#clojure – 2013-01-25

2013-01-25

00:01	tomoj	&(#'+ 1 2)
00:01	lazybot	⇒ 3
00:02	rationalrevolt	Doing (+ 1 2) or (#'+ 1 2) gives the same result - but, i'm not seeing whats different
00:03	rationalrevolt	(+ 1 2) would look up the symbol to obtain the var and then invoke it with the arguments
00:04	tomoj	yes, but if you do e.g. (run-jetty handler ...), handler is resolved to #'handler, but the var's value, your handler fn, is passed to run-jetty
00:04	tomoj	if you redef #'handler later, run-jetty will still have the old fn
00:04	rationalrevolt	(#'+ 1 2) expands to ((var +) 1 2) and (var +) is doing a lookup of + each time (#'+ 1 2) is eval'd - is this correct?
00:06	tomoj	when you (run-jetty #'handler ...), the thing passed to run-jetty is the var, not the fn it points to. when the var is invoked as a function it just invokes whichever fn the var currently points to
00:08	rationalrevolt	alright
00:10	rationalrevolt	but, what is it thats happening when i reload the namespace - doesnt my handler get associated to a new var and not the var that was passed to run-jetty earlier?
00:12	amalloy	no, it's the same var with a new value
00:13	rationalrevolt	alright
00:13	rationalrevolt	but, this would only work int the same thread where run-jetty was executed in, correct? i.e. the repl thread
00:14	rationalrevolt	if some other thread was passed the same var, that var wouldn't get refreshed when i reload the namespace on the repl - since its thread-local?
00:16	rationalrevolt	or i may be wrong, since def's update the root binding?
00:18	amalloy	yes, you are wrong
00:23	rl	man, just started in clojure the other day and i'm loving it =)
00:27	brainproxy	tomoj: a workaround seems to be set the "Expires" header to "0" using a piece of middleware
00:27	brainproxy	I tried just about everything else w/ no joy :p
00:28	brainproxy	but I consider it better than sticking a nonce in the client-side logic
02:48	alexbaranosky	hello fellow nerds
02:49	ejackson	good morning, sir.
03:08	AtKaaZ	hey guys, how do you write this in clojure? getStackTraceDepth = Throwable.class.getDeclaredMethod("getStackTraceDepth");
03:12	broquaint	(let [getStackTraceDepth (.getDeclaredMethod (.class Throwable) "getStackTraceDepth")] ...)
03:12	broquaint	I guess.
03:12	broquaint	When in doubt, use the docs - http://clojure.org/java_interop
03:12	AtKaaZ	thing is, I'm getting this: IllegalArgumentException No matching field found: class
03:13	AtKaaZ	do I need an import or something?
03:13	broquaint	What does the your code look like?
03:13	AtKaaZ	,(.class Throwable)
03:13	AtKaaZ	&(.class Throwable)
03:13	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: class for class java.lang.Class
03:16	broquaint	Do you mean getClass? http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Throwable.html
03:16	ChongLi	,(class Throwable)
03:17	ChongLi	&(class Throwable)
03:17	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Class
03:17	AtKaaZ	that makes sense ChongLi
03:19	AtKaaZ	&(.getDeclaredMethod (class Throwable) "getStackTraceDepth" nil)
03:19	lazybot	java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.Class.getStackTraceDepth()
03:19	AtKaaZ	that's what I want, but meh it should work, even if it's package protected method right?
03:20	AtKaaZ	oh wait
03:20	AtKaaZ	&(.getDeclaredMethod Throwable "getStackTraceDepth" nil)
03:20	lazybot	⇒ #<Method private native int java.lang.Throwable.getStackTraceDepth()>
03:20	ChongLi	yeah
03:21	AtKaaZ	lol I failed so badly, thanks guys
03:21	broquaint	np :)
03:21	ChongLi	a class of a class is just a superclass I guess
03:22	AtKaaZ	yeah I guess in java Throwable.class is used to refer to Throwable class :D
03:28	AtKaaZ	what am I missing here: https://gist.github.com/4632766
03:36	juxovec	would you recommend using Clj for ordinary (mostly CRUD) MySQL-driven websites? those websites which are writen in PHP most of the time
03:41	p_l	juxovec: depends what you are really doing
03:41	p_l	If you want to use AJAX-driven tabled display etc., sure
03:41	p_l	except that's for client
03:41	seancorfield	juxovec: I would certainly prefer to use Clojure for such things, compared to PHP, but that's a personal choice
03:41	p_l	now you'll need something on the backend
03:41	p_l	(also, drop MySQL)
03:42	seancorfield	I do a lot of CRUD work with Clojure - with MySQL and with MongoDB
03:44	seancorfield	Does that answer your question juxovec ?
03:45	juxovec	I think it does
03:45	juxovec	there are lots of already done frameworks for PHP which let you get CRUD in maybe 3-4 commands from shell. I am still not sure if there's anything like this for Clj
03:45	seancorfield	I'm slightly biased by virtue of maintaining clojure.java.jdbc, being an active committer on congomongo and having written a convention-based MVC framework for Clojure called FW/1 (Framework One) :)
03:47	seancorfield	I don't like PHP so I wouldn't use it. I'd be more likely to use Groovy/Grails or CFML. Or I'd learn Ruby on Rails. Or just do it in Clojure :)
03:47	seancorfield	If I just wanted a CMS, that's a different question of course (although, again, I probably would not choose PHP).
03:48	p_l	juxovec: those commands aren't that great, especially once you start digging things up
03:49	p_l	for single-command stuff, I'd rather go with Rails, but you need some knowledge outside of DHH's drivel to make best of it
03:49	juxovec	it is still the same question, just s/PHP/Ruby/ or /Python/
03:49	seancorfield	At work we have a mix of CFML for View-Controller and Clojure for Model - we use the JBoss community project Railo for the CFML part
03:50	seancorfield	But we may well build new web apps entirely in Clojure with FW/1...
03:50	seancorfield	for the sort of app we build, CRUD is only a small part of the whole
03:55	juxovec	I got a lead who wants auction server + supply/demand pairing website. significant part of such application is CRUD + users, user management. All those things are already in most MVC frameworks. I really believe Clj can help me in more difficult parts of website but don't know if I'd not lost a lot of the time re-developing things which are already in most of frameworks
03:57	muhoo	juxovec: you coud always hybrid it
03:57	ucb	I was about to suggest ^^^^
04:01	juxovec	you mean some REST/SOAP bridge to connect them?
04:02	ucb	juxovec: not even that; as long as your lang-X MVC framework plays nicely (through the DB say) with the rest of the code you should be fine
04:02	ucb	juxovec: e.g. use rails/django for crud; use clojure for RO stuff in your other more difficult bits of the website
04:07	juxovec	I understand. I think it can work. thx
04:10	AtKaaZ	what is the method for returning first match from a seq?
04:11	clgv	AtKaaZ: you can use some
04:12	clgv	&(some odd? (range 5))
04:12	lazybot	⇒ true
04:12	clgv	ah lol right you hav to write it differently
04:12	clgv	&(some #(when (odd? %) %) (range 5))
04:12	lazybot	⇒ 1
04:12	clgv	otherwise first+filter
04:13	clgv	&(first (filter odd? (range 5)))
04:13	lazybot	⇒ 1
04:13	AtKaaZ	but wasn't there a method already for this?
04:14	AtKaaZ	oh i think it was some, "Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll," since this is the text that I remember (or similar to this) thanks clgv
04:20	ucb	,(findfn [1 2 3 4 5] 2)
04:20	ucb	bleh
04:20	AtKaaZ	thanks broquaint
04:21	broquaint	np :)
04:24	clgv	$findfn odd? (range 5) 1
04:24	lazybot	[]
04:24	clgv	lazybot finds nothing^^
04:25	AtKaaZ	$findfn (range 5) 1
04:25	lazybot	[]
04:26	AtKaaZ	&(first (range 5))
04:26	lazybot	⇒ 0
04:26	AtKaaZ	makes sense then
04:26	AtKaaZ	$findfn (range 5) 0
04:26	lazybot	[]
04:27	AtKaaZ	$findfn '(0 1 2) 0
04:27	lazybot	[]
04:30	clgv	oh that should work
04:30	clgv	$findfn [0 1 2] 0
04:30	lazybot	[clojure.core/first]
04:30	clgv	$findfn odd? [0 2 4 1 3 5]
04:30	clgv	$findfn odd? [0 2 4 1 3 5] 1
04:31	lazybot	[]
04:31	lazybot	[]
04:35	hyPiRion	,(some odd? [0 2 4 1 3 5])
04:37	hyPiRion	Oh well, clojurebot is somehow dead.
04:40	zby	when I run 'lein ring server' I don't get any log output
04:40	zby	like the requests being served
04:40	zby	and the times when it reloads because of a code change
04:40	zby	can I have that?
04:44	clgv	hyPiRion: that returns true only and not the element ;)
05:13	the-kenny	cljs.core.pr_str("äöü")
05:13	the-kenny	""\xE4\xF6\xFC""
05:13	the-kenny	is this by-design (latest clojurescript release)
05:13	the-kenny	?
05:25	hyPiRion	clgv: Yeah, I realized.
05:26	hyPiRion	&(pr-str "äöü")
05:26	lazybot	⇒ "\"äöü\""
05:26	hyPiRion	the-kenny: sounds like a bug-ish
05:26	hyPiRion	unless, well, the webpage doesn't support äöü as characters
05:28	the-kenny	hyPiRion: It must be a regression. we recently updated to lein-cljsbuild 0.3.0 which uses the Clojurescript 1552. Before that, pr-str printed normal unicode characters
05:29	the-kenny	print-str still prints unicode characters
05:45	hyPiRion	the-kenny: sounds somehow like some bug with munging
05:45	hyPiRion	...ish
05:45	hyPiRion	,(munge "äöü!")
05:46	hyPiRion	&(munge "äöü!")
05:46	lazybot	⇒ "äöü_BANG_"
05:59	zby	cemerick - thanks a lot
05:59	zby	unfortunately I am still lost: https://gist.github.com/4633508
06:07	alexnixon	in my application I have an infinite sequence of promises, representing data being delivered to my application asynchronously. The promises are run through a "mapcat" function to produce some output results, which is then run through "doseq" in order to act on the output and force evaluation of the lazy sequences.
06:08	alexnixon	However, I'm finding that it sometimes takes a few minutes before the code attempts to deref a promise which has been delivered (so it seems the doseq isn't forcing evaluation as eagerly as I'd like). Anyone have ideas? Example code here: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8951
06:10	the-kenny	alexnixon: Does the data arrive in sequence? Maybe your first promise isn't the first to get delivered
06:10	alexnixon	the-kenny: no it doesn't - and by design this should cope with it. If a later promise is delivered, the "consuming" code should be still attempting to deref the first one
06:11	alexnixon	the-kenny: and it will block until the first one arrives, at which point it should continue dereffing to consume all delivered data, up until an undelivered promise at which point it blocks
06:13	Chousuke	alexnixon: so what's actually happening instead? it just randomly stops consuming from the sequence?
