#clojure – 2012-12-24

2012-12-24

00:16	alex_baranosky	my internet connection's out of whack, so sorry if I appear to be ignoring any responses
00:16	alex_baranosky	This appears to be doing what I want, but investigating further: (filter (complement coll?)
00:16	alex_baranosky	(rest (tree-seq coll? seq x)))
00:20	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Do you want to get a sequence of anything that isn't a collection? If so, the first one is great.
00:21	alex_baranosky	Raynes: I want to break the body of a namespace into all of its 'atoms' aka strings/symbols/keywords/numbers/etc
00:22	Raynes	Why on earth would you do a thing like that?
00:22	alex_baranosky	the version I posted works for that, or so it seems
00:22	alex_baranosky	making slam hound work
00:22	Raynes	Rename it to something useful while you're at it.
00:22	alex_baranosky	I'll call it 'useful' then :)
00:23	Raynes	amalloy already has that
00:35	tomoj	alex_baranosky: you need to upgrade swank-clojure
00:36	tomoj	I have {:user {:plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.4"]]} {:dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.4.3"]]}}
00:36	alex_baranosky	tomoj: you saw my mailing list post? Thanks :)
00:36	tomoj	seems like there should be a new lein-swank release
02:28	bbloom	dnolen: you totally need to do a core.logic version of http://luckytoilet.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/2125/
02:32	bbloom	needs optimization, however
02:40	tomoj	I vaguely remember there once being a big prize for a good minesweeper ai
02:41	tomoj	oh
02:41	tomoj	that's just the P=NP prize
02:41	tomoj	:)
02:42	tomoj	media: "you can win $1 million for solving minesweeper!"
02:56	bawr	Lein, why do you hate me so? Or at least my CPU. :<
03:31	Raynes	bawr: What is it doing?
03:33	bawr	Raynes: I think it's trying to fry an egg. Except there is no egg.
03:33	Raynes	Okay.
03:35	bawr	I guess that's what I get for being lazy and doing OpenJDK instead of Sun's JDK.
03:54	wingy	i have a map with keys/values and want to sort them based on their values into a vector (since maps are unordered).. how can i do that?
03:55	tomoj	&(sort-by val (zipmap (range) (take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 100)))))
03:55	lazybot	⇒ ([2 0] [0 13] [1 28] [4 29] [8 46] [6 47] [7 52] [9 70] [3 92] [5 92])
03:56	Raynes	(sort-by val ..)
03:56	Raynes	Without all the zipmap stuff that might confuse you.
03:58	tomoj	I suppose {:foo 3 :bar 2 :baz 1} would have been less confusing :)
03:59	wingy	yeah .. im reading up on sort-by
04:00	bawr	tomoj: oh, but isn't it fun when 90% of your answer is just boilerplate for data generation? ;)
04:01	tomoj	maybe lazybot could have a-map etc bound by default to generally useful values
04:01	mehwork	is there a way to make it so defn foo [& args] will reset args each time it's called? right now when i print args it shows all the values that were ever passed to that function from everything that called it
04:01	tomoj	eh, that's probably more confusing than helpful
04:04	tomoj	mehwork: I think you must be confused about what's happening - if you refheap'd an example of the problem you might be able to get an answer
04:07	callen	does anyone use a frontend asset compiler with their Clojure project?
04:07	callen	I found one that works for ClojureScript, but I need to roll in other dependencies.
04:08	mehwork	tomoj where can i read about what & args does?
04:15	tomoj	I dunno
04:15	tomoj	&(let [f (fn [& args] (println args))] (f 1 2 3) (f 4 5 6))
04:15	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3) (4 5 6) nil
04:18	tomoj	anyway, it just does what you probably want, not what you think it does :)
04:23	wingy	clojure is the best lang ever!
04:23	Raynes	oh em gee
04:25	mehwork	you must not have seen php
04:26	mehwork	they have lambduz and interfaces. Anything goes, even goto
04:26	mehwork	php 6 is probably going to have inline asm
04:27	wingy	really
04:27	mehwork	no, but it wouldn't surprise me :p
04:27	wingy	might have to check that out .. php sounds hot
04:28	mehwork	they have bitwise operations even though none of their users will ever know what that means
04:28	wingy	i like goto .. it's like having a back door to any place
04:30	Raynes	Yeah, but all the places are hell.
04:31	Raynes	All of the places end with you being fired and me hating you.
04:32	Ember-	haha, PHP. Now there's a language :)
04:33	Ember-	it's so hilarious it has it's place in the programming world solely for that
04:33	Ember-	but of course it's less hilarious if you're forced to do anything serious with it
04:33	Ember-	I've been lucky and I've done only two semi serious things with it
04:33	Ember-	enough to see it's insanity
04:34	wingy	the creator should be executed on the spot
04:34	wingy	without a trial
04:35	Ember-	I just love the attitude of the PHP creators
04:36	Ember-	this is a wonderful article about why PHP sucks so badly :) http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
04:36	Ember-	longish but worth the read
04:37	callen	bwahahahaha
04:37	anon_1337	isn't clojure the PHP of functional programming?
04:37	callen	technomancy: I just broke your employer's system.
04:38	wingy	ill save that for a before sleep reading
04:38	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
04:38	callen	technomancy: I necromancy'd an ancient account and logging in threw a 500
04:38	callen	borkdude: trying to commit suicide?
04:39	borkdude	callen hehe
04:42	callen	god dammit
04:42	callen	I tried logging in via another newer account and it 500'd
04:42	callen	is Heroku's admin panel down for anybody else?
04:43	wingy	callen: nope
04:43	callen	I must be cursed then.
04:44	callen	I've got two different accounts 500'ing.
04:44	callen	and it's Christmas
04:44	callen	so this is unlikely to get fixed for like...a week or two.
04:44	wingy	you shouldn't be coding on christmas!
04:45	callen	wingy: I'm single, male, no family, an inveterate nihilist, and I have an itch to scratch. Heroku being down is slowing down my itch-scratching and that makes me mad.
04:45	wingy	callen: if you live in SF give me a call and we'll go n party :)
04:45	callen	wingy: actually, this is doable, I'm in Mountain View.
04:46	borkdude	callen no family? they all died or ?
04:47	callen	borkdude: nobody's died recently, AFAIK
04:50	Ember-	hmm, in my opinion Christmas is the best possible time to code your own little projects :)
04:51	borkdude	yeah, xmas is a good time for hobby coding
04:52	Ember-	just had a blast while sitting for 7 hours in a train
04:52	Ember-	did some programming for my own little project
04:53	callen	Ember-: agreed.
04:53	callen	in my case I have an actual itch to scratch that's been irritating me for a long time.
04:54	Ember-	yeah, I know what you mean
04:54	callen	Ember-: the project is a searchable personal database, mostly for notes and links.
04:55	callen	Ember-: it may sound like something I could use an existing webapp for, but you'd be surprised. I haven't found anything that was particularly good and focused on links. Delicious is fairly awful for how I collect links.
04:55	Ember-	hehe
04:55	Ember-	my project is the old play by email game called Stars! as a HTML 5 version
04:56	Ember-	I love that game but it is a bit too outdated for my taste
04:56	Ember-	so I decided to create my own version with modern technologies
04:56	callen	Ember-: that actually reminds me of something. "Play by email" is one of those slow-web things, I think there's a lot of room for "slow-web" asynchronous type stuff to get updated and brought into the modern world.
04:56	Ember-	which don't force you to install a separate client or anything, everything is in the browser and in the clojure backend
04:57	callen	Ember-: cool project :)
04:57	Ember-	yeah, I agree :)
04:57	Ember-	turn based and it will stay that way but will take advantage of real time possibilities provided by the architecture
04:57	Ember-	for example, in the original game diplomacy was done through tedious messaging system
04:58	Ember-	you wrote a message and the recipient received your message when next turn was generated
04:58	Ember-	now with modern browsers it's easy to create a realtime chat for that
04:59	Ember-	and I have a lot of other ideas too, but will start with a nearly identical copy of the original game since I'm not a game developer and I might very easily break the balance
05:00	callen	Ember-: are you familiar with the game, "OGame"?
05:00	Ember-	no
05:00	callen	Ember-: it had a funky mix of time-delay-based asynchronous gameplay
05:01	callen	Ember-: it wasn't "turn based", as in, you could repeatedly take actions before your opponent could
05:01	Ember-	this one? http://www.ogame.org/
05:01	tomoj	wow, 0 and O look identical in the font I use in emacs. wtf and how have I not noticed this before?!
05:01	callen	Ember-: but the time-scale was very different, it'd take 2, 10, 20 hours to send a fleet to attack a planet dpeending on how far away it was
05:01	callen	Ember-: yes that.
05:01	callen	tomoj: that's pretty egregious.
05:02	callen	tomoj: OTOH, when your programming language doesn't consider a boolean false and 0 to be identical, you don't see as many of them...
05:02	callen	Ember-: anyway, just thought I'd mention a game that has some similar design priorities.
05:02	Ember-	yeah, nice to know about that
05:02	Ember-	thanks
05:03	Ember-	I'm happy to have inspiration from all kinds of games for my little project
05:03	Ember-	"little"
05:03	Ember-	:D
05:03	callen	Ember-: I'm kinda obsessed with game mechanics as a general subject and hobby.
05:03	Ember-	let's see if this finishes
05:03	callen	Ember-: like for example, I've spent a fair bit of time just thinking about how different games and systems model "time".
05:03	Ember-	:)
05:03	callen	there's more variety than one might suspect, but not as much as it merits.
05:04	callen	and I don't mean some kitschy gimmick like being to reverse time.
05:04	Ember-	I kinda like the idea of linear time progress instead of turns
05:04	Ember-	but it makes a lot of things harder
05:04	callen	Ember-: aye. So the way you could linear time progression ala OGame is to allow user actions to create scheduled triggers (events)
05:04	Ember-	yeah, I understand
05:04	Ember-	it's in many ways similar to the way Stars! works
05:05	callen	Ember-: the reason for a linear time progression model is that it allows for many people to act in concert
05:05	Ember-	you tell your ships etc that "when you encounter x do y"
05:05	callen	Ember-: the reason is to allow an MMO scale of galaxy.
05:05	callen	many people cooperating, etc.
05:05	Ember-	yeah, well that is achieved also in turn based game via diplomacy
05:05	Ember-	but that is an interesting idea
05:05	callen	well the issue with a turn-based game, especially as the number of players increases, is that everybody blocks on whoever hasn't taken their turn.
05:06	acron^	how can I turn a string (":a") into a map key (:a
05:06	acron^	(:a)*
05:06	Ember-	it might be a good idea to build my game in such a way that you could start the game later as linear time based
05:06	callen	acron^: don't use :a
05:06	Ember-	first the turn based version, later the linear time
05:06	Ember-	if I find it feasible
05:06	callen	another reason OGame was built that way, was to allow for a flexible amount of "investment" into their actions.
05:06	callen	whereas turn-based games by definition have a limited amount of action you can take per turn
05:06	acron^	callen: i kinda need to
05:06	callen	acron^: it's straight forward to convert "a" -> :a
05:07	Ember-	callen: yeah, that is indeed a problem with turn based games
05:07	Ember-	the time it takes for ppl to wait for that one micro manager to finish his turn
05:07	callen	OGame allows some people to invest more in expanding their economy by spending more time tweaking and scaling up
05:07	callen	it also eliminates the blocking problem as you just mentioned
05:07	Ember-	needs careful design though to work
05:07	callen	There were a lot of issues with OGame's game mechanics though
05:07	acron^	callen: that's the question i'm asking..
05:07	callen	one is that people with absolutely no lives had HUGE economic advantages
05:08	acron^	callen: if it's easy, how is it done?
05:08	Ember-	for example if you spend most of your time just waiting for your ships to move to their destination it's not fun
05:08	callen	,(keyword "a")
05:08	clojurebot	:a
05:08	callen	acron^: ^^
05:08	acron^	thank you
05:08	Ember-	and in the start of the game your technology is so lame that everything will take time
05:08	callen	Ember-: another issue is that one of the nice things about a turn-based game is that they tend to be a lot more fair
05:09	callen	Ember-: the economic advantage of spending more time playing OGame gave it the grindy feel of an MMO. Unpleasant and unsustainable long term.
05:09	Ember-	yeah, I can see why
05:09	callen	the build-up to better technology did take quite some time, but once you leveled off at the top-tier, everything became about economics
05:09	Ember-	I'm considering of adding a game mode where there is a time limit for the game turn
05:09	callen	because once you're at the top tier, it's purely about who has the bigger fleet
05:09	Ember-	one which could be increased on fly via galactic election :)
05:10	callen	Ember-: you could call it galactic hot potato.
05:11	acron^	callen: that's erroneous
05:11	acron^	callen I asked for ":a", not "a"
05:11	Ember-	,(str ":" "a")
05:11	clojurebot	":a"
05:11	Ember-	:P
05:11	acron^	but then (keyword ":a") doesn't work
05:12	acron^	i need to remove the ":" before keywording it
05:12	borkdude	"For two millenia, the idea of mimicking the real world has actually imprisoned geometry." (isn't this also true for OO programming? ;-))
05:12	callen	acron^: that's what I was saying.
05:12	callen	borkdude: meh. I blame Simula.
05:12	acron^	(second (string/split ":a£" ":")) <- ?
05:12	callen	borkdude: funny part is, CES ends up being better than OO/inheritance for doing actual simulations.
05:13	borkdude	callen CES?
05:13	callen	acron^: probably good enough.
05:13	acron^	callen there isn't a nicer way?
05:13	callen	acron^: I'm cringing a bit at the possibility of more than one colon.
05:13	callen	acron^: you could stop generating keywords from strings, for a start.
05:13	callen	borkdude: component entity systems
05:13	callen	borkdude: composition, separation of state and logic, etc
05:14	acron^	callen: don't really have a choice, it's from url params
05:14	callen	borkdude: not quite "functional", but has similar design priorities. it's popular for game development and simulation systems these days.
05:14	borkdude	callen ah
05:14	callen	acron^: you always have a choice. Are you using maps?
05:14	callen	,(get {"a" "b"} "a")
05:14	clojurebot	"b"
05:15	callen	acron^: ^^
05:15	callen	acron^: stop generating keywords.
05:15	callen	acron^: refheap your problem.
05:15	acron^	ok
05:15	acron^	2 secs
05:17	Ember-	well, time to spend Christmas away from computer :)
05:18	tomoj	OO fails to mimic the real world
05:19	callen	tomoj: you're being verbose, let me help you. "OO fails"
05:19	tomoj	I suppose they have an idea that they're mimicking the real world
05:19	tomoj	:)
05:19	Siphonblast	Couldn't you technically develop a game in clojure if you used the java OpenGL bindings?
05:19	bawr	Stars! on a Clojure channel. Ecellent. :)
05:20	acron^	callen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7836
05:20	borkdude	bawr stars? wadda you mean?
05:20	callen	borkdude: Stars!
05:21	zilti	I wouldn't say OO fails per se. e.g. when working with GUI stuff you always end up using objects.
05:21	callen	acron^: okay. well I answered the original question, what's the current problem?
05:21	acron^	callen: when you asked for refheap I assumed you wre going to pass comme ton my structure
05:22	acron^	comment*
05:22	acron^	is there a better way I should be doing this?
