#clojure – 2012-12-11

2012-12-11

00:00	Raynes	It isn't my fault cemerick is dumb.
00:00	rbxbx	bbloom that's why I like y'all. Weirdies from all walks of life, coming together to talk about important things. Like how everything sucks.
00:00	bbloom	but luckily, we're armed with the word "decomplect" let's decomplect the shit out of all those fancy live compiler support features and move that shit into libraries that nrepl and friends can expose to any damn editor you choose
00:00	technomancy	tpope: sure, because the first one wasn't that good
00:01	cemerick	Raynes: You cut me deep, man.
00:01	technomancy	cemerick: my point is that getting a Dr. Racket-alike for editing Clojure only covers a tiny sliver of why people use Emacs
00:01	rbxbx	tpope: to hop back to that article you linked ages ago I totally agree. I do think a deadline without distraction is probably better though... ie: false dichotomy?
00:02	tpope	rbxbx: if I'm reading twitter at work, the problem isn't that twitter is too easy to read at work
00:02	bbloom	and now with fressian and datomic and distributed systems and all that stuff on rich's radar, simpler service oriented stuff is going to come into the vernacular. that can only be a good thing for editors :-P
00:02	Scriptor	if anything, Dr. Racket for clojure might get a lot of eclipse/other ide users
00:02	Scriptor	maybe even a few vim users, though I have no idea how key bindings work on it
00:02	rbxbx	tpope: okay. I'm sold. When I'm in my flow I could give a fuck about the latest cat gifs on twitter.
00:02	Scriptor	but one tool/one job doesn't seem like it's prevalent in Dr.
00:02	cemerick	technomancy: Right, whole-system hackability. I get it.
00:02	n_b	(speaking_from_ignorance "I thought Dr.Racket was just a customised emacs install with the equivalent of vimtutor")
00:02	rbxbx	or could not, rather.
00:03	rbxbx	n_b: are you not confusing it with mozart/oz ?
00:04	n_b	rbxbx: 've been up so long at this point I've honestly no idea. Shouldn't be commenting at all
00:04	technomancy	not that I'd mind using an OS written in Clojure; I just think it's at least half a decade from being usable by the adventurous
00:04	cemerick	My problem is I'm an unprincipled, disloyal type. I'll switch tools at the drop of a hat, if something better comes along. Hackability is actually a downside for me in that scenario, insofar as I don't want to lock myself into anything in particular.
00:05	cemerick	n_b: most certainly not an emacs install
00:05	tpope	tell me about it
00:05	Scriptor	might it not be more efficient to change the tool itself to fit you better rather than a whole new environment?
00:05	tpope	try locking your very identity to it too!
00:06	cemerick	tpope: The first step is to stop digging. But, finish foreplay, first, thanks. ;-)
00:06	bbloom	cemerick: yeah, too much customization can kinda lock you in
00:06	bbloom	but dammit man, vim bindings are deep in my brain
00:06	rbxbx	cemerick pros and cons, pros and cons. The fact that an individual like Tim can come along and have his first Clojure project make a significant splash would not be so had he not so deeply locked himself into Vim (along with others!)
00:06	bbloom	and my fingers
00:07	rbxbx	but go on, lording your freedom over us.
00:07	rbxbx	:p
00:07	bbloom	i'm a total prisoner
00:07	bbloom	:q!
00:07	Scriptor	bbloom: same, it's a little unwieldy since clojure and other lisps really lend themselves better to sexpr-based editing
00:07	Scriptor	while vim is just more line-oriented
00:07	cemerick	rbxbx: was definitely not evangelizing anything there :-)
00:08	bbloom	Scriptor: text objects make it quite a bit better… i don't use paraedit or anything
00:08	Raynes	I love ALL the editors.
00:08	technomancy	Raynes: even sublime?
00:08	Raynes	I use two editors at the same time all the time.
00:08	rbxbx	Scriptor bbloom not to mention surround.vim
00:08	n_b	++Raynes
00:08	bbloom	i use that too
00:08	Raynes	technomancy: Yes, actually. I think it is a great editor with horrible Clojure support.
00:08	Raynes	technomancy: All it needs is to be open source so more than one person can work on it at a time.
00:08	technomancy	n_b: it's pronounced inc
00:09	Scriptor	Raynes: I made a php ide in vb once, I should dig it up for you
00:09	cemerick	I actually wrote the whole book in sublime :-P
00:09	technomancy	Raynes: yeah that kind of seems like a big problem
00:09	n_b	When working on Java stuff Ill often use Eclipse for finding things and generating stubs and then vim for the bulk of editing
00:09	Raynes	technomancy: That one person does great things with it. He just doesn't focus on what I want him to, which is my only problem.
00:09	cemerick	Or, I did all of my writing in sublime, I should say
00:10	technomancy	Raynes: your problem is that you and people who think like you aren't allowed to do what you want with it
00:10	Raynes	technomancy: If it was open source I still wouldn't fix my problem with it. In fact, I could do my own bundle for Clojure for it right now but I wont.
00:12	benedikt	In the Noir framework, i'm trying to use clojure.string/join on a vector of (link-to): http://codepad.org/nrEEvwjz
00:12	technomancy	why spend time hacking on something you are only allowed to use by virtue of someone else's good will?
00:13	Raynes	technomancy: Because it's nice and I'm not a FOSStard?
00:13	technomancy	"your help isn't welcome here" offends me, regardless of license
00:13	technomancy	Raynes: FOSStard is not the preferred nomenclature, dude.
00:13	technomancy	(it's freetard.)
00:15	Raynes	technomancy: I once bought oil for my mom's car.
00:15	Raynes	I'm pretty crazy.
00:17	benedikt	Raynes: cool story bro
00:17	Raynes	I guess you noticed my ignoring your noir question.
00:18	Raynes	Foiled!
00:18	cemerick	Yeah, why would anyone think that this is where people talk about Clojure? o.O
00:19	Scriptor	wasn't there a clojure-lounge or something once?
00:20	rbxbx	benedikt to be fair, it was a statement
00:20	rbxbx	;)
00:20	rbxbx	"I mapped over an set today" /me waits for a response
00:21	rbxbx	an set. ugh.
00:21	Raynes	I answered his question in #noir. Just so nobody things I'm an ass.
00:21	rbxbx	Raynes good man :)
00:25	seangrove	Why do I get "namespace not found" when trying to C-x C-e a cljs form while having a cljs nrepl session open?
00:26	seangrove	Only seems to happen on one namespace so far
00:34	Raynes	dsantiago: How do you go from hickory zip -> hickory?
00:49	benedikt	How would it make sense to represent a bunch of objects (papers in my case) in clojure. I represent each paper with a hashmap (:name, :abstract, etc, etc.), but i have more than one paper.
00:49	n_b	What do you mean represent?
00:49	n_b	IOW, what's your end goal?
00:50	ToxicFrog	As in, what collection type you want to store them in? Depends on what you're doing with them.
00:50	benedikt	n_b: oh, the XY problem. Printing out a list of papers
00:50	seangrove	benedikt: first pass, sounds like a vector of hashmaps
00:50	ToxicFrog	Is order significant?
00:50	benedikt	seangrove: thats what i thought.
00:50	benedikt	ToxicFrog: no, but i need to be able to select paper by e.g. name
00:50	ToxicFrog	A map (name => paper hash), then?
00:50	benedikt	building a website with noir. i thinking of a /paper/name thing
00:51	n_b	ah
00:51	benedikt	ToxicFrog: How would that look in clojure pseudocode?
00:51	n_b	You might look at sets benedikt
00:52	n_b	Programming Clojure had a good section on building a little in-memory database using the basic clojure datatypes
00:52	n_b	To recommend anything more than that I'll defer to someone with more experience :)
00:52	ToxicFrog	sets don't get you the name->paper mapping, though, you'd need to filter it
00:53	benedikt	ToxicFrog: how would your idea look?
00:54	n_b	ToxicFrog: You can use something like (select pred col) though can't you?
00:55	ToxicFrog	benedikt: you're already using hashmaps for the papers themselves, you'd just store those in another hashmap - (hash-map "Performance Evaluation of a ..." { :name ... :abstract ... } "An Integrated ..." { :name ... :abstract ... })
00:55	zackzackzack	I just ran `lein check` for the first time ever on a project. I'm scared. What's going on?
00:55	ToxicFrog	This does assume you only ever want to lookup by name, though
00:55	n_b	benedikt: Why not stuff them into a proper DB?
00:56	n_b	at least something like BerkeleyDB or SQLite?
00:56	benedikt	n_b: i just want to keep it simple with as few layers as possible. its update at most twice a year
00:56	n_b	So how is it getting loaded as is?
00:57	n_b	Just something like (def papers [paper1, paper 2])
00:57	benedikt	static html :)(
00:57	n_b	and you're parsing it out with enlive or something?
00:57	benedikt	i just have some spare time and i want to familiarize myself with clojure
00:57	benedikt	so i'm rewriting this simple webpage with clojure
00:58	benedikt	ToxicFrog: that makes perfect sense for what i want to do.
01:02	benedikt	n_b: where were you going with (def papers [paper1 paper2]) ?
01:07	n_b	benedikt: using sets and relations with predicates to query it like an in-mem db
01:09	benedikt	n_b: nice. did you find that link?
01:10	n_b	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.3.0/clojure.set
01:10	benedikt	that hardly explains how to do that
01:11	n_b	slam all your hashes into a set, then query that like any filter statement would
01:12	bbloom	benedikt: what types of queries do you need to support?
01:12	bbloom	if you need precise lookups, simply store your data in a map keyed by the lookup value
01:13	bbloom	if you need range lookups, you can use a sorted-set or a sorted-map in conjunction with subseq
01:13	bbloom	(doc subseq)
01:13	clojurebot	"([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key]); sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true"
01:13	bbloom	subseq enables you to treat a sorted collection as an index
01:13	n_b	whoa, did not know about that
01:13	n_b	nifty
01:13	n_b	stdlib just keeps getting better and better the more I learn.
01:14	benedikt	bbloom: only by name. but i'm all for doin unessecarly cool stuff.
01:14	bbloom	direct access by name? any kind of substring matching?
01:14	benedikt	direct
01:14	bbloom	yeah, then don't get fancy: use a map
01:15	bbloom	if your data set fits in memory, and all you care about is direct lookup by name, then the simplest thing to do is to store your entire database in a single top level atom
01:16	bbloom	write a few functions to use with swap! on that atom that insert, remove, or "modify" items in your database
01:16	bbloom	if your change rate is small enough and you don't need transactional storage, you can slurp up that database from a file on startup, and write it out on save
01:17	benedikt	its actually that simple
01:17	bbloom	if you need fancier querying or better transaction guarentees or higher throughput, use a real database
01:17	bbloom	i'm all for simple single atom slurp/spit databases in apps
01:17	bbloom	anytime you can reasonably get away with that, do it!
01:17	benedikt	i like your thinking.
01:17	bbloom	well then we have that in common :-P
01:30	benedikt	Seems like that if i try to pass it a value that isn't in the hashmap, i'm getting served an empty page
01:30	benedikt	seems like a sensible approach.
01:31	n_b	just return a different result if you get back nil
01:32	benedikt	aye
01:37	rbxbx	bbloom I like that approach as well :)
01:38	rbxbx	May have to give it a go with the next app I undertake with trivial persistence requirements
02:08	dsantiago	Raynes: zip/root doesn't work?
02:08	Raynes	Good question. I didn't try it. Note that I'm very new to zippers and pretty dumb in general too.
02:12	Raynes	dsantiago: Yeah, that works.
02:12	dsantiago	Phew.
02:12	Raynes	dsantiago: Hickory is suck good stuff.
02:12	dsantiago	Thanks, I thikn.
02:12	Raynes	such
04:43	hcumberdale	Hi there ;)
04:52	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Morning.
05:03	kral	morning
05:18	thorwil	morning
05:19	thorwil	so i can test private fns just fine using #'
05:19	thorwil	but that does not work for macros. is there a way around that?
05:20	thorwil	(though just not making the macros private has no real cost to it)
05:21	Raynes	Making nothing private has no real cost to it.
05:22	Raynes	It'd be better if there was some other flag to tell whatever documentation generator one is using to ignore it.
05:22	bbloom	Raynes: I think that flag is :private :-)
05:22	Raynes	I should send weavejester a pull request to make it ignore vars with :nodox metadata.
05:22	thorwil	sure. i just use it to mark stuff that is used inside a ns, when it's not worth it to spin off a new ns for it
05:22	bbloom	it's just bugged: the flag also makes things private
05:23	Raynes	lol
05:23	bbloom	although, to be fair, there is an orthoginal concern: automatic import on :use
05:23	clgv	Raynes: why not :public to mark the intended public api without any restrictions
05:23	Raynes	Because ew.
05:24	Raynes	I don't want to have to attach metadata to everything
05:24	Raynes	:P
05:24	bbloom	if i author a namespace that i expect to :use-d, then i use :private
05:24	bbloom	otherwise, i just don't write doc strings for private stuff
05:25	Raynes	I wish I could write namespaces that break when use'd.
05:25	bbloom	eh, add a rule to kibit :-P
05:26	bbloom	use is perfectly acceptable for interactive work and for my "shit that i wish was in core" utilities
06:47	rasputnik	is this the right place to ask ring questions?
06:48	thorwil	rasputnik: it is probably one right place
06:49	rasputnik	ok, well just writing a dead simple ring app and trying to add some middleware. things are not going so good.
06:49	rasputnik	Parameter declaration wrap-json-response should be a vector
06:49	rasputnik	hang on, i'll pastie the code somewhere
06:51	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com is a popular choice.
06:51	rasputnik	here's the problem code, can't see what's wrong with it
06:51	rasputnik	https://gist.github.com/4257968
06:51	Raynes	Foiled!
06:51	rasputnik	:)
06:52	rasputnik	i'm too rusty on the basics here to be sure whether the (ns …) form is correct
06:52	thorwil	rasputnik: defn is for defining functions and ths must have an arg list
06:53	thorwil	line 10/11
06:54	Sgeo\|web	Well, my simplistic attempt to replace the clojail macroexpander failed and crashed
06:55	rasputnik	thorwil: bloody hell. Why do i bother coding before coffee, it's always a waste of time.
06:55	thorwil	heh
07:03	Sgeo\|web	Even blindly throwing mexpand-all in there it fails some tests
07:04	Sgeo\|web	I'll need to look at this more closely later, I think. I should be sleeping.
07:13	tgoossens	i'm making a little game. to paint all the players i do
07:13	tgoossens	(map #(paint g (deref %)) players))
07:13	tgoossens	but that doesn't work?
07:13	tgoossens	but (paint g @(first players)) works
07:13	tgoossens	i don't get it
07:14	ucb	tgoossens: map is lazy, maybe that's it?
07:14	tgoossens	hmmm
07:14	tgoossens	yes of course
07:15	tgoossens	is there a better way
07:15	tgoossens	or should i just
07:15	tgoossens	do
07:15	tgoossens	(seq ..)
