
16:28	technomancy	wink: better than the alternative. chef is impossible to debug in a lot of cases because there's lots of implicit gunk going on
16:28	callen	also known as everything else.
16:28	seangrove	I have the same exact code for the Stripe ns too
16:28	callen	seangrove: find someone worthier of your soul to sell to.
16:28	seangrove	Ok, done, Stripe. Like those guys a lot.
16:28	wink	technomancy: I understand all of these tools need some time to get into. but knowing puppet and chef the "install curl" example makes me shudder
16:28	seangrove	https://www.refheap.com/paste/829f1f7faf3491619c5691241
16:29	seangrove	Just imagine I meant Stripe from the beginning
16:29	callen	seangrove: I can't, the sharecropping is boring its way into my soul.
16:29	seangrove	Anyway, this isn't awesome code for lots of reasons, and I feel like a Clojure promise would work very well here
16:30	callen	there's some work on cljs promises for Node
16:30	kendru	pear upgrade
16:30	seangrove	Obviously, that's not available in the current incarnation of cljs. Wondering what (better) solutions exist in the browser-side cljs world
16:30	kendru	oops! didn't realize which window had focus
16:30	dnolen	seangrove: yucky
16:30	dnolen	but I see why you need to do that
16:31	dnolen	seangrove: rhickey's core.async work can probably be used for stuff like this?
16:31	callen	at least the lambda syntax is nicer than vanilla JS.
16:31	seangrove	dnolen: Yeah, tried to compile them inside of the cljs output, but didn't work for lots of reasons
16:31	dnolen	I'm really looking forward to seeing that stuff get ported to CLJS, I don't think it'll be that much work
16:31	callen	dnolen: source maps?
16:32	callen	oh I almost forgot, "carthago delenda est".
16:32	dnolen	callen: not yet
16:32	callen	shucks.
16:32	seangrove	dnolen: Haven't looked at core.async at all, just finished watching http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Concurrency-Clojure, thought I should revisit this code
16:33	dnolen	seangrove: yeah real Clojure promises would be cool here but they have blocking semantics
16:33	seangrove	dnolen: Which would of course be awesome in cljs ;)
16:33	wink	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_configuration_management_software sums up the mess quite nicely
16:33	callen	dnolen: which is sorta what makes them useful.
16:34	dnolen	and that's probably not gonna happen, but core.async can give you blocking semantics in JS and solves the async stuff way better anyhow
16:34	seangrove	I wonder if they could be turned into setIntervals in all cases
16:34	dnolen	in CLJS
16:34	dnolen	i mean
16:34	callen	maybe the problem can be solved with opaque macros.
16:37	callen	http://jolbox.com/dynamic-benchmark.html <--- sexy connection pooling.
16:41	callen	cbp`: what's your github account again?
16:43	callen	alexbaranosky: https://github.com/korma/Korma/issues/101 are @myfreeweb's changes merged?
16:44	cbp`	callen: cesarbp
16:45	callen	cbp`: meh, just fork and pull request.
16:45	callen	cbp`: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise
16:45	callen	but now I can github stalk you.
16:46	callen	bwahahaha
16:50	wink	dammit, as if I didn't have anything better to do than look at this now :P
16:52	callen	wink: look at what?
16:52	wink	callen: your rethinkdb stuff
16:53	callen	wink: oh god don't look at that
16:54	wink	too late!
16:54	callen	the fuck man. Look at something cool.
16:54	callen	wink: like my 400k LOC elisp .emacs repo.
16:54	wink	I'm too lazy to fire up ssh and install rethinkdb
16:54	wink	but it's close enough to be interesting :P
16:54	callen	or my hacker-typer clone
16:54	callen	or my auto-logging/auditing library hack for Django
16:54	callen	#$@#$%%@#%
16:55	wink	been trying to look at rethink for weeks
16:56	seangrove	wink: Should check out Firebase
16:56	seangrove	Pretty comparable to rethink, but considerably nicer
16:57	wink	seangrove: firebase.com? read about it and I'm not so sure I find it interesting
16:57	seangrove	callen
16:57	seangrove	callen's had too much coffee, and derailed my cljs question, so thought I would troll him a bit
16:58	seangrove	So no, firebase isn't comparable to rethink at all ;)
16:58	wink	the interface is JSON-y
16:58	wink	that's not too far off!
16:58	wink	you could even put mongodb in that bucket as well
17:00	callen	wink: rethinkdb, unlike Mongo, is literally JSON. MongoDB is BSON.
17:00	Pupnik-	callen, whats makes you say making games in clojure is a labor of love? people have used lisps for game scripting (commercially) before
17:01	callen	Pupnik-: and some people can eat with their feet.
17:01	callen	most because they don't have arms. Those that do, usually take the path of less resistance.
17:01	callen	seangrove: are you familiar with the stories of Diogenes of Sinope?
17:01	cbp`	I've done all sorts of text games with common lisp :D
17:02	callen	cbp`: don't encourage him.
17:02	wink	Minecraft runs on the JVM
17:02	seangrove	callen: I'm not, no. Will google it.
17:02	callen	wink: and most people resent it for that. It also made it less portable and less performant, not more.
17:02	gtrak	callen: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2985/postmortem_naughty_dogs_jak_and_.php lisp...
17:02	wink	callen: you're missing the point though :P
17:02	callen	wink: it eats most peoples' computers alive and often causes laptops to overheat. It's horrendous.
17:02	callen	gtrak: don't pull GOAL out of your ass, that's just silly.
17:03	callen	gtrak: have you seen it?
17:03	technomancy	minecraft outsources all the graphics stuff to lwjgl or whatever
17:03	gtrak	nope... :-) why does it matter?
17:03	callen	it's assembler with parentheses.
17:03	gtrak	sounds like a much better assembler
17:03	callen	technomancy: and it's one of the least inefficient game clients in existence as a result.
17:03	callen	is there some reason being a Lisp user means "right tool for the right job" stops being a 'thing'?
17:03	wink	which would be a good thing
17:04	callen	you don't have to use Lisp with everything if it's not the best choice.
17:04	callen	You can admit it's not the God from On High.
17:04	callen	It's okay, nobody will mock you.
17:04	TimMc	I will!
17:04	callen	okay TimMc will mock you.
17:04	callen	I won't though.
17:05	technomancy	callen: right; that is to say efficiency is not a prerequisite to success
17:05	wink	callen: see, that somehow conflicts tremendously with your proposed usage of clojure for deployment. some people might disagree
17:05	callen	technomancy: actually it's causing real problems for mojang right now.
17:05	technomancy	"making a game" is a very vague requirement anyway
17:05	callen	technomancy: the shitty, inefficient, and unportable codebase has caused them real problems in terms of feature expansion.
17:05	technomancy	callen: right; all their problems would go away if they had just started out with C++
17:05	callen	I prefer, "make a prototype in something facile, then if you start giving a shit, fallback to C++"
17:05	Pupnik-	what does any of that have to do with java callen
17:05	technomancy	because they would have just given up before actually shipping on account of extreme brain trauma
17:06	wink	lol
17:06	callen	Pupnik-: it doesn't, people are just fucking dogpiling me because I advocate rational technology decisions.
17:06	Pupnik-	well you haven't provided any reasons yet
17:06	technomancy	there are lots of different kinds of games
17:06	callen	it's not unreasonable to make a first version in Java/lwjgl or pygame but then scrap it for a more serious game engine.
17:06	Pupnik-	other than the common thought that FP is bad for games
17:06	callen	Pupnik-: we could talk about how FRP is a black hole.
