#clojure – 2012-12-09

2012-12-09

00:00	seangrove	I'm trying to build something around it, and it's alright, but there's going to have to be a somewhat substantial wrapper around it to make it fit what I want
00:00	Raynes	Was this seangrove's paste?
00:00	seangrove	Yeah
00:00	Raynes	Damn all of you who don't have user accounts.
00:01	Raynes	seangrove: You're famous now. I tweeted it and everything.
00:01	seangrove	The embedded javascript for refheap looks great Raynes
00:02	Raynes	Also, let this be a lesson for everyone: if your paste is public, I will one day use it for some demonstration somewhere. It's only a matter of time.
00:02	seangrove	but tomoj, when you get a chance, would love to hear your thoughts
00:02	tomoj	I guess branch is OK
00:02	tomoj	and when
00:03	seangrove	Hmmm, so bad compared to what, then?
00:04	tomoj	trying to get them in my repl so I can confirm they are broken :)
00:14	tomoj	right
00:15	tomoj	seangrove: https://www.refheap.com/paste/cf279b53c2f6168fa30ce1e0b
00:16	tomoj	if you do (.addCallback (.branch d) ...) instead, you get the, uh, correct results
00:19	seangrove	Sure, but isn't that expected behavior?
00:20	tomoj	in what sense? I expected it of Deferred, because I expected Deferred to be wrong :)
00:21	seangrove	Heh, in that the result is cascaded through callbacks sequentially
00:21	seangrove	Do you expect all callbacks to be called with the same value?
00:21	tomoj	yes
00:21	tomoj	Deferred seems like a deferred mutable value
00:21	tomoj	I want a deferred immutable value, naturally
00:22	seangrove	I see, I kind of saw it as analagous to ->
00:22	tomoj	if it's restricted to a lexical scope, maybe
00:23	tomoj	but the burden is on you to be careful not to expose the wrong Deferred and let others mutate it
00:24	tomoj	like (-> x inc inc inc) might be analogous to (-> d (.addCallback inc) (.addCallback inc) (.addCallback inc) .branch) ?
00:24	seangrove	Ah, as in someone else could attach a callback somewhere and potentially mess up any later callbacks you add?
00:25	seangrove	Or (doto (.branch d) (.addCallback inc) (.addCallback inc) (.addCallback inc))
00:26	tomoj	even after you branch, that branched thing is still a Deferred, so it's still broken :)
00:27	seangrove	hmm, interesting
00:27	seangrove	If you could only apply callbacks to a branched deferred unless you created it in a local scope, would that be better?
00:28	seangrove	Obviously not possible, but hypothetically
00:28	tomoj	unbranched, you mean?
00:29	tomoj	I think it's safe to do (.addCallback (.branch d) inc) no matter where d came from
00:29	seangrove	no, branched, so that you couldn't affect the original deferred from the pov of whoever gave it to you
00:29	tomoj	if you created d and are caring for it, then you might not need to call branch
00:29	seangrove	Yeah, that's right
00:29	seangrove	And if you hand it to someone else, they wouldn't be able to add a callback to it that would affect any of yours
00:30	seangrove	Effectively, they would have to call .branch on it first, and could then add callbacks on the newly-returned deferred
00:30	tomoj	yeah
00:30	seangrove	I suppose that's what you meant by immutable deferreds though ;)
00:30	tomoj	I think this is very relevant though I've only skimmed it https://gist.github.com/3889970
00:30	tomoj	if you're wrapping Deferred maybe you can make your wrapper safe
00:31	tomoj	personally I'm ignoring Deferred and implementing, uh, correct promises directly in cljs, then someday I'll provide some wrapper that converts a Deferred into a correct promise
00:32	seangrove	The problem I have is you can't implement deferred from the outside of functions
00:32	seangrove	For example, I can't pass an xhr request to a deferred and expect them to work together, unless I've built my own wrapper around both of them
00:33	seangrove	And then that wrapper won't work for any other library or code that doesn't conform to my specific patterns
00:33	seangrove	For example, I think you could probably implement something close to it by building something on deferreds, xhr, and goog.events, but it'd be more code for less effect than I'd like
00:34	tomoj	surprised XhrIo doesn't return a Deferred of a response
00:35	seangrove	Doesn't return anything :P
00:35	tomoj	yeah :(
00:36	seangrove	Presumably you could make a module that copied the innards of xhrio and returned deferreds... it'd be much nicer if it were included as a standard though
00:37	tomoj	what do you mean by 'pass an xhr request to a deferred'?
00:38	seangrove	(.callback my-deferred (my-xhr-fn))
00:40	seangrove	I have to have to something similar to: (defn my-xhr-fn [...] (if (success) (.callback my-deferred)))
00:40	seangrove	Like you said, if XhrIo returns a deferred, I think that'd work well
00:44	tomoj	well, dunno. but protocols may help with the "won't work for any other library or code" problem
00:44	tomoj	of course, only for other cljs libraries or code..
00:53	gaze__	yo! I can't find anything definining the behavior of carats in the documentation, just references (def ^:dynamic, for instance
00:53	gaze__	what do they do?
00:56	p_l	reader macro to set metadata stuff
00:57	tomoj	&(meta (read-string "^:dynamic []"))
00:57	lazybot	⇒ {:dynamic true}
00:57	tomoj	&(meta (read-string "^{:foo :bar} []"))
00:57	lazybot	⇒ {:foo :bar}
01:22	seangrove	tomoj: Yeah, I think protocols might be the way to go about it eventually, but just frustrating how much basic infrastructure will need to be built out
01:53	gaze__	say I have some macro that defines a symbol, and I want stuff inside the macro to be able to manipulate that symbol, without explicitly making reference to it
01:54	gaze__	using name# I guess assigns a special name
01:55	gaze__	and if I just remove the hash, it complains that it's not making reference to a qualified name
01:59	gaze__	or... is there a better way to do implicit arguments?
02:02	amalloy	$google clojure anaphora macro symbol
02:02	lazybot	[Unhygienic ("anaphoric") Clojure macros for fun and profit] http://amalloy.hubpages.com/hub/Unhygenic-anaphoric-Clojure-macros-for-fun-and-profit
02:02	amalloy	hey, that's me! anyway, gaze__, that's the name of the thing you're talking about, if i understand you
02:03	gaze__	YES
02:03	gaze__	thanks :D
02:13	tpope	bbloom: do you have a proposed solution? eval top level form?
02:19	gaze__	amalloy: I should actually just ask the question I mean to ask... let's say I want to have a macro called defx, where any time (go a) is called within it, a is appended to a list. The result of a definition of defx is to be the list.
02:20	gaze__	(defx foo (let [x 5] (go x) (go (+ 5 x))))
02:20	gaze__	then (foo) should be '(5 10)
02:22	gaze__	in my version I'm both defining an unhygenic symbol and trying to make a mutable bound variable... is there a more sensible way to do this?
02:27	amalloy	this is unpleasant, but there's nothing obviously better unless you're willing to really dive off the deep end and use continuations, which i suspect would do it
04:14	adxp	I'm getting a "Could not locate clojure/instant__init.class or clojure/instant.clj on classpath" error when trying to use fetch with cljsbuild. As far as I can tell, others have fixed this by upgrading to clojure 1.4 or cljsbuild 0.2.9. I'm using those already, though. Anyone have any ideas as to what else I could try?
04:15	tomoj	clojure-version is 1.4.0?
04:17	adxp	that's what's in my project.clj, and what's reported by manually running clj, yep. I'm still pretty new to clojure, so I'm not sure if there's anything else I should check...
04:17	tomoj	adxp: you have a new-ish version of leiningen?
04:18	adxp	running with --version reports "Leiningen 1.7.1 on Java 1.7.0_09 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM"
04:18	tomoj	Sgeo\|web: could you write (letrec [a [b] b [a]] [a b]) with it?
04:18	tomoj	that's pretty old
04:18	Sgeo\|web	This exists https://gist.github.com/486880
04:18	tomoj	adxp: but, since it's old, check to see which clojure jar is in lib/
04:18	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: I assume that some things would infinite loop
04:19	adxp	tomoj: clojure-1.4.0.jar is in lib/, but I can look at upgrading leiningen if that might help
04:19	tomoj	doubt it should help..
04:19	tomoj	but it would be a good idea in general
04:19	tomoj	probably..
04:20	adxp	ok, will do; thanks
04:20	tomoj	so the only other question I have is, if you upgraded from something older than clojure 1.4, did you restart the jvm since upgrading?
04:21	adxp	what do you mean by restart?
04:21	tomoj	well, where are you getting that error?
04:21	adxp	when I run "lein cljsbuild [auto / once]"
04:21	tomoj	oh
04:21	adxp	I did upgrade my JDK earlier, but I doubt that's related...
04:22	tomoj	that doesn't make any sense to me, sorry
04:22	adxp	the error?
04:22	tomoj	I mean I can't think of any explanation
04:22	tomoj	clojure/instant.clj is in my 1.4.0 jar
04:23	adxp	yeah, ditto
04:23	adxp	jar tf lib/clojure-1.4.0.jar \| grep instant \| head
04:23	adxp	clojure/instant/
04:23	adxp	hum.
04:23	tomoj	well, further down you should see clojure/instant.clj
04:23	adxp	yeah, that's there too
04:23	tomoj	`lein classpath` shows a dir with that jar in it?
04:24	tomoj	presumably..
04:24	adxp	yup
04:24	tomoj	maybe you just need to upgrade lein
04:24	tomoj	I could imagine that cljsbuild assumes lein 2
04:24	tomoj	not sure though
04:25	tomoj	not sure how that would cause your error, either
04:25	adxp	trying that now
04:26	adxp	huh, worked. thanks!
04:28	gaze__	how do I inject an array of stuff into the arguments of something? like... I have (defn x [a & b] ...) and I want b to take the values ['p 'q]
04:28	Sgeo\|web	Ugh, I think to do what I really want would require writing my own sort of container
04:28	tomoj	container like an IDeref?
