#clojure – 2012-10-23

2012-10-23

00:04	Sgeo	,(resolve 'resolve)
00:04	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/resolve
00:05	Sgeo	Hmm.
00:05	Sgeo	tryclj yells at resolve
01:52	tomoj	"extends java.lang.Object" makes me cry
01:53	muhoo	doesn't everything ultimately extend java.lang.Object?
01:59	Sgeo	Except primitives. Because hey, there's no reason to have a _completely_ universal subtype, is there?
02:05	Licenser	grrr
02:06	tomoj	muhoo: I mean the high frequency of directly extending object and not implementing any interfaces
02:09	Sgeo	Then again, I guess I don't do much OO programming... or any programming...
02:10	antares_	Sgeo: that's not bad, just wasn't practical efficiency-wise in mid-to-late 90s
02:11	Sgeo	And something relevant to then bothers tomoj now?
02:19	amalloy	tomoj is objecting because it means all your application code has to be custom-built to deal with specifically the new "bespoke data holders" you made up
02:24	Licenser	antares_ I think that explains it, java is efficiency-wise in the mid-to-late 90s too ;)
02:31	amalloy	i can't think of any "efficiency-wise" concerns related to extending Object directly
02:36	alex_baranosky	do any of the JSON serialization libraries have default Object serializer that just toStrings the Object? I'm using Cheshire and if it doesn't know of a Class it throws an exception which is too strict for my needs
02:36	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Can't you extend its protocol?
02:36	alex_baranosky	Raynes: hmmm good question. Probably. Let me see
02:37	Raynes	I've done it before. Not sure if it was for cheshire, but I've done it for some json lib.
02:37	alex_baranosky	Raynes: not Cheshire. It doesn't use protocols
02:38	alex_baranosky	but in general I'll look for a Protocol-using library. Thanks
02:38	Raynes	wat
02:38	Raynes	alex_baranosky: clojure.data.json is extensible.
02:38	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Can you use this add-encoder stuff?
02:39	Raynes	I see why it doesn't use protocols, duh, the JSON parser is Java.
02:39	Raynes	alex_baranosky: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/blob/master/src/cheshire/custom.clj
02:40	Raynes	There is too a protocol.
02:40	Raynes	For the Clojure stuff.
02:40	alex_baranosky	Raynes: thanks for the help, I appreciate it
02:44	alex_baranosky	Raynes: it looks like the curom.clj is meant to be used separately from the standard Cheshire stuff, is that right?
02:45	Raynes	"In version 3.0.0 and above, custom encoding first attempts to encode the object using the core encoding (because it would be faster). If the encoding fails, it uses the custom encoding mechanics to encode the JSON. If this is undesirable, use the generate-string, generate-stream and generate-smile* methods to overwrite this."
02:45	Raynes	alex_baranosky: ^
02:47	Raynes	Well, that seemed more helpful when I read it the first time.
02:47	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Strangely, yes, it appears the core stuff doesn't touch custom.
02:48	alex_baranosky	Raynes: I've just spent some time reading through it. Sounds like custom was added later
02:48	alex_baranosky	but it will work for me.
02:48	Raynes	alex_baranosky: It appears that you can just use custom instead of core. It's a drop-in replacement.
02:48	alex_baranosky	I'm just going to extend the JSONable protocol to Object
02:48	Raynes	I'm not sure why this isn't the default. I imagine because of performance.
02:54	amalloy	Raynes: because throwing an exception is better than silently serializing to garbage
02:54	Raynes	amalloy: I think you read that wrong.
02:55	amalloy	i see. i thought you were replaying to alex
02:55	Sgeo	I'm not sure how JSONifying arbitrary Objects is useful?
02:56	antares_	alex_baranosky: Cheshire is now extensible, too
02:56	Raynes	antares_: Backlog.
02:56	antares_	alex_baranosky: I switched clojurewerkz.org projects to use it, had to sacrifice no functionality, works great
02:56	Raynes	We just had a whole discussion about that.
02:56	antares_	Raynes: I know, just sharing my experience
02:56	alex_baranosky	Sgeo: is that a rhetorical question? :D
02:56	Raynes	Yeah, but you said "Cheshire is no extensible" even though we had already established this.
02:56	Raynes	:p
02:56	antares_	Raynes: imma to busy writing clojah docs to read backlogs :P
02:56	antares_	*too
02:57	Raynes	Sgeo: In his case he wants to do something with objects that aren't by default serializable to json that isn't throw an exception.
02:57	Raynes	antares_: You're going to the conj this year?
02:58	antares_	Raynes: nope
02:58	Raynes	Bah.
02:58	Raynes	Nobody is.
02:58	Sgeo	Hmm, does serializable-fn use &env?
02:58	Raynes	Sgeo: Yes.
02:58	alex_baranosky	Sgeo, Raynes: at Runa we're experimenting with logging as JSON. The OPs guys prefer data because they can script over it easier
02:58	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Why not edn?
02:58	Sgeo	Raynes, cool
02:58	antares_	Raynes: I live too far away, hold the wrong citizenship and my international passport is expiring in less than 6 months (so, no US visa) :)
02:59	antares_	alex_baranosky: logs-as-data is a fantastic practice
02:59	Sgeo	What other uses are there for &env ?
02:59	alex_baranosky	Raynes: what is edn?
02:59	Sgeo	edn : clojure :: json : javascript
02:59	antares_	alex_baranosky: https://github.com/edn-format/edn
02:59	Raynes	alex_baranosky: https://github.com/edn-format/edn
03:00	alex_baranosky	Sgeo: macros that do crazy stuff with symbols, and want to be able to discern between ones that are locally bound
03:00	alex_baranosky	Raynes: ahhhh EDN, I knew of it, but forgot the acronym
03:01	alex_baranosky	Raynes: I think in general the answer to that question I always get is "JSON has better tool support"
03:01	Raynes	I can't imagine what tools you'd use.
03:01	Raynes	But I don't know the set up.
03:01	alex_baranosky	I can't either, but talking to them, they preferred JSON
03:01	alex_baranosky	not a big deal.. it is in experimental mode now anyway
03:02	Raynes	Who needs those darn reasons anyhow!
03:02	alex_baranosky	easy to switch to printing Clojure data
03:30	muhoo	in the beginning, there were sexps. then, there was xml. now, there is json.
03:34	Raynes	And then there was muhoo...
03:36	brainproxy	datomic's aggregators are pretty cool :)
03:37	Sgeo	fml. Remind me to never tutor without documenting everything in 20 different places
03:37	Sgeo	*tutor for money
03:39	_ulises	only 20?
03:39	_ulises	make that 50 and add some friendly reminders every 5 min to go and read those notes
03:55	tomoj	hah
03:55	tomoj	user> (easy!)
03:55	tomoj	:awesome
03:56	tomoj	datomic.samples.repl/easy! to be precise
04:08	wingy	can anyone get this
04:08	wingy	actual: (not (= (["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]) (["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6])))
04:08	wingy	its a clojure.test result .. they seem to be identical .. i can't get why the test fails
04:10	wingy	having quotes around them and running in repl: (not (= '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]) '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]))) ;; => false
04:10	wingy	so they should be identical
04:10	wingy	some hidden caveat of clojure i'm not aware of?
04:12	_ulises	wingy: ordering?
04:12	_ulises	oh, sorry, didn't see they're identically ordered
04:12	wingy	_ulises: but they have the same ordering
04:12	_ulises	wingy: can I see the test?
04:13	hyPiRion	Ahh, numbers.
04:13	hyPiRion	,(not (= '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]) '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6])))
04:13	clojurebot	false
04:13	hyPiRion	This seems to work quite well though. You have a not in front.
04:14	hyPiRion	If you suspected them to not be equal, the result should be true.
04:14	_ulises	hyPiRion: the not is appended by the clojure.test lib. I think
04:14	hyPiRion	oh.
04:14	_ulises	hyPiRion: to tell you they're not =
04:14	_ulises	hyPiRion: yeah, it's confusing
04:14	wingy	sure … wait
04:15	hyPiRion	wingy: Try to remove the floats with integers instead. Might be that.
04:15	_ulises	hyPiRion: +1 I was about to say
04:15	kral	namaste
04:16	alex_baranosky	is there standard community-supported bit of code for making Compojure routes ignore trailing slashes?
04:16	wingy	nope
04:16	wingy	(not (= (["en-GB" 1.0] ["en" 1.0] ["en-US" 1]) (["en-US" 1] ["en" 1] ["en-GB" 1])))
04:16	wingy	wait the ordering is wrong
04:17	alex_baranosky	wing, you are saying a list is equal to itself
04:17	alex_baranosky	wingy: you want, (not (= ["en-GB" 1.0] ["en" 1.0] ["en-US" 1]) (["en-US" 1] ["en" 1] ["en-GB" 1])) ;; right?
04:18	alex_baranosky	otherwise its like you're saying (= 1) ;; always true
04:19	hyPiRion	alex_baranosky: He's comparing two seemingly equal lists, and get false.
04:19	_ulises	wingy: a tangential comment: have you considered midje? it's got great matchers for collections
04:19	wingy	hyPiRion: i used ints and it works
04:19	alex_baranosky	ahhhh my fault, I see.
04:19	hyPiRion	wingy: ahh, floats. Those bastards!
04:19	wingy	putting 1.0 instead of 1 yield unexpected behaviour again
04:20	wingy	but on the repl when i run: (= '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]) '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]))
04:20	wingy	it yields true
04:20	wingy	so float is struggling just for clojure.repl?
04:20	wingy	i found a bug?
04:21	_ulises	perhaps there's some odd boxing going on?
04:22	hyPiRion	wingy: It's just floating point representation which is terminated early.
04:22	hyPiRion	,(= 0.80235 (+ 0.12345 0.67890))
04:22	clojurebot	false
04:23	_ulises	this is why I was suggesting midje, it's got good matchers for collections and floats/doubles
04:23	_ulises	so you can say "is this number within the vicinity of this other one" when you want to check 0.8 against 0.8
04:23	wingy	is there any way to get that test passing in clojure.test?
04:24	wingy	the real test looks like: (is (= (util/parse-accept-lang "en-US,en;q=0.8,en-GB;q=0.6") '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6]))))
04:24	_ulises	wingy: can't think of anything other than manually checking each pair and checking for (< (abs (- n1 n2)) delta)
04:24	tgoossens	,(= 1.0 (+ 0.9 0.1))
04:24	clojurebot	true
04:24	hyPiRion	A nasty hack could be, like.
04:24	hyPiRion	,(= (str '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6])) (str '(["en-US" 1] ["en" 0.8] ["en-GB" 0.6])))
04:24	clojurebot	true
04:25	hyPiRion	Though I wouldn't exactly recommend it, heh.
04:25	_ulises	wingy: I'd first break the check into individual contains? checks
04:25	wingy	_ulises: yeah i wanted to use midje but: https://github.com/marick/Midje/issues/152
04:25	_ulises	wingy: is that a showstopper? you can have lazytest watch code changes for you
04:26	wingy	_ulises: im not a fan of watchers .. that would run yet another jvm instance
04:26	wingy	im more a fan of repl based dev
04:27	wingy	also the lazytest thing is so buggy!
04:27	wingy	yield duplication of output
04:27	amalloy	wingy: what does ##(= (Long. 1) (Integer. 1)) say for your clojure version?
04:27	lazybot	⇒ true
04:28	wingy	amalloy: it says true
04:30	wingy	hyPiRion: i did that .. it worked .. i'll stick with that
04:30	wingy	at least its more accurate then having a delta like midje
04:30	wingy	clojure was not flawless!
04:30	clgv	"delta like midje"?
04:31	wingy	clgv: _ulises: so you can say "is this number within the vicinity of this other one" when you want to check 0.8 against 0.8
04:31	clgv	ah ok. delta distance for equality check on floats..
04:32	amalloy	hyPiRion, wingy: str is an especially bad measure, because lazy-seqs print as LazySeq@hashcode; at least use pr-str
04:34	wingy	amalloy: done
04:34	wingy	thx for the help all
05:17	wingy	i need to rebind System/currentTimeMillis but it says unable to resolve var
05:17	wingy	(with-redefs [System/currentTimeMillis #(do 1350981302764)]
05:17	wingy	do i need to import it first?
05:17	_ulises	wingy: not sure that's a var
05:18	jaley	wingy: it's not a far, that's a java static function
05:18	wingy	ok
05:18	_ulises	wingy: can you not depend on a wrapper to currentTimeMillis and then rebind that?
05:18	wingy	is there a way to mock it?
05:18	jaley	wingy: a var, sorry
05:18	_ulises	wingy: wrap it with an fn then mock that
05:18	wingy	ok
05:18	jaley	wingy: you'd need to change the code calling it to use some wrapper, afaik
05:18	clgv	wingy: no thats a static function call
05:19	wingy	yeah .. :(
05:23	wingy	_ulises: did as you said .. everything for testability
05:23	wingy	then i made the wrapper a private fn .. private fns dont need tests (its untestable anyway)
05:24	clgv	wingy: btw. do is not the idiomatic choice there. use (constantly 1350981302764)
05:24	wingy	ok thx for pointing out
05:24	clgv	wingy: `constantly` works also for functions with arguments
05:24	_ulises	wingy: yeah, +1 on constantly and wrapping :)
05:24	wingy	yeah do should be for side effects?
