#clojure – 2013-03-26

2013-03-26

00:01	xeqi	tieTYT2: line 7, ((client/get ...)) will attempt to call the result of (client/get ...) as a function
00:01	tieTYT2	ohhh crap
00:01	tieTYT2	thanks
00:01	tieTYT2	i wish that bubbled up to tell me "line 7"
00:02	tieTYT2	i thought it was deep down in the clojure libraries
00:02	xeqi	usually there is a longer stack trace, sometimes they get eaten, not sure if its lein or a jvm flag bein set
00:02	xeqi	.. is it (pst) that will print out the last stacktrace?
00:03	tieTYT2	seems to
00:03	tieTYT2	that is so weird
00:03	tieTYT2	how does it cut off the top?
00:03	tieTYT2	that being the case, (pst) is essential. Thanks
00:06	xeqi	tieTYT2: what version of lein are you using?
00:08	tieTYT2	2.0.0
00:08	xeqi	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1025
00:08	xeqi	has something you can put in the project.clj at the bottom to fix it eating stacktraces
00:10	tieTYT2	thanks
01:28	tieTYT2	why am i getting this error? http://pastebin.com/L9iUfJHX
01:30	tieTYT2	oh...
01:30	tieTYT2	i think i know why
01:30	tieTYT2	java problem, not clojure problem
01:38	tieTYT2	anyone know if it's a bad idea to program with a cygwin repl open while you write your real code in the intellij La Clojure library?
02:08	tieTYT2	what's a more idiomatic way to write this code in clojure? (defn img-as-file-on-fs [url] (.getAbsolutePath (File/createTempFile "img" (str "." (FilenameUtils/getExtension (.getAbsolutePath (io/file url)))) (io/file "images/"))))
02:10	tomoj	only thing I can suggest is to give names to more things
02:10	tieTYT2	you mean like in a let?
02:10	tomoj	I can't really imagine what kind of idiom you're thinking of..
02:10	tomoj	right
02:11	tieTYT2	ok i've been doing that in other places, let me try with this
02:11	tieTYT2	thanks
02:11	tomoj	took me a while to understand what it was doing because I didn't know File/createTempFile
02:11	tomoj	but..
02:11	tomoj	that doesn't mean you should name things
02:11	tomoj	otherwise you'd have to name everything you ever passed to a function :)
02:12	tomoj	my first thought was that it is perfectly idiomatic
02:13	tieTYT2	this is my change: (defn img-as-file-on-fs [url]
02:13	tieTYT2	(let [extension (str "." (FilenameUtils/getExtension (.getAbsolutePath (io/file url)))) output-dir (io/file "images/")] (.getAbsolutePath (File/createTempFile "img" extension output-dir))))
02:15	tieTYT2	i'm surprised it's idomatic. it seems clumsy to me. It took a while to figure out how I was getting class cast exceptiosn
02:16	tomoj	meh https://www.refheap.com/paste/e14264e41cbe02e168f90f6b0
02:16	tieTYT2	here's an idea for a library I just had. Something that merges the functionality of File, FileUtils and FilenameUtils into one protocol. Is that a good idea or is it a solution looking for a problem?
02:17	tieTYT2	hrm I need to learn about that -> and ->> thing
02:18	tomoj	you don't mean one defprotocol right?
02:18	tieTYT2	one defprotocol, but File and String would be an impl
02:18	tieTYT2	(i've never made a protocol, so I don't remember the exact names
02:19	tomoj	oh, like IFileNamed or something?
02:20	tieTYT2	I suppose. All I know is I don't want to be using any of those static or File methods in there
02:21	tomoj	well you can define wrapper functions, I dunno what protocol would make sense
02:21	tieTYT2	ah true
02:21	tieTYT2	so maybe a library full of wrapper functions
02:21	tomoj	I don't have an answer to your actual question "good idea.."
02:22	tieTYT2	that's ok. I'll learn clojure more before I revisit it
02:22	tieTYT2	there's this awesome haskell book that's free called Learn You A Haskell. I wish there was one like that for clojure
02:24	tomoj	well, somebody bought the domain
02:26	tieTYT2	not loading in my browser
02:29	arrdem	tomoj: learn you a clojure?
02:29	arrdem	alejandro gonzlez apparently... learnyouaclojure.com
02:29	tomoj	yeah
02:30	tieTYT2	oh, well different guy wrote the haskell one
02:30	tomoj	cloju.re is also parked
02:31	tomoj	but not learnyouacloju.re..
02:41	Raynes	tieTYT2: I'm trying. In my not very copious spare time.
03:00	tieTYT2	Raynes: good luck
03:19	jaimef	(get "/hello/:a/:b/:c" "Hello to #{a} and #{b} and #{c}") ;; now that's sinatra like
03:39	tomoj	jaimef: what's that from?
03:39	jaimef	thinatra
03:40	jaimef	sorry wrong channel
03:40	tomoj	ah, didn't seem very clojuresque :)
03:40	jaimef	it's very non-lisp despite being elisp
05:22	Sonderblade	what's the best clojure library for writing a parser? there are to many to choose from :p
06:49	MikeSeth	type hints for method arguments are only a performance optimization, correct? they're not meant to specify which kind of argument a methond expects?
06:52	tomoj	not sure what you mean by "specify"
06:52	tomoj	they don't act like argument type preconditions (which would throw an error if the type was wrong at runtime)
06:52	tomoj	not sure what you mean by "method" either
06:58	ambrosebs	MikeSeth: do you mean adding hints to specify which overload a method should dispatch to?
06:59	ambrosebs	I'm not actually sure if it helps with ambiguous methods?
06:59	ambrosebs	But it basically helps load a specific method at compile time rather than relying on reflection at runtime.
07:03	tomoj	ambrosebs: btw, is something like core.typed necessary to know as much about the types as the compiler?
07:03	tomoj	or is all the tag inference the compiler does also represented in jvm.tools.analyzer output?
07:04	ambrosebs	tomoj: core.typed currently just uses the analyzer output. core.typed checks whichever method is loaded by the compiler.
07:05	ambrosebs	tomoj: it's a good question whether/how easily we can do better.
07:06	tomoj	hmm, I'm not actually sure what my question is
07:09	tomoj	oh
07:09	tomoj	when I looked at some analyzer output before it looked like :tag wasn't useful
07:09	tomoj	but I think I was just looking at it wrong
07:11	ambrosebs	tomoj: :tag isn't useful beyond pre-loading interop forms.
07:13	tomoj	right, I was considering making it useful for something else
07:13	tomoj	via a macro that looks an analyzer output
07:13	tomoj	but I think that doesn't really make any sense unless you just do core.typed
07:15	ambrosebs	tomoj: what for?
07:19	tomoj	do you know applicative functors?
07:22	tomoj	another way to describe it I think is the problem of determining serious/trivial for a cps transform
07:22	tomoj	currently I plan to just mark the serious expressions (abusing @ or ~, or creating a new special form inside the macro)
07:23	tomoj	but I'm wondering if erring towards assuming serious, with some rudimentary type inference (like the compiler's?), could be good enough
07:26	tomoj	like if something is tagged ^String I don't need to cps there
07:26	ambrosebs	tomoj: I don't know much about either topic.
07:28	tomoj	well, anyway, it looks like the analyzer output has exactly what I thought it should :)
07:29	tomoj	e.g. in (fn [^String a b] (let [c a] c)), inside the body of the let you can go back up to the param and get the tag
07:30	tomoj	though :tag is not automatically inferred it seems
07:34	clgv	oh clojure's maps have much better usability than comon lisp's ones...
07:35	clgv	(setf (gethash :a ht) 1) is pretty ugly compared to `assoc` ...
07:40	tomoj	I implemented the curry example from the expansion-passing style paper
07:40	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/e5e1a4d1c5df0f9ec6c283e4f
07:40	tomoj	not too happy — 1) do we really need magroexpanding? 2) gotta be a better interface?
07:40	clgv	defmagro? :O
07:47	tomoj	hmm, was some nonsense in the docstring :). https://www.refheap.com/paste/50104bba92033ed0889af0ff6
07:47	tomoj	think it's also buggy, but.. in the end of the EPS paper they mention passing around a syntax table along with the expand fn
07:48	tomoj	that would bring our arity to 4 since we have the env as well
07:48	tomoj	maybe pass around a dispatch-map or something..?
08:12	kalasjohnny2000	I have a $lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen up and running, and my ns looks like (ns something.else (:use [one.dispatch :only [react-to delete-reaction fire]]) but still can't (fire :hello) in my cljs-repl.
08:13	kalasjohnny2000	(one.dispatch/fire :hello) works, though. And other imports seems to work as well.
08:14	kalasjohnny2000	or no, they don't, not in the repl.
08:14	kalasjohnny2000	I go to the namespace with (in-ns 'something.else)
08:27	tomoj	kalasjohnny2000: that used to happen to me
08:27	tomoj	it recently started working
08:27	tomoj	I thought I remembered some change somewhere that caused it to start working, but can't find it now
08:28	tomoj	I don't use cljsbuild's repl-listen, though, I use `lein repl` with piggieback
08:28	tomoj	but I can't reproduce your problem with repl-listen either
08:28	tomoj	(I'm on clojurescript master, but dunno if that's why)
09:13	TimMc	Where's a good channel to bug people about monads? I'm working through some tutorials.
09:16	borkdude	TimMc maybe #haskell?
09:20	TimMc	They'll throw random symbols at me!
09:21	Iceland_jack	TimMc: I can answer some questions, but the monads themselves are probably more impressive than what monads are
09:24	Anderkent	technomancy: any way to silence lein output when using `lein run` ? I.e. stuff like 'Retrieving lib-name.pom from clojars'
09:28	TimMc	,(for [[s v] (ns-publics 'clojure.core) :let [d (:doc (meta v))] :when (and d (re-find #"DEPRECATED" d))] s)
09:28	clojurebot	(add-classpath replicate agent-errors clear-agent-errors)
09:35	TimMc	Iceland_jack: Basically, my only question is: Isn't a monad really more like a quesadilla?
09:35	TimMc	(I think I've actually confused myself enough for today, and should let this stuff churn in the back of my mind for a bit.)
09:36	Iceland_jack	If you have real questions feel free to ask me in PM.
09:36	borkdude	Monad is more like plumbing things together, so instead of passing water in and out of functions you return the hose
09:37	borkdude	Here is a photograph of a programmer working on some monadic stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plumber_at_work.jpg
09:39	TimMc	Iceland_jack: Thanks, I appreciate it.
09:45	TimMc	Oh, possible insight: I should not be trying to understand a given domonad form as composition of domonad + some monad, but instead as a monolithic form. E.g. clojure.core/for instead of domonad + sequence-m.
09:46	jweiss	I'm trying to write when-some-let. It's like when-let, but the condition is when any of the bindings evaluate to logical true, the body is executed with the bindings. i'd like to have destructuring work too, but looks like calling destructure directly will not work. (for example it binds the whole map to a gensym behind the scenes)
09:47	jweiss	i thought of just walking all the left hand side expressions to extract symbols, but i don't see any functions available that will traverse inside maps.
09:49	TimMc	jweiss: You can introduce intermediate bindings and rely on let to do the magic.
09:50	jweiss	TimMc: sorry i'm not sure i follow
09:50	TimMc	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.5.1/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L1684
09:50	TimMc	Each binding in your when-some-let becomes two bindings.
09:52	TimMc	(when-some-let [a 1, [b] [5 6]] ...) => (let [t0 1, a t0, t1 [5 6], [b] t1] (when (and t0 t1) ...))
09:53	TimMc	t0 and t1 would be gensyms, here.
09:54	jweiss	TimMc: ah, but what I really want is for the condition to be (or a b). that's different than (or t0 t1)
09:54	jweiss	IOW i want to or all the bound symbols
09:54	borkdude	could it be that java.lang.Integer was the default before instead of Longs for int literals?
09:54	TimMc	Er, right. (or t0 t1)
09:54	jweiss	b is not the same as t1
09:55	borkdude	or I have never really evaluated the code that's here in front of me
09:55	TimMc	jweiss: Oh, so you want something different from how when-let works, I see.
09:57	jweiss	i'd want (when-some-let [{:keys [a b]} {:c 1}] [a b]) to return nil
09:58	jweiss	,(when-let [{:keys [a b]} {:c 1}] [a b])
09:58	clojurebot	[nil nil]
09:59	jweiss	only way i can think to do this is walk the LHS expressions to extract symbols, but i can't even find a way to descend into {:keys [a b]} without rolling my own
09:59	jweiss	flatten and postwalk won't do it
10:00	TimMc	You just want all symbols in an expression?
10:01	jweiss	TimMc: yeah i think so
10:02	TimMc	,(filter symbol? (tree-seq coll? identity '{:keys [a b [c]]}))
10:02	clojurebot	(a b c)
10:02	jweiss	ah right, tree-seq :)
10:02	TimMc	That's a quick and dirty approach, but it might be all you need.