04:29	Sgeo\|web	Yes
04:29	Sgeo\|web	Although come to think of it, maybe I'm imagining a lazy letrec when that's not what letrec typically is
04:29	amalloy	$findfn list 'a 'b ['p 'q] '(a b p q)
04:30	lazybot	[]
04:30	amalloy	what the hell, findfn. the answer is apply
04:30	Sgeo\|web	,(+ 1 2)
04:30	clojurebot	3
04:30	Sgeo\|web	,(apply + [1 2])
04:30	clojurebot	3
04:30	gaze__	sweeeet. Thanks :D
04:30	Sgeo\|web	,(apply + 1 2 [3 4])
04:30	clojurebot	10
04:33	Sgeo\|web	What special forms besides quote take lists as arguments that are not treated like code?
04:35	tomoj	I've been pondering letrec for asynchronous IDerefs, like maybe (letrec [a (merge (periodic 1) (postpone Math/PI a))] a)
04:39	borkdude	someone asked me: what are the new features for clojure 1.5. I told him: reducers and a lot of new threading operators… am I right and what else?
04:40	tomoj	(which has occurrences at 0,1,2,3,pi,4,pi+1,5,pi+2,6,pi+3,2pi,7,pi+7,2pi+1.. I think?)
04:41	tomoj	borkdude: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/secure/attachment/11744/changes-draft-v11.md
04:42	borkdude	tomoj many tnx
04:45	Sgeo\|web	as->'s doc seems inconsistent
04:45	Sgeo\|web	It sounsd like it does do threading, although it claims it does not
04:56	tomoj	as->^
04:56	tomoj	?
04:56	tomoj	oh, sweet
04:56	tomoj	I didn't like 'test->
04:58	tomoj	Sgeo\|web: the doc is inconsistent with the name?
04:59	Sgeo\|web	"then binds name to that result, repeating for each successive form"
04:59	Sgeo\|web	So the name doesn't stay the expr throughout the as->, it changes, as a sort of threading
05:00	Sgeo\|web	Which, while possibly useful in some circumstances, is inconsistent with the stated goal "Instead it allows the user to assign a name and lexical context to a value created by a parent threading form."
05:00	Sgeo\|web	In order to do that goal, you'd have to do something like (as-> some-name (do ...))
05:00	Sgeo\|web	If you want to use multiple forms
05:01	amalloy	Sgeo\|web: (-> foo inc blah whatever (as-> bar (for [x bar] ...)))
05:01	Sgeo\|web	amalloy: the issue pops up when there's more than 2 forms (the name and a form) in the as->
05:01	tomoj	you could say that is a kind of threading
05:02	Sgeo\|web	I would
05:02	amalloy	that's not an issue, man. if you want more threading, you didn't need as-> in the first place
05:02	tomoj	I think the changes md means that it is not the syntactic threading of ->
05:02	amalloy	i'm showing you the intended usage of as->, and why it doesn't make sense to continue threading the form
05:03	Sgeo\|web	amalloy: my point is that the documentation says that it continues threading (kind of, just in a different way)
05:03	Sgeo\|web	Suppose you want to do side-effects in the as->
05:06	borkdude	aren't all these extra threading macro's adding extra "syntax" to clojure, I wonder if it's worth it?
05:07	borkdude	but then again, I don't really mind
05:08	gaze__	how do I get a defmacro to put multiple things at the toplevel?
05:08	borkdude	gaze__ use multiple defns in it?
05:09	borkdude	gaze__ generally a bad thing, unless you are writing a framework or smth
05:09	tomoj	generally a bad thing then too :P
05:10	borkdude	hehe
05:10	Sgeo\|web	gaze__: do
05:10	tomoj	why does clj-http parse the url, never look at it, then just convert it back to a url when doing the request?
05:10	gaze__	yeah it feels kinda dirty. But... I need after each definition to push the name of the function and the actual symbol into a table
05:10	tomoj	"for ring compliance" I think, but.. really? :/
05:10	gaze__	and it looks like defmacro is variadic and everything it sees it just pushes
05:11	gaze__	so... cool :D
05:11	Sgeo\|web	demacro is variadic because it takes in code, just like defn does
05:11	Sgeo\|web	Code which can consist of multiple forms
05:11	Sgeo\|web	Outputting multiple forms is impossible, but wrapping it in do works fine
05:11	Sgeo\|web	,(do (println "A") (println "B")) ; one form
05:12	clojurebot	A
05:12	clojurebot	B
05:12	tomoj	oh, actually, I see some reason for it
05:12	tomoj	e.g. :query-params -> :query-string conversion
05:15	gaze__	http://pastebin.com/pdzUSBvv
05:15	gaze__	here's what I'm doing
05:15	gaze__	does all this seem reasonable?
05:16	gaze__	lotta mutable stuff... would like to have less mutable stuff
05:16	gaze__	but I don't see much way out of it
05:17	Sgeo\|web	a) You're not going to be outputting the defn
05:17	Sgeo\|web	b) caller and trxn will be visible from the body. Do you really want that?
05:18	gaze__	a) Ah... I'll wrap it in a do
05:18	gaze__	b) caller, yes. trxn, no
05:18	gaze__	but I don't see a way around having trxn visible to go
05:50	zamaterian	Is it possible to get syntax highlightning in lein repl ?
05:53	tomoj	it's probably possible, but there is no support for it now, and it seems like it would be a lot of work. it would probably be much easier to get syntax highlighting at a repl embedded inside an editor that can already do clojure syntax highlighting
05:54	zamaterian	tomoj, thx (i
05:55	zamaterian	tomoj, i'm using vim+vimclojure+foreplay - but uses lein repl for all my prototyping..
05:57	rodnaph	hi - i've copied some java source files into my leiningen project src directory (with namespace folders) then set the :java-source-path, but leiningen doesn't seem to be doing anything with them (the classes are not available if i start a repl) - can anyone help?
06:00	andrewmcveigh	rodnaph: I think you have to compile them first, but I've never worked with java & lein together.
06:03	tomoj	`lein javac` maybe?
06:04	tomoj	dnolen: would you be interested in a patch which copies cond-> and friends from 1.5 into cljs/core.clj (to be pulled only after 1.5 is out, I suppose)?
06:06	rodnaph	ah - got it! the property has changed in lein 2.0 :E https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L210
06:07	rodnaph	thanks both
06:14	Sgeo\|web	I wonder, if it's possible to take a threading macro and pass it in and convert it to a let-like thingy
06:15	Sgeo\|web	Threading macros are really just cheap hacks around the lack of nice monad syntax
06:15	Sgeo\|web	Or, alternatively, they are in a sense a nice monad syntax
06:16	Sgeo\|web	(bind mv f) == (-?> mv (f))
06:16	Sgeo\|web	I think?
06:17	Sgeo\|web	Can I go the other direction, from a bind into a threading macro? Kind of, but wouldn't be a perfect implementation of a threading macro
06:18	Sgeo\|web	I think
06:19	Sgeo\|web	(-?> mv (a b c)) == (bind mv #(a % b c))
06:19	Sgeo\|web	People might be more willing to use monads if they took the form of threading macros
06:19	Sgeo\|web	To me, both do syntax and threading feels "intuitive"
06:21	Sgeo\|web	clojure.algo.monads has monads be first-class values, which is generally useful. My big objection to it is with one of the monad implementations, not with the core concept behind it itself
06:21	Sgeo\|web	Although I do dislike needing to use defmonadfn
06:22	Sgeo\|web	If I were to write my own monads library, I would just use dynamically-scoped variables
06:24	tomoj	so you could write a (defn foo [x] (m-> x f)) and then use it in different monads?
06:24	tomoj	(I'm not familiar with defmonadfn)
06:24	Sgeo\|web	defmonadfn is the macro you need to use to use bind and return in your own functions with clojure.algo.monads
06:25	Sgeo\|web	(
06:25	Sgeo\|web	(iirc)
06:26	Sgeo\|web	clojure.algo.monads uses a bunch of macros to try to have bind and return effectively be lexically scoped
06:27	ambrosebs	if anyone's bored, I recorded some experiments with Typed Clojure https://vimeo.com/55196903
06:28	ambrosebs	Obviously rough, but feedback welcome.
06:28	Sgeo\|web	ambrosebs: will Typed Clojure allow for polymorphism on the return type of a function?
06:29	ambrosebs	Haskell type class style? no
06:29	Sgeo\|web	Will Typed Clojure allow for the semantics of a program to rely on being run with Typed Clojure?
06:29	Sgeo\|web	Oh, ok, darn.
06:29	Sgeo\|web	Thank you
06:29	ambrosebs	I'm definitely interested in this area though.
06:30	ambrosebs	It seems like TC is a starting point for such a thing.
06:32	Sgeo\|web	I wonder what sort of things one can do with bind but no return
06:32	tomoj	while you're here, why not put the annotations in metadata? because you want to be able to annotate things which can't have metadata, I guess?
06:33	Raynes	ambrosebs: What's the problem with return type polymorphism?
06:33	ambrosebs	tomoj: I thought about it, but I don't really want to rely on runtime behaviour much. eg. what if the var doesn't exist yet?
06:34	ambrosebs	Raynes: Firstly, Typed Clojure doesn't affect runtime behaviour at all atm
06:35	ambrosebs	Raynes: Further than that, I'm not sure of the details, but I assume something like Haskell's inference + type classes is needed.
06:35	ambrosebs	The most practical issue is how to best affect runtime behaviour: how to communicate with the compiler.
06:36	Sgeo\|web	Pass the type to a function that somehow indicates that it wants access to the type that it should be outputting
06:36	Sgeo\|web	As in, make it be an argument
06:36	Sgeo\|web	Or maybe dynamic variable?
06:37	ambrosebs	It's a hard problem. But my trail of though was operating directly on the AST before it gets compiled.
