#clojure – 2013-01-26

2013-01-26

01:24	warz	hrm, how do you import an AOT compiled class in seperate clj file? (gen-class)
01:24	warz	would i import it like a java class?
01:26	warz	i might just need to go with java for this stuff, haha. i was going to try to be cool and use clojure.
02:41	tenpaiyomi	Quick question…just learning, so it's a bit of a newbish question, but I am trying to do an if-else statement, and I understand that it needs to be setup in a scenario like (if cond true_result false_result), but I'm not entirely sure how I would set it up in a scenario that my either of my true or false needs to be more than a single action. Like, say I'm wanting to perform an action on 2 different variables, each on a separate lin
02:41	tenpaiyomi	I've tried wrapping them in parenthesis, but that causes an error.
02:45	amalloy	tenpaiyomi: (do x y). but since most things in clojure are immutable, that's useful/necessary less often than you think so far
02:46	tenpaiyomi	amalloy: Thanks, I actually figured the do statement out, my only problem now is my get is returning nil, even though I verified that the value I am trying to get exists in my vector...
02:55	wei_	how do you build a cljs plugin for release to clojars?
02:55	wei_	e.g. I'm trying to push my fork of fetch, https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch, but I'm not sure how to compile the jar.
02:57	Frozenlock	The voices of Cljs are impenetrable "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'xk' of undefined"
03:02	ivan	that usually means a property got renamed that you did not want renamed
03:02	ivan	you need externs for third-party libs. you probably already know this.
03:02	Frozenlock	Well yeah... but which one...
03:02	ivan	heh
03:03	Frozenlock	Yes, done... perhaps it was not taken while compiling...
03:03	Phonatacid	Hi. I'm trying to implement "augmented" agents and I'd like to have some advices about restructuring the args I use for creating them. Basically I'd like to add, say, 3 keyed arguments, provide default values for them, check for the presence of one of them (the preconditionnal way), then place all of them in the agent meta-map.
03:03	Phonatacid	Basically my function's prototype would look like
03:03	Phonatacid	(super-agent [state :myarg1 myval1 [:myarg2 myval2 :myarg3 myval3] & agentargs].
03:03	Phonatacid	How can I achieve this ? (sorry for the spam)
03:25	wei_	suddenly getting a lot of these errors: WARNING: Use of undeclared Var jayq.core/clj->js at line 75 file:/Users/wei/.m2/repository/jayq/jayq/2.0.0/jayq-2.0.0.jar!/jayq/core.cljs.
03:26	wei_	using jayq 2.0.0 and lein-cljsbuild 0.3.0 (most recent everything, I think)
03:26	wei_	how do you see what version of clojurescript you're using?
04:36	rl	I'm trying to write a HTML template system. Is it possible to set a namespace in a paticular function to avoid naming collisions?
04:38	rl	My idea is to produce a list of expressions, where each expression should evalulate to a string
04:39	rl	but I want to disallow "global variable" access
04:43	magnars	I have a map, and I want to "map over it" to create another map with the same keys, but with all the values transformed by a function ... I'd wager there's some nice built in function to do just that?
04:43	tomoj	:D
04:45	tomoj	there's no nice built in function
04:47	magnars	reduce it is, then - thanks!
04:47	tomoj	people usually do stuff like (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])) I think
04:48	magnars	look at that - not too shabby. Thanks!
04:48	tomoj	reducers could someday do it
04:59	rl	hm so in clojure is there a way to not allow access to symbols that are not defined in a function?
05:04	rl	i guess i can do some hack to real the template in a file, and in the documentation say to access variables for the template use (:key vars) or something....kind of ugly though =/
05:05	rl	I still don't like the fact global variables can still be accessed <_<
05:06	amalloy	it's basically impossible to do anything without referring to globals
05:06	Sgeo	amalloy, Newspeak?
05:06	Sgeo	Well, at least, if the full Newspeak system was working properly
05:24	zby_home	(seq (.split #"," "one,two,three"))
05:24	zby_home	is there an eval bot here?
05:25	tomoj	&(seq (.split #"," "one,two,three"))
05:25	lazybot	⇒ ("one" "two" "three")
05:25	zby_home	thanks
05:26	zby_home	at my interpreter it fails with: Exception Ambiguous match for ",\" \"one,two,three\"))" by #<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@6a9cce0f>
05:26	zby_home	is that a known feature?
05:30	tomoj	I think there's something wrong with your interpreter
05:51	cemerick	zby_home: are you squared away now?
05:53	zby_home	cemerick - more or less
05:54	zby_home	I found that the problem was with the session wrapper
05:54	cemerick	how so?
05:55	zby_home	https://groups.google.com/d/topic/ring-clojure/0QslnWVSoNg/discussion
05:56	zby_home	maybe it is something obvious - but I thought that (dev app (wrap-session handler)) is the same as (defn app [request] ((wrap-session handler) request))
05:56	zby_home	it should be the same function
05:56	zby_home	but the second at each request sends a new session cookie
05:56	cemerick	yeah, that makes sense
05:57	cemerick	no other way for it to generate a constant key on a per-middleware-usage basis
05:58	cemerick	an implicit side effect :-P
05:58	zby_home	aha
05:58	zby_home	OK
05:59	zby_home	I think there was one more thing
06:00	zby_home	yeah: https://gist.github.com/4633508
06:01	zby_home	cemerick ^^^
06:03	cemerick	and you're sure you're using the specified code and getting that behaviour? That would happen if you're getting a different session key on every request, as you discovered separately.
06:03	zby_home	that's a different one
06:04	zby_home	the session key I eventually figured out how to workaround
06:04	zby_home	that is not use 'defn'
06:06	zby_home	I'll regenerate it here
06:06	zby_home	and check it again
06:08	cemerick	zby_home: it's exactly the same thing; you're using defn to define secured-app
06:08	zby_home	OK - I'll check it here - I think I fixed that part yesterday
06:16	santo`	Is it good for Clojure to have multiple platforms?
06:17	santo`	?
06:18	zby_home	cemerick - OK - so the last version that I save is this: http://nopaste.me/paste/7719855465103bb61f1a60
06:18	zby_home	and it still have one problem
06:18	zby_home	which is a 404 on the /admin page
06:18	zby_home	I have not yet really analyzed it
06:19	zby_home	but maybe it is something obvious
06:20	santo`	Can I run ClojureCLR on linux with mono?
06:22	santo`	Helllo?
06:22	ChongLi	santo`: hi
06:23	ChongLi	I believe it can run on mono
06:28	cemerick	zby_home: nice, Friend bug
06:29	cemerick	change the /admin branch to: (friend/authorize #{::admin} (do response-map-here))
06:29	cemerick	it's actually a bug/feature :-P
06:29	ejackson	:)
06:30	zby_home	response-map-here - literally or use my map there?
06:30	cemerick	the latter
06:31	cemerick	I enhanced authorize a while back to accept an (optional) second map argument, that is merged into the unauthorized error stone if present.
06:31	zby_home	worked :)
06:32	cemerick	Perhaps a poor mimicry of the maps used for pre/postconditions in clojure fns.
06:32	zby_home	sorry - but that does not ring any bell for me
06:32	zby_home	I started learning clojure just a week ago
06:32	cemerick	don't worry about it :-)
06:32	cemerick	Thanks for the report
06:32	zby_home	:)
06:33	zby_home	do you plan to add an example to the code?
06:33	zby_home	I mean something that people like me could just copy
06:33	zby_home	and run
06:33	zby_home	this would be very useful
06:34	zby_home	I did not know how to run the example from tests
06:34	cemerick	zby_home: working on it: https://friend-demo.herokuapp.com/
06:34	zby_home	great!
06:34	zby_home	OK - thanks for your help
06:34	cemerick	thanks for your patience :-)
06:47	augustl	anyone got some suggestions for getting started using ZeroMQ from Clojure?
07:24	cemerick	zby_home: here's an issue you can track for that bug: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/issues/46
08:28	zeussphinx	?
08:49	Thallasios_Xelon	hello :))
08:49	Thallasios_Xelon	anyone using counterclockwise?
08:50	Thallasios_Xelon	is there a way to run again without a new repl window?
08:50	Thallasios_Xelon	i mean when i press run,to update the last on
09:17	rodnaph	core.logic - i'm trying to write a relation to assert a list contains unique values, but am completely stumped - can anyone help?
09:21	borkdude	does someone here has an org-mode/jekyll basic skeleton which I could use?
09:42	xumingmi`	anyone know Rich's email address? I have sent him the Clojure CA, want to send him an email to inform him
09:48	marcellus123	i want to use a jquery plugin that basically requires setting a bunch of callback methods on an object. is there a smooth way to handle this in clojurescript? Would it be horrible to just, in JS, make an object that just fires an event on each callback and then deal with them in cljs?
09:50	Thallasios_Xelon	<Thallasios_Xelon> anyone using counterclockwise?
09:50	Thallasios_Xelon	<Thallasios_Xelon> is there a way to run again without a new repl window?
10:11	Thallasios_Xelon	there is an update for counterclockwise
10:11	Thallasios_Xelon	its very usefull
10:17	borkdude	Thallasios_Xelon what kind of update
10:22	hyPiRion	xumingmi`: You'll automatically pop up under http://clojure.org/contributing when it's been received
10:33	Frozenlock	Could anyone take a look at this externs.js file? The advanced compilation munge names it should not and I'm wondering if it's because I did something wrong in this file https://github.com/Frozenlock/envision-cljs/tree/master/src-cljs/externs .
11:09	tazle	should (line-seq (java.io.BufferedReader. in)) terminate at some point?
11:10	progo	not if the EOF isn't given
11:11	progo	consider how 'cat', 'wc' etc work.
11:11	tazle	well, there should be an EOF with <-redirection
11:12	progo	Yes, unless it's a pipe
11:12	tazle	it's a file, and cat terminates but doseq on the above doesn't - weird
11:17	Thallasios_Xelon	is there a way to find the line of the error i know (pst)
11:23	jeremyheiler	tazle: is this essentially what you are doing? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8987
11:25	tazle	jeremyheiler: https://gist.github.com/4643117 is what I'm doing
11:25	tazle	and then lein run -m log4j-parser.cat < ../snippet
11:30	jeremyheiler	try: lein trampoline run -m log4j-parser.cat < ../snippet
11:30	tazle	then it terminates
11:31	dan	I'm new to clojure, and struggling to construct a map of of arithmetic inverses. This works as expected: (def inverse {:+ - :- +}), but this fails with an invalid token exception: (def inverse {:+ - :- + :/ *}). Is there some some kind of escape character I can use to create this map?
11:31	ChongLi	dan: yes
11:31	ChongLi	you can quote those symbols
11:31	jeremyheiler	tazle: what's happening here (i think) is that standard in with out trampoline is being directed to lein, not your code.
11:32	uvtc	dan: use '+ and '- (instead of bare + and -)
11:32	ChongLi	(def inverse {'+ '- '- '+ '/ '* '* '/})
11:32	dan	Ah, thanks to you both. That seems so obvious now. =)
11:32	tazle	jeremyheiler: and leiningen is then passing it on, and not closing things, it seems
11:32	ChongLi	&({'+ '- '- '+ '/ '* '* '/} '+)
11:32	lazybot	⇒ -
11:33	jeremyheiler	tazle, you'll normally file bugs here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues
11:34	jeremyheiler	but i dont' think this is a bug
11:34	tazle	how is it not a bug to not close the stdin of a program you run if you aren't going to write to it anymore?
11:35	progo	yes. An eof's an eof.
11:37	jeremyheiler	using trampoline allows you to run your project in its own jvm. if eof is never given to the stream with out trampoline, then why should it terminate?
11:38	progo	but the EOF is given in that case
11:54	augustl	anyone here ever used zeromq from clojure? Trying to figure out how to make leiningen use the .jar I compiled from the jzmq git repo.
11:58	no7hing	you could always install it in your local maven repo
11:58	augustl	no7hing: I tried, but leiningen doesn't find it for some reason
11:58	augustl	I get an early adopter vibe from trying to use ZeroMQ from the JVM :)
11:59	a\|i	anyone using SumblimeREPL here?
11:59	no7hing	@augustl you're not the only one getting burned by zmq + jvm
11:59	Foxboron	a\|i: yes
12:00	a\|i	Foxboron: what is that damn ^,,l key shortcut in osx for evaluating a line?
12:00	Foxboron	a\|i: when i was on Windows the keys where broke. So i am not sure if that also applies on OSX, i suggest you go into the keymap files for sublimeRepl and check the OSX keymap
12:01	a\|i	Foxboron: it's this: { "keys": ["ctrl+,", "l"], "command": "repl_transfer_current", "args": {"scope": "lines"}} and it never works.
12:01	a\|i	how do people work with repl + sublime text if that shortcut doesn't work?
12:01	Foxboron	a\|i: you change the key and see if it works.
12:02	Foxboron	a\|i: try use "cmd" instead of "ctrl"
12:02	a\|i	Foxboron: cmd+, is a classic for preferences in mac.
12:02	a\|i	is it possible to connect repl with the lein project once, and have it auto reloaded when the file saves?
12:03	Foxboron	a\|i: ummm....nope
12:04	a\|i	what's the state of light table ide?
12:04	a\|i	I'm just looking for a sane ide other than emacs+smile.
12:04	Frozenlock	emacs+nrepl?
12:05	a\|i	Frozenlock: how is that better?
12:05	Foxboron	a\|i: tried emacs and nrepl?
12:05	Frozenlock	Oh, better...
12:05	Foxboron	its just. better
12:05	Foxboron	more awsomesausce packed into one thing
12:06	Frozenlock	Foxboron: I still consider nrepl.el ~= slime
12:06	a\|i	Foxboron: trying to get some newbies into clojure, they are not of emacs/vim type. clojure itself is enough barrier, asking them to learn emacs makes it just more difficult to market clojure to them.
12:07	jeremyheiler	a\|i, perhaps have them use eclipse with counterclockwise?
12:07	Foxboron	a\|i: i see. I believe a texteditor + repl is the best option. If you solve the keymap issue with sublimeREPL it should be easy
12:07	a\|i	jeremyheiler: ccw also has broken windows here and there.
12:07	a\|i	it looks like there is no close to official quality ide for clojure outside of emacs.
12:08	Foxboron	a\|i: sad truth
12:08	a\|i	even scala came to the conclusion that they have to support an ide officially.
12:09	Frozenlock	lets make clojure officially support emacs :)
12:09	craigbro	indeed
12:10	craigbro	a\|i you don't want "auto reload when saved"
12:10	a\|i	Frozenlock: emacs is not for everyone. that'd be amistake.
12:10	craigbro	a\|i: you compile teh file, it will save
12:10	craigbro	C-c C-l will prompt to save if it hasn't been, or you just eval specific expressions. Clojure is not quite so "file" based.
