#clojure – 2013-01-27

2013-01-27

00:53	cakehero	Hi team
00:53	cakehero	is this answer correct: http://cl.ly/image/0H0T3P320G1o
00:54	Raynes	lol
00:54	Raynes	amalloy: ^
00:54	Raynes	Pretty good one, I'd say.
00:54	cakehero	thanks
00:54	cakehero	I'm super good at algorithms
00:54	cakehero	for finding maximums
00:55	cakehero	Raynes I wonder if I could have it randomly pick from the three numbers, and just re-run it until it gets the right answer
00:55	cakehero	I'm going to try that
00:59	cakehero	Raynes http://cl.ly/image/2m1R0P0z3H2e getting there
01:01	cakehero	http://cl.ly/image/0Q1D1j3T0u1y <--- random
02:31	danbell	Anyone know how to stop a call to reduce in the middle? Say I've got an infinite sequence, and I want to process members of it until $arbitrary-truthy-thing. Anyone know how to do this?
02:31	Raynes	You can't do that.
02:32	amalloy	well. in 1.5 you can do that
02:32	Raynes	What?
02:32	clojurebot	what is exceptions
02:32	amalloy	previous to 1.5, the best you can do is loop/recur, or use reductions and take-while
02:32	Raynes	Reducers crap?
02:32	amalloy	nah, not really related
02:32	Raynes	Then explain, man!
02:32	amalloy	(reduced 10) ;; the answer is 10, stop reducing
02:32	danbell	thanks Raynes; I noticed M. Fogus alluding to "how to short-circuit reduce"
02:33	danbell	oh, reductions might be what I'm looking for
02:34	Raynes	amalloy: What do you mean it isn't related to reducers? I can't find any instance of 'reduced' outside of reducers.
02:34	amalloy	i find reductions often sounds pretty cool, but most of the time using it leads to less readable code
02:35	Raynes	Oh
02:35	Raynes	I'm dumb.
02:35	amalloy	Raynes: support for reduced could have come without all the big reducers changes
02:35	Raynes	I see the reduced function in core.clj now.
02:35	danbell	are reducers considered to be...off?
02:35	amalloy	does that mean something, or is it just...drama?
02:36	Raynes	I called it 'crap' because I haven't bothered learning what it is yet and I hate things I don't understand.
02:36	danbell	ha
02:36	danbell	yeah, was keying off of raynes' crap comment
02:36	amalloy	no, Raynes is just a twit
02:36	amalloy	reducers are pretty cool
02:37	danbell	reading about them now...
02:40	Raynes	I wish somebody other than Rich would write about reducers. He is great and all, but these weird bullet points with questions peppering his blog post confuse me more than they help me.
02:41	Raynes	And he is all "I'll give you the end first <bullet points>. Story starts best at the bottom."
02:41	Raynes	OKAY, MAN, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT REDUCERS NOW!?!?!
02:47	tomoj	do you know Foldable?
03:16	yedi	anyone have guidelines or best practices for writing wrappers of java libraries
03:19	AtKaaZ	hey guys, how would you do this: #{"yes" or "make it settable" or "something [1]"} and have the `or` be ignored or be `,` ?
04:55	grc	Trying to get my head around why ('foo 1 2) => 2. Any explanations?
04:55	tomoj	ah, I understand why there is no INamed in cljs :(
04:55	tomoj	grc: ##('foo {'foo 3})
04:55	lazybot	⇒ 3
04:56	tomoj	&('foo {'bar 3} 2)
04:56	lazybot	⇒ 2
04:56	tomoj	&({'bar 3} 'foo 2)
04:56	lazybot	⇒ 2
04:56	tomoj	make sense now?
04:57	tomoj	(doc get)
04:57	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
04:57	grc	tomoj: Thanks.
04:57	tomoj	symbols, keywords, and maps all act as functions with get-like signatures
04:59	tomoj	I wonder why not (= :foo (0 [:foo])) in cljs
05:25	tomoj	&(mapcat inc)
05:25	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map
06:00	tomoj	I was thinking you could do "extend AProtocol to any type which implements BProtocol but doesn't already have an AProtocol impl" inside a default AProtocol impl
06:00	tomoj	..but then everything satisfies AProtocol
06:01	tomoj	I guess you could put it in a helper function instead of a default
06:39	z3phyr	what do you say about joxa?
06:40	z3phyr	It looks much like clojure.
06:44	tgoossens	Anyone knows a library for working with graphs. Preferably includes loop detection .
06:44	tgoossens	I'm looking at clojure contrib now. But
06:45	tgoossens	maybe some of you know some other interesting stuff
06:49	hcumberd`	:)
06:55	z3phyr	joxa is a mixture of clojure and scheme and targets BEAM
06:56	z3phyr	really, a must try language for clojure fans
07:05	z3phyr	joxa is a language I look to
07:09	saint_cypher	is clojurescript one still a good starting place or is it old and busted?
07:11	z3phyr	saint_cypher : It was a good starting place when I last checked
07:13	z3phyr	and if anybody wants to experiment, try joxa. Its too good IMHO
07:14	saint_cypher	z3phyr: thanks, I just noticed that it hadn't been committed to in a year and still had lein bootstrap in the docs so I had some hesitation.
07:17	hcumberd`	Is there a better / shorter way to write (DataInputStream. (FileInputStream. file)) ?
07:50	rl	hm is there any built-in symbol for current directory when compiling a faile?
07:50	rl	*file
07:50	rl	or do i have to do some processing againast file ?
08:12	rl	nvm, found a solution at http://www.learningclojure.com/2010/03/conditioning-repl.html
08:12	hcumberd`	;)
08:30	tomoj	saint_cypher: there's an M003 branch with somewhat more recent commits
09:45	pepijndevos	dnolen: core.logic/ping
09:48	pepijndevos	I'm staring at dcg.clj. I'm interested in playing with it. But I remember you said somewhere it's slow. It's also littered with todo statements, and quite big for the cosmetic transformation wikipedia makes it out out be.
09:58	ChongLi	are these differences up to date?
09:58	ChongLi	https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/Using-core.logic-with-ClojureScript
09:58	gfredericks	,(take 10 (reify clojure.lang.ISeq (first [this] 42) (more [this] this) (seq [this] this)))
09:58	clojurebot	(42 42 42 42 42 ...)
10:00	maxalwings	Is there any Lobos related tutorial out there?
10:01	pepijndevos	ChongLi: I was wondering the same. Especially FD stuff.
10:15	svjson	I'm running JDK7 on my machine - is there any way to tell leiningen/lein-ring to compile to JRE6-compatible bytecode?
10:20	svjson	there is :javac-options ["-target" "1.6" "-source" "1.6"], but I read that as affecting .java-files included in the leiningen project, not that it will apply to the compiled clojure files. True?
10:24	hyPiRion	svjson: true
10:26	hyPiRion	I'll have a peek
10:26	svjson	hyPiRion: thanks
10:28	svjson	There's the option of downgrading to JDK6, of course. But that would be to take the long way around, to say the least
10:33	hyPiRion	So we're using clojure.core/compile to compile down to bytecode, but I'm not sure how to pass options to that one
10:33	hyPiRion	Currently there's no way of specifying so.
10:34	svjson	Right. So downgrading to JDK6 might be my best bet, anyway then.
10:35	svjson	Seems pacman would have me remove all dependent packages first, and re-install them once JDK6 is in place. Quite a headache :/
10:35	svjson	hyPiRion: Thanks for looking into it, in any case
10:36	hyPiRion	svjson: Sounds messy, couldn't you just install JDK6 and keep JDK7?
10:36	hyPiRion	If I were you, I'd use JDK7 and set LEIN_JAVA_CMD to point to JDK6
10:37	svjson	pacman won't let me. It mentions unresolvable conflicts when trying to install them side by side.
10:38	hyPiRion	huh, strange
10:38	svjson	Probably has to do with how they are packaged. Both 6 & 7 come from the Arch Linux User Repository, so they are not official packages
10:38	svjson	I've had different JDK versions set up side by side on machines in the past, but never on Arch
10:39	hyPiRion	Sounds messy, it's rather simple to set up on Debian (and prolly Ubuntu too)
10:40	svjson	Yeah, agreed
10:42	hyPiRion	There is no spoon.
10:44	svjson	enlive sure is mind-bending. But in a good way :)
10:46	Iceland_jack	As opposed to mind-bending in a bad way ;)
10:47	josteink	svjson: absolutely
10:47	svjson	Iceland_jack: point :)
10:48	josteink	After years and years of template-placeholder oriented web design and OO/control-oriented web design
10:48	josteink	it feels like something new, something -interesting- for once
10:53	svjson	josteink: Exactly what I felt when I ventured down that rabbit hole
10:58	svjson	Turns out that culprit in all this might be clj-json - the project wont compile at all under JDK6.
10:58	svjson	Is there any way to tell which Java version libs are compiled for? I
11:02	svjson	So, moving from clj-json 0.5.3 to 0.5.0 builds on JDK6. What would life be without excitement?
11:03	pepijndevos	Does core.logic have difference lists? and…. is it relevant?
11:03	pepijndevos	http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~fleck/dcgTrans.htm
11:17	pepijndevos	What is the correct check if something is an expression in a macro? list? seq?
11:19	cemerick	it looks like browser-REPL is busted in ClojureScript builds >= 1535 (NPE attempting to compile any namespace that requires clojure.browser.repl). Can anyone confirm this, or call me crazy?
11:20	hyPiRion	,(map (juxt list? seq?) ['(a b c) (list 1 2 3) [1 2 3]])
11:20	clojurebot	([true true] [true true] [false false])
11:20	Bronsa	,((juxt list? seq?) (cons 1 '(2)))
11:20	ChongLi	cemerick: how do I check which cljs version I have? I'm using cljsbuild
11:20	clojurebot	[false true]
11:21	Bronsa	,((juxt list? seq?) (map identity '(2)))
11:21	clojurebot	[false true]
11:21	Bronsa	use seq?
11:26	cemerick	ChongLi: it looks like cljsbuild uses 0.0-1552, which means I must be crazy :-/
11:26	ChongLi	ahhh
11:26	ChongLi	the browser repl is pretty hard to use anyway
11:26	ChongLi	I have no idea how to get it working with my page being served by ring
11:27	ChongLi	seems like it'd be a lot of work
11:27	cemerick	Working on making it easier :-)
11:27	ChongLi	the same origin policy really kills us here
11:27	cemerick	it's just another port number, so same origin doesn't matter
11:27	ChongLi	hmm
11:27	cemerick	though you can't just load the HTML file from disk
11:28	ChongLi	yeah that's what I mean
11:28	ChongLi	the hard part is you need to use a web server
11:29	ChongLi	seems like the cleaner way to go would be to have an in-browser terminal connected to a repl running on cljs-on-cljs
11:29	ChongLi	avoid the web server, avoid the jvm compilation step
11:29	ChongLi	can you run a server in javascript with websockets?
11:30	ChongLi	yeah looks like it
11:30	ChongLi	so you could have an nrepl server running in the browser
11:33	ChongLi	the other idea I like is to run a browser inside light table
11:35	Arxontas_tou_Sko	hello :))
11:36	ChongLi	hi
11:36	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i have a dynamic var,represent a list
11:36	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i want to copy it to an immutable list
11:36	Arxontas_tou_Sko	how can i do it?
11:37	ChongLi	the list is immutable
11:37	ChongLi	only the var is mutable
11:37	Arxontas_tou_Sko	the first list is local binding
11:38	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i want to copy it to a normal immutable list
11:38	ChongLi	I still don't quite understand
11:38	Arxontas_tou_Sko	how to copy a thread local list,to a normal immutable list
11:39	ChongLi	you mean you def'd it with ^:dynamic
11:39	ChongLi	?
11:40	Arxontas_tou_Sko	yes,its dynamic and thread local
11:40	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i want to copy it
11:40	ChongLi	where?
11:40	clojurebot	where is log
11:41	ChongLi	clojure is a functional programming language, you don't copy things around
11:41	ChongLi	that's an imperative concept
11:41	ChongLi	just return the list from a function
11:42	Arxontas_tou_Sko	1 minute sorry
11:46	pepijndevos	why is there now llast :
11:51	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ChongLi: i want to save a thread local var,to a normal var
11:52	ChongLi	&(def ^:dynamic x '(1 2 3))
11:52	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
11:52	ChongLi	ahh
11:52	ChongLi	damn it
11:52	ChongLi	yeah, what you're saying doesn't make sense
11:53	Arxontas_tou_Sko	:)
11:53	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i am newbie
11:53	ChongLi	my advice is not to use thread local vars right now
11:53	ChongLi	they are an advanced feature
11:54	Arxontas_tou_Sko	(def ^:dynamic x '(1 2) ) -->i want to copy the value to an immutable name
11:54	ChongLi	(def y x)
11:54	ChongLi	there you go
11:54	Arxontas_tou_Sko	its causes problems i think
11:54	ChongLi	why?
11:54	clojurebot	why not?
11:55	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i tried it,if you change y ,x also changes!
11:55	ChongLi	yeah, of course
11:55	ChongLi	you're not supposed to change defs
11:55	Bronsa	Arxontas_tou_Sko: #'x is mutable, x returns the immutable value
11:56	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ok guys thx for trying to help me i will read more :)
11:56	ChongLi	Arxontas_tou_Sko: in functional programming you want to think about "what is"
11:56	Bronsa	Arxontas_tou_Sko: http://sprunge.us/dTNG
11:56	ChongLi	not "how to do it"
11:56	ChongLi	you're telling the computer what you think the values of different things are
11:57	ChongLi	you're not telling it how to do its job
12:00	pepijndevos	I forgot how refreshing works...