10:02	jweiss	(inc TimMc)
10:02	lazybot	⇒ 36
10:02	borkdude	can someone explain what the var "unquote" is about? can you use it instead of ~?
10:02	jweiss	yeah, i think for my purposes that will work fine, thanks!
10:03	jweiss	,(let [x 1] `(unquote x))
10:03	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote sandbox/x)
10:04	jweiss	,(let [x 1] `(~x))
10:04	clojurebot	(1)
10:04	jweiss	hm that is not quite the same
10:04	jweiss	,(let [x 1] `((unquote x)))
10:04	clojurebot	((clojure.core/unquote sandbox/x))
10:07	jjttjj`	is there any particular reason it's a bad idea in laser to use its select function to select a subset of the html document you want to transform, like you can in enlive? so you can create multiple templates from multiple html files?
10:11	borkdude	is ~ better explained as evaluation or substitution?
10:12	TimMc	borkdude: Substitution. It's not so much evaluation as exemption from not being evaluated.
10:12	TimMc	Or perhaps injection.
10:13	TimMc	,'~x
10:13	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote x)
10:20	tyler	brain asplode today: code as data is neat, but the real benefit i find myself having is that coding with data naturally comes from that paradigm
10:21	jtoy	I found that one library, cld messes with my logging, it hides it all or something, normally if i dont include thts library i see all of stdout in my repl. is there a way i can fix this?
10:29	borkdude	Is it safe to say that the primary reason for sexps being used is macro support?
10:34	scottj	borkdude: sexps predate macros
10:34	borkdude	scottj ok, so it is not safe to say.
10:34	scottj	borkdude: idk :)
10:36	tbaldridge	scottj: read up on fexprs, they existed before macros, and are more flexible, normally at a performance cost
10:37	tbaldridge	scottk: fexprs are basically macros that run at run-time.
10:37	tbaldridge	they were discontinued in the 70's and macros were invented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr
10:42	borkdude	what part of clojure does macroexpansion, the reader or the compiler?
10:42	dnolen	borkdude: compiler
10:43	dnolen	borkdude: though macroexpansion is after read and before actual compilation
10:43	scottj	tbaldridge: interesting
10:43	borkdude	tbaldridge indeed interesting, tnx for bringing that up
10:43	borkdude	dnolen tnx
10:44	hyPiRion	tbaldridge: Hmm, that's fancy. I know Paul Graham wanted runtime macros for Arc, but didn't know they were studied and "out in the wild".
10:46	tbaldridge	hyPirRion: yeah, fexprs really don't work well with compiled lisps (like Clojure). I do wonder sometimes if a tracing JIT (like PyPy) couldn't make these viable again. But I haven't found a "must have" use case for fexprs yet.
10:47	pjstadig	fexprs are a bad idea, and were abandoned for a reason
10:47	pjstadig	supposedly John Shutt has reconceived them in the kernel language to make the viable, but not everyone is on board with his work
10:48	hyPiRion	One "concern" would be that people would overuse fexps, but I can see places where they could be useful
10:48	jweiss	any nrepl.el users know how to do the equivalent of slime-eval-last-expression in the repl? C-x C-e does it in a source file but not in the repl.
10:48	pjstadig	one of the big problems with fexprs was dynamic scoping, which isn't really an issue anymore, but there were other problems
10:48	hyPiRion	not sure if the pros outweight the cons though, I haven't really thought much about it
10:49	number36	can someone tell me
10:49	number36	what could this mean ?
10:49	number36	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
10:49	number36	i am solving 4clojure problems
10:49	number36	if it help
10:49	pjstadig	number36: you have an extra closing paren somewhere
10:49	number36	pjstadig thank you
10:50	jweiss	ok wow, could it be as simple as just binding nrepl-eval-last-expression? wonder why that isn't the default
10:52	jcromartie	I am trying to get out of OOP mode
10:53	jcromartie	I keep thinking in terms of superclasses
10:53	jcromartie	like, oh I should be able to inherit this-or-that
10:53	jcromartie	and then override
10:53	Ember-	composition over inheritance my friend :)
10:53	Ember-	even in the oop world
10:53	jcromartie	indeed, but I'm still getting the hang of it
10:53	jcromartie	like, I am working on a data model
10:53	jcromartie	I implemented one model namespace
10:54	jcromartie	now when I go to implement another I find it's just copy/paste and find/replace
10:54	jcromartie	I think I'll allow that to happen once but then it's time to abstract
10:54	TimMc	scottj: Nonsense, macros predate upon sexps! (Oh, it's a homonym. :-P)
10:55	TimMc	This is what happens when you're married to a biologist.
10:55	jcromartie	so I'm thinking I need something that provides basic CRUD on a collection with a validator function right?
10:56	jcromartie	either way. I should just make it work first, add tests, then refactor
11:03	jcromartie	multimethods to the rescue?
11:13	jtoy	I have a fn in a namespace defined as: (defn is_american? [json] (eval (user_json_query "(is_american? json)" "find_all_americans"))) when i test it, it says is_american? cant be found, which makes me think it is using the namespace from the repl instead of from the namespace the code is in
11:13	jtoy	is there a way I can make this read form the namespace of the file it is in instead of the repl?
11:19	jcromartie	jtoy: your repl has a current namespace too… by default it's 'user, so either change it with in-ns or require or use your namespace
11:20	jcromartie	that is, change it with "in-ns", or else import your namespace with "require" or "use"
11:20	corecode	is there a way to send an expression/buffer to nrepl, so that expression and result appear there?
11:25	DaReaper5	i am having an issue with clj-time
11:26	DaReaper5	.toDate seems to be off by 1 day
11:26	DaReaper5	(.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01")
11:26	DaReaper5	how do i use the clj bot?
11:28	DaReaper5	hello?
11:28	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline DaReaper5
11:28	DaReaper5	hu clojurebot
11:28	DaReaper5	hi*
11:28	DaReaper5	how do i use you
11:28	DaReaper5	-help
11:28	DaReaper5	:P
11:28	bbloom	,(+ 5 10)
11:28	nDuff	,(.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01")
11:28	clojurebot	15
11:28	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:28	nDuff	,(.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01"))
11:28	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clj-time.format>
11:28	bbloom	&(- 20 3)
11:28	lazybot	⇒ 17
11:29	DaReaper5	dam
11:29	DaReaper5	so i cant use the bot
11:31	nDuff	Hrm. With clj-time being a wrapper around JODATime, I'd be surprised if its logic were actually broken.
11:31	nDuff	Less surprised if it had some unintuitive behaviors relating to time zones and such.
11:32	Ember-	I'm 99.9% certain that clj-time isn't broken due the reasons nDuff just said
11:32	DaReaper5	oh god im wrong
11:32	DaReaper5	its something weirder
11:32	Ember-	joda-time is way too production proved
11:33	DaReaper5	map2(java.util.HashMap. {"date" (.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01"))})
11:33	DaReaper5	that causes the issue
11:33	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...also, that first code gives me back #inst "2012-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00", which is what I'd expect.
11:33	DaReaper5	yes
11:34	DaReaper5	{"date" (.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01"))}
11:34	Ember-	I'd look at that map2 function whatever it does
11:34	nDuff	{"date" #inst "2012-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"} <- also looks normal.
11:34	DaReaper5	and the resulting HashMap have different date values
11:34	nDuff	What's map2?
11:34	DaReaper5	map2 is the issue
11:34	DaReaper5	its a hashmap
11:34	DaReaper5	do you get an issue with java.util.HashMap. ?
11:34	nDuff	DaReaper5: Can you provide a reproducer?
11:34	Ember-	why not just use hash-map ?
11:35	DaReaper5	map2(java.util.HashMap. map1) is my current way of converting to a hashmap that java can use
11:35	Ember-	using java.util.HashMap is kinda dangerous in clojure anyway since it is mutable
11:36	Ember-	oh, java interop
11:36	DaReaper5	ya interop
11:36	nDuff	DaReaper5: This "map2" is not a standard library function.
11:36	nDuff	DaReaper5: Where do you get it from?
11:36	DaReaper5	nDuff sorry map2 is a variable name
11:36	DaReaper5	in a let
11:36	Ember-	but doesn't java take clojure maps just fine?
11:36	Ember-	imho clojure maps implement java.util.Map
11:37	nDuff	DaReaper5: (java.util.HashMap. (hash-map "date" (.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01")))) <- looks fine to me.
11:37	Ember-	and due to that you can just pass clojure maps for java code
11:37	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...also, what Ember said. Unless you're using a Java library that _really_ requires a mutable map...
11:37	Ember-	if your java side of things takes java.util.HashMap as parameter then it's time to change it to accept java.util.Map
11:38	Ember-	there is absolutely no reason to force HashMap as parameter
11:38	DaReaper5	but why would it be changing the value?
11:38	nDuff	Ember-: ...I _could_ see a sufficiently evil, poorly-designed API mutating maps that it's given rather than only using them as input.
11:39	nDuff	DaReaper5: Have you demonstrated that "changing the value" in a way that anyone other than you can reproduce?
11:39	Ember-	nDuff: yeah, but there is still no _reasonable_ reason for that :)
11:39	nDuff	DaReaper5: A standalone, self-contained reproducer would be helpful here.
11:39	Ember-	that's just plain ugly
11:39	DaReaper5	what date is returned for you when you execute this:
11:39	DaReaper5	map2(java.util.HashMap. {"date" (.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01"))})
11:40	DaReaper5	that reporduces it for me
11:40	Ember-	and what is the implementation of map2
11:40	nDuff	DaReaper5: that isn't code that can be run standing alone!
11:40	nDuff	DaReaper5: It requires an enclosing let, if nothing else.
11:40	DaReaper5	(println (java.util.HashMap. {"date" (.toDate (clj-time.format/parse (clj-time.format/formatters :year-month-day) "2012-01-01"))}) )
11:40	Ember-	if map2 uses map internally then you should be aware that map returns a lazy sequence
11:40	nDuff	Ahh. Now I'm seeing it. #<HashMap {date=Sat Dec 31 18:00:00 CST 2011}>
11:40	DaReaper5	ya
11:40	nDuff	...yup, calling this a time zone issue.
11:40	DaReaper5	wierd
11:41	nDuff	When it's being generated by the Clojure printer, it's UTC
11:41	nDuff	here it's being printed in CST
11:41	Ember-	ah true
11:41	nDuff	so it's exactly the same time, just represented two different ways.
11:41	DaReaper5	haha
11:41	DaReaper5	so i have to specify the tiem zone some how?
11:41	Ember-	LocalDateTime in joda time
11:41	Ember-	has no time zone information in it
11:42	Ember-	in clj-time I think the function is local-date-time (duh)
11:42	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...only if you really want to. I mean, the outputs are unambiguous as they are.
11:42	DaReaper5	nDuff used in an sql query it does not take into consideration the time zone it hink
11:42	DaReaper5	think*
11:42	nDuff	DaReaper5: By the way, you can reproduce this without using clj-time at all.
11:42	Ember-	makes life easier when you don't have to take time zones into account but they are there for a reason
11:43	nDuff	,(println (java.util.HashMap. {"date" #inst "2012-01-01"}))
11:43	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
11:43	Ember-	aww
11:43	nDuff	&(println (java.util.HashMap. {"date" #inst "2012-01-01"}))
11:43	lazybot	⇒ #<HashMap {date=Sat Dec 31 16:00:00 PST 2011}> nil
11:43	DaReaper5	ha
11:44	tbaldridge	lazybot: you are less secure it seems
11:44	DaReaper5	hmmm so how should i go about this
11:45	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...so, JDBC actually _does_ specify behavior around timezones.
11:46	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...see the javadoc at http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/sql/PreparedStatement.html#setTimestamp%28int,%20java.sql.Timestamp,%20java.util.Calendar%29
11:46	DaReaper5	actually it might be displaying right
11:46	DaReaper5	used right***
11:46	DaReaper5	in sql
11:46	DaReaper5	but it is displaying wrong in my report
11:47	DaReaper5	should i do time zone compensation on my display side?
11:47	DaReaper5	(i am building a report from the data)
11:48	DaReaper5	... i guess i need to write some java code to do it on the reporting side
11:48	nDuff	DaReaper5: clj-time gives you helpers to specify the timezone to use.
11:49	DaReaper5	even if i do not specify it, shouldnt it be consistent?
11:50	nDuff	DaReaper5: Sure.
11:50	DaReaper5	but its not
11:50	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...Sure it is, within each printer.
11:50	DaReaper5	my printer is showing 2 different values
11:51	DaReaper5	depending on the data structure it is in
11:51	nDuff	Right, because the HashMap thing doesn't delegate to the Clojure printer
11:51	nDuff	but does its own thing.