12:10	craigbro	C-c C-k that is, sorry
12:11	Frozenlock	a\|i: There's no IDE for everyone...
12:11	Frozenlock	Unless you count our dear friend Notepad.exe. Ah, notepad.
12:12	Foxboron	a\|i: i debugged the keymap for you
12:12	Foxboron	found the error
12:12	Foxboron	(in sublime)
12:12	augustl	hmm, "NoClassDefFoundError Could not initialize class org.zeromq.ZMQ java.lang.Class.forName0 (Class.java:-2)", this is fun..
12:12	a\|i	Foxboron: I think they fixed it that bug: https://github.com/wuub/SublimeREPL/pull/116
12:14	rationalrevolt	Does a var need to be tagged dynamic in order to bind it using binding? In the repl (binding [a 20] (println a)) works even if a was not declared using the dynamic metadata
12:14	Foxboron	a\|i: if you search for repl_transfer_current in the keymap file, and change the keybind from ["ctrl+","l"] too ["ctrl+l"] it works without a hazzel atleast
12:14	Foxboron	a\|i: if you also decide too use Sublime, i might have 2 helpfull plugins for Sublime.
12:15	a\|i	Foxboron: I installed your clojure docs, but didn't figourout how to use it.
12:16	Foxboron	a\|i: hah. ctrl+shift+p, search for "clj" and you will find it.
12:16	Foxboron	a\|i: i believe the keymap files might be a bit fucked on several systems (my fault for not correcting that)
12:17	a\|i	Foxboron: I meant how to _use_ the plugin. how do you get the docs for something?
12:18	augustl	how do I modify java.library.path without hardcoding the path into my project.clj?
12:18	Foxboron	a\|i: ctrl+shift+p, find "clj-docs", you will see a search bar in the bottom. Type... "hash-map" as an example. Then you wait 2 sec and you should see the menu
12:18	Foxboron	a\|i: i might go about making a cache system so you can search the docs offline also.
12:19	a\|i	Foxboron: is it possible to get the docs for a selection?
12:19	Foxboron	a\|i: you mean, selecting a keyword?
12:19	a\|i	Foxboron: eg, if I select 'map', is there a shortcut to bring up the doc for map?
12:20	a\|i	Foxboron: or better, something like light table?
12:20	Foxboron	a\|i: i was actually going to add a light table'ish system. But i havent coded up everything yet.
12:21	Foxboron	a\|i: the shortcut is "supre+shift+c"
12:21	Foxboron	you can place your cursor beside the item, or select it.
12:21	augustl	seems my only option is to set :native-path to "my-jni" or whatever, and put my compiled stuff there, rather than specifying to leiningen where it actually resides on my system
12:22	technomancy	augustl: :native-path is an output path; it's where lein extracts native components of dependencies
12:22	Foxboron	a\|i: also, if you have any suggestions for the plugin in general, just throw me a PM.
12:23	technomancy	augustl: there's no setting for java.library.path except :jvm-opts currently
12:23	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/906
12:23	augustl	technomancy: hmm, according to http://www.paullegato.com/blog/jni-leiningen-native-path/ setting :native-path also sets java.library.path
12:23	a\|i	Foxboron: great, thanks.
12:23	augustl	technomancy: I see. I currently have my native stuff in /Users/augustl/local/zmq, do I have to hardcode that specific path into project.clj?
12:23	Foxboron	a\|i: i have not added threading, so a little freeze when you search is normal. (it's bad i know)
12:24	technomancy	augustl: that's intended for managed native components, not manually installed stuff
12:25	augustl	technomancy: hmm, not following. ~/local/zmq is the path to the native libs for zmq that the jzmq project loads via jni
12:27	technomancy	augustl: I mean the :native-path setting is intended as a way to tell Leiningen "if you find any native components in the dependencies, extract them to the filesystem here"
12:28	technomancy	augustl: it's not intended for "oh by the way, I have some native code that I downloaded myself; here it is"
12:28	technomancy	for the latter, currently :jvm-opts is the only way to do it, but we should add better support for it; see the issue link above
12:29	augustl	technomancy: I see, thanks
12:31	augustl	both :jvm-opts and JVM_OPTS in env worked fine
12:44	rationalrevolt	Hi room, can someone point me to why I am able to use binding with vars that were not declared dynamic?
12:44	rationalrevolt	I'm supposed to be getting an exception, but i don't
12:45	rationalrevolt	i'm trying this in the repl
12:45	rationalrevolt	(def a 10) followed by (binding [a 20] (println a)) - this shouldn't work because a wasn't declared with ^:dynamic
12:46	dnolen	rationalrevolt: doesn't work for me. What version of Clojure are you running?
12:47	rationalrevolt	hmm, 1.2.0 maybe thats why?
12:47	dnolen	rationalrevolt: yes
12:48	rationalrevolt	thanks, i dint realize
12:48	dnolen	rationalrevolt: 1.2.0 is pretty old - unless there's a good reason I would move to 1.4.0
12:49	rationalrevolt	right, i was playing with the example for compojure - din't realize the lein deps were configured with the old version
12:49	seangrove	Jesus, creating a custom component for goog.ui is insanely verbose
12:50	rationalrevolt	sorry enlive
12:50	dnolen	wow compojure is still on 1.2.1?
12:50	rationalrevolt	no, i corrected myself: for enlive
12:51	rationalrevolt	the templating library
12:51	seangrove	And it's not really clear how to do this in cljs
12:52	dnolen	seangrove: yeah, you need to write some macros for it not be a hassle. The UI components are done in a very classical OOP style if I recall.
12:53	seangrove	Damn, this is the last thing to do before release :P
12:53	seangrove	Well, I'll feel better once I've started I suppose
12:54	seangrove	dnolen: So it looks like I need to make a function, and then alter its prototype: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8990
12:55	seangrove	I'm struggling a bit to think of how to translate this to cljs
12:56	dnolen	seangrove: that's what deftype does - creates a function and alters the prototype
12:56	seangrove	Ah, hadn't come across deftype before
12:57	seangrove	Will look it up
12:57	dnolen	seangrove: all the data structures are written in terms of it - it's the "closest" thing to the host.
12:58	Frozenlock	Wait, so I didn't need "(set! (.-createDragElement (.-prototype new-dragger)) create-drag-element-fn)" :/
13:00	dnolen	Frozenlock: nope, you can plain object menthods to deftype's via Object
13:00	dnolen	(deftype Draggable [...] Object (createDragElement [this] ...)) etc
13:00	dnolen	"you can add plain object methods to deftype" I mean
13:01	tgoossens	I'm making a clojure implementation of the STRIPS planning algorithm. An operator is represnted by e map. I noticed that I make a LOT of copies during the algorithm. And also there are a lot of equality tests (comparing maps seems expensive to me).
13:01	tgoossens	I'm considering giving every operator an ID.
13:02	tgoossens	Or make it an atom. But since operators are values and hence will never change i think that is an unnecessesary addition of compexity
13:03	tgoossens	https://github.com/tgoossens/cljstrips/issues/2
13:03	tgoossens	a bit extra description:
13:04	tgoossens	there are several possible "links" in the strips algorithm. Establish link "operator X establishes a precondition of operator Y"
13:04	tgoossens	before: "operator X must come before operator Y"
13:04	tgoossens	in my first attempt
13:04	tgoossens	an before link was {:first operatorX :last operatorY}
13:04	Bodil	seangrove: If you're having to deal with JS OOP stuff, you might want to look at https://github.com/bodil/pylon
13:05	Bronsa	dnolen: in clojure that's not possible to do, but in clojurescript's datastructures implementation that's done extensively, do you think this means that deftypes should be able to specify methods not owned by any protocol/interface?
13:05	tgoossens	operatorX being effectively the operator value.
13:05	tgoossens	I'm fearing that this cannot be very efficient
13:05	tgoossens	So my question is. Any thoughts, concepts I should look into that might help me to solve my problem
13:06	tgoossens	or to better understand my problem
13:06	seangrove	Bodil: Oh, wow, this looks great for dealing with closure classes
13:06	augustl	technomancy: http://augustl.com/blog/2013/using_zeromq_from_clojure/ :)
13:06	seangrove	Does the :extends keyword come out as goog.base()?
13:06	dnolen	Bodil: nice!
13:06	Bodil	seangrove: Yeah, it's using goog.* stuff internally, so it shouldn't give you any trouble.
13:07	dnolen	Bodil: hmm, why doesn't it work w/ advanced compilation if you're leveraging it on Closure?
13:07	Bodil	seangrove: It uses goog.base() to extend, yes. :)
13:08	Bodil	dnolen: Wish I knew, but the compiler kept mangling my method names...
13:08	seangrove	Ah, but I need advanced compilation to deploy in production - you can't use that with pylon?
13:08	seangrove	Ah, just saw that, hah
13:08	Bodil	No :(
13:08	dnolen	Bronsa: probably. If I recall there's a few other things that deftype needs for real JVM CLJ-in-CLJ
13:09	dnolen	Bodil: hmm, so names get mangled w/in a project? Like code in the same project can't call code?
13:10	dnolen	Bodil: oh you use aset & aget, why not switch those to static access?
13:11	Bodil	dnolen: Should that matter? It seemed to compile down to the same thing anyway, iirc?
13:12	dnolen	Bodil: no it does not. aset -> foo["yucky_string"]
13:12	dnolen	set! -> f.nice_property
13:12	Frozenlock	!!!
13:12	Frozenlock	I've been trying to make advanced compilation work for hours! It might just be this!
13:12	Bodil	dnolen: Aha, interesting - I'll have a go and see if that helps.
13:13	dnolen	Bodil: if you change that, everything should work out nicely with advanced compilation
13:13	seangrove	That'd be awesome :)
13:13	pisketti	Perhaps a stupid question but is there any way to bind the last item of a coll using destructuring?
13:13	pisketti	In contrast to binding the first by something like [[x & xs] coll].
13:14	tgoossens	reverse?
13:14	tgoossens	[[x & xs] (reverse coll)]
13:15	tgoossens	,(let [[x & xs] (reverse [1 2 3]) x)
13:15	tgoossens	but i guess that's not exactly what you need
13:16	pisketti	thanks. I'd lose other bindigs but that's definitely a way to get the last
13:16	tgoossens	or
13:16	dnolen	pisketti: not possible
13:17	tgoossens	,(let [[x & xs] '(1 2 3) y (last xs)] y)
13:17	dnolen	tgoossens: it's pretty normal to need ids when programming in language designed around immutable values
13:17	tgoossens	dnolen: not much experience here :)
13:17	dnolen	tgoossens: just do it w/ ids
13:17	pisketti	dnolen: ok
13:18	Bodil	dnolen: Hmm, lein-noderepl doesn't work with the latest cljs release - what did you change? :)
13:18	dnolen	Bodil: hmm, there was a REPL related change to Rhino support
13:18	dnolen	Bodil: if you can do a git bisect that would be helpful.
13:19	Bodil	dnolen: Just reverted to Rhino for now, I'll try and figure it out later...
13:19	dnolen	Bodil: there needs to be a CLJS project test matrix ...
13:21	wei_	is there a way to use the clojure.math.numeric_tower library in clojurescript?
13:21	dnolen	Bodil: looking at pylons the one tricky bit is needing to set a local, I don't think that one bit can be done w/o js* unfortunately.
13:21	seangrove	Well, for browser-testing I know Sauce Labs has free testing for OSS projects
13:21	wei_	actually, I really just need a round fn
13:22	Bodil	dnolen: Where's that?
13:22	dnolen	line 15 in classes.cljs
13:22	dnolen	where you set properties in the ctor
13:22	wei_	js/Math.round
13:22	technomancy	wei_: the javascript runtime doesn't really support ... reasonable numerics
13:22	wei_	haha
13:22	technomancy	it's more like a numeric hovel
13:23	seangrove	wei_: Why not use js/Math.round?
13:23	seangrove	(def round (.-round js/Math)) (round 99.54)
13:23	wei_	just found out about that. thanks
13:23	dnolen	Bodil: actually, it can be done - looks like this-as allows it
13:23	seangrove	Ah, ok, heh
13:23	dnolen	Bodil: just tried (defn foo [x] (this-as this (set! (.-bar this) 1))), works
13:24	equalsdanny	Guys, does anybody know why does `lein run` takes up to 4 seconds to launch a simple project?
13:24	equalsdanny	I think I definitely miss something
13:24	Bodil	dnolen: Did you solve this already? :)
13:24	dnolen	equalsdanny: JVM start up time + compilation time.
13:24	dnolen	Bodil: I think that was fogus actually
13:25	equalsdanny	dnolen: is there any way to keep JVM up so that I can reduce the edit-compile-run cycle a bit?
13:25	craigbro	equalsdanny: don't edit comile run
13:25	craigbro	equalsdanny: use emacs+nrepl for intereactive developemnt
13:26	dnolen	equalsdanny: most people don't bother with lein run, they code interactively w/ a REPL
13:26	Bodil	dnolen: Problem is, I need to set a dynamic property...
13:26	dnolen	Bodil: which property?
13:27	craigbro	equalsdanny: basically, you load up your whole program, and then you edit little bits of it, and compile and load just those parts, and then you have the REPL where you type in code snippets to test them, or "run" your program
13:27	craigbro	equalsdanny: stop me if I'm being overly pedantic 8^)
13:27	Bodil	dnolen: A lot of them - I'm wrapping every method in a bind function...
13:28	dnolen	Bodil: hmm I don't see any cases where you setting a dynamic name ...
13:28	dnolen	Bodil: oh ... the bind list
13:28	Bodil	dnolen: Yeah, and likewise with the actual method definitions - like (aset prototype function-name function-value)
13:29	equalsdanny	craigbro: I will try to set that up. thx :)
13:30	dnolen	Bodil: ok, yeah - I thought you were trying to do something where you wouldn't need to use dynamic names like that. The bit about leverage Closure threw me off.
13:31	Bodil	dnolen: No, that's the problem right there - because js* only takes inline strings, I can't construct anything Closure Compiler would recognise.
13:31	tgoossens	dnolen: is it also normal that I have to pass to functions like "threatens?" the mapping of id to value. Or is it more a sign of a flaw in my design
13:32	dnolen	tgoossens: it's not strange to have to write functions around managing ids
13:34	dnolen	Bodil: hmm yeah ... sorry to mislead :( tho I don't really understand yet why making something that interops well w/ the Closure class stuff is diffcult.
13:35	technomancy	equalsdanny: you can also try export LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE=y lein trampoline run
13:35	technomancy	successive runs can skip the "outer" JVM
13:35	seangrove	What do I :require if I want to use goog.base, goog.inherits, goog.now, goog.addSingletonGetter? shudder
13:35	Bodil	dnolen: I think it needs to have the methods annotated as such, or something. Problem is, it mangles method invocations because it doesn't realise they're actually defined.