07:15	weavejester	rasputnik: It can be
07:15	ucb	tgoossens: you could try with doseq
07:15	tgoossens	let my try this
07:15	tgoossens	*me
07:19	tgoossens	that seems to work
07:19	tgoossens	now i ran into a classical problem
07:19	tgoossens	on linux holding a pressed button gives you , pressed, released, pressed, released
07:20	ucb	heh
07:21	clgv	tgoossens: I doubt that general happens on linux. what GUI framework do you use?
07:21	tgoossens	swing. based on the snake example in "programming clojure"
07:22	wilfredh	I'm trying to add prettytime (http://ocpsoft.org/prettytime/ ) to a Clojure project, but adding [org.ocpsoft.prettytime/prettytime "2.0.0.Final"] to my project.clj dependencies can't find it any repository.
07:22	wilfredh	Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong?
07:24	wilfredh	http://ocpsoft.org/prettytime/ says "To use snapshots, you must also use the Sonatype Snapshots repository" but AFAICT I'm not using a snapshot, just a stable release
07:27	wilfredh	ah, got it. Looks like 1.0.8.Final is the most recent version of maven.org
07:40	rasputnik	weavejester: wrapping the app in wrap-json-repsonse is still giving me troubles, fell back to just ring.util.json-response for now.
07:40	rasputnik	(PEBKAC no doubt, but don't need the entire app to generate JSON anyhow)
08:31	Sgeo\|web	Why would someone need to make a new object just to use what is essentially a function that has nothing to do with the object it's on?
08:31	Sgeo\|web	(Looking at that PrettyTime thing)
08:31	Sgeo\|web	I blame Java
08:36	clgv	I get a java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError for an interface of a protocol in a namespace where the deining namespace of the protocol is "require"d
08:37	clgv	I only get that when running the uberjar
08:38	clgv	so what is the reason for that?
08:41	firesofmay	What would be the best way to get and generate sentences for testing in various languages?
08:42	maleghast	Hey there y'all
08:44	Chousuke	firesofmay: "best" is a difficult question, but I would start by defining word classes, then some words in each class, and some data structure which describes how each kind of word can be used to form complete sentences. that's enough for at least simple languages if you don't require semantically correct sentences :P
08:45	maleghast	I was wondering… I was Clojure eXchange in London last week (awesome 1 day conference set up by Skills Matter and London Clojurians, esp otfrom) and Rich Hickey's talk made me think about a bunch of (sadly non-Clojure) things that I am working on at my day-job at the moment, particularly interchange between systems… So here' s the thing, and don't throw stuff at me, does anyone know of an implementation of edn in PHP..?
08:45	Chousuke	firesofmay: but in general that problem is extremely difficult
08:46	firesofmay	Chousuke, I just want random text. Semantics are not important. I just want to generate sentences (meaning is not important). Criteria is to able to generate sentences from various languages.
08:47	firesofmay	Chousuke, One way is I copy general words of various langauges. And put them in a list. I was wondering if I can do this in some better way then copy pasting myself.
08:47	Chousuke	put the words in a file, read the file, and parse it into a list?
08:48	ro_st	firesofmay: seen brian marick's talk? there's a topic on the group now that might interest you: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/Q53aRaiwDCQ
08:48	firesofmay	ro_st, checking.
08:48	Chousuke	using a pure dictionary-based approach will only work for reasonably simple languages though
08:48	Chousuke	like, say, english :ÖP
08:48	Chousuke	:P
08:49	firesofmay	Chousuke, Hmm. What about languages like manderin?
08:49	Chousuke	mandarin might work too
08:49	Chousuke	since words are mostly immutable
08:49	ro_st	maleghast: if there is, it hasn't been shared with the maintainers yet: https://github.com/edn-format/edn/wiki/Implementations
08:49	Chousuke	but eg. in Finnish you'd be very limited with a dictionary-only approach
08:50	maleghast	ro_st: Yeah, I looked there first - wanted to see if there was anyone in here prepared to put their hand up and admit to one...
08:50	Chousuke	since you need to actually modify words depending on their grammatical role in a sentence and relation to other words.
08:50	maleghast	ro_st: Thanks though :-)
08:51	ro_st	maleghast: condolences that you need it.
08:52	ro_st	we're just over a month away from switching to our pure clojure v2 stack. v1 stack has php AND flash in it.
08:52	maleghast	ro_st: Thanks :-S Truth is I might not - I might (at least) be able to use this issue as one of the reasons for moving even our top layer up out of PHP and into Ruby (well jRuby) and there is a Ruby implementation of edn.
08:52	ro_st	by pure, i mean: datomic, clojure, clojurescript, and pallet for aws ec2 configuration. even the campfire bot is in clojure.
08:52	maleghast	ro_st: Sounds like you are properly moving up in the world - nice stuff
08:52	maleghast	:-)
08:52	Chousuke	firesofmay: for example if you consider the two sentences "I bought a red car" and "That is a red car you bought", "red", "car" and "bought" would not map to the same words when translated into Finnish
08:53	maleghast	ro_st: Who is "we" if I may ask..?
08:53	ro_st	<spam>www.cognician.com</spam>
08:53	firesofmay	Chousuke, As long as I can generate some finish looking sentence I am good :) (for now at least)
08:53	maleghast	ro_st: Thx - looking
08:53	Chousuke	firesofmay: that's probably possible
08:54	firesofmay	Chousuke, this is just to populate and see if its working fine. What it means is of no importance to my testing.
08:54	ro_st	firesofmay: what about grabbing some version of finnish lipsum and using chunks of that?
08:54	firesofmay	ro_st, I could, what I am asking is should I grab them manually and save them, or do you know any one place I can get standard words for all languages?
08:55	firesofmay	ro_st, Chousuke Then I can just write functions which would take them and genreate random sentences for given language.
08:55	ro_st	i have no idea
08:55	firesofmay	ro_st, Okay no problem :)
08:56	ro_st	http://generator.lorem-ipsum.info/
08:56	ro_st	"Other languages/charsets"
08:56	ro_st	boom
08:57	ro_st	i googled for "lipsum for other languages". this ws the first hit
08:58	firesofmay	ro_st, checking
08:59	rcg-work	there is only one lorem ipsum generator: http://slipsum.com/
08:59	rcg-work	;)
09:01	firesofmay	rcg-work, lmao :)
09:01	si14_	is there anything for parsine Erlang datastructures out there?
09:01	firesofmay	ro_st, that links great for now :)
09:01	si14_	or should I write something for this by myself?
09:01	firesofmay	rcg-work, I wish it had more languages ;)
09:08	ro_st	si14_: you could use erlang
09:08	rcg-work	firesofmay, ;)
09:10	PudgePacket	Hey, I've just been going through the koans, and I was wondering what the differente between (peek '(1 2)) and (first '(1 2)) was
09:10	si14_	ro_st: what do you mean?
09:11	noidi	PudgePacket, http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/peek
09:11	noidi	,(doc peek)
09:11	clojurebot	"([coll]); For a list or queue, same as first, for a vector, same as, but much more efficient than, last. If the collection is empty, returns nil."
09:12	HolyJak	PudgePacket: You'd use peek when you use the collection as a queue to indicate it is a queue
09:14	firesofmay	ro_st, Chousuke this is also good enough alternative : http://www.adhesiontext.com/ & http://randomtextgenerator.com/
09:14	firesofmay	these are*
09:14	ro_st	si14_: you want to parse Erlang data structures. isn't Erlang a good fit for that?
09:15	si14_	ro_st: I need to parse Erlang's config. I can parse it in Erlang, emit some JSON and use it in Clojure, but it would be easier to use config files themself
09:16	PudgePacket	Thanks
09:16	ro_st	si14_: you might find that's actually not easier. a cursory google doesn't reveal anything
09:17	cemerick	Having an erlang reader implemented in Clojure wouldn't be the worst thing in the world...
09:19	pbw	Hi folks. N00n00b question follows:
09:21	pbw	If I do this in the repl, it woks. (filter #(java.lang.Character/isUpperCase %) "AbcDef") gives (\A \D)
09:21	ro_st	isn't the erlang vm so small that you can just embed the whole vm in a source file somewhere? -disclaimer, i know nothing about erlang-
09:22	si14_	ro_st: nope :)
09:23	Hodapp	Erlang is a lot of things, but I don't know that I've ever heard it called "light"
09:23	pbw	But I can't seem to apply 'str' to this in a 'comp' in order to string the function processes together.
09:23	cemerick	Oh, I totally forgot about http://erjang.org/
09:24	cemerick	si14_: might want to look in there for a reader ^^
09:25	si14_	cemerick: yeah, nice idea! thanks, I'll look there
09:26	cemerick	si14_: A super-quick browse of the javadoc doesn't turn up anything obvious; ping back if you find a reader in there :-)
09:27	p_l	Hodapp: someone got Erlang to start fast enough that a fresh request time outs slower than the VM boots
09:28	Bahman	p_l: That's nothing compared to JVM :-P
09:28	Hodapp	p_l: I have no doubts it can be made quick, I'm just saying it's rarely called "light" :P
09:29	p_l	Bahman: hmm?
09:29	Bahman	p_l: Use your imagination!
09:29	p_l	Hodapp: well, it doesn't need to be complete VM from start to boot
09:30	Bahman	p_l: "False" imagination of course :-)
09:30	tbaldridge	p_l: let's not forget that the Erlang VM is miles simpler than the JVM
09:30	Hodapp	p_l: so it loads only what's needed?
09:30	tbaldridge	no classes, no string, just ints, lists, and dictionaries.
09:30	tbaldridge	*no strings
09:31	Hodapp	tbaldridge: No strings? Didn't know that.
09:31	si14_	cemerick: found this: https://github.com/trifork/erjang/blob/master/src/main/java/erjang/jbeam/beam.g
09:31	tbaldridge	in Erlang strings are arrays of 32 bit integers
09:31	si14_	cemerick: not sure if I know how to use it standalone
09:35	cemerick	si14_: it's an antlr grammar; presumably the build process or some script in the repo uses it to generate the lexer and parser
09:48	tbaldridge	anyone with emacs skills know a shortcut to "go to start/end of sexpr"?
09:48	zerokarmaleft	C-M-b and C-M-f
09:49	noidi	or C-M-u for "go up"
09:50	tbaldridge	cool. Is there one for "go to start of top level form"? Or should I just hit C-M-u a bunch of times?
09:50	si14_	cemerick: yeah, thanks.
09:50	ro_st	the latter
09:50	daimrod	tbaldridge: C-M-a
09:51	tbaldridge	awesome! thanks guys.
09:51	ro_st	awesome. didn't know that!
09:51	daimrod	and C-M-e to go to the end
09:51	tbaldridge	C-M-a C-space C-M-e C-w the combination I've wanted for a long time. :-)
09:52	noidi	for any lurking eclipse users, you can do all this in Counterclokwise as well :) http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/EditorKeyBindingsFeatures
09:52	zerokarmaleft	tbaldridge: C-M-a and C-M-e already set marks
09:53	zerokarmaleft	so you just need C-M-a C-M-e C-w
09:53	ro_st	C-M-space
09:53	tbaldridge	cool, didn't know that since it wasn't highlighted.
09:53	ro_st	or C-M-k
09:54	si14_	and finally I decided to generate my configs from YAML instead of parsing them :)
09:55	ro_st	C-M-a C-M-k
09:56	ro_st	go to begin of top form and cut the whole form
09:56	ro_st	s/cut/kill
09:56	zerokarmaleft	ro_st: nice, didn't know about that one
10:04	yedi	test
10:05	yedi	is there a #clojure log?
10:05	vijaykiran	,log
10:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: log in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:05	vijaykiran	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
10:06	vijaykiran	yedi: ^^
10:06	yedi	ty
10:06	clgv	$log
10:07	cemerick	huh, it used to be in there
10:07	cemerick	log?
10:07	clojurebot	see logs
10:07	cemerick	logs?
10:07	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
10:15	vijaykiran	cemerick: ah, thx!
10:15	ppppaul	hey guys
10:15	ppppaul	what's a good lib for builing REST apis?
10:16	ppppaul	noir/compojure/ring/other?
10:16	weavejester	You might want to look at compojure + liberator
10:17	ohpauleez	previously I really enjoyed ring+moustache, but if you google around, you'll find something called liberator
10:17	ohpauleez	gah, late to the party
10:17	ohpauleez	:)
10:17	ppppaul	moustache?
10:17	clojurebot	moustache is http://github.com/cgrand/moustache
10:17	ro_st	noir, plain old compojure, liberator, bishop
10:17	ro_st	take your pick
10:18	ohpauleez	ohh bishop
10:18	ohpauleez	good call
10:18	ohpauleez	ro_st: I just saw your tweet
10:18	ro_st	ohpauleez: :) i ended up not using your fine efforts
10:18	ppppaul	i'm wondering what would be most productive, also i haven't used clojure in a while, so i'm almost a noob again
10:18	ro_st	which one?
10:19	ro_st	ppppaul: i believe liberator is the thing, now
10:19	ohpauleez	two things - a freshening up of Shoreleave (now that a chunk is in CLJS proper)
10:19	ohpauleez	and I have a bunch of notes on reactive stuff
10:19	ro_st	we're using noir and shoreleave-remote but that's because our consumer is cljs
10:19	ro_st	oh, that tweet :-)
10:19	ppppaul	people's thoughts on bishop?
10:19	clj_newb_2345	is there a gallery of websites done in clojurescript?
10:20	ro_st	ppppaul: cmiles74 is bishop's author
10:20	ohpauleez	ro_st: But Shoreleave needs to be touched up and unified across the board, and I'm about to get some more time to work on it soon-ish
10:20	ro_st	clj_newb_2345: not that i know of, but i think it'd be awesom if there is
10:21	ro_st	ohpauleez: reactive looks very interesting. it's in the direction i want to go - real-time websockets stuff
10:22	ohpauleez	Definitely
10:22	ro_st	ohpauleez: i just put this out a couple days back http://github.com/cognician/fusebox
10:23	ohpauleez	YS!
10:23	ohpauleez	YES***
10:23	ciphergoth	When I google for async support in Ring/Compojure, I find posts from a couple of years ago setting out how it might work. Is there a working mechanism now?
10:23	ro_st	it's ridiculously simple. i'm releasing a composition of this and datomic soon
10:23	ohpauleez	that's pretty solid
10:24	weavejester	ciphergoth: Try looking into Aleph
10:24	ivaraasen	ciphergoth: looked at Compojure + Aleph sample applications?
10:24	ohpauleez	ro_st: You should submit a cognician ClojureWest talk
10:24	weavejester	ciphergoth: After some experimentation with Ring, we found that adding async support direct to Ring didn't really work
10:25	ivaraasen	like this: https://github.com/alexkehayias/clojure-aleph-chat
10:25	ciphergoth	weavejester, ivaraasen: thanks
10:25	weavejester	ciphergoth: It really needs a separate protocol, as Aleph has
10:25	ciphergoth	OK
10:25	ro_st	ohpauleez: the implementation is almost non existant. but i think the value is in having the abstraction in place. was such a pleasure to write it up, wire it in to the backend, write a remote, and wire it into the frontend, all in a matter of hours. cljsbuild's crossovers rock.
10:26	ohpauleez	ro_st: Yes, I totally agree - there's definitely real power there
10:26	ro_st	ohpauleez: i totally want to get to the USA next year to attend the conj
10:26	ppppaul	weavejester, what do you mean by async support? do you mean realtime web stuff?
