#clojure – 2012-12-25

2012-12-25

00:19	callen	muhoo: I wasn't aware he had kids.
00:19	callen	muhoo: somebody that tall must have a hell of a time bending underneath a Christmas tree.
00:20	callen	Raynes: it amuses me that all the companies that build on Amazon don't bother build in cross-region failover
00:20	callen	bother to build in*
00:24	muhoo	yikes, now googlecode is giving me 40s
00:24	muhoo	404s
00:25	muhoo	heh, if googlecode was giving me 40s, i'd be spilling them on the ground in honor of all the fallen servers, yo
00:25	Raynes	Hahaha
00:26	muhoo	does googlecode use.... amazon?
00:26	Raynes	Whenever refheap goes down, netflix goes down, so I'm like "Yo, netflix is down too, yo."
00:26	Raynes	They have a team. I have a me.
00:26	muhoo	OK, WHO BROKE THE INTERNET?
00:27	muhoo	seriously, there are some pissed off ops guys all over the world right now getting SMS's at a time they definitely don't want them
00:28	Raynes	Funfact: mics work better if you remember to plug them into the pramp.
00:28	Raynes	preamp*
00:28	muhoo	Raynes: setting up for a gig?
00:28	Raynes	Sure
00:28	Raynes	I've got a crowd of one person. Me in the mirror.
00:29	muhoo	check 1, 2, check 1, 2. 2. 2. 2
00:32	muhoo	http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324660404578200383908151240.html yep, netflix out too
00:41	Raynes	That awkward moment when you finish a massive vocal performance and realize you weren't recording it.
00:46	bbloom	Raynes: took a shower?
00:46	Raynes	?
00:47	Sgeo	bbloom was thinking you were singing in the shower.
00:47	Raynes	I don't think I'd take a preamp into the shower.
00:59	Raynes	muhoo: Want some Raynesong for Christmas?
01:00	muhoo	sure!
01:00	muhoo	didn't know you were a musician
01:00	Raynes	I'm not, really.
01:00	Raynes	I just like to sing.
01:01	Raynes	And some people tell me I'm pretty good at it.
01:01	Raynes	So yey
01:59	ibdknox	Raynes: I got annoyed with entitlement http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/15cspw/luminus_my_attempt_at_a_clojure_web_framework/c7ltq2b
02:01	yedi	you tell em
02:01	asina12	i am using emacs+nrepl....how do people use it to navigate clojure source code?
02:02	yedi	ibdknox: on a somewhat related note: did you get to check out luminus at all?
02:03	ibdknox	yedi: Raynes and yogthos were talking about it earlier. The template is something he was intending to do anyways and it sounds like the few things that are in luminus right now will get merged into lib-noir
02:14	muhoo	yep, with free software "if it breaks you keep both peices"
02:20	muhoo	the person to fix it can be found by looking in the nearest mirror
02:48	Raynes	ibdknox: Excellent.
02:50	Raynes	ibdknox: Loved every second of it.
02:51	Raynes	Would read again
02:51	ibdknox	lol
02:51	ibdknox	I've been getting this crap a lot lately, and it makes me sad.
02:51	ibdknox	I really, really try to help
02:51	ibdknox	but there's just only so much I can do
02:51	clojurebot	Pardon?
02:51	yedi	even clojurebot is givin you shit
02:52	ibdknox	lol
02:52	Raynes	ibdknox: Don't worry about it. I'll fight the good fight.
02:54	Raynes	ibdknox: I don't blame you for anything. By time you stopped maintaining Noir, I had already switched to Compojure for unrelated reasons.
02:55	Raynes	I maintained Noir (as much as I could) entirely as a service to the community.
02:55	ibdknox	I know, and thanks for that :)
02:55	Raynes	But it just got to be silly.
02:55	Raynes	The batteries included thing doesn't mean much when there are only three batteries.
02:56	ibdknox	and like I said, that whole thing is just a matter of a template
02:56	Raynes	I'm honestly surprised that having to add three deps instead of one is really upsetting people.
02:56	ibdknox	at that point they really are basically equivalent
02:56	bbloom	stop worrying about it guys
02:56	Raynes	Exactly.
02:56	bbloom	there will always be people who love frameworks
02:56	bbloom	they are wrong
02:56	bbloom	but they will always be wrong
02:56	bbloom	and once they learn better, there will be lines of framework lovers right behind them
02:56	bbloom	you'll never win
02:57	bbloom	so just bite your tongues and turn the other cheek and some other cheese sayings... then you'll be happier
02:58	Raynes	I think this template is going to go a long way.
02:58	ibdknox	yeah
02:58	Raynes	I'm going to try to help him with it and get info out there about it.
02:58	bbloom	basically just a lein newnew plugin? :-P
02:58	bbloom	a new newnew?
02:58	Raynes	I'm going to merge his lib with lib-noir in a few days after I look it over.
02:59	Raynes	Gonna be legendary.
02:59	Raynes	bbloom: Just a template for lein-newnew.
02:59	Raynes	lein-newnew is extensible.
02:59	bbloom	right, a new newnew template
02:59	Raynes	Yes.
02:59	bbloom	heh
02:59	ibdknox	the new newnew's new template for the new lib-noir style of writing new websites
03:02	Raynes	ibdknox: You know, both 4clojure and refheap use lib-noir+compojure
03:02	Raynes	Have for quite a while.
03:02	Raynes	It's pretty great.
03:02	ibdknox	:)
03:02	Raynes	Noir really had some great libraries.
03:03	ibdknox	eh, they're very simple :)
03:03	Raynes	They're still great though.
03:03	Raynes	I'm happy to replace sandbar's stateful sessions.
03:04	ibdknox	yeah, he dropped that a long time ago
03:04	ibdknox	it hadn't really been touched by the time I even started Noir
03:05	Raynes	bbloom: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clj-noir/AbAvQuikjGk/mlYuC8ChW44J This sort of thing scares me though, man.
03:05	Raynes	Look at the planned features. At the end, he even lists "??? What else would you like this to do."
03:06	Raynes	Should have named it kitchen-sink
03:06	bbloom	Raynes: hey man, i get it. i built a serious app on rails
03:06	bbloom	it was fucking awesome
03:06	bbloom	until about 6 months later
03:06	bbloom	then it was not so fucking awesome
03:06	bbloom	all-in-one can be really really attractive if you're in a hurry
03:06	bbloom	particularly if it's popular
03:06	ibdknox	I don't think you have to sacrifice that ease though
03:07	bbloom	for all the absolutely horrible, evil, black magic fucking terrible unholy things that rails does
03:07	bbloom	i love rails
03:07	bbloom	it's absurdly productive....
03:07	bbloom	.....at first
03:07	bbloom	and if you're a contract crud web app sort of guy
03:07	Raynes	bbloom: The worst part is the guy replying to the guy I linked said "It's nice to see the Clojure web stack maturing"
03:08	Raynes	I die a little inside when people correlate the library approach to immaturity.
03:08	bbloom	Raynes: like i said: probably better to ignore those people
03:08	Raynes	I want to educate these people. Violently.
03:08	bbloom	however, one of the nice things about the clj community is the refusal to do the dumb things that other communities do
03:08	Raynes	$dict brainwash
03:08	lazybot	Raynes: verb-transitive: To subject to brainwashing.
03:09	Raynes	$dict brainwashing
03:09	lazybot	Raynes: noun: Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
03:09	yedi	what are some of the not so nice things about the clj community
03:09	ibdknox	we don't focus on beginners in any reasonable way
03:09	ibdknox	which is what Noir was originally about
03:10	Sgeo	Does Factor's Furnace count as a "framework"?
03:10	Sgeo	Or as a library?
03:11	ibdknox	yedi: the benefits of Clojure are non-obvious to most and so it ended up drawing a very intellectual and seasoned crowd of people to it
03:11	ibdknox	for most of the guys here, picking up something new is fairly trivial
03:11	muhoo	everyone who doesn't get this topic should watch rhickey's "simple vs. easy" presentation
03:12	muhoo	"i love rails! it's so easy!" .... simple != easy
03:12	Sgeo	http://re-factor.blogspot.com/2010/08/hello-web.html (might be slightly old)
03:12	Anderkent	https://gist.github.com/4372203 has oneone written this before? Macroexpand that does not crash on not-yet-loaded classes
03:12	Sgeo	Hmm, there's a way to make actions besides subclassing :/
03:13	Sgeo	Anderkent, does it work with macros that use &env?
03:13	Anderkent	it passes anything that's actually a macro on to (macroexpand)
03:13	Anderkent	only handles java interop itself
03:13	Sgeo	Does it do the right thing with '(quote ..... oh
03:13	Sgeo	It's not supposed to recursively macroexpand? Ok.
03:14	Anderkent	no, does the same thing as macroexpand :) Recursive macroexpansion is a bit more difficult, you have to track the lexical scope yourself etc
03:15	muhoo	bbloom: actually i'm writing contract crud web apps in clojure. takes me 50 hours to do stuff i could do in 10 hours in rails or PHP, and i only get to bill for 10.
03:16	muhoo	but i get to write in a language i actually like, so, win.
03:16	yedi	muhoo: really? it's that bad?
03:16	yedi	why..?
03:17	muhoo	not bad, i'm just new to clojure.
03:17	muhoo	and, there are so many slap-it-together cut-and-paste libraries available for, say yii or rails, but in clj i have to roll stuff on my own.
03:18	yedi	i c
03:18	muhoo	when it comes to boilerplate apps, working in a language that has lots of boilerplate libraries is an advantage.
03:22	amalloy	Anderkent: your implementation of macroexpand-1 seems to delegate to macroexpand, not to macroexpand-1
03:23	Sgeo	Anderkent, I only know one person who got recursive macroexpansion in Clojure right, and for some reason it doesn't seem to be very plug-and-playable into clojail
03:24	Sgeo	Although I guess it could be argued that it is not in fact right.
03:25	PudgePacket	Can anyone explain why this doesn't work ? http://pastebin.com/4d2JmL7D
03:25	PudgePacket	seems like it should, returning a list of string from the str function
03:26	amalloy	,("a" "b" "b")
03:26	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
03:26	PudgePacket	oh
03:26	PudgePacket	i forgot to quote the list
03:26	amalloy	,["a" "b" "b"] ;; or, (list "a" "b" "c")
03:26	clojurebot	["a" "b" "b"]
03:26	PudgePacket	siiiiiiiiiigh
03:26	muhoo	yedi: but i recently had to transform some oddball XML RDP-ish tuples from one service into a completely diffrent JSON format for consumption by a different service, and i was able to do that faster and way more fun in clojure than in anything else i knew.
03:26	amalloy	or, as you say, quote it
03:26	PudgePacket	thanks anyway :P
03:28	muhoo	ok, enjoy your holidaze, all
04:10	dimovich	hello ppl
04:10	dimovich	is there a better way to do (into (into array1 array2) array3)
04:10	dimovich	?
04:10	bbloom	dimovich: by arrayN do you mean a java array? or a clojure sequence?
04:10	dimovich	clojure sequence
04:11	bbloom	(doc into)
04:11	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
04:11	bbloom	,(into [] (concat (range 5) (range 10 15) (range 20 25)))
04:11	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 ...]
04:12	bbloom	dimovich: does that help?
04:12	dimovich	yes, thanks :)
04:12	dimovich	forgot about concat :)
04:12	bbloom	dimovich: you can skip the into, if you don't need a vector
04:12	bbloom	ie just leave it as a lazy seq
04:12	dimovich	ok
04:13	bbloom	or you can use vec
04:13	bbloom	(doc vec)
04:13	clojurebot	"([coll]); Creates a new vector containing the contents of coll."