05:25	_ulises	wingy: no side effects ever ;)
05:25	wingy	_ulises: im sure (do) is used for side effects, but perhaps you thought i meant constantly
05:26	_ulises	wingy: I meant you shouldn't have side effect ever
05:26	_ulises	wingy: do is generally used for side effects, yes
05:27	wingy	you always need some side effects eg. printing out things
05:27	_ulises	potentially yes
05:27	wingy	but yeah i hate side effects
05:28	wingy	having hard time to test them .. especially http requests
05:28	_ulises	I mean, if by side effects you mean sending a response over the wire (in the case of a web app) then sure
05:29	_ulises	wingy: how are you trying to test them?
05:30	wingy	_ulises: im not sure yet, that will be the next thing i do, to test some service libraries using http to communicate with the services .. i think i'll just mock the requests/responses
05:30	wingy	_ulises: if you have suggestions for testing please share though
05:30	wingy	especially for side effects
05:31	_ulises	wingy: well, it depends on what libs you're using; I think ring has helpers for this, noir does too
05:31	_ulises	wingy: but in principle, it should be enough to test your handlers, and if you're handlers are simple function calls, then testing those function calls it another thing you can test
05:32	_ulises	wingy: it also depends on what type of testing you want to do, at what level, etc.
05:32	wingy	i think that mocking/stubbing is good for: 1. execution speed 2. you see clearly what you send and receive, and only the http header values you return
05:32	_ulises	wingy: again, it depends on what you're wanting to test. If you only care about http headers, then sure.
05:33	wingy	3. good documentation as well .. i wasn't a big fan of TDD before but it got too uncontrolled without a good understanding for the code
05:33	_ulises	wingy: midge is great for tdd
05:34	Licenser	this is a bit confusing: (list? (map inc [1 2 3])) => false
05:34	lucian	Licenser: it returns a seq, i think
05:34	_ulises	,(doc map)
05:34	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
05:34	wingy	can't start another jvm for it … imagine when Light Table is out .. i wanna programmatically run things from that process
05:34	_ulises	Licenser: see the doc; it returns a lazy seq
05:35	Licenser	isn't a lazy squ a list too
05:35	lucian	no
05:35	_ulises	Licenser: I think it's the other way around
05:35	lucian	they're both collections though, i think
05:35	wingy	the more jvm instances are up the more RAM is eaten up and slower my laptop gets .. also just bad style altogether .. i hated to start watchers on node.js as well
05:35	_ulises	Licenser: actually, no, what lucian said methinks
05:36	lucian	so if you do (coll? (map ...)) it should be true
05:36	lucian	just like (coll? []) or (coll? '())
05:36	_ulises	wingy: not sure what you're on about? I generally have a small JVM for my slime/nrepl and another small one for midje and I don't have a stunning laptop really
05:37	Licenser	but isn't a lazy seq behaving like a list
05:38	_ulises	Licenser: not necessarily; seq is an abstraction over several collections
05:38	_ulises	Licenser: the fact that it has (first ...) etc. which are common list operations doesn't mean it's a list
05:38	_ulises	although duck-typers would say otherwise
05:39	hyPiRion	a list and a lazy-seq are both seqs, but a list is not a lazy-seq and vice versa.
05:39	lucian	you can do (seq [1 2 3]), which returns a seq that is certainly not a list
05:39	Licenser	_ulises what I mean is, aside from the way how it's stored it behaves like a list, the performance characteristics etc are all listy or do I misunderstand it
05:39	Sgeo	_ulises, operations on a lazy seq can cause side effects, whereas operations on a list cannot. Is that sufficiently different for a duck-typer to say they're different?
05:57	_ulises	Sgeo: potentially :)
06:06	Raynes	I sometimes duck when I type,
06:07	_ulises	heh
06:08	michaelr525	i never dype when i'm tuck
06:10	ejackson	i'm more of the duck 'n cover type, myself.
06:27	alex_baranosky	what's the modern way to handler trailing slashes in routes in composure these days?
06:39	clgv	Licenser: you can use sequential? for that purpose
06:39	goracio	hi if i use :production profile how i can reference this in my -main func to use prod db and if profile :dev which is default i use devdb
07:07	goracio	so no one using profiles :)?
07:09	Raynes	More that it's 4-7AM in the US and everybody is asleep.
07:14	goracio	Raynes: but you don't )
07:15	Raynes	goracio: And my life suffers for it.
07:15	goracio	Raynes: so can you suggest the answer ?
07:16	Raynes	Profiles aren't visible in code. You can probably use https://github.com/davidsantiago/configleaf or project middleware for it, but I don't know the specifics.
07:20	goracio	Raynes: heh ok i just did this ( if (= (first args) ":dev")) ( connect to dev db) ( connect to prod db)
07:21	goracio	Raynes: it seems like heroku launch proj with something like - lein run :production
07:24	tgoossens	i have a function called format-string. What is currently does is
07:24	tgoossens	(clojure.string/replace string "\"" "==")
07:25	tgoossens	i also want a function deformat-string
07:25	tgoossens	that does the inverse
07:25	ljos	Hello, I was just wondering, does anyone have an example of how to use definline properly. I am not exactly sure if I understand the documentation.
07:25	xeqi	goracio: I've started using https://github.com/weavejester/environ for profile specific config
07:25	tgoossens	but I prefer not to duplicate all the differenct replaces i'm going to do
07:25	ljos	Should have been a questionmark in there as well.
07:27	goracio	xeqi: ok wiil look at that but my hack works ok so far :)
07:36	tgoossens	if have a collection
07:37	tgoossens	(a b c d e f g)
07:37	tgoossens	and i want to make it into a string
07:37	tgoossens	a \| b \| c \| d
07:37	tgoossens	what is a good way to do this?
07:38	hyPiRion	string/join
07:38	clgv	goracio: you could add the info via jvm parameters like describer in 2.14 compiler-options Var in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
07:38	hyPiRion	,(clojure.string/join " \| " [1 2 3 4 5 6 7])
07:38	clojurebot	"1 \| 2 \| 3 \| 4 \| 5 \| 6 \| 7"
07:38	tgoossens	hmm
07:39	tgoossens	ok that works but
07:39	tgoossens	i get this
07:39	tgoossens	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e3ad37c \| clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e3ad37c \| clojure.lang.LazySeq@c78525b7"
07:39	tgoossens	a b c d e f g are lazy sequences
07:39	tgoossens	and guaranteed to be finite
07:42	hyPiRion	tgoossens: (seq a) (seq b) etc.
07:42	tgoossens	ok cool
07:42	tgoossens	it worked :p
07:42	tgoossens	(clojure.string/join " \| " (map seq coll))
07:42	tgoossens	thanks
07:44	hldfr	On http://www.4clojure.com/problem/22 , I'm trying to use for, this works in REPL, but fails on 4clojure -
07:44	hldfr	5:07 PM
07:44	hldfr	(#(apply + (for [x %] '1)) "Hello World")
07:44	hldfr	5:07 PM
07:44	hldfr	-> 11
07:44	tgoossens	not quite there yet :) now it prints
07:44	hldfr	how does this trip alarm on 4clojure -> "You tripped the alarm! count is bad!"
07:45	tgoossens	(a0 a1 a2 ..) \| (b0 b1 b2 ..) \| ...
07:45	tgoossens	must become
07:45	tgoossens	a0 a1 a2 \| b0 b1 b2 \| ...
07:46	hldfr	Why should use of 'for' on http://www.4clojure.com/problem/22 trip the alarm meant for use of 'count' ?
07:48	tgoossens	(clojure.string/join " \| " (map #(clojure.string/join " " (seq %)) s)
07:48	tgoossens	that did it
07:49	clgv	,(macroexpand-1 '(for [x (range 5)] 1))
07:49	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [iter__2887__auto__ (clojure.core/fn iter__33 [s__34] (clojure.core/lazy-seq (clojure.core/loop [s__34 s__34] (clojure.core/when-let [s__34 (clojure.core/seq s__34)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? s__34) (clojure.core/let [c__2885__auto__ (clojure.core/chunk-first s__34) size__2886__auto__ (clojure.core/int #) b__36 ...] (if (clojure.core/loop # #) (clojure.core/chunk-cons # #) (...
07:49	clgv	&(macroexpand-1 '(for [x (range 5)] 1))
07:49	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [iter__4468__auto__ (clojure.core/fn iter__318475 [s__318476] (clojure.core/lazy-seq (clojure.core/loop [s__318476 s__318476] (clojure.core/when-let [s__318476 (clojure.core/seq s__318476)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? s__318476) (clojure.cor... https://www.refheap.com/paste/6052
07:49	clgv	hldfr: the expansion contains a `count`
07:50	hldfr	Ah! so 4clojure restricts internal use of count too :) nice
07:51	Chousuke	how would you use for to solve that anyway?
07:51	hldfr	like this - #(apply + (for [x %] '1))
07:51	clgv	hldfr: it's the chunked buffer implementation that bites you there
07:51	Chousuke	hldfr: :P sounds like a complicated way to avoid reduce
07:52	clgv	Chousuke: thats what I thought^^
07:52	Chousuke	you have a seq and you want to produce a single value -> use reduce
07:55	Chousuke	if clojure had an "ignore second argument" HOF you wouldn't even need anonymous functions.
07:57	Chousuke	hldfr: oh, and it's not necessary to quote literal numbers. it's a no-op.
07:57	wingy	why do we even mock http requests responses .. isn't it much better just to run the live test code?
07:57	wingy	so it will be real data returned
07:58	wingy	wrong channel nvm
07:59	hldfr	yes, quoting wont be needed
08:00	hldfr	Chousuke why would (map #(1) [1 2 3 4]) not work, where by #(1) I mean a function that returns 1 for anything passed into it
08:00	hldfr	I get an ArityException on this
08:00	hldfr	If I explicitly state it in fn form with one arg it works (map (fn [x] 1) [1 2 3 4])
08:01	hldfr	what would be anonymous equivalent fo (fn [x] 1)
08:01	Chousuke	hldfr: #(1) expands to (fn [] (1))
08:02	Chousuke	you can do #(do 1) to circumvent that
08:04	hldfr	#(do 1) still gives back ArityException
08:05	Chousuke	hldfr: use a fn form then
08:05	hldfr	yeah
08:06	Chousuke	but you don't need to create a seq of 1s to solve this problem
08:06	Chousuke	(there's also the "constantly" function
08:07	Chousuke	but reducing over the parameter once is all you need, if you can figure out which function to reduce with
08:07	hldfr	ah nice, I could map (constantly 1) over the seq
08:08	hldfr	that too, that sounds more better
08:10	hldfr	Okay, I figured out this with reduce - #(reduce (fn [x y] (+ x 1)) 0 %)
08:11	Chousuke	you can actually remove the #() wrapping the whole thing and just write "reduce (fn ...) 0" as the answer
08:11	hldfr	yes
08:12	Chousuke	also there's a way to simplify your anonymous function just a bit even though it's correct :)
08:12	Chousuke	you could use inc :P
08:12	hldfr	damn yes :)
08:22	Cubic	,(doc .)
08:22	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
08:59	clgv	Chousuke: inc increases the golf score ;)
08:59	clgv	"+ x 1" => 3 chars, "inc x" => 4 chars ^^
09:01	Chousuke	clgv: they're both 5 characters
09:02	Chousuke	space counts too
09:07	clgv	Chousuke: I dont think so. I checked that some time ago
09:10	clgv	Chousuke: just checked - whitespace does not count
09:13	wingy	_ulises: you get duplicate output using lein midje --lazytest as well?
09:13	_ulises	wingy: I don't think I do. I don't use lazytest much though, I use midje-mode to run my tests
09:14	wingy	_ulises: that is for emacs?
09:14	_ulises	wingy: yeah
09:16	wingy	_ulises: https://github.com/marick/Midje/issues/149
09:16	wingy	:/
09:16	wingy	this is what i hate with midje
09:16	wingy	so buggy
09:17	wingy	and the creator is not taking it seriously
09:17	wingy	has been there forever
09:17	_ulises	wingy: :/
09:18	_ulises	yeah, well brian's a bit tied up, perhaps some delegation is in order
09:18	_ulises	or even forking midje
09:30	clgv	wingy: he is currently writing a book.
09:30	wingy	clgv: i noticed that
09:30	wingy	perhaps i'll buy it
09:30	clgv	wingy: I cannot say that midje is very buggy. but I do not use lazytest mode
09:31	wingy	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6055
09:32	clgv	wingy: does the symbol "animal" exist?
09:32	wingy	clgv: no i thought that was what provided did
09:32	clgv	it has to. thats a design choice I guess.