05:23	borkdude	callen bawr I'm clearly missing smth =)
05:23	callen	acron^: I assumed you were a lost cause when I saw you were using MangoDB
05:24	acron^	why? :\
05:24	callen	acron^: more seriously, in the context of that refheap what you're doing has an internal...sense to it, but that doesn't mean I don't suspect it could be done better. You've created the need for some mildly 'meta' programming, you may just have to do it like this.
05:25	callen	acron^: could describe at a high level what you're doing?
05:25	callen	acron^: are you enabling users to query something?
05:25	callen	acron^: MangoDB is the data store of choice of scoundrels, nihilists, and people that don't care about their data.
05:26	callen	since I am all of those things, I too use MangoDB.
05:26	acron^	callen: yes ^ as a proof of concept for a web app I'm attempting to map url params to queries in mongo directly
05:26	acron^	however i want to support both OR and AND operations
05:26	callen	acron^: pretty dangerous. God help you.
05:27	acron^	well, it is and it isn't
05:27	acron^	i put my faith into the monger library :p
05:27	callen	probably don't want to be injecting user-entered strings into your db queries. Just uh, gonna put that out there.
05:28	acron^	but it's not strings, it's all broken down to clojure types before then getting converted back again
05:28	acron^	anyway
05:28	acron^	this isn't about the shoulds or shouldn'ts
05:30	borkdude	MangoDB is smth new? or is it MongoDB? things are moving so fast these days ;)
05:31	acron^	He means MongoDB :p
05:31	callen	borkdude: MangoDB is web scale rockstar ninja tech
05:31	acron^	(second (clojure.string/split ":a" #":")) just feels so ugly
05:31	callen	acron^: it is. for one thing, use a friggin' regex
05:31	callen	that code breaks on ":a:something_important"
05:32	acron^	i know
05:32	callen	acron^: you make me feel like I'm begging a crazy person not to stab themselves.
05:32	zilti	acron^: What if you'd just drop-while?
05:33	acron^	zilti: if it's not obvious i'm a clojure noob. what's drop-while ?
05:33	borkdude	,(name :a)
05:33	acron^	callen: there comes a time in every coder's life when he has to bleed a little
05:33	clojurebot	"a"
05:33	zilti	acron^: It drops stuff from a collection as long as the helper function returns true
05:34	acron^	zilti: sounds good
05:34	zilti	&(drop-while #(= % \:) ":a:b")
05:34	lazybot	⇒ (\a \: \b)
05:34	bawr	borkdude: there was a discussion about a Stars! (an oldie but goodie game) clone as a holiday project.
05:34	zilti	Oops
05:34	zilti	Well you'd have to turn it into a string again afterwards
05:35	acron^	zilti: that's fine, i can do this begfore it's a string anyway - thank you
05:35	borkdude	bawr ah
05:35	callen	,(drop-while (fn [blah] (= blah \:)) ":a:something_important")
05:35	clojurebot	(\a \: \s \o \m ...)
05:35	zilti	acron^: #(= % \:) is short for (fn [char] (= char \:)
05:36	acron^	callen: how does the second colon make it through?!
05:36	tomoj	and long for #{\:}, sort of :)
05:36	callen	,(apply str (drop-while (fn [blah] (= blah \:)) ":a:something_important"))
05:36	clojurebot	"a:something_important"
05:36	callen	acron^: that's...the point.
05:36	callen	tomoj: I'm trying to write code, not obfuscated Russian emoticons.
05:37	zilti	acron^: That's why it's called "drop-while". http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/drop-while
05:37	acron^	zilti: sorry, the semantic fail is mine
05:37	zilti	acron^: No reason to say sorry for that :)
05:37	acron^	it still serves me better than my existing solution
05:38	tomoj	to me, #{\:} is idiomatic, not obfuscated
05:38	callen	tomoj: I was kidding.
05:38	tomoj	I suppose sometimes "idiomatic" is just a euphemism for "obfuscated" :(
05:38	zilti	Hmm I wonder why that happens:
05:38	zilti	&(= (apply str (concat (drop-while #(= % \:) "::abc:de"))) (str (concat (drop-while #(= % \:) "::abc:de"))))
05:38	zilti
05:38	lazybot	⇒ false
05:39	callen	tomoj: no, it's fine. Your code was good.
05:39	callen	tomoj: you really shouldn't take me seriously.
05:39	zilti	What's the point of #{\:} ?
05:40	callen	,(#{\:} \:)
05:40	clojurebot	\:
05:40	tomoj	but really, many things called "idiom" are not very clear. (if (seq x)) being more idiomatic than (if (not (empty? x))) for example
05:40	callen	,(#{\:} \b)
05:40	clojurebot	nil
05:40	callen	zilti: ^^
05:41	tomoj	even though the latter is more clear to those who don't speak the idiom..
05:41	acron^	i need to learn the basics before i think about idioms. coming from C++ this is a real challenge for me.
05:41	callen	are you serious?
05:41	zilti	callen: Thanks. I guess. ^^
05:41	bawr	I wouldn't say (if (seq)) is terribly idiomatic, one of the first things you learn is that seq gives nil on empyty sequences, and that nil is false.
05:42	callen	C++ (for me) is like having my limbs ripped off and the wounds salted.
05:42	acron^	nice image
05:42	zilti	Does anyone btw know what happened to clojuredocs.org?
05:42	callen	zilti: ...it's still there?
05:42	acron^	C++ can be pretty eloquent if it's done well, you know
05:42	zilti	callen: Yes, but it's still at 1.3
05:43	acron^	Especially now we have C++11
05:43	callen	acron^: I am a fan of C++11, but yeah, not really a general purpose lang for me.
05:43	zilti	What I always hated about C++ is that you need not one, but two files (damn header files!) for one class.
05:43	acron^	zilti: technically you don't need a .cpp ;p
05:44	acron^	still not sure where clojure will fit in my toolbox but i am enjoying the purity of it so far
05:45	zilti	And that let's-manage-our-memory-by-hand stuff. It was fun for the little one-threaded simple game I wrote, but I imagine it can be the hell for larger stuff.
05:45	acron^	zilti: well, yes. for larger stuff you write a memory manager
05:45	callen	tomoj: but on a more serious note, while what you did was idiomatic, abusing set membership for what was fundamentally a filter was a little cutesy.
05:45	callen	tomoj: apparently it scares the younglings too.
05:45	acron^	^ it does
05:45	callen	should show them some APL, let them know some real horror.
05:46	acron^	:E
05:46	tomoj	I almost always write #{x} for #(= % x). that's abuse?
05:47	zilti	APL... has that been invented by a greek?
05:48	tomoj	hmm, wasn't there something about how literal set notation is not really meant to be used with non-literal values?
05:48	callen	tomoj: it's not abuse, it's just cutesy.
05:48	bawr	APL is all fun and games until someone pokes their eye out.
05:48	callen	tomoj: it's an obvious byproduct of familiarity and brevity overtaking obviousness of expression
05:49	tomoj	oh I guess the problem case was #{x y} when (= x y)
05:49	callen	tomoj: I don't think it's a bad idiom. I'm just saying that a newbcake is going to _ when they see it.
05:49	callen	tomoj: pardon me for caring about the computing third world.
05:50	zilti	I've seen that for the first time today, but when you know that "kewords" are functions taking collections as arguments and the other way around, #{x} is pretty obvious.
05:51	tomoj	&(let [x nil] (remove #{x} [nil nil nil]))
05:51	lazybot	⇒ (nil nil nil)
05:53	zilti	The difficult thing at functional programming is that you just have that huge pile of functions laying in front of you without a real organisation behind it compared to OO. That made it a bit difficult for me to start with it.
05:54	tomoj	&(read-string "#{x x}")
05:54	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: x
05:54	tomoj	of course..
05:55	zilti	Argh why doesn't korma support many-to-many?
05:57	callen	zilti: it doesn't officially but it certainly works.
05:57	acron^	my god, lein is frustrating
05:57	callen	acron^: try sbt or cabal sometime, then report back.
05:57	zilti	acron^: Then you better never try Scala's "Simple Build Tool". THATs hell.
05:58	callen	zilti: https://github.com/korma/korma.incubator
05:58	Raynes	zilti: That isn't true at all.
05:58	zilti	callen: There's an implementation in korma.incubator
05:58	callen	lol @ zilti quoting the same awfulness as me.
05:58	Raynes	zilti: That's what namespaces are for.
05:58	zilti	kik
05:58	callen	and then mentioning the same lib as me
05:58	zilti	*lol
05:58	callen	Raynes: hey. you. Laser.
05:59	acron^	are you infact a single consiousness in two bodies?
05:59	callen	Raynes: so it looks promising but the Enlive people want their CSS selectors and other niceties. Whatcha gonna do to keep it from getting complectified?
05:59	callen	acron^: I am large and contain multitudes.
05:59	Raynes	callen: I've got plans to write a real implementation of CSS selectors separate from everything else and provide it as a function call and such.
05:59	zilti	Well lol, the korma.incubator implementation seems to be broken, or can someone here confirm it's working?
06:00	callen	Raynes: I guess what I'm wondering is, what parts of enlive are you going to refuse to implement to keep it simpler?
06:00	callen	because there has to be something.
06:00	Raynes	callen: I haven't found anything yet.
06:00	zilti	Raynes: Did you write the wrong person with "That isn't true at all"?
06:00	Raynes	zilti: No.
06:00	zilti	Argh. I'm always trying to use autocomplete in IRC
06:01	Raynes	"The difficult thing at functional programming is that you just have that huge pile of functions laying in front of you without a real organisation behind it compared to OO."
06:01	Raynes	I was responding to that.
06:01	callen	zilti: Raynes is a hyper-dimensional being that transcends space and time. Your mortal conceptions of "ancient history" are but a blink of the eye for him.
06:01	callen	zilti: also, /lastlog
06:02	zilti	Raynes: Oh I see. Well, look at clojure.core and tell me it's well-ordered compared to OO core-libs, I'd say it's not. After some time you just know what that stuff is for and that it makes sense not to order it more.
06:02	callen	I'm sorry, what's wrong with it?
06:02	Raynes	callen: I'm sure there are things missing from laser that are in Enlive, I just haven't seen anything important yet, and I figure people will let me know if there are useful things missing..
06:03	Raynes	zilti: clojure.core is a collection of functions that are meant to be available all the time. Is is a totally different thing.
06:03	callen	Raynes: I guess what I'm wondering is whether scope-creep will simply inflate it to where Enlive is now.
06:03	Raynes	You want to look at libraries. Not bootstrapped Clojure libraries.
06:03	Raynes	callen: No.
06:03	zilti	Raynes: Yes, of course, but that doesn't make it less overwhelming for newbies. I don't want to have this changed, don't misunderstand me.
06:03	Raynes	callen: If I thought that was a possibility, I wouldn't have bothered.
06:03	bawr	zilti: Compare it to Python's builtins or something, it's really not much different.
06:04	bawr	zilti: Well, Clojure is supposed to be simple, not easy. ;)
06:04	Raynes	zilti: I'm not disagreeing that it can be annoyingly cobbled together.
06:04	borkdude	would it be awkward if +,- etc would be moved to a namespace called clojure.math instead of clojure.core?
06:04	callen	Raynes: fair enough, I just don't know how to differentiate the purpose of the two beyond the fact that laser is newer and possibly less inclined to require the user to understand astrology.
06:04	callen	borkdude: yes.
06:04	zilti	borkdude: yes
06:05	callen	,(prn "borkdude: yes")
06:05	clojurebot	"borkdude: yes"
06:05	borkdude	if yes, then you've got your answer.
06:06	zilti	About that korma.incubator many-to-many implementation - has anyone used that and it worked?
06:06	callen	ibdknox: many-to-many in korma.incubator. Is good?
06:07	acron^	does Ring produce error logs? somewhere? anywhere?
06:07	Raynes	callen: To answer someone's question of "Why laser instead of enlive?", my answer would be something like "Laser is smaller and takes a combinator based approach over a faux-css selector approach. It has (or will have) better, clearer documentation, the code will be cleaner and make more sense, and it should always be well maintained."
06:07	callen	acron^: Ring never has errors and therefore has no error logs.
06:08	callen	combinator based approach. ogod.
06:08	acron^	Oh right. That's fine then.
06:08	callen	Raynes: have you been smoking the Haskell again?
06:08	Raynes	callen: Get out of my internet.
06:08	acron^	callen: So...what happens...when it crashes?
06:09	Raynes	It doesn't.
06:09	Raynes	Obviously.
06:09	acron^	Well, something is
06:09	zilti	It's your code
06:09	callen	acron^: http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/07/develop-deploy-clojure-web-applications.html
06:10	acron^	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7838
06:10	callen	I cringe at linking the apostate's website, but it's a good place to start.
06:10	callen	acron^: just...go work through the tutorial I linked.
06:10	acron^	:(
06:10	callen	acron^: if you still can't figure it out by the time you get to the bottom of the page, check back.
06:10	acron^	dont be angry with me callen..
06:10	callen	acron^: I'm not trying to be an asshole, it's just...logging is something you do
06:10	acron^	look at my refheap
06:10	callen	acron^: I'm not angry, I'm just trying to be maximally helpful.
06:11	Raynes	callen: Anyways, like I said, there will be real css selectors eventually. I'm clearing out the last bugs before I bother with it.
06:11	callen	acron^: whoa, cool error.
06:11	acron^	I know, right?
06:11	Raynes	callen: Hah, Mark is an apostate? :p
06:11	callen	Raynes: yes?
06:11	callen	acron^: add logging
06:11	callen	acron^: read the tutorial I linked
06:11	Raynes	callen: Because he started using Go?
06:11	callen	I'm super srs.
06:12	callen	Raynes: yes.
06:12	acron^	reading
06:12	callen	Raynes: gophery apostate.
06:12	zilti	Why does he do (-> #'handler instead of (-> handler ?
06:12	Raynes	Hah
06:12	Raynes	zilti: Because if you refer to #'handler, if the thing the var refers to changes (in place, ew, mutable, ew) the changes will be seen.
06:13	borkdude	mutable… aaaaaaaah, it burns…
06:13	callen	I can't decide if this is for code-reloading or bizarre satanic rituals.
06:14	zilti	Well ok, so I probably won't ever need it.
06:14	Raynes	The forme.r
06:14	borkdude	callen both
06:14	Raynes	former*
06:14	callen	then I'm keeping it.
06:14	Raynes	callen: It's particularly useful for REPL development.
06:15	zilti	So it's a "recalculate the surrounding expression if this variable changes" thing?
06:15	callen	zilti: I think it's more along the lines of "don't use the persistent result of this reference, just keep dereferencing the var"
06:16	callen	if the underlying var changes, the result changes
06:16	Raynes	zilti: #'handler = the handler var. You're referring to the var and not the thing inside of it, so if the thing inside of it changes...
06:16	Raynes	Bang, you has new thing.
06:16	zilti	Raynes: Like pointers.
06:17	Raynes	Uh, well, like anything mutable ever.
06:17	Raynes	'fraid I can't comment on pointers, never used C.
06:17	callen	Raynes: pointers in C point to fully mutable memory locations
06:17	zilti	Everybody kept telling how difficult they are to understand, but I found it to be damn easy. It's just by-reference instead of by-value.
06:18	callen	Raynes: the ground falls out from underneath you quickly
06:18	callen	btw, I produced a demonstration of what I was talking about
06:18	callen	zilti: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7839
06:18	callen	pedagogy via repl. woohoo.