11:51	nDuff	...but why would that matter for reporting?
11:51	nDuff	You're not going to put a HashMap's representation into a report, or at least I'd hope not.
11:51	DaReaper5	my report says today's date is the 31st when i wanted the 1st
11:52	DaReaper5	the hash map provides parameters to a jasper report
11:52	DaReaper5	one of those parameters is the day of the request
11:52	jcromartie	why does the compiler choke on this code: (throw (Exception. "cannot save invalid object"))
11:52	jcromartie	if I run that in the REPL it works fine
11:52	nDuff	Okay. Then you need to look into how Jasper handles times.
11:52	DaReaper5	ya
11:52	nDuff	That's not a printer thing at all.
11:52	DaReaper5	gah
11:52	nDuff	...and Jasper is presumably going to do the default Java thing
11:52	Sonderblade	what emacs mode(s) do you use when coding in clojure? currently using nrepl but it is very flaky
11:52	nDuff	...and default to the local timezone
11:52	nDuff	(which isn't UTC, hence, the 31st)
11:53	nDuff	err, isn't UTC in your case.
11:53	DaReaper5	so i should specify in my parse that i want the local time zone
11:53	DaReaper5	... possibly
11:53	jcromartie	Sonderblade: I have kind of given up on nREPL mode for now… just use clojure-mode and a lein repl most of the time
11:53	jcromartie	along with midje autotest
11:53	ppppaul	jcromartie, why why why?
11:54	DaReaper5	nDuff do you know how do do a parse of "2012-01-21", specifying time zone?
11:54	ppppaul	what is flaky about nrepl Sonderblade
11:54	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...it's only right there in the clj-time README.
11:54	jcromartie	ppppaul: well for one, I can't disable the broken color output from midje autotest.
11:55	ppppaul	oh, i've never used midje
11:55	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...What's the actual business logic? Are your reports _really_ supposed to be operating on UTC, or on local time?
11:55	jcromartie	ppppaul: and the problems with output from other threads that make getting output from Jetty rather a pain
11:55	nDuff	DaReaper5: ie. should something happening at 11:00PM UTC on that day be included in that year's report, or the next one?
11:55	Sonderblade	ppppaul: the longer the nrepl buffer the slower it goes, if you add a dependency you need to restart emacs otherwise nrepl won't see the change
11:55	jcromartie	i.e. in any other context, (println ….) works, but not in a compojure/Jetty handler in nREPL in Emacs
11:56	ppppaul	jcromartie, if logging is an issue you may be interested in https://github.com/hoytech/Log-Defer
11:56	DaReaper5	nDuff: date range is provides for the search, as well as todays date. Those values are used int he sql query and also displayed
11:56	DaReaper5	they are displayng wrong
11:56	nDuff	DaReaper5: Wrong -- they're displayed correctly.
11:56	DaReaper5	i have not checked if the data is wrong
11:56	jcromartie	Sonderblade: you can use nrepl-restart to get the (preumably Leiningen) dependency
11:56	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...rather, they're displayed correctly _for local time_
11:56	ppppaul	jcromartie, i used spyscope for debug printing in emacs
11:56	nDuff	DaReaper5: ...so, they accurately reflect (in local time) what your database is including in its search.
11:57	DaReaper5	nDuff then i need to make sure that clj-time is parsing in local time
11:57	nDuff	DaReaper5: Exactly! And the clj-time readme discusses that.
11:58	Sonderblade	jcromartie: yes but that leaves the old jvm running so after a few restarts i still need to kill all dangling jvms and restart emacs
11:58	jcromartie	Sonderblade: dang, didn't notice that
11:58	jcromartie	that's pretty bad
11:58	jcromartie	what about nrepl-quit first?
11:58	Sonderblade	this is on windows
11:59	nDuff	DaReaper5: (clj-time.local/to-local-date-time "2012-01-01")
12:00	Sonderblade	haven't tried it yet, but at this point i'd rather have something more mature than nREPL
12:00	DaReaper5	nDuff yupp testing that now
12:01	DaReaper5	i did not realize before that clj-time.local/to-local-date-time could be used to parse a string
12:01	DaReaper5	thanks again nDuff
12:02	DaReaper5	i think my report is near ready for production now
12:02	tgoossens	I'm preparing a talk on "why clojure was created". How would you respond to the question: "Isn't programming in clojure a step backwards towards procedural programming ?"
12:02	tgoossens	*scratch towards :p
12:04	nDuff	tgoossens: My first attempt might be something like this: "Programming in Clojure is _less_ procedural than most other languages; the use of lazy, functional idioms lets you focus on your data, not on operations done to it. [Examples here]"
12:05	ystael	tgoossens: The dogma of object orientation is a misguided dream which pulls us relentlessly away from simple expressions of computation, and by chaining operations to objects, imprisons us forever in the shackles of mutable state.
12:05	jcromartie	seems like defprotocol and deftype result in a lot less code than multimethods
12:05	ystael	</purple>
12:06	borkdude	another thing that comes up often: why does clojure promote programming with naked/basic datastructures instead of your own datatypes? if this works better, why aren't people passing hashmaps instead of objects in java?
12:07	jcromartie	borkdude: obviously because that doesn't always work better
12:07	ystael	borkdude: Alan Perlis had a good aphorism about this: "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures."
12:08	tgoossens	who is alan perlis?
12:08	borkdude	tgoossens you have this quote in your presentation ;)
12:08	tgoossens	borkdude: i know. And i like the quote. But i"m trying to find out more about the guy himself
12:09	tgoossens	and why it would be legitimate to put it into my talk :)
12:09	borkdude	jcromartie can you name an example where it doesn't fit?
12:09	ppppaul	Sonderblade, i don't add dependencies much. i clear the buffer when it gets slow. i don't see how these are really big issues. i'm interested in knowing about your workarounds or solutions.
12:09	tgoossens	borkdude: java is a statically typed language. Maybe that is one part of the puzzle
12:10	bbloom	tgoossens: surely the wikipedia article is a good starting point for that question :-)
12:10	jcromartie	tgoossens: the fact is that in Clojure you have the option of usng the great datastructure-oriented facilities (map/reduce/filter, the seq abstraction, destructuring, etc.)
12:10	tgoossens	bbloom: obiously, but maybe you know some anekdotes ;)
12:11	jcromartie	tgoossens: OR using things like powerful ad-hoc inheritance (multimethods) or hiding the data structure entirely (deftype)
12:11	tgoossens	(i'm going to play the role of the guy who asked the question)
12:12	tgoossens	But i want to encapsulate irrelevant information, maps don't allow me to do that
12:12	jcromartie	oops
12:12	jcromartie	that was borkdude
12:12	jcromartie	tgoossens: encapsulate for who? whose sake?
12:12	jcromartie	i.e. if you hide it or don't, who cares?
12:13	jcromartie	and if you do care, then use deftype
12:14	tgoossens	"doesn't that pollute my interface? And what if i want to change the underlying representation. Without getters i cannot do that" (i'm still playing the role of the questioner)
12:14	Sonderblade	ppppaul: for me, 2 screenfuls is enough to cause nrepl to lag alot
12:14	borkdude	(doc deftype) ;;=>
12:14	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); Alpha - subject to change (deftype name [fields] options specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the give
12:14	jcromartie	:) got it
12:14	borkdude	(deftype name [fields] options specs*)
12:14	borkdude	Currently there are no options.
12:14	borkdude	lol
12:14	ppppaul	Sonderblade, what platform?
12:15	ppppaul	Sonderblade, i can handle 10-30 before i need to clear the buffer
12:15	nDuff	tgoossens: "The conventional approach in Clojure is to provide functions that operate on your data -- the role is very much akin to that of getters in Java"
12:15	borkdude	tgoossens you are playing devil's advocate, which is good, because I get the same questions from colleagues who frown upon clojure because it's not OO
12:16	tgoossens	"Because making maps is like making my fields public. And then what if I choose a wrong representation. Then everyone who is dependent on my structure will not be compatible anymore"
12:16	tgoossens	borkude : i'm actually asking questions that people ask me as well yes
12:16	borkdude	tgoossens what if you expose a getter that was wrong
12:16	nDuff	tgoossens: "If someone is dependent on your structure, instead of dependent on your function interface, either you or they are Doing It Wrong"
12:16	Sonderblade	ppppaul: windows 8
12:17	nDuff	tgoossens: "If you want to describe your maps as 'private', use namespaced keys; this expresses that they're implementation details, able to be changed, and that others shouldn't rely on them directly"
12:17	tgoossens	borkude: what do you mean with wrong is this situation?
12:17	borkdude	nDuff I don't get it. If I use Ring, I expect a request map to have certain things, for example?
12:17	borkdude	tgoossens subject to change wrong
12:17	nDuff	tgoossens: "This works well in the Python world, where no private variables exist, but it's an understood social contract that members and methods starting with underscores aren't available for public access"
12:17	nDuff	borkdude: Sure -- in that case, they're part of the public interface.
12:18	ppppaul	i'm on ubuntu with a custom kernel... emacs on windows may be less preformant
12:18	nDuff	borkdude: If someone wants to have members that _aren't_ part of the public interface, but hidden behind a layer of abstraction, that's available (by convention) as well.
12:18	tgoossens	borkdude: i could introduce a new getter that does the right thing. And everyone using my old getter will still be able to
12:18	ppppaul	i've never used windows to develop, cept with eclipse and MS stuff
12:18	nDuff	s/your maps/members of your maps/
12:19	tbaldridge	tgoossens: I would also say that this sort of thing happens less often in Clojure.
12:19	borkdude	tgoossens the same would be the case in clojure: you would have to provide the old key-value for backward compatibiltiy?
12:19	tgoossens	nduff: "with function interface. Do you mean like the public interface of a class?"
12:20	modulus	Hi there. So is there a canonical way to make a websocket client on clojure?
12:20	tbaldridge	in OOP it's super easy to get a class hierarchy wrong, with data, it happens less often, and when it does, it's normally just a renaming of a few keys, or the data in a assoc-in vector
12:20	borkdude	I like the analogy of webservices though: if big systems are supposed to talk to each other via immutable basic data, why not apply this on a smaller scale as well
12:21	tgoossens	tbaldridge: "Can't i solve this by composition instead of inheritance in an OOP language?"
12:21	nDuff	tgoossens: "It's very much a similar concept -- also, like Java interfaces, a set of functions isn't tightly coupled to a specific object type, so protocols or multimethods can be used to provide different implementations to be used with different types of data"
12:23	pbostrom	modulus: personally, I just use direct js interop, you could also consider putting a wrapper around the js interface, there's only a few functions, I don't think there is a canonical websocket library at the moment
12:23	ppppaul	multimethods can come in very handy
12:24	ppppaul	i've only used them in-place of if/switch statements
12:24	tgoossens	nDuff: "but how can a map ensure robust software if you don't obligate a certain interface like a java interface? If you have really large maps, does't this become a problem?"
12:24	jcromartie	ppppaul: I'm using them in my data layer
12:24	jcromartie	ppppaul: e.g. a repository is just a map with a :db :collection and :validator
12:25	jcromartie	and the repository operations dispatch on the collection name
12:25	modulus	pbostrom: javascript interop? not sure i get this. i want to run clojure on jvm and use it as ws client. is it possible to use javascript from there?
12:25	ppppaul	tgoossens, i've done work with xml-seq where my maps were so big they would crash emacs.... but so long as i didn't print them out operations on them were fast.
12:25	pbostrom	modulus: sorry, I misread, ignore what I said
12:26	tbaldridge	tgoossens: that's what tests are for. If you have proper tests, you can change the map representation, and then run tests to make sure it works.
12:26	tgoossens	pppaul: its not the performance now. I'm wondering whether it is still do-able because maps don't obligate a certain form??
12:26	lazybot	tgoossens: Definitely not.
12:26	borkdude	ppppaul you might want to (set! print-level …) and/or print-length
12:26	tbaldridge	lazybot: what are you talking about?
12:26	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
12:27	ppppaul	borkdude, i would reduce the map to something small before printing.... printing out an xml-seq isn't so useful anyway
12:27	tgoossens	"In java for a person i would make an IPerson interface. And there can be different representations of it. How is that not good? (for robustness, extendabillity)"
12:28	mpenet	ambrosebs: is `untyped-ann` something you plan to add in the near future? (I have no idea how difficult it is to implement)
12:30	tbaldridge	tgoossens: IPerson is fine, but the problem is when you get to more complex interfaces. Think for instance of IBachelor...
12:30	ambrosebs	mpenet: It seems like an important feature. It should probably be added before 0.2.0
12:30	nDuff	tgoossens: "If you're providing a function interface as the only supported and documented means of access, and using namespaced keys to explicitly declare map contents private, you _are_ obligating its use -- any reasonable code review of a component which uses someone else's namespaced keys contrary to documentation will reject it out-of-hand"
12:30	tbaldridge	IBachelor should have "putBeerInFridge", and perhaps "goFindADate"...