09:32	wingy	so declare
09:32	clgv	you can "declare" it or define an empty function
09:33	wingy	clgv: ok thx it works now
09:33	clgv	using facts about something non-existent doesnt sound very reasonable. I'd like to get an error there since it might be a typo
09:34	wingy	right
09:34	duck1123	provided has to have something to mock, the macro doesn't convert code at that level. IIRC
09:51	wingy	a comparison between midje and clojure.test
09:51	wingy	https://gist.github.com/3938823
09:54	_ulises	wingy: if you're going the midje way then you don't need the pr-str type of testing
09:55	wingy	_ulises: removing them caused failure
09:55	_ulises	wingy: see (roughly ...) in https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Checkers
09:55	_ulises	wingy: you'd check something like 1.0 => (roughly 0.000001) or something silly like that
09:56	wingy	_ulises: i dont get how to use that one in my test
09:56	_ulises	wingy: I'm wondering now whether the collection checkers will use roughly for you already
09:57	wingy	i wrapped the right form within (contains)
09:57	wingy	still error
09:57	_ulises	:/
09:57	wingy	i'll use pr-str til i figure out how to use roughly with my test
09:57	_ulises	sounds like something one would want to do often enough to have predefined checkers
09:57	_ulises	sounds good
09:58	wingy	_ulises: but i dont like it checks for roughly
09:58	wingy	then its not accurate
09:58	wingy	so perhaps pr-str is a better solution .. ugly but it is correct
09:59	clgv	wingy: pr-str is semantically wrong there
10:05	_ulises	wingy: again on roughly, you use it like 1.0 => (roughly 1.0), as for checkers that use it I guess you'd have to write your own
10:06	_ulises	wingy: roughly takes 2 args: number and delta, if delta is omitted then it's taken to be 1/1000 of the number given
10:08	wingy	_ulises: yeah but i dont get how to make it work in my test:
10:08	wingy	(util/parse-accept-lang "en-US,en;q=0.8,en-GB;q=0.6") => '(["en-US" (rougly 1)] ["en" (rougly 0.8)] ["en-GB" (rougly 0.6)])
10:08	wingy	didnt cut it .. am i doing something wrong
10:09	_ulises	wingy: no you're not; I mean, you need your own checker along the lines of the contains checker. Something like (contains-languages ["en-US" 1] ...)
10:09	_ulises	wingy: then in (contains-languages ...) you'd use (roughly...)
10:09	wingy	okay
10:09	_ulises	wingy: thing is, your test would be a lot more readable too
10:09	wingy	yeah
10:10	_ulises	wingy: because (contains-languages ...) reads better than any other combination of contains, fns, roughly and any other magic you might put in place
10:10	_ulises	IMHO
10:20	wingy	the reason i stick with midje is that i rather read midje tests when reading other devs code
10:20	wingy	can understand their code faster
10:20	wingy	rather than acting like a compiler in my mind
10:23	clgv	wingy: yeah they are more declarative than clojure test which is almost as programming tests in java ;)
10:24	wingy	yepp
11:21	hammer	i don't suppose midje plays nice with maven sites?
11:22	hammer	i know i know, how enterprisey :)
11:45	lynaghk`	Is there a nice way I can run a string of code in a certain namespace as if it were just pasted into that namespace? (i.e., it can refer to vars that have been imported into that ns by :use)
11:46	lynaghk`	And before anyone gets crazy about read-string + eval, this is for getting clj code from within markdown and replace it with the result, so I'm open to better ideas if there are any...
11:48	wingy	what does this do: (fact (function-generator 3) => (exactly odd?)
11:48	wingy	i cant get it
11:48	wingy	from https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Checkers
11:52	noidi	wingy, it checks that function-generator returns the function `odd?`
11:53	noidi	without the `exactly` it would check that calling `odd?` on the return value of `function-generator` returns a truthy value
11:54	hcumberdale	Hi
11:54	wingy	noidi: i see .. but that was a weird way to describe what function-generator does
11:54	hcumberdale	how to pass the wrap-file-info from ring custom mime types ? (wrap-file-info {"woff" "application/x-font-woff"})
11:54	wingy	why would passing 3 as arg return a odd? function
11:55	noidi	wingy, maybe the body of function-generator is (if (= arg 3) odd? even?)
11:55	noidi	:)
11:55	hcumberdale	when (wrap.... is included in -> macro: (-> my-routes ....
11:56	wingy	hehe yeah weird
11:57	wingy	kinda cool that you can compare functions
11:57	wingy	,(= '(fn [] 1) '(fn [] 1))
11:57	clojurebot	true
12:01	amalloy	wingy: those aren't functions
12:01	wingy	amalloy: isn't that how midje is comparing
12:02	amalloy	i don't know anything about that. but you just compared two lists
12:02	scriptor	wingy: got a link to the code? Either way, what amalloy said
12:02	wingy	yeah
12:02	scriptor	clojure has no clue that those are functions
12:03	wingy	so to compare two functions you can make a list out of them and compare them
12:03	wingy	: ,(= (list (fn [] 1)) (list (fn [] 1)))
12:03	scriptor	as in comparing the code of the functions or the function objects themselves?
12:03	tomoj`	you get functions from lists, not lists from functions
12:03	amalloy	wingy: given the impossible step 1, yes, your step 2 would work
12:03	tomoj`	&(= (list (fn [] 1)) (list (fn [] 1)))
12:03	lazybot	⇒ false
12:04	wingy	scriptor: the code of the fns
12:04	tomoj`	I suppose you can get lists from many functions, but unless the function is a quine..
12:05	wingy	something that just came into my mind since midje is comparing fns .. if i didn't mistake
12:05	tomoj	by identity?
12:05	tomoj	&(= odd? odd?)
12:05	lazybot	⇒ true
12:06	scriptor	wouldn't it be possible to create your own macro like fn that saves the function as a list in the fn's metadata?
12:06	scriptor	and by "like fn" I mean wrapping around defn
12:07	TimMc	scriptor: serializable-fn
12:07	scriptor	sweet
12:07	TimMc	Another product of the HagelBorg.
12:08	TimMc	I think it came out of some caffeinated code swarm in Seattle.
12:08	scriptor	is it possible to rebind macros?
12:09	TimMc	I... I don't see why not...
12:09	duck1123	you'll have to re-eval where that macro is used
12:09	jamii	Is there a way to locally 'use a namespace? Like (using 'my-ns (do ...)). I don't want to pollute the whole ns with imports but I have one fn that could really do with them...
12:09	TimMc	scriptor: You mean dynamic binding?
12:10	TimMc	jamii: I wrote something for use in tests.
12:10	scriptor	TimMc: right, but just wondering how different it'd be since the bindings are created in compile time
12:11	TimMc	jamii: https://github.com/timmc/handy/blob/master/src/org/timmc/handy.clj#L53
12:12	TimMc	jamii: In use: https://github.com/timmc/handy/blob/master/test/org/timmc/test/handy.clj#L56
12:13	TimMc	The downside is that vars from the "containing" ns aren't visible.
12:14	jamii	TimMc: I think that will work. I'm just building a huge AST to boostrap this compiler and I don't want the compiler namespace to be full of AST forms. Thanks :)
12:15	TimMc	Why not use an actual separate namespace, then?
12:16	technomancy	you can easily create throwaway namespaces with gensym; see slamhound for an example
12:18	TimMc	That's what with-temp-ns does, except it has to do some extra stuff since it doesn't know what ns it will be called from. :-)
12:19	technomancy	cool
12:19	TimMc	This is probably the one time I have committed eval.
12:41	Cubic	What does some-name# mean in macros?
12:42	tomoj	`foo#
12:42	tomoj	er, ##`foo#
12:42	lazybot	⇒ foo__318513__auto__
12:43	Cubic	So it's like a gensym?
12:43	dakrone	Cubic: it's shorthand for a gensym
12:43	Cubic	dakrone: I see
12:44	egghead	hi #clojure, does anyone here have experience with defining a 'catch-all' route for compojure?
12:44	clgv	,(read-string "`foo#")
12:44	clojurebot	(quote foo__29__auto__)
12:44	clgv	,(read-string "foo#")
12:44	clojurebot	foo#
12:45	egghead	ah, didn't know I could use * as the route url
12:45	clgv	it's not really a shortcut literally. the reader already does something
12:47	amalloy	TimMc, jamii: if you wanted something less like temp-ns and more specifically a "local" 'use, you could write https://gist.github.com/3939975
12:48	jamii	amalloy: thats perfect :)
12:50	amalloy	macrolet solves so many problems in interesting ways
12:54	tgoossens	in leiningen when i do read-line
12:54	tgoossens	i can type something
12:54	tgoossens	but how do i "enter" something
12:55	tgoossens	pressing enter doesn't seem to work
12:55	technomancy	tgoossens: try lein trampoline repl
12:56	tgoossens	sorry making it clearer
12:56	tgoossens	it is when doing
12:56	tgoossens	lein run
12:56	technomancy	lein trampoline run then
12:56	tgoossens	the main function expects user input
12:56	tgoossens	ah
12:56	tgoossens	ok
12:56	tgoossens	i need to look wat what trampoline is then. never heard of it
12:57	tgoossens	cool that worked :p
12:59	technomancy	though it occurs to me this could be fixed in lein itself
13:03	tgoossens	hmm?
13:04	technomancy	for a while we couldn't support it, but I think we can now
13:05	tgoossens	do you work on the leiningen project
13:05	tgoossens	?
13:05	technomancy	yeah
13:05	technomancy	I just pushed a fix
13:05	tgoossens	nice :)
13:07	tgoossens	lein uberjar also gives problems: can't find main class
13:08	tgoossens	do i have to add something to project.clj file?
13:08	technomancy	yeah, have you read `lein help tutorial`?
13:08	oskarth	Trying to write more readable tests for macros. How do I trim of clojure.core namespace qualifications in macroexpand? That is, turn clojure.core/defn into defn, or something to that effect
13:08	tgoossens	Nope. thanks for the tip
13:13	emezeske	oskarth: It seems like if the macro is supposed to produce clojure.core/defn, that's what you should check for in your test
13:13	emezeske	oskarth: If it's just producing the raw symbol defn, it's not actually working correctly, right?
13:13	oskarth	emezeske: right, that is true - it just gives very unreadable tests when it is just standard clojure.core functions being used
13:14	oskarth	oh, it does other things too
13:15	oskarth	emezeske: here's the test https://www.refheap.com/paste/6059
13:15	oskarth	(changed macroexpand to macroexpand-1 tho)
13:18	emezeske	Well, you could use syntax quote in the compared expression, but then you'd need to unquote-quote the symbols like not* in* and out*
13:19	clgv	oskarth: doesnt a test with macroexpand just repeat the macro implementation and is thus useless?
13:19	emezeske	Which would likely be uglier: `(~'not* (fn [~'in ~'out] ...
13:20	oskarth	you are both right
13:21	oskarth	just trying to add tests to a macro which isn't working the way I expect it to, but I think I'm approaching it the wrong way
13:22	emezeske	oskarth: One problem with the macro is that it emits (fn ([...] ...)) instead of (fn [...] ...)
13:23	emezeske	oskarth: Also, I disagree with clgv, that test is perfectly useful
13:23	oskarth	emezeske: so the use case is to have two arguments, representing a vector of inputs and a vector of supposed outputs
13:23	oskarth	so it's a non-standard in having two params vectors
13:23	emezeske	Ah, gotcha
13:24	emezeske	I was being silly calling that a problem anyway
13:24	oskarth	and then there's some threading going on which binds outputs to other inputs
13:24	oskarth	emezeske: do you have any examples of good tests for macros?
13:24	emezeske	clgv: The test doesn't just repeat the macro implementation; it ensures that the name (not*) and params ([in], [out]) are put in the right places, etc
13:24	emezeske	oskarth: I'm afraid I don't
13:25	nightfly_	How can I do something like: `(fn [example#] (when ~(contrived example#))) expect that works?
13:25	emezeske	oskarth: I don't see anything bad about your test
13:25	emezeske	oskarth: (although I'm not an expert in testing macros)
13:26	clgv	nightfly_: (fn [example#] (when (~contrived example#))) but if `contrived` is a function you do not need the unquote
13:26	clgv	`(fn [example#] (when (~contrived example#)))
13:26	oskarth	I see, thanks for your help!
13:27	oskarth	and I guess the ns qualification is better than doing unquoting and stuff, too complex
13:27	clgv	oskarth: you can use clojure.walk/postwalk with `name` to replace namespaced symbols by their names only
13:28	emezeske	oskarth: I don't think the qualified names look bad, but that's just IMHO.
13:28	clgv	or you could use ##`defn
13:28	lazybot	⇒ clojure.core/defn
13:28	Sgeo	Wait, what's the problem?
13:28	oskarth	hm, that seems doable, will play around with that, thanks
13:28	oskarth	it's supposed to map the other way around though
13:28	Sgeo	##`~'bla
13:28	lazybot	⇒ bla
13:28	oskarth	clojure.core/defn to defn
13:29	oskarth	or that I misunderstand you?