12:00	pepijndevos	(minikanren)
12:03	gfredericks	pepijndevos: refreshing?
12:03	pepijndevos	gfredericks: when you call fresh on a variable that is already bound
12:04	pepijndevos	I think it's just like le. I the stoce it's just a fresh thing
12:04	gfredericks	you don't call fresh on variables; fresh always gives you new variables
12:04	pepijndevos	*let
12:04	pepijndevos	but i mean, call on a symbol that is already defined
12:04	pepijndevos	(run [q] (fresh q))
12:04	gfredericks	you're shadowing it the same way you might do with let
12:04	pepijndevos	right
12:04	Arxontas_tou_Sko	gfredericks do you know how to get the value of a thread local var,and copy it in a normal var?
12:05	gfredericks	Arxontas_tou_Sko: getting the value of thread-local vars is done by implicitely dereferencing them, the same as a normal var
12:05	gfredericks	(defn thread-local-value-of-x [] x)
12:05	ChongLi	gfredericks: Arxontas_tou_Sko is new
12:06	ChongLi	and seems to be doing something wrong :)
12:06	gfredericks	Arxontas_tou_Sko: you can do (def a-normal-var some-thread-local-var), but this would be highly unidiomatic, as I expect people have said before
12:06	ChongLi	I don't think he's quite understood functional programming
12:07	ChongLi	and seems to be trying to write an imperative program with mutation
12:07	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i will try again thx anyway guys :)
12:07	gfredericks	pepijndevos: (run* [q] (fresh [q] (== q 42))) returns (_0), since the two q's are different variables
12:07	ChongLi	Arxontas_tou_Sko: read SICP
12:07	pepijndevos	yea, makes sense.
12:07	ChongLi	http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
12:08	pepijndevos	gfredericks: I'm doing my own cfg implementation
12:08	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ChongLi functional programming runs in my veins but the flow just started :)
12:08	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ok i will read more :)
12:24	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i want to get the value of a dynamic(thread local var),and make it immutable stored in a normal var
12:24	Arxontas_tou_Sko	one last try
12:24	gfredericks	Arxontas_tou_Sko: what happened when you used the def approach I suggested?
12:24	Arxontas_tou_Sko	the new var shares the mutable value
12:25	Arxontas_tou_Sko	not a copy of it i think...
12:25	gfredericks	what kind of object is this "mutable value"?
12:25	Arxontas_tou_Sko	a list
12:25	gfredericks	a clojure list?
12:25	Arxontas_tou_Sko	yes
12:25	gfredericks	clojure lists are immutable so there is no need to explicitely copy them
12:26	ChongLi	I tried explaining that earlier
12:26	gfredericks	if you (def a-normal-var a-dynamic-var-holding-a-list) then the list is not copied, because there's no need as it's immutable
12:26	gfredericks	but a-normal-var is updated to point to the same list that the dynamic var does
12:27	ChongLi	I think Arxontas_tou_Sko misunderstands the purpose of ^:dynamic
12:27	Arxontas_tou_Sko	^:dynamic mean mutable right?
12:27	gfredericks	no
12:27	gfredericks	normal vars are mutable
12:27	ChongLi	that's technically true but not really helpful at this stage :)
12:28	ChongLi	Arxontas_tou_Sko: think of everything in Clojure as being immutable for now
12:28	ChongLi	write a program without trying to mutate anything
12:28	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ok i so newbie i dont know how to even ask:)
12:28	Arxontas_tou_Sko	bye guys thx for trying
12:28	ChongLi	Arxontas_tou_Sko: wait!
12:29	ChongLi	don't leave
12:29	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ok
12:29	ChongLi	tell me what kind of program you want to write
12:31	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i will try something and maybe come back,thx chongli
12:31	ChongLi	ok
12:31	gfredericks	somebody should change the topic of #clojure to be "Tell us what you're _actually_ trying to do."
12:31	hyPiRion	~anybody
12:31	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
12:32	hyPiRion	gfredericks: ^ that's sufficient
12:32	ChongLi	gfredericks: yeah everybody falls into that trap
12:32	gfredericks	hyPiRion: that's kind of a different purpose
12:32	ChongLi	they ask a question about some very specific implementation detail
12:32	ChongLi	when it may be that their entire approach is wrong
12:32	ChongLi	and so answering the specific question doesn't really help
12:33	weavejester	Has anyone heard of a function for core.logic that chooses a random solution?
12:33	ChongLi	by the way, why is def turned off on lazybot? I thought it'd work to have like 5 defs as a limit before undefing
12:33	hyPiRion	weavejester: isn't rand-nth sufficient?
12:33	gfredericks	weavejester: I've tried to write condr a few times
12:34	weavejester	I mean obviously you can get a seq of all solutions and then randomly choose, but if the number of solutions is very large, it becomes infeasible.
12:34	gfredericks	weavejester: https://gist.github.com/4334295
12:34	hyPiRion	Not that I'm a core.logic guy though.
12:34	weavejester	gfredericks: You said "tried". Does that mean it doesn't work?
12:35	gfredericks	weavejester: I think a good impl of condr would let you customize the distribution based on how deep you want it to search for your random solution
12:35	hyPiRion	weavejester: Do you need the pick to be uniformly distributed over the possibilities?
12:35	gfredericks	weavejester: it works, it's just basic
12:35	gfredericks	when there are an infinite number of solutions you can't pick uniformly of course
12:35	gfredericks	so lots of subtleties around that
12:35	ChongLi	gfredericks: why not?!!
12:35	ChongLi	haha
12:35	weavejester	hyPiRion: As uniformly as possible.
12:35	hyPiRion	weavejester: meh. Otherwise `first` would've been sufficient.
12:36	gfredericks	ChongLi: I'll assume based on 'haha' that the question wasn't serious
12:36	weavejester	Yeah, "first" isn't going to do it :)
12:36	ChongLi	gfredericks: there's gotta be some way to pick a random number which is unbounded
12:36	gfredericks	weavejester: I think a good impl would have to be lower-level too
12:36	gfredericks	ChongLi: there is but not uniformly
12:36	weavejester	But condr looks interesting, and I have a finite solution space.
12:37	ChongLi	what does it even mean to have a uniform distribution in an unbounded space?
12:37	gfredericks	ChongLi: short proof: if the distribution is uniform, then for any X the selection is virtually guaranteed to take more than X bytes to contain
12:37	ChongLi	I guess it means having no samples at all
12:38	gfredericks	so maybe it makes theoretical sense, but there's nothing practical you can do with it
12:38	ChongLi	yeah, not without some magical machine beyond the capabilities of a turing machine
12:38	ChongLi	with infinite speed and infinite storage
12:39	gfredericks	yeah that'd probably make it doable
12:39	weavejester	Turing machines do have infinite storage.
12:39	gfredericks	but you need the infinite speed to get at it :)
12:39	hyPiRion	No need for infinite speed.
12:39	ChongLi	yeah, just infinite time
12:40	hyPiRion	Exactly. As long you can prove it terminates, it's okay.
12:40	weavejester	Well, the "speed" of a Turing Machine is kinda academic, because time doesn't factor into the model.
12:41	gfredericks	come to think of it even with an infinite amount of time I'm not sure what algorithm would uniformly sample the integers
12:41	gfredericks	that's a tricky thing to reason about
12:41	ChongLi	yeah it seems to be a non-computable function
12:41	ChongLi	though I have no proof
12:41	gfredericks	you probably just have to take that as a primitive
12:42	gfredericks	well wait
12:42	ChongLi	uniform sampling just seems to be meaningless when the space is infinite
12:43	gfredericks	if you can generate an infinite list of random bits, you can probably do it that way
12:43	gfredericks	yeah
12:43	ChongLi	it's like asking whether or not you're moving if you're the only particle in an empty universe
12:44	gfredericks	so if you represent the number five as (list* 1 0 1 (repeat 0))
12:44	cemerick	what could make the url of a cljs.closure.JavaScriptFile nil? Based on the provides, the lib in question looks to be part of the third party bits in goog.async (http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/closure_third_party_closure_goog_mochikit_async_deferred.js.source.html)
12:45	gfredericks	then (defn rand-non-negative-int [] (repeatedly (rand-int 2)))
12:45	pepijndevos	I keep thinking dcg should be implemented with defrel, but I can't see how to actually do it.
12:45	HolyJak	Emacs question: How do I jump to a particular namespace such as clojure.core (to browse it)? M-. can jump to a var in a ns but not to a ns itself. I'm using nRepl in Emacs. Thanks!
12:46	ChongLi	jeez what is up with that page?
12:46	ChongLi	dark gray on light gray?
12:47	pepijndevos	wait…. multimethod + conde… would that work. need more tea
12:58	seangrove	Hrm, this reminds me of ohpauleez's leap motion hacking http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2012/07/16/the-amazing-digital-gloves-that-give-voice-to-the-voiceless/
13:08	TheComrade	Howdy. Is it appropriate to ask IDE/plugin-specific workflow questions in here?
13:09	gfredericks	probably; though IDE users are a minority I think
13:10	bawr	It's an Emacs land. :<
13:10	ChongLi	some people use eclipse
13:10	ChongLi	I think cemerick does
13:10	TheComrade	Yeahhhhh so I read. I am starting to see why.
13:10	ChongLi	starting to see why? how so?
13:11	TheComrade	So I'm running IntelliJ + La Clojure + Leiningen? various tutorials all are pretty simple, there are shortcuts to run selected text or load a file into a REPL, no problem. But...
13:13	TheComrade	I can't figure out simple stuff like, switch the focus to the REPL without clicking on it. :(. Or like, why the Run menu has four Run / Debug options (run core, debug core, run, debug). Like, it feels like the expected dev process is to load a file with a shortcut, then click on the REPL, then do something like (ns leintest.core) and then type (foo)? This seems extremely cumbersome.
13:14	ChongLi	ah
13:14	ChongLi	are you a long-time intellij user?
13:14	TheComrade	Nope, just grabbed it.
13:14	ChongLi	ah, you may want to try some other stuff then
13:14	pietu	TheComrade: alt + 4 toggles the repl
13:15	TheComrade	pietu, thanks. How would I have learned that? :)
13:16	TheComrade	(osx)
13:17	pietu	TheComrade: well there aren't so much to do with idea than load file to repl (cmd + sift F10) and toggle repl
13:18	pietu	but if you go to setting -> keybindings (or similar) you can find the shortcuts
13:18	TheComrade	so alt+4 must be an IDEA shortcut, it's not listed in La Clojure shortcuts
13:18	pietu	there's also a plugin that alerts key shortcut when you use your mouse
13:18	pietu	yeah, idea shortcut
13:19	pietu	and sorry, cmd + sift F10 opens the repl
13:19	pietu	cmd + sift + l loads file in it
13:20	pietu	but as said, if possible, try emacs :)
13:20	ChongLi	yeah try emacs
13:20	ChongLi	emacs is fantastic
13:20	ChongLi	if you're going to learn something new, might as well
13:20	pietu	LaClojure plugin is quite good, but doesn't play with same league with emacs
13:21	pietu	/s/with/in
13:21	arrdem	I too will vote for emacs.. I made the vimclojure -> emacs+nrepl switch about a month back and I'm loving it.
13:21	charliegriefer	TheComrade - I'm about to start week 3 of "force myself to use Emacs". It's been way less scary than I thought it was going to be.
13:21	TheComrade	Mk, I will try this out. I am by nature a CLI / Linux guy but everytime I've tried emacs I feel like I'm fighting horrible documentation and alpha-stage plugins.. but I'll give it another go
13:21	TheComrade	really worth spending weeks of learning curve? :)
13:22	charliegriefer	it's certainly not "foce myself" mode anymore. was over that within the first couple of days.
13:22	ChongLi	TheComrade: the key to learning emacs is C-h f along with ido mode
13:22	charliegriefer	I had a cheat sheet up on the laptop while i worked on the desktop
13:22	charliegriefer	helped out quite a bit
13:22	seangrove	Who is this mike anderson from nuroko, and is he in here?
13:22	charliegriefer	i knew what I needed to do, just didn't know the command. so, glanced over at the cheat sheet.
13:22	ChongLi	makes it very easy to find functions thanks to fuzzy completion
13:23	arrdem	charliegriefer: from heroku I think you meant...
13:23	TheComrade	Cool. Thanks, I will give emacs a go for this.
13:23	arrdem	yeah A-tab fuzzy complete is epic
13:23	arrdem	Okay. Meta-Tab
13:23	seangrove	Will the real Mike Anderson please stand up?
13:23	cemerick	damn, here's the reason why I've been struggling with cljs and browser-repl all day: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418
13:23	arrdem	Mr. Anderson....
13:23	cemerick	:-(
13:24	ChongLi	fuzzy completion is the greatest thing ever
13:25	seangrove	cemerick: Yeah, that one sucks
13:25	TheComrade	You guys using this? http://emacsformacosx.com/
13:25	ChongLi	TheComrade: I'm using linux
13:25	seangrove	Took a month for domina to pull in a pr for the README to tell users to add it to their deps :P
13:25	ChongLi	I've heard aquamacs is the most recommended osx version
13:27	TheComrade	Do you use 23 or 24?
13:27	ChongLi	latest version
13:28	TheComrade	Well the latest aquamacs is 23.3 ? I seem to recall the last time I looked at emacs there was some debate about whether to stay with 23 or switch to 24
13:28	cemerick	seangrove: what I don't grok is why the dep wasn't just added straight off...
13:28	ChongLi	oh, huh
13:28	ChongLi	yeah use 24 then
13:28	seangrove	cemerick: Yeah, I could have put that in the pr, I suppose. But didn't know if there was a reason it wasn't there
13:29	seangrove	Or do you mean just to the clojurescript distro?