05:11	francis	Hello all, I'm having an issue figuring out how to quote a form - https://gist.github.com/4372506
05:12	francis	I'd like to accept any arbitrary form, (including quoted) and then use a quoted form in my fn, but I'm not sure how to do that
05:12	francis	thoughts?
05:14	bbloom	(doc symbol?)
05:14	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x is a Symbol"
05:14	bbloom	,'x
05:14	clojurebot	x
05:15	bbloom	,''x
05:15	clojurebot	(quote x)
05:15	bbloom	,(map class ''x)
05:15	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.Symbol)
05:15	bbloom	,(map name ''x)
05:15	clojurebot	("quote" "x")
05:15	bbloom	francis: does that help?
05:16	francis	bbloom: I think so, though I need to try it out first
05:17	francis	thanks
05:17	bbloom	francis: also realize that quoting behaves differently on symbols than it does on other types
05:17	bbloom	,'5
05:17	clojurebot	5
05:17	bbloom	,''5
05:17	clojurebot	(quote 5)
05:17	bbloom	,inc ; a function
05:17	clojurebot	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@166248d>
05:18	bbloom	,(map class [5 '5 inc 'inc])
05:18	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long java.lang.Long clojure.core$inc clojure.lang.Symbol)
05:18	bbloom	notice how 5 and '5 are the same, but inc and 'inc are not
05:19	bbloom	,(map class [5 '5 ''5 inc 'inc ''inc])
05:19	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long java.lang.Long clojure.lang.PersistentList clojure.core$inc clojure.lang.Symbol ...)
05:19	bbloom	,(map class [5 '5 ''5)
05:19	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
05:19	bbloom	,(map class [5 '5 ''5])
05:19	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long java.lang.Long clojure.lang.PersistentList)
05:19	bbloom	,(map class [inc 'inc ''inc])
05:19	clojurebot	(clojure.core$inc clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.PersistentList)
05:19	francis	bbloom: interesting
05:20	bbloom	note that is two apostrophes, not a quotation mark
05:20	francis	noted
05:21	dimovich	hey guys, in enlive, how can I select all nodes with a specific property value of itemprop: (enlive/select html [:div.desc (enlive/attr? :itemprop)]))
05:21	dimovich	how do I specify the itemprop value?
05:25	francis	(when (and
05:25	francis	(= :itemprop (enlive/attr? your-html))
05:25	francis	(= "myvalue" (enlive/get-value your-html)))
05:25	francis	;; do stuff
05:25	francis	)
05:25	francis	dimovich: do mean like that?
05:25	bbloom	francis: please use refheap for multiline snippets
05:25	francis	I'm not sure of the exact enlive fn, but is that what you mean in general sense?
05:26	dimovich	no
05:26	dimovich	<div.desc itemprop="somevalue"> some text </div>
05:26	dimovich	select all nodes that have itemprop=somevalue
05:27	francis	sorry, so you want to use a select with an `and` clause if I'm not mistaken
05:27	francis	hitting docs for exact source
05:27	dimovich	yes
05:27	francis	one min
05:33	Raynes	bbloom: Hahaha
05:33	Raynes	bbloom: He can't use refheap.
05:33	Raynes	:P
05:33	bbloom	down?
05:33	bbloom	heh.
05:33	bbloom	heroku?
05:33	bbloom	sigh
05:33	Raynes	bbloom: It's been down for hours because Heroku because AWS.
05:33	Raynes	It's pretty awful.
05:34	Raynes	Netflix is down too IIRC.
05:34	bbloom	because Heroku because AWS .... because EBS?
05:34	Raynes	Heroku going down for 12 hours at a time is starting to outweigh the benefits of using heroku.
05:35	bbloom	Raynes: i gave up on heroku after 6mo of using it
05:35	bbloom	it's nice, but it's not nice enough
05:35	Raynes	I did it because Heroku would handle DDOS attacks which pastebins are prone to.
05:35	bbloom	heh
05:35	Raynes	But it's almost not worth it anymore.
05:35	Raynes	I pay $20 for SSL that I could have for free on my VPS.
05:35	Anderkent	Well hopefully they'll move to multiple avail. zones eventually
05:35	Raynes	I expect uptime.
05:36	Raynes	I'm okay with a little downtime every once in a while, but yikes, it has been like 12 hours or more.
05:37	Anderkent	but the point of heroku is not the performance, it's the ease of development. Prototyping/beta on heroku then moving directly onto AWS seems like the best bet for me
05:37	bbloom	hmm seems like ELB this time, not EBS
05:37	bbloom	it's usually EBS
05:37	bbloom	since EBS is a terrible idea.
05:38	Anderkent	why do you think so?
05:39	bbloom	Anderkent: the same reasons NFS is a terrible idea
05:39	bbloom	the posix/unix filesystem system api is not designed to be distributed
05:39	bbloom	there are system calls that just don't make sense for a distributed file system
05:39	bbloom	hence the design of plan9's 9p protocol
05:41	bbloom	http://joyent.com/blog/magical-block-store-when-abstractions-fail-us
05:42	bbloom	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P
05:58	francis	dimovich: I would just filter by keys unless you have some other reason to use `attrs?` see: https://gist.github.com/4372608
06:02	dimovich	francis: thanks
06:03	dimovich	I suppose enlive has some built in stuff for this... but this should work too :)
06:05	francis	dimovich: I would imagine it does, but I didn't see anything just quickly looking it over, I don't use it personally and don't know it well enough
06:56	callen	bbloom: good luck telling HN EBS is a bad idea.
06:56	callen	bbloom: they love their fragile magic.
06:56	callen	they get mad if you mention that AWS hasn't been the most reliable thing on the planet.
06:57	Raynes	Oh no, callen's awake.
06:57	callen	Raynes: :(
06:58	Anderkent	so what's the thing that's more reliable than AWS? Self-hosting?
06:58	callen	Anderkent: it's almost more of an architectural question than where your physical machines live.
06:58	callen	Anderkent: one thing is to avoid networked filesystems that aren't very application specific (like EBS)
06:59	callen	another is to mistrust magical load balancing, queueing, or database services (ELB, SQS, RDS)
06:59	callen	further, keeping your machines heterogenous in where they're deployed, with actual procedures in place for cross-geo failover is important
07:00	Anderkent	well, aws does give you different zones for that
07:00	callen	haha, yeah, that tends not to work.
07:00	callen	nice try though. That's been a joke for a long time.
07:00	Anderkent	do tell>
07:01	callen	whenever EBS has gone down, all the sub-zones or whatever of say, US-EAST go down together.
07:01	Anderkent	I mean I havent used AWS on anything large, so I'm really being curious, not attacking you
07:01	callen	there's no apparent separation/damage control
07:01	callen	other downtimes have been datacenter-scale network related, so again, their separation stuff hasn't helped anything
07:01	callen	when I say cross-geo failover, I mean from one end of the world to the other.
07:02	callen	you'd need to have an architecture that is prepared to failover from Virginia to California
07:02	callen	if you're not prepared to do that, have another East Coast provider that isn't AWS
07:02	callen	and failover between those two.
07:03	callen	but going back to my original point, the customers of the companies using AWS (Netflix, Heroku) haven't started getting punished by their customers, so they haven't been incentivized to fix the downtime.
07:03	Anderkent	well that's what I was thinking about, host stuff on EU + one US region, that hopefully gives you something to fail over to>
07:03	callen	I have to say though, Netflix downtime on Christmas Eve is pretty choice.
07:03	callen	Anderkent: hypothetically yes, in practice, nobody takes advantage of that sort of thing.
07:04	callen	which I thought was the original point of AWS, but w/e
07:04	callen	self-hosting could be more reliable. at the very least, Google, Facebook, and Twitter have for the last couple years had considerably less downtime than AWS US-EAST
07:05	callen	it's just that for most companies it wouldn't be because they wouldn't be able to invest in the infrastructure properly.
07:05	Anderkent	most of us aren't google, facebook or twitter though, and building our own datacenters is usually not an option
07:05	callen	that's what I said, yes.
07:05	Anderkent	yeah I type a little slow :P
07:05	Raynes	callen: I think I've already decided to move refheap back to my VPS. It has been down for around 12 hours because of this shit.
07:05	Raynes	Unacceptable.
07:05	Raynes	Heroku's benefits aren't worth this. This is the second time this has happened.
07:06	Raynes	But yeah, going to bed for real now.
07:06	Anderkent	so I don't see any alternatives for middle-size companies, where the app is too large to self-host, but too small to warrant branching into infrastructure
07:06	callen	Raynes: incidentally, I have 3 accounts on Heroku, 2 of the 3 have been HTTP 500'ing on login for the past week.
07:06	callen	Anderkent: I see plenty of alternatives.
07:07	Anderkent	well, there's Rackspace, but i'd rather handle aws occasionally going down...
07:08	callen	Anderkent: Rackspace acquired Cloudkick, so they have a lot of the same tooling now.
07:08	callen	Anderkent: there's a ton of damn decent VPS providers, there's Joyent, etc.
07:08	callen	Anderkent: Joyent is pretty price/performance competitive with AWS and doesn't seem to have the ritualized tri-monthly downtime.
07:09	callen	Anderkent: it may not matter for you to have downtime, but it's a pretty serious matter in my day-to-day to have sustained downtime like this.
07:10	callen	Anderkent: I've gotten intensely unpleasant phone calls in the past over 2-3 minute blips before.
07:10	callen	if I was responsible for a product that'd been down for 12+ hours, I would've started the human sacrifices by now.
07:11	Anderkent	yeah, I haven't seen joyent before, will look into that. I'm rather awerse to rackspace after trying to debug kernel panics with them and finding out their support staff has almost no familarity with red hat, while they enforce the os on anyone using managed hosting
07:12	callen	Anderkent: I use a mixture of Linode, Rackspace, Softlayer, and AWS.
07:12	callen	but nothing "live" to any customers goes on AWS.
07:12	callen	I don't trust them and likely never will.
07:12	callen	only backups, batch work, etc go on AWS.
07:15	Anderkent	heroku are on n. virginia too? That's the region having most issues, isn't it?
07:15	callen	Anderkent: it's almost always NVA that has issues.
07:15	callen	Anderkent: that's also where like 90% of the customers are.
07:15	callen	the secret to using AWS is to never ever use US-EAST :P
07:16	callen	the first time anything is going to break, it'll happen there first
07:16	callen	my AWS stuff is US-WEST
07:17	callen	mostly Oregon
09:16	xeqi	Anderkent, Raynes: you could try openshift
09:26	wkelly	xeqi: have you run anything production on openshift?
09:27	xeqi	nope, I'm weary of a service without prices
09:28	xeqi	wkelly: ^
09:29	wkelly	understandable
09:29	xeqi	though if jcrossley3 or tcrawley\|away get openshift auto-clustering working on it I might be really tempted
09:29	xeqi	well.. I'm already really tempted
09:29	xeqi	* immutant auto-clustering
09:30	wkelly	I haven't met anyone who has really kicked the tires on it, but I enjoyed playing with it
09:30	wkelly	it was nice and easy to deploy clojure to!
09:31	wkelly	I don't know what kind of guarantees you can get about running on different physical hosts and so on for proper clustering
09:39	xeqi	wkelly: thanks, glad to hear from someone whos tried it out
09:41	theadmin	Hello. I want to learn Clojure, but I can't seem to find any decent starters tutorial anywhere. Any kind of LISP is entirely new for me, my only functional language was Haskell
09:42	gfredericks	theadmin: 4clojure.com
09:43	theadmin	gfredericks: Hm, interesting. Thanks.
09:46	wkelly	theadmin: if you are familiar with java, http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html can be helpful
09:46	wkelly	probably even if you are not
09:46	theadmin	wkelly: Am not
09:57	theadmin	gfredericks: Hm, well, I'm messing with http://www.4clojure.com/problem/16 and my solution is: (fn hai [firstName] (str "Hello, " firstName)) but it fails. Can't quite see why.