10:27	weavejester	ppppaul: Yeah
10:27	ppppaul	erlang chloe
10:27	ro_st	this is going to play nicely with a/b testing, too. i just got the datomic stuff done in our server code today. fuses are datomic schema attributes, and i can tag either the whole system, a user, a user role, or a user group with a fuse
10:28	ro_st	and query out a flat list of enabled fuses for the ring middleware
10:28	ppppaul	realtime web means state... state on a web server = bad
10:28	ro_st	just have to build a simple ui for setting fuse state now
10:28	weavejester	ppppaul: You mean threading state between requests
10:28	ciphergoth	is Aleph a web server, or something that runs within a servlet container
10:29	weavejester	But yes, websockets and HTTP are fundementally two different protocols that happen to share a common handshake
10:29	weavejester	ciphergoth: It's a async server that covers several protocols, including long-polling HTTP and websockets.
10:29	ro_st	i remember reading that, in production, you should put your websocket server far away from your webserver
10:30	ro_st	as they have totally different scaling semantics
10:30	ciphergoth	weavejester: I was hoping to use long polling within Jetty on Heroku
10:30	ohpauleez	ro_st: Yes
10:30	ppppaul	weavejester, not just websockets, even long polling counts in this case... updating clients in real time means lots of state management... it's not good for the webserver that is used to having all it's state in a db
10:30	ohpauleez	that is VERY true
10:30	weavejester	ro_st: That tends to be my approach. I don't think there are many advantages to having them on the same server.
10:30	ppppaul	also i can't imagine having an easy time scaling realtime stuff
10:30	ppppaul	it should really be on it's own server
10:31	clgv	What do I do wrong if a defprotocol is compiled correctly in REPL and when building the uberjar but I get a ClassNotFoundException for the interface of that protocol when I start the uberjar?
10:32	ppppaul	does ring handle sessions/cookies?
10:32	ro_st	ppppaul: yup
10:33	ppppaul	by default, or do i have to enable it?
10:33	ro_st	ohpauleez: i'd love it if you'd check fusebox out and holler if you see any weaknesses.
10:33	ro_st	you can enable/disable them as you wish
10:33	ppppaul	^_^
10:33	ro_st	they're implemented as middleware
10:33	ppppaul	hope it's easy to deal with
10:34	ro_st	you can start with a bare http server or a full featured cookies sessions param parsing much-ado
10:34	weavejester	ppppaul: Yep, but as middleware
10:34	ro_st	dead easy.
10:34	ppppaul	no cookie sessions for me, but i want mappings from cookies to sessions (i'm planning to put the session data in datomic, if this is easy)
10:35	ro_st	cemerick: 100 tabs? you trying to set a record?
10:35	ohpauleez	ro_st: I'll definitely add it to my day
10:35	cemerick	ro_st: Just SOP for me for years now :-P
10:35	cemerick	Tree-style tabs + firefox's tab spaces makes it all quite manageable
10:35	nDuff	...though my browser tends to bog down if I try to go above 175 or so.
10:36	ro_st	thanks :-)
10:36	ro_st	ppppaul: we use memcached for sessions, but we do put a session id into datomic
10:36	cemerick	Ever since FF14 or so, it hasn't flinched
10:37	ro_st	ppppaul: you don't want to persist-for-eternity session flash messages, for example, or session redirect-after-login urls
10:37	ppppaul	think that putting the whole session in datomic is too much?
10:37	ro_st	we tried it. it's good for the stuff you want to keep for ever (session info like user-agent and ip) but not for transitory stuff like redirects and flashes
10:38	ppppaul	i'm under a lot of time pressure now, so i want to do what ever is simplest to get the product out... using multiple stores seems like an optimization
10:38	ro_st	because datomic doesn't forget anything, ever. that's its design
10:38	ppppaul	i don't know what flashes are, and i wont have redirects
10:38	ppppaul	i'll just have some tiny meta data for the user
10:40	ro_st	if you have total control over the keys written to session storage (which you can totally have), and you want to retain 100% of that session data, then datomic is totally fine
10:40	ciphergoth	So from what people have said here, and some negative results from Googling, it looks like the situation is the following:
10:40	ciphergoth	if you want to use eg async long polling, and your entire stack is Clojure, you're golden: you can use aleph and laminar.
10:41	ro_st	why the control over keys? each key, or attribute, has to be preconfigured as schema for datomic
10:41	ciphergoth	However, the Clojure net frameworks do not currently allow you to use the support for long polling in servlet-3.0 or Jetty.
10:41	ciphergoth	does that sound right?
10:41	ro_st	we use noir, which likes to put all sorts of its own stuff into session. which caused datomic to cry about unknown attribs
10:44	ppppaul	oh
10:44	ppppaul	well, i really only want one field in the session store
10:45	ppppaul	does noir use memory for sessions by default?
10:45	ro_st	it does
10:45	ppppaul	i'm not sure i'm using noir yet, though. looking at a lot of libs for api building right now
10:45	ppppaul	bishop seems pretty nice
10:46	ro_st	gotta go. good luck :-)_
10:46	ppppaul	thanks
10:46	weavejester	ciphergoth: I don't know of any libraries for using the long polling in servlet 3.0
10:47	weavejester	Servlets are pretty poorly designed
10:47	ciphergoth	weavejester: agreed
10:47	ciphergoth	weavejester: However a colleague points out that Heroku allows us to use Netty, which has much more direct control
10:48	weavejester	ciphergoth: Heroku allows you to use almost anything
10:48	ciphergoth	weavejester: ah, really? We could use aleph in Heroku?
10:48	weavejester	It's limited only by what is supported for compilation
10:48	weavejester	And what their proxy servers support
10:49	ppppaul	heroku doesn't like the erlang or haskell
10:49	weavejester	ciphergoth: Yep
10:49	weavejester	ppppaul: Isn't that just a question of compiling it, though?
10:49	ciphergoth	Aha, that's much more appealing
10:49	ciphergoth	thank you!
10:50	borkdude	why not use a VPS, they're not that expensive anymore and full control
10:50	weavejester	Heroku and other similar service have advantages in terms of managing server nodes
10:50	ciphergoth	and it sounds like it offers the control we need
10:50	weavejester	i.e. with a VPS you have to setup your own cluster
10:51	borkdude	ah yes
10:51	ciphergoth	yeah we are keen to avoid system adminsitration
10:53	ppppaul	are noir's session and cookie apis a big improvement ontop of what ring offers?
10:54	borkdude	there was an idea of a linux distro / VM image geared towards Everthing Clojure last year, I wonder if that became something?
10:54	borkdude	Everything
10:54	ppppaul	seems odd
10:54	weavejester	ppppaul: They use Ring's middleware underneath, but Noir is more stateful
10:54	ppppaul	just make a vagrant box
10:54	ppppaul	weavejester, for better or worse??
10:54	lazybot	ppppaul: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
10:55	weavejester	ppppaul: It kinda depends. I'd say that Ring's approach is better for middleware. Noir's approach is maybe more convenient for direct use.
10:59	ppppaul	can you elaborate (i haven't seen how ring does it yet)
11:05	weavejester	ppppaul: Ring sets session and cookies via keys on the response. Noir sets them via side-effectful functions.
11:11	clgv	when exactly do I need to AOT a namespace containing a defprotocol?
11:11	ohpauleez	clgv: Only when you're going to expose that code to a Java system (where you want to program Java against Clojure)
11:12	clgv	ok that's what I thought. but I still get a weird ClassNotFoundException for the protocol interface...
11:12	ohpauleez	yeah I saw the message earlier, no idea where that's coming from
11:13	ohpauleez	have you confirmed, via test or REPL that everything is named correctly, everything works
11:14	clgv	yeah from REPL it works
11:14	ohpauleez	does the name have dashes in it?
11:14	ohpauleez	or the ns
11:14	clgv	no
11:14	ohpauleez	well, I'm out of ideas :(
11:14	mthvedt	you're running things in a fresh JVM?
11:15	clgv	I added printlns to the two namespaces which are printed just before the exception. so the namespace with the protocol gets loaded
11:15	clgv	yeah several fresh repls and a lot of rebuilt uberjars
11:16	mthvedt	does it work if you use a non-uber jar?
11:18	clgv	oh, lein's "run" fails as well
11:20	clgv	so the non-uber jar probably fails as well
11:21	mthvedt	i actually don''t have any ideas… just fishing
11:21	technomancy	ppppaul: FWIW heroku supports erlang
11:21	technomancy	we have a harder time with haskell since the build chain is enormous
11:22	mthvedt	you could check if the class is present in the jar
11:23	clgv	mthvedt: no the class is not in the jar. but that shouldnt be a problem since the namespace is required
11:24	mthvedt	oh right
11:25	clgv	but maybe that is the problem - the class should be there if it is called from the compiled -main method
11:28	mthvedt	i'm no expert, but iirc java isn't supposed to load a class until it hits the code that actually uses the class
11:28	mthvedt	so if the RT loads it before main hits it, it seems you should be good...
11:28	mthvedt	on the other hand, class loader stuff like this is very easy to break...
11:28	gfredericks	okay I think korma's (select foo (with bars)) returns a lazy seq that has remaining queries to make
11:29	clgv	I think the interface is needed for the inline implementation in a deftype
11:30	mthvedt	it would be odd if loading the deftype didn't load the interface
11:30	technomancy	gfredericks: so it's a leak if not fully consumed?
11:30	gfredericks	technomancy: well I think what hiredman was saying yesterday about there being no with-connection macro means that korma is at liberty to assume that the connection is always available
11:30	gfredericks	I don't think it leaves queries open
11:31	gfredericks	I think as you consume each foo, it makes an individual query for all the bars of that foo
11:31	gfredericks	so each query is self-contained; but when the select returns there are more queries to make to realize the thing
11:32	gfredericks	in my case this means it makes way more queries than I'd like
11:37	ppppaul	is it possible, in emacs jacked in to lein/swank, to get lein to get lein to download new deps without me calling lein deps on the command line?
11:38	ppppaul	actually calling lein deps from the command line while my program is running is ok
11:38	ppppaul	is there an easy way for my program to use those deps without starting lein again?
11:38	ppppaul	would C-c C-l do what i want?
11:39	clgv	ppppaul: pomegranate
11:39	gfredericks	I expect you'd have to restart processes to get new deps in? So the classpath could be updated?
11:40	clj_newb_2345	is it possible to have both horizontal and verticlal wheel scrolling to work in java? (In particular, I'm using a trackpad on ubuntu 12.10)
11:40	clj_newb_2345	soI'm reading around, and it appears getting this to work requires recomioing the JDK or something
11:41	clj_newb_2345	is it possible to get both horizontal and vertical mouse wheel scrolling to work in swing/awt?
11:41	clj_newb_2345	i'm reading around, and it appears this requires recompiling the jdk
11:42	clgv	clj_newb_2345: you have more chances to get an answer in ##java I guess
11:43	borkdude	why does ##java have two #'s?
11:44	clgv	borkdude: there is some naming convention I forgot ;)
11:45	gtrak	borkdude: #java is more official, and invite-only
11:48	gtrak	borkdude: one time, during a netsplit, I successfully joined #java, but got kicked when it reattached :-)
11:54	clj_newb_2345	how does one join #java ?
11:54	clj_newb_2345	who sends out the invites?
11:54	acron^	Hi guys
11:54	gtrak	how does one know if he's in the illuminati?
11:54	acron^	Cheshire is giving me "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.joda.time.DateTime"
11:55	clgv	clj_newb_2345: join ##java instead
11:55	dakrone	acron^: cheshire doesn't use joda at all, can you paste a code example?
11:55	devn	what's that fancy pants lib that you add to your project.clj that will automatically pull in new deps to your repl session when you change project.clj?
11:55	acron^	It's stumping me a bit
11:55	hiredman	acron^: that exception is cheshires weird way of telling you it does not know how to encode a joda time object as a json
11:56	acron^	http://pastebin.com/WxG81VUm
11:56	acron^	^ code
11:56	TimMc	devn: pomegranate?
11:56	dakrone	hiredman: cheshire should be throwing a JsonGenerationException if it can't encode it
11:56	dakrone	not a ClassNotFoundException
11:56	hiredman	dakrone: well I've seen it do that
11:57	dakrone	hence the should :)
11:57	dakrone	acron^: and what does find-maps return?
11:57	acron^	A clojure map
11:57	acron^	from MongoDB
11:57	dakrone	acron^: cheshire has no encoder for joda dates, you'll need to add one yourself if you want to be able to encode them
11:57	acron^	(http://pastebin.com/KNQXhzxb < deps)
11:58	dakrone	I am guessing that is the issue
11:58	acron^	What's joda on clojars? "clj-time" ?
11:59	dakrone	I have no idea, I assume it's something monger is bringing in and using
11:59	gtrak	clj-time is a wrapper over joda
11:59	dakrone	could be noir also
11:59	dakrone	if you do a lein deps :tree you can see who's bringing it in
12:01	ppppaul	could someone help me debug this simple error i'm getting related to package management https://gist.github.com/4260243
12:03	ppppaul	i'm having a problem loading fs.core
12:03	gfredericks	huh. I'd expect that to work.
12:03	TimMc	ppppaul: The problem is likely with fs.core's ns header.
12:03	gfredericks	o_O
12:04	gfredericks	Raynes would never release a bug.
12:04	TimMc	Oh, fs is something external?
12:04	cmiles74	ppppaul: I have more work to do on Bishop, but I used it on a couple real projects and it worked well.
12:05	TimMc	fs.core is a bad package name -- just waiting for a collision.
12:05	ppppaul	awesome
12:05	ppppaul	the dsl looks very nice cmiles74
12:06	cmiles74	ppppaul: thank you! There's some cleanup that could still be done, I think. But that's always the way. :-P
12:06	ppppaul	TimMc, i removed the require, and i'm still running into compile errors (looks like my project still thinks that i'm requiring it, even after saving and recompiling)
12:06	ppppaul	cmiles74, how easy is it to use session store (ring or whatever) with bishop?
12:07	TimMc	gfredericks: I guess it's not Raynes' fault... in this case.
12:08	ppppaul	maybe i need to re initalize the namespace
12:08	gfredericks	TimMc: that statement is always true
12:08	cmiles74	ppppaul: All of the work I've done so far has been geared toward web-services... Working with other Ring middleware is straightforward, but I haven't done any work using sessions. I don't think it'd be a big deal.
12:09	ppppaul	cmiles74, sessions are very important for me, is there an easy way to put ring middleware in bishop?
12:10	cmiles74	Session data comes through the request map under the :session key, I don't think you'll have to do anything.
12:10	ppppaul	woot!
12:12	cmiles74	ppppaul: Looking at the pieces, IMHO it should all just work. :-D
12:12	ppppaul	TimMc, i had to use (remove-ns)
12:14	cemerick	pjstadig: Did you ever get your invokedynamic fork cooking? It'd be interesting to see how the cons/conj example fares under that.
12:16	alexnixon	TimMc: (thanks for pointing me at "locals clearing" at around this time yesterday - I had to go afk but didn't miss your message)
12:21	ppppaul	hey, i want to slurp a file that may not exist, and i don't want my program to break, but getting a nil back or something is ok. how would i go about doing this?