13:29	ChongLi	cemerick: you still use eclipse + CCW?
13:29	cemerick	seangrove: yeah, in the cljs release pom
13:29	cemerick	ChongLi: yes
13:29	ChongLi	TheComrade here is wondering about what IDE to use
13:29	ChongLi	we suggested emacs
13:29	seangrove	That'd be nice i suppose. Was definitelyt confused by the split - I understand the licensing, but the outcome was a bit painful
13:30	ChongLi	perhaps you can make a case for eclipse + CCW
13:30	cemerick	too busy for tool advocacy at the moment :-)
13:30	ChongLi	I'm guessing eclipse will have a shallower learning curve
13:30	ChongLi	haha
13:30	TheComrade	lol
13:30	cemerick	TheComrade: use what you know; don't take on a new tool and a new language at the same time.
13:31	ChongLi	TheComrade: hmm, I guess aquamacs isn't recommended anymore
13:31	cemerick	I think I may just make that my default response on all tooling questions from here on out.
13:31	ChongLi	cemerick: haha
13:31	TheComrade	It's very concise advice.
13:32	ChongLi	TheComrade: what do you traditionally use?
13:32	gfredericks	the notepad plugin for clojure is not very advanced
13:32	ChongLi	at the very least you need something to help you match parens
13:32	seangrove	Meh, I learned ruby, rails, and emacs at the same time
13:32	seangrove	But that was pretty painful, in hindsight
13:33	ChongLi	writing in any lisp has got to be a nightmare without that
13:33	cemerick	gfredericks: yes, there are some reasonable expectations
13:33	callenbot	is anyone here using CLJS with Node.js?
13:34	ChongLi	callenbot: running clojurescript on the server?
13:34	TheComrade	ChongLi, Mostly Jetbrains stuff for php, flash builder for AS3 (worked three years on FB games for take-a-guess). Used Netbeans to write a Java/ANTLR utility
13:34	cemerick	,(rand-nth #{:ccw :intellij :emacs :textmate :sublime :vim})
13:34	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashSet>
13:34	cemerick	oh brother
13:34	callenbot	other than ibdknox.
13:34	callenbot	ChongLi: yes
13:34	ChongLi	TheComrade: zynga?
13:34	cemerick	,(rand-nth [:ccw :intellij :emacs :textmate :sublime :vim])
13:34	clojurebot	:ccw
13:34	TheComrade	ayup
13:34	cemerick	proof that the universe is aligned ^^
13:34	gfredericks	cemerick: you rigged it!
13:35	cemerick	,(rand-nth [:ccw :intellij :emacs :textmate :sublime :vim])
13:35	clojurebot	:sublime
13:35	cemerick	oh, that would've been too good
13:35	gfredericks	somebody submit a jira ticket to amend the rand-nth docstring to say "chosen by cemerick"
13:35	ChongLi	callenbot: I asked about this the other day
13:35	ChongLi	and it was recommended against
13:35	cemerick	rand-nth-as-a-service
13:35	callenbot	ChongLi: Prismatic does it...
13:36	callenbot	ChongLi: why was it recommended against?
13:36	ChongLi	I was told that clojure + ring etc. on the jvm is better on a server
13:36	callenbot	ChongLi: yeah but Node.js has way better libraries.
13:36	weavejester	callenbot: Out of interest, what libraries in particular were you thinking about?
13:36	ChongLi	I don't know anything about node.js libs
13:37	ChongLi	TheComrade: so is clojure your first functional programming language?
13:37	ChongLi	err, I guess that'd probably be AS3
13:38	ChongLi	though you might not have used a functional style
13:39	pietu	TheComrade: I hava now been using idea for a year and a half with clojure and clojurescript, about to change to emacs + evil mode
13:39	ChongLi	TheComrade: not recommended btw!
13:39	TheComrade	ChongLi, I've been reading up 'pure functional' for years, but haven't dug in. I discovered along the way that I was sort of unconsciously using functional ideas in AS3, like computing return values whenever possible instead of manipulating state
13:40	ChongLi	if you think learning emacs is hard, learning it with evil mode is just insane
13:40	TheComrade	ChongLi, Hah
13:40	pietu	anyways, idea works. no doubt about it and if you are familiar with it, i suggest you to go with idea
13:40	ChongLi	TheComrade: yeah, you've got an intuitive grasp on the concepts demonstrated in "out of the tarpit"
13:41	callenbot	weavejester: Swig, SocketIO, Jade, Mongoose, node-flask-router, Express, Everyauth, scss-js, emailjs.
13:41	ChongLi	http://shaffner.us/cs/papers/tarpit.pdf
13:41	ChongLi	I'm actually reading this right now, I just keep getting interrupted :)
13:42	TheComrade	ChongLi, I'll check out that link. Yeah, intuitive is a good word for it. I know what feels clean but I'd be hard pressed to spit out a formal definition
13:43	weavejester	callenbot: Could you give an example of how they're better than the equivalent Clojure libraries?
13:43	callenbot	I'm writing that out right now.
13:44	weavejester	callenbot: Everyauth looks more mature than any Clojure equivalent
13:44	callenbot	weavejester: can't get anything like Jade or Swig in Clojure, SocketIO integration story sucks on Clojure compared to Node.js, Mongoose is a nice interface to MongoDB although I don't doubt the werkz guys have something there, node-flask-router and Express could be mimicked by a Ring app but it's a pale comparison. The excessive minimalism hurts the Clojure community here. Everyauth is a joy and things like friend and sandbar really d
13:44	maio	pietu: I switched to Emacs+Evil from Vim ~ year ago
13:44	pietu	maio: how does it feel?
13:44	callenbot	the templating Jade/Swig/Django/Jinja templates issue is a drum I've been beating for a very long time in here. that shouldn't surprise anybody.
13:45	weavejester	callenbot: What about Clabango?
13:45	callenbot	the websockets story for Clojure doesn't seem to be well integrated into the Ring/Jetty stack so you have to run two servers.
13:45	callenbot	which sucks, you can use one code-base in Node.js
13:46	maio	pietu: well it feels good, but I'm editor/configuration freak .) I switched because I wanted to do some Clojure development but since I switched I have been playing with Emacs-Lisp and not with Clojure... :)
13:46	callenbot	weavejester: I had the impression it wasn't usable yet. I'd been eyeballing another equivalent. I'll take a look.
13:46	ChongLi	how the heck did such an ecosystem spring up in node?
13:46	weavejester	callenbot: You can run it in the same code base using Aleph, but websockets and HTTP are fundementally two different protocols.
13:46	callenbot	ChongLi: they give a shit about webapps.
13:46	weavejester	callenbot: My preference for templating is Hiccup, so I haven't really looked at the alternatives closely.
13:46	callenbot	weavejester: another irritation is that there's nothing like Flask's g object in Ring. I have to explicitly kick around every single little variable and the keyword argument syntax in Clojure is a travesty.
13:46	pietu	maio: sounds like my colleague
13:47	arrdem	So what makes Clojure feel so much less crufty than common lisp?
13:47	callenbot	weavejester: I "settled" on Hiccup but as it stands I'm less productive in Clojure than Python or Node.js atm.
13:47	callenbot	weavejester: being able to invoke {% if g.user %} in any given template thanks to the RequestContext lifecycle in Flask is amazing
13:47	callenbot	and saves a lot of goddamn time
13:47	ChongLi	Clojure's built on standard abstractions and uses very nice, clean syntax for literals
13:47	maio	pietu: but now I'm ready for some Clojure finally :) I started to write 2 toy projects in it few days ago
13:48	callenbot	arrdem: I used to do CL before Python, trust me, Clojure is way less crufty.
13:48	weavejester	callenbot: Is there a reason you can't use a dynamic binding to achieve the same result?
13:48	pietu	maio: main thing to move from idea is to get more lightweight dev env, idea works just fine with Repl and everything, but it's just too much
13:48	callenbot	weavejester: it needs to reset with the request lifecycle ala Kiln.
13:48	arrdem	callenbot: I know it is. I just spent a week and a half hacking CL and I'm trying to put my finger on why I don't like it besides lack of internet docs
13:48	ChongLi	the focus on immutability, the standard persistent data structures
13:49	callenbot	arrdem: I mean I could explain the culture if you want, but you seem to know what's up already.
13:49	ChongLi	also the LISP-2 thing is just... I'm sorry
13:49	weavejester	callenbot: In general, my preference is toward tight lexical scoping over more global variables. The latter make things easier, but more complex, because they tie each part of your application to a huge mass of data.
13:49	ChongLi	funcall everywhere
13:49	callenbot	weavejester: I need arbitrary access to a request context scoped user object
13:50	weavejester	callenbot: Why doesn't a dynamic binding do that?
13:50	ChongLi	hashquoting everything
13:50	arrdem	ChongLi: could you elaborate on that? of all the lisp lore I've consumed L1 vs L2 is the thing I get the least
13:50	callenbot	weavejester: I don't know how I would make it scoped to the serving of each request individually.
13:50	ChongLi	arrdem: in clojure if you say (def a 32)
13:50	callenbot	weavejester: because I don't know enough about the semantics of RIng.
13:50	callenbot	Ring*
13:50	ChongLi	and (def b (fn [x] (+ x x))
13:50	ChongLi	a and b occupy the same namespace
13:51	Bronsa	(map inc [1 2 3 4]) vs (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 3 4))
13:51	callenbot	weavejester: are just talking an init and kill middleware here or what?
13:51	arrdem	right... :cl-user by default or user/
13:51	ChongLi	I don't mean that sort of namespace
13:51	weavejester	callenbot: No, middleware that adds a binding form around your handler
13:51	maio	pietu: do you use Vim a lot?
13:51	arrdem	ChongLi: oh name binding scope
13:51	callenbot	weavejester: it's not just the handler, the template has to be able to access the user too.
13:52	callenbot	and any other code I invoke
13:52	callenbot	like a utility function
13:52	ChongLi	arrdem: here's a clearer example
13:52	pietu	maio: not a lot, mut yeah, i use it quite a lot
13:52	weavejester	callenbot: It would, because the template would be called by the handler.
13:53	callenbot	you have to explicitly pass all bindings to clabango AFAIK
13:53	ChongLi	say you call (defn foo [] #(+ % %))
13:53	weavejester	callenbot: https://gist.github.com/4649745
13:53	ChongLi	now foo is a function that returns a function
13:53	ChongLi	in clojure you can do this ((foo) 3 4)
13:54	callenbot	weavejester: I still have to manually pass every binding. I don't have globals unless I write a macro. (render-file "example/templates/index.html" {:greeting "Hey!"}))
13:54	maio	pietu: if I could I would skip Evil part of my switch to Emacs as it would save me a lot of time. But I have been using Vim for a loong time so that was no option for me
13:54	ChongLi	inbut in a lisp-2 you have to use funcall
13:54	callenbot	actually that's a really good idea.
13:54	callenbot	I'll just write a macro.
13:54	arrdem	ChongLi: ah that's irritating
13:54	weavejester	I mentally wince every time "global state" is mentioned :)
13:55	callenbot	weavejester: I don't care about aesthetics, I just need to be building things efficiently.
13:55	ChongLi	stuff like (funcall #'+ 3 4)
13:55	pietu	maio: yeah, that's kind of boost for me too, besides my colleague sitting next to me has just got everything working so
13:55	callenbot	weavejester: I am homo economicus, if there's something that'll help me build faster, I'm gonna use that. if Clojure can't be on top of that pile because the community is too fussy then I can't use it.
13:55	ChongLi	arrdem: actually the best example is in a function like map
13:56	weavejester	callenbot: It's not about aesthetics. You're essentially trading short term speed for long term complexity.
13:56	ChongLi	in CL it's called mapcar
13:56	weavejester	Which in some cases is a good trade-off
13:56	ChongLi	and it is called like this
13:56	callenbot	weavejester: that's a consciously made decision
13:56	ChongLi	(mapcar #'not '(t nil t nil t nil))
13:56	callenbot	weavejester: I build things to test hypotheses. Refactors can happen later, I need to shotgun out as many projects as quickly as possible to determine what's worthwhile
13:56	ChongLi	which returns (NIL T NIL T NIL T)
13:56	maio	pietu: then go for it. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't regret it :)
13:57	ChongLi	mapcar's implementation almost certainly uses funcall
13:57	pietu	maio: yep, I might bug you in future though :)
13:57	weavejester	That's reasonable, so long as your applications have nothing in common.
13:58	weavejester	Or are different enough that there are no common pieces of functionality that could be shared.
13:58	callenbot	weavejester: they have basic CRUD on the backend in common, it's mostly frontend variation.
13:58	weavejester	I find that web applications tend to have a lot of things in common
13:58	callenbot	uhm, sure? but the Clojure community seems to hate web frameworks that eliminate a lot of that duplicated work so I'm left managing it myself.
13:58	yedi	anyone have guidelines or best practices for writing wrappers of java libraries
13:58	callenbot	modulo yogthos\|away 's efforts anyway.
13:59	maio	pietu: ok! good luck :)
13:59	ChongLi	yedi: why write a wrapper?
13:59	weavejester	callenbot: Frameworks tackle duplication effectively through copy-and-paste.
13:59	arcatan	hmm, i've been heavy Vim user and now I'm using Emacs for Clojure work. tried out Evil, but it was just in the way.
13:59	ChongLi	arcatan: evil just bends my brain
14:00	ChongLi	I was a heavy vim user and now an emacs user
14:00	arrdem	arcatan: TBH I'm liking not <esc> mashing in emacs
14:00	callenbot	weavejester: see, aesthetics again.
14:00	ChongLi	arrdem: why are you mashing <esc>?