06:18	zilti	I found clojure atoms to be kinda like pointers in some way
06:18	callen	vars and java references are all pointers.
06:19	callen	the semantics of Java are reference-semantics weakly imitated by by-value passing of pointers to objects.
06:19	callen	Python is the same way, references don't live longer than their by-value pointers.
06:20	callen	dereferencing a re-instantiated object will go somewhere other than the last time you dereferenced the object, it will not overwrite the original.
06:20	callen	Raynes: does my paste explain the matter well, do you think?
06:20	zilti	Callen: You made a mistake. You called woot before you defined it, I guess it's supposed to be (blah "blah") on line 3?
06:21	callen	zilti: that's not a mistake, ignore that line.
06:21	callen	zilti: I was building up to the experiment, invoked woot to test an assumption.
06:22	zilti	Well by now I really, really prefer by-value.
06:22	callen	zilti: the persistent and immutable nature of Clojure data structures by default give you what amount to by-value semantics.
06:23	callen	zilti: it's just that deep down, references underlie how it works in the JVM
06:23	callen	and incidentally, vars are really just mutable references anyway.
06:23	callen	for convenience's sake more than anything else.
06:23	bawr	zilti: pointers are one of those things you either get immediately, or never fully get
06:23	callen	bawr: I always saw them as index cards with a number on it. If you looked at that number's location in a series of cardboard boxes, you might find your data.
06:24	callen	that or SEGMENTATION FAULT^D
06:24	bawr	I never needed a visualisation, they just made sense.
06:25	callen	bawr: I didn't need one, but the analogy is more to explain my internal mental model than anything else
06:25	borkdude	pointers, aren't they like cofunctorial invariants under the mutability monad? I'm just guessing
06:25	bawr	Yeah, that's a number at an address in memory that points to another address in memory.
06:25	callen	borkdude: somebody's been smoking the Haskell.
06:25	borkdude	callen not really, just bullshit ;)
06:25	acron^	How is this my code that's the problem?? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7840
06:25	bawr	callen: heh, fair enough. I don't see how a different mental model can be made. ;)
06:26	callen	acron^: becaus --- Subprocess failed
06:26	acron^	the server didnt even start!
06:26	callen	acron^: your code is bad and you should feel bad.
06:26	acron^	argh
06:26	callen	acron^: it's Christmas, don't be frustrated.
06:27	callen	acron^: this is the universe telling you to go drink some eggnog and wrestle with a cousin.
06:27	acron^	:\
06:27	acron^	I'd rather not
06:27	callen	acron^: okay okay, fine. So you're a misanthrope like me.
06:27	acron^	Absolutely
06:28	acron^	I'll be here tomorrow, flagellating myself some more
06:28	borkdude	why are you a human hater if you don't drink egg nog?
06:28	callen	acron^: sexy. See you then Friar Tuck.
06:30	acron^	I wonder if it's a memory issue...
06:31	callen	acron^: how much do you got?
06:31	acron^	Well
06:31	acron^	i'm running this on an ec2 micro
06:32	callen	acron^: ಥ_ಥ
06:32	acron^	~100mb
06:32	clojurebot	Huh?
06:32	acron^	(lol)
06:32	callen	,(lol)
06:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: lol in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
06:32	callen	that is a travesty.
06:32	callen	we need a lol function.
06:33	acron^	(lol [1 4 7]) => "LOL"
06:33	callen	yes.
06:34	acron^	fuck
06:34	acron^	it's memory
06:34	Ember-	callen: (defn lol [& _] "LOL")
06:34	Ember-	you're welcome
06:34	acron^	7800k free
06:34	callen	acron^: derp.
06:34	bawr	hurr
06:34	callen	Ember-: thanks, but I want it in clojure.core
06:34	Ember-	I don't :)
06:34	Ember-	this ain't PHP
06:34	Ember-	:P
06:35	callen	Ember-: fair.
06:35	bawr	callen: the whole point of clojure is being able to fill in the missing functionality, now stop belly-aching. ;P
06:35	borkdude	callen lucky for you namespaces are not sealed, so you can put it in whenever you want, in your own program
06:35	zilti	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7841 <- Could anyone take a quick look at my error message? I'm not even trying to drop anything named like that in a schema like that
06:36	Ember-	:D
06:36	callen	Schema "KORMA" nicht gefunden I take this means, "does not exist"?
06:36	callen	or not found?
06:36	zilti	callen: Yes, it's "not found"
06:36	bawr	Not found.
06:36	zilti	callen: But that's pretty much the same for h2
06:37	zilti	*is the same.
06:37	callen	zilti: can you get the generated SQL?
06:38	zilti	callen: I'll try.
06:38	zilti	callen: Just I have no Idea where that SQL string comes from. It's a drop table which korma doesn't support, so it's a hand-crafted SQL string
06:39	bawr	Why do you get errors in German, anyway?
06:39	borkdude	hmm &_ is a valid symbol name in clojure for a var, how nice
06:39	zilti	bawr: I live in Switzerland and the computer locale is swiss-german and h2 supports german, so I suppose that's why.
06:40	callen	borkdude: &_ is a clear indication to the user that, "this function cares not for your silly data!"
06:40	bawr	zilti: I live in Poland and make it a point to tweak my locale to use English. Precisely because of that error-translation bullshit.
06:40	borkdude	callen I forgot a space between & and _, then it actually expects always 1 arg ;)
06:40	bawr	English arrors are so much more googlable.
06:40	callen	zilti: Schweizerdeustch. ugh.
06:41	zilti	bawr: Luckily h2 gives the message in both languages
06:41	bawr	Ooh.
06:41	bawr	Well, that's saner.
06:41	ivaraasen	callen: it's the best German, man
06:41	callen	ivaraasen: no.
06:42	zilti	Argh. I looked at that code a dozen times and didn't see it. Now it makes sense: (str "DROP TABLE IF EXISTS " clojure.core.table) is bullshit
06:43	zilti	(I only wrote table, not korma.core.table, but I didn't define a "table" anywhere)
06:43	ivaraasen	I once had to debug a codebase with Norwegian variable and fn names. ugh...
06:43	zilti	nice
06:44	ivaraasen	it was Matlab code as well, so not exactly clean
06:44	zilti	I always write my code and documentation in english. And be it just because of the special characters.
06:48	repsac	Anyone know the best way to crawl a clojure jar and grab metadata (docs, src etc) for each namespace in the jar?
06:52	repsac	for all publics in all namespaces in the jar i mean
07:24	Raynes	replaca: Well, codox does stuff like that.
07:24	Raynes	Er, not replaca.
07:24	Raynes	repsac, but he has disappeared.
09:05	jcromartie	is noir abandoned?
09:05	jcromartie	ah I see
09:07	Anderkent	,(macroexpand '(no.such.Class/doThing 1 2 3))
09:07	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: no.such.Class>
09:08	Anderkent	any way around this? :(
09:09	zilti	Around what?
09:09	Anderkent	macroexpand crashing when there's a non-existing class reference
09:10	Anderkent	i.e. macroexpand tries to run (part of the) code
09:10	zilti	No, it isn't. The problem is that you're trying to macroexpand a static method of a java class, which of course doesn't work
09:10	zilti	Or you could try macroexpand-1
09:11	Anderkent	no, the problem is that the class does not exist at time of macroexpansion.
09:11	zilti	You can't and are not supposed to macroexpand classes.
09:12	Anderkent	,(macroexpand '(java.lang.System/currentTimeMillis))
09:12	clojurebot	(. java.lang.System currentTimeMillis)
09:13	Anderkent	is that sufficient as an example?
09:13	zilti	That's not expanding the method
09:13	zilti	It's just saying that it didn't expand anything at all
09:13	zilti	(macroexpand '(1 2 3))
09:13	Anderkent	It transformed the Object/method syntax
09:13	zilti	,(macroexpand '(1 2 3))
09:13	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
09:13	Anderkent	into the dot syntax
09:13	Anderkent	which is what I want to do
09:14	Anderkent	but it does not work when the class is not available on the classpath
09:14	Anderkent	which is disappointing
09:14	zilti	Then do it with other methods than macroexpand, because macroexpand is meant to expand macros
09:16	Anderkent	'They all expand into calls to the dot operator (described below) at macroexpansion time.', says clojure.org/java_interop
09:17	zilti	But they are special forms and not macros.
09:17	zilti	Why would you want to transform this anyway?
09:17	Anderkent	I'm also pretty sure you should be able to call macroexpand on any list at all, even if the first node is not a macro
09:18	Anderkent	I'm writing a code coverage tool and for that I need to fully macro expand a given source file
09:30	deg	Does Clojure offer a way to safely evaluate tainted user-input strings? Ideally, I'd like to eval the string in an environment that includes a small set of dynamic variables and functions that I've allowed, but no access to anything else (random functions, reader macros, etc.).
09:31	lucian	deg: there are some sandboxes around (4clojure and the bots in this channel use them)
09:31	jcromartie	deg: at the minimum, you can define your own set of allowed symbols
09:32	deg	jcromartie: Once I define my own set of allowed symbols, can I create an isolated namespace and pass it to the reader?
09:32	jcromartie	deg: I don't think so
09:32	jcromartie	deg: I'm not an expert, and sandboxes are hard
09:33	jcromartie	deg: but I'd definitely say a whitelist is better than a blacklist
09:33	lucian	deg: there's https://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox for example
09:34	jcromartie	what's that one form (reader macro) that's immediately evaluated at read time?
09:34	deg	I need binding of specified dynamic vars, arithmetic, and maybe some of the standard special forms (if, and, or; maybe a few more). So, a whitelist is definitely the path I want. But, I don't want to write an entire sandboxed evaluator myself.
09:34	jcromartie	ha
09:34	deg	Lucian: thanks, looking at that now.
09:34	jcromartie	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read-eval
09:35	deg	jcromartie: Yup, I'd definitely need to turn off #=. But, that feels like a blacklist approach, which I don't really trust as much as whitelist.
09:44	deg	lucian, jcromartie: Thanks. Looks like licenser sandbox will do what I need. (It'd definitely overkill -- it would have been cleaner if the standard reader took a set of available defs, bindings, and reader macros -- but I'm not pedantic enough to refuse a working tool. :-) )
09:55	yedi	does anyone have suggestions for good articles/talks to consume? stuff like prismatics article introducing graph, hickeys talk/article on reeducers, articles describing strucjure and clojure's matching library, etc
09:57	xeqi	deg: the other well used one is https://github.com/flatland/clojail but its a blacklist approach
09:58	xeqi	also, some use of something like classlojure to make an isolated enviornment incase they escape the sandbox, and a good java.policy file to restrict messing up the box is recommended
09:59	xeqi	its extremely hard to make a public eval, even clojail has a couple of esoteric ways to escape
09:59	xeqi	* a secure public eval
11:07	Bronsa	ibdknox: you should merge the last blind, i just fixed a bug that prevented numbers in the form 1e2 to be read
11:51	zilti	I wrote a macro that writes several declare statements. Now unfortunately it packs them in a list, and this happens:
11:51	zilti	&((declare something))
11:51	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
11:51	zilti	,((declare something))
11:51	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:52	zilti	IllegalStateException Attempting to call unbound fn: #'lopia-server.database/something clojure.lang.Var$Unbound.throwArity (Var.java:43)
11:54	dnolen	zilti: wrap them in a do. but also you know that declare can take multiple symbols right?
11:55	zilti	No, I didn't know that. Thanks for the hint!
12:00	zilti	Hm, my macro doesn't work the way I want it to... Isn't a macro supposed to write the stuff that's backquoted into the namespace?
12:03	jkkramer	zilti: backquote namespace-qualifies symbols, but not necessarily with the current namespace
12:03	jkkramer	&`(map foo bar)
12:03	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/map clojure.core/foo clojure.core/bar)
12:03	jkkramer	,`(map foo bar)
12:03	clojurebot	(clojure.core/map sandbox/foo sandbox/bar)
12:03	seangrove	Out of curiosity (thinking about putting this together in my cljs app), has anyone tried completely modelling an app's UI as via FSMs?
12:04	zilti	What's FSMs?
12:04	seangrove	finite state machines
12:05	matthavener	seangrove: lots of UI elements are modeled using FSMs
12:05	seangrove	Trying to get my UI's as declarative as possible
12:05	matthavener	seangrove: but you're saying an entire UI as a single FSM?
12:05	seangrove	Yeah
12:05	dnolen	seangrove: you should talk to ibdknox, that's what waltz is all about http://github.com/ibdknox/waltz
12:05	matthavener	interesting idea
12:06	seangrove	Maybe that's too high-level
12:06	seangrove	dnolen: Ah, thanks :)
12:08	seangrove	Sadly waltz and domina are both pretty quiet
12:31	yedi	does anyone have suggestions for good articles/talks to consume? stuff like prismatics article introducing graph, hickeys talk/article on reeducers, articles describing strucjure and clojure's matching library, etc
12:32	seangrove	yedi: Worth watching "the refined clojurian"
12:32	seangrove	s/clojurian/clojurist
12:32	seangrove	http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/the-refined-clojurist
12:33	seangrove	No idea why it's under a scala url though
12:33	yedi	oh cool
12:34	seangrove	Lnaugage of the system, and some others here too http://skillsmatter.com/event/scala/clojure-exchange-2012
12:39	dnolen	yedi: seangrove: http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV, and Planet Clojure RSS feed
13:07	zilti	Is it possible to do what (intern ns name val) does, but for macros?
13:07	gfredericks	interning a var whose value is a macro?
13:08	zilti	gfredericks: More like "redirecting" the macros output to that namespace, or better: "executing it in the other namespace"
13:10	gfredericks	what's the use case?
13:11	zilti	I have a macro that writes korma defentity statements based on data stored in a map. And they're supposed to end up in the macro's namespace.
13:12	bawr	>Clojurist
13:12	bawr	urrgh, sounds almost as bad as "Pythonista"
13:13	AimHere	Clojurissimo
13:13	AimHere	Clodjer
13:13	borkdude	zilti http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.with-ns/with-ns
13:13	gfredericks	zilti: so you're calling this defentity-writing macro from outside your foo.entities namespace. Where do you intend to use the defined vars? Also from other namespaces?
13:14	gfredericks	I think a macro that defs something in another namespace is pretty unusual; you can definitely use intern to do what you're talking about though.
13:15	zilti	gfredericks: I'll call them from outside, but not only from one namespace, so they should end up in "their" namespace.
13:15	gfredericks	looks like with-ns would work too
13:15	gfredericks	for intern you have to add the {:macro true} metadata to the symbol
13:15	gfredericks	as in (intern 'foos.entities (quote #^{:macro true} the-var-name) a-macro-function)
13:17	gfredericks	wow that's weird that with-ns uses map
13:18	gfredericks	that sounds like an obvious laziness bug
13:19	gfredericks	oh nevermind
13:19	gfredericks	it gets spliced in
13:19	borkdude	last time I used something like this I just did (binding [ns x] …) and passed ns as the argument for x from the other namespace
13:20	borkdude	but since I didn't know how to "get" a namespace object from a symbol, I found with-ns on clojuredocs =)
13:20	borkdude	ah, the-ns is something in clojure.core
13:21	borkdude	weird name though
13:22	borkdude	it felt wrong though - someone was trying to make a standard list of requires and uses and defined a functino for this in a util namespace
13:23	borkdude	so you'd only have to call the util function and it would require everything in your namespace
13:23	zilti	Great, the macro still works
13:24	zilti	It took me hours to figure out that error was caused by this.