13:35	dnolen	tgoossens: the whole id thing seemed weird to me as well, eventually it sunk in, I also saw Ben Moseley talk about it in the context of Haskell at TechMesh so I'm pretty sure this how it must be done sometimes
13:35	dnolen	tgoossens: http://shaffner.us/cs/papers/tarpit.pdf
13:36	dnolen	is a great read
13:36	dnolen	Bodil: hmm ...
13:36	craigbro	hehe
13:37	craigbro	I shoudl check that out
13:37	dnolen	Bodil: back in the day I was against providing something to allow creation of Closure style classes - now I'm thinking it's not such a bad idea.
13:37	craigbro	the inspiration for FRP application in my project came during a nap on the futon in my old apartment, quite vivid
13:37	dnolen	Bodil: it's come up many times ...
13:38	seangrove	dnolen: At the very least for interop, not for building cljs systems on
13:38	dnolen	seangrove: yeah
13:38	Bodil	dnolen: It's a good idea for interop, though I hate the idea of putting classes in Cljs on general principle...
13:39	dnolen	Bodil: yes, for interop - it's kind of a glaring omissions considering we ship CLJS w/ Closure but then don't provide proper tools to use it :P
13:39	Bodil	dnolen: That's definitely a valid point :)
13:41	clojure-newb	cemerick: hi, I'm having a little trouble understanding what is happening with an NPE on the BCrypt.hashpw used by 'friend' when I substitute one user map for another…, I'm guessing its the structure of the hashed/encrypted item ?
13:43	dnolen	opened up a ticket for "genclass" for CLJS - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-463
13:44	Bodil	dnolen: Nice :)
13:47	zilti	How do I turn the contents of an InputStream into a byte array?
13:47	dnolen	Bodil: let me know about noderepl when you get a chance
13:47	Bodil	dnolen: Will do.
13:49	craigbro	zilti: byte arrays don't really exist in clojure
13:50	craigbro	zilti: seems more like a java question
13:52	clojure-newb	hey guys, sorry, should have opened the question out further… I've got two maps each with a :password key (bcrypted value) one is causing an NPE with friends 'bcrypt-credential-fn' function via 'BCrypt.hashpw' any ideas ?
13:53	clojure-newb	both passwords were hashed the same way
13:53	craigbro	zilti: you might actually find a useful solution here:
13:55	craigbro	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7250229/reading-a-binary-file-into-a-single-byte-array-in-java
13:55	craigbro	the solution depends on the input stream a bit
13:55	craigbro	clojure-newb: I would open up bcrypt-credential-fn and see what data it is passing to Bcrypt.hashpw - and then work backwards
13:55	clojure-newb	craigbro: thx, I'll give it a go
13:55	tgoossens	dnolen: thanks
13:55	craigbro	if I was in emacs I would jump to source
13:56	craigbro	toggle read-ony if needed
13:56	craigbro	and then add in some prints
13:56	tgoossens	dnolen: you are elready the second person who sends me out of the tarpit. Better take a look at it :p
13:56	craigbro	eval the defn and try again...
13:56	clojure-newb	craigbro: I'm an emacs newb too though I'm trying to get started with emacs live
13:56	ieure	zilti: I use Apache commons-io's IOUtils class for this kind of stuff. Works fine.
13:57	craigbro	clojure-newb: ah, ok, not fmailiar with that distribution exactly, but I imagine you are using nrepl to connect to a running clojure process?
13:57	ieure	zilti: This method is probably close to what you want: http://commons.apache.org/io/apidocs/org/apache/commons/io/IOUtils.html#toByteArray(java.net.URI)
13:57	clojure-newb	yes
13:57	zilti	ieure, craigbro : Thanks!
13:58	craigbro	clojure-newb: ok, first, try this: M-x help m
13:58	craigbro	aka, get mode help
13:58	clojure-newb	ok will do
13:58	craigbro	do that when you are inside a buffer with clojure source code
13:58	craigbro	it'll tell you all the keymappings available
13:58	craigbro	useful stuff
13:59	craigbro	If you do M-.
14:00	craigbro	it jumps to the definition of the function your cursor is on
14:00	clojure-newb	nice
14:00	Bodil	dnolen: Would the closure compiler actually care if a property access is foo.bar or foo["bar"] as long as "bar" is a string literal?
14:02	clojure-newb	craigbro: hmmm, I get .../TAGS is not a valid tags table.. but i'm not sure what that means
14:04	cemerick	dnolen: thanks for the commit; hope the ___repl_env thing wasn't too janky :-)
14:09	craigbro	clojure-newb: interesting, apparently you don't have clojure-mode or something
14:09	craigbro	clojure-newb: I don't know emacs live enough to help beyond that
14:10	clojure-newb	craigbro: no worries, I'll tinker with it,… sure I had it working before
14:16	clojure-newb	hmm, doing some debug the old fashioned way println of creds defined in 'credentials.clj' line 45 displaying : '{"me" {:username "me", :password "$2a$10$/K2EysmmQFNYpBgZ8XUkneIPPIshpSXeUD3Mug2dupO/rts/B5Fem", :roles #{:x.y/user}}}' gives me the NPE, anyone got any ideas ?
14:16	clojure-newb	sorry, this was using 'friend'
14:17	clojure-newb	its definitely the password value causing me problems, substituting it for one created in a map locally works
14:17	seangrove	Bodil: Couldn't you use protocols for some of the closure ui interop?
14:17	seangrove	The components have the same interface anyway
14:17	yedi	how do i know if paredit in emacs is active? (what does it actually do)
14:18	seangrove	yedi: If you type '(' then ')' automatically appears
14:18	seangrove	Same with [,{,"
14:18	daimrod	yedi: C-h v paredit-mode RET t means it's active; you can also look at the mode-line.
14:18	Bodil	seangrove: I don't know, I'm not doing Closure UI interop. :)
14:18	seangrove	And you can't delete a single paren (i.e. they can never be unbalanced)
14:18	seangrove	Bodil: Heh, ok, just wondering if I had missed something
14:19	cemerick	clojure-newb: can you paste some code / stacktrace anywhere?
14:19	seangrove	Haven't used protocols yet, feels like shaky ground to start on, but I'll give it a go
14:19	clojure-newb	cemerick: sure.. one moment
14:21	Bodil	seangrove: For my purposes at least (subclassing Ace and Backbone) protocols won't help.
14:21	seangrove	Bodil: Why's that?
14:21	seangrove	Still wrapping my heads around them a bit
14:22	Bodil	seangrove: Because they aren't subclasses, they're just a way to extend Cljs's idea of what a preexisting JS class/type/whatever can do.
14:23	seangrove	Sure, but I was thinking about defining a protocol, deftyping it, constructing on, and then manually going goog.inherits(x, y)
14:23	clojure-newb	cemerick: stack trace is at : https://www.refheap.com/paste/8992, preparing code sample now...
14:24	Bodil	seangrove: Yeah, that sounds like it might work.
14:26	clojure-newb	cemerick: code is at https://www.refheap.com/paste/8993
14:26	borkdude	maybe some people in here know this? org-mode seems a bit quiet: I am translating some org-mode to html for a blog I'm trying to setup. Why does this [[/img/foo.jpg]] gets translated to <img src="file://img/foo.jpg"/> and if I do [[./img/foo.jpg]] the file is ommitted? it should be ommitted always in my case
14:27	clojure-newb	cemerick: when I replace users with users-new I get the NPE though the password is the same one at creation time, crypted in the same way
14:28	Frozenlock	Arg! I'm trying to use an external js library with advanced compilation. I've made my externs file. The compiler won't munge the main name "some-library", but everything under it will be... "some-library.xd.ax". Sound familiar?
14:29	seangrove	borkdude: Presumably the /../ looks like a filesystem path
14:30	skelternet	borkdude: is the leading slash a problem?
14:30	borkdude	skelternet yes
14:30	seangrove	I'd just look at the code for it
14:30	skelternet	borkdude: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
14:30	skelternet	I mean in the image tag. Maybe it should be [[./img/foo.jpg]]
14:31	cemerick	clojure-newb: users-new needs to return the credentials map (i.e. the value of (users "me@me.com)). You're creating and returning the full map of identities.
14:31	skelternet	or [[img/foo.jpg]]
14:31	borkdude	skelternet so no absolute paths huh
14:31	borkdude	skelternet no, it should be /img in my case, because the images are not on the same level as the html (org originally)
14:32	clojure-newb	cemerick: doh! thanks for your help
14:32	dnolen	Bodil: it does care
14:33	dnolen	cemerick: np
14:34	skelternet	borkdude: the file /img/foo.jpg actually exists?
14:34	yedi	has anyone gotten nrepl.el to work with emacs prelude
14:36	borkdude	skelternet yes, http://localhost:4000/img/test.jpg returns the picture
14:37	skelternet	borkdude and I presume file:///img/test.jpg would also work through the file system
14:37	borkdude	skelternet no, the web server uses a specific dir as root dir
14:38	borkdude	skelternet it's just a jekyll website btw
14:38	skelternet	borkdude: hmm. odd. I suspect org-mode may do that for absolute paths. I'm not positive, though.
14:38	borkdude	skelternet yes, the docs say: no absolute path
14:39	skelternet	borkdude: I've been torn between writing my own using Dexy or looking at Jekyl. How has your experience with jekyl been?
14:39	borkdude	skelternet probably this guy here uses literal html for his images for this reason http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-jekyll.html
14:41	borkdude	skelternet to be honest, I didn't use jekyll that much, just copied someones repo from github and adapted some things, playing around
14:41	borkdude	skelternet I'm just looking for a way to use org-mode to set up a blog and this looked promising
14:44	skelternet	I was involved in something like 10-15 projects at my old job and org-mode was the only way to maintain sanity.
14:45	skelternet	I used to generate meeting notes from org-mode and run my task lists in it.
14:46	skelternet	Kept the files in version control.
14:46	skelternet	I'm down to 1 project now so I don't use it as much. Was useful, though.
14:47	skelternet	Meeting agendas and follow up notes exported to PDF and HTML and made available to the team.
14:47	borkdude	of course I can always use a relative path like this ../../../img/test.jpg
14:48	borkdude	but that's kind of ugly, I want the org-files not having to know about the structure of the jekyll site
14:48	skelternet	borkdude: yeah, but…sematically…is ../../.. meaningful? Wish we could define a variable root higher up in the org doc
14:49	skelternet	borkdude: would the web address be appropriate? [[http://myblog/images/foo.jpg]] ?
14:50	borkdude	skelternet could do that, but what if I change domains, etc.. nah
14:50	skelternet	borkdude: nod
14:50	skelternet	Family just arrived back home. I'm off to be dad. good luck.
14:51	Frozenlock	Does the google compiler keep a table of the original names? Say I could look "sv" and see that it was "my-awesome-function" elsewhere.
14:57	ivan	Frozenlock: I think you can make it generate a property renaming map
14:58	Frozenlock	ivan: thanks - however I just found a solution to my problem. Include the externs.js file directly in my project, instead of my underlying jar library.
14:58	ivan	why do you expect it to munge the main name SomeLibrary?
14:58	ivan	okay
14:58	Frozenlock	I expect it to NOT munge it :p
14:59	Frozenlock	I'll have to see with emezeske why the externs.js included in jar is not used...
15:01	ivaraasen	hm, Prismatic's Flop looks interesting
15:02	wilfredh	I want to (use foo) and catch when it doesn't work, but FileNotFoundException isn't in scope.
15:02	wilfredh	any suggestions where I can import it from?
15:04	wilfredh	ah, java.io.FileNotFoundException
15:04	wilfredh	that'll teach me for learning Clojure without knowing much Java :)
15:06	yedi	where would I be adding these lines? https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el#configuration
15:06	yedi	I should be putting it in nrepl.el right?
15:07	ivan	yedi: in your .emacs.d/init.el
15:08	yedi	ivan: ty
15:09	dabd	I'd like to sort a list of cards by their ranks according to the normal rank order in a deck of cards. I can't figure why this doesn't work https://gist.github.com/4644325
15:10	dabd	i get (sort-by-rank-order '("KTo" "KQo" "AJo" "AQo" "AKo"))
15:10	dabd	("AKo" "AQo" "KQo" "AJo" "KTo")
15:10	dabd	Any tips please?
15:10	Seba51	I am playing with clutch a couchdb client libray and saw things like "WARNING: assoc! already refers to: #'clojure.core/assoc! in namespace". My guess is, that libraries should not names as clojure methods. Is this correct?
15:12	tomoj	dabd: hard to tell what you're really trying to do. I mean I understand rank order, but what's all the notation? anyway [(first h) (second h)] in your cond clause looks suspicious. a vector is always logically true
15:12	ivan	Seba51: you can, if you exclude from clojure.core with a (:refer-clojure :exclude [assoc!])
15:12	ivan	(haven't tried it though)
15:12	tomoj	oh, nevermind
15:12	ivan	that is, in your (ns
15:12	tomoj	I misread it, damn you cond
15:13	Seba51	@Ivan thanks for the tip. Is this OK for a library to reuse the names. I am just wondering if the library is badly designed.
15:13	dabd	AKo = Ace King off suit KQs = King Queen suited
15:14	borkdude	I solved my problem by writing a hook fn for org-publish-before-export-hook which replaces $SITEPATH$.. kind of templating in an org-file - is this something that could be done in an easier way?
15:14	S11001001	Seba51: yes, it's OK
15:14	dabd	tomoj: Is this you don't understand?
15:14	S11001001	Seba51: It means you aren't supposed to just (:use the-lib), you're supposed to :require :as, or :use :only
15:15	S11001001	ivan, Seba51: I missed part of conversation, sorry for repeat
15:16	Seba51	Thanks for the feedback. I just found this as well "Use good names, and don't be afraid to collide with names in other namespaces. That's what the flexible namespace support is there for." in http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
15:17	tomoj	wow, I was going to say your comparator should return -1, 0, or 1 instead of booleans
15:18	tomoj	I used (sort > coll) before but didn't think about it
15:19	tomoj	&(= (sort compare [1 2 3]) (sort < [1 2 3]))
15:19	lazybot	⇒ true
15:21	seangrove	hrm
15:21	seangrove	In cljs, when I create a (deftype ...) and give it some functions, and then instantiate that type, where are the functions? How can I call them from javascript-land?
15:21	yedi	what does load file mean in nrepl? I'd assume it'd mean to load all of the clojure code of a file so that the repl has access to all the functions/variables
15:22	S11001001	yedi: yes, but "repl has access" probably doesn't mean what you think
15:22	yedi	load into memory
15:22	tomoj	&(java.util.Collections/min [3 2 1] (comparator <))
15:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:23	tomoj	&(java.util.Collections/min [3 2 1] <)
15:23	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:23	tomoj	(def comparator identity)
15:23	S11001001	yedi: yes, it fits that
15:23	tomoj	except for (comparator a-map) or some crazy shit
15:23	yedi	in my emacs setup, running C-c C-l to load my file doesn't seem to work
15:23	S11001001	yedi: what does "doesn't seem to work" mean?