12:30	mpenet	ambrosebs: great
12:31	tgoossens	nduff: "so what you are saying is, that the representation of the map here doesn't matter. The functions you use just have to be able to use it?"
12:31	tbaldridge	So in this type system, what is a monk (doesn't find dates) or a Mormon (doesn't drink beer)?
12:31	tbaldridge	With data you don't have to worry about that, based on certain criteria you can modify the data at will. You're free to mix and match, and compose operations.
12:32	tbaldridge	tgoossens: have you seen the talk "simple vs easy" by Rich?
12:32	borkdude	tbaldridge NotImplementedException :P
12:32	tgoossens	tbaldrige: yes. i've seen them all (remember i'm still kinda impersonating/acting + putting in my own uncertainties)
12:33	pbostrom	modulus: I think Jetty has a websocket client
12:33	tbaldridge	well in that case I'll give you the completely arrogant answer: it sounds like it's a problem, until you try it and realize it's not.
12:33	tgoossens	hehe
12:33	belak	Are there any good IRC bots written in Clojure? Or, what would be a good project to start with?
12:34	modulus	hmm, i thought jetty was a webserver
12:34	tgoossens	now a real question of my own
12:34	tgoossens	why did we invent syntax anyway then (if it is really that great) ?
12:34	tbaldridge	just like dynamic typing. People say "I'll never know if my program works", but spend 4 months in the language and you'll say "what was I thinking this is awesome".
12:34	modulus	belak: a good proejct would be a websocket client library ;-)
12:34	tgoossens	Why are we where we are now
12:34	kursion2	Jetty is a middlewar
12:34	belak	modulus: sorry, I meant a good project t start learning with
12:35	borkdude	Don't know this, but doesn't Pedestal support websocket things maybe?
12:35	belak	*to
12:35	modulus	pedestal? hmm, will check.
12:36	tbaldridge	Pedestal supports SSE (server sent events). They are only one direction (server->client) but they are better than long-polling. Web sockets are not yet implemented.
12:37	danielglauser	tbaldridge: What's the best way to find out how SSEs work?
12:37	tgoossens	ok thanks guys for the discussion :)
12:37	pbostrom	modulus: http://download.eclipse.org/jetty/stable-7/apidocs/org/eclipse/jetty/websocket/WebSocketClient.html
12:37	borkdude	tgoossens syntax because if familiarity (infix math instead of prefix, etc) I think
12:38	modulus	pbostrom: thanks, i was hoping not to have to go to java, but i guess that's life.
12:38	tbaldridge	danielglauser: the implementation is only about 145 lines of Clojure: https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/service/src/io/pedestal/service/http/sse.clj
12:39	tbaldridge	The idea is that you keep the socket open, then send event: eventid \n data: <data> \n\n so each message is separated via a CRLF.
12:40	tbaldridge	that's all there is to it, the rest of that file is magic to keep the socket from closing, and to allow any thread to send data
12:41	pbostrom	modulus: yeah, I hear you, in my limited experience using websockets for a hobby project, the web ecosystem in general has been slow to adopt, see for example ngnix only added support for websockets a month ago
12:41	mpenet	Long Polling has an advantage still, it passes proxies and other weird server configs out there. No that I like it better, I do not.
12:41	tbaldridge	https://github.com/pedestal/samples/blob/master/server-sent-events/src/server_sent_events/service.clj this file shows an example that sends a message from a random thread, printing the thread-id
12:41	tbaldridge	that's the nice thing about SSE, it is long polling
12:42	modulus	pbostrom: unfortunately i need ws because the API that i need to use from the server uses it ... otherwise i'd probably try something else
12:42	mpenet	ah, it seemed to me it was based on response streaming
12:42	tbaldridge	eh....you're right. my bad
12:42	mpenet	:)
12:43	tbaldridge	it's long response time, so I suppose the proxy could cut off the connection because it sees there's little data being sent.
12:43	tbaldridge	I hate proxies/firewalls that think they know better about your connection than you.
12:43	mpenet	long polling costs more in resources (constant restart of hanging request), that's one downside
12:44	ppppaul	tgoossens, syntax is a layer over the AST... it is useful, but has many limitations and people who use lisp usually don't like these limitations.
12:44	mpenet	but it's supported by pretty much everything, always good to have a fallback on this
12:48	mpenet	tbaldridge: not only long response time, but also some config will just drop anything past the first chunk for instance
12:51	biomunky	hi all, i've cloned the cascalog project from github. When i start the tutorial i get a classnotfound exception for hadoop.fs.FileSystem (i have followed the instructions in the README) - anyone got a suggestions for fixing this
12:53	ambrosebs	mpenet: I've created an issue FWIW http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CTYP-25
12:54	mpenet	thanks!
12:55	mpenet	ambrosebs: just a thought, "instead of tc-ignore" does that mean it will go away? I think both can be usefull
12:56	ambrosebs	mpenet: tc-ignore will be staying for a few more versions yet.
12:56	mpenet	ok
13:05	duncanm	hello all
13:14	danneu	Is there a better way to specify that a symbol represents a collection of one? (def word "apple"); (intersection (set [word]) #{"apple" "chair" "house"})
13:17	bbloom	like a collection wrapped apple?
13:17	bbloom	i like: wrapple :-)
13:21	danneu	after typing that out i realize it's saying exactly what i want it to.
13:21	danneu	ie this is a coll of strings, not a coll of chars.
13:25	gaverhae	Hi all. I'm blocked by something that should be trivial : what's the easiest way to set assert to false using leiningen ?
13:26	borkdude	gaverhae what is assert for?
13:27	borkdude	gaverhae my guess (set! assert false)
13:27	gaverhae	assert is the global var that controls pre- and post-conditions during compilation
13:28	borkdude	pre- and postconditions are checked at compile time?
13:28	gaverhae	So I basically need a way to ask leiningen to execute (set! assert false) before compilation, in the compilation thread
13:28	gaverhae	assert is checked at compile time to enable/disable pre/post conditions
13:28	borkdude	gaverhae you can put this in your :init settings in profiles.clj
13:29	gaverhae	Thanks !
13:29	borkdude	gaverhae or in some other profile, project specific
13:29	gaverhae	Is it possible to get that via the commandline instead of putting it into project.clj, so it can be more selective ?
13:30	ppppaul	anyone here have experience using jclouds?
13:30	hiredman	yeah, it hurt
13:30	borkdude	gaverhae I don't know, try in #leiningen
13:35	hyPiRion	gaverhae: humm, that should be doable, let me check it out
13:35	duncanm	danneu: i thought you can use a set as an IFn
13:36	duncanm	hmm, maybe i don't understand, nevermind
13:43	ebaxt	Is there a url-rewrite middleware for ring? Something like rack-rewrite maybe?
13:47	ebaxt	Suppose I can use a servlet filter http://tuckey.org/urlrewrite/
13:49	hyPiRion	ebaxt: well, there's the wrap-base-url in hiccup-middleware, you may want to look a bit on that one
13:50	ebaxt	hyPiRion: Thx, I'll have a look
13:50	hyPiRion	It's not what you want, but making a rewriter out of it should be rather simple (assuming it's not very large)
13:50	hyPiRion	not exactly *
14:02	grebus	anyone know if there's the equivalent of memfn for field access in clojurescript? I can't find it
14:02	dnolen	grebus: doesn't exist
14:04	grebus	dnolen: oh, thanks. looks easy to write, is there some gotcha I should look out for if implementing it myself, such that it didn't make it to clojurescript core?
14:05	dnolen	grebus: does memfn work for fields & methods? I never use it.
14:07	amalloy	dnolen: it should work for fields in jvm-clojure, but in cljs it has to generate .-member instead so it won't work
14:08	grebus	dnolen, amalloy: yeah, memfn doesn't seem to work for fields
14:08	dnolen	amalloy: yeah that's why I asked, so grebus - I don't see how it could work.
14:08	dnolen	grebus: oh hmm
14:08	grebus	dnolen: #(.-bla %) is the equivalent, right?
14:09	n_b	,(doc memfn)
14:09	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn. name may be type-hinted with the method receiver's type in order to avoid reflective calls."
14:09	Glenjamin	is there a way to get leiningen to tell me which checkout dependencies it's using?
14:09	TimMc	,((memfn indexOf s f) "memfn" "m" 1)
14:09	clojurebot	2
14:09	technomancy	Glenjamin: `ls checkouts`
14:10	Glenjamin	the app is acting like it's not using it :S
14:10	technomancy	Glenjamin: you could try `lein checkouts`
14:10	technomancy	err
14:10	technomancy	`lein classpath`
14:11	borkdude	technomancy ls checkouts? I've never seen a checkout directory in a lein project
14:11	Glenjamin	bingo, that's handy
14:11	Glenjamin	thanks technomancy
14:11	borkdude	ah wait, checkout dependencies
14:16	arrdem	is there a way to make fnparse not die if there are remaining tokens?
14:17	Raynes	Decide to maintain it and take over project ownership.
14:17	dnolen	grebus: yes
14:17	duncanm	hey, dnolen
14:17	hyPiRion	Raynes: That's the correct way to do it.
14:17	dnolen	duncanm: hullo
14:17	duncanm	dnolen: did you see that some guy on fonc found the paper alan mentioned before? the one about control structures
14:19	dnolen	duncanm: hep, downloaded :)
14:19	dnolen	s/hep/yep
14:19	duncanm	yeah, me too
14:19	duncanm	dnolen: are you working on clojurescript much these days?
14:22	dnolen	duncanm: yes
14:22	duncanm	dnolen: i've been trying out typescript, but i have a question that also concerns clojurescript -
14:22	dnolen	duncanm: what's up?
14:23	duncanm	dnolen: with all these APIs defined in CPS style, i find it really hard to start working from the REPL
14:23	dnolen	duncanm: JS apis?
14:23	duncanm	yeah
14:23	dnolen	duncanm: right, Clojure people are coming w/ various solutions for that
14:24	duncanm	oh, i'm interested in finding out what ideas they have
14:24	duncanm	dnolen: also, i was writing a little server that deals with git repos, so i was using the fs module
14:24	dnolen	duncanm: lots of stuff to look at, FRP, Javelin, Chris Grangers's stuff, Kevin Lynagh's stuff etc
14:25	duncanm	dnolen: i actually don't know how it fits together, but i was looking for some way to do fluid variables, so that i can bind process.cwd() within some scope
14:25	dnolen	duncanm: are you doing node stuff?
14:25	duncanm	dnolen: yeah
14:25	duncanm	dnolen: so far, i've used a lot of async.js (with typescript)
14:25	dnolen	duncanm: yeah, there's a lot less CLJS activity there though Bodil is forging ahead
14:26	duncanm	dnolen: and there were these ideas i have (from working with lisps in the past), and i realized the clojurescript people are the only ones who'd know what i'm talking about
14:27	duncanm	things like fluid variables, or using the REPL to incrementally build things up -- the JS people don't really know these habits/techniques
14:28	duncanm	i'm a bit rusty with clojure/cljs, but would with-open work correctly if the body is a bunch of async calls?
14:28	malyn	duncanm: Bodil's Red Lobster looks pretty great for working with Node.js-style async APIs -- https://github.com/bodil/redlobster
14:29	duncanm	malyn: ahh, indeed
14:30	duncanm	neat
14:30	duncanm	dnolen: thanks for the referecnes
14:30	duncanm	dnolen: i'm interested in rxjs too, which is kinda in the same space
14:30	dnolen	duncanm: np, take a look around people are working on fun stuff these days
14:31	tomoj	hmm are cells not places?
14:31	dnolen	duncanm: CLJS is still rough around the edges but we're making progress
14:31	duncanm	dnolen: typescript is quite interesting, and they're about to make a big release in a few weeks
14:33	dnolen	duncanm: I find it theoretically interesting but it doesn't really solve any of the problems I actually have JS (types are really low on my own list of important things)
14:33	duncanm	dnolen: i've been using it to learn the APIs, for that it's pretty handy
14:35	dnolen	duncanm: makes sense, is TypeScript able to infer types for all of the Node.js API or something?
14:35	dnolen	or do they ship w/ that
14:35	dnolen	?