13:27	borkdude	gfredericks the map also surprises me, why not just ~@body
13:27	gfredericks	borkdude: it has to use eval
13:28	zilti	I sometimes think my browser is leaking bookmarks
13:28	gfredericks	compare (binding [ns (find-ns 'clojure.walk)] postwalk) to (binding [ns (find-ns 'clojure.walk)] (eval 'postwalk))
13:31	gfredericks	borkdude: binding changes the namespace at runtime, not compile-time
13:33	borkdude	gfredericks right
13:33	gfredericks	eval: for when you need compile-time at runtime
13:34	borkdude	gfredericks I'm trying to figure out why the thing worked when I did it without eval
13:34	borkdude	gfredericks probably because it was a function, not a macro
13:35	gfredericks	I can imagine some subleties wherein it depends on what you're doing and whether or not it's top-level
13:35	borkdude	gfredericks we required and used some stuff in a namespace that was passed along as an argument
13:36	gfredericks	and just did (binding [ns symbol-arg] (require 'thing) ...)?
13:36	borkdude	gfredericks yes
13:36	borkdude	gfredericks no
13:36	borkdude	gfredericks the symbol-arg was an actualy namespace object
13:36	gfredericks	well symbol-arg would be a namespace object
13:36	gfredericks	yeah it'd have to be
13:37	gfredericks	yep works for me too
13:37	gfredericks	now to try it inside a function
13:38	gfredericks	yeah inside a function it works the other way
13:38	gfredericks	oh wait
13:38	gfredericks	scratch that
13:39	gfredericks	okay works the way you'd want in a function too
13:39	gfredericks	oh I know why
13:39	gfredericks	require/use just care about the value of ns at runtime
13:39	gfredericks	it's compiling within your namespace, but defining things in the other
13:40	gfredericks	you could tease apart the difference if e.g. you didn't refer-clojure in the other namespace
13:40	gfredericks	require and use would still compile because they're compiling in the namespace the code appears in
13:40	gfredericks	but if you want the symbols resolved in the other namespace, you need eval
13:41	borkdude	gfredericks this is getting complex
13:43	gfredericks	the meaning of the symbols is determined at compile-time, and so depends on the compile-time value of ns. The effect of require/use happens at runtime, and so depends on the runtime value of ns.
13:44	gfredericks	if you're trying to effect stuff in other namespaces dynamically I think you're already doing complex stuff :P
13:44	borkdude	gfredericks yes, I tried to discourage it first ;)
13:46	zilti	You did not really ;) It's working great now, though. I need it because I need/want to be able to modify the database at runtime and want to dynamically regenerate the defentity statements with the new table relations.
13:51	gfredericks	are you modifying the code that uses the entities as well?
13:51	zilti	gfredericks: no, just the entities
13:52	gfredericks	weeerds
13:53	borkdude	zilti I tried to discourage someone else, but doesn't matter
13:54	borkdude	this is actually a nice threading operator, maybe they can sneak it in clojure 1.5 just in time? ;) https://github.com/krisajenkins/hashthread
13:55	gfredericks	is that like let->?
13:55	gfredericks	&(doc let->)
13:55	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:55	gfredericks	,(doc let->)
13:55	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
13:55	gfredericks	argle bargle
13:56	borkdude	gfredericks I don't know what let-> does, but the nice thing about this one is that you can control where the threaded thing should go in the next expression
13:56	gfredericks	yeah I believe so. Only difference is you get to pick the local name instead of defaulting to %
13:57	gfredericks	so the example in the README becomes (let-> 5 x (range x 10) (map inc %))
13:57	gfredericks	er (map inc x)
13:57	borkdude	gfredericks ah ok, even more useful then
13:57	gfredericks	nestable!
13:57	borkdude	gfredericks yeah
13:58	gfredericks	always nest your let->'s so your coworkers will think you're smart
13:59	tpope	it's as-> not let->
14:00	tpope	,(doc as->)
14:00	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:00	tpope	&(doc as->)
14:00	lazybot	⇒ nil
14:00	tpope	well it is!
14:00	borkdude	clojure.core/as->
14:00	borkdude	([expr name & forms])
14:00	borkdude	Macro
14:00	borkdude	Binds name to expr, evaluates the first form in the lexical context
14:00	borkdude	of that binding, then binds name to that result, repeating for each
14:00	borkdude	successive form, returning the result of the last form.
14:00	gfredericks	it's let-> in my 1.5.0-beta1 repl
14:00	borkdude	gfredericks I'm on RC1 her
14:00	tpope	it's as-> in my 1.5.0-rc1 repl
14:00	gfredericks	I think I remember rich renaming it
14:00	tpope	but neat, guess there was a last minute name change
14:01	gfredericks	time to upgrade my repls
14:01	borkdude	gfredericks there was a discussion on the ML about renaming it
14:01	borkdude	gfredericks but I never got the intention from the documentation. examples speak louder than words for me
14:01	gfredericks	I think let-> got rejected because it makes you want a vector of bindings
15:59	saolsen	anybody know a good parser library? There seem to be a bunch but I can't tell which is the most mature/stable/widely used
16:01	technomancy	saolsen: none of them are still maintained IIRC
16:02	arrdem	am I right in remembering that nREPL is supposed to succeed SLIME?
16:02	arrdem	technomancy: I found a good new one a few days back lemme dig for a minute
16:02	technomancy	arrdem: that's right; nrepl.el is the way forward
16:02	arrdem	saolsen: this is something I found a few days back, it was surprisingly easy to work with https://github.com/richard-lyman/amotoen
16:04	arrdem	saolsen: it may not be exactly what you want... I admit I was very frustrated by the lack of a "require one or more" token, you have to compose a "require one" and a "require 0 or more"
16:05	saolsen	arrdem: yeah I'll have to look into it. Looks like it could work.
16:06	saolsen	arrdem: I was hoping there would be a port of parsec to clojure, though I guess that could be aukward / tricky to port
16:06	technomancy	I think there are a couple half-finished ports
16:06	arrdem	yeah...
16:06	arrdem	I don't remember any full ports
16:06	bawr	I know those are very different beasts, but someone pressed me for an answer - is there a sensible Clojure / OCaml or F# comparison somewhere out there?
16:06	saolsen	i found fnparse
16:07	saolsen	but it looks unmaintained
16:07	arrdem	saolsen: oooh yea
16:07	technomancy	fnparse is old as the hills
16:07	bawr	And yeah, I do realise how odd and wrong the question is. >_>
16:07	arrdem	fnparse is a very nice system and I enjoyed working with it but it has been abandoned for years
16:08	arrdem	there exists an update for 1.3.0 at least tho so no need to use the old contrib "official" one.
16:09	technomancy	bawr: I've done a little bit of ocaml. the main disadvantage of ocaml is that the libraries and tooling are really weak compared to what's on the JVM. it also felt a bit dated in a few other ways like the regex engine. but if you need to write close-to-the-metal code it's much better than Clojure at being lightweight.
16:09	arrdem	technomancy: is there a compelling reason for me to migrate from vim/vimclojure to emacs/slime?
16:09	arrdem	darp darp nrepl
16:10	technomancy	arrdem: if you are going to use emacs just for editing clojure, it might not be worth it. but if you're going to use Emacs like it's supposed to be used (IRC, email, note-taking, shells, version control, etc) then definitely.
16:10	bawr	technomancy: how's does OCaml fare with immutable / persistent data structures, though? Can it sensibly do immutable by default / etc?
16:11	technomancy	bawr: yeah, OCaml does a good job of encouraging immutability but being pragmatic about falling back to imperative code when you absolutely need to get the last bit of perf.
16:11	bawr	I see.
16:12	ivaraasen	technomancy: OCaml seems pretty nice, really. I'm trying out ocaml-batteries-included later this evening
16:12	technomancy	arrdem: your enjoyment of Emacs is going to be proportional to how much you hate using programs that aren't written in lisp.
16:12	technomancy	personally it drives me absolutely batty when I try to use a program and it won't let me rewrite core functionality on the fly.
16:13	arrdem	technomancy: hahaha we shall see. I have a vim/tmux/lein/irssi work environmen that has served me well... debating uninstalling vim and making myself switch while its the holidays and I can
16:13	bawr	Performance aside, is there anything that Clojure does very well that OCaml doesn't? Mostly regarding concurrency / multiprocessing, but other insights are welcome, too.
16:13	technomancy	arrdem: just don't think of it as a replacement for vim; that's just the tip of the iceberg
16:13	azkesz	hey guys, what would you recommend me do if I wanted to search for a pattern of bytes with holes in a file? something like 0x77 0x12 (anycharhere) 0x88 . Could you tell me how you'd do it?
16:14	arrdem	azkesz: so a regex on bytes?
16:14	arrdem	herm...
16:14	technomancy	bawr: oh yeah, OCaml's GC is kind of lame; doesn't allow for true concurrency. but the most noticeable difference is definitely the access to Java libraries and tools.
16:14	arrdem	azkesz: I think that the standard regex library could work...
16:15	arrdem	depending. lemme try something and brb.
16:15	technomancy	ivaraasen: I used OCaml to write a replacement for dmenu, but then the latest version of dmenu has added the features I wanted, so I don't have anything to use it for.
16:15	azkesz	arrdem, interesting... I haven't thought of that...
16:15	saolsen	fnparse has lots of docs, and a bunch of talk about verion 2 and version 3
16:15	saolsen	and then just no updates after 2012 :(
16:15	technomancy	saolsen: fnparse requires Clojure 1.2
16:15	technomancy	you don't want that =\
16:15	arrdem	saolsen: version 2 is what's live. v3 was never written
16:15	saolsen	er, after 2010
16:15	dnolen	bawr: meta programming in a Lisp is pretty nice - a large subset of Clojure compiles to optimizable JS
16:15	arrdem	technomancy: hey there man, there are about three update forks.
16:16	wingy	so if you wanna do iOS, Android and Windows apps you are forced to OOP?
16:16	technomancy	arrdem: heh; fair enough
16:16	egghead	arrdem: I switched from vim to emacs, it's been enjoyable
16:16	technomancy	arrdem: I just remember clojurebot was stuck on 1.2 for a long time because of fnparse
16:16	wingy	but the backend can still be in clj right?
16:16	azkesz	arrdem, how would you read the file? and the apply some regex on it
16:16	technomancy	bawr: yeah, homoiconicity is a nice-to-have too but IMO not nearly as important as access to a large set of libraries
16:18	arrdem	azkesz: you would just slurp it as a string and apply a regex appropriate to the bytes
16:18	arrdem	there may be a better way to do that tho
16:18	azkesz	cool
16:18	azkesz	I kinda just needed the basic idea, thanks arrdem
16:19	arrdem	azkesz: no problem. Java has (and therefore Clojure has) a way to encode a byte literal in a string, you probably want to use that.
16:19	technomancy	bawr: F# probably doesn't have the concurrency problems OCaml does
16:19	technomancy	and it probably has better library support, though still not nearly as good as Clojure
16:20	borkdude	technomancy what do you mean with library support?
16:20	arrdem	,(= (str 0x77) "\0x77")
16:20	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid digit: x>
16:20	technomancy	borkdude: being able to pull in lucene and stuff
16:20	technomancy	borkdude: for my simple OCaml library I tried to pull in xlib in order to change the WM properties of my program and it was an absolute nightmare
16:21	azkesz	arrdem, btw is there a lib that maybe already does all this? like for applying binary patches
16:21	borkdude	if you're into .NET F# is a great choice - that makes me wonder, how is clojureclr these days?
16:21	technomancy	half the libraries used makefiles; the rest were split among 2 or 3 competing ocaml build tools
16:21	arrdem	azkesz: I have no idea... I would hope so tho.
16:21	borkdude	azkesz do you need to find this pattern once or multiple times?
16:21	technomancy	and they actually expect you to install some 3rd-party libraries using apt-get which is foolish
16:22	arrdem	technomancy: because we all roll Debian...
16:22	azkesz	borkdude: probably multiple times, as in to make sure it only occurs once
16:22	technomancy	arrdem: I <3 Debian, but apt-get is not appropriate for distributing development libraries.
16:22	technomancy	it's designed for end-user applications, and that's the only thing it's good at
16:23	azkesz	borkdude: but sometimes it occurs more than once and it's ok too (since the context for it is the same for two different locations that need a change to happen)
16:23	egghead	isn't scala closer to the OCaml heritage? It's highly influenced by ML
16:23	wink	that would at least explain why I found it so weird :P
16:23	technomancy	egghead: F# is much closer from what I gather
16:24	borkdude	egghead technomancy I also think F# is closer
16:24	technomancy	scala cribs more from Haskell
16:24	zilti	That Prismatics Graph, is this a freely available library and I just haven't found it yet, or do I have to use something else, similar?
16:24	technomancy	but even then, interop with Java forces it to give up on HM inference, which is a huge drag
16:24	saolsen	zilti: they never released it but there are 2 alternatives
16:24	technomancy	zilti: Prismatic deleted all their OSS repos from GitHub =(
16:25	ibdknox	F# basically is OCaml
16:25	technomancy	you can still find some of them around but I would not trust them
16:25	zilti	saolsen technomancy Oh... That's a disappointment. Then I'll take a look at these alternatives (someone posted the links yesterday)
16:25	azkesz	borkdude, were you thinking that I should use some caching? maybe clojure.core.cache?(no idea)
16:25	wink	ibdknox: oh, thanks for the warning :P
16:25	arrdem	azkesz: I did some digging and it looks like the regex library doesn't behave nicely for arbitrary bytes because of string encoding nonsense
16:26	azkesz	arrdem, oh i see... thanks for this
16:26	egghead	technomancy: I didn't know that :(
16:26	ibdknox	I wonder if that means they're trying to sell
16:27	azkesz	arrdem, when you slurp the file is it converted into something like UTF-8? if that makes any sense
16:27	technomancy	ibdknox: I can't imagine any other reason
16:27	ibdknox	technomancy: me neither
16:27	azkesz	arrdem, for example can I read the UTF-8 bom at the beginning of a file ?
16:27	technomancy	then again, I can't imagine any competent buyers who would actually consider deleting GitHub repos (with a promise of "they'll be back some day, honest") a good thing
16:28	ibdknox	it's a baggage thing
16:28	ibdknox	I could easily see that being written into someone's terms
16:28	ibdknox	especially if they EOL'ing the product
16:28	ibdknox	they're*
16:28	arrdem	azkesz: not sure.
16:28	azkesz	hey guys can anyone suggest me a lib or something to handle raw bytes from ie. an exe file?
16:28	gfredericks	just because leaving them up but not maintained looks somehow worse than taking them down?
16:29	gfredericks	(trying to understand what the baggage consists of)
16:29	ibdknox	gfredericks: them being there requires some amount of attention. Acquisitions for parts are very slash and burn in style
16:30	ibdknox	you don't want any loose ends even if they may not be something that will actually cause trouble
16:30	gfredericks	ah
16:31	ibdknox	you never know what might be hiding there
16:31	ibdknox	lol
16:31	ibdknox	M&A is a weird business
16:31	azkesz	I'll take a look at gloss, but I don't want to define any structures though
16:31	ibdknox	it's kind of like a chop-shop :(
16:32	gfredericks	I interviewed at a mountain-view company once after having only worked for a state govt and a university. it was very foreign.