06:13	Chousuke	are you sure you're delivering all the promises?
06:14	alexnixon	Chousuke: I've littered it with logging statements, and I'm finding the code not entering the "step" function when it should be doing, which (I believe) would by symptomatic of the doseq not forcing the lazy-seq to be realised
06:15	alexnixon	Chousuke: I find that (e.g.) promise 2 gets delivered 2, however only in 1 minute's time (after promises 3,4,5,...., 200 have been delivered), will the code attempt to deref #2
06:16	Chousuke	well, it's hard to tell what's going wrong without seeing the actual code :/
06:18	alexnixon	yeah I can appreciate that, unfortunately the actual code is both confidential and large (there are several of these processing steps built on-top of one another, plus a load of compojure junk to expose this through a REST interface)
06:19	alexnixon	just wondering if there are any laziness "gotchas" that I might be running in to
06:22	alexnixon	it seems to be quite a subtle area, and not-at-all easy to debug when things go wrong
06:25	hyPiRion	alexnixon: Usually I tend to read data into values asap, as closing connections bites you hard when doing laziness
06:26	alexnixon	hyPiRion: yeah I've found that, but in this case the data is being delivered asynchronously over a REST api, so I don't have that problem
06:27	alexnixon	hyPiRion: I suspect my problem is stemming from some subtle aspect of clojure's lazy-evaluation semantics, but I'm at a loss as to where
06:29	hyPiRion	alexnixon: Do you have to do it with promises?
06:30	hyPiRion	Put in an agent and an atom or so instead.
06:31	alexnixon	hyPiRion: no, it's just a very clean abstraction which magically handles serialising incoming data (which may arrive out-of-order)
06:31	hyPiRion	okay.
06:32	alexnixon	the downside is that laziness is a subtle beast :-(
06:32	hyPiRion	Maybe Lamina could be a nice replacement?
06:33	hyPiRion	or, humm, that's not entirely correct either.
06:33	alexnixon	I've only heard of it in passing - I'll take a look
06:33	hyPiRion	(or maybe it is? I've not really looked that much at Lamina, but I remember some talk I watched by the author which stated that it somehow solved out-of-order passing somehow)
06:34	no7hing	afaik lamina only guarantees order if events already arrive ordered - but don't nail me on that
06:35	hyPiRion	no7hing: Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, but I suddenly remembered a talk from the author where he solved that issue I think.
06:35	no7hing	do you have a link on that one?
06:36	hyPiRion	I'll try to find it, programming in C++ isn't that funny anymore.
06:36	no7hing	either way, a post in the google group should give you clarity: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/aleph-lib
06:36	no7hing	(the aleph group is also for lamina)
06:39	no7hing	hmm, actually pipelines could help here, as they only advance to the next step when the current one has been realized
06:39	no7hing	lamina pipelines that is
06:39	hyPiRion	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Event-Driven-Programming-in-Clojure
06:40	no7hing	hyperion: thanks
06:40	hyPiRion	Anything to keep me away from C++ programming :)
06:40	no7hing	s/hyperion/hypirion/g
06:40	no7hing	baha
06:44	no7hing	i'am wondering which talk i was watching while zach was presenting lamina
07:21	equalsdanny	hi guys. does anybody know of Swing wrappers for Clojure?
07:21	progo	equalsdanny: seesaw must be the best
08:56	equalsdanny	progo: Thanks for the help! I've got one more question although it rather JVM-related. Is there anyway to get call stack dynamic? I need that for my recursion algorithms. I am aware of tail recursion however it limits the expressiveness of the code by far.
09:01	hyPiRion	equalsdanny: you dynamic stack size?
09:01	hyPiRion	/s/you//
09:01	hyPiRion	You can specify the size of the JVM stack, though I think that's the only thing you can do
09:02	hyPiRion	otherwise you'd have to make a stack and use it in a for loop yourself, since the JVM cannot really optimize it that much
09:04	dnolen	does nrepl.el macroexpand actually work?
09:04	TimMc	hyPiRion: I'm thinking of doing that with my tree-walker.
09:06	zby	how can I know if lein reloaded the ring application after a code change?
09:06	zby	I run 'lein ring server' - but it does not output any info about the code reload
09:14	cvkem	Hi, I've got a clojure plugin for a web-applications that works fine under clojure 1.3 and sometimes fails under Clojure 1.4 as clojure.RT is not found. Did something change in the class-loading mechanism between 1.3 and 1.4?
09:17	equalsdanny	cvkem: What framework are you using for wepapp?
09:19	cvkem	Hi equalsdanny: It is a plugin for the pentaho BI-server. I think it is a framework they build themselves. I'm setting the context-classloader myself (and restore it after leaving the plugin)
09:53	TimMc	hyPiRion: Perhaps one could write a defn-deep that inserts a loop and rewrites all explicit recursive calls as recur.
09:58	TimMc	Random thought: If a SaaS company expects to have exponential growth, does that mean that all their public-facing algorithms have to have logarithmic (or better) time and space complexity?
10:01	nDuff	TimMc: Depends on the revenue model. If you charge linear with space consumed, for instance...
10:02	TimMc	heh
10:02	nDuff	...if your revenue model doesn't scale with your costs, though, it's a problem. Also, ops can get expensive if you didn't build that organization / processes to scale.
10:02	TimMc	I was thinking more about just the strain on databases.
10:03	nDuff	shrug. In the case where I've been there, our datastores were shardable.
10:03	nDuff	...mind you, we hit limits on the underlying software, and were the literal biggest customer for several of our providers (and thus did a _lot_ of "debugging in production" for folks whose QA organizations couldn't simulate our traffic levels)...
10:04	nDuff	...but more customers than you can deal with is not a bad problem to have unless you designed yourself into a serious corner.
10:04	TimMc	Designing yourself into a serious corner is pretty common. :-/
10:06	TimMc	So yeah, if sharding is an option, I suppose your algorithms don't have to scale quite as well. I was thinking of the cases where the algorithm's "n" is actually the "n" of the business size, but now that I think about it, maybe that doesn't happen very often.
10:23	nDuff	TimMc: I've never seen a SaaS business be successful enough to have "too many customers" problems if they couldn't shard. I _have_ seen one that tried to go SaaS without being able to shard, and the first really big customer choked them (followed by a lawsuit resulting in that customer getting a lot of equity and a board seat).
10:23	nDuff	s/resulting in/settled by/
10:29	augustl	nDuff: haha, nice outcome of the lawsuit
10:30	augustl	nDuff: what was the case for unshardable SaaS? I don't think I've seen any SaaS that isn't customer/user scoped
10:31	nDuff	augustl: ...customer-scoped, but they were a huge customer.
10:32	augustl	nDuff: ah
10:32	augustl	they had a "MAXIMUM" plan with unlimited everything? :)
10:33	TimMc	I confess I still don't know what quity is.
10:33	TimMc	*equity
10:33	nDuff	TimMc: Ownership
10:33	llasram	Isn't that when you're prone to leave online venues? e-quit-y
10:34	augustl	equity = owning stock, that's about it, right?
10:34	nDuff	augustl: nod.
10:34	TimMc	Got it, imaginary numbers.
10:35	augustl	well, that depends on whose stock :)
10:39	tomoj	&((fnil identity 42) nil)
10:39	lazybot	⇒ 42
10:39	tomoj	oh
10:40	tomoj	fighting with core for names always screws me up, takes me forever to realize e.g. #'identity is not #'c.c/identity..
10:43	llasram	tomoj: You have a var in your ns named `identity`?
10:43	tomoj	yeah
10:44	tomoj	and comp, get, assoc, peek, conj, map, mapv...
10:44	llasram	? what are you doing?
10:46	llasram	nDuff: a hand-off queue, maybe?
10:49	TimMc	nDuff: WRiting to the lazy seq, or handing stuff off to the side?
10:51	nDuff	the buffered writer is being bound to out inside a worker thread, the lazy seq is being used as a return value is compojure
10:52	Frozenlock	May I inquire on the state of clj-cljs code sharing?
10:55	TimMc	nDuff: It is a lazy seq of characters?
10:56	gfredericks	Frozenlock: I haven't heard anything beyond the age-old lein-cljsbuild crossovers approach
10:58	nDuff	TimMc: ...of strings is my understanding, but let me check the compojure docs.
10:58	Frozenlock	gfredericks: Thanks
11:04	hyPiRion	hey, C++ question totally unrelated to Clojure: If I have "uint32_t a = 0; a--;", is the result undefined, or will the thing crash??
11:04	lazybot	hyPiRion: Definitely not.
11:04	hyPiRion	/s/??/?/
11:05	nDuff	hyPiRion: That should wrap around, if memory serves.
11:08	ChongLi	hyPiRion: I just tried it
11:09	ChongLi	it returned 4294967295
11:10	hyPiRion	Yeah, it returns that here as well. Just not sure if it's specified within the C specification or not. I don't really care what the value is, as long as it's not throwing some error.
11:11	nDuff	I'm quite sure it won't throw an error.
11:11	Anderkent	AFAIK it's basically a = (uint32_t) (a - 1) => (uint32_t) -1
11:11	nDuff	C doesn't specify checked math.
11:11	Anderkent	which by spec is UINT_MAX
11:11	alexnixon	hyPiRion: IIRC unsigned integers must wrap (according to the spec), whereas overflow for signed integers is undefined
11:11	nDuff	...not for integers, anyhow.
11:11	Anderkent	alexnixon: we're talking about underflow though
11:12	dnolen	jonasen: ping
11:12	ChongLi	http://c0x.coding-guidelines.com/6.3.1.3.html
11:13	hyPiRion	ChongLi: Thanks
11:13	hyPiRion	(inc alexnixon)
11:13	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:13	Anderkent	ChongLi: yup, assuming type of (a - 1) is signed int
11:14	hyPiRion	(inc ChongLi)
11:14	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:14	Anderkent	Actually I think the relevant bit is 6.2.5
11:14	ChongLi	this stuff can be so tricky to deal with
11:15	ChongLi	Otherwise, if the new type is unsigned, the value is converted by repeatedly adding or subtracting one more than the maximum value that can be represented in the new type until the value is in the range of the new type.
11:15	Anderkent	"A computation involving unsigned operands can never overflow, because a result that cannot be represented by the resulting unsigned integer type is reduced modulo the number that is one greater than the largest value that can be represented by the resulting type."
11:15	Anderkent	and that is for negative overflow too
11:15	Anderkent	6.3.1.3 discusses convertion from signed int to unsigned int
11:16	Anderkent	not operations on unsigned ints
11:16	hyPiRion	It's iffy when you're working against Intel compilers. You never know what they do.
11:17	ChongLi	https://www.refheap.com/paste/8956
11:17	ChongLi	I tried this with g++
11:17	ChongLi	and it underflowed
11:17	hyPiRion	The only thing which is relevant for me is if it crashes or not
11:18	ChongLi	but it's ok to get an incorrect result? :)
11:18	ChongLi	haha
11:18	hyPiRion	But you guys have confirmed my thoughts. So thank you again :)
11:18	hyPiRion	ChongLi: I abuse stuff: `while (c --> 0) ...`
11:20	tomoj	llasram: lenses - (= 4 (l/assoc 3 l/identity 4))
11:21	devn	marmalade is down :(
11:22	ChongLi	devn: I complained about that yesterday
11:22	ChongLi	technomancy informed me that it was node.js's fault!
