#clojure – 2012-12-26

2012-12-26

00:27	Raynes	Here #clojure, have some markdown https://github.com/Raynes/cegdown
00:28	Frozenlock	Even if I prefer org-mode, I thank you for this :)
00:28	Raynes	technomancy: Christmas is the time for miracles and miraculous libraries.
00:28	philr	"You can use the with to-html" s/the/them/
00:28	technomancy	Raynes: I was basically about to say that in my announcement tweet.
00:28	Raynes	philr: Fixed.
00:29	philr	pedants can sleep easy once more.
00:29	technomancy	Raynes: now that you maintain an .md library may we look forward to future rants about how horrible the state of markdown is?
00:30	Raynes	technomancy: It is a pretty thin wrapper. I don't have the right to rant.
00:30	Raynes	But for your sake, I agree with you on every point.
00:31	technomancy	completely bats
00:34	bbloom	,()
00:34	clojurebot	()
00:34	bbloom	wow. i find that surprising....
00:34	bbloom	i'd have expected an error, but i guess () wouldn't possibly mean anything else but an empty list
00:34	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/slamhound <- it's out; 1.3.0 doesn't suck for :require :as and will not tell you to use :use
00:34	technomancy	thanks primarily to alex baranosky
00:34	Raynes	technomancy: That sentence could have been worded so much better.
00:35	Raynes	technomancy: "it's out; 1.3.0 doesn't suck for :require :as and will tell you not to :use"
00:35	Raynes	Like drugs. Get it?
00:35	Raynes	technomancy: So what is slamhound useful again?
00:35	technomancy	Raynes: I live in Washington; things are different here.
00:35	Raynes	useful for*
00:35	Raynes	I can't envision a usage right this second.
00:36	technomancy	Raynes: it will clear all the leftover crud out of your ns forms that has accumulated over time
00:36	technomancy	plus it'll organize/alphabetize them
00:36	Raynes	I have a dream of integrating tools like this and kibit (or whatever) with refheap.
00:36	Raynes	That does sound cool.
00:36	technomancy	and pprint
00:36	Raynes	Wouldn't it be cool to have a "slamhound" button on refheap that gave you a namespace form from your pasted code?
00:36	Raynes	Would you like this? Because I can make this happen.
00:37	technomancy	weeeeell
00:37	technomancy	it's basically impossible to sandbox
00:37	technomancy	because it's all just compile over and over
00:37	Raynes	Oh, it actually runs code?
00:37	technomancy	ayup
00:37	Raynes	Yuck
00:37	Raynes	I mean, i get why
00:37	Raynes	But yuck for me.
00:37	technomancy	yeah
00:37	technomancy	oh, but also you can use it for other coolness
00:37	Raynes	Oh well, was a fun idea.
00:38	technomancy	if you want to start using a var but you can't be arsed to look up what the ns is and add it to your :require clause, you can just run slamhound on it, and it'll do it for you
00:38	technomancy	liek magicks
00:38	Raynes	Haha
00:38	Raynes	Nice
00:39	technomancy	although slamhound.el still uses slime; dang.
00:39	technomancy	needs a refresh
00:39	technomancy	still, it's rad
00:39	Raynes	Rad.
00:39	Raynes	You're old.
00:41	Raynes	Frozenlock: Sorry man, but I ain't doing corg-mode.
00:41	Raynes	I wonder how many repos I have now.
00:42	Raynes	Nice, I guess they don't give you an easy way to count them now.
00:42	Raynes	To the tentaclemobile!
00:44	Raynes	85
00:44	Raynes	Not bad.
00:44	Raynes	I wonder if that translates to epeen inches.
00:46	Raynes	technomancy: You have 145 public repositories.
00:46	Raynes	I just thought you should know.
00:47	Raynes	technomancy: Didn't amalloy_ have some kind of github epeenometer somewhere?
00:48	technomancy	Raynes: yeah but it only measures when you joined =)
00:48	Raynes	Aw.
00:48	technomancy	http://github-percentile.herokuapp.com
00:48	Raynes	amalloy_: Let's do a github epeenometer with number of repos.
00:48	technomancy	heh
00:49	Raynes	I'll provide the laser and the tentacles, you provide the web.
00:50	technomancy	it's been done a bunch of times
00:50	technomancy	though yours might distinguish itself by being honest about being an epeen-contest
01:06	Frozenlock	Cljs in cljs awoke an old desire of mine... something like emacs/konkeror in clojure. Is there such a thing yet?
01:07	Raynes	No.
01:16	Raynes	Okay guys. I've given you laser and cegdown. Now I need to play video games and whatnot. Merry Christmas.
03:29	callen	I've been reading the docs, feeling a little silly asking this, but how does one go about embedding a lein task/plugin in a project?
03:29	callen	like for running scripts.
03:58	dsantiago	callen: Are you trying to add a plugin to a project?
04:10	callen	dsantiago: sorrrta. I'm actually on to a different problem now.
04:11	callen	No suitable driver found for jdbc:postgresql://localhost/dbname when I try to run a migration.
04:11	callen	Been flipping around my database url and deps for a bit now.
04:11	callen	dsantiago: was I was thinking of is less of a proper plugin, and more of a way to run one-off scripts.
04:11	callen	what I*
04:11	callen	dsantiago: but that's far more tractable than this damnable JDBC URL thing I'm somehow futzing u.
04:11	dsantiago	Did you add the postgres jdbc jar to your deps?
04:12	callen	o' course, [postgresql/postgresql "9.1-901.jdbc4"]
04:12	callen	deps and dev-deps
04:12	dsantiago	Huh, I dunno on that one then.
04:12	callen	live is hell :(
04:12	callen	life*
04:12	callen	dsantiago: how have you been?
04:13	dsantiago	Good, good. Holidays.
04:14	callen	dsantiago: fantastic. I ended up coming to terms with Hiccup, using that until or unless somebody comes up with something better :)
04:15	dsantiago	I'm still working on it, I am. Had so much family in town this past week.
04:15	dsantiago	Haven't gotten anything done.
04:15	callen	I didna expect nuthin.
04:16	callen	that's why I went with Hiccup for now. There's no pressure or anything, I'm happy with it for now.
04:16	dsantiago	Good, good.
04:17	callen	dsantiago: I'm only getting away with it because frontend guy wants to learn ClojureScript anyway
04:17	callen	so I told him he'd be getting tossed off the dock into the lake and told to learn to swim.
04:19	dsantiago	Well, if he can handle JS coding, then surely he can write HTML in hiccup, I'd think.
04:20	callen	dsantiago: people are more persnickety about syntax and attached to familiarity than you might generally suspect.
04:20	callen	I for one, rather like Hiccup now simply because of how compact it is.
04:20	callen	dsantiago: you wouldn't happen to know how to reset the dependencies and force a re-download in a leiningen project would you?
04:21	callen	lein clean && lein deps doesn't seem to have done it.
04:21	callen	meh. nuked ~/.m2
04:21	callen	that kinda sucked though.
04:23	callen	no dice. jfc.
04:24	callen	how do I always have these errors?
04:24	Anderkent	callen what's the error you're getting?
04:27	callen	Anderkent: No suitable driver found for jdbc:postgresql://localhost/dbname when I try to run a migration.
04:27	callen	and yes, I have the postgres jdbc dep in my :deps
04:27	callen	and yes, I tried nuking my m2
04:28	callen	and yes, I'm getting to the point where I'm going to close my laptop and polish off that bottle of Russian vodka instead.
04:28	dsantiago	We might be at the point where you should paste some code and/or project.clj somewhere.
04:29	callen	oh yay, refheap is back up.
04:29	callen	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7861
04:30	callen	dsantiago: ^^
04:30	callen	dsantiago: nevermind...figured it out...
04:31	callen	dsantiago: let me know if you can detect from that paste what an utter pillock I am.
04:31	dsantiago	Well, you trying to splice the url in from getenv?
04:32	callen	dsantiago: that wasn't the problem and I tested that the getenv thing was working earlier.
04:32	callen	dsantiago: notice the profiles.clj? it runs in a different context than the project
04:32	callen	dsantiago: project has the jdbc dep...my ~/.lein/profiles.clj did not...
04:33	callen	this is how much the gods hate me.
04:33	dsantiago	Ah, OK.
04:33	callen	now to find out why it's not detecting my migration.
04:33	callen	dsantiago: right? see. SOY ESTUPIDO.
04:34	dsantiago	If only you were talking right this moment to the guy who advocated for the addition of profiles to lein, and tell him off.
04:36	callen	dsantiago: I'm bad at detecting sarcasm, I take it that was you?
04:37	callen	dsantiago: so uh, I'm cool with profiles. I mean it caused me some pain when I had to move from lein v1 to lein v2, but a big fat warning about how the context for the ~/.lein/profiles.clj vs. ./project.clj woulda been cool.
04:37	callen	dsantiago: try to have some mercy for the intellectual Tiny Tims of the world such as myself.
04:39	dsantiago	Heh, yeah, I overstate it a bit. I wrote the original profile support back in cake, but Phil did all the work in lein 2.
04:39	callen	dsantiago: either way, that was an unpleasant lesson with no clear GooglePath to wisdom. :P
04:40	callen	at least I had the brainwave myself
04:40	callen	Feel proud o' me self for that much.
04:42	callen	that lying son of a bitch
05:00	callen	pjstadig: you wouldn't happen to be 'round, wouldya?
05:36	callen	yogthos: how much experience do you have wrangling leiningen profiles, plugins and/or migratus?
05:44	callen	is anyone here using Migratus?
05:51	pjstadig	i am now
05:52	pjstadig	callen: ^
05:53	callen	pjstadig: I'm having a huge problem with migratus. I beg of you, please help me.
05:53	pjstadig	i shall try
05:53	callen	pjstadig: I've actually had a bit of a journey up to this point, but I'll tell you what's happening right now
05:53	callen	pjstadig: migratus doesn't seem to have my project's classpath when it runs, so it says it cannot find any migrations
05:53	callen	my migrations are under src/migrations
05:53	callen	with the appropriate filename
05:53	callen	I double-checked that it matches the exact regex and splitting code that migratus uses
05:54	callen	I injected classpath dumping code into the migratus jar to verify, it doesn't have my project's classpath at runtime.
05:54	callen	pjstadig: it tells me to go fly a kite here: https://github.com/pjstadig/migratus/blob/master/src/migratus/cli.clj#L40
05:54	pjstadig	how are you configuring migratus?
05:54	callen	boy lemme tell you.
05:55	callen	pjstadig: first question, are you using lein v2.0?
05:55	pjstadig	no
05:55	pjstadig	not yet
05:55	callen	then I am likely totally fucked
05:55	callen	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7863
05:55	callen	I've been using 2.0 for some time now, and it's been 100% loss of my time, no gain at all.
05:55	callen	sadly it's where things are going
05:55	callen	so I don't really have a choice.
05:56	bawr	Is it just me, or are all Clojure introduction / environment setup guides like a year old or more?
05:56	callen	bawr: yes
05:56	callen	2.0 broke a lot of stuff.
05:56	bawr	That's... suboptimal.
05:56	callen	pjstadig: I've been assuming so far that I need to see /Users/callen/code/garbwell/test:/Users/callen/code/garbwell/src in my classpath
05:56	callen	for it to see src/migrations
05:57	callen	if we assume that's correct, only my dependencies from my .m2/ are in my classpath when migratus is running.
05:57	callen	bawr: yes it is. I'll do a write-up if and when I can get all this shit working
05:57	pjstadig	callen: moving migratus to 2.0 means i have to split out the lein part into a separated plugin project, which i've wanted to do anyway
05:57	callen	bawr: until then my hair is falling out and I'm alternating between drinking vodka and gulping coffee
05:57	pjstadig	but i haven't worked it all out yet
05:57	callen	pjstadig: so it's totally broken?
05:57	callen	and I'm boned?
05:58	pjstadig	callen: you are correct that only our dependencies from your .m2 would be in your classpath when running
05:58	pjstadig	if you want src/migrations to be on the classpath, then you need to run your app from a jar
05:58	pjstadig	lein package first or something
05:58	callen	vut. then how does migratus work?
05:58	callen	`lein migratus migrate` should just work.
05:58	Anderkent	ls
05:58	lazybot	bin data dev home lost+found media opt sbin selinux src swap tmp usr
05:59	Anderkent	oups
05:59	callen	there's a Rails hacker laughing at me somewhere.
05:59	Anderkent	wrong window
05:59	pjstadig	callen: that works in your dev environment because generally src is on the classpath
05:59	callen	Anderkent: I'm still working on that problem btw.
05:59	callen	pjstadig: er, false, doesn't work in my dev environment.
05:59	Anderkent	sorry, I asked you about it then my laptop hung
05:59	Anderkent	and i rageleft to have breakfast
05:59	callen	Anderkent: I'm about to ragequit life.
05:59	Anderkent	so I didn't actually get your response or look at your problem :(
06:00	callen	pjstadig: I'm sitting here on my laptop, running it in my terminal on my thingy and it's "dev" insofar as the project running on my laptop locally is dev.
06:00	callen	pjstadig: and it's not working.
06:00	Anderkent	let me look at the logs
06:00	bawr	callen: looks like starting with the new leiningen at least makes one pull less hair
06:00	pjstadig	not deployed to production?
06:00	pjstadig	but in a git checkout on your machine?
06:00	callen	pjstadig: no, I'm just trying to use your library for the first time ever
06:00	callen	pjstadig: I added migratus as a dependency, I'm trying to run my first migration ever locally
06:00	callen	to a local postgres instance
06:01	callen	it's a little .sql file named in the way your system defines
06:01	bawr	callen: although I already had to patch it up to have sane repl (up/down arrows not working in Windows, switched to cygwin, and needed to patch lain even then).