16:33	arrdem	azkesz: gotcha http://code.google.com/p/byteseek/
16:33	technomancy	azkesz: java.io.DataInputStream maybe
16:33	ibdknox	gfredericks: haha, yeah those are very different worlds
16:34	azkesz	arrdem, thank you, this seems to be the thing, looking into it; technomancy I'll take a look at that if this fails
16:35	arrdem	azkesz: do us all a favor and if you use this throw a Clojure wrapper up on GH. If you don't then I will XP
16:35	azkesz	arrdem, ok; what's XP?
16:35	borkdude	Xterminate you Personally
16:35	azkesz	arrdem, btw, I don't think I'm good enough to do that, but I'll try :D
16:36	arrdem	azkesz: it's a smiley face intended to indicate a tougue in cheek comment
16:36	azkesz	lol
16:36	bawr	technomancy: dnolen: Thanks, that gives me a starting point.
16:36	egghead	my copy of the reasoned schemer finally arrived :)
16:36	azkesz	borkdude, way to hype up the drama :D
16:41	azkesz	arrdem, I think you should do it (wrapper) cause if I try I will mess it up
16:41	azkesz	(still reading for now)
16:41	arrdem	azkesz: feh ok. it'll be an exuse for me to do my first serious clj library.
16:41	azkesz	awesome
16:42	arrdem	technomancy: emacs just took the back seat, there is work to be done X-P
16:45	joevandyk	i can use a Groovy library in clojure, right?
16:45	bawr	Yup.
16:45	joevandyk	say i want to use http://freeside.co/betamax/ ?
16:45	devn	happy holidays folks
16:45	joevandyk	i use the standard ways of calling java code from clojure?
16:46	technomancy	joevandyk: if it exposes a java class, then sure.
16:46	technomancy	might be trickier if it's designed to be used from groovy only
16:46	devn	it's times like these, when i'm sitting with family, head buried in my laptop reading the codeq schema
16:46	devn	when i think of you, fair clojurians
16:46	azkesz	got no chrismas tree in my cave :)
16:46	arrdem	hehe I built a cave when I came home for christmas
16:46	bawr	devn: I can relate ^^
16:46	zilti	What the heck is christmas anyway?
16:47	zilti	^^
16:47	bawr	devn: I borrowed a laptop from my sister to just play some games... and I've installed LightTable already. xD
16:47	gfredericks	any short answer to that will upset somebody
16:47	arrdem	(inc gfredericks)
16:47	lazybot	⇒ 13
16:48	gfredericks	ooh lucky
16:48	ibdknox	"a holiday" seems safe ;)
16:48	borkdude	ibdknox holy day? ;)
16:48	arrdem	azkesz: yeah so I'm digging into this and it's one srs buisness library
16:48	ibdknox	lol
16:48	bawr	Let's not get PC-crazy. xD
16:48	gfredericks	ibdknox is always in here pushing his religion on us
16:49	bawr	I mean, if I wanted to push my religion, I'd... Hm.
16:49	arrdem	INTERNET FIGHT
16:49	bawr	I don't even know what the Discordian equivalent of Christmas is. xD
16:49	azkesz	arrdem, yeah it looks great and it's like exactly what I want
16:49	arrdem	azkesz: haha yeah I'm just looking at this and realizing that a wrapper is gonna be huge
16:51	bawr	ibdknox: is lighttable looking for some leisurely devs, or should I just look at making CodeMirror better? ;)
16:55	ibdknox	bawr: for right now, CodeMirror is the best avenue. In the not too distant future, though, there will be a plugin system that would love some attention ;)
16:55	bawr	That works.
16:56	bawr	One small feature I'd love is getting some feedback from Leiningen shown when creating a project, for a while I thought it hanged on me.
16:56	ibdknox	hm
16:56	ibdknox	what version of LT are you using?
16:57	ibdknox	we don't have project creation in there anymore (for now)
16:57	bawr	Uh, I downloaded the newest from the site.
16:57	ibdknox	bawr: the one from here? http://www.lighttable.com/
16:57	bawr	Yeah, Linux32.
16:58	ibdknox	ah, you mean when it's connecting? :)
16:58	bawr	Aye, well it prompted me to create a project. ;)
16:58	ibdknox	unfortunately most of that time is spent spinning up a JVM
16:59	bawr	Hmm. Any way of letting me use drip or some of the persistend JVM wrappers if I so desired?
16:59	ibdknox	if it's fetching deps, it's at least nice enough to tell you that
16:59	ibdknox	bawr you can use lein-light
16:59	bawr	Yeah, though it'd be nice to see what it's fetching, took surprisingly long here, given that I have a good connection.
16:59	bawr	Maybe it's just a leiningen thing.
17:00	ibdknox	the thing it does is essentially run a leiningen plugin manually
17:00	ibdknox	lein-light is that plugin. With that you can just use lein to connect
17:00	bawr	Oh, I see.
17:00	ibdknox	in not too long I'll be moving over to nrepl too, so we'll have those options as well
17:01	bawr	heh, I guess development is going well behind the scenes ;)
17:03	ibdknox	well it's still just me building it right now, but I'm hoping to announce at least one if not maybe two hires pretty soon :)
17:05	bawr	heh, I missed the kickstarter, but I'm glad it worked ;)
17:06	bawr	Any plans of open-sourcing the core while it's being developed, or will that be considered later?
17:07	ibdknox	it will be open sourced, exactly when is still an open question
17:07	seangrove	Hrm, what's a convenient way to interpose a function return value into the sequence, so that the function is called for each interposed value
17:07	gfredericks	three days before closed-sourcing it for M&A
17:08	bawr	M&A?
17:08	ibdknox	at the very latest it'll be by v1 (summer 2013), though there's a good chance it'll be when the beta goes public
17:08	gfredericks	bawr: that's what I thought 30 minutes ago
17:08	seangrove	,(interpose #(rand-int 100) [1 1 1 1 1])
17:08	clojurebot	(1 #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28 sandbox$eval27$fn__28@35a99473> 1 #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28 sandbox$eval27$fn__28@35a99473> 1 ...)
17:08	ibdknox	Mergers and Acquisitions
17:08	bawr	ah
17:08	ibdknox	gfredericks: fortunately in our case, that'll be impossible
17:08	seangrove	hrm, why's that?
17:09	Bronsa	, (interleave (repeatedly #(rand-int 100)) [1 1 1 1])
17:09	clojurebot	(40 1 4 1 29 ...)
17:09	Bronsa	seangrove: ^
17:10	seangrove	Ah, nice, thanks Bronsa, was just getting to interleave
17:10	arrdem	,(doc interleave)
17:10	clojurebot	"([c1 c2] [c1 c2 & colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
17:10	bbloom	i'm blanking on the name of the lib that is like hiccup, but is xml-style maps of tag, attrs, and content rather than vectors... what was it again?
17:10	gfredericks	enlive?
17:10	clojurebot	enlive is for generating HTML from pure-markup templates: http://wiki.github.com/cgrand/enlive/getting-started
17:11	bbloom	gfredericks: i don't need transformation at all, just html printing
17:11	gfredericks	bbloom: it was my only guess
17:11	weavejester	Does anyone happen to know how to resolve the symbols in a quoted form?
17:12	bawr	ibdknox: well, can't wait until we're at least able to write plugins. it's about damn time someone started rethinking the IDE.
17:12	seangrove	gfredericks: was it inspired by a haskell lib?
17:12	weavejester	i.e. turn '(+ 1 1) into '(clojure.core/+ 1 1)
17:12	bbloom	weavejester: ##(doc resolve) ?
17:12	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
17:12	bbloom	heh.
17:12	bbloom	(doc resolve)
17:12	clojurebot	"([sym] [env sym]); same as (ns-resolve ns symbol) or (ns-resolve ns &env symbol)"
17:12	xeqi	bbloom: data.xml?
17:12	weavejester	bbloom: resolve just works for symbols though
17:12	weavejester	I was hoping to avoid walking the tree and resolving all the symbols
17:12	weavejester	I'm not completely sure it would work, either
17:12	weavejester	Especially for macros
17:13	bbloom	what do you mean by quoted?
17:13	bbloom	,''foo
17:13	clojurebot	(quote foo)
17:13	seangrove	macroexpand...?
17:13	clojurebot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/bba604cee3b232d9/28837d55525306d8?lnk=gst&q=recursive+macroexpand#28837d55525306d8
17:13	bbloom	like that?
17:13	seangrove	,(macroexpand '(+ 1 1))
17:13	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
17:13	bbloom	xeqi: i think that's what i wanted, thanks
17:13	seangrove	Ah, no
17:13	seangrove	hah
17:14	bawr	,(macroexpand '(or 1 2))
17:14	clojurebot	(let* [or__2243__auto__ 1] (if or__2243__auto__ or__2243__auto__ (clojure.core/or 2)))
17:14	weavejester	I mean given a form with symbols that are not resolved, how to resolve them in a way that accounts for macros and other forms
17:14	ibdknox	,(macroexpand '(when true :true))
17:14	clojurebot	(if true (do :true))
17:14	bawr	Seems legit.
17:14	weavejester	e.g. '(+ 1 (* 2 2)) => '(cloure.core/+ 1 (clojure.core* 2 2))
17:14	bbloom	ibdknox: not a great example, since all the special forms are un-namespaced
17:14	weavejester	I guess I could macroexpand and then walk the tree and resolve
17:14	joevandyk	is http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ up to date?
17:15	weavejester	But it seems like there should be something to do that
17:15	ibdknox	weavejester: yeah that's what you have to do
17:15	bawr	Hmm.
17:15	weavejester	joevandyk: No...
17:15	bawr	,(macroexpand '(or 1 2 3))
17:15	clojurebot	(let* [or__2243__auto__ 1] (if or__2243__auto__ or__2243__auto__ (clojure.core/or 2 3)))
17:15	joevandyk	weavejester: there a better source for recommend libraries?
17:15	weavejester	I've been meaning on updating clojure toolbox with some sort of auto scraper
17:15	bbloom	bawr: that's a better example
17:15	technomancy	joevandyk: http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com is better
17:15	borkdude	,(second `'(+ 1 1))
17:15	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 1)
17:15	technomancy	though still a bit behind the times
17:15	jkkramer	the url is http://www.clojuresphere.com/ now - should probably make a redirect
17:16	bawr	bbloom: Yeah, at first I expected macroexpand to be recursive.
17:16	joevandyk	is there a rule of thumb for picking a clojure library vs one in a different language?
17:16	weavejester	,(let [x '(+ 1 1)] `~x)
17:16	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
17:16	technomancy	joevandyk: nothing beats asking on IRC =)
17:16	bbloom	bawr: there is macroexpand-all in walk
17:16	technomancy	jkkramer: cool
17:16	bbloom	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:16	bawr	bbloom: ooh.
17:16	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
17:16	bbloom	,(walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: walk, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:16	bbloom	shrug
17:16	bbloom	&(walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:16	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: walk
17:16	Bronsa	,(require 'clojure.walk)
17:16	clojurebot	nil
17:16	bbloom	&(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:16	lazybot	⇒ (let* [or__3824__auto__ 1] (if or__3824__auto__ or__3824__auto__ (let* [or__3824__auto__ 2] (if or__3824__auto__ or__3824__auto__ 3))))
17:16	bbloom	there
17:17	bbloom	pick a bot and a namespace
17:17	Bronsa	,(walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: walk, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:17	Bronsa	derp.
17:17	bbloom	of course there are 4 permutations, and i try all 4 of them before getting it right
17:17	Bronsa	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(or 1 2 3))
17:17	clojurebot	(let* [or__2243__auto__ 1] (if or__2243__auto__ or__2243__auto__ (let* [or__2243__auto__ 2] (if or__2243__auto__ or__2243__auto__ 3))))
17:17	bawr	Why do we have such an ungodly number od bots, anyway.
17:17	Bronsa	2 is ungodly?
17:17	weavejester	,(read-string (pr-str '(+1 1)))
17:17	clojurebot	(1 1)
17:17	technomancy	Bronsa: well it's not three
17:18	arrdem	bawr: 2 isn't really that bad..
17:18	Bronsa	should we make it be three then?
17:18	weavejester	,(read-string (pr-str '(+ 1 1)))
17:18	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
17:18	arrdem	lets do it!
17:18	Bronsa	you start
17:18	bawr	I thought there was 3. My triple bad. ;)
17:18	arrdem	that was sarcasm
17:18	Bronsa	mine too
17:18	bawr	*were
17:19	bawr	Clearly, all spare blood went to my stomach.
17:19	arrdem	(inc technomancy)
17:19	lazybot	⇒ 44
17:19	borkdude	technomancy binitarianism is more common among geeks
17:19	arrdem	,(bool 'bawr)
17:19	bawr	technomancy: There's only one Eris, even if she also goes by Discordia.
17:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bool in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:20	weavejester	,(eval (read-string (str "`" (pr-str '(+ 1 1)))))
17:20	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:20	bawr	technomancy: But I refuse to do reference counting. ;)
17:21	weavejester	(fn [form] (eval (read-string (str \` (pr-str form)))))
17:22	weavejester	That works, but it… bleh
17:22	joevandyk	best way to do interactive web app tests? (like https://github.com/jnicklas/capybara)
17:23	joevandyk	maybe interactive's the wrong word. i mean being able to simulate clicks, filling in forms, checking boxes, etc
17:23	technomancy	joevandyk: peridot and kerodon both look great
17:23	technomancy	kerodon probably for that
17:23	xeqi	joevandyk: I've got something similar in nature (though incomplete) at https://github.com/xeqi/kerodon ; or you can go full stack with https://github.com/semperos/clj-webdriver
17:23	phaer	joevandyk: You could use selenium trough java
17:24	joevandyk	there's a headless selenium thing, right?
17:24	joevandyk	that can do basic javascript?
17:25	xeqi	supposedly you can use htmlunit for that
17:25	xeqi	haven't done it myself
17:25	bbloom	joevandyk: if you like capybara, just use it
17:25	bbloom	no need to limit yourself just to clojure
17:25	phaer	joevandyk: Depends what you define as "headless".
17:25	bbloom	integration tests can be completely isolated anyway
17:26	joevandyk	phaer: being able to run in an environment without a graphical x server
17:26	xeqi	I usually just run my selenium test in an xvfb session
17:26	phaer	joevandyk: You can use firefox + xvfb for a complete browser or htmlunit.
17:26	joevandyk	hm
17:26	joevandyk	i should look into that
17:29	arrdem	w00t live in nrepl! I have no idea how to emacs..
17:30	arrdem	technomancy: do tell
17:30	technomancy	every time there's a multiline value I always feel like I should separate the pred/value pairs with newlines
17:31	technomancy	but I hate that cond is the only place where non-toplevel newlines
17:31	arrdem	ah. this pain I have felt.
17:32	Bronsa	gomai
17:32	Bronsa	ops.
17:33	arrdem	I have a zsh nested in emacs. what is going on here.
17:39	bbloom	technomancy: i hate that. finally decided just to indent values 2 spaces
17:39	technomancy	clojure-1.4-compatible slamhound 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT release is on clojars
17:39	bbloom	it looks weird, but it offends me least
17:40	technomancy	my solution is normally to just quit using cond
17:40	technomancy	I wonder if core.match has that problem too
17:40	bbloom	that also works
17:40	bbloom	one other choice: short predicate and transformation names
17:40	technomancy	heh; yeah
17:41	bbloom	either def or let some nicely named functions and make a nice neat table out of those w/ cond
17:43	Baughn	I'm attempting to write plugins for a system that uses a significant number of custom annotations. Is this something I can use clojure to do?