12:22	thorwil	ppppaul: wrap it in a try?
12:23	technomancy	(if (.exists f) (slurp f))
12:23	ppppaul	great!
12:23	ppppaul	thanks technomancy
12:23	gfredericks	technomancy: ugh, so much code
12:23	technomancy	actually use and instead
12:23	gfredericks	wat.
12:23	gfredericks	for unreadability?
12:23	technomancy	gfredericks: you mean it could be 3x shorter with monads?
12:24	gfredericks	(-> f .exists (if (slurp f))) is clearly the most readable
12:24	ppppaul	hmm
12:24	technomancy	gfredericks: logically you're looking for the existence of the file and the contents of the file
12:24	ppppaul	i am mapping over a list of files
12:24	cemerick	I was going to wat at the binary if, but... #deadhorse
12:24	ppppaul	i don't want to keep the nils in my array, would i use keep for this?
12:25	gfredericks	cemerick: what's a binary if?
12:25	technomancy	gfredericks: the best kind of if
12:25	cemerick	vs. ternary
12:25	cemerick	i.e. using if instead of when when there's no 'else' branch
12:25	technomancy	ppppaul: if you're going to have to run a filter over it anyway you might as well check for existence before slurping
12:25	ppppaul	ok
12:25	cemerick	technomancy and I have been arguing about this for far too long :-P
12:25	ivaraasen	gfredericks: the best solution is obviously to make the reader bind the symbol æ to (-> f .exists (if (slurp f))) and just use æ instead.
12:26	gfredericks	is technomancy's position that when indicate's side effects? I've always liked that interpretation.
12:26	technomancy	another ally!
12:27	gfredericks	when is in the same pile with do
12:27	ppppaul	ok, i have a (-> files (filter .exists) (map slurp))
12:27	technomancy	gfredericks: as has been the lisp tradition since the dawn of time
12:27	gfredericks	I didn't know that.
12:27	technomancy	ppppaul: .exists isn't a function; it's a method
12:27	cemerick	gfredericks: I guess you put let in that bunch too? :-P
12:27	ppppaul	hnmm
12:27	cemerick	symbol-macrolet, and we could all be writing APL by now
12:28	gfredericks	cemerick: I wouldn't mind there being a separate let for side effects. But that's probably being unnecessarily strict about it
12:29	ppppaul	technomancy, i changed from using the method to using fs.core/exists?
12:29	ppppaul	:D
12:29	gfredericks	but to the extent that the built-ins encourage you to make side-effects explicit, I think that's a good thing. Too far down that road lies haskell, and apparently we hate that. But maybe a little bit is okay?
12:29	ohpauleez	cemerick: Are you starting fires in here again? :)
12:29	cemerick	ohpauleez: again? I thought that was my only job?
12:29	ohpauleez	haha
12:30	cemerick	gfredericks: of course, nothing about these forms actually has anything to do with side-effecting or not
12:30	cemerick	in contrast to e.g. io!
12:30	gfredericks	well, the only thing when gives you over binary if is the ability to add side-effect statements
12:31	gfredericks	so if you only use it when you need that, then you've got a side-effect flag. in a loosy sense.
12:31	cemerick	actually, it allows you to avoid the impression that perhaps you've accidentally left out a branch.
12:31	cemerick	Which is what I think when I see (if x y) ;... where's z?!
12:31	gfredericks	right. So there's two reasons to distinguish between if and when. I guess the question is whether it's more useful to flag side effects or binary intentions
12:31	technomancy	accidentally used a "dirty" arity of the macro?
12:32	gfredericks	we could fix all this by (defmacro bif [x y] (list 'if x y))
12:32	cemerick	We'd all need blotters under our keyboards if we wanted to mark side effects generally
12:32	gfredericks	and that would be more like back-to-the-future so I think that's always the way to go
12:33	technomancy	or a jira issue to fix the bug that if has multiple bodies
12:33	seangrove	What happened with recet versions of magit, everything takes way more key strokes now
12:33	gfredericks	technomancy: you'd prefer it ternary-only?
12:33	technomancy	gfredericks: no; I'm pointing out how silly it is to claim that `if` is broken out of the box
12:34	gfredericks	technomancy: phew. I thought for a second you had said something that I didn't quite agree with initially.
12:34	gfredericks	CRISIS AVOIDED
12:34	ohpauleez	CARRY ON
12:34	ohpauleez	technomancy: No, I haven't the option to toggle things off and on
12:35	ohpauleez	but the output isn't that verbose
12:35	ohpauleez	so I don't think it'll make it unusable
12:35	ohpauleez	you just ignore whatever you think is nonsense
12:35	technomancy	I'll just wait till it's fixed
12:40	seangrove	Is kibit the standard clojure linter? I haven't used any yet, and would like to run some over my cljs
12:42	ohpauleez	It's form-based static analysis - looking for common patterns of text to substitute, but there is no program or whole-function analysis
12:42	ohpauleez	it makes suggestions, for example, instead of using interpose on a string, you should use clojure.string/join
12:42	seangrove	Yeah, just saw it referenced yesterday in dnolen's talk
12:43	seangrove	Any recommendations for a similar tool? Not urgent, just thought it'd be nice
12:43	ohpauleez	Kibit is pretty good
12:43	ohpauleez	and it's as good as you're willing to make it
12:48	SegFaultAX	seangrove: Do you have a link for that talk? I meant to watch it but wasn't able to find the time yesterday.
12:49	seangrove	Sure, one second
12:49	seangrove	SegFaultAX: http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/the-refined-clojurist
12:49	SegFaultAX	seangrove: Danke!
12:50	seangrove	De rien
12:52	devn	(print-table (:members (reflect Math)))
12:52	devn	(use 'clojure.pprint)
12:52	devn	,(use 'clojure.pprint)
12:52	devn	,(print-table (:members (reflect Math)))
12:52	clojurebot	nil
12:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reflect in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:03	SegFaultAX	What is the best paraedit plugin for vim?
13:04	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: paredit.vim
13:05	ohpauleez	https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim
13:05	ohpauleez	I believe this is the new home
13:11	ppppaul	where does lein keep it's deps?
13:11	gfredericks	in ~/.m2
13:11	ohpauleez	ppppaul: in the .m2 // it uses maven
13:20	rbxbx	Is there a builtin fn that acts as a composition of map && dissoc ?
13:20	rbxbx	so given a collection of maps remove a key from all of them
13:21	gfredericks	I don't think so
13:21	rbxbx	(map #(dissoc % :key) coll)
13:21	rbxbx	gfredericks okay, thanks :)
13:21	TimMc	If there were, I would wonder why someone wouldn't just use map and dissoc.
13:22	gfredericks	TimMc: well there are _some_ functions that are trivial compositions of others
13:22	rbxbx	gfredericks I dare say many ;)
13:22	gfredericks	but I agree that one sounds a little too specialized given how often I haven't needed it
13:22	gfredericks	like for example just today I didn't need it
13:22	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: Thanks, I've looked at that one a number of times but I wasn't clear if I should be using slimv with it.
13:22	rbxbx	haha
13:23	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: If I would have just read the documentation I would have seen that it's part of slimv, but also it's own standalone plugin. ;)
13:23	rbxbx	also, perhaps on the same subject, is there a prefered way to compose when the argument order is reversed?
13:23	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: Nope, it was just pulled out of Slimv. There's even hooks for other systems in it (vimclojure, for example)
13:23	rbxbx	Or should one just use a single argument anon fn
13:23	gfredericks	rbxbx: I expect that's how most people do it
13:23	ohpauleez	rbxbx: Check out clojerks
13:24	rbxbx	ohpauleez I moved, too late :)
13:24	ohpauleez	NOOOOOOOO
13:24	ohpauleez	rbxbx: back to NYC?
13:24	rbxbx	Yeah. It's a net neutral move.
13:24	rbxbx	Portland and Brooklyn will have both lost and gained a clojurian
13:24	rbxbx	;)
13:24	ohpauleez	:)
13:24	rbxbx	ohpauleez I do regret that we weren't able to hang out more though
13:25	ohpauleez	rbxbx: same
13:25	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: I'm seeing that now! By the way, do you use nrepl?
13:25	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: vim+foreplay+paredit+surround
13:25	ohpauleez	+VimClojure (static)
13:26	ohpauleez	I've definitely been enjoying the nREPL life
13:26	rbxbx	ohpauleez do you find paredit necessary with surround?
13:26	rbxbx	I mean, I'm guessing so, since you listed it.
13:26	ohpauleez	haha, good guess!
13:27	rbxbx	;_;
13:27	rbxbx	Perhaps I'll give it another whirl.
13:27	devth	I find paredit annoying with surround - but that's because I've used surround forever and haven't taken the time to learn paredit
13:27	rbxbx	devth ditto
13:27	ohpauleez	moving parens, splicing, joining, navidating across parens and defns/top-levels, etc
13:27	ohpauleez	surround is great for…. the surrounding things, but that's about it
13:28	ohpauleez	paredit, takes over from there
13:28	ohpauleez	keeps things balanced, keeps the cursor where it needs to be, makes clearing up full forms easy
13:29	duck1123	I've never heard of surround, but how is it better than just M-(
13:29	ohpauleez	duck1123: cs'"
13:29	ohpauleez	change surrounding ' to "
13:29	ohpauleez	ds"
13:29	ohpauleez	delete surrounding "
13:29	devth	ysiWb
13:29	TimMc	rbxbx: You haven't lived until you've M-x paredit-convolute-sexp
13:30	ohpauleez	once you learn it, paredit makes you far faster, saves keystrokes, and adds to the fun
13:30	rbxbx	I'll probably revisit. I can only learn so much at once :)
13:30	TimMc	Indeed.
13:30	ohpauleez	:)
13:31	rbxbx	TimMc just think how many people have died without ever really having lived
13:31	rbxbx	;P
13:31	TimMc	It fills me with sorrow.
13:31	rbxbx	ohpauleez did you find a clojure gig in pdx or are you still with ... tutor.... tutor... something?
13:32	hiredman	paredit: harder better faster stronger
13:32	ohpauleez	still with tutorspree and running my own R&D lab - NDensity
13:33	rbxbx	ohpauleez neat :)
13:38	hyPiRion	So, except for (not (nil? ...)), what other succinct ways are there to map a truthy value to true, and a falsey to false?
13:38	hyPiRion	/s/falsey/nil/
13:39	technomancy	there's `boolean`
13:40	TimMc	(comp not nil?) won't do that
13:41	metellus	,(boolean :x)
13:41	clojurebot	true
13:41	hyPiRion	technomancy: well, that should fit my needs. Thanks.
13:41	metellus	,(boolean nil)
13:41	clojurebot	false
13:41	hyPiRion	TimMc: Well, strictly speak I only need to return non-falsey objects as true.
13:41	hyPiRion	/s/speak/speaking/
13:42	metellus	oh, technomancy beat me to it
13:42	TimMc	,(->> [1 true false nil] (map (juxt (comp not not) boolean)) (every? (partial apply =)))
13:42	clojurebot	true
13:44	TimMc	(-> identity complement complement)
13:46	hyPiRion	(mapv #({false false, nil false} % true) [1 true false nil [] {}])
13:46	hyPiRion	,(mapv #({false false, nil false} % true) [1 true false nil [] {}])
13:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:47	hyPiRion	,(mapv #({false false, nil false} % true) [1 true false nil []])
13:47	clojurebot	[true true false false true]
13:53	TimMc	,(->> [1 true false nil (Boolean. false)] (map (juxt (comp not not) boolean)) (map (partial apply =)))
13:53	clojurebot	(true true true true false)
13:55	TimMc	(Boolean. false) strikes again!
13:55	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: When you say static vimclojure, do you just mean sand nailgun?
13:59	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: Yeah, sans nailgun - I'm using foreplay/nREPL now
13:59	ohpauleez	VimClojure is just doing the syntax highlighting, indenting, etc
14:00	ohpauleez	but with that setup you can `cpw` to eval the symbol your on, `cpp` for the paragraph, cqq to take the current form and put it in the "REPL" and I aliased cpr to require the file
14:01	ohpauleez	[d for source lookup, K for doc lookup
14:01	rking	I wonder how I'd get 'lein' on Gentoo. dev-lang/clojure provided clojure-1.{1,4}, and dev-lang/clojure-contrib added a clojure-contrib.jar. Not seeing lein anywhere though
14:02	technomancy	rking: there was a package a while ago but it was pretty buggy. best to install 2.0.0-preview10 by hand.
14:02	rking	technomancy: OK, thanks.
14:02	rking	technomancy: Do you advise against installing from VCS?
14:04	technomancy	rking: you can run from git if you're interested in contributing to Leiningen. otherwise it doesn't make sense
14:05	llasram	Huh: ##[(compare [0 0] [1]) (compare [0 0] [1 :whatever])]
14:05	lazybot	⇒ [1 -1]
14:05	technomancy	rking: bootstrapping a self-hosted program is always a bit tricky
14:06	rking	technomancy: OK, thanks.
14:08	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: That sounds awesome. I don't really like using nailgun. It feels a lot more painful than it should be to setup.
14:14	hyPiRion	,(let [b (Boolean. false)] (= b (not b)))
14:14	clojurebot	true
14:15	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Huh?
14:15	SegFaultAX	How?
14:15	clojurebot	with style and grace
14:16	hyPiRion	It's all in the details, isn't it.
14:17	rbxbx	Does anyone have examples of some alternate credential-fn's for usage with friend? /cc cemerick
14:17	marcello	what's the best way to begin to go about splitting a large text into chunks that each have no more than 10k characters and no more than 250 lines
14:18	rbxbx	Trying to suss out the contract that function must uphold from the readme and builtin bcrypt-credential-fn and having a hard time
14:18	marcello	is a recursive loop my best bet?
14:18	hyPiRion	,(let [conj (memoize conj)] (map #(conj % 2) [[1] '(1) (ArrayList. [1])]))
14:18	clojurebot	([1 2] [1 2] [1 2])
14:19	hyPiRion	hurray.
14:19	rking	Hrm. Trying to install Datomic codeq (with little JVM / clojure) knowledge. java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/IFn means I should…
14:20	hyPiRion	marcello: You're splitting a string either on 10k elements or 250 lines, whichever comes first?
14:20	andrewmcveigh	rbxbx: from memory, the function needs to return a map containing {:username "foo" :password "bcrypted pass"}
14:20	rking	FWIW 'lein repl' is working.
14:20	marcello	hyPiRion: exactly
14:20	rking	(And the above exception came from: java -server -Xmx1g -jar /home/rking/pkg/codeq/target/codeq-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT.jar datomic:free://localhost:4334/git )
14:21	hiredman	rking: you need to build an uberjar
14:21	hiredman	rking: read the datomic docs, do what they say
14:21	hiredman	errr
14:21	hiredman	the codeq docs
14:21	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh: hmm.. Thanks :)
14:21	hyPiRion	Well, you're accumulating over two things, so I'd use loop, yes.
14:21	rking	hiredman: I did do that. That's what that codeq-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT.jar is
14:22	hyPiRion	Write it in Java if performance is an issue.
