#clojure – 2013-01-28

2013-01-28

00:00	rationalrevolt	In compojure are the routes (GET "/:id" [id] ...) and (GET "/:id" {{id "id"} :params} ...) the same? In the latter form, does id map to the form parameters or the request uri?
00:08	xeqi	rationalrevolt: yes, they are the same. It will match either, with the route-params having preference
00:08	xeqi	well, almost the same
00:09	xeqi	{{id :id} :params} instead of {{id "id"} :params}
00:10	rationalrevolt	hmm
00:14	rationalrevolt	i'm not understanding how this is working: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/1.1.3/src/compojure/core.clj#L81 seems to say that is we are not a vector bindind then the bindings are done with the request itself - which would explain the :params usage in the map destructuring.. but then, the id was part of the uri and not the form parameter - i'm confused as to how this is actually working
00:16	technomancy	TimMc: I actually used that (symbol "") trick in Leiningen once
00:17	technomancy	when we were using the Ant stuff to do subprocesses, I couldn't figure out how to suppress the fact that Clojure printed the value of the form in eval-in-project
00:17	amalloy	rationalrevolt: there's probably a wrap-params middleware wrapped around somewhere
00:17	brehaut	wait a minute, java.jdbc has an sql generation dsl‽
00:19	xeqi	rationalrevolt: there is a call chain of make-route -> if-route -> assoc-route-params, which the result of gets passed as the request to let-request
00:22	callenbot	yogthos\|away: luminus is looking pretty great. :)
00:23	technomancy	callenbot: come up to seattle
00:23	callenbot	technomancy: is there countryside that is accessible to Seattle?
00:23	technomancy	best clojure group per capita
00:23	callenbot	technomancy: I'm seriously considering Seattle.
00:23	callenbot	technomancy: what's the contracting environment like there?
00:24	technomancy	callenbot: couldn't tell you re: contracting
00:24	rationalrevolt	xeqi: thanks
00:24	technomancy	country really isn't far though
00:24	callenbot	I was looking at google maps, trying to figure out where I could snag a homestead in riding distance of seattle
00:24	technomancy	we have a couple irregular attendees to seajure that come from bainbridge island even (other side of the water)
00:24	technomancy	public transit is a joke unfortunately, but slowly improving
00:25	callenbot	technomancy: I ride a motorcycle, don't care.
00:25	technomancy	ah, gotcha
00:26	callenbot	convinced my friend to let me use Clojure for our portfolio site :)
00:26	technomancy	I'm just across the city limits to the north; I like it a lot. tons of parks and the mountains aren't far away.
00:26	callenbot	that sounds pleasant.
00:27	xeqi	but what if you hate coffee
00:27	technomancy	xeqi: dunno, you'd have to ask hiredman
00:27	callenbot	xeqi: I love coffee
00:28	technomancy	when we first moved up here every other weekend we were exploring a new park
00:29	technomancy	during the summer it's the best place ever for working remotely: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/tags/remoteoffice/
00:29	xeqi	do you have a lightbox?
00:30	callenbot	technomancy: d'awww, family.
00:31	technomancy	heh. most of those are old; kids are 3 and 5 now.
00:33	technomancy	feel free to pm if you want to know more about seattle without boring the channel
01:05	magnars	You've got a basic git log output in one long list with each commit headed by a line "commit 38a8c3..." - now you want to partition the list into sublists - one for each commit. I've got my solution, that I am decidedly unhappy with. How would you do it?
01:12	magnars	Here's my solution, if that triggers any thoughts: (mapv #(apply concat) (partition-all 2 (partition-by is-commit-header lines)))
01:52	francis	I'm having an exception occur ONLY when I'm runnning code in the REPL https://gist.github.com/4653543
01:52	francis	I'm not sure why that would happen and would appriciate some direction.
02:07	brehaut	does clojure.java.jdbc have any diagnostics support?
02:08	Raynes	brehaut: It's awfully late for you to be around.
02:08	Raynes	How rare.
02:08	brehaut	Raynes: woo public holiday
02:09	brehaut	Raynes: and who doesnt like beating their head against an (apparently) obtuse SQL error of their own divising
03:10	nurettin	hi, is there an RSS or atom feed for newest clojure related libraries ?
03:37	noidi	nurettin, it's not quite what you asked for, but there's https://twitter.com/planetclojure
03:38	noidi	it lists new of clojure-related blog posts, which often are about new libraries
03:39	michaelr525	hello
03:48	nurettin	noidi: great source, thanks
04:00	nurettin	noidi: here's how I made an rss out of it:
04:00	nurettin	http://api.twitter.com/1/statuses/user_timeline.rss?screen_name=planetclojure
04:00	noidi	cool
04:00	nurettin	now it relays to my old phone :-)
04:34	josteink	//Get the current status from the DB
04:34	josteink	DocumentRow docRow = DocumentRow.GetFromIdxDocumentId(incomingInfo.DocumentId);
04:34	josteink	DocumentLockSemantics currentStatus = docRow.LockSemantics;
04:34	josteink	DocumentLockSemantics newStatus = incomingInfo.LockSemantics;
04:34	josteink	if ((int)currentStatus < (int)newStatus)
04:34	josteink	{
04:34	josteink	docRow.LockSemantics = newStatus;
04:34	josteink	docRow.Save();
04:34	josteink	if (currentStatus != DocumentLockSemantics.None)
04:34	josteink	{
04:34	josteink	_helper.EnsureDirectoryExists(new DirectoryInfo(_helper.GetVersionHistoryFolderPath(docRow, string.Empty)));
04:34	josteink	}
04:35	josteink	}
04:35	josteink	that's definitely not clojure and definite not intended for this channel
04:35	josteink	er. sorry
04:48	nurettin	josteink: looks very C#
04:48	josteink	it is
04:49	clgv	josteink: you should use pasting sites for other channels as well ;)
04:49	josteink	it was a very accidental paste :P
04:49	josteink	I was supposed to copy a URL and paste
04:49	josteink	instead I Ctrl-v'ed in the URL bar (instead of CTRL-c) without noticing ;)
04:56	clgv	josteink: so you are a ClojureCLR user? ;)
04:57	josteink	nah
04:57	josteink	I tried starting out there. figured it would be better/easier whatever
04:58	josteink	but I found much less support for it around than for plain, mainline JVM clojure
04:58	josteink	it's not like anyone will allow me to intermix F#-code, even less clojure-code, into our company's codebase
04:58	josteink	and if its not work
04:59	josteink	well. I just do plain jvm ;)
04:59	josteink	can you even use lein with clojureclr?
05:00	josteink	if you cant use leiningen, whatever clojure-related you are selling me, you will fail :P
05:17	clgv	josteink: there is a lein plugin for clojureclr, afair on the ML
05:23	josteink	still
05:23	josteink	I dont see enough benefits to going CLR
05:24	josteink	if nothing else, I see value in poking my nose in new stuff, stuff Im not exposed to 24/7 anyway
06:02	clgv	josteink: I'd only use it if I needed it in a .Net application
06:20	zby	cemerick - what is the signature of the function needed for :credential-fn?
06:20	zby	I deduced #(if(= (% :username) (% :password)) {:roles #{::admin}} nil) - as a simple example
06:21	zby	in the session there still seems that something is not set:
06:21	zby	{:cemerick.friend/identity {:current nil, :authentications {nil {:identity nil, :roles #{:friend-testing.core/admin}}}}}
07:09	michaelr525	hey
07:10	michaelr525	i've created a number of different workers where each blocks on a rabbitmq message queue
07:11	michaelr525	what would be a good way to manage/organize them?
07:11	michaelr525	they all belong to a single web app
07:11	michaelr525	should i run one jvm process and spawn multiple threads or maybe run one jvm per worker?
07:21	bosie_	https://www.refheap.com/paste/9018
07:21	bosie_	why would this give me a runtimeexception?
07:21	cemerick	zby: see https://github.com/cemerick/friend/#credential-functions-and-authentication-maps
07:23	clgv	bosie_: because you try to use a java function as higher order function. and thus the compile thinks you specify a static field there
07:23	clgv	*compiler
07:23	bosie_	clgv: i see
07:23	clgv	,(doc mem.fn)
07:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: mem.fn>
07:23	clgv	,(doc mem-fn)
07:23	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
07:23	clgv	,(doc memfn)
07:23	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn."
07:24	clgv	bosie_: you can either construct that function composition explicitely or use memfn
07:25	bosie_	clgv: i just tried and re-read the doc. sounds like it wouldn't work on static functions
07:26	clgv	,((memfn Float/parseFloat) "0.12")
07:26	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: parseFloat for class java.lang.String>
07:26	clgv	oh right^^
07:26	bosie_	just asked out of curiosity, will use read-strings instead ;)
07:27	cgrand	TheBubsy: here
07:27	TheBusby	cgrand: hey there
07:27	cgrand	I don't understand your last msg
07:27	TheBusby	cgrand: how much data are you dealing with?
07:28	cgrand	TheBusby: not much, in my example it was between 1e6 and 1e7
07:28	TheBusby	cgrand: it wasn't related to your frequencies example, but if you could operate over the "reducer's chunk", which is 512 by default, you could simplify things
07:29	TheBusby	in profiling I didn't see the reduce step as being too expensive, but the combine was consuming the bulk of the time
07:29	cgrand	TheBusby: ok you meant have the ability to pass a random function f who takes the reducer-chunk and yield the value
07:29	TheBusby	yes,
07:30	cgrand	no questions aced about how it (this function) performed its job
07:30	TheBusby	so instead of reducef, something like reduce-chunk-f
07:30	cgrand	I thought about that but it doesn't compose well
07:30	TheBusby	no it doesn't and it kind of breaks the model of ignoring the storage format
07:30	cgrand	if the coll is the result of a r/map for example it won't work
07:30	TheBusby	:(
07:31	tomoj	are you talking about clojure.core.reducers/fold or something new I'd like to see? :)
07:31	TheBusby	tomoj: fold
07:31	tomoj	oh, ok
07:31	TheBusby	reducers are great, until you try and output a map
07:32	cgrand	TheBusby: hence my proposal of having a "cleanup" function called on the same thread as reduce before combine get to see the result
07:32	cgrand	TheBubsy, how does fold-in-map works?
07:33	tomoj	for map output, the combinef is merge?
07:33	TheBusby	cgrand: old way was this, https://gist.github.com/4655172
07:34	TheBusby	tomoj: that's the big issue, the combinef has to be merge.
07:34	TheBusby	and the bulk of the time will be spent in the combine step
07:34	TheBusby	until at the very end, you have one core pegged as merge handles two giant maps
07:35	tomoj	interesting
07:35	tomoj	have you thought about how reduce-kv could help if you could use it composably?
07:35	tomoj	how/whether
07:35	TheBusby	the problem is there isn't an efficient way to generate large maps
07:36	tomoj	right, guess it wouldn't help
07:36	TheBusby	just today I had to cut/paste half the PersistentHashMap.java source code to produce my own map
07:37	TheBusby	cgrand: try some quick profiling, I'd be surprised if too much of your time is in reducef and not combinef
07:37	cgrand	TheBubsy: it depends, in my case, the number of keys is capped/small and the merge phase is not too expensive. I agree that if your key set is somewhat proportional to the size of the input, merge s the hotspot
07:38	TheBusby	cgrand: you're right, excellent point
07:38	cgrand	when you only need to perform lookups into the resulting map there's a possible cheap workaround
07:38	TheBusby	even with a small percentage of keys though, how much of your time is spent in reducef?
07:39	cgrand	TheBusby: switching from naive reduce to naive fold -> nearly halved the runtime (about -45%) on a 2core CPU
07:40	cgrand	going from naive reduce to transient reduce -> about -75%
07:40	cgrand	so I conclude that merge is not my current hotspot
07:41	TheBusby	cgrand: fair enough. Apologize for hijacking your thread, but the merge issues has been dogging me too long. :(
07:42	cgrand	TheBubsy however I could use a faster merge on another project
07:43	tomoj	the cleanup function seems familiar
07:44	TheBusby	cgrand: the problem is it needs to be done in PersistentHashMap to be clean
07:44	TheBusby	it's so easy to divide and concur with the BitmapIndexedNode as you know all similiar keys are already grouped together
07:44	TheBusby	s/concur/conquer/
07:46	arcatan	are let bindings guaranteed to be evaluated in the order they're in source?