11:22	hyPiRion	It's always node.js' fault.
11:22	llasram	tomoj: Iiiinteresting
11:24	hyPiRion	Oh nice, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/3e89a16b973914a057a33417ccb621a099283ccd
11:24	tomoj	then (= (l/assoc-in nil [:foo :bar] 4) (l/assoc nil (l/comp :foo :bar) 4))
11:24	hyPiRion	reduce-kv now supports nil
11:24	hyPiRion	and the reducers library also does.
11:26	ChongLi	oh man
11:26	ChongLi	people were storing keys and passwords in public repos on github
11:26	ChongLi	so they had to kill search to protect them?
11:26	ChongLi	faith in humanity lost :(
11:27	hyPiRion	ChongLi: they killed the search feature because of that?
11:27	ChongLi	well, I'm sure they didn't destroy the code
11:27	ChongLi	they'll probably turn it back on once everything settles down
11:27	stain_	silly people!
11:28	stain_	how would you do that? git init directly in the home directory?
11:28	stain_	here's 25 GB straight to Github!
11:28	stain_	it's all.. "opensource" yeah
11:28	egghead	lol
11:28	llasram	ChongLi: citation?
11:28	ChongLi	thinking about this makes me realize how dangerous Datomic really is
11:29	ChongLi	http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/01/25/132203/github-kills-search-after-hundreds-of-private-keys-exposed
11:29	ChongLi	are they still working on allowing you to destroy data in Datomic?
11:29	hyPiRion	ChongLi: "With great power comes great responsibility" - Rich Hickey
11:30	TimMc	ChongLi: My spot-check turned up a .ssh witha known_hosts file that didn't encrypt the hostnames. One of the hostnames was github.com...
11:30	TimMc	I was tempted to "fix" the repo.
11:31	ChongLi	wow
11:31	ChongLi	github should just put a filter on .ssh
11:31	ChongLi	force you to explicitly turn it off before you can push
11:32	hyPiRion	ChongLi: At least ask if you intend to do so.
11:32	Anderkent	ChongLi: except one could just commit their encrypted file, and .ssh/ that just symlinks to .private/.ssh
11:33	Anderkent	I don't think github should care about what i push to it at all
11:33	ChongLi	well they care enough to turn off search
11:33	Anderkent	yes, and I think that's wrong
11:34	Frozenlock	"There is also no mechanisms to prevent users from uploading keys, a point which some security boffins say GitHub should implement." No it should not.
11:34	TimMc	I think disabling search is an OK temporary patch, as long as it only lasts for maybe half a day.
11:35	Anderkent	disabling the search doesnt help at all
11:35	TimMc	It doesn't? Google doesn't index Github very effectively, last I saw.
11:35	babilen	hyPiRion: Yeah, I've received the mail about CLJ-1098 this morning and it made for a nice start into the day. That was one of my pet peeves and it has finally been solved (in the sanest way possible)
11:35	edlothiol	they didn't disable search, it just went down ( https://status.github.com/messages )
11:35	Anderkent	well I get 10 sites of results for 'site:github.com ".ssh/id_rsa"' right now
11:36	TimMc	I guess GOogle improved their indexing, then. :-)
11:36	Anderkent	edlothiol: good to know
11:36	TimMc	edlothiol: Ha!
11:36	dnolen	ibdknox: nice post
11:36	edlothiol	though "we are keeping it offline while we perform some additional maintenance" could of course be related to this
11:37	babilen	A lot of people also uploaded their secure gpg keyrings and there are valid reasons for private keys in software (cf. http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=BEGIN+RSA+PRIVATE+KEY)
11:38	ibdknox	dnolen: thanks :)
11:40	hyPiRion	babilen: yeah, it makes stuff usable.
11:42	babilen	Hope I can merge that branch soon
11:46	devn	hm, anyone know why indentation with vectors doesn't work the way one would expect? if i have ([:foo :bar]\n\|[:bar :baz]) and I hit TAB, I get an additional two space indent.
11:46	devn	it treats them like they're nested
11:47	devn	technomancy: any ideas?
11:47	babilen	devn: I assume that you are referring to the behaviour in Emacs. Is that correct?
11:47	devn	yes
11:49	devn	TAB is bound to (indent-for-tab-command ...)
11:53	metellus	devn: maybe because it expects the first thing in a list to be a function, so it's indenting [:bar :baz] as if it was an argument to that function
11:57	quuxman	has anybody here used overtone?
12:02	dysoco	Hello, anyone knows where can I get ClojureBox for Windows? The website seems to be down: http://clojure.bighugh.com/
12:02	gfredericks	does leiningen support adding maven repos from arbitrary directories? (e.g., a /lib in my project)
12:10	technomancy	gfredericks: there is such a thing as file:// repos, but you didn't hear that from me
12:10	technomancy	devn: I have no idea what the logic behind clojure-mode indentation is, but metellus is probably correct
12:13	seangrove	quuxman: Yeah, of course, why?
12:13	quuxman	I'm trying to set it up
12:13	seangrove	wei_ has more experience with overtone than I do though
12:15	quuxman	seangrove: I've used the Haskell super collider API a few years ago and had a lot of fun with it. I'm trying to figure out the clojure toolchain now... so far I've managed to get overtone installed with lein and iclojure, but haven't gotten scsynth connected
12:16	seangrove	Oh, hadn't seen iclojure before
12:16	seangrove	iclojure?
12:16	seangrove	bah, no entry :P
12:16	seangrove	any?
12:16	seangrove	lazybot clojurebot: whatsamattawitchyou
12:17	seangrove	quuxman: Are you using emacs/vim/ccw?
12:18	quuxman	in my everday job I use ipython + vim, but I decided to go with emacs for clojure, so that's slowing me down some :-P
12:19	quuxman	seangrove: ok wow, if you use the internal SC server, it's incredibly easy: (use 'overtone.live)
12:20	seangrove	quuxman: Yeah, I don't remember any problems getting it setup - it installed a bunch of stuff, but it worked super smoothly
12:25	quuxman	seangrove: how do I get definst into my namespace?
12:27	seangrove	just: (:use [overtone.live])
12:27	seangrove	And then you should have access to it
12:28	seangrove	https://github.com/overtone/overtone/blob/master/src/overtone/examples/getting_started/intro.clj
12:28	seangrove	Best way to get started :)
12:37	quuxman	seangrove: that use statement gives me a CompilerException
12:37	quuxman	CompilerException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: overtone.live, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
12:37	seangrove	Try opening that example file and running nrepl
12:37	seangrove	Then you can just do C-x C-e and eval each form
12:38	quuxman	what's the difference between "(use ..." and "(:use ..."?
12:38	nDuff	quuxman: the latter is inside (ns)
12:38	nDuff	quuxman: the former is for use on its own.
12:39	quuxman	nDuff: I don't know how to use nrepl
12:40	quuxman	I can run "lein repl" which starts it, but then I don't even have tab-completion
12:40	quuxman	that's why I installed iclojure
12:40	clgv	quuxman: install leiningen 2 and you will have tab completion in "lein repl"
12:40	quuxman	I have leningen 2
12:41	equalsdanny	i dont like the default repl either
12:41	equalsdanny	someone should definitely rework it
12:41	quuxman	I'm spoiled by ipython perhaps
12:42	equalsdanny	the basic clojure repl is like 10 lines long. is it that hard to write 300+ but make it freaking useful??
12:42	lazybot	equalsdanny: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
12:42	technomancy	if you don't have tab completion then your repl is broken; can you report it as a bug?
12:42	clgv	quuxman: well then there is something wron with your lein setup. lein completion works here
12:44	nDuff	quuxman: If you want a REPL environment built for extreme usability, most folks end up with emacs' nrepl.el
12:45	nDuff	quuxman: ...that also gives you evaluation straight from your editor buffers, paredit mode (for structurally-aware editing... being able to operate on code blocks, as opposed to lines/words) and lots of other shiny goodies.
12:46	quuxman	nDuff: yeah, I couldn't figure out how to install that
12:46	nDuff	quuxman: If you have Emacs 24, the "Emacs Live" package from the overtone folks is easy to install.
12:46	quuxman	nDuff: it looks like I need clojure-mode, which relies on some non-default package repository, which I couldn't figure out how to update
12:46	nDuff	...basically just a big git checkout of the whole thing into your ~/.emacs.d, and that bundles clojure-mode and everything else.
12:47	quuxman	oh awesome
12:47	technomancy	unfortunately the default package repository only accepts packages with FSF copyright assignment, so it's basically useless
12:47	nDuff	See https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live -- they've got videos and whatnot introducing it, too.
12:48	technomancy	but if you're going to use Emacs, you pretty much have to set up marmalade; otherwise it's a ton of extra work tracking down manual installations
12:49	ChongLi	technomancy: manual installations are a non-starter for me
12:49	quuxman	yeah, I was reading about marmalade here: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode
12:49	ChongLi	I've got my init.el in a git repo and setup to auto-install packages from a list
12:49	ChongLi	I can blow away everything else in .emacs.d with git clean -dxf
12:50	quuxman	but those instructions didn't work for me.
12:50	ChongLi	and next time I start emacs it puts everything back
12:50	ChongLi	repeatability is an amazing goal to have
12:50	technomancy	quuxman: how so?
12:51	quuxman	I put the marmalade repository command in my init.el, evalutaed it, then ran package-refresh-contents, but clojure-mode was still not found
12:52	quuxman	http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/ shows an http gateway error
12:53	XPherior	quuxman: I've been getting that for months. Every time I try it.
12:53	XPherior	So I never ended up using it the easy way. :)
12:53	quuxman	what's the hard way?
12:53	ChongLi	what we need is a mirror
12:53	XPherior	Copy the .el files from Github into .emacs.d
12:53	XPherior	Not hard, just lame I guess.
12:53	technomancy	oh, maybe it was down because node.js crashed again =(
12:54	ChongLi	technomancy: yeah I mentioned that earlier
12:54	ChongLi	haha
12:54	technomancy	ChongLi: we wouldn't need a mirror if the damn thing used static files on disk like every other package archive in the world =\
12:54	XPherior	Heh
12:55	ChongLi	the IDE as a value
12:55	ChongLi	now let me wrap my head around that one
12:55	quuxman	Symbol's function definition is void: package-installed-p
12:56	ChongLi	package-installed-p is a compiled Lisp function in `package.el'.
12:56	quuxman	it's not part of emacs 24 package-* stuff?
12:56	ChongLi	it should be
12:57	quuxman	yeah, this clojure-mode is totally baffling me
12:57	ChongLi	package.el is included with emacs 24
12:57	quuxman	I've got 24.1.1
12:58	technomancy	if you can't call that function it means that package.el hasn't been loaded yet
12:58	technomancy	(require 'package)
12:59	quuxman	sorry I'm just not famaliar with emacs, emacs lisp, or clojure. Taking me a while to figure out packages and paths
12:59	ChongLi	I love these blog posts; ibdknox sure knows how to write some nice stuff
13:00	quuxman	is it possible to run all this stuff on android?