06:38	Raynes	ambrosebs: Call it cheeky a few times and I bet it'll get easier.
06:39	ambrosebs	Raynes: just run it backwards.
06:40	Sgeo\|web	Would there be any significant problems to just having a dynamic variable return
06:40	Sgeo\|web	And bind I guess
06:40	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: You might be on the right track.
06:41	tomoj	if all you're trying to do is monads, maybe?
06:41	Sgeo\|web	clojure.algo.monads's macrology scares me
06:41	Sgeo\|web	I'm not particularly thinking in terms of TC
06:42	Sgeo\|web	But I also want to have Functor and Applicative stuff, and those don't rely on re... Functor doesn't rely on return type polymorphism
06:43	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: so who binds the dyn vars?
06:44	Sgeo\|web	The user. In, say, a with-monad macro, and some macros that might take a first-class monad
06:44	Sgeo\|web	Such as domonad
06:46	ambrosebs	Interesting.
06:46	ambrosebs	Are you thinking more like protocol-monads than algo.monads?
06:47	Sgeo\|web	Actually, I think it's more like algo.monads than protocol-monads, because I'm not looking at the types of the arguments, just using functions in a structure passed in from a higher-up-the-call-stack caller
06:49	Sgeo\|web	ambrosebs: also, you missed my musings about threading macros and monads
06:49	ambrosebs	I'll have a look
06:49	tomoj	domonad is like let?
06:49	tomoj	(syntactically)
06:50	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: similar, yes
06:50	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: I think I'm missing something. Is there any inference going on, or have we pushed the work to the user?
06:50	Sgeo\|web	ambrosebs: pushed the work to the user
06:51	ambrosebs	ok
06:51	Sgeo\|web	,(-> nil (and 1 2 (do (println "Side-effect") true)))
06:51	clojurebot	nil
06:51	Sgeo\|web	,(-> true (and 1 2 (do (println "Side-effect") true)))
06:51	clojurebot	Side-effect
06:51	clojurebot	true
06:51	Sgeo\|web	Wait, and still operates on values, not on code, it just expands into code that operates on values
06:52	Sgeo\|web	,(macroexpand '(and a b c))
06:52	clojurebot	(let* [and__2241__auto__ a] (if and__2241__auto__ (clojure.core/and b c) and__2241__auto__))
06:52	Sgeo\|web	,(macroexpand '(and a b))
06:52	clojurebot	(let* [and__2241__auto__ a] (if and__2241__auto__ (clojure.core/and b) and__2241__auto__))
06:52	Sgeo\|web	,(macroexpand '(and a))
06:52	clojurebot	a
06:56	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: wouldn't dynamic vars be a perf issue vs. algo.monads local bindings?
06:57	ambrosebs	sounds slower
06:57	tomoj	(also, no bound-fn in cljs :/)
06:57	Sgeo\|web	perf issues ... I guess people really care about that sort of thing :/
06:59	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: I thought Clojure was supposed to be fast :)
06:59	Sgeo\|web	<elliott> so you can only use one monad at once
06:59	Sgeo\|web	Not entirely sure what he means
06:59	ambrosebs	I'd suspect protocol monads would be the fastest.
07:00	tomoj	is that conal?
07:00	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: no
07:06	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: what exactly do we need to know to be able to statically generate the required code?
07:06	Sgeo\|web	?
07:07	Sgeo\|web	Need to know the expected type of the result of return
07:08	Sgeo\|web	And/or have the code somehow know a function to use when return is called
07:08	ambrosebs	I assume langs like Haskell would have some sort of implicit arg?
07:09	ambrosebs	(sorry, forgot exactly the issue, makes sense now)
07:10	Raynes	ambrosebs: You should learn Haskell.
07:10	ambrosebs	Raynes: agreed.
07:11	Sgeo\|web	ambrosebs: you could say that return has an implicit arg, passed to it from the type checker
07:11	Sgeo\|web	(return is just an ordinary function, btw, if that wasn't clear)
07:12	ambrosebs	Got it. return is polymorphic and the type checker infers and instantiates the correct types, which then affect runtime
07:13	Sgeo\|web	Right
07:13	ambrosebs	Yes, I have scratched my head for awhile as how to achieve this in TC.
07:14	ambrosebs	Could we possible make a new kind of function?
07:14	ambrosebs	*possibly
07:15	ambrosebs	Does everything here basically occur in a domonad?
07:17	Sgeo\|web	No. domonad is basically clojure.algo.monads's macro for Haskell's do syntax
07:17	Sgeo\|web	My idea is that with-monad would supply the information that the type-checker would normally supply. But you can use bind and return outside of any special syntax (at least, you could if the type-checker were supplying what it needed to to the runtime)
07:18	borkdude	I'm experimenting a bit with linuxes on a vps… when I use Arch on a 256 I see the memory is almost all used (with free), but when I try Debian on a 512 MB it's also almost used.. does debian really use twice as much when doing nothing, or does linux have a weird way of using memory that's not allocated?
07:18	borkdude	(this is off-topic, but I do want to host a clojure app on it ;))
07:19	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: Ok. Sounds like a lot of extra work.
07:19	Raynes	borkdude: Arch for a server is kinda like jumping off a bridge, or so I hear.
07:19	Raynes	It feels good on the way down, but eventually you hit bottom and die.
07:19	borkdude	Raynes yes, I heared this
07:20	borkdude	Raynes that's why I'm trying debian now
07:21	alex_baranosky	what's the best place to report a bug with the new reducers?
07:23	tomoj	curious, what's the bug?
07:24	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: perhaps if we wrap each position that needs dyn vars provided with some macro, Typed Clojure can generate the right bindings for you.
07:24	Sgeo\|web	dyn vars are just a substitute for having something like TC generate bindings
07:25	ambrosebs	oh right.
07:25	ambrosebs	That was an optimistic suggestion :)
07:25	ambrosebs	You should implement your idea.
07:26	ambrosebs	I'd love to see it in action.
07:26	Sgeo\|web	What would make sense is for all uses of return to accept an extra argument and TC fills it in
07:27	ambrosebs	Sgeo\|web: yes.
07:28	Sgeo\|web	I have Javascript stuff I was supposed to be writing tonight
07:28	Sgeo\|web	Ugh
07:33	wei_	what happened to the s3 utils in noir?
08:05	borkdude	isn't this a bit weird, why memory usage increases after openjdk install?
08:05	borkdude	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7439
08:10	borkdude	I guess the +/- buffers cache is most important after reading up a bit on this
08:16	bonega	If I have a def-style macro, what are my options for getting doc-tools to pickup my docstrings?
08:16	bonega	I basically have something that evaluates to a defn-form
08:17	bonega	(doc thesymbol) works
08:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
08:17	bonega	but the tools for generating documentation of course fails
09:16	borkdude	any advice on how to start and stop "java -jar someleinuberjar.jar" in a a script in /etc/init.d in debian?
09:17	yerinle	is there a way to import multiply java classes in one command (import '(java.util *)) ?
09:18	yerinle	or do I have to import each class separately?
09:28	gfredericks	separately, though you can save space with (import '[java.util List Map ...])
09:33	borkdude	I guess this is kind of how people do it?
09:33	borkdude	http://www.shayanderson.com/linux/add-startup-script-or-service-with-linux-on-bootup.htm
09:33	borkdude	killall -v java… hmm
09:33	cmn	this is what pid files are for
09:34	borkdude	cmn tnx for the pointer, will read about it
09:34	cmn	just look under /var/run
09:36	borkdude	cmn yeah, it looks like I have to create my pid file manually for a .jar running?
09:37	cmn	your distribution may have helpers
09:38	borkdude	cmn I could also use this, what do you think? lsof -t /home/borkdude/twitter-service-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
09:38	cmn	on Debian and derivatives, start-stop-daemon(8) can do this for you
09:38	borkdude	cmn I'm using Debian
09:39	cmn	that would bind your startup script to a specific version of the service
09:41	borkdude	cmn yes, I could resolve that with a symbolic link, or isn't that your point?
09:42	borkdude	cmn whatever, start-stop-daemon looks better
09:42	cmn	it would not let your script upgrade
09:42	cmn	as you'd be searching for something that's not running
09:57	jonasen	dnolen: I couldn't find any examples of (usage of) core.logic/cvar. I tried https://www.refheap.com/paste/7336 but that didn't work as I expected.
10:23	jonasen	dnolen: looking at https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/logic.clj#L4026 I also tried https://www.refheap.com/paste/7449 without success
11:08	yedi	does anyone have examples of people using clojure to do ML/AI?
11:19	mpenet	yedi: prismatic
11:20	yedi	right
11:20	yedi	i wish they would write more about their experiences with it
11:20	mpenet	yeah, they used to be more open. They removed all their repo from github
11:22	yedi	really?
11:22	yedi	whackkk
11:22	mpenet	they used to publish under getwoven (or woven) and then clj-sys orgs
11:22	mpenet	there are some forks left here and there, but it's > 2yo
11:23	mpenet	ex: https://github.com/seancron/work
11:25	arcatan	zenrobotics uses clojure to do ML/AI. they haven't written about their experiences either, though.
11:31	gfredericks	is joda the best way for doing math on dates (without time)?
11:34	mpenet	gfredericks: less painfull yes (using clj-time), when it's trivial stuff I just convert to long and do it manually, depending on the context
11:42	gfredericks	a long representing a day?
11:42	mpenet	a java.util.Date instance
11:42	mpenet	but as I said, for trivial stuff
11:43	mpenet	,(.getTime (java.util.Date.))
11:43	clojurebot	1355070867468
11:43	gfredericks	okay, so representing milliseconds
11:43	mpenet	yes
11:43	gfredericks	I'd rather avoid the redundant information
11:45	gfredericks	joda has LocalDate, which seems to be the closest to what I want
11:45	gfredericks	otherwise I'd just roll my own. local date math is a lot simpler than time.
11:51	borkdude	gfredericks wasn't there a library for this, clj-time?
