#clojure – 2012-10-24

2012-10-24

00:51	Sgeo	I should attempt to wrap my mind around derive
00:51	Sgeo	Is it something like inheritance, kind of sort of?
00:52	Sgeo	Except I get the impression that everyone shies away from multimethods for "performance" reasons :(
00:52	doomlord	is there an existing c-embeddedable (subset-of-?)clojure, perhaps forked from a scheme or ecl
00:56	Raynes	Sgeo: I don't think that is true.
00:56	Raynes	Sgeo: If people shy away from multimethods, it's because protocols are a better fit. Protocols may be faster, but they also serve a completely different purpose.
00:56	technomancy	multimethods are the best*
00:57	technomancy	* - for polymorphism, which you really never need
01:01	technomancy	Sgeo: there are some locking issues with multimethods that have been fixed in 1.5, but most people who say "multimethods are too slow" haven't even measured the difference and just use protocols because whoa shiny
01:07	Raynes	technomancy: You so do need polymorphism. Go look at the giant case switch in the node IRC library that makes up 98% of the whole library and then go look at my multimethod implementation of the same thing in Irclj. I'm shell shocked in languages that don't have multimethods now.
01:11	perezd	I need to make a clojure regex for a values like foo.bar.8000.status, foo.bar.9001.status
01:11	perezd	that select anything foo.bar.*.status
01:12	perezd	not sure whats right here..
01:12	perezd	#"foo\.bar\.\{1.4}\.status"
01:12	perezd	is what I tried
01:15	Sgeo	Someone in #lisp complained that on http://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html the "Closure and counters in loops"
01:15	Sgeo	section
01:15	Sgeo	The issue of whether or not looping constructs make a new binding or modify the old one is orthogonal to the issues of lexical scope and closures.
01:17	unnali	perezd: {1,4} instead?
01:17	perezd	I actually had tha ti Think
01:18	perezd	just kidding
01:18	perezd	I didnt
01:21	amalloy	Sgeo: i think that's a fair criticism of the himera page
01:21	Sgeo	amalloy, yeah, once I understood what they were getting at
01:22	perezd	#"frontend\.http\.\d{1,4}\.status"
01:22	perezd	this is still wrong
01:25	unnali	perezd: can you give an example of how you're testing it?
01:26	perezd	one sec
01:26	unnali	'cause it works for me
01:26	unnali	,(re-find #"frontend\.http\.\d{1,4}\.status" "frontend.http.1234.status")
01:26	clojurebot	"frontend.http.1234.status"
01:26	perezd	werid..
01:27	Sgeo	,(class #'resolve)
01:27	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
01:27	Sgeo	Hmm, so when symbols are evaluated, they don't just evaluate to their var, they evaluate to what their var points to?
01:30	unnali	Sgeo: I'm not 100% sure at what stage it happens, but approximately, yes.
01:30	unnali	if there isn't a lexical or something bound closer.
01:42	Sgeo	Is loop/recur lexical or dynamic
01:45	unnali	I'm not sure I understand your meaning correctly; functions introduce recur-targets, so there's no way that it would behave in a way that wouldn't be "lexical" or "dynamic", in a sense
01:46	Sgeo	I can't recur from outside tail-call position
01:46	Sgeo	Oh, I didn't mention that I wanted to fake CL's block/return-from
01:46	Sgeo	Scrap the loop/recur question
01:46	unnali	aha.
01:47	unnali	not sure you'll manage that..
02:17	Sgeo	Is macroexpand-all broken?
02:17	Sgeo	http://ideone.com/Eoyc6K
02:26	Bike	Sorry, sgeo. I don't actually know clojure, after all
02:27	ForSpareParts	If I want a Java method to receive a Clojure function as an argument, what class/interface should I specify? I see a ton of things that have some relation to Fn.
02:27	Sgeo	Bike, you may end up learning
02:27	ForSpareParts	AFn/IFn/Fn, etc.
02:27	Bike	Possibly.
02:27	Bike	Anyway, it seems as though the values of &env aren't intended for public use.
02:28	Sgeo	Yeah, pretty much
02:28	Sgeo	Oh, I finally remembered the name of a library I wanted to mention
02:29	Sgeo	serializable-fns uses &env, presumably to help capture closures.
02:30	Bike	Could I get a link?
02:31	Sgeo	https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
02:31	Bike	Thanks.
02:31	amalloy	Sgeo: yes, macroexpand-all is broken by design
02:32	Bike	?
02:33	Sgeo	amalloy, o.O :( how so? I mean, it looks like it's trying to map macroexpand onto each macro, which won't preserve lexical environment
02:33	Sgeo	Do you mean deliberately broken, or as in it makes no sense?
02:34	amalloy	meh. a question of degree. macroexpand-all is an attempt to use simple, crude tools to somehow achieve the subtlety of a compiler
02:34	amalloy	clojure.tools.macro/mexpand-all is much better, although probably not perfect
02:34	Sgeo	IdeOne isn't likely to have clojure.tools.macro, is it?
02:35	amalloy	does ideone have any compelling features?
02:35	Sgeo	It's on the web, meaning that I can be lazy and not need to open emacs or any Clojure implementation on my computer
02:36	Sgeo	Nice for quick demonstrations
02:36	Bike	So, mexpand-all does what? Code walker?
02:36	amalloy	what i mean is, whether something will work in ideone has never entered my consideration at all
02:38	amalloy	so i dunno if it has tools.macro
02:38	Sgeo	Bike, pretty much, I think
02:39	Sgeo	Yes
02:41	Bike	If I'm reading this right, macroexpand-all just walks code dumbly as a tree? How does that ever work?
02:43	Sgeo	,(do (require 'clojure.walk) (clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(quote (let [a 1] a))))
02:43	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
02:44	Sgeo	,(do (require 'clojure.walk :as 'walk) (walk/macroexpand-all '(quote (let [a 1] a))))
02:44	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
02:44	Sgeo	,(do (require ['clojure.walk :as 'walk]) (walk/macroexpand-all '(quote (let [a 1] a))))
02:44	clojurebot	(quote (let* [a 1] a))
02:44	Sgeo	It clearly doesn't.
02:44	Bike	Wow.
02:45	Sgeo	,(quote (let [a 1] a))
02:45	clojurebot	(let [a 1] a)
02:45	Bike	I mean, does anybody actually try to use this, or... am I missing something
02:45	Sgeo	Would be nice if clojuredoc.org supported comments
02:45	Sgeo	Would be adding a comment to the effect of DON'T EVER USE THIS right now
02:46	Sgeo	Oh, hmm, it might
02:50	perezd	so , a regex that can match "frontend.http.8002.status" and "frontend.http.8001.status"
02:50	perezd	where the 8001/8002 is anything
02:50	perezd	any advice? banging my head against the wall..
02:50	perezd	seems super basic
02:50	perezd	but its late and I'm fucking somethin gup
02:50	perezd	any number that is
02:51	perezd	basically want frontend.http.*.status
02:51	Bike	frontend\.http\.\\d*\.status, probably?
02:51	perezd	trying..
02:52	perezd	nope :(
02:52	Sgeo	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.walk/macroexpand-all
02:52	Sgeo	Hmm, perhaps a bit alarmist?
02:53	Bike	the !!! are a bit much, perhaps
02:54	perezd	Bike any other advice?