14:22	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh I guess I could just throw a prn in there and see what the default is doing.
14:22	hiredman	rking: you didn't
14:22	hiredman	"lein uberjar"
14:22	andrewmcveigh	rbxbx: It's not working for you?
14:23	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh the default is, I'm trying to write my own though
14:23	rking	hiredman: From a few minutes ago: https://gist.github.com/d7b2ce2eb68e5e1df8f2
14:23	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh dealing with legacy data that has been hashed differently
14:24	hiredman	rking: ok, compare the jar name you are using with the jar name in the readme
14:25	rking	hiredman: Theirs says -standalone.jar
14:25	andrewmcveigh	rbxbx: ah, afaik thats what the bcrypt-credential-fn expects.
14:25	rking	hiredman: Thanks.
14:26	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh this is a bit clearer than bcrypt-credential-fn to me, perhaps I'll use it as a reference – https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/test/test_friend/mock_app.clj#L109
14:26	andrewmcveigh	rbxbx: Oh, and it returns the "user" map, without the password key.
14:27	rbxbx	andrewmcveigh: I think associng on the identity was throwing me
14:28	cemerick	rbxbx: if the hashing is the only thing that differs, then you should be able to follow the pattern set by bcrypt-credential-fn
14:29	rbxbx	cemerick that and hitting the database to return the user vs looking up in a map
14:29	technomancy	who was in here yesterday saying that git doesn't suck?
14:29	cemerick	rbxbx: That's entirely separate from the hashing verification
14:30	cemerick	i.e. if you keep them separate, then you can mix and match easily with partial
14:30	Mr_Bond	technomancy: I imagine that could have been a number of people :)
14:30	rbxbx	cemerick that was my next question. Indeed it is.
14:31	rbxbx	cemerick: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/test/test_friend/mock_app.clj#L109 was throwing me a bit since it combines the two
14:31	rbxbx	...also, if I'm not mistaken, that function doesn't actually seem to get used in the example app
14:31	technomancy	well I just wasted a day working around the fact that git appears to have two different implementations of .gitignore parsing
14:32	rbxbx	cemerick cheers, thanks for the guidance :)
14:32	cemerick	rbxbx: you mean bcrypt-credential-fn?
14:32	llasram	technomancy: Huh. For what differing contexts?
14:32	technomancy	llasram: git ls-files claims to use the same logic as .gitignore, but actually completely ignores directory entries
14:32	rbxbx	cemerick I mean the private fn credential-fn defined on line 109 of that mock_app
14:32	rbxbx	https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/test/test_friend/mock_app.clj#L109
14:33	rbxbx	cemerick ^^
14:33	technomancy	you have to use a glob if you want to ignore anything inside a dir
14:33	technomancy	a triple-glob
14:33	cemerick	rbxbx: oh, indeed it does not
14:33	amalloy	technomancy: triple-glob?
14:33	technomancy	amalloy: /dir/*/
14:33	llasram	technomancy: Even with --exclude-standard ?
14:33	technomancy	llasram: ayup
14:33	llasram	huh
14:34	technomancy	bloody nonsense
14:35	rbxbx	cemerick I'd considered submitting a pull request removing it, but wasn't sure your original intent.
14:36	cemerick	It's probably just cruft.
14:36	llasram	That's weird... I'm not sure I'm seeing that behavior. I ask and am curious because I recently switched from `find-file-in-project` to a `find-file-in-repository` extension, and hacked in new-file-unless-.gitignore'd feature using those flags to git-ls-files
14:36	cemerick	rbxbx: submit away :-)
14:36	rbxbx	cemerick also I'm not comfortable enough with the clojures at this point to go submitting pull requests willy nilly and risking public shaming :p
14:37	technomancy	llasram: mkdir ignore; cd ignore; git init; mkdir hello; touch hello/world; echo "/hello/" > .gitignore; git ls-files -i -o -X .gitignore \| wc -l
14:37	technomancy	zero here
14:41	llasram	Oh! Weird. And yet with --directory, it will then show you the ignored directory
14:42	llasram	Good old git
14:42	technomancy	yeah, great behaviour for a command called ls-files =\
14:45	Mr_Bond	technomancy: ahh, that sucks (the git-ls parsing) are you using a recent version?
14:46	cemerick	is there a git incantation that will apply a patch without mucking with the of the tip of the patch? It seems github pull requests aren't closed when the patch is applied with e.g. `curl patch-url \| git am --`
14:46	technomancy	Mr_Bond: I have to make it work in production where we're running 1.7.0
14:46	cemerick	with the SHA*
14:46	Mr_Bond	technomancy: I see, that's not to old anyway
14:47	Mr_Bond	thought maybe it was a difference in c/perl apps, and that if one of the tools where perl maybe it had been re-implemented in C
14:49	tpope	cemerick: git apply applies a single patch to your work tree without committing
14:50	ppppaul	taking advice from some of you guys from earlier today, i'm going to use liberator for my web api... however it actually has a symbol/dep bug in it. can someone point me to a resource that will help me learn how to use a patched version of the lib in my project. thanks
14:53	rbxbx	ppppaul you can fork it and upload a version under your own org to clojars
14:54	rbxbx	(while submitting a pull request with the bugfix, of course ;) )
14:55	rbxbx	ppppaul https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/tutorial explains that process
14:55	rbxbx	You can probably also link against a local version, but I'm not sure how to do that.
14:57	ppppaul	thanks
14:58	rbxbx	np
14:58	cemerick	tpope: sorry, I botched my question. I was hoping to find a way to git am, but as if I were merging with --ff-only, say.
14:58	cemerick	But, nm; it's inconsequential.
14:59	cemerick	Github's change some time ago to merge pull requests with --no-ff still bums me out.
15:03	rking	cemerick: What does that affect?
15:03	cemerick	rking: you get merge commits even when they're unnecessary
15:04	rking	Oh, OK
15:05	tpope	yeah I hate that
15:05	tpope	but it's consistent with "commit message closes the issue"
15:05	pbuckley_	I have two lists of maps with some overlap between them (both ways) and I want to merge them into a single list of merged maps - any pointers at what to look at? I'm banging my head on the cheatsheet and not finding anything suitable on my own.
15:05	tpope	I cherry-pick and close the issue by hand :/
15:05	ppppaul	rbxbx, http://blog.cymen.org/2012/03/12/leiningen-and-lein-localrepo-how-to-create-local-maven-repository-for-jar-files/
15:05	technomancy	llasram: also apparently --directory only works with top-level directories, not nested ones woooooooo
15:06	llasram	I guess Linus wants you to do something like ( git ls-files -o -X .gitignore ; git ls-files -o ) \| sort \| uniq -u ?
15:06	llasram	It's already 90% shell scripts, so one more layer can't hurt
15:06	rbxbx	ppppaul good to know, bookmarked should the need arise again. Thanks :)
15:07	tpope	llasram: what's the goal?
15:07	technomancy	llasram: nope; still doesn't work
15:07	raek	pbuckley_: something like this? (let [x [{:a 1} {:b 2}], y [{:x 1} {:y 2}]] (map merge x y) )
15:08	cemerick	tpope: you can still ff merge locally and push, but it's a PITA
15:08	technomancy	git: it mostly works, if you don't look too closely
15:08	tpope	yep
15:08	cemerick	I still do it, just because merge commits bother me, unreasonably so
15:09	hyPiRion	curl http://link.to.pull/request.patch \| git am ? Not too hard
15:09	tpope	I am so anal about my git history it probably qualifies as a disorder
15:10	rking	tpope: It does.
15:10	rking	But at least it elevates the rest of us. ☺
15:10	tpope	I rejected rking's commit because it had a unicode arrow in it
15:10	hyPiRion	Just a pity you can't configure whether merging or applying directly on top.
15:10	cemerick	hyPiRion: that produces a separate commit that isn't recognized by github as closing the pull req
15:11	tpope	cemerick: does a ff merge close it?
15:11	pbuckley_	raek - that seems to work, but discards maps that aren't in both lists
15:11	cemerick	tpope: yeah, but you have to pull from the other remote and push
15:11	raek	,(map merge [{:a 1} {:b 2}] [{:x 1} {:y 2}])
15:11	clojurebot	({:x 1, :a 1} {:y 2, :b 2})
15:11	cemerick	I was hoping to be lazy and just copy/paste the .patch file URL from the pull req email, etc.
15:12	hyPiRion	cemerick: Oh, I thought it would close it. Well then, that sucks.
15:12	raek	pbuckley_: so you didn't want to merge the two sequences element wise?
15:12	pbuckley_	raek: they're not balanced - one list is two elems long, the other is three
15:12	tpope	I have been being lazy, but it means I have to close my hand
15:12	cemerick	hyPiRion: nope, does one of those X authored, Y committed commits
15:13	tpope	hub is pretty good about encapsulating some of these workflows
15:13	cemerick	their pull req UI used to be perfect in this way
15:13	tpope	e.g hub remote add cemerick to git remote add cemerick git://github.com/cemerick/reponame.git
15:15	cemerick	tpope: hah, I thought you were just referring to github as 'hub' :-P
15:15	tpope	the idea is alias git=hub
15:16	tpope	https://github.com/defunkt/hub
15:16	cemerick	oh, that's cute
15:16	tpope	let's you cherry-pick github urls
15:16	tpope	little niceties like that
15:16	cemerick	and here I had just started using bitbucket more often
15:18	tpope	git merge https://github.com/defunkt/hub/pull/73
15:18	tpope	cemerick: ^ probably does exactly what you want
15:18	bbloom	last i tried hub, it had a 3 second startup time thanks to rubygems
15:18	tpope	err no, it passes --no-ff :(
15:19	tpope	bbloom: you probably installed it wrong
15:19	rbxbx	cemerick following the pattern laid forth by bcrypt worked. I still don't quite understand the cred-fn's contract though.
15:19	tpope	or installed it before there was a right way
15:19	bbloom	i think the latter
15:19	bbloom	i'm usually pretty good with readmes :-)
15:19	sshack	(map fund :key (my-records)) maps over a key in a list of records, right?
15:19	rking	I wish they wouldn't recommend 'alias git=hub'. That's really dumb.
15:20	amalloy	pbuckley_, raek: if you want map to walk along the longest seq, rather than the shortest, your best bet is probably to pad the shorter ones with some placeholder element. for example, if you had https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj#L39 then you could (map (partial apply merge) (zip xs ys))
15:20	cemerick	tpope: I get "fatal: http://.... —not something we can merge"
15:20	cemerick	anyway
15:20	tpope	cemerick: that's with alias git=hub
15:20	amalloy	sshack: no
15:20	cemerick	oh, oh, right
15:21	sshack	amalloy: What did I get wrong?
15:21	amalloy	are you looking for (map (comp fund :key) records)?
15:21	tpope	cemerick: but it does --no-ff, so don't bother
15:21	cemerick	wait, I'm gonna get ruby all over me using hub? :-P
15:21	cemerick	heh, oh well
15:21	sshack	Possibly. I'd like a list of all the :key from values from each record.
15:21	sshack	Say, bank balances.
15:21	amalloy	that's just (map :key records)
15:22	amalloy	it's unclear what 'fund is doing there
15:22	tpope	command line scripts are one area where you clojure guys have no right to be snobbish :)
15:22	sshack	Ahh. Perfect.
15:22	amalloy	(inc tpope)
15:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:22	tbaldridge	(inc lazybot)
15:22	lazybot	⇒ 10
15:23	cemerick	tpope: I fix that by being snobbish w.r.t. scripts in general. ;-)
15:23	seangrove	Damn, it's basically impossible to get away from js' callback passing
15:23	seangrove	if it infects one method, it infects every method that needs to call it...
15:23	bbloom	seangrove: sigh i really really need to finish my CPS transform :-P
15:25	seangrove	bbloom: I'd love to see something like that... I have a sense I'm about to build a massive-ish event-coordinating service in cljs and going to have to re-write most of our things to work with it
15:25	TimMc	I don't mind the callback passing so much until there's a loop.
15:26	bbloom	TimMc: the operators in https://github.com/caolan/async are super useful
15:26	bbloom	(and trivially ported-to/used-by cljs)
15:26	seangrove	TimMc: the problem I have is that something written in callback style can't be used by non callback-oriented code
15:26	seangrove	I think that's my main problem... or at least one of them
15:27	bbloom	dammit, i have too many projects to choose from, but i think the CPS would have the largest impact on the community...
15:27	bbloom	maybe i'll just knuckle down and finish that this week
15:28	seangrove	Please do ;)
15:28	tbaldridge	+1 bbloom
15:28	seangrove	It's over my head to make it, but I'd love to use it
15:28	amalloy	bbloom: have you looked into what, uh, whatshisname did on that topic a couple months ago?
15:28	bbloom	amalloy: the tail call recursion thing?
15:28	amalloy	yeah
15:28	bbloom	yes
15:28	bbloom	i'm following the same research papers he was
15:28	tbaldridge	I really want to see Rx in Clojure. And I think it's not going to happen until someone just does it as a library.
15:28	bbloom	basically, it's a selective transform
15:29	bbloom	ie doesn't transform expressions into CPS if they are definitely not going to execute any control forms
15:29	bbloom	his project, however, used a totally custom form parser, analyzer, and AST representation. plus did some weird decidedly unclojurety things
15:30	tbaldridge	I gathered that from his talk at the Conj. A few times I thought "this is awesome...but yeah...he doesn't use Clojure much".
15:30	bbloom	also TCO doesn't require reifying continuations in any meaningful way
15:31	pbuckley_	amalloy, thanks that flatland.useful stuff was just what I needed
15:31	bbloom	ok, fine, i'll try to finish that damn transform this week :-)
15:32	seangrove	bbloom: Have it on my desk by tomorrow morning, along with the tps report
15:32	tbaldridge	rofl!
15:33	tbaldridge	sorry, I saw that movie for the first time ever, this year. So it's still funny at times.
15:33	bbloom	heh, on that note: lunch time
15:35	rbxbx	tbaldridge I think the comparison of cps and tps is pretty funny even not having just seen it :)
15:39	solussd	any suggestions for a analog to Objective-C "Notifications" in clojure? E.g. "post"ing events (with some data) that are sent to anyone listening for them? Agents + watchers aren't a good fit, since agents really just guard state (agents could be used to approximate KVO in Objective-C)
15:39	seangrove	solussd: Sounds like you want an internal pubsub mechanism?
15:41	solussd	maybe (did soe quick googling)
15:41	solussd	*some
15:41	seangrove	I'm using shoreleave, which is just a wrapper around atoms (via add-watcher) and closure's javascript bus
15:42	aphyr	solussd: could use the Observer interface...
15:42	seangrove	Bound to be something similar for clojure
15:42	ohpauleez	aphyr: Shoreleave's pubsub is the Observer interface
15:42	solussd	aphyr: ah, I had forgotten about java. :)
15:42	solussd	maybe I'll write something..
15:43	ohpauleez	ohhh he wants it in Java
15:43	solussd	no i dont!!!
15:43	solussd	I had forgotten about Observer from Java
15:43	ohpauleez	solussd: you want it in Clojure proper, on the JVM, right? or you want it on CLJS?