13:29	Sgeo	##`(~'defn foo [bar#] baz)
13:29	lazybot	⇒ (defn clojure.core/foo [bar__318544__auto__] clojure.core/baz)
13:29	oskarth	emezeske: in general I agree, but with clojure.core it feels odd somehow, not used to seeing it that way
13:29	Sgeo	But what's wrong with
13:29	Sgeo	##`(defn foo [bar#] baz)
13:29	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/defn clojure.core/foo [bar__318555__auto__] clojure.core/baz)
13:29	Sgeo	exactly?
13:30	clgv	,(= `(defn ~'bla []) (`defn 'bla []))
13:30	clojurebot	false
13:30	nightfly_	contrived is function I want to evaluate at in a macro at compile time that also takes another argument that isn't a generated symbol. I want to pass the generated symbol into the function untouched so the generated code can use it by name.
13:30	clgv	lol k
13:30	clgv	nightfly_: you have to manually create a gensym outside the syntax-quote and use that one
13:30	Sgeo	clgv, symbols are literally just a name string with an optional namespace string
13:31	oskarth	bbl
13:31	clgv	Sgeo: I know
13:31	Sgeo	It's different from Common Lisp symbols
13:33	Sgeo	:(
13:33	Sgeo	Clojure doesn't like opaque objects being embedded in code
13:33	Sgeo	This makes me uneasy
13:33	Sgeo	Or maybe ideone is just really really weird
13:34	Sgeo	http://ideone.com/8i92E3
13:34	amalloy	Sgeo: you can't do it in any other language afaik
13:34	Sgeo	Not exactly the sort of exception I'd expect to get
13:34	Sgeo	amalloy, Common Lisp I think
13:34	clgv	,(read-string "#=(java.lang.Object.)")
13:34	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
13:35	Sgeo	clgv, oh hey that works http://ideone.com/Z9Drik
13:35	Sgeo	So why does this not work http://ideone.com/o2u3PT
13:36	Sgeo	(doc print-dup)
13:36	clojurebot	"; "
13:36	Sgeo	...
13:36	Sgeo	,(print-dup 5)
13:36	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$fn--2718$fn>
13:37	Sgeo	Oh hey I guessed the name of a class and got it right
13:37	Sgeo	(StringWriter)
13:38	Sgeo	,(with-open [w (java.io.StringWriter.)] (print-dup w 5) (.toString w))
13:38	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'print-dup' for dispatch value: class java.io.StringWriter>
13:39	TimMc	It doesn't make sense to serialize a writer.
13:40	nightfly_	clgv: Thanks, trying that now
13:40	TimMc	Maybe someone can figure out how to do that in some crazy language, but I don't think Clojure can support it meaningfully.
13:40	clgv	SGeo: you want (defmacro env [] (let [symbols (keys &env)] (zipmap (map (fn [sym] `(quote ~sym)) symbols) symbols))) ?
13:40	clgv	Sgeo: ^^
13:41	Sgeo	clgv, I wrote a simpler version of that macro a while back I think
13:41	Sgeo	Or... depends if you prefer for and into over map and zipmap
13:41	clgv	Sgeo: it looked like you wanted that in http://ideone.com/o2u3PT
13:41	Sgeo	clgv, I wanted to learn more about those weird values
13:42	Sgeo	clgv, seriously, I was giddy with glea after writing https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886
13:42	TimMc	You might be better off reading the compiler.
13:45	Sgeo	,(with-open [w (java.io.StringWriter.)] (print-dup 5 w) (.toString w))
13:45	clojurebot	"5"
13:45	Sgeo	,(with-open [w (java.io.StringWriter.)] (print-dup (Object.) w) (.toString w))
13:45	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'print-dup' for dispatch value: class java.lang.Object>
13:46	Sgeo	Hmm, so how come #=(Object.) is acceptable?
13:47	amalloy	Sgeo: one is printing and the other is reading...?
13:47	Sgeo	Oh, I just realized a cheap trick to ... wait, no.
13:47	Sgeo	Hey, is there anything terribly gross about def'ing to a gensym... oh, that doesn't even help me
13:48	Sgeo	Because I can't def to a gensym from the macro itself without using eval
13:51	Sgeo	Hmm. Maybe all my problems are because I was attempting to print the &env and I got that confused with it disliking the &env being in code
13:51	alex_baranosky	: what's the modern way to handler trailing slashes in routes in composure these days?
13:52	Sgeo	I blame Clojure's horrible stack traces.
13:52	Sgeo	Wait, it actually does say "Can't embed object in code"
13:52	Sgeo	Oh, hmm, that time I surrounded it by quote
13:53	Sgeo	,(quote (Object.))
13:53	clojurebot	(Object.)
13:54	Sgeo	Yeah, it's because of the quote
13:55	Sgeo	I don't entirely get it, why it shouldn't work
13:58	Sgeo	(doc special-symbol?)
13:58	technomancy	emezeske: just a heads-up; pushed a change to leiningen that may interfere with cljsbuild's repl
13:58	clojurebot	"([s]); Returns true if s names a special form"
13:58	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? with-meta)
13:58	clojurebot	false
13:58	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'with-meta)
13:58	clojurebot	false
13:58	Sgeo	Hmm.
13:58	Sgeo	It's mentioned in LispReader.java
13:58	technomancy	eval-in-project will now hook up in to the subprocess's stdin unless you bind leiningen.core.eval/pump-in to false
13:59	xeqi	alex_baranosky: rewrite :uri or return a redirect with middleware
14:00	emezeske	technomancy: Okay, thanks for the heads-up
14:00	emezeske	technomancy: I'll try to give it a test tonight
14:00	technomancy	emezeske: I think your plugin is probably the only one that uses in
14:00	alex_baranosky	xeqi: such a common feature has to be rewritten by every web app writer ?? :\
14:00	technomancy	but if anyone knows of any others, let me know
14:00	emezeske	technomancy: So if it is a problem, I can just bind pump-in?
14:01	amalloy	alex_baranosky: you can be the hero who saves us all from our drudgery. write it once in a library, and heavily advertise your solution so everyone uses it
14:01	xeqi	alex_baranosky: could use the one in lib-noir if desired ; https://github.com/noir-clojure/lib-noir/blob/master/src/noir/util/middleware.clj#L28
14:01	technomancy	emezeske: yeah, if you don't bind it to false you'll have race conditions reading from in
14:01	xeqi	(inc amalloy)
14:01	lazybot	⇒ 33
14:01	technomancy	emezeske: for reference: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/ecdc783f2da25b8c8fd1c0af051d7c1f6af7a09a
14:01	emezeske	technomancy: Thanks
14:02	alex_baranosky	amalloy: I'm hearing a Peter Cetera song now in my head. I think I can be that hero!
14:02	alex_baranosky	amalloy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69hglPNOiTI
14:03	alex_baranosky	xeqi: thanks for the noir link.
14:03	amalloy	Raynes: is that function in lib-noir borrowed from 4clojure? i know i told you and chris to take whatever you wanted, but i didn't realize you had
14:04	amalloy	(obviously you could have written that yourself, but it's identical down to the character, so i'm curious)
14:08	Sgeo	So much for embedding atoms into code.
14:08	Sgeo	Namespace polluting gunk with eval, here I come!
14:14	Sgeo	I am an absolutely terrible person http://ideone.com/BTJxYN
14:15	nDuff	shudder.
14:17	nDuff	Sgeo: I've pulled LocalBindings out of the thread-local space before, after doing a bunch of reflection to make them accessible.
14:17	nDuff	Sgeo: ...it's also dirty, but at least it leaves the namespace as it found it.
14:17	amalloy	Sgeo: no, but that's a useless thing to do anyway. what are you going to do with a LocalBinding object?
14:18	amalloy	the only thing you can usefully do is get its value, which you could do without eval, and can't do the way you've written it
14:18	Sgeo	Is there any way to undef?
14:20	Sgeo	nDuff, I'm curious what that looks like
14:22	Sgeo	I was going to ask, doesn't eval accept an env, but apparently it doesn't
14:22	nDuff	Sgeo: https://gist.github.com/2912188
14:23	Sgeo	I don't think I can begin to comprehend that
14:24	Urth\|School	girl next to me in English left the sleeve tag on her overcoat
14:24	Urth\|School	woops
14:24	Urth\|School	wrong channel ><
14:24	Bronsa	lol
14:24	Urth\|School	Too many irssi windows open, sigh
14:24	nDuff	...actually, I think the clojure-frame-vars function in there would have been a good answer to the person in here yesterday asking when you'd ever have a use case for for as opposed to fn+map. :)
14:24	pandeiro	how can i get nrepl.el 0.1.5 from marmalade? when i package-install it only seems to find 0.1.4
14:25	technomancy	pandeiro: M-x package-refresh-contents?
14:25	Iceland_jack	Urth\|School: Solution, turn off IRC client; go outside
14:25	scriptor	presumably he's in class
14:25	Sgeo	I think anytime you're drawing from more than one list is a good use case
14:25	Sgeo	erm, more than one seq
14:26	Urth\|School	The English major affords plenty of opportunity to go outside, thankfully
14:27	pandeiro	technomancy: doh thks
14:29	wingy	im reading about identity/states in JoY .. it says that an identity has a notion of time so you can go back and forth between different states .. how is this done in clj?
14:30	seancorfield	each state is immutable and has its own identity
14:30	wingy	i know values are immutable, but how does one have an identity with different values over time, allowing us to time travel (like in Datomic)
14:31	nDuff	wingy: You have to actually deref at an older time to have an instance of it.
14:31	Sgeo	wingy, you can store the old values somewhere and look at them again later
14:31	nDuff	wingy: ...instances that aren't referenced anywhere get GC'd.
14:31	seancorfield	what they said (more coherently than me)
14:31	Sgeo	Although I imagine it can't be that difficult to make sort of atom-like thing with time travel capability
14:32	nDuff	s/have an instance of it/have a reference to that prior time's instance/
14:32	wingy	Sgeo nDuff seancorfield : okay i thought you could have one identity (reference type) to hold different values over time
14:32	nDuff	...you could almost start from an atom with a listener.
14:33	nDuff	wingy: Not to give you a single point of access for all those values, no, unless you build that yourself. But Clojure _does_ give you the tools to build that yourself, if you want to.
14:34	wingy	good that datomic did it for us then :)
14:35	wingy	reading the book one think you can time travel (the flip book example with a runner)
14:35	Sgeo	wingy, you want time travel, try Scheme
14:36	wingy	they have time travel? :)
14:36	seancorfield	wingy: in datomic it uses an identity for a series of values, i believe, so you use identity + time to retrieve an entity at a given point in time
14:36	wingy	seancorfield: yeah
14:36	Sgeo	wingy, call/cc is nuts
14:36	Sgeo	Although apparently not as good as shift/reset, but whatever
14:37	Sgeo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-with-current-continuation
14:47	Cheiron	Hi, assoc-in is going to create array-map, correct? is it possible to create sorted-map?
14:50	hcumberdale	Is there a better way to write: (filter #(and (= "example" (:category %)) (= true (:active %))) (read-posts))
14:50	scriptor	Cheiron: it's not possible to assoc onto a sorted-map in the first place, right?
14:50	nDuff	...ahh, need to go through nrepl.cmdline/-main
14:50	scriptor	Cheiron: sorry, disregad that
14:51	Cheiron	scriptor: not sure actually. assoc is going to add entry according to map implementation , i guess?
14:51	scriptor	right
14:51	nDuff	hrm; getting "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: complete.core" on attempts to use tab completion in nrepl.el...
14:52	nDuff	...separate dependency? Ahh.
14:52	Sgeo	Why are you comparing with true rather than just using truthiness? (There are reasons that that might make sense, but good to think about)
14:53	scriptor	Cheiron: you'll still get a sorted map back, specifically a PersistentTreeMap, if you assoc-in onto a sorted map, it seems
14:54	scriptor	,(class (assoc-in (sorted-map 1 :foo 2 (sorted-map 10 20)) [1] 4))
14:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
14:54	scriptor	,(class (assoc-in (sorted-map 1 :foo 2 (sorted-map 10 20)) [2 10] 4))
14:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
14:54	scriptor	Cheiron: ^
14:55	Cheiron	scriptor: thanks!
14:56	hcumberdale	mhh!
14:58	pelismo	so i've written a clojure based API (mostly handing out json), but i'm unsure at how to implement gracefull errors (other than just exploding 406 and 500 at the client's face)
14:59	pelismo	would love a pointer to any examples/idea of projects on github I could learn from
14:59	nightfly_	Have pretty 406's and 500's?
15:00	pelismo	well somewhat. my code either throws exception (when clients submit invalid params, such as malformed uris), or just fails because it has no results in DB (applicative errors)
15:00	nDuff	pelismo: If what you want is better exception handling tools, have you looked at Slingshot?