02:54	Sgeo	Removed
02:54	Sgeo	By "anything" do you mean a number?
02:54	Bike	perezd: try taking out one of the backslashes before the d, I always mess those up
02:54	perezd	yes
02:55	perezd	any 4 digit number
02:55	Sgeo	perezd, also, are you using the #" reader macro (probably not correct name, but that helps clue Bike in)
02:55	Bike	frontend\dhttp\.\d{4}\.status ?
02:56	perezd	yes using #" "
02:56	Bike	er. frontend\.http\.\d{4}\.status
02:56	Bike	Sgeo: that reminds me, I was going to ask if there was something like reader macros in clojure, because then you could make your own backslash to make porting from cl a bit easier.
02:57	AimHere	There's no actual reader macros
02:57	Sgeo	make my own backslash?
02:57	Sgeo	But ... it has something almost but not quite like reader macros, at least recently
02:57	Bike	A reader to more closely match CL's semantics, to save you some time, I mean.
02:57	AimHere	The newest clojure had an extensible reader syntax or something
02:57	perezd	Bike: still not workin :(
02:58	Sgeo	Bike, the details of what AimHere said will annoy you: It expects the code for it to be in one particular file
02:58	Sgeo	relative to the project's root
02:58	Bike	Weird.
02:58	Sgeo	That sort of thing is what annoys me about Clojure the most
02:59	Sgeo	If you want to add a library to your project, you tend to need to restart the REPL, although there's a library that works around that
02:59	Sgeo	The Clojure ecosystem is rather project oriented
03:01	Bike	ok, if I'm reading java docs right, perezd, it really ought to just be #"frontend\.http\.\\d{4}\.status". If it's not that it's something very much like that. "frontend.http." literal, then exactly four digits, then ".status" literal.
03:02	perezd	I read that too…trying again
03:02	perezd	fuckin doesn't work! ahasdhfjasjkdfh
03:02	Sgeo	Maybe it's the surrounding code that's wrong, rather than the regex itself?
03:02	Sgeo	,(doc re-match)
03:02	perezd	its possible...
03:02	clojurebot	I don't understand.
03:03	perezd	Bike: http://aphyr.github.com/riemann/configuring.html
03:03	perezd	look at what they do for regex
03:03	perezd	thats what I am doing basically
03:04	Sgeo	Bike, um, that double \\
03:05	Sgeo	,(re-matches #"frontend\.http\.\\d{4}\.status" "frontend.http.8001.status")
03:05	clojurebot	nil
03:05	Sgeo	,(re-matches #"frontend\.http\.\d{4}\.status" "frontend.http.8001.status")
03:05	clojurebot	"frontend.http.8001.status"
03:05	Bike	really starting to think using backslashes as both the escape character and the "regex class starts now" character was a mistake
03:05	perezd	I wish I knew why this didn't work
03:05	perezd	maybe its a bug
03:05	Bike	I already suggested "frontend\.http\.\d{4}\.status" and perezd said it didn't work.
03:06	Sgeo	perezd, maybe you could paste a snippit of your code?
03:06	perezd	https://gist.github.com/1420f4e7495e6f4fa171
03:06	perezd	using riemann config API
03:07	perezd	service should accept a regex
03:07	perezd	according to: http://aphyr.github.com/riemann/configuring.html
03:08	Sgeo	where is definitely a function?
03:08	perezd	yes
03:09	perezd	its working for non-regexes
03:10	Sgeo	Where is service defined?
03:10	perezd	I think where is some sort of macro
03:10	perezd	that makes service become accessible
03:11	Bike	According do the documentation, «Replaces (metric x y z) with a test matching
03:11	Bike	(:metric event) to any of x, y, or z, either by = or re-find.»
03:11	Bike	er, and does the same with service instead of metric.
03:11	Bike	So it just matches it to the value of the event under the :server key. I think.
03:11	perezd	found where in riemann.streams
03:12	amalloy	the regex already given is exactly correct, so any issues you're having are with this weirdo service api, not with regexes
03:12	perezd	right but (streams (where (service #"^eth0.*") (by :host (rate 1 graph)))) works
03:12	Bike	Perhaps the name of the service isn't what you think it is?
03:13	perezd	considered that, but I've double checked…using the exact name works
03:13	Sgeo	perezd, as a string, or as the regex? If not the latter, try it as the latter, escaping .
03:14	Sgeo	(And try without escaping dot, it should match the service too, although it will match more)
03:18	Sgeo	So, in an attempt to show something cool
03:18	Sgeo	,(for [a (range 3) b (range 2) :when (> (+ a b) 1)] {:a a :b b})
03:18	clojurebot	({:a 1, :b 1} {:a 2, :b 0} {:a 2, :b 1})
03:20	Bike	nondeterministic programming, huh.
03:20	Bike	I didn't realize I was being sold to, though.
03:21	doomlord	i'm a leyman when it comes to lisp,but i'm generally finding clojure elegant
03:22	Sgeo	doomlord, I think Common Lisp's environment is generally nicer than Clojure, although as a whole it's less elegent
03:23	doomlord	is that comment on the toolchain vs clojures' hacks into the jvm :)
03:23	doomlord	a standalone clojure would be awesome. but then again the name wouldn't make sense
03:24	Bike	I'm sure a sufficiently determined programmer would be able to come up with a suitably ridiculous backronym.
03:24	doomlord	the idea that cloujre is a "modern" lisp seems to make sense - there's lots of little choices in the standard macros that are helpful.
03:25	Sgeo	doomlord, it's nice not needing to make a new leiningen project and edit project.clj just to try some library
03:25	Sgeo	Although I guess one-off might help with that?
03:25	Bike	Little choices like what?
03:26	Sgeo	Clojure has a major focus on immutability, which I like, although I suspect doomlord isn't referring to that
03:26	doomlord	let [ var0 expr0 var1 expr1 ...] versus let* (() () ()..)
03:26	doomlord	it could be i'm getting the "elegance" idea from the FP aswell, so perhaps thats unfair (fp comes with overhead)
03:26	doomlord	(ie. losing mutability optimizations)
03:27	Bike	Sgeo: clojure has something like labels, I imagine, in which case you can bootstrap letrec
03:27	doomlord	i like funcallable objects too
03:27	Bike	[] is a vector, right? clojure's use of them does seem interesting.
03:28	Sgeo	doomlord, I think with closer-to-mop on CL you can do that on any CL that supports MOPish stuff, but it's ugly
03:28	Sgeo	Bike, yes
03:28	doomlord	and the threading macro! :) when i started tinkering with lisp i asked about making one of those... seemed natural but CL-ers claimed it would be an unusual style. I find the threadng macros help avoid excessive nesting depth
03:28	Bike	MOP has funcallable objects, yeah.
03:28	doomlord	its nice having it for the literal vectors IMO.