17:06	technomancy	some of them may have requirements that would indicate using a terrible language for them. some of them don.t
17:07	callen	Pupnik-: and how it's insanely impractical and makes functionally pure games a boondoggle.
17:07	wink	did anyone mention prolog yet?
17:07	callen	I'm still popping popcorn for when Carmack gives his report on porting Wolf3d to Haskell.
17:08	gtrak	callen: they use MzScheme in somoe of their games
17:08	Pupnik-	someone already made a FPS in haskell
17:08	callen	gtrak: I've heard of Chicken Scheme used in some iOS games.
17:08	wink	according to haskell fans, there's nothing it can't do
17:08	callen	Pupnik-: oh yes, clearly that validates the use of FP for all game development.
17:08	Pupnik-	nono
17:08	Pupnik-	just pointing out that carmack porting wolf3d isnt a first for haskell
17:08	callen	Lets just use haskell for everything, fuck it.
17:08	callen	FRP for everybody.
17:09	callen	want to make a game? Hope you're doing post-doc research.
17:09	rasmusto	wrap my monday in a monad
17:09	gtrak	if carmack wants to use haskell, he's carmack, he can do what he wants
17:09	wink	when you look at shipping dates, bugs and projections I do wonder if some FP wouldn't hurt though :P
17:09	callen	gtrak: yes but if Carmack chokes I'm going to dance on the corpses of a thousand suicidal haskell programmers.
17:09	callen	I know betting on Carmack choking is always a bad bet, but I can't wait to see him bitch anyway.
17:10	gtrak	callen: if carmack chokes then it probably can't be done :-)
17:10	callen	It'll be like the good old days of the plan file.
17:10	callen	gtrak: precisely.
17:10	callen	my suspicion is that he'll produce something that works, but that it'll be less functional / comprehensible than his functional C++ he's been writing
17:10	callen	that he'll hate it
17:10	callen	and he'll focus on simply "upping the ante" with C++ and FP
17:10	technomancy	shoulda used ocaml
17:11	callen	technomancy: she's dead Jim.
17:11	callen	technomancy: just let it go.
17:11	technomancy	they're all about falling back when speed is an issue
17:11	wink	no one ever shoulda used ocaml
17:11	gtrak	uncharted 2 uses scheme for scripting anyway: http://www.slideshare.net/naughty_dog/statebased-scripting-in-uncharted-2-among-thieves
17:11	callen	yeah uhm, who cares?
17:12	callen	people used Lua back when it was slow for game scripting too.
17:12	callen	that's not really the point.
17:12	callen	you can't do the whole thing in a scripting language.
17:12	callen	there has to be a game engine, probably compiled from C++ with retained mode graphics.
17:13	callen	Civilization used Python. That doesn't mean you should write a game engine in Python.
17:13	Pupnik-	no
17:13	callen	Incidentally, their use of python is part of what slowed the game engine down so badly.
17:13	Pupnik-	but you can write a game with pythong and sdl
17:13	technomancy	I don't think anyone is saying never use C++
17:13	gtrak	python sucks pretty hard for this, much harder than java or clojure
17:13	gtrak	mostly due to GIL
17:14	callen	that is far from the biggest or only problem.
17:14	callen	the GIL is a strawman for people who don't understand Ruby or Python to complain about.
17:14	technomancy	I'm just saying maybe if you've got requirements for which C++ is the best choice, maybe you should think about how badly you actually want to write that game and whether less demanding games can still be fun to play.
17:15	wink	so let's conclude http://hylang.org/ as the worst game engine language? A lisp on python.
17:15	callen	technomancy: I hear backgammon can be done in JavaScript.
17:15	technomancy	"Sometimes Excel is the best tool for the job; the trick is to never find yourself in the situations where that's true."
17:15	gtrak	callen: I'd rather blame pervasive GC than a 'language'
17:16	callen	actually no, the semantics of Ruby and Python are a real problem
17:16	gtrak	C++ might have more mindshare.. not sure why it's technically superior
17:16	callen	because they create the obscene GC pressure to begin with
17:16	callen	the semantics of the metaprogramming model and object wrappers and dictionary/hash-map centricity generate huge amounts of garbage for the GC to sift through.
17:16	gtrak	I knew that, AND I think GIL is a problem, oh noes..
17:17	callen	gtrak: "not sure why it's technically superior" - do you think you can write a faster game engine in Clojure?
17:17	gtrak	with enough time and money :-)
17:17	callen	nope.
17:17	callen	you'd just end up writing a compiler that ignored the clojure code and just spat out assembler that did what you wanted.
17:17	gtrak	well yea
17:17	callen	Nope.
17:18	gtrak	you make no sense.
17:18	gtrak	I would probably write it in C++, but I wouldn't say I couldn't do otherwise
17:19	callen	gtrak: I'm not supposed to make sense, only to be right.
17:19	wink	If the route to game development leads to C++, I'll pass on game development
17:19	gtrak	hah
17:19	dnolen	also Minecraft
17:19	patchwork	Well callen, now that you have convinced the whole #clojure channel of your rightness, what are you going to do with your life?
17:19	gtrak	I've done C++, even prototyped games in it, it's not terrible, it's just tradeoffs
17:19	Pupnik-	wink, not at all, look at the success of unity
17:19	callen	patchwork: retire on the proceeds and pay people to bring me scotch and sodas.
17:20	gtrak	callen is being very religious about those tradeoffs
17:20	callen	no, just rigorous.
17:20	technomancy	I've never seen so many nickels
17:20	patchwork	Drowning in nickels
17:20	technomancy	patchwork: all scrooge-mcduck style diving board
17:20	wink	Pupnik-: I don't think so, apart from a surprisingly nice experience with Qt lately I've always hated it
17:21	callen	technomancy: that would be freakin' sweet.
17:21	callen	technomancy: especially if the Scottish accent is included
17:21	gtrak	how about.. it's impractical for one man to write a AAA game engine in any language
17:21	callen	"but Unka Scroooooge"
17:21	callen	gtrak: nope.
17:21	technomancy	gtrak: it's impractical to write an AAA game.
17:21	gtrak	example?
17:21	clojurebot	api examples is examples
17:21	callen	gtrak: Carmack
17:22	wink	ok, then say "first"
17:22	wink	for carmack it's just what he's always done
17:22	wink	and Rage wasn't AAA
17:22	wink	(or whatever that iPad disaster was called)
17:22	gtrak	no one can compete with carmack, because they didn't write wolf3d, doom, etc..
17:22	callen	alex_baranosky: https://github.com/korma/Korma/issues/101 are @myfreeweb's
17:23	callen	changes merged?
17:23	gtrak	if no one had worked with carmack on those projects, would he be able to pull quake4 out of his ass from scratch?
17:23	callen	wink: Rage was AAA
17:23	callen	wink: top of the line game engine, even if the game itself was poor. Dunno what you mean about iPad, that's something else.
17:23	callen	Rage was a PC and console game.
17:23	callen	gtrak: probably.
17:23	gtrak	if he wasn't involved with the development of graphics for the last 20 years, would he have such a head start?
17:24	callen	gtrak: it's said the codebase was consistently 80% Carmack for a long time after Quake 1, 2, and 3.
17:24	gtrak	he's an institution
17:24	callen	he's a sociopathic demigod and we should supplicate ourselves before him and his rocketeering minions.
17:24	patchwork	callen: You sound jealous
17:24	wink	callen: https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/rage-hd/id400707675?mt=8 and I didn't like it at all
17:25	callen	patchwork: intensely.
17:25	callen	wink: I don't know why you would buy junkware like that.
17:25	callen	wink: for the record, I didn't like Rage on the PC either, except I lost $60 to figure that out.