15:02	wingy	which one is better if i wanna make a concat a string: using protocol and extend the String class with it (cat "foo" "bar") .. or just defining a fn taking strings as args (cat-str "foo" "bar")
15:02	Sgeo	I still wish I knew what was so terrible about embedding opaque objects into code
15:03	wingy	i am curious if protocol/class is worth the trouble with thinking about classes and interfaces which reminds me about oop
15:03	pelismo	nDuff: so wrapping my head over functional programming, and the fact that i'm returning data structures doesn't help mee
15:03	wingy	or should we stay simple and just have a simple fn taking expected args
15:03	nightfly_	(str "this" "that") not good enough?
15:04	Sgeo	wingy, the typical thing is to just make a fn, I think
15:04	nDuff	wingy: Look at where/how/why Clojure itself uses protocols.
15:04	wingy	nightfly_: yeah im talking about an imaginary fn we need to make ourselves
15:04	Sgeo	Unless you want the function to work with different types in different ways that you might not anticipate
15:04	nDuff	wingy: If you don't need one, don't use one -- but if you're writing something for which extension points make sense, they're often perfect.
15:05	Sgeo	nDuff, except they work based on classes which are leakage from Javaness :(
15:05	wingy	i guess it boils down to: writing an abstraction (for implemetations) or implementation directly
15:05	nDuff	Sgeo: ...which makes them fast. If you care about performance, letting underlying implementation leak through makes sense sometimes.
15:06	Sgeo	nDuff, which might be a good reason to hate the fact that Clojure is on the JVM
15:06	nDuff	Sgeo: At least for me, I work in an environment where performance _does_ matter, quite a lot; I'm barely able to justify Clojure as it is, on those grounds -- if it didn't take advantage of things the JVM is good at, it'd be flat out.
15:06	nDuff	Sgeo: Heh. I wouldn't be able to use it at all if it weren't.
15:06	Sgeo	Ah
15:07	wingy	nDuff: what are you working with if I may ask?
15:08	nDuff	wingy: The employer is a search engine. The individual project involves event stream processing -- at present, using Esper as backend.
15:09	wingy	okay
15:14	wingy	nDuff: I searched for "defprotocol" in the clojure git repo without matches .. how does it use protocols?
15:15	nDuff	wingy: well, the biggest one is ISeq :)
15:16	nDuff	wingy: ...yes, they're implemented as Java interfaces there, but they're the whole reason the standard library functions work across more than one datatype each.
15:23	wingy	JoY says numbers, strings and keywords evals to themselves .. it didn't mention character, boolean and collections. don't they evaluate to themselves as well?
15:24	Sgeo	Lists don
15:24	Sgeo	Lists don't evaluate to themselves
15:25	wingy	,'(1)
15:25	clojurebot	(1)
15:25	wingy	why doesn't it?
15:25	Bronsa	,(1)
15:25	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
15:25	Sgeo	wingy, quote prevents the usual evaluation rules
15:25	Bronsa	it does not
15:25	wingy	ok
15:25	Sgeo	(1) is a list containing 1
15:26	Sgeo	'(1) is (quote (1)) which is a list containing the symbol quote and the list (1)
15:26	wingy	yeah, quote means dont eval
15:26	ttimvisher	any way to pass a `-D` property through to leiningen?
15:28	andrewmcveigh	ttimvisher: you can use a :jvm-opts ["-Dany.prop=true"] in project.clj
15:28	ttimvisher	andrewmcveigh: thanks!
15:28	ttimvisher	anyone had to deal with jvm dns cacheing before? might have some insight into how to flush it or set it to never on jvm start up?
15:29	ttimvisher	preferably looking to flush it in a running jvm
15:30	hiredman	ttimvisher: never heard of such a thing, are you sure it isn't your os?
15:30	ttimvisher	hiredman: absolutely
15:30	TimMc	Bronsa: You're lagging: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6067 :-P
15:31	Bronsa	lol
15:31	ttimvisher	hiredman: http://javaeesupportpatterns.blogspot.com/2011/03/java-dns-cache-reference-guide.html if you're interested
15:31	Bronsa	no wait.
15:31	hiredman	ttimvisher: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/net/properties.html#nct
15:31	ttimvisher	not that it's helpming me much :)
15:31	hiredman	interesting
15:32	TimMc	That's a strange default.
15:32	ttimvisher	hiredman: it's looking like the only way to successfully set that property is to actually edit the `java.security` file in the jvm
15:33	ttimvisher	and then restart the server
15:33	hiredman	ttimvisher: it is a -D property
15:36	ttimvisher	hiredman: setting it via -D takes no effect
15:36	hiredman	ttimvisher: shrug seems unlikely, are you really setting it?
15:40	llasram	ttimvisher: How are you checking for effect? By asking sun.net.InetAddressCachePolicy/get ?
15:40	ttimvisher	yep
15:40	ttimvisher	llasram: yes
15:40	ttimvisher	and by getting google.com
15:40	ttimvisher	via InetAddress
15:40	ttimvisher	hiredman: yes. System/getProperty returns the right value when we set it
15:40	tomoj	I want emacs commands for folding/unfolding arrows
15:41	ttimvisher	but sun.net.InetAddressCachePolicy/get returns 30
15:41	ttimvisher	unless you set it in java.security, and then it returns the right thing
15:41	ttimvisher	as does the system property
15:41	gf3	Hey #clojure, I'm off in #scala land and… I miss you guys
15:41	llasram	ttimvisher: Looks like InetAddressCachePolicy sets things in a static initializer
15:41	llasram	http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/jdk/file/9b8c96f96a0f/src/share/classes/sun/net/InetAddressCachePolicy.java
15:41	hiredman	but how did you set in the other way?
15:41	wingy	symbols are referring to vars and not values?
15:41	ttimvisher	llasram: yep
15:42	llasram	So if something (bootstrap classes?) causes that class to be loaded prior to the value getting set, then the property has no effect
15:42	hiredman	yeah, a lot of -D stuff is static, so you cannot set in via setProperty
15:42	ttimvisher	Now you can call sun.net.InetAddressCachePolicy/setIfNotSet but you can only increase the strictness
15:42	ttimvisher	if you try to decrease it you get a Security exception
15:42	hiredman	you could just reflectively fiddle the field
15:43	hiredman	have you checked propertySet ?
15:44	llasram	Man, this is why I always seem to end up writing my own IP address type
15:44	ttimvisher	hiredman: reflection is a possibility we haven't tried yet. not going to burn any more time on this now but thanks for the ideas!
15:47	hiredman	reflection is a must
15:48	wingy	do you call 1 a form?
15:51	wingy	now i get why collections don't eval to themselves .. they can contain a list
15:52	emezeske	wingy: Some collections do evaluate to themselves. ##[1 2 3 4] does, for instance
15:52	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
15:53	wingy	yeah
15:53	amalloy	wingy: containing a list isn't really the point. a vector [x y z] evaluates to [(x evaled) (y evaled) (z evaled)]
15:54	emezeske	amalloy: That is a good point, I guess I kind of lied
15:54	amalloy	emezeske: nah, you said something true but misleading
15:55	wingy	so it depends what they contain .. if they contain self-evaling data structures, they are self evaling
15:57	Sgeo	Suppose my code has a map like {(quote a) a, (quote b) b}
15:57	Raynes	emezeske: I updated lein-cljsbuild last night and ohmahgawd, I compiled my two-file node.js cljs test program and it worked. New cljs release ftw.
15:58	Sgeo	The first key is a list which will be evaled to a symbol, the value for that key is a symbol which gets evaled to whatever a is in that context, and similarly for the other entry
15:58	emezeske	Raynes: Haha, awesome! Did that project work with the naked clojurescript compiler before?
15:58	dnolen	Raynes: that's good to hear tho it still doesn't seem to to work for some people.
15:58	Raynes	dnolen: Really? Who says it doesn't work?
15:59	Raynes	emezeske: I don't know. Never tried it. I don't really know how to use the naked clojurescript compiler.
15:59	dnolen	Raynes: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-395
15:59	dnolen	Raynes: it's not fun, using the compiler by itself :)
15:59	emezeske	Raynes: I don't blame you :)
16:00	emezeske	Raynes: I just wondered if whatever started working was lein-cljsbuild or the compiler itself -- probably the compiler.
16:00	Raynes	dnolen: Well, to be fair, at least it's broken properly this time and not insanely.
16:00	Raynes	emezeske: It was the compiler for sure, because I reproduced without lein-cljsbuild before.
16:01	emezeske	Raynes: Okay, cool
16:02	Raynes	dnolen: That's pretty weird. :(
16:03	dnolen	Raynes: what the ticket?
16:03	Raynes	dnolen: My code probably works because I require cljs.nodejs.
16:03	dnolen	Raynes: I'm assuming from the ticket that the idea is to make it implicit
16:04	Raynes	Yeah, doesn't break for me at all, even without the require.
16:04	dnolen	Raynes: interesting ...
16:05	Raynes	Ah, yes it does. There was another in another file.
16:05	Raynes	dnolen: I can reproduce that guy's error
16:05	Raynes	tomoj is right, the workaround is to require cljs.nodejs manually somewhere in code.
16:05	dnolen	Raynes: so does making it implicit seem like a good approach?
16:06	tomoj	makes sense to me
16:06	tomoj	not much you're pulling in, and who cares on node.js anyway
16:06	dnolen	Raynes: implicit does seem preferred to me
16:06	dnolen	tomoj: yeah
16:07	tomoj	hopefully cljs.nodejscli is unlikely to change (or at least to change deps)
16:07	Raynes	dnolen: Makes sense, I think.
16:08	tomoj	maybe the bigger problem is that the dependency order sort is unstable?
16:09	dnolen	tomoj: the whole dependency order needs to work a la carte. source mapping needs it to provide accurate line number.
16:10	tomoj	not sure what you mean. that special injections like this disturb source mapping?
16:11	dnolen	tomoj: without knowing the final total order I'm not sure how we can know what lines map to what lines.
16:11	dnolen	tomoj: files are compiled individually by CLJS compiler, then ordered, then put through Closure compilation
16:12	dnolen	or ... that's what seems to happen far as I can tell.
16:12	tomoj	a stable sort won't hurt
16:13	dnolen	tomoj: oh yeah, I'm agreeing w/ that too.
16:13	tomoj	so what about the way things are is unsuitable for source mapping?
16:15	dnolen	tomoj: you need to know what line number to start at for each CLJS file - user might include GClosure libs, externals libs, etc. There are no hook currently to extract this information to produce accurate mappings.
16:15	dnolen	and I mean the generated line number of course, we know the original line / col easily.
16:19	tomoj	is that the major missing piece on source maps?
16:19	tomoj	that seems doable after a cursory look at cljs.closure
16:23	dnolen	tomoj: it's a major missing piece. the other piece - 1) merging in-memory CLJS compiler source map w/ GClosure source map and writing that out
16:24	dnolen	tomoj: I stalled a bit because I need the other piece before the merge can be done
16:25	dnolen	tomoj: the source-map branch already generates decent info for ever var occurrence (which means locals as well). soon as Clojure 1.5.0 goes out would like to move CLJS to use it and incorporate reader column information.
16:25	tomoj	get the feeling that will be soon
16:25	dnolen	yeah
16:25	tomoj	I think source maps could really help push coworkers over the line
16:26	dnolen	tomoj: it would help everyone :)
16:27	dnolen	not being able to sensibly debug / benchmark advanced compiled code in browsers is flying blind.
16:27	Raynes	It would fix global warming.
16:27	Cheiron	Hi, I would like to know how much memory a datastructure occupy during the runtime . is is possible?
16:28	nDuff	Cheiron: I've been able to figure that out using YourKit, though it's very much not free software (though there are zero-cost licenses available for OSS development).
16:29	Cheiron	possible with VisualVM ? I would like to have something that dump the size of a data structure during the runtime to the log
16:39	sritchie	alex_baranosky: hey dude
16:39	sritchie	you around?
16:39	alex_baranosky	AoE… talk after :)
16:42	sritchie	alex_baranosky: cool
16:45	alex_baranosky	sritchie: what's up?
16:45	sritchie	was just taking a look at clj-schema, good stuff
16:45	sritchie	I'm writing a thrift parser in clojure --
16:45	wingy	It says that (fn) is a special form .. looking at the source I see it's using (defmacro) .. so special forms can be macros?
16:45	sritchie	was going to ask if you thought it made sense to build the clojure AST for thrift as a clj-schema
16:46	sritchie	alex_baranosky: that'd be useful because we could go directly from a clj-schema (with some limitations) to thrift, without the whole idl parsing stage
16:46	sritchie	or clj-schema -> protobuf
16:47	alex_baranosky	sritchie: neat. Let's talk about that
16:47	sritchie	sounds good
16:47	alex_baranosky	not this second though, busy
16:47	sritchie	AoE, get 'er done
16:48	Raynes	alex_baranosky: You asked about stripping trailing slashes in Compojure last night.
16:48	Raynes	alex_baranosky: There is a piece of middleware in lib-noir for that.
16:48	alex_baranosky	rayes: yep. I stole it from there :), thanks for looking out for me though
16:49	Raynes	Ew.
16:49	Raynes	I wish people wouldn't 'steal' small pieces of middleware. Just depend on the darn library.