10:01	terom	theadmin: note rhe "!" at the end
10:01	theadmin	terom: Oh durr
10:06	theadmin	Ok this started to get very confusing
10:37	Anderkent	remind me, bindings are thread local?
10:37	si14__	is it a bug, guys? (name (keyword "/foobar/:baz/bar")) => "bar"
10:38	Bronsa	,(namespace (keyword "/foobar/:baz/bar"))
10:38	clojurebot	"/foobar/:baz"
10:39	si14__	looks like a bug to me.
10:39	bawr	What would you expect?
10:39	Bronsa	why so?
10:39	si14__	I would expect that (name (keyword x)) == x
10:39	Bronsa	(name :foo/bar)
10:39	Bronsa	,(name :foo/bar)
10:39	clojurebot	"bar"
10:40	Bronsa	,(namespace :foo/bar)
10:40	clojurebot	"foo"
10:40	Bronsa	,(str :foo/bar)
10:40	clojurebot	":foo/bar"
10:40	Bronsa	,(name (keyword "foo/bar"))
10:40	clojurebot	"bar"
10:40	Bronsa	,(namespace (keyword "foo/bar"))
10:40	clojurebot	"foo"
10:41	si14__	it's an abstraction leak, isn't it?
10:41	Bronsa	actually is a wanted feature
10:41	Anderkent	Looks more like non-conforming keyword to me? You want to be able to refer to keywords from other namespaces, which you do with a /
10:42	si14__	"keyword" that doesn't escape it's argument?
10:42	si14__	yeah
10:42	si14__	definitely a feature :)
10:43	Anderkent	,(namespace (keyword "Foo" "bar"))
10:43	clojurebot	"Foo"
10:43	Bronsa	err? think about it / is used to separate the namespace from the name
10:43	Bronsa	if "foo/bar" was a valid name, there would be no way to safely parse :foo/bar/baz
10:43	Bronsa	is the name bar/baz or is it baz?
10:44	Bronsa	is the namespace foo/bar or is it foo?
10:44	Anderkent	uh no :foo/bar/baz is pretty easy to parse, :<whatever><space> parses to keyword with name = whatever ?
10:46	si14__	Bronsa: I think Anderkent is right
10:46	bawr	And what about namespaces?
10:46	Anderkent	bawr: name.space/:keyword ?
10:47	Bronsa	i think you may have misunderstood what i was trying to say
10:47	Bronsa	si14__: you are complaining of the fact that in clojure there is no way for "foo/bar" to be parsed as a name
10:48	Bronsa	and I'm telling you that there is a reason why that CAN'T be done
10:48	Anderkent	Bronsa: and the reason is?
10:48	Bronsa	ok, suppose you want a keyword with namespace "foo" and name "bar/baz"
10:49	Bronsa	that would print out as :foo/bar/baz
10:49	Anderkent	oh okay didn't know it puts the : before the ns
10:49	Bronsa	yeah
10:49	Anderkent	weird
10:49	Anderkent	but ok
10:50	Bronsa	if it was the case that a namespaced keyword prited as ns/:bar then it would be possible
10:50	Bronsa	printed*
10:50	Bronsa	but i don't think that'd be a good idea anyway
10:51	si14__	ok, thanks.
10:52	Bronsa	so, the current behaviour of the reader is to take until the last / and consider that the namespace part, and the rest the name
10:56	Anderkent	Any suggestions for large-ish clojure libraries to try my test coverage library on? For now tried incanter and ring, anything else?
11:05	xeqi	Anderkent: could try it on the leiningen source
11:07	Anderkent	nice idea, thanks
11:08	xeqi	or chesire, clojail, compojure, etc. not sure those would be "large" though
11:13	Anderkent	lein master branch is a dev or release branch? Can't run the tests there it seems..
11:15	Bronsa	lein master branch is dev
11:15	xeqi	Anderkent: there is some minor steps required to bootstrap lein atm, https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen#building
11:16	xeqi	though it does require lein1
11:16	xeqi	though I think the tests are failing on master
11:17	Anderkent	i get failures at preview as well ;/
11:17	xeqi	yeah, might bee better to come back to that one :p
11:18	Anderkent	well I should be able to run coverage even with failures, so I'll try and see what happens :P
11:28	xeqi	Anderkent: I wouldn't mind seeing stats on https://github.com/xeqi/peridot or https://github.com/xeqi/kerodon
11:37	Anderkent	think I need to give up on lein as it seems to just call System/exit if I do clojure.test/run-tests instead of running it from via lein test ...
11:37	Anderkent	oh, I suppose I can just not run compilation tests ;p
12:15	Anderkent	How can I add a dependency to a lein project from a lein plugin?
12:16	yedi	postgres and redis seems like a winning duo
12:17	Anderkent	ah, found it, nvm
12:19	Baughn	Does clojure have a different notion of classpath than java?
12:20	Baughn	I ask because.. well:
12:20	gfredericks	no
12:20	Baughn	$ java -cp . -jar ../../lib/clojure-1.4.0.jar
12:20	Baughn	user=> (compile 'boom.core)
12:20	Baughn	FileNotFoundException Could not locate boom/core__init.class or boom/core.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:432)
12:20	Baughn	$ ls boom/core.clj
12:20	Baughn	boom/core.clj
12:20	clojurebot	nstools is a library to reduce repetition in your ns clauses: http://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/
12:23	Anderkent	Baughn: try printing the classpath, see if the dir is on the list?
12:23	Baughn	Anderkent: Sure.. how?
12:23	Anderkent	,(println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
12:23	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getClassLoader)>
12:23	Anderkent	well, it will work for you :P
12:24	Baughn	Hm, that gives just the clojure .jar
12:24	Baughn	Odd.
12:28	Anderkent	try `java -cp '.:../../lib/clojure-1.4.0.jar' clojure.main`
12:28	Anderkent	i'm not sure how -cp and -jar interact
12:28	Baughn	Yeah, that's the trick. They don't.
12:31	yogthos	oh hey I ran into this yesterday
12:31	yogthos	-cp doesn't like jars not being in the same folder
12:32	Baughn	I figured it out. I just need to not use -jar.
12:32	Baughn	Not nice of java to just swallow the -cp, though
12:32	yogthos	no it's not ;)
12:33	yogthos	the way classpath works is not terribly intuitive
12:45	svedubois	How I can translate this line in java to clojure?
12:45	svedubois	filter.setSigma( Double.valueOf( sigma ).doubleValue() );
12:46	svedubois	Is this OK? (.setSigma filter (Double/valueOf (sigma) doubleValue))
12:48	yogthos	looks reasonable
12:49	yogthos	err
12:50	yogthos	(.setSigma filter (Double.valueOf (.doubleValue sigma)))
12:52	edlothiol	still not right, (.setSigma filter (.doubleValue (Double/valueOf sigma)))
12:52	edlothiol	although Double.valueOf(sigma).doubleValue() can be simplified to Double.parseDouble(sigma), I think
12:53	edlothiol	i.e. (.setSigma filter (Double/parseDouble sigma))
12:53	yogthos	you could also thread it, eg: (->> sigma .doubleValue Double/valueOf (.setSigma filter))
12:55	yogthos	I find the threading syntax is a bit easier to follow, since it flattens the expression
12:56	svedubois	It seems that works, but I get an exception:
12:56	svedubois	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: doubleValue for class java.lang.String
12:56	svedubois	I need to import something for doubleValue?
12:57	edlothiol	it should be (->> sigma Double/valueOf .doubleValue (.setSigma filter)), but you should really just use Double/parseDouble
12:58	kovas	anyone doing some xmas coding?
12:59	yogthos	yeah if sigma starts out as a string
12:59	svedubois	Thanks it works!
12:59	yogthos	cool
13:00	Anderkent	kovas: yes :P
13:00	kovas	Anderkent: best present: time to code on fun projects :0
13:01	yogthos	:)
13:02	jonasen	kovas: I'm working on the Java Codeq analyzer.. that's a lot of fun!
13:03	kovas	jonasen: cool! is there a github?
13:03	kovas	I'm working on session
13:04	Anderkent	hah, I'm hacking on a code coverage tool : https://github.com/JacekLach/cloverage . Should be ready for a beta test... :P
13:04	jonasen	kovas: It's at https://github.com/jonase/codeq/tree/java
13:05	kovas	nice. i am ready for the next level of tooling
13:06	ibdknox	relatedly, I'm working on LT :)
13:07	jonasen	kovasb: here's a query https://gist.github.com/4374467
13:12	jonasen	kovas: Session looks awesome! Would love to help out on that project
13:12	kovas	jonasen: thanks!
13:12	kovas	jonasen: theres a bunch of stuff to do :) I think I'm gonna spend some time opening tickets and improving the documentation right now..
13:14	svedubois	I have translate this java code to clojure:
13:14	svedubois	Java:
13:14	svedubois	ImageFileReader reader = new ImageFileReader();
13:14	svedubois	reader.setFileName(input);
13:14	svedubois	Image img = reader.execute();
13:14	svedubois	Clojure:
13:14	svedubois	(defn main [input]
13:14	svedubois	(let [reader ( ImageFileReader.)
13:14	svedubois	img (Image.)]
13:14	svedubois	(.setFileName reader input)
13:14	svedubois	(def img (.execute reader))))
13:14	svedubois	I have problems to convert "img" from java to clojure.
13:14	svedubois	I am not sure that:
13:14	svedubois	Image img = reader.execute();
13:14	svedubois	Is the same that (or even valid):
13:14	svedubois	(def img (.execute reader))))
13:15	Anderkent	it is (assuming it's a top level declaration, otherwise probably (let [img (.execute reader)] ...) is what you want)
13:15	Anderkent	oh, didn't see your earlier example
13:16	Anderkent	what you want is something like
13:16	yedi	session looks sweet
13:16	yedi	is there a demo up somewhere?
13:17	Anderkent	(let [img (-> (ImageFileReader.) (.setFileName input) .execute)] <do something to img or return it>)
13:19	kovas	yedi: will try to get a screencast up in the next few days
13:25	yedi	kovas: let me know when you finish documenting/ticketing
13:27	kovas	yedi: sweet, will do :)
13:32	miloshadzic	is there a recommended test framework for clojure?
13:32	zilti	Anderkent: Wouldn't it be more clear to use .. instead of -> to chain java stuff?
13:33	zilti	miloshadzic: There's the official one built in, and there are several others, but the most mature is probably midje.
13:34	Anderkent	zilti: .. has different semantics - .. chains the results, -> chains the first expression through all statements
13:35	zilti	Anderkent: Oh. Yes, right.
13:35	miloshadzic	zilti, I guess the builtin one will do for now
13:36	miloshadzic	zilti, (thanks)
13:37	zilti	miloshadzic: no problem. But I'd really recommend at least taking a look at both before deciding.
13:38	Anderkent	midje is pretty cool, though I still wrap midje tests in (deftest) so anything that works with clojure.test will work with my tests
13:38	Anderkent	(for example the mvn plugins)
13:38	miloshadzic	zilti, I'm kinda new to Clojure. I use RSpec most of the time in ruby
14:48	zilti	What would be the better variant to search for a function you added in a list with a bunch of functions - to store additional metadata at the fn when adding it or to store the fn at a second place to compare?
14:50	zilti	...or probably even better, to work with hash values.
14:51	svedubois	Is this java to clojure conversion correct?
14:51	svedubois	image = new Image ( 256, 128, 64, PixelIDValueEnum.sitkInt16 );
14:51	svedubois	(def image (Image. (256 128 64 PixelIDValueEnum/sitkInt16)))
14:52	zilti	svedubois: "new" exists in clojure, too.