06:01	callen	I just need the goddamn migrations directory to be on the classpath
06:01	callen	bawr: that's weird, nrepl has always been fine for me in that respect.
06:01	pjstadig	what is the exact path of the file you're trying to run as a migration?
06:01	Anderkent	callen: lein or mvn?
06:01	callen	bawr: my issues usually concern the classpath and the stuff 2.0 changed
06:01	callen	Anderkent: lein
06:01	callen	$ ls ./src/migrations/
06:01	callen	20121226014541-create-user-table.up.sql
06:02	callen	$ pwd
06:02	callen	/Users/callen/code/garbwell
06:02	callen	pjstadig: and don't tell me the file is mis-named, I checked it against your code with the regex personally.
06:02	callen	and I saw it gets split and destructured
06:02	callen	and that all worked fine
06:02	pjstadig	no the same looks right
06:02	pjstadig	s/same/name/
06:02	Anderkent	and if you do lein repl, go to the migrations namespace and try to open a resource called '2012....sql', does it give you null?
06:02	callen	Anderkent: the REPL has the right classpath
06:03	callen	Anderkent: I'd said that earlier
06:03	pjstadig	yeah so i think this is a lein 2.0 issue
06:03	Anderkent	sorry, wasn't here
06:03	callen	Anderkent: but when I dump the classpath in the migratus runtime it doesn't have it because it's a leiningen plugin that doesn't know about the project.
06:03	bawr	callen: if you get the newest lein and do "lein repl", do up and down arrows work on windows?
06:03	Anderkent	ah!
06:03	callen	pjstadig: I've established as much, I really just want to know how to fix it.
06:03	pjstadig	because when you are running `lein migratus migrate` it is using the plugin classpath, and your src dir is not on the class path
06:03	bawr	Could be some weird locale issue, I guess.
06:03	callen	bawr: I don't use windows
06:03	callen	bawr: sorry, might've misunderstood.
06:03	Anderkent	shouldn't the plugin do eval-in-project then?
06:03	bawr	Yeah, normally neither do I. :)
06:03	callen	what Anderkent said. how do I do eval-in-project?
06:04	pjstadig	callen: unless there's a way to get lein2 to add a specific directory to the classpath, then there's no way at the moment
06:04	pjstadig	migratus needs to be upgraded to work with lein2 and have its lein plugin split into a separate project
06:04	pjstadig	it's been on my todo, and i should probably just do it
06:04	callen	so I'm fucked until then.
06:05	pjstadig	let me check though, cause we just upgraded to lein2 at work and migratus is still working for us
06:05	callen	wat.
06:05	callen	how is it...
06:05	callen	Anderkent: I see eval-in-project. Seems to be what's needed. Not sure what's required to port migratus though.
06:06	pjstadig	callen: yeah, we just have migratus as a dependency in our dev and "normal" profiles
06:07	Anderkent	yeah, that seems too specific to this particular plugin that i've never used.
06:07	pjstadig	not in the plugin list
06:07	callen	pjstadig: I tried defining it in my profiles.clj, under :plugins, but it didn't work
06:07	callen	pjstadig: could you please explain?
06:07	Anderkent	are you tied to this migration library? I used drift without much issue
06:08	callen	Anderkent: it seemed lower friction than drift/ragtime/lobos
06:08	callen	in particular I wanted something I could use from the command line
06:08	Anderkent	drift has a lein plugin
06:08	callen	drift and ragtime, IIRC, are too generic
06:08	callen	and require that you define everything
06:08	callen	I really just wanted something to execute some SQL and let get back to work.
06:08	pjstadig	callen: something like this https://gist.github.com/4379615
06:09	pjstadig	Anderkent: drift requires you to use a DSL to describe migrations, which i specifically wanted to avoid with migratus
06:09	pjstadig	SQL is already a DSL
06:09	callen	what pjstadig said. I just wanted .sql files.
06:09	pjstadig	plus drift doesn't work with git
06:10	callen	pjstadig: I did that. 'migratus' is not a task.
06:10	pjstadig	it assumes a single global version for your database
06:11	Anderkent	I don't see how that claches with using git?
06:11	callen	Anderkent: try using feature branches sometime with an incrementing global version
06:11	callen	Anderkent: let me know how well that works for you.
06:11	callen	Anderkent: the workflow git encourages (non-linear) doesn't work with linear migration schema
06:11	pjstadig	if you have a git branch that has a migration named 15-something that gets merged after a branch that has a migration 17-something, then 15-something will never run
06:11	Anderkent	oh, I'd scratch and rebuild the database on dev when you switch branches
06:11	Anderkent	oh
06:11	Anderkent	use dates
06:11	Anderkent	:)
06:12	callen	that's kinda the point
06:12	callen	drift doesn't work like that.
06:12	callen	drift uses a global incrementing version
06:12	pjstadig	rails fixed this by using dates for migrations and allowing migrations to execute independently
06:12	Anderkent	no, drift allows you to use timestamp-based versioning
06:12	pjstadig	instead of assuming "17 has run...oh then i can ignore anything less than that"
06:12	callen	it doesn't run the migrations independentlly
06:13	callen	with or without timestamps
06:13	pjstadig	callen: what does your project.clj look like now?
06:13	callen	just because you change your global incrementing version to a timestamp doesn't change how it works
06:13	callen	pjstadig: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7864
06:13	callen	Anderkent: you have to have independent migrations for it to work.
06:13	Anderkent	I don't see the problem, yes you have to pay more attentnion when merging two branches that both did migrations, but you have to do it anyway with any migration framework...
06:14	Anderkent	what do you mean by independent migrations?
06:14	callen	pjstadig: what am I doing wrong?
06:14	pjstadig	callen: oh, you know what, we don't use the lein plugin at work, which is why we don't have this problem
06:14	callen	wat.
06:14	Anderkent	hah
06:15	callen	dfkohjosrjoighjogiorsethrdopjkgh AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
06:15	pjstadig	the dev classpath is separate from the plugin classpath so that's why you don't see the migratus task when you have migratus in the dev classpath
06:15	pjstadig	we have fixtures in our test suite that run the migrations for us
06:15	callen	I just want to run the migrations from the commandline.
06:15	callen	that's all I want.
06:15	pjstadig	and we don't generally need to run our app apart from the tests
06:15	Anderkent	you can try just making an alias for lein run -m leiningen.migratus
06:15	pjstadig	callen: yeah your screwed by lein2
06:16	Anderkent	oh nvm that wouldn't work
06:16	pjstadig	i'll take this as a vote to work out the lein2 upgrade more post hastily
06:16	callen	pjstadig: that would be nice, but I'm kinda fucked until then.
06:16	pjstadig	callen: you can't use lein1?
06:16	Ralt	hi
06:17	pjstadig	there's really no reason to upgrade except peer pressure
06:17	Ralt	what's the difference between + and +' ?
06:17	callen	pjstadig: I'm not downgrading my leiningen for a migrations library.
06:17	pjstadig	suit yourself :)
06:17	callen	cemerick: migrations library: go.
06:17	Anderkent	you can make a trivial plugin that just adds the migratus libraries to a projects runtime and then eval-in-project's the leiningen.migratus/migratus call
06:18	callen	nope. fuck it, running the SQL myself with psql
06:18	pjstadig	callen: you could actually install a lein1 executable and run them concurrently
06:18	callen	pjstadig: fuck that, I'm done.
06:18	Anderkent	callen: see https://github.com/JacekLach/cloverage/blob/master/cloverage-lein-plugin/src/leiningen/cloverage.clj
06:18	callen	I have work to do.
06:18	Anderkent	it's 9 lines :P
06:18	callen	this has sucked off the last like 3 fucking hours
06:18	callen	I'm done.
06:18	Anderkent	well, guess that's a solution as well
06:19	pjstadig	sorry it hasn't worked out for you
06:19	callen	pjstadig: so is my sanity.
06:20	pjstadig	it's too bad that the whole clojure community seems to think they need to move to lein2 before it's actually released
06:20	pjstadig	lein1 works perfectly well
06:20	callen	pjstadig: the project I'm working on is partly a proof of concept of me trying to demonstrate that Clojure can be a practical choice to some colleagues.
06:20	callen	pjstadig: this isn't helping.
06:20	pjstadig	haha
06:21	Anderkent	so, coming back to running migrations independently, do you assume all migrations are idempotent and can be ran in any order?
06:21	callen	does anyone here have any opinions for managing scripts in a Clojure/Leiningen project?
06:21	Anderkent	or do you sillently take any migrations with n > x down if you notice x wasn't ran, and then redo them?
06:22	callen	I'd like to not just start adding a bunch .sh files to my project with some semblance of structure
06:22	Anderkent	both of these look like asking for trouble to me
06:22	Ralt	where can I get the list of attribute maps?
06:23	cemerick_	callen: what are you trying to do?
06:23	Ralt	I'm trying to understand the difference between + and +', and I see the only difference is in the attribute maps. Specifically, the inline attribute not being the same. But I can't find anything about this attribute...
06:23	pjstadig	Anderkent: no there is a table in the database that keeps track of each migration that has run, instead of just a single integer that represents all migrations that have run
06:23	Anderkent	pjstadig: so if you have migrations 1 2 and 4 ran, and you see migration 3 was not ran, what do you do?
06:24	pjstadig	cemerick_: i suck, so he wants you to write a migration library
06:24	pjstadig	Anderkent: run 3
06:24	cemerick_	pjstadig: what, for RDBMS?
06:25	Anderkent	pjstadig: I don't think that's correct though, running 3 then 4 and running 4 then 3 might have different results...
06:25	pjstadig	cemerick_: yes
06:25	callen	cemerick_: yes
06:25	cemerick	gtfo
06:25	pjstadig	Anderkent: then don't do that
06:25	cemerick	:-P
06:25	callen	cemerick: hatred for RDBMS? 4rlz?
06:25	callen	cemerick: what should I use instead, MangoDB?
06:25	Anderkent	well that's my point, you always want to run migrations in a well defined order, so tracking which one was most recent is sufficient
06:25	cemerick	callen: no hatred, just no interest
06:26	pjstadig	Anderkent: if you want to merge git branches in unpredictable order, then you have to consider migrations independently
06:26	cemerick	I should have saved my gtfo for the mongo question.
06:26	Anderkent	if you add migrations in the 'middle', then you just have to roll back to state 0 and run all migrations
06:26	pjstadig	Anderkent: they always run in non-monotonically increasing order, but it only runs the migrations that are: on your branch, and haven't been run yet
06:27	Anderkent	obvlsy you don't want to ever push out something like that to production, but I suppose reordering migrations in dev is fine
06:27	pjstadig	regardless of what other migrations have run
06:28	cemerick	callen: I've enjoyed couch (Cloudant, actually). Nothing wrong with RDBMS (I've abused pg occasionally, and some things you just need to use oracle or teradata for), but they're often just a PITA.
06:28	cemerick	migrations being one aspect, of course
06:28	bawr	pjstadig: uh, "increasing" is a subset of "monotonic"
06:28	callen	cemerick: I hate Couch
06:28	callen	cemerick: sorry, I was being sarcastic earlier. I actually spend more time with NoSQL at work than I do RDBMS
06:29	bawr	pjstadig: I think you wanted "unevenly" or something
06:29	callen	cemerick: which is partly why I don't have an established choice in migrations.
06:29	callen	I'm pretty close to saying fuggit and using MangoDB
06:29	callen	particularly since psql is bitching about my .sql now.
06:31	zilti	Is clj-sandbox the only whitelist sandbox for clojure?
06:33	echo-area	Is it possible to write java files, that depends back on clojure, in leiningen?
06:34	echo-area	I feel like I'm messing up leiningen, I make some clojure modules depend on java, and some java modules depend on clojure
06:37	callen	pjstadig: thanks for taking the time to investigate my issues with me
06:37	callen	pjstadig: I really appreciate it.
06:40	pjstadig	callen: sure, sorry it wasn't a better experience, but like I said I'll prioritize upgrading to lein2
06:40	pjstadig	i've been avoiding it
06:41	callen	pjstadig: I'd love it so I can stop futzing around with my executing my SQL files manually :)
06:41	callen	also, word to the wise, user is a reserved word in postgresql.
06:41	callen	derp.
06:47	augustl	callen: if you're gonna say fuggit, you should consider datomic imo :) Been porting a mongo system to datomic over the weekend, works great
06:48	augustl	and yes, we're yet another item in the set of "chose mongodb because it's easy to get started with but it wasn't really a good choice for the system"
06:48	zilti	Is there some thing like full-text search in Datomic?
06:49	augustl	zilti: there is, it comes with lucene
06:49	augustl	zilti: I use elasticsearch though
06:51	callen	augustl: not on your life
06:51	zilti	augustl: I'm almost sold. Don't need those fancy http-search-stuff things though, so lucene'll just be fine
06:51	callen	I'm not letting somebody else hold me hsotage for my data.
06:51	augustl	callen: and fyi, we use the free version, seems to me that you only really need to pay when you need to scale a lot
06:51	augustl	callen: because you can't access the source code you mean?
06:51	callen	augustl: I don't care if it's free unless you're colored purple
06:51	callen	augustl: I am not letting somebody else have control over my data
06:52	callen	period, end of story.
06:52	zilti	The only thing I can't find are the docs of Datomic. That just gives me a page header "Development Resources" without content.
06:52	augustl	callen: and you're saying that because of source code access?
06:52	callen	augustl: I'm not really in the mood to discuss it.