07:46	TheBusby	cgrand: you can do the transient persist! trick now if you use reflection?
07:47	cgrand	arcatan: yes
07:47	arcatan	cgrand: thanks.
07:48	TheBusby	cgrand: in your combinef just have something like (if (isa? foo ATransientMap)(persist! foo) foo)) no?
07:48	cgrand	TheBusby: no, transient have same-thread policy you can't call persistent! from the combining thread
07:49	TheBusby	cgrand: ah, I see
07:50	TheBusby	cgrand: gotta crash for the night, but it was good talking to you and I hope to hear progress regarding reducers+transients
07:53	tomoj	why put the cleanup in the combinef and not the reducef?
07:53	cgrand	TheBusby: https://gist.github.com/4655215 /cc tomoj
07:54	cgrand	it only works when you can get by with only needing lookup on the merge map
07:54	tomoj	cool, a fn sentinel
07:56	tomoj	(fn ([] (transient! [])) ([ret] (persistent! ret)) ([ret v] (conj! ret v)))
07:56	TheBusby	cgrand: also curious why foldcat is 3x slower than (r/fold (r/monoid into vector) conj coll) ...
07:56	cgrand	tomoj: two reasons. #1 is combined provides the init value which is already "tainted". #2 is reduced is called for each item and you want to clean up after the whole reduce only (before combine) not after each item
07:57	tomoj	yeah, the suggestion would be to have r/reduce call the cleanup function after reduce
07:57	tomoj	although not sure how to do that without breaking everyone and now requiring an extra arity..
07:57	cgrand	TheBusby: no idea have never looked into it
07:58	cgrand	tomoj: it feels asymmetric to ask r/reduce to do that or then you also need to tell fold how to turn the clean init value provided by cominef into a "dirty" one (e.g. transient) to be passed to r/reduce
07:58	tomoj	http://squing.blogspot.com/2008/11/beautiful-folding.html
08:00	cgrand	TheBusby, tomoj: gotta run, thanks
08:00	TheBusby	cgrand: have a great day
08:01	cgrand	TheBusby: good night
08:01	tomoj	hmm, agreed that is weird
08:24	ticking	I was wondering, is it already possible and if not could it be to attach datastructures to one another. Say I have a string sorting function, which takes strings, but I wanted to associate a position with each. One could attach the positions to the strings, sort them and then retrieve the positions. Thoughts?
08:25	S11001001	,[1 "hi"] ;ticking
08:25	clojurebot	[1 "hi"]
08:25	S11001001	,(doc sort-by)
08:25	clojurebot	"([keyfn coll] [keyfn comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll, where the sort order is determined by comparing (keyfn item). If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
08:26	S11001001	ticking: `map' is the other ingredient, bake for 30min at 350 degrees, let cool for 10min, enjoy
08:26	tomoj	&(->> ["foo" "bar" "baz"] (map-indexed vector) (sort-by second (comp - compare)))
08:26	lazybot	⇒ ([0 "foo"] [2 "baz"] [1 "bar"])
08:27	ticking	S11001001 tomoj, the string sorting was an example, there are many other cases where one cannot provide a special comparator function
08:28	tomoj	what you're asking for is like metadata. 1) strings can't take metadata 2) positions aren't metadata
08:28	nurettin	tomoj: what is the meaning of second (comp - compare) ?
08:28	magnars	dependency inversion on database access: pass in a function that closes over the database atoms, or something else entirely?
08:28	tomoj	(comp - compare) is the reverse of the default compare
08:29	tomoj	&(sort (comp - compare) (range 10))
08:29	lazybot	⇒ (9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0)
08:29	nurettin	oh I see
08:29	nurettin	second is the values
08:29	nurettin	cool thanks
08:29	tomoj	second pulls out the strings from the pairs, then the comparator is applied on the strings
08:29	ticking	tomoj, exactly. the metadata system basically does this, but it using it this way would be pretty bad style as it is not intendet for this
08:30	S11001001	ticking: what cases?
08:30	ticking	magnars reading of OCR xml files, there are a lot of string manipulation functions that work on the text, I'd like to keep them as clean as possible and only annotate the positions on the words
08:31	magnars	ticking: I think that was posted to the wrong person. I'm mostly thinking about dependency inversion in clojure now. :-)
08:31	ticking	magnars: ah sorry :D
08:32	nurettin	&(->> ["foo" "bar" "baz"] (map-indexed vector) (sort-by second(comp compare)))
08:32	lazybot	⇒ ([1 "bar"] [2 "baz"] [0 "foo"])
08:32	S11001001	ticking: I'd suggest that, because you can't do what you're asking for and maintain referential transparency, that there's nothing "clean" about such a result.
08:32	nurettin	tomoj: why does it require the whitespace after - ? is it just the rule or does it have an explanation ?
08:33	tomoj	there comp, function composition, is applied to two arguments
08:33	tomoj	the first is -, the minus function
08:33	nurettin	so I have to put whitespace between function components
08:33	tomoj	if you try to write -compare it will think you're looking for a function called '-compare
08:33	ticking	S11001001 why would that loose referantial transparency, if I pass a hashmap into a function that works on only one of its elements, then it's still referential transparent
08:33	nurettin	awesome thanks
08:34	S11001001	ticking: "I dare you to tell me which which which points to in this sentence."
08:34	tomoj	you don't always need whitespace though
08:34	ticking	S11001001 what I want is the same only that there is one canonical element on which all operations are performed by default
08:34	tomoj	&((comp {:foo :bar}[:foo]) 0)
08:34	lazybot	⇒ :bar
08:35	tomoj	but no good reason not to have a space between arguments..
08:35	ticking	S11001001 sorry non native is a habbit I picked up some time ago and it's hard ot get rid of ^^
08:35	nurettin	{:foo :bar} is that a hash with one key and [:foo] an array ?
08:35	ticking	nurettin: yes
08:35	nurettin	ticking: cool
08:35	tomoj	a vector
08:36	nurettin	ah ok I call it vector
08:36	ticking	nurettin [] denotes vectors though
08:36	nurettin	[:teh :vectorz]
08:36	hyPiRion	,(vector 1 2 3)
08:36	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
08:36	tomoj	which is maybe analogous to what other languages call an array
08:36	hyPiRion	,(hash-map 1 2 3 4)
08:36	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4}
08:36	tomoj	but much better :)
08:36	nurettin	:this :looks :weird "why" "not" "like" "this" ?
08:37	nurettin	is it like strings and symbols in ruby ?
08:37	tomoj	well, there is at least one incidental reason, Strings can't be made functions (yet)
08:37	hyPiRion	It's keywords. They stand out more than strings usually, and are used for different purposes.
08:37	tomoj	&(:foo {:foo 3})
08:37	lazybot	⇒ 3
08:37	ticking	S11001001 I still don't see the loss of referential transparency though. As the functions themselves never see the annotation you always get the same result for the same input.
08:38	S11001001	ticking: assuming all "which"s are interchangable, then it's fine
08:40	nurettin	thanks everyone now I'm not a complete stranger to clojure :-)
08:46	nurettin	are there awesome mysql/postgres ORMs written for clojure ?
08:48	nurettin	mapping sql databases to clojure data structures
08:49	tomoj	no
08:50	tomoj	:P
08:50	nurettin	heh that would be nice
08:50	tomoj	there are sql libraries
08:51	nurettin	according to this clojure seems to perform much better on their machine http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=clojure&lang2=jruby
08:51	nurettin	except for regexes :D
08:53	nurettin	I use jruby in production, but I have to cache like crazy
08:54	michaelr525	nurettin: korma sql is half way to an "ORM"
08:54	michaelr525	maps database records to clojure maps :)
08:54	tomoj	then that's, what 40% of the way? :P
08:54	p_l	a lot of ORMs are doing it wrong. And in a language like clojure you don't need what is typically shown as ORM
08:54	p_l	now, something akin to Sequel (a Ruby ORM), yes
08:55	nurettin	(has-many address {:fk :userID})) <- I like it
08:55	nurettin	now if it has some left and inner joins it would be nice :D
08:55	michaelr525	it has
08:58	nurettin	lein looks interesting
08:58	nurettin	leiningen
09:00	ticking	nurettin don't do clojure without it
09:00	ticking	nurettin it makes up 50% of the grase that lets clojure run so smooth ^^
09:08	nurettin	sooo noir korma and jboss let's see how long this takes
09:20	michaelr525	nurettin: last i heard noir was deprecated and became a library which is supposed to be used together with ring/compojure..
09:20	michaelr525	nurettin: what's the jboss part in all of this?
09:23	kristian-	michaelr525: ....and in Luminus, ref http://www.luminusweb.net
09:26	nurettin	michaelr525: it is what we use for web application production server
09:27	nurettin	michaelr525: it has built-in timers, queues, services, jobs, etc.
09:27	vijaykiran	nurettin: then you might want to start with immutant :)
09:28	nurettin	vijaykiran: that will make my job much easier thanks :-)
09:31	jcrossley3	nurettin: are you looking to integrate with an existing jboss deployment?
09:31	tomoj	wasn't someone looking at url/repo metadata in project.clj's in github and/or pom.xml's in repos?
09:32	nurettin	jcrossley3: I'm planning to replace it :-)
09:33	jcrossley3	nurettin: we're in #immutant if you have any specific questions about it
09:36	nurettin	it will depend on how fast our lead developers can transition from C# to clojure :D
09:38	bosie_	is there a function that would let me do (get-in {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}} [ANY :3]) and return a hash with all maps fitting the pattern?
09:38	bosie_	hi ticking
09:39	ticking	bosie_, hey :D sory for being undercover for some time had a lot of stuff on my plate ^^
09:39	bosie_	ticking: figured. education is a bitch. ;)
09:39	ticking	yeah ^^
09:40	ticking	bosie_ you could do the above with a sequence or zip of some sort I think
09:41	bosie_	ticking: get all the keys and apply (get-in) over them
09:41	bosie_	oh
09:41	bosie_	actually, why not
09:41	ticking	bosie_ ah its only one nesting deep?
09:41	bosie_	ticking: yes
09:44	ticking	bosie_ hrm I think zippers are capable of doing thing like that, buts its some weeks back that I last used them
09:50	clgv	bosie_: thats easily achievable with a `for`
09:50	ticking	clgv a filter should probably already do the trick
09:51	clgv	,(for [[_ m] {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}} :when (contains? m :3)] (get m :3))
09:51	clojurebot	("blah" "foo")
09:51	bosie_	clgv: damn, thats nifty
09:52	clgv	,(for [[_ m] {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}} {x :3} m :when x] x)
09:52	clojurebot	()
09:53	clgv	damn the second should have worked as well
09:54	clgv	,(for [[_ {x :3}] {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}} :when x] x)
09:54	clojurebot	("blah" "foo")
09:54	clgv	thats it^^
09:56	bosie_	so _ is like in prolog
09:56	clgv	bosie_: no, it is just convention for "I dont care for that value"
09:56	bosie_	what is the name of "_"?
09:56	clgv	underscore?
09:57	bosie_	lol yes
09:57	bosie_	but why can you use it in this context
09:57	bosie_	the for docs don't mention it
09:57	clgv	why not? you can use all UTF-8 encoded charachters except the reserved ones
09:57	bosie_	oh
09:57	bosie_	right
09:58	bosie_	nvm i thought it had magic to it
09:58	clgv	,(let [𝛂 2 𝛃 3] (println "𝛂 + 𝛃 =" (+ 𝛂 𝛃)))+
09:58	clojurebot	𝛂 + 𝛃 = 5\n
09:58	bosie_	right
09:59	clgv	pretty useful when doing math^^
09:59	bosie_	i expected the _ to do what you actually wrote
09:59	bosie_	the :when part baked into the _
09:59	clgv	the underscore stands for "I do not care for the keys"
10:00	bosie_	well, it doesn't stand for anything. its just a variable name
10:00	bosie_	right?
