#clojure – 2012-12-10

2012-12-10

00:03	tomoj	is one called "one" to taunt people who only want _one_ piece of it?
00:11	tomoj	I guess the plan is for those pieces to graduate to libraries eventually
00:14	seangrove	I thought of it as a PoC right now
00:14	seangrove	It's a bit large, was definitely difficult for me to wrap my head around when I was getting started with cljs
00:15	seangrove	But maybe that's my fault for thinking it'd be a good way of starting
00:15	tomoj	isn't that exactly what it's supposed to be?
00:16	tomoj	I wonder why one.test hasn't been broken out
00:16	tomoj	would feel weird copying it and releasing it, but neither do I really want to copy it into every one of my projects
00:19	muhoo	private repo then?
00:20	tomoj	good idea for now, but I want to release my library too :)
00:21	muhoo	oh, well, hmm. there's nothing wrong with ripping guts out of an open source project and forking it as a separate thing, it is open source. maybe ask the one people if they'd accept a patch to split it up tho?
00:21	muhoo	who knows, they may have been waiting for someone to volunteer to do it.
00:35	michaelr`	good morning
01:48	tomoj	wonder how the ring spec would look for ajax
01:49	tomoj	seems to make sense for :server-port, :server-name, and :scheme to be optional
01:49	tomoj	and maybe for :uri to be possibly relative?
01:53	tomoj	but if you supply :server-name and a relative :uri..
01:54	tomoj	on the other hand, if you require :uri to be absolute, and, like clj-http, have a middleware that accepts a :url, it would be rather odd for :url to be a uri
01:59	nightfly_	Are the protected/private java access modifiers respected while doing Java interop?
01:59	tomoj	yes
02:05	Lajjla	THEY'RE MAD
02:05	Lajjla	MAD I TELL YOU
02:05	Lajjla	I was at #wordpress-dev
02:05	Lajjla	THEY'RE MAD
02:06	Lajjla	They consider echo '<h3>' . $title . '</h3>'; good coding practce
02:06	Lajjla	MADNESS
02:06	Lajjla	They thought the established way of something like $page->addElement('h' . $page->currentLevel, $page->title); was bad
02:07	Lajjla	MADNESS I SAY
02:21	p_l	Lajjla: welcome to PHP world
02:22	p_l	though your established practice looks bad as well. Again, welcome to PHP :P
02:26	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/dispatch-map :-)
02:38	seangrove	Well, hard to argue with their success
02:39	nightfly_	tomoj: Thanks. Of course I was hoping they wouldn't be in this instance, but for the greater good...
02:39	seangrove	bbloom: No idea what this is for, but curious
02:39	bbloom	seangrove: i'll probably write a blog post to motivate it
02:40	bbloom	so basically, i'm working on some GUI experiments and i have a scene graph -like tree structure
02:41	Lajjla	p_l, they were like
02:41	Lajjla	THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE ME
02:41	Lajjla	WHEN SAID
02:41	bbloom	and i wanted to be able to have a sort of list-view thing that renders a template for each element in the list, but the template dispatch was a simple map of class -> template
02:41	Lajjla	THAT PHP IS A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL LANGUAGE WHICH DIVIATES FROM A LOT OF STANDARDS
02:41	bbloom	templates aren't functions, they are data structures
02:41	Lajjla	And that it's known to be very bad at identifying bugs for you.
02:41	Lajjla	HOW CAN THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY CODE A WORKING CMS
02:42	Lajjla	I must go to the source and inspect
02:42	seangrove	Ah, I see
02:42	bbloom	seangrove: i wanted a map that would let me render the "best" template for a datatype
02:42	Lajjla	I raised the issue that if you mistyped a variabvle name in PHP, it didn't bleep and said the variable was not in scope but it created a new one for you with the value set to null.
02:42	Lajjla	They never even considered the fact that it would be better to catch bugs if you made a type error that it then bleeped.
02:42	bbloom	seangrove: it also means you could redefine multi methods in terms of a dispatch-map and an atom
02:43	seangrove	Yeah, that's the inverse of what I was thinking
02:43	seangrove	Where you would dispatch based off of deep keys in a map
02:44	seangrove	Very cool stuff
02:44	bbloom	seangrove: what would that be for?
02:44	seangrove	I also wasn't sure of that, but was just curious ;)
02:45	bbloom	well that's the short version: i wanted to treat a multimethod like data
02:45	bbloom	er, i mean, like a "value"
02:55	SegFaultAX	Man, datomic is pretty pricey for a virtually unproven database.
02:56	bbloom	SegFaultAX: it's pretty cheap (and simple) when compared to a virtually DISproven database: http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/price-lists/index.html :-P
02:56	bbloom	i kid, i kid
03:08	michaelr`	i wonder how excel's grid is stored in memory
03:08	tomoj	SegFaultAX: free to try at least :/
03:09	nightfly_	Slightly related, how useful is datomic's free version in a "production" environment?
03:10	typeclassy	is cljs.core.IFn a protocol in clojurescript? the compiler claims it isn't, but google is only showing me https://gist.github.com/2346866
03:12	typeclassy	plain "IFn" gives a massive gibberish java stack trace
03:16	seangrove	nightfly_: Been using datomic free along with wei_ for Jida (a dideproject), seems reasonably good, haven't run too many problems yet so far
03:16	seangrove	Main problem is that we don't have enough money for a vps to run a transactor
03:17	typeclassy	does datomic free store all of its data on the filesystem?
03:19	wei_	typeclassy: I believe so, yes
03:20	typeclassy	i suppose it doesn't really matter if you're not a gigantic app. hacker news runs off the filesystem as well iirc
03:20	wei_	another problem was that we ran into the max peer limit pretty quickly with one worker and one web server
03:31	bbloom	seangrove: i packed up my motivation in a blog post http://blog.brandonbloom.name/2012/12/clojures-multimethod-dispatch-as-library.html
03:31	bbloom	seangrove: let me know if that makes sense :-)
03:50	andrewmcveigh\|wo	bbloom: I was thinking about something somewhat related to that the other day. I wanted a multimethod where the dispatch value could be a core.match pattern. Didn't have time to try it though.
04:01	tomoj	seangrove: hmm, for what?
04:02	tomoj	oh, I see someone else already asked
04:05	tomoj	I've considered writing multimethods for deep keys for dealing with document-ish maps
04:06	Lajjla	p_l, MADNESS
04:06	Lajjla	MADNESS I SAY
04:42	no7hing	good morning everybody
04:43	no7hing	seems like i have some problems wrapping my head around protocols
04:44	ucb	no7hing: morning! what's up?
04:44	no7hing	i thought i had a nice case for using protocols to abstract the used datastore behind a registry
04:44	no7hing	https://gist.github.com/4249604
04:45	ucb	no7hing: what's wrong with that?
04:45	no7hing	but what was a self-contained service before that could be called like (registry/register 123) now needs the actual instance passed in too
04:46	no7hing	my problem is that i don't know where to put my actual instance
04:46	ucb	how was registry/register defined before?
04:46	no7hing	and if it's really true that i have to implement another layer in front of it to store the actual instance in
04:47	no7hing	just a function in the namespace and f.e. the zookeeper connection as a ref
04:47	ucb	a global ref then?
04:47	no7hing	yes
04:47	no7hing	global in the ns
04:49	ucb	right, so that's where protocols might be an interesting alternative
04:49	ucb	you'd have no global shared anything
04:49	amalloy	no7hing: how could ZKR work without an instance, though? you need to store a connection somewhere, and making it global to your namespace is really unpleasant
04:49	ucb	thanks for putting it succinctly amalloy
04:51	no7hing	then i'am actually not getting a vital part of idiomatic clojure
04:52	no7hing	because i have no idea where i should put my connection other than the namespace that serves as my zookeeper facade
04:53	amalloy	no7hing: if you did that, one of the problems you'd have is that you could never have two different registries in the same program
04:53	no7hing	that's what i actually want
04:54	amalloy	make the person who's calling register and deregister responsible for tracking their registry. they probably have some other larger object that it's convenient to put it into
04:54	no7hing	but isn't that a global var again?
04:54	amalloy	only if you imagine, for whatever reason, that their larger object is global
04:55	no7hing	as this is in the context of a stateful server i need to store state somewhere
04:55	amalloy	(there's nothing disastrously bad about having a global var for this sort of thing, for convenience, but definitely don't tie it in at the lowest level, which would force everyone to use the same model)
04:56	no7hing	the way i built it so far is that the ns store the state they're responsible for
04:57	amalloy	then your whole app is just singletons. you can't ever use a namespace twice
04:58	no7hing	a registry holds a map of registered (=currently online) users either in memory or in ZK, the session store holds the actual user sessions, etc
04:58	no7hing	i think there's a lot of erlang thinking in the way i built my app
04:58	no7hing	my clojure exercise: https://github.com/mhaemmerle/grimoire
04:59	Sgeo\|web_	I need to learn how to stop using global variables
04:59	Sgeo\|web_	Ironic, since I love Haskell and it practically prevents usage of global variables
04:59	amalloy	no7hing: all of that is fine, but the example.registry namespace isn't a registry: it is code for building and using a registry. it shouldn't also be responsible for maintaining a reference to one particular "blessed" instance of a registry
04:59	Sgeo\|web_	(There are tricks around it, but they're noticable and annoying)
05:00	no7hing	ok, so i need another ns to actually implement it - even if it's more or less just doubling the protocol and passing the actual registry instance in
05:00	no7hing	back to the drawing board :)
05:01	no7hing	and thanks a lot for the help!
05:02	amalloy	you're welcome! apologies if i'm overly zealous this late at night: it's bedtime
05:02	no7hing	no apologies needed!
05:02	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
05:03	no7hing	i want to learn it the proper way
06:23	AWizzArd	Is there a list that tells me what Interfaces/Protocols I have to add to my defrecord/deftype, when I want it to do X. For example, I want to be able to deref instances ==> this list would point me to clojure.lang.IDeref. I want to (count it) ==> list would point me to?
06:24	Sgeo\|web_	Reading the source?
06:24	Sgeo\|web_	(source count)
06:24	Sgeo\|web_	,(source count)
06:24	clojurebot	Source not found
06:24	Sgeo\|web_	Although actually, actual documentation would be better
06:24	AWizzArd	Currently I read the sources at https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang
06:25	AWizzArd	I just thought having such a list might save some time.
06:25	Sgeo\|web_	Would also make it less implementation-detail-y
06:26	AWizzArd	Now I really would like to know: what does my deftype have to implement/extend when I want to use count?
06:27	Sgeo\|web_	What time complexity is your count?
06:27	AWizzArd	ISeq?
06:27	AWizzArd	linear
06:27	Sgeo\|web_	Looking at the source, it looks like Counted would work for ... oh, Counted implies O(1) I think
06:27	Sgeo\|web_	Um, I think ISeq would work, but not sure
06:28	Sgeo\|web_	countFrom mentions Collection and IPersistentCollection
06:29	AWizzArd	Sgeo\|web_: thanks, Counted is fine.
06:29	AWizzArd	Works.
06:29	Sgeo\|web_	:/ pretty sure Counted is intended to imply O(1) time complexity
06:29	bbloom	AWizzArd: you shouldn't implement Counted unless you have O(1) counts
06:29	AWizzArd	Yes, I now have o1
06:30	bbloom	,(source counted?)
06:30	clojurebot	Source not found
06:30	bbloom	blah.
06:30	bbloom	(doc counted?)
06:30	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
06:30	bbloom	the source is: [coll] (instance? clojure.lang.Counted coll)
06:30	bbloom	anyway, bed time
06:32	AWizzArd	That other bot maybe supports “source”?
06:33	Sgeo\|web_	&(source counted?)
06:33	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
06:33	Sgeo\|web_	lazybot is Clojailed :( (not relevent, but it's a source of a flaw)
06:34	Sgeo\|web_	,(let [-> inc] (-> 5)) ; ##(let [-> inc] (-> 5)
06:34	clojurebot	6
06:34	Sgeo\|web_	,(let [-> inc] (-> 5)) ; ##(let [-> inc] (-> 5))
06:34	lazybot	⇒ 5
06:34	clojurebot	6
07:23	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
07:24	ucb	hello hubert :)
07:27	ivaraasen	considering buying a ThinkPad T430. does anyone here own one?
07:32	hcumberdale	ivaraasen: Thought about it. But at the moment I consider the Samsung S9 and Apple Mac Book.
07:34	ivaraasen	hcumberdale: definitely considering the S9.
07:35	hcumberdale	It's only 4GB ram on board. FEB 2013 are the new release dates.
07:35	hcumberdale	So I think there will be 8GB+ and the new WQHD display.
07:36	ivaraasen	thing is, a T430 over here (with IPS and a 180 GB SSD) is the same price as a low-end MacBook Air, given that I buy an extra two years of guarantee for the latter. (the T430 comes with a three year guarantee)
07:37	hcumberdale	ivaraasen: yes. Gurantee @Apple is bad
07:37	hcumberdale	remebering the defect displays...
07:37	ivaraasen	and defective logic boards in my case
07:37	ivaraasen	like, three times
07:37	hcumberdale	Nealy everyone was affected. Display inverter must be replaced in all old mac books
07:37	ivaraasen	and two dead power supplies, because they break so easily
07:37	hcumberdale	here too ;)
07:38	ivaraasen	almost blew my speakers due to the logic board problems
07:38	hcumberdale	Have a TP X300
07:38	hcumberdale	That notebook is years old but super awesome.
07:38	ivaraasen	how are ThinkPad power supplies? way sturdier?
07:38	hcumberdale	nearly indistructible
07:39	hcumberdale	But,... the real "ThinkPad" is gone ;(
07:39	ivaraasen	nice. small detail, but it's really important for me as a journalist.
07:39	hcumberdale	The new keyboards are horrible, thx to background leds
07:39	ivaraasen	which is why I'm going with a matt screen as well
07:40	hcumberdale	me2 I really dislike the "mirrored" screens ;)
07:40	hcumberdale	My experience: The X series are robust and good
07:41	hcumberdale	A lot T series (@ my company) broke after ~2 years.
07:41	hcumberdale	Defect screen, only power-on with power supply
07:41	hcumberdale	They tried to fix it two times. Errors occured again
07:41	hcumberdale	The new keyboards are horrible
07:42	hcumberdale	The X1 has a different power adapter. I thought everybody is buying thinkpads because there is everywhere power for it ;)
07:42	ivaraasen	hcumberdale: regular or IPS screen?
07:43	hcumberdale	regardless of technology it should be non-reflecting and ~400nit
07:44	ivaraasen	I'm guess I'm not going to worry that much with a three year guarantee, at least.
07:44	hcumberdale	traveling with notebooks <350nit and reflecting screen is the worst ;(
07:44	hcumberdale	Yes, one year is pretty bad @Apple
07:45	hcumberdale	2 Years for the S9 is okay
07:45	hcumberdale	The S9 power jack is really bad designed ;( And the 4GB ram... Will wait to FEB
07:45	hcumberdale	until FEB 2013
07:46	mpenet	2x8g ram = $80 for T4**
07:46	ivaraasen	I'm probably upgrading to 8 GB myself. I only have 2 GB on this poor old Unibody
07:46	mpenet	you can upgrade it yourself, something not possible with apple laptops I think
07:46	hcumberdale	ivaraasen: the S9 mem is onboard. If you are familiar with reflow soldering it's possible I think ;)
07:47	hcumberdale	mpenet: not possible for apple & samsung
07:50	ivaraasen	hcumberdale: when I solder things myself, angels cry
07:54	hcumberdale	ivaraasen: the odds are 1:100 that it'll work
07:55	hcumberdale	multilayer board
07:55	PGGB	anyone here using set with clojure?