06:52	augustl	zilti: http://docs.datomic.com/
06:52	callen	augustl: it's 100% out of the question though.
06:52	augustl	callen: heh, you shouldn't throw out bombshells then :)
06:52	augustl	you tickled my curiousity!
06:52	callen	augustl: It hardly takes a genius to see that Datomic's setup is no different from Oracle's
06:52	Raynes	Datomic smells like dirty sumo underwear to me too, callen. Don't feel bad.
06:52	zilti	augustl: Just checked it, the page is broken for Opera.
06:53	augustl	zilti: it took me a while to understand the basics though, the docs are kind of abstract
06:53	callen	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: getenv in class java.lang.System, compiling:(garbwell/utils.clj:4)
06:53	callen	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7866
06:53	augustl	zilti: hopefully this will help you: your schema defines attributes. In transactions, you create entities that gets IDs. You can associate any attribute with any entity (there's no tables/documents/etc)
06:53	callen	seriously? what am I doing wrong.
06:54	callen	Raynes: speaking of refheap, I noticed it's back up. Did heroku come back up or did you flip it around?
06:54	augustl	callen: so is this still about source code? Not sure what you mean with setup.
06:54	zilti	augustl: So it's some kind of "semantic database"?
06:54	augustl	callen: (System/getenv key)
06:54	callen	augustl: business model, licensing, source access are all identical to Oracle
06:54	callen	aw shit.
06:54	callen	I see it now.
06:54	Raynes	callen: Heroku came back up at like 11AM yesterday or something.
06:54	augustl	or does System/getenv return a map when given no args? If so it should work
06:55	callen	augustl: it returns a map given no args
06:55	callen	augustl: but your suggestion told me what I did wrong anyway.
06:55	Raynes	callen: I'm strongly considering moving it back to amalloy_'s and my linode.
06:55	augustl	callen: ah, (get (System/getenv) key) :)
06:55	callen	augustl: da.
06:55	augustl	zilti: not sure what that means :)
06:56	Raynes	I pay $20 a month for something I can get for free with better uptime on Heroku, and I think my original reasons for moving to Heroku were silly anyways. I'll probably set up some sort of git-based deployment though, because I've grown attached to that part.
06:56	zilti	augustl: I probably don't, either :)
06:56	Raynes	on linode*
06:56	augustl	zilti: the other stuff is pretty clear in talks, that queries are on the client, transactor only does writes, etc. But the part I Just explained wasn't that evident to me at least
06:56	callen	Raynes: I've done a lot of automation of deployment at my day job, let me know if you want any pointers.
06:57	callen	Raynes: pity you weren't here earlier. I was bashing my head against the wall for a solid 3-4 hours. It's 0348 here and I've been awake since yesterday
06:57	Raynes	callen: Will do, and I appreciate the offer.
06:57	Raynes	It's 5:48AM here and I've been awake since yesterday.
06:57	Raynes	You and I are like two peas in a stay-awake pill commerical.
06:57	Raynes	commercial*
06:57	zilti	augustl: I'll definitely will check it out for my next project, but for my current one it's too late (I don't like changing things so deep down in a project, it might screw up everything)
06:58	callen	Raynes: heroku, MongoHQ, Datomic, they all tickle my spidey sense for various reasons. I don't really like being directly dependent on third party entities like that. Amusingly, technomancy had the same problem with grove.io admittedly of a less serious sort.
06:58	augustl	zilti: we're 6 months in and changed from mongo to datomic over a weekend, pretty happy with the modularity we achieved
06:59	augustl	callen: I'm not sure why I don't mind datomic being closed source.. Guess I'm too much of a fanboy or something, normally I resent proprietary stuff in my systems.
06:59	Raynes	callen: I moved to Heroku because a bunch of pastebins shut down one after the other over DDOS attacks and I don't have any experience handling anything like that. AFAICT, 'handling' a ddos attack appears to mostly mean just shutting it off until it is over and crying.
06:59	callen	augustl: if you normally resent proprietary stuff and you're okay with Datomic, then you're being irrational and fanboyism is a plausible explanation.
07:00	callen	Raynes: there are ways to mitigate DDOS, but if you're a small operation, it's rough.
07:01	zilti	Too bad fleet db is dead. I really liked the way it works.
07:01	callen	augustl: I cannot in good conscience allow anything I make, side project or in my day job, be unduly controlled by a third party entity like that.
07:02	callen	it's bad enough I'm subject to the whims of technomancy via lein ;)
07:02	augustl	callen: datomic hasn't caused any problems for me yet though, unlike proprietary blobs on Linux desktop setups that breaks when I update the kernel etc.
07:02	callen	You're really missing the point.
07:02	callen	augustl: listen, I used to be a Microsoft .NET developer for a living.
07:03	callen	augustl: I've heard every excuse on the planet for explaining away how it doesn't matter if it's not proprietary.
07:03	callen	augustl: it matters and I'm not allowing it anything I build.
07:03	callen	if it's proprietary*
07:03	Raynes	Deep breaths
07:04	callen	Raynes: how was your Christmas anyway?
07:04	Raynes	Well, there was a tornado outbreak so I monitored meteorological data all day, but we escaped danger.
07:05	Raynes	I wrote https://github.com/Raynes/cegdown and did some laser stuff.
07:05	callen	does anyone here know how to override/shutoff that obnoxious log4j shit in Korma?
07:05	Raynes	Ate leftovers from Christmas eve.
07:05	Raynes	Played Far Cry 2 and Snapshot.
07:05	Raynes	It was a good day.
07:05	callen	Raynes: ah, you like indie games too?
07:05	callen	Raynes: HIB?
07:06	Raynes	All the time
07:06	Anderkent	callen: log4j is usually controlled from a config file like src/log4j.xml
07:07	Raynes	Or resources/log4j.xml if you don't hate yourself.
07:07	Anderkent	yeah ment that but forgot the canonical place :)
07:08	Anderkent	the readme for korma says to set logger "com.mchange" to WARN
07:09	callen	I know, I just resent being forced to use log4j.
07:13	Raynes	I wish somebody would take over Korma.
07:13	Raynes	It's sad that so many people use it yet are unwilling to manage it.
07:14	callen	I couldn't get log4j to stop breaking
07:14	callen	I'm getting a little frustrated.
07:14	callen	No appenders could be found for logger <--- despite having made that example xml
07:15	callen	guess I now need to learn how to configure log4j
07:15	callen	which I don't even want to use
07:15	callen	but am forced to because of korma.
07:18	callen	Raynes: do you have a project that uses log4j that i can reference?
07:18	Raynes	Not sure if I have any open source ones. Might be one. Let me check
07:19	callen	I hate editing XMl.
07:19	Anderkent	well, i think it's c3p0 actually, not korma. And unfortunately it seems it uses log4j directly, not slf4j, so yeah you've got no choice
07:19	Anderkent	you can configure log4j with properties instead of xml if you prefer
07:19	callen	that doesn't change much for me.
07:19	callen	it's still awful java shit leaking into my clojure
07:20	Raynes	callen: https://github.com/geni/geni-gedcom with the caveat that I do not remember if I ever got logging to actually work (I had to consult with a co-worker, but it was a while ago).
07:20	Raynes	I think I did.
07:20	borkdude	Raynes read the README of laser, it looks nice
07:21	dbushenko	hi all
07:21	dbushenko	can you please point me any presentations showing best of the clojure? some clojure propaganda
07:21	callen	got it working now.
07:21	Raynes	borkdude: It does lots more than what is in the README. I've just been working on it so fast that I haven't kept the README up to date. I'm changing things as I discover problems/things that need to be added while I rewrite refheap's views to use it.
07:22	Raynes	callen: Did my stuff help?
07:22	Raynes	I bet just my talking about it helped.
07:22	Raynes	I have that effect on you.
07:23	callen	Raynes: I googled the appender syntax for XML, put it in resources/ as you suggested, eventually got it working after futzing around
07:23	callen	my database layer seems to be working now for pathological definitions of working
07:24	callen	I might go grab my vodka and have myself a good cry now, having spent 5+ hours just getting migrations and database access working
07:24	Raynes	callen: I've got some hard lemonade if you need.
07:26	callen	Raynes: 'ppreciate the offer. I'll just dump out my tea and coffee, switch to vodka, and call it a night. At least I'm close to implementing actual stuff now.
07:26	callen	things were a lot easier when it was all lein1, Noir, and Mongo. I'll say that much.
07:26	Raynes	callen: Have a nice ... whatever time it is now.
07:26	callen	moving to lein2, postgres/korma, ring/compojure all in one shot was not a great idea.
07:27	Raynes	I've made that mistake before.
07:27	callen	Raynes: 0418, cheers.
07:27	Raynes	I do one thing at a time now.
07:27	Raynes	Cheers.
07:27	callen	Raynes: yeah, lesson learned.
07:27	callen	I should really know better, too.
07:33	dbushenko	is it possible to aot-compile records?
07:33	jml	I'm working on a clojure project w/ a lein project.clj and nrepl-jack-in in my emacs. How do I do the equiv of 'lein run' from emacs?
07:33	callen	jml: M-x shell?
07:36	Raynes	callen, jml: M-& RET lein run
07:38	jml	thanks.
07:39	abaranosky	Raynes: what's the issue I hear about Korma not having a maintainer?
07:40	abaranosky	Raynes: If needed I could consider maintaining it
07:41	abaranosky	its pretty nice software, that I've been using happily.
08:18	jml	with incanter, how do you tell it that one of the columns of a dataset is a categorical variable? I've found categorical-var, but don't know how to actually use it to do what I want.
08:28	deg	Using nrepl in emacs, what's the best way to switch between multiple leiningen projects?
08:56	pjstadig	callen: if you would be willing to give it a try, i think i may have something that works with lein2
08:56	pjstadig	callen: set up your project.clj something like this https://github.com/pjstadig/migratus-lein/blob/master/test-project/project.clj
09:06	ferd	pjstadig: Thanks... migratus looks interesting. Could you give us a quick comparisson with other options? like ragtime ?
09:06	ferd	https://github.com/weavejester/ragtime/
09:11	zilti	add-watch is described as "alpha - subject to change". How high is the possibility that it gets severly altered or removed? Is it still there in 1.5?
09:12	pjstadig	ferd: ragtime it a bit more complicated IMO, with conflict resolution strategies, and originally didn't use straight sql
09:13	pjstadig	ferd: it also does not wrap a transaction around the entire transaction, which doesn't matter for mysql, but for databases with transactional DDL it does
09:14	pjstadig	drift is nice, but it doesn't work with our git workflow where topic branches can be merged in different order that they were created
09:14	pjstadig	drift also has a DSL, and I prefer to just use SQL, since it's already a DSL, and generally applications don't need data base independence (if that is even possible)
09:15	pjstadig	libraries might, but applications usually don't
09:16	pjstadig	also, if you're doing migrations in a library... God help you
09:17	Anderkent	well, it's nice not to have to install postgres on every dev machine, seeing how much pain setting it up is
09:19	pjstadig	i've always found postgres very easy to setup if you use ident-based authentication
09:19	Anderkent	I still don't get the git issue, seems like you need to modify your migrations on merge anyway if you had both branches create some
09:19	Anderkent	since you have to choose the canonical order to run them and handle any conflicts ..
09:20	pjstadig	you don't need to modify migrations
09:20	pjstadig	if i create a branch and add a create table migration, why should i have to rename the file on a merge
09:20	pjstadig	and what about people that may have already run it with the old name
09:20	Anderkent	well you still need to inspect for conflicts
09:21	pjstadig	if you have dependencies between your migrations, then you start your branch on a commit that contains the migrations you need to depend on
09:21	pjstadig	otherwise they have no business caring about each other
09:21	pjstadig	Anderkent: rails used to use a single global version for dbs like you are saying, but after they switched from svn to git they realized that that doesn't work so well with git workflows
09:21	pjstadig	and they changed to the way migratus does it
09:24	Anderkent	I always had a lot of issues with merging in migrations because of that, as they would run in wrong order instead of just scrapping the db and running everything in the right order
09:24	Anderkent	f.e. say you have two parallel branches and both add a column to a table
09:24	Anderkent	if you run them in different orders the order of columns will be different, which may matter
09:24	Anderkent	even though the migrations do not really depend on each other
09:32	ferd	thanks pjstadig. I've run into the problem of merging from multiple branches... but as Anderkent points out, you still must pay close attention not to incur in "semantic" conflicts
09:33	pjstadig	Anderkent: yeah, i mean if other migration libraries work for you, that's cool, they weren't working for me
09:34	ferd	regarding the use of an internal DSL or plain SQL, I also prefer plain SQL. However, it'd be great if you could run arbitrary Clojure code as part of the migration steps... I found that need more than once
09:34	Anderkent	mhm, I kinda am thinking I'd like one that explicitly checks if all migrations < current state were ran and fails when they weren't
09:34	Anderkent	ferd: drift on its own just runs your clojure code, you can use a dsl (drift-db) with it, but you can just directly send SQL to whatever db you want
09:39	ferd	looks like ragtime follows a similar approach
10:05	zilti	I have that very strange stacktrace here from running lein midje. It does not tell me what line of code in my program threw that exception nor could I find that out by uncommenting pretty much everything in my program: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7867
10:06	zilti	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
10:08	ferd	may be your namespace definition ?
10:08	ferd	zilti: ^^^
10:11	zilti	ferd: Thanks! I forgot a pair of braces...
10:11	gfredericks	&(doc take-while)
10:11	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/take-while ([pred coll]) Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects. nil
10:11	gfredericks	^ "returns true" is misleading
10:12	gfredericks	I guess once you're assuming it's a predicate...