14:53	svedubois	I get this error: clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn, compiling:(Image.clj:7:20)
14:53	bbloom	svedubois: you're trying to call (256 128...)
14:53	bbloom	you have extra parens
14:53	zilti	(new java.awt.Image 256 128 64)
14:53	zilti	,(new java.awt.Image 256 128 64 PixelIDValueEnum.sitkInt16)
14:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: PixelIDValueEnum.sitkInt16, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:54	svedubois	Thanks, it works: (def image (Image. 256 128 64 PixelIDValueEnum/sitkInt16))
14:54	bbloom	svedubois: for the record, (Foo. x y z) is just shorthand for (new Foo x y z)
14:59	zilti	How ugly is this?
14:59	zilti	(defn remove [arg] (if-not (= (class java.lang.Integer) (class arg)) (remove (hash arg)) (...code...)))
14:59	clojurebot	marg is 1
15:00	zilti	(and what is "marg is 1"?)
15:00	bbloom	zilti: what are you trying to accomplish?
15:02	zilti	bbloom: making a function that removes an entry from a list, and if the argument is not an Integer/hash-value, calc the hash and retry.
15:02	bbloom	(doc remove)
15:02	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."
15:03	zilti	But since Clojure is dynamically typed.
15:03	bbloom	,(map (comp class hash) [1 2.0 "3"])
15:03	clojurebot	(java.lang.Integer java.lang.Integer java.lang.Integer)
15:03	zilti	Yes, I know remove.
15:03	bbloom	ok all integers rather than longs
15:03	zilti	(hash remove)
15:03	zilti	&(hash remove)
15:03	lazybot	⇒ 21755981
15:04	bbloom	so you wish there was some sort of hash-value? predicate?
15:04	bbloom	why are you working with hash values directly?
15:05	zilti	bbloom: I thought it's cheaper to keep only the hash-value of a function instead of the whole function, for when I later want to remove that function from the list.
15:06	bbloom	zilti: have you profiled and found that optimization to be worthwhile? is that even an optimization. with boxing of integers, i wouldn't be so sure
15:08	zilti	bbloom: No, I didn't do that. But I thought it's "ugly" to keep the whole function lying around and all that. But it's probably not worth the effort.
15:09	bbloom	also what are the collision characteristics of clojure's hash function? since it's an integer and not like a 128 secure hash, you need to worry about that
15:09	bbloom	what would be ugly about it? you're not keeping anything "lying around" that's what garbage collection is for
15:09	zilti	&(= (hash (fn[x](* 2 x))) (hash (fn[x](* 2 x))))
15:09	lazybot	⇒ false
15:09	bosie	s it possible that midje's provided only works on calls for the very last function?
15:09	svedubois	How I can obtain the value of image (instead of #<Vector...)?
15:09	svedubois	(.getSize image)
15:09	svedubois	#<VectorUInt32 org.itk.simple.VectorUInt32@3a432ed2>
15:10	bosie	anything i call prior to the last function seems to not get mocked, somehow.
15:10	zilti	svedubois: (. image getSize)
15:10	bbloom	zilti: that's precisely the same as (.getSize image)
15:11	bbloom	svedubois: the vector you're getting back is a java object
15:11	bbloom	you can inspect it with interop, if the itk library doesn't provide a decent toString
15:18	svedubois	Using toString, I obtain this:
15:18	svedubois	(.toString (.getSize image))
15:19	svedubois	"org.itk.simple.VectorUInt32@52c9f3c7"
15:19	bbloom	svedubois: right, the default printing behavior in clojure is to call toString and wrap it in those #<...> things
15:20	bbloom	svedubois: in this case, there isn't a good toString for that function, so you need to inspect the object's fields directly with (.getX vector) or whatever the functions are called
15:22	svedubois	When I use this:
15:22	svedubois	(.toString image)
15:22	svedubois	It prints a long text:
15:22	svedubois	"Image (0x7fc51c0047b0)\n RTTI typeinfo: itk::Image<short, 3u>\n ... Size: [256, 128, 64]\n ... Size: 2097152\n ...
15:23	bbloom	If you want, you can define a print behavior for a foreign type by doing (defmethod print-method VectorUInt32 [obj writer] (print-simple (str obj) writer))
15:23	bbloom	svedubois: what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
15:51	Seba51	Happy Christmas to all of you.
15:52	Seba51	I am learning clojure and have issues to understand a specific problem with macros.
15:52	bbloom	Seba51: ask away
15:54	Seba51	The book uses the following sample for a macro: (defmacro unless [expr form] (list 'if expr nil form)). I am wondering why they do not use (defmacro unless [e f] if e nil f) which seem to work as well
15:54	Seba51	What is the motivation to use list?
15:54	gfredericks	yours seems to work?
15:55	Seba51	Sorry brackets were missing around if
15:55	gfredericks	even so
15:55	Seba51	(defmacro unless [expr form] (if expr nil form))
15:56	gfredericks	ah ha
15:56	gfredericks	that's a little more understandable
15:56	Seba51	(unless true (println "x"))
15:57	gfredericks	try (unless (= 1 2) 42)
15:58	Raynes	Bodil: Worst thing ever is hearing "I tried it, but it didn't work." :p
15:58	Raynes	I'm not currently aware of any bugs in conch, so definitely need reports when people find them.
15:59	Seba51	(unless 1 2) prints nothing
15:59	Seba51	nil
15:59	gfredericks	which you want
15:59	gfredericks	but (unless (= 1 2) 42) should give you 42
15:59	svedubois	When I try to print the Size of an image:
15:59	svedubois	(.getSize image)
15:59	svedubois	I get this:
15:59	svedubois	#<VectorUInt32 org.itk.simple.VectorUInt32@31ac8cf3>
15:59	svedubois	And using toString:
16:00	svedubois	(.toString (.getSize image))
16:00	svedubois	I get this:
16:00	svedubois	"org.itk.simple.VectorUInt32@981f674"
16:00	svedubois	Looking the class getSize is inside VectorUInt:
16:00	svedubois	public VectorUInt32 getSize()
16:00	svedubois	{
16:00	svedubois	return new VectorUInt32(SimpleITKJNI.Image_getSize(swigCPtr, this), true);
16:00	svedubois	}
16:00	svedubois	Is there any easy way to print the numbers of getSize?
16:00	gfredericks	svedubois: refheap.com
16:00	bbloom	svedubois: like i tried to say: you need to call accessor functions on that VectorUInt object
16:01	Seba51	* need a moment to understand the answer *
16:01	bbloom	consult the javadocs or something for the library you're using
16:01	Raynes	Oh great, refheap is actually up now?
16:01	Raynes	I've got moving that thing off of Heroku on my todo list.
16:03	bbloom	i have a bunch of helper functions for working with zippers. i use the main zipper library (require '[clojure.zip :as zip]) but want to move all my helper functions into a separate namespace too
16:03	bbloom	i kinda wish i could do (require '[bbloom.zip :as zip]) and have the zip alias just be like an extended version of the clojure.zip namespace
16:04	bbloom	is there anyway to do that other than to loop over ns-publics and call intern on each?
16:04	Seba51	Having (defmacro unless_ [expr form] (list 'if expr nil form)) and (defmacro unless [expr form] (if expr nil form)), both print the same for (unlessl 1 2) 42
16:05	bbloom	Seba51: consider side effects: (unless true (print "omg!"))
16:05	jonasen	kovas: I've got session running and started to read through some of the code.
16:05	kovas	jonasen: nice. let me know if u have any questions
16:05	jonasen	kovas: I updated to latest clojure/clojurescript/datomic/cljsbuild and it seems to work still
16:06	kovas	jonasen: i just created a bunch of tickets, working on cleaning up / commenting the code
16:06	kovas	jonasen: great, if u make a pull request I'll just update it
16:08	gfredericks	Seba51: what is your understanding about the difference between a macro and a function?
16:08	jonasen	kovas: I also made some trivial clean-up of session.datomic. I'll send you a pull request
16:09	kovas	jonasen: awesome, thanks!
16:10	Seba51	Functions are evaluated immediately
16:11	gfredericks	Seba51: macros are functions on code. Their input is code, and their output is code.
16:11	gfredericks	the definition in the book uses list because it wants to return an if expression, but if expressions are lists that begin with the 'if symbol
16:12	gfredericks	your definition, instead of returning an if expression, either returns the second argument or nil
16:12	gfredericks	and it decides how to do that based on the truthiness of the first argument (expr)
16:12	gfredericks	but that argument is unevaluated code
16:13	gfredericks	so if it is an expression such as (= 1 2), even though it would evaluate to false, as code it is truthy
16:13	gfredericks	(because it is a list)
16:13	gfredericks	,(boolean '(= 1 2))
16:13	clojurebot	true
16:16	bawr	gfredericks: it's only appropriate :)
16:17	gfredericks	https://twitter.com/gfredericks_/status/283581072237789185
16:17	Seba51	I found out, that the smiley (caused by ( = was actually code, but give me a moment to understand
16:17	gfredericks	oh dear smileys
16:17	Anderkent	(=
16:17	gfredericks	I bet that means my counterexample from earlier got missed
16:18	Seba51	yep
16:18	Seba51	;-)
16:18	gfredericks	it was (unless ( = 1 2) 42)
16:18	Seba51	I assumed that you were in happy mood while typing ;-)
16:19	bawr	Seba51: but erh, yeah, what you want to take away from this is that macros are really supposed to emit code. ;P
16:19	bawr	:>
16:19	Seba51	I got it
16:19	gfredericks	bawr: are you trying to condense my ramblings to a helpfully digestable size?
16:20	bawr	gfredericks: I'm distilling them, I guess.
16:20	Seba51	Thanks a lot
16:20	bawr	But that's some good rambling, 10/10 would distill again.
16:20	gfredericks	lerlz
16:22	Anderkent	style question: how do I do nested map/reduce right? example http://pastebin.com/QQdLiv5Z
16:22	jonasen	kovas: thanks for the merge. I might be able to pull of #20 also. Codeq only checks if some known schema attribute is already in the db and otherwise it transacts the schema. Is this what you had in mind?
16:23	kovas	jonasen: i thought it did something more sophisticated with annotating the transaction.. lemme take a look
16:25	gfredericks	Anderkent: besides breaking something out into a separate function, I can't think of a simpler way to do that
16:26	Raynes	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23745600/Screenshots/6uOy.png
16:26	Raynes	Wrong window.
16:30	kovas	jonasen: you're right, it does something very simple for the base codeq schema. I thought I saw something for the analyzer-specific schemas, which also need to be transacted
16:31	bbloom	let me try my question again.... is there any way to turn (:require [clojure.zip :as zip] [bbloom.zip-util :as zipx]) into some similar to this magic fake syntax (:require [(clojure.zip bbloom.zip-util) :as zip])
16:31	bbloom	or even better, do that on the supply side: inside the zip-util namespace
16:31	bbloom	somewhat similar to how python provides __ALL__ that you can fill in
16:31	jonasen	kovas: The analyzers supports schema revisions and when you run codeq it figures out which versions has been transacted
16:32	kovas	jonasen: in any case, i think my plan was to just copy exactly what codeq did in terms of those conventions
16:32	yogthos	maybe you could make a macro which makes a new namespace that uses both and then require it as whatever?
16:32	Anderkent	bbloom: I don't think your magic fake syntax would do what it does (can't have both of them required for one name, can you?)
16:33	yogthos	oh nm it won't be exposed that way
16:33	yogthos	it's too bad you can't cascade dependencies
16:33	Anderkent	I'm not sure what we're trying to do - have one zip namespace with all the functions in it?
16:33	Raynes	bbloom: I'd probably hate you if you did that.