17:25	wink	callen: I've never even possessed an apple device. I just played it.
17:25	callen	wink: you are more fortunate than I.
17:25	wink	so it seems
17:26	callen	wink: do you like connection pooling libraries?
17:27	wink	callen: I think I even skipped using c3p0 and with my current needs of max 1 req/s I'm not sure I have use for them
17:28	callen	wink: http://jolbox.com/dynamic-benchmark.html check out that hot pooling action.
17:28	wink	callen: I saw it
17:28	callen	wink: sexy, yes?
17:28	wink	depending on your needs, maybe
17:29	Raynes	callen, wink: I liked Rage.
17:29	Raynes	I liked Borderlands so much more, but I enjoyed Rage
17:29	callen	Raynes: I got through the first mission hub, then got bored.
17:29	callen	Raynes: Borderlands is better.
17:30	wink	Raynes: good for you, I somehow ended my shooter days with Q3 I think
17:30	callen	Raynes: have you played B2?
17:30	wink	which is only like 12 years ago...
17:30	callen	wink: no, is sexy regardless! need or no!
17:30	Raynes	callen: If it's called Borderlands you bet I played it.
17:30	callen	wink: rocketjumpin' railgunnin' multiplayin' Q3?
17:30	callen	wink: or piker bot stomping bullshit?
17:31	wink	callen: my first thought was "wait, it didn't have singleplayer anyway?"
17:31	callen	Raynes: I stopped after the first. How's the second? Did they balance the classes this time?
17:31	Raynes	It was amazing.
17:31	callen	wink: I knew scumbags that bot-stomped and claimed to be amazing at Q3 at the time. They got quiet after a LAN party. :P
17:31	callen	I wasn't even that good at Q3, I was better at UT - which just made it funnier for me.
17:31	callen	flak cannon or bust.
17:31	wink	callen: never played that much. we still played ActionQuake2 until long into the 00 years
17:32	callen	wink: I remember the hook mod for Q2
17:32	wink	I even played counterstrike 0.5 or somewhat before it became cool.
17:32	wink	we mocked it for being so slow-paced
17:33	callen	my real problem with CS is that it felt (and still does) too kill-tradey
17:33	callen	unless you camp tons.
17:33	Raynes	Doom 3 is one of my favorite fps games.
17:33	Raynes	Bioshock takes the cake.
17:33	callen	Bioshock is cheating.
17:34	Raynes	If you dis bioshock, I'm going to cause you bodily harm on the 29th.
17:34	Raynes	"Oops, I got too excited at the concert and flailed my arms in such a way that I broke your nose."
17:34	callen	Raynes: psh. It's LA, I'll have bodyguards in tow.
17:34	callen	LA == gettin' shot by gats right?
17:34	rasmusto	I'm playing halflife 2 with an oculus rift, that's pretty cool
17:34	Raynes	I've been shot by so many gats.
17:35	Raynes	rasmusto: I haven't played HL2. Played the first one a while back though.
17:35	callen	Raynes: I love Bioshock, I just think picking it as a favorite FPS is cheating. That it was an FPS is almost besides the point.
17:35	Raynes	The end boss of that game made me want to give up on video games forever.
17:35	rasmusto	Raynes: I'm the opposite, haven't played the first
17:35	Raynes	Don't.
17:35	callen	rasmusto: don't
17:35	rasmusto	haha
17:35	Raynes	You'll double murder suicide your whole family.
17:36	Raynes	Don't put your family through it.
17:37	callen	Raynes: ohay, new best practices for Korma: https://github.com/myfreeweb/clj-bonecp-url
17:37	wink	Don't bring your guns to town son, leave your guns at home
17:37	callen	Raynes: in case you decide to stop using MongoDB and use a database that shows you care about your data.
17:37	rasmusto	I almost puked into my vr headset trying to climb ladders in the sewers, that's an interesting feeling
17:38	callen	rasmusto: a resounding endorsement of the oculus.
17:38	Raynes	callen: My data is just fine.
17:38	rasmusto	callen: It needs a bit of calibration and a very calm stomach
17:39	callen	rasmusto: uh huh.
17:39	callen	Raynes: maybe.
17:39	callen	Raynes: also, I wasn't kidding about that migration script thing for RethinkDB
17:39	callen	Raynes: it's horrifying and leads me to believe the DB is untouchable until they clean that up.
17:39	Raynes	I didn't look at it because I can't actually use rethinkdb without a Clojure driver. :<
17:40	callen	Raynes: probably for the best for now. But this exists: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise
17:40	shriphani	hi everyone. In Python, I could use a decorator to rate-limit a function (using a global variable (say) that recorded the last time the function was called. What is the clojure way of doing this ?
17:40	wink	rasmusto: does it have smell enabled? :)
17:40	callen	shriphani: a closure?
17:40	tieTYT2	is there anything built in to clojure that's the same as (-> (group-by f %) vals) ?
17:40	rasmusto	though I'd say that the pros outweight the cons. The 3d is insanely good, rotational head tracking is 95% there, and the game support is surprisingly good for this early
17:40	rasmusto	wink: not unless you puke
17:40	wink	:P
17:41	shriphani	callen, umm docs ? I am quite a n00b.
17:41	Raynes	tieTYT2: (vals (group-by f %))
17:41	Raynes	That's built in. :p
17:41	callen	shriphani: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_science)
17:41	Raynes	There aren't any docs for closures.
17:41	tieTYT2	Raynes: sweet. Can't wait to try that
17:41	Raynes	Closures are basic fundamental functional programming things.
17:41	Raynes	tieTYT2: <3
17:41	callen	Raynes: that wasn't going to stop me linking the Wikipedia page.
17:41	tieTYT2	i'm going to take that as a no
17:42	wink	Getting closure with clojure closures?
17:42	Raynes	callen: Well, the wikipedia page is the relevant documentation.
17:42	Raynes	I just meant that there isn't really any Clojure-specific closure documentation.
17:42	jodaro	Raynes: " blah blah blah without a Clojure driver ... "
17:42	jodaro	sounds like a challenge
17:42	callen	shriphani: are you a PhD student?
17:42	Raynes	jodaro: callen already did it.
17:42	callen	I didn't do shit
17:42	callen	don't blame that on me
17:42	Raynes	You did too.
17:42	Raynes	https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise
17:42	jodaro	heh
17:42	callen	it only half works.
17:42	Raynes	jodaro: Also, hi. Haven't seen you round these parts in a while.
17:42	shriphani	um callen why ?
17:42	wink	callen: writing or reading?
17:42	jodaro	(EXPERIMENTAL TEST HARNESS, DOESN'T DO ANYTHING YO)
17:43	jodaro	heh
17:43	callen	shriphani: I'm measuring my self-worth, please answer the question.
17:43	Raynes	lol
17:43	jodaro	Raynes: hi. been doing other random things and playing with Go and Haskell
17:43	jodaro	but i think i'm back to clojure-land
17:43	Raynes	jodaro: Go? You poor child.
17:43	shriphani	callen.. yes.
17:43	Raynes	At least you had some Haskell to ease the pain.
17:43	callen	shriphani: I knew it.
17:43	callen	Raynes: I had a similar walk in the wilderness.
17:43	callen	then I decided I didn't enjoy pain.
17:44	callen	shriphani: are you a PhD student in CS?
17:44	Raynes	I wanted to use Go for something recently but people were like "OMG NO USABLE COLLECTIONS"
17:44	callen	shriphani: was your undergrad in CS?
17:44	Raynes	But it's the only good thing that produces small binaries these days.
17:44	callen	Raynes: no, each collection is a special snowflake you must artisanally craft yourself in Go.