10:13	ferd	zilti: I don't know why, but error checks on the (ns ...) macro is pretty weak (non-existent actually)
10:13	Anderkent	what else did you have in mind?
10:16	zilti	ferd: pff, why should there? I mean, who would make mistakes at such a simple thing as namespace declaration?
10:39	zilti	&(apply #(%) [{}])
10:39	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap
10:40	gfredericks	&({})
10:40	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap
10:41	zilti	&(apply #(identity %) [{}])
10:41	lazybot	⇒ {}
11:08	deg	Using emacs with nrepl, I just typed something in a .clj buffer that caused emacs to switch to a nrepl-error buffer and forcibly go back there each time I tried returning to the source file. Acts like something was erring at read-time or some such. But, I didn't type anything that unusual. Anyone ever see this before? Where do I report it (assuming I can reproduce it)?
11:09	chouser	I guess you'd report that to the nrepl.el author
11:10	chouser	Looks like he uses github issues: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues
11:11	deg	chouser: thanks. Trying to reproduce the problem now. So far, no luck. (after restarting emacs)
11:13	chouser	I much prefer nrepl.el with nrepl-popup-stacktraces off
11:15	deg	chouser: Hmm, I've never heard of nrepl-popup-stacktraces. From the name, sounds like it might be very nice. thx.
11:18	deg	chouser: Ah, I see. looks nice.
11:19	chouser	*e still gets you the exception, and (pst) prints in the repl window
11:20	deg	Also, do you know how I can switch between multiple projects? (I don't really need both active concurrently, thought that would be nice too. My workflow is to spend a few hours on one project,then shift gears. And, I'd rather not have to restart emacs in between)
11:22	chouser	I think you can close the nrepl buffers and jack in again
11:24	deg	ok
11:40	deg	In nrepl, is *1 not bound to the last value returned?
11:41	tpope	it is
12:02	deg	tpope: Hmm, then something is faking me out or misconfigured.
12:04	deg	in a cmdline lein repl, if I do (+ 3 4), then 1 is bound to 7. In the emacs nrepl* buffer, it is bound to ().
12:10	dimovich	hello ppl
12:10	dimovich	could someone drop me some code using edn?
12:22	technomancy	callen: did you see the clojars migration code?
12:23	technomancy	callen: a lein plugin to run migrations is silly IMO; it should just be an alias to lein run -m ...
12:23	technomancy	run is how you expose in-project code on the command line
12:25	technomancy	deg: what version of nrepl.el? works for me on 1.5
12:40	deg	technomancy: 1.6-preview
12:43	technomancy	must be a regression
12:46	yedi	do you guys end up using SQL or noSQL more often?
12:47	gtrak	yedi: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2416566
12:52	zilti	yedi: I always use SQL because I'm too lazy to start with one of those NoSQL DBs.
12:53	konr_trab	What's the best way to implement in clojure a timer thing that calls a function every N seconds?
12:54	technomancy	konr_trab: executors!
12:55	zilti	,(loop [counter] (do (Thread/sleep 5000) (if-not (< counter 10) nil (recur (inc counter)))))
12:55	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: loop requires an even number of forms in binding vector in sandbox:>
12:56	zilti	,(loop [counter 0] (do (Thread/sleep 5000) (if-not (< counter 10) nil
12:56	zilti	(recur (inc counter))))) ;; Always wanted to try this on here followed by...
12:56	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:56	gfredericks	does `lein test` do something weird when looking up code? My test helper namespace is getting eval'd twice
12:56	zilti	whatever
12:58	technomancy	gfredericks: it does require :reload
12:58	technomancy	in order to support interactive things
12:58	gfredericks	I see.
12:58	gfredericks	hokay.
12:59	zilti	,(loop [counter 0] (if (< counter 10) (do (Thread/sleep 5000) (println "still didn't timeout") (recur (inc counter))) nil))
12:59	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
12:59	zilti	&(loop [counter 0] (if (< counter 10) (do (Thread/sleep 5000) (println "still didn't timeout") (recur (inc counter))) nil))
13:00	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
13:00	gfredericks	zilti: the bots accept PMs as well
13:00	zilti	gfredericks: Sorry for spamming the channel, forgot about that...
13:33	Anderkent	technomancy: can i somehow stop leins test from calling System/exit when running them with clojure.test/run-tests? I wanted to try my code coverage tool on it, but it dies on some compilation tests.
13:34	technomancy	Anderkent: you should be able to bind leiningen.core.main/exit-process? to false
13:36	Anderkent	mhm, hoped for something that I could do without lein-specific code, guess I'll have to work with that
13:36	technomancy	Anderkent: oh, lein will never call System/exit just from run-tests
13:37	Anderkent	it does on its own tests (one of the compilation tests has compilation fail, which then triggers death)
13:37	Anderkent	either that or i'm doing something wrong :)
13:37	technomancy	oh, for its own tests; I see
13:38	technomancy	yeah, you would have to rebind that var if you want to keep its own tests going after a failure
13:40	deg	Is there some way to compare two regex's to see if they are the same. (I need this for tests, not production code, so no comments about why this is stupid or generally not a well-formed question)
13:40	deg	,[(= "A." "A." ) (= #"A." #"A." )]
13:40	clojurebot	[true false]
13:41	technomancy	deg: I think you have to str them first
13:41	technomancy	or prn maybe
13:41	deg	technomancy: str does the trick, thank. I hadn't realized it worked on regexes.
13:41	technomancy	str works on anything =)
13:42	deg	Tries str on his pet dog. .... nope, not everything. :-)
13:43	technomancy	wait till 1.5 is out; I think they added reader literals for mammals
13:43	Anderkent	you just need to thread it through the interpreter
13:43	technomancy	only slightly less useful than reader literals for UUIDs
13:44	zilti	Anderkent: I see problems with the animal protection
13:44	deg	Good thing it's not an OO language. I'd hate to see the standard newbie OO code of dogs barking written with reader macros.
13:45	Anderkent	zilti: you can work around that with reflection
13:46	zilti	deg: Nothing prevents you from implementing an object system for Clojure ;) Except your sanity.
13:46	deg	oh god
13:46	p_l	... isn't there an object system already?
13:46	Anderkent	okay, different question. Can I somehow give file/line numbers for evalled statements?
13:46	p_l	in fact, isn't Clojure full of object, in the "old" style?
13:46	p_l	(before OOP became synonymous with inheritance, an orthogonal concept)
13:47	zilti	p_l: It is, but you'll have to use all those java-interop-things and a weird notation.
13:47	zilti	I would not want to use it as it is now
13:47	p_l	zilti: I'm not talking about the java interop stuff :)
13:47	p_l	Java's stilted, limited OOP is not everything :)
13:48	zilti	p_l: You mean those protocol & friends macros?
13:49	p_l	yes. As well as multimethods etc.
13:49	zilti	For me that feels like interop stuff
13:49	p_l	just because some were taught that OOP means inheritance and "methods in classes" doesn't mean it's 100% true :)
13:50	technomancy	clojure doesn't implement message-passing OO either though
13:50	p_l	technomancy: It does implement enough of "generic function" variant of OOP for me
13:51	technomancy	erlang is a lot closer to the original definition
13:52	p_l	technomancy: yes, though they don't like to hear that :)
13:54	Anderkent	i take the silence to mean there's no way to tell clojure which file/line to put in stacktrace when evalling forms?
13:54	Anderkent	(well, not silence exactly :P)
13:54	technomancy	Anderkent: have you tried attaching metadata to the form?
13:55	technomancy	I'm not sure exactly how, but I think that's where trace data is read from
13:56	Anderkent	hm. Now that I think about it I tried setting lines, but not the file name, should try it i guess
13:56	Anderkent	hard to debug stack traces where every other line says 'leiningen.core.project/fn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)' :P
13:57	egghead	can I use the standard -Darg=whatever on lein invocation?
13:57	egghead	like `lein run -Dhttp.port=1234` or something?
13:59	yogthos	Anderkent: you can also just restart the REPL it'll actually tell you what file/line it's dying in that way
13:59	yogthos	or is this something more sinister than that?
14:00	Anderkent	yogthos: alas it's not in the repl - I'm instrumenting source code and evaling the produced forms instead of original source
14:00	yogthos	ahh
14:01	technomancy	egghead: you can set :jvm-opts in project.clj
14:02	egghead	thanks technomancy
14:02	egghead	technomancy: hashmap of keys/vals ?
14:03	technomancy	egghead: vector of strings
14:03	egghead	kk, thanks
14:10	Anderkent	ah-ha, `def` can have a docstring as well... How does it differentiate between a (def mystring "stringvalue") and (def my-unitialized-value "docstring") ? I suppose the latter is not possible?
14:14	Anderkent	btw, how do you guys format (cond) statements? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7871 is fairly readable but shifts the code so far right you have to split even a simple statement over 3-4 lines
14:15	technomancy	there is no good way to format cond =(
14:16	technomancy	Anderkent: that paste actually looks like a good fit for pattern matching
14:17	Anderkent	remind me how do I do that in clojure?
14:17	technomancy	Anderkent: you have to pull in core.match: https://github.com/clojure/core.match
14:18	Anderkent	thanks, will look into it someday
14:22	dnolen	Anderkent: these days I usually format large cond's like this http://www.refheap.com/paste/7872
14:24	Anderkent	yeah I don't like it either but don't see a better way :P
14:27	chouser	we need to teach clojure-mode about forms with pairs that should be indented extra for the second item of each pair
14:27	chouser	bindings (let, fn, etc.), cond
14:27	technomancy	it's like three pages long, state threaded throughout, no comments
14:28	technomancy	as a single defun =(
14:28	chouser	heh, yeah, I've looked at it. haven't touched it.
14:28	technomancy	I don't want to change the logic for let/fn though
14:28	chouser	I wanted to do the new syntax threading macros too, but those are extra tricky
14:29	Anderkent	hm. Can removing type hints break java interop code?
14:29	technomancy	mostly cond just sits there taunting me for not switching to core.match
14:30	technomancy	I'm OK with that
14:32	chouser	Anderkent: I think it's possible.
14:32	technomancy	oh, clojure's indent is actually commented; nice. I was thinking of ruby-mode as the pit of nameless horrors.
14:34	pjstadig	Anderkent: depends on what you mean by break
14:35	koik	http://www.carolinaherrera.com/212/es/areyouonthelist?share=NVq56AQ2vxgECOtvW_3-cC_MeqWSEVkU2vlXs7SL5zHkz4rz3EUUdzs6j6FXsjB4447F-isvxjqkXd4Qey2GHw#teaser
14:35	deg	Just wondering ... why did Clojure choose top-level pairs for forms like cond and let, rather than copying the Common Lisp idea of an extra level of parens?
14:36	technomancy	deg: Clojure reserves parens for calls with a few exceptions. it leads to much more regularity
14:37	Anderkent	pjstadig: code that used to work throws exceptions (i think a different java method is called, they dispatch on type, but the error message is rather terrible)
14:37	ppppaul	i would like to use double quotes in my doc strings
14:37	ppppaul	any suggestions?
14:37	Anderkent	i suppose it's much more likely my macroexpansion is broken somewhere
14:37	technomancy	Anderkent: certainly possible. the main condition that would trigger that would be nil arguments. there might be others.
14:38	technomancy	ppppaul: paredit will automatically escape them for you
14:38	deg	technomancy: Yup, that makes sense. But, why not [] braces for each cond term and each pair of let bindings?
14:38	Anderkent	technomancy: can you expand on the nil arguments bit?
14:38	ppppaul	but when they are escaped i can't evaluate my doc code
14:39	technomancy	deg: because that further dilutes the meaning of braces
14:39	deg	technomancy: Is there a doc anywhere that disusses the historical decisions that shaped clojure?
14:39	Anderkent	ppppaul: read-string on the doc string then eval that?
14:39	chouser	deg: you're reading it
14:39	ppppaul	ok
14:39	technomancy	Anderkent: for non-nil arguments, reflection can be used to find the "proper" method call at runtime. but that doesn't work when the arg is nil; it has to guess or something. bit fuzzy on the details.
14:39	chouser	deg: historical notes at http://clojure-log.n01se.net/ :-)
14:40	deg	chouser: Sigh. Besides the intense length of years of chat, is it even archived anywhere?
14:40	Anderkent	that makes sense, thanks
14:40	ppppaul	read-string isn't doing anything different
14:40	chouser	deg: so in short, no not really.
14:40	ppppaul	i get errors when trying to eval the \"
14:40	chouser	deg: the archive exists but yes, it's a lot of text.
14:41	deg	technomancy: But [] is already used for the outer grouping around let bindings.
14:41	technomancy	deg: exactly
14:42	deg	technomancy: ?? Are you saying "that was already a bad decision, so why compound it", or "it would be too confusing to overload '[' to mean both levels of bracketing"?
14:42	Anderkent	(let [[[[a b] & others] source]]
14:42	Anderkent	no thanks.
14:43	technomancy	deg: it would be overloaded and probably introduce ambiguity when it comes to destructuring
14:43	technomancy	also, it wouldn't improve readability
14:43	deg	Yup, I forgot about destructiong. Definitely a big win of Clojure over CL.
14:43	technomancy	plus you can always drop commas in if you need more visual separation
14:44	deg	But, the nice thing about parens in CL was how well it interplayed with emacs indentation.
14:44	pjstadig	Anderkent: when clojure compiles code it can only dispatch on arity, so if you have a Java class with more than one overload for a single method, and each overload has the same number of arguments, but different types, then type hints are necessary and removing them can break code
14:44	pjstadig	but the exception you'd get would be like method not found or something
14:44	pjstadig	if you're experiencing some other kind of problem, then it is probably not type hint related
14:44	technomancy	pjstadig: that doesn't take into account runtime reflection though
14:45	deg	technomancy: Do folks really use commas much? I had assumed they were mostly just thrown in as a nicety for java programmers used to them.