14:00	callenbot	weavejester: I don't care. I don't care if it's built from the bone and sinew of babies. I want more productivity, period, end of story.
14:01	yedi	ChongLi: figured it was the best way to go. Writing a clojrue wrapper to help access the library to a more clojurish api and to try and hide state in the java lib
14:01	arrdem	ChongLi: jumping command mode to insert mode and back
14:01	ChongLi	arrdem: ahh, why not use C-[
14:01	ChongLi	?
14:01	arrdem	ChongLi: didn't know it existed XP
14:02	weavejester	callenbot: I'm not sure that prefering functions over copy-and-paste is necessarily all "aesthetics"
14:02	ChongLi	yedi: ah, yeah as long as you aren't wrapping to try and build some portable library across clojure and clojurescript
14:02	hyPiRion	Oh wow, so using Emacs, Vim or Emacs+Evil is based on subjectivity and not objective explanations?
14:02	maio	(key-chord-define evil-insert-state-map (kbd "jk") 'evil-normal-state) :)[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C
14:02	ChongLi	that would just be silly
14:02	arrdem	hyPiRion: Yep! welcome to the editor war..
14:02	weavejester	If we accept that code reuse through functions is a better idea than code reuse through code generation
14:02	hyPiRion	arrdem: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
14:02	arrdem	maio: STHAP WUTRUDOING
14:03	arrdem	hyPiRion: 404 there
14:03	callenbot	weavejester: fine, then link these functions you're using to be so productive.
14:03	hyPiRion	arrdem: Works fine here, strange.
14:03	yedi	ChongLi: any advice?
14:04	weavejester	callenbot: Admittedly all the functions I want don't yet exist :)
14:04	ChongLi	yedi: general advice? hmmm, it's tough to say
14:04	arrdem	hyPiRion: dropped the trailing L
14:04	weavejester	callenbot: But neither do all the frameworks
14:04	weavejester	callenbot: And if we have a choice in direction - whether to go framework heavy or function heavy
14:04	ChongLi	it depends on what library I guess
14:04	hyPiRion	http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.txt should work too.
14:04	callenbot	weavejester: well, people are out there making things with these web frameworks
14:04	weavejester	callenbot: Then the latter is what we should be developing.
14:05	callenbot	weavejester: you're complaining about something real that is helping people make things and suggesting an alternative you admit hasn't really developed into something that really exists at the moment.
14:05	weavejester	callenbot: Something real? What do you mean?
14:06	callenbot	show me what to use to be as productive as using a web framework would be, without using the framework.
14:06	weavejester	callenbot: Are you talking about web frameworks that exist for other languages, or web frameworks that exist for Clojure?
14:06	ChongLi	yedi: I guess the best advice I can give is to go about building a mini-DSL
14:06	callenbot	weavejester: Clojure is fine, I just want to know how to eliminate all that CRUD work.
14:07	arrdem	callenbot: .... what crud work?
14:07	ChongLi	try to focus on dealing with clojure data structures like maps, vectors and sets
14:08	hyPiRion	callenbot: It's not the crud work, it's the web interface you talk about I suppose
14:08	hyPiRion	CRUD in Clojure is just map manipulations.
14:08	callenbot	I don't really care what you call it, I just want to factor out the duplication and focus on the differentiated bits.
14:09	hyPiRion	It helps if everyone has the same idea of what the problem is, isn't it?
14:09	weavejester	What duplication?
14:09	hyPiRion	/s/isn't/doesn't/
14:09	yedi	ChongLi: thanks
14:10	ChongLi	yedi: yeah, generally follow the guiding Clojure philosophy
14:10	ChongLi	stick to mostly pure functions on Clojure data structures
14:10	callenbot	weavejester: okay here's a specific one for you, how do I do websockets in Clojure with my webapp without running two different leiningen projects?
14:11	weavejester	callenbot: Have you tried using Aleph?
14:11	callenbot	weavejester: this is, mind you, a single git clone away in Node.js land, they have Express+SocketIO templates with best practices exemplified built right now.
14:11	callenbot	weavejester: can I do my whole webapp with Ring+Aleph? I was under the impression you couldn't push to the browser client like that.
14:11	callenbot	which destroys the whole purpose of websockets.
14:11	callenbot	so we've already failed the comparison with Node.js by it not being a single git clone away to being a template, but lets see how deep this rabbit-hole goes
14:11	weavejester	callenbot: What gave you that impression?
14:12	callenbot	what does it take to write a unified webapp that can do the normal HTTP as well as websockets in Clojure?
14:12	callenbot	if it exists, where's the leiningen template?
14:13	callenbot	weavejester: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10967426/clojure-webbit-ring "Ring defines only request-response cycle, there’s no push in Ring SPEC. You can write webbit ring adapter, but it will only allow you to react to the events happening in browser, without the ability to notify browser from server side."
14:13	weavejester	callenbot: I don't believe there is a template, but it would only save you writing a few lines of code.
14:13	ChongLi	callenbot: I guess node.js is basically state of the art for working with websockets?
14:13	callenbot	nota bene there is no Ring/Webbit adapter AFAICT
14:13	callenbot	ChongLi: and writing web apps in general
14:14	ChongLi	callenbot: you probably want to use node.js then
14:14	callenbot	god fucking dammit I really don't.
14:14	callenbot	the callback spaghetti is horrendous.
14:14	weavejester	callenbot: Because Ring abstracts HTTP, not web sockets. Aleph sits on top and handles both protocols.
14:14	ChongLi	callenbot: http://brianmckenna.org/blog/cps_transform_js
14:14	callenbot	weavejester: is there an example of doing this I can learn from that will work with a simple client-side websockets demo?
14:15	weavejester	callenbot: There's a wiki page on using Aleph with HTTP here: https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP
14:16	weavejester	callenbot: I don't believe anyone's created a full application yet, but I could whip something up.
14:18	callenbot	weavejester: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6411070/nodejs-socket-io-simple-client-server-example-not-working how long would it take you to make a working demo app like that?
14:18	callenbot	which had a working bidirectional websocket on the frontend
14:19	weavejester	callenbot: Let me put something together for you now
14:29	ChongLi	I wonder what it'll look like when cljs is fully fleshed out
14:29	yedi	weavejester going above and beyond
14:29	yedi	it's not fully fleshed out?
14:29	ChongLi	in terms of ecosystem
14:29	ChongLi	and tooling
14:29	yedi	i c
14:30	ChongLi	I can imagine writing a single codebase that encompasses client and server in a very natural and idiomatic fashion
14:30	technomancy	callen: your bot is saying some strange things about node.js having a more mature library ecosystem than the JVM; you might want to check its logic circuits.
14:30	ChongLi	hahaha
14:30	technomancy	possibly some kind of positronic interference
14:30	arrdem	(inc technomancy)
14:30	lazybot	⇒ 45
14:31	ChongLi	we'll have to do a tachyon sweep
14:31	callen	technomancy: you raaaaang?
14:31	yedi	ChongLi: you think cljs will eventually replace clojure in doing the back end of web applications
14:31	ChongLi	yedi: no, it'll supplement it
14:32	ChongLi	I don't think you'll ever be able to replace JVM's library ecosystem
14:32	technomancy	where'd I put my voight-kampf unit again?
14:33	arrdem	technomancy: other jumpsuit
14:33	arrdem	left pocket
14:33	callen	technomancy: Choice. No but seriously the whole obsession with frontend web Node.js has combined with the raw numbers of people banging away has led to an impressive ecosystem.
14:35	gfredericks	the primary effect from my perspective is the greater frequency of tweets about node.js programmers reinventing things
14:36	callen	gfredericks: nevertheless, if I need to setup a websocket + messaging server I can do so in node.js trivially. If they're so silly and pointless, why not provide a superset of what they offer?
14:37	ChongLi	"Given that we are considering the ideal world, it is not unreasonable to assume that the next step is to simple execute these formal requirements directly on our underlying general purpose infrastructure."
14:37	ChongLi	I love that
14:38	callen	https://github.com/jaymedavis/hubble case in point, really.
14:53	ChongLi	ohhh
14:54	ChongLi	google image search has a nice new lightbox-style feature
14:59	fakedrake	hello
14:59	ChongLi	hi
15:00	fakedrake	what is the correct way to define html snippets in hiccup (like noir's defpartial)?
15:00	ChongLi	I think it's defhtml
15:01	ChongLi	there's also defelem
15:01	ChongLi	http://weavejester.github.com/hiccup/hiccup.def.html
15:02	weavejester	callenbot: Take a look at https://github.com/weavejester/websocket-example
15:02	weavejester	It mimics the node.js example you supplied earlier.
15:03	fakedrake	hmm, I am currently to just substitute defpartial with defmacro
15:03	fakedrake	i will try defelem
15:03	ChongLi	weavejester: am I right? fakedrake wants help with hiccup here
15:03	weavejester	fakedrake: You can just use a function
15:03	arrdem	weavejester: is :require :all the new :use?
15:04	weavejester	defelem defines a function with some additional code to accept an optional attribute list.
15:04	weavejester	So if I wrote: (defelem link-to [url text] [:a {:href url} text])
15:04	weavejester	Then I could write: (link-to {:class "foo"} "/blog.html" "Blog")
15:04	fakedrake	weavejester: is that preferable to defelem?
15:05	fakedrake	ah
15:05	weavejester	defelem is only if you want that extra attribute map.
15:05	weavejester	Otherwise you can use defn
15:05	fakedrake	weavejester: thank you!
15:05	weavejester	There's also a defhtml for performance, which serializes directly into strings, but prefer defn unless you find things running slowly.
15:05	weavejester	arrdem: Basically, yes. :)
15:06	fakedrake	weavejester: why is defn not good with attributes?
15:06	ChongLi	it's nice to be able to come in here and get support from the library author
15:06	technomancy	arrdem: :require/:refer/:all, yes, but don't use it except for a very small number of cases
15:07	fakedrake	like so: (defn link-to [url text] [:a {:href url} text])
15:07	weavejester	fakedrake: defn is just the normal Clojure function. It doesn't automatically add an optional attributes arguement.
15:07	technomancy	pretty much just in test cases and live-coding
15:07	arrdem	technomancy: I figured.
15:07	weavejester	Er, normal Clojure macro
15:07	fakedrake	aha now i get it
15:07	fakedrake	nice
15:07	weavejester	technomancy: I use it sometimes for things like core.logic
15:07	weavejester	Or if I have a namespace dedicated to a single library
15:08	weavejester	Like Compojure routes, or core.logic, or a Hiccup template.
15:09	weavejester	But in the example I posted, maybe it would be better to be explicit, so that it's obvious where the functions come from.
15:10	arrdem	Understood that it's unhygenic to just :refer :all, but is there anything strictly wrong with it besides that you drag in refs to stuff you may not be using?
15:11	weavejester	arrdem: Nope
15:11	ChongLi	if you qualify it
15:12	ChongLi	it makes it easier to see where all the functions come from
15:12	ChongLi	which can be helpful sometimes
15:12	ChongLi	just imagine bringing in 10 namespaces at once
15:13	ChongLi	besides the possibility of collisions, you're likely to forget where functions are from
15:13	callenbot	weavejester: danke
15:19	mae	how do I quote a symbol in a macro? like I really need to give it a symbol but it keeps qualifying it to user/
15:19	arrdem	mae: ~'foo if I remember..
15:19	arrdem	,(macroexpand `(~'foo))
15:19	clojurebot	(foo)
15:20	mae	dude, amazing, thank you so much
15:20	arrdem	mae: no problem
15:20	ChongLi	mae: writing an anaphoric macro?
15:21	TimMc	ChongLi: Or a reify-producing macro -- you need it there as well.
15:21	mae	i have no idea what that means, hehe
15:22	mae	i am just hacky hacking, i'm an inductive/kinesthetic learner, I learn from the bottom up
15:22	arrdem	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro
15:22	ChongLi	mae: an anaphoric macro is one that captures a symbol deliberately
15:22	mae	gotcha
15:22	ChongLi	allowing you to refer to things with words like "it"
15:22	ChongLi	leading to more natural english-like expressions
15:23	ChongLi	ahhhh
15:24	TimMc	...but potentially hella confusing.
15:24	ChongLi	why does chrome tab-complete to a domain name before tab-completing to a search engine I've specified?
15:25	ChongLi	now I have to clear my whole browsing history to fix this
15:25	fakedrake	how do i tell ring to publish my .js and .css files?
15:26	ChongLi	fakedrake: you want a wrap-resource middleware
15:26	ChongLi	http://ring-clojure.github.com/ring/ring.middleware.resource.html
15:27	fakedrake	thnx! ill take a look
15:30	fakedrake	http://clojurewise.blogspot.gr/2011/03/static-resources-in-compojure-uberjar.html
15:30	fakedrake	this one is more like what i needed, i should have asked for a compojure way to do it
15:30	ChongLi	fakedrake: ah, I used wrap-resource myself
15:31	ChongLi	it's still pretty straightforward
15:53	seangrove	It'd be very cool if you could trace the file-size of my cljs file down to the namespaces
15:54	seangrove	My advanced-optimized cljs file is ~400kb, would be nice to know where it comes from
16:01	Arxontas_tou_Sko	anyone using counterclockwise? how to stop auto-close parenthensis?
16:01	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i type ( and it closes automatically
16:01	ChongLi	Arxontas_tou_Sko: that's a feature :)
16:02	ChongLi	in Clojure you almost never want unbalanced parentheses
16:03	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i know can i cancel it?
16:03	Arxontas_tou_Sko	it make me dizzy
16:03	hyPiRion	ave a look at preferences, and you would most likely find
16:03	hyPiRion	something.