13:00	ChongLi	what stuff?
13:01	quuxman	(that's not a very serious question, btw)
13:01	technomancy	quuxman: once marmalade has been added and loaded, a simple M-x package-install clojure-mode will do it
13:01	quuxman	scsynth + overtone
13:01	nDuff	quuxman: ...particularly as a newbie to emacs, I do recommend ignoring anything the clojure-mode docs say, marmalade, etc. and just using emacs-live
13:01	technomancy	but if you like vim, you should use vim
13:01	quuxman	nDuff: yeah, that's what I'm thinking
13:01	ChongLi	switching from vim to emacs (or vice versa) is a pretty big commitment
13:02	quuxman	I just wanted nifty clojure code navigation
13:02	nDuff	ChongLi: Who said anyone has to "switch"? I use both.
13:02	ChongLi	don't attempt it while also trying to learn a new language and stuff
13:02	nDuff	ChongLi: ...they're good for different niches.
13:02	ChongLi	nDuff: you're pretty amazing
13:02	quuxman	I've used clojure and emacs years ago, just forgot most things
13:02	ChongLi	I switched and now I can't figure Vim out
13:02	ChongLi	I keep hitting emacs keybindings in it
13:02	quuxman	ChongLi: yeah, that's what I would probably do :-)
13:03	quuxman	I code largely by muscle memory
13:03	ChongLi	yeah I've got paredit in muscle memory
13:03	quuxman	I learned dvorak about a decade ago. I can't code without it
13:03	ChongLi	paredit is just fantastic
13:04	ChongLi	how do you use vim with dvorak? that's just crazy
13:04	quuxman	or really do anything without it. I can't use qwerty
13:04	technomancy	dvorak is the main reason I didn't learn vim in school
13:04	quuxman	ChongLi: hjkl are the only bindings that are really qwerty optimized, and they work fine in dvorak too
13:04	nDuff	ChongLi: I never got in the habit of the old vi movement keys
13:04	nDuff	ChongLi: ...and the rest of vim seems perfectly fine in dvorak to me.
13:04	ChongLi	nDuff: you use the arrow keys?
13:05	nDuff	when I need to navigate one-char-at-a-time, which is rarely.
13:05	quuxman	ChongLi: I just use hjkl.
13:05	ChongLi	quuxman: pretty bizarre
13:05	quuxman	ChongLi: but usually I use w, %, #, *, etc for navigation
13:05	ChongLi	I take it neither of you are FPS players?
13:06	quuxman	not really
13:06	nDuff	ChongLi: Back when I played twitch games, I remapped their keybindings to be dvorak-friendly.
13:07	ChongLi	by the way, easymotion is amazing
13:07	quuxman	what's easymotion?
13:08	quuxman	btw, ultimately what I'm trying to do here is make virtual instruments that use multitouch UIs
13:08	ChongLi	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmv6-dguS3g#t=1m40s
13:09	quuxman	ChongLi: does it have language plugins?
13:09	ChongLi	it's language-agnostic afaik
13:11	quuxman	that's more the vim spirit
13:11	ChongLi	yeah it is
13:11	ChongLi	watching this little vid gave me nostalgia
13:13	bpr	if you lien uberjar with checkout dependencies, does it package up the code from the checkouts or their jars in your ~/.m2/repository ?
13:14	technomancy	bpr: no, part of the point of checkouts is that they only affect development
13:15	bpr	technomancy: yeah, i figured as much. it kinda goes against the goal of reproduceable builds
13:15	bpr	but i wanted to be sure, b/c man it would be convenient right now :-p
13:16	ChongLi	it's pretty crazy how I see people saying leiningen is one of the reasons to learn clojure
13:16	ChongLi	how'd you get the idea for its design?
13:17	technomancy	bpr: usually you'd use checkouts to bring a library into an application, and the final build of the application would be done on a build server with no checkouts. but you're right that it can lead to trouble when using it between libraries.
13:17	quuxman	so it looks like https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live is meant to be a ~/.emacs.d directory?
13:17	technomancy	ChongLi: I think it flows pretty naturally out of the Clojure philosophy of representing everything as a simple map and using functions for everything.
13:18	ChongLi	technomancy: yeah I was just thinking about that a bit
13:18	technomancy	ChongLi: for instance, I didn't design it with higher-order tasks in mind, but that came for free by building on defn
13:19	technomancy	it's amazing how far you can get with the simple principles of 0) don't get clever, and 1) don't invent any new concepts unless you absolutely have to
13:20	ChongLi	yeah
13:20	ChongLi	I really love the philosophy of keeping everything as just plain data
13:20	ChongLi	and using pure functions on it
13:21	bpr	that philosophy, imo, is one of the biggest contributions clojure brings to the table
13:22	ChongLi	I think it's really weird how people can write object-oriented programs with complex inheritance hierarchies and mutable objects and then turn around and use stuff like JSON for serialization
13:22	ChongLi	I think Rich mentioned this in one of his talks
13:23	ChongLi	it's one of those "obvious" ideas that people just don't seem to be aware of
13:23	technomancy	people like feeling clever
13:23	ChongLi	yeah that's a tempting feeling
13:23	quuxman	ChongLi: why is that weird? It's very natural for any kind of UI to do something like that
13:24	ChongLi	quuxman: sure, but it's not natural to represent data that way
13:24	quuxman	ChongLi: where what's being stored is pretty straightforward, but when creating the data structure a lot of complex interface code is required, so inheritence makes sense
13:24	quuxman	ChongLi: it is if you're writing JavaScript. I've written JavaScript apps that do exactly that, and it feels very natural and convenient
13:25	ChongLi	in javascript you don't really have a choice; everything is an object
13:25	quuxman	ChongLi: in my case the simple serialized json is stored in MongoDB, where properties or properties of subdocs can be conveniently indexed
13:26	ChongLi	sure, that's basically the same as clojure style
13:26	ChongLi	it's a convention though
13:26	quuxman	what's the story with the fancing looking terminal in these screenshots? https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
13:27	seangrove	quuxman: post-processing on the video
13:27	technomancy	some of that seems to be designed for live-coding in front of an audience, not everyday use
13:27	ChongLi	it looks like they wanted to simulate taking photos of an old CRT
13:28	Wild_Cat	nah, sadly it's just post-processing, can't be done in realtime :(
13:29	seangrove	Well, I don't know about "can't be done", but it's certainly not in this case :)
13:30	progo	I wonder if making up own HTML tags to provide template substitutions in enlive is a good idea :o
13:35	Phonatacid	yo : I'm currently designing/prototyping a library meant to mirror data-structures to files (dump them to a files once they're changed). And I'm in front of a dilemma. I somehow delegated in a functional style the heuristic to the agent "thing", stocking needed attributes (like the file path) into the meta map, and I'm now wondering if subclassing clojure.lang.Agent wouldn't be cleaner. What's your thought ?
13:37	technomancy	don't subclass agent
13:38	technomancy	gen-class should only be used for java interop reasons
13:38	jsabeaudry	Is lein-oudated broken on lein2? (i just upgraded to 2.0.0 from 2.0.0preview10 and lein oudated is using 100% cpu for a long time, still has not finished)
13:39	quuxman	what's the keybinding for evaluating a form using the overtone emacs-live config?
13:39	jsabeaudry	I just cant spell outdated can I
13:40	Phonatacid	@technomancy: ok thanks for the input, and thanks for leiningen :D.
13:40	technomancy	np
13:40	tanzoniteblack	quuxman: C-x C-e
13:41	jsabeaudry	Oh wow, it finally completed
13:42	quuxman	tanzoniteblack: how about the whole file?
13:43	tanzoniteblack	quuxman: I believe you want to use the function nrepl-eval-load-file for that, but it's not by default assigned to a shortcut
13:44	tanzoniteblack	quuxman: generally I use nrepl-eval-buffer for things like that, since I'm generally working with already loaded files, but again I don't use it often enough to have a shortcut made for it
13:45	technomancy	quuxman: C-c C-k is what you want
13:45	technomancy	the nrepl.el readme has more details
13:55	clgv	jsabeaudry: lein-outdated had a problem with one of the jumps in the preview time as well - but back then it failed with an exception
14:01	jsabeaudry	clgv, Ok thanks, somehow if I execute it now it's almost instantaneous
14:03	clgv	jsabeaudry: oh right it download the maven index on first call
14:07	quuxman	are there any GUI tools that construct SC UGen graphs?
14:08	quuxman	if not, a generic graph UI library would be very useful
14:09	Bronsa	19
14:09	quuxman	especially if it supported numeric constants
14:10	Bronsa	ops.
14:10	jsabeaudry	clgv, makes sense!
14:21	seangrove	ibdknox: Very disappointed that you fabricated all of the games that used CES-like systems
14:21	seangrove	Also, please up your game for creating professional-grade games at 48-hour hackathons
14:22	ibdknox	seangrove: I'm going to take some classes at digipen to prepare for next time :p
14:22	seangrove	Well, apparently everything you do directly reflects on the potential and ability of LT
14:39	gfredericks	why shouldn't I write a testing library for creating "spies" (like jasmine); does midge already have this?
14:41	TimMc	seangrove: ?
14:42	seangrove	?
14:42	TimMc	I seem to have missed this piece of snark.
14:42	seangrove	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116615
14:42	jonasen	is there an irc channel for aleph/lamina?
14:45	technomancy	gfredericks: you mean something to make a function log all its invocations?
14:45	TimMc	seangrove: Nice.
14:45	technomancy	you should look at tools.trace
14:46	tomoj	hmm, is the claim about a seq of 100 elems true?
14:48	tomoj	oh, I see your reply
14:59	michaelr525	hello
15:04	tomoj	I'm doing that now too
15:04	tomoj	except just long-polling
15:04	tomoj	nDuff: did you see https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP ?
15:05	nDuff	tomoj: Just found it. Think it answers the questions I had from the high-level overview.
15:06	tomoj	I don't see the ws support
15:07	tomoj	oh, :websocket true
15:07	tomoj	weird...
15:10	jmckitrick	I'm having an issue getting a jdbc WHERE IN clause to work...
15:10	jmckitrick	http://paste.lisp.org/+2W34
15:11	jmckitrick	Would someone tell me why I'm getting no results back, when those ids are in the table?
15:17	cgag	I guess I've been using vimclojure too long. If I just invoke a repl using lein repl, how do I switch to one of my namespaces and start calling functions? If I just use (ns my.namespace) to switch namespaces, I get unable to resolve symbol on any functions from that namespace.
15:18	technomancy	cgag: (doto 'my.namespace require in-ns)
15:19	ChongLi	hmm
15:19	ChongLi	ibdknox likes putting close parens on their own line
15:20	cgag	thanks technomancy
15:20	ibdknox	ChongLi: no
15:20	ibdknox	I hate that shit
15:20	ibdknox	buuuut
15:20	ChongLi	ibdknox: I see a bunch of it in chromashift code
15:21	ibdknox	LT didn't have auto-closing then
15:21	ChongLi	ahh
15:21	ibdknox	with paredit that would go away
15:21	ChongLi	paredit is the best thing ever
15:22	michaelr525	ibdknox: oh, and chromashift is really slow because of all that CES shit ;)
15:23	ibdknox	michaelr525: I'm fairly certain it's the worst idea ever.