03:29	Sgeo	doomlord, I think I can grow to like it, but I was initially wanting something more functional
03:29	Sgeo	You can write something similar without macros
03:29	Sgeo	And arguably more flexibly
03:29	doomlord	F# has \|> .. which makes sense to me and again haskellers say "ew" to that
03:29	Sgeo	(thrush somemap #(assoc % :foo 20))
03:29	Sgeo	What's \|>, I don't know F#
03:30	Sgeo	Almost ashamed to say that there are languages that I know little about
03:30	doomlord	threading macro as infix :)
03:30	amalloy	Sgeo: it's `$`
03:30	doomlord	its $ backwards
03:30	Sgeo	Ah
03:30	doomlord	same deal. i asked on haskell, "is there.." and the answer was more or less "you're being stupid wanting to write code that way"
03:31	doomlord	i find with ->> you write the code as you think about it
03:31	Sgeo	There's going to be let-> in the future
03:31	Sgeo	Which is awesome
03:31	Sgeo	Also, you can put ->> inside -> comfortably
03:32	doomlord	i guess lot of the little macros can be done in CL. i made a "let" workalike, and a threading macro (i called it pipe)
03:32	doomlord	someone told me "reader macros" could actually implement vector /map literals, is that true?
03:32	Sgeo	doomlord, it should be possible to replicate most of the Clojure standard library in CL
03:33	Sgeo	doomlord, I believe so
03:33	doomlord	IMO the use of the other brackets doesn't go against the spirit of lisp: it is still trivial to parse
03:33	tomoj	but there is a reason clojure doesn't have reader macros
03:33	Bike	There are a few CL reader macro libraries for hashtables.
03:34	Bike	reader macros basically let you do whatever you want, which has its advantages, and its disadvantages...
03:34	doomlord	i haven't delved into CLOS or multimethods yet, those look interesting
03:34	Bike	such as parsing being uncomputable. not a good thing.
03:35	doomlord	i suppose destructuring functoin arguments is well within macros that could be retrofitted
03:35	doomlord	(defn vec-cross[[ax ay az][bx by bz]]...
03:35	Sgeo	doomlord, let which has destructuring expands into let* which does not
03:35	doomlord	that sort of thing is awesome
03:36	Sgeo	Common Lisp has a sort of destructuring
03:36	Sgeo	Don't remember details though
03:36	doomlord	multiple-value-bind ? and i've seen some in the loop macro.
03:36	Bike	destructuring-bind, you mean?
03:36	tomoj	imagine trying to do codeq with people using reader macro libraries :/
03:36	Sgeo	codeq?
03:36	tomoj	interestingly without a default reader literal thingy, I imagine codeq has a similar problem
03:36	tomoj	"reader literal" is a weird term
03:37	doomlord	perhaps the multiple-return values are more efficient in common lisp being a dedicated construct rather than vectors
03:37	Sgeo	Bike, what are some list manipulation functions that take keyword arguments?
03:37	Sgeo	I have a point I want to make
03:37	Bike	uh, like remove-if?
03:38	Bike	doomlord: the idea with multiple values is that the return values could be put in registers rather than a composite data structure, I think
03:38	Sgeo	Bike, sure
03:38	Sgeo	Why does it take :start and :end keys?
03:39	Sgeo	Efficiency purposes?
03:39	doomlord	i read it as stack but yeah.. 'vector' makes me think of more potentially going on re. allocation. I wonder if the implementations can just make it equivalent.
03:39	Bike	so that you can operate on subsequences without explicitly constructing new objects, is what I would think, yes.
03:39	Sgeo	Don't want to walk a list to drop a few things off the end then walk it again filtering?
03:39	Bike	yeah.
03:39	magnars	Please help me with naming :-) "does this collection have both elements that fulfill a certain predicate, and elements that do not?" (mixed integer? list) ? (mixture integer? list) ? (diverse integer? list) ? (mix-of integer? list) ? (varies integer? list) ? Something else?
03:39	Sgeo	Clojure's sequence operations are lazy, meaning if you do that, you'll only walk the list once.
03:40	Bike	doomlord: it'd have to be a pretty smart implementation, and you'd have to not rely on the function actualy returning a vector, etc
03:40	Bike	Sgeo: not sure I understand. example?
03:40	doomlord	all? and not-all? all-satisfy? and not-all-satisfy?
03:40	doomlord	(all? integer? list) vs (not-all? integer? list)
03:41	doomlord	(all? ) and (any? )
03:41	doomlord	thats what i was calling them
03:42	Sgeo	,(map inc (drop-last 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10]))
03:42	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6 ...)
03:42	doomlord	oh .. fails on empty list perhaps
03:42	Sgeo	,(map inc (drop-last 2 [1 2 3 4]))
03:42	clojurebot	(2 3)
03:42	Sgeo	That is not as inefficient as it looks
03:42	Sgeo	Hmm, I should use a literal list
03:42	Sgeo	,(map inc (drop-last 2 '(1 2 3 4())
03:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
03:42	Sgeo	,(map inc (drop-last 2 '(1 2 3 4)))
03:42	clojurebot	(2 3)
03:43	Sgeo	The drop-last won't actually go ahead and walk the list as soon as you call it
03:43	Sgeo	Instead, it will return a lazy-seq
03:43	magnars	I'm looking for something that can replace (and (every? integer? list) (not-every? integer? list)) with a single call ... right now I think I prefer (mix-of? integer? list)
03:43	doomlord	magnars: does your function have to return 'true' or 'false' for an empty list
03:43	Sgeo	And the map also returns a lazy seq
03:43	Bike	Oh, I see now.
03:43	Sgeo	With the effect of walking the original list once.
03:43	tomoj	magnars: uhh
03:43	tomoj	isn't that just false?
03:44	magnars	ah doh, I meant "some" not "every"
03:44	Bike	Yeah, that's probably a bit cleverer than passing a bunch of keys around.
03:44	Bike	(and (some? integer? list) (some (not integer?) list)), then?
03:45	tomoj	no
03:45	magnars	Bike: yes, that's what I want a name for
03:45	tomoj	some-but-not-all :(
03:45	doomlord	(and (not-all? integer list) list) ... but you dont want to pass list twice
03:46	Bike	Sgeo: map's still going to have to walk the whole list to figure out which two to drop, yes?
03:46	doomlord	ah its not the same at all
03:46	doomlord	no where ner
03:46	Sgeo	Bike, Haskell is pervasive in this idea of not doing things until it's needed. That's not the case in Clojure, where it's just sequences that are like this, in a language that is fundamentally eager
03:46	Sgeo	Bike, yes
03:47	Sgeo	Bike, actually, lists store their length, come to think of it
03:47	Sgeo	Although lazy sequences don't
03:47	Sgeo	,(counted? '())
03:47	clojurebot	true
03:47	Bike	presumably you can have infinite sequences as well.
03:47	Sgeo	,(counted? (map identity '()))
03:47	clojurebot	false
03:47	Sgeo	Yes.
03:47	doomlord	(any-and-any-not? integer? srclist ) :)
03:47	Sgeo	,(range)
03:47	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
03:47	Bike	,(length (range))
03:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: length in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
03:47	Sgeo	,(count (range))
03:48	Bike	Oops.
03:48	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
03:48	Bike	so infinite sequences don't keep track of their infinitude.
03:48	Bike	but yes, lazy sequences are cool. I particularly liked that part of SICP.
03:49	doomlord	(not-all-or-none? integer? ls )
03:49	Bike	Where you could just define e as (lazy-cons 1 (integrate e))
03:49	Bike	er, derivative.
03:49	Sgeo	,(doc lazy-seq)
03:49	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. See also - realized?"
03:49	Sgeo	Hmm, not the same as lazy-cons
03:49	Sgeo	(doc lazy-cons)
03:49	clojurebot	Huh?
03:49	Sgeo	Darn
03:50	Bike	Well, yes, it seems like in Clojure lists are more like sequences, whereas in CL they're usually dumb conses.