17:43	bbloom	Baughn: java annotations?
17:43	Baughn	Yes
17:48	Baughn	bbloom: There's nothing in the documentation, so I guess not?
17:50	weavejester	I think I might have written the worst function I ever have in Clojure...
17:51	weavejester	(defn resolve-form [form]
17:51	weavejester	(eval (read-string (str \` (pr-str form)))))
17:51	weavejester	It works, though...
17:51	Baughn	If you can call invoking the compiler at runtime "works"..
17:51	Baughn	I do hope you aren't expecting performance from that. :P :P
17:51	weavejester	Oh, it's being called by a macro
17:51	Baughn	Ah
17:52	Baughn	..I expect ` also exists as a symbol that you could wrap the form in
17:52	Baughn	Well, special form
17:52	weavejester	Yeah, there should be a better way
17:52	weavejester	Although...
17:53	callen	weavejester: dare I ask what project necessitated that?
17:53	weavejester	I'm trying to send a form to be remotely evaluated
17:54	weavejester	It kinda seemed a good idea to resolve the form first
17:54	bbloom	weavejester: my backquote library allows pluggable resolvers, you could port the relevant bits from compiler.java, it's only 15 or 20 lines or so
17:54	bbloom	i'd accept that pull request :-)
17:54	weavejester	bbloom: What's your library called?
17:54	bbloom	weavejester: github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
17:55	weavejester	Ah, I see
17:55	Baughn	<weavejester> I'm going to call eval on data I got from a remote source
17:55	Baughn	Please excuse me while I panic
17:55	weavejester	Baughn: It's for a distributed calculation
17:56	weavejester	So I have N worker processes consuming a queue
17:56	Baughn	weavejester: Throwing around live code is still.. worrying
17:56	bbloom	weavejester: my library is basically a port of https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L756 & there are some resolution bits in there that could be ported too
17:56	Baughn	weavejester: A network like that could be hilariously easy to break into. Make sure you at least use SSL.
17:57	bbloom	in particular https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L777-817
17:57	weavejester	Baughn: Well, that's the part that's bugging me, too. Not the security so much, but the fact that it's a leaky abstraction.
18:01	Baughn	So apparently, clojure /does/ support annotations, it's just not documented?
18:01	Baughn	Er.. well, why not.
18:03	weavejester	Maybe I'm looking at this problem in the wrong way...
18:03	bbloom	Baughn: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/fa899d22dceb531d9f5af833ac6af0d956e6bdc7
18:03	Baughn	bbloom: Yeah, I found that.
18:03	callen	does anybody here know Yogthos?
18:03	callen	he made that Luminus web dev template.
18:04	bbloom	Baughn: maybe open a bug on jira to improve that documentation?}
18:04	Baughn	I'm not sure that counts as documentation, but to be fair, it /does/ include.. ..okay, no comments.
18:04	bbloom	clojure's web site is starting to be in need of a big overhaul
18:04	Baughn	bbloom: Hehe, I'd rather open a bug to expand all of the documentation
18:05	callen	bbloom: ooh ooh, pick me pick me
18:05	bbloom	Baughn: more targeted feedback is likely to be more actionable
18:05	Baughn	Granted.
18:05	Baughn	bbloom: I'm going to start by learning to use clojure. We'll see later.
18:05	Baughn	I literally ran hello, world half an hour ago.
18:06	bbloom	Baughn: take some notes of what you struggle with and what's poorly documented, so you can help us help others later :-)
18:06	Baughn	Sounds like a plan
18:06	callen	Baughn: btw, http://clojure-doc.org/
18:06	bbloom	Baughn: that said, i may avoid java interop while you're learning clojure
18:06	callen	Baughn: hang with the Clojurewerkz guys, they'll take care of you.
18:06	Baughn	bbloom: The only thing I want it for is java interop, though. :P
18:06	Baughn	I'll manage.
18:06	bbloom	start with the pure, functional subset of clojure and slowly expand your skill set to include the more complex bits
18:07	bbloom	if you're doing 100% java interop, you might just be better off writing java :-P
18:07	callen	If Java is the only thing you're interested in, then use Java. You're here because there's something else you're interested in.
18:07	Baughn	I'm writing a minecraft mod. There's going to be a bit of interop first, and then I can wander off into pure clojure-land.
18:07	pipeline	other jvm languages exist for 100% java interop
18:07	pipeline	scala and groovy are both much more practical for that
18:07	callen	Baughn: that's a sweet idea for a project.
18:07	Baughn	callen: I didn't even tell you what the project /is/. ^^;
18:08	callen	Baughn: I don't care, I want a Clojure wrapper/framework for making Minecraft mods.
18:08	Baughn	callen: ..I can work with that.
18:08	callen	it could end up being so quick and easy to produce Minecraft mods if there's a nice Clojure library...
18:08	Baughn	Getting clojure to work with MCP might be fun, yurk
18:08	arrdem	minecraft?
18:08	callen	arrdem: Minecraft.
18:09	arrdem	yay I'm not alone here!
18:09	callen	Baughn: MCP is kinda pissy about their tools. They may get upset if you wrap it in Clojure.
18:09	Baughn	callen: ..my eyes doth bleed tears of sorrow for their loss
18:10	callen	Baughn: I'm just saying, they outline pretty strictly what you can and cannot do with their stuff
18:10	callen	Baughn: you need written permission to respin their tools IIRC
18:10	Baughn	callen: Hopefully there's no need to do that
18:10	callen	Baughn: Iuno. I'm just a derpy web dev.
18:11	pipeline	i wouldn't worry too much about mcp
18:11	pipeline	i'm sure they mostly want to prevent forking
18:12	Baughn	callen: I already got kickbanned from #redpower from asking if it was okay to try interoperating with blutricity, so yeah.
18:12	Baughn	Most of their claims are utterly unenforcable anyway
18:13	Raynes	ho ho ho
18:13	arrdem	haha I spend time in #computercraft threatening to replace LUA with clojure
18:13	callen	Baughn: so much of the Minecraft community are utter children
18:14	callen	bbloom: how'd you sucker him into joining the dark side?
18:14	bbloom	callen: who what?
18:14	callen	bbloom: oh it just seemed like he was a convert you'd brought in or something.
18:14	bbloom	i don't convert, i educate
18:14	Baughn	Nah, I've always liked lisp.
18:15	callen	fine fine, kill the joke.
18:15	arrdem	callen: it was dead on arrival mate.
18:15	Baughn	Haven't /used/ it much, but the choices for decent JRE languages are pretty sparse
18:15	bbloom	what arrdem said
18:16	callen	arrdem: thanks
18:16	Raynes	callen: Doesn't that apply to gaming in general?
18:16	Raynes	Any given Halo game is full of lolnoobheadshotomg
18:17	callen	Raynes: nah, I participate in some cool game communities.
18:17	callen	Raynes: it's commonly true though.
18:17	Raynes	Like?
18:17	bbloom	Raynes: there are plenty of adults playing halo, but they've just got the tv on mute b/c their kids are sleeping and don't have a microphone b/c they've sat on three of them already and keep snapping the cheap plastic
18:17	Raynes	I mean, I haven't come across a game that had an idiot free community.
18:18	the-kenny	Fifa 2013 </irony>
18:18	callen	bbloom: I hear someone speaking from experience.
18:18	Raynes	bbloom: Halo is great online as long as you avoid audio.
18:18	callen	yogthos: hey, it's Mob_of_One here.
18:18	bbloom	callen: no kids, but my gf works/sleeps odd hours :-P
18:18	callen	bbloom: that'll do it.
18:18	callen	bbloom: suffering has a way of providing perspective :)
18:19	Raynes	bbloom: I played Dead Island and didn't have a way to turn off the other player's mic audio, so I had to listen to this 11 year old yell "KICK ME. KICK ME DUDE. KICK ME" for God knows why for half an hour until he got tired.
18:19	Raynes	Funfact: you can't kick the other player
18:20	callen	Raynes: I got tired of that game quickly.
18:20	yogthos	hey
18:20	callen	Raynes: single or multiplayer
18:20	callen	yogthos: hi, so Luminus.
18:20	yogthos	yeah :)
18:20	yogthos	so far so good lol
18:20	callen	yogthos: so a few thoughts. Yes, good so far. The advantage of a template as opposed to a framework is that interested parties can rip out the irrelevant parts quickly.
18:20	bbloom	heh. oh the pain of being an 18 year old programming prodigy with a quick wit surrounded by reverse-prodigies
18:20	callen	yogthos: it's worth keeping in mind that you're making a specificity/friction trade-off.
18:21	Raynes	callen: I found it way too repetitive. The worst part was that the character's movement made me want to toss my lunch and I got dizzy if I played it for very long. They went way overboard.
18:21	bbloom	anyway, this is absurdly off topic
18:21	callen	Raynes: I didn't get dizzy, but I found very much like performing chores.
18:21	bbloom	how about that clojure stuff guys?
18:21	arrdem	bbloom: buzkill
18:21	Raynes	I've been playing Far Cry 2 which makes a similar attempt at emulating human movements, but it does it much better.
18:21	callen	yogthos: so if you provide a sqlite thingy in the models, somebody gunna have to rip it out
18:21	yogthos	yup
18:21	callen	yogthos: also, providing a prebaked database config presumes you know the best way to manage prod/dev configs
18:21	Raynes	bbloom: I don't think anyone cares at this exact moment in time.
18:21	yogthos	so one option is just to have some modules
18:22	callen	yogthos: so there's an interdependency that will cause a cascading series of rip-outs if you're not careful.
18:22	arrdem	it's christmas for christsake
18:22	yogthos	it's sort of how it's assembled already
18:22	Raynes	bbloom: callen and I can come over to your house and talk about this though, if it'd make you happier.
18:22	bbloom	i was kidding :-P
18:22	callen	yogthos: modularization is a great idea, I don't know how to do combinatoric lein plugins though.
18:22	Raynes	Right. In. Your. Ear.
18:22	callen	Raynes: I like video games anyway. I dun mind.
18:22	bbloom	Raynes: doors open. bring some beer
18:22	callen	yogthos: maybe do defaults with the ability to pass overrides on an as needed basis?
18:22	arrdem	bbloom: is that an open invite I hear? beer's cheap...
18:22	Raynes	bbloom: All I have is hard lemonade.
18:23	callen	yogthos: that seems plausible, but the config stack is probably going to have be fixed/invariant.
18:23	callen	yogthos: you might even want to base the template on a dynamic templating system with overrides or something.
18:23	callen	yogthos: but lets rollback a bit to reality
18:24	Baughn	callen: Ideally, I can get a Clojure loader into MCP as a 'mod'. The only real problem is that mods have to be, well, obfuscated - which doesn't play very nice with dynamic languages.
18:24	Baughn	callen: But I'll give it a go.
18:25	Raynes	cemerick: Happy Christmas eve.
18:26	cemerick	Raynes: Merry Winter Solstice (ish)
18:26	callen	Baughn: wait, why are mods obfuscated?
18:26	callen	HAPPY YULE
18:26	arrdem	okay. this emacs thing is proving a bit of a pain and I'm done with working. blergh
18:26	Baughn	callen: Because minecraft is
18:26	Raynes	callen: gtfo wiccan
18:26	arrdem	^ yeah. that.
18:26	arrdem	er... not what I meant at all..
18:27	Baughn	Oh, right. Happy newtonmas!
18:27	callen	Raynes: I'm not wiccan, I merely honor my ancestors by getting drunk and fat over the holidays. :)
18:27	callen	Baughn: newtonmas, nice!
18:27	Raynes	But do you dance in a circle?
18:28	callen	Raynes: when I get drunk enough, yes.
18:28	Raynes	Only Wiccans dance in a circle.
18:28	callen	I'm preparing Mongolian BBQ for dinner tonight >:D
18:28	callen	Raynes: this reminds me of the witch test in Monty Python
18:28	Baughn	'twas a silly test. Everyone knows wood doesn't float.
18:28	Baughn	<- Aquarist
18:28	callen	I'm a cancer.
18:29	callen	if you ask the right people, they'll abbreviate to, "he's cancer"
18:29	Raynes	Stop spreading.
18:29	cemerick	Christians have done more for pagan rituals than the pagans could have ever hoped.
18:29	Baughn	callen: Like that cancer-based suppervillain?
18:30	Raynes	cemerick: We were talking about video games before you joined, bro.
18:30	Raynes	You don't even know what OT is.
18:30	cemerick	fair
18:30	cemerick	I miss gaming.
18:30	Raynes	So, what do you mean?
18:30	cemerick	sometimes, anyway
18:30	callen	cemerick: btw, loving the book.
18:30	Raynes	re: pagan rituals
18:31	callen	cemerick: it's been a great read a few pages, hack for awhile, go back and read more companion.
18:31	callen	cemerick: the section on delay/futures/promises/deliver was choice.
18:31	cemerick	callen: \m/ Feel free to leave a review eventually if you think it's warranted.
18:31	cemerick	sweet
18:31	Raynes	I found that cemerick's book made excellent tinder for the fire this year.
18:31	callen	cemerick: I'm actually going to use that section to teach my frontend guy how promises/futures work.
18:31	callen	even though he doesn't know Clojure (lol)
18:32	Raynes	Futures and promises make more sense in Clojure than they do in most.
18:32	twem2	7
18:32	Raynes	6
18:32	callen	Raynes: the for comprehension deref equivalence thing in Scala was loony.
18:32	callen	Raynes: there's like zero symmetry in Scala.
18:32	cemerick	Raynes: Worshipping nature idols (Christmas tree), celebrating natural rebirth by lionizing the Easter Bunny, eggs, etc.
18:33	yogthos	scala is like a cauldron lol :P
18:33	Raynes	cemerick: Interesting observation.
18:33	bbloom	callen: Scala's for syntax is basically haskell's do syntax
18:33	yogthos	it's the C++ approach of just adding every feature known to man into one language
18:33	callen	bbloom: I don't like Haskell either. COINCIDENCE?!
18:33	bbloom	map and flatMap are scala's list monad names, but they generalize to the monadic laws
18:34	callen	yogthos: yeah, that's why I always snort whenever people tell me Scala is "simpler than Java"
18:34	bbloom	callen: http://blog.tmorris.net/controlling-effects-with-flatmap/
18:34	Raynes	cemerick: Wicca in particular is interesting because it gets called out as an 'invented' religion simply because it was invented in recent memory.
18:34	bbloom	scala is like java++
18:35	yogthos	lol
18:35	cemerick	Raynes: Indeed.
18:35	bbloom	if you prefer C++ over C, you'd prefer Scala over Java
18:35	bbloom	it's that simple
18:35	Raynes	So simple a callen could do it.
18:35	bbloom	indeed.
18:36	callen	cemerick: you just got a 5-star review on Amazon. Merry Christmas :)
18:36	callen	Raynes: do ho ho.
18:37	callen	"so simple a callen could do it", this should be the litmus test for library usability.
18:37	cemerick	callen: dude, you're a mensch :-)
18:37	bbloom	cemerick: how was the book authoring experience?