17:44	jodaro	i'm liking Go for a few reasons
17:44	Raynes	Except for OCaml which technomancy will helpfully point out if I don't immediately correct myself.
17:44	callen	I don't think statically linked binaries are known for being "small"
17:44	callen	but okay.
17:44	jodaro	and i totally love haskell
17:44	callen	they are self-contained
17:44	callen	but not small.
17:44	shriphani	callen, ee mostly. phd in cs now.
17:45	Raynes	callen: My definition of small is less than 10 megsa.
17:45	jodaro	but Clojure still hits way more points for practicality
17:45	tieTYT2	I wrote this program that can crawl a bunch of sites. Each site is different and those are handled by passing in a map of functions that do things like, find-the-links-you-care-about. That depends on the client of the code so it's configurable. But that is used deep down in the bowels, so I end up having to pass a map throughout my code. I realized that I could just mark the functions as
17:45	tieTYT2	dynamic and require every client to specify a binding. Is this a normal practice?
17:45	callen	shriphani: how many years are you into the PhD program?
17:45	shriphani	callen, 1.
17:45	callen	Raynes: you've clearly been on the JVM too long.
17:45	Raynes	Haskell either produces gigantic binaries or very small binaries and I haven't quite figured out how to make it decide between the two on demand.
17:45	jodaro	not the least of which being that we run shit on the JVM already
17:45	callen	shriphani: you really need to get those CS fundamentals together.
17:45	Raynes	callen: No, I clearly know how small my binaries need to be to be reasonable for my purposes.
17:45	callen	shriphani: I dropped out of my CS undergrad in the first quarter when I was 18 and I knew what closures were back then
17:45	Raynes	I actually like Rust very much, but it's so completely frickin' unusable.
17:46	callen	Raynes: for fundamental and temporary reasons.
17:46	jodaro	yeah rust could be cool
17:46	hiredman	tieTYT2: what you really what is polymorphism, look at mutlimethods or protocols
17:46	jodaro	but again
17:46	jodaro	too soon to tell
17:46	callen	the problem with Rust is that smart people are making a smart programming language for smart people.
17:46	Raynes	The documentation is worthless, it doesn't have a good and documented http client (which is ironic given that their writing web browser crap in it), and the packaging system is a crazy mess.
17:46	Raynes	I like to think I'm pretty smart and I still can't figure that shit out.
17:46	callen	and the only documentation is a log-aggregation of the mailing list directly injected into your brain
17:46	callen	so if you're not klabnik or walton you're just sorta fucked.
17:47	wink	who is walton?
17:47	Raynes	Go is fantastic on the documentation front, but blurgh everywhere else.
17:47	callen	wink: he works on Rust.
17:47	callen	wink: mad genius type, you'd like him.
17:47	callen	I think he's a PNW'er.
17:47	Raynes	What about Hoare?
17:47	jodaro	Go has nice doc stuff
17:47	jodaro	nice tools
17:47	Raynes	As an aside, I feel naughty saying that word.
17:47	Raynes	HOARE
17:47	wink	callen: what does PNW mean?
17:47	callen	we're all filthy Hoares.
17:47	jodaro	does a good job of getting you writing some code fast
17:47	jodaro	but
17:47	callen	wink: pacific northwest.
17:47	callen	wink: cf. technomancy
17:47	wink	callen: ah, need to get my geography straight :P
17:48	jodaro	the package version thing is going to be a problem
17:48	tieTYT2	hiredman: but each client will need to write the implementation of like 5 functions. That's a good fit for protocols, but I don't have different types being passed in. For a multimethod, what would I be dispatching on?
17:48	wink	jodaro: yeah, I found it wicked cool until someone told me there's no versioning
17:48	callen	Raynes: earlier conversation reminded me of that masters graduate of CS I met at an insurance company. Her undergrad was CS too. Had to explain what dynamic and static typing were.
17:48	callen	Raynes: I pretty much stopped planning on going back to school that day.
17:49	callen	completely.
17:49	jodaro	but i really dig the godoc stuff
17:49	hiredman	tieTYT2: whatever, you can dispatch on the url
17:49	tieTYT2	hiredman: that's true. Is that true for protocols?
17:49	Raynes	callen: I know a similar person.
17:49	callen	Raynes: can I mock them?
17:49	Raynes	Sure.
17:49	wink	there are several in each CS course :P
17:49	hiredman	no, for protocols you would need a type for each "type" of thing
17:49	tieTYT2	i've read a bit about protocols and that didn't seem possible to me. I remember it needing a new type for dispatching
17:50	callen	Raynes: I need to satisfy my blood-thirsty impulse for class warfare.
17:50	hiredman	correct
17:50	callen	wink: schmucks that do their coursework and nothing else?
17:50	tieTYT2	ok this sounds pretty good. And I can define the multimethod in the client NS to keep things organized and small in the core functionality
17:50	callen	oh that reminds me.
17:50	jodaro	clojure is way nicer to look at than Go, too
17:50	callen	I should replace that retarded type dispatch with multimethods
17:50	callen	jodaro: that's an understatement
17:50	jodaro	anyways
17:50	jodaro	yeah
17:51	callen	but I'm convinced Rust is intentionally designed to look Rusty
17:51	tieTYT2	thanks
17:51	justin_smith	tieTYT2: with a protocol what you would pass in is something that implements that protocol, instead of dispatching on it, you would be passing it the messages of that protocol and letting it do its thing in response
17:51	wink	callen: not necessarily. some were the mathetatician types, some were the project manager type, some were just idiots and some were the people you'd find in several language channels on irc
17:51	callen	wink: speaking of language channels on IRC, I think the most evil/hateful one is ##C. Thoughts?
17:52	callen	Raynes: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/blob/master/src/bitemyapp/revise/core.clj#L150 these should be multimethods right?
17:52	tieTYT2	justin_smith: yeah, but ignoring the fact I don't have different types, with multimethods things don't have to be passed around
17:52	wink	callen: never tried a c channel, actually. found the linux/distro ones pretty bad in general
17:52	callen	wink: haha, oh man. You are in for a treat if you ever ask a question in ##C.
17:52	Raynes	callen: shrug. Unless you need to add several more in the future or each body is very large, not really.
17:52	callen	just don't send me the bill for the time spent in the burn ward.
17:53	jodaro	ahh, rethinkdb is protobuf based?
17:53	callen	Raynes: really? I figured I'd get flamed for that code.
17:53	callen	jodaro: I prefer to believe it's pain based.
17:53	wink	callen: seeing that last line I wonder if there's #C# or ##C# :P
17:53	callen	jodaro: made up jack-shit idiom ignoring length prefix bullshit.
17:53	tieTYT2	hiredman: my current implementation to me seems like a higher ordered function. How could you tell I wanted polymorphism instead?
17:53	jodaro	some might argue they are one and the same
17:53	Raynes	callen: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/blob/master/src/bitemyapp/revise/core.clj#L167 ur a real profeshunul
17:53	callen	wink: they're friendlier.
17:53	callen	wink: ##C is the greatest concentration of evil in the entire digital world.
17:54	callen	Raynes: as long as I can distinguish one of the two exceptions I throw, it's fine.
17:54	jodaro	hahah
17:54	wink	callen: that's good to know. I usually ask some personal contacts for advice on c anyway
17:54	callen	wink: you should ask ##C next time
17:54	callen	wink: then tell us about it in here.
17:54	wink	callen: depends on when I do c next.. could be months
17:55	callen	Raynes: I use real and informative error messages on stuff other people are supposed to use, I said in the README.md that nobody is supposed to touch this clownshoes test harness.