03:50	tomoj	I believe lazy-cons is a historical artifact
03:50	Sgeo	Hmm.... I think (def e (lazy-seq (cons 1 (derivative e))))
03:50	Sgeo	Don't quote me on that though
03:50	tomoj	maybe it still could be rarely useful?
03:51	tomoj	oh, wait, lazy-cons is gone
03:51	Sgeo	(comp lazy-seq cons)
03:51	Sgeo	What's wrong with lazy-cons?
03:51	Bike	Wait, there was actually a Clojure function called that? I was just quoting SICP.
03:51	Bike	It was just a macro for (cons a (delay b)) as far as I remember.
03:52	Bike	You could do the same thing in a more sequencey way, of course.
03:53	Mr_Bond	Hm, I really like Clojure as a language, but I think it's often hard to find my mistakes since the backtrace is from the java-generated code compiling.
03:53	Mr_Bond	How do you overcome this when coding Clojure?
03:53	doomlord	is there a plain interpreter or is it always compiled to jvm
03:54	Mr_Bond	AFAIK, it's jvm, .net or javascript.
03:54	Bike	"Clojure has no interpreter.", very straightforward, clojure.org
03:55	Sgeo	The stacktraces are the worst part of Clojure
03:56	tomoj	http://clojure.org/lazy has some notes about lazy-cons in clojure
03:56	Mr_Bond	I see there is something called clojure.contrib.trace, which could be useful in some situations.
03:56	Sgeo	tomoj, awesome
03:57	muhoo	oh if you think java clojure stacktraces are bad, try clojurescript stacktraces
03:58	tomoj	I think @ and seq should be synonyms on seqs
03:58	tomoj	Sgeo: what was your beef about names for promises something like "defer"?
03:59	amalloy	magnars: i dunno about your function's name, but isn't it just (apply not= (map pred coll))?
03:59	Sgeo	tomoj, I don't remember
04:00	Sgeo	Oh, I found something
04:01	Sgeo	* Sgeo persists in suggesting that Deferreds should be Deferrable
04:01	Sgeo	tomoj, oh, for your library
04:02	doomlord	whats (not= ) with zero args
04:02	Sgeo	You were making a sort of promise-like thing that was intended to be monadic
04:02	Sgeo	However, your code was not able to support the notion of a Deferred containing a Deferred
04:02	tomoj	right
04:02	Sgeo	And without that, it violates monad laws
04:02	tomoj	I still don't care yet
04:03	tomoj	but I was stuck thinking about how promises in synchronous clojure require @
04:03	tomoj	but seq code doesn't
04:03	tomoj	but seq is just @ I think :)
04:03	doomlord	what should magnars function return with zero args... false i think
04:03	Sgeo	,(not=)
04:03	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$not-EQ->
04:04	doomlord	(mix-of? integer? nil) -> false, not "error wrong number of args" ?
04:04	Sgeo	tomoj, ah, I see your point
04:05	doomlord	so apply not= would fail
04:05	Sgeo	tomoj, I would say that the sequence manipulation functions are all expecting a seq, including possibly a lazy seq, but stuff for which you're using promises isn't generally expecting promises, but concrete non-promise values
04:05	Sgeo	Could transform functions to expect promises
04:06	Sgeo	But then, what happens if you want to pass such a function a plain old value? Make a promise out of it. Now, what happens if you want to pass such a function a promise that it would somehow manipulate, but it's expecting a promise that the wrapped version will be waiting on
04:07	tomoj	yeah
04:07	Sgeo	Thus, you'll be passing the wrapped version of the function a promise in a promise
04:08	tomoj	I still don't think I care
04:08	tomoj	there is only one thing a promise can do
04:08	tomoj	so if I do it for you, I only saved you work
04:08	tomoj	not sure though..
04:09	Sgeo	A promise is a promise to return a value ... vs ... a promise is a promise to return a value that is not itself a promise
04:09	tomoj	promises aren't values :(
04:09	Sgeo	They aren't?
04:09	Sgeo	,(promise identity)
04:09	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$promise>
04:09	Sgeo	(doc promise)
04:09	clojurebot	"([]); Alpha - subject to change. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. All subsequent derefs will return the same delivered value without blocking. See also - realized?."
04:09	tomoj	depends on how you define "value" of course
04:10	Sgeo	,(promise)
04:10	clojurebot	#<core$promise$reify__3678@5e329ba8: :pending>
04:10	Sgeo	It's a thing that can be passed around and manipulated
04:10	Sgeo	Seems like a value to me, just as much as a function is a value.
04:12	Sgeo	It tends to be a bad idea to have abrupt exceptions to things, it confuses people and makes writing code harder, since people now have to check for the special case
04:15	tomoj	I would say it's a monadic value, but..
04:16	Sgeo	Are monadic values not values?
04:16	amalloy	Sgeo: that's a pretty broad definition of value. is a char* a value?
04:16	tomoj	sometimes "value" can mean something different, where e.g. atoms/refs/(clojure.core/)promises aren't values
04:16	doomlord	whats let-> that was mentioned above
04:16	tomoj	you have to deref to get the value
04:17	amalloy	you can pass them around, but they change all the time. treating them as casually as you'd treat actual immutable values leads to devastation
04:17	tomoj	or for defers (using "promise" is too confusing), you have to defer
04:18	Sgeo	hmm
04:18	Bike	char* as in a char pointer? of course that's a value, that what it's pointing to may change doesn't affect that...
04:19	amalloy	Bike: that's a possible and useful definition of value, but not one that's popular in clojure
04:20	Sgeo	I think I had Bike's definition in mind
04:20	Sgeo	But is there a Clojure term for the concept?
04:20	Sgeo	If an atom isn't a value, can we call it an entity?
04:20	Bike	sure. I thought you might have been speaking more broadly. If "value" means something more specific in the context of Clojure and/or promises, then that's that.
04:21	amalloy	Sgeo: call it an object, then. anything is an object, which is what you're calling values so far
04:21	tomoj	"entity" is taken by datomic :P
04:22	Sgeo	tomoj, do you intend for your defers to only take values, or any objects?
04:23	tomoj	I can't stop you from putting a non-value in there, but if you do, you lose all the nice properties I'm trying to get
04:23	tomoj	so I don't care too much about supporting that
04:23	tomoj	..and if you want to stick an atom in there for some reason, it'll work
04:23	tomoj	just not a defer :/
04:25	tomoj	but you're probably right
04:25	Sgeo	Does it need to be a monad, or could you make it an applicative instead and still have it be nice to use?
04:25	tomoj	if you have a cps transform that just converts deref -> defer, then I don't think it's a problem anyway
04:26	tomoj	if you want to pass a defer to a function, you just don't deref (defer)
04:28	Sgeo	Hmm.
04:28	Sgeo	Suddenly I'm wondering if defers are arrows
04:29	Sgeo	(As in, if it is an arrow, I guess I really can't object to making a fake monad)
04:33	tomoj	apparently the Monad instance for Future is equivalent to the Writer monad
04:35	tomoj	applicative is not enough
04:37	Sgeo	In what sense?