07:56	PGGB	*swt
07:56	mpenet	~anyone
07:56	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
07:56	mpenet	:(
07:57	hcumberdale	better move over to javascript ;)
07:57	Sgeo\|web	Why do I keep typing analyze as analyse
07:58	mpenet	I make that mistake very often
07:58	clgv	Sgeo: your british side fights your american side? :P
07:58	mpenet	that is how it's written in my first language tho
07:58	Bergle_1	you have been eposed to proper english.. it is 's'
07:59	PGGB	swt is actually quite nice
07:59	PGGB	but it requires functions to run in the main thread
07:59	PGGB	so I can't seem to call them from the repl
08:00	clgv	PGGB: there probably is some "invoke in main thread" function
08:00	Sgeo\|web	I shouldn't have a British side. I have only left the US once in my life, when I was a little kid
08:01	Sgeo\|web	But I'm in an IRC channel with a bunch of Brits, so maybe I should blame them
08:01	Sgeo\|web	"Brits" isn't offensive, is it?
08:01	PGGB	clgv: yeah that'd be nice, haven't found anything thus far
08:01	clgv	Sgeo\|web: seems your subconsciousness has a british side then... ;)
08:02	Sgeo\|web	I do have an intense hatred for doing the American thing with quotes, the whole punctuation on the inside even if you're not quoting the punctuation thing
08:04	clgv	hcumberdale: :O and you are not in #clojure.de ? tsktsktsk
08:04	Sgeo\|web	Hmm
08:05	Sgeo\|web	It doesn't look like it should be too difficult to write a correct macroexpander, if I just look for which part of each special form Compiler.java uses analyze on, and copy that
08:05	Sgeo\|web	How often would that stuff change though
08:06	Sgeo\|web	I'd need to change it with each version of Clojure, potentially, and also have a convenient way to write code that works in several versions
08:06	clgv	PGGB: display.syncExec(new Runnable() ... ); (http://www.eclipse.org/swt/faq.php#uithread)
08:06	Sgeo\|web	Also, what if there's some complication that I'm overlooking?
08:07	hcumberdale	clgv: never heard from it
08:07	clgv	hcumberdale: now you have ;)
08:07	Sgeo\|web	I know that I need to handle &env and special forms which don't macroexpand their arguments
08:07	Sgeo\|web	But I might be forgetting stuff
08:08	hcumberdale	clgv from .de too ?!
08:08	clgv	hcumberdale: yes
08:10	PGGB	clgv: I need to create a display first though
08:11	PGGB	and it still needs the main thread for that
08:11	clgv	PGGB: maybe there is something similar as static method... I have almost zero experience with SWT ;)
08:12	PGGB	hm
08:12	PGGB	it'd be nice if you could lein run with a repl attached
08:12	clgv	PGGB: Display.getDefault().syncExec( ... )
08:13	Sgeo\|web	Looking at the FnExpr parsing code, I don't see any calls to analyze
08:13	Sgeo\|web	wtf
08:17	kmicu	ac 0 set status "Fajka, jajka i Jamajka!"
08:21	kmicu	and muscle memory
09:04	fureddo	Anyone could explain why in case 1 (let [r (range 1e9)] [(first r) (last r)]), it runs ok but in case 2 (let [r (range 1e9)] [(last r) (first r)]), I got a OutOfMemoryException?
09:05	Chousuke	fureddo: in the latter case, the program can't free the elements in the sequence before you run (first r)
09:06	Chousuke	whereas in the first case it'll just throw out each element while realising (last r) since there's no longer anything that needs a reference to r.
09:09	fureddo	Chousuke, I don't get it. :-(
09:11	andrewmcveigh\|wo	fureddo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5698122/explanation-of-lose-your-head-in-lazy-sequences
09:11	kmicu	fureddo: range is lazy
09:11	andrewmcveigh\|wo	fureddo: Maybe that will help?
09:11	kmicu	, (class (range 1e9))
09:11	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
09:12	kmicu	If you'll keep reference to first element, then whole seq must fit into memory.
09:12	kmicu	@google clojure lazy seq
09:15	fureddo	andrewmcveigh\|wo, Interesting link. Thanks.
09:25	cemerick	tpope: I'm around, if you want to nail down this :out and :err issue.
09:25	tpope	cemerick: I've got about 10 minutes, sure
09:26	cemerick	so, you've got a session id from clone, ands still no :out?
09:26	tpope	cemerick: correct
09:26	cemerick	can you replicate in Clojure, or is this solely in vimscript?
09:27	tpope	cemerick: I can replicate in clojure
09:27	cemerick	tpope: please, do paste somewhere
09:28	Sgeo\|web	I seem to actually be singing "a special symbol at the head of a list always means a special form"
09:28	Sgeo\|web	...that's wrong, just realized
09:28	Sgeo\|web	Only when that form is treated as code
09:28	tpope	cemerick: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7470
09:37	cemerick	tpope: OK; what are you seeing as the result of the (client ...) call?
09:39	tpope	cemerick: ({:ns "user", :session "20bd7b37-aa50-4c23-b61b-326976436fc8", :value "nil"} {:session "20bd7b37-aa50-4c23-b61b-326976436fc8", :status ["done"]})
09:40	tpope	so it gets the result but does not capture the output
09:46	cemerick	tpope: Yeah, something's screwy, despite a dozen-plus testcases verifying :err and :out. What if you send {"op" "eval" "code" "(println :foo)"}? (i.e. no sid)
09:46	tpope	cemerick: works fine
09:47	cemerick	yesh
09:47	cemerick	yeah*
09:47	cemerick	that's what I'm seeing too
09:47	cemerick	tpope: on it :-P
10:11	cemerick	tpope: OK, so: I can verify what you're seeing in a REPL, but not when running the same code as part of an automated test.
10:11	cemerick	I need to take off for a while, but will return with a solution this afternoon. :-P
10:18	Sgeo\|school	Should I keep my whining in the comments, or is whining ok in examples?
10:19	Sgeo\|school	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.walk/macroexpand-all#example_1001
10:21	clgv	Sgeo\|school: write a better macroexpand-all ;) just kidding
10:21	Sgeo\|school	I think frenchy64 is doing that
10:22	Sgeo\|school	I should play with it
10:22	clgv	ambrosebs does?
10:23	Sgeo\|school	The analyzer should be usable for that purpose, I think
10:23	clgv	ah ok
10:27	Sgeo\|school	Hah!
10:28	Sgeo\|school	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7471
10:28	Sgeo\|school	I do object to ast being a macro though :(
10:29	Sgeo\|school	Oh, it's just a wrapper around an analyze-form function
10:29	Sgeo\|school	hrm, crud
10:34	Sgeo\|school	Looks like it handles &env properly
10:34	Sgeo\|school	Although I wish it could actually take an &env as input
10:34	Sgeo\|school	ambrosebs thank you thank you!
10:35	Sgeo\|school	@tell ambrosebs THANK YOU
10:35	Sgeo\|school	@mail ambrosebs THANK YOU
10:35	Sgeo\|school	?
10:35	Sgeo\|school	%mail ambrosebs THANK YOU
10:35	nDuff	Sgeo\|school: /msg memoserv send ambrosebs THANK YOU
10:35	Sgeo\|school	$mail ambrosebs THANK YOU
10:35	lazybot	Message saved.
10:35	nDuff	Sgeo\|school: ...or that. :)
10:37	Sgeo\|school	Too lazy to sign in to Freenode, and recipient might not sign into freenode
10:37	scriptor	and $mail is much shorter to type, anyway
10:39	nDuff	Sgeo\|school: I was too lazy to sign into freenode, and then someone stole my preferred nick
10:39	nDuff	Sgeo\|school: ...which is why I'm now nDuff, zDuff or znDuff as opposed to Duff.
10:39	nDuff	...anyhow -- lessons learned.
10:40	Sgeo\|school	I'm registered on Freenode at least
10:40	nDuff	...err, that.
10:40	Sgeo\|school	And usually have XChat sign me in automatically
10:40	Sgeo\|school	But computer being weird
10:42	Sgeo\|school	Does Clojail use a macroexpander?
10:43	AWizzArd	Is there a way how I can implement my own count on a defrecord? Currently when trying to do so I get a ClassFormatError: Duplicate method name&signature in class file
10:44	mdeboard	is there a recommended AWS S3 lib for Clojure? I'm looking at weavejester's repo but it doesn't appear to use connection pooling, so if I need to GET multiple objects, it's going to open a new connection for each (get-item) invocation.
10:48	Sgeo\|school	Hah. Clojail's macroexpand-most is strictly better than macroexpand-all, but it's still wrong
10:51	Sgeo\|school	Would Raynes likely to be willing to depend on analyze?
10:52	mdeboard	weavejester: Any input on connection pooling for multiple GET requests to S3 using your lib?
10:53	Sgeo\|school	,(seq? [1 2 3])
10:53	clojurebot	false
10:53	Sgeo\|school	,(coll? [1 2 3])
10:53	clojurebot	true
10:53	Sgeo\|school	,[-> 1 2]
10:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/->, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:53	Sgeo\|school	&[-> 1 2]
10:53	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/->
10:54	Sgeo\|school	Darn
10:56	Sgeo\|school	,(let [(-> a) 5] a)
10:56	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: (-> a)>
10:56	Sgeo\|school	&(let [(-> a) 5] a)
10:56	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: (-> a)
10:56	Sgeo\|school	&[(-> 5)]
10:56	lazybot	⇒ [5]
11:08	technomancy	gfredericks: it will change your life
11:09	technomancy	I don't know how people get by with git on the command line; it's so awful
11:10	hyPiRion	technomancy: In what way is it better than the git CLI?
11:10	scriptor	it's a bit painful to learn, but after that it starts making sense
11:10	nDuff	...expects the user to put in time and effort to learn abstractions unique to it, rather than following conventions set by other SCMs.
11:10	hyPiRion	I've not looked at magit, so feel free to pitch it.
11:10	ohpauleez	cognitively taxing, mostly. Otherwise pretty solid
11:12	daimrod	hyPiRion: it's easy to browse the log and to do partial commit
11:12	gfredericks	okay. it is loaded. now I need to figure out how to use it.
11:13	daimrod	gfredericks: C-h i m magit RET
11:13	hyPiRion	daimrod: partial commit as in part of a file, or part of files?
11:13	daimrod	part of file
11:14	daimrod	like git add --interactive
11:14	scriptor	equivalent of add -p I'm guessing?
11:14	daimrod	or -p
11:14	daimrod	I don't know
11:14	daimrod	-p
11:15	hyPiRion	Well, I'm not in dire need of that as of right now, but I guess I'll have a look at it later.
11:15	scriptor	that's the only feature I'd like to have editor support for, staging specific lines
11:17	daimrod	hyPiRion: not having to open a terminal (even within emacs) is a big plus for me.
11:20	gfredericks	daimrod: my C-h don't work
11:20	gfredericks	gotta have da backspaces
11:23	chronno	gfredericks: then try f1 i m magit RET
11:24	gfredericks	omg I just made a commit
11:24	TimMc	M-x info I think
11:24	gfredericks	chronno: f1 opens the gnome terminal help; I am forever cut off from emacs help
11:25	chronno	gfredericks: lol, I'm on KDE so never tought of that...
11:31	chronno	gfredericks: Do as TimMc says, M-x info m magit RET
11:31	technomancy	scriptor: magit lets you just select a region and stage it with a single keystroke
11:32	scriptor	hmm, how does it define regions in non-sexpr languages?
11:32	technomancy	scriptor: I mean "the region"
11:32	technomancy	the area between mark and point
11:33	scriptor	ah
11:33	technomancy	a screencast on it: http://vimeo.com/2871241
11:33	daimrod	you can add/revert a file/thunk/region
11:33	technomancy	bit dated but it gets the idea apart
11:35	TimMc	I've been pretty happy with git-gui and gitk.
11:43	TimMc	What benefits does magit provide, other than being part of an editor?
11:44	S11001001	TimMc: does there need to be more of a reason than that?
11:48	TimMc	Yes.
11:49	TimMc	And no. But I'm mostly curious about feature/workflow differences.
11:50	weavejester	mdeboard: Still around?
11:51	gfredericks	technomancy: I decided to switch when I realized that my workflow was A) open a terminal for emacs, use emacs for everything except B) open a terminal for git because eshell sucks for that
11:51	gfredericks	I'm not a git-cli hater. I'm just tired of that second window.
11:53	gfredericks	(I do realize the git-cli is crazy, I'm just already acclimated so it doesn't bother me)
11:53	TimMc	screen
11:53	TimMc	(now you have two problems)
11:54	nDuff	(screen? bah!)
11:56	weavejester	mdeboard: clj-aws-s3 is just a wrapper around the Java SDK library, so whether or not it uses connection pooling depends on the library provided by AWS
11:58	egghead	are there any good writeups on wrapping a clj library in java?
11:59	thorwil	TimMc: magit will notify you, if you bring it up and have unsaved files belonging to the repo open in any buffer
11:59	gfredericks	egghead: you want to take a clj library and write a java wrapper for it?
11:59	nDuff	egghead: How do you want to do it? There are two basic approaches -- interacting with clojure.lang.RT from your Java code, or exporting a Java-friendly interface from your Clojure via gen-class or such.
12:00	gfredericks	egghead: nDuff: lib-2367 gives you a one-liner for exporting a namespace into a class with static methods
12:04	gfredericks	hokay so if I'm using compojure and planning on returning all-json all-the-time what is the easiest way to let the routes return data that gets encoded transparently?
12:04	gfredericks	write a handler-wrapper myself?
12:08	egghead	nDuff: I saw some snippets of datomic which uses RT.invoke in it's private methods, it looked very nice but I think I'd like to understand it better
12:09	thorwil	gfredericks: i did that recently, for now for a single case of doing a async PUT via javascript: https://github.com/thorwil/tlog/blob/master/src/tlog/dispatch/route.clj#L19
12:12	technomancy	gfredericks: what's wrong with git in eshell?
12:12	technomancy	lack of a pager?
12:12	gfredericks	well it uses LESS I think
12:12	gfredericks	I suppose you can configure it not to?
12:12	technomancy	export GIT_PAGER=cat
12:12	gfredericks	then git will suck outside of emacs
12:13	technomancy	(export "GIT_PAGER" "cat")
12:13	gfredericks	this good tip.
12:19	Sgeo\|school	map->form emits fn.
12:19	Sgeo\|school	Wait, hold on
12:19	Sgeo\|school	Yeah, it does
12:19	Sgeo\|school	But fn is not a special form, fn* is
12:20	Sgeo\|school	fn is a macro
12:20	Sgeo\|school	So why is map->form emitting fn?
12:29	duck1123	I have a ns that is AOT compiled into a gen-class. The methods of this class need to call into my application, but if I require those namespaces then it ends up AOT-ing almost my entire application. Can anyone point to any resources to see how best to keep the compile time requires to a minimum? Would it be a huge hit to require the namespace, intern the var and call it in each of these methods? Or is there a better way?
12:30	Sgeo\|school	$mail ambrosebs Considering that fn is not a special form, while fn* is, why does map->form emit fn and not fn* ?
12:30	lazybot	Message saved.
12:30	Sgeo\|school	Is ambrosebs the correct nick?
12:31	Sgeo\|school	Looks oit
12:31	Sgeo\|school	it
12:33	melipone	hi! it's me again
12:35	melipone	How can I have a for loop with a counter? I wanted to do (for [x [:a :b :c] n (iterate inc 0)] (println x n)) but the counter "n" does not stop when "x" stops
12:37	Sgeo\|school	zip?