14:35	duncanm	dnolen: they have these foo.d.js files which include 'typings'
14:35	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:36	duncanm	dnolen: and they're adding more to the type system, so soon you can write something like this
14:36	dnolen	duncanm: yeah, so do they ships w/ types for Node.js, I've Underscore.js & jQuery (though the types are so broad it doesn't seem that helpful)
14:36	duncanm	interface Document {
14:36	duncanm	createElement(tagName: string): HTMLElement;
14:36	dnolen	I've seen types for Underscore.js & jQuery I mean
14:36	duncanm	createElement(tagName: 'canvas'): HTMLCanvasElement; }
14:36	duncanm	which is kinda neat
14:36	duncanm	dnolen: yeah, there are github repos where people collect these typings
14:36	duncanm	dnolen: the types will get tighter once they put in generics
14:37	duncanm	http://blogs.msdn.com/b/typescript/archive/2013/03/25/working-on-typescript-0-9-generics-overload-on-constants-and-compiler-performance.aspx
14:37	dnolen	duncanm: ah nice - one can hope Typed Clojure can do something like that for people who want that when they need it.
14:37	duncanm	dnolen: right
14:37	duncanm	dnolen: cljs might(?!?) be able to get there via typed clojure
14:37	duncanm	anyhow
14:38	dnolen	duncanm: yes, ClojureScript is probably simpler to type than CLJS even given lack of subtyping around protocols but Ambrose probably has more to say about that.
14:39	dnolen	CLJS simple than CLJ I mean of course.
14:42	dnolen	duncanm: still, TypeScript is really interesting, I've been trying to keep up w/ it and Dart as well.
14:50	dnolen	duncanm: that said the fact people are writing 100KLOC codebases w/ TypeScript doesn't bode well for the semantics of the language IMHO :P sounds like they're bringing worst practices to JS runtimes.
14:50	tbaldridge	dnolen: but it's typed, that means you can hire any dev off the street and he can't produce bad code!
14:50	tbaldridge	:-P
14:51	tbaldridge	I said it before TypedScript came out, and I'll say it again. MS hates dynamic languages. That's all the thought process that went into TypedScript, imo.
14:51	duncanm	dnolen: yeah, i haven't had time to look into dart
14:52	duncanm	tbaldridge: but what about VS and IDispatch? ;-P
14:52	duncanm	eek, i mean, VB
14:52	TimMc	,((memfn get [x y]) {[1 2] 42} [1 2 3 4]) ;; hyPiRion, a new abomination for you
14:52	clojurebot	42
14:52	dnolen	duncanm: TypeScript & Dart both feel like lighter weight Javas to me. So it's hard for me muster much excitement beyond compiler / type nerdery.
14:52	TimMc	Or maybe that's an old one.
14:53	hyPiRion	,(doc memfn)
14:53	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn. name may be type-hinted with the method receiver's type in order to avoid reflective calls."
14:53	duncanm	dnolen: how do you feel about programming in javascript?
14:54	hyPiRion	,(macroexpand-1 '(memfn hello [x y]))
14:54	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [target190 [x y]] (. target190 (hello [x y])))
14:54	dnolen	tbaldridge: btw, your LLVM talk was rocking!
14:54	duncanm	dnolen: i've been trying to learn JS, and embrace it - and i find TS to offer some nice additions, while not deviating too much from JS
14:54	duncanm	i haven't done any serious JS programming before this
14:54	hyPiRion	TimMc: Well, that's a new one for me, at least.
14:54	hyPiRion	I knew about the funny things you could do with memoize though
14:55	dnolen	tbaldridge: basically covered the same ground as an EDSL in Haskell talk I saw at TechMesh, but a bit more impressive IMO
14:55	ivan	TodoMVC needs a time slider
14:55	hyPiRion	,(let [mem-conj (memoize conj)] [(mem-conj '(1) 2) (mem-conj [1] 2)])
14:55	clojurebot	[(2 1) (2 1)]
14:55	dnolen	duncanm: been doing for 7 years, it's fine I don't hate it or love it.
14:55	TimMc	hyPiRion: Oh yeah, that's a "good" one for sure.
14:55	duncanm	dnolen: ah
14:56	TimMc	hyPiRion: Good times arguing about what, exactly, is broken there.
14:56	hyPiRion	yeah
14:57	tbaldridge	dnolen: thanks! I had a blast giving the talk.
14:57	konr_6	in which library is '-?>>'?
14:57	Bronsa	core.incubator
14:57	ivan	core.equality
14:57	Bronsa	wat
14:57	konr_6	thanks!
14:57	ivan	I was making a joke about an earlier thing ;)
14:57	Bronsa	oh, ok
14:59	hyPiRion	Ahh, I was sad when I saw that Clojure + LLVM was presented at Clojure/West. I soo wanted to watch that one.
15:02	mikerod	It seems to me that `defmethod` does not ensure that the the `fn-tail` argument given to it has the correct number of arguments. The correct number being the number of arguments of the dispatch function defined with `defmulti`. Is this a correct observation?
15:03	avishai	hi
15:03	amalloy	mikerod: the dispatch function can take any number of arguments, so it would not be possible to ensure what you're talking about
15:04	avishai	i need a little help with require
15:04	amalloy	(defmulti counter [& args] (count args)) (defmethod counter 0 [] "called with nothing!") (defmethod counter 1 [x] "called with one arg")
15:04	avishai	when i use the repl i can 'require my clj file
15:05	avishai	but when running a clojure file it doesn't work
15:07	mikerod	amalloy: So in the case of variadic args on the defmulti I see your point. However, It seems to me, from your example, I could have (defmethod counter 10 [x y] "I can't be called")
15:08	mikerod	It would take 10 args for the dispatch fn to match, but when this method is dispatched upon, it will throw an arity exception.
15:12	amalloy	mikerod: sure, and when you've solved the halting problem you can start work on analyzing every dispatch function to see what kinds of fntails are valid
15:12	amalloy	but until then, there's not really much we can do
15:14	grebus	I can't get the clojurescript browser-repl to recognize my macros, is that normal?
15:15	mikerod	amalloy: I understand it is probably difficult. I was just verifying that I understood that the number of arguments must match in this sort of scenario. I appreciate the insight!
15:15	amalloy	yep, they have to match, and the compiler can't check it for you
15:28	dnolen	grebus: you need to make sure they are loaded by eval'ing the ns form
15:36	grebus	dnolen: thanks, I tried that, in line with your advice at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12337509/how-can-macros-be-evaluated-using-the-clojurescript-repl, but when I try evaluating the ns form from the browser repl I get "Could not locate <namespace with macros>.__init.class or <namespace with macros>.clj on classpath" … I'm using clojurescript-mode in emacs, if that's of any significance.
15:53	TimMc	This Pedestal thing... is it going to fulfil my lifelong dream of having a single-page app that can generate its HTML either on the client or on the server, and either as a whole page or in as-needed fragments?
15:54	avishai	is there a macro that returns a lazy sequence of nested function calls? like (x f(x) f(f(x) ...)
15:54	hyPiRion	avishai: reductions
15:54	avishai	10
15:54	avishai	10x
15:54	TimMc	avishai: repeatedly, and it's a fn
15:54	hyPiRion	no wait, iterate
15:54	TimMc	Oh, no, iterate
15:54	hyPiRion	,(take 10 (iterate inc 1))
15:54	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
15:54	TimMc	convergence!
15:54	avishai	cool
15:55	hyPiRion	,(take 10 (reductions + (range)))
15:55	clojurebot	(0 1 3 6 10 ...)
15:56	dyreshark	,(take 4 (range))
15:56	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
15:56	TimMc	,(reductions (fn [_ r] r) (iterate inc 0))
15:56	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
15:58	hyPiRion	TimMc: well, that is also one way to write (map identity ...)
16:02	TimMc	,(reductions (comp peek vector) (iterate inc 0))
16:02	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
16:02	hyPiRion	,(binding [print-length 10] (pr (reductions #(- %2 %1) (reductions + (range)))))
16:02	clojurebot	(0 1 2 4 6 9 12 16 20 25 ...)
16:10	TimMc	That's a neat sequence.
16:10	tomoj	&(let [q clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (identical? q (pop q)))
16:10	lazybot	⇒ true
16:10	tomoj	&(pop [])
16:10	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't pop empty vector
16:10	bbloom	tomoj: i was just grumbling about that yesterday :-P
16:11	tomoj	which one? :)
16:12	bbloom	i guess an exception is reasonable sometimes? i dunno. i hate exceptions :-P
16:12	bbloom	but i really just want (pop vector ::not-found)
16:12	bbloom	well not really
16:12	bbloom	i guess that's peek
16:13	bbloom	and i guess peek does return nil
16:13	tomoj	(first nil ::not-found) ? O_o
16:13	bbloom	no, it's last
16:13	tomoj	yeah, I mean for seqs
16:13	bbloom	but i want vectors
16:13	bbloom	last is linear time
16:13	bbloom	pop is constant time last for vectors
16:14	enquora	yogthos: is clj-pdf a straight-up port of cl-pdf?
16:14	tomoj	well, sure, (peek nil ::not-found) for vectors - by analogy, then, (first nil ::not-found) for seqs?
16:14	bbloom	oh, yeah maybe
16:14	bbloom	but there is 'or
16:14	bbloom	which isn't quite the same
16:15	bbloom	(or (first s) ::not-found) will be incorrect on '(nil)
16:15	bbloom	and substitute ::not-found with ::empty
16:15	tomoj	I guess you can do (if (seq coll) (peek coll) ::not-found)
16:16	tomoj	which is particularly idiomatic for seqs/first
16:16	bbloom	yeah, i tend to do that sort of thing somewhat regularly
16:16	tomoj	whereas for ILookup that doesn't work, nor nthnext, so they both get not-found args
16:17	tomoj	er
16:17	tomoj	hmm why did I think nthnext had a not-found
16:18	tomoj	oh it's nth
16:19	yogthos	enquora: I haven't actually heard of cl-pdf :)
16:19	enquora	guess it isn't then
16:19	TimMc	,(nth [] 0 :nope)
16:19	clojurebot	:nope
16:19	yogthos	enquora: it's a wrapper around iText inspired by hiccup syntax
16:19	enquora	and, I see a reference to itext
16:19	enquora	:-)
16:19	enquora	:-( that should be
16:20	yogthos	I needed to make reports at work and after looking at the options decided to roll my own :P
16:20	enquora	http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/cl-pdf
16:20	yogthos	itext is kind of painful on its own :)
16:20	bbloom	tomoj: TimMc: yeah, i think i want a not-found for first and peek :-)
16:20	enquora	we need to generate pdfs from the same codebase on server, in browser and iOS
16:21	enquora	was hoping to find a clojurescript pdf library
16:21	enquora	cl-pdf isnt'it
16:21	bosie	is there a quicker way than doing #(not (nil? %))
16:21	yogthos	enquora: I did make this :) http://instantpdf.herokuapp.com/
16:21	yogthos	enquora: https://github.com/yogthos/instant-pdf
16:21	yogthos	it's a rest service that accepts json and returns a pdf back
16:21	enquora	nice
16:21	yogthos	so you could call it from js pretty easily :)
16:22	yogthos	it wraps the clj-pdf inside
16:22	enquora	with no http? ;-)
16:22	enquora	by browser, I mean offline
16:22	yogthos	ahh
16:22	yogthos	yeah won't be much good without network connection :)
16:22	enquora	scientific/engineering reports with very dense layouts
16:22	yogthos	sounds like fun :)
16:22	enquora	back to working with raw pdf primitives
16:23	yogthos	shiver
16:23	enquora	not so bad in lisp :-)
16:23	yogthos	true true :)
16:23	tieTYT2	i've been told new clojure devs go overboard with macros and protocols. What about with ->?
16:23	enquora	it isn't working with the pdf primitives that's the problem
16:23	enquora	it's generating tables using css like layout directives, crossing pages
16:23	yogthos	tieTYT2: -> is very handy
16:24	tieTYT2	yogthos: yeah it seems pretty cool
16:24	bosie	a not-nil? built-in that is
16:24	yogthos	enquora: yeah these things get tricky fast
16:25	yogthos	tieTYT2: basically it flattens out your nested expressions and helps readability a lot in my opinion
16:25	enquora	haven't started yet, but it seems to me we can create a PDF-analogous data structure in clojure, and reify it when we're done
16:25	tieTYT2	ok then i'll start incorporating it
16:25	tieTYT2	what about ->>? That one seemed like it required more thought to me
16:25	papachan	hi
16:25	technomancy	does anyone override the :base profile in Leiningen (or even know how that works to begin with)?
16:25	yogthos	tieTYT2: its just whether you want your argument to be first or last
16:26	tieTYT2	oh so it is
16:26	tieTYT2	i didn't notice that
16:26	papachan	if i compile my script in clojure into Jar. i can add it to my android project, or any java project?
16:27	yogthos	papachan: you can add them to java projects, but you have to expose a Java compatible api using gen-class
16:27	tieTYT2	so (-> arg form) is the same as (->> arg form) as long as form has only one argument?
16:27	yogthos	papachan: good tutorial here http://kotka.de/blog/2010/02/gen-class_how_it_works_and_how_to_use_it.html
16:28	yogthos	tieTYT2: yup
16:28	papachan	yogthos: thank you. i take a look a this so
16:29	tieTYT2	k
16:31	Rich_Morin_	Looking at http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Project+Ideas, I don't see a way to add entries. Help?