10:00	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
10:00	clgv	if you need a seq on a fixed level of a map hierarchy `for` is your friend ;)
10:00	clgv	bosie_: yes
10:00	clgv	a binding name
10:00	bosie_	ye
10:01	clgv	but only if that fixed level is known at compile time^^
10:01	bosie_	sure. the _ threw me. IIRC in datalog you would get this exact behavior with _
10:01	bosie_	where _ is resolved to mean any variable that solves [_ :3]
10:02	bosie_	which you are doing too, except you also need the :when clause
10:03	bosie_	nvm thanks
10:16	bosie_	clgv: btw
10:17	bosie_	nvm, lets drop it. sorry
10:19	clgv	bosie_: lol, you can just ask. someone might answer ;)
10:20	bosie_	nah, i wanted to ask if you really think the for solution is better than a filter
10:24	clgv	bosie_: the following is even shorter: ##(keep :3 (vals {x :3}] {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}}))
10:25	clgv	humm lazybot is lazy again
10:25	clgv	,(keep :3 (vals {x :3}] {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}}))
10:25	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
10:25	bosie_	clgv: thats the disadvantage of lazy eval. you never know when it will run
10:25	bosie_	jk
10:25	clgv	,(keep :3 (vals {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}}))
10:25	clojurebot	("blah" "foo")
10:26	bosie_	right
10:26	bosie_	but i am looking for everything
10:26	nDuff	Are there conventions for the naming of anaphoric macros?
10:26	bosie_	{:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"}} in your case
10:28	clgv	oh, well. so you want no get-in but sa select-in-pred ;)
10:28	tomoj	I think the convention is pretty much "don't do anaphoric macros"?
10:28	bosie_	clgv: (filter #(comp (= :3.0 %) first keys second) {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}})
10:28	bosie_	ok not working
10:29	S11001001	tomoj: yep
10:30	tomoj	e.g. the new as-> takes a name
10:30	bosie_	clgv: yup, i guess you could say "select-in-pred"
10:31	tomoj	I've been thinking about how to write select-in
10:31	clgv	bosie_: you could use reduce-kv to build the new map
10:32	bosie_	clgv: my filter works
10:32	bosie_	clgv: but the whole first keys second thingie bothers me
10:32	tomoj	doesn't seem to work to me
10:33	tomoj	#(comp (= :3.0 %) first keys second) is a predicate that's always true
10:33	tomoj	wait
10:33	tomoj	what?
10:33	clojurebot	what is meta
10:33	bosie_	tomoj: tomoj (filter #(= :9.0 ((comp first keys second) %)) {...})
10:33	nDuff	tomoj: Not sure how to get my desired effect (logging functions aware of the current ns) without either anaphoric macros or a lot of repetition.
10:34	clgv	bosie_: try (reduce-kv (fn [result k m] (if (contains? m :3) (assoc result k m) result)) {} {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}})
10:35	clgv	,(reduce-kv (fn [result k m] (if (contains? m :3) (assoc result k m) result)) {} {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}})
10:35	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reduce-kv in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:35	clgv	,(clojure-version)
10:35	clojurebot	"1.4.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
10:35	clgv	:O
10:35	clgv	&(reduce-kv (fn [result k m] (if (contains? m :3) (assoc result k m) result)) {} {:1 {:3 "blah"} :3 {:3 "foo"} :4 {:8 "ewe"}})
10:35	lazybot	⇒ {:3 {:3 "foo"}, :1 {:3 "blah"}}
10:35	tomoj	nDuff: what is the anaphor?
10:35	clojurebot	monads are #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
10:36	bosie_	clgv: &(clojure-version)
10:36	bosie_	&(clojure-version)
10:36	lazybot	⇒ "1.4.0"
10:36	clgv	clojurebot has some weird version 1.4.0 if it has no reduce-kv ;)
10:36	tomoj	I thought reduce-kv was added in 1.5
10:37	babilen	no, reduce-kv was added in 1.4
10:37	tomoj	ah, yeah
10:37	clgv	tomoj: you should write more 1.4.0 ;)
10:38	nDuff	tomoj: When called as (!setup-logging!), I'm defining logger, log-info, log-warn, &c. against the local ns
10:38	tomoj	I'm on 1.5.0-RC3 everywhere
10:39	tomoj	nDuff: as new functions in the current ns?
10:39	bosie_	clgv: thanks
10:39	tomoj	mixfix bangs seem appropriate :)
10:40	nDuff	tomoj: Yes. Suppose I could take the function names as arguments, just to make it clearer.
11:02	AWizzArd	What is the difference between „ratio?” and „rational?”?
11:02	ticking	lol I'm doing clojure for almost a year now and still get bitten by contains? from time to time
11:02	ChongLi	ticking: bitten by?
11:03	ChongLi	ohhh yeah
11:04	ChongLi	you have to supply the index, not the value
11:04	ChongLi	this is where a type error would be helpful
11:04	ticking	ChongLi exactly
11:05	ticking	ChongLi actually I think a reasonable less expectation inducing term would have been better
11:05	ChongLi	this is one of those naming problems
11:06	ticking	I'd be happy with an additional 'in?
11:06	ChongLi	you can use some to check if a vector contains some value
11:07	ticking	yeah combined with sets, but checking for nil is still not possible with this
11:07	ChongLi	yeah to check for nil you gotta write your own function I suppose
11:07	ChongLi	using the nil? predicate
11:08	ticking	you'd have to do something like (apply or (map nil? col))
11:08	ticking	apply and rather
11:09	ChongLi	generally though it's not usually that useful to get a true/false answer about a collection
11:09	Bronsa	or and and are macros
11:09	Bronsa	you can't apply them
11:09	ChongLi	you'd usually be more interested in finding a specific value
11:10	ticking	really? damn
11:10	ticking	why for gods sake
11:10	ChongLi	because clojure is not a lazily evaluated language
11:10	ChongLi	you can't implement and/or with a normal function
11:10	ticking	ah I know so that they allow for shortcuts
11:11	ChongLi	and/or in haskell are just normal functions
11:11	ticking	ChongLi not really, macros allow just for call by name
11:11	ChongLi	which is nice because you can apply/map them
11:11	Bronsa	you can use some/not-any/every?
11:13	ticking	nDuff yeah that was the first name I thought of as well ^^
12:08	Foxboron	Now, i feel like a tard. I went about doing a fresh install of leiningen, but when i do "lein self-install", the download links complains about "forbidden" and wont download the 2.1.0-snapshot.
12:09	technomancy	Foxboron: get the stable version instead
12:09	Foxboron	technomancy: Roger.
12:10	Foxboron	technomancy: why do ya push 2.1.0 too master if its not ready yet btw?
12:13	technomancy	Foxboron: because master is where things go that aren't ready
12:14	Foxboron	technomancy: ah i see. I am more used too that being in a own branch. Thanks for the help tho ^^
12:16	technomancy	np
12:16	technomancy	are there any docs that point people to downloading bin/lein from the master branch? if so we should fix that
12:18	Foxboron	technomancy: i honestly believe its people's first reaction if they go too the github page. The lein docs point too stable tho.
12:19	Foxboron	technomancy: ya could consider switching the default branch from master too stable.
12:20	technomancy	I think that would change the branch people get when they clone too, which would be confusing
12:22	Foxboron	technomancy: thats actually true.
12:34	gfredericks	technomancy: did you ever express an opinion about the spies lib idea?
12:35	technomancy	gfredericks: just that tools.trace is worth looking at
12:36	gfredericks	technomancy: oh this was for testing not debugging
12:36	gfredericks	it's been suggested that spy is a bad name anyhow
12:37	gfredericks	the core functionality would be functions that track each of their calls so you can expect on them later
12:37	technomancy	right but it probably has mechanisms for what you want
12:37	technomancy	just use swap! instead of println
12:37	gfredericks	"has mechanisms" as implementation details or part of the API?
12:38	technomancy	no idea; have only briefly glanced at it
12:38	gfredericks	okay cool; thanks
12:38	technomancy	just worth looking at in depth before embarking on your own adventure
13:13	ChongLi	technomancy: is there a recommended way for repeatably adding google closure libraries to a cljs project in leiningen?
13:13	ohpauleez	ChongLi: Usually you use a goog.jar provided somewhere
13:13	ohpauleez	CLJS ships with one, there are a few others on Clojars
13:14	ChongLi	no I mean a 3rd party library
13:14	ChongLi	not a google one
13:14	ChongLi	a library written for the closure compiler
13:14	ohpauleez	You'd just jar it up and put it in a repository
13:14	ChongLi	oh ok
13:14	technomancy	ChongLi: never used cljs, sorry
13:14	ohpauleez	oooo what's the library?
13:14	ChongLi	gl-matrix
13:15	ohpauleez	ahh
13:15	technomancy	possibly relevant: http://www.webjars.org/
13:15	ChongLi	fast matrix math for javascript using typed arrays
13:59	josteink	in fact, they are very, very, very slow
14:00	josteink	but since they are free, they are my best shot at deploying clojure code without it costing a fortune :P
14:02	nDuff	josteink: Clojure can be run in App Engine, IIRC
14:02	bltavare_	josteink: what about heroku?
14:02	nDuff	josteink: ...likewise, Heroku's free tier.
14:03	josteink	never tried either of them
14:03	josteink	free tiers sounds good for fooling around though :)
14:03	josteink	maybe I should google around for some howtos
14:04	bltavare_	https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure
14:04	josteink	this will be a LOW traffic site. if it werent for me being a pedant, it could be fully server by PHP or even static hosting ;)
14:04	josteink	I just want to have fun with clojure and enlive though, so I need something which can run it :)
14:04	nDuff	...bigger issue with Heroku is that if you need anything other than hosting for the app server itself, that's not included with the free dyno
14:04	nDuff	ie. want a datastore? Well...
14:04	josteink	yeah. not going to need that
14:05	technomancy	both heroku and app engine will give you free hosting at the cost of idling, so your first request on an idled app will invoke process boot cost
14:05	bltavare_	nDuff: you have the postgresql free tier as well
14:05	josteink	this will be a "hey this is my homepage. no. Im not going to bother to blog, so there are none" kinda page :P
14:05	josteink	that sounds good
14:05	technomancy	app engine doesn't give you a full JDK, but they give you access to their bigtable custom data store instead.
14:06	josteink	technomancy: not sure i like the sound of non-standard datastores which cant be had anywhere else ;)
14:06	technomancy	you also won't get persistent disk with either one, but you don't get that with a micro anyway, you just get something that looks like a persistent disk if you're not paying attention
14:06	josteink	anyway
14:06	josteink	thanks for the feedback
14:07	josteink	guess Ill start off at the EC2 instance I already have (since that works right now) and see if I cant move it off to something a bit more sexy
14:07	nDuff	josteink: App Engine has a MySQL-compatible storage interface.
14:08	technomancy	ah, /me retracts his FUD =)
14:08	josteink	nDuff: ah good to know
14:09	josteink	even as someone who had a complete mysql meltdown last weekend :P
14:09	nDuff	...note that I didn't say it was MySQL. :)
14:09	josteink	heeh
14:09	technomancy	I have only deployed Mirah on App Engine. it was pretty bonkers, but that was probably more due to Mirah than App Engine. =)
14:10	technomancy	huh; it's still there. cool.