04:38	Sgeo	Reason I ask is because if you find a use case for which applicative (or possibly arrow) is not enough, then I think it's quite likely that that use case will somehow involve nested defer
04:39	tomoj	hmm
04:40	tomoj	the semantics are that the (eventual) value of (<*> future-f future-val) is (@future-f @future-val), occurring at the later of the times of future-f and future-val
04:41	tomoj	(>>= defer f) is (f @defer), which is itself a defer (pardon my terminology flux)
04:42	tomoj	(occurring at the later of the times of defer and (f @defer))
04:42	tomoj	I'm not sure how >>= maps to my clojure ideas
04:47	tomoj	one relevant example might be if you had a future seq (just like ISeq except rest returns a defer) of relative times, a future seq (or seq!?) of values, and a function that takes a relative time and a value and returns a defer that resolves to the value after the time
04:47	tomoj	and map that function over the two (f)seqs
04:49	tomoj	that seems overly confusing
04:53	Sgeo	So, in order to resolve the resulting defer, you need to wait on two defers
04:53	Sgeo	?
04:53	Sgeo	Oh right, your problem was with not wanting to have a way to not join automatically
04:54	tomoj	well
04:54	tomoj	the functor is broken
04:55	Sgeo	I'm sure there's something somewhere on why the monad laws should be obeyed
04:55	tomoj	(fmap (f :: a -> Future b) (a :: Future a)) :: Future b
04:55	tomoj	I think
04:55	tomoj	>>= means you don't have to @@ in the case above
04:56	tomoj	(I think)
04:56	Sgeo	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_Laws
04:56	shachaf	tomoj: That doesn't look like fmap.
04:56	shachaf	I guess that's what you were saying.
04:57	shachaf	What's Future?
04:57	tomoj	http://conal.net/papers/push-pull-frp/
05:00	tomoj	"a value that can't be known yet"
05:02	shachaf	This seems to be a pretty specific meaning of the word "future".
05:03	tomoj	it's confusing, since I don't mean clojure.core/future
05:03	alex_baranosky	magnars: I'd call it `one-or-more`
05:04	tomoj	but-not-all? :(
05:06	amalloy	magnars: disparate?
05:15	AtKaaZ	is this the right way to test for unbound? (= clojure.lang.Var$Unbound (class conn))
05:15	AtKaaZ	or this? ##(bound? #'conn)
05:15	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: conn in this context
05:16	Sgeo	(doc bound?)
05:16	Raynes	Don't know why you'd use the former given the latter.
05:16	AtKaaZ	I just found that last one :/
05:16	clojurebot	"([& vars]); Returns true if all of the vars provided as arguments have any bound value, root or thread-local. Implies that deref'ing the provided vars will succeed. Returns true if no vars are provided."
05:16	AtKaaZ	thanks
05:16	Sgeo	##(with-local-vars [boom] (bound? #'boom))
05:16	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: with-local-vars requires an even number of forms in binding vector in clojure.core:1
05:17	Sgeo	##(with-local-vars [boom 5] (bound? #'boom))
05:17	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Var is bad!
05:17	AtKaaZ	I think I have to use it like this: (bound? (var conn))
05:17	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, try attempting to resolve the symbol?
05:17	Raynes	Uh
05:17	Raynes	The bound of bound? is that the var exists, but isn't bound to anything.
05:17	Raynes	If the var might not even exist, you're going to want to use resolve or something to check that it exists at all.
05:18	Sgeo	Existent but unbound vars are created by declare
05:18	tgoossens	is there an easy way to execute shell commands (on linux) from clojure? (Perhaps by using a certain java lib?)
05:18	AtKaaZ	I see what you mean, but in my case the var would always exist hmm... but I wouldn't mind being extra safe
05:18	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, if it always exists, just use bound?
05:18	Raynes	Sgeo: (def x) is also valid.
05:19	Raynes	tgoossens: https://github.com/Raynes/conch
05:19	tgoossens	thanks
05:19	Raynes	Or clojure.java.shell if you don't want external dependencies/what conch offers and c.j.s does what you need.
05:19	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, maybe I should add the resolve test too? since I like defensive programming :)
05:19	tgoossens	what i need is
05:19	tgoossens	execute a command
05:19	tgoossens	show result
05:20	tgoossens	a "repl" for shell
05:20	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, just be aware of namespacing issues
05:20	Raynes	That isn't defensive programming. That's bizarre programming.
05:21	Raynes	Might as well check the type of all your integers just to be sure, and convert from strings and stuff just in case.
05:22	AtKaaZ	I see what you mean
05:34	clojurenewb	hi guys, I'm looking for a nice way to process some keys in a map depending on the key name… its the age old serialisation treating everything as strings problem… one example, I'd like to convert {:a "one" :b "2" :c "3"} to {:a "one" :b 2 :c 3}, so only process keys :b and :c
05:36	alex_baranosky	clojurenewb: if it is depending on key name… then just bond on the key names
05:36	alex_baranosky	or is it on the value type?
05:37	clojurenewb	alex_baranosky: its on the key name, and it will always be from string to long
05:37	tomoj	clojurenewb: I'm doing the same thing today
05:38	ejackson	clojurenewb: you could use select-key to extract the subset you want , convert them all, and then merge wit the original map to 'overwrite'
05:39	ejackson	select-keys rather
05:39	alex_baranosky	(into {} (for [[k v] my-map] (cond (= :foo (class k)) (some-fn v) (= :bar (class k)) (other-fn v) :else ….))))))
05:39	clojurenewb	cool, I'll take a look thanks
05:39	alex_baranosky	You can only use select-keys if you know the keys
05:40	alex_baranosky	I need more details to narrow down your options
05:40	clojurenewb	yes, I will always know the keys
05:41	tomoj	I wrote this today https://www.refheap.com/paste/6096
05:41	clojurenewb	and it will always be a string to long conversion
05:41	tomoj	I think there is probably something better
05:41	clojurenewb	for those select keys
05:42	tomoj	(update-all map :a #(Long. %) :b #(Long. %))
05:42	tomoj	it uses update-in so also (update-all map [:x :y] #(Long. %)) to handle {:x {:y "1"}}
05:43	clojurenewb	I'll give it a go
05:43	tgoossens	I'm using clojure.java.shell/sh to execute shell commands. But commands like: "ls \| grep test" gives me Exception in thread "main" java.io.IOException: Cannot run program "ls \| grep test": error=2, No such file or directory
05:43	tgoossens
05:44	mishok13	can anybody recommend HTTP user agent parsing library?
05:45	mishok13	user-agent-utils is not in Maven central or Clojars
05:47	AtKaaZ	I'm getting an error and I notice it doesn't specify the exact line() in my source file which I loaded with Alt+Ctrl+L Load File in REPL (in eclipse+ccw): http://pastebin.com/9md7kNV2 is that() supposed to happen?
05:47	ejackson	clojurenewb: if f is a the function that converts "one" to 1, then this will sort you (reduce (fn [om k] (update-in om [k] f)) m keys)
05:48	tomoj	hmm
05:48	tomoj	update-all seems silly, at least the implementation
05:49	ejackson	reduce might be better ?
05:52	tomoj	maybe it should be (update-all [m kss f & args])
05:52	clojurenewb	ejackson: I am pushing the limit of my understanding with your idea there.. can't figure out how to apply it
05:52	tomoj	(-> m (update-all [:a :b [:x :y]] #(Long. %)) (update-all [:date] parse-date))
05:52	ejackson	tomoj: yeah, if f is always the same.