15:23	ibdknox	Also I'm fairly certain he never ran the game :p
15:24	ChongLi	what's weird is there already exists a game called chromashift
15:24	ibdknox	oh really?
15:24	ChongLi	some weird super puzzle fighter type thing
15:24	michaelr525	ibdknox: do you plan on opensourcing some of your LT code?
15:24	ibdknox	michaelr525: all of it
15:24	ChongLi	http://www.msfhigh.com/chromashift/game.html
15:24	ChongLi	ibdknox: that's fantastic
15:25	ibdknox	no use in having a closed source dev environment these days
15:25	ChongLi	I think the best way to build any editor is to start with an environment first
15:25	ChongLi	a la emacs
15:25	michaelr525	ibdknox: every time you make a blog post i'm dying of curiosity to poke at the source..
15:25	ibdknox	not that you'll need to modify the core directly very much
15:26	ChongLi	we'll be writing our own functions in CLJS and tagging them, won't we?
15:26	ibdknox	michaelr525: haha well it's a codebased that is full of discovery so there's a decent amount of inconsistency as I've learned new things.
15:26	ibdknox	ChongLi: or anything that compiles to JS
15:27	ChongLi	ibdknox: yeah, so that sort of system really breaks down if the editor is closed source
15:27	ibdknox	yep
15:27	ChongLi	since there'd always be this wall between user-defined stuff and built-ins
15:27	ibdknox	it wouldn't make sense anyways
15:27	ibdknox	you could always just remove the behaviors/objects and replace them
15:27	ibdknox	there's literally nothing I can do that you wouldn't be able to in the system
15:28	ChongLi	yeah, plus that bit you mentioned where a dev might remove everything and ship his own app built inside that environment
15:28	oriig	is it a good practice if your function returns say a list in one case and false in another case?
15:29	ChongLi	we don't want another system like flash
15:29	ibdknox	ChongLi: yeah
15:29	ibdknox	nope nope, OSS is both the right thing to do and actually a competitive advantage
15:29	ChongLi	lock-in just seems like a coward's way of doing business
15:29	jeremyheiler	oriig, might be better to return nil
15:30	p_l	ChongLi: it's called "capitalism"
15:30	ChongLi	p_l: it's not essential to capitalism
15:30	jeremyheiler	... instead of false, that is.
15:30	ChongLi	there's an older idea called "brand loyalty" that works pretty well too
15:30	p_l	ChongLi: it's not essential, but promoted by the core of capitalism (not some of the other things that sometimes are lumped as part of it)
15:31	ChongLi	if you act like a human being and treat your customers the way you'd want them to treat you, you can inspire some loyalty
15:31	oriig	jeremyheiler thanks
15:31	p_l	ChongLi: that requires a long-term strategy, which stock markets don't like
15:31	ChongLi	p_l: most of what we have to deal with today (giant corporations) is very far from the core of capitalism
15:32	p_l	ChongLi: more like it's what happens when we strip barriers that we didn't know existed, by technology. But it's not the place for this discussion, and I'm so sleepy I might start babbling at some point :)
15:32	ChongLi	haha
15:32	cgag	technomancy (or anyone else), any idea why the shortcut for namespaced keywords wouldn't work? I have (:require [cemerick.friend] :as friend), but if I type ::friend/redirect-on-auth? at the repl, I get an invalid token error.
15:33	ibdknox	cgag: :as friend needs to be in the vector
15:33	jeremyheiler	oriig: one example of this is seq. (seq ()) => nil
15:33	ChongLi	that's the one thing I think consistently trips people up
15:34	cgag	that was just a typo, sorry, it is
15:35	ChongLi	it is a pretty weird syntax
15:35	cgag	i use that keyword in my code and it works fine, and it expands to :cemerick.friend/redirect-on-auth? in the vimclojure repl, but not the bare lein repl
15:36	cgag	i'm trying to use kibit and it skips any file i use that type of keyword in due to that invalid token exception
15:36	ohpauleez	cgag: Yeah, kibit can't parse over ::keywords
15:37	ohpauleez	auto-expanded namespaced keywords
15:37	ohpauleez	because kibit only reads, it doesn't parse or compile
15:37	ohpauleez	it doesn't compile**
15:37	ohpauleez	cgag: A fix is, comment that line out or remove the second colon, run kibit, and add it back in
15:38	ohpauleez	or write a patch for kibit to automatically do that if it detects it :)
15:39	equalsdanny	ChongLi: you can get vendor lockin with OSS as well when moving from one platform to another does not pass cost-benefit analysis
15:39	equalsdanny	in terms of complexity and efforts required
15:40	ChongLi	equalsdanny: you're correct there
15:40	ChongLi	there's also a lot to be said for your data and the portability (or lack thereof) of whatever format it's in
15:41	TimMc	&(:require '[clojure.string :as str])
15:41	lazybot	⇒ nil
15:41	TimMc	&(read-string "::str/foo")
15:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::str/foo
15:41	ChongLi	there's nothing worse than having your stuff locked up in some strange proprietary binary format
15:42	TimMc	&::str/foo
15:42	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::str/foo
15:42	cgag	ohpauleez, that makes sense, still not sure sure why it doesn't work at the repl though
15:42	TimMc	Hmm, how does that work again? I could swear it was possible...
15:42	S11001001	TimMc: the ns will be str
15:42	S11001001	&:str/foo
15:42	lazybot	⇒ :str/foo
15:42	ohpauleez	&::foo
15:42	lazybot	⇒ :clojure.core/foo
15:43	ohpauleez	but not if you're just reading it
15:43	ibdknox	I don't think you can auto-expand by an alias
15:43	TimMc	S11001001: No, I thought there was a form that allowed you to use the aliases, but now I don't know how that would be implemented. :-)
15:43	TimMc	ibdknox: A damn shame.
15:43	ibdknox	I agree
15:43	ibdknox	I use namespaced keywords a lot
15:43	ibdknox	lol
15:44	S11001001	bind the keywords in same module, refer to symbols
15:44	S11001001	then you also get spell-checking
15:48	amalloy	no, TimMc is right re ::str/foo
15:48	amalloy	it would work in a real repl, but lazybot reads your forms outside the namespace they're evaluated in
15:48	ibdknox	hm
15:49	ibdknox	must be broken in cljs then
15:49	S11001001	amalloy: hm.
15:49	amalloy	ibdknox: i wouldn't be surprised. ::str/foo refers to the clojure namespace in which compilation is happening
15:50	amalloy	,ns
15:50	amalloy	~ping
15:51	TimMc	&(do (:require '[clojure.string :as str]) ::str/foo)
15:51	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::str/foo
15:52	TimMc	Bah, that's :require!
15:52	amalloy	heh. broken in so many creative ways, TimMc. i don't think you'll ever get it to work in lazybot
15:52	TimMc	&(do (require '[clojure.string :as str]) ::str/foo) ;; gotta try anyhow
15:52	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::str/foo
15:52	TimMc	So yeah, works in my REPL. phew
15:52	S11001001	TimMc: I imagine it can't splice eval into read, just expand
15:53	TimMc	Right, I suppose it would have to be separate forms.
15:53	TimMc	hmm
16:00	quuxman	the problem with the defaults in https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live is I can't actually delete parens. It's confusing the hell out of me
16:00	ChongLi	quuxman: that's paredit at work
16:00	ChongLi	http://emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
16:01	ChongLi	learn this
16:01	ChongLi	you will love it once you do
16:01	quuxman	man, how can that be strongly recommended?
16:01	quuxman	:-P
16:01	cgag	i love paredit 99% of the time, but I love being able to toggle it off quickly as well
16:01	ChongLi	deleting parens is bad
16:01	ChongLi	it can be toggled with M-x paredit-mode
16:02	ChongLi	which can be bound to a hotkey if you like
16:02	gfredericks	technomancy: yes (re: spies); so you could apply it to a var, or create one standalone to test with callbacks
16:03	dnolen	paredit - you can always insert arbitrary characters w/ C-q KEY, and delete a paren by marking a region over it.
16:04	Raynes	quuxman: It's strongly recommended because almost everyone uses it and enjoys it. It just takes time to get used to.
16:04	ChongLi	quuxman: once you get stuff like paredit-open-round and barfage and slurpage in muscle memory you'll really get into a groove
16:05	quuxman	How do I fix "exception in GraphDef_Recv: exceeded number of interconnect buffers."? In sclang I would simply set Server.options.numWireBufs ...
16:06	Raynes	dnolen: You can delete parens by doing C-u backspace
16:06	Raynes	No need to do a region.
16:06	ChongLi	unbalancing parens makes paredit unhappy, however
16:07	quuxman	so operations that keep them balanced are better when it's on
16:07	Raynes	Yeah, but if paredit is unhappy already because if an accidental key sequence then you'll need to have a way to delete them.
16:07	ChongLi	yeah
16:07	ChongLi	or just mash undo until they're rebalanced!
16:08	ibdknox	pasting is a common culprit
16:08	Raynes	Doesn't always work out.
16:08	quuxman	any supercollider people still around?
16:08	ChongLi	emacs style undo is fantastic
16:08	ChongLi	how does all that stuff work in light table? (I've never tried it)
16:08	Raynes	I never could get Emacs undo to work properly. I just use undo-tree.
16:09	ChongLi	it's really easy
16:09	ChongLi	undo a bunch
16:09	ChongLi	if you go too far
16:09	ibdknox	ChongLi: there's no paredit stuff in there right now
16:09	ChongLi	C-f
16:09	ChongLi	now you're redoing
16:09	ibdknox	I added auto completing pairs a couple days ago
16:09	ibdknox	in the next version
16:09	ibdknox	that is
16:09	ChongLi	what about mark/kill ring etc?
16:09	Raynes	Keep in mind that lt isn't Emacs.
16:09	ChongLi	or do you just use standard cut/paste
16:10	ibdknox	standard cut and paste, though the vim bindings implement marks and registers
16:10	tomoj	I wonder, if you want to write paredit for codemirror in cljs, does codemirror's api infect your code or can you make it nice?
16:10	ChongLi	I am aware of that, that's why I'm asking :)
16:10	ibdknox	tomoj: it's been done
16:10	ibdknox	it's just really slow
16:10	tomoj	oh, subpar, I see
16:10	ibdknox	tomoj: https://github.com/achengs/subpar
16:10	Raynes	But the name is appropriate.
16:11	ibdknox	aww
16:11	ibdknox	lol
16:11	Raynes	:p
16:11	Raynes	I imagine it's just hard.