11:52	borkdude	it just wraps joda
11:56	gfredericks	right of course
11:57	gfredericks	borkdude: the readme doesn't suggest it handles bare dates explicitely
11:58	borkdude	gfredericks don't know how well it's maintained either, never really used it
12:02	gfredericks	woah; the clj-time project.clj uses numeric keywords (e.g., :1.2)
12:02	gfredericks	I think I saw an issue on jira complaining that the reader accepts those
12:46	devn	gfredericks: i think the documentation for edn makes that complaint null
12:55	solussd	does anybody know how to tell the clojurescript compiler to minify?
12:58	solussd	nevermind, looks like setting :pretty-print to false does it
13:07	bsteuber	solussd: you might want advanced mode
13:08	solussd	yup, i set it to pretty-print false when compiling advanced mode (compiling clojurescript code via noir-cljs)
13:08	devn	bsteuber: if you're not using external javascript libraries definitely use :optimizations :advanced
13:08	seangrove	Jesus, there are too many videos to watch from the clojure eXchange
13:08	devn	lol
13:09	solussd	using advanced + pretty-print took a 780KB clojurescript file down to 149KB. I think that's noticable to clients. :)
13:09	bsteuber	:)
13:09	solussd	(+pretty-print false)
13:15	gfredericks	solussd: I bet it gzips quite well as well
13:15	solussd	no doubt
13:15	gfredericks	I gzipped an advanced CLJS file that was about 3x the size of jquery, but when they were both gzipped they were almost the same
13:16	solussd	clojurescript is a godsend.. I hate writing javascript- totally breaks my flow. Clojurescript + the fetch XHR library makes it almost fun. :)
13:23	gfredericks	my `lein repl` keeps timing out while it compiles
13:24	bsteuber	sometimes happens to me, too
13:24	bsteuber	I just do lein compile first then
13:32	ivan	someone on the mailing list needs to know which Closure Library jar actually contains third_party
13:32	ivan	or perhaps he must make his own or something
13:50	dnolen	tomoj: yes about the patch for the new threading operators
13:51	dnolen	jonasen: you need to look at how cvars are used in the simple unifier - I don't really want to explain any high level interfaces much because they are bound to change soon.
13:56	gfredericks	I feel like I've had this issue before. I enter a data-reader literal at the repl, and it prints a runtime exception. But then *1 is bound to the correctly read form.
13:57	gfredericks	(the exception claiming that it doesn't know about the tag I used)
13:59	jonasen	dnolen: I'll take a look, thanks
14:02	dnolen	jonasen: basically cvars aren't really meant to be anywhere except to support the simple unifier - if you're using run* they are completely unnecessary.
14:02	dnolen	"meant to be used", I mean.
14:03	amalloy	gfredericks: i wouldn't be too surprised to hear it's a problem of nrepl (or whatever repl frontent) having a different set of data readers than your app
14:03	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah I started thinking that, because anything not involving the repl seems to work fine
14:03	dnolen	jonasen: because of that I don't believe I've done any work to guarantee they are actually run in the general case - if you look at the simple unifier you'll see there is some extra code to ensure they are actually run.
14:06	jonasen	dnolen: ok, so when using run* i should drop down to 'project' instead
14:06	dnolen	jonasen: no
14:07	dnolen	jonasen: you don't need project if you have constraints
14:07	dnolen	jonasen: what I'm saying is that cvar is not a part of the API at all
14:07	dnolen	jonasen: it's an implementation detail for the simple unifier
14:08	dnolen	jonasen: it sounds like your use case is simple and you're already using run* in kibit right?
14:11	dnolen	jonasen: if that's the case try defc which is likely to become something people can actually use, (defc numberc [x] (number? x)), (run* [q] (numberc q)), (run* [q] (numberc q) (== q "foo"))
14:22	jonasen	dnolen: what's the difference between constraints and core.logic/pred?
14:23	dnolen	jonasen: do you mean predc?
14:23	jonasen	no, I mean https://github.com/jonase/core.logic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/logic.clj#L2005
14:23	jonasen	It's the "non-relational", right?
14:24	dnolen	jonasen: yes that's non-relational, clause order matters.
14:25	dnolen	jonasen: constraints basically defer their execution until some or all arguments have become ground. so they allow you to work relationally.
14:26	dnolen	jonasen: now that we have constriants any usage of project is pretty much discouraged.
14:27	jonasen	I see. Could you give a minimal example of using constraints with the unifier?
14:27	rodnaph	interop question - how do i call a java method with no args? (.getMessages folder) is giving me the error that no property getMessages exists...) have read the docs and it seems this should work?
14:28	gfredericks	yep, should work
14:29	rodnaph	gfredericks: ok thanks, must be something else i'm doing then. will keep trying.
14:30	dnolen	jonasen: I don't have a minimal example because I haven't decided how that is going to work.
14:30	dnolen	jonasen: Kevin and I wrote something up that I think could work but I need to implement it.
14:31	samflores	I believe that it was asked millions of times, but what's the most idiomatic way to load libs/namespaces: require or use?
14:32	gfredericks	require
14:33	jonasen	dnolen: are you considering (? x number?), or some other syntax? Can I read what you have written, link?
14:33	zilti	gfredericks: Why that? When using :as, aren't they pretty much the same?
14:34	gfredericks	zilti: the use functionality has been added to require, so I think use is quasi-deprecated
14:34	samflores	gfredericks: thanks.
14:35	zilti	gfredericks: Thanks.
14:35	zilti	I have a library here that's not in a repository. I placed it in projectroot/lib, how do I tell Leiningen to use it?
14:36	gfredericks	leiningen really really wants that library in a maven repo
14:36	zilti	But I really really don't want to create a repo just for that jar file
14:37	gfredericks	you have to argue with leiningen about it for twenty minutes first
14:37	dnolen	jonasen: 90% sure it'll work by passing a map of lvars or sets of lvars -> constraints
14:37	gfredericks	zilti: maven has a local repo on your computer
14:38	dnolen	jonasen: http://gist.github.com/4156747
14:38	zilti	gfredericks: Ah, yes, the .m2 dir..
14:39	gfredericks	zilti: there are maven commands for adding jarfiles there
14:39	gfredericks	I think install-file is the main one
14:39	gfredericks	you'll need a pom
14:43	jonasen	dnolen: thanks for your help. I was confused about A) what cvars were meant to be used for (I thought you could use them interchangeably with lvars) and B) that I could use constraints (today) with the unifier. Things are clearer now.
14:43	jonasen	dnolen: I'll take a look at the unifier proposal
14:45	dnolen	jonasen: sorry for the confusion. yet constraints work great today when working directly w/ the run* interface. the high level interface is still getting sorted out.
14:45	dnolen	yet -> yes
14:46	jonasen	and if I want to use constraint with (run* ...) I should pre-define my constraints with (defc ..)
14:54	zilti	lein-localrepo plugin looks POMising.
15:03	jonasen	dnolen: Is this the correct usage of predc (It seems to work): (run* [q] (== 3 q) (predc q number?))? And should predc be used instead of the old pred?
15:06	bordatoue	in clojure how do i implement a queue where insertion at the rear and deletion at the head
15:06	gfredericks	there's a queue data structure
15:06	gfredericks	,(into clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY [2 3 4])
15:06	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@6b58c280>
15:06	bordatoue	gfredericks: can you make use of list to attain this behaviour
15:07	gfredericks	bordatoue: if you're interested in implementing one you could google the baker's queue
15:07	gfredericks	otherwise the PersistentQueue type should work fine
15:07	gfredericks	lists will not naively work, as you probably suspect
15:08	bordatoue	thanks gfredericks
15:09	jonasen	dnolen: What is the difference between (defc numc [x] (number? x)) and (defn numc [x] (predc x number?))?
15:11	bordatoue	gfredericks: i couldn't find information on persistentQueue, i have been searching clojure datastructure,http://clojure.org/data_structures is this a part of clojure data structure
15:11	gfredericks	it's built in, just not well documented
15:11	mthvedt	does clojure/lein support remote debuggers?
15:11	gfredericks	,(-> clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (conj 7) (conj 3) (conj 4) (pop))
15:11	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@8d94be90>
15:11	gfredericks	,(-> clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (conj 7) (conj 3) (conj 4) (pop) seq)
15:11	clojurebot	(3 4)
15:12	gfredericks	bordatoue: you can get the empty queue as per above, and use conj/pop/peek as necessary
15:13	bordatoue	gfredericks: is there any way to know what interfaces this type inherits and the methods inherited by the interfaces
15:13	gfredericks	,(ancestors clojure.lang.PersistentQueue)
15:13	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.Seqable java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.IPersistentStack java.util.Collection clojure.lang.Obj ...}
15:14	gfredericks	bordatoue: the clojure source is always available as well
15:14	bordatoue	cool, is this the only datastructure that inherits IPersistanceStack
15:14	gfredericks	it'll be in there with the java code
15:15	gfredericks	no vectors do as well
15:15	gfredericks	in fact it is odd to me that a queue would want to be considered a stack
15:15	gfredericks	oh and lists are stacks
15:16	bordatoue	gfredericks: so a pop on queue pops from head whereas pop on a vector from the rear
15:16	gfredericks	yep
15:17	gfredericks	it pops from whence it is efficient to pop
15:17	bordatoue	cool, thanks for the information. Its been helpful
15:17	gfredericks	no probalo
15:24	dnolen	jonasen: I haven't made any promises about anything in 0.8.0
15:24	dnolen	jonasen: but predc is a little bit more flexible then using defc.
15:26	dnolen	jonasen: defc is more likely to survive - and yes you should prefer a constraint based solution like predc / defc over pred
15:33	mpenet	bordatoue: you can also use this fn https://gist.github.com/2053633 to get an overview of the ancestors. ex: https://gist.github.com/4121044
16:04	thorwil	is there a way to take a var as argument to a function and to use the varname to build a keyword in the function?