18:37	cemerick	bbloom: do you have four hours to talk? ;-)
18:38	cemerick	I'm going to publish a retrospective on the whole thing sometime Q1
18:38	bbloom	cemerick: heh, actually yeah. i've been considering forcing myself to write a blog post a week and eventually compile it into a book
18:38	callen	bbloom: leanpub is popular for that sort of thing
18:38	cemerick	Definitely a smart approach.
18:38	callen	bbloom: if you do your blog posts in Markdown, you can directly port it.
18:38	cemerick	f'n Markdown.
18:38	yogthos	hehe
18:38	callen	I'm not a fan myself (prefer org mode), but it's popular.
18:38	yogthos	no two flavors are alike :P
18:38	yogthos	no love for latex?
18:38	callen	yogthos: mostly because the fool that created it declared himself BDFL and then sat on it.
18:39	the-kenny	org-mode -> LaTeX ftw.
18:39	callen	yogthos: what the-kenny said.
18:39	callen	LaTeX is a compile targer
18:39	callen	target
18:39	callen	not an end-user lang.
18:39	yogthos	it's not that bad :)
18:39	bbloom	callen: i do my posts in blogger's stupid editor thinggie, which royally sucks for code, but i just haven't gotten around to configuring a static page generator in a non-useless fashion
18:39	the-kenny	(Like Java </duck>)
18:39	cemerick	bbloom: if you'll be at clojurewest, we can chat about publishing/authorship at length
18:39	callen	I did all of our due-diligence documentation via org-mode -> LaTeX -> PDF generated documents.
18:39	callen	bbloom: plenty of SSGs in Clojure yo.
18:40	callen	cemerick: I take it you're not one of those people who think it's a total waste of time?
18:41	bbloom	cemerick: might make it there, otherwise i'll be in NY, so (just github stalked you) i may find an excuse to road trip up to boston/ma/whatever
18:41	callen	patio11 has been rather loud about his dismissal of writing books. He's gotten rather obsessed with economic extraction.
18:41	bbloom	i'm much more interested in the clout for hiring for my next company
18:42	callen	bbloom: next? you going to do a startup?
18:42	cemerick	callen: No, writing is never a total waste of time
18:43	bbloom	callen: did one, going to do another
18:43	callen	wtf amazon. I searched for "laptop stand" and got "Fifty Shades of Grey"
18:43	cemerick	bbloom: are you in NYC now?
18:43	bbloom	cemerick: moving jan 29
18:43	callen	cemerick: I agree with you and see the value on several fronts, but some people are hellbent on reducing everything to direct and immediate compensatory value.
18:43	cemerick	callen: that's called "anticipating future purchasing intent"
18:44	callen	from laptop stand? sigh.
18:44	callen	cemerick: I think it did this because I bought Christmas gifts for women.
18:44	cemerick	bbloom: ping me and we'll catch lunch or something. I'll be making my way to NYC semi-regularly next year.
18:44	bbloom	cemerick: definitely going to take you up on that
18:45	cemerick	I'll bug you about business/startup stuff in exchange. :-P
18:45	bbloom	cemerick: my pleasure. 2 years and a small exit yields lots of good stories :-)
18:45	cemerick	callen: yeah, the consulting biz optimization stuff that landed on his podcast recently was weird
18:46	callen	cemerick: tbqh, ever since he stopped caring about bingo card and appointment reminder, he seems like he's gone off the deep end
18:46	cemerick	oh, I think he'll end up scaling AR quite a way
18:47	callen	cemerick: he's not really about optimizing revenue in the context of doing your own thing anymore, it seems mostly like "quickest maximum economic extraction, damn all other things" now.
18:47	callen	I mean, I keep hearing that, but AR is so neglected that I've considered running a competitor to it just to spur him on.
18:47	callen	AFAIK, he's been doing consulting full-time for years now.
18:48	cemerick	shrug
18:48	cemerick	he's clearly got quite a profitable shtick.
18:49	callen	no doubt, but the original reason I was interested in him is that he inspired me to try bootstrapping again
18:49	callen	he's since departed from that quite a bit, so I'm a bit alienated from his current priorities, even if I value his knowledge.
18:51	callen	yogthos: well, at least you're finally here now. You're the most active person on r/clojure, I was really surprised you weren't on here.
18:52	ivan	patio11: you were cool before you started raking in the big bucks
18:54	callen	ivan: it's not about wearing the hair shirt, it's about freedom.
18:55	yogthos	so uh hi all :P
18:57	callen	yogthos has been shepherding the Reddit Clojure community, he made a template/pico-framework for Ring designed to enable people to get started more quickly as well.
18:57	callen	I'm fiddling with it as we speak, although I'm about to go buying ingredients for dinner.
18:57	weavejester	Ho yogthos
18:57	weavejester	Or Hi even
18:57	yogthos	howdy
18:58	callen	yogthos: what part of the world are you in? I'm in the bay area.
18:58	Raynes	Life would be better if people would just use weavejester libraries.
18:58	callen	Raynes: it does.
18:58	callen	Raynes: it uses Compojure
18:58	callen	or I thought it did, wait a tick
18:58	callen	yes it does.
18:58	yogthos	yeah, I'm taking the approach of a nice default template with a lib and helpers
18:58	callen	yogthos: the lib-luminus includes compojure doesn't it?
18:59	yogthos	yup
18:59	callen	that was confusing.
18:59	callen	haha
18:59	Raynes	I entirely disagree with the reason luminus needs to exist.
18:59	Raynes	IT'S SO NOT HARD
18:59	yogthos	for us
18:59	yogthos	I'm introducing clojure at work
18:59	yogthos	people have trouble with the stupidest things
19:00	Raynes	:p
19:00	yogthos	it's kind of hard to look back once you learn something and remember what it's like on the other side :)
19:00	callen	Raynes: we're the revolutionary vanguard, we know what the noobies need. Do not spite the educators!
19:00	Raynes	yogthos: Why do you have lib-luminus?
19:00	callen	I'm musing on that too.
19:00	yogthos	helper utils mainly
19:00	Raynes	Yeah, lib-noir. :p
19:00	yogthos	I could merge with that
19:00	yogthos	would make sense
19:00	Raynes	You've added another library to the mix when you could have just added this stuff to lib noir. You're not helping!
19:00	Raynes	:p
19:00	yogthos	lol
19:00	callen	Raynes: don't be mean! It's Christmas.
19:01	callen	or it will be, tomorrow.
19:01	yogthos	I'm totally cool to add the stuff to lib-noir makes it easier :)
19:01	yogthos	I wouldn't mind taking it over either if you get bored with it :P
19:01	callen	just let him go further down the rabbit-hole with Laser
19:01	Raynes	You just want to add that weird redirect macro.
19:01	yogthos	but for now I just wanted to get something out of the door
19:02	yogthos	well right now context is borked on app servers :)
19:02	callen	yogthos: you should fix the FIXME in the description for lib-luminus.
19:02	callen	aha, that's where compojure and hiccup are coming from.
19:03	Raynes	yogthos: Yeah, pretty much all of this stuff would be fine in lib-noir if you sent me a pull request. Leave out the markdown-clj stuff. I'd rather use pegdown for that. You can add it, just do it like refheap does it.
19:03	yogthos	yeah sure thing, I can move it to the template
19:03	Raynes	yogthos: Also, I'm really just kidding with the mean stuff. I think the template is a good idea. I would definitely rather move this utility stuff into lib-noir though.
19:04	yogthos	haha no prob dude :)
19:04	ibdknox	Raynes is mean
19:04	ibdknox	He berates me constantly
19:04	ibdknox	and I cry.
19:04	yogthos	lol
19:04	Raynes	And I'll play with the redirect stuff too, because I now feel bad about not paying much attention to your pull request.
19:04	yogthos	hi Chris :)
19:04	callen	I agree, merging the utility/middleware code into lib-noir and then anything objectionable into the template makes a lot of sense to me.
19:04	ibdknox	I end up taking it out on cemerick
19:04	the-kenny	Everyone here is totally mean!
19:04	the-kenny	(especially Raynes)
19:04	yogthos	wahh
19:04	callen	the-kenny: I'm mean too, just ask me about generating HTML.
19:04	ibdknox	IT'S A TRAP
19:04	the-kenny	callen: How would you generate html?
19:04	yogthos	that's one of those shed painting questions :P
19:05	the-kenny	I'd use some XML stuff for it
19:05	Raynes	yogthos: If you get around to sending me a pull request to merge lib-luminus, I'll get it done quickly. I promise this time. :)
19:05	ibdknox	yogthos: hi :)
19:05	yogthos	ok I'll get on that
19:06	callen	yogthos: I'll re-critique/re-build the app under lib-noir + template when you give me the heads up that the merge is done.
19:07	Raynes	ibdknox: http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/15cspw/luminus_my_attempt_at_a_clojure_web_framework/c7lhuf8
19:07	ibdknox	huh
19:07	ibdknox	I think people are looking at the Noir thing wrong
19:08	ibdknox	disregarding that, I've been very upfront with korma
19:08	bbloom	i'm starting to have a thing that looks like AngularJS, Clojure, and WPF had a weird 3 headed baby.... i kinda like it... hopefully i can get it to a production quality before i need to go back to doing real work again :-)
19:08	ibdknox	it's not my fault that no one seems to care enough to keep it moving forward
19:08	callen	ibdknox: what is the status with Korma anyway?
19:08	callen	are people just using the Clojure JDBC wrappers?
19:08	yogthos	yeah with 700 stars I was surprised nobody picked it up
19:08	ibdknox	tons of people are using Korma
19:09	Raynes	ibdknox: People are thinking we just abandoned it. I think I was fairly clear in stating that I just didn't see the point in keeping it going when Compojure and lib-noir became such a good solution.
19:09	callen	ibdknox: so you're waiting for a maintainer?
19:09	ibdknox	callen: yep, called for one several times now, have had about 4 people step up, but no one actually did
19:09	ibdknox	Raynes: yeah - that's the thing. I don't think Noir is the best solution anymore
19:09	callen	that is unfortunate.
19:10	yogthos	yeah I think compojure+lib-noir is pretty smooth sailing, all that's really missing is a nice template, hence luminus
19:10	ibdknox	Korma needs work, but it would ridiculous to expect me to do it at this point - not even because of LT, but because I'm not doing any SQL work at all
19:10	yogthos	make some sane defaults that run out of the box, and then people can rip out change what they need
19:10	callen	I've had too much yak-shaving occur because of the absence of a quick-start template, hence Luminus.
19:10	ibdknox	I can only stretch my charity so far :/
19:11	callen	funny part is, I was talking in this channel about making a template right before Yogthos announced Luminus.
19:11	Raynes	ibdknox: My highly edited response: http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/15cspw/luminus_my_attempt_at_a_clojure_web_framework/c7lou6q
19:11	callen	ibdknox: I take it LightTable is eating you alive?
19:11	yogthos	btw nice work on that ;)
19:11	yogthos	I'm really enjoying seeing how the releases are progressing
19:12	ibdknox	callen: one guy building an IDE is a bit of a challenge ;)
19:12	weavejester	Hm, Stuart Sierra's data.dependency library doesn't seem to be on Maven or Clojars
19:12	Raynes	ibdknox: People always get that entitlement feeling when they start using things in production. I really don't believe in using anything free that I wouldn't be willing to replace or maintain myself if I had to.
19:12	ibdknox	VS has 2000 people in total lol
19:12	callen	ibdknox: aye, I don't doubt it @ IDE
19:12	ibdknox	yogthos: some really neat stuff coming soon I think :)
19:12	callen	Visual Studio has a distinct lack of focus.
19:12	ibdknox	yes it does
19:13	bbloom	ibdknox: i'm sure it's fun to say "i'm doing the work of 2000 people" but you damn well know that 1500 of those people are doing negative work :-)
19:13	callen	ibdknox: just wondering, how much thought will you be giving to web dev workflows in LightTable? So far it's great for testing groups of functions (for me).
19:13	weavejester	Oh, looks like it's part of tools.namespace - it was never released separately
19:13	ibdknox	bbloom: haha, it's more a matter of creating a sense of scale
19:14	ibdknox	bbloom: one of my favorite questions was always to ask how big in LoC VS is
19:14	bbloom	ibdknox: did you ever plot a histogram of responses to that? :-)
19:14	ibdknox	callen: I think that's one of the places it can shine
19:14	ibdknox	bbloom: hah, I should've. The answers were hilarious
19:15	bbloom	ibdknox: probably would have needed to be a logorithmic scale
19:15	ibdknox	bbloom: maybe 100kloc? no, probably like 500k
19:15	bbloom	lol.
19:15	ibdknox	it's funny how little we know about our own industry
19:15	ibdknox	100kloc is quite a bit for a website
19:15	ibdknox	but that doesn't even given you the VS editor
19:16	bbloom	do be fair, like 92% of those lines are QueryInterface :-P
19:16	zilti	bbloom: Let me know the result
19:16	ibdknox	bbloom: COM is evil
19:16	ibdknox	the editor was entirely managed though
19:16	bbloom	zilti: 1,410,764 ignoring blanks and comments
19:16	ibdknox	and it was still something on the order of half a million
19:17	ibdknox	it's an interesting exercising forcing LT to remain small such that I can still continue to work on it
19:17	zilti	bbloom: For Emacs? Wow. Is that the "raw" version, or the one including things like org-mode?
19:17	ibdknox	exercise*
19:17	bbloom	zilti: git://git.savannah.gnu.org/emacs.git
19:18	bbloom	ibdknox: what size is LT now?
19:18	ibdknox	< 5k
19:18	bbloom	ibdknox: nice.
19:18	ibdknox	with the refactor I'm doing right now, it'll get smaller actually
19:18	bbloom	`cloc textmate` yields: 142,405
19:19	bbloom	probably would be most fair to compare single-language support tho
19:19	zilti	That's a damn lot for a "simple text editor"with extension interfaec
19:19	bbloom	simple != smal
19:19	bbloom	l
19:19	ibdknox	there is no such thing as a simple text edtiro
19:19	ibdknox	editor*
19:19	bbloom	zilti: sometimes, simple is bigger, since you're not packing complex multi-purpose semantics into single lines
19:20	zilti	ibdknox: Notepad
19:20	yogthos	speaking of text editing, is there any plans for paredit style stuff? :)
19:20	bbloom	i consider redis to be simple, but cloc says 90,214
19:20	bbloom	zilti: notepad is a lot more complex than you'd think
19:20	callen	Notepad isn't as simple as you think
19:20	bbloom	notepad cheats a bit by leveraging window's textbox control
19:20	ibdknox	notepad is actually pretty impressive
19:20	bbloom	you ever try to create a text box control? heh.
19:21	ibdknox	the amount of work that went into virtualizing large files was crazy
19:21	bbloom	ibdknox: in notepad or lighttable?
19:21	zilti	I never did Windows programming. But I've some experience with plain Swing programming.
19:21	ibdknox	notepad
19:21	bbloom	ibdknox: when did it get that feature? vista? lol
19:21	ibdknox	I think so
19:22	ibdknox	I'm punting on the stupidly large files thing for now
19:22	bbloom	how's LT's large file support? ;-)
19:22	bbloom	heh
19:22	ibdknox	lol
19:22	bbloom	poorly. got it!
19:22	ibdknox	not worth it
19:22	ibdknox	want to open a 1gb file?