16:49	Raynes	You'd think Clojure was javascript or something!
16:50	dnolen	if anyone has some free cycle could someone confirm that println doesn't work w/ browser-repl anymore?
16:51	dnolen	cemerick: speaking of which, making sure we don't break browser-repl is a good candidate for browser automation ;)
16:51	S11001001	Raynes: "no dependencies" is a virtue for some reason
16:53	cemerick	dnolen: Quite. I've been building automated tests that run browser-side and are driven through a browser-repl. The bits under that could probably be factored out into something that could be used to verify browser-repl generally.
16:53	dnolen	cemerick: that would be awesome to get that into CLJS
16:54	cemerick	er, well, nREPL over piggieback and browser-repl, so perhaps that's not suitable
16:54	cemerick	s/over/with
16:55	dnolen	cemerick: honestly the most minimal thing would be sweet - I don't know selenium well enough to know to tackle this myself quickly. but our command line tests aren't enough, it's easy to break browser-repl and we don't test it at all.
16:55	cemerick	oh, I'm not using selenium
16:55	dnolen	cemerick: what do you use? phantomjs?
16:56	cemerick	goodness no; clojure.test assertions on values returned by evaluating expressions browser-side with nREPL
16:56	cemerick	All the JS-oriented testing libs/frameworks looked absolutely horrific.
16:57	emezeske	cemerick: All phantomjs is is a headless webkit browser
16:57	brehaut	“All the JS-oriented libs/frameworks looked absolutely horrific.” FTFY
16:57	tomoj	:D
16:58	dnolen	cemerick: so you wrote some scripts to launch the browser and all that?
16:58	emezeske	cemerick: E.g. phantomjs is nice for running browser-side tests without launching a big GUI, etc
16:59	cemerick	dnolen: well, the JVM can open a url in a browser.
17:00	cemerick	emezeske: Sure; I don't remember all the project names. At the moment, I don't mind closing the test browser tab that gets popped up when my tests finish.
17:01	emezeske	cemerick: Yeah, I wouldn't say phantomjs offers a huge advantage, developing on your workstation. It can be handy for running on CI servers and stuff, though.
17:01	cemerick	Sure. Someday soon.
17:03	cemerick	It's actually been quite handy to have the option to twiddle away at the js state halfway through a test suite sometimes.
17:03	emezeske	For sure -- when a test fails, you almost certainly want access to the JS console
17:03	cemerick	brehaut: good catch, goof on my part
17:04	cemerick	bugger the JS console, I want my REPL. :-)
17:04	emezeske	Well, phantomjs will run your REPL just fine!
17:04	emezeske	:)
17:05	cemerick	I like to see those DOM nodes a-twinkling
17:06	emezeske	The other features of modern browser dev tools are pretty un-live-withoutable too
17:06	tomoj	is there an easy way to get from "2.5" to 5/2 ?
17:06	cemerick	,(rationalize 2.5)
17:06	clojurebot	5/2
17:06	tomoj	eh, nvm, datomic doesn't have ratios (surprising)
17:06	tomoj	wow
17:07	tomoj	&(map (comp class rationalize) [5 5.0 5.5])
17:07	lazybot	⇒ (java.lang.Long clojure.lang.BigInt clojure.lang.Ratio)
17:09	tomoj	&(rationalize (/ 1.0 3))
17:09	lazybot	⇒ 3333333333333333/10000000000000000
17:10	tomoj	expected, but I guess (rationalize (Double. s)) should never do that?
17:28	Baldanders	So I'm trying to use Leiningen 2 with noir. Leiningen can't seem to find a couple of jars- the org.mortbay.jetty jars. I'm not that familiar with Maven or Leiningen, but I'm wondering if there is something else I should be doing.
17:35	jsabeaudry	Baldanders, can you pastebin your project.clj?
17:35	jsabeaudry	Baldanders, many people are using noir with lein2 so we know it can work
17:40	Cheiron	clojurebot: if you can make a God bleed, people will cease to believe in him
17:40	Cheiron	clojurebot: hello? in vacation?
17:41	emezeske	Hmm, Jesus bled, and people still believe the heck out of him
17:42	Baldanders	http://pastebin.com/XaKK0MBR
17:42	Raynes	emezeske: AFAIK he wasn't considered a God.
17:43	Baldanders	It's just what was create by running "lein new noir pman"
17:43	emezeske	Raynes: Depends on the flavor of Christianity.
17:44	Baldanders	Also, it often takes hours for lein to get things from the maven repos. I started getting noir last night, and wound up leaving it running overnight in the office... same thing happened this morning when trying to do lein run.
17:44	Baldanders	Can I just find the two jars it is looking for and put them in the cache directory?
17:44	emezeske	Baldanders: Looks like noir 1.3.0-beta10 is the latest
17:45	Baldanders	Yes- seems like 1.2.1 won't run with leiningen 2, or at least with older Clojures, because of a change in the way dynamic variables are handled.
17:45	Baldanders	Ah, I see...
17:46	Baldanders	OK, this is what leiningen created when doing lein new noir- should I edit it to use 1.3.0-beta10?
17:47	Baldanders	I tried that and it is currently trying to get a later version of jetty from the maven repos. Will probably take a while.
17:47	emezeske	Baldanders: I don't know if it will help, but given that it's a beta, you probably want the latest one (bugfixes, etc)
17:47	emezeske	Baldanders: Not a magic bullet, but a place to start.
17:49	Baldanders	OK, thanks. Since it seems to take hours to get jars from maven even when they are found, is there something else I can do? Like figure out the dependencies on my own and go looking for the jars myself, and put them in Leiningen's cache directory?
17:49	hiredman	http://www.infomercialcentral.com/store/files/images/d_77.jpg
17:49	hiredman	clojurebot: magic bullet is http://www.infomercialcentral.com/store/files/images/d_77.jpg
17:49	emezeske	Baldanders: For reference, "lein deps" on my machine, with a ton of deps, usually takes at most under a minute
17:49	hiredman	clojurebot: ping
17:50	emezeske	hiredman: :P
17:50	emezeske	Baldanders: Are you on a satellite link or something?
17:50	Baldanders	Aha. Well it has been taking hours every time leiningen has needed to get jars from the maven repos on my machine.
17:50	Baldanders	No, the connection is fast. But the amount of time I am seeing would be very, very slow even over a 14.4k modem.
17:51	emezeske	Baldanders: Unfortunately I don't know much about maven, etc. But I can say that what you're experiencing is not normal.
17:53	Baldanders	Thee is this issue on Leiningen: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/534
17:53	Baldanders	But it seems as if at the time it was resolved by adding mirror support.
17:54	emezeske	Huh..
17:56	wingy	i can tell now that JoY should _not_ be the first book of clojure :)
17:57	wingy	it's a great source when you know the basics from other books
17:57	emezeske	wingy: JoC*
17:57	wingy	yeah
17:57	emezeske	For the record, I thought it was an excellent first book of clojure
17:57	wingy	lol
17:57	emezeske	To each his own, though
17:58	wingy	emezeske: did you have lisp knowledge before that book?
17:58	emezeske	wingy: Not a bit.
17:58	thorbjornDX	I want to pmap a function that includes a 'spit to file', I'm going to hit an I/O cap pretty quickly, right?
17:59	emezeske	wingy: I had a tiny bit of haskell knowledge (basically just working through Learn you a Haskell for Great Good)
18:00	emezeske	thorbjornDX: map/pmap are not really meant for I/O operations
18:00	wingy	emezeske: i think i read this one as the first book .. someone here told me to drop it and read programming clojure programming instead
18:01	thorbjornDX	emezeske: understood. Am I better off doing the writes sequentially, or are they both going to be slow? The file output is the final thing I do in the code, so doing it in a pmap doesn't really affect me
18:02	emezeske	wingy: More reading can only help! :)
18:03	emezeske	thorbjornDX: Writing to disk is a fairly serial thing, particularly with rotating media you probably will hurt performance by doing a bunch of scattered writes in parallel
18:03	emezeske	thorbjornDX: I guess things may be different with flash, though
18:05	thorbjornDX	emezeske: gotcha, I'm pretty sure there's a few spinning platters somewhere down the layers
18:07	wingy	emezeske: agreed
18:07	emezeske	thorbjornDX: YMMV, of course -- I can only give general hints. The proof is in the profiling :)
18:10	jamii	Is this expected behaviour?
18:10	jamii	strucjure.test> (defrecord Foo [])
18:10	jamii	strucjure.test.Foo
18:10	jamii	strucjure.test> (class #strucjure.test.Foo{})
18:10	jamii	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
18:11	Bronsa	looks like a bug to me
18:11	Bronsa	user=> (defrecord a [])
18:11	Bronsa	user.a
18:11	Bronsa	user=> (a.)
18:11	Bronsa	#user.a{}
18:11	Bronsa	user=> #user.a{}
18:11	Bronsa	{}
18:17	devth	if i have a macro in one namesapce: (defmacro ensure-config [body] `(when (every? identity config) ~@body)) ;;; how do i ensure that config is eval'd in the namespace that the macro is used (not defined)?
18:28	emezeske	devth: What you want to do is called "unhygienic", and is generally frowned upon. However, you can probably make it happen with ~'config
18:28	devth	ah, i was trying #'*config
18:29	devth	yeah, familiar with hygienic macros, just experimenting
18:29	emezeske	Cool, I just felt like it needed a disclaimer :)
18:29	devth	i always forget the correct quote/unquote/splice usage
18:29	devth	cool. thanks.
18:29	emezeske	Experiment away!
18:35	unnali	devth: you can see why it happens like that here: http://clojure.org/reader (search for "Syntax-quote" in the body)
18:38	devth	unnali: makes sense. thanks.
18:41	Sgeo	"A shorthand version allows the metadata to be a simple symbol or keyword, in which case it is treated as a single entry map with a key of :tag and a value of the symbol provided, e.g.:"
18:41	Sgeo	I don't think that's accurate
18:41	Sgeo	,(meta ^:foo :bar)
18:41	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
18:41	Sgeo	,(meta ^:foo 'bar)
18:41	clojurebot	nil
18:41	Sgeo	hrm
18:42	unnali	,(meta ^:xyz {})
18:42	clojurebot	{:xyz true}
18:43	Sgeo	,(meta ^:abc ^:xyz {})
18:43	clojurebot	{:abc true, :xyz true}
18:43	unnali	,(meta ^String {})
18:43	clojurebot	{:tag java.lang.String}
18:44	Apage43	lei
18:44	Apage43	ack
18:44	Apage43	wrong window =P
18:46	tgoossens	clojure.core/destructure what is it fore exactly?
18:47	dnolen	tgoossens: not meant to be used directly really.
18:47	Raynes	It is used internally for destructuring.
18:47	tgoossens	ok
18:47	tgoossens	i was just wondering how internally let and loop did their bindings
18:48	dnolen	tgoossens: yes, they do use clojure.core/destructuring
18:48	tgoossens	what is a good way to do the following
18:48	tgoossens	i have a string
18:49	unnali	Sgeo: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L724
18:50	tgoossens	and i want to define a collection with "replacements" for characters. For example: a must be mapped on b, c must be mapped on d.
18:50	tgoossens	eventually this will happen with clojure.string/replace
18:50	Sgeo	,(meta ^'blah {})
18:50	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata must be Symbol,Keyword,String or Map>
18:50	Sgeo	,(meta ^blah {})
18:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: blah in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:50	tgoossens	now the one way mapping is not really the problem
18:50	Sgeo	Oh
18:50	Sgeo	,(meta ^"blah" {})
18:50	clojurebot	{:tag "blah"}
18:50	tgoossens	i want it to happen in both ways
18:50	unnali	,(let [x 'x] (meta ^x {}))
18:50	clojurebot	{:tag x}
18:51	tgoossens	so that i can do the reverse replacements
18:51	unnali	reader has trouble with ^'x
18:51	unnali	i guess because you're really saying ^(quote x), and it doesn't like that.
18:51	Sgeo	,(meta ^{:honk "honk"} ^{:honk "HONK"} {})
18:51	clojurebot	{:honk "honk"}
18:51	unnali	associativity!
18:53	tgoossens	i don't understand what you did
18:55	emezeske	tgoossens: ##(apply str (map {\a \b \b \c} "aaabbb"))
18:55	lazybot	⇒ "bbbccc"
18:55	emezeske	##(require 'clojure.set)
18:55	lazybot	⇒ nil
18:55	emezeske	tgoossens: ##(apply str (map (clojure.set/map-invert {\a \b \b \c}) "bbbccc"))
18:55	lazybot	⇒ "aaabbb"
18:55	tgoossens	wow
18:56	emezeske	tgoossens: Is that sort of what you're talking about?
18:56	tgoossens	i'm digesting what you typed one sec :D
18:57	tgoossens	i don't understand what happens here (why does it what it does?)
18:57	tgoossens	,(map {\a \b \b \c} "aaabbb")
18:57	clojurebot	(\b \b \b \c \c ...)