16:32	hyPiRion	Rich_Morin_: " If you don't have Confluence access please submit your idea, following this template to the clojure mailing list with the subject prefix [GSoC Idea]."
16:32	tieTYT2	what a cool page
16:32	hyPiRion	I would try to register on dev.clojure.org first and check out if I could edit the entry.
16:33	Rich_Morin_	That's the funny thing; it has me logged in.
16:33	hyPiRion	Rich_Morin_: Have you signed the CA?
16:34	Rich_Morin_	I filled in and mailed a Clojure CA to RH months ago.
16:35	Rich_Morin_	and I seem to be listed on http://clojure.org/contributing
16:35	Rich_Morin_	Owell, I'll just use email.
16:35	hyPiRion	Rich_Morin_: yeah, saw you there. Ask on the clojure-dev mailing list for Confluence access
16:36	tieTYT2	yogthos: can you think of any other things like -> that I should know to write more idiomatic code?
16:36	amalloy	tieTYT2: for-comprehensions. the more experienced i get, the more of them i use
16:36	tieTYT2	amalloy: is that related to haskell list comprehensions?
16:37	amalloy	meh
16:38	tieTYT2	this? http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for
16:39	amalloy	yes
16:39	tieTYT2	ok
16:39	tieTYT2	thanks
16:43	arrdem	gah... is clojure-doc making any attempt to provide clojuredocs' namespace-pathed URLs?
16:47	arrdem	aand that's a no.
16:52	hugod	I'm trying to get titanium to connect to cassandra, and keep getting "NoAvailableHostsException: [host=None(0.0.0.0):0, latency=0(0), attempts=0] No hosts to borrow from com.netflix.astyanax.connectionpool.impl.RoundRobinExecuteWithFailover.<init>" - I've no idea what's wrong...
16:54	nickmbailey	looks like astyanax is trying to connect to 0.0.0.0, try setting your rpc_address to an actual ip instead of 0.0.0.0
16:55	nickmbailey	but i've never set up titan or used titanium fwiw
16:57	hugod	oh, in the cassandra config? I'll give that a go
16:58	akhudek	I'm trying to write a deftype that extends ISeq but end up getting AbstractMethodError clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom
16:58	akhudek	Not sure what I'm doing wrong, have first, next, and more implemented correctly.
17:02	squidz	I just read about being able to program C/C++ and compile to javascript with very good speeds using llvm bitcode with firefoxs asm.js. It made me wonder how hard it would be to convert clojure to llvm bitcode and what kind of advantages that might have.
17:03	akhudek	squidz: very hard, though I think the clojurepy guys are trying it so that they can target native code and python better
17:05	squidz	so they would first go from bitcode then to python? I dont really know anything about bitcode so forgive my ignorance
17:05	yogthos	tieTYT2: this is worth looking at https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
17:05	akhudek	squidz: I'm not that clear on the details. If you are interested, take a look at their mailing list.
17:06	yogthos	tieTYT2: and yeah for macro is very handy
17:06	dobladez	anybody here attended Stuart Sierra's session at ClojureWest? (title "Clojure in the Large" ) ?
17:07	squidz	akhudek: if you could easily go from llvm bitcode to other languages that would be pretty useful. Not just for compiling to javascript
17:07	dobladez	I got good ideas from it, but I'm still looking for ways to organize module dependencies better... I guess I missed something
17:08	akhudek	squidz: yes, it would, though it's a big undertaking
17:09	nDuff	...most of the schedule still up in the air, but it looks like they have some good keynotes lined up.
17:10	nDuff	(Also, an excuse to escape Austin in early July will be welcome).
17:10	dobladez	I liked the idea of having a System object, and manage components' lifecycle from there. However, I don't see myself passing the system object (or subcomponents) around as arguments all over the place
17:12	hugod	nickmbailey: thanks - that seems to have got me further
17:18	amalloy	hah, i just found ([] {}) in my code. it's like a whirlwind tour of clojure's syntax
17:20	stuartsierra	dobladez: You don't have to pass the system object everywhere.
17:20	AimHere	The main trouble with clojure's syntax is that it doesn't use angle brackets enough
17:20	dobladez	stuartsierra: do you know of any opensource project to draw ideas from?
17:21	amalloy	&(let [<> {}] (<> {} []))
17:21	lazybot	⇒ []
17:21	stuartsierra	dobladez: not totally. You can see some of these ideas at work in Pedestal.
17:22	akhudek	Hm, so looking at clojure.lang.RT it seems that simply implementing ISeq isn't enough?
17:22	dobladez	stuartsierra: Thanks. For the example of supporting multiple DB impls... at System creation time I instantiate my DB impl, and then I currently "set-db!" into a var on a 'db' namespace
17:22	TimMc	AimHere: Let me introduce you to the swiss arrows project...
17:23	stuartsierra	dobladez: That works.
17:23	dobladez	then, the db namespace is my db api that the rest of the app uses, "hiding" the actual impl. Otherwise, all application code somehow needs to obtain a reference to the db impl instance
17:24	stuartsierra	Yes, I prefer to do that via arguments or closing over the necessary values when I create the system.
17:24	stuartsierra	But sometimes tooling (e.g. Servlets) makes that harder.
17:25	dobladez	I'll continue experimenting... and pushing the idea of using arguments a bit further
17:25	dobladez	thanks again
17:25	stuartsierra	You're welcome.
17:26	avishai	hi
17:26	avishai	i'm going through the euler exersices
17:26	asteve	euler RULES!
17:26	pl6306	I interacting with an existing swing app from clojure. Basically I call a load method which loads something in swing async. In java I would wait for a property to added to a swing control before continuing. How best should achieve this clojure?
17:27	avishai	and while doing number 4 i get java.lang.StackOverflowError
17:27	pl6306	In java I would do thread.sleep while polling for a property
17:27	pl6306	Is there an idiomatic way to do this in clojure?
17:28	avishai	took the brute force approach
17:28	technomancy	pl6306: deref a promise
17:29	avishai	but why stackoverflow?
17:29	grebus	still having lots of trouble with macros in a bREPL… I'm eval'ing the ns form with its :use-macro's and such from the bREPL, but I'm throwing a java.io.FileNotFoundException to the effect that the clj files defining the macros aren't on the classpath. They were on the classpath enough to compile the cljs… what other classpath should they be on?
17:30	dobladez	pl6306: may be look at promises and futures
17:31	amalloy	akhudek: yes, pieces of clojure.lang assume that any IPersistentCollection also implements the related j.u.collections interfaces, even though the clojure.lang interfaces don't actually extend them
17:32	akhudek	amalloy: I just figured it out, I needed to also implement seq on the seqable class and declare it as Sequential
17:33	akhudek	https://www.refheap.com/paste/2b5587dcaea9b72fa0954d015
17:34	amalloy	akhudek: why do you even have a protocol for this?
17:34	dobladez	pl6306: also, in case you haven't seen it: https://github.com/daveray/seesaw. Looks really good
17:36	anthonyu	what is the syntax i should use so that this macro (https://gist.github.com/anthonyu/636b13b5d13f4520711d) could handle an arbitrary number of columns?
17:36	akhudek	amalloy: you mean why not use bit-set built in?
17:36	amalloy	no, i mean why does next-bit exist as a protocol?
17:36	akhudek	amalloy: oh, probably because of a poor design on my part
17:36	amalloy	just implement first/next/more and use your bitsetseq like an ordinary seq
17:37	akhudek	oh, I see, yes, I can just implement it all in BitSet
17:40	pl6306	I saw seesaw however this an app that has already been built by another team. I sort of get the promise concept however where do I call thread.sleep while waiting for the UI to finish loading?
17:40	pl6306	In the function that will populate the promise?
17:40	technomancy	pl6306: if you deref the promise it will block until the promise is delivered
17:40	technomancy	no sleeping required
17:40	dobladez	pl6306: the idea of use a promise is to avoid sleeping
17:41	pl6306	I need something to poll the UI thread to see if the work is done
17:41	pl6306	how can I block until something like a label is loaded?
17:41	nDuff	pl6306: Do you want to _poll_, or do you want to _block_?
17:42	nDuff	pl6306: If you want to _block_, just use deref.
17:42	pl6306	Both I want to block execute until (polling) the UI has finished loading
17:42	dobladez	so, one thread blocks on a promise, then the thread doing the work delivers the promise
17:42	nDuff	...
17:42	nDuff	sigh.
17:42	pl6306	I know
17:42	nDuff	pl6306: Why do you want to block by polling?
17:42	nDuff	pl6306: Why don't you let deref handle the blocking for you?
17:43	nDuff	pl6306: That way there's no polling involved -- just a notification when the promise is delivered.
17:43	dobladez	gotta go
17:43	pl6306	I get the part of deref blocking on a promise.
17:59	anthonyu	how does one pass arbitrary arguments and a body to a macro?
18:00	jeremyheiler	anthonyu: Pass in the arguments in a collection? Pass in the body in a (do ...)?
18:01	nDuff	anthonyu: typically, the same [... & args] approach used for normal variadic functions
18:02	technomancy	anthonyu: you can do something like this: (eval (apply #'clojure.core/defn () {} 'myfn []))
18:02	technomancy	but it's really not a good idea
18:03	anthonyu	ok, which part is the bad idea? the '(eval (apply' or the rest?
18:03	technomancy	(sorry, assuming you don't control the macro that is)
18:03	technomancy	if you control the macro just take & args
18:04	tomoj	anthonyu: why?
18:05	anthonyu	tomoj: i am making a macro that creates a test table with an arbitrary number of columns, then runs the body, then drops the table
18:06	anthonyu	here is the gist: https://gist.github.com/anthonyu/636b13b5d13f4520711d
18:06	anthonyu	that one works, but only with exactly two columns
18:09	thm_prover	are clojure futures guaranteed to execute? for example, I have a bunch of code (mostly gui update code), that I want to be certain that will be executed asap in an async fashion
18:10	thm_prover	my current idea is to throw them to an agent, but I'd prefer to not have agents around
18:10	thm_prover	so can I just stick them in futures, and will they edecute, even if I never deref the future?
18:10	jeremyheiler	anthonyu: I would just pass in the cols as a vector.
18:10	arrdem	yes, futures will be evaluated eventually with or without derefs.
18:10	thm_prover	arrdem: how soon is "eventually" ?
18:11	arrdem	thm_prover: depends on how many futures exist at once...
18:11	tomoj	anthonyu: that won't work
18:11	tomoj	you need some way to tell where the cols stop and the body starts
18:11	anthonyu	i see
18:12	tomoj	perhaps (with-test-table [table cols & body]), and cols is a vector of cols?
18:12	arrdem	thm_prover: it's async, but futures are executed from an eager worker queue so more or less as hardare threads become available.
18:12	anthonyu	tomoj: thanks, that worked
18:13	rdfi	is anyone using ClojureCLR?
18:14	thm_prover	arrdem: do agents or futures have higher priority, or are they the same worker queue?
18:15	jeremyheiler	thm_prover: Are you using Swing? If so, I'd be careful using multiple threads.
18:15	bosie	could someone please tell me how i have to rewrite (defn run ...) so i dont need to flatten so very often? https://www.refheap.com/paste/01f1e9fbddc589cdb322f8145
18:15	technomancy	rdfi: very few
18:15	thm_prover	jeremyheiler: I'm using SWT. I'm using (. display asyncExec ... ) so I'm safe for those updates. However, I do have updates taht involve calculations before talking tot eh SWT thread.
18:15	jeremyheiler	thm_prover: Cool
18:19	rdfi	technomancy: do you know if it is still being actively developed?
18:20	technomancy	rdfi: I vaguely believe so
18:20	technomancy	doesn't strike me as particularly practical though
18:28	chessguy	is there some obvious way to get a quick frequency count of all the items in a vector? i can imagine several ways to write it, i'm just wondering if there's support for it in clojure.core
18:29	technomancy	chessguy: freq<TAB>?
18:30	nDuff	,(doc frequencies)
18:30	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear."
18:31	nDuff	chessguy: find-doc is your friend.
18:32	chessguy	wow, i didn't think it would actually be called that
18:32	nlew	The worst part of writing clojure is the constant nagging feeling that there's a more concise core function to do what you need
18:34	technomancy	nlew: read through core.clj a couple times; it should help =)
18:35	nlew	technomancy: It's mostly the functions that aren't in core that are the worst. "There must be something, right? Right?" and then I scour the web. :)
18:35	nlew	To no avail!
18:35	technomancy	yeah, and in that case findfn won't help you =)
18:36	chessguy	or if you don't think of a good name for what you're looking for until you ask for it, and then you look like a moron...