12:37	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
12:38	duck1123	,(doall (map str [:a :b :c] (range)))
12:38	clojurebot	(":a0" ":b1" ":c2")
12:38	Sgeo\|school	,(for [[x n] (map vector [:a :b :c] (iterate inc 0))] (println x n))
12:38	clojurebot	(:a 0
12:38	clojurebot	:b 1
12:38	clojurebot	nil :c 2
12:38	clojurebot	nil nil)
12:38	melipone	duck1123: thanks!
12:38	Sgeo\|school	I don'
12:38	Sgeo\|school	I doubt that that's the best way to do that though
12:39	uvtc	melipone: `for` is for creating seqs. For printing out stuff, I think you want `doseq`.
12:40	duck1123	(doc map-indexed)
12:40	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
12:40	melipone	uvtc: thanks!
12:41	Sgeo\|school	,(map-indexed identity [:a :b :c])
12:41	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$identity>
12:42	Sgeo\|school	,(map-indexed vector [:a :b :c])
12:42	clojurebot	([0 :a] [1 :b] [2 :c])
12:42	Sgeo\|school	In that context, what function makes more sense to use, list or vector?
12:44	melipone	Sgeo: thanks!
12:45	Sgeo\|school	melipone: erm, you're welcome, but I think the others in this channel were more helpful
12:46	uvtc	Aw, I like all the thank-yous. :)
12:47	duck1123	he thanked everyone in turn. No one got left out
12:47	technomancy	http://nedroid.com/2010/11/thanks-for-reading-my-comics/
12:47	uvtc	Yes. One of my fears: thanking profusely but leaving someone out.
12:48	uvtc	technomancy: thanks for that link!
12:48	technomancy	thanks for following it
12:53	melipone	quit
12:58	TimMc	duck1123: Does your ns need to expose anything besides -main?
12:58	duck1123	TimMc: My ns has a load of methods that it needs to implement. https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/src/jiksnu/xmpp/user_repository.clj
13:00	duck1123	I've tried to use channels and promises to work around it, but I don't like that solution
13:00	TimMc	and you have a shitload of requires
13:00	TimMc	Oh hey, tigase -- I use their free host.
13:02	TimMc	duck1123: Maybe there's a solution where you first pull all the implementations into a different ns.
13:02	duck1123	The requires in this file used to be a whole lot worse. I want to keep it as small as possible
13:02	clj_newb_234	is http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/the-refined-clojurist available in non-video format?
13:02	clj_newb_234	like maybe words + diagrams on a page?
13:52	alexnixon	where I can read up about the implementation of local variable and argument nulling in clojure (i.e. the compiler making it harder for you to unwittingly hold on to your head)?
13:56	hiredman	,(doc dorun)
13:56	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."
14:04	borkdude	what's the current status of counterclockwise + leiningen 2, do I still need a beta or can I use a stable version?
14:06	Sgeo\|school	Apparently I'm in a writing mood, yet instead of writing my ethics paper I'm writing on Clojure vs Common Lisp
14:06	Sgeo\|school	And I think I sort of went off the rails a bit
14:08	AimHere	Maybe you could write a paper on the ethical implications of your choice of Lisp
14:09	AimHere	If you're going to go off the rails, might as well do it properly
14:09	borkdude	what's Common Lisp?
14:10	Sgeo\|school	http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/37650151853/common-lisp-symbols-vs-clojure-symbols
14:11	Sgeo\|school	I don't think this post is entirely clear to be honest
14:11	Sgeo\|school	oops, wrote Common Lisp when I meant Clojure
14:18	TimMc	alexnixon: A useful search term would be "locals clearing".
14:30	gfredericks	why was rhickey's go talk not taped? :(
14:30	ivaraasen	gfredericks: schadenfreude
14:31	gfredericks	that's the worst kind of freude
14:31	ivaraasen	it's the only kind
14:31	gfredericks	ah so the term is redundant then
14:33	Sgeo\|school	Go talk?
14:34	gfredericks	from SL2011 I think
14:34	gfredericks	it's been long enough now that I can assume it won't ever exist :)
14:35	Sgeo\|school	Is it rhickey talking about the Go language? Or something else
14:35	gfredericks	no the board game
14:35	gfredericks	^ no sarcasm there in case that occurred to you
14:36	gfredericks	"Rich hickey discusses the english language's shortest verb."
14:36	Sgeo\|school	I'm just not sure why he'd give a talk on a non-Clojure language
14:37	gfredericks	right. he didn't. it was the board game.
14:37	ivaraasen	Sgeo\|school: masochism
14:37	gfredericks	no wait I can use the link
14:37	gfredericks	$google rich hickey learn to play go
14:37	lazybot	[Learn to Play Go - Strange Loop] https://thestrangeloop.com/sessions/learn-to-play-go
14:37	gfredericks	there now you know I'm not kidding
14:38	Sgeo\|school	...I thought your "no sarcasm there in case that occured to you" was sarcastic
14:38	Sgeo\|school	Just Googled...
14:38	ivaraasen	god damn it gfredericks. there goes my reading hour
14:38	gfredericks	I thought you might but it seemed futile to make meta-assertions
14:38	gfredericks	ivaraasen: why? there's no video. You're just going to start learning go independently?
14:39	g_s_g_s	newb question, the expression:
14:39	g_s_g_s	(set (map #( [ (:name %) (:type %) ] ) nodes)
14:39	ivaraasen	g_s_g_s: yes
14:39	g_s_g_s	barfs, what am I missing?
14:39	gfredericks	fails with wrong number of args passed to a vector
14:40	g_s_g_s	am trying to return a 2-elt containing those extracted fields
14:40	gfredericks	try (fn [%] [(:name %) (:type %)])
14:40	gfredericks	the #() form is a bit awkward for returning vectors
14:40	g_s_g_s	aha thx
14:40	gfredericks	the way you have it you're calling the vector as a function and trying to return that
14:41	TimMc	Ergh, don't use % as a normal symbol.
14:41	gfredericks	g_s_g_s: also good options are (fn [{:keys [name type]}] [name type]) and (juxt :name :type)
14:41	g_s_g_s	if I wanted to return a 2-elt list would it be easier?
14:41	g_s_g_s	don't care particulalry
14:41	gfredericks	g_s_g_s: you could say #(list (:name %) (:type %)), yeah
14:41	gfredericks	juxt is the bestest option though if it doesn't weird you out
14:42	amalloy	clojurebot: juxt is the bestest option though if it doesn't weird you out
14:42	clojurebot	Roger.
14:45	amalloy	gfredericks: my goal is to someday cause clojurebot to have more juxt quotes from you than from me
14:46	TimMc	&(nth (iterate (juxt first second) '[first second]) 1000)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ [first second]
14:46	gfredericks	amalloy: that's juxt nonsense!
14:47	g_s_g_s	juxt it is, thx :)
14:49	TimMc	,(nth (iterate (juxt first rest) '[first rest]) 10)
14:49	clojurebot	[first (((((((((#)))))))))]
14:50	amalloy	whaaaaat
14:51	Sgeo\|school	Ugh, webchat seems to be rather unstable
14:51	amalloy	fyi in any reasonable repl that results in [first ((((((((((rest))))))))))], which makes total sense. i don't get this # nonsense clojurebot is saying
14:52	Sgeo\|school	I missed it, what did clojurebot say?
14:52	gfredericks	[first (((((((((#)))))))))]
14:52	Sgeo\|school	What was the thing?
14:52	gfredericks	eh just some code
14:52	gfredericks	,(nth (iterate (juxt first rest) '[first rest]) 10)
14:52	clojurebot	[first (((((((((#)))))))))]
14:52	TimMc	amalloy: print-depth indicator
14:52	TimMc	I once spent like an hour trying to debug my repl because of that.
14:52	Sgeo\|school	So, there are no perfect Clojure REPL bots in here
14:52	Sgeo\|school	:(
14:53	TimMc	&(nth (iterate (juxt first rest) '[first rest]) 10)
14:53	lazybot	⇒ [first ((((((((((rest))))))))))]
14:53	TimMc	Sgeo\|school: lazybot is better at printing (and not flooding, too)
14:53	Sgeo\|school	clojurebot is better at not using a broken recursive macroexpander
14:54	gfredericks	lazybot is better at having feature X
14:54	TimMc	Sgeo\|school: Ah, do tell?
14:54	Sgeo\|school	I'm way too fond of this example
14:54	mattmoss	&::xyz
14:54	lazybot	⇒ :clojure.core/xyz
14:54	amalloy	TimMc: he's pointed it out like a hundred times but isn't interested in trying to fix it
14:55	Sgeo\|school	,(let [-> inc] (-> 5)) ; (##(let [-> inc] (-> 5))
14:55	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:55	clojurebot	6
14:55	amalloy	lazybot's macroexpander is definitely awful; i know, because i wrote it :P
14:55	Sgeo\|school	../me wats at the extra parens he put for the lazybot one
14:55	mattmoss	&(do (in-ns 'foo) ::bar)
14:55	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! in-ns is bad!
14:56	Sgeo\|school	amalloy: I think a good fix would be to replace it with ambrosebs's analyze
14:56	mattmoss	Doh.
14:56	amalloy	Sgeo\|school: no, a good fix would be to replace it with clojure.tools.macro. analyze is probably hugely overkill
14:56	TimMc	Ah, it applies macros even where locals should shadow them?
14:56	Sgeo\|school	amalloy: in terms of speed issues?
14:56	TimMc	Good to know, I guess.
14:57	amalloy	no, in terms of being too hard to figure out
14:57	Sgeo\|school	If the output is different from expected but equivalent, would that cause any issues?
14:57	Sgeo\|school	Because a macroexpander from analyze is just a composition of two functions that it has
14:58	Sgeo\|school	Was playing with it earlier
15:00	ARTWORKS	www.artworks.lt is waiting for a new artists, and people who like art.
15:03	Sgeo\|school	Does lazybot expose any libraries that have macros that use &env?
15:03	Sgeo\|school	Because mexpand-all doesn't process &env correctly, iirc
15:06	hcumberdale	How to get a key=>value pair from a map?
15:06	Sgeo\|school	,(find :a {:a 1})
15:06	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map>
15:06	Sgeo\|school	,(find {:a 1} :a)
15:06	clojurebot	[:a 1]
15:06	Sgeo\|school	,(find {:a 1} :b)
15:06	clojurebot	nil
15:06	hcumberdale	thx Sgeo\|school
15:06	Sgeo\|school	yw
15:07	hcumberdale	is it possible to return it as map again?
15:07	Sgeo\|school	,(into {} (find {:a 1} :b))
15:07	clojurebot	{}
15:08	Sgeo\|school	,(into {} (find {:a 1} :a))
15:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
15:08	gfredericks	,(conj {} (find {:a 1} :a))
15:08	clojurebot	{:a 1}
15:08	gfredericks	,(conj {} (find {:a 1 :b "BEEES"} :a))
15:08	clojurebot	{:a 1}
15:08	TimMc	&(into {} [(find {:a 1 :b 2} :a)])
15:08	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1}
15:09	Sgeo\|school_	qwebirc sucks :(
15:09	scriptor	school lab computer?
15:10	Sgeo\|school_	Yes
15:11	hcumberdale	what is the difference between binding and let in macros?
15:12	nDuff	hcumberdale: binding creates thread-local values for dynamic vars.
15:12	mr_rm	,()
15:12	clojurebot	()
15:12	mr_rm	,((fn [] "a"))
15:12	clojurebot	"a"
15:12	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...those local values are visible from anything that can see that dynamic var, not just within the textual scope.
15:13	mr_rm	,(#("a"))
15:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
15:13	TimMc	hcumberdale: If the (binding ...) and (let ...) in question are inside a syntax-quoted form, then nothing.
15:13	TimMc	(As in, it won't matter that it's in a macro.)
15:13	mr_rm	can someone tell me what the difference is between calling anon functions is here: ((fn [] "a")) and (#("a"))
15:14	TimMc	mr_rm: Instead, ask hy this does what you expect: #(+ 1 2)
15:14	TimMc	,(#(+))
15:14	clojurebot	0
15:14	mr_rm	TimMc: in this case i want a simple function that just returns a string
15:15	mr_rm	why doesn't the second case work? i thought those two syntax examples should be identical but they aren't
15:15	TimMc	That's why I posed that question to you.
15:15	nightfly_	mr_rm: (#("a")) is the same as ((fn [] ("a")))
15:16	TimMc	,'#("a")
15:16	clojurebot	(fn* [] ("a"))
15:16	nightfly_	#(do "a") should work
15:16	TimMc	(constantly "a")
15:16	mr_rm	ahh
15:16	mr_rm	<slaps forehead>
15:16	mr_rm	yeah ok
15:22	ipostelnik	in lein, can you make a task automatically select a profile?
15:23	technomancy	ipostelnik: you can alias the task to ["with-profile" "my-profile" "mytask"]
15:24	nDuff	Heh.
15:24	nDuff	ipostelnik: Howdy!
15:24	ipostelnik	technomancy, that's what I did, but it appears I can't use the same task as alias name
15:24	ipostelnik	e.g. :alias ["uberjar" ["with-profile" "foo" "uberjar"]]
15:24	ipostelnik	nDuff, hey
15:24	technomancy	ipostelnik: it's definitely possible; that's been explicitly supported for a while
15:25	ipostelnik	technomancy, I get stack overflow using 2.0.0-preview10
15:25	hcumberdale	I have a lot routes looking like: (GET "/url" request (render-in-admin-template (page-content-as-string) request)). Is it possible to write it cleaner? maybe using macros? render-in-admin-template extracts :context from request and provides it as additional argument to the rendering map (mustache template)
15:26	technomancy	ipostelnik: hrm; maybe there's a regression
15:26	technomancy	if you can repro on a fresh project feel free to open an issue
15:33	brehaut	hcumberdale: im no expert, but i think you are bumping up against the division between macros (GET) and functions (ring handlers). the presence of a macro makes me thing you may need macros to create anything that will simplify it
15:35	weavejester	hcumberdale: In general it's not always a great idea to pass the entire request object to your functions.
15:36	weavejester	hcumberdale: But you don't need a macro to simplify it. Just a function will do.
15:36	Bracki	Where did clojure/contrib/socket-server go?
15:36	Bracki	Trying to refurbish a 4 yr old fun project...
15:36	amalloy	clojurebot: where did clojure contrib go?
15:36	clojurebot	contribute is http://clojure.org/contributing
15:36	amalloy	~contrib
15:36	clojurebot	contrib is contribs
15:36	amalloy	sigh
15:36	Bracki	exactly
15:37	bbloom	~contribs
15:37	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
15:37	TimMc	clojurebot: forget contribs \|is\| contrib
15:37	clojurebot	I forgot that contribs is contrib
15:37	amalloy	clojurebot: forget contrib \|is\| contribs
15:37	clojurebot	I forgot that contrib is contribs
15:37	Bracki	server-socket did not seem to go anywhere or vanished in thin air...
15:37	amalloy	Bracki: that wouldn't be too surprising to me; it doesn't do very much iirc
15:37	TimMc	amalloy: contribs -> contrib was taught; the reverse direction was inferred.
15:37	weavejester	Bracki: I had that problem a couple of years ago, and wrote: https://github.com/weavejester/tcp-server
15:39	TimMc	hiredman: The symmetric relation in clojurebot's inference engine is making the factoid module pretty hard to use.
15:39	technomancy	weavejester: "Copyright (C) 2011 FIXME" <- oops =)
15:40	amalloy	TimMc: is that really a thing he does implicitly? that's pretty surprising
15:40	weavejester	technomancy: I didn't say it was very polished :)
15:40	technomancy	weavejester: not even a © symbol
15:40	brehaut	technomancy, weavejester: at least it has Usage
15:41	bbloom	I think I taught him contrib is contribs b/c it game some nonsensical error
15:41	TimMc	bbloom: Other way around.