19:22	ibdknox	do it somewhere else :p
19:22	bbloom	vim is this way --->
19:22	bbloom	reasonable decision
19:22	ibdknox	the only thing that are actually that large are logs anyways
19:23	bbloom	ibdknox: generated sources too
19:23	ibdknox	and there are likely better solutions there
19:23	ibdknox	they get up to > 10mb?
19:23	yogthos	well if you have large files with clojure it's already gone off the rails :P
19:23	bbloom	(spit "myapp.edn" output-of-cljs-analyzer)
19:23	ibdknox	ah
19:23	bbloom	ibdknox: just be careful that you don't offer any plugin apis that let people write stupidly slow whole-file processing
19:24	bbloom	"pit of success" and all that: the APIs should encourage line-scan relative processing
19:24	bbloom	i know you're already service-izing and async-ifying everything
19:24	bbloom	++ for that
19:24	ibdknox	and asynchrony
19:24	ibdknox	yeah
19:24	bbloom	it's one of the major disadvantages of clj forms vs something like a line oriented protocol
19:24	Rich_Morin	I don't see a way to step to the next problem in 4clojure; am I missing something?
19:25	ibdknox	I haven't gotten to the point where I'm ready to craft those APIs yet
19:25	bbloom	a line oriented protocol is kinda inherently scan friendly
19:25	bbloom	aim for something reducer-esque :-)
19:25	Rich_Morin	nm
19:26	bbloom	Rich_Morin: we all assumed you'd find it :-P
19:26	dnolen	core.logic constraint stuff just got considerably more reliable
19:26	dnolen	gfredericks: your issue should be fixed now along with many, many others
19:26	callen	dnolen: as opposed to what?
19:27	ibdknox	callen: dnolen just recreated the universe as a logic problem, no big deal
19:27	dnolen	callen: not really being reliable - particularly when mixing together the various contrainst available to you.
19:27	dnolen	constraints
19:27	bbloom	ibdknox: i mean, doesn't E=MC^2 imply that that it's a finite domain? dnolen should have zero trouble with that
19:28	ibdknox	haha
19:28	dnolen	hehe
19:28	ibdknox	dnolen: you rock.
19:36	dnolen	and it seems faster too - tho I didn't really work that much on that.
19:55	Siphonblast	This is relatively off-topic, and I realize the ubiquity of such a question, but the dearth of Clojure docs puts it in a specific position: (of the few) what are some great Clojure books and/or comprehensive resources for learning Clojure? I am not the kind of person to glean deep understanding from documentation. ATM I am doing SICP, and while Scheme is much different, at least it introduces me to similar philosophies. Clojur
19:55	Siphonblast	e on the other hand is a bit more ambiguous with how to get to the level of solving very difficult 4clojure problems.
19:56	dnolen	Siphonblast: O'Reilly book is good
19:57	bbloom	i think rich's talks are also great insight into the clojure mindset
19:57	bbloom	~infoq
19:57	clojurebot	infoq is http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey
20:01	Baughn	Um, how do I inject some arbitrary .jar in the leiningen classpath?
20:02	zilti	Baughn: Leiningen does not want you to do that at all, unfortunately.
20:02	Baughn	I need to do so anyway. :/
20:02	zilti	Baughn: You might want to use this plugin: https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo
20:06	Baughn	zilti: Gives me mostly nullpointerexceptions.
20:08	zilti	Baughn: It works fine here. The only downside is that lein searches all online repos for the jar you put in your localrepo before using it, which takes a few seconds.
20:10	Baughn	zilti: What version are you using?
20:11	zilti	Baughn: [lein-localrepo "0.4.1"]
20:11	Baughn	Right. Maybe 0.3.0 is too old..
20:11	Baughn	It's the one there was installation instructions for, though. :X
20:11	bbloom	dnolen: is that a good example of using core.logic to linearize a dependency graph?
20:11	bbloom	s/that/there
20:12	dnolen	bbloom: not that I'm aware of
20:13	bbloom	dnolen: should just be a simple matter of unifying a vector where (relative-order left right) ?
20:13	Baughn	zilti: I mean, https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo just says to add a line to profiles.clj
20:13	Baughn	zilti: But that doesn't seem to /do/ anything
20:13	Baughn	Do I need to manually install it, as well? How?
20:13	zilti	Baughn: Did you add it to the correct profiles.clj?
20:13	bbloom	i'll git it a crack
20:13	bbloom	give* man i can't type today
20:13	zilti	No need for a manual install
20:14	Baughn	zilti: ~/.lein/profiles.clj, sure
20:14	zilti	Baughn: So it looks like that at you:
20:14	zilti	{:user {:plugins [[lein-localrepo "0.4.1"]]}}
20:15	Baughn	Yes. I copied and pasted from the readme.
20:15	zilti	Then do a "lein deps"
20:15	zilti	And then you should be able to use "lein localrepo"
20:15	Baughn	Nope
20:15	Baughn	$ lein localrepo
20:15	Baughn	That's not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks.
20:16	zilti	And you are using leiningen 2, right?
20:17	Baughn	Looks like 1.7.1
20:17	Baughn	..yeah, that'd do it.
20:17	zilti	Baughn: Then you'd have to "lein plugin install lein-localrepo "0.3""
20:18	Baughn	That's what I tried first, actually. That's the one that gives me nullpointerexceptions.
20:18	zilti	Strange.
20:18	zilti	But you should consider upgrading to leiningen 2
20:19	Baughn	Doing that now. Too bad the package manager's version is so old.
20:20	bbloom	dnolen: it occurs to me that i can do this trivially for a particular graph, but i have no idea how to generate a core.logic program from an input graph
20:22	Baughn	zilti: Did that, localrepo install now works, :dependencies on the .jar does /not/
20:23	zilti	Baughn: No, you are doing it wrong. You have to do a
20:23	zilti	lein localrepo install <filename> <[groupId/]artifactId> <version>
20:23	Baughn	Yup, did that.
20:23	zilti	And then add [groupId/artifactId "version"] to your project.clj
20:23	Baughn	Did that, too
20:23	dnolen	bbloom: it's tricky business I'll say that much :)
20:23	zilti	And then lein deps
20:24	Baughn	Did that. No good
20:24	bbloom	dnolen: the obvious answer is a macro, but that just feels dirty :-P
20:24	zilti	Baughn: What does it say now?
20:24	dnolen	bbloom: I keep telling people I usually cheat. I read a Prolog answer and port it.
20:24	Baughn	zilti: ould not find artifact net.minecraft:minecraft:pom:1.4.6 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)
20:24	Baughn	+C
20:24	Baughn	And another one for clojars
20:25	bbloom	dnolen: heh. ok well i basically just want to take a graph and generate a bunch of beforeo forms
20:25	zilti	Baughn: It says that because it can't find them online, but it has it locally, so that should work fine now. You get those "could not find" messages for every dependency you add.
20:26	bbloom	dnolen: kinda wish there was some and/or tree i could return and pass to the solver :-)
20:26	Baughn	zilti: Oh, right.. this .jar is the obfuscated one. >_>
20:28	dnolen	bbloom: pro-tip, Ask a Prolog question on StackOverflow and hope that noone thinks it's a homework question.
20:28	bbloom	dnolen: lol
20:28	dnolen	Prolog answers on SO are always really good.
20:28	zilti	I try using deftest in a midje test file, but it keeps telling me that deftest doesn't exist. Is that in another namespace than midje.sweet, or is the documentation outdated?
20:29	dnolen	bbloom: seriously, if you find a Prolog solution - porting it usually is trivial.
20:29	dnolen	at least in my experience.
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: i think my real question is: how do i treat logic predicates as data? ie how can i generate predicates and then how do i run the generated program?
20:33	dnolen	bbloom: I gotta run, I need to more concrete description of what you'd like to do
20:33	xeqi	Bahman_: localrepo adds the jar, but not a pom; those messages are lein checking for the pom on a server;
20:33	xeqi	bah
20:33	xeqi	Baughn: ^
20:34	xeqi	you can add a fake .pom based on http://maven.apache.org/guides/introduction/introduction-to-the-pom.html#Minimal_POM to your ~/.m2 to get rid of them
20:39	clj-newb-234	is there a builtin for (fn [v k v] (set! v (assoc v k v))) ?
20:39	clj-newb-234	is there a builtin for (fn [v k va] (set! v (assoc v k va))) ?
20:39	clj-newb-234	where v = a var, k = a key, va = a value
20:40	zilti	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/assoc
20:41	clj-newb-234	??
20:41	lazybot	clj-newb-234: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
20:41	clj-newb-234	how does the doc to assoc solve the above?
20:41	clj-newb-234	I want to update a var ...
20:44	zilti	clj-newb-234: You wrote if there's a built-in for collection/key/value.
20:45	clj-newb-234	assoc is not equiv to the fn defined above
20:46	zilti	Think over it twice if you really need a var.
20:48	clj-newb-234	well, i've gone ahead and thought it over 3 times
20:48	clj-newb-234	it's technically not a var, but a dynamic binding, i.e. (binding [blah ...])
20:48	clj-newb-234	I should have been clearer
20:49	zilti	Definitely, and your fn up there doesn't compile.
20:51	clj-newb-234	intresting
20:51	clj-newb-234	so basically, this would have to be amcro
20:51	clj-newb-234	oh boy, i'm using binding, set!, and macros
20:51	clj-newb-234	perhapss I should rethink this through
20:52	xeqi	clj-newb-234: you don't need a macro for that
20:52	clj-newb-234	I need a way to also involve transients and jni
20:52	clj-newb-234	xeqi: enlighten me:
20:52	clj-newb-234	(defn update-binding! [b k v] (set! b (assoc b k v))
20:52	clj-newb-234	is not allowed as a func, ... thus my next idea is a macro
20:52	clj-newb-234	how can I do that without using a macro?
20:53	bawr	Is it just me, or is readline broken for lein repl under cygwin?
20:54	clj-newb-234	this christmas, I'm thankful I no longer have been cygwin free for half a decade
20:55	xeqi	blah, I was thinking atom, not var, sorry
21:02	azkesz	hey guys, is there a way to write asm win32 code from clojure ?
21:04	azkesz	maybe I didn't phrase that right, I'm wondring if there's some kind of asm compiler that uses clojure code inside the asm for macros for example
21:04	yogthos	I don't think such an animal exists ;)
21:05	azkesz	I'm currently checking this http://blog.danieljanus.pl/blog/2012/05/14/lithium/
21:05	yogthos	nifty
21:06	yogthos	github hasn't been updated for a while
21:07	azkesz	7-8 months
21:07	azkesz	yeah but that's seems to be what I was looking for, seeing the example
21:07	yogthos	ah
21:08	yogthos	heh would probably be a lot easier to implement for arm :)
21:08	azkesz	you know like something like that: https://github.com/nathell/lithium/blob/master/examples/stripes.li.clj
21:08	yogthos	the intel instruction set is massive
21:08	azkesz	to write asm in clojure like way
21:09	yogthos	looks pretty similar to the regular way :)
21:09	azkesz	yeah lol but I kinda need the power to use macros
21:10	yogthos	yeah I can see fun assembly hacking with macros ;)
21:14	azkesz	now I'm thinking maybe I just needed some way to write assembler in clojure such that when ran it will generate a "real" (masm) .asm file, so it would just act like a neat macro machine.
21:15	azkesz	wonder if that's what you'd ccall a preprocessor
21:30	yogthos	heh maybe you can grab a list of opcodes and generate the preprocessor that way
21:32	azkesz	naah without that, I meant simply convert what i write into masm .asm format, and let masm do the asm to bytecode; but you're right lithium does asm to bytecode directly; but I'm having second thoughts about doing any asm anymore, I initially wanted a small .exe file to apply a patch
21:32	bawr	technomancy: I have a small patch to lein.sh that makes repl work under Cygwin. How do I go about sending it somewhere? :)
21:32	azkesz	pull request on github
21:33	azkesz	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
21:41	bawr	Welp, I was hoping for a simple patch. But erh, was going to dig up my github, anyway.
21:52	clj-newb-234_	what are good examples of code bases < 10K LOC worth reading (in clojure)
21:52	clj-newb-234_	I actually don't care what it does, as long as it's idiomatic clojure code and does something cool
21:52	clj-newb-234_	bonus points if it relates to Databases and distributed ystems
22:17	bbloom	clj-newb-234: not sure how idiomatic they are, but nathanmarz has some cool distributed systems and database projects
22:18	bbloom	clj-newb-234: https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm & https://github.com/nathanmarz/elephantdb for example
22:18	bbloom	peeking at the code, it seems relatively sane
22:18	bbloom	although he's pretty aggressive about supporting java clients too, which can add complexity
22:19	bbloom	also, a bit messy, but extremely enlightening: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
22:21	xeqi	I like the https://github.com/weavejester/compojure source, decent intro to the ideas at http://www.booleanknot.com/blog/2012/09/18/routing-in-compojure.html
22:27	arrdem	technomancy: yeah I'm now lost in emacs... live via erc
22:55	muhoo	trying to download slides for this, and it's hanging on chrome CM9 http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Reducers . i am logged in.
22:55	muhoo	is it just me?
22:57	muhoo	well, i don't expect anyone here to FIX it, but it'd be nice if someone could confirm "it works for me"
22:58	muhoo	because, if it doesn't work for others besides me, then i will contact infoq. but in the meantime, my setup is odd enough that it could be pilot error on my part.
23:01	gfredericks	is it normal for `lein repl` to involve 20 or 30 OS processes?
23:17	theatticlight	`lein repl` should only involve 2 OS processes.
23:26	Raynes	technomancy: Me no can contact Heroku? And refheap is down?
23:27	Raynes	Looks like the ssl endpoint is broken.
23:27	Raynes	Just FYI to everyone, refheap is down, do not panic.
23:30	alex_baranosky	I'm trying to think of a nice way to do this: I want to drop the ns form from a file, and keep the rest of the file contents (unmolested/unreformatted) and then put a new ns-form in place of the old … The way I was trying was to use `read` with a PushbackReader, read the first form, and then read the rest of the file. The problem with this approach is that the namespace ends up getting reformatted, which I'd like to avoi
23:30	alex_baranosky	I mean to say the body of the namespace gets reformatted.
23:32	alex_baranosky	Raynes: I've been using ref heap a lot for sharing code snippets between machines/devs at work
23:32	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Yey! Sorry for downtime. :(
23:32	alex_baranosky	Raynes: it is a lot nicer than having Skype mangle it
23:32	Raynes	Luckily the only time refheap has ever went down is when Heroku goes down.
23:32	Raynes	And the only time Heroku has issues is usually when AWS is having issues.
23:33	Raynes	So all bad things in the universe can be directly linked back to Amazon.
23:33	muhoo	QED
23:35	muhoo	all the ops are probably drinking egg nogg or whatever.
23:35	alex_baranosky	muhoo, what a great idea
23:36	muhoo	tho i'd bet technomancy is probably putting presents under tree for his kids, right about now, etc.
23:38	muhoo	maybe amazon downage is why i can't get infoq to hand me pdfs of rich's slides
23:48	alex_baranosky	no one has any ideas on a good way to replace just the ns form of a namespace?
23:53	Sgeo	Can Heroku be used to run web stuff from arbitrary languages?
23:54	arrdem	Sgeo: in theory...
23:55	arrdem	if you wanted to do some non-standard server I suppose you could include it in your repo and change their run command to launch it so long as it conforms to their $PORT var