05:53	tomoj	er, the last one is silly ofc :)
05:53	wei_	how do you pass data structures to clojurescript upon initial load of your page? (e.g. not with remotes)
05:54	tomoj	good question
05:54	tomoj	if you are advanced compiling, it seems difficult?
05:54	ejackson	clojurenewb: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6097
05:55	clojurenewb	I see
05:55	clojurenewb	thx!
05:56	AtKaaZ	regarding my previous error, that's what shows when I forget to add [] vector to the (defn x (println "some"))
05:56	tomoj	wei_: the reader appears to be implemented in cljs
05:57	tomoj	so, one possibility is to render something like `var data = "{:foo 3}";` in separate js file you serve
05:57	tomoj	then later in your cljs you could read it..
05:58	wei_	aha i see. thanks.
06:12	clgv	why are line breaks not matched by `re-find`? e.g. ##(re-find #"<bla>(.*)</>" "<bla>lala lulu\nlili</>")
06:12	lazybot	⇒ nil
06:12	clgv	without linebreak it works (re-find #"<bla>(.*)</>" "<bla>lala lulu lili</>")
06:12	clgv	&(re-find #"<bla>(.*)</>" "<bla>lala lulu lili</>")
06:12	lazybot	⇒ ["<bla>lala lulu lili</>" "lala lulu lili"]
06:14	_ulises	clgv: there's a switch in perl regexps to match across \n; not sure what the switch in java would be though; point is: you're probably missing that switch
06:14	_ulises	clgv: in perl you'd do /regexp/g <- the g there tells the engine to match across lines
06:14	_ulises	i.e. globally
06:20	AtKaaZ	Multiline mode can enabled via (?m). from here: http://nakkaya.com/2009/10/25/regular-expressions-in-clojure/
06:20	clgv	_ulises: ok. you are right. unluckily clojure re-pattern function has no support for options. thus I have to use Pattern class directly
06:20	AtKaaZ	but someone tell me where do I need to put that to work
06:21	magnars	Thanks for all the suggestions for naming the function (and (some pred list) (some (not pred) list)) ... right now the one I like best is (only-some pred list) - what do you think?
06:23	alex_baranosky	magnars: that name isn't obvious to me
06:23	alex_baranosky	magnars: what did you think of `at-least-one`
06:23	AtKaaZ	,(re-find #"(?sm)<bla>(.*)</>" "<bla>lala lulu\nlili</>")
06:24	clojurebot	["<bla>lala lulu\nlili</>" "lala lulu\nlili"]
06:24	magnars	at-least-one isn't correct, since it would be true for a collection where all match
06:24	alex_baranosky	ah… its at-least-one-but-not-all … and that name is no good :)
06:24	AtKaaZ	(?s) In dotall mode, the expression . matches any character, including a line terminator.
06:24	magnars	bit verbose maybe :)
06:25	AtKaaZ	,(re-find #"(?s)<bla>(.*)</>" "<bla>lala lulu\nlili</>")
06:25	clojurebot	["<bla>lala lulu\nlili</>" "lala lulu\nlili"]
06:25	alex_baranosky	`some-match-some-fail`
06:25	_ulises	magnars: how about one+-!all ;)
06:25	clgv	AtKaaZ: ah nice find :)
06:26	alex_baranosky	_ulises: fancy stuff
06:26	_ulises	alex_baranosky: if by fancy you mean unreadable, then yes :D
06:26	magnars	_ulises: hehe :-) the best names I've found so far are disparate, varies, mix-of and only-some
06:27	hyPiRion	Uh, that's not XML, is it?
06:27	hyPiRion	(Just a question)
06:27	alex_baranosky	magnars: I personally wold go for more verbosity
06:28	magnars	alex_baranosky: that's a valid opinion for sure. I'll give it some more thought.
06:28	clgv	hyPiRion: not it's borrowed from xml notation to add parameter docs in a docstring
06:28	alex_baranosky	magnars: … because none of those names are understandable without reading the implementation… …. but that might be unavoidable
06:28	clgv	clgv: I just noticed that I do not support multiline docs for params
06:29	hyPiRion	clgv: Okay. It's kind of dangerous to parse this with regex though. might want to either find a lib or make a parser for it.
06:29	hyPiRion	Talking from own experience ;)
06:29	clgv	hyPiRion: why? because of errors in the string?
06:30	hyPiRion	clgv: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/590747/using-regular-expressions-to-parse-html-why-not
06:30	mpan	btw guys, there was someone asking about clojure on hn but they seemed a little confused about what clojure is or isn't
06:30	mpan	so if someone wants to go and give them some pointers, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4691615
06:30	clgv	hyPiRion: I do not want to parse html ;)
06:30	hyPiRion	It really depends on what implementation you have though.
06:31	clgv	I just want to extract parameter descriptions from a "well formed" doc string. if the user makes errors he will see them ;)
06:31	mpan	I'm a bit too confused by what they said to really know what to say to them
06:31	hyPiRion	clgv: ah, then it should be okay.
06:32	hyPiRion	I suppose.
06:46	kaoD	hi
06:46	mpan	hi
06:49	unnali	hi
07:08	wingy	perhaps in an ideal scenario the functions will be immutable as well?
07:08	wingy	i mean saved throughout time
07:09	wingy	nvm .. wild fantasies
07:19	_ulises	wingy: saved through time?
07:19	wingy	in a database
07:20	AtKaaZ	you can already in datomic no?
07:20	wingy	many many years from now we will have a central bank with all data logging everything
07:20	_ulises	what do you mean by saving a function through time? it's body? or?
07:20	wingy	yeah we can .. it all started with Rich!
07:20	wingy	he is like John Conner
07:20	wingy	without realizing it
07:20	clgv	wingy: I hope not to live in such a 1984 world ^^
07:20	wingy	_ulises: saving a the function so you can look at its body and also use it in your program like anything saved in datomic
07:22	_ulises	ah, gotcha
07:22	_ulises	saved the function not in a local file but in a remote location but still be able to execute it, etc.
07:22	_ulises	sounds a lot like RPC
07:22	_ulises	but not quite
07:23	wingy	no i mean you fetch it like any data from the db then you exectute it in memory as usual
07:24	mishok13	I can't get simplest Java import to work properly in Clojure -- could somebody take a look at this: https://gist.github.com/3945518 ?
07:24	wingy	btw regarding code is data .. would it be okay to save functions then in a db to do what i just said?
07:25	babilen	Hi all -- What is the fastest way to build a map from two sequences (key-seq and val-seq) ? val-seq is a reducer (from r/map mapped over key-seq) -- I essentially want a mapping key → f(key), but folding into a map is horribly slow, so I am looking for an alternative.
07:25	mishok13	I've never had any issues with Clojure packages downloaded from Maven/Clojar, but this one I had to install into local repo, that might be causing some issues
07:25	wingy	since code is data and data can be versionized using datomic .. a logical outcome would be that its okay to save functions if one needs it for some reason
07:25	tgoossens	wingy: mmyes why not
07:25	hyPiRion	babilen: Do you mean like ##(zipmap [:a :b :c] (range 3))
07:25	lazybot	⇒ {:c 2, :b 1, :a 0}
07:26	wingy	tgoossens: just forgot one caveat .. you can't save a data structure as it is in datomic .. you have to break it down .. forgot that
07:28	_ulises	wingy: nothing stops you from saving them as mysql blobs
07:28	babilen	hyPiRion: Yeah, that would be an option, but also strikes me as slower than it could be (due to it not using transients) -- I tried something like (r/fold (r/monoid merge hash-map) ... but that is slow (and not very parallel unfortunately)
07:28	_ulises	wingy: or even couchdb documents
07:28	wingy	_ulises: or even strings
07:28	_ulises	wingy: precisely
07:29	babilen	hyPiRion: Right now I am tempted to use (assoc! (transient {}) (interleave key-seq val-seq))) but am not sure if this is the best approach.