15:41	amalloy	technomancy: Foundation for Imagining Xanth, by Malloy Enterprises. he attributes copyright to meeeeeeee
15:42	TimMc	I've always wondered what that stood for!
15:43	bbloom	"Usage: see test/*"
15:44	borkdude	if I want to try Scala (to find out if it's worth educating to students), what book and IDE do you recommend? I know it's cursing in here, but Clojure people seem to have good taste :P
15:45	amalloy	i bet eclipse has a pretty good scala plugin
15:45	hcumberdale	weavejester: a function will do? how?
15:45	weavejester	hcumberdale: Well, the GET etc. macros are just fancy ways of creating anonymous functions
15:45	weavejester	hcumberdale: So you can treat them like a closure
15:46	hcumberdale	When I like to call them in the following syntax:
15:46	weavejester	hcumberdale: e.g. (defn template-get [route template] (GET route request (render-template template request)))
15:46	hcumberdale	(GET "/abc" [] (admin-template (other logic)))
15:47	hcumberdale	How do i pass the :context parameter to admin-template ?
15:47	weavejester	hcumberdale: Do you just want to wrap a set of routes in a template?
15:48	weavejester	If so, you could use middleware
15:48	hcumberdale	yes weavejester. But only a few, not all
15:48	hcumberdale	some are POST JSON/REST stuff
15:48	weavejester	hcumberdale: Middleware can be applied selectively to some routes, and not to others
15:48	hcumberdale	others are GET adminui-view stuff
15:49	weavejester	Unless you're using Noir
15:49	hcumberdale	currently I'm doing: (defmacro S_GET [path args & body] `(GET ~path ~args (atmpl ~@body {:context (:context ~args)})))
15:50	hcumberdale	but it isn't nice because I need the full request to be there!
15:50	weavejester	hcumberdale: That could be a function, depending on what ~@body is.
15:50	weavejester	It's generally a bad idea to pass a function directly through the routes
15:50	hcumberdale	body differs for each adminui route
15:50	weavejester	One of the purposes of the routes is to filter relevant information out of the request
15:51	callen	weavejester: how does ragtime store applied migrations?
15:51	weavejester	callen: It depends on the adapter
15:51	callen	weavejester: is "in the database defined by the adapter" a fair summary?
15:51	weavejester	callen: The default SQL adapter stores them in a table called ragtime_migrations
15:51	callen	weavejester: precisely what I wanted to know. tyvm.
15:52	weavejester	callen: You're welcome
15:52	callen	weavejester: I'm evaluating lobos, ragtime, migratus, etc.
15:52	weavejester	hcumberdale: Could you give me an example of what ~@body might be?
15:53	hcumberdale	(render-file "templates/dashboard" {}) << 'inner template' rendering
15:53	hcumberdale	results in a string
15:53	hcumberdale	=> evaluates to a string
15:53	callen	hcumberdale: what are you doing for templates?
15:53	hcumberdale	stencil
15:54	weavejester	hcumberdale: So ~@body always evaluates to a string?
15:54	hcumberdale	Logicless Mustache templates for Clojure
15:54	hcumberdale	yes weavejester
15:54	callen	hcumberdale: da. just wondering, thank you.
15:54	weavejester	So you could have some middleware that does something like…
15:55	hcumberdale	In the case that a adminui page is rendered,... not for all GET/POST requests
15:56	ohpauleez	is there anyway to visual the tree/trie of a data structure?
15:56	ohpauleez	I thought the inspector would do it (never used it before), but it doesn't seem to be the case
15:57	weavejester	hcumberdale: https://gist.github.com/4253294
15:57	weavejester	So you return the body that isn't wrapped in the outer template
15:57	weavejester	And then use middleware to add it.
15:59	hcumberdale	weavejester: it feels some kind of wrong to use middleware. It should take effect only on specific routes and how they differ is configured in the defroutes part
15:59	brehaut	hcumberdale: middleware is used more aggressively in clojure/ring/compojure than other languages / frameworks
16:00	weavejester	hcumberdale: Why is it wrong? Middleware is about applying a common set of behaviour to a subset of routes.
16:00	brehaut	hcumberdale: its the secret sauce that makes it so great
16:01	hcumberdale	How can I mask to routes where the middleware should be applied?
16:01	ohpauleez	nvm, found: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/HmsyuhLzico
16:02	weavejester	hcumberdale: You just apply the middleware directly to a subset of routes
16:02	Bracki	https://github.com/technomancy/server-socket/ I found this
16:02	weavejester	hcumberdale: So (wrap-foo (GET "/bar" [] …)) will work
16:02	Bracki	But now I get a Could not locate server_socket__init.class or server_socket.clj on classpath
16:02	weavejester	hcumberdale: As will (wrap-foo (routes (GET "/foo" [] …) (GET "/bar" [] …)))
16:03	Bracki	Given project.clj how do I figure out what the actual namespace is?
16:03	amalloy	Bracki: not possible
16:04	hcumberdale	like (defroutes admin-routes (wrap-template (GET "/" [] nil) (GET "/x" [] nil)) (GET "/other" [] nil))
16:04	hcumberdale	?!
16:04	Bracki	amalloy: What is not possible?
16:04	amalloy	Bracki: Given project.clj how do I figure out what the actual namespace is?
16:04	weavejester	hcumberdale: More like...
16:04	weavejester	(def admin-routes (wrap-template (routes (GET "/" [] nil) (GET "/x" [] nil)) (GET "/other" [] nil)))
16:05	Bracki	So leiningen just downloads useless stuff?
16:05	amalloy	cannot be done. the project.clj has no bearing on the namespace, except that frequently the namespace is related somehow to the project name
16:05	weavejester	I kinda regret putting "defroutes" in Compojure
16:05	S11001001	Bracki: no
16:05	weavejester	Because it's just short for (def … (routes …))
16:05	weavejester	But people treat it as more magical than it is.
16:05	hcumberdale	;)
16:05	amalloy	weavejester: kinda inclined to agree. my mind was blown when i found out routes was its own entity
16:06	brehaut	weavejester: i imagine people would have treated routes as just as magical
16:06	weavejester	I think "routes" was a poor name, too. It should have been something like "combine" or "cascade"
16:06	TimMc	Bracki: A project called "org.timmc/sparkles" might have a main namespace called "unicorn.rainbows.core".
16:06	S11001001	weavejester: then the RoR refugees wouldn't have been able to find it
16:06	hcumberdale	weavejester: no second routes for "other" ?
16:06	weavejester	Since all it does is combine multiple routing functions into one
16:06	amalloy	i also imagined, for quite some time, that routes was a macro that looked at all the GET/POST clauses and compiled something special
16:06	weavejester	hcumberdale: Oh, right, yeah, there should be a separate one for other
16:06	S11001001	weavejester: since the only way to learn a new framework is to assume it's like the one you already know, after all
16:07	brehaut	weavejester: i think that often peoples preconceptions from other frameworks and libs blind them to what is actuall going on
16:07	Bracki	Ok, so given the above project https://github.com/technomancy/server-socket/blob/master/src/server/socket.clj what do I :use?
16:07	amalloy	Bracki: https://github.com/technomancy/server-socket/blob/master/src/server/socket.clj#L9
16:07	weavejester	Bracki: server.socket it looks like
16:08	TimMc	src/NAMESPACE/IS/IN/HERE.clj
16:08	TimMc	except munged for use as a path
16:08	Bracki	Ha, thanks
16:08	TimMc	so you look at the top of that clj file to be sure
16:08	Bracki	Now I only need str-join
16:08	Bracki	Where did that go?
16:08	duck1123	clojure.string/join
16:10	Bracki	Can I do aliased usage?
16:11	Bracki	Replacing str-join with join gives me ould not locate join__init.class or join.clj on classpath
16:12	borkdude	Bracki: try (use '[clojure.string :only [join]) and then try again
16:15	hcumberdale	weavejester: with your solution "other" is also templated
16:16	weavejester	hcumberdale: Yeah, that was a mistake. Just apply the middleware to all the routes except the "other"
16:17	Bracki	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalStateException: join already refers to: #'clojure.string/join in namespace
16:17	weavejester	e.g. (def r (routes (wrap-foo (routes a b c)) d e f))
16:17	weavejester	Or: (defroutes r (wrap-foo (routes a b c)) d e f)
16:18	weavejester	Or: (defroutes admin a b c) (defroutes other d e f) (defroutes all-routes (wrap-foo admin) other)
16:18	Bracki	It's always the same, being a parent I spent 90% of my evening on class loading/bootstrapping stuff and then I go to bed.
16:19	dr1	Hi, I'm new to functional programming and am stuck on something simple. I'm trying to run a function from a project I'm working on in a repl. I'm seeing this: IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :priority of protocol: #'gui2.list/IInterface found for class: clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.core/-cache-protocol-fn (core_deftype.clj:527)
16:19	hcumberdale	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
16:19	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1085
16:19	dr1	does that mean I am passing the wrong data type?
16:20	amalloy	dr1: probably
16:20	Bracki	lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods, aha
16:21	mthvedt	dr1: you're passing a symbol, and it doesn't implement that protocol… this error is commonly caused by accidentally using a symbol instead of what the symbol refers to
16:21	dr1	amalloy: how do I figure out what I'm supposed to pass… priority should be some non-negative number and I tried passing it in as 0 or "0" and get the same error complaining that it's a java.lang.symbol
16:22	dr1	agh, so then it's likely that priority is not just a simple number?
16:22	TimMc	It sounds like you're not passing in the args that you think you're passing.
16:22	hcumberdale	weavejester: it returns some crazy things now: [:status 200][:headers {"Content-Type" "text/html;charset=UTF-8", "Character-Encoding" "UTF-8"}][:body ...
16:22	mthvedt	dr1: in that error message, priority is a fn being called
16:22	hcumberdale	not the html ;(
16:23	mthvedt	numbers and strings are not symbols, so that's probably not the cause
16:23	weavejester	hcumberdale: Well, a handler returns a response map
16:23	weavejester	hcumberdale: You need to apply your template to the body of the response
16:24	hcumberdale	mhh,...
16:24	TimMc	dr1: Seeing a small code snippet would be helpful: http://refheap.com/
16:25	Bracki	Does anybody spot whats wrong here: http://pastebin.ca/2291229
16:26	llasram	Bracki: You're excessively quoting the first :use "argument" vector
16:26	hcumberdale	I've used a fn to ensure utf-8 is send back (defn utf8r "Ring skeleton with headers." [body] {:status 200 :headers { "Content-Type" "text/html;charset=UTF-8" "Character-Encoding" "UTF-8"} :body body})
16:26	llasram	Bracki: (i.e., you need to delete the ' character)
16:27	hcumberdale	How to I use it in the middleware? Or is it the wrong place?
16:27	Bracki	llasram: That gives me join already refers to: #'clojure.string/join in namespace: urkle.core
16:28	llasram	That's a just warning, and means you already pulled it into the namespace / are pulling it in via a raw use/require call elsewhere in that namespace
16:28	weavejester	hcumberdale: Everything in Ring is just functions and maps, so you could just alter the response with middleware to add the content type.
16:29	Bracki	llasram: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalStateException, doesn't look like a warning to me...
16:29	weavejester	hcumberdale: Though Compojure defaults to returning text/html;charset=UTF-8 anyway with strings
16:29	hcumberdale	why do I need if-let [response (handler request)] ?
16:29	hcumberdale	is it possible that there is no (handler request) ?
16:29	weavejester	hcumberdale: Just in case the response is nil
16:29	weavejester	hcumberdale: That's what happens when a route doesn't match
16:30	llasram	Bracki: Hmm. Usually it's just a warning. Do (ns-unmap ns 'join) in your REPL, then reload
16:30	dr1	agh! While trying to write a code snippet, I think I found the problem.. priority ISN'T just a number. Now, I guess I have to figure out how to create a priority properly. Thanks, I'll be back if/when I get lost again
16:30	weavejester	hcumberdale: I wrote a blog post on how Compojure routes were made up
16:30	weavejester	hcumberdale: http://www.booleanknot.com/blog/2012/09/18/routing-in-compojure.html
16:32	hcumberdale	So it will be some kind of: (defn wrap-utf8 [handler]
16:32	hcumberdale	(fn [request] (if-let [response (handler request)]
16:32	hcumberdale	(assoc-in response [:headers] { "Content-Type" "text/html;charset=UTF-8" "Character-Encoding" "UTF-8"}))))
16:32	Bracki	llasram: ain't got no repl, lein test says that
16:33	llasram	Bracki: Then you've got a call to (use ...) somewhere else in there, or something
16:35	weavejester	hcumberdale: Yep, though there are some functions in ring.util.response that could make things easier
16:35	hcumberdale	weavejester: is there a chance of overwriting other headers using assoc-in?
16:36	hcumberdale	weavejester: remembering to have problems with jetty and UTF-8
16:36	weavejester	hcumberdale: e.g. (content-type response "text/html;charset=UTF-8")
16:36	llasram	Bracki: Or potentially, multiple files which are actually declaring they implement the same namespace
16:36	weavejester	hcumberdale: Well, the way you wrote it it would overwrite
16:36	hcumberdale	how to merge?
16:36	hcumberdale	is there a merge-in ?
16:36	weavejester	hcumberdale: Because you wrote (assoc-in response [:headers] …) instead of (assoc-in response [:headers "Content-Type"] …)
16:37	weavejester	hcumberdale: There is an update-in
16:37	hcumberdale	But this will replace them too
16:38	weavejester	hcumberdale: I'm not completely sure what you want to do...
16:38	hcumberdale	Is it a good idea to overwrite the headers?
16:38	hcumberdale	Or is it better to merge them?
16:39	weavejester	hcumberdale: That depends on what you want to do...
16:39	weavejester	assoc-in won't overwrite all the headers, if used correctly
16:39	hcumberdale	Settingthe Content-Type and Caracter-Encoding headers, leaving other headers untouched
16:39	weavejester	And you can use update-in for more nuanced changing of the header
16:40	weavejester	hcumberdale: If you just want that, then use assoc-in
16:40	hcumberdale	weavejester: two calls?
16:40	weavejester	weavejester: Or use the ring.util.response/header and ring.util.response/content-type
16:40	hcumberdale	one with [:headers "Content-Type"] and another with [:headers "Character-Engoding"] ?
16:41	weavejester	hcumberdale: Well, there isn't a Character-Encoding header in HTTP
16:42	TimMc	One of many annoyances!
16:44	Bracki	llasram: Whatever I do, I keep getting that error
16:48	llasram	Bracki: If you posted a git repo of the entire project state, I'd be willing to take a look, but there's not much more I can say ATM
16:52	hcumberdale	Thx weavejester it works
16:55	egghead	work just set me up for clojure west :D :D :D
16:57	weavejester	hcumberdale: You're welcome :)
17:02	Bracki	llasram: https://github.com/bracki/urkle
17:05	llasram	Bracki: Oh! Both clojure.string and clojure.set have a 'join' function
17:05	llasram	So you can't blindly pull in all symbols from both namespaces
17:05	Raynes	You wouldn't want to do that anyway
17:05	llasram	Bracki: Best practices is to use :require with :as anyway
17:05	amalloy	let this be a lesson to never :use a whole namespace, for the perils are beyond mere mortal comprehension
17:06	Raynes	If you don't qualify your requires, you end up with code that makes no sense because there is no way to tell where anything came from.
17:06	Bracki	4 years ago that was recommended practice...
17:06	Raynes	You end up with Ruby.
17:06	Raynes	Oops, did I say that out loud?
17:06	amalloy	Bracki: maybe it was common practice, but i doubt it was recommended
17:06	hiredman	it never was
17:06	hcumberdale	Haha Raynes
17:07	Bracki	I'm fine with common...