15:23	ivaraasen	so, I just wrote my first macro, guys.
15:23	yedi	and I don't want to have to evaluate every form in the file by hand
15:23	seangrove	Doesn't seem to be in the namespace...
15:24	ivaraasen	it's ugly as hell, but it will do
15:24	yedi	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: rhyme-scheme in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
15:24	S11001001	yedi: then by "repl has access" you don't mean anything about memory, you mean the environment of the repl
15:24	seangrove	Ah, on the object iself
15:24	S11001001	yedi: the repl starts in ns user
15:24	S11001001	yedi: your code is in some other ns, whatever you declared it as
15:25	S11001001	yedi: loading a file only loads it, it doesn't mess with the ns your repl is in
15:25	S11001001	yedi: you can use nrepl-set-ns when in a file to switch your repl to the file's ns
15:25	yedi	ah, i see
15:25	Frozenlock	ivaraasen: Was it _really_ necessary?
15:25	S11001001	yedi: or you can type out the commands in the repl for changing namespaces, loading your namespace into user, etc
15:26	ivaraasen	Frozenlock: well, I was trying to implement an interface somewhat similar to Flop, so, yes
15:26	xeqi	yedi, S11001001: C-c M-n will change the namespace to the current buffer
15:28	tomoj	apparently Comparator is the reason AFunction exists
15:29	S11001001	yedi: I recommend using what xeqi mentioned. You can :use your ns into user, but that won't pick up changes you make to the ns, and won't give you access to private defs in your ns, so can get very annoying
15:29	S11001001	xeqi: I always forget that binding :]
15:30	seangrove	Goddamn, I don't understand deftype in cljs
15:30	yedi	S11001001, xeqi: thanks a lot, i'm still having trouble getting the hang of emacs esp in conjunction with learning clojure
15:31	S11001001	Emacs for life
15:31	Frozenlock	^
15:31	tomoj	emacs for now
15:31	seangrove	What is the this inside of the functions generated by deftype?
15:32	tomoj	maybe you're older than me, but I hope to use something much better before I die :)
15:32	Frozenlock	tomoj: emacs with some kind of graphical support?
15:33	tomoj	heh
15:34	tomoj	seangrove: inside?
15:34	ChongLi	ahh this is funny
15:34	tomoj	inside should just be the code you wrote
15:34	ChongLi	functional programming in C
15:34	ChongLi	list *
15:34	ChongLi	map(list l, void (fn)(void , void ), void args)
15:34	seangrove	tomoj: One second...
15:35	S11001001	tomoj: I assume the much better thing will simply be an enhanced emacs :)
15:35	Frozenlock	emacs with namespace would be nice
15:35	S11001001	faketional programming
15:35	gfredericks	seangrove: the first argument to any deftype function is this
15:36	gfredericks	you can call it `this` or anything else
15:36	ChongLi	basically shotting off the type system at this point
15:36	seangrove	https://www.refheap.com/paste/8994
15:36	ChongLi	if you're only using void pointers
15:36	tomoj	oh, "the this"
15:36	seangrove	I see that self__ = this, stats_control = this
15:36	Frozenlock	Not knowing JS, could someone briefly explain what it 'this'?
15:37	ChongLi	Frozenlock: briefly?
15:37	Frozenlock	s/it/is
15:37	seangrove	Not 100% clear on how the 'this' is getting assigned
15:37	ChongLi	javascript has late binding
15:37	gfredericks	Frozenlock: it's a magical -1th argument to every function
15:37	ChongLi	so 'this' is set at call time
15:38	ChongLi	'this' is not lexically scoped
15:38	ivan	it is the most evil thing :(
15:38	gfredericks	ivan: but but! object orientation!
15:38	gfredericks	right!?
15:38	ChongLi	no
15:38	clojurebot	flatten \|is\| rarely the right answer. What if your "base type" is a list
15:38	ChongLi	other OO languages handle 'this' properly
15:38	Bodil	seangrove: OK, I managed to make Pylon work with advanced optimisations, making a release now. :)
15:38	Frozenlock	ChongLi: So you don't know what it will be in advance?
15:38	seangrove	Bodil: Ah, ok, thank you so much
15:38	ChongLi	Frozenlock: right
15:39	seangrove	This is such a horrid nightmare
15:39	gfredericks	Frozenlock: you can be pretty sure if you're doing things normally though
15:39	ChongLi	best practice is to assign something else to this and then pass that in
15:39	gfredericks	it's not like it's randomly selected by the runtime or anything
15:39	ChongLi	afaik
15:40	gfredericks	it's only mildly different from if it were just an explicit first argument
15:40	seangrove	Frozenlock: You'll see a lot of "var self = this;" type stuff, and then using "self" from then on, in case 'this' changes in a callback
15:40	gfredericks	an first argument that you had to name `this` so that it shadowed any outer occurrences :)
15:40	ChongLi	javascript is such a strange language
15:41	ivan	http://ecma262-5.com/ELS5_HTML.htm#Section_10.4.3
15:41	ChongLi	I mean, it has lexical closures right there!
15:41	ivan	my favorite step is "Else if thisArg is null or undefined, set the ThisBinding to the global object."
15:42	ChongLi	yeah
15:42	ChongLi	so if you screw up your invocation of a constructor you risk trashing the global object
15:42	Frozenlock	So 'this' can never be null? Weird first argument :P
15:43	gfredericks	oh I didn't realize that
15:43	gfredericks	at least in the case of f.call(null)
15:43	ChongLi	javascript has all kinds of "helpful" stuff going on
15:44	gfredericks	so for CLJS golf, maybe js/this is a shortcut for js/window
15:44	ChongLi	like null == undefined
15:44	ChongLi	for example
15:44	gfredericks	ChongLi: 0 == [] I think
15:44	ChongLi	oh it's even worse than that
15:45	ChongLi	"0" == false
15:45	gfredericks	oh nevermind js/this doesn't work
15:45	gfredericks	ChongLi: holy cow
15:46	ChongLi	another fun one is to write a function which counts the occurrences of words in a string
15:46	Frozenlock	ChongLi: wait, the string zero is false?
15:46	ChongLi	yeah
15:46	Frozenlock	mind blown
15:46	gfredericks	Frozenlock: it must helpfully convert it to a number first
15:47	ChongLi	javascript implicitly coerces the types on both sides of the expression until they're comparable
15:47	gfredericks	despite the fact that you're not even comparing it to a number
15:47	ChongLi	so "0" will get turned to 0
15:47	ivan	"-0" == false :)
15:47	gfredericks	ChongLi: how does that help comparing to a boolean though?
15:47	ChongLi	0 in js is false
15:47	gfredericks	yes I know
15:48	ChongLi	as is -0
15:48	gfredericks	but strings are generally true excepting ""
15:48	gfredericks	so the fact that the string contains a number seems irrelevant when comparing to a boolean
15:48	Frozenlock	what about "false" == false
15:48	ChongLi	no, that's false
15:48	gfredericks	I'm just saying this makes one chunk less sense than "0" == 0
15:49	seangrove	Bodil: Let me know when you've pushed the new release
15:49	ChongLi	it'll keep trying until it lines up the types to do a comparison
15:49	gfredericks	I'll stop trying to make sense of it
15:49	ChongLi	this is how all operators in javascript work (except for the reference ones)
15:50	ChongLi	=== is reference equality
15:50	ChongLi	aka pointer equality
15:50	ChongLi	so that'll pretty much always work
15:50	ChongLi	except when you have two objects that are equal but not the same
15:50	ChongLi	that's pretty rare though
15:51	gfredericks	I'm just thinking that you can satisfy the "coerce until comparable" description by going straight from a string to a boolean without the intervening number
15:51	gfredericks	"This string is not empty, thus it is == true"
15:52	ChongLi	it basically converts both to a number
15:52	ChongLi	false gets converted to 0
15:52	dabd	why does sort accepts both (comparator some-pred) and some-pred as the comparator argument?
15:53	ChongLi	dabd: hmm?
15:53	dabd	obv some-pred does not implement the java.util.Comparator interface so I don't understand how it works
15:53	gfredericks	ChongLi: that would lead me to expect "foo" == 7
15:53	dabd	,(sort < [5 3 1 7])
15:53	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7)
15:53	ChongLi	no
15:54	dabd	,(sort (comparator <) [5 3 1 7])
15:54	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7)
15:54	ChongLi	"foo" gets parsed as NaN
15:54	dabd	both work
15:54	gfredericks	ChongLi: oh right; I retract previous statement
15:55	ChongLi	comparator is useful with java.util.Collections/sort
15:55	ChongLi	dabd: does that help?
15:55	ChongLi	here's the other interesting thing
15:56	ChongLi	in order to make sure "foo" == "bar" returns false (and some other things)
15:56	ChongLi	NaN == NaN always returns false
15:56	gfredericks	well that implies "foo" == "foo" returns false
15:56	ChongLi	oh good point
15:57	ChongLi	but NaN == NaN does return false
15:57	ChongLi	which is bizarre
15:57	gfredericks	is NaN in the floating point spec?
15:57	ChongLi	yeah
15:57	dabd	it does not explain why it accepts a function that does not implement the java.util.Comparator interface when the documentation states that it must do
15:57	gfredericks	do they say anything about NaN == NaN
15:58	ChongLi	dabd: clojure.core/sort accepts any predicate
15:58	ChongLi	java.util.Collections/sort requires that the predicate be an implementation of java.util.Comparator
15:59	ChongLi	dabd: why would clojure.core/sort be written to have a limitation of java when it doesn't have to?
16:00	Frozenlock	Is it possible to "(set! (.-onload js/window) some-fn)" multiple time, or will it erase any previous functions?
16:00	gfredericks	,(doc sort)
16:00	clojurebot	"([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
16:00	gfredericks	ChongLi: I think he's asking why the docs say otherwise
16:00	ChongLi	hmm let me see
16:01	dabd	I'm looking at the sort implementation for explanations :-)
16:01	gfredericks	,(instance? java.util.Comparator <)
16:01	clojurebot	true
16:01	gfredericks	^ that's probably part of it
16:01	ChongLi	ah so there you go
16:01	gfredericks	I suspect the docs are accurate as the type hint is there
16:01	dabd	aha
16:01	dabd	thanks gfredericks
16:01	gfredericks	,(sort #(< %1 %2) [1 2 3 4])
16:01	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
16:02	S11001001	&(instance? java.util.Comparator (fn [] 42))
16:02	lazybot	⇒ true
16:02	ChongLi	so there you go
16:02	gfredericks	,(instance? java.util.Comparator fn?)
16:02	clojurebot	true
16:02	gfredericks	welp.
16:02	gfredericks	that's interesting.
16:02	ChongLi	all clojure functions automatically implement it
16:02	gfredericks	,(instance? java.util.Comparator {})
16:02	clojurebot	false
16:02	gfredericks	,(parents clojure.lang.Fn)
16:02	clojurebot	nil
16:02	gfredericks	,(supers clojure.lang.Fn)
16:02	clojurebot	nil
16:02	ChongLi	,(instance? java.util.Comparator #{})
16:02	clojurebot	false
16:02	ChongLi	hmmm
16:03	ChongLi	oh right
16:03	gfredericks	oh Fn is an interface
16:03	gfredericks	what the heck
16:03	ChongLi	a comparator is not a normal predicate
16:03	gfredericks	,(supers (class (fn [] 42)))
16:03	dabd	the implementation shows (. java.util.Arrays (sort a comp))
16:03	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.Fn java.io.Serializable java.util.concurrent.Callable java.util.Comparator ...}
16:03	dabd	what sort is being called in (sort a comp)?
16:04	ChongLi	it returns -1 0 1 I believe
16:04	ChongLi	,((comparator >) 3 2)
16:05	clojurebot	-1
16:05	tomoj	&(.compare (fn [x y] (< x y)) 3 2)
16:05	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:05	ChongLi	,((comparator >) 2 3)
16:05	clojurebot	1
16:05	ChongLi	yeah there you go
16:05	tomoj	this is what I was talking about earlier
16:05	ChongLi	dabd: does that clear it up for you?
16:05	tomoj	on AFunctions, comparator is identity
16:06	tomoj	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/a5f786a847a202e78048dae8fdf15a7e8748dd3d/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46
16:07	tomoj	(well, comparator isn't really identity of course - only as far as .compare is concerned)
16:07	tomoj	oops, ##(.compare < 2 3)
16:07	lazybot	⇒ -1
16:13	ohpauleez	For those interested in the Leap Motion: http://www.pauldee.org/ClojureLeapMouse.mov
16:13	ohpauleez	30 second teaser of mousing using Leap and Clojure
16:14	ohpauleez	the API/Library, clojure-leap, has gesture recognition. In that example I use a gesture to toggle the Leap on and off
16:15	ohpauleez	For all coming to Clojure/West, you're welcome to play with it :)
16:15	seangrove	ohpauleez: Looks awesome!
16:16	ohpauleez	seangrove: Thanks!
16:16	ohpauleez	That was all possible in about two days worth of work. Gotta love Clojure
16:16	tomoj	ohpauleez: sweet
16:16	seangrove	Looking up leap motion now...
16:18	ohpauleez	tomoj: Playing with it on the repl is a blast
16:18	tomoj	so you need some special driver I guess?
16:19	seangrove	ohpauleez: how'd you get one? Looks like they're still pre-order
16:20	ohpauleez	it's just a USB device + generic driver
16:20	TimMc	seangrove: Just coming into the conversation, I couldn't figure out how tree traversal algorithms were related to this. :-P
16:20	ohpauleez	seangrove: developer program
16:22	ChongLi	man what's up with vlc?
16:22	ChongLi	I pause your video
16:22	ChongLi	and then when I restart it it plays a few seconds and then kicks out of full screen and stops the video
16:23	Raynes	ohpauleez: Give me your leap motion thingy.
16:23	ohpauleez	haha
16:23	Raynes	I want it.
16:23	Raynes	It's unfair that I don't have mine yet.
16:23	ohpauleez	Also, that code example is 38 lines of code
16:24	seangrove	ohpauleez: Do you have any specific use-case for it in mind?
16:25	ohpauleez	seangrove: I'm creating a 3D equivalent of the the FingerWorks TouchStream experience
16:25	ohpauleez	Adaptive keyboard, mousing, macro'd gestures
16:25	ohpauleez	etc
16:26	ohpauleez	technomancy: sick!
16:26	technomancy	it's interesting. completely useless for typing, but fun for games and stuff.
16:26	technomancy	I'd probably use it if I actually did design work or something.