17:55	callen	wink: I can wait. So can the hive of scum and villainy.
17:56	hiredman	I have a X, Y, and Z and I want them to do different things at point C in my code
17:56	callen	hiredman: are they functions?
17:56	tieTYT2	callen: he was responding to me
17:56	callen	hiredman: can I buy a vowel?
17:56	callen	hiredman: is this the daily double?
17:56	callen	can I phone a friend?
17:57	jodaro	(how many game show references can callen make ...)
17:57	callen	tieTYT2: when has that ever stopped me?
17:57	tieTYT2	hiredman: isn't that just like (map) for example? The only difference is I wrote the code
17:57	jodaro	big money, no whammies
17:57	callen	jodaro: the secret is to cheat.
17:57	bhenry	hello
17:57	Raynes	Good afternoon sir.
17:58	bhenry	how would i go about scraping all the text from html to make text/plain versions of text/html emails?
17:58	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/laser
17:58	bhenry	i want to run a custom function for certain tags that will add to the text it creates.
17:58	callen	bhenry: heuristics if you want intelligent main content abstraction
17:58	hiredman	tieTYT2: I don't follow
17:58	jodaro	wow
17:59	bhenry	so i can turn links into "link text (link-url)"
17:59	Raynes	See my link. I'm sure you can do something with laser.
17:59	tieTYT2	ok I'm looking at (map) as your text book case of a HOF
17:59	callen	bhenry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_increasing_subsequence
17:59	hiredman	map is always mapping a function over a seq, but you want (F A) to do different things depending on A
17:59	callen	bhenry: www2009.eprints.org/98/1/p971.pdf‎https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2009.eprints.org%2F98%2F1%2Fp971.pdf&ei=LZuaUYeAJqbRiwK-6oHgCg&usg=AFQjCNEss8bjU9D1yd-1KwWHQ7AcA3Adgg&sig2=d3U8ec1VFKSSPs0ilW0yTA
17:59	callen	hrm. fail.
17:59	callen	www2009.eprints.org/98/1/p971.pdf‎
17:59	callen	www2009.eprints.org/98/1/p971.pdf‎
18:00	callen	wow, keyboard suckery today.
18:00	callen	bhenry: ^^ anyway, that.
18:00	tieTYT2	hiredman: what's (F A)? You mean like this: (map (F A) AS) ?
18:00	rasmusto	can functional programming fix X11 copy paste?
18:00	callen	rasmusto: no but it can heal the Earth.
18:00	tieTYT2	i think I see your point
18:00	callen	rasmusto: how'd you know I was an Xorg user? :(
18:00	tieTYT2	in map, the F is what changes
18:00	hiredman	tieTYT2: I mean somewhere you call a function F on a value A, and you want it do do different things based on what A is
18:01	callen	hiredman: isn't this called an if-case?
18:01	callen	(cond ...)
18:01	rasmusto	callen: I've middle click dumped embarrasing stuff before
18:01	rasmusto	(mostly my bad code)
18:01	callen	hiredman: I think I know this one dude, I even used cond recently.
18:01	callen	rasmusto: yeah, I was using m3
18:01	callen	annoying.
18:01	callen	hiredman: pick me pick me
18:01	callen	I know the answerrrrrrrr
18:02	tieTYT2	hiredman: anyway, I think this will just take time for me. I thought writing my own HOF was the best solution. Now that you've suggested multimethods I can see that it's a better approach. The only thing that irks me is that I can't articulate why, given the circumstances
18:02	tieTYT2	thanks for the help
18:03	hiredman	passing around your own vtables is silly?
18:03	tieTYT2	yeah
18:04	callen	tieTYT2: multimethods are known to cause: eczema, dryness, seepage, night sweats, and can interact badly with MAOIs.
18:05	callen	tieTYT2: please see your doctor first.
18:05	tieTYT2	seems like a good fit
18:05	technomancy	maoris?
18:05	callen	technomancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor
18:06	wink	interested, I only knew MAOs
18:06	wink	s,ted,ting,
18:06	technomancy	I prefer to imagine multimethods oppressing new zealand tribal groups, sorry.
18:08	callen	technomancy: I'm imagining "revenge against the luddites" by way of metaprogramming.
18:08	callen	macros stomping textile workers. multimethods driving out natives.
18:09	technomancy	middlewares engaged in gerrymandering
18:10	kovas	resources must be decomplected from culture
18:10	kovas	fork/join executing in the minds of sleeping african children
18:10	callen	kovas: wealth alienation from population and land is the capitalist dissolution of the worker class!
18:10	wink	the Ice Ages are the world's GC then?
18:11	technomancy	kovas: I think that happened in Overland
18:11	callen	I've always thought of people who can't keep warm as seeming reptilian. Works for me.
18:11	technomancy	otherland
18:11	kovas	is that a book?
18:11	hiredman	series
18:12	kovas	will read it to pick up some pointers
18:13	tpope	Raynes: sup
18:14	callen	tpope: sup
18:14	Raynes	tpope: I was curious if you can sign commits with :Gcommit. In the git command line you can do `git commit -S`.
18:14	Raynes	The answer here is usually "try it", but I didn't feel like it.
18:14	callen	Raynes: are you cheating on Emacs?
18:14	tpope	doesn't :Gcommit -S work?
18:14	Raynes	If you think it does then it probably does.
18:14	Raynes	And that's what I was wondering.
18:15	Raynes	I'm not sure how the args to :Gcommit are handled.
18:15	Raynes	callen: I have been for a while. I tend to hop back and forth when I get bored.
18:15	Raynes	callen: The benefit is that I kick ass in both editors, especially emacs with evil-mode.
18:15	callen	Raynes: if you're bored, why not zoidb^H^H^H^H^Hhelp out with revise? :P
18:16	Raynes	Because I'm at work. :P
18:16	rasmusto	Raynes: evil-mode and paredit clash a bit too much :(
18:16	callen	paredit is a bad idea anyway
18:17	Raynes	rasmusto: Sure, if you mean not at all ever.
18:17	technomancy	~guards
18:17	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:17	Raynes	I've never once had a clash between paredit and evil-mode.
18:17	rasmusto	Raynes: oh, well I was trying to learn emacs and paredit (while using evil), and some command clashed
18:18	rasmusto	I'm generalizing a bit too mcuh about the conflicts
18:18	rasmusto	callen: what's wrong with paredit?
18:19	callen	rasmusto: fascist editor mode restrains the will of the people.
18:19	rasmusto	callen: :)
18:19	callen	see, rasmusto gets it.
18:19	Raynes	callen: You'll have to pry paredit from my cold dead hands.
18:19	callen	Raynes: are you a white walker from Game of Thrones?
18:19	rasmusto	Raynes: s/pry/slurp
18:20	callen	am I the only person who doesn't get into trouble with the parens?
18:20	callen	did all those years of non-tool-assisted CL immunize me or something?
18:20	callen	what is wrong with youuuuuuuu
18:20	technomancy	callen: maybe you've trained your brain to stop complaining about performing menial tasks?
18:20	wink	last I asked the common response was I was weird for using stuff like "dd" in vim+clojure
18:21	callen	technomancy: dude. I am the whiniest person in the world about unnecessary schlep. That's highly unlikely.
18:21	rasmusto	callen: I don't get in troble without paredit, but yeah, I don't have to think about parens
18:21	technomancy	callen: I see no other explanation
18:21	callen	technomancy: plausible. I'm still baffled though.
18:22	callen	shriphani: you should implement a Scheme.
18:22	callen	dnolen: agree with me.
18:23	callen	shriphani: a small one.