14:45	ppppaul	i use commas everywhere
14:45	technomancy	deg: you see them sometimes when keeping multiple let bindings on a single line
14:45	deg	But, getting back to the original question, I wonder if commas could enhance readability in a cond form too?
14:45	technomancy	I usually use line breaks instead
14:45	zilti	I never use them. It clutters the code
14:46	zilti	commas
14:46	ppppaul	(->> foo-array (map identity ,,,))
14:46	technomancy	deg: IMO newlines are better in cond, but sometimes when the test clause is long it's not feasible
14:47	technomancy	deg: but even then you'd put the commas at the end of the value, which is not that helpful because the ambiguity is present at the beginning of the line
14:48	deg	Agreed. I'm not a fan of commas. I am a strong fan of proper indentation, and I want my editor to do the work for me. So, I guess the only answer that would make me happy is smarter indenting by Emacs.
14:48	Anderkent	when adding a debug log statement fixes the bug, you know you're screwed :S
14:48	technomancy	deg: or stop using cond =)
14:49	deg	technomancy: commas at the beginning of the line would look a bit weird (especially to anyone coming from a CL macro world!), but would actually force the indentation to be more readable. I can't believe I'm suggesting this, though.
14:49	pjstadig	technomancy: even with non nil arguments there are type based overloads that are ambiguous at runtime
14:49	technomancy	pjstadig: true; nil is just the most common case
14:50	technomancy	deg: yeah, it might improve readability at the expense of offending taste =)
14:51	deg	You just need to bring some old teco programmers into the community. They'd love it.
14:52	technomancy	heh
15:07	dsop_	hmm where did datalog.utils go?
15:07	dsop_	from old contrib
15:07	dsop_	in particular the map-values fn
15:13	yedi	can someone link to an article that presents reasons for using clojure in the browser
15:14	lucian	jedi: there are quite a few. the main reason anyone would use something other than js in a browser is to avoid js
15:19	kovas	yedi: if u are using clojure on the backend, it makes for a sweet combination. can just pass clojure data structures. also just need to keep 1 language paradigm in your head.
15:20	kovas	yedi: clojurescript without clojure on back end has advantages, buts its a harder sell imho
15:22	lucian	kovas: it's not js, that's enough for me. it's just a pain to work with because it depends on the slow-ass jvm
15:23	lucian	if clojurescript was self-hosting, it'd be a much easier sell
15:23	yedi	lucian: thats what it seems like, but i like JS which makes me a bit hesitant to switch
15:23	kovas	lucian: I agree totally :)
15:23	lucian	yedi: JS is quite flawed, so pretty much anything beats it
15:23	kovas	lucian: still i think cljs is harder to get into for a clojure newbiew
15:24	kovas	(if you aren't already sold on clojure)
15:24	kovas	2013: the year of cljs self hosting
15:24	kovas	they are getting closer
15:25	bbloom	s/they/we/ you can help too :-)
15:25	kovas	trust me ill be an early adopter
15:25	kovas	need that shit for session
15:26	kovas	but i don't understand the core language stuff well enough
15:26	kovas	"vars and their discontents"
15:26	bbloom	kovas: i learned clojure by studying the cljs compiler. it's actually quite approachable. dig in, you might have fun!
15:26	tpope	sounds terrifying
15:27	kovas	bbloom: i will get there!
15:27	kovas	"twilight of the namespaces"
15:28	jonasen	kovas: Any reason you track changes to cljs generated js files? It's hard to read the diffs ( https://github.com/kovasb/session/commit/3cc368ba42ead84894861a6c8f8a426fe69f22a6 )
15:29	kovas	jonasen: the idea was so people could run session without first running cljsbuild
15:29	kovas	jonasen: but maybe that is a misguided idea
15:29	Anderkent	AH! it was indeed the nil issue technomancy, shame on me for doubting you. Now I need to make my instrumentation preserve type hints...
15:29	kovas	jonasen: what do you think?
15:30	jonasen	kovas: I don't think "lein cljsbuild once" is particularly difficult to type :)
15:30	kovas	jonasen: yeah, I guess I just wanted to minimize the chances of something going wrong.
15:30	kovas	jonasen: but at this point, better to optimize for dev happiness
15:31	kovas	jonasen: should I just put the output directory into .gitignore and then git rm those files?
15:32	jonasen	kovas: that should work. And update the README
15:32	kovas	ok i am on it
15:43	kovas	jonasen: ok, purged the files. in general the clojure files come last in the diffs
15:48	Anderkent	anyone know how type hints work? :P
15:50	bbloom	~anyone
15:50	bbloom	eh, our bots are slow.... Anderkent: somebody must know. so just ask your question & maybe somebody will answer it :-)
15:52	Anderkent	that was pretty much my question ^^ I'm looking for how they're parsed from the form and how to preserve them when doing modifications on source, but even a pointer to the related compiler code would help
15:53	bbloom	Anderkent: the keyword to grep for is :tag
15:54	Anderkent	I'm also rather confused by how the FN special seems to have no parser assigned in Compiler.java ..
15:54	chouser	,(read-string "^Foo bar")
15:54	clojurebot	bar
15:54	chouser	,(meta (read-string "^Foo bar"))
15:54	clojurebot	{:tag Foo}
15:54	chouser	,(type (:tag (meta (read-string "^Foo bar"))))
15:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:55	Anderkent	how do I extract one for function args?
15:55	Anderkent	(function return is easier, just (meta #'function-symbol)
15:56	chouser	ok, it's time to talk about compiler phases. :-)
15:56	bbloom	chouser: hurray! i want them in cljs :-)
15:57	chouser	cljs has them
15:57	bbloom	analyze vs emit doesn't count
15:57	chouser	if anything it has more, or at least better defined, phases
15:57	chouser	it does count! It's what Anderkent needs to know, I think.
15:57	chouser	bbloom: what phases are you talking about?
15:58	bbloom	dur, i read "phases" as "passes"
15:58	bbloom	i'd like to see analyze broken up into parse, expand, hinting, etc
15:58	bbloom	there's lots of stuff all mixed together in analyze right now
15:59	Anderkent	ah! so the :arglist keyword in a functions meta has its arguments, and these are tagged with types
15:59	bbloom	codeq, for example, wants to be able to search over the unexpanded source code, which isn't possible currently b/c analyze expands
15:59	bbloom	plenty of other use cases too
16:00	bbloom	Anderkent: to answer your question about the FN special, grep "FnExpr.parse", it's in analyzeSeq
16:00	Anderkent	thanks
16:00	Anderkent	I think I might be able to avoid that
16:00	bbloom	avoid what where?
16:00	Anderkent	if I just make sure to keep all the meta in the right places...
16:00	Anderkent	avoid looking into that
16:01	bbloom	won't hurt you to look (as long as you don't show hidden whitespace... cringe)
16:02	Anderkent	well kinda want to get stuff done so looking into compiler internals is not the preferred course of action
16:10	gtrak	is there a way to create a top-level lexical binding for all compojure routes in a defroutes statement without resorting to a var? I'm afraid this is one of these 'macros don't compose' cases
16:12	gtrak	I might make a macro that wraps them all and makes the binding available
16:13	jlewis	is there a canonical union find implementation for clojure?
16:13	jlewis	and if not, is the community interested in non-persistent data structures living in clojure contrib?
16:13	bbloom	jlewis: "union find"? do you mean set itersection?
16:14	jlewis	union find keeps track of elements that live in a bunch of disjoint sets
16:15	amalloy	jlewis: i have a closed-source implementation of union-find somewhere. let me see how much of it is salvageable
16:16	jlewis	i wrote one too, having not been able to find a nice one on the internets... but it's all ref-y, i'm not sure if people like non-persistent data structures here in clojure land :P
16:17	amalloy	jlewis: no, and i think it's a good exercise doing this without refs. mostly you end up passing/returning the forest around to a bunch of functions, instead of mutating it globally
16:17	amalloy	mine doesn't have any mutation, but i'm afraid there's rather a lot of business logic mixed in, since we couldn't afford the space or time to be more general
16:18	jlewis	amalloy: i think you end up killing the nice time bounds if you make it persistent with path copying, though :/
16:18	amalloy	naw
16:19	amalloy	the paths are extremely shallow in unino-find, and even if they weren't log32(n) is near enough to constant
16:19	amalloy	eg, we ran this on a dataset of, i dunno, a few hundred million items, and were easily outpacing the speed with which we could get nodes from the database
16:21	amalloy	have you read the wikipedia page on union-find? i was floored by a couple sentences in there about the complexity guarantees
16:21	bbloom	hm, i've done things like this before, had no idea it was called this... thanks i learned something :-)
16:21	jlewis	i don't think it helps that much that the paths are shallow, unless you're imagining doing it in a different way than me
16:21	jlewis	imagine you have 5 elements pointing at the root r
16:21	jlewis	and you're looking up the the 3rd element, or something
16:22	jlewis	if you do the path compression optimization, then i think you end up having to do a search to fix up the first couple of elements if its not mutable, right?
16:22	jlewis	because you're going to create a brand new node for the middle elements, up to the root
16:22	jlewis	but then the nodes at the bottom will still be pointing at the old elements..
16:22	jlewis	well that was as clear as mud, do you know what i mean though?
16:26	amalloy	jlewis: like i said, you need to pass and return the forest to more functions than if you were mutating. for example, the find operation can't just return a node, it has to return a new path-compressed forest, like https://gist.github.com/2df01576cd9843d34b10
16:32	jlewis	amalloy: i sent you a comment on that gist
16:35	gtrak	is there such a thing as macro-level apply?
16:36	gtrak	I want to make a macro that wraps a bunch of forms and returns a bunch of forms, but not as a seq
16:36	amalloy	no there isn't
16:36	chouser	A macro can return a list starting with 'do
16:36	S11001001	gtrak: no, macros aren't fun
16:37	gtrak	damn
16:37	gtrak	specifically, I want to wrap each handler in defroutes
16:37	amalloy	gtrak: then chouser's advice is relevant
16:37	gtrak	hmm
16:38	chouser	I don't know compojure well enough to say, but if there's functionality that accessible only via macro, this is exactly the kind of pain you end up in.
16:38	gtrak	yea, that's the case
16:38	amalloy	chouser: there isn't any; compojure is pretty good about that
16:38	gtrak	ah, then I am unwise
16:38	amalloy	weavejester says he regrets adding defroutes, because it makes people think routes doesn't exist
16:39	chouser	interesting
16:39	gtrak	:-)
16:39	jkkramer	GET and friends are macros
16:39	jkkramer	however, you can probably still do what you want with functions
16:39	gtrak	I can wrap an individual GET easily enough
16:39	gtrak	I have to use a macro for the sake of symbol-capture
16:39	amalloy	that's fair, jkkramer. i bet they delegate to a function pretty fast, though
16:39	jkkramer	gtrak: are you sure? can you explain the scenario?
16:40	jkkramer	amalloy: yeah, and it's a sensible choice, I think - it allows easy request/param destructuring
16:40	gtrak	jkkramer: we (not I) don't want to use a var, but are ending up with a lot of destructuring boilerplate in every handler, so I'm going to bind a symbol to a get-in call and wrap the handler definition
16:41	amalloy	i guess GET uses compile-route, which does an awful lot of macro magic. i guess the good news is you never seem to need GET as a function
16:41	gtrak	my first choice would be to use a middleware and a var... but hopefully this workaround is enough to make my colleagues reconsider :-)
16:44	jkkramer	gtrak: middleware sounds like a good option but it's hard to say without seeing specifics
16:45	gtrak	jkkramer: yea, I hate when implementation is specified from above, but I can work around constraints, especially in a lisp :-)
16:46	gtrak	it's easy enough to write something that acts like a var without being a var
16:47	jkkramer	it's considered bad practice by some, but I often end up having handlers take a full request maps or params instead of doing elaborate destructuring in the routes
16:47	jkkramer	I like thin routes
16:47	gtrak	jkkramer: yea, I do that sometimes
16:47	gtrak	in particular when I want to decomplect body-params from params
16:50	gtrak	I agree in general with thin routes, but sometimes it gets so hairy that pulling things out into functions makes it worse
16:51	gtrak	I blame it on the increased likelihood of control-flow in routes over normal clojure
16:52	gtrak	nil-punning and things are harder to deal with when they're more spread out
16:54	rbxbx	are there any OSS apps that demonstrate proper route/route-handling decomposition? The only larger app I've been able to reference has been 4clojure /c gtrak
16:54	gtrak	proper.... don't know the answer to that
16:55	gtrak	the nice thing about clojure is how easy it is to avoid patterns...
16:55	rbxbx	Proper was perhaps a poor choice of words
16:55	rbxbx	maybe... "generally agreeable" :)
16:56	Hodapp	gtrak: avoid patterns?
16:56	gtrak	I haven't looked at anything like that myself :-).. though our routes layer is about 1k right now
16:56	gtrak	1k lines
16:56	amalloy	hah. glad to hear 4clojure's counts as proper
16:57	gtrak	Hodapp: yea... there's very little repetitiveness, therefore it's hard to read code and see trends
16:59	Hodapp	gtrak: very compressed, in other words?
16:59	gtrak	yes
16:59	Hodapp	gtrak: but if it's hard to read code, why is it a good thing that Clojure makes it easy?