18:58	emezeske	tgoossens: A map is a function of it's keys
18:58	emezeske	tgoossens: ##({:foo "bar"} :foo)
18:58	lazybot	⇒ "bar"
18:59	tgoossens	yes correct
18:59	tgoossens	oooh
18:59	tgoossens	i get it :D
18:59	emezeske	:)
18:59	tgoossens	cool
18:59	emezeske	Of course you don't have to use a map, that was just my example
18:59	tgoossens	but i'm not quite sure that will do what i want
18:59	tgoossens	the problem is
19:00	tgoossens	i'm using (read-string
19:00	tgoossens	to read data like
19:00	tgoossens	"(grep (ls -la))" (more info here: http://tgoossens.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/funix-enhancing-the-linux-terminal-by-thinking-functional/)
19:01	tgoossens	(note that the code on my blogpost is already outdated, will update it tomorrow)
19:01	tgoossens	the problem is
19:01	tgoossens	sometimes i get a string like this:
19:01	tgoossens	(ls ~)
19:01	tgoossens	(ls Documents/)
19:01	tgoossens	and clojure doesn't accept those symbols
19:01	tgoossens	so i "encode" them
19:02	tgoossens	\" -> $quot
19:02	tgoossens	~ -> $tilde
19:02	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
19:02	tgoossens	which are valid symbols for the reader
19:02	unnali	clojurebot: wow.
19:02	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
19:02	tgoossens	and at the end
19:02	tgoossens	i decode
19:03	wingy	are (next) and (rest) the same except that the former returns nil and the latter '() when there are no more elements?
19:03	tgoossens	but currently the decode and encode functions must be specified apart
19:03	tgoossens	i want them to use a single collection/mapping which can be used in both ways
19:04	emezeske	I see
19:04	unnali	wingy: there's a difference in forcing the tail seq, I think.
19:05	emezeske	tgoossens: FWIW: ##(apply str (map #({\" "$quot" \~ "$tilde"} % %) "hello\"world~"))
19:05	lazybot	⇒ "hello$quotworld$tilde"
19:05	emezeske	tgoossens: But that won't work in reverse, because $quot and $tilde are not single characters
19:05	unnali	wingy: (let [x (next (cons 1 (lazy-seq (do (print "hi") '(5)))))] 'ok)
19:05	unnali	=> hiok
19:05	emezeske	tgoossens: You'd have to do something more fancy to reverse it.
19:05	unnali	(let [x (rest (cons 1 (lazy-seq (do (print "hi") '(5)))))] 'ok) => ok
19:05	tgoossens	:p
19:06	unnali	wingy: to be more precise, (rest (cons 1 (lazy-seq …))) returns a clojure.lang.LazySeq; (next …) forces the seq into a PersistentList (or whatever)
19:06	tgoossens	I have to go now (unfortunately). if you suddenly have a great idea on how to do it. Please post it as a comment so I can still read it :)
19:07	emezeske	tgoossens: Sure
19:07	emezeske	tgoossens: Good luck with it.
19:07	wingy	unnali: a bit too hard for me to get atm .. ill think about it
19:07	tgoossens	thanks! It's not that important project, but nevertheless a good exercise for myself. I really am starting to like clojure
19:07	unnali	wingy: the question is if you want to force the potentially lazy seq or not.
19:19	nonrecursive	hi all - I'm using cemerick's friend and trying to hash a password but it returns a different result every time
19:19	nonrecursive	if I do (cemerick.friend.credentials/hash-bcrypt "password") then I get a different string every time the function is called
19:19	nonrecursive	it seems like that just started happening… is that expected?
19:19	unnali	nonrecursive: I'd imagine so.
19:20	unnali	it'd be using a random salt each time.
19:20	unnali	nonrecursive: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/src/cemerick/friend/credentials.clj
19:21	unnali	it generates a salt, so it changes each time.
19:21	unnali	creds/bcrypt-credential-fn does a check, apparently used with cemerick.friend/authenticate.
19:21	unnali	so I guess there's some builtin mechanism to do authentication
19:22	Iceland_jack	> Besides incorporating a salt to protect against rainbow table attacks, bcrypt is an adaptive function: over time, the iteration count can be increased to make it slower, so it remains resistant to brute-force search attacks even with increasing computation power.
19:22	nonrecursive	unnali: thanks. it looks like for some reason the authentication is failing
19:22	unnali	nonrecursive: I suspect something else is afoul, then.
19:22	Iceland_jack	nonrecursive: you should read up a bit on bcrypt before using it, that was from the Wikipedia page
19:23	nonrecursive	Iceland_jack: cool. I really don't know anything about these hashing algorithms
19:23	nonrecursive	Iceland_jack: very good suggestion :)
19:23	nonrecursive	unnali: thanks for the help
19:23	Sgeo	Does helping out in #clojure count as résumé-able?
19:23	Iceland_jack	Cryptography is notoriously tricky to get right
19:24	unnali	Sgeo: I'd say sure.
19:24	Sgeo	##1 ##2 ##3 just want to see if bot does these in order
19:25	brehaut	##(identity 1) ##(identity 2) ##(identity 3)
19:25	lazybot	(identity 1) ⇒ 1
19:25	lazybot	(identity 3) ⇒ 3
19:25	xeqi	nonrecursive: are you using bcrypt-credential-fn as part of :credential-fn ?
19:25	unnali	"sometimes, if at all"
19:25	brehaut	i think the paren is part of the syntax
19:25	nonrecursive	xeqi: I am
19:26	Sgeo	What happened to 2?
19:26	brehaut	Raynes: your bot is weird
19:26	brehaut	if i were to guess, i would blame regexps
19:27	xeqi	is your user finding part in it returning a map with {:username .. :password .. } ?
19:27	Sgeo	Still better to actually use identity of course, clearer etc.
19:27	brehaut	in this case do wins
19:28	brehaut	but do is a macro / special form
19:28	brehaut	you cant pass it to something
19:28	nonrecursive	xeqi: yep it is
19:28	amalloy	brehaut: good guess
19:28	Sgeo	brehaut, but #(do %) is lambda syntax, so that form is a function, which you can pass to things
19:28	Sgeo	,(map #(do %) [1 2 3])
19:28	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
19:28	nonrecursive	I wonder if the salt is changed every time the server is restarted?
19:29	brehaut	ah sorry , i misread
19:29	seancorfield	having a weird problem with lein-expectations - it seems to be running all the expectations twice (in concurrent threads) - not sure what recent library change has caused this... :(
19:29	Sgeo	Erm, inaccurate to say that the form is a function, I guess, but it evaluates to a function
19:30	unnali	nonrecursive: it's a new salt on every execution!
19:30	nonrecursive	unnali: ah right, right
19:31	nonrecursive	unnali: heh yeah I realized that as soon as I wrote that :P
19:31	unnali	:D
19:31	nonrecursive	the password checking works in a repl so something else must be the problem
19:32	yehohanan7	Hello, I am a new to clojure, I am trying to learn clojure by writing a clojure wrapper for mongodb java driver. here is the code -https://github.com/yehohanan7/tikvah/blob/master/src/com/tikvah/info/mongo/core.clj can anyone have a quick look at it and let me know if its idiomatic?
19:32	xeqi	nonrecursive: are you including session middleware?
19:32	nonrecursive	xeqi: I am - this was working earlier in fact
19:33	nonrecursive	oh man
19:33	nonrecursive	I think I will need to slap my head
19:33	nonrecursive	d'oh
19:34	nonrecursive	I changed the :login-uri so authentication wasn't even being attempted
19:34	nonrecursive	thanks xeqi unnali and Iceland_jack!
19:36	yehohanan7	Basically my query would look like : (-> (store "dbname") (collection :products) (scan :having [[:_id :eq "12345"]]))
19:36	nonrecursive	sorry for your trouble!
19:42	dnolen	ohpauleez: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-359, I think you're simple patch is OK
19:43	ohpauleez	dnolen: ok, excellent - glad to see that fix getting through
19:43	dnolen	ohpauleez: metadata on top level defs are always stored in cljs.analyzer/namespaces - your patch would address runtime metadat
19:43	dnolen	ohpauleez: we can't optimize that case really since we won't have that information at runtime.
19:45	ohpauleez	dnolen: I can make a formal patch out of it for you
19:45	dnolen	ohpauleez: excellent
19:49	ohpauleez	dnolen: I also have some core.logic cljs patches for you in the pipeline
19:49	dnolen	ohpauleez: SWEET
19:50	ohpauleez	core.logic on node.js for scripting apps has been both amazing and a struggle :)
19:51	gfredericks	how much code-sharing is there between core.logic on jvm vs js?
19:56	dnolen	this should knock down CLJS compile sizes a bit http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/97e5fbd1e1597d58be35fd8320c8044ccc9d3a3d :) thanks to bendlas``
19:57	dnolen	gfredericks: none
19:57	dnolen	gfredericks: would love to fix that - esp now that core.logic is significantly larger than it was
19:57	dnolen	gfredericks: feature expression can't come soon enough in my opinion
19:58	dnolen	ohpauleez: whoa :) COOL
19:58	emezeske	bendlas``, dnolen: grazie!
20:07	SegFaultAX	What are some good Clojure message queues?
20:10	technomancy	SegFaultAX: rabbitmq, hornetmq, redis
20:10	technomancy	redis if you want simplest, hornet if you want the option to run it inside the jvm, rabbit if you want all kinds of crazy knobs
20:10	SegFaultAX	technomancy: I'm thinking of a specific one. It was actually a job queue. The jobs were just clojure forms.
20:11	metellus	agents?
20:11	SegFaultAX	Basically Resque for clojure.
20:11	technomancy	die roboter is built on top of rabbit
20:11	dnolen	ohpauleez: so what's pushing you to leverage Node.js in this case?
20:11	SegFaultAX	technomancy: That's the one.
20:12	ohpauleez	dnolen: I'm trying to build up ClojureScript's scripting story
20:12	ohpauleez	I have a git-backed text-based ticket tracker - only requirement is node, written in CLJS
20:13	ohpauleez	and supports a datalog-like search query
20:13	dnolen	ohpauleez: nice, so just trying to see what does and doesn't work from Node.js point of view?
20:13	ohpauleez	using githooks, all your ticket operations are automated - everything happens in-band
20:13	dnolen	ohpauleez: sounds cool
20:14	ohpauleez	dnolen: Exactly - just want to get it to a place that I can confidently pick it up and write a quick scripted app
20:15	ohpauleez	I'm also trying to unify core.contracts, test.generative and Alloy - but we'll see how far I get ;)
20:15	ohpauleez	(alloy is - http://alloy.mit.edu/alloy/index.html)
20:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: I encountered Alloy a while back - seems interesting though I never dug enough to really understand what it was about.
20:17	SegFaultAX	Regarding nginx -> tomcat, why does this example use a location for different filetypes instead of just routing all requests via `location /`?
20:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: I recall some folks mentioning KodKod on the Clojure ML 2-3 years ago?
20:17	SegFaultAX	http://serverfault.com/questions/293348/configure-nginx-for-jboss-tomcat
20:18	ohpauleez	Eiffel uses its contracts to perform "auto test" - I want to use the specs to drive test.generative automatically. I want to then enhance the contracts to support more relational assertions, and make use of Alloy to say, "No, there's a flaw or hole in the collections of 'specs' "
20:19	ohpauleez	So if you use core.contracts you get test.generative for free; You get system/spec checking for free
20:19	ohpauleez	dnolen: Ah, thanks for the hint, I'll go digging around for it
20:19	tomoj	whoa, I hadn't heard of core.contracts
20:20	dnolen	ohpauleez: interesting seems related to some of the abstract interpretation of contracts work that people are working oe?
20:20	dnolen	on
20:20	ohpauleez	definitely
20:21	tomoj	wonder why not "with-contracts"
20:22	gfredericks	tomoj: it has some sort of (apply-contracts! ...) function?
20:22	tomoj	I mean why "with-constraints"
20:22	gfredericks	oh nm
20:23	gfredericks	yeah that's pretty weird
20:24	tomoj	it makes me think contracts are a subset of constraints
20:24	tomoj	which may be true?
20:24	dnolen	ohpauleez: AutoTest literature looks pretty interesting
20:25	ohpauleez	dnolen: For sure, I've been spending a couple of weeks now with Alloy, DynAlloy, Behavioral Programming, and Eiffel literature - AutoTest is a cool piece I'd love to steal ideas from
20:26	Sgeo	Oh cool there's a contracts system for Clojure?