16:03	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i tried preferences
16:03	Schaefer	you are in strict/paredit mode
16:04	Arxontas_tou_Sko	if i uncheck that it will go away??
16:04	lazybot	Arxontas_tou_Sko: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
16:04	Schaefer	you can toggle off by Alt-D in windows. check the clojure popup menu in the editor
16:06	Arxontas_tou_Sko	you are in strict/paredit mode?? i uncheked that but it still auto close them
16:07	Schaefer	i think that's a new default behavior in the non-strict mode. laurent is going to change that in the next release, i think
16:07	Arxontas_tou_Sko	its default
16:07	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i update it today
16:07	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i am stuck in hell
16:08	Schaefer	i can't imagine not using non-strict anyway
16:08	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i cant stop it right?
16:09	Schaefer	i don't think so
16:09	Arxontas_tou_Sko	ok thx :)
16:09	Schaefer	not sure how the non-strict behavior works
16:09	Arxontas_tou_Sko	maybe its better but it make me dizzy
16:10	Schaefer	i used to have the same problem. clarity came to me when i stopped thinking of CCW as a text editor but rather a data structure editor
16:10	ChongLi	yeah
16:11	ChongLi	that's what you do when you write lisp code
16:11	ChongLi	you're building data structures
16:11	ChongLi	not really writing text
16:11	Schaefer	exactly. that new way of thinking really changed my approach to programming
16:13	inavat	hello
16:13	ChongLi	hi
16:13	Schaefer	hi
16:16	inavat	I want to use Clojure for a program I want to write, but the program is a command-line utility that should be responsive, so I'm worried about the startup time. Does anyone know, is this a problem that people are working on fixing, or has it been decided that Clojure isn't really the right language for that kind of thing?
16:16	ChongLi	inavat: you could use clojurescript on node.js
16:16	Schaefer	you might consider using ClojureScript and Google's V8 engine. i understand that has good startup time
16:17	infiniteone	hello, I'm using nrepl in emacs and can't get the inline documentation working I, can use tab to get a completion list but no doc anyone else have this problem
16:18	inavat	I was considering that.. I was considering embedding V8 in c++ to create a standalone app. I guess I'd be a little sad to lose some of the stuff from Clojure.. I was particularly excited to learn to use STM
16:19	ChongLi	inavat: ah, STM is not available in clojurescript (javascript doesn't have threads)
16:19	inavat	right
16:19	rclarkson	i have a sequence and wanna loop the elements in it .. i want to output "Hello", "Goodbye", "Hello", "Goodbye", that is the loop will switch for every other element .. how do i do this?
16:19	inavat	guess I can't have my cake and eat it too
16:19	ChongLi	if you want to write a nice command line app that makes use of STM and concurrency, perhaps haskell is a better fit
16:20	ChongLi	haskell compiles to native code so it starts up fast
16:21	ChongLi	&(take 5 (cycle '("hello" "goodbye")))
16:21	lazybot	⇒ ("hello" "goodbye" "hello" "goodbye" "hello")
16:23	amalloy	inavat: you could try using drip, as well
16:24	rclarkson	ChongLi: good example .. i wasn't being specific .. it's more that I already have a list with elements eg. '("Foo", "Bar", "Baz", "Bam") and want it to print out "Hello Foo", "Goodbye Bar", "Hello Baz", "Goodbye Bam"
16:24	ChongLi	rclarkson: oh
16:25	amalloy	&(map list (cycle '[hello goodbye]) '[foo bar baz bam])
16:25	lazybot	⇒ ((hello foo) (goodbye bar) (hello baz) (goodbye bam))
16:25	clojurebot	bam is BAM!
16:26	inavat	amalloy, I've heard people talk about drip, and it's been dismissed as not idea. What would be the down sides to using drip?
16:26	ChongLi	amalloy: that's not quite it
16:26	amalloy	well, it might not work
16:26	inavat	as I understand it, it keeps running VMs ready to go
16:26	ChongLi	he wants hello and goodbye for each name
16:26	amalloy	mostly it works, but it's not super well tested
16:27	amalloy	ChongLi: i produced the exact output he wanted. i don't know why you think he wants something else
16:27	ChongLi	amalloy: oh you are right, I misread it
16:28	metellus	,(map str [
16:28	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:28	rclarkson	amalloy: thx
16:28	metellus	oops
16:28	inavat	ChongLi, thanks for the Haskell recommendation. I'm interested in Haskell as well, though not as much as I am in Clojure.
16:29	ChongLi	inavat: yeah I used Haskell a bunch before discovering Clojure
16:29	ChongLi	I really love a lot of what's in Haskell
16:29	ChongLi	but I also love Clojure
16:29	ChongLi	it's another "can't have cake and eat it too" things
16:30	inavat	the program I want to write will make use of lots of web services, have plugins, etc.. it feels like Clojure, with its rich library ecosystem, is a better fit
16:30	Arxontas_tou_Sko	i think imperative languanges model the way you act,lisp models the way you reason,prolog models the way you know
16:30	Schaefer	if you're embedded a JVM into C++, you can use JNI's invocation API to maintain an internal JVM in your C++ process. you may not need to shut the JVM down
16:31	fakedrake	I am using friend for authentication and I would like it to query a database for users, not use a map. Is there an easy way to do that?
16:31	Schaefer	thus, you would only pay the cost of starting a JVM once
16:31	inavat	So is the slow startup thing considered a problem by the Clojure community? Is it something you'd bet will get better in the future? Or is it something you just take with Clojure and it'll probably always be the case?
16:31	Schaefer	inavat: is your C++ process long-lived?
16:31	ChongLi	inavat: it's a problem with the JVM in general
16:31	inavat	Schaefer, no it's not.. it will be used like a command line utility.
16:32	amalloy	ChongLi: jvm startup time is minimal compared to clojure's startup time
16:32	Schaefer	inavat: ah. forget the JNI approach then:)
16:32	ChongLi	amalloy: but that's only because the JVM doesn't include everything Clojure needs!
16:32	inavat	Maybe embedding V8 in C++ and using ClojureScript is the best approach. Even then, I'd miss out on lots of clojure and java libs that won't be available in ClojureScript, right?
16:33	ChongLi	inavat: don't you need STM?
16:34	Schaefer	i'd be really surprised if you'd want the STM in something short-lived like a utility
16:34	ChongLi	yeah I was wondering about that as well
16:34	ChongLi	seems odd
16:34	Schaefer	if you need mutable state, you can still use atoms in clojurescript
16:34	inavat	I was excited about STM. I wouldn't say I need it. I'm really a beginner at Clojure, and haven't learned STM yet, so I can't say for sure I won't need it..
16:34	inavat	yeah, I guess I see this being single-threaded
16:34	Schaefer	ah, so a solution in search of a problem :)
16:35	ChongLi	yeah we want everything, don't we
16:35	inavat	okay, you've convinced me ClojureScript in embedded V8 might be a good option. But what about the library ecosystem, is it as rich in CLojureScript as it is in Clojure?
16:35	ChongLi	high level language with beautiful libraries, instant start-up time, interpreted language that's as fast as hand-rolled C
16:36	ChongLi	inavat: according to callenbot the node.js ecosystem is richer even than the JVM!
16:36	Schaefer	inavat: true, the ecosystem isn't as rich as clojure's. i'm not as familiar with clojurescript but i think many libraries would work. what does this utility do? what sort of utilities do you think you'll need?
16:37	inavat	I see. Well I'll try it out.. wont' hurt to get familiar with the ClojureScript ecosystem at least
16:37	ChongLi	inavat: be forewarned
16:37	ChongLi	clojurescript is a lot newer than clojure
16:37	ChongLi	and can be tricky to get into
16:37	ChongLi	due to having less documentation/tooling
16:38	ChongLi	you'll want to use cljsbuild
16:39	inavat	Do people commonly write programs and libraries in the language that's the intersection of Clojure and ClojureScript?
16:39	ChongLi	inavat: there are a few, yes
16:40	ChongLi	work on this is ongoing
16:40	yedi	callen: http://shenfeng.me/add-async-to-ring.html
16:41	ChongLi	yedi: weavejester already wrote an example for him
16:41	yedi	oh
16:41	ChongLi	https://github.com/weavejester/websocket-example
16:45	edtsech	ChongLi: I think, it's for aleph not for http-kit.
16:45	ChongLi	oh good point
16:45	ChongLi	I didn't read yedi's link
16:47	cemerick	what might cause browser-REPL to work in Chrome+Safari, but not Firefox?
16:48	ivan	cemerick: did you look in Firefox's Error Console? (now hidden, has to be enabled in about:config)
16:48	rclarkson	is this a good way to put something into a vector as last element? (into [:one :two] '(:three))
16:49	ChongLi	&(conj [:one :two] :three)
16:49	lazybot	⇒ [:one :two :three]
16:50	ChongLi	unless you actually have a list
16:50	devn	What companies are doing Clojure in SF?
16:50	ChongLi	then you want concat
16:50	ChongLi	&(concat [:one :two] '(:three))
16:50	lazybot	⇒ (:one :two :three)
16:51	ChongLi	but that gives you back a LazySeq
16:56	gfredericks	&(into [:one :two] '(:three))
16:56	lazybot	⇒ [:one :two :three]
16:59	yedi	http://shenfeng.me/600k-concurrent-connection-http-kit.html
17:04	dabd_	I am having problems with floating point numbers. This won't work ,(filter #(== % 8.3) (range 0 25.1 0.1))
17:04	dabd_	,(filter #(== % 8.3) (range 0 25.1 0.1))
17:04	clojurebot	()
17:04	hyPiRion	,(abs -1)
17:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: abs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:05	hyPiRion	Blu. ##(filter #(< (Math/abs (- % 8.3)) 0.001) (range 0 25.1 0.1))
17:05	lazybot	⇒ (8.299999999999986)
17:06	hyPiRion	Comparing exactly isn't smart, check if the difference of the values are less than some low value epsilon.
17:07	hyPiRion	e.g. wouldn't even ##(== 0.0M 0M) give the expected result.
17:07	lazybot	⇒ false
17:07	gfredericks	or use ratios!
17:07	gfredericks	ratios are the best except when they're bad.
17:07	dabd_	yeah maybe i should read "what every computer scientist should know about floating-point arithmetic" :-)
17:08	gfredericks	,(filter #(= 83/10) (range 0 251/10 1/10))
17:08	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval133$fn>
17:08	hyPiRion	dabd_: there's valuable information there :)
17:08	gfredericks	,(filter #(= 83/10 %) (range 0 251/10 1/10))
17:08	clojurebot	(83/10)
17:09	dabd_	thanks guys ratios seems good for me
17:10	hyPiRion	gfredericks: In 10 minutes someone will come here and ask why their program is so slow.
17:10	gfredericks	better than asking why their program is so wrong :P
17:14	hyPiRion	true enough
17:19	tomoj	huh, datomic has bigdec
17:19	gfredericks	that's curious
17:20	SegFaultAX	Why did Prismatic close up all their libs?
17:20	tomoj	but they use a different equality :/
17:21	tomoj	I guess that's good
17:21	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: there was a conversation about that a while ago wherein it was suggested they were trying to get bought or something I think
17:22	SegFaultAX	Does their sutff being OSS impact that?
17:22	gfredericks	apparently
17:22	SegFaultAX	:(
17:22	cemerick	ivan: yeah, nothing there
17:22	SegFaultAX	They had some really neat stuff (at least from the talks I've seen)
17:22	gfredericks	ibdknox seemed to know the reasoning behind that
17:22	gfredericks	I've never bought or sold a company before so it's all foreign to me
17:23	p_l	SegFaultAX: OSS tends to impact some buyers
17:24	p_l	especially when you try to get bought based on your IP
17:24	p_l	it pays off to have the "core, money-bringing" stuff private
17:24	SegFaultAX	Well it's not like their core product was OSS. Just some pretty nifty libs.
17:25	SegFaultAX	I'm mostly interested in their Store library.
17:25	yedi	what's Store
17:25	SegFaultAX	yedi: A clojure abstraction over a bunch of different datastores.
17:26	SegFaultAX	yedi: Check it http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Why-Prismatic-Goes-Faster-With-Clojure
17:26	yedi	ah, i remember now
17:27	yedi	it sucks that theyre tryna get bought tho
17:28	SegFaultAX	yedi: Meh. I'm only sad that the clojure community can't benefit from their work (anymore/yet).
17:29	yedi	exactly
17:29	gfredericks	fork all the things
17:30	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Don't be that guy. ;)
17:41	inavat	what's the downside of using drip to work around the slow startup?
17:42	hyPiRion	I suppose there's some JVM running in the background
17:43	TheComrade	can anyone suggest why (going through emacs / clojure tutorial) that compiling test file gives me "unable to resolve symbol", but running lein test on CLI generates correct output?
17:43	TheComrade	on core_test.clj
17:48	inavat	I can't see why that's a down-side hyPiRion. I'm here considering whether to use ClojureScript and V8... or Haskell or Ruby or some other language.. but I think I should just use Drip
18:02	juliend_	Hi all, I need some help wrapping my head around some of the concepts of clojure dev
18:02	ChongLi	juliend_: hi
18:03	juliend_	I use ccw as a dev env
18:03	ChongLi	ok
18:03	juliend_	question 1) Does that make a big difference in terms of dealing with the REPL ?
18:03	ChongLi	in terms of features... or?
18:03	juliend_	the specific problem I'm having is that my application state seems to get corrupted
18:03	ecmendenhall	Hi everyone!
18:03	ecmendenhall	I have a flat list of vectors generated by zipping through a hiccup page.
18:04	ecmendenhall	Here's a paste: https://www.refheap.com/paste/9012
18:04	ecmendenhall	I'm trying to walk over it and generate nested :ul hiccup elements to create a table of contents.