16:05	gfredericks	like you want to turn #'first into :first?
16:06	Bronsa	, (keyword (.sym #'+))
16:06	clojurebot	:+
16:07	bbloom	Bronsa: or with metadata rather than interop:
16:07	bbloom	,(-> #'+ meta :name keyword)
16:07	clojurebot	:+
16:07	Bronsa	oh, that's better
16:08	thorwil	Bronsa: that does not work within a fn
16:09	gfredericks	here is the worst way I can think of to do it on short notice:
16:09	gfredericks	,(-> #'first str (clojure.string/split #"/") last clojure.string/reverse (str ":") clojure.string/reverse read-string)
16:09	clojurebot	:first
16:09	Bronsa	thorwil: are you trying to do eg (fn [x] (-> x var .sym keyword))?
16:10	gfredericks	presumably worse methods could be developed if it was important
16:10	thorwil	Bronsa: yes
16:10	Bronsa	you can't do that
16:10	gfredericks	oh oh are we about to learn about macros?
16:11	hyPiRion	gfredericks: an interesting method, indeed.
16:11	thorwil	gfredericks: what i want is trivial with macros
16:11	gfredericks	thorwil: oh is that why you were asking about functions specifically?
16:11	thorwil	i just thought for a moment there might be a more flexible fn based approach
16:12	thorwil	yes
16:12	gfredericks	either the function has to accept a var instead of a symbol, or you need to use resolve to turn a symbol into a var -- but know that the latter is namespace-relative
16:14	hyPiRion	,((fn [foo] (-> foo meta :name keyword)) #'+)
16:14	clojurebot	:+
16:14	hyPiRion	With the name itself (e.g. +) it's impossible.
16:14	hyPiRion	As a function, that is
16:16	thorwil	hmm, that might do it
16:16	thorwil	thanks folks, gotta get back to this tomorrow. and likely read up on smybols/var/resolve :)
16:38	tgoossens	how can i do this: (defn add [& args] (+ ?????)) (i know i can use reduce for such things but that's not the point
16:39	ssideris	tgoossens: what are you trying to achieve?
16:39	tgoossens	(defn create [class* & args]
16:39	tgoossens	(new class* args))
16:40	tgoossens	how can i get the args right?
16:40	tgoossens	concrete example
16:40	ssideris	I think you may be looking for (defn add [& args] (apply + args))
16:40	ssideris	yeah apply should work
16:40	ToxicFrog	This may be a stupid question but couldn't you just do: (def create new) ?
16:41	kmicu	, (doc apply)
16:41	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
16:41	kmicu	tgoossens: ok?
16:41	tgoossens	hmm myes
16:41	tgoossens	i think i get it
16:41	kmicu	, (+ 1 2 3 4)
16:41	clojurebot	10
16:41	kmicu	, (apply + [1 2 3 4])
16:41	clojurebot	10
16:42	Raynes	Yikes https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/pulls
16:42	Raynes	:\
16:42	Raynes	Guess that's where all pull requests go to die.
16:42	kmicu	submitted to cgrand/enlive 2 years ago...
16:43	tgoossens	,(apply new String)
16:43	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: new in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:43	tgoossens	why doesn't that work but
16:43	mpenet	apply wont work with new
16:43	tgoossens	(new String "a")
16:43	tgoossens	,(new String "a")
16:43	clojurebot	"a"
16:43	tgoossens	why?
16:43	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
16:43	kmicu	why new? :/
16:43	tgoossens	i'm making a tool in clojure for manipulating java objects to study them
16:44	tgoossens	don't be afraid i'm not trying to do OO in clojure :-)
16:44	ToxicFrog	tgoossens: "new" is a special form, not a function or macro
16:44	mpenet	special form for java interop, I think you at least need to know the number of args, and then use a lambda to wrap the calls
16:44	mpenet	or use some java magic I don't know about
16:44	ToxicFrog	,(doc new
16:44	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:44	ToxicFrog	,(doc new)
16:44	clojurebot	Huh?
16:44	ToxicFrog	Dammit clojurebot
16:44	tgoossens	lol
16:45	tgoossens	tardis.core=> ,(doc new)
16:45	tgoossens	-------------------------
16:45	tgoossens	new
16:45	tgoossens	(Classname. args*)
16:45	tgoossens	(new Classname args*)
16:45	tgoossens	Special Form
16:45	tgoossens	The args, if any, are evaluated from left to right, and
16:45	tgoossens	passed to the constructor of the class named by Classname. The
16:45	tgoossens	constructed object is returned.
16:45	tgoossens	Please see http://clojure.org/java_interop#new
16:45	tgoossens	nil
16:45	ToxicFrog	Yes, I know, I was trying to get clojurebot to display that for your benefit.
16:45	Raynes	dsantiago: tinsel is still faster than enlive and capable of the same things, right?
16:45	tgoossens	i know
16:45	tgoossens	and thats why i posted it
16:45	tgoossens	because mr clojurebut didn't want to :p
16:45	kmicu	tardis x])
16:46	dsantiago	Raynes: I don't know, has enlive been extensively rewritten? I haven't heard otherwise.
16:46	Raynes	Nope.
16:46	tgoossens	i don't have any idea on how to achieve what i want atm :p
16:46	Raynes	dsantiago: You still maintain tinsel, right? I mean, when it needs maintained of course.
16:46	dsantiago	Raynes: It's capable of doing many of the same things, but not all.
16:46	dsantiago	I do consider it maintained. Don't know of any problems, can't think of anything to add. Works for me.
16:47	kmicu	tgoossens: can you describe what do you want?
16:47	Raynes	dsantiago: I need to use something to transform some markdown code that has been transformed to HTML before storing it in the db.
16:47	kmicu	, (map #(new String %) ["a" "b" "c"])
16:47	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c")
16:47	dsantiago	Raynes: I think tinsel is probably not a good match for that.
16:48	Raynes	That's sad.
16:48	tgoossens	kmicu: i want a function (create classname & parameters)
16:48	dsantiago	tinsel is for pre-parsed templates. Things that aren't going to change. It actually invokes the compiler on each template to make it go fast.
16:48	Raynes	Enlive has 11 open pull requests and a version range.
16:48	dsantiago	That is going to be much slower than just parsing and interpreting the template.
16:48	dsantiago	For a one-shot, I mean. It's a pay-up-front to go fast a million times type model.
16:50	tgoossens	i'll just experiment until i have something that works
16:50	tgoossens	probably have to write a macro
16:50	tgoossens	a nice challenge for me :p
16:50	tgoossens	:)
16:53	Raynes	dsantiago: I'm gonna see if I can do a little work on a fork of enlive. Also, hickory is cool. Thank heavens for jsoup, amirite?
16:54	sshack	Are there any decent split testing libraries for clojure?
16:54	dsantiago	Raynes: I was going to suggest you pull a bultitude on it, if that's the case.
16:54	dsantiago	And yes, jsoup is fantastic.
16:54	Raynes	dsantiago: I have this nasty habit of deciding to maintain projects and rewriting half of them and stuff and then hating myself in the morning.
16:55	dsantiago	Raynes: I have a very similar problem.
16:57	ghengis	where do clojure programmers usually publish release announcements?
16:57	mpenet	ghengis: on the mailing list
16:57	ghengis	cool, thanks
16:59	tomoj	where did "ANN: foo" come from?
16:59	ToxicFrog	tgoossens: does this work?
17:00	tomoj	oh, just.. usenet, says wikipedia
17:00	ToxicFrog	,(defmacro create [class* & args] `(new ~class* ~@args)) (macroexpand '(create String "a" "b" "c"))
17:00	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:00	tgoossens	wow
17:00	ToxicFrog	,(printf "eat me clojurebot")
17:00	clojurebot	eat me clojurebot
17:00	tgoossens	cool
17:01	ToxicFrog	Anyways that appears to work for me locally
17:01	tgoossens	what does the ~@ exactly?
17:01	mpenet	tgoossens: unsplices the sequence [a b c] becomes a b c
17:01	tgoossens	interesting
17:01	ToxicFrog	That's an "unquote-splice", replaces the symbol with its sequence-contents.
17:02	ToxicFrog	user=> (macroexpand '(create String "a" "b" "c"))
17:02	ToxicFrog	(new String "a" "b" "c")
17:02	ToxicFrog	Plain "~" would cause it to expand to (new String ["a" "b" "c"])
17:02	tomoj	you can't apply that macro, though..
17:03	tgoossens	hmmm
17:03	tgoossens	i get what it does
17:03	ToxicFrog	Hmm, point.
17:03	tgoossens	i don't get how it does it
17:06	amalloy	&'`(new ~class ~@args) ;; maybe instructive?
17:06	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote new)) (clojure.core/list class) args))
17:07	amalloy	i mean, that is literally how ~@ works. `(new ~class ~@args) is identical to (concat (list 'new) (list class) args), or to (list* 'new class args), if you like
17:09	tomoj	(defn document [] js/document)
17:10	tomoj	compiles to: function document() { return document }
17:10	tomoj	expected?
17:10	ToxicFrog	tgoossens: can you expand on what you don't get about it? Did amalloy's explanation help?
17:11	tgoossens	toxicfrog: oh. Its just i have no experience at all with macro's so i was a bit confused
17:11	tgoossens	(and still am)
17:11	ToxicFrog	tgoossens: aah.
17:12	tgoossens	but i should just read the documentation
17:12	ToxicFrog	So, (defmacro create [class* & args] `(...)) is saying "when expanding macros, replace (create ...) with the `(...)"