16:59	gtrak	because it's more signal than noise
16:59	gtrak	hopefully
16:59	Hodapp	hah
17:00	gtrak	it's certainly easier to read 5 lines that all look the same, in terms of lines-read per second
17:00	Hodapp	but repetition is certainly a red flag that something could be abstracted better
17:00	gtrak	yea... therefore good clojure code is really hard to read :-)
17:01	gtrak	but after you understand it, you might not want to change it
17:01	gtrak	at least, that's what I think
17:01	Hodapp	Well... I dunno if 'hard to read' is what it is. It can be concise without being overly dense.
17:02	Hodapp	Programming Clojure, I seem to recall, talked about how often lower-level code would be 'hiding' a pattern inside it
17:04	gtrak	yes..
17:04	gtrak	would you rather read code via reading the leaves (java)? or be given a choice of how to traverse the tree? that's kinda how I see it.
17:06	kevin_rh80	Does anyone know if "lein nrepl" ignores the jvm-opts from your project.clj file?
17:07	Hodapp	gtrak: well, my point is just that usually in the latter, it's not harder to read, it's easier because the structure is laid bare
17:08	gtrak	yes, I think it feels harder, but in meaning-per-time it's faster
17:10	bbloom	gtrak: totally. i can read java at extremely high speed. but there's just so much of it to read and i need to do so much navigating and back tracking and control flow following and playing-computer in my head that total time is far less for me to read comparable clojure functionality
17:10	gtrak	but busy-work feels good!
17:10	bbloom	also, functional programming & immutable data has a tendency to force complexity to the surface. you run into data dependencies quickly
17:11	bbloom	combine that w/ the interactive development workflow, and suddenly you type 4 lines before you say "oh shit, i didn't think about X" and you stop typing
17:11	bbloom	it's discouraging for folks who are used to writing class Foo {} and then slowly evolving out a solution
17:12	bbloom	while you're busy copy/pasting to refactor, you have lots of time to think, but your brain is pre-occupied, so your thinking is lower quality and you don't realize that your net time is much greater
17:14	Hodapp	bbloom: I have definitely run into this when trying to write things.
17:15	bbloom	i think it's a phenomenon that needs to be better understood and explained. would certainly help people who start to learn functional programming and then decide that they aren't smart enough for it.... right before they get it
17:15	bbloom	really, the opposite is true: i'm not smart enough for big OO mutable balls of hair :-)
17:15	yogthos	that's what I always found too
17:16	yogthos	oo and mutability are expert features
17:16	yogthos	you can do it well if you really know what you're doing, but it's much easier to shoot yourself in the foot
17:16	yogthos	with fp and immutability the language steers you to doing things properly
17:16	yogthos	often when it feels more difficult it's because you're forced to consider cases you just gloss over otherwise
17:17	Hodapp	bbloom: I need to get through "Can programming be liberated from the von Neumann style?" but I feel that this paper said something about this
17:17	yogthos	wrt reading speed though, I find you can understand individual lines in imperative code faster, but the overall meaning is often harder to divine
17:18	bbloom	yogthos: being forced to consider cases you'd otherwise gloss over requires you to WRITE SHIT DOWN
17:18	gtrak	mmm tasty Von Neumann... the funny thing is these issues of mutability and shared-state vs message-passing apply to the hardware level too
17:18	bbloom	which is why any considerable project i have has a HUUUGE scratch file
17:18	Hodapp	yogthos: surely the meaning of an individual line is clear, but all too often this just gives you very specific implementation details
17:18	bbloom	w/ tons of bullshit code that doesn't actually do anything
17:18	bbloom	and prose
17:18	yogthos	exactly
17:18	bbloom	and random thoughts spelled out
17:18	yogthos	and you lose the forest for the trees
17:18	bbloom	that no one on earth could make sense of
17:19	yogthos	the problem is in mixing what's being done with how it's done
17:19	yogthos	the code which solves your problem should be declarative
17:19	Hodapp	well, functional programming is really declarative, not imperative, so there is a lot less of the 'how'
17:19	yogthos	exactly
17:19	Hodapp	object-oriented, at least as in C++ and Java, tends to be imperative too
17:19	Hodapp	as much as people try to say it's not
17:19	yogthos	well the thing is objects don't protect their internal state in most langauges
17:20	yogthos	it's an honor system
17:20	Hodapp	you're giving a bunch of explicit state-manipulation commands in sequence, which looks pretty imperative to me
17:20	yogthos	I give you a reference and please don't modify it :)
17:20	Hodapp	SEGMENTATION FAULT'ED!
17:20	yogthos	lol
17:20	bbloom	objects are really useful for maintaining/coordinating invariants for a collection of mutable cells
17:20	yogthos	if objects could only be modified through setters and guaranteed atomic transactions it would be a lot nicer :)
17:21	gtrak	munge the data (values) with tools that make sense for that, do the side effects with tools that make sense for that
17:21	bbloom	well it becomes your only organization strategy
17:21	yogthos	you also lose the temporal aspect of your data, state is simply a view into the overall process
17:21	Hodapp	bbloom: this annoys me a lot.
17:22	yogthos	and if you're dealing with concurrency there might not be one definitive view that's correct for all parties
17:22	Hodapp	bbloom: it gets into a bunch of hand-waving... "The world is made of objects, therefore objects are the most natural organization blahblahblh"
17:22	bbloom	getters and setters are silly b/c it implies that you can change any property in any order and maintain the invariant
17:22	yogthos	I find classes are a case of premature contextualization
17:22	bbloom	consider a trivial (deftype Range [a b])
17:22	bbloom	where b >= a
17:23	yogthos	what I mean is that you might want to view the same data differently depending on the context
17:23	Hodapp	yogthos: premature contextualization... haven't heard that one before.
17:23	bbloom	if a and b are mutable, then what happens if you change a to be better than b? you have to move b to equal a
17:23	bbloom	so the order you change a or b matters
17:23	yogthos	if I have a namespace with related functions and I apply those functions to the data at runtime I get the context when appropriate
17:23	yogthos	but now I can take the same data and put it in a different context
17:23	bbloom	so setters make no sense in that context
17:24	Hodapp	I'm also getting through "How To Organize Programs Without Classes"; this is another interesting take
17:24	yogthos	in oo this is difficult and you see wrapper and adapter patterns as a result
17:24	Hodapp	or is it "Organizing Programs Without Classes"? Can't remember
17:24	yogthos	you can really think of namespaces as runtime version classes
17:24	yogthos	the other big difference is that you don't care where data came from
17:25	yogthos	with imperative you make a label for a memory location and keep referencing and poking it
17:25	yogthos	with fp you call a function and get a result
17:25	yogthos	it's exactly same as working with services
17:25	yogthos	I call a service get a result now I can do whatever with it
17:25	bbloom	yup, services sorta == objects
17:26	bbloom	except services really == objects + latency&failure
17:26	yogthos	I think erlang is probably the only proper oo language :P
17:26	Anderkent	smalltalk?
17:26	yogthos	smalltalk still has the mutability problem
17:26	Hodapp	Lua and JavaScript actually do a surprisingly good job with OO... so does Python
17:26	Hodapp	C++ and Java on the other hand can go suck it
17:27	reeses	kay admits mutability was a design mistake
17:27	yogthos	well you also have to consider the history
17:27	bbloom	reeses: where?
17:27	yogthos	resources used to be pretty expensive and architecture was predominantly single core
17:27	Hodapp	reeses: [citation needed] on that one :)
17:27	yogthos	so mutability made a lot of sense
17:27	Anderkent	so if running something used ta break stuff, and not it stopped, does it count as fixed even if i didn't change anything? :S
17:27	bbloom	iirc, the smalltalk-like language that kay's viewpoints research thing uses has the ability to capture the entire world
17:27	yogthos	now the overhead of having immutable data and gc is far outweighed by the benefits
17:27	Hodapp	yogthos: but at the same time Kay conceived of objects as things that didn't even need to be on the same computer
17:28	bbloom	not sure how that works tho, i assume it implies persistent data structures
17:28	Hodapp	yogthos: he proposed, for instance, that maybe even each object would have a URL
17:28	bbloom	Hodapp: that's basically true in erlang
17:28	yogthos	yeah and then they would work like erlang :P
17:28	bbloom	each erlang process has a pid
17:28	joevandyk	is there a reason to run more than one JVM process on a single machine? i'm used to running dozens of processes (web apps, background jobs, cron thingies, services). All those things could be consolidated to a single JVM process, right?
17:28	yogthos	it's kind of beautiful really
17:28	yogthos	well erlang processes are very lightweight, it's 1 vm
17:29	yogthos	but each "thread" is a green process on it
17:29	bbloom	joevandyk: the JVM's isolation guarentes are pretty weak
17:29	yogthos	and it takes only a few bytes of overhead
17:29	Hodapp	and I know in Self, which was very similar to Smalltalk in many ways, they were somewhat strict in their handling of OO and the way that it was always supposed to further the illusion that it was real (presumably mutable) objects you were manipulating
17:29	yogthos	jvm threads are system threads on the other hand
17:29	Hodapp	and while this is still mutable, I prefer it greatly to OO as languages like C++ handle it
17:29	bbloom	yogthos: clojure's agents are, in many ways, similar to erlang agents
17:29	joevandyk	bbloom: any reading on that?
17:29	bbloom	is there a distributed version of clojure's agents?
17:29	yogthos	bbloom: yup there'd definitely a lot of similarity
17:29	yogthos	yeah avout
17:30	reeses	http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/81261 was where I first saw his comments implying immutability was preferred
17:30	joevandyk	thinking of moving to jvm (with zero experience), trying to figure out how to structure things
17:30	bbloom	joevandyk: what are you trying to accomplish?
17:30	yogthos	http://clojure.com/blog/2011/11/29/avout.html
17:30	Hodapp	reeses: thanks!
17:30	reeses	np
17:30	bbloom	yogthos: avout is awesome, but no agents afaict
17:30	gtrak	lol, answered by Alan Kay, awesome
17:30	reeses	more digging will get more usenet posts, etc.
17:30	reeses	yeah, I love it
17:30	bbloom	but holy hell are zk-atoms more pleasant to work with than zk
17:30	yogthos	I haven't looked at it in a little while, you might be right :)
17:31	reeses	"what did alan kay..."
17:31	joevandyk	bbloom: standard web app things. multiple sites. things constantly running in background at intervals and async. emails being sent.
17:31	bbloom	joevandyk: JVM apps tend to use a lot of threads
17:31	yogthos	yup
17:31	bbloom	poorly written jvm apps use a lot of locks
17:31	yogthos	do you need push or pull type stuff?
17:31	bbloom	better written ones use a lot of queues
17:32	bbloom	clojure apps tend to use agents (queues), atoms (compare-and-swap) etc
17:32	Anderkent	joevandyk: multiple sites is probably one JVM hosting the servlet container (tomcat/jetty etc.) and then these handle spinning up threads to handle your sites
17:32	yogthos	yeah you definitely want to use an app server
17:32	yogthos	each app can be packaged in a war, and then each one gets its own context
17:32	bbloom	joevandyk: yeah Anderkent is right. those servlet containers are what act as the operating systems of sorts
17:33	yogthos	you basically just package them up and drop them in the webapps folder
17:33	joevandyk	ah, ok
17:33	yogthos	I recommend glassfish personally
17:33	joevandyk	anyone use immutant?
17:34	yogthos	you might want to check this out for restful services too http://clojure-liberator.github.com/
17:34	bbloom	yogthos: cringe there's that meaningless word again: REST.
17:35	yogthos	I just kinda take it to mean using http methods and urls for routing
17:35	yogthos	in that context it's kind of a useful distinction from simply using http as a pipe and having your own separate protocol on top of it
17:36	gtrak	end-result: wrap-request-binding: https://gist.github.com/4383596
17:36	Hodapp	bbloom: REST originally meant plenty, though that doesn't mean any modern usage respects that :-/
17:36	joevandyk	for a small amount of work that i do, i need to make a some basic CRUD forms, where 80% is operating on a single table at a time. Best library for that sort of thing?
17:36	yogthos	indeed
17:37	bbloom	joevandyk: rails.
17:37	bbloom	:-P
17:37	zilti	,(= (true? nil) (false? nil)) ; Isn't that weird?
17:37	yogthos	joevandyk: shameless plug :P http://luminus.herokuapp.com/ :P
17:38	zilti	&(= (true? nil) (false? nil))
17:38	yogthos	it's basically a compojure template with some utility libs that will build into something deployable
17:38	yogthos	for actual db access I'd recommend https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc
17:39	joevandyk	yogthos: i've been looking at that. would be super nice to have a library that integrates bootstrap into it. it's probably pretty simple, but would be nice to have!
17:39	yogthos	yeah it's very much work in progress :)
17:39	yogthos	I'm planning on adding bootstrap and jquery in as defaults
17:40	yogthos	I figured I'll release something usable to start and then see what seems to be missing once it gets some usage :)
17:41	joevandyk	one of the more annoying problems i've ran into that activerecord neatly supports is nested forms (via the accts_nested_attributes_for method, see http://railscasts.com/episodes/196-nested-model-form-part-1?view=asciicast for details).
17:42	joevandyk	i don't think i've seen a library that does that stuff outside of activerecord
17:42	zilti	Is there a reason that nil is neither false nor true? I thought it's a Lisp convention that (= nil false).
17:42	joevandyk	accepts_nested_attributes, i mean
17:43	gtrak	zilti: nil is 'falsy', it's not equal to false
17:44	gtrak	,[(if nil true false) (nil? false) (boolean nil) (boolean false)]
17:44	gtrak	&[(if nil true false) (nil? false) (boolean nil) (boolean false)]
17:44	bbloom	lazy bots.