18:04	juliend_	ChongLi: I get a error like: java.lang.StackOverflowError at clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap.seq(PersistentHashMap.java:194) at clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom(RT.java:480) at clojure.lang.RT.seq(RT.java:475)
18:04	ecmendenhall	There must be a way to do this with walk or reduce, but I'm stuck. Any suggestions?
18:04	hyPiRion	inavat: Uses more memory, bad for portable things like phones and Nexus 7
18:04	ChongLi	juliend_: are you using explicit recursion?
18:05	juliend_	after entering some bad code, which is fine, but when I remove that bad line of code. the exception remains
18:05	juliend_	the only thing I can do is restart the java process and repl completely
18:05	juliend_	then it works fine, with the same code
18:05	juliend_	so I am confused with how exactly the REPL works and how it ties in to the runtime
18:06	ChongLi	there should be a hotkey to reload your code in the repl
18:06	juliend_	no explicit reccusion, but it might be in there I'm a big nood
18:06	juliend_	noob
18:06	juliend_	the code that caused it was: (println (alength statuses))
18:07	amalloy	it should be possible as reduce, ecmendenhall, but it doesn't look easy. hiccup is great for generating html, but working with already-hiccuped data structures is no fun; perhaps you already have it in some nicer form?
18:07	ChongLi	juliend_: is statuses a java array?
18:07	juliend_	no, statuses is just a reg clojure array
18:07	ChongLi	you mean a vector?
18:08	juliend_	(def statues [])
18:08	juliend_	*statuses
18:08	arrdem	vector.
18:09	juliend_	my main question is not why this code failed on me, but rather why it seems that my application runtime was corrupted afterwards
18:09	juliend_	removing the bad line doesn't seem to help, it keeps throwing the same runtime exception
18:09	juliend_	am I missing something ??
18:09	lazybot	juliend_: Definitely not.
18:10	juliend_	lazybot: def not what ?
18:10	ecmendenhall	amalloy, Yeah, I have it as html and markdown. I'll think about trying to parse the markdown. All the header elements are at the same level of the DOM, though.
18:10	ChongLi	juliend_: that's a bot
18:10	ChongLi	haha
18:10	ecmendenhall	I'll chew on it for a while...
18:10	juliend_	ok lol
18:11	ChongLi	juliend_: I wish I could be of more help, I don't use eclipse or ccw
18:11	juliend_	ChongLi: what do you use? anything you'd recommend ?
18:11	arrdem	ChongLi: on three?
18:11	juliend_	ChongLi: I've also tried light table but it's far from being operational
18:12	arrdem	juliend_: yeah Light Table has a long way to go.
18:12	arrdem	juliend_: emacs + nrep.el seems to be the favorite around here.
18:13	inavat	juliend_, you need to get the REPL to reload your newly updated code
18:13	inavat	it's got the old definition in there
18:13	inavat	I don't know anything about CCw
18:14	inavat	so I don't know how you'd do it
18:14	ChongLi	I use emacs + nrepl.el
18:14	ecmendenhall	I've also been having trouble connecting to the ClojureScript browser REPL. I'm pretty sure I've just made a dumb configuration mistake...
18:14	ecmendenhall	This one has a long explanation, so I'll just share my SO question here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14552026/connecting-to-clojurescript-brepl-clojure-browser-repl-connect-throws-typeerror
18:15	DigitalJack	Can someone tell me how to get emacs to quit highlighting the "current" word/name?
18:17	ChongLi	ecmendenhall: there's nothing dumb about it, the browser REPL is currently nontrivial to get running
18:17	dnolen	ChongLi: CLJS support only basic core.logic - no support for constraint or FD stuff. Probably won't see anything like that until feature expressions or something like it gets sorted out.
18:18	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: this in-place amap is really swell. less taxing for the heap.
18:18	dnolen	pepijndevos: yeah DCG is slow, a lot of optimization work is required for that stuff to work reasonably.
18:18	dnolen	mmarczyk: pong
18:19	ecmendenhall	ChongLi, haha, thanks. It sure is. I saw the same problem in the irc logs from earlier this year, but I couldn't find a solution.
18:20	ChongLi	dnolen: is that in reference to my question about this?:
18:20	ChongLi	https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/Using-core.logic-with-ClojureScript
18:20	ChongLi	dnolen: so that is up to date?
18:20	juliend_	inavat: thanks, i'm pretty sure im reloading right because I see some debug lines that are at the top level being reprinted in the REPL. However, when I request a specific route, the whole thing crashes. If I restart the REPL & process with the exact same code, it works fine
18:20	Bodil	dnolen: Oh, that reminds me, is core.logic for Cljs mature enough for a potential Kibit port? That'd be awesome for Catnip.
18:21	dnolen	ChongLi: yes in ref to that question. It is up to date as far as how to use the CLJS version of core.logic.
18:22	ChongLi	dnolen: ok cool
18:22	dnolen	ChongLi: CLJS version of core.logic is very minimal - hardly any of the fancier stuff available - tabling, constraints (so no FD or nominal), no disequality
18:22	ChongLi	I was just wondering based on the "last edited 10 months ago"
18:22	dnolen	ChongLi: it's basically just miniKanren more or less
18:23	bosie_	is there a function for maps that insert a new key but won't override the key if it already exists?
18:23	dnolen	Bodil: but doesn't Catnip require the JVM anyway? So couldn't you just run kibit against the CLJS?
18:24	Bodil	dnolen: I'd like to ditch the JVM at some point. Also, hack value. :)
18:24	bosie_	merge i guess is what i am looking for
18:25	dnolen	Bodil: heh, well soon as I can easily maintain a single codebase I will.
18:25	dnolen	Bodil: so yeah, something like that should be possible in the future.
18:26	cemerick	ChongLi: only a matter of time at this point :-)
18:26	Bodil	dnolen: I'll be looking forward to the future, then. :)
18:33	dnolen	ecmendenhall: I believe when using the latest CLJS you need the third party Closure jar as well
18:33	cemerick	Yeah, I hit that hard today
18:34	cemerick	that's http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418 if people want to watch/vote
18:34	dnolen	feel free to comment / upvote if you want to see CLJS require it as a dependency (which I think it should)
18:34	dnolen	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418
18:35	inavat	what's the best twitter library for clojure?
18:35	inavat	twitter-api?
18:36	ecmendenhall	dnolen: aha, thanks. I'll try that out.
18:37	dnolen	cemerick: oops heh, you beat me to it.
18:37	arrdem	lol
18:37	arrdem	why does clojurebot not do libraries too?
18:38	cemerick	dnolen: yeah. Brutal earlier. Send whiskey. :-P
18:48	ivaraasen	dnolen: what's the current status of core.logic and fork/join?
18:48	dnolen	ivaraasen: no status
18:49	dnolen	ivaraasen: jamie brandon has done some work, but I'd like to approach the problem in a more general way.
18:49	dnolen	ivaraasen: http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/Search-customization-%26-instrumentation
18:50	dnolen	ivaraasen: jim duey also did some experimental work - but it was done in such a way that it's not mergeable at all
18:50	ivaraasen	dnolen: looks interesting. lots of cool stuff happening at the moment.
18:50	dnolen	ivaraasen: yes!
18:51	ivaraasen	dnolen: implemented a prototype based on the Prismatic Flop slides the other day
18:53	juliend_	I need help on something simple: I am doing a compojure/ring web app. I have a vector, statuses, that contains messages I want to display on a route. In the fn that fires for that route, how do I iterate on my vector to output a sequence of [:li that-status]
18:53	juliend_	?
18:54	weavejester	juliend_: Are you using Hiccup?
18:54	dnolen	ivaraasen: neat, I haven't looked at the flop stuff
18:54	juliend_	weavejester: Yes!
18:55	ivaraasen	dnolen: it's only like three macros. pretty darn fast too. in-place amap! is pretty appealing as well for large arrays
18:55	weavejester	juliend_: You could just do [:ul (for [status statuses] [:li status])]
19:03	juliend_	weavejester: For some reason, I get: java.lang.StackOverflowError
19:04	juliend_	weavejester: Here's my code: http://pastebin.com/TS1Me3CC
19:06	weavejester	juliend_: There's nothing obvious there that would cause a stack overflow unless there was something strange in layout-narrow.
19:12	juliend_	weavejester: Thanks... Here's layout-narrow: http://pastebin.com/nGrk3QNk if you could have a look :)
19:12	juliend_	it relies only on hiccup APIs
19:13	weavejester	Nothing hugely odd there, either. A stack overflow usually comes from runaway recursion. As far as I can see, all the code you have is bounded.
19:13	weavejester	What's the stack trace like? It should tell you what part is repeating.
19:14	juliend_	at clojure.lang.Util.classOf(Util.java:94) at clojure.core.protocols$fn__5828$G__5823__5841.invoke(protocols.clj:13) at clojure.core$reduce.invoke(core.clj:6030) at ns_tracker.dependency$transitive.invoke(dependency.clj:15) at ns_tracker.dependency$transitive$fn__3120.invoke(dependency.clj:14) at clojure.core.protocols$fn__5871.invoke(protocols.clj:76) at clojure.core.protocols$fn__5828$G__5823__5841.invoke(protocols.clj:13) a
19:14	juliend_	....
19:14	juliend_	and on and on and on
19:15	weavejester	juliend_: That looks like a circular dependency.
19:15	weavejester	ns-tracker creates a graph of dependencies, but it assumes there are no circular dependencies.
19:16	juliend_	weavejester: the weird part is.. I've been getting this error a lot. And reverting the code that simingly caused it and reloading the file in the REPL doesn't help
19:16	weavejester	For example, if file A requires file B, but file B requires file A, that's a circular dependency.
19:17	francis	Anyone, is this a good representation of the difference between a lisp-1 and a lisp-2? https://gist.github.com/4651584
19:17	juliend_	weavejester: if I shut down the repo and the java process, and start it from scratch, then it works. with the same code!
19:19	weavejester	juliend_: It's likely a problem with wrap-reload. You technically shouldn't have any circular deps in your source code, but it might be possible to have them without generating an error in Clojure itself.
19:20	juliend_	I think you're right, because it only starts to happen when I reload a file for the first time
19:20	juliend_	so it's not a problem starting from scratch, but it is when a file is live reloaded
19:20	juliend_	and I did find a self reference in a :require, that should be it
19:21	weavejester	juliend_: Yes. ns-tracker should really have better error reporting for self references and circular dependencies.
19:21	juliend_	weavejester: it should. at least I found it with your help. there's a lot of traps for noobs out there!
19:24	beffbernard	Hi, is there a way to pass in parameters to a route without going about it with middleware or a global state?
19:48	weavejester	I'm having a bit of difficulty with recursion in core.logic
19:49	technomancy	francis: that's not really right
19:49	weavejester	I've set up a base case, and a recursive case, but I can't stop it from iterating forever
19:49	weavejester	Unless… the results from run* are not lazy...
19:49	technomancy	francis: lines 5 and 12 would show the lambda; you'd use (funcall x) in line 12 to get that value
19:49	technomancy	and (x) in line 5
19:50	hiredman	weavejester: you may want to look in to tabling, or restructure your cases, because conde does each clause, it doesn't stop at the first clause that matches like cond
19:50	hiredman	weavejester: https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/Features mentions tabling
19:51	hiredman	tabling is, as far as I can tell, memoization for logic programs
19:51	weavejester	hiredman: I think it this case it was because I assumed that (take n (run* …)) was the same as (run n …)
19:51	weavejester	(defn repeato [q qs]
19:51	weavejester	(conde
19:51	weavejester	[(conso q [] qs)]
19:51	weavejester	[(fresh [rs]
19:51	weavejester	(repeato q rs)
19:51	weavejester	(conso q rs qs))]))
19:52	hiredman	:/ yeah that is very similar looking to the tabling example
19:53	weavejester	I think the difference is that I don't expect the results to terminate without setting an explicit limit.
19:55	hiredman	I've been writing core.logic programs that query jira's rest interface, tabling cuts down on the number of rest calls that happen
19:56	weavejester	I'll optimize it later :)
19:57	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/4651836
19:59	francis	technomancy: Thanks.
20:02	weavejester	Hum, maybe I'll need tabling after all.
20:04	brehaut	is there a good low complexity sql db migratiion lib around?
20:05	brehaut	im fine with typing in all the sql statements manually, i just want something that will manage running them when needed
20:05	TimMc	brehaut: You only want up-migrations, yeah?
20:05	weavejester	I hesitate to nominate one of my own projects, but Ragtime perhaps?
20:05	brehaut	TimMc: i think so yeah
20:05	brehaut	weavejester: irc is exactly for that sort of recommendation
20:06	brehaut	TimMc: yeah up only
20:06	brehaut	because i am a DB heathen
20:07	brehaut	weavejester: ragtime does look like it covers all my needs and more
20:08	brehaut	weavejester: any downsides to ragtime?
20:13	weavejester	brehaut: It's not as mature as, say, Ring. But I have used it in production without problems.
20:13	brehaut	weavejester: ok thanks.
20:14	rationalrevolt	Hi room, i'm just starting out with ring and was trying out session middleware. I tried making a session counter, but its always incrementing twice - am I doing something wrong? https://gist.github.com/4651916
20:14	weavejester	rationalrevolt: Probably because the browser is looking for a favicon
20:15	weavejester	rationalrevolt: So when you go to "/", the browser makes 2 requests, one to "/" and one to "/favicon.ico".
20:16	rationalrevolt	ook - so, this should work right if map my handler to a path other than "/"
20:17	brehaut	weavejester: the docs for ragtime suggest putting ragtime "0.3.2" into dependancies; is it safe to use def dependancies?