18:36	Raynes	technomancy: Technically findfn works for any namespaces, it's just that we can't put all namespaces ever made on the classpath for it. :p
18:36	Raynes	And the more you add the slower it is and it is already pretty slow.
18:36	technomancy	Raynes: right; search time constraints
18:36	nlew	Raynes: It still can't find functions that don't exist though. :P
18:37	Raynes	This is true.
18:37	technomancy	it would be cool to write a findfn that could accept an arbitrary :dependencies set loaded up via pomegranate
18:37	chessguy	wow. core.clj is nearly 7k lines...
18:37	chessguy	i'll be in my bunk...
18:38	technomancy	heh
18:39	bosie	how would i recursively compute a list of lists without having to flatten lists?
18:40	hiredman	for, or more generally mapcat
18:41	bosie	hiredman: hm
18:42	hyPiRion	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q9x16uIsKA#t=1156s <- That for Clojure would be a nice replacement for $findfn
18:42	hyPiRion	I can put it up as an issue for lazybot for you
18:42	bosie	hiredman: https://www.refheap.com/paste/01f1e9fbddc589cdb322f8145 line 33 gets a list (p) and runs map on it. in the map i call the method again
18:42	bosie	hiredman: i tried mapcat there but that didn't work
18:43	hiredman	bosie: that is pretty gross
18:44	bosie	hiredman: i know
18:44	hiredman	so stop doing it gross
18:44	bosie	would love to, hence i ask
18:45	sturner	Is there a way to recompile java source files after specifying :java-source-paths ["src/java"] via the repl?
18:45	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/datalog/blob/master/src/datalog/core.clj uses concat and for to return the results of a depth first search as a list
18:46	bosie	hiredman: search-with-rules?
18:47	hiredman	no, all of it, the structure
18:47	tieTYT2	what's the point of defining using a let at the top level?
18:47	tieTYT2	err
18:47	tieTYT2	what's the point of using a let at the top level
18:48	bosie	hiredman: i dont follow
18:48	hiredman	everything returns a list(lazy sequence), and you concatenate results together
18:48	bosie	hiredman: most functions i see are not recursive there though?
18:49	tieTYT2	this is from a library Raynes wrote: http://pastebin.com/xssDhumH
18:49	tieTYT2	i don't understand why he put the let on the outside there
18:49	nDuff	...
18:49	tieTYT2	instead of nested under the defn
18:49	nDuff	you quote Raynes' code, but you don't use Raynes' pastebin to do it?
18:49	Raynes	Hahaha
18:49	Raynes	It's fine, it's fine.
18:49	tieTYT2	he has a pastebin?
18:50	nDuff	tieTYT2: refheap.com
18:50	arrdem	refheap.com
18:50	hyPiRion	~refheap
18:50	clojurebot	refheap is gist
18:50	amalloy	(inc clojurebot)
18:50	lazybot	⇒ 20
18:50	wink	it's not called a pastebin, that's the flaw
18:50	nDuff	tieTYT2: ...which, unlike pastebin.com, isn't a hive of annoying animated ads.
18:50	tieTYT2	k i'll use that in the future
18:50	hiredman	bosie: search is called at the top of the stack, and most things called by search also call search
18:50	Raynes	tieTYT2: Really though, no worries.
18:50	tieTYT2	https://www.refheap.com/paste/3f500be5d06f34745a39e332c
18:50	arrdem	the downside is that Raynes reads pastes and will mock you in channel if you post something horific...
18:51	nDuff	tieTYT2: ...so, what that's doing is closing over the let
18:51	amalloy	clojurebot: nDuff is <reply> Please don't use pastebin.com: there are lots of annoying animated ads
18:51	clojurebot	Roger.
18:51	nDuff	Heh.
18:51	Glenjamin	is there an advantage of having the let outside like that?
18:51	Raynes	tieTYT2: I could have put the let in the inside, but if you look I'm using 'homedir' in two places. Furthermore, "user.home" never changes. If I put the let on the inside then I'm doing unnecessary (albeit trivial) computation every time.
18:51	tieTYT2	what does closing over the let mean?
18:51	Glenjamin	oh right, for both variants of the function
18:51	nDuff	tieTYT2: Inheriting its value from an outer context, roughly.
18:52	bosie	hiredman: ok, looking at psearch then
18:52	chessguy	tieTYT2: i feel like there was just a discussion about that issue on the clojure mailing list the other day. did you see that?
18:52	tieTYT2	chessguy: nope
18:52	chessguy	let me see if i can dig it up
18:52	hiredman	bosie: psearch calls search, search calls other things, other things call search, etc
18:52	Raynes	tieTYT2: Putting the let on the outside means that those two pieces of code are only evaluated once ever, whereas if I put them on the inside they would be recalculated on every single call to this function.
18:53	Glenjamin	isn't that the sort of thing the JIT should be worrying about?
18:53	nDuff	Glenjamin: ...no?
18:53	Glenjamin	although i suppose they're not pure
18:53	Glenjamin	so that doesn't hold
18:53	nDuff	nod.
18:53	hyPiRion	Glenjamin: That's more of a compiler issue. It has no knowledge whether the function is pure or not. If it were pure, then perhaps
18:53	chessguy	tieTYT2: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/tTCZuzmz_6M/Ke7iKcDxpZQJ
18:54	tieTYT2	chessguy: thanks
18:54	tieTYT2	Raynes: won't it only be computed once because it either uses the 0 param or the 1 param option, but not both?
18:55	Glenjamin	tieTYT2: subsequent calls
18:55	tieTYT2	oh
18:55	Glenjamin	[(home) (home)]
18:56	Raynes	tieTYT2: I'm not really sure what you mean. The let is on the outside, so those things are evaluated first when Clojure reads and evaluates this code. Next, the function is created and it closes over those values, so that when you call the function again those values are reused and not recalculated.
18:56	tieTYT2	now as an api user (client) all I see is the home function, right? This doesn't change anything about how I call it
18:56	Raynes	No.
18:56	Raynes	It's the same.
18:56	tieTYT2	i see, cool
18:56	tieTYT2	ok i think i get it
18:59	Glenjamin	it does mean if you add a user, you'd have to restart the app :p
18:59	tieTYT2	weird thing, I was actually thinking about writing a library just like this last night
19:00	bosie	hiredman: honestly, thats hard to penetrate for me
19:00	chessguy	hm. i feel like reading core.clj just leaves me with more questions
19:00	technomancy	chessguy: most of the answers are "because the necessary macro hasn't been defined yet" I bet
19:01	technomancy	it's not idiomatic code at all
19:01	chessguy	technomancy: oh, it doesn't define its macros?
19:01	technomancy	it does, but later down in the file
19:01	chessguy	like (def list (. clojure.lang.PersistentList creator)), i can't find a definition for creator
19:01	technomancy	oh, well . is a macro that's hard-coded into the compiler
19:02	technomancy	so creator doesn't have to resolve
19:02	chessguy	oh, i mis-read it. never mind
19:02	hiredman	bosie: you can think of it as avoiding flatten because the responsibility for ensuring a particular result is wrapped in whatever the correct number of lists (0 to whatever) belongs to whoever adds the item to the result
19:03	chessguy	i thought it was (.clojure.lang.PersistentList creator)
19:04	hiredman	if function F recursively calls itself, and F returns a flat list, if I append {} to the result of calling F, the result will never have {} wrapped in an extra list
19:05	bosie	hiredman: thats my problem actually
19:05	bosie	hiredman: F returns a list of lists because of the map
19:06	bosie	hiredman: which is fine, cos the end result is a list of lists
19:06	hiredman	bosie: you need to get serious about your base cases, make sure they all result in a flat list, because if you mapcat a function over a list of flat lists, unless that function produces nested lists, you will get flat lists
19:07	bosie	hiredman: the recursion stops and returns [[1] [2] [3]]. i can't return a flat list
19:08	hiredman	bosie: yeah, but you can call that a X and a list of X's is your flat list
19:08	Glenjamin	hrm, why does the #record[a b] form only allow fully qualified names?
19:09	bosie	hiredman: ok
19:09	hiredman	so is [[1] [2] [3]] a result or a collection of results?
19:09	bosie	hiredman: thats one result
19:10	hiredman	so it needs to be returned as [[[1] [2] [3]]] or (list [[1] [2] [3]])
19:10	bosie	hiredman: the end result (i.e. what run should return) should be [[[1] [2] [3]] [[5] [6]]]
19:10	hiredman	so your functions should always return results at a consistent level of nesting
19:10	bosie	hm
19:11	hiredman	if the final result is a collection of results, and intermediate results should be too
19:11	bosie	gotcha
19:15	geraldo	1st time in a clojure pub. good night ppl
19:28	shriphani	hi everyone. I see a bunch of csv libs around. Is there anything you recommend? Anything to do an append (I only see 'read' and 'write' and would rather not fseek myself.
19:28	Glenjamin	arohner: yo, did you get a chance to look over the pull request for bond?
19:28	arohner	Glenjamin, not yet, sorry
19:29	Glenjamin	no worries
19:33	Raynes	To whoever pasted https://www.refheap.com/paste/12977 if present in this room: there is a sql language option.
19:34	Raynes	Also, wee almost 13k pastes.
19:35	Glenjamin	hrm
19:35	Glenjamin	it's non-obvious how to get a new paste when viewing a paste
19:35	Glenjamin	to me, at least
19:35	Glenjamin	i guessed "click the name of the site"
19:36	bosie	hiredman: dude. you were right
19:37	bosie	hiredman: thanks a lot. i never would have thought about the same nestedness of the function
19:37	bosie	hiredman: s/function/return value
19:57	arrdem	is there some way that I can find out what namespace a generated function resides in?
19:58	arrdem	so if I have an error that I can localize to the invocation of "$fn_375" can I figure out which fn that is?
19:59	technomancy	for unknown reasons the compiler does not attach metadata to anonymous functions
19:59	amalloy	arrdem: $fn_375 isn't a function name that i can imagine the compiler ever generating
19:59	seanms	I have a question about nrepl about its classpath
20:00	seanms	I am trying to figure out how nrepl determines the path, I'm trying to modify an internal build tool to be able to use nrepl w/o lein
20:00	arrdem	amalloy: I'm looking at a stacktrace here which shows an invocation of fn_375 it seems in algo.monads
20:01	amalloy	so paste a stacktrace
20:01	seanms	I found a stackoverflow question stating that nrepl uses lein for classpath resolution, but havent been able to find the connection between the two
20:01	technomancy	seanms: nrepl doesn't determine the classpath at all
20:02	seanms	and setting the java classpath does not seem to have an effect
20:03	arrdem	https://www.refheap.com/paste/12981
20:03	technomancy	seanms: that's almost certainly not right; the classpath you provide to the java command should be the only thing that matters unless you're instantiating dynamic classloaders.
20:04	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/algo/monads.clj#L578 it seems
20:04	seanms	technomancy: thanks, I'll look into it further
20:07	Sgeo	Are there nice Spring MVC guides for people used to sane languages?
20:07	Sgeo	My job is going to involve Spring MVC :/
20:07	Sgeo	Although it's not as bad as I feared
20:08	Sgeo	I think
20:12	amalloy	arrdem: my point was that you can't figure anything out from "$fn__375", but "clojure.algo.monads$state_t$m_bind_state_t__373$fn__374$fn__375" tells you everything you need to know
20:13	arrdem	amalloy: ok thanks then.
20:14	arrdem	I think I'm going to be able to show that this is either a bug in fnparse or monads but we shall see...
20:17	arrdem	bloody...
20:17	brehaut	arrdem: its much more likely to be in fnparse than contrib.monads, unless you are using monad transformers
20:17	arrdem	well not sure what it is but I found a fix...
20:18	amalloy	brehaut: his link was to state-t, so...
20:20	brehaut	fwiw then, i ran into some trouble writing generic lifted accessors that worked nicely with both (state-t maybe-m) and (state-t seq-m)
20:21	brehaut	but the basic state and maybe/list operations worked correctly
20:21	arrdem	here yall go
20:21	arrdem	https://www.refheap.com/paste/12982
20:22	arrdem	it comes down to user error... if a fnparse matcher yields non-nil it is assumed to be a success state and treated as a monad.
20:23	arrdem	I had code in the tail position which didn't return nil..
20:23	arrdem	so it was trying to treat junk values as a monad and bad things were happening.
20:23	hiredman	fnparse :(
20:23	supersym	sigh ... chrome, what a project :S
20:23	brehaut	hiredman: what particularly about it?
20:23	arrdem	I haven't had real issues with fnparse yet.. but that was a friggin waste of an hour.
20:24	hiredman	brehaut: is there an up to date fork?
20:24	brehaut	hiredman: factual seem to have taken over
20:24	brehaut	https://github.com/factual/fnparse/
20:25	hiredman	that is kind of neat
20:25	arrdem	my only complaint about the factual fork is that they didn't do the docs too
20:25	brehaut	arrdem: but the docs have always been a bit rubbish, so thats not really a loss
20:25	arrdem	truth.