14:10	josteink	the demos Ive seen for app engine has all been very straight forward
14:10	josteink	it looks sexy enough
14:10	josteink	Im just already very heavily invested into google stuff(tm) and I dont see the need to get even deeper invested
14:11	josteink	not if other viable options exists
14:11	bltavare_	I have friends that use app engine for python and they kinda hate it, just saying
14:11	josteink	yeah
14:11	bltavare_	specially the way you store data there
14:11	josteink	Ill try to look into heroku first
14:12	josteink	thats at least a platform (which as far as I have heard) where people around the internets are able to contribute and make it better
14:12	cemerick	technomancy: don't be ashamed of your FUD. Spreading it effectively is a good skill to have. ;-P
14:12	josteink	not a single-god-google only sort of driven platform ;)
14:13	technomancy	cemerick: the project I did there was completely nuts; really immature compiler plus two completely new runtimes. (app engine/android)
14:13	technomancy	I'm surprised it still works
14:14	technomancy	https://ferrante-della-griva.appspot.com/
14:14	cemerick	I cringe every time I see an appspot.com URL
14:15	technomancy	I think the only reason I got it running is that one of the Mirah compiler authors works on the App Engine team
14:15	cemerick	Just screams "this is a toy platform" to me.
14:16	hiredman	I had a facebook app written in clojure on app engine for a while
14:17	nDuff	...dealing with AWS would be considerably more work.
14:17	hiredman	I just wanted a bar chart of the ages of my facebook friends
14:18	nDuff	(pulling down and cross-correlating bid estimates from the Texas Department of Transportation)
14:18	technomancy	will be interesting to see how google's infrastructure compute platform turns out
14:19	technomancy	does app engine have enough of a JDK to run a repl?
14:19	hiredman	the appengine platform is just weird
14:19	rboyd	nDuff: that's hilarious
14:19	hiredman	technomancy: yes
14:19	rboyd	nDuff: do you extort him with threats of releasing it to his employer?
14:20	technomancy	cool
14:20	hiredman	technomancy: it is pretty complete, they just have some threading classes blacklisted I believe
14:20	pbostrom	does anyone know why AWS micro is so slow? It seems like the drop off from small to micro is not linear compared to the specs
14:20	technomancy	hiredman: last I heard local filesystem as well?
14:20	technomancy	java.io.File and friends
14:21	rboyd	pbostrom: doesn't micro have some kind of cpu quota? I think it slows significantly when you're over quota
14:21	hiredman	technomancy: https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/java/runtime#The_Sandbox
14:21	hiredman	technomancy: yeah, that too
14:21	nDuff	rboyd: No extortion involved. Management is aware of said app, and said coworker's claims of being too busy to do anything else correspondingly adjusted in realism.
14:21	pbostrom	rboyd: makes sense, I remember reading something about CPU bursts
14:22	technomancy	why would they disallow signed jars? that's weird.
14:26	lucian	pbostrom: micro is extremely vulnerable to bad neighbours and they throttle it
14:33	pbostrom	micro instances give me the most trouble when starting lein (or probably more generally, the JVM). Once my app is up and running, I don't really notice the performance hit. Admittedly, my app is not very CPU intensive
14:33	hiredman	µ instances have always had trouble starting jvms, when they first became available trying to start a jvm on them would actually crash the instance
14:34	technomancy	pbostrom: do you use trampoline?
14:34	hiredman	lein starts 2 jvms
14:35	pbostrom	technomancy: no I do not, maybe I should
14:39	josteink	creating webpages in enlive just feels like cheating :)
14:41	borkdude	josteink the whole of clojure feels like cheating
14:46	pbostrom	TBH, I haven't quite gotten the hang of deployment, I just run lein as root, even though lein calls me out on it
14:48	gfredericks	technomancy: out of curiosity, why not trampoline all the time? or at least by default?
14:49	technomancy	gfredericks: it's a possibility. there are weird semantics around chaining that I'm still uncomfortable with. I want more people testing LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE too.
14:49	borkdude	gfredericks the answer is correctness over convenience last time I asked
14:49	amalloy	technomancy: what does LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE do?
14:49	technomancy	`lein do compile :all, clean` doesn't work as you'd expect, for instance.
14:49	technomancy	amalloy: memoize away the entire lein JVM
14:50	technomancy	subsequent invocations of the same command jump straight to the project JVM
14:50	amalloy	hah. so a map, used somehow in bash, from lein-args to trampoline-file-output?
14:51	technomancy	more or less
14:51	hiredman	https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/opensource/Conceptual/ShellScripting/AdvancedTechniques/AdvancedTechniques.html
14:51	hiredman	"Using the eval Builtin for Data Structures, Arrays, and Indirection"
14:52	technomancy	amalloy: lein args and project.clj checksum
14:54	TimMc	The map-updating can be done from Clojure, so that's nice.
15:00	TimMc	technomancy: Would you want to include the lein version in there somewhere?
15:00	ChongLi	hmmm so map over one coll is optimized for chunked sequences whereas with more than one coll it falls back on cons
15:00	TimMc	I don't know how often the trampoline script logic changes...
15:02	josteink	pbostrom: yeah same here. thats how I hope to keep things until I get heroku or "something better" sorted out ;)
15:02	josteink	(with regard to ec2 and startup time)
15:03	lynaghk	ibdknox: ping
15:05	ohpauleez	lynaghk: on the interwebs?!?!
15:06	lynaghk	ohpauleez: I HAVE RETURNED!
15:07	ohpauleez	SICK!
15:07	lynaghk	next time I go to New Zealand I'll be sure to pack the Internet =P
15:07	technomancy	TimMc: good point; maybe an issue for that?
15:09	technomancy	lynaghk: bouncer in ec2 us-west-2 dude =)
15:09	lynaghk	technomancy: last mile always kills
15:10	ibdknox	lynaghk: sup?
15:10	lynaghk	technomancy: aws has something in Japan now, which may be a bit closer. The friend I was travelling with asked the very pertinent question: "Kevin, where is the Internet anyway?"
15:10	technomancy	lynaghk: tried mosh?
15:10	lynaghk	ibdknox: yo. I'm in San Francisco for the next week---was wondering if you wanted to grab a coffee
15:11	lynaghk	technomancy: I remember running across this once before, but I'd forgotten about it. Looks really useful, thanks!
15:11	technomancy	I haven't used it, but I would if I were crossing the pacific over SSH on a regular basis =)
15:11	wei_	in compojure, how would I retrieve the payload of a request?
15:12	wei_	it's not encoded as application/x-www-form-urlencoded so not showing up even with wrap-params
15:12	ibdknox	lynaghk: absolutely! What part of town are you staying in?
15:13	lynaghk	ibdknox: okay to PM?
15:14	nDuff	Hmm.
15:14	Apage43	wei_: It's :body on the ring map. (POST "/bleh" {body :body} …)
15:16	wei_	Apage43: thanks, that was it
15:19	wei_	had to use (slurp body) to get the actual content
15:19	Apage43	ah, it was a stream oslt?
15:21	wei_	it was a #<HttpInput org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpInput@e9d222e>
15:21	wei_	that's why I couldn't find my original params when I printed out the entire ring map
16:35	Frozenlock	dnolen: accessing a field using (.-fieldname element) will not be munged, as opposed to (aget element "fieldname"), correct?
16:37	dnolen	Frozenlock: no .-fieldname will be munged. aget wont.
16:38	Frozenlock	Aaaaand that explain why my code doesn't work :)
16:38	Frozenlock	thanks
16:44	dnolen	Frozenlock: if it's isn't a string, JS keyword, or JS native - Closure will try to munge it.
16:45	zilti	Is there a good tutorial to start with Clojure's type system? I'd like to "extend" the reader.
16:46	wei_	when opening a browser repl with (repl/connect "http://localhost:9000/repl"), ever get the error "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method 'setParameterValue' of undefined" ? it occurs in a library function, goog.net.xpc.CrossPageChannel.prototype.getPeerUri
16:47	Frozenlock	wei_: without advanced compilation?
16:47	wei_	without. it happens with simple and whitespace
16:48	Frozenlock	Did you call repl/connect after the page is fully loaded?
16:48	Frozenlock	for example: (set! (.-onload js/window) #(repl/connect "http://localhost:9000/repl"))
16:49	wei_	trying that
16:50	wei_	same error, weird. https://gist.github.com/4659442
16:51	dnolen	wei_: you need to declare the Google Closure Third Party jar as a dependency are you doing that?
16:52	wei_	in project.clj? I think so, just added that to the gist.
16:52	wei_	though, I never needed to declare it before, using lein-cljsbuild
16:56	ChongLi	hmm
16:56	ChongLi	transient vectors are 90% slower than javascript typed arrays
16:59	ChongLi	I wonder if in certain cases it'd be cheaper just to do your mutation on a javascript typed array before converting to a vector
17:02	mjiig	can anyone help me fill in the blank to make this evaluate to true? http://paste.ubuntu.com/1583778/
17:05	Sgeo	4clojure?
17:06	nDuff	...smells that way to me.
17:06	amalloy	4clojure has no such problem. some other sort of koan project
17:07	technomancy	or homework
17:07	Frozenlock	technomancy: clojure in school? Nice.
17:07	mjiig	unfortunately not in school
17:07	mjiig	clojure koans on github
17:09	ChongLi	mjiig: are you aware of interpose
17:09	ChongLi	?
17:09	mjiig	no
17:09	ChongLi	&(apply str (interpose ", " ["hello" "mjiig"]))
17:09	lazybot	⇒ "hello, mjiig"
17:10	amalloy	i don't understand why reinventing clojure.string/join is so popular. it's not that hard to find, is it?
17:10	wink	jot really
17:10	Raynes	amalloy: I got a patch into kibit to replace any instance of 'apply str' with join.
17:10	ChongLi	haha
17:10	Raynes	All bases are covered there, people just need to use kibit now.
17:10	wink	mjiig: join, vals, and some sorting
17:11	ChongLi	it's just a habit I guess
17:11	wink	mhm, kibit
17:12	wink	10month old ticket I never finished up with :(
17:12	technomancy	Raynes: wat
17:12	ChongLi	I'm leery of lint tools
17:12	Raynes	technomancy: Be quiet single branch if boy.
17:12	pjstadig	kibit can be somewhat...schizophrenic
17:13	ChongLi	I recall haskell's lint tool frequently made suggestions that were type errors
17:13	Raynes	I've never encountered that in hlint.
17:13	technomancy	Raynes: there are tons of places where apply str is legitimate because you don't want to bother messing with the ns form to bring in clojure.string
17:13	ChongLi	I guess my code was pathological
17:13	ChongLi	haha
17:14	Raynes	technomancy: I doubt there are many. join should be faster than apply str as well. They are not equivalent.
17:14	brehaut	ChongLi: im sure the right permutation of compiler flags would resolve the type errors
17:14	technomancy	Raynes: that's the kind of call only a human is qualified to make
17:14	wei_	I resolved my js error from a while back.. with "lein cljsbuild clean" ._.
17:15	ChongLi	brehaut: no, I think it was genuinely a malformed transformation
17:15	TimMc	technomancy: Wait, you mean I shouldn't just use "Quick Fix" repeatedly in Eclipse until my code works?
17:15	Raynes	technomancy: This is a lint tool, sir. In almost all cases you want join. If you don't want join, you ignore the lint.
17:15	brehaut	ChongLi: sorry sorry, was trying to have a laugh at compier option boilerplate in GHC code
17:15	technomancy	I already ignore the hell out of it because it makes bad suggestions.
17:15	ChongLi	hey at least we're not using Go
17:15	ChongLi	where unused module imports are errors
17:16	craigbro	cleanliness!
17:16	sshack	Next to godliness.
17:16	craigbro	my resident Go hacker gets upset when the clojure compiler complains about my earmuffing non dynamic vars
17:16	ChongLi	brehaut: yeah I've seen my fair share of that
17:17	nDuff	/me tries using "lein kibit" for the first time, and gets a big fat NPE.
17:17	ChongLi	hell, even Haskell's figured out that sometimes you just want the compiler to shut up and let you test one thing without having to fix all of the type errors
17:18	pjstadig	don't hate on the type checker, it's just proving things about your code
17:18	pjstadig	like how wrong it is
17:18	hiredman	snap
17:18	ohpauleez	haha
17:18	ChongLi	pjstadig: oh, I have nothing against that
17:18	ChongLi	it's just nice that you can turn it off
17:19	ChongLi	so that it replaces all ill-typed expressions with run-time exceptions!