20:26	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Clojure functions be default support pre and post conditions
20:26	dnolen	ohpauleez: CiaoProlog literature is pretty relevant - perhaps not the Prolog aspect, but how much power they get of abstract interpretation of assertions
20:26	ohpauleez	but Fogus' Trammel contracts system, moved to core.contracts a little while ago (and merged in some updates from a smaller contracts lib)
20:27	Sgeo	,((fn [] {:pre false} 5) nil)
20:27	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval27$fn>
20:27	ohpauleez	dnolen: Thanks for the tip, I'm looking now
20:27	Sgeo	,((fn [] {:pre false} 5))
20:27	clojurebot	5
20:27	Sgeo	:(
20:27	Sgeo	,((fn [] {:pre false :post false} 5))
20:27	clojurebot	5
20:27	Sgeo	:(
20:28	dnolen	ohpauleez: there's a lot to wade through, lemme see if I can find the interesting slide set
20:30	dnolen	ohpauleez: http://clip.dia.fi.upm.es/papers/RuleML11_slides.pdf, the dynamic vs. static slides are relevant
20:30	ohpauleez	Sgeo:
20:30	ohpauleez	,((fn [] {:pre [false]} 5))
20:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: false>
20:30	Sgeo	aha
20:30	ohpauleez	dnolen: Awesome! thanks!
20:31	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Needs to be a vector of assertions
20:32	dnolen	ohpauleez: yeah cool stuff, rich assertion language - assertion based verification & automatic testing
20:32	dnolen	ohpauleez: the kind of thing that I would love to have in Clojure
20:33	ohpauleez	that's exactly what I'm going for
20:33	ohpauleez	me too
20:34	ohpauleez	I would love to bundle my assertions into contracts, and then just say, "go" - getting test.generative and an Alloy verification for free (or some form of verification)
20:34	ohpauleez	And it certainly seems possible, but I'm still surveying the literature
20:35	Sgeo	Oh great, now I have a new programming language to be interested in
20:37	Sgeo	Then again, having a community is important to me..
20:40	doomlord	join #lisp
20:42	Sgeo	doomlord, uh... oh, you intended to /join #lisp I guess?
20:42	gfredericks	I read it that he was recommending the #lisp community
20:42	Sgeo	gfredericks, me too at first
20:42	doomlord	hah both
20:43	doomlord	clojure is my favourite lisp so far
20:43	doomlord	i just tried writing some schme (gimp plugins) and sorely missed [..]
20:44	Sgeo	Ciao doesn't look like a lisp
20:44	Sgeo	It looks like a variant on Prolog, I think
20:44	doomlord	i can head over to #lisp to troll them about how good { } and [ ] are
20:44	Sgeo	heh
20:44	doomlord	the reaction is quite severe:)
20:44	Sgeo	"This produces an executable called hello in Un*x-like systems and hello.cpx under Win32 systems."
20:44	Sgeo	...I .... wat.
20:45	doomlord	i was just trying to write some gimp plugins.. i think the world needs an embedded superset of scheme with [] and {} and clojures' other sugars
20:45	doomlord	to drop into that project
20:46	Sgeo	How about Scheme with Clojure data structures and functions?
20:46	Sgeo	Nice functional-style programming
20:46	Sgeo	I think I can live without the sugar, but nice functions are nice
20:46	doomlord	functional programming for image manipulation , it would suit gimp
20:47	dnolen	Sgeo: Ciao is not a Lisp. It's kind of a PL laboratory created by some Prolog people.
20:47	doomlord	i find clojures' fun-callable objects and [],{} and destructuring make it a lot more tolerable than other lisps
20:48	Sgeo	dnolen, how usable is it for .. real world stuff
20:48	dnolen	Sgeo: what does "real world" stuff mean? web apps?
20:48	Sgeo	dnolen, hmm, I guess. Also RIC bots
20:48	Sgeo	IRC
20:49	SrPx	Is clojurescript compiled to readable js? Like coffeescript?
20:49	dnolen	SrPx: no
20:49	SrPx	dnolen: thanks. It is interpreted?
20:49	dnolen	SrPx: no
20:50	SrPx	dnolen: hmm how then? Is it fast?
20:50	dnolen	Sgeo: it's an academic project so I'm sure you'll run into more issues than a more mainstream language for that kind of thing. But I don't really think that's the point anyhow.
20:50	dnolen	SrPx: it provides facilities to achieve the performance of the host yes.
20:50	emezeske	SrPx: It's compiled to JS, but the readability of that JS is not optimized for
20:51	SrPx	dnolen: I see, so it's better not to trust in clojurescript for production yet?
20:51	dnolen	SrPx: if you compare a computationally intensive JS code w/ idiomatic ClojureScript code - ClojureScript will be considerably slower. But if you're touching the DOM - doesn't matter much. That's slow anyhow.
20:52	emezeske	SrPx: I run a production website built in ClojureScript, FWIW
20:52	dnolen	SrPx: plenty of people using it production. But yes it still has lots of rough edges. But everday we get more and more patches from more and more people.
20:53	SrPx	I see. Is it much different from Clojure? Can I build up a personal library of utilities that will work in both the browser/clojurescript and on clojure itself? At the same time
20:53	dnolen	SrPx: people have various hacks / workaround for that. I'm hopeful for a move on Feature Expressions (Clojure 1.6?)
20:54	SrPx	Feature Expressions?
20:54	dnolen	SrPx: conditional compilation based on whether you're targeting CLJS or CLJ
20:55	dnolen	SrPx: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Feature+Expressions
20:56	SrPx	Hmm I'm not sure I like that. Is not it simpler just to implement every function working the same way on both sides?
20:56	dnolen	SrPx: most functions will be the same yes
20:57	dnolen	SrPx: you don't need Feature Expressions for that
20:57	Sgeo	dnolen, I was recently interested in Prolog, so this might interest me
20:57	SrPx	dnolen: where exactly does the code have to change, then?
20:58	emezeske	SrPx: For instance, the (ns) form supports different features between CLJ and CLJS
20:58	dnolen	SrPx: it just depends, host-y interop, macros - difference in namespace format
20:59	dnolen	SrPx: the point of Feature Expressions to account for the minor annoying differences.
20:59	dnolen	is to account
21:01	wingy	why isn't this true
21:01	wingy	,(every? #(= % " ") " ")
21:01	clojurebot	false
21:01	pandeiro	there is no html->hiccup tool is there?
21:01	dnolen	,(seq " ")
21:01	clojurebot	(\space)
21:01	dnolen	,(every? #(= % \space) " ")
21:01	clojurebot	true
21:02	dnolen	,(seq " a ")
21:02	clojurebot	(\space \a \space)
21:02	wingy	was an error on a presentation then
21:02	wingy	thx
21:02	unnali	wingy: not really; " " is a sequence consisting of one space, \space is just the space
21:03	unnali	wingy: it's like asking if every element of the list [3] is the list [3]; not quite
21:03	dnolen	wingy: that's actually true in CLJS since there's no real Character type there.
21:04	wingy	got it
21:04	dnolen	SrPx: annoying differences like what I just said
21:05	wingy	unnali: i meant there was a slideshare presentation that used my original one
21:05	unnali	wingy: oh! I see. mea culpa; misunderstood "presentation"
21:06	Sgeo	dnolen, the Ciao docs are only going to go over stuff in Ciao and not Prolog, I assume?
21:06	SrPx	dnolen: hmm
21:06	dnolen	gotta run
21:15	hyPiRion	Heh.
21:15	hyPiRion	,(= \ \space)
21:15	clojurebot	true
21:17	jcromartie	is there any way to recover from (read-line) in SLIME?
21:18	jcromartie	oh I see
21:18	jcromartie	swank.core/with-read-line-support
21:19	ivan	http://www.advogato.org/article/1067.html RedHat is doing an ARM64 OpenJDK port
21:21	Sgeo	,\0
21:21	clojurebot	\0
21:21	Sgeo	,\)
21:21	clojurebot	\)
21:22	Urthwhyte	pandeiro: I believe I saw one over on r/clojure last weekend, but I may be misremembering
21:24	amalloy	pandeiro, Urthwhyte: the H2H library that was on /r/clojure is the worst project i've ever seen. strongly recommend not using it
21:24	Urthwhyte	pandeiro: https://github.com/runexec/H2H
21:25	Urthwhyte	amalloy: I wouldn't touch it, just mentioning it's out there
21:25	amalloy	also, hiccup forms aren't actually easy to work with except for emitting html directly. parsing html to hiccup won't make you happy
21:25	Urthwhyte	It didn't seem very robust. Too close to the code I understand ;)
21:26	Urthwhyte	I don't really understand the appeal of it for exactly that reason
21:26	jcromartie	is there a way to read a single character from stdin in the REPL?
21:26	jcromartie	in "lein repl"
21:29	jcromartie	java -jar $(lein classpath) clojure.main
21:29	jcromartie	yay
21:29	jcromartie	no BS
21:30	Girls_Escort	Porn SEx Girls http://fredfilms.blogspot.com
21:30	jcromartie	not that I don't appreciate the stuff lein does for the REPL
21:30	jcromartie	but lein repl tends to make for some odd behavior around stdin/stdout
21:31	jcromartie	s/-jar/-cp/
21:34	amalloy	jcromartie: lein trampoline repl
21:37	jcromartie	amalloy: thanks
21:45	TimMc	hyPiRion: All the long-name characters: ##(filter #(< 2 (->> % pr-str count)) (map char (range 0 256)))
21:45	lazybot	⇒ (\backspace \tab \newline \formfeed \return \space)
21:48	gfredericks	,(->> 256 range (map char) (filter #(->> % pr-str count (< 2)))) ;; all threading all the time
21:48	clojurebot	(\backspace \tab \newline \formfeed \return ...)
21:51	gfredericks	&(map char (range 8))
21:51	lazybot	⇒ (\
21:51	gfredericks	ha
21:52	gfredericks	,(map char (range 8))
21:52	clojurebot	(\
21:52	gfredericks	fascinating; my repl prints (\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \)
21:54	hyPiRion	TimMc: heh, fascinating.
22:03	amalloy	gfredericks: when something funky display-wise comes up like that, i'm always tempted to say "gosh, what do you mean, what you just pasted looks the same as what clojurebot said a minute ago on MY terminal"
22:06	gfredericks	hunter2
22:11	jcromartie	:)
22:11	Urthwhyte	ls
22:11	lazybot	bin boot data lib lost+found media proc sbin selinux src sys tmp
22:12	TimMc	haha
22:12	Urthwhyte	hah
22:12	Urthwhyte	I think that's a bug ;)
22:12	amalloy	feature!
22:13	amalloy	lazybot likes to make fun of you for thinking #clojure is your repl
22:13	amalloy	er, your shell
22:14	Urthwhyte	I seem to be making a habit of gaffs like that today in #clojure
22:14	xeqi	pwd
22:14	lazybot	#clojure
22:14	gfredericks	sudo su
22:14	gfredericks	hostname
22:14	unnali	gfredericks: `sudo su' considered broken; consider `sudo -i' or `sudo -s'
22:15	unnali	considered harmful*, damnit. i can't even troll properly.
22:15	jcromartie	lazy-seq is guaranteed to only evaluate the body once when it is needed, right?
22:15	jcromartie	not ahead of time
22:15	gfredericks	yeps
22:15	jcromartie	and not more than once
22:15	unnali	jcromartie: correct?
22:15	gfredericks	jcromartie: probably almost certainly
22:15	jcromartie	:)
22:16	jcromartie	combining blocking I/O with lazy-seq
22:16	gfredericks	I don't think that's too radical
22:18	Urthwhyte	oh, I had a laziness question - is slurp?
22:18	gfredericks	slurp returns a string
22:18	Urthwhyte	I assume it's a wrapper around reader and the answer is no
22:18	gfredericks	strings can't be lazy
22:19	Urthwhyte	ah, that would make sense
22:19	gfredericks	~haskell
22:19	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
22:20	Urthwhyte	Also makes me realise a few other misconceptions, on further reflection
22:20	Urthwhyte	(inc reasons-to-love-irc)
22:20	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:21	gfredericks	~haskell
22:21	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
22:21	gfredericks	:(
22:21	gfredericks	clojurebot: you need more variety
22:21	clojurebot	Excuse me?
22:21	Urthwhyte	clojurebot: He said you need more variety
22:21	clojurebot	No entiendo
22:22	gfredericks	~botsmack
22:22	clojurebot	botsmack is headdesk
22:27	amalloy	~monads
22:27	clojurebot	monads are http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
22:27	amalloy	aw, i was hoping for a shrimp- or endoburrito-themed joke
22:27	shachaf	monads moproblems
22:30	technomancy	jcromartie: latest lein master should fix most issues around stdin
22:56	TimMc	clojurebot is the destroyer of hope
22:57	gfredericks	TimMc: don't tell him that
23:07	jcromartie	I'm trying to figure out how to separate a state machine output on transition from actual i/o
23:08	jcromartie	it's not really a FSM
23:08	jcromartie	but FSM+metadata, I guess not really finite then
23:08	vilonis	clojurebot destoys hope?
23:14	Sgeo	Hmm.
23:14	Sgeo	Work on some bindings to a Java library in Clojure that in all liklihood, I will be the only use of?
23:14	Sgeo	Or work on code for my Senior Project?
23:16	jcromartie	Sgeo: I have a hard time doing anything but writing Clojure :\|
23:16	jcromartie	even when it's completely pointless
23:16	jcromartie	maybe it's a sign
23:16	jcromartie	I need to do "real work" in Clojure now
23:16	jcromartie	or else I'll never get anything done again