17:13	ToxicFrog	Within that `(...), ~foo means "in the generated code, insert the value of foo" and ~@foo means "insert the contents of foo, which should be a list"
17:13	p_l	definitely better than syntax-rules :)
17:14	ToxicFrog	So, (create String "a" "b" "c") results in macro expansion with class* being String and args being ["a" "b" "c"]
17:14	tgoossens	mmmyes
17:14	ToxicFrog	`(new ~class* ~args) would expand into (new String ["a" "b" "c"]); using ~@args instead "unpacks" args, so you get (new String "a" "b" "c")
17:15	tgoossens	cool
17:16	ToxicFrog	(I think the fundamental thing to "get" here is that a macro is a function that takes some arguments and returns a code fragment - an abstract syntax tree - based on those. The `(...) is the AST to return; ~ and ~@ let you "fill in" parts of that with values at macro expansion time, rather than when the result of the expansion is actually executed)
17:17	tgoossens	i think i start to get it :)
17:17	tgoossens	*i'm starting
17:18	ToxicFrog	<3 macros
17:18	tgoossens	yeah its really amazing
17:18	tgoossens	once you start learning them
17:18	tgoossens	in java for example
17:19	tgoossens	when something was not possible
17:19	tgoossens	you had to think long time how you can "patch" / workaround that problem
17:19	tgoossens	here
17:19	ToxicFrog	And the fact that in lisp you're basically writing everything in ASTs already makes them go down much smoother than the equivalent in something like metalu.
17:19	ToxicFrog	*metalua.
17:19	tgoossens	"lets add a new feature!"
17:21	tgoossens	g2g
17:21	tgoossens	so long and thanks for all the fish ;)
18:23	jweiss	can the ns macro just create an alias to a ns without :require'ing it? (just for using namespaced keywords)
18:30	cemerick	jweiss: doesn't look like it. refer itself doesn't accept vectors (necessary for :as) anyway.
18:38	tomoj	into-kv: https://www.refheap.com/paste/f83eb49d4520e7522014c7395
18:38	tomoj	bblöom: ^
18:38	tomoj	but, seqs of pairs are not reduce-kv
18:38	tomoj	should they be, somehow?
18:39	tomoj	i.e. seq implements IKVReduce by assuming the values are pairs?
18:40	tpope	cemerick: do you have time to discuss this issue we've been going back and forth about in the channel?
18:41	cemerick	tpope: About 5 minutes. Hadn't been following the channel tho; do you mean the github issue?
18:41	tpope	yes the github issue
18:41	tpope	bbloom: ^
18:41	bbloom	tpope: yeah, i just saw the email
18:42	tomoj	bblöom: nvm, since you wanted (into {} (partition 2 kvs)), this is irrelevant
18:42	Raynes	!last
18:42	Raynes	Wrong channel.
18:42	tpope	cemerick, bbloom: the session business I demonstrated is weird, but since clone works, it's not really a big deal
18:43	tpope	the main issue is where is out and err disappearing to
18:43	bbloom	cemerick: i was surprised to see string keys rather than keywords. i dunno anything about nrepl, but i was about to warn tpope and his fledging clojure skills that keywords and strings aren't interchangable, but then i saw your example used them, so maybe they are interchangeable for nrepl :-)
18:43	cemerick	tpope: the sid in your example is nil, which is bizarre
18:44	cemerick	bbloom: they're turned into keywords by the time middleware/handlers see them
18:44	bbloom	cemerick: makes sense
18:44	cemerick	they're strings if you're using the default bencode transport
18:44	tpope	cemerick: err, it wasn't when I was playing with it interactively
18:44	cemerick	s/strings/strings on the wire
18:44	tomoj	though (into-kv {} (partition 2 kvs)) would work if (partition 2 kvs) were IKVReduce.. hmm
18:44	cemerick	tpope: spooky
18:44	bbloom	cemerick: gotcha.
18:45	tpope	cemerick: in fact, I
18:45	cemerick	tpope: re: "parsing"; you really need to consume things in terms of messages, not e.g. grepping for "done", etc.
18:45	cemerick	dunno how that percolates into vimscript, etc
18:45	tpope	just added a println on sid and it's set for me
18:45	tpope	the error that comes back mentions the same sid
18:46	cemerick	very spooky
18:46	cemerick	tpope: what rev of nREPL?
18:46	tpope	0.2.0 beta 9
18:46	cemerick	hrm
18:46	cemerick	tpope: try 0.2.0-RC1
18:47	cemerick	I quashed some wonkiness between b9 and b10/RC1
18:48	tpope	cemerick: same
18:48	cemerick	hrmph
18:48	cemerick	tpope: I'll sink into it tomorrow morning
18:48	tpope	cemerick: so nrepl/client just slurps up everything available within 100ms, correct?
18:48	tomoj	";;aseqs are iterable, masking internal-reducers" in clojure/core/protocols.clj. so this impl for ASeq relies on the undefined choice of that over the Iterable impl? interesting...
18:48	tpope	or whatever timeout you pass in
18:48	cemerick	tpope: right
18:49	cemerick	though, it's not slurping; it's a seq of responses
18:49	tpope	okay
18:49	tpope	so what happens when something takes longer than 100ms to eval?
18:49	tpope	I guess what I'm getting at is how does a client know when to print a prompt again?
18:50	cemerick	you'll get an empty seq
18:50	cemerick	For interactive usage, most clients just wait indefinitely
18:50	cemerick	though I understand you can't do that
18:50	tpope	well my client isn't in clojure, so I'm not sure how "empty seq" translates
18:50	cemerick	oh, no data, EOF
18:51	tpope	my socket should actually eof?
18:51	cemerick	The timeout is critical for noninteractive use cases, where you don't want a tool blocking on getting e.g. code completion data
18:51	cemerick	tpope: sorry, being fast and loose with terminology
18:52	cemerick	there will be no data
18:52	tpope	I'm trying to find the difference between "no data" and "no data yet"
18:52	cemerick	Always the latter
18:52	cemerick	This is related to the (tricky) semantics of "done"
18:53	cemerick	e.g. if you've sent an eval message with a given ID, and it spins up a future that prints stuff, when do you send a "done" message?
18:54	tpope	well, I kind of have to give up on that case. which is why I keep going back to a "when does a client print its prompt"
18:54	cemerick	right now, nREPL's eval middleware prints "done" when all forms sent in the code have evaluated, but messages with the same ID may be seen later with :out and :err entries
18:54	tpope	okay
18:54	tpope	stuff that happens after that "done" I'm going to have to give up on
18:54	bbloom	cemerick: done-ness is tricky in general, then cancel-ing is even more tricky… clojure's futures lack a notion of a process tree
18:55	cemerick	bbloom: right; for exactly that reason, nREPL's interrupt won't touch futures, threads, queued agent sends, etc.
18:56	tpope	all this aside, the blocking issue is out and err. If I send an eval request on a new request with an existing session, I don't get out and err back
18:56	tpope	new connection*
18:57	bbloom	at the risk of venturing off onto a tangent, there's some work going on surrounding listenable futures and future seqs. i'm pushing for process trees :-)
18:58	cemerick	tpope: well, something's wonky there.
18:58	cemerick	First, I'm going to figure out why I'm seeing something different than you with the code you posted.
18:58	cemerick	tpope: got to run; I'll be back tomorrow morning.
18:59	tpope	okay cheers
19:00	bbloom	tpope: a simple @cemerick spurred him to help. maybe i'll @kotarak and we can get the VimClojure runtime files "decomplected" too :-)
19:00	tpope	yeah I've been meaning to reach out :
19:00	tpope	what with my snarky README and all
19:00	bbloom	tpope: i can just open a ticket to eliminate dependency on VimClojure, this way i'm the bad guy :-P
19:01	tpope	:)
19:03	tpope	bbloom: I'd love for the static versions to ship with vim
19:03	tpope	it's weird that he started them separate, but then complected them
19:03	bbloom	tpope: i'll mention that in the ticket. i don't know enough about the vim distro processes to help there
19:04	tpope	bbloom: you email bram and say "hey I wrote these runtime files I think should be included" and he replies like "k"
19:04	bbloom	tpope: heh, simple enough
19:04	bbloom	tpope: https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay/issues/12
19:05	tpope	oh wow, you weren't kidding
19:07	bbloom	tpope: i've inadvertently been the guy who writes the inflammatory email so many times, that i've learned when to intentionally apply to quasi-inflammatory email
19:07	bbloom	it's a curse.
19:12	tpope	time to play good cop I guess
19:17	tpope	okay guys! so I'm actually trying to learn clojure myself
19:17	bbloom	tpope: happy to help. if you have any questions, fire away
19:18	tpope	I thought a good first task might be "parse a netrc". it basically looks like machine foo.bar login baz password quux over and over
19:18	tpope	simple enough, right?
19:18	tpope	so here's my first stab: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7456
19:19	bbloom	(doc into)
19:19	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
19:19	bbloom	,(seq {:x 1 :y 2})
19:19	clojurebot	([:y 2] [:x 1])
19:20	bbloom	,(into {} [[:x 1] [:y 2]])
19:20	clojurebot	{:x 1, :y 2}
19:20	bbloom	tpope: ^^ that should help you clean up your reduce block
19:20	tpope	let me try!
19:21	tpope	okay, that was simple. no more outer reduce
19:21	bbloom	tpope: new pastie?
19:22	tpope	bbloom: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7457
19:22	bbloom	(doc ->>)
19:22	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
19:22	bbloom	(doc ->)
19:22	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
19:23	bbloom	those are useful for flattening the nesting of multistep proceedures
19:23	bbloom	so you can have netrc-tokenize, reduce, and into all at the same level and appear in the order that they are evaluated
19:23	tpope	okay, I know the threading macros. I'm missing how to apply them here
19:24	tpope	that's enough for me to take a stab
19:26	ToxicFrog	tpope: rather than going (into (reduce (netrc-tokenize ...))), you can (->> ... netrc-tokenize reduce into) or similar.
19:29	bbloom	we'll just keep providing one hint at a time until it's pretty!