17:19	pjstadig	static BURN
17:20	technomancy	I really don't want to start getting pull requests saying "hey I made a bunch of kibit-suggested changes" that make my codebase stylistically inconsistent.
17:21	Raynes	You're awfully bitter these days, huh?
17:22	pjstadig	technomancy: just require people to sign a CA
17:22	ibdknox	lol
17:22	TimMc	ouch
17:22	Raynes	Or, you know, close the pull request and decline.
17:22	technomancy	pjstadig: that'll take care of those pesky contributors!
17:22	technomancy	"WONTFIX: your patch is bad and you should feel bad"
17:23	technomancy	I hate declining pull requests =(
17:23	brehaut	technomancy: dont forget to have jira as a second line of defense
17:26	ticking	the frequent bashing of clojures contrib policy makes me wonder how long it will take until the project forks ^^
17:26	ibdknox	a long time
17:26	pjstadig	forking would be bad for the community
17:27	pjstadig	not that the bashing is good for the community
17:27	technomancy	it would happen sooner if most of the problems couldn't be worked around in userspace
17:27	ibdknox	the community would have to be substantially larger
17:27	pjstadig	yeh
17:27	pjstadig	*yeah
17:27	ticking	ibdknox yeah but PL communities tend to grow exponentially
17:28	mjiig	thanks for the help got it working now
17:28	ibdknox	ticking: I don't think that'll be the case with Clojure
17:28	ticking	ibdknox which basically means a week from "thats nagging" and "all the forks" ;)
17:28	ibdknox	haha
17:29	tpope	has anyone ever successfully forked a mainstream language?
17:29	octagon	hello everyone! is there a way to look up a var if you have a string with its name? like ((lookup "my-ns/doit") "foo")
17:29	brehaut	tpope: other than microsoft ;)
17:29	tpope	clojure is far from the only language that's difficult to contribute to
17:29	ticking	ibdknox I think LT will give the community a big push on release due to news coverage
17:29	weavejester	Hum, incanter's docs are a little archaic
17:29	octagon	sorry, i mean in clojurescript
17:29	craigbro	LT?
17:29	clojurebot	defmulti doc is ugly
17:29	craigbro	oh, got it
17:29	amalloy	octagon: yes, but vars are generally intended to store things that you know about / use at compile time
17:29	TimMc	weavejester: Illuminated manuscripts?
17:30	craigbro	well, it may not fork
17:30	ibdknox	ticking: the original blog post tripled the the traffic to the Clojure github
17:30	pjstadig	octagon: clojurescript doesn't have vars
17:30	craigbro	but you could get balkanization
17:30	craigbro	ala CL
17:30	amalloy	in cljs? cljs doesn't have vars, so it's probably something like (aget js/window "x")
17:30	craigbro	it's something that languages where you write small composable bits are prone too
17:30	ticking	tpope I think it happened to a lot of them, all the lisps, for C every compiler is a fork, think of all the rubies ^^
17:30	TimMc	Clojure would be hella easy to fork, being a lib.
17:30	craigbro	as opposed to languages where you write big frameworks
17:30	weavejester	TimMc: Getting started pages from 2010 that assume Leiningen 1.1.0...
17:30	ibdknox	tpope: no one outside of a company has successfully forked a language. As brehaut said, MSFT has forked many :)
17:30	dnolen	octagon: if you plan on using advanced compilation you can't rely on stable ns names
17:31	craigbro	ibdknox: err, lisps, C++, C....
17:31	wkelly	does perl 5 continuing development count as a fork? :P
17:31	tpope	ticking: speaking to the ruby case, those aren't really forks, but alternate implementations
17:31	craigbro	ibdknox: smalltalk, awk, sed....
17:31	ticking	wkelly, if so then do python and python 3 ;)
17:31	craigbro	ibdknox: languages get forked regularly
17:31	octagon	dnolen: have you found any significant improvement with advanced compilation? i haven't been able to see a difference myself
17:31	ibdknox	craigbro: I assumed that "successful" in this case means that the fork overtakes the original
17:32	ticking	tpope right, but I'm shure they're not 100% compatible ;)
17:32	pjstadig	forking happens because of community issues
17:32	craigbro	tpope:the difference between fork and different implementation exists only at time of creation, and usualy diverges after that
17:32	pjstadig	and if there's no hope of unification, then forking doesn't make sense
17:32	dnolen	octagon: if you're aware of the type of optimizations at play it will be much faster - also huge code sizing savings
17:32	weavejester	Even the getting-started wiki page for Incanter is 2 years old...
17:32	tpope	I was setting a lower bar than "overtaking"
17:32	craigbro	hmm, weird deifnition of forking, but alright
17:32	tpope	but I was specifically referring to source forks
17:32	ohpauleez	As far as CA blues is concerned - it seems like you can email dev admins a signed CA, and they'll mail it in for you
17:32	craigbro	pjstadig: forking happens for lots of reasons, including technological ones
17:33	tpope	which was the implied response to clojure's contrib policy
17:33	octagon	dnolen: i know dead code elimiination is a thing, but generally i have small libraries that get compiled via lein, so i don't think much elimination can be done
17:33	pjstadig	craigbro: technological differences mirror community problems
17:33	craigbro	pjstadig: bullshit 8^)
17:33	pjstadig	craigbro: that's it i'm forking clojure
17:33	craigbro	pjstadig: I win!
17:33	ohpauleez	So with the scanned CA + http://clojure-doc.org/ - this fixes two of the most frequently issues for Clojure community
17:34	ticking	pjstadig I'd call not being able to contribute to a language a community issue ;) , I got a tripple tested multi implemented ultra performance tuned partition-between lying around that would allow a twice as fast partition-by (by using it with (fn [a b] (not (==a b))) alone)
17:34	hiredman	weavejester: what are you looking at incanter for? charts?
17:34	weavejester	hiredman: Charts and basic stat functions
17:34	craigbro	I would give them some time to reconsider THEIR priorities
17:34	craigbro	clojure core that is
17:35	craigbro	before forking or something like that
17:35	hiredman	weavejester: for chart stuff using jfreechart directly is not that bad, and it is more flexible then what incanter offers
17:35	dnolen	octagon: if dead code eliminations isn't important to you then - then you can be more free w/ your style. But it will probably limit who will be interested in adopting your CLJS library.
17:35	Natch	do I really have to create a new lein template if I want all my "lein new" project.clj files to include some sane defaults?
17:35	ticking	wavejester, yeah Incanter is a pita api wise, but there are not many options ^^
17:35	weavejester	hiredman: It's just to get an idea of where the bottleneck of a system is. No apps - just need some visualization.
17:35	Raynes	Natch: Well, yeah. Not sure what you'd rather have.
17:36	pjstadig	right, you could always engage people about changing the default template to have "sane" defaults
17:37	Raynes	If the defaults are currently insane, I'd happily take a patch to change them to sane ones.
17:37	Raynes	:p
17:37	Raynes	technomancy and I don't care much for insane.
17:37	octagon	dnolen: i should be able to ^:export symbols in my namespace and be able to find them via js/my_ns.foo, right?
17:37	octagon	dnolen: even under advanced compilation
17:37	pjstadig	i think we should have temporarily insane defaults IMHO
17:38	technomancy	Natch: if you have development-time tools you want to share across all your projects, you should put them in your user profile
17:38	Natch	Raynes: sane for me that is, like different license and such
17:39	Raynes	Natch: Yeah, that's what the templates are for. I know it's quite a bit of overhead just for changing a few things in project.clj, but we went for the most flexible option. It would have been quite a bit less flexible to just have 'project.clj' templates.
17:40	Natch	technomancy: yes, I already do that. what I wanted was something like a setting in a ~/.lein/ file that would put a few things in all my new project.clj files
17:40	Raynes	Things like luminus wouldn't have been possible.
17:40	Natch	Raynes: honestly I'd rather write a script that does it for me than bother with templates. so much work for such a small change
17:41	technomancy	just the license?
17:41	Raynes	It's likely just copy paste, find replace, and your change. If you decided to go the template route that is.
17:44	Raynes	It's a pretty good language.
17:44	Raynes	It's okay.
17:46	Natch	technomancy: pretty much
17:47	technomancy	it's not MIT/X11, is it?
17:48	Natch	technomancy: it's not my default license, no
17:48	technomancy	Natch: part of the problem is that it's only recently that we've had access to a comment-preserving reader
17:48	technomancy	so operations which treat defproject as data and write back to project.clj haven't been possible until sjacket
17:50	tpope	was that a setup for some lecture about MIT/X11?
17:50	Raynes	tpope: Yes.
17:50	Raynes	Meet technomancy.
17:50	Natch	MIT/X11 is bad now?
17:50	tpope	I would like to hear
17:50	technomancy	Natch: it doesn't have a patent protection clause
17:50	Natch	technomancy: I see
17:50	technomancy	so someone can submit a patch, get acquired by Oracle, and sue your users
17:51	technomancy	most licenses longer than a page don't have this problem
17:51	Natch	ouch
17:55	technomancy	course you can always erect a CA process with its own explicit patent grant to prevent that
17:55	technomancy	or you could pick a more discerning license
17:57	mybuddymichael	So what's the X11-plus-patent-clause license?
17:57	tpope	going out on a limb here but I'm guessing it's the default license
17:58	tpope	aka eclipse
17:58	technomancy	most people pick apache v2, but that has this annoying "you must put license boilerplate in every single file" clause
17:58	technomancy	if they want to avoid copyleft
17:58	tpope	oh fuck that shit
17:58	sshack	technomancy: In X11's defence, it was created back in a time when computers were in black and white.
17:59	technomancy	I'm not aware of a good non-copyleft non-boilerplate patent-safe license
17:59	tpope	so why is eclipse the default?
17:59	technomancy	unless you want to take a scalpel to apachev2 and perform a clause-ectomy
17:59	ChongLi	recommended for lawyers only IMO
18:00	technomancy	tpope: it's what Clojure uses and I don't hate it, mostly
18:00	technomancy	my least favourite thing about it is the name
18:00	ChongLi	yeah it's confusing
18:00	tpope	I'm no lawyer but I see the word patent in there like 10 times
18:01	tpope	yes I hate the name :(
18:02	blr	tpope: does your appearance in this channel suggest the possibility of life improvements for pariah clojure vim users? :)
18:02	tpope	blr: have you not seen foreplay.vim?
18:02	blr	no O.o
18:02	tpope	I never posted it to the mailing list :/
18:03	TimMc	technomancy: If you really want to scare off contributors, you can add an IP assignment clause. "While you have Leiningen's source code checked out, any work you do that I might find useful in the future is assigned to me."
18:03	tpope	was saving that for post-rename
18:03	technomancy	TimMc: I'll run that by salesforce legal
18:03	TimMc	If companies do it, why not FOSS project? :-P
18:03	tpope	but I don't have a good name to rename too
18:03	blr	oh, good show man!
18:03	jballanc	tpope: what's wrong with the name?
18:03	jballanc	;-)
18:03	blr	this looks swanky
18:03	mybuddymichael	tpope: The name is dynamite.
18:03	tpope	jballanc: some people have expressed concerns with evangelizing it to their colleagues
18:04	tpope	a fair point, I guess
18:04	mybuddymichael	Honestly, vim-intercourse would be more apt.
18:04	mybuddymichael	That's how great it is.
18:04	tpope	I try not to have those kinds of colleagues but to each his own
18:04	mybuddymichael	But I digress.
18:04	blr	tpope: I think most vim users are probably all a bit broken anyway, can't imagine it would be a problem
18:04	jballanc	tpope: tell them it's named after your favorite Boston song ;-) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuLpztWyFA
18:04	blr	let the prudes use eclipse!