16:11	ChongLi	Raynes: as I was saying earlier
16:11	bbloom	ibdknox: that dude on HN was a real dick. "Not to shit all over you for no reason, but let me shit all over you for no reason. also, i have no idea what i'm talking about"
16:11	ibdknox	it acutally seems really well written, it just probably takes the wrong approach
16:11	ChongLi	the key thing to keep in mind about emacs undo is that you never lose anything
16:12	ChongLi	undos and redos just keep getting consed onto this big list
16:12	tomoj	looks like codemirror infected subpar to me
16:12	ibdknox	bbloom: I happened to see the comment as I was walking back from my run. I ran the rest of the way home to see what the fuck was going on.
16:12	Raynes	undo-tree is helpful in visualizing that tree.
16:12	ChongLi	it's not really a tree with regular emacs undo
16:12	ibdknox	bbloom: the whole tirade was so far afield
16:13	ibdknox	lol
16:13	ChongLi	it's just an endless stream that folds back on itself
16:13	Raynes	bbloom: What commnet?
16:13	Raynes	comment*
16:13	bbloom	i'm snprbob86 on there btw, i kinda wish i could kill that alias, but HN doesn't allow renames
16:13	ibdknox	Raynes: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116615
16:13	ibdknox	bbloom: I saw that and found it odd :p
16:13	Raynes	Ugh, just the opening line.
16:13	Raynes	HN is such a shit hole.
16:14	Raynes	Please, just let me make things and leave me alone.
16:14	bbloom	Raynes: but HN is sorta ibdknox's target demographic, heh
16:15	ChongLi	isn't there a rule somewhere
16:15	ibdknox	I'm finding that to be somewhat unfortunate
16:15	ibdknox	lol
16:15	ChongLi	where if people have to start off with a disclaimer
16:15	ChongLi	they then go ahead and do the opposite in the rest of the post?
16:15	cgag	is that guy really complaining about the game being ugly
16:15	ibdknox	ChongLi: yeah, can't remember the name of it
16:16	ChongLi	it's akin to betteridge's law of headlines or something
16:16	ibdknox	cgag: a game built without a trained artist in 48 hours, yeah. It's pretty ridiculous :)
16:16	Raynes	ibdknox: This whole comment is him just dogging your cake.
16:16	Raynes	game*
16:16	Raynes	Wow, where did I get cake from game?
16:16	Raynes	Guess I really like cak.e
16:16	ibdknox	Raynes: the keys are all like right next to eachother ;)
16:17	bbloom	ibdknox: i tried to sign up with bbloom, but i get this fun error: "Too many new accounts."
16:17	ibdknox	lol
16:17	bbloom	ibdknox: pg: user experience mastermind.
16:17	bbloom	:-)
16:18	ibdknox	his treatment of HN really is funny to me
16:18	Raynes	" I like the concept of LT but I do wan't a client/server mode where I can plug in vim or Emacs (or Sublime Text 2 or whatever) as my text editor. Otherwise I'm never going to take LT seriously."
16:18	dnolen	classic HN
16:18	Raynes	ibdknox: ^ "I want to keep completing missing the point. Don't try to educate me. I'd prefer to stay remain ignorant."
16:19	egghead	could you make light table more like _insert editor here_ ?
16:19	TimMc	"This sandwich isn't enough like a soda."
16:19	bbloom	ibdknox: somebody needs to do to discussion forums like stack overflow did: just systematically design a gamified system for filtering out good stuff
16:19	egghead	I'm not sure I can use it until you do
16:19	ibdknox	lol
16:19	TimMc	bbloom: Filtering out? RReddit and HN already do that.
16:19	TimMc	Oh, you mean keeping the good stuff. nvm
16:19	ibdknox	lol
16:19	bbloom	ibdknox: stack overflow was so successful b/c it launched with EVERY FEATURE all at once. v1 was designed, built, and shipped like an MMORPG beta
16:19	ibdknox	Reddit usually hates me
16:20	bbloom	ibdknox: of course, not enough cats.
16:20	ibdknox	bbloom: I feel like PG's general response to most things about HN can be summed up as "Ain't nothin' to a boss"
16:20	bbloom	ibdknox: huh?
16:20	egghead	'we already have a macro that takes care of that'
16:21	ibdknox	bbloom: when people bring up issues with HN/community he usually disregards them :)
16:22	bbloom	ibdknox: the solutions are just too expensive for his side project
16:22	ibdknox	yeah
16:22	craigbro	hehe
16:41	quuxman	what does this mean? ƒ(+ (rand 0.004) 0.003))
16:42	ohpauleez	Is it possible to get a reference to `this` in a proxy, or do you have to proxy first and then `update-proxy` to get the `this` reference
16:43	ohpauleez	Ahhhh it's inserted into the macro, nvm
16:43	ohpauleez	thanks Joy of Clojure
16:46	callen	bbloom: filtering out good stuff?
16:46	callen	bbloom: you mean filtering for?
16:47	callen	I've been considering hacking on a discussion forum thingy lately. I have a bookmarking itch that I'm wondering if I can integrate into it.
16:47	chronno	quuxman: you have an anonymous function that takes a random number between 0 and 0.004 and adds 0.003 to it
16:47	chronno	quuxman: and one extra paren ;-)
16:48	quuxman	how do you write that without unicode?
16:49	chronno	quuxman: #(+ (rand 0.004) 0.003)
16:50	technomancy	quuxman: that's emacs-live being clever. you have to watch out when copying over large portions of code you don't understand.
16:50	technomancy	it's a render-time hack; the files on disk are regular ascii.
16:51	frozenlock	I'm tempted to use bindings with default instead of arguments for a function. Is this considered bad in clojude?
16:52	technomancy	frozenlock: you should avoid it if you can... it depends on how complicated the arglists currently are and how common overriding it would be.
16:52	quuxman	I find it wourd that #(...) is shorthand for (fn [] ...)
16:52	quuxman	*weird
16:52	frozenlock	Ok, I'll try to do it another way then, thanks!
16:53	tanzoniteblack	quuxman: emacs-live will also auto-render #{} as #{} and (fn []) as (fn [])
16:53	tanzoniteblack	quuxman: hm...in my window those had the appropriate set and lambda characters
16:53	technomancy	tanzoniteblack: all I see is hunter2
16:53	frozenlock	tanzoniteblack: We don't see what you se... :P
16:53	tanzoniteblack	∈ set, λ lambda
16:54	tanzoniteblack	emacs-live has out clevered me when I attempted to out clever it...
16:54	chronno	lol
16:55	frozenlock	tanzoniteblack: won't be long before emacs becomes sentient.
16:57	frozenlock	With a little chance it will learn to warn me before pasting in IRC when I think I'm in my REPL buffer
16:58	tomoj	quuxman: #(...) means (fn [] (...))
16:58	warz	hmm. i see a lot of jira tickets and mailing list entries from 2010 about adding support for java annotations in conjunction with gen-class. ive only seen examples though of annotations on the class, i think. is it possible to add an annotation to a defn function?
17:03	ChongLi	and #(+ %1 %2 %3) means (fn [x y z] (+ x y z))
17:04	ChongLi	which is just fantastic for some things but can definitely be abused
17:04	bbloom	tomoj: what are you using dispatch-map for? how's it working out?
17:04	technomancy	#() doesn't nest, so it's best to keep it to the shortest of function
17:04	technomancy	s
17:05	ChongLi	I like using it for wrapping an interop method invocation
17:05	ChongLi	quick and dirty
17:05	tomoj	bbloom: https://www.refheap.com/paste/9700a53f00cf1470d7c795285
17:05	S11001001	sabotage clojure dev by introducing insane language changes
17:05	S11001001	#()-nesting based on #-count
17:05	XPherior	I've been using the partial form for anon functions more often. It's really readable.
17:06	bbloom	tomoj: hmmm... interesting... context?
17:06	ChongLi	it reminds me of the informal rules around regexes
17:06	bbloom	tomoj: I'm fixing up issue #1 now too and i'll cut a release
17:06	tomoj	experimenting with lenses
17:06	ChongLi	regexes are great when they're less than an inch or two
17:06	tomoj	not going so well
17:07	bbloom	tomoj: heh, yeah, i've given up on lenses in the absence of a full algebra system :-)
17:07	devn	I don't suppose anyone knows how to get Elastisch to return more than 10 results for a query? It says I have 268 results, but if I call (:hits (:hits results)) -- it limits the number of results to 10
17:07	tomoj	algebra?
17:07	ibdknox	lenses?
17:07	frozenlock	pokemon?
17:07	bbloom	ibdknox: function/inverse pairs
17:07	devn	bah, nevermind, think i got it
17:07	ChongLi	Mail::RFC822::Address on the other hand... wow
17:07	ChongLi	how does anyone maintain this?
17:07	ChongLi	http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
17:07	S11001001	(map #(filter ##(->> %% (map ###(f %%% 42)) (into {}) (###(%%% %)))) %) [[[...]]])
17:07	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox8276$eval77097$fn__77098 sandbox8276$eval77097$fn__77098@c9abb9>
17:08	frozenlock	S11001001: I would hate you for that
17:08	bbloom	the problem is that they just don't play nice with arity other than 1 in an applicative language, plus most functions simply aren't bijective
17:08	XPherior	Do Datalog queries for Datomic compose? Kind of like how ORM queries can be lazy, so you can compose them to only hit the database once.
17:08	tomoj	a function/inverse pair is an isomorphism, not all lenses are isomorphisms
17:09	ChongLi	XPherior: don't worry about "hitting the database"
17:09	S11001001	notice how it's entirely lexically unambiguous, frozenlock, unlike certain constructs already part of clojure :]
17:09	tomoj	most of the interetsing ones aren't in fact
17:09	XPherior	... Derp, ChongLi. Completely forgot about that. :)
17:09	tomoj	like you say, most functions aren't bijective :)
17:09	XPherior	Heh, as soon as you said that, I remembered what exactly Datomic does.
17:10	XPherior	Actually, ChongLi. There's a legitimate case to care. Eliminating duplication among queries. If you have two really similiar queries, it's helpful to describe one in terms of the other.
17:10	S11001001	ChongLi: "I did not write this regular expression by hand."
17:11	ChongLi	S11001001: ah, I totally missed that
17:11	ChongLi	I just read that part "I do not maintain the regular expression below"
17:11	ChongLi	assuming it was somebody else
17:11	S11001001	I think I generated a regex once
17:12	S11001001	forget what for
17:12	S11001001	nothing like that
17:12	ChongLi	why not use a parser combinator library?
17:12	ChongLi	seems like it'd be a lot more testable
17:12	S11001001	I think it was \|-elimination
17:13	tomoj	bbloom: what's the arity problem? the difficulty of lensing into nth arg(s) of a function?
17:14	bbloom	what's the lens for the plus operator?
17:14	bbloom	tomoj: (+ 5 y) you can solve for y, (+ x 10) you can solve for x, (+ x y) you need a system of equations to solve for x and y
17:15	bbloom	like i said, without a full symbolic algebra system, inverses are scary :-)
17:15	tomoj	I'm not sure what a lens for even binary + would look like even
17:15	bbloom	exactly
17:15	bbloom	such a simple case & it doesn't work out, heh
17:15	tomoj	I mean, I don't even know what you want
17:15	tomoj	"lens for the plus operator" doesn't make sense to me
17:15	Raynes	drewr: Pretty sure I figured out the issue I was having with images in postal. Why it was ever working with apache mail eludes me. Pretty sure the issue was because the images are in a private github repo. That also explains why I had trouble reproducing it.