16:26	Raynes	<3 das
16:26	ohpauleez	it's interesting, doing the adaptive typing for the Leap has been super hard as well
16:26	ChongLi	das keyboard?
16:27	ChongLi	I've got a filco
16:27	ivaraasen	I've got a ThinkPad
16:27	seangrove	ohpauleez: ... as a kind of 3d keyboard?
16:27	ChongLi	since getting used to a filco I find rubber-dome keyboards intolerable!
16:27	technomancy	I even have a 2003-era ibook that I keep around only because it's the only thing with an old enough USB stack to be able to reprogram the touchstream =\
16:27	tomoj	"perfectly smooth surface" re touchstream
16:27	tomoj	hopefully it does have imperfections?
16:28	tomoj	..preferably on 'f' and 'j' ?
16:28	technomancy	not that I would have ever forgiven them for killing hypercard, mind you.
16:28	Apage43	ChongLi: Heh, I've taken mine to work
16:28	ohpauleez	seangrove: The idea is that you can place your hands anywhere (in your lap, for example) and type. Based on the diffs/deltas/motions, I know what key you intended
16:28	Raynes	ChongLi: Yeah, das.
16:28	Apage43	the clacking reverberates throughout the office
16:28	ChongLi	I'd have gotten a das if they offered a tenkeyless one
16:28	seangrove	ohpauleez: Crazy, that would be amazing
16:28	Raynes	ChongLi: I use it and my macbook pro's keyboard. I find the macbook's keyboard surprisingly tolerable.
16:29	ChongLi	I'm all about the tenkeyless
16:29	ChongLi	I don't know anyone who does extensive work on a numeric keypad
16:30	Apage43	ChongLi: shrug I rarely -use- the numpad and junk, but I don't begrudge having it there. I'd like to get a tenkeyless that has a detachable cable though, just for portability.
16:30	Raynes	I prefer having a numpad.
16:30	Raynes	I mean, I wish it were smaller, but when I do need it I'm happy it is there
16:30	ohpauleez	Raynes: For when you're adding up all your fat stacks of cash?
16:31	ChongLi	I find the numpad forces my arms too far apart
16:31	Raynes	Yeah, man.
16:31	ivaraasen	I tried doing stuff with Emacspeak once. it was ... interesting.
16:31	ohpauleez	But for real, I live just a couple of blocks from the venue of Clojure/West
16:31	ohpauleez	happy to let people play around with the Leap Motion
16:31	Raynes	I fully intend to take my das on my first day of work Monday after next and pound on it until my team's ears bleed.
16:31	ivaraasen	ohpauleez: too lucky, man
16:32	technomancy	hmm... maybe I can unload my touchstream at clojurewest if there's interest in gesturey stuff =)
16:32	ChongLi	Raynes: at least it's not a unicomp
16:32	ChongLi	I'm tempted to get one of those
16:32	ChongLi	I wish they'd make a tenkeyless!
16:32	ohpauleez	technomancy: I'm always looking for well-maintained TouchStreams
16:32	ChongLi	from what I've heard unicomp has fallen a bit on hard times
16:33	ohpauleez	Raynes: Where are you starting to work?
16:33	ChongLi	people only ever need one of their keyboards
16:33	ChongLi	the buckling springs are too durable!
16:33	Raynes	ohpauleez: Finally moving to LA to work full time at Geni/MyHeritage.
16:33	ohpauleez	cool
16:33	ohpauleez	congrats!
16:33	technomancy	ohpauleez: mine is actually a digitouch, one of the ones originally designed for internal use on 2004-era macbooks but put in a case.
16:33	ChongLi	that sounds pretty exciting
16:33	ChongLi	do they use clojail?
16:34	ChongLi	I love that talk btw
16:34	Raynes	Well, we use lazybot which uses clojail.
16:34	Raynes	So I guess you could say that.
16:34	Raynes	I've been working for them for 2 years as an intern.
16:34	Raynes	Remotely.
16:34	Raynes	Also, thanks.
16:35	technomancy	are you going to level up to non-intern-ness?
16:35	Raynes	That talk is unfortunately entirely inaccurate now. I've rewritten half of the thing since then.
16:35	ChongLi	you nailed one of the most important aspects of giving a good talk: use humor
16:35	bbloom	,(into {} (map vec (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2])))
16:35	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
16:35	bbloom	,(into {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))
16:35	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
16:35	bbloom	i know i can do:
16:35	bbloom	,(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2])
16:35	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
16:35	bbloom	but what if i have a record type i want to into with a sequence of key vals? something like:
16:35	Raynes	technomancy: Yes, this is is a full time non-intern stealing-you-old-timer's-jobs position.
16:35	technomancy	nice
16:35	Apage43	i once leveled up to non-internness
16:35	Apage43	it was okay
16:36	hiredman	,(conj {} '(:a 1))
16:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
16:36	bbloom	(into (Foo. 1 2) [:x 3 :y 4])
16:36	ChongLi	pretty soon you'll be partying in hollywood
16:36	hiredman	,(conj {} [:a 1])
16:36	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:36	Raynes	I'm reaching non-intern level 4. It's like Super Saiyan 3, but with better salary.
16:36	bbloom	hiredman: yup, so i don't have an empty {}, i have a record with stuff in it
16:36	bbloom	hiredman: what's the best way to poor a sequence into there
16:37	hiredman	reduce
16:37	technomancy	Raynes: word of advice: pick the longsword proficiency
16:37	ChongLi	I think everybody knows that
16:37	ChongLi	longswords are the best!
16:37	Raynes	Really? I was hoping for archery.
16:37	bbloom	s/poor/pour
16:37	bbloom	hiredman: reduce assoc?
16:38	gfredericks	into uses transients
16:38	bbloom	hiredman: with the partition 2 in there, then it needs to destructure too, seems relatively inefficient
16:38	seangrove	Didn't realize technomancy was an old-timer
16:39	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, i'm looking for the most idiomatic way to pour a sequence into a record efficiently
16:39	gfredericks	bbloom: oh I guess records can't transient?
16:40	ChongLi	anyone here read the reasoned schemer?
16:40	ChongLi	(I assume some have)
16:40	bbloom	gfredericks: apparently not. into checks instance? IEditableCollection
16:40	bbloom	records do not appear to be editable collections
16:40	bbloom	which kinda sucks
16:41	hiredman	gfredericks: it doesn't matter, his problemis he is trying to conj lists created by partition-all instead of 2 elements vactors on to a map
16:41	josteink	technomancy: congrats on the lein 2 release!
16:41	bbloom	,(reduce (partial apply assoc) {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))
16:41	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
16:42	technomancy	josteink: thanks!
16:42	josteink	I saw someone on HN refer to leiningen as such a fantastic tool, that it alone was worth learning clojure for ;)
16:42	josteink	(in case you missed it)
16:42	tomoj	bbloom: records don't need to be editable, do they?
16:42	josteink	its really very, very good
16:42	ChongLi	josteink: yeah I saw (and mentioned) the same thing
16:42	josteink	so a happy weekend to you :)
16:42	tomoj	I guess it could help
16:42	hiredman	bbloom: I would be surprised if papply is more efficient then destructuring
16:43	bbloom	hiredman: oh yeah, clearly gonna be a wash, i'm just trying to figure out what to do exactly
16:43	bbloom	tomoj: one of the main reasons for records is performance, is it not?
16:43	ChongLi	performance and polymorphism
16:44	bbloom	ChongLi: right
16:44	bbloom	,(->> [:a 1 :b 2] (partition 2) (map vec))
16:44	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2])
16:44	hiredman	they cannot support O(1) transition from from persistent to transient
16:44	hiredman	records don't have the tree structure required for it, exactly for performance
16:45	tomoj	well O(k) where k is number of fields?
16:45	ivaraasen	wow, primitives are way faster than I initially suspected
16:45	tomoj	I mean the extmap is editable, right?
16:46	tomoj	but I guess that's only useful if you're stuffing a whole bunch of ext keys in
16:47	bbloom	hiredman: the number of defined fields is a constant, so it's technically O(1) to copy them all
16:47	Raynes	drewr: https://github.com/Raynes/postal/commit/ca4561f1f82266443aacd49161a10fa89e6e96ca just did this for fun (haven't had much chance to use conch myself, and I found a small thing that needed changing by doing this, so hooray). Not sure if you'd be interested, but thar she blows.
16:48	bbloom	hiredman: and if that number is < 30 (the branching factor of the vector objects) then it's probably cheaper to copy them than it is to create intermediate nodes
16:48	bbloom	anyway, i'm going with map vec for now
17:01	tomoj	"the" android terminal emulator?
17:02	josteink	the AOSP one, or one shipped with AOSP roms
17:02	josteink	or AOSP-based ones like CM
17:02	josteink	on a machine with a good keybord dock, like the asus transformer, the terminal emulator makes for a good hacking space
17:02	josteink	on a machine with 16 hours battery life ;)
17:07	ivaraasen	josteink: oh what I would give for decent battery life
17:08	josteink	I tried using my actual laptop earlier today, from the couch. lasted me less than 2 hours
17:08	josteink	thats just not good enough
17:11	ivaraasen	josteink: I've got about five hours. considering adding a slice battery for long hikes
17:11	tgoossens	Out of the tarpit. I've been hearing about it a few times now. Someone read it here?
17:11	hyPiRion	tgoossens: yes
17:11	ivaraasen	tgoossens: yeah, it's a pretty good read.
17:11	ChongLi	it's not that long either
17:12	tgoossens	i'm searching some reading material for while travelling (and next semester)
17:12	warz	if ive used gen-class in one namespace to create an aot compiled class, and i need to create an instance of it in a different namespace, do i have to :import it like a java class?
17:13	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: woho, just finished some macros inspired by Flop. it's pretty nice to use primitives without all the clutter.
17:13	tgoossens	currently i'm reading the pragmatic programmer, interesting book
17:13	ChongLi	tgoossens: what's your list so far?
17:13	josteink	tgoossens: it has very good ideas. the hard part is picking them up and actually taking them seriously. translating them into action.
17:13	tgoossens	josteink: that's always the tricky part
17:14	tgoossens	let me see what do i have in my library
17:14	josteink	tgoossens: some ideas are more seductive than others ;)
17:14	tgoossens	seven programming languages in seven weeks (not really useful while travelling i think)
17:14	josteink	tgoossens: TPP's ideas tend to leave you with (what seems like) more work ;P
17:15	tgoossens	josteink: i'm at page 40, so still lot to read :)
17:15	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Sounds useful, link?
17:15	ChongLi	paul graham's on lisp is pretty nice
17:15	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: they support bindings, so finding the dot product is as simple as (asum [x xs y ys] (* x y)
17:15	tgoossens	Functional programming for the OO programmer (by marick)
17:16	tgoossens	and "how to so solve it"
17:16	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: Flop isn't released yet I'm afraid. but it's probably going to be quite nice.
17:16	tgoossens	but i think tarpit & pragmatic programmer is enought for the coming weeks :p
17:17	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: I was thinking about your macros :)
17:17	tgoossens	fun fact: i never read programming books before until I came into contact with the clojure community.
17:17	tgoossens	Its almost unavoidable
17:17	tgoossens	everytime I watch a talk
17:17	tgoossens	"you should read/buy this book at amazon" :p
17:18	ChongLi	tgoossens: yeah same here pretty much
17:18	ChongLi	when I started with haskell (before clojure) I mainly read academic papers
17:18	ChongLi	many of which were very hard to follow
17:19	tgoossens	never read papers really
17:19	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: oh, gimme a sec
17:19	ChongLi	a lot of them used denotational semantics
17:19	josteink	ChongLi: Ive tried to complete SICP (but its pretty damn long :P ), and found it very englightening so far
17:19	ChongLi	which I have yet to learn
17:19	josteink	ChongLi: how does PG's book relate to that?
17:19	ChongLi	yeah SICP is great
17:20	josteink	is it trying to sell me lisp, or is it trying to teach lispers something new?
17:20	ChongLi	on lisp is basically all about macros
17:20	josteink	hm ok. sounds nice.
17:20	ChongLi	it was the first book to really dive in and give tons of example macros
17:20	tgoossens	so far, reading TPP has been really confronting
17:21	ChongLi	some of the macros in PG's book are pretty hard to follow
17:21	josteink	tgoossens: the first thing TPP tought me was that Im not really such a good programmer as I tend to think I am :P
17:21	ChongLi	but I suspect that's due to bad formatting on my kindle
17:21	tgoossens	josteink: exactly
17:21	josteink	ChongLi: Ive had the same issue with other programming books on the kindle
17:21	ChongLi	hard wrapping can screw up indentation and really make code a chore to read
17:21	josteink	mhm
17:22	ChongLi	SICP's ebook version is well formatted though
17:23	tgoossens	josteink: with me. It invoked a sudden change in direction. My idea has always been to go and study software engineering
17:23	tgoossens	but suddenly i realised
17:23	tgoossens	that might not be the best choice for me
17:23	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: https://www.refheap.com/paste/c3b278e7697715aa8b5ff9b19
17:24	ChongLi	from what I've seen a lot of schools tend to just churn out java CRUD programmers
17:24	tgoossens	because
17:24	tgoossens	I have gotten the impression that I am going to waste my time
17:24	tgoossens	for a large part
17:24	josteink	ChongLi: I did Electrical engineering, and just graduated when the industry had token a complete nosedive
17:25	ChongLi	if you can take a course that still teaches SICP it'd be worth it
17:25	josteink	ChongLi: for every job I applied, tehre were 100 experienced engineers who had just gotten downsized
17:25	tgoossens	this is what i'm heading for now
17:25	tgoossens	http://onderwijsaanbod.kuleuven.be/opleidingen/v/e/SC_51016867.htm#bl=01
17:25	ChongLi	josteink: that's awful
17:25	josteink	I stood no chance getting a job. So my childhood hobby of programming it was :P
17:25	josteink	could have been worse :)
17:25	tgoossens	josteink: programming has always been my hobby
17:25	tgoossens	and suddenly i realised
17:25	tgoossens	it should stay that way
17:26	tgoossens	at least while i'm at college
17:26	josteink	yeah thaht was my idea as well
17:26	tgoossens	I have no interest in being pushed in some
17:26	tgoossens	direction
17:26	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:26	josteink	didnt quite work out that well :P
17:26	tgoossens	being oblligated
17:26	tgoossens	to work on certain concepts
17:26	tgoossens	i want to keep exploring on my own
17:26	tgoossens	in my case
17:26	tgoossens	my whole master revolves around OO
17:26	tgoossens	and I am not willing to cope with that
17:27	tgoossens	long story short
17:27	tgoossens	I realized that what i would be learning is
17:27	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: thanks!
17:27	tgoossens	1) when i graduate it is old knowledge.
17:27	josteink	ah well. a degree CAN be a career-opener.