20:17	rationalrevolt	thank you weavejester
20:17	weavejester	brehaut: def dependencies?
20:17	brehaut	weavejester: sorry, dev. dependancies
20:18	brehaut	(dependancies only defined for the development profile)
20:18	weavejester	brehaut: I don't see why not
20:18	brehaut	cool
20:19	weavejester	I mean it's all the same thing by the time it gets to the app.
20:29	Frozenlock	I just stumbled uppon a goog.events which is in the closure library, but not accessible with cljs. Is cljs only using a subset of the closure library?
20:30	dnolen	Frozenlock: what do you mean "in", if it's in the jar you can use it.
20:31	ChongLi	Frozenlock: you can use it
20:31	ChongLi	you just need to fully qualify when you construct one of the objects
20:32	ChongLi	say you want a KeyHandler
20:32	Frozenlock	Well, if I type "goog.events.MouseWheelHandler" in my js console: On the goog. demo page, it will return the definition. However on my cljs page, it's undefined. https://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/closure/goog/demos/mousewheelhandler.html
20:33	ChongLi	first you need to (:require [goog.events.KeyHanlder :as key-handler]) in your ns declaration
20:33	ChongLi	then you create one with (def kh (goog.events.KeyHandler.))
20:34	ChongLi	works exactly the same way with MouseWheelHandler
20:35	Frozenlock	Oh right. I suppose what I was comparing it with was already required elsewhere
20:35	Frozenlock	Works now, thank you very much :)
20:35	fakedrake	hello, i want to keep a stack of errors so i came up with this, but it seems a bit ugly, is there a better way? https://gist.github.com/4652070
20:35	ChongLi	no prob
20:36	S11001001	fakedrake: that's unsafe too
20:36	ChongLi	fakedrake: put it in an atom
20:36	fakedrake	could you show me?
20:36	ChongLi	(def errors (atom '()))
20:36	S11001001	fakedrake: or carry the error vec around with you
20:37	ChongLi	(defn push-error [error] (swap! errors conj error))
20:38	fakedrake	ChongLi: Thank you
20:39	ChongLi	to get at the value in the atom you deref it with @
20:39	ChongLi	@errors
20:39	ChongLi	swap! is used to update it
20:40	TimMc	fakedrake: Vars are not meant to be used that way, and thus do not have the behavior you need.
20:40	TimMc	Particularly, var mutation is not thread-safe.
20:41	ChongLi	overriding with def is basically meant only for use in a repl
20:46	fakedrake	are atoms thread safe?
20:47	TimMc	Yep, that's what they're there for.
20:48	fakedrake	how about this: (defn pop-all-errors [] (let [tmp-errors errors] (reset! errors '()) tmp-errors))
20:48	fakedrake	?
20:49	amalloy	no
20:49	fakedrake	:S
20:49	amalloy	mutation is hard, man. write code without it
20:50	fakedrake	:S I kind of want to retrieve errors asynchronously so they will show up during rendering...
20:50	fakedrake	I will look for another way
20:52	ChongLi	fakedrake: read out of the tarpit
20:53	xumingmingv	given a fn, is there a programmatical way to determine it is an anonymous function or not?
20:53	TimMc	ChongLi: All I got out of OotTP was a sense of frustration at all current programming systems. :-P
20:54	TimMc	xumingmingv: In a realiable way, or in a hack-assed way?
20:54	xumingmingv	I'd like hear both, if possible ;)
20:55	TimMc	I'm not guaranteeing that either exists, mind you.
20:55	ChongLi	TimMc: it's really been enlightening to me
20:55	ChongLi	I can practically trace the philosophy of Clojure through it
20:55	TimMc	ChongLi: Enlightening, yes, but I haven't been able to apply anything I've learned from it.
20:56	n_b	OotTP?
20:56	ChongLi	TimMc: that depends on how literally you take it
20:56	pppaul	anyone here worked with clojurescript and angularjs? i would like to know if clojurescript would be easier to work with than that?
20:56	TimMc	I'm not finished. Just getting into the FRP stuff.
20:56	gfredericks	clojurebot: OotTP is Out of the Tarpit
20:56	ChongLi	when they talk about using "separate languages"
20:56	clojurebot	c'est bon!
20:56	ChongLi	you don't literally have to use completely separate programming languages
20:56	ChongLi	you can use DSLs
20:56	TimMc	sure
20:57	rplaca	xumingmingv: how badly do you want to know? You can enumerate all the vars in all the namespaces and see if any of them point to it
20:57	ChongLi	and if you look at clojure, you can see that atoms, refs, agents etc. form a DSL for handling state
20:57	rplaca	that shouldn't be too hard, but it's not very efficient
20:57	ChongLi	with their own special operator
20:58	xumingmingv	rplaca: sounds like a solution
20:58	ChongLi	another thing to look at is macros in clojure
20:58	ChongLi	you could consider them a DSL for implementing control (though they can do much more than that, obviously)
20:59	rplaca	xumingmingv: an anonymous function is just a function that hasn't been assigned to a var
20:59	TimMc	xumingmingv: Which of these is "anonymous"? #(), (fn [] ()), (fn foo [] ())
20:59	gfredericks	,#()
20:59	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval27$fn__28 sandbox$eval27$fn__28@2d14a694>
20:59	xumingmingv	rplaca: actually it is enough for my purpose, thanks
20:59	gfredericks	,(#())
20:59	clojurebot	()
20:59	gfredericks	weeeeeird
20:59	TimMc	heh
20:59	ChongLi	xumingmingv: keep in mind that defn is a macro in clojure
20:59	ChongLi	it expands to def
21:00	ChongLi	with a regular (fn [] ...) in there
21:00	xumingmingv	TimMc: I think I mean the first two
21:00	ChongLi	as well as handling some other stuff for you
21:00	ChongLi	(through optional params)
21:00	xumingmingv	TimMc: The third one does have a name, right?
21:00	TimMc	Sort of.
21:01	TimMc	Clojure functions don
21:01	xeqi	pppaul: have you had any luck figuring out how to make peridot send the files you want?
21:01	rplaca	(defn f [x y z] ...) == (def f (fn f [x y z] ... )), roughly
21:01	TimMc	Clojure functions don't carry names beyond compile time.
21:01	ChongLi	a clojure function is a value that can be bound to a var; like any other value
21:01	TimMc	(Unlike JS fns, for instance.)
21:01	ned	is test.generative like haskell's QuickCheck?
21:01	pppaul	xeqi, i am doing lots of file testing with is, however i haven't got a chance to refactor my tests to make them look the way i want
21:02	ChongLi	unlike other languages which use special statements to define functions
21:02	ChongLi	a clojure function is defined by an expression
21:02	TimMc	&(class (fn CHECK [] ()))
21:02	lazybot	⇒ sandbox8276$eval77672$CHECK__77673
21:03	gfredericks	ChongLi: well it is a special form
21:03	gfredericks	also JS is roughly the same
21:03	ChongLi	gfredericks: no
21:03	ChongLi	JS has function expressions and function statements
21:03	ChongLi	with different syntactical rules
21:03	gfredericks	do they have different semantics?
21:03	ChongLi	yeah
21:04	TimMc	Sort of...
21:04	ChongLi	a function statement can't be called immediately with ()
21:04	TimMc	ChongLi: A JS function statement is basically a JS var assignment + a function expression.
21:04	TimMc	Not so different from Clojure.
21:04	gfredericks	ChongLi: worked for me
21:04	TimMc	Now, there may be some differences between browsers re: scope, instanceof, etc.
21:04	ChongLi	it wasn't a function statement then
21:05	ChongLi	function statements are denoted by the f in the word function being in the first column of a line
21:05	gfredericks	well you can't call anon functions like that either
21:05	gfredericks	function(){return 5}() fails
21:05	TimMc	That's a statement.
21:06	TimMc	gfredericks: Try (function(){return 5})()
21:06	gfredericks	sure
21:06	gfredericks	"anonymous" normally means nameless to me
21:06	TimMc	Well, that's nameless, and it works.
21:06	gfredericks	sure but so is mine
21:06	gfredericks	but I can't call it
21:06	ChongLi	because it's a statement
21:06	ChongLi	not an expression
21:07	TimMc	gfredericks: With yours, "SyntaxError: function statement requires a name"
21:07	gfredericks	TimMc: chrome gives me unexpected token (
21:07	TimMc	Ooh, does it let the fn statement through?
21:07	gfredericks	I guess it's an error without the () too though
21:08	gfredericks	same error though
21:08	gfredericks	(about the paren)
21:08	TimMc	Ah, it's the first paren.
21:08	gfredericks	which I guess means the same thing as requiring a name
21:08	ChongLi	yeah the unexpected token is where the name should be
21:09	ChongLi	but anyway, my point is that statements are generally bad
21:09	ChongLi	because they enforce silly arbitrary syntactic ordering/rules
21:10	ChongLi	expressions (particularly S-expressions) are a lot simpler to deal with
21:10	gfredericks	http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/36425234294/when-i-see-that-a-new-language-makes-a-difference
21:11	ChongLi	haha there you go
21:15	ChongLi	what does Rich Hickey think of feature expressions?
21:23	xeqi	is there some middleware that can be added to make (compojure.routes/resources ..) have etags or last-modified headers for caching?
21:27	technomancy	gfredericks: if you meet someone who has invented a language with statements, is it more polite to try to comfort them ("everyone makes mistakes", etc) or to pretend you don't know?
21:28	arrdem	nope, not working for me.
21:38	TimMc	technomancy: The one place it would be useful to have statements in Clojure: println at the REPL.
21:39	TimMc	and even then it's just that I'd rather not see "nil" at the end of a printout.
21:45	yazirian	#fossworldproblems
21:46	TimMc	(inc yazirian)
21:46	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:46	yazirian	:)
21:46	arrdem	TimMc: if we had reader macros that'd be easy....
21:47	TimMc	&(do (println "Look Ma, no nil!") (symbol ""))
21:47	lazybot	⇒ Look Ma, no nil!
21:47	TimMc	...but that's sort of cheating.
21:47	arrdem	haha
21:48	hadronzoo	I've created a custom record in ClojureScript that I'm serializing with pr-str. When I use read-str to reload that record, I get a Javascript error that it could not find tag parser. Is it possible to read records in Clojurescript?
21:48	TimMc	adiii: I've done that for REPL util fns before.
21:48	TimMc	bah
21:48	TimMc	arrdem: ^ not adiii
21:49	hadronzoo	Do I need to register a custom tag parser for each record type I create?
22:00	hadronzoo	I answered my own question. Currently, you do have to register a tag parser, as shown here: https://coderwall.com/p/3xqr7q
22:10	rl	hmm, i'm trying to figure out symbol scope in eval, ex
22:10	rl	( (fn [x] (eval 'x)) 56)
22:10	rl	compalsin about symbol x not existing
22:12	rl	what am i not getting?
22:13	rationalrevolt	&((fn [x] (eval x)) 56)
22:13	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
22:13	rl	lol
22:13	rationalrevolt	lol
22:14	arrdem	meh... anyone know a really ultralight html templating engine?
22:14	rl	arrdem: i'm actually working on one right now
22:14	arrdem	I need to bang out some page mock-ups and I don't want to set up a full blown ring/compojure instance...
22:15	arrdem	rl: do tell
22:15	gfredericks	technomancy: are you suggesting I start a "Dear PLT Abby" column?
22:15	rl	it's now done yet, but look at fleet. it might meet your needs
22:16	rl	https://github.com/Flamefork/fleet (this is someone elses project)
22:16	arrdem	not sure if beautiful or repulsive..
22:17	arrdem	cute either way
22:17	rl	arrdem: what does "&" stand for? hard to use search engine with that symbol
22:18	callenbot	yedi: I'm not going to use long polling.
22:18	arrdem	rl: up in rationalrevolt's example?
22:18	rl	whoops, yes haha
22:19	arrdem	it's just syntax so that the channel clojure evaling bot(s) would pick it up.
22:19	arrdem	,(println "hellp rl!")
22:19	clojurebot	hellp rl!\n
22:19	arrdem	&(println "hello rl!")
22:19	lazybot	⇒ hello rl! nil
22:19	rl	ah cool
22:20	arrdem	clojurebot does most of the talking, but lazy bot deals with karma
22:20	arrdem	~cons
22:20	clojurebot	(def ^:const x 42) will cause any compiled reference to x to be as if you wrote 42 instead
22:20	arrdem	~guards
22:20	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:20	arrdem	~gourds
22:20	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
22:20	arrdem	you get the idea
22:20	rl	hm, mabey i should re-work my system
22:21	rl	bascially im slurping in a html file, splitting up "<html>HI !%%some_clojusre_stuff%% </html>" into multiple vectors, string ont he left and clojure data/code on the right
22:22	rl	then using eval on the index that contains the code/data
22:22	gfredericks	is there a special function for getting a range of keys from a sorted-map?
22:23	arrdem	gfredericks: wouldn't you just (filter) it?
22:24	gfredericks	that would presumably not take advantage of the underlying data structure for efficiency
22:24	arrdem	correct
22:24	gfredericks	these sorted-maps must be good for something besides printing maps with their keys sorted
22:25	arrdem	gfredericks: one would hope...
22:26	dcb	I'm frustrated that I can't attach metadata to datomic entities. Is there a technical reason entities can't have metadata?
22:26	gfredericks	dcb: you want to store the metadata in the db?
22:27	dcb	gfredericks: no. Just on the entity I pull back from the database. Not meant to persist at all.