19:31	tpope	okay I think I got it: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7459
19:33	tpope	the peek and pop business was what felt particularly ugly
19:34	bbloom	tpope: yup
19:34	bbloom	peek and pop aren't that common to use
19:34	bbloom	let me see…. hm
19:36	tpope	I should add that I have additional requirements that may well render this moot :)
19:36	bbloom	tpope: eh, the learning won't be moot
19:36	tpope	yeah I agree
19:36	tpope	which is why I didn't lead with "help me bolt more crap onto this"
19:36	bbloom	so i'm not familiar with netrc files
19:37	tpope	if you've ever used heroku, you have one
19:37	bbloom	heh ok
19:37	tpope	all they are is login/passwords for hostnames
19:37	bbloom	the goal is to get a map of machine name to login credentials?
19:37	amalloy	i think you want to partition your input, tpope. instead of trying to do everything in the reduce step on a single k/v, split it up into chunks between each instance of "machine"
19:37	tpope	yes
19:38	bbloom	the goal is to get something like {"mylaptop" {:username "brandon" :password "abc123"}}
19:38	bbloom	?
19:38	tpope	bbloom: yeah
19:38	tpope	I have tests actually, let me paste them
19:38	bbloom	tpope: amalloy is right, netrc-parse should be broken down into a part that parses individual records, and one that parses the whole thing
19:39	tpope	I agree
19:39	bbloom	each individual record should be [machine-name credentials]
19:39	bbloom	and then it's trivially to map that over a file and into {}
19:42	tpope	tests: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7461
19:42	tpope	first two pass, third is a new requirement: a "default" machine
19:43	tpope	I bring up the default machine now because this two pass thing seems like a good time to introduce it
19:44	tpope	okay, so how would I split it into machines?
19:45	bbloom	,(clojure.string/split "machine foo login bar machine baz login quux" #" +")
19:45	clojurebot	["machine" "foo" "login" "bar" "machine" ...]
19:45	tpope	got that. my re-seq was basically the same thing
19:45	bbloom	oh dur, yeah
19:46	bbloom	(doc partition-by)
19:46	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Applies f to each value in coll, splitting it each time f returns a new value. Returns a lazy seq of partitions."
19:46	bbloom	you can use sets as a predicate:
19:46	bbloom	,(#{:foo} :bar)
19:46	clojurebot	nil
19:46	bbloom	,(#{:foo} :foo)
19:46	clojurebot	:foo
19:46	tpope	hmm
19:47	bbloom	,(partition-by #{"machine"} ["machine" "foo" "bar" "machine" "baz"])
19:47	clojurebot	(("machine") ("foo" "bar") ("machine") ("baz"))
19:47	bbloom	(doc take-nth)
19:47	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a lazy seq of every nth item in coll."
19:47	tpope	bbloom: what if someone's login or password is machine?
19:47	bbloom	tpope: heh, good point....
19:47	amalloy	tpope: do you have a sample input somewhere? i haven't really been following but this isn't a hard problem if i know the inputs
19:48	tpope	amalloy: I can make one, sec
19:48	bbloom	i don't know enough about the format, i would have to read the man page to see how machines are actually parsed...
19:49	bbloom	amalloy: i'm trying to avoid giving him a solution, he's trying to learn :-)
19:50	bbloom	tpope: oh, i didn't realize that each field is labeled
19:50	bbloom	(parition 2 ["machine" "foo" "login" "bar" "password" "baz" "account" "quux"])
19:51	bbloom	(parition 2 ["machine" "foo" "login" "bar" "password" "baz" "account" "quux"])
19:51	bbloom	,(parition 2 ["machine" "foo" "login" "bar" "password" "baz" "account" "quux"])
19:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: parition in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:51	bbloom	er, typing is hard.
19:51	bbloom	,(partition 2 ["machine" "foo" "login" "bar" "password" "baz" "account" "quux"])
19:51	clojurebot	(("machine" "foo") ("login" "bar") ("password" "baz") ("account" "quux"))
19:51	bbloom	then you can use partition-by and your predicate can be on the first element
19:51	bbloom	or split-with and a loop
19:52	tpope	amalloy, bbloom: https://gist.github.com/4247721
19:53	tpope	the macdef stuff is gross. you can omit it if it's simpler
19:54	tpope	bbloom: okay, that's pretty reasonable, although it breaks down at the "default" cases
19:54	tpope	case*
19:54	tpope	bear with me, ssh has gone to lag city
19:57	amalloy	yeah, if you want to support "default" rather than "machine default" or something, i don't think anything pretty works well. possibly the best you can do is a reduce over each token, where the reduce is running a miniature little state machine that reminds you what to do with the next token
19:58	tpope	well, it's strangely reassuring to hear that the elegant solution I couldn't find probably doesn't exist
19:59	bbloom	#{"default" "machine"} is a reasonable predicate to split by
19:59	tpope	is it easy to show me what that state machine might look like?
20:00	tpope	bbloom: true, and even/odd sorts out which it is. but you're back to the "what if their login is machine?" problem
20:00	bbloom	oh, dur, again… default doesn't take an argument
20:01	tpope	it's such a simple yet infuriating format
20:01	bbloom	heh, yeah, b/c you can just imagine that the underlying original implementation is a manual C loop :-)
20:01	bbloom	anyway, ignoring "real" parsing strategies
20:01	tpope	btw, curl and wget both read this file, which is what makes it handy for api credentials
20:02	bbloom	a simple loop is the way to go
20:02	tpope	does this mean I have to use recur?
20:02	bbloom	maybe? :-P
20:02	bbloom	so imagine a simple recursive decent parser for a moment
20:03	bbloom	you have some token stream and some AST accumulator
20:03	bbloom	but here, you don't want to mutate the token stream
20:03	bbloom	so each parse production function should return two values: the AST as transformed, and the new token stream
20:04	bbloom	so if you have ["machine" "foo" "machine" "bar"] and you parse-machine on that, you should get back [{"foo" {}} ("machine" "bar")]
20:05	bbloom	if you use that calling convention, you can write a simple recursive solution
20:06	tpope	okay
20:06	bbloom	then you can loop/recur at the top level until your input token stream is empty
20:07	tpope	sounds totally possible
20:07	tpope	do you have any thoughts about macdef?
20:08	bbloom	tpope: what's it do exactly?
20:08	tpope	bbloom: slurps up till the next double newline as a string
20:09	tpope	bbloom: so in that example, you'd get {"ftp.server" {... :macdefs {"somemacro" "cd somewhere\n..."}}}
20:09	bbloom	ah, i see… hm
20:09	bbloom	you need double-newline in your token stream :-/
20:10	tpope	I mean, I bet virtually nobody needs this
20:10	tpope	but if I was to, say, package it up and release it, it'd be nice if it implemented the full spec
20:10	bbloom	so #"\S+" probably isn't sufficient for re-split
20:10	tpope	yeah
20:10	tpope	I'd think you'd need to switch to some sort of reader api
20:11	bbloom	significant whitespace is annoying for parsers :-P
20:12	amalloy	tpope: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7462 is a state-machine impl, which doesn't handle macdef at all
20:13	jonasac	am i insane for thinking that always aliasing imports and always qualify imported functions with the alias ?
20:13	jonasac	is a good idea
20:13	bbloom	jonasac: nope
20:14	bbloom	use is mainly for interactive work and some DSL-ish libraries
20:14	tpope	amalloy: awesome man
20:15	amalloy	and it's just splitting on whitespace, so if there's some significance to newlines vs spaces you probably need to toss the whole thing in the trash
20:15	tpope	amalloy: I see you raising plain old Exception. is that common for this sort of miscellaneous stuff?
20:15	tpope	amalloy: no significance except macdef :/
20:15	bbloom	tpope: unfortunately, yes :-/ (it's annoying for CLJS portability)
20:15	amalloy	oh, i dunno. something else might be better, but i rarely bother with anything more than Illegal(State\|Argument)Exception
20:16	jonasac	bbloom: good, seen alot of code that don't do that tho, makes it harder to read
20:16	amalloy	and it wasn't clear which of those this is
20:17	tpope	amalloy: thanks for this. it may take me a bit to grok it
20:20	amalloy	you're welcome. keep bringing the light of clojure to the vim savages
20:21	tpope	:)
20:23	bbloom	parsing always winds up harder than you expect
20:23	bbloom	i don't even bother with hacky parser attempts any more, i go straight to formal grammars :-)
20:25	bbloom	tpope: although it's arc instead of clojure, there is a good example of parser combinators that Hodapp mentioned here: http://awwx.ws/combinator/toc
20:26	bbloom	but i haven't found a parsing library for clojure that i really like yet… i've tried a few
20:27	tpope	neat
20:28	bbloom	combinators are fun
20:29	bbloom	a long time ago i made a trivial bullet hell game out of combinators: http://code.google.com/p/bulletcombinators/
20:29	bbloom	powerful technique
20:29	tpope	so long ago that google code was in fashion!
20:30	bbloom	nov 2009
20:30	bbloom	:-P
20:30	tpope	okay, maybe not in fashion :P
20:30	bbloom	heh
20:31	bbloom	i was still working for msft then…. git was practically unusable on windows still
20:31	bbloom	so glad that period of my life is over....
20:34	brehaut	bbloom: the biggest problem with clojure parsing libraries is they all eventually fade into disrepair
20:40	bbloom	we've got max, max-key, but no max-comparer or similar?
20:45	amalloy	bbloom: i think that function is called sort
20:46	bbloom	well it's (first (sort …))
20:46	bbloom	but sort is less efficient really, since max can be implemented O(N)
20:46	bbloom	even if sort is lazy, i don't think first sort gives you linear time
21:00	stuartsierra	`sort` is not lazy.
21:01	stuartsierra	You can implement "max-comparer" with reduce.
21:07	jonathanwallace	i'm attempting to use rich hickey's cartesian product with a couple of ranges which is giving me a lazy sequence like ((1 0) (1 -1)...)