15:43	solussd	yes, clojure proper
15:44	ohpauleez	oh yeah, that's what I mean, Java ~ JVM
15:44	solussd	so, I can use java.. btut it doesnt need to be consumable from java
15:44	solussd	gotcha
15:44	aphyr	solussd: https://github.com/aphyr/riemann/blob/master/src/riemann/pubsub.clj
15:44	aphyr	you can roll your own
15:44	solussd	thanks
15:44	ohpauleez	solussd: Also take a look at the protocols used in Shoreleave's pubsub. You can copy them over direct to Clojure, drop in a bus, and you'll be good to go
15:45	solussd	interesting. I'll investigate
15:47	rbxbx	Is there a cli friendly variant of javadoc?
15:48	nDuff	javadoc proper isn't?
15:48	rbxbx	or would I just define my default browser as w3m/lynx/etc
15:48	nDuff	...oh, for the viewing end.
15:48	rbxbx	nDuff yeah :)
15:51	bmaddy	So is Noir still the general web framework to use these days?
15:52	ohpauleez	bmaddy: Ring+Compojure+lib-noir is pretty popular
15:53	brehaut	bmaddy: eschew frameworks, go with just libs as ohpauleez suggests
15:53	dr1	Hello. I am new to functional programming. I'm working with a project that normally gets built using "lein uberjar", which creates a jar that I can then run from the command line. I am now trying to run it from the repl. I open a repl and go to the project's namespace using (in-ns …). But I don't see a main function that starts the project and nothing else shows the GUI. How can I find the "main" function that will launch it?
15:53	ohpauleez	I've dropped noir these days for that combo - mostly just to get around all the embedded statefulness in noir
15:53	hiredman	dr1: in-ns doesn't load code
15:53	dr1	well, after I switch to the namespace, I can see the related functions and can run them
15:53	hiredman	it just creates an empty namespace with the given name
15:54	hiredman	so you have loaded it some other way
15:54	bmaddy	ohpauleez: Sweet, thanks for the advice.
15:54	ohpauleez	bmaddy: totally welcome, more than happy to help
15:54	Raynes	bmaddy: I maintain noir these days, but even I'd recommend ring + compojure + lib-noir.
15:54	dr1	I started the repl in the project's directory and ran (in-ns project-name.core)
15:54	hiredman	dr1: most of the time when a clojure project is uberjared and runnable that way the main function will be something like -main
15:54	hiredman	dr1: you did not
15:54	dr1	I do see that
15:54	dr1	how can I run it?
15:54	hiredman	that would throw an exception
15:55	dr1	I tried doing (project-name.core/-main) but that doesn't work
15:55	hiredman	at the very least is would be (in-ns 'project-name.core)
15:55	dr1	right, sorry.. that's what it was
15:55	dr1	I'm very new to Clojure :)
15:55	dr1	so then, I see the -main, but I can't run it
15:56	dr1	ahh, actually…. I just started a fresh repl and am seeing a different error (that I recognize)
15:58	dr1	uhh… well now it works! not sure what I messed up before, but thanks!
16:01	solussd	aphyr: so, your code is licensed under the EPL and I want to use the pubsub namespace, in its entirety, in my project. Do I add attribution to the top of it even though you have not? Not sure what's appropriate.
16:02	aphyr	Oh, hah, go right ahead and use it wholesale.
16:02	aphyr	Drop a comment in the top mentioning "adapted from riemann (https://github.com/aphyr/riemann)
16:02	solussd	thanks, but more just wondering what's the right thing to do (since I doubt your code will be the last epl licensed code I use)
16:02	solussd	excellent- i'll do that.
16:02	solussd	thanks
16:02	aphyr	Yeah I chose EPL just cuz it's what most of clojure seems to do
16:03	seangrove	Alright, I should just ask this to get it over with instead of trying different contortions: Is it possible (in cljs) to make async callback functions look like sync functions that can be called synchronously, if I write a wrapper function around each target async function that uses promises/dirty-black-magic?
16:03	aphyr	solussd: not sure what the correct thing to do re epl code is, but as far as my stuff I'd just like some attribution. :)
16:04	seangrove	Something like: my-happy-normal-function -(sync-looking call)-> my-individualwrapper-function -(call via promises/setInterval/something)-> original-js-callback-oriented-fn
16:04	solussd	aphyr: EPL says to leave "intact" contributor information, but given none I think it's appropriate to add it. :)
16:05	seangrove	I can see ways of doing it if I wrap the outside of it all in a kind of queue-manager, but ideally I could wrap the functions
16:10	azhim	I have an atom (def foo (atom #{})) -- I have a function that returns '("a" "b" "c"), how do I put "a" "b" and "c" directly into #{}, instead of conjing '("a" "b" "c") and getting #{("a" "b" "c")}?
16:11	AimHere	,(into #{} '("a" "b" "c"))
16:11	clojurebot	#{"a" "b" "c"}
16:11	azhim	AimHere: but in the context of a (swap! foo ...)
16:12	azhim	i wouldn't say (swap! foo into #{} '("some" "stuff"))
16:12	azhim	oh, duh, nevermind
16:12	azhim	(swap! foo into '("some" "stuff"))
16:12	seangrove	I suppose it's not possible without some pre-processor or compiler support
16:13	seangrove	Even macros can't really get around this, needs to be in the compiler I think
16:15	bbloom	huh? just use a function...
16:15	tnbd	Hello, concurrency question. I am trying to run two always running threads in parallel.
16:15	tnbd	One is the noir webserver, the other is a web-scraper. The scraper writes to an atom periodically, the webserver reads from it. I tried pcalls, but the scraper gets almost no scheduling time. Any help would be appreciated.
16:15	AimHere	Wouldn't you just wrap the function? (swap! atom #(into {} (foo %))) ?
16:15	bbloom	(swap! foo #(into % '("some" "stuff")))
16:15	bbloom	er yeah what aimhere said
16:15	mpenet	seangrove: you can use some sort of monad for that
16:16	mpenet	jayq has something like this for ajax & deferreds
16:16	bbloom	also, if azhim if you want to wholesale replace the value in foo, you can use reset!
16:16	mpenet	seangrove: its looks like a let form, but it's all async underneath
16:17	mpenet	seangrove: so yeah, macros
16:17	seangrove	mpenet: Yeah, I've seen it, but let me take another look
16:17	mpenet	seangrove: the do-> macro is the starting point, you could build what you want on top of it
16:18	seangrove	mpenet: Yeah, I'll play around with this and see if I can wrap my head around it
16:19	mpenet	seangrove: look at the generated code maybe, it's quite straightforward
16:20	bbloom	tpope: did you say foreplay was supposed to auto-connect when you have target/repl-port ?
16:20	seangrove	mpenet: is *-m supposed to signify it's a monad?
16:21	rbxbx	bbloom that's correct
16:21	bbloom	hm, not working for me
16:21	mpenet	seangrove: yes, but there is no convention for this I think, it's just to indicate it's supposed to be used with do-> since it's in a file where most of the fns are public
16:22	mpenet	seangrove: it's more or less a direct port of http://roy.brianmckenna.org/ stuff on this
16:22	seangrove	And is there any quick example of using do->?
16:22	mpenet	on the readme
16:23	rbxbx	bbloom if you explicitly connect does it work?
16:23	mpenet	seangrove: let-ajax and let-defered are just thin wrappers around do-> and bind/return definitions
16:23	rbxbx	via :Connect and walking through the 'wizard'
16:23	bbloom	rbxbx: yes
16:24	bbloom	i've been using :Connect
16:24	seangrove	mpenet: Got it, thanks for humoring me
16:24	bbloom	i'm trying to debug it now
16:24	rbxbx	if you :set verbose=1 and try to eval something without connecting what does it say?
16:25	bbloom	oh weird, it seems to be workign now
16:25	bbloom	hmmm
16:25	bbloom	scratches head
16:25	bbloom	oh
16:26	mpenet	seangrove: if you have a look at roy's example, specificaly the generated js, it might help understand
16:26	bbloom	weird. i guess it works, nevermind :-P
16:26	tpope	thought so
16:26	bbloom	my apologies for ever doubting :-P
16:27	bbloom	ok, seangrove i need to push the CPS transform down 1 on the stack… gotta get foreplay working with cljs, i miss it already
16:27	seangrove	bbloom: Yaks to be shaved, I understand
16:28	seangrove	Took a day out last week and that's why I have piggieback and friends working, it's helped out hugely
16:28	bbloom	seangrove: i'm gonna investigate getting piggieback incorporated into cljs proper
16:28	bbloom	where's dnolen when you need him? :-)
16:28	mattmoss	say his name three times?
16:29	seangrove	Heh, once in irc, once on hn, and then once on twitter?
16:29	bbloom	heh, i'll avoid beattlejuicing him until i really need him
16:35	bbloom	cemerick: piggieback question
16:35	bbloom	what's the incantation to connect to a cljs session?
16:36	bbloom	(cemerick.piggieback/cljs-repl) works nicely
16:36	cemerick	bbloom: well, that was the answer I was going to give you :-P
16:36	bbloom	heh, i mean to ask about connecting sessions
16:36	cemerick	"connecting sessions"?
16:37	bbloom	is there some kind of "run this only if this is a new session"
16:37	bbloom	ie when there is no terminal, if i evaluate (cemerick.piggieback/cljs-repl) it won't terminate, right?
16:38	cemerick	bbloom: no, it'll start a Rhino env if you don't override its defaults
16:38	cemerick	I'm not grokking your Q, I think.
16:38	bbloom	the cljs-repl function is a blocking loop, right?
16:39	cemerick	no
16:39	bbloom	oh
16:39	bbloom	ok, then i guess i don't understand anything about nrepl and probably should study it before i continue :-)
16:40	cemerick	it "installs" a cljs environment in your Clojure dynamic environment, which the piggieback middleware then uses to drive evals, load-file, etc.
16:40	bbloom	ah, ok, looking at it now
16:40	cemerick	nREPL doesn't use stdin/out at all
16:40	bbloom	ok cool
16:42	cemerick	bbloom: if you really want to screw with your head: the same pattern could be used to hoist a JRuby/Groovy/Scala/Scheme/whatever REPL on top of nREPL
16:43	bbloom	+1 for generality :-)
16:43	cemerick	or something :-)
16:43	scriptor	wait, nrepl for other languages?
16:44	cemerick	purely theoretical at the moment, but quite doable
16:44	technomancy	cemerick: someone in #emacs was wondering whether nrepl could be useful for elisp-to-elisp communication.
16:46	cemerick	hrm
16:47	cemerick	people there generally don't like jvm startup, etc
16:47	bbloom	my VimL skills are hopeless
16:47	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, I told him the idea was bonkers =)
16:48	Raynes	Oh look, github rewrote gist.
16:49	technomancy	huh; they stopped using the word "private"
16:49	technomancy	probably wise
16:50	Raynes	The paste creation screen looks to be on par with refheap for simplicity, but it uses ace instead of codemirror for paste authoring so that's a lot worse. The actual paste pages are pretty bad imo, especially with comments. I thing I still win on actual paste pages because I make a point of making code the most important thing there.
16:50	Raynes	I don't make it smaller by putting menus on the sides and stuff.
16:51	Raynes	The actual features are perfectly doable in refheap, I just haven't gotten to them yet.
16:51	technomancy	refheap has the advantage that when I want to change the language, I can click on the drop down and do so
16:51	Raynes	Except for the git repository crap which I still thing is pointless.
16:51	technomancy	for some reason gist is stuck on "text"
16:52	Raynes	I've never once wanted to download a git repository of a paste. I guess maybe some people do. I'm just not one of them.
16:52	technomancy	Raynes: it's just solving a different problem from refheap
16:52	bbloom	Raynes: I've forked a gist before…. but it's because some weirdo made like a 5 file gist project
16:52	technomancy	I've forked one to give feedback on a draft blog post
16:52	amalloy	technomancy: my experience has been that if your gist "filename" is weird, eg scratch, their web ui loses the ability to change language
16:52	Raynes	bbloom: Refheap has forking, but it isn't that useful until I add paste history and history diffing.
16:53	Raynes	This is why I don't do a 'file' thing.
16:53	technomancy	amalloy: this is on a fresh visit to gisthub.com; nothing created yet
16:53	amalloy	i fork gists all the time. only a few times have i cloned the git repo though
16:53	Raynes	I'll add multi-paste support, but each paste on the page will be a new refheap paste.
16:53	bbloom	yeah clone is what i mean
16:53	Raynes	It makes it tons easier to work with the API, for example, because of no confusing nested json.
16:55	Raynes	amalloy: Is Justin using refheap yet?
16:55	Raynes	Seems like I've seen him throw you or Lance one here or there.
16:56	amalloy	sometimes
16:56	Raynes	"I managed to drag gist users half way to refheap."
16:58	Raynes	I'd have markdown support finished on refheap right now had I not got side tracked into writing an enlivealike.
16:59	Raynes	I got to a point where it was like "Well, I have this html, and I'd like to change this node here. Enlive would work." so the obvious conclusion was to write my own library.
16:59	nDuff	...I already _have_ a unified identity, damnit. :)
16:59	ivan	may you crush hastebin and vaporize its ashes
16:59	Raynes	nDuff: Just log into google and pretend it worked.
16:59	Raynes	I haven't seen anybody use that thing in 100 years.
17:00	Raynes	Hastebin has a nice UI, but it doesn't do a whole lot.
17:00	Raynes	Which is great for some people, but not really for me.
17:00	nDuff	Raynes: Sorry? I _am_ logged into Google, but refheap's Persona setup doesn't appear to be able to take advantage of that.
17:00	Raynes	I want markdown, forking, history, diffing, etc.
17:00	Raynes	nDuff: It was a joke.
17:00	Raynes	Sorry.
17:00	Raynes	I'd add alternative ways to sign up, but I'd almost rather kill myself than add a "Or sign up with…" link up there.
17:01	bbloom	cemerick: how do i opt into the nrepl with the sessions fix?
17:01	bbloom	presumably just a dependency in my project file?
17:02	cemerick	bbloom: use "0.2.0-SNAPSHOT" and add the sonatype OSS repository to your project.clj
17:02	Raynes	amalloy: I could understand him not wanting to use it without good history. Seems like it's the thing you guys use/like the most about gist.
17:02	ivaraasen	Raynes: better add support for img links to meme pictures as well. the gist users will go wild.
17:02	nDuff	err, "#### users!" count
17:02	bbloom	cemerick: use just means dependency, no fancy repl-options or anything, right?
17:02	Raynes	But it's at the top of my todo list after markdown support.
17:02	Raynes	ivaraasen: Hah.
17:02	cemerick	bbloom: right, no special config required
17:02	Raynes	ivaraasen: Well, you can embed a link to an image in markdown files when markdown support is done. ;)
17:03	bmaddy	nDuff: I have a friend who works on Persona, want me to share some of your complaints with him? (or are most of them inherent in their system?)
17:03	ivaraasen	Raynes: you should offer some premade ones as well
17:03	Raynes	bmaddy: Oh yeah, didn't I tell you a long time ago that I'd delegate all bitching to you? :p
17:03	technomancy	bmaddy: doesn't work with my browser (Conkeror)
17:03	nDuff	bmaddy: the core thing is lack of interop. If I have an OpenID provider with physical token authentication, I absolutely, positively don't want any new identity which I can't sign into with that token.