18:05	tpope	blr: that's what I said when I named it
18:05	tpope	nobody complained for a month
18:05	ChongLi	I like the close-quarters-combat mnemonic for invoking foreplay
18:05	tpope	but then like 3 people voiced concerns
18:05	clojurebot	max people is 317
18:05	ChongLi	cqc
18:05	ChongLi	fantastic
18:05	tpope	ChongLi: neat mnemonic
18:06	dnolen	octagon: yes
18:13	babilen	tpope: I was one of those three and /I/ don't really mind the name. My comment was spurred by comments from collegues and my gf ... I don't mind the name, but /some/ people will have a problem with it.
18:13	babilen	seriously, if I would waste time and energy on something like that I would get nothing done :)
18:14	tpope	well another didn't really mind the name either
18:14	tpope	it's basically just this redl guy
18:14	tpope	maintaining a butchered fork just because he doesn't like the name
18:14	babilen	I was quite sad when I read that mail
18:15	mybuddymichael	tpope: I'd say definitely don't change the name just for one guy.
18:15	babilen	The features look useful (I haven't found time to investigate fully), but forking over something so trivial is, well, a bad step.
18:15	jsnoob_	are there any good orms for clojure? i didn't get much when i tried google, so i'd have to assume not
18:16	tpope	jsnoob_: spoiler alert: clojurists hate ORMs
18:16	babilen	jsnoob_: korma? (not a real ORM)
18:16	weavejester	There's a lot of SQL abstraction libraries
18:16	babilen	functional objects in persistent mutibility heaven?
18:17	technomancy	jsnoob_: there are DB libs, but nothing particularly satisfying yet
18:17	weavejester	But ORM is inherently OOP.
18:17	technomancy	all existing SQL libraries are widely regarded as having deep-seated shortcomings.
18:17	craigbro	really?
18:17	craigbro	what is kormas?
18:17	tpope	speaking of stuff clojurists hate
18:17	tpope	speclj
18:18	tpope	this guy says it's popular https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay/issues/45
18:18	tpope	I don't believe him
18:18	jsnoob_	tpope, any particular reason why?
18:18	ibdknox	craigbro: nothing lives up to technomancy standards
18:18	jsnoob_	not like i can't write a join, it's just a bit easier to prototype without messing with sql
18:18	weavejester	technomancy: I think some could be improved, but I'm not sure I'd say they had deep-seated shortcomings...
18:18	tpope	I don't want to believe him
18:18	craigbro	I can think of things I would want changed in kroma, but no deep-seated shortcomings
18:18	technomancy	craigbro: a few main things: 0) it forces connection pooling which should be an orthogonal concern, 1) it forces a top-level connection def and doesn't let you handle scoping connections yourself, and 2) entity definitions are coupled to vars and can't be handed around in a really first-class way.
18:18	technomancy	0 and 1 could probably be fixed
18:18	TimMc	tpope: Changing the name is probably appropriate.
18:19	technomancy	without too much hassle
18:19	tpope	jsnoob_: they're just overly complex and not particularly functional
18:19	craigbro	I don't use entities
18:19	ibdknox	technomancy: none of those are close to deepseated
18:19	weavejester	technomancy: Actually now that you mention it, I agree with all those points :)
18:19	weavejester	But I'm not sure I'd call them deepseated
18:19	craigbro	hehe
18:19	ibdknox	technomancy: you could have easily fixed those in the time you spend telling everyone how shitty it is
18:20	TimMc	tpope: The current name kind of gives a "naming is hard and so am I" sort of vibe.
18:20	weavejester	Woah, let's be nice here
18:20	craigbro	I think thats a valid response
18:20	tpope	naming is hard and so is expiring caches
18:20	ibdknox	weavejester: everytime someone mentions korma he does this.
18:20	technomancy	ok, sorry; I was thinking more of c.j.jdbc with the deep-seated comment.
18:20	craigbro	it's working quite well for me
18:21	tpope	I don't really like the name, I just like everything else less
18:21	TimMc	heh
18:21	hyPiRion	tpope: naming is hard, but expiring caches are easier than finding a good system design
18:21	weavejester	My problem is more with SQL than any abstraction layer.
18:22	craigbro	I find that my actual engineering problems are more deep-seated than any fail in a clojure library or tool that can't be patched with a little (load "monkeypath.clj") action
18:22	weavejester	It's such a bad language, it's hard to write anything good around it.
18:22	hyPiRion	At least you can figure out if your caches are erroneous or not, but that's not the case for design.
18:22	craigbro	weavejester: I do a ton of functioanl sql generation with korma, it's pretty sweet. I also help implement an SQL syntax in CL (see UncommonLisp, also an ORM) ages ago
18:23	craigbro	i find functional generation as useful, and often easier to deal with, than the syntax in USQL
18:24	ibdknox	weavejester: it's a hard problem :( I would argue it's not even SQL's fault so much as RDBMs just don't actually match how we write/think about software.
18:25	craigbro	I would have to understand weavejester's issues more to comment on that, ibdknox
18:25	ibdknox	ah
18:26	weavejester	ibdknox: I have a few issues with the relational model in general, but more with SQL.
18:26	ibdknox	yeah, I guess he might've just meant that it doesn't make it easy to do composition
18:26	weavejester	Well, yep, that's a big one :)
18:26	ibdknox	yeah, that one is just plain stupid
18:26	craigbro	composition?
18:27	craigbro	you mean combining queries together?
18:27	craigbro	not using union and such...?
18:27	ibdknox	or parts of queries
18:27	weavejester	Being able to build a query out of smaller components.
18:27	craigbro	oh, I wrote some of those
18:28	craigbro	(ensure-joined...
18:28	ibdknox	things like order shouldn't matter
18:28	ibdknox	when it comes to the clauses
18:28	craigbro	that's easy to get around
18:28	craigbro	you are building a map representing the query anyways
18:28	craigbro	spitting it out in proper order doesn't matter
18:28	weavejester	Like… [[:from :users] [:where (> :id 1)] [:project :name]]
18:29	ibdknox	right, in Korma it doesn't matter
18:29	craigbro	oh, I thought we were talking about korma
18:29	ibdknox	but it's a fundamental failing of SQL's design that it can't do that itself :)
18:29	craigbro	ok, well, that's a lame complaint
18:29	craigbro	sorry
18:29	weavejester	But all SQL abstraction systems have to do a lot of work to get to that point.
18:29	craigbro	no
18:29	weavejester	And it's almost always imperfect.
18:29	craigbro	the clause sets are well defined
18:29	ibdknox	eh
18:30	craigbro	the order is well defined
18:30	craigbro	ok, maybe I'm being too glib with that "well defined"
18:30	ibdknox	with vendor specifics it's not
18:30	weavejester	Also SQL sorta-kinda-not-really cares about order.
18:31	weavejester	Like if you have a bunch of joins the order doesn't matter
18:31	weavejester	But put in a subselect and it does.
18:31	weavejester	SQL groups together a bunch of separate relational operations
18:33	weavejester	Projection (which SQL calls select), selection (which SQL calls where), renames (as), and all the joins
18:33	craigbro	weavejester, ibdknox: I have 1600+ lines of functioanl sql composition using Korma 8^)
18:33	ibdknox	damn
18:33	ibdknox	lol
18:33	weavejester	It's like having a class when what you want is function composition.
18:34	craigbro	it works
18:34	craigbro	what I find could use some improvement is composition of conditionals
18:34	craigbro	they are a bit opaque at the public korma api level
18:34	ibdknox	yeah
18:34	craigbro	I have some helpers to do things like join to a table if it's not already joined
18:35	craigbro	composition of fields is fine (tho it's a bit surprising when you add a fields clause to a select that had no fields, and losea bunch of stuff that was in the results before (because the * is replaced y the fields)
18:35	craigbro	also, composition of order-by clauses would be nice (but a bit tricky)
18:36	ibdknox	craigbro: when it comes to fields what is the behavior you would expect?
18:36	craigbro	what happens now, it's just mildly surprising
18:36	ibdknox	yeah, I certainly don't disagree
18:36	rationalrevolt	In compojure, are (GET "/app" ..) and (GET "/app/" ..) mean different routes? with the for former requests to /app and /app/foo go through, but with the later only /app/foo goes through
18:37	craigbro	I would like to be able to extract theconditional clause
18:37	weavejester	rationalrevolt: "/app*" would allow "/appfoo" as well as "/app/foo"
18:37	rationalrevolt	yup, thats true
18:38	weavejester	rationalrevolt: With regard to the ending /, I think I need some sort of redirect in the route macros, perhaps.
18:38	craigbro	ibdknox: what I have found tho, is that by the time my functioanl SQL composition gets too hairy, I'm already confusing the hell out of the query planner 8^)
18:38	weavejester	Because "/foo/" should redirect to "/foo". A 200 OK response from both would be wrong.
18:39	craigbro	ibdknox: which tells me I should be making some derived tables or some other means of doing the query
18:39	ibdknox	lol
18:39	craigbro	well, it's true 8^)
18:40	craigbro	I gota 4tb postgresql server sitting on a big ZFS pool, and if I make it cry, then... well, not much more I can ask of postgresql
18:40	craigbro	in other words, I don't need composition to be better at the korma level (tho I do have some mild complaints)
18:41	craigbro	when I need to do is use a different tool, instead of an RDBMS in some cases
18:41	rationalrevolt	weavejester: another similar question - in compojure.route/resources - should specifiying the options with {:root ""} and {:root "/"} mean different? When i tried the former works and the later doesn't
18:41	craigbro	ibdknox: other than composing conditionals (let me add a (where clause to a query, ORing it with the existing one....))
18:42	weavejester	rationalrevolt: Java resources don't have a beginning "/". (Normally, anyway…)
18:42	weavejester	rationalrevolt: And setting the :root to "" is a bad idea, because it exposes your source code.
18:42	ibdknox	craigbro: that's a hard one
18:42	craigbro	ibdknox: adding WHERE operators like ILIKE should be a standard operation (def-conditional-op or something
18:42	ibdknox	craigbro: that would be relatively straightforward to add I think
18:43	ibdknox	craigbro: the right course of action is probably to dump strings
18:43	craigbro	ibdknox: also, I have some monkeypatches to add UNION and INTERSECTION of queries
18:43	craigbro	ibdknox: have you see USQL?
18:43	ibdknox	nope
18:43	craigbro	ibdknox: breaks down the full sql syntax, from the token level up, into CLOS objects
18:44	craigbro	ibdknox: you can then emit those as strings for various target DBs
18:44	rationalrevolt	the ring resource-response works the same for both
18:44	cemerick	it sounds like Clojure/lein on windows is a solved issue these days...
18:44	craigbro	ibdknox: obviously, being clojure, it would be maps, not objects. And I think right now in korma the only things like that already are conditionals, right?
18:44	weavejester	rationalrevolt: IIRC that's because it has some code that removes a beginning "/"
18:44	technomancy	cemerick: sure, just use ccw =)
18:44	cemerick	anyone here have issues re: windows + clojure?
18:45	technomancy	cemerick: having to manually download curl is pretty silly
18:45	cemerick	technomancy: well, ccw doesn't run lein tasks, and I probably wouldn't ever use it for that, anyway :-)
18:45	technomancy	oh... I didn't realize that. is it in the works?
18:45	cemerick	I'm OK with that. curl sucks pretty badly.
18:46	cemerick	technomancy: you'd have to ask lpetit what his current priorities are, but I'd guess not
18:46	ibdknox	craigbro: it uses vectors in some spaces, but it keeps most things as data until the end
18:46	technomancy	I was vaguely considering writing a bin/lein replacement in elisp that could launch a Leiningen nrepl server and talk to it from eshell.
18:46	cemerick	technomancy: except for `lein repl`, which will soon replace all of ccw's custom launch stuff
18:46	ibdknox	craigbro: it gets aggressive with string creation in where clauses, but I don't remember why I did that originally
18:46	rationalrevolt	weavejester: yup, thats correct
18:47	technomancy	mostly just to prove a point to people who lord it over bash that powershell is OOP instead of string-based.