17:16	bbloom	tomoj: what are you planning to use lenses for?
17:16	Raynes	drewr: So take solace in the fact that your software is probably not broken while I go beat my face against a wall for taking 2 weeks to realize this.
17:16	bbloom	see also "Why Computer Algebra Systems Can't Solve Simple Equations" www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/y%3Dz2w.pdf
17:16	drewr	Raynes: forgive me for not having an img ref sanity checker :-)
17:16	tomoj	I just want extensible get-in/assoc-in/update-in/etc
17:17	bbloom	tomoj: like setf ?
17:17	bbloom	in common lisp?
17:18	tomoj	dunno
17:19	tomoj	main targets I'm thinking of are functions, collections, and maybe zippers
17:20	seangrove	Is there no merge-in?
17:21	seangrove	I wanted to use it earlier today, went about it differently though. Thought it was a curious omission.
17:21	Raynes	drewr: Nice, that means I can blame it on you!
17:21	tomoj	(fn [x & args] (apply update-in x merge args)) ?
17:21	tomoj	er, left bits out
17:22	drewr	Raynes: :-)
17:22	Raynes	drewr: It also explains one of the weirdest parts, which is how gmail worked when postbox and other desktop email clients didn't. gmail was rendering my emails in the browser where I had cookies that gave me access to the private repositories! This was a really elaborate problem.
17:22	drewr	Raynes: ahhhh that makes sense
17:23	drewr	tomoj: as a *-in addict, I fully support
17:23	seangrove	tomoj: sure, just thought it'd be a natural fit with the rest
17:24	tomoj	was just verifying I knew what you meant
17:24	technomancy	yeah, but next the merge-with fans are going to complain; where do you draw the line?
17:27	seangrove	Right about there technomancy
17:28	technomancy	(merge-with (apply partial (repeat merge-with)) m1 m2)
17:30	tomoj	some various examples https://www.refheap.com/paste/108cc5c419f3d6dcea93573ec
17:30	ChongLi	hmm docopt is really cool
17:31	ChongLi	been playing around with it in bash
17:31	quuxman	are there any clojure bindins for libraries that handle multitouch input in linux?
17:31	quuxman	basically what I'm looking for is a kivy equivalent
17:36	bbloom	tomoj: released a new 0.2.0-SNAPSHOT and fixed https://github.com/brandonbloom/dispatch-map/issues/3
17:37	quuxman	except I don't care about android support
17:38	technomancy	quuxman: I kind of doubt it; the JVM is typically pretty crap for systems-level stuff
17:40	Raynes	technomancy: I once wrote an operating system in Clojure.
17:40	Raynes	technomancy: Or maybe it was Clojure in an operating system. Who knows?
17:40	technomancy	I operated on a system while a Clojure program was running; does that count?
17:41	Raynes	Yes.
17:41	XPherior	In the 7 years since I've been introduced to conditional probability, I've never actually understood it.
17:41	XPherior	Every 2-3 years it comes back and bites me.
17:42	technomancy	http://gofy.cat-v.org/
17:43	XPherior	What's the Go community like anyway?
17:43	bbloom	technomancy: lol awesome
18:07	seangrove	$seen aphyr
18:07	lazybot	aphyr was last seen talking on #clojure 21 hours and 50 minutes ago.
18:07	craigbro	wooot
18:07	craigbro	think I got a little patch...
18:15	frozenlock	Hmm... I pushed a second jar to clojars with the same version number and it accepted it. However I think sometimes it gives me the older version...
18:16	technomancy	frozenlock: jars you've already downloaded are cached in your local ~/.m2 repository
18:17	technomancy	but yeah, we should get clojars to stop allowing that; it's dumb
18:17	frozenlock	technomancy: yes, I've erased it... First time everything is fine, but second time it's as if it re-fetched the old copy. o_O
18:17	cbp`	is it possible to put datomic in front of an oracle database
18:17	cbp`	and use it to keep track of changes
18:18	aphyr	What's the best way to get information out of swap!--other than the new state?
18:18	cbp`	instead of paying a small fortune for software that parses transaction logs
18:18	aphyr	Delivering a promise won't work, because you can only deliver once, right?
18:20	muhoo	hmm, this looks fishy https://www.refheap.com/paste/8974 is there a more efficient way to thread this kind of thing?
18:22	muhoo	or cleaner, really. i'm sure efficiency has nothing to do with it.
18:22	frozenlock	muhoo: what are you trying to do? get block-count if block-hash is absent?
18:23	muhoo	no, get block-hash for the result of getting the block count
18:23	muhoo	(f arg1 (f arg2))
18:23	muhoo	i will bet amalloy has already created somethign to do that, and it's in useful.
18:24	Raynes	amalloy is not omnipresent.
18:24	Raynes	I know this for a fact.
18:24	muhoo	yes, i guess he has to sleep at some point.
18:24	frozenlock	or does he?
18:24	frozenlock	tan tan taaaaaan
18:25	muhoo	Raynes: or did you mean omniscient?
18:25	muhoo	amalloy rules and knows all!!
18:25	Raynes	I really meant both.
18:25	Raynes	But the first mostly because you said his name hoping he'd hop in to the rescue and give you a function from useful to do what you want.
18:26	Raynes	He enjoys watching us struggle.
18:26	muhoo	he does tend to do that though.
18:26	Raynes	It's only to get your hopes up.
18:27	seangrove	aphyr: What do you think about using riemann for client-side monitoring?
18:27	seangrove	I'm thinking about adding a log-event function that submits a riemann-style event to our rails server that async puts it on a redis queue where ruby workers will submit it to a riemann server
18:28	seangrove	Bit convoluted, but we can start measuring all sort of things client-side things in real time
18:28	beamso	i'm attempting to use clojure.java.jdbc to update a join table by deleting rows and then insert the correct ones in a transaction. is there a particular way that i should be doing this?
18:29	beamso	at the moment the call after deleting records throws an error about there being no current database connection
18:39	aphyr	seangrove: I'd just have your rails process submit directly to riemann
18:40	aphyr	Unless you need durability for events through riemann restarts, in which case sure, go for a queue
18:40	aphyr	Just so long as you understand exactly what the queue bounds are :)
18:42	seangrove	aphyr: Yeah, I suppose sending udp shouldn't be a problem
18:42	aphyr	Or tcp
18:42	aphyr	we have this great technology for io
18:42	aphyr	called "threads"
18:42	seangrove	In the middle of a request? Inrails?
18:42	seangrove	Meh
18:42	seangrove	Fair enough, I'll give that a try then
18:43	seangrove	That'll keep some pressure off of redis I suppose
18:43	aphyr	Well, I can guarantee you it'll be a TCP connection if you talk to REDIS
18:43	aphyr	Depends on what kind of guarantees you want around drops
18:43	seangrove	Anyway, that sound like a reasonable use of riemann?
18:43	aphyr	Yeah, totally
18:43	seangrove	Good stuff, will let you know how it goes
18:43	aphyr	If you're sampling data, no problem doing UDP end-to-end. If you need total counts, use TCP and wait for ack from the server.
18:49	aphyr	Huh, (last) on a vector is o(n)
18:50	bbloom	aphyr: use peek
18:50	bbloom	(doc peek)
18:51	bbloom	,(doc peek)
18:51	bbloom	&(doc peek)
18:51	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); For a list or queue, same as first, for a vector, same as, but much more efficient than, last. If the collection is empty, returns nil."
18:51	bbloom	dammit bots
18:53	yedi	ibdknox: you posted it! sick
18:55	ChongLi	yedi: he posted what?
18:55	yedi	his follow up post to the CES one
18:56	yedi	i've been looking around for examples of cljs apps to see some common strategies for structuring/organizing cljs code
19:12	namespace	Is there an official clojure on android project?
19:15	aroemers	/quit
19:15	aroemers	Oops..
19:19	mae	is there a way I can add class annotations with gen-class in clojure?
19:24	jeremyheiler	mae: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10049060/clojure-attaching-annotations-to-aot-compiled-methods
19:28	ChongLi	what's the purple thing in the upper-right corner of lighttable?
19:29	ibdknox	ChongLi: fullscreen
19:30	ChongLi	ah
19:30	ChongLi	no wonder it doesn't do anything haha
19:30	ChongLi	I'm running it in its own workspace (xmonad)
19:30	ibdknox	lol
19:30	gfredericks	xmonad is always thwarting my full-screening
19:31	ChongLi	you gotta write a big manageHook
19:32	ChongLi	lighttable seems to have a different key repeat rate than what I have everywhere else
19:32	ChongLi	is that a chromium thing?
19:32	ibdknox	yeah, I don't set it
19:32	ibdknox	I wonder if I can..
19:32	ChongLi	also, I had to symlink libudev
19:32	ibdknox	yeah
19:33	ChongLi	that's a chromium dep?
19:33	ibdknox	that's also an artifact of chromium
19:33	mae	jeremyheiler: lol i need actual class-level annotations, not method ; (
19:33	ibdknox	yep
19:33	mae	i was hoping i could use 'add-annotation' core clojure method, but i need to get at the internal class object in the AOT stage
19:33	ChongLi	I guess it's an older chromium
19:33	ibdknox	It's head
19:33	ChongLi	oh, weird
19:33	mae	@jeremyheiler : see above
19:34	jeremyheiler	mae: oops, sorry :-/
19:34	ChongLi	I run chromium normally and it's linked against libudev.so.1
19:35	ChongLi	(which is the new one
19:35	ChongLi	)
19:36	beamso	hmmm. latest light table download is 0.2.5, but it updates to 0.2.7 upon first execution.
19:36	ibdknox	yes
19:37	ChongLi	yeah I don't know why it'd be linked against libudev.so.0
19:37	ibdknox	I think it's a compat thing
19:38	ibdknox	I (for my sanity) don't fiddle with that stuff and just rely on node-webkit to do the right thing
19:38	ChongLi	yeah that makes sense
19:38	ibdknox	at some point I probably need to look more into it
19:38	ChongLi	yeah hopefully
19:38	ChongLi	regular users might not be able to figure that out :)
19:39	ibdknox	what are regular linux users? ;)
19:39	ibdknox	they're probably using debian
19:39	ibdknox	which is fine
19:39	ChongLi	or ubuntu
19:39	majyk	ibdknox, I've been curious for a while about the underlying technology used in LightTable. What language is it written in? Is there a blog post somewhere that describes this?
19:39	ibdknox	I thought ubuntu was a debian
19:39	ibdknox	haha
19:40	ChongLi	yeah, but it's gussied up so people can secretly install it on their grandma's computer
19:40	beamso	ubuntu is debian testing with some extras
19:40	ibdknox	majyk: good timing. I released one today: http://www.chris-granger.com/2013/01/24/the-ide-as-data/
19:40	majyk	awesome, I'll read it now. Thank you.
19:40	ChongLi	so we gotta make sure grandma can use her light table without getting library not found errors!