16:34	bbloom	yogthos: yeah, you'd need the macro to expand to a bunch of def forms, which is totally doable
16:34	bbloom	Anderkent: basically
16:34	bbloom	Raynes: why? i have a dozen or so zipper functions that i always use
16:34	bbloom	i keep forgetting which are in zip and which are in zip-utils :-P
16:34	bbloom	it's driving me nuts
16:34	Anderkent	bbloom: how about doing magic in zip-util that reexposes all zip vars under its own ns?
16:34	Raynes	bbloom: The problem is how does the person reading your code know where things come from?
16:34	Raynes	Which namespace?
16:35	Raynes	Anyways, if it is ridiculous namespace magic, it's probably in potemkin somewhere.
16:35	Raynes	$google clojure potemkin
16:35	lazybot	[ztellman/potemkin · GitHub] https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin
16:35	amalloy	yes, potemkin contains exactly the magic bbloom wants to make his code easy to write and hard to read
16:35	Raynes	amalloy: o/
16:36	bbloom	heh: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/blob/master/src/potemkin/namespace.clj
16:36	kovas	jonasen: ok. I guess its not a big functionality improvement to change that then, other than to maybe rename the functions i have
16:36	Anderkent	import-fn seems like the thing bbloom wants to do
16:36	kovas	jonasen: I'm also gonna open some tickets on codeq and lein that might be interesting for you
16:36	kovas	:)
16:36	bbloom	Raynes & amalloy: you really thing it would be bad to have at the top of zip-util a big list of things that are copied from clojure.zip ? doesn't seem like it would make reading it that hard
16:36	jonasen	kovas: except that you'll be able to run the free transactor
16:37	Anderkent	bbloom: that's okay, as for the user they all seem to come from zip-util
16:37	bbloom	you are in myapp.core and you navigate to zip-util and see that zipper is defined as clojure.zip/zipper
16:37	Anderkent	the bad case is where you would have the two namespaces somehow merged in the user ns
16:37	bbloom	yeah, Anderkent i agree
16:37	jonasen	kovas: right now it'll try to transact the schema every time
16:38	Raynes	bbloom: In my experience, it a) makes it difficult to find where vars originate for people reading the code b) makes error messages have ridiculous stacktraces because you're trying to change where something is c) is not worth it.
16:38	kovas	jonasen: not optimal
16:39	amalloy	bbloom: i suggest you read through the source of gloss, trying to track down the original definition point of a few functions randomly chosen while reading the source. if you don't have trouble with that, your users won't have trouble with your zip-util thing
16:39	amalloy	and, you might not. potemkin drives me nuts, but beyond what is rational really
16:40	Raynes	And I think amalloy and I share generally exactly the same opinion on potemkin.
16:41	kovas	jonasen: I've run the free transactor with session, seems to work OK
16:42	jonasen	kovas: sorry, I misread your code. You do check for a schema attribute in connect-database
16:42	kovas	jonasen: ok, I think I had both at one point.. forgetting my own code :)
16:42	mpenet	flatland.useful.ns/alias-ns feels better, it's a good tradeoff between potemkin import-fn and tons of require declarations, as long as you don't abuse that stuff
16:43	bbloom	Raynes & amalloy: i dunno, doesn't seem too evil to me.... although it breaks down when you have bbloom.zip-util and amalloy.zip-util
16:43	amalloy	ugh, alias-ns is worse
16:43	mpenet	oh ?
16:43	Raynes	bbloom: Look at what it takes to make this crap happen.
16:43	Raynes	It might turn you off of it.
16:43	amalloy	it makes it actually-impossible to track down where a function came from
16:44	bbloom	Raynes: i looked at it. it's an ugly copy paste of metadata
16:44	amalloy	i forget the syntax, but: (alias-ns useful.seq) (alias-ns useful.map) (map-vals m f) ;; where does map-vals come from?
16:47	bbloom	i agree with you guys that all of these solutions leave something to be desired, but i think that there is a legitimate use case for composing namespaces....
16:47	bbloom	do you have a better proposal?
16:48	kovas	jonasen: I'm gonna take off for a while, will be on IRC later
16:48	kovas	(hopefully)
16:52	bbloom	there are two use cases: 1) organize the backing code for some public api into multiple files, but preserve one namespace
16:52	bbloom	and 2) alias names locally in a union/merge fashion
16:53	bbloom	the former falls down when you want to extend somebody else's namespace
16:53	bbloom	the latter is slightly more effort
16:53	bbloom	i guess i'll just deal with zip and zipx for now
16:53	bbloom	but i don't have to like it :-P
16:54	Raynes	bbloom: I guess we wont change your mind. I'm just expressing my own hatred for potemkin, because I personally have had a lot of trouble with libraries that use it.
16:54	bbloom	Raynes: and i'm going to trust you on that, but i'm saying that the shortcomings are probably implementation failings, not something inherent
16:54	bbloom	ie the stacktraces suck
16:55	bbloom	or something similar
16:55	bbloom	no?
16:55	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
16:55	amalloy	Raynes: it sounds like you did just change his mind
16:58	Raynes	bbloom: I really don't like the goal, even with a perfect implementation. I prefer knowing exactly where things come from. It's a similar problem to :use
16:58	Anderkent	Raynes: with a good implementation you'll know where stuff came from anyway, it's one extra find-def press more...
16:59	Raynes	Look
16:59	Raynes	I'm right. You're wrong. Just let it go.
16:59	Raynes	:P
16:59	Anderkent	I don't really care if something comes from my.project.internal.maths.discrete most of the time, I just want it under my.project.core
17:00	Raynes	It's easier if you guys stop having conflicting opinions!
17:00	bbloom	Raynes: you're only right because i have bigger fish to fry :-P like making this damn library work at all
17:00	clojurebot	http://haacked.com/images/haacked_com/WindowsLiveWriter/IConfigMapPathIsInaccessibleDueToItsProt_1446B/works-on-my-machine-starburst.png
17:01	bbloom	Raynes: also, i think that many of the problems with it are due to some rough ugly spots in clojure's var/symbol/etc handling
17:01	bbloom	Raynes: the biggest issue is: when do top level forms run inside a file? at compile time or at runtime? on the jvm, there isn't a difference really, but it's a big issue for clojurescript
17:02	bbloom	consider (when false (def x 1))
17:02	bbloom	obviously a stupid edge case
17:02	bbloom	but illustrates the issue
17:02	gfredericks	on cljs that happens at code-load-time, right?
17:03	bbloom	gfredericks: in cljs x would be defined unconditionally
17:03	gfredericks	if(false){_.x = 1}
17:03	gfredericks	wat
17:03	bbloom	wat indeed.
17:03	gfredericks	just because that's how def is handled?
17:03	bbloom	yeah
17:03	gfredericks	sweet
17:05	technomancy	I think nstools addresses most of the problems immigrate is designed to handle, but in a much more elegant way
17:06	bbloom	gfredericks: notice how parsing 'def unconfiditionally modifies the current namespace: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L324
17:06	bbloom	technomancy: what's your opinion on the namespace discussion?
17:07	gfredericks	bbloom: I notice!
17:08	bbloom	gfredericks: it makes me sad, but to fix it, you'd need to have a -main function or something
17:08	gfredericks	bbloom: because gclosure doesn't like top-level code?
17:08	bbloom	gfredericks: no, b/c the top level of clojure complects run and compile time
17:09	bbloom	gfredericks: it's too bad that clojure.core isn't divided up into clojure.core and clojure.compiler or something like that
17:09	gfredericks	so we could do it but we don't want to?
17:09	bbloom	gfredericks: it would be a pretty big breaking change, so not gonna happen
17:10	gfredericks	what would it break? people who rely on (if false (def something))?
17:10	bbloom	gfredericks: it would break any side-effectual code at the top level of a module
17:11	bbloom	the issue is that the environments are different. consider the warn-on-reflection var, which is often set! to true
17:11	bbloom	that var doesn't exist/matter outside the compiler at runtime
17:12	gfredericks	we're talking about fixing (if false (def something)), right?
17:12	technomancy	bbloom: I don't like immigrate. I agree that it can be awkward sometimes, but I think nstools takes care of the awkwardness in a much more straightforward way.
17:13	bbloom	technomancy: are you referring to http://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/ ?
17:13	technomancy	yeah
17:13	Raynes	google code
17:13	Raynes	evil one
17:13	technomancy	maybe it's worse if you use a lot of protocols, but the solution to that is easy: use fewer protocols
17:13	technomancy	Raynes: well the project dates from the days that Clojure was on Google Code
17:13	technomancy	so they get a pass
17:14	bbloom	i use damn near zero protocols :-P
17:14	Raynes	technomancy: I fixeded the bug in laser and I've got a decent test suite that passes. Once I get refheap mostly moved to it, I'll be announcing it on a wider scale.
17:14	Raynes	I'll overthrow the Enlive militia if it kills me.
17:14	technomancy	Raynes: cool. if I find myself needing HTML at some point in the future I'll give it a look.
17:15	Raynes	o/
17:15	technomancy	\o
17:15	Raynes	technomancy: So, after last night I might be moving refheap back to my VPS when I get a bit of time. Don't hate me if I do. :(
17:15	Raynes	I know it isn't all Heroku's fault, but man, 10+ hour downtime...
17:16	technomancy	yeah, can't blame you
17:16	amalloy	those poor folks who wanted to wrap up a paste for their children...
17:16	technomancy	I don't imagine refheap would be much administrative overhead on a VPS anyway
17:17	Raynes	amalloy: It was truly heartbreaking.
17:17	Raynes	technomancy: I moved to Heroku just because of how prone pastebins are to DDOS attacks.
17:17	Raynes	I don't know how to handle that crap.
17:17	Raynes	I could of pastebins have shut down over it.
17:18	amalloy	Raynes: actually i found a christmas present on refheap: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7851
17:18	Anderkent	that last sentence didn't parse
17:18	clojurebot	the previous sentence is false
17:18	Raynes	amalloy: o/
17:20	silasdavis	how can I require an java module from a local jar file
17:20	silasdavis	I have tried copying it to lib
17:20	gfredericks	lein doesn't like that
17:20	gfredericks	lein really wants that jar to be in a maven repo
17:21	silasdavis	ah
17:21	silasdavis	I'll do that then
17:22	silasdavis	how do wildcard requires? zephyr.android.HxMBT.*
17:23	gfredericks	you can't. (:import [zephyr.android.HxMBT OneClass AnotherClass OneMoarClass ...])
17:23	Tolstoy	Trying to get the lein-cljsbuild working, but keep seeing this in by browser log: TypeError: 'null' is not an object (evaluating 'parentElm.appendChild'). Anyone know what's up with that?
17:24	Tolstoy	Otherwise, the clojurescript stuff works.
17:28	Tolstoy	Maybe the instructions have left out a critical assumption. I'm assuming you can do this via an index.html page (as per the ClojureScript wiki doc).
17:29	Anderkent	Can I use memoize to speed up a self-recursive function? How do I refer to the memoized version?
17:31	technomancy	Anderkent: memoization would require stack-consuming recursion; `recur` skips it
17:31	Anderkent	technomancy: not tail recursive I'm afraid
17:31	gfredericks	Anderkent: alter-var-root should work
17:31	bbloom	wouldn't (def f (memoize (fn [x] ... (f y))) be fine?
17:32	gfredericks	bbloom: that too
17:32	technomancy	sure
17:32	gfredericks	wait does it?
17:32	gfredericks	I guess so.
17:33	Anderkent	thanks, that does it
17:33	gfredericks	but we need to use alter-var-root more for technomancy's sake
17:33	technomancy	so I can yell at you more?