17:08	bbloom	dnolen: just watched your core logic talk via skills matter. good stuff!
17:08	Raynes	Bracki: Please, don't be.
17:10	Bracki	I was refering to what was common 4 years ago.
17:10	amalloy	Raynes: the poor guy is trying to bring a 4-year-old project up to date. give him a break
17:10	Raynes	amalloy: Go play with your Emacs and let the adults talk.
17:10	amalloy	you'll never be as swank as i am
17:10	llasram	"You'll never be as nrepl as I am" really doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?
17:11	llasram	Well, unless you use drawbridge
17:12	Bracki	Thanks, it runs again.
17:12	technomancy	llasram: well there's always http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VJcfXdR1X0
17:12	Bracki	Now I'll commit it and ask again in 2 yrs time ;)
17:12	llasram	nice
17:12	Sgeo\|web	Raynes: is it ok if the macroexpander that Clojail uses does weird things like putting the whole thing in an fn and immediately calling it?
17:13	Sgeo\|web	Or using ... I forget what it does when it sees +
17:13	Bracki	What did the foo syntax mean?
17:13	Bracki	Anything special or just some convention?
17:13	Sgeo\|web	Convention for dynamically-scoped vars
17:13	amalloy	technomancy: what an interesting cover
17:14	Raynes	Sgeo\|web: Not sure what you're asking.
17:14	technomancy	amalloy: it's the first version I heard
17:15	ipostelnik	how can I convince lein to never look in central and clojars?
17:15	llasram	ipostelnik: :omit-default-repositories true
17:15	technomancy	ipostelnik: or add ^:replace metadata to your :repositories map
17:15	Sgeo\|web	Raynes: I want to scrap macroexpand-most and replace it with (comp map->form analyze-form)
17:15	technomancy	vector
17:15	technomancy	whatever
17:15	weavejester	Does anyone know if there's an in-memory queue for Java that will put items back on the queue if a worker times out?
17:15	llasram	technomancy: Oh, does that work with preview10 ?
17:16	ipostelnik	I have :repositories ^:replace [["my-repo" "url"]]
17:16	technomancy	llasram: it should; haven't tried it myself
17:16	Raynes	Sgeo\|web: Everything in clojar does weird things. If it works, go for it.
17:16	Raynes	clojail*
17:16	Sgeo\|web	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7471
17:16	ipostelnik	yet I get lots of "Could not find artifact ... in central" and same for clojars
17:17	technomancy	ipostelnik: maybe you need :omit-default-repositories then
17:17	Sgeo\|web	That fn should really be fn*
17:17	Sgeo\|web	I think
17:17	hcumberdale	,(type :x)
17:18	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
17:18	Sgeo\|web	I don't really know the difference though, and don't know if that could be an exploitable hole
17:18	llasram	technomancy, ipostelnik: Yeah, I def need :o-d-r
17:18	hcumberdale	,(type #^Keyword :x)
17:18	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
17:18	technomancy	they should be the same thing; hrm
17:20	hcumberdale	,(let [#^Keyword x :y] (type x))
17:20	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
17:21	hcumberdale	Is clojure.lang default included for type hinds? It seems
17:21	hcumberdale	,(type [:y nil :x nil])
17:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
17:22	hcumberdale	,(type {:y nil :x nil})
17:22	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
17:22	llasram	hcumberdale: It is not. And also, the #^Class syntax is obsolete -- you can just use ^Class
17:23	hcumberdale	What's the best type hind for map and vector?
17:24	hcumberdale	llasram: why does ^Keyword work then ?
17:24	llasram	hcumberdale: Probably none. Unless you're directly invoking methods on the passed in values, the hints won't do anything
17:24	hcumberdale	,(let [^Map x {:x 1}] (type x))
17:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
17:25	nDuff	hcumberdale: Do you mean "why doesn't"? (And that would be a surprise, if it didn't, unless clojure.lang.Keyword weren't in your namespace)
17:25	llasram	hcumberdale: Because ^Symbol is just shorthand for ^{:tag Symbol}, where the "Symbol" value is quoted, and resolved when needed. This can be kind of confusing at times, but allows ^int etc for primitives
17:26	hcumberdale	,^Keyword x
17:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:26	hcumberdale	,^Keyword :x
17:26	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
17:26	hcumberdale	hmpf
17:26	llasram	&(meta (first '(^Example x)))
17:26	lazybot	⇒ {:tag Example}
17:27	hcumberdale	&(meta (first '(^Keyword :x)))
17:27	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas
17:28	llasram	Yeah, keywords are singletons, so can't have metadata
17:28	amalloy	hcumberdale: there is also no reason to ever typehint a keyword literal (and very rarely a reason to typehint a literal of any sort)
17:28	TimMc	Besides, you can't reliably attach metadata to runtime values using ^ anwyay.
17:29	amalloy	TimMc: i thought that for a long time, but apparently i'm basically crazy
17:29	TimMc	Oh, has it changed?
17:29	amalloy	i don't think so
17:29	amalloy	it's always worked
17:29	TimMc	I could swear I've seen it fail in the recent past.
17:29	amalloy	it's just that (my fault, again) it doesn't work in lazybot
17:29	clojurebot	Huh?
17:29	TimMc	Oh, ha.
17:30	amalloy	clojurebot: go away
17:30	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:30	hcumberdale	Should I use type hints with defrecord?
17:30	TimMc	amalloy: EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT CLOJURE IS A LIE
17:30	amalloy	,(meta ((fn [x] ^:even x) 'sixteen))
17:30	hcumberdale	I thought they are used to avoid reflection
17:30	clojurebot	nil
17:30	hcumberdale	,(type :x)
17:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
17:30	amalloy	god damn it. really? how can i never be right about this?
17:31	TimMc	I would certainly not expect that to work.
17:31	amalloy	,(meta ((fn [x] ^:even [x]) 'sixteen))
17:31	clojurebot	{:even true}
17:31	hcumberdale	(= (type :x) 'Keyword)
17:31	hcumberdale	,(= (type :x) 'Keyword)
17:31	clojurebot	false
17:32	hcumberdale	,(= (type :x) 'clojure.lang.Keyword)
17:32	clojurebot	false
17:32	hcumberdale	??
17:32	lazybot	hcumberdale: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
17:32	llasram	hcumberdale: It avoids reflection, but that only matters when you actually invoke JVM methods. If you just pass them to clojure functions there's no reflection to avoid
17:32	amalloy	TimMc: i think it works on collections but not symbols? i just never try to do it, but it works more often than you'd expect
17:33	TimMc	hcumberdale: First off, you want class, not type (to make things simpler).
17:33	TimMc	hcumberdale: Second, the return type is a class, not a symbol.
17:33	hcumberdale	Direct access is faster by 10 times I think
17:33	TimMc	amalloy: a.k.a. not reliably
17:33	llasram	amalloy: That boggled my mind for a second, but now I see what's happening
17:34	TimMc	hcumberdale: ##(= (class :foo) clojure.lang.Keyword) Note the lack of ' in front of the classname.
17:34	lazybot	⇒ true
17:34	pyr	is there a way to control aot compile order ?
17:34	Bronsa	,(meta ((fn [x] (with-meta x {:f true})) 'sixteen))
17:34	clojurebot	{:f true}
17:34	hcumberdale	TimMc: ahh
17:34	Bronsa	amalloy: ^
17:34	llasram	TimMc: I think the confusion is around type-hinting, which does use symbols. Just symbols which are resolved to class names at certain times
17:35	TimMc	&(meta ((fn [x] ^:even [x]) 'sixteen))
17:35	lazybot	⇒ nil
17:35	amalloy	Bronsa: we're well aware
17:35	hcumberdale	,(defrecord Foo [a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t])
17:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:35	hcumberdale	;9
17:36	hcumberdale	,(class 1)
17:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
17:36	hcumberdale	,(class :1)
17:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
17:37	hcumberdale	,(class clojure.lang.Keyword)
17:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
17:37	hcumberdale	ahh!
17:38	hcumberdale	Is the correct type hint ^Keyword or ^clojure.lang.Keyword ?
17:39	hcumberdale	Or do they work only with primitives ?
17:41	hcumberdale	thought about using (defn +typeX [& [init]] (merge {:x nil :y false} init)) or defrecord.
17:42	hcumberdale	But performance will be an issue with ~15 parameters and thousands of instances
17:49	hcumberdale	How to change values in records?
17:50	AimHere	I think you can't; you have to use types for mutable values
17:50	AimHere	You could consider making a new record with the updated value in proper functional style.
17:51	nDuff	hcumberdale: What's your situation/use case?
17:52	hcumberdale	nDuff: I have ~2500 xml files stored on the file system
17:52	hcumberdale	I want to write an UI to attach meta information to these files
17:53	hcumberdale	like assign a file to a category
17:53	hcumberdale	~15 attributes for each file
17:53	clojurebot	_seanc_: Your files don't get reloaded when a request is made.
17:53	nDuff	hcumberdale: I typically use atoms in that kind of case -- you can have the UI subscribe via listeners to know when there's an update coming from other code so it can respond.
17:54	hcumberdale	nDuff: it is a web ui, currently without websockets
17:54	nDuff	hcumberdale: ClojureScript supports atoms.
17:55	hcumberdale	in general I would use a map
17:55	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...yes, but Clojure's native maps are immutible.
17:55	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...so, you have the same question with them you have about records, ie. "how do I change these?"
17:55	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...and the answer to that question is "put the object behind an atom".
17:56	hcumberdale	but I have multiple values there
17:56	hcumberdale	Is a ref better then a atom then?
17:56	nDuff	hcumberdale: If you're only using _one_ map to hold your multiple values, an atom is the right thing.
17:57	nDuff	hcumberdale: refs are useful when you want to have coordinated transactions across several entry points into your mutable state
17:57	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...in general, it's better to avoid doing that.
17:57	nDuff	(also, refs aren't available in ClojureScript, so if you're doing this browser-side, you can't use 'em anyhow)
17:57	nDuff	hcumberdale: I'd suggest reading Joy of Clojure, btw.
17:58	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...it has a lot of focus on the kind of conceptual grounding that your questions seem to be centered around.
17:58	nkkarthik	how can I start nrepl server in tomcat webapp?
17:59	hcumberdale	nDuff: maps = bad performance, they are 25 times slower then direct access to a record
17:59	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...so, this is another thing that reading Joy of Clojure would be answering for you. :)
17:59	hcumberdale	nDuff: I'm writing server-side
18:00	nDuff	hcumberdale: Clojure's native record types provide a compatible interface with its native map types.
18:00	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...so, you can prototype with native maps and move to defrecord without changing the rest of your code.
18:00	hcumberdale	changing means a second instance then?
18:00	nDuff	...huh?
18:01	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...oh, you don't understand structural sharing.
18:01	nDuff	hcumberdale: Seriously, go read JoC.
18:01	hcumberdale	I know what it is. But not how it affects records
18:01	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...basically -- Clojure's native datatypes share their content as much as possible on updates.
18:01	nDuff	hcumberdale: That's true for records too.
18:02	hcumberdale	but they are java objects, how is that possible?
18:02	nDuff	...by implementing structurally-shared datatypes in Java?
18:02	sshack	So what's the current user friendly Clojure repl to use?
18:03	hcumberdale	How does a Type hint work then?
18:03	nDuff	...
18:03	brehaut	sshack: lein repl / reply (its the same thing)
18:03	nDuff	hcumberdale: ...I'm having trouble following the train of thought that would lead to that follow-up question.
18:03	nDuff	(and I don't have time for 20 questions)
18:03	hcumberdale	ok
18:03	brehaut	nDuff: i was under the impresion that records didnt do structural sharing for their intrinsic fields, only conj'd on map fields?
18:04	sshack	brehaut: Any with syntax highlighing/paren matching?
18:04	nDuff	brehaut: ...well, yes -- there's not really so much structure there.
18:04	brehaut	sshack: the ccw / eclipse repl might? or an emacs nrepl?
18:05	nDuff	sshack: emacs+paredit+nrepl.el certainly does all that, and a whole lot more.
18:05	sshack	Might play with emacs, thanks.
18:05	sshack	Wish we could get beyond emacs though. It's so 1970's.
18:05	nDuff	sshack: I'd suggest Emacs Live if you're a newcomer -- has a whole lot of shiny plugins all in one place, and some videos showing off features/usage
18:05	sshack	(Yeah, I know about light table, it looks wonderful)
18:06	hcumberdale	awww!
18:06	sshack	nDuff: 15 year emacs user. But I gave it up a few years ago out contempt for its user apathy.
18:06	sshack	nDuff: I agree. But the intent and potential is there.
18:11	hcumberdale	Is there a JSON FlatFile Store for Clojure data structures?
18:12	Apage43	a who
18:12	Apage43	I just do line-separated
18:12	oskarth	how are people setting up emacs with clojurescript repl?
18:13	Apage43	you can JSON encode it, but you lose stuff like sets
18:15	hcumberdale	Apage43: How do you sync changes with the file?
18:16	Apage43	depends. If it's just one big structure, it's just (->> "file" slurp read-string make-changes pr-str (spit "file"))
18:16	dnolen	hmm what's w/ the "Namespace not found." nrepl.el errors again after a nrepl-quit and restart?
18:17	dnolen	oskarth: I just use inferior lisp
18:17	oskarth	dnolen: how do you set it up?
18:17	oskarth	it tells me CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME isn't configured, but it's in my env
18:18	dnolen	oskarth: you may need to setup .bashrc w/ that info too.
18:18	oskarth	dnolen: it's in there
18:18	dnolen	oskarth: perhaps you need to set in .profile too? or .bash_profile?
18:19	dnolen	oskarth: I always get confused so I just do it in all 3.
18:19	oskarth	possibly, I'll do some more trial and erorr and googling
18:19	oskarth	haha
18:19	oskarth	dnolen: but you tie it to $CLJS_HOME/script/repljs, right?
18:19	dnolen	oskarth: not unless I'm doing something w/ the compiler - I use lein-cljsbuild's repl support
18:20	oskarth	ah
18:20	oskarth	dnolen: could you paste the line you use to config that? maybe I'm doing something wrong there
18:20	dnolen	oskarth: what I use to config Emacs?
18:20	Apage43	hcumberdale: what exactly do you need?
18:20	oskarth	dnolen: yeah, the inferior-lisp hook
18:21	dnolen	oskarth: http://gist.github.com/4254233
18:22	Apage43	i like hadoop. Depending on the version you either -have- to set HADOOP_HOME, or you get yelled at because you set HADOOP_HOME
18:23	technomancy	Apage43: ah, glad to see it hasn't lost any of its charm in the 3 years since I briefly glanced at it and fled in horror
18:24	gfredericks	does korma's select ever return a lazy thing? or is the data always loaded by the time it returns?
18:24	brehaut	gfredericks: from memory it always realizes the data so that it doesnt have cursors hiding in unrealized seqs?
18:24	oskarth	dnolen works, thanks!
18:24	gfredericks	brehaut: that's what I would hope
18:25	brehaut	gfredericks: (incase the connection is closed)
18:25	brehaut	gfredericks: caveat: i dont know what im talking about
18:25	gfredericks	I'm a little concerned about the behavior of (select foos (with bars))
18:25	technomancy	wouldn't you want cursors to translate into clojure lazy seqs?
18:26	brehaut	technomancy: i dont make the decisions, i just parrot them in a lossy form
18:26	hiredman	technomancy: korma doesn't using a with-connection macro
18:26	hiredman	so there is nothing else to control the scope of the connection
18:27	hiredman	so the connection and associated resources (cursors, results, etc) must be closed before the select returns
18:27	technomancy	oh right, bleah
18:27	hiredman	yep
18:27	gfredericks	oh so korma is inherently terrible for reducing over large result sets?