17:04	ivaraasen	Raynes: like this http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3s5fro/
17:04	bmaddy	Well, fire away everyone. I'll just point him to this chat. :) He'll be happy to see feedback from a smart community.
17:06	aphyr	ivaraasen: dead
17:10	bbloom	cemerick: ok got it, but this might be a lot of work, since cljs doens't support (require ...)
17:12	cemerick	bbloom: what might be a lot of work?
17:12	bbloom	getting foreplay and cljs to (fore)play nice together
17:13	bbloom	mainly cljs' fault for having an insufficient module system
17:14	cemerick	piggieback works like a charm with lein and ccw; why not foreplay?
17:15	bbloom	piggieback is working
17:15	bbloom	it's just all the require and namespace switching and stuff
17:15	bbloom	im looking into it
17:16	cemerick	hrm
17:16	cemerick	I mean, once you start a cljs-repl, you can't send clojure code on the same session
17:17	cemerick	I generally have two sessions going when I'm going cljs stuff; one for piggieback/cljs, one for Clojure and the backend.
17:17	bbloom	yeah, i'm not even to that stage yet :-)
17:19	cemerick	bbloom: FWIW, I've been sitting on a cljx nREPL middleware that helps tremendously
17:19	cemerick	one of these days...
17:19	tomoj	when I (in-ns 'foo) with piggieback, my require(-macros) :as aren't visible
17:22	amalloy	i remember one of the things rich said at some point is that clojure provides a la carte the features that OO gloms all together into the single "Objects" feature. polymorphism, namespacing, whatever. does anyone know where he said that? i'd like to find the full list of features he mentions, if possible
17:23	cemerick	tomoj: there is no in-ns in cljs
17:23	cemerick	amalloy: sounds like the strange loop talk
17:23	tomoj	strange
17:23	tomoj	it definitely seems to work in a limited way
17:23	amalloy	cemerick: simple made easy, from last october? thanks, i'll give it a look
17:24	bbloom	cemerick: eh, there sorta is
17:24	cemerick	amalloy: don't remember the name; it was the guardrails talk IIRC
17:24	tomoj	the prompt changes and I can use the defs in that namespace without qualification
17:24	bbloom	in-ns is special cased in the repl code
17:24	cemerick	heh
17:24	tomoj	I see, but because no in-ns in cljs, require :as doesn't work?
17:24	bbloom	(in-ns 'foo) ; works
17:24	bbloom	(do (in-ns 'foo)) ; doesn't work
17:25	tomoj	strange :refer does work
17:25	tomoj	maybe not that strange
17:26	cemerick	I'll just carry on thinking that there's no in-ns in cljs ;-)
17:27	bbloom	i kinda wish core was split into core.compiletime and core.runtime
17:27	bbloom	because core.compiletime isn't available at all in cljs ...
17:28	seangrove	Any reason (js->cljs obj) would just be returning a normal js-obj?
17:30	tomoj	it doesn't implement IEncodeClojure and the default case doesn't cover it
17:31	seangrove	Ah, something inside it maybe?
17:31	seangrove	Interesting
17:31	tomoj	..interesting that IEncodeClojure has the unary arity in the protocol
17:31	seangrove	I wished it failed or mentioned something though
17:32	seangrove	Suppose it's easy enough to get around it though
17:37	bbloom	ok i don't think i know enough about vim or nrepl to tackle this :-/
17:37	bbloom	but i do know enough about cljs to know it's not gonna make this easy
17:37	bbloom	so maybe my time is better spent fixing up cljs and then leaving the vim and the repl to the experts....
17:37	bbloom	:-P
17:37	bbloom	meanwhile, that means i have to live without foreplay for cljs...
17:38	tpope	don't look at me, I don't even know where to start
17:39	cemerick	bbloom: maybe send a message to clojure-tools for me to look at later? I'm not following much at the moment.
17:39	bbloom	cemerick: ok
17:39	bbloom	tpope: my hope is that we can improve cljs until it's practically zero work for you
17:39	seangrove	heh, the yak-stack gets deeper
17:39	bbloom	cljs and clj should work nearly identically
17:39	cemerick	FWIW, I didn't need to make any changes to lein or ccw to use them with piggieback/cljs
17:40	bbloom	but there are a lot of differences for tooling currently b/c cljs doesn't provide a lot of core features…. like the require function....
17:40	cemerick	So, whatever's wrong, it shouldn't be too tough to fix. :-)
17:40	cemerick	bbloom: that's a cljx/feature expression problem
17:40	tpope	bbloom: first step is getting it to where I can talk to it from the command line
17:40	tpope	if framing things that way makes it easier for you
17:41	bbloom	cemerick: maybe the fact that ccw works implies that foreplay is doing stuff that it should be
17:41	bbloom	tpope: i have cljs running in a terminal under nrepl just fine
17:42	bbloom	and i can send it expressions to evaluate, but foreplay does some conveninence things like calling 'require for you
17:42	tpope	I mean I need to be able to run a command that evals and returns the result
17:42	tpope	yeah step 2 is the tricky stuff like the require
17:43	bbloom	tpope: oh, step 1 is easy. i'll post my project for you
17:44	tpope	so would something like changing eval to in-ns work?
17:44	tpope	err require to in-ins
17:44	tpope	err require to in-ns
17:44	bbloom	tpope: i think what you actually want is require to (ns ...)
17:44	bbloom	i think you need to evaluate the top form in the file
17:45	seangrove	Why would the first object (pulled from another object) not encode into cljs, and the second one (made fresh) will: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/412963/Screenshots/ar.png
17:45	bbloom	but i might be wrong
17:45	tpope	implicitly evaluating part of the file sounds like trouble waiting to happen
17:45	bbloom	agreed...
17:46	bbloom	anyway, see this gist and comment: https://gist.github.com/4262975
17:46	bbloom	tpope: that will get your a working cljs nrepl in zero time
17:46	tomoj	seangrove: hmm, cljs.core.type(r) is Object ?
17:46	tomoj	looks like it
17:46	tpope	bbloom: what happens if I talk to that repl over the network?
17:46	seangrove	tomoj: Yeah
17:46	seangrove	But so is cljs.core.type(t)
17:47	seangrove	Ah, interesting...
17:47	bbloom	tpope: it responds reasonably, it's just that you get errors for trying to use 'require etc
17:47	seangrove	cljs.core.type(t) == Object
17:47	seangrove	That's true, but with r it's false
17:47	seangrove	Maybe r's prototype has been altered...
17:48	seangrove	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/412963/Screenshots/as.png
17:48	tomoj	hmm.. wat ?
17:48	bbloom	tpope: i'll write up some notes and put them an in an issue
17:49	tpope	bbloom: yeah that's good, can't really get into it this very second anyways
17:49	tomoj	Object is not cloneable, so what the hell else could that be?
17:49	bbloom	tpope: no worries
17:49	seangrove	Maybe I'm missing some js runtime detail...
17:53	seangrove	No, no idea
17:53	seangrove	Time for a nap
17:58	tomoj	do you have multiple js files?
17:58	tomoj	shouldn't matter I guess
17:59	tpope	bbloom: the nrepl eval call lets me send along an ns. maybe the solution is to drop the require entirely?
18:00	bbloom	tpope: that'd be nice
18:00	technomancy	something to watch for when sending require across the wire: http://technomancy.us/143
18:01	gfredericks	technomancy: please rewrite that sentence so that it rhymes more
18:02	zodiak	strange question perhaps but.. is there anything like lisa (the expert system) for clojure ?
18:02	technomancy	how about iambic pentameter? "A caveat to watch for with require"
18:02	gfredericks	(inc technomancy)
18:02	lazybot	⇒ 41
18:02	gfredericks	woah man he's on the brink
18:03	gfredericks	technomancy: you get to do one more good deed and then you have to stop
18:03	ssideris	hello, I do a lein push and I get no error, but the jar is not showing up in clojars... any ideas?
18:03	technomancy	gfredericks: still got 87 to go assuming an unsigned int
18:03	tomoj	seangrove: where's that r come from? I think you'll have to extend IEncodeClojure to the other Object. which is.. weird
18:03	technomancy	ssideris: try `lein deploy clojars`?
18:03	ssideris	thanks
18:03	technomancy	unsigned byte rather
18:05	tomoj	(identical? (type x) js/Object) (from the default IEncodeClojure) only works if x was creating in the same js context
18:05	tpope	technomancy: ran into a similar issue with in-ns, and solved it with eval \o/
18:05	tomoj	I wonder if protocols have a similar problem?
18:06	Sgeo\|web_	What problem?
18:06	Sgeo\|web_	Oh, that thing I don't quite understand
18:11	ssideris	technomancy: lein deploy clojars asks me for my username and after I enter it, it stops
18:17	technomancy	ssideris: some kind of networking issue maybe? proxy?
18:17	ssideris	technomancy: nope, i'm at my straightfoward home network :-)
18:17	ssideris	Leiningen 2.0.0-preview8 on Java 1.6.0_26 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
18:18	ssideris	on windows
18:18	ssideris	in cygwin
18:18	ssideris	scp is installed
18:18	ssideris	(if that's relevent)
18:19	technomancy	hrm; scp shouldn't be necessary
18:19	technomancy	maybe try preview10? can't remember if we fixed any deploy bugs.
18:19	ssideris	ok, let me see...
18:19	S11001001	ssideris: what kind of terminal?
18:19	ssideris	mintty
18:20	ssideris	let me try from vanilla cmd
18:20	S11001001	oh windows huh
18:20	ssideris	yes
18:21	ssideris	hm, with cmd it goes a bit further, but then it complains about the lack of gpg
18:21	ssideris	so I take it needs to be in the path
18:21	technomancy	ssideris: you can disable the signing of releases if you just want to get it out to the clojars classic repo
18:22	ssideris	oh sure
18:22	ssideris	is it easy?
18:22	technomancy	crap; it looks like that might not be documented
18:22	technomancy	:deploy-repositories {"clojars" {:url "https://clojars.org/repo" :sign-releases false}} ; IIRC
18:23	ssideris	in profiles.clj?
18:23	technomancy	yeah, in the :user profile
18:23	ssideris	ok, thanks, let's see...
18:23	technomancy	that means your jar won't get promoted to the releases repository though
18:23	technomancy	so in the long run it's best to get GPG installed so you can sign your deployment
18:24	brehaut	having just done the GPG thing for lein / clojars recently: its such a simple process if you follow the instructions that its totally worth taking ten minutes to do it
18:25	technomancy	brehaut: well, on unix anyway =(
18:25	technomancy	thanks for the vote of confidence though =)
18:25	brehaut	technomancy: oh. yeah windows. balls
18:25	technomancy	it's really worth learning how to use public-key encryption anyway though because it's an invaluable tool every professional developer should be comfortable with
18:26	ssideris	technomancy: thanks, it worked! i'll set it up properly at some point...
18:27	technomancy	cool
18:27	technomancy	ssideris: so it worked from lein.bat but not mingw?
18:27	ssideris	it seemed to be an input problem
18:28	technomancy	oh, like it was unable to prompt for credentials?
18:28	ssideris	mitty (the cygwin terminal) would exit after pressing enter after the username
18:28	ssideris	yes
18:28	technomancy	you can use gpg to encrypt your credentials so you don't have to re-enter them every time
18:28	technomancy	useful thing to have! =)
18:28	ssideris	sure, I'll do it soon, it's my first time through the process, so I'm still setting up
18:28	technomancy	yeah, one step at a time
18:29	ssideris	so, there is a "more official" repo that contains signed jars and the old clojars repo is being decommissioned soon?
18:30	technomancy	ssideris: it's not being decommissioned; it's just not going to be checked by default in lein 2.0.0 final
18:30	technomancy	you still use the classic repo to deploy to the releases repo
18:30	technomancy	I really need to get better docs around that
18:32	ssideris	oh so the old one is like a staging repo for snapshots etc?
18:33	technomancy	yeah, it's the "anything goes" repo
18:33	technomancy	and qualifying non-snapshot jars may be promoted into the releases repository, which is backed by S3 and only accepts jars with signatures and proper metadata (:url, :license, etc)
18:34	ssideris	sounds like a good plan
18:34	technomancy	in theory anyway
18:35	ssideris	I'm trying to make the new C2 :-)
18:35	ssideris	promoting fragmentation in the community
18:35	tomoj	I wonder if delay was left out of cljs on accident
18:36	ssideris	making sure that newcomers are overwhelmed by too many libs :-D (joking)
18:37	egghead	i missed the LA data viz talk last week :(
18:37	egghead	been reading cljs up and running, good stuff
18:59	tomoj	s/I wonder if delay was left out of cljs on accident//
18:59	tomoj	..duh
18:59	tomoj	it's just in the macros file
19:28	kirindave	Got an odd problem.
19:28	kirindave	~/.m2 has clj-json installed
19:28	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:28	kirindave	It's in my project.clj
19:28	kirindave	lein deps runs cleanly.
19:28	clojurebot	Leiningen 2 is still in a preview release, but see the upgrade guide: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Upgrading
19:28	kirindave	But (:require [clj-json [core :as json]]) fails
19:29	kirindave	Anyone seen anything like that beofre?
19:30	seancorfield	how does it fail kirindave ?
19:30	kirindave	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clj_json/core__init.class or clj_json/core.clj on classpath:
19:30	technomancy	kirindave: any reason you haven't upgraded to cheshire? clj-json is pretty outdated.
19:30	nDuff	Hrm.
19:30	seancorfield	what does lein classpath show? (to make sure it picks it up)
19:31	kirindave	It certainly does
19:31	kirindave	technomancy: This is not new code.
19:31	kirindave	Just trying to recompile.
19:32	kirindave	technomancy: Also 90% of what chesire adds does not interest me whatsoever. clj-json's austerity was liberating.
19:32	kirindave	seancorfield: Lein classpath does indeed have the right path to the jar.
19:33	kirindave	And I've already checked (and re-downlaoded). It's a valid zip file that contains the files I'd expect.
19:34	kirindave	I've been off in haskell land for awhile so I haven't touched this build for 2 months. Kinda confused where it'd go wrong over that short a span.
19:34	technomancy	kirindave: you're just more likely to end up with version conflicts the more libs you add since clj-json brings in a really old jackson
19:35	kirindave	technomancy: Interesting. Could that manifest as a failure to find clj-json.core?
19:36	kirindave	It's trivial for me to just rip it out. I guess I'll try that.
19:38	technomancy	kirindave: no, it'd be classnotfound in jacksonland
19:39	jonasac	anyone got some recommendations for database-migrations/dsl to query a defined connection and also maybe something to mock db calls
19:39	technomancy	kirindave: maybe check `lein classpath` matches (System/getProperty "java.class.path") from inside the repl?
19:39	kirindave	technomancy: It does.
19:39	technomancy	jonasac: I use this for migrations: https://github.com/heroku/buildkits/blob/master/src/buildkits/db/migrate.clj
19:40	kirindave	technomancy: Cheshire seems to work fine.
19:40	technomancy	kirindave: how about (clojure.java.io/resource "clj_json/core.clj")?
19:40	kirindave	So, uh, I'm going to pretend I didn't see this.