17:28	tgoossens	2) is not something i cannot learn on my own (for the most part)
17:28	josteink	most jobs wants/expects some sort of papers ;)
17:28	ChongLi	don't disparage old knowledge
17:28	tgoossens	chongli:i don't
17:28	ChongLi	most people still haven't realized the powerful stuff you'll find in stuff like SICP and On Lisp
17:28	josteink	they have gotten me jobs though ;)
17:28	tomoj	hmm, wikipedia says SSA is a well-behaved subset of CPS which "excludes non-local control". are promises that too?
17:29	tgoossens	its just
17:29	tgoossens	i know a lot of people (even some working at google now)
17:29	tgoossens	that never even studied software engineering
17:29	josteink	sure
17:29	josteink	but dont trick yourself into thinking the exception is the rule
17:29	tgoossens	hmmyes
17:30	josteink	while you are discussing reasons to NOT get a degree
17:30	josteink	Im a practicing professional
17:30	tgoossens	i AM going to get a degree
17:30	tgoossens	but in a different profession :p
17:30	tgoossens	*master
17:30	josteink	which never got an (IT) degree, who wish he had ;)
17:30	tgoossens	hmm
17:30	tgoossens	i have 6 months stillb
17:30	josteink	there is some theoretical background Id really like to have, which Ill never have the time to read up on now
17:31	tgoossens	before i have to choose
17:31	devn	universities work with private businesses
17:31	tgoossens	its only been a few days that
17:31	tgoossens	this idea has been going through my heaf
17:31	tgoossens	*head
17:31	josteink	but lets flip perspective slightly
17:31	josteink	you live in the US, right?
17:31	tgoossens	belgium
17:31	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: it was a fun exercise. hopefully it'll be useful for some numerics stuff I'm planning on doing in Clojure
17:31	josteink	ok. same deal. western world
17:32	josteink	why would you invest your future in something which everyone will outsource to india in 10 years? :P
17:32	tgoossens	simple
17:33	tgoossens	its ME who is going to send it TO india then ;) :p
17:33	tgoossens	but no
17:33	tgoossens	i'm not really into that
17:33	tgoossens	idea
17:33	tgoossens	outsourcing can be great
17:33	tgoossens	for cost
17:33	devn	just don't be outsourceable and you don't have a problem.
17:34	devn	it's a choice you have throughout any career in nearly any field
17:34	josteink	It was a tongue-in-cheek remark
17:34	josteink	but still
17:34	josteink	looking at the IT world today, compared to 10 years ago.... lots of skills I had is now either obsolete or priced obscenely low
17:35	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Yeah, I find math in Clojure to be rather slow without those tricks, so those were handy.
17:35	tgoossens	josteink: the thing i'm considering studying now is. Numerical models for scientific purposes
17:35	josteink	Im not sure where IT is going to be heading (job-wise) the next 10 years. Im not sure where i'd put my bets ;)
17:36	tgoossens	and simulations
17:36	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: yeah. I tried doing some geomechanics stuff. probably should've used matrices anyway, but still, way too slow
17:37	tgoossens	oh well
17:37	tgoossens	just dreaming and thinking
17:37	tgoossens	still got time to think and choose
17:37	tgoossens	and change opinions
17:37	tgoossens	its a good thing i'm actively thinking about it though
17:38	seangrove	Bodil: Are you able to work in the repl with pylon, when building up classes with them?
17:38	seangrove	Seems to be breaking with chrome as the eval env
17:38	tgoossens	i better go to bed now. Still have to study for my exam :)
17:39	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: hah, yeah. I tend to go down to C/CUDA when running HPC-stuff. Thinking about doing some CUDA/Java/Clojure wrapping, seems useful considering the speed gain you get.
17:39	Bodil	seangrove: Only tried with Node, but that should work.
17:40	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: that would be awesome. I'm rooting for core.matrix myself
17:42	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Oh yeah, I saw it on the Clojure-dev list the other day.
17:42	hyPiRion	Would be sweet to have something in core.
17:43	josteink	"One kernel to rule them all, one protocol to find them, one terminal to to bring them all and in the darkness bind... err... send commands to them."
17:45	technomancy	http://first.clojure-conj.org/speakers#mcgranaghan
17:45	josteink	haha. nice
17:46	josteink	I was thinking more about linux than ring though ;)
17:46	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: definitely. it will probably take a couple of iterations before they come up with the right abstractions though. core libraries aren't supposed to break backwards compatibility that often, I believe
17:46	josteink	didn't know "ring" came from such a deep metaphor though
17:46	technomancy	well... not really
17:47	technomancy	more like Wagner
17:47	technomancy	the request/response cycle
17:47	technomancy	is shaped like a ring
17:47	josteink	fair enough
17:47	technomancy	(not actually Wagner, just making a "ring cycle" joke)
17:48	ivaraasen	technomancy: that's still pretty deep, man
17:48	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Yeah. At least it's a start. It would probably take some time to get it up too, from my JIRA experiences.
17:50	ChongLi	das rheingold!
17:50	technomancy	kind of disappointed there aren't more wagner-themed ring libraries actually
17:53	seangrove	Bodil: Maybe I have a typo in here somewhere, but getting this error: clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Could not locate pylon/macros__init.class or pylon/macros.clj on classpath: at line 1 {:tag :cljs/analysis-error, :file nil, :line 1}
17:53	seangrove	Here's the code I'm trying to eval: https://www.refheap.com/paste/05eeaac85264aee5dc0cd5f8b
17:53	seangrove	It compiles without warning and loads, but after connecting the browser to nrepl, I get the above error
17:54	seangrove	Maybe this is expected and I'm just confused
17:54	Bodil	seangrove: So it's the (ns) that doesn't eval?
17:55	seangrove	Hrm, actually, let me try restarting my nrepl server
17:55	Bodil	seangrove: Sounds like it's got classpath issues - afraid that's a bit beyond me. But definitely not expected.
17:55	seangrove	No problem, just glad to clarify :)
17:56	seangrove	What was the problem with advanced mode, by the way?
17:57	tomoj	(.contains (base32-encode (hmac "HmacSHA1" "foo" "foobarbaz")) "JAVA")
17:58	Bodil	seangrove: It's currently doing things like class.prototype["method"] = function instead of class.prototype.method = function to define methods; Closure Compiler leaves the former unmangled, but not the latter. And you're normally calling your methods using the latter, so...
17:59	Bodil	seangrove: That was the short explanation, at least :)
17:59	seangrove	Yeah, sounds like what I went through as well
17:59	seangrove	Definitely careful with aset/aget now...
17:59	TimMc	tomoj: ?!
18:00	tomoj	that was the very first thing I tried, too, not like I kept going till I saw a message in the sig
18:00	tomoj	but what's the PETWHAC?
18:00	seangrove	Bodil: Getting this error now with nrepl-jack-in: Invalid js form js/Object.getPrototypeOf at line 11 file:/Users/sgrove/.m2/repository/org/bodil/pylon/0.1.0/pylon-0.1.0.jar!/pylon/classes.cljs
18:01	seangrove	I can fix that up and submit a pr...
18:01	Bodil	seangrove: Hmm, what cljs version are you using?
18:02	seangrove	Bodil: head
18:02	seangrove	More or less, I think
18:03	seangrove	Might be a week or two old now
18:03	Bodil	Weird... that form compiles for me.
18:03	Bodil	But yeah, it should probably be (.getPrototypeOf js/Object)
18:05	tomoj	I think there's a 1/32^3 = 1/32768 chance of finding a particular length 4 string in a base32-HmacSHA1? so surprise ~= 0
18:07	tomoj	well 29/32^4 or whatever
18:09	gfredericks	how does core.logic/occurs-check work?
18:10	TimMc	tomoj: I don't know much about HMAC -- does this rely on whatever random init key was used?
18:10	tomoj	the key was "foobarbaz"
18:10	tomoj	that expression will always return the same result
18:12	TimMc	tomoj: I was trying to reproduce this using javax.crypto but couldn't figure out how to initialize HmacSHA1 with a non-random key.
18:15	tomoj	https://github.com/kzar/ring-hmac-check/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/hmac_check.clj
18:16	gfredericks	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uniform_tiling_54-t2.png
18:16	gfredericks	^ exploring that with core.logic (or any other paradigm I know of) is mildly maddening.
18:16	tomoj	interesting
18:18	josteink	seangrove: I must admit I found cljs not quite sexy as I expected it to be
18:18	seangrove	josteink: In general, I love it
18:18	seangrove	Some very painful edges though
18:18	josteink	the idea is good
18:19	josteink	but you want to be able to work with everything else wonderful in JS land
18:19	josteink	and none of that follows any sort of clojure convention
18:19	tomoj	gfredericks: why core.logic?
18:19	seangrove	Not sure how much is wonderful out there, though
18:19	josteink	seangrove: its sure more wonderful than reinventing a wheel ;)
18:20	seangrove	josteink: In most cases, yes
18:20	tomoj	I wrote something in cljs that did a triangular tiling
18:20	seangrove	But having built some large javascript apps now, I can say, not always :)
18:20	josteink	anyway
18:20	seangrove	We built an mvp on jquery and friends, and it worked alright until it didn't - leaked a lot of memory, speed issues, hard to refactor
18:20	josteink	I wasnt trying to cause a bad vibe. more interested in seeing a cøljs "sucess case"
18:20	seangrove	A lot of that lands on us, but a lot lands on bad practices in the stuff out there
18:21	seangrove	If you're talking about angular and friends, I'm certainly much more interested though
18:21	gfredericks	tomoj: because I don't have any coordinate system I know of that I can use
18:21	josteink	Ive yet to decide if I like angular
18:21	seangrove	They seem to be writing some clean code, and I don't think it fits in smoothly with cljs yet
18:21	josteink	to be quite honest
18:21	gfredericks	thus a major problem is telling when two descriptions of a square are the same square
18:21	seangrove	Though bbloom would know more about that than me
18:21	seangrove	Why's that? I haven't used it yet
18:22	seangrove	It just looks far more suitable than jQuery and the myriad of plugins
18:22	josteink	its a bit too much magic :)
18:22	josteink	I like to knkow whats happening, what my contexts are, and to be able to debug my code without the need for breakpoints ;)
18:22	tomoj	oh, you already can generate the squares?
18:23	gfredericks	tomoj: well I can easily generate all paths from a starting point
18:23	gfredericks	but then how can I tell if two paths lead to the same place?
18:23	josteink	also, Im sceptical about buying into a google controlled "open source" project if I can choose not to
18:23	josteink	they control enough of the internet already
18:23	tomoj	you mean because of rounding error?
18:23	josteink	they shouldnt have to be in control of MY code :P
18:23	gfredericks	tomoj: no I'm trying to do this in an algebraic way rather than geometric
18:24	gfredericks	so e.g. [:left :up :up :right]
18:24	tomoj	oh, now it makes sense
18:24	tomoj	very cool
18:24	seangrove	Heh, well, that's one way of looking at it
18:24	gfredericks	well left/right/up/down aren't well defined
18:24	gfredericks	so it's more like forward-left-right-forward or something like that
18:24	gfredericks	this is all very trippy :/
18:26	gfredericks	I'm trying to use unification to some effect or another
18:28	josteink	seangrove: my main complaint about angular is that it seems very fuzzy where the border goes for what is data and what is code
18:28	josteink	seangrove: in a bad way, quite unlike in lisps :P
18:30	TimMc	gfredericks: So you need some way of saying what the canonical path to a square is.
18:30	gfredericks	TimMc: that would definitely be useful.
18:33	TimMc	gfredericks: Is there an origin square or an origin vertex?
18:33	gfredericks	may as well assume so
18:33	gfredericks	I'm dealing with vertices at the moment
18:33	TimMc	No, I mean which one?
18:33	gfredericks	so an origin vertex
18:34	gfredericks	I'm trying the approach of ignoring the squares and just thinking of it as a graph where each vertex has 5 neighbors
18:34	gfredericks	just an algorithm that can return the number of vertices within N hops would be an achievement
18:35	gfredericks	or equivalently generate a graph data structure by walking up to N steps from the origin
18:35	gfredericks	s/equivalently/even better/
18:36	gfredericks	I guess there's slightly more information present than in a regular graph; i.e., the neighbors of a vertex have a sort-of-ordering ("clockwise")
18:37	TimMc	gfredericks: Well, just looking at that diagram, canonical paths could be hard.
18:38	gfredericks	yes. :) I've had this problem in my head for a month at least.
18:38	TimMc	up,right is the same as right,up
18:39	tomoj	this is apparently why you can't use a zipper
18:39	tomoj	I guess there would be two important directions, down and right
18:40	gfredericks	o_O?
18:40	clojurebot	joyofclojure is http://joyofclojure.com/
18:40	gfredericks	clojurebot: thanks man
18:40	clojurebot	I'm no man, and she's no lady!
18:40	tomoj	I mean you can generate all the vertices with down and right, right? you might call down 'out'
18:41	Bodil	seangrove: Released! https://clojars.org/org.bodil/pylon/versions/0.2.0
18:41	tomoj	and right 'clockwise'
18:41	seangrove	Bodil: Awesome :)
18:41	gfredericks	tomoj: hmmm...you'd still have redundancy. But maybe there is always a unique shortest path?
18:41	seangrove	I've about three more pages of javascript to convert over to pylons and then I can test it out
18:42	gfredericks	tomoj: you're talking about traversing squares, right? not vertices?
18:42	tomoj	vertices
18:42	tomoj	I'm probably confused
18:42	gfredericks	I'm always confused when I'm thinking about this.
18:43	tomoj	#(-> % out out right right) would just be a noop
18:43	TimMc	gfredericks: Well, this version of canonical paths is probably too complicated: http://i.imgur.com/nvnBiGs.jpg
18:43	gfredericks	tomoj: then I definitely don't know what you're talking about
18:44	josteink	Bodil: out of curiousity... in what cases would be using a library like that?
18:45	augustl	I'm about to implement a "with-reste" type macro that yields an object and ensures it gets a proper teardown via a try/finally, etc. Is there a better way to do this, such as implementing some kind of interface so I can reuse with-open, or something like that?
18:45	gfredericks	TimMc: yeah; I can't tell what's going on there
18:45	josteink	where caused you to see the need and go for it? :)
18:45	gfredericks	augustl: so your issue is that "proper teardown" =/= (.close ob)?
18:45	Bodil	josteink: When you want to deal with heavily class based JS APIs - my use cases were Ace and Backbone.
18:45	TimMc	gfredericks: The idea was to always move forward along either of the middle two options when arriving at a vertex, but that leaves some vertices out, so I was trying to find a way to jump sideways sometimes.