17:44	Hodapp	is 'falsy' like 'truthy' as in 'truthiness'?
17:44	bbloom	anyway, this is a case for.... juxt!!!
17:45	zilti	Someone killed the bots! They're still warm! Quick, the murder's probably still in this room!
17:45	gtrak	the answer's [false false false false]
17:45	bbloom	,((juxt false? boolean) nil)
17:45	gtrak	Hodapp: yes, anything is truthy except false and nil
17:45	bbloom	(map (juxt true? false? boolean) [false true nil]) ;=> ([false true false] [true false true] [false false false])
17:46	zilti	bbloom: => [false false]
17:46	gtrak	even ##(Boolean. false) is truthy
17:46	bbloom	gtrak: grumble grumble java
17:46	mpan	clojure doesn't use java boxed booleans?
17:47	gtrak	it does... but it doesn't do an extra check for the pathological case
17:47	joevandyk	best xml processing library in clojure?
17:47	zilti	How do I check for truthyness/falsyness?
17:47	mpan	gtrak, huh?
17:47	bbloom	(doc boolean)
17:47	Anderkent	zilti: either (boolean <sth>) or just put it in your if
17:47	gtrak	mpan: nothing's supposed to call the Boolean constructor
17:47	gtrak	unfortunately, it happens
17:48	mpan	seems ##(= false (Boolean. false)) is fine though
17:48	mpan	where does the problem happen?
17:49	gtrak	I guess in 'if'
17:49	bbloom	mpan: = is polymorphic
17:49	mpan	eek
17:49	mpan	ok ##(if (Boolean. false) 1 0) isn't giving the answer I wished it would
17:49	joevandyk	https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http is the best way for interacting with http?
17:49	bbloom	identical? isn't
17:49	arrdem	what do :strs ad :syms do in destructuring?
17:50	bbloom	polymorphism isn't free, so identical? is used where possible
17:50	arrdem	joevandyk: it works nicely, that much I can say
17:50	bbloom	and ##identical? false (Boolean. false))
17:50	bbloom	(identical? false (Boolean. false)) ;=> false
17:51	gtrak	arrdem: it's to specify what kinds of keys you have, generally I stick to keywords or convert beforehand, so I always use :keys
17:51	mpan	does this happen outside of creating Booleans?
17:51	joevandyk	the latest stable release is 1.4? no point releases?
17:51	bbloom	if-tests are evaluated as if by the java: x != null && x != Boolean.FALSE
17:51	bbloom	and == and != are not polymorphic like .equals in java
17:52	bbloom	otherwise, every if statement would be mega slow w/o type hinting :-/
17:52	gtrak	ah, I guess it would be terribly slow to abstract over if minus the null-check
17:52	arrdem	gtrak: I've been using :keys blindly for some months now and just discovered the {symbol :key} syntax. I assume that :strs is the same idea of [sym key]?
17:52	gtrak	arrdem: unrelated
17:52	callen	technomancy: fair.
17:52	mpan	ah thanks for the explanation
17:52	gtrak	{sym :key} could also be {sym 'sym2}
17:53	arrdem	right as 'sym2 is a valid key
17:53	callen	pjstadig: hrm. hrm. yes.
17:53	callen	pjstadig: I'll try it.
17:53	gtrak	symbols are just objects, the difference is in how they're eval'd
17:55	joevandyk	is there a recommended style-checker for clojure?
17:55	bbloom	joevandyk: https://github.com/jonase/kibit/ can do some form-level checking for you
17:55	bbloom	but it's rule set is relatively limited currently
17:56	bbloom	there are no popular source text level tools that i know of
17:57	callen	pjstadig: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: sql/get-connection in this context, compiling:(migratus/database.clj:162)
17:57	joevandyk	(:cookies (client/get "http://google.com")) ===> {"NID" {:domain ".google.com", :expires #inst "2013-06-27T22:48:02.000-00:00"….
17:57	joevandyk	what's the #inst?
17:58	callen	pjstadig: (#'sql/get-connection (:db config))
17:58	callen	pjstadig: inside (begin [this]
17:58	bbloom	joevandyk: https://github.com/edn-format/edn#tagged-elements
17:59	callen	technomancy: you're a fan of interactive programming as much as I am, is there a live debugger I can trip in arbitrary Clojure code to create a REPL that can step/next etc?
17:59	joevandyk	bbloom: so it's kind of a type indicator?
18:00	bbloom	joevandyk: tag != type
18:00	bbloom	types imply implementation, behavior, protocols, etc
18:00	bbloom	tags are just a value that can be used to guide interpretation
18:01	bbloom	what is the type of '(+ 2 2) is it integer? or is it a list? or is it an addition expression?
18:02	arrdem	,(type '(+ 2 2))
18:02	AimHere	,(type '(+ 2 2))
18:02	bbloom	arrdem: of course.
18:02	bbloom	but i'm saying it actually depends on the context
18:02	bbloom	tagged values are values and some information about how to interpret that value
18:02	bbloom	they don't necessarily imply type
18:02	bbloom	#inst can be a java.Date or a joda.Instant
18:03	bbloom	it's up to you to interpret it
18:03	callen	technomancy: I guess swank.core/break
18:03	arrdem	bbloom: sorry. my inner wise-ass spoke.
18:03	bbloom	arrdem: i don't mind. the whole tag vs type this was a pretty big epiphany i had when playing with Mathematica
18:03	bbloom	it's worth understanding :-)
18:08	joevandyk	so i made a new lein project with `lein new app rooster_shipment_tracker`. using latest lein. haven't changed anything. tests are failing with "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: namespace 'rooster_shipment_tracker.core' not found after loading '/rooster_shipment_tracker/core'"
18:08	joevandyk	code at https://github.com/joevandyk/rooster_shipping_tracker
18:08	bbloom	joevandyk: latest lein == lein 2?
18:08	joevandyk	bbloom: yes
18:09	arrdem	bbloom: ah so the "tag" is really just a quoted symbol being the name of a function f defining (eval) of the following expression
18:10	bbloom	arrdem: in the context of clojure code, yes
18:10	bbloom	tags are meaningless without context
18:10	bbloom	in fact, all symbolic anything are meaningless without context
18:10	dnolen	core.logic gets deep constraints, http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/commit/a48f6450f20b90a46be3b8eb7d3f110404325206
18:10	bbloom	and languages offer us inherent context. we can all agree: we're communicating with a base context: version 1.X of clojure, etc
18:11	edlothiol	joevandyk: the ns declaration says shipment, the directory name is shipping (did you change one of them?)
18:11	arrdem	bbloom: right. I only knew tags from Lisp machine tag bits... which were really hardware types.
18:11	joevandyk	edlothiol: yeah, the git repo should be rooster_shipment_tracker
18:11	joevandyk	but i don't think that would matter
18:11	joevandyk	it's checked out on my machine as rooster_shipment_tracker
18:12	jkkramer	joevandyk: https://github.com/joevandyk/rooster_shipping_tracker/blob/master/test/rooster_shipment_tracker/core_test.clj#L3 - looks like the lein template didn't convert underscores to dashes
18:12	joevandyk	should it have?
18:12	jkkramer	yes
18:12	jkkramer	on that line
18:13	jkkramer	filenames use underscores, namespaces use dashes
18:13	bbloom	joevandyk: hmmm bug? report that to technomancy or the other folks in #leiningen ?
18:13	joevandyk	i'll do that
18:13	arrdem	look and see if it's a Lein bug or just your template tho...
18:14	zilti	I'm a bit worried. I've got some code here I wrote I don't dare touching.
18:15	jkkramer	maybe offer it some incense and gentle chanting?
18:15	zilti	That could break it.
18:16	arrdem	zilti: that's some awful fragile code there
18:17	jkkramer	maybe it will spontaneously improve if you stop looking at it
18:18	zilti	I highly doubt that. And it does something wrong. And I just fixed that, but it didn't have any effect... Oh well.
18:27	zilti	How awful is that? I've got an if-clause (if reversed? ...) which no matter if reversed is true or false always evaluates the true-expression.
18:30	joevandyk	https://github.com/clojure/data.xml a decent way to process xml?
18:31	joevandyk	is there a way to get vim-style keybindings in the repl?
18:37	jkkramer	joevandyk: data.xml has worked quite well for my purposes. I believe it has limitations wrt xml namespaces
18:43	TimMc	zilti: Time to go back to your axioms, eh?
18:44	zilti	TimMc: Which axioms?
18:45	zilti	I think I broke "if".
18:46	TimMc	zilti: You almost certainly haven't broken "if", which means one of your assumptions or inferences is wrong.
18:47	TimMc	Debugging by iterative fallback to broader and broader assumptions.
18:47	TimMc	...from "do I have a typo" to "did I save the file on the right machine".
18:48	zilti	TimMc: I have a variable "reversed?" which is set to either true or false. Simply said, I have this now:
18:48	TimMc	What happens if you put "false" in there?
18:49	zilti	(println reversed?) (if reversed? (println "if said true, actual: " reversed?) (println "if said false, actual: " reversed?))
18:49	joevandyk	Hm, getting this error when using data.xml: "createXMLStreamReader for class com.sun.xml.internal.stream.XMLInputFactoryImpl"
18:49	zilti	If always says "true". If I replace it with (if (= true reversed)) or (if (true? reversed)) if always says "false".
18:50	joevandyk	only in repl
18:50	joevandyk	maybe i need to restart
18:50	zilti	If I replace it by (if true) it says false.
18:51	zilti	...now it always says true. luckily.
18:51	TimMc	zilti: What about (boolean reversed?)
18:51	TimMc	Put that in the if statement.
18:52	joevandyk	odd, i only get that error in the repl. all i'm doing is calling this function: (defn parse [xml] (xml/parse xml))
18:52	TimMc	zilti: I'm voting for you having (Boolean. false) in there somewhere.
18:52	zilti	TimMc: Always gives true
18:52	jkkramer	joevandyk: if you're trying to parse a string, you need to use (java.io.StringReader. "<foo>bar</foo>")
18:53	joevandyk	ah, right
18:53	jkkramer	joevandyk: otherwise it assumes a file path
18:53	zilti	I never used (Boolean. false) in my whole life, not even when I was still programming Java
18:53	joevandyk	why, btw?
18:53	joevandyk	oh
18:53	joevandyk	ick
18:53	jkkramer	it probably piggybacks clojure.java.io, which does a similar thing
18:54	TimMc	?
18:54	TimMc	nvm
18:55	TimMc	zilti: Did you try (if false ...)?
18:56	zilti	TimMc: Yes.
18:56	joevandyk	if I have (fn1 (fn2 (fn3 arg))), do i use the comp function to simplify that?
18:57	TimMc	joevandyk: You could. There's also the stitching macros: -> ->>
18:57	callen	TimMc: winchester.
18:57	TimMc	(-> arg fn3 fn2 fn1), ((comp fn3 fn2 fn1) arg)
18:58	zilti	TimMc: Oh goddammit the variable was in a list...
18:58	TimMc	?
18:59	joevandyk	awesome. lots of neat stuff in here. so much to learn!
18:59	TimMc	(list reversed?)
18:59	TimMc	zilti: My next question was going to be (println (class reversed?))
18:59	zilti	TimMc: exactly. Because it's an optional argument that I just appended as "& reversed?"
18:59	joevandyk	is there a preferred format? (println (parse (fetch url))) vs (-> url fetch parse println)
19:23	abaranosky	joevandyk: not sure if there's a community standard but I'd usually go with the latter.
19:46	hyPiRion	Go with the most readable one
20:46	gfredericks	when I've submitted a patch and feedback is given, is it expected that I make a new patch with just the feedback material, or a new patch with everything?
20:47	bbloom	clojure committers tend to prefer squashed patches
20:48	bbloom	i usually go with something like CLJ-1234-v002.patch
20:48	bbloom	use `git rebase -i`
20:50	gfredericks	coothx
20:51	hyPiRion	gfredericks: What issue is it?
20:53	gfredericks	CLJ-1121
20:53	hyPiRion	&'foo
20:53	hyPiRion	Oh, that one
20:58	bbloom	gfredericks: pardon my for snooping, but is reduce available at that point in core.clj ?
20:58	gfredericks	I believe it isn't
20:58	bbloom	hm ok
20:58	gfredericks	or else it's not usable for some more subtle reason
20:59	gfredericks	but I definitely tried that first :)
20:59	bbloom	:-)
20:59	bbloom	reading core makes me cringe sometimes until i remember that stuff may or may not have been defined yet, so it's better to do it the dumbest way that works
20:59	hyPiRion	heh
21:00	amalloy	gfredericks: they prefer you make a new patch file with all changes, but i think whether it's squashed or a two-commit patch is up to you
21:00	hyPiRion	They will probably squash it anyway though.
21:00	amalloy	i don't see why. afaik it just gets applied with git am
21:01	bbloom	amalloy: i think it more depends on the committer :-)
21:01	bbloom	dnolen has been pretty strict about squashed commits on cljs
21:02	hyPiRion	Sure? I'm not sure who was talking about it, but they considered squashing doc changes at some point.
21:17	tomoj	two patches :/
21:17	bbloom	no
21:17	bbloom	use git format-patch refspec --stdout > CLJ-123-v001.patch
21:17	bbloom	where refspec is any old normal git ref spec, including ranges
21:17	bbloom	so for example:
21:18	bbloom	head~2..
21:18	bbloom	git format-patch head~2.. --stdout
21:18	bbloom	will make a patch with the two most recent commits on the current branch
21:18	tomoj	hmm, two patches, one file?