18:23	wink	callen: does anyone ever agree with you? :)
18:24	wink	yogthos: you might want to refresh luminusweb.net maybe. just pulled to fix a typo that's been fixed already in the repo :P
18:24	callen	wink: all the time. yogthos often does.
18:24	callen	wink: I'm the reason Luminus uses clabango.
18:24	callen	wink: and you don't want to get me started on template libraries >:)
18:25	wink	callen: I really don't. so far I'm happier with clabango than with hiccup. but it's not hiccup's fault I think
18:25	callen	another one bites the dust, hey hey.
18:26	callen	eventually everyone will be using the Clojure Master Web Stack (TM).
18:26	Raynes	callen: I'm going to beat you over the head with a laser.
18:26	callen	seangrove: your website is held hostage by snotty startup founders that will sell you out for ferrari money. Nothing you say is valid.
18:27	callen	Raynes: you're just mad because I sold somebody else's milkshakes.
18:27	rasmusto	callen: only one web-stack per household
18:27	Raynes	My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
18:27	Raynes	Because it's better than yours.
18:27	Raynes	Though admittedly, if you can give a talk for a bloody hour and a half about a templating engine… sigh.
18:27	Raynes	I try so hard to make it not complex, but then people still come out the other side cross eyed.
18:27	wink	rasmusto: wait, what? I'm using 5 webstacks on my server alone.
18:28	callen	Raynes: I can go longer than that.
18:28	callen	I CAN GO ALLLLL NIIIIGHT LOOOOOONG
18:28	Raynes	I wish it was okay to just tell people "Please, don't try to understand how this works. Just learn how to use it and do that."
18:28	rasmusto	wink: fighting the man
18:28	callen	Raynes: unaccepta-burrrr
18:28	wink	Raynes: you hate contributions?
18:28	callen	wink: don't touch his precioussssss
18:29	Raynes	callen: At one point during my talk amalloy was like "C'MON SHOW US WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH IT GOD." trying to get me to shut up about implementation detail.
18:29	callen	LOL
18:29	callen	I legit lol'd IRL
18:29	amalloy	i don't think i called you god. that doesn't sound like me
18:29	Raynes	And then people asked the strangest questions so I officially give up on explaining it to people. I'm just gonna show what you can do with it from now on.
18:29	callen	I should put together a talk on why Clabango is awesome and everything else blows chunks. It'll be 3.5 hours long and end with a lobotomy.
18:30	technomancy	callen: yours or a selected audience member's?
18:30	wink	callen: please fix recursive includes first
18:31	callen	technomancy: entire audience
18:32	callen	wink: capital idea but you shouldn't be using includes that extensively.
18:32	callen	wink: blocks are usually more appropriate. What'd you do?
18:32	wink	callen: wasn't extensively, just an accident with extends and include. it never terminated
18:32	callen	sweet.
18:32	wink	callen: I would've expected some nesting level stop at ~10 or 20 levels- not crash the hvm
18:33	callen	wink: did you document it on the github?
18:33	wink	callen: not really, I fixed the stupid mistake in my templates
18:33	callen	wink: don't tell me you didn't file an issue.
18:33	callen	oh come on dude
18:33	callen	wink: don't make me get my beatin' switch.
18:33	callen	wink: put the repro on the github repo!
18:33	technomancy	callen: "That's cool. You're a cool guy. Hold on a second." (panel 3 of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/4/30/)
18:33	callen	wink: (please?)
18:33	wink	callen: I'll try to reproduce it
18:34	callen	wink: danke schon.
18:34	callen	technomancy: <3
18:34	callen	technomancy: ever quotable.
18:34	callen	technomancy: they're PNW'ers too.
18:34	callen	technomancy: that's some solid PNW solidarity you've got man.
18:34	wink	notice how there's a typo in either panel 1 or 3?
18:35	callen	wink: I think the implication is that the dude was both psychotic and illiterate.
18:35	technomancy	callen: I think the shop in http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/01/17 is a few doors down from one of the coffee shops I frequent
18:36	callen	technomancy: I knew a place like that back home. Made getting Magic TCG stuff excruciating.
18:36	callen	technomancy: "Why would you buy booster packs from that set? That set fucking sucks. You should just play ${THING}"
18:36	wink	lol
18:37	callen	technomancy: "What kind of deck are you even trying to build? That's stupid."
18:37	callen	technomancy: "Why would you buy those booster packs without a deck planned out? Are you a noob?"
18:37	callen	then the noogies and toilet swirlies happen.
18:37	callen	eventually you leave bruised and emotionally scarred with your cards.
18:37	technomancy	callen: like this? http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/
18:38	callen	technomancy: that plus the "runs a gaming/toy shop"
18:38	callen	technomancy: also you are way too good at pulling up PA comics.
18:38	technomancy	callen: for whatever reason indexing on PA is a lot worse than most strips
18:38	callen	It's pretty bad.
18:38	callen	You just need to know the titles.
18:38	technomancy	ohnohrobot.com is my secret weapon for the indie ones
18:38	wink	are these gaming shops that common over there?
18:38	wink	I found having 2 in my town quite luxurious
18:39	callen	wink: what's "over there"?
18:39	callen	wink: is that a slur against westerners?
18:39	wink	callen: america apparently
18:39	callen	wink: you're slurring us. Like a slurry.
18:39	callen	wink: they're common in cities, not as much in smaller towns.
18:39	wink	callen: dunno. generalizing about as much as you think I'd differentiate between westerners and east coast people? :P
18:40	callen	smallest town I know of that had more than one serious gaming place was like 15k pop
18:40	callen	had 2 or 3 at various points
18:40	callen	wink: America has low taxes and low cost of starting a small business, that means random stuff just kinda blossoms all over the place.
18:40	wink	I know I could buy magic and some role playing stuff in one of the big toy stores in the malls. but nothing extraordinary
18:40	callen	wink: that's because we're awesome and American.
18:41	Caligo	is anyone on?
18:41	callen	Caligo: nope
18:41	wink	callen: I do think comics and "gaming" stuff is also more prevalent.
18:41	callen	Caligo: we're all fast asleep. You're talking to our Clojure Powered (TM) NLP robots.
18:42	callen	wink: because MURICA is awesome.
18:42	Caligo	callen: Oh no!!!
18:42	wink	callen: haven't experienced first hand
18:42	callen	Caligo: what do you mean oh no? It means we've made things that pass the turing test. Shit is awesome.
18:42	callen	wink: you should visit. And then never leave.
18:42	callen	Caligo: I'm not sure I'm convinced you're not a well designed bot.
18:42	wink	callen: they usually have something against folks doin just that
18:42	callen	Caligo: how do I know you're not just here to troll with fake botty questions?
18:42	brehaut	you know whats not awesome about america? the cost of international postage.
18:42	brehaut	bastards
18:42	Caligo	callen: but, but robots that pass the turing test -> robot apocolypse
18:43	callen	brehaut: physical goods are for plebs.
18:43	wink	brehaut: goes both ways
18:43	callen	Caligo: maybe, if it was spelled apocalypse
18:43	wink	or let's say.. customs are worse than postgae
18:43	Caligo	callen: that proves, I'm not a bot :)
18:44	brehaut	wink: luckily my customs is only insane and a PITA over about NZD400 value.
18:44	wink	brehaut: I've paid ~15$ for a t-shirt and 15 more for customs. from america to germany
18:44	hiredman	smuggling wombats
18:44	callen	Caligo: bots can make mistakes.
18:44	callen	wink: that's because germany isn't a real country.
18:45	brehaut	i would like a wombat
18:45	Caligo	callen: they can't recognize that they have made a mistake.