18:47	cemerick	heh
18:47	technomancy	but also to help with startup time
18:47	technomancy	kind of a resurrection of 1.x's `lein interactive`
18:47	cemerick	well, you have to give the powershell folk credit for being usefully contrarian there
18:48	craigbro	ibdknox: oh, some oher minor nits, would prefer it show me queries with the vars included, not the ?'s 8^)
18:48	technomancy	well, they're hardly the first to notice that "everything as strings" is not a good least-common-denominator.
18:48	craigbro	ibdknox: makes it a bit of a pain to EXPLAIN a generated query of any complexity 8)
18:49	amalloy	craigbro: i doubt if korma actually replaces the ?s itself, so it doesn't really have queries with vars included
18:49	ibdknox	correct
18:50	ibdknox	delegates to JDBC so that I can't fuck it up
18:50	ibdknox	screwing up query escaping = not cool ;)
18:50	craigbro	amalloy: Yah, I know
18:50	craigbro	amalloy: if it coudl get the SQL from JDBC and present that... woudl be ideal
18:50	cemerick	technomancy: I think they're OK with not being first ;-)
18:50	amalloy	ibdknox: isn't being on the front page of HN cool?
18:50	craigbro	as it is, I either hit my DB logs, or just edit it by hand
18:50	craigbro	??
18:50	lazybot	craigbro: Definitely not.
18:51	ibdknox	amalloy: hm?
18:51	amalloy	if you messed up query escaping you'd be cool
18:51	ibdknox	ah
18:51	ibdknox	haha
18:51	craigbro	amalloy: don't do that 8) I horridly loaded HN and was about to wake my ops guy
18:51	ibdknox	amalloy: oh yes. I mean, hey, the rails kids are doing it.. :D
18:51	craigbro	hurriedly
18:52	ibdknox	not that we can say much given the number of JVM zero days that have been coming up lately...
18:53	craigbro	ibdknox: sandbox escaping, not a issue for server side apps
18:58	craigbro	the first library I ever wrote was an ORM for perl (97 or so), then I ended up using EOF for a few years, and then I co-wrote an ORM in common lisp, and then used lots of ActiveRecord, and then lots of DataMapper -- good riddance to all of them, hello FRP!
19:02	warz	fiber reinforced plastic?
19:02	ibdknox	functional reactive programming
19:03	technomancy	I'm working on a branch of clojars that uses event sourcing instead of SQL
19:03	technomancy	of course, clojars is cheating since the data set is trivial
19:03	technomancy	but it's fun
19:04	ibdknox	that's neat
19:04	hiredman	I bet you can buy fiber reinforced plastic on amazon industrial
19:04	warz	is FRP another way of saying event driven?
19:05	warz	kind of like javascript or something
19:05	warz	event emitters in js
19:05	ibdknox	no
19:05	ibdknox	warz: http://elm-lang.org/
19:05	ibdknox	check that out :)
19:05	warz	is my head going to explode
19:05	hiredman	elm is functional reactive, not functional relational, no?
19:06	mybuddymichael	ibdknox: From that site: "some values change over time"...
19:06	technomancy	hiredman: same acronym either way =)
19:06	mybuddymichael	ಠ_ಠ
19:06	ibdknox	hiredman: oh, I thought we were talking about reactive. But you are probably right lol
19:06	hiredman	from the context I got relational
19:07	ibdknox	that would make sense
19:08	craigbro	FRP = functional relational programming
19:08	craigbro	in my use
19:08	craigbro	not functional reactive 8^)
19:09	craigbro	I'm out...
19:09	hiredman	the less mentioned frp, but larger driving force behind clojure and datomic
19:11	rkz	hi guys I'm writing a simple rest api wrapper, just wondering what the best way to store the creds is? sometihng like make-api-client that takes creds map and returns a closure?
19:11	rkz	any good exmples?
19:12	hiredman	why not just use the creds map?
19:12	rkz	for every fn call?
19:12	hiredman	rkz: yes
19:12	rkz	could do but might be a bit annoying when using from repl
19:12	warz	elm looks cool
19:13	hiredman	rkz: less annoying then trying to gin up some kind of opaque closure?
19:13	rkz	true
19:13	hiredman	(do-something {:user ... :pass ...} some-data more-data)
19:14	rkz	looking at this for inspiration, but I think defining protocols is overkill https://github.com/sunng87/reddit.clj/blob/master/src/reddit/clj/core.clj
19:14	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/propS3t is an s3 library that just uses clojure datastructures, it is pretty nice to work with, if I do say so myself
19:21	n_b	rkz: It's pretty idiomatic to have something like what hiredman suggested
19:21	clojurebot	hiredman is lazy
19:22	n_b	much moreso than a closure. Look at Raynes' Tentacles library for an example
19:30	rkz	ok I'm with you
19:31	rkz	going to do it that way
19:31	rkz	then maybe do something like this http://cemerick.com/2011/10/17/a-la-carte-configuration-in-clojure-apis/
19:39	aaelony	can anyone recommend a good, free profiler?
19:47	TimMc	clojurebot: FRP?
19:47	clojurebot	FRP is functional reactive programming, or maybe fiberglass reinforced plastic
19:50	TimMc	hiredman: Have you started making changes to clojurebot's factoid interface?
19:52	tmciver	I'd like to separate the interface to a data store from the implementation so I could easily change between using SQLite, MySQL or XML, for example. Is there an idiomatic way to do that in Clojure?
19:52	tmciver	Is defprotocal an accaptable way to do this?
19:54	tmciver	I suppose I could use a set of same-named functions in different namespaces with different corresponding implementations.
19:55	ChongLi	tmciver: the key issue is the differences between the various back-ends
19:55	amalloy	protocols or multimethods would be the way to go, although honestly you'll probably discover that the differences are too significant to paper over
19:56	ChongLi	this ties right into Clojure's philosophy of not wrapping
19:56	tmciver	amalloy: so I'd be better of just committing to a single storage mechanism?
19:56	ChongLi	Clojure deliberately exposes the power of its host platform (the JVM or js in the case of CLJS)
19:57	ChongLi	if it used a wrapper for portability, you'd be stuck with the intersection of all the platforms
19:57	brehaut	amalloy: but lossy abstractions are what polymorphism is all about
19:57	TimMc	tmciver: It depends on how much of each backend's specialties you want to take advantage of.
19:58	ChongLi	and how much effort you're willing to put into your library knowing it'll have these limitations
19:58	TimMc	tmciver: You'll also have to make sure your abstraction either doesn't guarantee ACID, or implement it for XML-on-disk.
19:59	tmciver	TimMc: Hmm, true. Perhaps I'd be better off sticking with SQL and using something like korma.
19:59	ChongLi	korma's a very nice library from what I hear
20:02	ChongLi	it certainly looks nice, judging from the code on its site
20:02	ChongLi	ibdknox uses some nice designs for his sites too
21:02	hiredman	is there a core.logic mailing list?
21:39	harto	Hello #clojure. If I have a symbol (e.g. 'VK_A), and I want to use it to get the value of a class field (e.g. KeyEvent/VK_A), what's the easiest way to do that?
21:40	harto	e.g. the (working) equivalent of (let [x 'VK_A] (. KeyEvent x))
21:40	dnolen	harto: probably reflection
21:41	harto	yeah ok, I suspected as much
21:43	gfredericks	harto: if you have the symbol at compile-time you can do it with a macro
21:43	harto	,(clojure.lang.Reflector/getStaticField "java.awt.event.KeyEvent" "VK_A")
21:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
21:44	harto	gfredericks: yeah I messed around with that but couldn't see a nice way to do it
21:45	gfredericks	(defmacro static-getter [sym] `(. KeyEvent ~sym))?
21:46	harto	huh, guess I didn't try hard enough :-)
21:46	gfredericks	then you'd call (static-getter VK_A)
21:47	gfredericks	now I'm not really sure what's being gained anymore :/
21:47	dnolen	gfredericks: nothing gained :)
21:48	dnolen	macro means you won't be able to use a symbol stored in a local
21:50	harto	right
21:51	gfredericks	also since you said "easiest", eval is probably easier than relfection :P
21:52	TimMc	(-> java.awt.event.KeyEvent class (.getDeclaredField "VK_A")) ;;= 65
21:53	TimMc	whoops, wrong one
21:53	TimMc	(-> java.awt.event.KeyEvent (.getDeclaredField "VK_A") (.get nil))
21:53	TimMc	harto: ^
21:56	harto	hmm
21:57	harto	yeah, eval looks ok: (let [x 'VK_A] (eval `(. KeyEvent ~x)))
21:58	dnolen	harto: just note that eval in Clojure triggers compilation, probaly much slower than even reflection.
21:59	harto	thanks dnolen
22:00	dnolen	and by much slower, if you put that code in a loop, it can run only 2000 times or so in 1second on 2.66ghz i7
22:01	gfredericks	I just furb'd it at the repl and eval was 177 times slower
22:01	dnolen	177 times slower than reflection is crazy given how slow reflection is.
22:02	harto	D:
22:02	gfredericks	today's lesson: don't compile your code in a tight loop.
22:04	dnolen	gfredericks: on my machine it's >1000X slower than TimMc's suggestion.
22:04	amalloy	gfredericks: but that's everyone's first instinct when they learn about lisp! data is code, so what if i built a genetic algorithm to generate programs!!! i could stop when it does what i want!!!
22:05	dnolen	eval is rarely a good answer
22:06	gfredericks	amalloy: quick, let's write a genetic algorithm and see if we can generate programs that access static members of classes!
22:06	gfredericks	there's still time!
22:06	amalloy	you could write a macro that does a bunch of reflection at compile time, and emits lookup functions that are fast
22:08	fcabral	Hello, is it possible to use re-seq in cond but be able to bind the returned seqs?
22:10	TimMc	$latest hugod/criterium
22:10	lazybot	No project by this name exists on clojars.
22:11	TimMc	$latest criterium
22:11	lazybot	[criterium "0.3.1"] -- https://clojars.org/criterium
22:31	mcohen3	there's a point in Hickey's "Language of the System" talk where he says it's your job not to create a system that's just about different services/systems triggering events on each other....i'm curious if any folks here can recommend some good (recent) reading material that talks about how to design distributed systems composed of services
22:42	rationalrevolt	&(doc refer-clojure)
22:42	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& filters]); Same as (refer 'clojure.core <filters>)"
22:47	rclarkson	how do i url stringify a map?
22:53	brehaut	rclarkson: how do you what now?
22:53	rclarkson	brehaut: what?
22:53	rclarkson	i have a map i wanna convert into a url string
22:53	brehaut	"how do i url stringify a map?" that could mean so many things
22:53	xeqi	rclarkson: are you looking for something like https://github.com/cemerick/url and how it handles :query ?
22:54	rclarkson	yeah i recall that it was part of ring
22:56	brehaut	i suspect he's thinking of something in http://ring-clojure.github.com//ring/ring.util.codec.html like url-encode
22:57	brehaut	but i dont think it does what he htinks it does
22:57	callenbot	dammit, he left
22:58	callenbot	I was going to ask what his native tongue was
22:58	callenbot	because it obviously wasn't English.
22:58	callenbot	I'm going to guess...swedish.
22:58	brehaut	based on my own inability with english, i would never assume that
22:58	tomoj	what was wrong with his english?
22:59	callenbot	brehaut: hostmask included telia, he's sweidsh.
22:59	callenbot	swedish*
22:59	callenbot	tomoj: couldn't express himself
22:59	octagon	hi! what would be the best way to go about defining functions in a namespace that are also in clojure.core, ex. map, identity, etc. How can i define these in my namespace without having to do core/map core/identity, etc all throughout my namespace?
23:00	callenbot	octagon: why are you naming things like that?
23:00	octagon	callenbot: well i'm making a library that does all the familiar things that are in core but with a different evaluation semantic
23:00	brehaut	octagon: :refer-clojure in your namespace
23:01	octagon	callenbot: the client would use them as (x/map foo bar) (x/identity foo) etc
23:01	callenbot	octagon: what sort of semantics?