21:18	bbloom	tomoj: yes, git formatted patches support that
21:18	hyPiRion	yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they're just catted
21:20	bbloom	tpope: i've basically committed cpap to muscle memory over cpp, dunno if that's still up for debate or not :-P
21:21	gfredericks	bbloom: cool, thanks
22:25	SegFaultAX	Does paredit have something that can shift a sublist left or right in its container? Like (aaa (bbb ccc) ddd) -> ((bbb ccc) aaa ddd)
22:25	SegFaultAX	Sorry, paredit.vim
22:31	callen	SegFaultAX: nothing to contribute, would just like to say that I still don't understand paredit users :)
22:31	hyPiRion	~paredit
22:32	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: Don't think so.
22:33	hyPiRion	http://emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet is the cheatsheet, and I don't think any of them has it
22:35	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Thanks.
22:35	SegFaultAX	callen: Why?
22:37	callen	SegFaultAX: brittle, requires a lot of jousting with your text editor
22:37	callen	SegFaultAX: OTOH, that a vim user would find such an arrangement acceptable is no surprise (bwahahahaha)
22:37	SegFaultAX	callen: What's your editor of choice?
22:38	SegFaultAX	callen: And for the record, I'm new to paredit. Still trying to get a feel for it to see if it's something I should integrate into my existing muscle memory.
22:39	callen	SegFaultAX: I use what 70% of Clojure users use. I actually technically use vim as well here and there, but just for occasional quick-dives.
22:40	SegFaultAX	You're an emacs user? That doesn't use paredit?
22:40	callen	SegFaultAX: no, I don't use paredit.
22:40	callen	SegFaultAX: it's the bondage-and-discipline of text editing.
22:40	SegFaultAX	callen: Haha. I'm not sure I fully understand your dislike for paredit.
22:41	callen	SegFaultAX: I'm an ex common lisper, I thought it was ridiculous back then too.
22:41	Rich_Morin	callen: have you tried VIMClojure?
22:41	SegFaultAX	Being a CLer is like being a marine. There is no such thing as an "Ex-Marine", simply a "Former Marine". :D
22:41	callen	SegFaultAX: you've got a point there.
22:42	callen	Rich_Morin: I'm highly unlikely to. I've used Emacs and vim both enough to know where I'm more productive.
22:42	SegFaultAX	callen: No matter what language you're using, you're still using CL at heart. Greenspuns 10th and all that.
22:42	callen	SegFaultAX: careful with that talk of the good old days, or I might start writing reader macros for SQL.
22:44	callen	Rich_Morin: in the end, unless you're spending a considerable amount of time doing bulk amounts of editing of one or two files, vim optimizes for the wrong things.
22:44	hyPiRion	Oh lord, I made clojure dispatch macros in CL the other day
22:44	SegFaultAX	callen: But generally, what's wrong with making your editor aware of the structure of your language?
22:44	hyPiRion	Now I only need to make the data structures and make them behave properly
22:44	callen	SegFaultAX: nothing, I just don't like the way paredit works.
22:45	SegFaultAX	callen: Anything in particular?
22:45	callen	SegFaultAX: everything? it defaults to very restrictive circumscription of how your editor works.
22:45	callen	SegFaultAX: it's irreconciliable with how I work.
22:46	SegFaultAX	callen: Well, I can see you're determined to be vague. Thank you for your thoughts. :D
22:47	callen	SegFaultAX: I don't know how else to explain it, forces your edit motions and traversal motions to be along the lines of how it structures the text
22:47	callen	SegFaultAX: any attempt to break from that mold or otherwise make editorial "broad strokes" gets blocked by its nagging insistence on keeping to the parens.
22:51	callen	does anybody here know how to access a non-public var in another namespace?
22:51	gfredericks	#'foo.bar/baz
22:51	callen	I need to hack up some code to pierce the veil.
22:51	callen	gfredericks: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: clojure.java.jdbc/get-connection in this context
22:51	callen	https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L151
22:52	gfredericks	callen: you're sure you're on the same version as the github code?
22:53	callen	god I hope so.
22:53	callen	I'll check momentarily, I've been raping and pillaging the jars in my ~/.m2
22:54	callen	gfredericks: I get your meaning. #' really should've worked.
22:54	bbloom	i'm watching this talk: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2012/Reflection-and-Compilers
22:54	bbloom	Odersky is clearly a very smart dude
22:55	bbloom	but man, Hickey's talks are so much more enlightening...
22:55	callen	gfredericks: do you know how to check what version of a library leiningen is using that I'm not necessarily defining myself?
22:55	callen	bbloom: Odersky I see as being like Stroustrup. An integrator and peace-maker, but not much sense with regards to design.
22:56	callen	nobody who has any design sense lets Scala's syntax get the way it did.
22:56	Raynes	callen: oooooh, burn
22:56	callen	and I say this as someone who likes Scala, in a hypothetical alternate universe.
22:56	bbloom	i've said it before, ill say it again: Scala is Java++
22:56	callen	incidentally, Stroustrup made C++
22:56	callen	so theres you goes.
22:58	gfredericks	lein still hates the idea of "running a clojure file", right? as in, without a project?
22:58	Raynes	Yes.
22:59	mpan	is there a nicer way than (read-file) from lein-repl for that need?
22:59	Rich_Morin	Hickey is awesome (and I don't use that word lightly), but there are places where I long for Matz's taste in language design.
22:59	gfredericks	mpan: the clojure.main class can run files
22:59	callen	Raynes: yes, some people like Ruby.
22:59	mpan	ah thanks
23:00	bbloom	Rich_Morin: matz has good taste in the absence of self control: "include everything! but make it not suck"
23:00	bbloom	scala says "include everything! make it statically typed!"
23:00	callen	I still say the finishing touch Ruby has always needed was a COME FROM statement.
23:00	gfredericks	man you couldn't even write a lein plugin to do that could you
23:00	mpan	callen: what would that do, though?
23:00	Raynes	callen: Yes, some people state the obvious.
23:00	callen	mpan: reverse of goto.
23:01	callen	mpan: label: blah
23:01	callen	mpan: COME FROM label;
23:01	gfredericks	ruby needed...refinements?
23:01	mpan	as in, unconditionally?
23:01	devn	in some ways I think matz did something that was accidentally brilliant: He said yes so often that now it seems the serious maintainers of Ruby are stepping in to say no when appropriate
23:01	callen	mpan: as conditionally as your gotos.
23:01	bbloom	steve yeggie had that post about clojure needing to say "yes"
23:01	bbloom	im quite glad rich said "no"
23:01	devn	please don't go there lol
23:02	callen	yegge is a flake anyway.
23:02	gfredericks	callen: so if you COME FROM label in two different places is that a fork of some kind?
23:02	devn	steve yegge is full of sour grapes
23:02	Rich_Morin	Yes, there is a small fracas going on in the Ruby community. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BagNfTbXn3w
23:02	mpan	what happened to yegge? I used to play this game he made and then one day it just disappeared
23:02	mpan	and a few years later I learned his name was yegge (and not just rhialto)
23:02	callen	gfredericks: let me consult my INTERCAL manual, h/o
23:02	bbloom	yegge has written a bunch of good (and a bunch of bad) articles tho
23:03	bbloom	it's obvious that he realizes some smart things, but has a hard time distilling them, hence the absurdly long posts
23:03	bbloom	but i can't point fingers, since i often write long posts too
23:03	bbloom	(but not that long)
23:04	bbloom	for example http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/10/universal-design-pattern.html is worth reading 35% of it
23:04	Rich_Morin	Something like refinements could be very useful in shared Ruby environments (eg, SketchUp plugins), but I defer to the Ruby implementors as to when and how to add them.
23:04	bbloom	but the 35% that is worthwhile is scattered throughout the whole post
23:04	callen	gfredericks: I am downloading an interpreter that supports comefrom to test my hypothesis.
23:04	mpan	callen: that sounds like a nightmare for the compiler/interpreter
23:04	callen	gfredericks: okay yeah, it's implementation specific
23:05	wastrel	p/qin 19
23:05	callen	it can defined invalid, exhibit non-deterministic behavior, or execute on parallel/concurrent threads.
23:05	callen	gfredericks: so it's really up to the implementor.
23:05	devn	anyone here have an opinion on migration libraries for clojure?
23:06	callen	devn: dude.
23:06	gfredericks	callen: that sounds like it would fit in ruby pretty well then
23:06	devn	I see drift and ragtime -- are there others I should pay attention to?
23:06	devn	callen: dude
23:06	callen	devn: the last third of my soul that drained down my bathtub was due to migration libraries.
23:06	callen	devn: I...am your weary soul for this one.
23:06	gfredericks	my migration library is a pile of three functions that technomancy gave me
23:06	callen	I was battling this just 24 hours ago.
23:06	devn	callen: as in, migration libraries in general?
23:06	callen	devn: yes.
23:06	callen	devn: I've tried several now.
23:07	devn	callen: what sucked?
23:07	callen	I have strong opinions, weakly referenced and rapidly deallocated.
23:07	mpan	I'm curious, what are you migrating?
23:07	devn	what was good about what you tried?
23:07	devn	mpan: a database :)
23:07	callen	devn: ragtime's refusal to express an opinion of any sort sucked. It reminded me of Tom Sawyer.
23:08	devn	heh
23:08	devn	callen: and drift?
23:08	callen	devn: migratus is closest to what I wanted, being vanilla SQL files, able to be migrated independently/individually but has some serious issues with lein2 for me.
23:08	callen	devn: lobos generally just works but uses a bumfucked retarded DSL for the migration statements. Seems to be imitating Rails in more form and less function.
23:09	callen	devn: Drift is a hybrid of ragtime and lobos. I'm not very happy with the global migration version counter thingy.
23:09	devn	i tried lobos and I didn't like it.
23:09	devn	callen: so... let's write a better one?
23:10	devn	or fix migratus?
23:10	callen	yeah uh, kinda working on the fix migratus thing
23:10	callen	I'm debugging what seems to be an invalid reference to a private var in jdbc.
23:11	callen	devn: pjstadig has been helpful and communicative as of yesterday (he made migratus, Sonian uses it), but there are more fixes to be made beyond his initial attempts at a 0.6.0-SNAPSHOT lein2 version.
23:11	callen	that or I'm retarded. Equally plausible.
23:12	devn	pjstadig is helpful and communicative all the time
23:12	devn	just sayin'
23:13	Frozenlock	Is `fetch' the commonly used library for client/server clj/cljs interaction?
23:14	Frozenlock	https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch
23:14	callen	devn: I was highlighting my lack of experience, not making a statement about him.
23:14	callen	my lack of experience with him that is.
23:14	devn	callen: nono, wasn't trying to correct you, was just making a positive statement in general about him
23:14	callen	Frozenlock: I don't know if common is the word.
23:15	callen	Frozenlock: there's a lot of room for idioms to be defined for frontend/backend interaction in the Clojure/CLJS world right now.
23:15	callen	devn: anyway, I am in general fond of migratus and if I wrote my own lib, it'd just end up being a fixed up migratus anyway.
23:15	callen	devn: I just need uh, it to work.
23:15	devn	callen: heh
23:15	devn	that's usually good with migration libs
23:16	Frozenlock	I see. Well, is there other libraries? I would like to compare.
23:16	callen	devn: use lein2 and [migratus "0.6.0-SNAPSHOT"], [migratus-lein "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"] to join the fun.
23:16	callen	Frozenlock: it's not "libraries", it just that the alternative is usually doing your own AJAX back-n-forth.
23:16	callen	or websockets. whatever the cool kids use.
23:17	xeqi	Frozenlock: theres https://github.com/shoreleave/shoreleave-remote-ring
23:18	devn	https://github.com/thegeez/clj-browserchannel
23:18	devn	^-I've used that and I liked it, but it is kind of a pain to get set up.
23:19	devn	see: https://github.com/thegeez/clj-browserchannel-demo
23:19	Frozenlock	Thank you very much!
23:20	devn	also this Frozenlock: http://thegeez.net/2012/04/03/why_browserchannel.html
23:20	callen	gfredericks: the problem is the jdbc version, something wacky is happening here.
23:21	devn	gah! I wish lein-pedantic would shut up when I'm in a hurry
23:21	devn	`lein deps --no-pedantry`
23:23	callen	devn: has it ever saved you any trouble?
23:24	devn	callen: it makes me sleep a bit easier I guess, but prior to using it I don't think I ever ran into an issue
23:24	devn	so, uh... comments out lein-pedantic
23:25	callen	devn: I avoid lein-pedantic because it reminds me of cabal.
23:25	callen	devn: then I break out into hives, the walls start bleeding, and people die.
23:25	xeqi	devn: haha, use ":pedantic :warn" in the project.clj
23:26	mpan	anyone have particular recommendations for guides/tutorials on starting out in clojurescript?
23:26	callen	SON OF A BITCH
23:26	callen	HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHA
23:26	callen	devn: I got migratus to work, FOR SIE FIRST TIME
23:27	mpan	callen: you sound quite happy, so congratulations
23:28	Raynes	callen: I fear you might be an alcoholic.
23:28	callen	mpan: Through fire and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought these damn migration libraries. Until the last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
23:29	callen	Raynes: what's to fear?
23:29	mpan	callen: I know that feeling of fighting one's own tools
23:30	callen	I've got to be winning some curse words per commit message rankings.
23:31	mpan	who are these meant for? self? friends? coworkers?
23:34	callen	mpan: the universe.
23:55	juldre	Hi all, getting started on clojure here. I have a CounterClockWise + Noir development question: what is the best way of quickly restarting the server to test small changes in code?
23:56	juldre	when working in pure Java, eclipse reloads the context automatically, is that possible with counter clock wise? if not, whats the next best thing ?