18:28	hcumberdale	Apage43: Holding 15 metadata attributes for ~2000 xml files
18:28	hcumberdale	Modify them using a web ui
18:29	hiredman	I am not a fan
18:29	hcumberdale	It should be possible to cluster the application. Then they share a disk for the shared data
18:29	gfredericks	I'm not particularly enamored with korma. But I do think there is value in assembling a query programmatically rather than using SQL strings
18:30	hcumberdale	When I write logic to store data structures and load them + Sync logic so every client is up-to-date maybe the best solution is mongodb or a rdbms...
18:30	technomancy	gfredericks: it's clear that c.j.jdbc is not the right abstraction, but I'm pretty sure korma isn't it either
18:31	hiredman	a problem with korma is it combines sql generation with database connections and management there of
18:31	hcumberdale	+ korma does not handle ddl
18:31	TimMc	You can separate those somewhat...
18:31	technomancy	hcumberdale: that's a feature
18:31	jeremyheiler	gfredericks: jkkramer is working on a library to do just that, but im not sure if he's released it yet
18:31	Apage43	hcumberdale: yeah, once you have more than one machine, I don't know that file based is the way to go. But https://github.com/flatland/masai w/ tokyo cabinet would probably be what you want otherwise.
18:31	TimMc	Korma can emit the SQL strings instead of sending them.
18:32	hiredman	use sql-form or whatever and pass it to clojure.java.jdbc
18:32	hiredman	I guess
18:32	technomancy	hcumberdale: there's no way to handle DDL in a way that works across databases. it's just impossible to do consistently.
18:32	gfredericks	jeremyheiler: I particularly like having the compiler notice if I have a typo. But that requires declaring your tables at a minimum.
18:32	gfredericks	which feels verbose if typo-checking is the only thing you're getting from it.
18:32	hcumberdale	technomancy: but a subset like hibernate does
18:32	hiredman	anyway, some needs to spec out a sql ast in clojure datastructures, and write a compiler that generates sql strings from that
18:33	technomancy	hcumberdale: even then it's impossible to do on the scale of clojure
18:33	gfredericks	hiccup-for-sql
18:33	hiredman	maybe
18:33	gfredericks	sqicclup
18:33	technomancy	it takes an immense amount of work to catch all the edge cases needed for that
18:33	technomancy	no single clojure project has that kind of manpower
18:33	hiredman	I was thinking something more ast like, like the output of the cljs analyzer
18:34	gfredericks	technomancy: are you talking about query generation or ddl?
18:34	technomancy	gfredericks: ddl
18:34	gfredericks	hiredman: for the end user, or for other tools to build on?
18:35	hiredman	gfredericks: the latter
18:35	gfredericks	that doesn't sound remotely terrible
18:35	hiredman	the ast would be the "interchange" format so the layer of macros can just spit out an ast, then another tool knows how to check the ast against your table definitions to see if they make sense
18:36	gfredericks	very nice
18:36	hiredman	please do it
18:36	jeremyheiler	here's one of jkkramer's projects, but its not the one i saw at conj https://github.com/jkk/honeysql
18:36	gfredericks	:)
18:37	hiredman	jeremyheiler: interesting
18:37	hiredman	it looks like it tries to hard to be human consumable though
18:38	hiredman	but maybe in practice it could be fine, and I am just biased towards my own vision
18:38	jeremyheiler	haha yeah. definitely get in touch with him about his other project.
19:07	bbloom	i've got an algorithm that produces an extremely large tree of maps. many of the elements are only one assoc away from each other, so it's pretty memory efficient, but if i prn it to a file and read it back in, then it's huge. i kinda wish i had a way to "compress" a recursive persistent datastructure...
19:08	hiredman	bbloom: interesting
19:09	hiredman	you'd want to print out a collection of deltas and bases and apply the deltas on read
19:10	bbloom	i think it's actually simpler than that… if you could treat every internal tree node as a "value" then you could simply walk the tree and memoize look up an instance for every node
19:10	hiredman	bbloom: there is always java serialization
19:10	bbloom	how is that relevant?
19:11	hiredman	hmmmm, I guess it isn't
19:11	hiredman	I was thinking you could use it to just dump everything exactly as is, but of course there are no bck pointers
19:12	bbloom	i wish there was some InternalRepresentation protocol
19:12	bbloom	if i called it on a PersistentTreeMap, i'd get back an immutible array, or on a PersistentTreeMap i'd get back the trie or red black tree or whatever it is
19:13	bbloom	then i could just stick every node into a map and each time i build one up, check the map to see if i already have it, if so, throw out the new value and reuse the existing instance
19:13	bbloom	then throw out the memo table after reading the large data structure
19:17	bbloom	but none of the internals provide hashCode or equality implementations
19:20	bbloom	oh well maybe some of them do....
19:20	tpope	bbloom: I'm not sure how to follow up to Meikel
19:22	bbloom	tpope: shrug
19:22	bbloom	he said feel free…. i guess go for it? :-P
19:22	bbloom	i guess the issue then becomes the maintenance burden
19:23	tpope	I feel like stealing his static files, bikeshedding them, and submitting them upstream would be a bit douchey
19:24	bbloom	by bikeshedding, you mean modifying them to meet your/bram's arbitrary requirements for inclusion in vim?
19:25	tpope	I actually meant the more traditional definition of petty changes
19:25	tpope	e.g. I think making the options look like vimclojure#foo is dumb
19:25	tpope	why am I defining stuff in your namespace?
19:26	tpope	I guess Meikel wasn't the original author of the syntax file anyways
19:27	bbloom	which pieces do you want specifically? syntax, indent, ftdetect, what else?
19:27	tpope	a subset of the ftplugin
19:27	tpope	and that's pretty much it
19:28	bbloom	what functionality is in that subset?
19:28	tpope	stuff like 'comments' and 'formatoptions'
19:28	tpope	I could write the ftplugin from scratch easy
19:28	bbloom	yeah, hm
19:28	bbloom	well, considering:
19:29	tpope	syntax is harder, and indenting a nightmare
19:29	bbloom	1) he's not the original author of many bits
19:29	tpope	I still don't understand clojure indenting
19:29	bbloom	2) it's MIT and he said go for it
19:29	bbloom	and 3) my strict adherence to the "better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" philosophy
19:29	bbloom	i say go for it
19:30	bbloom	indenting is a whole nother topic
19:30	tpope	his indenting stuff looks kind of complected with the dynamic stuff
19:30	bbloom	so, generally, people line up arguments
19:31	bbloom	but only indent 2 spaces for the body of blocks
19:31	bbloom	but thanks to macros, there is no easy syntactical clue as to what is a block and what is an argument
19:31	tpope	what is a block
19:31	bbloom	so it looks like he has some heuristics for guessing if something is a block
19:31	bbloom	in this case starts with def, with, let, etc
19:32	technomancy	just steal the list from clojure-mode.el =)
19:32	tpope	an excellent idea
19:33	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L781
19:33	bbloom	but for a real fuzzy definition of what a block is, i'd say it's anywhere you'd imagine a macro expands out to some implicit 'do form :-)
19:33	cemerick	tpope: just 2 spaces everywhere is the only sane thing, if you were looking for easy opionions
19:33	technomancy	docs for that macro are here: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L630
19:33	bbloom	or something that is the spiritial equivilent of a 'do, like the top level logical conjunction in core.logic
19:33	tpope	cemerick: I like that but clearly it's not the norm :)
19:33	cemerick	macro-or-not is not a solvable problem statically
19:33	technomancy	cemerick: it is if you name your macros right =)
19:34	technomancy	if you want indentation support, name it with-*
19:34	cemerick	oy :-P
19:34	bbloom	personally, i find vimclojure's intenting somewhat annoying
19:34	cemerick	ccw has done away with any kind of special macro indenting support AFAIK. Even ever-present REPLs aren't enough to make it workable.
19:35	tpope	I know enough clojure that maybe, just maybe I'm finally up for the task of muddling through elisp
19:35	bbloom	i'd prefer what cemerick says, just indent 2 spaces if i'm inside an unclosed block and i'll line it up myself beyond that
19:35	brehaut	i just watched dnolen's clojure exchange presentation. i really want an excuse to use core.logic
19:35	technomancy	tpope: I think the docstring should give you all you need to know
19:35	technomancy	hopefully you don't have to read the implementation
19:35	cemerick	bbloom: anything that isn't automatic is too irritating to bother with
19:36	tpope	technomancy: "addition to those that are built-in" <-- do I need a list of built-in ones?
19:36	bbloom	i abuse the hell out of block selection to insert and remove whitespace in a very percise way before/after/within lines
19:36	technomancy	tpope: there are two types of exceptions to the regular indent rules: 0) always indent the second line with 2 spaces, or 1) treat the first N args as special and line up everything beyond those according to traditional rules
19:37	technomancy	0) in this case is for those forms marked with 'defun and 1) is for those marked with an integer
19:37	amalloy	technomancy: i can't think of any instances of (1)
19:37	bbloom	amalloy: deftype and defrecord?
19:37	bbloom	proxy?
19:37	clojurebot	proxy is not reify
19:38	bbloom	any conditional or binding form
19:38	technomancy	amalloy: in practice they're usually indented like 0) unless you put newlines in funny places
19:38	technomancy	maybe 0) is all you need
19:38	technomancy	I'm not really sure why it's implemented that way in clojure-mode
19:38	bbloom	there is a difference between reformat and indent while editing
19:38	technomancy	amalloy: wait didn't you submit some indentation patches to this? you probably know more about the implementation than I do
19:38	bbloom	if you're going to reflow a form, you need to know how many args to preserve on a line
19:39	bbloom	if you're just looking for "how many spaces should i insert when you press <cr>"
19:39	bbloom	then the answer is "generally: 2"
19:39	amalloy	technomancy: well, i submitted a way to ask for a given symbol to be indented like (0)
19:39	amalloy	i still don't understand the indent specification for deftype and friends
19:39	amalloy	bbloom: deftype, reify, and proxy are neither (0) nor (1)
19:40	technomancy	amalloy: me neither woooooo
19:40	bbloom	maybe i misunderstood technomancy's definitions
19:40	technomancy	maybe I misdefined them
19:41	bbloom	i'm thinking (do x y z) would put x y and z on new lines indented 2 spaces, but (let [x 1] y z) would leave [x 1] on the first line
19:41	tpope	how much of this is absolute and how much is opinion?
19:41	tpope	bbloom I get the impression you're trying to challenge the existing conventions
19:42	amalloy	bbloom: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7479
19:42	bbloom	tpope: that's not my intention
19:42	technomancy	tpope: bonus points if you don't include a way to change indentation from two spaces
19:42	amalloy	oh, except i labeled them wrong like an idiot
19:42	seangrove	Is there a concise way of sorting a map on a key, and then if that key is equal in both args, sorting on a secondary key?
19:43	seangrove	Well, sorting a vector or maps, sorry
19:43	bbloom	seangrove: vectors are comparable, so you can sort on a function of each element, where that function returns a vector in order of keys to sort by
19:43	bbloom	use juxt :-)
19:43	technomancy	oh man beat me to it
19:44	tpope	technomancy: a tricky one. overwhelming dogma of indent files that ship with vim is "that's up to the user"
19:44	callen	does anyone know what the current state of sourcemaps in ClojureScript are? http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Source+Maps this seems old and not very encouraging.
19:44	amalloy	well, juxt doesn't let you be lazy about not calling (g a) if (= (f a) (f b))
19:44	seangrove	Will try juxt I support
19:44	technomancy	tpope: actually as long as they can't turn on tab indentation I'm good
19:44	amalloy	juxt would be the right answer in haskell, i guess. in clojure it's pretty good and fine most of the time
19:44	tpope	do people actually do this?
19:45	bbloom	amalloy: is there a short circuiting solution?
19:45	technomancy	tpope: I guess I mostly only see it in old code
19:45	cemerick	tpope: I think I found the fix to #11
19:45	tpope	cemerick: :D
19:45	cemerick	tricky little bastard
19:45	amalloy	bbloom: sure. nothing built in, but it's easy to write
19:45	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, i was asking about built in
19:45	seangrove	amalloy: There will only be a few items in the vector ~100 at most
19:45	cemerick	tpope: I need to put together some good tests to verify and such, but an 0.2.0-RC2 should be ready for you tomorrow morning.
19:45	tpope	bbloom: ^
19:46	bbloom	excellent.
19:46	tpope	I guess I'll need to add some sort of detection to foreplay to only use sessions if this bug doesn't exist
19:46	cemerick	tpope: Thank you very much for the report. In the end, it was provoked by the different connections. Hopefully _now_ we can say that sessions and connections/transports are properly separated.
19:47	tpope	bbloom et al: can you keep an eye out for concrete examples of indent failures with the VimClojure stuff?
19:47	cemerick	All the existing (popular) nREPL clients maintain mostly-persistent connections, which explains why this bugger hid for so long.
19:47	tpope	I won't be solving that tonight
19:48	tpope	cemerick: guess you didn't plan on an editor with one foot still in the seventies :D
19:48	bbloom	tpope: i might be beyond help there. my brain adjusts to indent annoyances until it's transparent to me
19:48	cemerick	tpope: always using sessions is highly recommended. Later futures (like subscribing to System/out and System/err) will end up streaming on a per-session basis.
19:48	tpope	bbloom: I see stuff that feels wrong, but it's hard for me to say why it's wrong
19:48	bbloom	don't knock the 70s. there's some damn good 70s tech :-)
19:48	cemerick	tpope: quite the opposite; I've been trying to design around probable issues around vim et al. from the beginning
19:49	cemerick	Thus the (almost fulfilled) disconnect between transports/connections and sessions.
19:49	tpope	cemerick: well I can't really turn them on if it's connected to an nrepl with this bug
19:49	cemerick	right
19:49	cemerick	well, you could just say "requires nREPL 0.2.0" :-P
19:50	tpope	maybe a year from now I cna
19:50	cemerick	oh?
19:50	tpope	I mean I don't want to require an RC that was released 3 hours ago
19:50	cemerick	no one's using anything before 0.2.0-beta something
19:51	tpope	yeah but beta something has the bug
19:51	bbloom	does lein auto self update? and does it bring new releases of nrepl with it?
19:51	cemerick	they'll all roll forward once lein 2 is finalized, I promise you
19:51	cemerick	bbloom: no, and yes
19:51	tpope	okay
19:51	tpope	well after lein 2 is finalized I can do that
19:51	cemerick	bbl
19:51	cemerick	sounds very reasonable
19:52	tpope	as it stands I still support lein 1.7
19:52	seangrove	Wow, juxt worked wonderfully
19:53	seangrove	(sort-by (juxt #(or (:order %) 999) :source :name) (flatten field-descriptions))
19:53	bbloom	(inc juxt)
19:53	lazybot	⇒ 3
19:53	technomancy	seangrove: you don't need or there; just do #(:order % 999)
19:53	bbloom	i just keep finding new uses for juxt, love that little function
19:54	seangrove	technomancy: That's why I pasted it, thought there might be something nifty like that :)
19:54	amalloy	also jesus, flatten? that's like 100% to be wrong
19:55	brehaut	is there a kibit rule for flatten?
19:55	amalloy	brehaut: it just reformats your hard drive
19:55	technomancy	System/exit
19:55	brehaut	ahaha
19:55	brehaut	literally lolling
19:56	seangrove	amalloy: Mind explaining a bit?
19:56	brehaut	~flatten
19:56	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
19:56	hcumberd`	is there any lib in clojure to help with file locking?
19:57	seangrove	I'll re-examine it and see if I can get rid of flatten
19:57	bbloom	hcumberd`: it would be nice if there was an https://github.com/liebke/avout type thing for that….