07:29	babilen	err, (apply assoc! ... that is
07:30	hyPiRion	babilen: you can do a transient version of the current zipmap-implementation.
07:30	hyPiRion	If you lookup the source.
07:31	hyPiRion	Is the speed an issue in your case, btw?
07:32	babilen	hyPiRion: Unfortunately it is (i benchmarked it) ... I would, naturally, prefer to just use zipmap (et al.) but I was wondering if I could speed this up.
07:32	babilen	The main problem is that reducing into a map is slow (which comes up once in a while on the mailing list too), but using at least a transient version of zipmap would help. I don't quite understand though why zipmap is not transient by default.
07:34	hyPiRion	babilen: no transient! and persistent! in 1.0, and it worked fine, so why bother changing it?
07:34	AtKaaZ	mishok13, that works for me with this set prior to running mvn command: JAVA_HOME=c:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_06 on win7 64bit
07:34	babilen	hyPiRion: Well, perfomance comes to mind. ;)
07:34	AtKaaZ	mishok13, also using this mvn apache-maven-3.0.4
07:35	babilen	hyPiRion: I'll play a little
07:35	hyPiRion	babilen: Try it out with reducing over a synchronized HashMap
07:36	hyPiRion	to check what the maximal performance with mutability is.
07:37	babilen	hyPiRion: I don't quite understand what you mean by that, could you elaborate a little?
07:38	hyPiRion	babilen: Screw the synchronized part: Check out the speed difference over (do (.put hm k v) hm) rather than (assoc! hm k v)
07:39	hyPiRion	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/HashMap.html
07:40	Kneferilis	anyone had experience with LiveCode?
07:40	babilen	hyPiRion: Ack, thanks!
07:43	wingy	where can i find a list of all keys i can have in a meta data for functions?
07:47	mpan	hm? I thought you could set whatever you wanted
07:47	mpan	if you mean which keys have special significance, I'd be interested in knowing that too
08:00	AtKaaZ	wingy: http://clojure.org/special_forms but they are not all, at least :column isn't there
08:01	AtKaaZ	,(keys (meta (resolve '+)))
08:01	clojurebot	(:ns :name :file :line :arglists ...)
08:02	wingy	im searching for a :see or :see-also meta data key for redirecting to a external homepage
08:02	wingy	the worse part is that the reference doc is not complete .. if one cant get that info from clojure homepage, where can one get it
08:02	wingy	a full list of all meta data keys you can use would be great
08:02	AtKaaZ	it's in the :doc in the case of +
08:02	AtKaaZ	,(:doc (meta (resolve '+)))
08:02	clojurebot	"Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote\n longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
08:03	AtKaaZ	nevermind :)
08:03	wingy	i recall there is a special key for it
08:03	wingy	,(:doc (meta #'+))
08:03	clojurebot	"Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote\n longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
08:03	AtKaaZ	,(meta (resolve 'cl-format))
08:03	clojurebot	nil
08:04	AtKaaZ	:see-also [["http://whatever" "Common Lisp the Language"]
08:06	AtKaaZ	wingy: http://pastebin.com/bkRjp72a
08:06	wingy	AtKaaZ: thx!
08:09	AtKaaZ	hmm it's the only use of :see-also in the entire clojure sourcecode ##(:see-also (meta (resolve 'clojure.pprint/cl-format)))
08:09	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
08:09	antares_	anyone in here going to the Conj?
08:10	clgv	wingy: define a function (defn f [x] ) in your file, eval it and use (-> #'f meta keys)
08:12	wingy	clgv: yeah .. i can get some of them that way
08:12	clgv	wingy: the othey keys are customly added in the definition form
08:12	clgv	*other
08:13	wingy	so :see-also is just a custom one?
08:13	AtKaaZ	wingy, probably, since nothing else in clojure code uses it, except cl-format
08:13	clgv	wingy: yeah. I dont know where you found that one. it's probably for some documentation generation tool
08:13	wingy	okay
08:14	wingy	i forgot that clojure is an interactive platform .. everything you wanna check you check in the running instance
08:14	AtKaaZ	,(use 'clojure.pprint)
08:14	clojurebot	nil
08:14	AtKaaZ	,(:see-also (meta (var clojure.pprint/cl-format)))
08:14	clojurebot	[["http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node200.html#SECTION002633000000000000000" "Common Lisp the Language"] ["http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm" "Common Lisp HyperSpec"]]
08:17	antares_	anyway, if someone in here is going to the Conj, consider hosting an unsession on documentation: https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/wiki/Clojure-conj-2012-Unsessions
08:17	antares_	unlike monads and codeq, any progress with documentation benefit the entire Clojure community
08:17	antares_	*benefits
08:17	antares_	but I won't be at the conj so I can't host it
09:54	samaaron	does anyone know how to set the java.library.path in CCW?
09:55	ejackson	samaaron: what ? oh wait... tomorrow :)
09:55	AtKaaZ	samaaron: with leiningen support?
09:56	samaaron	AtKaaZ: well, lein 2 should do this for you automagically, but it doesn't appear to in CCW
09:56	samaaron	also, I tried adding a :native-path key to my project.clj but CCW seemed to ignore that too
09:57	pandeiro	i need to recurse through nested maps and do arbitrary modifications to some strings - which functions can help me?
09:57	AtKaaZ	but you still have to use lein to make .jars right?
09:57	samaaron	I'm just not sure if I want to introduce devs to both Emacs and Clojure in a workshop
09:58	samaaron	AtKaaZ: to be honest, I have no idea how CCW interacts with lein
09:58	samaaron	pandeiro: you might want to take a look at zippers
09:59	pandeiro	samaaron: i had an inkling zippers were relevant, thks
09:59	samaaron	pandeiro: np
10:00	AtKaaZ	samaaron, I didn't try much but I found that I had to use lein uberjar to create the jar, ccw wasn't enough, :native-path should've been it I think, wonder if it's obsolete now
10:00	samaaron	AtKaaZ: it doesn't appear to be obsolete in pure lein-land
10:00	samaaron	I'm just guessing that CCW doesn't support everything lein supports
10:01	AtKaaZ	samaaron, you're right it's not obsolete, :native-path "target/native"
10:01	uvtc	samaaron: re. new users and Emacs vs. Eclipse; maybe have a peek at jEdit ... which recently got some Clojure indenting support. I made a note about it at http://clojure-doc.org/articles/ecosystem/development_tools.html#jedit
10:01	AtKaaZ	samaaron, maybe you can set it using :jvm-opts ["-Xmx512m"] ...?
10:02	samaaron	uvtc: how easy is it to get jEdit set up on a new machine - and does it support lein integration, docstring completion, partial compilation etc?
10:03	uvtc	samaaron: As far as I know, it's just syntax highlighting and now indentation support. But I'm not a regular jEdit user. Perhaps someone else would know if it supports what you're looking for.