22:27	gfredericks	then I have no idea; I wouldn't think it's a technical limitation
22:28	amalloy	gfredericks: subseq
22:29	dcb	gfredericks: Yah it seems obvious that they should be able to, as they are in a lot of ways just a fancy collection type. I haven't been able to find anyone discussing it though. I guess metadata is not that widely used?
22:30	gfredericks	amalloy: and that's why (apropos "key") didn't find it :) thanks
22:30	gfredericks	dcb: I have no hunches; I haven't used datomic either.
22:32	rationalrevolt	Is _method in a form parameter used to indicate the form submission method, i.e. GET/POST? Is this in any standard?
22:32	gfredericks	rationalrevolt: I don't think it's standard but pretty common
22:32	rationalrevolt	gfredericks: alright
22:32	gfredericks	usually to fake a PUT or DELETE
22:33	gfredericks	for people who like HTTP verb variety more than web browsers do
22:34	rl	ah, here is the issue
22:34	rl	(let [data "test"] (eval (read-string "data")))
22:34	rl	&(let [data "test"] (eval (read-string "data")))
22:34	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
22:35	rl	,(let [data "test"] (eval (read-string "data")))
22:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
22:35	gfredericks	rl: eval doesn't see locals
22:35	rl	hmmm
22:36	gfredericks	if you want to set up some particular locals for some code you're going to eval, you can wrap the code in a let and eval that
22:36	rationalrevolt	gfredericks: is this commonly used in client side js for REST or something? Like if i needed to do a PUT call from the browser?
22:36	gfredericks	rationalrevolt: exactly
22:36	arrdem	herm, so nrepl can't seem to find lein when it's clearly installed and on my path.
22:36	gfredericks	I can't say for sure I've seen it outside of rails but I always had the impression it was in the pile of quasi-standard web programming hacks
22:37	arrdem	does it use a different search path than the launching user?
22:41	rationalrevolt	Like &(...) to evaluate an sexp here in this chat room - are there other hooks?
22:41	brehaut	reasons i should be moving my site of couchdb: i have entire types of document i no longer recognise at all
22:41	gfredericks	rationalrevolt: & triggers lazybot
22:42	gfredericks	&(#(% %) #(% %))
22:42	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
22:42	rationalrevolt	someone here also did a ,(..) which gave some sandbox message - are there other hooks like that?
22:42	gfredericks	, is for clojurebot, also for eval
22:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:43	gfredericks	,(#(% %) #(% %))
22:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
22:43	gfredericks	clojurebot: lazybot?
22:43	clojurebot	lazybot is echo ~lazybot
22:43	xeqi	rationalrevolt: , and & trigger the two bots. lazybot also listens to $ for commands, ~ triggers clojurebot to talk
22:43	xeqi	$findfn 1 2 3
22:43	xeqi	~gourds
22:43	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
22:43	hiredman	clojurebot: what is good in life?
22:43	clojurebot	meaning of life is to become one with Lisp
22:43	lazybot	[clojure.core/bit-or clojure.core/bit-xor clojure.core/+ clojure.core/unchecked-add clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-add-int]
22:43	gfredericks	~botstack
22:43	clojurebot	/me puts lazybot on his head and gropes blindly for a third bot to complete the stack.
22:44	arrdem	(inc clojurebot)
22:44	lazybot	⇒ 16
22:44	gfredericks	callenbot is here...
22:44	arrdem	is there a limit on how many lines clojurebot'll print?
22:45	gfredericks	,(dotimes [n 10] (println n))
22:45	clojurebot	0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n
22:45	gfredericks	that I hadn't seen.
22:45	gfredericks	,(println "foo\nbar")
22:45	clojurebot	foo\nbar\n
22:46	arrdem	that's new...
22:46	gfredericks	,(println (apply str (repeat 200 \x)))
22:46	clojurebot	xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\n
22:47	arrdem	~setf
22:47	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:47	arrdem	~setq
22:47	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
22:47	arrdem	~set
22:47	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
22:59	xeqi	recently got a screencast about friend and creating a login form polished enough, would appreciate any feedback; http://www.clojurewebdevelopment.com/videos/friend-interactive-form
23:02	francis	xeqi: Nice tutorial.
23:03	arrdem	herm... can I get someone else's `which lein`?
23:03	arrdem	xeqi: what line highligher are you running here?
23:03	francis	arrdem: ~/bin/lein
23:03	arrdem	francis: weird... thanks.
23:04	arrdem	francis: can you M-x nrepl-jack-in ?
23:05	francis	arrdem: No, I end up starting a REPL on the terminal and connecting to that.
23:06	francis	xeqi: More specifically, I like that you included creating tests as part of the process. It sets a good example.
23:06	arrdem	xeqi: yaaay bcrypt
23:06	ppppaul	anyone have experience working with clojure.data.xml?
23:07	arrdem	solved my nrepl issue by sudo ln -s ~/bin/lein /usr/local/bin/lein X-P
23:09	francis	ppppaul: I have some experience, why?
23:09	callenbot	xeqi: thanks for sharing this!
23:10	xeqi	arrdem: I'm using the monokai theme
23:10	xeqi	though I remember changing that color due to some interaction wieh emacs and urxvt
23:12	callenbot	xeqi: what bit is highlighting the failed step of the test?
23:12	xeqi	callenbot: thats clojure-test-mode using C-c C-, in the test file
23:13	callenbot	xeqi: thanks
23:14	ppppaul	francis, i'm doing a test. i have an input xml and some output xml (both are zipped and go through xml->).... i want to compare a single branch of their tags, but my data structure from xml-> is huge and contains way more stuff than i expected it to contain... how would i trim it down so i can compare my xml objs?
23:15	xeqi	francis: thanks, I come from a tdd-ish background and love having tests that make sure I'm doing what I think I am
23:15	ppppaul	https://gist.github.com/4652966
23:16	cshell	ppppaul: DOM Manipulation/XPath query?
23:17	ppppaul	hmm
23:19	callenbot	xeqi: how do you like living in Texas?
23:19	ppppaul	it comparing pieces of xml not a use-case in xml manipulation/creation libs?
23:19	callenbot	xeqi: I'm in the bay area and considering going back to contracting and leaving Cali.
23:21	xeqi	callenbot: I see the benefits of being in the bay area career wise, I'm here cause its better for wife's career
23:22	xeqi	cheap houses with lots of room, but that causes the sprawl
23:22	xeqi	though parts of austin are bikable
23:22	callenbot	xeqi: I'm just miserable here and would rather go back to contracting. I preferred living in the country.
23:24	xeqi	ah, plenty of that here, and lots of suburbs for the have some room but not be alone feeling
23:24	cshell	callenbot: What is bringing you misery in the bay area?
23:25	xeqi	though you give up the tech meetups; we've got ~5 regulars for the houston clojure meetups
23:25	callenbot	cshell: quite a lot. I'm culturally alienated. I find most of the startups I've run into or worked for to be disingenuous.
23:25	callenbot	xeqi: there's nothing at all impressive about the bay area programming meetups here. They're mostly a travesty. The Clojure ones are slightly better.
23:26	callenbot	xeqi: one Clojure meetup group is used as a guy's personal profiteering opportunity, the other is populated mostly with curious tourists.
23:26	cshell	callenbot: I'm interested because I'm considering moving from CO to the bay area, solely for the career opportunities. Have you been mostly working at startups rather than the established/larger companies?
23:26	Schaefer	callenbot: if you prefer the counry, you might consider alameda. it's the midwest of the bay area
23:26	callenbot	Schaefer: uh no, I want out of Cali.
23:27	callenbot	Schaefer: I was thinking Washington, Texas, NM, AZ, OR.
23:27	xeqi	haha, I got a couple of contracting oppertunities out of the local ruby group when I was doing that, so I figured they had to be more valuable out there
23:27	callenbot	cshell: all startups, yes.
23:27	ppppaul	come to canada
23:27	cshell	callenbot: I've heard great things about Austin for developers - they say the demand down there is incredibly high
23:27	Schaefer	alright then :) i've been here for 20 years and it's definitely not everyone's cup o' tea
23:27	callenbot	ppppaul: I don't want to live in Canada.
23:27	callenbot	cshell: Austin is on my hot list.
23:27	xeqi	+1 austin
23:28	callenbot	xeqi: I don't mean sometihng like that, I mean he's literally using the meetup group to advertise expensive classes
23:28	callenbot	and he had a funded startup on top of that. This isn't something relatively innocuous like picking up contracting work
23:28	callenbot	which I'm considering doing with an old friend so we can both leave Cali.
23:29	callenbot	I'm to the point where I'm convinced I'll do my own startup, but it'll be bootstrapped and that I wouldn't want anything to do with the bay area ecosystem.
23:29	cshell	callenbot: Where are you thinking of picking up contracting work outside of Cali? It's hard in CO to find contracting work that doesn't want you onsite or through an agency
23:29	callenbot	cshell: Cali is pretty hostile to contracting in general and just wants to hire, in my experience.
23:30	callenbot	cshell: I was thinking of seeking remote projects and individual work.
23:30	cshell	callenbot: That's similar to CO as well - where will you look for the remote projects/ind. work? When I've looked, the market seems to be dominated by people in India bidding super cheap for large projects
23:31	francis	ppppaul: I started looking at your issue, but then was forced to close my emacs, could you tell me again exactly what your issue is?
23:31	cshell	callenbot: just interested cause I've been thinking of the same things
23:31	callenbot	cshell: I've got a long history, broad range of experience, and some particularly expensive specialties. I'm hoping that and a good sense of taste will help me get back in the game.
23:31	ppppaul	i want to compare a branch of 2 similar xml docs francis
23:31	callenbot	cshell: I've been a 100% remote consultant before. This is nothing new for me.
23:31	ppppaul	the branch in the 2 docs should be the same, the rest of the tree could differ
23:32	callenbot	cshell: what's new is wanting to do it as a small concern with my friend.
23:32	francis	ppppaul: I'm not sure what you mean by 'docs'
23:32	ppppaul	xml documents (files)
23:33	ppppaul	one is a file, one is generated from my db
23:33	callenbot	Apage43: I'm from Ohio and have been miserable here for ~2 years. I'm almost itchy with desire to leave. What about you?
23:33	callenbot	Apage43: I lived in NYC for 2 years prior to this.
23:33	Apage43	callenbot: From Arkansas. Previously working remote, still working for the same company here.
23:34	callenbot	I have thoroughly established that I hate city life.
23:34	Apage43	It seemed like a better idea then than it does now =P
23:34	xeqi	callenbot: oh, if you're considering tx I hope you like it hot; and humid if your near the coast
23:34	callenbot	xeqi: that could be a blocker. I'm a winter creature.
23:34	Apage43	callenbot: I kind of knew I didn't like urbanness before moving, I just underestimated that since I'd only experienced it in bursts
23:34	callenbot	xeqi: I'll give it thought. I'm hoping Austin is a best-of-all-worlds situation for wanting to live in the country but having access to a city.
23:35	arrdem	xeqi: not really... mod our sweltering summer the winter here is equivalent to east-coast spring
23:35	Apage43	I grew up in East TX though (also known as Patent Litigation Country)
23:35	callenbot	Apage43: I figured it out quickly in NYC, was hoping CA wouldn't be the worst of all worlds in urban-ness and suburban-ness.
23:35	francis	ppppaul: Personally I would turn them into clojure data structures, then grab the parts/branches I want and compare those. Is your question how would one go about that?
23:36	ppppaul	well, they are clojure data structures....
23:36	ppppaul	but they are zipped and unmanageable for me
23:37	Apage43	anyway i'm about to commit to an apartment for a while, so no escaping in the near term
23:37	ppppaul	Apage43, sublet
23:38	callenbot	Apage43: I'm not in a lease, and even if I was, I'd burn the fucking apartment to the ground before staying here any longer than I have to.
23:38	callenbot	the moment I figure out an income not connected to my physical location, I'm goooooooone
23:38	ppppaul	doesn't subletting exist in america?
23:38	callenbot	ppppaul: I'm subletting right now, technically.
23:38	arrdem	ppppaul: it does, but many contracts prohibit it.
23:38	callenbot	ppppaul: we're generally less apt to make formalisms out of casual arrangements.
23:38	ppppaul	no need to burn things
23:38	arrdem	ppppaul: doesn't mean that ppl don't do it
23:39	callenbot	yeah I'd say most leases don't allow it
23:39	Apage43	callenbot: mine kind of wasn't and then it let it become that way :/
23:39	callenbot	we got away with it by aggressively ignoring the whiny landlord.
23:39	ppppaul	cal = anti tenant
23:39	francis	ppppaul: I've never used private messages before on IRC, did that reach you?
23:40	Apage43	*then I
23:40	arrdem	ppppaul: bullshit SF is pro-tennant as hell
23:41	callenbot	SF isn't the entirety of California
23:41	callenbot	how pro-tenant the law is depends on the municipality.
23:41	callenbot	In general, SF's pro-tenant laws are part of what makes it so expensive to live there
23:41	arrdem	yeah... 'cause once you're in your landlord basically can't remove you.
23:41	callenbot	there's a bimodal distribution of incomes in SF, wealthy and very poor, because of the high costs, high regulation, subsidization, etc.
23:42	callenbot	so if you're not a post-IPO founder or unemployed, you can't live in SF.
23:43	ppppaul	arrdem, then why no subletting?
23:46	arrdem	ppppaul: not sure about SF, I'm only aware of the state there second hand. here in ATX subletting is largely against contract tho.
23:47	ppppaul	against contract != against law
23:47	ppppaul	in ontario i think that a contract is void if it states any crazy crap against subletting
23:48	arrdem	true... but that's really just semantics. either way the landlord has the consequent power to evict you.
23:48	callenbot	I really liked the tenant law in Ohio
23:48	callenbot	it was a good balance