19:58	bbloom	in fact, avout probably could be extended to work on a normal posix file system
20:51	cemerick_away	tpope: wow, 1.7?
20:51	cemerick_away	technomancy: do you have usage stats at all between versions?
20:53	tpope	cemerick: the second thing I did when trying out clojure was brew install leiningen. I can't be the only person to make that mistake
20:54	cemerick	heh
20:54	cemerick	Probably not _only_, but...
20:54	cemerick	;-)
20:54	tpope	cemerick: and really, I didn't have to go out of my way to support it
20:55	cemerick	fair enough
20:55	tpope	I just have to make sure I say "Lein 2" when talking about target/repl-port
20:55	bbloom	what's blocking the lein 2 release? i seem to recall it being something small
20:55	cemerick	tpope: are you planning on supporting remote connections and such?
20:56	tpope	cemerick: it should already work
20:56	tpope	I don't have any remote servers running clojure yet
20:56	bbloom	cemerick: i'll probably figure out how to get clojurescript working with it soon
20:56	hiredman	bbloom: the final release of lein 2 will only pull from the signed clojars releases by default, but they are not many signed clojars releases
20:57	bbloom	hiredman: ouch. that's gonna take forever to evolve, is it not?
20:57	hiredman	dunno
20:58	tpope	bbloom: I made the repl interface small and well defined, so hopefully it will be pretty easy
20:58	bbloom	tpope: cool. i'll trade you more Clojure help for VimL help :_)
20:58	tpope	cemerick: how do people usually do that. ssh tunneling? I don't see any authentication
20:59	hiredman	tpope: I dunno that people usually do that, nrepl has an http transport and you can drop cemerick's http auth stuff (friend) in front of that
21:00	cemerick	tpope: what hiredman said. nREPL is channel-agnostic. HTTPS + Basic auth is easy mode.
21:01	tpope	HTTP was the first thing I tried and I couldn't get it to work
21:01	cemerick	I've been meaning to get a JMX transport wired up, eventually.
21:01	hiredman	cemerick: that would be neat
21:01	tpope	or rather, I couldn't find enough documentation to convince me that was a viable path
21:02	cemerick	tpope: see https://github.com/cemerick/drawbridge
21:02	cemerick	technomancy did a writeup on using it on heroku, which might be of some interest https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/debugging-clojure
21:02	hiredman	the thing to watch out for are the middleware requirements
21:02	cemerick	Though, heroku's lack of session-affinity is a bit of a bummer.
21:03	tpope	cemerick: "Other nREPL transports are provided by the community" in the README links to https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/wiki/Extensions
21:04	tpope	I took that very literally
21:04	cemerick	jeez
21:04	cemerick	I didn't realize that changing the title changed the URL :-/
21:04	bbloom	cemerick: what is the state of piggyback?
21:05	bbloom	piggieback*
21:05	tpope	cemerick: is drawbridge simple enough that I could talk to it with curl?
21:05	brehaut	oh now i want to be insane and implement an xmlrpc nrepl transport
21:05	cemerick	tpope: fixed
21:05	tpope	great
21:06	hiredman	you can talk to it via curl, data is json encoded though
21:07	hiredman	(I've used curl to verify that drawbridge was working)
21:07	bbloom	i guess i need to wait for the sessions fix to use piggieback
21:07	cemerick	tpope: yes
21:07	cemerick	bbloom: and, yes
21:07	tpope	I can actually parse json in VimL with eval()
21:07	cemerick	piggieback is solid AFAICT
21:08	hiredman	tpope: sounds gross
21:08	bbloom	cemerick: glad to hear it. is there anything that could move upstream to the cljs repl protocols and stuff?
21:08	cemerick	bbloom: much of it really should be in cljs already, w.r.t. eliminating the REPL's assumption about being on stdin/out
21:08	tpope	a drawbridge adapter should be pretty easy to implement
21:08	bbloom	cemerick: yeah, that's what i was asking about. i'd be happy to contribute patches to cljs to get it there
21:09	bbloom	i want to get foreplay working as smoothly with cljs as it does with clj
21:09	tpope	is there a good oss project with drawbridge set up I can play with?
21:10	cemerick	bbloom: There's not a lot of code, and I commented as I went along and hit pain points. ;-) https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback/blob/master/src/cemerick/piggieback.clj
21:10	tpope	I mean I could roll my own, but exposure to another code base is a win for me learning
21:10	bbloom	cemerick: yeah, skimming it now
21:10	cemerick	Much of it would be super-simple to fix, if one has cljs commit.
21:10	bbloom	i want to press cpp and have an expression evaluated like magic and not have to care about if it's a clj or a cljs form :-)
21:11	cemerick	I just didn't have the energy to produce tickets and patches.
21:11	bbloom	i don't have cljs commit, but dnolen tends to at least look at my patches :-)
21:11	cemerick	bbloom: exactly what piggieback does; same with load-file, interrupt, etc
21:12	amalloy	being in #clojure is practically like having cljs commit rights, given dnolen exists
21:12	tpope	bbloom: me too
21:12	cemerick	Yeah, I've never had any problem getting patches in. I just couldn't bring myself to spend more time on it, once I got the thing working.
21:12	bbloom	fair enough
21:12	cemerick	mental budget blown, and all that
21:13	cemerick	I doubt I'll ever know cljs internals the way I grok Clojure.
21:13	bbloom	cljs' internals are a mix of messy/hacky/dammit-it-works and "oh, that's nice"
21:14	bbloom	analyzer and compiler, despite not being sliced up into smaller passes, are actually quite understandable
21:14	bbloom	it's all the rhino and closure and module system gunk that leaves me scratching my head
21:14	cemerick	Yeah, it's always the interop bits that I gloss over on.
21:15	cemerick	right
21:15	cemerick	And the weird node bits that poke through here and there
21:15	bbloom	heh
21:16	bbloom	but now that there are a bunch of parties interested in self hosting the cljs compiler (such as light table and other dev tools), there may be more pressure to decouple from the JVM
21:16	bbloom	which will surely yield cleaner protocols for those messy bits
21:16	bbloom	the biggest wrinkle in this is our dependence on the google compiler for performance of the resulting targeted code
21:17	bbloom	but that's not strictly necessary for non-optimized code generation
21:17	bbloom	and ultimately we want clojure-specific optimizations, such that we can apply them to any backend
21:21	sshack	There aren't any kernel density estimators (statistics) done in clojure are there?
21:21	cemerick	I'm a blissful user of cljs.
21:22	cemerick	Need that easy dial turned up to 11. :-P
21:23	bbloom	cemerick: luckily, most clojure code ports to cljs pretty seamlessly
21:23	bbloom	right now i'm working primarily in clojure with a very small runtime component in cljs
21:24	cemerick	hrmph
21:24	bbloom	since all the data structures are printable/readable, i just forward them across the wire to render in the browser :-)
21:24	bbloom	perf is obviously shit this way, since i need to serialize and deserialize application state on every change
21:24	bbloom	but testing is sooo much easier
21:24	cemerick	That's been my biggest problem: keeping libs portable
21:25	cemerick	Even using crossovers, cljx, everything I can get my hands on.
21:25	bbloom	yeaaaaah....
21:25	cemerick	So many little twiddly silly differences.
21:25	bbloom	there's been some talk of feature expressions
21:25	cemerick	Sounds like dnolen wants them bad, so that's something.
21:25	cemerick	They're going to lead to a lot of really messy codebases.
21:25	bbloom	yeah, he's been trying to maintain core.logic on clj and cljs at the same time
21:25	bbloom	it's tricky
21:26	bbloom	well that's the big problem: people are gonna use feature expressions like C preprocessor macros
21:26	bbloom	:-/
21:26	cemerick	well, it's sorta inevitable
21:26	cemerick	ever see some super-portable CL?
21:26	cemerick	:-O
21:26	bbloom	heh, well yeah, i mean that's what people did with C preprocessor: they ported software
21:27	cemerick	I've started to wonder if portability really is a lost cause.
21:27	bbloom	and then people were like "this is ugly" so people have crazy tools that take the preprocessor and REMOVE IT and generate a patch file
21:27	bbloom	haha
21:28	cemerick	The semantics around hosty bits may always conspire against us.
21:28	bbloom	there are a bunch of java-isms that people use a lot that we need to wrap in the standard lib
21:28	cemerick	esp. numerics.
21:28	bbloom	… like "throw"
21:28	cemerick	hah
21:28	bbloom	i don't even want to think about numerics :-P
21:28	cemerick	That was my first custom cljx/kibit rule I wrote
21:29	bbloom	(throw (Exception. ?e)) -> (throw (Error. ?e))
21:29	bbloom	yeah?
21:30	cemerick	(try ... (catch AnyJVMExceptionType e ...)) => (try ... (catch js/Error e ...))
21:30	cemerick	and yeah, the throw, too
21:30	bbloom	better yet, do: (try ... (catch* e ...))
21:31	cemerick	oh really!
21:31	cemerick	When did that become kosher?
21:31	bbloom	it's not kosher.
21:31	bbloom	:-P
21:31	cemerick	heh
21:31	cemerick	You're not going to troll me into looking at whatever `try` emits :-P
21:32	cemerick	Or are you proposing a variant of try on the fly?
21:32	bbloom	oh, i might be wrong, it's not catch* it's try*
21:32	bbloom	catch isn't really a form, it's processed by try
21:33	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/core.clj#L874
21:33	bbloom	(try* … (catch e …))
21:33	technomancy	cemerick: download stats are at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/downloads but don't really include timestamps unfortunately
21:33	technomancy	I'd pay a fair bit to get raw logs out of github =\
21:34	technomancy	I should start timestamping snapshots of those numbers though
21:34	cemerick	technomancy: huh, strong numbers for 1.7.1
21:34	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, and they got rid of the traffic graph when the redesigned the graphs
21:35	bbloom	:-/
21:35	cemerick	ClojureScript sources are the new rickroll
21:36	bbloom	cemerick: i have a tendency to force people to look at the source any chance i get :-)
21:36	tpope	cemerick: as someone who was confused by the state of affairs with the preview releases, I am unsurprised by this
21:36	bbloom	quite a few junior devs have thanked me for it years later ;-)
21:37	tpope	it took me a long while to figure out that using the preview was the preferred course of action
21:38	cemerick	tpope: I never had any use for 1.x, so I've never known anything else.
21:39	cemerick	technomancy & co. are relentless though, so it was probably only a matter of time
21:39	tpope	wait how long has 2.x been a thing?
21:40	cemerick	Development started on it more than a year ago
21:40	tpope	I expected worse actually
21:40	cemerick	worse?
21:40	clojurebot	worse is slurp
21:41	cemerick	clojurebot: that's dumb
21:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:41	gfredericks	clojurebot: that is dumb
21:41	clojurebot	c'est bon!
21:41	tpope	well you've been doing clojure for well over a year, no?
21:41	bbloom	~that
21:41	clojurebot	that is a completely unrelated, but entirely useful link
21:41	bbloom	~dumb
21:41	clojurebot	dumb is that
21:41	bbloom	heh.
21:42	tpope	for a brief moment I failed to consider that you may have been using some tool other than lein
21:42	tpope	shrug
21:43	bbloom	tpope: there's a bunch of shell scripts in the clojurescript tree… that's what i was using :-P
21:43	cemerick	tpope: Started in 2008
21:43	cemerick	bbloom: don't get me started :-P
21:55	tomoj	bbloom: any guesses what that more fundamental abstraction (than INotify) might look like as a protocol?
21:55	tomoj	(or protocols..)
21:55	bbloom	tomoj: not sure… i suspect i'd have to study erlang's OTP
22:00	bbloom	tomoj: you're interested in push sequences too, right?
22:00	tomoj	are you suggesting it replace INotify? or just that there's this other thing we need to think about too?
22:00	bbloom	well i'm not sure INotify is sufficient
22:01	bbloom	but there are definitely other things to consider too
22:01	bbloom	considering that there is no unregister… i worry about resource leaks with INotify
22:01	tomoj	oh yeah, me too
22:01	bbloom	but there are other concepts to consider
22:02	tomoj	but for the one example I had in mind, I realized there is no resource leak
22:02	bbloom	process links/trees, etc
22:02	bbloom	executors
22:02	bbloom	pools
22:02	bbloom	schedulers
22:02	tomoj	(specifically (any a b) where one of a and b is never realized, or is realized much later than the other)
22:02	bbloom	queues
22:02	tomoj	does IScheduler satisfy your process tree concerns?
22:02	bbloom	composite futures, processes, sequences, etc introduce all sorts of interesting riples
22:03	bbloom	where is IScheduler?
22:03	tomoj	Rx
22:04	bbloom	looking at it now
22:04	bbloom	this is a scheduler in the cron sense
22:04	bbloom	i'm talking about a scheduler in the kernel sense
22:04	tomoj	well, ignore the complection with time stuff
22:05	tomoj	without that IScheduler looks something like executors I think
22:05	tomoj	(in one video the Rx team conveniently tells us that IScheduler is three different things stuck together :D)
22:05	bbloom	so convenient :-P
22:06	bbloom	i'm looking at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd460693(v=vs.100).aspx now
22:06	bbloom	task schedulers are different than reactive schedulers
22:06	bbloom	there are also "partitioners"
22:07	bbloom	you see rich's talk about reducers? somebody asks when reducers stops breaking it down into smaller parts to be executed sequentially per part?
22:07	bbloom	rich says that he picks an arbitrary configurable threshold and that somebody else can figure that problem out :-P
22:08	bbloom	well that whole partitioning/load balancing/whatever thing is a tough problem too
22:08	bbloom	there's lots of stuff
22:09	bbloom	i guess my main thought was that we're putting the cart before the horse by focusing on listenable futures without the underlying bits and pieces for multiprocessing
22:10	bbloom	i recall Erik Meijer (architect of Rx) saying that the first version of Rx was stand alone and they rewrote it on top of Px and everything got much simpler and faster
22:10	tomoj	I think I agree - there shouldn't be an ExecutorService param in INotify
22:10	tomoj	but getting rid of it requires answering some of your questions (if I understand them)
22:10	tomoj	...luckily I mostly care about cljs
22:12	bbloom	dopey single threaded javascript :-/
22:12	bbloom	anyway, concurrency and parallelism have many design concerns in common
22:13	bbloom	i think if you design a solution for a concurrent AND parallel environment, it's reasonably straight forward to make it run in a concurrent but NOT parallel environment
22:13	bbloom	you just pretend that there is 1 CPU
22:13	bbloom	and no threading :-P
22:13	bbloom	probably can optimize a bunch of things, but i would design in java land and port to javascript for Px and Rx type things
22:14	bbloom	as long as you never call (Thread. X) in client code and only ever enqueue work, then it should abstract cleanly
22:15	bbloom	the really hairy bit comes in when you consider blocking…. suddenly you need a CPS transform :-P
22:21	tomoj	I have the cps transform bucketed into the "easy" side — but haven't started working on it yet :(
22:21	bbloom	tomoj: feel free to fork and contribute to mine: https://github.com/brandonbloom/cljs-cps/
22:22	bbloom	i lost all my momentum on it while i waited to get some fixes into cljs that i needed
22:22	bbloom	all the fixes are in now, but i haven't gone back to it yet
22:28	holo	i have: "No method in multimethod 'to-source' for dispatch value: class clojure.core.match.WildcardPattern" when compiling on heroku. i don't have this problem in my local machine. i can't understand why this behaviour is different
22:40	tomoj	any reason not to implement the cps as a normal macro instead of on analyzer output?