19:41	ibdknox	it's fine on the oldest supported ubuntu (I test on that one) :)
19:41	ChongLi	how else can she look at all her slides from WW2?
19:41	ibdknox	haha
19:41	ChongLi	so how'd you come up with the idea to write your own editor/IDE?
19:42	ChongLi	it seems like a lot of new languages have people that do an IDE project; this is the only one I've seen to attract a lot of attention from outside the community
19:42	ibdknox	ChongLi: I was one of the main interaction designers for Visual Studio for awhile :)
19:43	ChongLi	ibdknox: that's pretty cool
19:43	ChongLi	I've never used visual studio
19:43	ibdknox	apparently they're actually working on some of the things I designed now :p
19:43	ChongLi	yeah it's always satisfying to have people maintain your old code for you
19:44	bbloom	ibdknox: to be released in VS2018, i can only assume
19:44	ibdknox	haha
19:44	ChongLi	"you guys have fun with that, I'm off to do some cool new stuff!"
19:44	ibdknox	bbloom: apparently the UX team got ahold of it... I'm worried.
19:44	ChongLi	not that visual studio isn't cool, I wouldn't know!
19:44	bbloom	ibdknox: nothing good can come from that
19:44	ibdknox	bbloom: only terrible, terrible things
19:45	ibdknox	the guy who headed up UX while I was there was unbelievably bad at his job
19:45	ChongLi	I can see now how imported it'd be to have a cljs compiler be self-hosted
19:45	ChongLi	so you can package it right in light table
19:45	ibdknox	yessir
19:45	ibdknox	which would be wonderful
19:45	bbloom	ibdknox: probably not a good idea to single out an individual publicly :-P
19:45	ibdknox	kanaka is well on his way
19:46	SegFaultAX	Man, that conj2012 talk on functional composition was amazing.
19:46	ibdknox	bbloom: I didn't say any names! And the hierarchy is so deep you could never know ;)
19:46	bbloom	SegFaultAX: is there a list of talk videos somewhere yet?
19:46	ChongLi	SegFaultAX: the one on the goldberg variation?
19:46	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Other than the playlist, I'm not sure.
19:46	ChongLi	http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV/videos?flow=grid&view=0
19:47	ChongLi	ton of videos in there now
19:47	SegFaultAX	But if you haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfsnlbd-4xQ&list=PLZdCLR02grLoyWsKpovatiBYJyf-RKx0c
19:47	SegFaultAX	Amazing.
19:47	ChongLi	Canone Alla Quarta
19:47	bbloom	SegFaultAX: thx
19:47	ibdknox	bbloom: per your HN comment, I just watched that Stu Halloway talk
19:48	bbloom	ibdknox: it was good
19:48	SegFaultAX	ibdknox: I'm looking forward to watching your talk on Light Table. :)
19:48	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Link?
19:48	ChongLi	yeah, right after watching that I went and listened to the Goldberg Variations
19:48	bbloom	SegFaultAX: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Impedance-Mismatch
19:48	ChongLi	they're incredibly beautiful
19:48	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Thank you!
19:48	bbloom	ibdknox: i really enjoyed watching his internal struggle between confidence and humility, heh
19:49	ibdknox	haha
19:49	ibdknox	bbloom: yeah, it's an interesting line
19:49	ibdknox	gfredericks: my joke in the talk was dark chair ;)
19:50	bbloom	ibdknox: it takes one to know one, and as someone who suffers greatly from the same ailment, i can say you're still finding the line too, ha
19:50	ChongLi	ibdknox: so will I be able to do things like swap out the tab completion function?
19:50	ChongLi	is that just a behavior?
19:50	jeremyheiler	mae: it looks like you might be able todo it by providing meta data to the class name.
19:50	ibdknox	bbloom: haha yeah, anytime you purport to have solved an overarching problem, you're going to wrestle with it
19:51	ibdknox	ChongLi: yep
19:51	ChongLi	ibdknox: and if I swap it out in a specific tag
19:51	ChongLi	anything that is tagged with that will get the new behavior?
19:51	ibdknox	yep :)
19:51	ChongLi	yeah that's brilliant
19:51	ChongLi	so simple and elegant
19:52	bbloom	ibdknox: i'm curious to see how your tags stuff works out in practice. aspect-oriented anything always requires serious discipline
19:52	bbloom	i guess it works with CSS
19:52	bbloom	but BARELY
19:52	bbloom	:-P
19:52	ibdknox	bbloom: I think that's because in most cases it's hidden
19:52	mae	jeremyheiler: good to know it seems there isnt much on the google about this but i am reading source code at this point lol ; )
19:52	ibdknox	what does an aspect mean?
19:53	yedi	ibdknox: do you update the lighttable download everytime you push a new minor release, or is it just when you post about a new version? (so is the version of lt on lighttable.com still the same one from November)
19:53	mae	jeremyheiler: did you find an example of adding metadata to a classname
19:53	jeremyheiler	mae, same here lol. lines 4036 and 7388 in Compiler.java
19:53	ibdknox	yedi: I only push a new binary if I need to
19:53	mae	kk
19:54	mae	is this 1.4 or master?
19:54	technomancy	gfredericks: http://www.darktable.org/
19:54	jeremyheiler	master
19:54	jeremyheiler	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L4036
19:55	jeremyheiler	I assume something liek this: (gen-class :name ^{javax.persistence.Entity {}} model.Foo)
19:55	ibdknox	bbloom: but yeah, I'm not sure either :) I guess we'll see hehe
19:55	jeremyheiler	mae, i gotta run for a few minutes, let me know what you find, im curious.
19:56	bbloom	ibdknox: i decided to punt on aspects for now. WPF gets away w/o them (besides data templates having type-dispatch)
19:56	bbloom	but it's something i'd like to revisit, especially for fipp
19:56	yedi	ibdknox: any plans to open source the BOT engine separately?
19:57	mae	jeremyheiler: will do
19:58	ibdknox	yedi: at some point I would like to :)
20:00	ibdknox	bbloom: FWIW this is unrelated to the declarative stuff we were talking about a bit ago. I'm not sure aspects belong there. (like you said WPF didn't need them)
20:01	bbloom	ibdknox: precisely. i think the behavior/object stuff you're building is right-on-track for the application layer. i think the aspect stuff likely goes there, rather than the gui toolkit layer
20:01	bbloom	although styles are somewhat aspect-like, i think that templates and prototypical inherence (what WPF calls styles: ie setters) cover the bases more cleanly
20:03	ibdknox	bbloom: yeah, styles are an interesting thing to think about
20:03	bbloom	ibdknox: in most APPLICATIONS ie not DOCUMENTS, you really don't want aspect-oriented style
20:04	bbloom	hence that (extremely poorly named) OOCSS movement
20:04	ibdknox	lol
20:04	ibdknox	yeah
20:04	bbloom	but sometimes there are real aspects
20:04	bbloom	they are usually things like "base font size"
20:04	bbloom	heh
20:04	bbloom	"help, i'm old and need a bigger font" is a very legitimate use case
20:05	ibdknox	trust me. I know.
20:05	ibdknox	:p
20:05	bbloom	i had an evil tester who would just turn on and off random accessibility features
20:05	bbloom	i'd get these insane bug reports: "in the latest japanese build on a turkish windows with high contrast mode set, this thinggy is broken"
20:06	bbloom	really dude?. wtf?
20:06	ibdknox	something I never really considered until I did LT: variations in monitor quality
20:06	bbloom	yeah, you're color pallet was pretty flat
20:06	bbloom	low contrast
20:06	bbloom	palett? i suck at spelling
20:07	ibdknox	don't ask me, German immersion destroyed any hope I have for spelling things correctly :)
20:10	seangrove	bbloom: broke out laughing at that bug report
20:11	ibdknox	seangrove: working at MSFT you see some crazy bugs
20:12	bbloom	do not get me started on turkish. as a programmer: fuck that language
20:13	seangrove	ibdknox: I fear I may never have the pleasure of knowing that first-hand
20:13	seangrove	bbloom: Oh? I have several friends harassing me to go out to Istanbul, and I figure I should pick up some Turkish before-hand
20:13	bbloom	seangrove: http://haacked.com/archive/2012/07/05/turkish-i-problem-and-why-you-should-care.aspx
20:13	ibdknox	one of my favorite actual bugs was when I worked on the editor. For a brief period of time there was a bug that caused deleting auto-inserted whitespace would actually insert 3 tab chars
20:21	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, I see
20:22	seangrove	Yes, I've had some similar problems with Russian, etc.
20:22	seangrove	Bug reports that we were blowing everything up because I was checking to see if the first character of a string was uppercase, or trying to make it uppercase, and that not working well for characters outside of ASCII
21:19	gfredericks	is it a common pattern to have one protocol for _being_ a Foo and another one for being able to be converted into a Foo?
21:19	gfredericks	I feel like I keep running into this
21:21	gfredericks	(e.g., ISeq and Seqable)
21:22	gfredericks	I ran into a similar situation when making a lib for dates; seems weird to extend vectors to the date protocol so that [2013 2 5] is a date, but reasonable to make that convertible to a date...
21:22	seangrove	aphyr: Is there a way from ruby to bulk-submit events?
21:22	seangrove	e.g. client << [{}, {}, ...]
21:32	jeremyheiler	mae: (gen-class :name ^{org.junit.Ignore {}} Foo) definitely works.
21:45	warz	hm, im still trying to figure out how to add the equivalent of a java function annotation in my clojure code
21:47	warz	can this be done in clojure? ive read mentions of it, but i must not be recognizing examples of how to do it, if i see them
21:50	ChongLi	I don't know about annotations
21:50	ChongLi	but you can add docstrings
21:54	ChongLi	or any metadata you want, for that matter
22:04	warz	ive seen a few mailing list posts where people mention that the Programming Clojure book contains examples of how to use annotations, and that it's easy one person said.
22:05	warz	so i'm tempted to buy the book, even though i already bought 2 other clojure books this week. haha.
22:05	ChongLi	https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/0hKOFQXAwRc
22:06	ChongLi	this is from almost 3 years ago
22:08	jeremyheiler	warz, are you trying to add java annotations to generated class files?
22:37	warz	jeremyheiler, i dont know how exactly to phrase what im trying to do because im not very familiar with java or clojure yet, but im writing some clojure code that i am compiling to a jar using ahead of time compiling, so that it can be called from a java application
22:37	warz	in this case, it's a game server, and im writing plugins for it
22:37	warz	in clojure im extending a java class, using gen-class
22:38	warz	and in java, one of the functions i want to overwrite would required an annotation, like @Handler
22:38	warz	and im just trying to do that in my clojure code, somehow
22:41	jeremyheiler	Check this out: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10049060/clojure-attaching-annotations-to-aot-compiled-methods
22:42	jeremyheiler	you do something like (gen-class :methods [^{Deprecated {}} method-name String])
22:43	jeremyheiler	"Deprecated" being java.lang.Deprecated, an annotation.
22:44	warz	hmm, ok i will try that.
23:42	seangrove	Does cljs have a way to provide data for the clojure compiler about param typing?