18:45	brehaut	those things are hilarious
18:45	callen	brehaut: you can get those?
18:45	dnolen	interesting CLJS perf question http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16641250/clojurescript-map-lookup-slow/16659463#16659463
18:45	callen	brehaut: only thing better than a wombat is a kakapo.
18:45	callen	Best parrot in the world.
18:45	hiredman	http://imgur.com/gallery/Pu8Bry7
18:45	brehaut	callen: sirocco frinstance
18:45	Caligo	what has the clojure irc reduced to?!?!
18:46	callen	Caligo: uhm, a collection of data?
18:46	Caligo	callen: besides that...
18:46	callen	or a final result?
18:46	callen	isn't that what reducers and reduce produce?
18:46	callen	(say it out loud)
18:46	brehaut	hiredman: thats the best kind of bat
18:46	callen	hiredman: OMG THAT IS CUTE
18:47	callen	HOWDOIGETONE HOWDOIGETONE HOWDOIGETONE HOWDOIGETONE HOWDOIGETONE
18:47	rasmusto	hiredman: even that url is cute :)
18:47	brehaut	callen: re:kakapo, kaka and kea are also pretty awesome
18:47	brehaut	just not as rare
18:47	callen	brehaut: are they as sociable though?
18:47	brehaut	callen: hells yes
18:47	callen	brehaut: the appeal of the kakapo and cause for its rarity is the sociability.
18:47	callen	brehaut: REALLY?!
18:47	brehaut	really
18:48	callen	dude I am getting a bird.
18:48	brehaut	kea populations in Arthur's Pass are in trouble because they are way to sociable and people feed them people food (and cars) and its not good for them
18:49	jodaro	heh
18:49	brehaut	haha
18:49	callen	channel is making me laugh too hard today
18:49	brehaut	im not kidding about the cars; kea will rip apart as much of an unattended car as they can and in very little time
18:50	jodaro	wow
18:51	callen	brehaut: that sounds more like an Australian bird than an NZ one.
18:51	brehaut	callen: its not going to kill you
18:51	callen	yeah but if it touches my car I will kill it
18:51	brehaut	it'll destroy your belongings in a very friendly way
18:51	callen	LOL
18:51	callen	brehaut: are you from NZ originally?
18:51	brehaut	im from NZ right now
18:51	callen	oh, you mentioned US postage
18:52	callen	figured that meant US origination.
18:52	brehaut	nope, i get stuff posted to NZ from the US sometimes, but its getting insanely expensive
18:52	callen	blame NZ customs
18:52	brehaut	nope
18:52	brehaut	i mostly dont have to pay NZ customs on it
18:54	brehaut	cost of shipping for gaming books and related stuff has reached prohibitive levels
18:54	brehaut	(its still viable for stompboxes, but only just)
18:55	brehaut	</complaining>
18:55	hiredman	can't you just ship direct from china?
18:56	wink	brehaut: be glad you're not being charged for long-distance irc. that'd be a lot of money right now.
18:56	brehaut	lol
18:56	brehaut	hiredman: not that ive seen
18:57	hiredman	actually I was just reading some forum posts of people in spain complaining about the extra costs of buying go boards from japan -> us importers
18:57	technomancy	time to bring back the silk road
19:00	wink	follow the yellow brick road
19:01	brehaut	thats only for importing wombats
19:05	wink	damn, I think I reinvented a wheel. by lack of rtfm
19:07	gtrak	(recur (rest brick-road))
19:09	callen	wink: in a similar anecdote of being on the slow boat, I finally got a sonicare toothbrush recently. AMAZIIIIING
19:13	jodaro	callen: costco?
19:15	callen	jodaro: kohls
19:20	tieTYT2	if I try to use clojure for SICP, will it mess me up? Is it better to use scheme for that?
19:22	brehaut	you'll have to know enoguh about both languages to translate idioms
19:22	tieTYT2	hrm, sounds like I should just use scheme
19:22	brehaut	,(cons 1 2)
19:22	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
19:22	hyPiRion	Dotted lists aren't existent in Clojure for instance
19:22	tieTYT2	what I hate about that book is the examples are more complex than the material
19:22	Apage43	probably. I tried working through http://greenteapress.com/thinkstats/ in Clojure instead of python
19:23	hyPiRion	...as you just saw
19:23	Apage43	and it took a lot more gumption to both translate the examples -and- work through the text
19:23	rasmusto	who was ranting about 80 column text today? I just turned off colorcolumn in vim and I'm immediately less stressed
19:25	technomancy	._.
19:36	patchwork	I can't get the simplest query to work in clojure.java.jdbc!
19:36	patchwork	(sql/query db ["select * from model"])
19:36	patchwork	works
19:36	patchwork	(sql/query db ["select * from ?" "model"])
19:36	patchwork	fails with "syntax error at or near "$1""
19:36	patchwork	???
19:36	lazybot	patchwork: Oh, absolutely.
19:36	patchwork	I don't have a $1 anywhere!
19:37	callen	patchwork: use Korma.
19:37	callen	patchwork: stop using clojure.java.jdbc
19:37	patchwork	Does no one use clojure.java.jdbc?
19:37	patchwork	I didn't realize
19:37	technomancy	no, that's nonsense
19:37	callen	patchwork: nobody worth listening to.
19:37	brehaut	people use jdbc
19:37	brehaut	lots of people
19:37	technomancy	c.j.jdbc is all I use
19:37	cbp`	I do :/
19:37	callen	they enjoy pain.
19:38	hiredman	you can't use a table name as a parameter like that
19:38	callen	do not listen to those fools.
19:38	brehaut	pain like not having our abstractions leak
19:38	cbp`	I enjoy pain :( It's been said
19:38	callen	I CAN SAAAAAVE YOUUUUU
19:38	brehaut	(well, leak much)
19:38	patchwork	hiredman: How do I parameterize table names then?
19:38	hiredman	patchwork: str or format
19:38	technomancy	surely you're not taking table names from user input?
19:38	patchwork	hiredman: but isn't that the point of parameterized queries?
19:38	brehaut	what could go wrong!
19:39	wink	*possibly
19:39	hiredman	patchwork: depends, evidently whoever came up with jdbc thought parameterizing table names was crazy, but parameterizing column values, etc, was fine
19:39	patchwork	technomancy: I have an api that selects tables based on user input yeah
19:39	patchwork	Is that really that wrong?
19:40	hiredman	technomancy: it is also a pain if you read the table name from some configuration source
19:40	brehaut	hiredman: its not like sql in general was designed to allow reuse or composable expressions
19:40	patchwork	I thought parameterizing queries avoids sql injection?
19:40	wink	not if you're whitelisitng
19:40	technomancy	patchwork: I mean the user input string doesn't go straight into the query, right?
19:40	patchwork	technomancy: No, that is why I am not building strings
19:40	patchwork	I am trying to use clojure.java.jdbc 's parameterized queries
19:40	patchwork	!
19:40	hiredman	brehaut: fair point
19:40	callen	lol ^^
19:40	technomancy	patchwork: in that case the situation parameterized queries are designed to protect you against doesn't apply
19:40	callen	patchwork: use Korma.
19:40	callen	patchwork: Korma users don't have to have these conversations.
19:40	technomancy	so format is perfectly safe
19:41	tieTYT2	brehaut: not a fan of korma?
19:41	brehaut	tieTYT2: not especially
19:41	tieTYT2	brehaut: why's that?
19:41	patchwork	technomancy: I'm curious why? What do parameterized queries protect you from then?