18:46	augustl	gfredericks: not really, currently it's (teardown ob), and ob is a map, and I do stuff with entires in the map
18:46	augustl	gfredericks: perhaps I could somehow implement it so all that stuff happens in a .close method
18:46	raylu	hi. i'm fairly new and i had some style questions. is it normal to use let immediately inside a defn like this? https://pastee.org/q9uvj
18:46	gfredericks	TimMc: I thought of that but the three green paths near the top-right seemed to contradict the idea
18:46	augustl	raylu: very normal yeah
18:47	Bodil	augustl: Methods are smelly, you should go ahead and make your macro imo. :)
18:47	augustl	raylu: doto is perhaps better though
18:47	augustl	Bodil: but, but, reuse!
18:47	josteink	Bodil: ah. backbone. fair enough. just barely looked into that, but never got going.
18:47	raylu	augustl: i'm only doing two things to mac, though, and one of them is inside the let
18:48	augustl	raylu: ah, misread it
18:48	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: haha https://www.refheap.com/paste/e5c5bca04d7b7206367c03f4e
18:48	raylu	augustl: ok. thanks for confirming :D
18:49	Bodil	josteink: Don't take that as an endorsement, Backbone was just my obvious test case - wouldn't use it myself. :)
18:49	augustl	raylu: your indentation is _very_ unconventional, though
18:50	amalloy	raylu: yes, the code is fine, but the whitespace is very different from what anyone else would do
18:50	raylu	yeah, i noticed. i don't understand why the other is more common. i'm used to this because it let's me move entire lines around easily
18:50	TimMc	gfredericks: Right, but those sprout from a side-path, so that's not too surprising. :-/
18:50	augustl	raylu: you don't use paredit mode with emacs, apparently :)
18:51	TimMc	Damn this is hard.
18:51	amalloy	raylu: https://gist.github.com/b754aa03bb81749c86d1, for reference
18:51	TimMc	gfredericks: Have you already checked for coordinate systems for hyperbolic spaces?
18:51	gfredericks	yeah; it's tricksy
18:52	amalloy	and yeah, it's harder to move around entire lines this way, but...moving around entire lines is just an indication that your editor isn't helping you out: you should be focused more on moving around sexps
18:52	gfredericks	TimMc: my current thought is that there are two/four kinds of relationships between two vertices that are two hops apart
18:53	TimMc	gfredericks: There might be something generalizable from this: http://i.imgur.com/0YWlhvB.jpg
18:53	TimMc	gfredericks: State machines. :-)
18:53	gfredericks	(sharp-right a b) (dull-right a b) (sharp-right b a) (dull-right b a)
18:53	gfredericks	well insert a c as the second arg in all of those
18:54	gfredericks	(c being the intermediate vertex)
18:54	gfredericks	that might give you the language to express the geometric...shape of the thing
18:55	gfredericks	in any case I'm running out for a few hours. If you win any fields medals let me know.
18:56	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: sweet
18:57	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: mean execution time is about 3 us. a bit slower than Apache Commons probably, but it's probably viable for one-off calculations
18:59	gfredericks	TimMc: just kidding I'm still here. Even if you can get a canonical path, implementing a `neighbors` function doesn't seem straightforward? but maybe it would be
18:59	gfredericks	two neighbors could have arbitrarily different paths; but it might still be easy
19:05	augustl	oh hey, this is the first time I wrote a macro and it worked as I expected the first time I ran it.
19:06	ivaraasen	augustl: congrats
19:06	TimMc	gfredericks: What would be nice would be a graphics program where I can draw lines and color squares and then drag the hyperbolic space to recenter it... but that would probably require having a coordinate system. :-P
19:08	S11001001	this stuff is pretty funny: [System.Diagnostics.CodeAnalysis.SuppressMessage("Microsoft.Naming", "CA1709:IdentifiersShouldBeCasedCorrectly")]
19:09	S11001001	https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr/blob/master/Clojure/Clojure/Lib/RT.cs#L1343
19:10	amalloy	S11001001: CA1709:IdentifiersSHOULDbecaseCoRRectly
19:13	S11001001	CA42:SuppressingWarningsShouldntBeSuchABloodyChore
19:14	S11001001	,(take 10 (repeat [42, 84]))
19:14	clojurebot	([42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] ...)
19:16	gfredericks	TimMc: that's one of my end goals actually
19:17	hyPiRion	,(repeat 10 [42 84])
19:17	clojurebot	([42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] ...)
19:17	TimMc	gfredericks: I see.
19:18	TimMc	gfredericks: Anyway, congratulations. You've successfully nerd-sniped me and my wife.
19:19	TimMc	"For God's sake, please give it up. Fear it no less than the sensual passion, because it, too, may take up all your time and deprive you of your health, peace of mind and happiness in life." -- Wolfgang Bolyai urging his son János Bolyai to give up work on hyperbolic geometry.
19:19	gfredericks	haha
19:22	gfredericks	it bothers me that the lines in that diagram are straight
19:24	technomancy	S11001001: wow, talk about boilerplate
19:25	S11001001	I think someone has funny ideas about "correctly"
19:25	S11001001	what it means, that is
19:26	S11001001	I take it back; it might be fair, I don't know anything about the C# developer community.
19:26	S11001001	We certainly don't put up with any nonsense-not-like-this.
19:26	amalloy	indeed. the C# guys like PublicMethods to have UpperCamelCase
19:27	S11001001	I know the stdlib is like that
19:27	josteink	S11001001: as a .net developer, the main reason I do JVM-based clojure is that clojure-clr seems all dead :)
19:27	S11001001	josteink: dmiller seems to well keep up with it
19:27	cbp`	I'm unsure what to put in public pgp when registering to clojars, since the public key is in binary
19:28	S11001001	cbp`: use --armor option to gpg
19:28	josteink	cbp`: the public key has a ascii fingerprint of sorts though
19:29	josteink	you should be able to get gpg to export the public key, in an ascii-ish format
19:29	cbp`	thank you
19:30	TimMc	--enarmor
19:30	TimMc	I think
19:30	TimMc	gfredericks: I think I'm more used to seeing this as fours of pentagons, not fives of squares.
19:33	ThatOneGuy	hola yall. I know this is probably somewhere on the web, but I thought it would be easier to ask here. What is the difference between ` (backquote) and ' (single quote) in clojure? and more specifically in macros?
19:35	S11001001	ThatOneGuy: ' is the true quote (nothing evalled); ` is syntax sugar for a thing that is not that. Neither changes behavior in macros.
19:36	hyPiRion	,`(vector ~(+ 1 2) ~@(vector :a :b :c)) ; example of backquote
19:36	clojurebot	(clojure.core/vector 3 :a :b :c)
19:36	S11001001	ThatOneGuy: any attempt to rehash all the ` features here would almost certainly miss something.
19:36	hyPiRion	,'(vector ~(+ 1 2) ~@(vector :a :b :c)) ; normal quote
19:36	clojurebot	(vector (clojure.core/unquote (+ 1 2)) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing (vector :a :b :c)))
19:37	ThatOneGuy	"for a thing that is not that." what do you mean by this? I get the rest of your answer though.
19:37	S11001001	ThatOneGuy: a thing that is not the true quote
19:38	ThatOneGuy	so ` backquote does more expansion than a regular quote? (evals the unquote function and the unquote-splicing)
19:39	ThatOneGuy	or allows for more expanded unquoting
19:39	hyPiRion	ThatOneGuy: As a start, yes. Also notice that ##`(vector ...) returns clojure.core/vector instead of just vector
19:39	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/vector ...)
19:40	hyPiRion	To top it all off, symbols can be appended with a # to create gensyms
19:40	ThatOneGuy	so fully qualifies function names?
19:40	hyPiRion	ThatOneGuy: Yes
19:40	raylu	ok. so... what does :cost do? https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc
19:40	hyPiRion	,`(let [foo# 100] (+ foo# 999))
19:40	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [foo__79__auto__ 100] (clojure.core/+ foo__79__auto__ 999))
19:41	amalloy	it's just a column in his sql table, raylu
19:41	ThatOneGuy	So when creating DSLs with macros, backquote is better. and when you want a raw list for data use single quote?
19:41	hyPiRion	That's the crash course of macros, I think.
19:42	hyPiRion	ThatOneGuy: Yes, that's the standard. Though amalloy could probably tell you how often you should write macros.
19:42	raylu	amalloy: suddenly, the maps part of the cheatsheet makes a lot more sense
19:42	amalloy	who, me?
19:42	hyPiRion	Anyone else named amalloy here?
19:42	raylu	i mean i read (:key my-map) → ( get my-map :key)
19:43	raylu	but i had no idea what it meant until you said that, amalloy
19:49	tomoj	gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1001/#(52)
19:50	tomoj	seen that deck already? pretty neat
19:50	augustl	raylu: also, fyi, it's not a macro, :key is actually a function
19:50	josteink	raylu: you should read the joy of clojure
19:50	augustl	(inc josteink)
19:50	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:50	josteink	it will walk you trough lots of these things in a very enlightening way
19:51	josteink	I think clojure is pretty straight forward, except when its not
19:51	josteink	but one of the parts of clojure where small aspects have a big impact in clojure is collections
19:52	josteink	and the joy of clojure will walk you through them pretty thoroughly and good
19:52	ThatOneGuy	lol "clojure is pretty straight forward, except when its not" nothing else is like this in the entire world. /s
19:53	josteink	well
19:53	josteink	tell me I'm wrong :P
19:53	josteink	I dare you :D
19:55	raylu	is == the same as = except only for nums?
19:58	seangrove	Bodil: Slightly confused from some errors here
19:58	seangrove	If I see: goog.base(this, goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL,
19:59	seangrove	in the closure docs, should I be calling (super this, goog.ui.Con....), or just (super goog.ui.Con...) ?
19:59	seangrove	Looking at the macro, it looks like you automatically put in the "this"
20:00	Bodil	seangrove: The super macro takes the arguments for the superclass method. It's designed so you won't ever have to worry about passing this around.
20:01	Bodil	seangrove: Oh, and you can't specify a superclass, it always picks the first one in the prototype chain with the method you're calling.
20:02	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: just got arrseq working, which is doseq, but for arrays. could be nice if you need to have side-effects only.
20:02	seangrove	Bodil: The superclass is chosen from the :extends argument, right?
20:02	seangrove	I'm not looking to choose the superclass, just trying to translate this closure ui custom component code, which is not particularly nice
20:03	Bodil	seangrove: Yeah, Foo :extends Bar causes goog.interits(Foo, Bar), essentially.
20:03	Bodil	goog.inherits*
20:03	seangrove	Yeah, thought so
20:05	Bodil	seangrove: goog.base(this, superclass, args) translates simply to (super args)
20:07	Bodil	seangrove: uh, no, that's not goog.base's signature... but you get the idea :)
20:07	seangrove	So, goog.base(this, goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL, ChecklistRenderer.getInstance()); => (super goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL (.getInstance ChecklistRenderer))
20:07	Bodil	Yeah, looks right.
20:07	seangrove	Alright, will figure out what's wrong from here then
20:07	devn	I could use a spot of help with luminus. I am deploying to heroku and want to connect my app to an elasticsearch addon. It seems like it's not doing it.
20:07	seangrove	I can't believe what a horrible nightmare extending goog.ui is
20:08	devn	yogthos\|away: ^^
20:08	augustl	seangrove: for what it's worth, I spent 3 months writing something in Google Closure I then spent 1 week rewriting in AngularJS, and it was much stabler, and even had more features
20:08	seangrove	Heh, this is our re-write from jQuery ;)
20:08	seangrove	With cljs, augustl ?
20:08	devn	I call (connect! (System/getenv "BONSAI_URL")) in myapp.handler/init
20:09	augustl	seangrove: no just plain JS
20:09	augustl	seangrove: the biggest pain was updating the UI after initially creating the DOM elements (or goog.ui.Components)
20:09	devn	I run my server on heroku using: lein with-profile production ring server
20:09	devn	I have :ring {:handler myapp.handler/app} in my project.clj
20:10	gfredericks	TimMc: I think the two are dual
20:10	augustl	with angularjs, everything is lazy, so it doesn't matter if you do some operation the 1st or 2nd or 97th time
20:10	josteink	quite a few comitts the last few days ;)
20:12	augustl	seangrove: angularjs is probably not a good fit for clojurescript, though. angular is _all in_ mutability
20:13	raylu	so, (= a b) seems to do a java ==, not a java .equals (right now, a and b are byte-arrays)
20:13	devn	yogthos\|away: nevermind, needed to add :init to project.clj
20:13	raylu	but the documentation says otherwise...
20:13	devn	yogthos\|away: it might be a good idea to include that by default in the project.clj
20:13	seangrove	augustl: Heh, maybe for the next rewrite then :)
20:13	seangrove	I've found closure to be very fast, which is nice
20:14	seangrove	But not a whole lot that's nice beyond that
20:14	seangrove	Reasonably stable
20:14	augustl	raylu: seems to boil down to clojure.lang.Util/equiv, whatever that might be
20:14	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: and now we've got destructive map! for in-place mapping. fun
20:14	augustl	seangrove: every time I work with raw DOM elements, I wish I had Google Closure there. I like to think of goog.ui.Component as DOM elements on steroids (lifecycle, better event handling, etc)
20:15	raylu	is there a simple way to compare byte arrays?
20:15	augustl	raylu: for byte equality?
20:15	raylu	yes
20:15	cshell	raylu: You'd have to write a for loop I'd imagine
20:15	technomancy	compare seqs over them
20:16	raylu	T.T
20:16	augustl	raylu: here's the Java code for = https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L24
20:16	cshell	yeah, or that :)
20:16	augustl	it's a call to .equals it seems
20:16	josteink	raylu: the problem with equality of complex entities is unfortunately not entirely eliminated in clojure ;)
20:16	technomancy	byte arrays are mutable; you can't have two different mutable objects that are equal
20:16	josteink	raylu: or what technomancy said
20:17	technomancy	for background I highly recommend reading "Equal Rights for Functional Objects"
20:17	josteink	hah
20:17	josteink	is that book or a blog post?
20:18	technomancy	it's a paper ಠ_ಠ
20:18	technomancy	clojurebot: equal rights for functional objects
20:18	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:18	josteink	oooh. now I feel so unacademical
20:18	technomancy	haha
20:18	augustl	papers should have boring titles :S
20:18	technomancy	s'ok; it's just one of my favourite rant topics
20:18	raylu	oh. are you telling me that .equals wouldn't have worked in java either?
20:18	technomancy	especially when there are CLers present
20:18	technomancy	raylu: I'm saying Java's notion of equality is not particularly useful
20:19	augustl	raylu: it appears that = just ends up calling .equals unless they're numbers, so yeah
20:19	augustl	but I'm not sure
20:19	technomancy	it can be used in some limited circumstances, but "do these different objects happen to have the same value during this exact instant" is not the kind of thing you should base a language around
20:20	augustl	and is "this exact instant" atomic for things like byte arrays? :)
20:20	cshell	Thanks for the link, technomancy - I always like to find things like this
20:20	augustl	would be nice if = locked!