17:33	gfredericks	it's what I wake up for
17:34	Anderkent	it's how you wake up
17:34	Anderkent	:)
17:34	technomancy	but I'm fine with non-runtime use of it
17:34	technomancy	~gourds
17:34	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
17:39	zilti	I'll never understand how clojurebot decides when to come up with a random-yet-fitting phrase. There must be a human locked up in that bot's JVM.
18:21	Rich_Morin	In "(fn foo [] ...)", is foo only used to allow recursion?
18:21	danlarkin	sometimes also to allow for easier-to-read stacktraces
18:22	Rich_Morin	point; tnx
18:22	yogthos	it's also what defn does under the covers
18:22	bbloom	Rich_Morin: to clarify, it's very different from (let [foo (fn [] ...
18:22	yogthos	(macroexpand '(defn foo [])) => (def foo (clojure.core/fn ([])))
18:23	yogthos	lol not quite I guess :)
18:23	yogthos	should've read it first lol
18:23	Rich_Morin	tnx all!
18:24	bawr	(macroexpand '(defn foo [x y] x))
18:24	zilti	bbloom: In what is it that different from (let [foo (fn ?
18:24	bawr	&(macroexpand '(defn foo [x y] x))
18:24	lazybot	⇒ (def foo (clojure.core/fn ([x y] x)))
18:24	yogthos	oh nice
18:24	bbloom	zilti: the let establishes a binding available to all future bindings and to the body of the let. where as (fn foo ...) establishes a binding only available inside the fn
18:25	bawr	bbloom: what do you mean "to all future bindings"?
18:25	yogthos	I guess if you rebind it later inside the let?
18:25	bbloom	,(let [f (fn [x] x) g f] (g 1))
18:25	clojurebot	1
18:26	bbloom	,(let [z (fn f [x] x) g f] (g 1))
18:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: f in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:26	bbloom	i mean later bindings in the same let
18:26	bawr	Aah.
18:26	bawr	I see.
18:26	bbloom	lets occur in series
18:26	yogthos	&(let [x 1] (let [x (inc x)] (println x)))
18:26	lazybot	⇒ 2 nil
18:26	yogthos	is that what you meant?
18:28	bbloom	what i mean is that let bindings occur in series, such that each pair is available in the lexical context of the initialization expression, or if the last binding, in the body of the let
18:28	yogthos	ah ok
18:29	yogthos	like let* in cl
18:29	bbloom	yogthos: right
18:29	bbloom	if you need parallel let, like in cl, you can use letfn
18:29	bbloom	which allows for mutually recursive definitions
18:30	yogthos	ah I haven't considered that
18:30	zilti	By parallel let do you mean being able to call functions defined later in the letfn?
18:30	yogthos	I always took clojure style let for granted
18:30	bbloom	zilti: in a letfn, all bindings occur simultaneously and are available in each other's lexical scopes
18:31	zilti	bbloom: Good to know, didn't know that.
18:31	bbloom	yeah, it's very intentional: you only need parallel bindings for mutual recursion. mutual recursion doesn't make sense in data structures, only with delayed evaluation, like in the case of functions: hence letfn
18:32	bbloom	doesn't make sense in PERSISTENT/IMMUTABLE data structures, i mean
18:32	yogthos	today I learned :P
18:32	yogthos	I wondered about letfn before, this makes perfect sense though
18:33	bbloom	in CL, where most of the data structures are mutable, it makes some sense to be able to have mutually recursive pointers occuring. the bindings are established in parallel, but the init expressions are evaluated in series
18:33	zilti	I always thought it to be a "convenience function" but never figured why that very slight gain in characters would justify it :)
18:33	yogthos	ditto
18:33	yogthos	as always it turns out there's a deeper meaning there
18:36	gfredericks	(doc letfn*)
18:36	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:36	gfredericks	,(doc letfn*)
18:36	clojurebot	Huh?
18:36	bbloom	no *
18:36	bbloom	(doc letfn)
18:36	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+) Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body."
18:36	zilti	,(doc letfn)
18:36	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+) Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body."
18:36	gfredericks	bbloom: letfn* is the special form I think
18:37	gfredericks	,(macroexpand '(letfn [(a [] 2)] 42))
18:37	clojurebot	(letfn* [a (clojure.core/fn a [] 2)] 42)
18:37	zilti	Does that * have a special meaning in Clojure/Lisp? I noticed it being used for the composable variants of functions in sqlkorma and Lamina.
18:37	bbloom	gfredericks: the true underlying special forms are an implementation detail :-)
18:37	gfredericks	zilti: it gets used to mean several different things
18:37	bbloom	zilti: x* just means "like x but slightly different"
18:38	bbloom	similar to x' which means "a new value of x"
18:38	bbloom	and x means "x is a dynamic var"
18:38	bbloom	but these are just conventions, not enforced
18:38	gfredericks	bbloom: I thought doc responded to special forms though
18:38	gfredericks	,(doc var)
18:38	clojurebot	Huh?
18:38	gfredericks	&(doc var)
18:38	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- var (var symbol) Special Form The symbol must resolve to a var, and the Var object itself (not its value) is returned. The reader macro #'x expands to (var x). Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#var nil
18:39	gfredericks	&(doc letfn*)
18:39	lazybot	⇒ nil
18:39	gfredericks	hrm
18:40	bbloom	gfredericks: it's a hardcoded hack: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/repl.clj#L18
18:43	tpope	bbloom: I have a proof of concept stacktrace parser. I'm struggling with how to reliably get my hands on the stack trace
18:43	zilti	Hell, we have 2012 and copying files does not ensure them being consistent
18:43	bbloom	tpope: do you ever make anything for clients/employers/etc? or do you just only make awesome stuff for those of us who stalk your github profile?
18:44	yogthos	haha
18:44	tpope	bbloom: I make vim plugins till I'm broke, then take the first shitty rails contract I can get my hands on :/
18:44	yogthos	my trick is to make a project first and then use it at work :P
18:45	tpope	with any luck I'll be able to change that to "first shitty clojure contract" soon enough
18:45	bbloom	tpope: enjoying clojure?
18:45	tpope	so far so good
18:45	bbloom	cool
18:45	tpope	sometimes I feel it's like 5 times too smart for me
18:46	bbloom	ok well what's the stack trace issue? my stack trace skills are weak, but i might be able to provide some insight
18:46	Raynes	I'm of the opinion that if you can do vimscript, you're smart enough for Clojure
18:46	bbloom	tpope: nah, you just need to unlearn so many things you take for granted. it's just different
18:46	yogthos	it is for sure
18:46	yogthos	but it's really self consistent which helps a lot
18:46	tpope	bbloom: I want to make it so that if evaling something gives an error, the stack trace is prepopulated into the location list
18:46	yogthos	you learn one concept and you can just apply it everywhere :)
18:47	tpope	makes sense, right?
18:48	tpope	Raynes: I remain optimistic
18:48	tpope	bbloom: biggest challenge. how do I get the stack trace out of nrepl?
18:49	tpope	I can eval (.getStackTrace e), but then I've stepped on 1, etc
18:50	Raynes	tpope: (def temp 1) (.getStackTrace e) (def *1 temp)
18:50	bbloom	Raynes: that would modify 2 and 3 :-P
18:50	tpope	yeah
18:50	Raynes	Fix them all.
18:50	Raynes	Rawr.
18:50	tpope	plus now I've dumped a temp var in the user's repl
18:50	bbloom	tpope: probably should ask cemerick, since *e etc are repl features
18:50	bbloom	not evaluator features
18:51	Raynes	tpope: That's what gensyms are for.
18:51	tpope	I could gensym it or something, but this is starting to get hairy
18:51	Raynes	Hacks are hack.
18:51	bbloom	nrepl provides multiple different commands other than "eval" right?
18:51	tpope	yes
18:51	tpope	I haven't exhaustively searched them
18:51	bbloom	is there a "get-var" command?
18:52	tpope	I guess I should
18:53	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/doc/ops.md
18:53	tpope	yeah just remembered where it was
18:53	tpope	I don't see anything
18:54	bbloom	tpope: you could clone the session and then eval whateve ryou want
18:54	tpope	ooh, cloning might work
18:54	bbloom	clone, eval, close
18:54	tpope	convoluted, but cleaner
18:54	bbloom	mmm immutability :-)
18:54	bbloom	cheap clones
18:54	bbloom	no idea what actually happens when cloning
18:55	bbloom	but i assume clone works
18:55	yogthos	presumably just a reference ;)
18:55	yogthos	and then it modifies its own tree from there right
18:55	bbloom	yogthos: right, my concern would be what happens with :stdin and :stdout
18:55	yogthos	mmm good point
18:58	bbloom	hmmm tpope, actually clone may not help
18:58	bbloom	,#'*1
18:58	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/*1
18:58	tpope	what are the odds on that may?
18:58	bbloom	they might be dynamically rebound, such that each session gets their own
18:59	bbloom	but otherwise they are global mutable cells, rather than session data
18:59	bbloom	which seems odd, i'd assume nrepl needs to support multiple different *1
18:59	bbloom	so i'd say it has like an 85% chance of working :-)
18:59	tpope	I estimate a half hour of bumbling around just to try it :/
18:59	bbloom	,(:dynamic (meta #'*1))
18:59	clojurebot	true
19:00	bbloom	ok, 92% chance of success
19:00	bbloom	:-)
19:03	tpope	cool, foreplay shits itself on the nrepl source
19:04	bbloom	mmm metacircular
19:44	tpope	bbloom: doesn't work
19:44	bbloom	sad day :-(
19:44	bbloom	why not?
19:44	tpope	bbloom: also found https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/9b1fc6807cf87ad487887b1701abd1462028f635/src/test/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/sanity_test.clj#L113-134 :(
19:45	tpope	*e is nil in the cloned session
19:45	bbloom	tpope: seems like a bug
19:46	tpope	I suppose I could open an issue. A nice little xmas gift for cemerick
19:46	bbloom	tpope: tools.nrepl is tracked w/ jira
19:46	tpope	oh boy!
19:46	bbloom	dev.clojure.org
19:47	bbloom	i think you need a signed contributor agreement to open an issue there
19:47	bbloom	might be best to just email him :-P
19:47	tpope	I'll grab him in the channel sometime
19:47	bbloom	k
19:54	hyPiRion	bbloom tpope: No need to sign a CA for issue reporting
19:54	bbloom	ah ok thanks hyPiRion
19:54	tpope	cheers
19:54	hyPiRion	Just create an account there, and describe the issue :)
19:54	bbloom	hyPiRion: but you still do need to deal with jira :-P
19:55	tpope	this is less an issue and more a question anyways
19:55	hyPiRion	Ah
19:57	ravster	hello everyone
19:57	hyPiRion	hey
20:11	zilti	Here's my first "production-ready" micro-library: https://github.com/zilti/cynomys
20:28	mindbender1	library authors, is there a significant perf diff in using sth
20:28	mindbender1	like (foo {:bar ["baz"]}) as opposed to (foo :bar ["baz"])
20:29	yogthos	depends on how you use it I find
20:29	yogthos	if you want to pass in some parameters I'd use it the second way
20:30	mindbender1	yogthos: so what has been your finding cos I see a pervasice use of (foo :bar ["baz"]) among many clojure authors
20:30	mindbender1	whereas I expect idiomatic usage of (foo {:bar ["baz"])
20:30	yogthos	well for example in my markdown-clj lib I do this for allowing specifying a code style tag (md-to-html "```code```" :code-style #(str "class=\"" % "\"")))
20:31	yogthos	if it's something that specifies the environment options for example
20:31	yogthos	I find people tend to use the :flag foo notation
20:31	Raynes	Bahahaha
20:32	Raynes	yogthos: I forgot that you're the dude who did markdown-clj.
20:32	yogthos	:P
20:33	Raynes	So now I have to explain myself.