19:40	kirindave	technomancy: Unless this is valuable feedback for you to chase a bug.
19:40	technomancy	kirindave: heh probably not?
19:41	kirindave	technomancy: One thing you learn doing fulltime scala: stop pretending java deps are anything but sane and as a result your sanity is retained. :)
19:41	kirindave	Err, but insane.
19:41	seangrove	tomoj: What do you mean created in the same js context?
19:41	technomancy	yeah; at least with clojure there are only a few layers and it's pretty transparent to peer around them
19:41	kirindave	Can't spend time caring about maven or ivy anymore. Got too many stress lines already. :D
19:42	kirindave	technomancy: Btw what I was talking about in that tweet is that like… if you have an emacs paredit error in the NS macro it still fails to really tell you what happened. :)
19:42	tomoj	seangrove: like if the object was created in another frame
19:43	kirindave	Probably because everyone uses raw macros and not MBE so error reporting is something of a pain.
19:43	seangrove	Ah, ok, makes sense
19:43	technomancy	kirindave: oh man that's like a confluence of badness
19:43	technomancy	the ns macro and error messages
19:43	kirindave	technomancy: Every macro, really.
19:43	kirindave	technomancy: I love chas's bandalore library, for example. But argument errors propagate a lot of weirdness that is not always obvious. :)
19:43	seangrove	I suppose I could deep-copy the object into a new one in the local context
19:44	kirindave	technomancy: At least we get more error messages now. Remember when it was just silent fail? :D
19:44	kirindave	technomancy: Those were the kinda errors you huddle around the campfire at night scaring your friends with tales of.
19:44	tomoj	I wonder if extending IEncodeClojure to object would work
19:45	tomoj	I don't really know what 'object' means
19:46	chillenious	hi folks. quick n00b question.... I'm trying to call a static method of a class without any parameters, but that seems to confuse Clojure into thinking it should be looking for a field
19:47	chillenious	in Java, I'd do CsvSchema.emptySchema(), so I thought I'd do (CsvMapper/emptySchema) in clojure
19:47	chillenious	any hints?
19:49	jonasac	technomancy: thanks
19:49	seangrove	tomoj: seems like that was the issue, yes: (js->clj (json/parse (json/serialize obj)) worked
19:49	nDuff	chillenious: Generally, what you're doing now is the right thing.
19:49	seangrove	Unfortunately I think it might be in one of the more performance-critical paths, we'll see if there's too much overhead
19:50	nDuff	chillenious: ...of course, it'd be (CsvSchema/emptySchema), to make the class names match up.
19:51	tomoj	seangrove: maybe try this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/74e81f0e917f54c4f7bdba415 (untested)
19:51	tomoj	er
19:52	tomoj	that won't work ofc
19:52	chillenious	gives me java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: emptySchema, compiling:(com/teachscape/libview/views.clj:90)
19:52	seangrove	S'alright, you already helped me figure out the problem for now
19:52	tomoj	I left out the thisfn from the default IEncodeClojure impl
19:52	tomoj	but that won't really work since that's the problem
19:52	seangrove	I can at least make some progress now
19:53	tomoj	and recurring on -js->clj incurs option parsing too many times
19:53	chillenious	oh, duh good point nDuff
19:54	chillenious	yeah, that was the problem
19:54	chillenious	thanks
19:56	technomancy	Raynes: the great thing about the new gist is that all existing tooling/clients for gist are broken
19:56	technomancy	consider it an opportunity =)
19:57	tpope	technomancy: whoa, they broke the api?
19:57	technomancy	apparently
19:58	technomancy	I just use scpaste, so I don't particularly care.
19:58	tpope	curl https://api.github.com/gists
19:58	tpope	works for me
19:59	sshack	This is a bit left field. There are no clojure libraries for dealing with /bad/ date/times are there?
19:59	technomancy	s/all existing tooling/all nontrivial tooling/
20:00	sshack	Things like parsing 61/19/1983, into something incorrect, but at least a correct date.
20:00	technomancy	sshack: I couldn't find anything when I looked
20:00	technomancy	that was like 2 years ago though
20:00	tpope	shrug
20:00	sshack	I have a feeling there's a million of them, all baked into insurance applications on ibm mainframes.
20:00	tomoj	seangrove: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-439
20:00	sshack	Written in cobol of course.
20:01	technomancy	sshack: there's at least one in clojure baked into a document processing pipeline =)
20:01	seangrove	tomoj: Thank you
20:01	technomancy	my favourite was one where the timezone was "X-User-Defined"
20:06	tomoj	I wonder what the options for IEncodeClojure are supposed to be for, other than keywordize-keys
20:07	tomoj	see a possible path to a fix if it were changed to a boolean or keyfn, cheshire style
20:07	sshack	technomancy: Sigh. See that's my trouble.
20:08	sshack	You'd think that handling malformed dates would be built into time/date libraries. But no, authors seem to think the real world is some pristine beautiful place.
20:08	sshack	Full of unicorns, and pixie dust.
20:08	technomancy	you'd think people who have studied the history of the Gregorian calendar wouldn't be capable of that fallacy
20:09	technomancy	on the other hand: do one thing and do it well
20:09	technomancy	they are certainly orthogonal concerns, and I'd much rather have a solid foundation than a library that tried to do everything and didn't get it right
20:10	sshack	I think that leads us to where we are now.
20:10	sshack	Lots of individual programmers making kludges "just so I can get this done and move on"
20:11	technomancy	right; but Joda as a foundation is pretty solid
20:11	technomancy	whereas Ruby's has parsing built in, but isn't immutable
20:11	brehaut	i frequently wish i had joda in python
20:11	technomancy	I guess Ruby did get interval calculations though at least
20:12	sshack	Can joda guess an invalid date?
20:12	hiredman	nlp is not a solved problem, dates are a large subset of nlp
20:12	technomancy	sshack: no
20:13	brehaut	even humans cant guess invalid dates correctly
20:13	technomancy	yeah, and then you have issues with the stupid american month order introducing ambiguity too
20:13	brehaut	yeah
20:13	brehaut	first step is to ban ##/##/year date formats all together
20:14	sshack	brehaut: Correct.
20:14	sshack	YYYYMMDD only
20:14	sshack	no two digit years.
20:14	brehaut	yup. dots optional
20:14	technomancy	nah just switch to metric time
20:14	brehaut	technomancy: are you sure you are an american?
20:15	hiredman	kiloseconds!
20:15	technomancy	brehaut: difficult to self-identify as such
20:17	brehaut	in america do you get to use the really wacky imperial units like hogsheads etc?
20:17	brehaut	or just the boring ones
20:17	technomancy	furlongs and fortnights
20:17	hiredman	depends how committed to the bit you are
20:18	technomancy	at least our money is base-100 though
20:20	seangrove	Think it might be time to add edn as an output format in the rails format
20:21	seangrove	err, rails app
20:21	amalloy	fathoms, probably
20:24	seangrove	Has anyone used edn much in javascript-land? We have an rpc-bridge that has to speak json over Chrome's postMessage method, and slightly worried about the overhead of parsing/serializing edn in hotpaths
20:25	brehaut	seangrove: have you looked at https://github.com/shaunxcode/jsedn ?
20:25	seangrove	brehaut: on second thought, I may be able to use the cljs reader, no?
20:26	brehaut	seangrove: if you are clojurescript, definately
20:26	seangrove	Yeah, I'm in cljs-land, but they have to communicate over a js-pip that'll convert everything to json
20:26	tomoj	chrome extension?
20:26	seangrove	Yeah
20:27	brehaut	seangrove: i cant speak for the clojurescript reader or jsedn, but theres no reason that the deserializer cant be screaming fast
20:27	tomoj	could both sides share the same exact compiled cljs?
20:27	seangrove	I believe so, though there might be some problems
20:27	seangrove	Why?
20:27	clojurebot	why not?
20:27	tomoj	if so maybe you could just send cljs objects over directly
20:27	brehaut	seangrove: i implemented a sort of lossless clojure reader for a SyntaxHighlighter mode and was able to get it to be quite snappy
20:28	tomoj	not sure about that..
20:28	seangrove	tomoj: Well, they're not allowed to share objects, they just have methods to post messages to one-another
20:28	seangrove	The messages have to be json-serializable without circular references
20:29	seangrove	But I could presumably have a kludge of {"payload": "{:a 5 [1 2] {:name :mike :age 40}}"} and have the cljs reader read it in on every message
20:29	tomoj	huh, do the cljs data structures have circular references?
20:29	seangrove	Oh, no
20:29	seangrove	Just mentioning the full set of restrictions
20:32	tomoj	I think hashes will make that not work anyway
20:36	brehaut	im curious how edn → js works wrt to objects being shitty maps
20:37	hiredman	alists!
20:39	brehaut	aha
21:02	arohner	are there any examples of active/recent clojure projects using native deps?
21:11	mpan	I'm wondering if the following would be a good example of a program to try to solve while learning core.logic or not. It asks to find all solutions to a constraint satisfaction problem. I think they expect "normal" solutions to use explicit search, backtracking, and subproblem memoization, and they're very clear that you need an efficient solution to be able to run in a reasonable time.
21:12	mpan	I guess the problem is essentially isomorphic to finding all strings of given length satisfying given constraints about some of their characters in some positions with regard to each other.
21:13	mpan	A difficulty is that they expect you to count the number of solutions, and that number is exponential in problem size.
21:14	mpan	I suppose in that regard it shares some features with Sudoku, but all the core.logic examples I've seen for Sudoku essentially hardcode the board size with a logic var per position, so I'm not sure if this is an appropriate approach or where to begin.
21:19	tomoj	they ask you to find all solutions or just count them?
21:19	mpan	They say to count them, but as far as I can tell, that does involve actually finding them.
21:20	tomoj	..so exponential is efficient enough?
21:20	mpan	Or, rather, the "normal" solution is expected to traverse the answer space modulo subproblem memoization, even if it doesn't explicitly keep track of all the valid solutions.
21:20	tomoj	ah
21:20	mpan	Exponential with really good subproblem memoization is supposedly good enough, but that's just hearsay.
21:22	mpan	The only thing preventing the "normal" solution from recording all valid solutions is memory issues, I think.
21:22	mpan	In the sense of, if you were to record them all to RAM, you might start swapping.
22:19	mthvedt	what do clojurians use for continuous testing on a local machine
22:22	amalloy	mthvedt: `watch lein test` is about as advanced as it gets
22:23	mthvedt	that is not very advanced
22:24	mabes	mthvedt: lazytest has an autotest feature. I use it with midje and it fits my needs
22:29	mthvedt	mabes: neat, having a look
23:03	technomancy	mthvedt: most people use in-editor auto-tests rather than watching the filesystem
23:03	jaimef_	technomancy: !
23:03	technomancy	there's an emacs after-save hook, etc
23:03	mthvedt	technomancy: anything for vim?
23:03	technomancy	well maybe not "most people" but most people who do auto-testing
23:03	technomancy	mthvedt: asking the wrong person =)
23:03	jaimef_	technomancy: what's the way to fix the 'jack-in is not a task' issue with emacs/swank?
23:04	technomancy	jaimef_: nrepl? =)
23:04	technomancy	jaimef_: just need to make sure lein-swank is installed as a plugin
23:05	jaimef_	code for M-x package-install nrepl :P
23:05	jaimef_	seems to be a lot of movement in the syntax for lein
23:05	jaimef_	will use nrepl thanks
23:09	tpope	would in editor testing delegate to a repl, or would it spawn something like lein test?
23:17	technomancy	tpope: lein test is way too slow
23:17	technomancy	clojure-test-mode builds on slime (originally) and now nrepl.el
23:17	technomancy	highlighting which lines had failures
23:18	tpope	yeah that was going to be my next question
23:18	tpope	most of this stuff shouldn't be that hard now that we have a vim nrepl interface
23:21	amalloy	technomancy is telling tpope lein test is too slow! today must be backwards feature-request day
23:21	tpope	ha!
23:22	technomancy	oh snap
23:22	technomancy	yeah tpope can you make lein test faster while you're at it?
23:22	xeqi	+1
23:22	technomancy	xeqi: hey good to see you
23:23	technomancy	been offline traveling?
23:23	xeqi	technomancy: a little, more trying to compartmentalize irc usage to evenings, when it gets quiet
23:23	technomancy	I hear ya
23:25	technomancy	just been realizing lein progress has stalled out a bit; hope to spend some time on docs for the new repo this week
23:25	lynaghk	Any iPhone owners interested in testing out a ClojureScript-powered iOS weather application?
23:25	xeqi	haha, yeah, my hopes for more time have been dashed by holidays/family
23:26	technomancy	xeqi: well, priorities
23:27	xeqi	technomancy: I remember a issue for lein search indexes and using some library for searching, did that get implemented?
23:28	technomancy	xeqi: sorta
23:28	technomancy	we switched to the maven implementation, and it's faster, but it has a different set of problems
23:29	xeqi	ah, was hoping for seomthing easy to replace the sqlite3 text search for clojars :p
23:29	dr1	Hello, how do I load project files so I can run them? When I do (in-ns 'project.core) followed by (project.core/-main), I get this output: IllegalStateException Attempting to call unbound fn: #'project.core/-main clojure.lang.Var$Unbound.throwArity (Var.java:43)
23:29	technomancy	xeqi: the analyzer is a bit of a mess. we have a lot less control.
23:31	xeqi	dr1: hmm, I haven't used a plain repl for awhile.. maybe (load "project/core.clj") ?
23:32	dr1	this project has a number of files, so hopefully there's a way to load them all. but when I try that, I get back FileNotFoundException Could not locate project/project.core__init.class or project/project.core.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:432)
23:34	xeqi	loading that file will also load any it requires
23:36	technomancy	dr1: most libraries don't have a -main function
23:36	dr1	it's not a library
23:37	technomancy	typically "unbound fn" means -main has been created but not given a value
23:37	dr1	it's an application (built by someone else). I'm very new to clojure so I'm sure this is simple. I actually had it running earlier after executing a bunch of the project's functions.
23:37	technomancy	(declare -main) or some such
23:38	dr1	it definitely exists… I just seem to not be loading the files properly
23:38	dr1	though I am in the namespace and can call functions from it
23:44	dr1	hmm… I think I may have made some bad modification to the code… I got a fresh copy and it seems to load using the steps above :/
23:54	amalloy	dr1: in-ns doesn't load anything from the filesystem
23:54	amalloy	you need to (require 'the-project) first
23:55	dr1	amalloy: I realized what I was doing… I ran lein repl from the project directory so it was automatically loading the project files
23:55	dr1	in-ns wasn't doing anything
23:55	dr1	I'm used to OOP… this is reeeeeeally confusing :)
23:57	amalloy	nah, you haven't even gotten to the paradigm shifts yet; this is just the usual confusion that happens with any new language
23:57	Sgeo\|web	Oh hey apparently Raynes has ... talked in a Reddit thread about Factor -- mostly complaining about lack of docs
23:57	Sgeo\|web	(I seem to be interested in Factor again for some reason)
23:58	dr1	haha yea, I got a brief overview… it was impressive and a bit overwhelming
23:59	dr1	I'm definitely going to be doing a good amount of googling and asking stupid questions for a while