20:25	hiredman	anyone, the guy kept rewriting it and changing it
20:25	arrdem	but good docs still.
20:25	hiredman	who knows if want I have remotely matches whatever factual's fork is based on
20:26	brehaut	hiredman: it looks like they are sticking with approximately whatever the 2.x series was
20:26	arrdem	brehaut: doing good APIs is hard... and a skill I haven't learned yet.
20:26	hiredman	yeah, I think mine is pre 2.x
20:26	arrdem	yeah the last api Choi documented is almost exactly correct
20:27	arrdem	there's one thing but I don't remember what it is.
20:27	hiredman	I'll just run that part of clojurebot on clojrue 1.2.1 forever
20:28	brehaut	lol
20:29	arrdem	w00t my parsers no longer explode!
20:29	brehaut	haha i love that the fnparse docs still list java -cp… as the right way to get fnparse into your project
20:29	hiredman	oh, wait, 2.2.4 maybe I can update some time
20:29	brehaut	and by love i mean :'(
20:30	arrdem	hiredman: if I could figure out your codebase updating it shouldn't be too bad..
20:30	brehaut	~arrows
20:30	clojurebot	arrows is http://ro-che.info/ccc/12.html
20:31	hiredman	http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3sd5vm2YSoA/T8LXHbyyVjI/AAAAAAAABQo/PttNNJhp__8/s1600/Arrowed.JPG
20:31	brehaut	PANASIAN CUISINE
20:53	chessguy	hm. this doesn't work? (defn foo [c] (new c 0 0))
20:58	brehaut	chessguy: new is a special form. its first argument is not evaluated
20:58	lsoa	chessguy: shouldn't that be a macro
20:59	brehaut	chessguy: if you want to runtime instantiation of unknown classes, you probably want to look at .newInstance on the Class class
21:00	brehaut	or perhaps some reflection
21:00	chessguy	fair enough
21:00	chessguy	thanks
21:11	jcromartie	is defstruct dead?
21:11	jcromartie	pretty much right
21:13	arrdem	I think so...
21:13	arrdem	there just isn't a compelling reason for it. either use a raw map or define protocols and a type.
21:13	amalloy	if not, ask someone to hand you a hammer and a stake
21:14	arrdem	~hammer
21:14	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:14	arrdem	~stake
21:14	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:14	amalloy	he's very polite about it though
21:14	arrdem	this much is true.
21:19	gfredericks	apparently rich doesn't like removing things
21:19	gfredericks	(like defstruct)
21:20	TimMc	or taking things out of alpha
21:20	gfredericks	haha
21:21	TimMc	,(binding [print-length 25] (pr (for [[s v] (ns-publics 'clojure.core) :let [d (:doc (meta v))] :when (and d (re-find #"(?i)alpha" d))] s)))
21:21	clojurebot	(add-watch promise pop! deliver assoc! defrecord remove-watch conj! transient ex-info dissoc! deftype persistent! print-readably compiler-options ex-data disj!)
21:22	gfredericks	woah man
21:22	gfredericks	promises are pretty old
21:22	TimMc	print-readably is spurious ("alphanumeric")
21:23	TimMc	and transients, and defrecord...
21:23	TimMc	"transients: may be transient"
21:24	thm_prover	http://hpaste.org/84699 <-- why does "good" work yet 'bad" ends up not working? it gives me an error of "nable to resolve symbol: ocr-4638 in this context, compiling:(main.clj:112:3) class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException"
21:25	jeremyheiler	thm_prover: What is match?
21:25	thm_prover	clojure.core.match
21:28	thoradam	Hello everyone, I just started with Clojure, writing it feels fun but alien, looking for comments, is this fairly idiomatic? https://www.refheap.com/paste/12984
21:30	arrdem	thoradam: well it isn't correct.. shouldn't your base case be (not (zero? depth))
21:30	arrdem	,(not (zero? 1))
21:30	clojurebot	true
21:30	arrdem	,(not (zero? 0))
21:30	clojurebot	false
21:30	dnolen	thm_prover: hrm, it maybe the case that you can't match classes with core.match. I know there's no test case for something like that.
21:31	thm_prover	dnolen: I bet you can't patch this in < 5 minutes. </reverse-psychology>
21:31	thm_prover	dnolen: as a hack, should I do a match on (string (type 20)) and match vs "java.lang.Long" ?
21:31	dnolen	thm_prover: that should probably work
21:32	arrdem	thoradam: other that that, this looks fine.
21:32	arrdem	one could use (inc n) and (dec n) rather than +1 and -1...
21:33	arrdem	not sure if using the set #{} and contains? is "better" than your (or)
21:33	thoradam	arrdem: Hmm, you mean as opposed to (neg? depth), it seems to work. Thanks for the inc dec tip.
21:34	tieTYT2	i need to write a function that checks if a string contains a bunch of substrings in it. I'd like to write something that's like (not-any? (contains s "x") (contains s "y"))... is there a convenient way to write this?
21:39	thm_prover	dnolen: actually, on second thought
21:39	thm_prover	dnolen: could you help me patch match ? I'd like to learn more about pattern matching
21:39	thm_prover	dnolen: and you seem to be afmiliar with the codebase
21:39	dnolen	thm_prover: well I wrote most of it
21:40	thm_prover	dnolen: looks like I win the IRC lottery for today
21:41	arrdem	Ok my turn. Now that I've resolved my fnparse issues, what do you guys think of this?
21:41	arrdem	https://github.com/arrdem/sad
21:42	arrdem	I'm especially concerned about the way I'm structuring the rule name stack in runtime.stack
21:44	thm_prover	dnolen: is the problem with "LiteralPattern" in match.clj ?
21:50	TimMc	Someone posed this question at work: Is there a nice way of getting the map constructor from a defrecord's class object?
21:51	TimMc	(An example of not nice: demunging the fully qualified classname into namespace and record name.)
21:52	leifp	tieTYT2, (not-any? #(.contains s %) ["x" "y" ...])
21:52	amalloy	TimMc: i don't think so. i'm leaning towards the opinion that it might be impossible to have such a feature, but i'm not sure about that
21:52	TimMc	There doesn't even seem to be a good way of getting the order of the fields, which would make the positional constructor useable.
21:53	TimMc	amalloy: How so? There could be a static field with the ns-qualified symbol.
21:53	amalloy	i suppose that's true. i was imagining only bad ways to do it
21:54	amalloy	that has some problems, though, still: an old version of a redefined defrecord would still seem to have a valid constructor function, but it would construct a different class
21:54	TimMc	That's true anyhow.
21:55	TimMc	Getting the constructor for the original classloader... I have no idea how difficult that might be.
22:00	dnolen	thm_prover: that's possible
22:02	akhudek	is there another interface other than Counted for implementing a faster but not constant time count operation?
22:03	dnolen	akhudek: don't think so
22:05	akhudek	hm, that's too bad
22:07	dnolen	akhudek: probably not a big deal to implement it anyway, people call count on seqs.
22:07	chessguy	what's considered idiomatic about sync/dosync and alter? should they always be used in the same function? or is it ok for a function to open a transaction and somehow pass in a function which does the alter?
22:08	akhudek	dnolen: was just worried that it might break the complexity of some standard algorithms
22:08	akhudek	though I guess it will be faster than iterated count!
22:20	supersym	thats enough learning clojure for one night, it can be overwhelming to say the least
22:20	gfredericks	(inc clojure)
22:20	lazybot	⇒ 10
22:21	thm_prover	dnolen: sorry, I got disconnected, if ou said anything about match, can you please repeat it?
22:21	chessguy	supersym: i feel your pain. i've been drinking from a fire hose for the last week or two trying to learn it
22:22	supersym	anyone who can recommend a good resource on actually the process of crafting nested functions? I've never been fullbread functional programmer before
22:22	supersym	yeah... I get along nicely with lists, but it feels like I'm years behind
22:23	gfredericks	supersym: by "nested functions" do you mean just generally working with higher-order-functions?
22:23	chessguy	i'm fortunate in that i spent a few years dabbling in haskell
22:23	supersym	yeah
22:23	supersym	heh... yeah I have xmonad running now so I can learn a bit there as well
22:23	supersym	but I already made peace with the fact that this is gonna be a tough cookie the next year :)
22:23	chessguy	i've always wanted to play with xmonad, but never managed to get it running
22:24	chessguy	supersym: ooh, i can make a recommendation
22:24	chessguy	hang on, let me find it
22:24	chessguy	the sicp videos: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
22:24	chessguy	they're scheme-based, but still largely appropriate for clojure
22:26	amalloy	i prefer the book to the lectures, personally, but both are good; use whichever one suits your preference
22:27	chessguy	agreed, both are good. i tend to learn more from watching videos
22:28	supersym	sweet - thanks
22:28	supersym	i've been trying to mix lispels a bit already to get a better learning effect :)
22:29	chessguy	hm. be careful with that, it sounds like it could get confusing fast
22:31	supersym	perhaps yes, its not like I am going really deep in emacs at the moment, or scheme - but you are probably right with the details of how the languages are implemented
22:31	amalloy	lispels?
22:31	gfredericks	surely it is the plural of lisp
22:31	supersym	:D
22:32	amalloy	i dunno, i would say a lispel is a list: the fundamental construct that makes up a lisp, in the same was a pixel makes up a pixture
22:32	gfredericks	a lispel is a single paren
22:34	danielglauser	gfredericks: please balance that paren
22:35	brehaut	⏝
22:35	gfredericks	I shall not.
22:36	brehaut	that one balances nicely by itself
22:36	gfredericks	"lispel": a left paren; "lisple": a right paren
22:36	supersym	ahhh.. i got it
22:37	supersym	silly me i forgot all about closures ><
22:38	amalloy	don't feel bad. for a long time, so did emacs
22:38	chessguy	haha
22:38	supersym	well i dont know the plural of lisp, lisps I'd say but I'm a n00b... in our language it resembles speaking in a hardly understandable fashion
22:39	chessguy	i'd say lisps too
22:39	supersym	so I figured my attempts are like stuttering
22:39	supersym	yup
22:40	supersym	I work in LT fulltime tho when chrome works
22:40	supersym	I got overtone's emacs-live running
22:40	supersym	but teh insta-repl is such a great feedback/learning tool
22:41	chessguy	Light Table is nice. i've been using it a lot, too. i can't help but feel like i'm not quite using it right, though
22:41	chessguy	like i know Chris has said he pretty much works on Light Table purely within Light Table now, and I can't imagine using LT for anything big the way I use it
22:44	amalloy	chessguy: ibdknox could probably do it with just a pencil
22:44	chessguy	haha, true
22:44	chessguy	that guy's ridiculous
22:44	bbloom	pencil? psha. i code in pen.
22:44	bbloom	but only b/c sharpies are expensive when you write as much code as i do
22:45	bbloom	(disclaimer: i make a ton of mistakes and write and rewrite about a billion times. pencil isn't even remotely malleable enough to handle the number of errors i make. please ignore everything i say)
22:46	shriphani	hello does anyone have experience with incanter ? I am trying to use time-series-plot and I get this: No matching method found: add for class org.jfree.data.xy.XYSeries and I don't invoke add anywhere….
22:48	bbloom	shriphani: use (pst) to print a stack trace & look for your code in the stack
22:51	supersym	down the rabbit hole
22:53	supersym	I physically feel nausea sometimes ... endless possibilities. And looong ago since I had actually had to do some hard work/math
22:54	supersym	chessguy: yeah with Chris, I bet he has tweaked tons of fun parts of the IDE...from what I've seen with that game they were developing
22:54	supersym	I assume you could create extra windows, buttons and what not if you know what to call
22:55	supersym	but since there isnt much documentation,... I haven't snooped around much and don't know enough about reflection to poke around
22:56	supersym	but i also feel something as infinitly flexible as clojure, you can do with notepad even in a great and fun way once you master the language
23:06	danielglauser	supersym: I'm far from a master but I find the tools really help
23:48	supersym	(assoc [2 4 5] 6 7)
23:51	hyPiRion	Uh.
23:51	hyPiRion	"Caused by: java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid method Code length 69270" <- ?
23:53	hyPiRion	Is that some sort of upper limit for Clojure?
23:54	amalloy	hyPiRion: yes. you have a macro expanding to a very large single function, or are AOTing a very large data structure
23:54	xeqi	hyPiRion: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/tlAxjnJE1pA
23:55	hyPiRion	meh
23:55	hyPiRion	Oh well.
23:57	hyPiRion	It's not aot'd though, but oh well.
23:58	ivan	I think it is time to picket Oracle to raise the method size limit
23:59	hyPiRion	Well, it's just... a very long backquote, that's all