20:33	yogthos	hehe
20:33	yogthos	lol you opened a couple of bugs on it too :)
20:34	Raynes	yogthos: So, I complained about you using markdown-clj in lib-luminus.
20:34	yogthos	yeah you said you use pegdown for refheap right?
20:35	Raynes	yogthos: The primary reason why is because pegdown is just so great. It supports a whole bunch of extensions. It isn't that markdown-clj is bad as much as pegdown does more and is concisely used from Clojure. I'm not even sure it'd be worth writing a wrapper library for it, but it might be because extensions are calculated using bit-or which might confuse Clojure people not coming from Java.
20:36	Raynes	Is there a big reason for markdown-clj? Some reason pegdown wasn't sufficient?
20:36	yogthos	main motivation was to make something that runs both in clojure and clojurescript :)
20:36	yogthos	for example in my blog I want to preview posts/comments
20:36	yogthos	and if you have a different js implementation of markdown it's not guaranteed to look the same when the server renders it
20:37	yogthos	but yeah it's not nearly as featureful as pegdown
20:37	Raynes	That makes sense.
20:37	yogthos	thanks :)
20:37	yogthos	lol originally I did it for lulz
20:38	mindbender1	yogthos: what would have been the difficulty if you have chosen the other implementation because that is stillgoing against Rich Hickey's I don't know I don't want to know
20:38	yogthos	I read a post from Brian Carper about how he used a rhyno to run js interpreter for his blog to make sure md rendered the same
20:38	Raynes	yogthos: Anyways, I just wanted to explain my reasoning, since I was pretty mean about it yesterday.
20:38	yogthos	so I was like can't be that bad to parse md, turns out it's not trivial to do it right :P
20:39	yogthos	no prob dude, I'm actually surprised it got as popular as it did
20:39	yogthos	all of a sudden people started starring it on ghub and I was like ok I guess I should fix it up so it's not completely lame :P
20:39	mindbender1	Same question goes to others
20:40	mindbender1	all these is still not heloing with the order problem
20:40	mindbender1	helping
20:40	Raynes	yogthos: I think I'll throw together a little wrapper library for pegdown.
20:40	yogthos	yeah that'd be cool
20:40	Raynes	And perhaps use that in lib-noir, adding an optional extensions arg to md->html
20:40	yogthos	pegdown is pretty slick for sure
20:41	yogthos	that'd be nice, I moved the function to the template for now btw
20:41	Raynes	Well that'd be fine too.
20:41	yogthos	but yeah I was thinking about it
20:41	yogthos	I think it'd be best to keep libs in lib-noir and config in the template
20:42	yogthos	this way it makes updating libraries easier
20:42	Raynes	A pegdown wrapper would still be useful though. I had an issue with it and numbers a while back that I had to fix by explicitly wrapping something in (int ..) but most people would just give up and not use pegdown, thinking it broken.
20:42	yogthos	if too much stuff gets into template, then people are gonna have a hell of a time upgrading their apps
20:42	Raynes	So I'll still do that either way.
20:42	yogthos	yeah let's get a pegdown wrapper in lib-noir and I'll move md->html back there after :)
20:43	ibdknox	a pegdown wrapper should be its own lib
20:43	Raynes	ibdknox: Duh.
20:43	yogthos	right yeah, we include the lib in lib-noir :)
20:43	Raynes	ibdknox: Always planned for a separate library.
20:43	ibdknox	yogthos: in terms of using md in cljs, I just use some the JS markdown things
20:43	ibdknox	righto
20:43	Raynes	ibdknox: Go back to light table and leave the lib-noring to me.
20:44	Raynes	:P
20:44	Raynes	ibdknox: (totally kidding)
20:44	ibdknox	lol
20:44	yogthos	hehe
20:44	ibdknox	see.. Raynes is mean.
20:44	Raynes	ibdknox: His reasoning for having a lib that works in both places is so that markdown renders the same.
20:44	Raynes	The problem is that markdown sucks because it doesn't have a standard that everyone follows.
20:44	ibdknox	ah
20:44	Raynes	Otherwise this wouldn't be a problem.
20:44	ibdknox	indeed
20:44	yogthos	the whole thing stemmed from this http://briancarper.net/blog/415/clojure-and-markdown-and-javascript-and-java-and
20:45	yogthos	that's the beauty of md it's such a loose "standard" :)
20:45	yogthos	every implementation does it a bit different
20:45	ibdknox	well maybe Jeff Atwood 's quest will succeed
20:45	yogthos	haha
20:45	Raynes	You see beauty in strange things, sir.
20:45	ibdknox	It would be nice if it did
20:46	yogthos	mindbender1: what was the question btw?
20:46	Raynes	It sure would.
20:46	yogthos	the worst thing about md is that it has redundant syntax for no apparent reason, like stwo eparate heading declarations
20:47	ibdknox	yeah
20:47	yogthos	and list behavior is largely undefined
20:47	yogthos	what can go inside lists, how the spacing works, etc
20:47	ibdknox	I love doing things with GFM though
20:47	yogthos	btw could also link this in lib-noir :) https://github.com/yogthos/clj-pdf
20:48	yogthos	I was looking through django features
20:48	yogthos	and they have a pdf renderer
20:48	yogthos	can be nice for some stuff like reporting
20:49	ibdknox	I wonder if it just makes sense to point to these sorts of things in some canonical up-to-date place on webnoir
20:49	ibdknox	that's largely the problem
20:49	ibdknox	it's impossible to find this stuff
20:49	yogthos	yeah I know
20:49	yogthos	actually I heard from clojars guys that they plan to add number of downloads stats for libs
20:49	yogthos	that would help a lot
20:49	ibdknox	yes it would
20:49	yogthos	cause then you can see which libs people are using and what the health status is
20:50	yogthos	maybe could also show the frequency of updates
20:50	yogthos	and then you could sort by that :P
20:50	yogthos	I really think this has to be some automated feature not people aggregating libs by hand on some site
20:50	yogthos	that's just not sustainable
20:50	bbloom	yogthos: i wish github would bring back traffic stats too!
20:50	ibdknox	bbloom: me too
20:50	yogthos	yeah I know!
20:51	bbloom	the one down side to the automated approach is that it benefits incumbents
20:51	yogthos	but yeah seing how lein is the pretty much defacto standard it makes sense to track it through clojars
20:52	yogthos	true, but you could have different filters too, like activity
20:52	yogthos	new libs will have more activity than mature ones for example
20:52	yogthos	and it could give a combined weighted score too when sorting
20:53	bbloom	yogthos: i'd want to sort by the first differential of the number of new projects depending on that lib :-)
20:53	bbloom	ie show me what people are switching to
20:53	yogthos	that's a good idea
20:55	mindbender1	yogthos: I'm just saying work hard to hide implementation details
20:56	yogthos	yeah that I definitely agree with
20:56	yogthos	what's the context though?
20:57	mindbender1	It's just that when I see that form of order I ask myself why couldn't amap work here
20:59	yogthos	ah
20:59	mindbender1	like they say eventual consistency is hard for programmers
21:00	yogthos	I don't think it's that bad in this particular context though, optional flags come at the end is not a bad convention
21:00	mindbender1	those can work in maps too
21:00	yogthos	and it does make it a bit more readable I find, but admittedly not that much
21:00	mindbender1	they are very open
21:01	mindbender1	it allows your code to work in a threaded program
21:02	yogthos	I think it does mostly come down to aesthetics
21:02	yogthos	and realistically, you still have to read the docs to know what to pass in
21:02	yogthos	so it's not that using a map is going to make that any better
21:03	mindbender1	but then you remove the order
21:03	mindbender1	and save users the headache of syntac
21:03	mindbender1	syntax
21:03	yogthos	true, but I think the headache is mostly perceived in this case no?
21:04	mindbender1	when it builds up with other programs
21:05	yogthos	can you give an example of what you mean?
21:05	mindbender1	when I think of your syntax with a gazillion other syntax I have to think about
21:06	yogthos	but there's not much syntax in clojure to being with to be fair
21:06	yogthos	I keenly feel that point when working with scala for example
21:06	yogthos	every 5 min or so I end up googling how to do this or that correctly
21:06	mindbender1	actually I was reading pallet before I came here to whine
21:06	yogthos	hehe
21:07	mindbender1	so? clojure authors seem to want to make sure it arrives
21:08	mindbender1	Actully I don't even know why project.clj adopted a similar syntax
21:09	mindbender1	maybe we should stop using maps
21:09	yogthos	well you kind of need actual maps in most cases
21:10	yogthos	thing that bothers me more is the cons/conj behavior :)
21:10	mindbender1	have you listened to stu's data oriented programming
21:11	yogthos	yup
21:11	mindbender1	I think he shared some luv there
21:24	gfredericks	it disappoints me sometimes that clojure maps aren't Comparable
21:24	gfredericks	is no comparator better than an arbitrary one?
21:25	gfredericks	I always enjoyed erlang's built-in total-ordering-over-all-types
21:25	gfredericks	I guess there could be no efficient ordering
21:26	gfredericks	erlang doesn't have maps :)
21:26	hyPiRion	how would you compare them?
21:26	yogthos	well you could check how many keys match?
21:26	yogthos	but that's definitely expensive
21:27	gfredericks	ignoring the efficiency question, it could be anything.
21:27	hyPiRion	Well then, what's the value of sorting them?
21:27	yogthos	so the more keys match the closer they are to each other, there's definitely situations where that can be useful
21:27	yogthos	any sort of fuzzy logic
21:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I'm often interested in canonical representatives in sets of maps that aren't in a particular order
21:28	gfredericks	e.g., from a db query
21:28	yogthos	that's actually a good example, say you have users in db and you want to find duplicates
21:28	gfredericks	yogthos: first compare (sort (keys m1)) with (sort (keys m2)), then if those are equal do the same with the values; that depends on both keys and values being comparable though
21:29	yogthos	yeah it's not hard to implement ;)
21:29	bbloom	i think the fact that it's not obvious how to compare them implies that, yes, no comparer is better than an arbitrary one
21:29	gfredericks	but I imagine that a vector's comparability depends on its entries as well
21:29	gfredericks	,(sort [[] [2] [4]])
21:29	clojurebot	([] [2] [4])
21:29	gfredericks	,(sort [[] [{2 2}] [{}]])
21:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
21:29	gfredericks	yep
21:30	gfredericks	bbloom: well if it were obvious how to compare them then there'd be no reason to suggest an arbitrary one; my point was that an arbitrary ordering can have utility, even if it's an inscrutible black box
21:31	yogthos	I suspect that could lead to some hard to track down errors too though
21:31	hyPiRion	It's more evident to write, say
21:31	hyPiRion	,(sort-by count [{} {:a 4} {:a :b :c :d}])
21:31	clojurebot	({} {:a 4} {:a :b, :c :d})
21:31	hyPiRion	than just sort.
21:32	hyPiRion	I guess that's why, mostly.
21:32	gfredericks	hyPiRion: certainly in situations where you care how it's sorted, yes
21:33	gfredericks	oh wait wouldn't c.c/hash allow a usually-efficient ordering?
21:33	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I was just thinking about that
21:34	hyPiRion	It's consistent, as long you don't have mutables within the maps
21:34	gfredericks	which is lame to begin with
21:34	hyPiRion	AND it's totally ordered, sans collisions.
21:34	gfredericks	on collisions you just do some difficult slow thing
21:35	hyPiRion	another hashing
21:35	hyPiRion	with different algorithm
21:35	gfredericks	or just compare (sort m1) with (sort m2)
21:36	gfredericks	haha would that be (sort-by sort my-maps)? :D
21:36	gfredericks	,(sort-by sort [{:a 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {} {:a 12}])
21:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.ArraySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
21:36	hyPiRion	nope, more like..