22:41	tomoj	eventually want it on the jvm too, and likely before there is an analyzer there like cljs's
22:41	bbloom	tomoj: so the analyzer currently whole bunch of things all in one pass
22:41	bbloom	i really just need the "parse" piece of it
22:41	bbloom	consider for example try* https://github.com/brandonbloom/cljs-cps/blob/master/src/cps.clj#L157
22:42	bbloom	it's actually a non trivial piece of logic to parse a try/catch/finally block
22:42	bbloom	similar story with fn: https://github.com/brandonbloom/cljs-cps/blob/master/src/cps.clj#L200
22:42	tomoj	yeah, I see. and I think macroexpansion may be a problem on the jvm, if some macros use &env
22:42	bbloom	but yeah, was gonna say: macro expansion is the big part
22:43	bbloom	if you have macros that themselves use the environment, you can't do macro expansion
22:43	bbloom	in theory, you could just macroexpand up front, but the analyzer does that for you
22:43	bbloom	i don't need any tag inference or any of the other fancier bits in the analyzer
22:44	bbloom	but also the :children model makes it easy to walk the AST and search for serious/non-trivial expression
22:46	bbloom	that ANF transform is reasonably robust, so you can see how nice an AST transform can be
22:46	bbloom	the CPS part isn't finished, but primarily because i was still designing IContinuation, etc
22:50	bbloom	the ANF transform makes the :default case for the CPS transform pretty nice: https://github.com/brandonbloom/cljs-cps/blob/master/src/cps.clj#L226
22:50	bbloom	since you can trust all of the serious expressions have already been hoisted out into a :let form
22:59	bbloom	i'm interested in breaking up the clojure analyzer dramatically
22:59	bbloom	should be able to opt into or out of macro expansion
23:00	bbloom	for example
23:00	bbloom	what if codeq just wants to see how often a macro is used?
23:00	bbloom	right now there isn't a way since the macros are expanded upon analysis
23:01	akhudek	does anyone know why clojure would be trying to compile an installed jar instead of it's checkout version?
23:02	akhudek	the classpath looks right: the checkout source comes before the maven copy
23:11	cemerick	tpope: are you set up to be able to test against a SNAPSHOT rev of nREPL? I'd love to get confirmation from you on the fix before cutting -RC2
23:11	tomoj	that by itself seems like a potentially easy change, since macroexpand-1 is only called in analyze-seq ? maybe I underestimate
23:12	tpope	cemerick: I think so. I've never done it before
23:12	pendlepants	if I've got a list like (1 2 3 4 5 6), is there a function that returns ((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))?
23:12	cemerick	tpope: add this to your project.clj:
23:12	cemerick	:repositories {"sonatype-oss-public" "https://oss.sonatype.org/content/groups/public/"}
23:13	cemerick	tpope: then change the nREPL version to 0.2.0-SNAPSHOT
23:15	tpope	cemerick: first thing I notice is "nREPL server started on port 57778" (from lein?) is now printed after the prompt
23:16	tpope	cemerick: it works!
23:16	cemerick	tpope: the printing of stuff like that (prompt, server started on X, etc) is all up to the clients (in this case, reply/lein)
23:17	cemerick	tpope: awesome
23:17	tpope	yeah that's what I figured
23:17	cemerick	Thanks again for the report! Hope I didn't hang you up too much
23:17	tpope	no it's all good
23:17	cemerick	I hope I can get to giving foreplay a try soon.
23:18	tpope	who would I ping about the prompt thing? technomancy?
23:18	tpope	:D
23:18	cemerick	tpope: trptcolin, mostly
23:19	cemerick	He's only occasionally on irc; probably best to open an issue on the reply project
23:19	cemerick	tpope: this is just from running `lein repl`?
23:19	tpope	cemerick: yep. That string appears in the source to leiningen
23:20	cemerick	well, in that case, there's lots of people you can bother :-P
23:20	tpope	if I blame the line of code it goes back to trptcolin :P
23:21	cemerick	it was printed before the prompt? Seems nigh-impossible, since that println happens before reply is connected to the REPL.
23:21	cemerick	tpope: he's mostly to blame for the lein repl task these days ;-)
23:22	cemerick	tpope: do you mind a general vim Q?
23:22	tpope	cemerick: it looks like user=> nREPL server started on port 54346
23:22	tpope	cemerick: not at all
23:22	cemerick	yuck
23:22	cemerick	raciness around System/out?
23:23	cemerick	tpope: have you ever used eclim successfully, or do you know of anyone who has/does?
23:23	tpope	it feels like there's a split second between the prompt and the port announcement
23:23	tpope	cemerick: I haven't, but I get bug reports against other plugins from people who apparently have
23:24	cemerick	interesting
23:24	cemerick	I'd love to use it, but it doesn't support macvim :-((((
23:24	cemerick	good to know that it's apparently viable
23:24	tpope	curious that macvim isn't supported
23:25	tpope	I have no idea if these people run on a mac at all
23:28	cemerick	tpope: Not surprising, given the ways swt and any-other-ui-toolkit interact.
23:28	tpope	my vague understanding was that eclim worked by talking to an external eclipse instance, not by embedding in it
23:28	cemerick	Killer vim Clojure support + the promise of eclim working well may be just another little push to get away from OS X for work.
23:28	tpope	but it's been years since I looked
23:29	cemerick	it can do both, apparently
23:29	rbxbx	cemerick what do those have to do with OS X?
23:30	cemerick	rbxbx: You just missed it. eclim apparently can't embed macvim into eclipse, but gvim on linux or windows is fine.
23:31	rbxbx	hmm
23:32	tpope	cemerick: do you get much out of eclipse for clojure? or do you want it mostly for java?
23:33	cemerick	tpope: The Clojure support is roughly on par with e.g. SLIME IMO. Different tradeoffs. I've been contributing to ccw for years now, so...
23:33	cemerick	Laurent would be so disappointed if I started using vim for clojure :-P
23:34	cemerick	Actually, I'd still use ccw's REPL support; it's just the editor that I'd like to swap out
23:34	cemerick	But, yes, having that JVM stuff underneath you is the motivating factor. Java-the-language capabilities, debugger, profiler, etc etc etc
23:34	tpope	hmm, ok
23:35	rbxbx	tpope: it looks like eclim works in two ways, either a headless instance that vim can talk to, or (on unix & windoze) embedding a vim editor inside of eclipse itself
23:35	rbxbx	tpope: (though admittedly until this talk of embedding I was only familiar with the former)
23:35	cemerick	rbxbx: funny, I can't get to their page at all now
23:35	tpope	cemerick: yeah that's what I just tried
23:35	tpope	I'm a little curious to try it
23:35	rbxbx	cemerick: had to use cached & text only
23:35	cemerick	ah
23:35	tpope	I am sitting in front of a linux box currently
23:36	rbxbx	I tried to use ccw without prior eclipse experience and just found myself overwhelmed and dumbfounded.
23:36	Raynes	Eclipse has that effect on people.
23:37	Raynes	OMG, WHICH BUTTAN
23:37	frozenlock	How does one close an NREPL buffer and kill the process at the same time? (Like slime did with swank...)
23:37	tpope	my gut has been screaming DON'T DO IT and you just explained why
23:37	rbxbx	Raynes: yeah. All the wizards in the world couldn't save me
23:38	cemerick	All these geeks managing to browse the web with all its funny buttons, links, and geegaws, but then get flummoxed by a systematic, consistent UI
23:38	rbxbx	tpope: yeah. You'll have to lose your sense of smugness toward IDE users after their primitive tooling destroying you in minutes.
23:38	tpope	it's more robust than that :)
23:39	rbxbx	ha
23:39	Raynes	Systematic like cancer, consistent like Hitler.
23:40	rbxbx	damn.
23:40	bbloom	tomoj: simply conditionally executing macroexpand-1 in analyze-seq would yield yet another dynamic configuration variable
23:40	rbxbx	cemerick: I'm sure had I grown up on IDEs or sat with a proficient user of one it'd be a non-issue
23:40	bbloom	but macroexpansion is just a basic case
23:41	bbloom	tomoj: i want to add other passes, stuff like what's going on inside of GClosure: all your typical compiler stuff. constant folding, closure lifting, etc
23:41	rbxbx	cemerick: xcode and squeak do the same thing to me, so it's not just eclipse
23:41	bbloom	tomoj: so a pluggable pass pipeline is desirable
23:41	cemerick	rbxbx: shrug I'm convinced it's a social-signaling thing amongst certain classes of programmers.
23:42	cemerick	textmode good/hip/cool/efficient, GUI bad/gauche/dilbert
23:42	tpope	rbxbx I seem to recall you basically became a web developer because you couldn't figure out how to pirate visual studio
23:43	rbxbx	tpope this is true. And I knew how to, but my AOL connection wouldn't stay alive long enough to download 6 megs :(
23:43	cemerick	Oh, pleeeze let that be true!
23:43	tpope	it's pretty much my backstory too
23:43	rbxbx	It was just preordained that I not be an IDE user
23:43	cemerick	you just needed to find the right AOL group that had the bits split across 6 .pk files.
23:43	bbloom	heh. that is awesome
23:44	cemerick	gawd, now I feel old
23:45	rbxbx	cemerick: to address your previous point though, there are swaths of languages that don't benefit much from the tooling provided by IDEs... and a lot of those languages are more "hackery" than "enterprisey"... so... the issues maybe get conflated?
23:45	bbloom	if you plot knowledge against productivity, you get two very different plots with or with access to the internet
23:45	bbloom	with the internet, your knowledge grows faster, but has this sine-wave format to it where you learn backwards wrong shit from the internet
23:45	bbloom	and then that sine wave is amplified times a million along the productivity axis
23:46	bbloom	in part because you spend too much time reading, but mostly b/c you fall down a whole into reddit
23:46	bbloom	… or irc....
23:46	bbloom	s/whole/hole
23:46	rbxbx	some people fall into a whole with reddit as well ;)
23:46	bbloom	sometimes i intentionally disconnect my internet connection when i'm working :-)
23:47	cemerick	rbxbx: You might be right, though that's changing significantly.
23:47	rbxbx	bbloom I've heard of many doing that... I've tried but found it difficult. Especially when working with a team.
23:47	cemerick	Text editor + terminal sorta sucks for Clojure, for example. Racket and factor have been producing killer environments for years. None enterprisey at all, at least in the pejorative sense.
23:47	bbloom	rbxbx: the trick with a team is to negotiate quiet hours
23:48	rbxbx	cemerick: s/enterprisey/academicy
23:48	rbxbx	;)
23:48	bbloom	"monday through wednesday, i am not going to check my email or respond to low priority interrupts between 1 and 6pm"
23:48	cemerick	rbxbx: bah
23:49	rbxbx	cemerick: I don't know what I'm talking about. You should likely ignore me.
23:49	bbloom	cemerick: tpope just halved the suck-factor of my text editor + terminal workflow
23:49	tpope	rbxbx, bbloom: counterpoint: http://weblog.therealadam.com/2012/12/08/focus-mode-considered-harmful/
23:50	technomancy	cemerick: it's changing because it's only recently that you've been able to perform interactive development on an IDE using itself maybe?
23:50	cemerick	rbxbx: nah, don't discount like that
23:50	bbloom	tpope: yeah, that too. i'm trying something like that now
23:50	rbxbx	bbloom tpope +1 to that. My workflow was janky at best.
23:50	technomancy	s/IDE/Java IDE/; obviously most things said about IDEs don't apply to smalltalk
23:51	bbloom	trying to "release" something every week
23:51	cemerick	bbloom: well, it's getting into semantics at some point. At which point is your text editor + terminal + JDI wire debugger + etc become an IDE...
23:51	bbloom	component, project, bug fixes, blog post
23:51	Raynes	technomancy: But smalltalk doesn't have an IDE.
23:51	bbloom	something like that
23:51	technomancy	Raynes: smalltalk is an IDE
23:51	Raynes	technomancy: It has its own dimension and planet and such.
23:51	cemerick	technomancy: Right; good tools are good, regardless of labels
23:51	Raynes	technomancy: You've got to give me time to finish being funny before you take me seriously brow.
23:52	technomancy	Raynes: brb switching to qwerty
23:52	cemerick	i.e. if we could all use something like Dr. Racket for Clojure, I'd be surprised if many among us stuck with vim/emacs/ccw/whatever
23:53	rbxbx	cemerick: old tools/habits/muscle-memory die hard, not to mention portability.
23:53	technomancy	cemerick: well, to a degree good tooling requires interactive development. back when you had to use Java to extend Eclipse, it was a lot less fun and productive; you would experiment less
23:53	bbloom	cemerick: i dunno, i don't think i'll ever leave vim unless i leave unix behind with it…
23:53	cemerick	technomancy: believe me, extending eclipse with anything other than Java is still full of suck
23:53	technomancy	oh =(
23:53	Raynes	cemerick: I'd be extremely surprised if a large portion switched.
23:54	technomancy	I thought ccw was leveled up beyond that by now
23:54	cemerick	technomancy: We do it with Clojure, but the API vocabulary overhead is huge
23:54	cemerick	It's probably a 50/50 split now
23:54	technomancy	ah, gotcha; because you're supposed to be writing it in a tool that does all kinds of autocomplete stuff, so reducing the surface area isn't a priority?
23:54	bbloom	IDEs, runtimes, and OSes just have too much in common....
23:54	cemerick	Laurent's working on putting userland hooks into it these days, so you can have the equivalent of a .emacs directory for ccw.
23:55	cemerick	technomancy: Yeah. Your head would fly off if you looked at it.
23:55	bbloom	i worked on visual studio…. let me tell you…people joke that emacs is an operating system…. it's not a joke
23:55	bbloom	visual studio is a poorly implemented operating system built on top of windows….
23:55	cemerick	Raynes: That'd be shocking to me. Dr. Racket blows the doors off of any Clojure environment around.
23:55	technomancy	the whole "it's not intended to fit in your head" paradigm of development
23:56	Raynes	cemerick: You underestimate how much I like having one environment for everything I use.
23:56	bbloom	I second what Raynes says. i don't only do Clojure. i do like 10 other languages in any given week :-P
23:56	bbloom	consistency counts.
23:56	rbxbx	Raynes you're not the only one, or things like smalltalk-80 wouldn't have existed
23:56	technomancy	cemerick: does Dr. Racket have two IRC clients, three MUAs, a couple jabber clients, version control integration for every VCS imaginable and a few in-editor shells?
23:57	cemerick	Raynes: given the differential between nrepl.el/SLIME and Dr. Racket, that's like saying you like carrying one saw for all of your carpentry needs.
23:57	Raynes	I think you just agreed with me.
23:57	tpope	really need that second irc client huh?
23:57	cemerick	Good luck knocking in that screw, I think was my point. :-P
23:58	Raynes	cemerick: I can use the butt of the saw for that.
23:58	Raynes	I can also write a screwdriver in elisp if I want.
23:58	cemerick	Damn, I just knew you were going to say that.
23:58	Raynes	shrug
23:58	cemerick	You're not going to write Dr. Racket in elisp. Sorry.
23:58	bbloom	see what happens tpope? you show up in here, making everyones lives better, and none of us can resist an editor war. it's terrible.
23:58	bbloom	:-P
23:58	Raynes	I said I'd write a screwdriver, sir.
23:58	cemerick	Anyway, my broader point was, best tool for the job, etc.
23:58	vsync	gnu emacs lisp or xemacs lisp? ;)
23:58	tpope	editor warmongerer
23:59	rbxbx	bbloom but who knew that war would be between Dr. Racket and Eclipse!
23:59	cemerick	M-x replicator "screwdriver, philips, 6" long, 1/4" wide head"
23:59	rbxbx	... er, I guess it's emacs now.
23:59	bbloom	rbxbx: us clojurians are ahead of the curve, even on irc flame wars
23:59	vsync	http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2008/04/die-heretic-scum.html