21:07	jonathanwallace	i'd like to then use the first element in that sequence apply a function to it but i believe first element is being evaluated which is generating an error
21:12	jonathanwallace	i'd like to apply(map?) a function onto each element returned by cartesian-production function (found here https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/2ede388a9267d175bfaa7781ee9d57532eb4f20f/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/combinatorics.clj#L107)
21:12	jonathanwallace	cmeiklejohn: it was good sharing a cab with you at rubyconf!
21:13	Apage43	(map somefn (cartesian-product …)) ?
21:15	cmeiklejohn	jonathanwallace: Oh, totally!
21:16	cmeiklejohn	Small world :)
21:17	Apage43	jonathanwallace: depending on what you're trying to do you may just want for
21:17	Apage43	,(for [x [1 2 3] y [4 5 6]] (str x "," y))
21:17	clojurebot	("1,4" "1,5" "1,6" "2,4" "2,5" ...)
21:26	jonathanwallace	cmeiklejohn: heh, yep
21:28	jonathanwallace	Apage43: when i try (map + (cartesian-product ..)) i get an error :(
21:28	jonathanwallace	,(map + (cartesian-product (range -1 2) (range -1 2)))
21:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cartesian-product in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:29	jonathanwallace	but not that error :)
21:29	Apage43	,(map (partial apply +) [[1 1] [1 2] [1 3]])
21:29	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
21:31	Apage43	cartesian-product returns a seq of seqs, so map + was calling + on seqs, instead of numbers
21:31	bbloom	stuartsierra: that's precisely what i did, i called it max-by: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7463
21:32	Apage43	I've needed that several times
21:32	jonathanwallace	Apage43: thank you so much
21:32	jonathanwallace	i'm only one month (maybe 4 hours total) and was ignorant of partial
21:33	jonathanwallace	s/only one month/only one month into learning clojure/
21:33	tomoj	there is also https://github.com/chrismgray/clojure-heap-sort
21:33	tomoj	unfortunately not published anywhere
21:34	tomoj	useful when you want a lazy seq instead of just the biggest element
21:34	Apage43	or perhaps a top-N, I'd guess
21:36	tomoj	I'd guess a strict top-N could be done more quickly directly than with a heap sort, dunno though
21:36	amalloy	wow, he's using a single vector to simulate a tree instead of just using an actual tree? really dedicated to performance, or slavishly transliterating from C, i wonder
21:37	tomoj	rewrite it and publish it, please :)
21:38	Apage43	there's a lot of existing writing on doing heaps that way, I expect it's not a perf thing.
21:39	amalloy	tomoj: i wrote lazy-shuffle; lazy-sort is someone else's problem :P
21:46	tomoj	(take-shuffled n coll) is statistically equivalent to (take n (shuffle coll)) ?
21:48	amalloy	tomoj: indeed, provided (<= n (count coll))
21:49	amalloy	i don't really remember why i wrote it as take-shuffled instead of just lazy-shuffle
21:51	aaelony	On large data, I've found it faster to do something like (def random-int [upper-bound] (.nextInt (Random.) upper-bound))
21:51	aaelony	if i remember correctly...
21:51	tomoj	so you can either have the output lazy (lazy-shuffle), or the input lazy (reservoir sampling). but not both, I assume?
21:52	tomoj	I think you really don't want to create a new Random every time
21:52	aaelony	fine.
21:52	aaelony	but rand-nth I've found to be really slow
21:53	tomoj	maybe because it counts the coll every time?
21:53	tomoj	..plus the nth every time
21:54	aaelony	yeah, unless there's a nice way to memoize it. but even so, sometimes i'd rather not count something very very large
21:54	tomoj	in that case, I think you want reservoir sampling?
21:54	tomoj	but then it seems you have to decide ahead of time how many you want to pick..
21:55	aaelony	i'm content with picking a random number like above
21:55	tomoj	where do you get the upper bound if you don't count?
21:55	aaelony	I may know it already
21:55	aaelony	or something large enough to suffice, that i know exists
21:56	amalloy	rand-nth is, as expected, egregiously slow for anything that is not both counted and indexed, but is pretty reasonable if you have that condition
21:57	aaelony	that's my experience too
21:57	tomoj	random-int seems a tiny bit faster than rand-int if you don't recreate the Random every time
21:57	tomoj	s/a tiny bit/moderately/
21:58	aaelony	for me just separating the getting of the random int and then using it to get an nth has been faster
21:59	aaelony	ideally there's an even faster way
21:59	amalloy	tomoj: you could probably have the input and output both lazy, if you can (a) count the input, and (b) produce the nth input item on demand without needing any other inputs
21:59	aaelony	perhaps best is to compute a set of random ints and then asking for the nth
21:59	aaelony	when needed
22:00	tomoj	if you count the input, you don't have the input lazy (or you don't have what I meant when I said "input lazy")
22:01	amalloy	certainly you can't work on an input that is a lazy-seq
22:01	tomoj	assuming you want lazy output, right?
22:02	amalloy	i guess what i'm imagining is really just equivalent to (map f (lazy-shuffle (range n-items))
22:02	amalloy	ie, a function to produce the nth item, and knowledge of the upper limit
22:03	aaelony	but, isn't (range n-items) wasteful and slow if n-items is large?
22:03	tomoj	would be interesting if (range n) were IIndexed
22:04	gfredericks	tomoj: so it'd have to be a special seq type, no?
22:04	tomoj	right
22:05	tomoj	which means you have to go add it to all your protocols.. :(
22:05	gfredericks	it certainly could be, but if you're ever in a situation where you need that then you're doing it weird :)
22:05	amalloy	my patch to make range foldable is similar to making it indexed
22:05	amalloy	gfredericks: not at all
22:05	gfredericks	amalloy: what? you disagree with something I said about clojure?
22:06	amalloy	clojurebot: note the date and time
22:06	clojurebot	multimethods are http://clojure.org/multimethods
22:06	tomoj	amalloy: how? there's no r/nth, and r/drop will still be O(n), yes?
22:06	gfredericks	amalloy: so anyhow I'm curious
22:06	amalloy	tomoj: but the same steps are involved. to fold it in chunks, you have to be able to ask for the nth through mth items
22:07	tomoj	I see, but that functionality is not exposed in a way that lets you skip in O(1)
22:07	tomoj	since there's no IDrop or whatever
22:07	Sgeo\|web	How many threading macros are there out there? As in, Enlive's do-> for example
22:08	amalloy	yeah
22:08	Sgeo\|web	How many macros are there that are like threading macros except treating some values specially
22:08	gfredericks	Sgeo\|web: well if you count libraries then it's difficult to give an exhaustive answer
22:08	Sgeo\|web	Are there likely to be a lot
22:09	nightfly_	Probably
22:09	Sgeo\|web	:o)
22:09	Sgeo\|web	Given such a macro, it's easy to write bind...
22:12	Sgeo\|web	The other direction is probably a very good idea too, a nice easy to understand way to use monads
22:15	brehaut	type annotations for conj are crazy
22:15	tomoj	the special treatment is that if the last step returned an m v, the next step is automatically bind instead of normal invoke?
22:18	tomoj	does that cause trouble related to m (m a)?
22:28	frozenlock	Raynes: A little Noir question. On the top of your head, any ideas why when I use (flash-get :some-key), it returns something for two retrievals, instead of one like mentioned in the docs?
22:29	Raynes	No idea. It shouldn't.
22:29	Raynes	I never saw that behavior.
22:30	frozenlock	Hmm... so it's _very_ probably in code.
22:30	frozenlock	Thanks
22:36	Raynes	frozenlock: If you can't figure it out, try to get a small reproduce case and create an issue on the lib-noir project.
22:41	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: hmm?
22:42	Sgeo\|web	Which direction are we talking? Making a threading macro from a monad? Each step in the threading is automatically bind
22:42	Sgeo\|web	Hmm, although I guess that might be inconvenient in some cases?
22:43	Sgeo\|web	For the maybe monad, can treat nil as nothing, everything else as Just whatever
22:43	Sgeo\|web	For the Just Nothing case, we make a special type called Escape
22:43	Sgeo\|web	(Escape. nil) corresponds to Just Nothing
22:44	Sgeo\|web	Instead of Just (Escape. nil)
22:44	Sgeo\|web	And you can escape escape, etc.
22:45	frozenlock	Raynes: Before I do, could you tell me if I'm missing something important here? Is there a need to be on a different page or something? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7465
22:46	Raynes	Oh. OH.
22:46	frozenlock	oh?
22:46	Raynes	frozenlock: Are you expecting that after the first call to flash-get, it'll vanish?
22:47	frozenlock	Well.. yes
22:47	Raynes	Yeah, that's how it used to work. Now it works for one request. Meaning, you can get the value multiple times, but it goes away after that request.
22:47	frozenlock	Oooooh :)
22:47	Raynes	frozenlock: I'll fix the dcos.
22:47	Raynes	docs*
22:49	Sgeo\|web	What special forms besides quote take lists and don't treat them like code?
22:49	frozenlock	I will just make my own with the session/swap! then. Thank you for the explanation!
22:50	Raynes	frozenlock: I released 1.3.0 tonight and Chris will be pushing the updated website… soon.
22:51	frozenlock	wait--- you mean 1.3.0 NOT beta4? :P
22:51	Raynes	I do.
22:51	Raynes	<3
22:51	Raynes	Nothing has changed from the last beta though.
22:52	Raynes	It needed to be a final release so we could update all the documentation.
23:00	Sgeo\|web	Hmm, auto-return like I envisioned could really suck in some circumstances
23:01	tomoj	I've been struggling with auto-return too
23:01	tomoj	I think it could sometimes require satisfies? checks?
23:01	tomoj	..which are slow
23:16	sshack	Raynes any major changes in 1.3.0?
23:18	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: my concern isn't performance
23:18	Sgeo\|web	tomoj: my concern is, what happens when you give it whatever, and suddenly you accidentally give it a list (say, if you're in the list monad), and instead of acting like you expect it to, it treats it specially
23:19	Sgeo\|web	Why should your code need to check "Oh, and if it's a list, do this extra thing"