21:37	gfredericks	consarnit
21:37	gfredericks	,(sort-by (comp vec sort) [{:a 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {} {:a 12}])
21:37	clojurebot	({} {:a 12} {:a 12} {:c 15, :b 17})
21:37	gfredericks	there it goes
21:37	hyPiRion	Gosh darnit, I need two maps with the same hash to test it out
21:38	hyPiRion	,(sort-by (comp vec sort) [{:a 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {} {1 12}])
21:38	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Keyword>
21:38	gfredericks	oh the hashing does give you more flexibility about types doesn't it
21:38	hyPiRion	,(mapv hash [{:a 0} {:a nil}])
21:38	clojurebot	[1013910569 1013910569]
21:38	hyPiRion	right.
21:39	gfredericks	(def other-hash (comp hash pr-str))
21:39	hyPiRion	Blugh, hahah.
21:39	hyPiRion	,(sort-by (comp hash pr-str) [{:a 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {} {1 12}])
21:39	clojurebot	({:a 12} {1 12} {} {:c 15, :b 17})
21:40	hyPiRion	Actually, god damnit
21:40	hyPiRion	,(sort-by pr-str [{:a 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {} {1 12}])
21:40	clojurebot	({1 12} {:a 12} {:c 15, :b 17} {})
21:40	gfredericks	lerlz
21:40	hyPiRion	That's totally ordered, too.
21:41	hyPiRion	,(sort-by pr-str [{2 12} {:b 17 :c 15} {1 13} {1 12}])
21:41	clojurebot	({1 12} {1 13} {2 12} {:c 15, :b 17})
21:41	gfredericks	unless you want it to distinguish between types that print the same
21:41	hyPiRion	Well, if you're that guy, then fuck you.
21:41	gfredericks	yeah fuck him
21:41	hyPiRion	Because this is good enough
21:41	gfredericks	alright go commit it to core so we can make it into 1.5
21:42	gfredericks	we've hammock'd enough
21:42	hyPiRion	Yeah, rhickey would surely add this in
21:42	yogthos	rofl
21:42	hyPiRion	Foolproof.
21:43	gfredericks	it doesn't have the erlang elegance where the ordering of X and Y where X and Y are different types is dependent only on the types
21:43	gfredericks	I think couchdb does that too
21:43	hyPiRion	I'm working on a patch now
21:43	gfredericks	it helps to have a closed set of types
21:44	gfredericks	if we get into class names then we'll conflict with clojure's multiple-classes-per-datastructure approach
21:46	bbloom	there is no mutually exclusive list of protocols, which is on purpose
21:46	bbloom	you can have a map that is also a vector, if you really wanted to
21:46	bbloom	in fact, vectors already are maps....
21:46	gfredericks	sorta?
21:46	gfredericks	,(map? [3 4])
21:46	clojurebot	false
21:46	gfredericks	so not in every sense at least
21:46	hyPiRion	Vectors aren't maps
21:47	bbloom	(doc map)
21:47	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
21:47	bbloom	(doc map?)
21:47	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements IPersistentMap"
21:47	bbloom	,(instance? IAssoc [3 4])
21:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: IAssoc in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:47	bbloom	,(instance? IAssocative [3 4])
21:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: IAssocative in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:47	gfredericks	bbloom: clojure.lang maybe
21:47	bbloom	,(instance? IAssociative [3 4])
21:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: IAssociative in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:47	bbloom	,(instance? clojure.lang.IAssociative [3 4])
21:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.IAssociative, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:47	hyPiRion	Vectors has an ordering, whereas maps have no ordering
21:48	gfredericks	hyPiRion: that's not a convincing argument
21:48	bbloom	dur, no I
21:48	bbloom	,(instance? clojure.lang.Associative [3 4])
21:48	clojurebot	true
21:48	bbloom	,(instance? clojure.lang.Associative {3 4})
21:48	clojurebot	true
21:48	bbloom	,(assoc [0 1 2 3] 2 :omg)
21:48	clojurebot	[0 1 :omg 3]
21:48	gfredericks	hyPiRion: vectors behave similarly to maps in some cases, as bbloom is demonstrating
21:49	gfredericks	,(dissoc '[a b c d] 3)
21:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentMap>
21:49	hyPiRion	Clearly.
21:49	gfredericks	hyPiRion: sorted-maps are also ordered
21:50	bbloom	the point i'm making is that you can't sort by type like you can in erlang b/c erlang has a closed set of mutually exclusive types
21:50	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah, I was sort of realizing the same thing
21:50	bbloom	effectively there is one type: a discriminated union of each of the primitive types
21:50	gfredericks	about fifteen inches up
21:51	bbloom	honesly, if i had my way, it wouldn't be possible to compare two things of different types at all. at least not without first promoting them to some other type that can represent all possible values for the types of both arguments
21:53	bbloom	which is sorta what happens defacto anyway
21:53	hyPiRion	You got what you wanted then, hurray
21:53	bbloom	,(compare :foo 'foo)
21:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Keyword>
21:53	bbloom	,(compare 'foo :foo)
21:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
21:54	gfredericks	,(compare [1 2 3] (subvec [1 2 3] 1))
21:54	clojurebot	1
21:54	bbloom	gfredericks: logically speaking, you're promoting to sequences
21:55	gfredericks	,(compare (seq [1 2 3]) (seq (subvec [1 2 3] 1)))
21:55	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
21:55	gfredericks	gotcha
21:55	hyPiRion	Huh
21:55	hyPiRion	"throw Util.sneakyThrow(e);" <<-- Within Clj source
21:55	hyPiRion	That guy, he's sneaky.
21:56	bbloom	gfredericks: heh, i'm actually surprised by that
21:56	bawr	XD
21:56	gfredericks	bbloom: phew. I thought I would get accused of ignoring your word "logically"
21:57	bbloom	gfredericks: ok fine, logically promoted to clojure.lang.Sequential
21:57	bbloom	which apparently isn't comparable either lol
21:57	gfredericks	well it's an interface
21:57	gfredericks	I guess it could extend comparable, eh?
21:58	bbloom	now i wonder: why aren't seqs comparable?
21:58	gfredericks	maybe the idea was that potentially infinite types shouldn't be comparable
21:58	hyPiRion	bbloom: They may be lazy and infinite.
21:58	hyPiRion	Have fun comparing that
21:58	bbloom	hyPiRion: dur. of course that makes perfect sense
21:58	gfredericks	,(compare (range) (rest (range)))
21:58	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
21:58	gfredericks	,(compare (vec (range)) (vec (rest (range))))
21:59	hyPiRion	hah.
21:59	bbloom	gfredericks: poor little clojurebot
21:59	bbloom	he works so hard
21:59	gfredericks	what does an eval server do for timeouts? Isn't killing a thread supposed to be unsafe?
21:59	bbloom	gfredericks: java have timeout security context feature thinggies
22:00	gfredericks	slick
22:00	bbloom	&(compare (vec (range)) (vec (rest (range))))
22:00	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
22:01	gfredericks	,(println "yo?")
22:01	clojurebot	yo?
22:01	gfredericks	phew
22:01	bbloom	you didn't kill it :-P
22:02	gfredericks	we have had 0 days since the last (println "yo?")
22:07	hyPiRion	gfredericks: https://github.com/hyPiRion/clojure/commit/4ef68dc957efa8fb4ade95260cade47a93880ddf
22:08	hyPiRion	Now you have sortable maps
22:08	hyPiRion	Too bad it killed sorted-map though, all the sorted-map tests failed it seems.
22:08	gfredericks	if you're not breaking sorted-map you're not doing real work
22:08	gfredericks	that's what my grandma always used to say
22:09	hyPiRion	Good thing I'm doing real work then!
22:09	gfredericks	haha I love that commit message
22:10	hyPiRion	It sounds like that's a feature, not a bug
22:11	hyPiRion	"1.5: sorted maps are now not only deprecated, they also have completely undefined behaviour"
22:14	gfredericks	"1.5: the syntactic role of parentheses and square-brackets have been swapped everywhere."
22:14	gfredericks	I wonder how much change in the java code that would require
22:15	hyPiRion	[let ((a b) (2 3)) [+ a b]] => 5
22:15	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Probably two lines
22:15	gfredericks	hyPiRion: and then a gsub or something over all the clj files
22:15	hyPiRion	Well, four,
22:15	hyPiRion	Oh lordy
22:16	hyPiRion	That's my new goal
22:16	yogthos	fork clojure and swap square brackets and parens? :P
22:17	gfredericks	hyPiRion: name in Dlojure
22:17	bawr	Why are sorted maps deprecated? :<
22:17	yogthos	I think we're on to something here :P
22:17	bbloom	bawr: they aren't. these guys are just joking around
22:18	bawr	Go deeper. ()->{}->[]->\|\|
22:18	bawr	ELIMINATE PARENS ALTOGETHER.
22:18	yogthos	or you could just do what scheme does and make them interchangable :P
22:19	hyPiRion	bawr: Sweet idea
22:19	bawr	Oh, the wonderful ambiguities of trying to swap [] with one token. xD
22:19	gfredericks	(defmacro with-silly-delimeters [& forms] `(do ~@(map (partial wk/postwalk #(cond (vector? %) (list %) (seq? %) (vec %) :else %)) forms)))
22:19	yogthos	you could name it dylan :)
22:19	yogthos	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_(programming_language)
22:20	hyPiRion	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L91-94
22:20	amalloy	gfredericks: you probly want list*
22:20	bawr	hyPiRion: But once that proves to be impossible, hey. []-><> can work, too.
22:20	yogthos	4 lines it is
22:20	gfredericks	amalloy: ah that's why it doesn't work
22:20	gfredericks	that did it
22:21	hyPiRion	It's amazing that all these Clojure things I just joke around with makes me so knowledgeable around the internals
22:21	gfredericks	amalloy is the only person who reads my macros
22:22	hyPiRion	,(list* ())
22:22	clojurebot	nil
22:22	bawr	gfredericks: Oh I read it, I just didn't parse it. ;)
22:22	hyPiRion	it's not as easy as you'd like it to be
22:22	gfredericks	hyPiRion: maybe seq is better
22:22	hyPiRion	,(seq ())
22:22	clojurebot	nil
22:23	hyPiRion	:p
22:23	gfredericks	whoops
22:23	gfredericks	of course
22:23	gfredericks	(or (seq %) ()) then
22:23	hyPiRion	Surely that's the best way of doing this.
22:23	hyPiRion	Wait.
22:24	hyPiRion	yeah, that's the best way
22:24	hyPiRion	must be.
22:39	gfredericks	man this reader code is so OO
22:39	ibdknox	do it with blind
22:41	gfredericks	okay with the power of google I cannot figure out what that cryptic comment meant
22:42	ibdknox	soon to be tools.reader: https://github.com/Bronsa/blind
22:43	gfredericks	eventually replacing the core reader? or what's the utility of making it a core lib?
22:45	bbloom	gfredericks: will probably become the reader for clojurescript
22:46	bbloom	and via that channel, will eventually replace the core reader.... at about the same speed pypy is replacing cpython :-P
22:46	gfredericks	clojurescript gets to have all the fun
22:46	ibdknox	it's very useful for tools guys :)
22:47	gfredericks	clojure: a good language for building clojurescripts in
23:24	amalloy	gfredericks, hyPiRion: ##(doc sequence)
23:24	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/sequence ([coll]) Coerces coll to a (possibly empty) sequence, if it is not already one. Will not force a lazy seq. (sequence nil) yields () nil
23:25	gfredericks	woah it's like the opposite of seq
23:43	hyPiRion	All these core nuggets
23:43	hyPiRion	,(#'clojure.core/>1? 2)
23:43	clojurebot	true
23:59	technomancy	slamhound is back ladies and gents