20:20	josteink	hahahaha
20:21	josteink	I cant foresee the amount of bugs THAT would cause
20:21	seangrove	technomancy: Why when CLers are present?
20:21	josteink	seangrove: I think CLers are rumoured to be the most pedantic of all programmers alive :P
20:21	technomancy	seangrove: because that paper is written by someone who really wants to like CL but is honest about its deep-seated shortcomingsn
20:22	seangrove	technomancy: It has (nearly) no shortcomings
20:22	josteink	I happened to end up at a news years party with a CLer
20:22	seangrove	How could it? The spec is ~1500pages long :P
20:22	josteink	he tried to convince me a seperate namespace for functions was a good thing
20:22	josteink	on new years eve
20:22	seangrove	josteink: I like that feature
20:23	technomancy	CLers like to imagine that because their language can expand to include anything that it possesses unlimited power, but for some reason they don't understand that certain types of power (immutability, sane equality, GC, etc) are derived from giving up harmful semantics.
20:23	josteink	I so do not
20:23	seangrove	But I didn't see it as particularly useful
20:23	technomancy	lisp-2 is really wretched in elisp
20:23	seangrove	I didn't know elisp was a lisp-2
20:23	technomancy	makes most higher-order functions so cumbersome to work with that the imperative equivalent ends up being shorter =\
20:24	seangrove	I always use it as though it's not
20:26	gfredericks	tomoj: this presentation is. good.
20:27	josteink	atleast pretty close ;)
20:28	seangrove	I feel like drinking after all this horrible goog.ui stuff
20:29	josteink	you know
20:29	josteink	I spedn way too much time on HN
20:30	josteink	but one of the discussions I read there was about CLJS
20:30	josteink	and the consensus seemed (among many) to be that CLJS really doesnt have that fun, sparkling, dynamic nature which people usually associate with clojure
20:30	technomancy	gfredericks: not even about the good old days?
20:30	gfredericks	technomancy: first I've heard of them
20:31	josteink	and I tend to agree
20:31	technomancy	gfredericks: everyone says it's all gone downhill
20:31	josteink	with CLJS you spend way too much time dealing with bullshit
20:31	josteink	things which are not your primary concern
20:31	ivaraasen	oh, the good old days, when no one ate quiche and Fortran seemed like Python in comparison to anything else.
20:31	technomancy	but I don't know whether the good old days were just "back before I was able tell whether I was wasting my time on useless discussions" or not
20:32	josteink	heh
20:32	josteink	the only place which hasnt gone downhill is irc
20:32	josteink	because it has actually had a decrease in amount of users ;)
20:32	technomancy	freenode is the best social network; no contest
20:33	gfredericks	they never send me emails asking for a photo of my birth certificate
20:33	josteink	haha
20:33	gfredericks	...yet
20:33	technomancy	actually have been musing on ways in which I could replace my twitter usage with freenode
20:34	raylu	technomancy: bitlbee will.. sort of do that for you
20:34	josteink	Ive decided that I dont -need- twitter
20:34	technomancy	twitter is great for broadcast, but everyone I actually want to have conversations with is on freenode
20:34	technomancy	raylu: actually I'm thinking of the other direction
20:34	angusiguess	You could limit every irc message to 140 characters.
20:34	josteink	I just open a twitter tab and post stuff if I want to spam it :)
20:34	technomancy	I want my freenode conversations to be accessible on my mobile
20:34	angusiguess	Or use more octothorpes.
20:35	josteink	technomancy: you could always put up a irc XMPP proxy into a gtalk account
20:35	josteink	technomancy: but that would probably make your (android) cellphone go crazy :P
20:35	technomancy	so they can fill the "checking up on useless information" gap that I currently use twitter for; more of a compulsive need to gather data
20:35	gfredericks	tomoj: this is maybe the most amazing thing I've seen in months or something
20:35	amalloy	technomancy: surely your mobile has an irc client. so you must mean something else i'm not quite following
20:36	technomancy	amalloy: mobile IRC clients are incredibly poor
20:36	josteink	raylu: bitlbee works. but is not very friendly for mobile
20:36	technomancy	I don't necessarily want to focus on a real-time conversation
20:36	technomancy	I'd rather have summarization and search features
20:36	amalloy	mine's not bad, but i suppose i don't really ask for much given that my desktop client is pretty poor
20:37	ivaraasen	I use way too much mail
20:37	josteink	I've stopped using desktop irc clients ages ago
20:37	josteink	I like having a session running anytime, anywhere
20:38	technomancy	amalloy: you don't use ERC?
20:38	josteink	which I can attach to when I need it :)
20:38	amalloy	no. i use erc for editing code. shameful, i know
20:39	amalloy	er, emacs
20:39	gfredericks	man that was almost interesting
20:39	technomancy	was going to say, that's a neat trick
20:39	ivaraasen	anyone interested in looking at some utility stuff for doing primitive numerics in Clojure? (Flop-ish)
20:39	amalloy	heh, yes. any clojure program i can't fit in an irc message isn't worth writing
20:40	technomancy	/msg ~/src/leiningen/project.clj sed -i s/clj-http "0.5.7"/clj-http "0.5.8"/
20:40	josteink	anyway
20:40	josteink	might be coincidence
20:40	josteink	might be something else
20:41	josteink	but your (final) release of leiningen 2.0.0 seemed to have woken up projects around the clojure-verse
20:41	josteink	:)
20:41	ThatOneGuy	another quick question. What does a solitary keyword value do a function body? e.g. (defn something [func] :fn func)
20:42	amalloy	nothing
20:42	josteink	nothing
20:42	josteink	it checks if that func is a map which contains a key with the keyword :fn, and in that case retrieves the value associated with that key
20:42	josteink	and in all other cases it is falsey
20:44	jeremyheiler	jsteink, i think you're assuming there are parens around ":fn func"
20:44	josteink	I realized that as well. afterwards
20:45	jeremyheiler	heh
20:45	ivaraasen	josteink: by the way, you're Scandinavian?
20:46	ThatOneGuy	(defmacro component [name params & r] `(defn ~name ~params ~@r))
20:46	ThatOneGuy	(component renderable [func] :fn func)
20:46	ThatOneGuy	does that help give some context?
20:47	josteink	ivaraasen: obviously.
20:47	josteink	and you stick out like a sore thumb :P
20:49	ThatOneGuy	[(renderable `(custom-render-func))] so would that be putting the keyword :fn and func inside the vector?
20:49	josteink	yes
20:49	jeremyheiler	ThatOneGuy, invoking renderable will just return the value of func because it is the last expression in the function body.
20:50	josteink	or that :P
20:50	ThatOneGuy	so the function would be added to the vector and not the keyword
20:52	josteink	jeremyheiler: wouldnt it just return the function as is? since its never really invoked?
20:52	josteink	I mean not to be nitpicking details, but this is definitely a details type question ;)
20:52	ivaraasen	josteink: I get PMs all the time asking me if I'm Turkish for some reason
20:52	jeremyheiler	the fact that the value of func is a function is by happenstance, if the value of func is a function, then yes the function will be return.
20:54	jeremyheiler	ThatOneGuy, [(user/custom-render-func)] is what your vector would look like
20:54	jeremyheiler	That is because '(custom-render-func) is the last argument supplied to renderable.
20:57	ThatOneGuy	ok. I'm going through the game [ChromaShift](https://github.com/ibdknox/ChromaShift), and it looks like he is putting a :fn (custom-render-func) in the vector because he grabs it out to render each entity, so I must be missing something
21:01	jeremyheiler	That compnent macro is different than yours.
21:01	ThatOneGuy	yeah, I was trying to translate it to regular clojure, because I don't want to use clojurescript.
21:01	TimMc	gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1101/webtalk.html#%2821%29 and the next few slides may be interesting.
21:02	TimMc	gfredericks: I'm not sure that slide actually indicates a non-overlapping enumeration scheme, though.
21:02	jeremyheiler	TheOneGuy, right, so you can see that ultimately a string and keyword are passed into the js-obj function.
21:03	gfredericks	TimMc: I saw that; doesn't suggest anything to me though :/
21:03	jeremyheiler	along with whatever happens to be in r.
21:04	ThatOneGuy	yeah. and in js-obj it calls (apply gobject/create keyvals)
21:04	jeremyheiler	so if name="foo" and r=(:x :y), then the function is (cljs.core/js-obj "name" :foo :x :y)
21:05	gfredericks	it just occurred to me that (repeat x) could return a special ISeq for which rest returns itself
21:05	ThatOneGuy	yeah. then gobject/create probably creates a javascript object from those keyvals and that is what is stored in the vector
21:06	jeremyheiler	probably
21:06	ThatOneGuy	so I guess the thing I need to understand to translate this better is the letc macro, as that is what is used to get then renderable component out of an entity
21:06	TimMc	gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1101/img/dod_tiling_01.jpg :-D
21:07	gfredericks	cube-like dodecahedrons!
21:09	gfredericks	TimMc: I think I might like the pentagon version better, at least for playing Go
21:12	jeremyheiler	ThatOneGuy, I guess that depends on what pairs is. It's basically doing some stuff to create a bunch of bindings for a let, which puts all those bindings in context of the body.
21:14	ThatOneGuy	](letc e [rend :renderable], so the pairs (I think) describe the let binding name to use and keyword to grab from the underlying datastructure
21:14	ThatOneGuy	ignore the first ] idk why that is there
21:18	seangrove	Bodil: Is pylon aware of the difference in calling super in instance methods versus prototype methods?
21:20	bbloom	Raynes: I can only assume that you want me to ask this:
21:20	jeremyheiler	ThatOneGuy, that sounds legit, but I really don't know what js/Game.as is.
21:20	bbloom	Raynes: "What's updoc?"
21:23	amalloy	bbloom: yes, that is why he named it updoc
21:23	bbloom	amalloy: clearly :-)
21:23	bbloom	i looked at it, so id ont even want to know the answer to that question
21:23	ThatOneGuy	so do you know how I would convert that to regular clojure? where I could add a :renderable-fn keyword and value to the vector so I can grab the function later?
21:24	jeremyheiler	You would at least need to have a map that maps a keyword to function. If you want to get any fancier, that's your choice.
21:25	jeremyheiler	Alas, I really don't know the reasoning behind all of this, so I can't really help you with the design.
21:27	ThatOneGuy	true. In his game, he is using something called the component-entity-system (CES) model for modelling game entities in a functional language. and I am trying to convert that to regular clojure to use in a game project of mine.
21:27	seangrove	pylon seems to die if called from a prototype's method ('this' is undefined in that case, so super won't work properly)
21:28	ThatOneGuy	I like the elegance of entities being defined as [:player [(component-1) (component-2)]] but it looks like I need a more verbose solution like [:player {:renderer (renderable-component) …}]
21:29	jeremyheiler	ThatOneGuy, perhaps a better approach would be to figure out what all the cljs.core/* and js/* functions do and keep the rest as-is.
21:30	jeremyheiler	Unless you really want to get into all the details first.
21:32	ThatOneGuy	thanks. gotta head home. brb
21:41	Raynes	amalloy: Good work on updoc's name. Didn't take long until people caught on.
21:41	amalloy	did you announce it recently or something?
21:42	Raynes	amalloy: I just pushed it to Github yesterday is all. I didn't 'announce' it. It's like the most useless thing I've ever made.
21:51	ivaraasen	Raynes: it's pretty sweet to see how easy it's to do stuff like this in Clojure, though.
22:03	rl	o.O
22:03	rl	think i found a bug in the interpreter
22:03	rl	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: template-list in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)
22:03	rl	erm
22:04	rl	=> (agility.template/eval-template-list template-list (["Somestr" "Hello" "(inc 1)"] ["Somestr" "Hello2" "(inc 2)"]))
22:04	rl	it ignores the eval- part
22:04	rl	if i do eval2 then
22:04	rl	(agility.template/eval2-template-list template-list (["Somestr" "Hello" "(inc 1)"] ["Somestr" "Hello2" "(inc 2)"]))
22:04	rl	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: agility.template/eval2-template-list, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)
22:04	jeremyheiler	You sure it's not referencing the template-list right after it?
22:06	rl	yeah, hold on igot to dig deeper..i'm not using macros here or anything
22:07	jeremyheiler	The error indicates that "template-list" does not exist. If you type a random symbol into your repl, you'll get the same "unable to resolve symbol" compiler exception.
22:07	rl	jeremyheiler: the problem is i was using (eval-template-list ...)
22:08	rl	it should say eval-templte-list dosen't exist, not template-list
22:08	rl	oh
22:08	rl	<_<
22:08	rl	sorry
22:08	rl	lol
22:09	rl	i see what your saying, yes my bad lol
22:09	jeremyheiler	heh, no problem ;-)
22:13	yedi	how can I change the current working directory in an nrepl
22:14	yedi	looks like you can't do that in java..? so how can i get nrepl to start with q certain working directory
22:15	cshell	is it setting the java run directory property?
22:17	TimMc	gfredericks: Funny you should say that, I got overloaded with hyperbolic geometry and Alex suggested playing Go.
22:17	cshell	is it the user.dir property?
22:20	yedi	i solved my issue by running lein repl from the terminal and running nrepl in emacs (instead of nrepl-jack-in)
22:28	Raynes	There is no interpreter.
22:51	yedi	does anyone know of data sets similar to http://wordnet.princeton.edu/wordnet/
22:56	cshell	Like these? http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/
22:57	cshell	wordnet is in there, so maybe that's what you're looking for
23:05	dabd	can someone help me with the following macro? https://gist.github.com/4646206
23:06	dabd	it generates a function but when i call it like this: ((parse-stack-interval "9.0,9.7-10.8,19.1+") 19.1) it returns false
23:06	dabd	however if i call directly the result of the macroexpansion (macroexpand-1 '(parse-stack-interval "9.0,9.7-10.8,19.1+")) it returns true
23:14	yedi	oh yessss, just remembered i can leverage java libraries
23:42	mmarczyk	dnolen: ping
23:45	amalloy	dabd: there's no parse-stack-interval function in that paste
23:49	amalloy	but assuming you meant interval-test-fn, it's because 19.1 is a double, and (Float/parseFloat "19.1") is a float: ##(>= 19.1 (float 19.1))
23:49	lazybot	⇒ false
23:49	amalloy	when you take the macroexpanded output and type it back in, it goes through the reader again, which parses the function body as doubles, not floats
23:51	dabd	amalloy: i just renamed things a bit it's the interval-test-fn macro
23:52	dabd	so i should parse the string as a double?
23:52	amalloy	shrug it depends what you want, probably. mostly you should just be careful not to compare doubles with floats
23:53	dabd	ok thanks