23:01	brehaut	octagon: and then require clojure.core as something short
23:01	octagon	brehaut: yes but i was trying to avoid that
23:01	octagon	i was thinking maybe there was a way to export symbols or something
23:01	brehaut	octagon: well dont. that would make your code impossible to reason about
23:02	amalloy	indeed. inside your library, you can't define a function called map and have the symbol 'map refer to clojure.core/map
23:02	brehaut	octagon: what you are asking is really to have two values for one name, and have the compiler magically guess the right one
23:03	octagon	i suppose i could have one ns like foo.impl that has my-map, my-identity, etc, and another namespace foo.core that does (def map foo.impl/my-map) etc
23:03	octagon	then the user would :require foo.core
23:03	brehaut	that seems needlessly complex
23:03	octagon	they could then use foo.core/map foo.core/identity
23:04	TimMc	gfredericks: I couldn't even get a benchmark out of criterium with the eval method. It just hung. :-/
23:04	brehaut	also, as an aside: core namespaces are a hack. use a better name if you can
23:04	octagon	brehaut: how do you mean "hack"?
23:04	octagon	brehaut: thanks for the help btw
23:05	brehaut	octagon: because single segment namespaces (eg foo) dont work nicely outside of clojure (ie in java) foo.core namespaces were created as a compromise
23:05	brehaut	but its forced
23:05	brehaut	if you can have libraryname.meaningfulname its better
23:05	brehaut	ie, i have a library im writing called basilisk, and it bundles stuff so the primary namespace is basilisk.bundle
23:05	octagon	i see, thanks brehaut
23:05	brehaut	no problem
23:06	brehaut	i think lein does the right thing now with 2+ segment names now when creating a project
23:06	octagon	the default thing with lein is to make the last segment "core" :)
23:07	brehaut	hmm. im sure there was noise about fixing that
23:08	octagon	i am probably using an older version
23:08	brehaut	ive got my local lein into a funny state so im not using 2 release, otherwise i'd test it properly
23:09	Raynes	brehaut, octagon: I've began namespacing and renamespacing my projects to have a me.raynes.<project-name> structure
23:09	brehaut	Raynes: rdn naming is not panacea
23:09	Raynes	brehaut: 'rdn'?
23:09	brehaut	Raynes: reverse domain name
23:09	Raynes	brehaut: So there is something wrong with my naming scheme?
23:10	Raynes	I was pretty sure it was nice. I have me.raynes.laser, me.raynes.fs...
23:10	brehaut	it has pros and cons
23:10	brehaut	pros, you get that
23:10	Raynes	Like?
23:10	brehaut	cons, if ownership changes it can be weird
23:10	brehaut	depends how much you care about that i guess
23:11	brehaut	i think if there was a single great solution, everyone would have agreed by now
23:11	Raynes	I'd just change the namespace if I cared.
23:11	Raynes	Yeah, but what else would I do with laser?
23:11	Raynes	laser.lightsaber.htmlstuff?
23:12	brehaut	or just laser.html?
23:12	brehaut	i dunno, im crap at naming
23:12	Raynes	I've had people give me crap over two segment namespaces.
23:12	Raynes	Not unique enough for some people.
23:12	tomoj	well "laser" is not unique
23:12	tomoj	..enough for me
23:12	tomoj	but datomic.api seems fine
23:12	tomoj	as an example
23:12	Raynes	If me.raynes.laser isn't good enough, I give up on naming anything ever.
23:13	tomoj	yeah. me.raynes.laser is fine afaic
23:13	craigbro	Raynes: obvious answer here is, can the person who gave you shit about the namespace able to best you in hand to hand combat
23:13	Raynes	cemerick is pretty skinny.
23:13	tomoj	but I think (hop?) as long as you have a unique first segment, dropping RDN in the ns is OK
23:13	tomoj	I still use RDN in the group
23:14	tomoj	s/hop/hope/
23:14	craigbro	i think the com.something.foobar naming is too verbose
23:14	brehaut	tomoj, Raynes im pretty certain everyone has different criteria they want everyone elses naming scheme to adhere to, thus everyone bitches
23:15	Raynes	I didn't used to be a fan of it either,
23:15	Raynes	still not really.
23:15	Raynes	I was under the impression that people would be unable to complain about this particular naming scheme.
23:15	craigbro	seems like an advertising trick to me
23:15	Raynes	I might as well go back to foo.core now.
23:15	brehaut	Raynes: you must be new
23:15	tomoj	datomic pretty much makes you have to fully qualify in some places, so I abandoned RDN in ns's :(
23:16	craigbro	tomoj: that annoying difference between a unqualified symbol and a qualified one?
23:17	tomoj	craigbro: just that :com.loku.deezy/maybe is so much worse than :deezy/maybe
23:17	tomoj	for example
23:17	tomoj	hmm, though 'deezy.api/maybe is not THAT much worse than 'com.loku.deezy/maybe
23:17	tomoj	but it seems like noise
23:18	callenbot	com.loku.deezy/maybe is just a way of telling the world they're java scum and to be avoided at all costs.
23:18	TimMc	callenbot: Shush.
23:19	TimMc	You're just a bot, what do you know?
23:19	callen	TimMc: leave the digital pet alone
23:19	tomoj	..you mean people who use RDN are java scum?
23:20	TimMc	I use RDN, but I own timmc.org, which I feel is short enough.
23:20	TimMc	Anyway, what's the point of :as if you don't use it, anyhow?
23:21	tomoj	:as makes it bearable, but datomic makes it hard not to fully-qualify some places. and no :as in edn
23:22	callenbot	alright alright, lets have a contributions context
23:22	callenbot	I've got 3,104 contributions for the past year on github.
23:22	callenbot	Raynes: y tu?
23:23	brehaut	its not the number of contributes you've made, but what you do with them that counts
23:24	callenbot	brehaut: I get paid by the KLOC.
23:25	callenbot	brehaut: unsurprisingly, all my code is asm generated by m4.
23:26	brehaut	if i were paid by line of assembler generated, i'd stick with the JVM
23:27	callenbot	brehaut: I can't hear you over the SPEEEEEED
23:28	Raynes	callenbot: 1242.
23:28	Raynes	Er, 1424.
23:29	callenbot	Raynes: http://i.imgur.com/Gkh1BIQ.png
23:29	callenbot	Raynes: however, I'm willing to concede that you win in terms of open source contributions by a mile.
23:31	Raynes	Every single thing I've done this year is open source, work included.
23:31	callenbot	Raynes: we can't all be hippies.
23:31	callenbot	Raynes: grumble mumble startups mumble YC mumble retire by 30 grumble grumble
23:33	callenbot	Raynes: your ears have homework: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfgMZH7PSy4
23:35	brehaut	that song is 90% pingpong delay
23:35	callenbot	brehaut: your mother is a member of the joy division at a racquetball training camp.
23:36	callenbot	brehaut: and you didn't hear the proper part of the song, there's a build-up.
23:36	brehaut	next time, try not to lead with the 'your mother'
23:37	Sgeo	Help
23:38	Sgeo	Potential employer asked for code for a project listed on my resume
23:38	amalloy	brehaut: "is a member the joy division at a racquetball training camp your mother"? doesn't work out as well
23:38	Sgeo	I sent it, but it's among the less pleasant code I've written
23:38	brehaut	amalloy: lol
23:38	Sgeo	I did mention a project for which I wrote cleaner code and isn't on my resume
23:38	Sgeo	Hopefully they ask to see that code
23:38	TimMc	Sgeo: Send along a critique of your own code, maybe?
23:39	Sgeo	I did mention things in the email I disliked about the code
23:39	Sgeo	Well, in general terms
23:39	Sgeo	(It's a bit repetitive, use of if 0 to comment out code that was used for debugging, etc)
23:42	dnolen	hiredman: LOGIC-109, hrm I cannot reproduce that on master.
23:48	cakehero	lawlz: http://cl.ly/image/0R3K3x391N0x
23:49	Raynes	cakehero: Some of the problems on 4clojure are really stupid.
23:49	cakehero	Well, it's not stupid - my answer is stupid
23:49	callenbot	Raynes: did you listen to the song?
23:49	Raynes	It's pretty stupid.
23:49	cakehero	heh
23:49	Raynes	callenbot: I didn't even click on it.
23:49	Raynes	callenbot: Give me rdio links, dude.
23:49	cakehero	It's nice to have a list of clojure problems to go through
23:49	Raynes	Get with the program, callenbot.
23:49	callenbot	dafuq.
23:50	Raynes	callenbot: Listening now.
23:50	cakehero	considering it's like the 30th line of clojure i've written
23:50	Raynes	cakehero: Don't get me wrong, 4clojure is great. I'm a developer of it.
23:50	dnolen	hiredman: actually I think I see what's going on - please try master when you get a chance.
23:50	callenbot	Raynes: http://www.rdio.com/artist/Collapse_Under_The_Empire/album/Crawling/track/Crawling/ if you still want the Rdio.
23:50	Raynes	amalloy did all the stupid parts.
23:51	callenbot	Raynes: which are?
23:51	Raynes	callenbot: You're a good person for going over there and getting that there link for me. I'm impressed.
23:51	cakehero	Raynes excellent, I'll blame him
23:51	callenbot	Raynes: I'm hell-bent on exposing you to post-rock.
23:52	callenbot	technomancy: Mega Man 2, best soundtrack ever.
23:52	Raynes	You're just grumpy in general.
23:52	Raynes	What's megaman?
23:52	technomancy	...
23:52	Raynes	Hahahaha, kidding, kidding.
23:52	Raynes	I'm not that young.
23:53	warz	lol
23:53	warz	but seriously
23:53	callenbot	oh dammit. I thought for sure I'd have more commits than technomancy.
23:53	Raynes	I grew up with SNES.
23:53	warz	you do know what megaman is
23:53	warz	dont you
23:53	callenbot	technomancy: does heroku host their git on github?
23:53	Raynes	warz: Yes.
23:53	callenbot	er, vice versa.
23:53	technomancy	callenbot: with external mirrors, yeah
23:53	warz	man SNES was right before all of the really good games on NES
23:53	callenbot	technomancy: http://i.imgur.com/Gkh1BIQ.png duel me.
23:53	technomancy	whoa protomen sell FLACs along with MP3. <3
23:54	Raynes	warz: I also have emulators.
23:54	Raynes	Oh wait, I guess that's illegal.
23:54	craigbro	callenbot: wipeout, best soundtrack ever
23:54	warz	psh, not even the same
23:54	Raynes	My friend who isn't me has emulators.
23:54	callenbot	craigbro: Wipeout is good but there's too much eurotrash.
23:54	Raynes	warz: I've considered making an snes or nes controller interface with my 'puter for them.
23:55	craigbro	callenbot: haha, too much sasha eh?
23:55	technomancy	callenbot: 2066; most of my work at heroku is maintenance
23:55	craigbro	callenbot: it's burned into my head because of the zen state wipeout induced when racing
23:55	callenbot	craigbro: holds index finger and thumb together very closely just a liiiiiil bit.
23:55	warz	Raynes, like a USB controller? My friend has one it works well.
23:55	callenbot	technomancy: dammit!
23:55	Raynes	warz: Yes, an snes-shaped usb controller.
23:55	callenbot	technomancy: help me find somebody with more than me. It must exist!
23:56	technomancy	callenbot: I beat your longest streak though; 21
23:56	callenbot	technomancy: solid.
23:56	warz	Raynes, actually the best is really just the gamecube controllers. those things kick ass.
23:56	warz	for any thing
23:56	warz	they have USB versions
23:57	warz	i tried blogging about my experiences with clojure as a newb, but i bet it makes no sense, heh
23:58	warz	i tried to make it make sense, anyways
23:59	warz	i use blogging as my way of teaching others because i feel liek i learn a ton when i have to explain it to somebody else