19:41	tieTYT2	i can't stand jpa. I have a feeling i'll see it your way
19:42	patchwork	The only problem I have with korma is it is a bunch of macros and I am composing queries programmatically
19:42	wink	patchwork: hehe, I've bitten by that as well.
19:42	callen	Raynes: tried Jonsi?
19:42	Raynes	I don't know what that word means.
19:42	patchwork	The fact that I can't map or reduce (for instance) with korma prevents me from using it
19:43	wink	patchwork: dunno how deep you dug, but "(-> (select*" helped me make it work instead of (select
19:44	callen	Raynes: artist.
19:44	patchwork	So how do I protect the query from bad table names?
19:44	brehaut	tieTYT2: its an abstraction that i found mostly got in the way. embeding SQL strings turned out to be clearer and easier to work with for me. that is, in my opinion, pretty damning for an abstraction
19:44	bhenry	is there a way to flatten only one level deep?
19:44	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8RZ8TOa4I
19:44	callen	bhenry: been asked before, just google :)
19:44	hiredman	~flatten
19:44	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
19:44	tieTYT2	brehaut: that's how i feel about jpa. I think jpa just delays your issues and doubles them
19:45	brehaut	i dont think im familar with jpa
19:45	trptcolin	&(mapcat identity [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
19:45	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
19:45	tieTYT2	good
19:45	tieTYT2	eg: hibernate, eclipselink, etc.
19:45	brehaut	ah, so bag of hurt
19:46	tieTYT2	yeah, i truly hate it
19:46	brehaut	i have a great loathing of the django ORM
19:46	tieTYT2	i wonder if I'd hate active record
19:46	patchwork	You would
19:46	wink	so much hate
19:47	tieTYT2	trptcolin: why is that better than flatten?
19:47	brehaut	trptcolin: ##(apply concat [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
19:47	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
19:50	trptcolin	tieTYT2: i wouldn't generally say "better", but it certainly seems to do less. from that perspective, brehaut's apply concat does even less, so i think i like it even better
19:51	trptcolin	i wonder if the perf is actually in line with that, but i'm not going to be the one who does a microbenchmark and then gets told they're doing benchmarking wrong ;)
19:51	trptcolin	other than for myself
19:53	tieTYT2	i see
19:53	technomancy	callen: last week's seattle remote-work brag: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/8744331167/
20:48	bbloom	tomoj: reported a bug via github & rich fixed it w/o a jira ticket? glorious.
21:56	callen	technomancy: that is gorgeous ;_;
22:00	tomoj	bbloom: I think I see what you meant now about the problem with maps and zippers
22:01	tomoj	thinking about the cljs group "Zipper for json?" question
22:02	tomoj	I swear I wrote an associative-zip before but it seems to have disappeared.. not sure how it would have worked
22:05	gzmask	hi folks, I m just starting to use compojure and the lack of updated tutorial gets me. here's my code that generating errors: https://gist.github.com/gzmask/5617046
22:08	cbp`	gzmask: move the definition of index-page before the defroutes
22:09	gzmask	cbp`: tried that, still same error
22:10	tomoj	certainly the line number changed? :)
22:11	tomoj	"richever_clj/handler.clj:16:15" ?
22:12	gzmask	tomoj: sorry, the error is now : Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: html5 in this context, compiling:(richever_clj/handler.clj:8:3)
22:13	tomoj	looks like html5 is in hiccup.page
22:13	tomoj	where'd you learn to do (:use compojure.core hiccup.core)? :)
22:14	cbp`	maybe you want to use the macro html
22:14	cbp`	which is in hiccup.core
22:14	tomoj	(:require [hiccup.page :refer [html5 include-css]])
22:14	gzmask	tomoj: https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup says (use 'hiccup.core) so I figured that out myself
22:17	gzmask	tomoj: using your way works. but where in the world can I find such tutorials ?
22:19	Caligo	anyone on?
22:20	tomoj	gzmask: dunno :/
22:20	Caligo	I have a general question: why does map-indexed only take only one function and one collection as arguments? Why doesn't it take multiple collections and effectively reduce?
22:21	tomoj	gzmask: maybe read this though http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/namespaces.html
22:23	tomoj	Caligo: if map-indexed took multiple colls I would expect it to be 'zippy', like map
22:23	tomoj	but that would be kind of weird - (fn [i x y z...]) ?
22:23	tomoj	guess it could make sense
22:27	devn	hello clojurians
22:27	devn	does anyone know if michael klishin is on IRC?
22:29	devn	-OR- does anyone want to tell me why I can search for -> but not for ->> in https://github.com/devn/getclojure/blob/master/src/getclojure/search.clj
22:30	devn	this is an elastisch question slash a general search engine question. i assume the default query-string parser is the problem
22:33	jcromartie	devn: I would guess that it's an Elasticsearch query limitation
22:34	tomoj	I'd think there should be an escape function in elastisch
22:34	danielglauser	dakrone: Anything off the top of your head? ^^^
22:38	devn	jcromartie: my analyzer and what-not might be the problem
22:38	devn	at this point though I have to be honest, the docs from elastisch and from elasticsearch combined haven't made me comfortable about what im doing there with my custom analyzer, tokenizer, filter, etc.
22:39	devn	the elasticsearch folks rightly punt because it's not a pure problem (it uses a library)
22:43	technomancy	devn: that's a lucene issue
22:43	technomancy	but yeah, you want a field that's not analyzed
22:44	technomancy	well, it's a lucene feature that you'd have to figure out how ES exposes
22:45	technomancy	aw geez; I have local changes that implemnet this in clucy that I haven't pushed
22:45	technomancy	=\
22:53	technomancy	oh nice my changes are all broken due to an underlying shift to lucene 4
22:57	devn	:\
22:57	devn	i have new fish to fry now
22:57	devn	i deployed to heroku and broke everything
22:57	technomancy	h releases:rollback
22:59	callen	Raynes: http://osrc.dfm.io/raynes
22:59	callen	technomancy: http://osrc.dfm.io/technomancy
22:59	callen	it didn't even call me a Clojure programmer :(
22:59	devn	if only i hadn't decided to re-seed my db in the process
22:59	callen	I think I need to have a good cry.
23:01	devn	same
23:02	technomancy	heh; "similar to travis"
23:03	spoon16	seancorfield: I've got a clojure/java.jdbc question for you
23:05	callen	"Chris has contributed to repositories in 14 different languages. In particular, Chris is a serious JavaScript expert with a surprisingly broad knowledge of Clojure as well."
23:05	callen	okay I feel a little better.
23:05	technomancy	callen: I'm still furious at coderwall for giving me a C++ badge just because I had a copy of ZNC that wasn't properly forked
23:06	technomancy	if they were in the UK that would be a libel lawsuit
23:07	callen	technomancy: hahahahahahahaha
23:07	callen	technomancy: that's hilarious.
23:08	callen	technomancy: the sad part is it would be fairly trivial to sift out the meaningful work from the original work
23:08	callen	from the trivial work*
23:08	callen	especially in terms of originality
23:32	seancorfield	spoon16: sure, what's the Q?
23:34	spoon16	if I have a - (dash) in a column name and try to run a query insert/select it constructs a query missing the backticks ` around the column name
23:34	spoon16	and the query fails
23:50	Raynes	callen: This is great, thanks.
23:54	seancorfield	spoon16: you need to specify a quoting strategy then
23:55	seancorfield	there are examples in the docs but something like (entities (quoted \`) (query db (select * :table (where {:id 42}))))
23:55	hiredman	fun fact related to sql quoting: ssl is a reserved word or whatever for mysql, so you need to quote it
23:58	spoon16	seanaway: thanks
23:59	seanaway	np, i'll be back later if you have more questions