10:03	AtKaaZ	samaaron: https://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/issues/detail?id=343
10:03	samaaron	AtKaaZ: I'm not sure that would work - the java.library.path gets passed as the argument to -D to the java command
10:03	uvtc	samaaron: jEdit is written in Java, so, you just run its installer jar to install.
10:03	samaaron	uvtc: I'm really just looking for CCW with support for native deps
10:04	uvtc	samaaron: check
10:04	samaaron	but perhaps I'll have to look elsewhere
10:04	samaaron	argh
10:12	lynaghk`	Is it possible to access a protected field of a Java class from a subclass made in Clojure via proxy?
10:12	lynaghk`	The field is "printer", and I've tried (.printer this) within the method that I'm overriding but I'm not having any luck.
10:13	ejackson	lynaghk: I had this issue about 2 years ago, and at that time the answer was no.
10:14	lynaghk`	ejackson: how'd you end up getting around it? Subclassing yourself in Java?
10:14	ejackson	edited the java to make the field public :)
10:14	ejackson	three cheers for open source
10:14	lynaghk`	wahhhhhh
10:15	AtKaaZ	samaaron, it's working for me with :native-path it extracted the .dll files found in the .jars in the folder that I specified
10:15	samaaron	oh really?
10:15	samaaron	what did you put?
10:15	samaaron	was it the full path?
10:15	ejackson	it may have gotten fixed since then. Actually, I mis-recall, I was not using proxy but gen-class. Close.
10:16	samaaron	I didn't try that
10:16	AtKaaZ	samaaron: i added this line to project.clj :native-path "native2"
10:17	lynaghk`	ejackson: I'm not an expert on Java keywords, but my understanding is that "protected" fields should be acessible by subclasses. So does proxy not make a "real" subclass?
10:17	samaaron	native2?
10:17	AtKaaZ	samaaron: and after save it made a native2 folder in project and all .dll are there from ie. in my case from jme3-lwjgl-natives...jar
10:17	AtKaaZ	samaaron: just a name for a folder "native2"
10:17	samaaron	oh ok - but can CCW see that?
10:17	ejackson	lynaghk: I got nothing, dude. Not java fluent.
10:17	samaaron	i.e. does CCW set the java.library.path to native2
10:17	AtKaaZ	let me check
10:18	lynaghk`	ejackson: okay, thanks dude. I'll just give it a crack in Java-world.
10:18	ejackson	lynaghk: is it static ? Have you tried this/printer
10:19	AtKaaZ	samaaron: i ran this in repl but it's nil ##(java.lang.System/getProperty "java.lang.library")
10:19	lazybot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.lang.library read)
10:19	AtKaaZ	samaaron, oops, i corrected but native2 doesn't seem to be in the list
10:20	AtKaaZ	(java.lang.System/getProperty "java.library.path")
10:21	samaaron	AtKaaZ: yep, same here
10:25	lynaghk`	ejackson: this/printer throws "no such namespace: this"
10:30	AtKaaZ	samaaron, it's a bad hack but you can set it like so: :jvm-opts ["-Xmx512m" "-Djava.library.path=native2/"]
10:30	AtKaaZ	thing is, it overwrites the previous value
10:31	samaaron	oh, really...
10:31	samaaron	awesome
10:31	AtKaaZ	oh wait, it only works in lein (retesting)
10:31	AtKaaZ	yep, only in command line lein :/ not in ccw
10:31	samaaron	argh
10:33	AtKaaZ	maybe you can do this: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/leiningen/2OZQPMi3cks/DPfsUVJ78hwJ
10:33	AtKaaZ	the extract is what :native-path already does
10:36	samaaron	AtKaaZ: oh, that might work...
10:36	AtKaaZ	I think :native-path is meant to only do extract, nothing about setting that var; :native-path "src/native" ; where to extract native dependencies
10:38	samaaron	AtKaaZ: ha - success, I just needed to (System/setProperty "java.library.path" "target/native/macosx/x86_64")
10:38	samaaron	laurentpetit: howdy
10:38	samaaron	I got overtone working by (System/setProperty "java.library.path" "target/native/macosx/x86_64")
10:44	ejackson	samaaron: I didn't know you could do that dynamically
10:44	samaaron	ejackson: seems that you can :-)
10:54	clgv	samaaron: ejackson: but might be safer to add that path instead of set it as only one
10:54	samaaron	clgv: oh, sure
11:22	arrdem	is there a clean way to accumulate values across several macros? say I wanted to define `mydef` such that it will expand into a def and add a key/val pair to some shared map
11:23	arrdem	how would I acheive the side-effect of re-defining the map?
11:25	ynniv	so, is sharing code between clojure and clojurescript really this annoying?
11:26	llasram	arrdem: Check out the Clojure core implementation of protocols, specifically `extend`. It's not really a common idiom, but that's probably the closest
11:26	ejackson	lynaghk: sorry, I meant use the classname for whatever this is.
11:27	dnolen	ynniv: yes. are you using one of the various work arounds that people have built?
11:28	ynniv	I'm hoping not to, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen
11:28	ynniv	what's the favorite so far?
11:29	dnolen	ynniv: lein-cljsbuild has some facilities. I don't know much about it though.
11:45	Baldanders	So, I've been having some real problems with Leiningen getting jars from the maven repos, and I'm wnodering if anyone else has seen this or knows what to do about it. It takes a tremendously long time- I have had to leave it running overnight. And in some cases it is just failing to get jars. I'm specifically trying to get the deps for noir right now, but the slowness was happening even when lein was trying to get its own d
11:45	Baldanders	(though it did eventually get all of them, after several hours of gringing away. Any ideas?
11:46	stankley	Baldanders: Hmmmm...
11:46	Baldanders	I'm on a windows 7 machine, btw, and my internet connection is otherwise fine.
11:46	stankley	Baldanders: When was this, specifically?
11:47	stankley	Baldanders: And are you still having problems?
11:47	Baldanders	I didd find this issue on the leiningen site: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/534
11:47	Baldanders	I installed lein on Monda morning, I think. It has been consistent since then.
11:48	Baldanders	But that issue is marked closed, as I guess they got some miror support into Leiningen that fixed it.
11:49	Baldanders	It could just be a problem with the maven repos it is trying to use, but I would expect that if that were the case a lot of people would be seeing it.
11:50	stankley	Baldanders: Yeah, that sucks. I started doing all my Clojure development in Virtual Machines, I don't know what you're working on, but check out my repo for a Vagrant VM: https://github.com/burningion/emacs-clojure-vagrant
11:50	stankley	Emacs 24, Leinengen, Chef, and PostgreSQL
11:50	stankley	Makes everything easy in my experience, YMMV
11:51	stankley	Haven't had any slowness working in Linux
11:55	Baldanders	Hmm- well for the noir stuff I want to do I could do it in a VM, but there is some other stuff I want to do with Clojure that reaelly needs good performance, and the development really should be done under Windows.
11:55	Baldanders	But may check out the VM you posted for the noir stuff, which is my more immediate priority. Thanks.
11:56	Baldanders	It would be nice to figure this out though, as it makes using Leiningen basically imposiible for me, and I don't think I did anything wrong to cause it.
11:57	Baldanders	But if no one here has any idea, maybe I should post to the leiningen group.
11:57	Baldanders	Anyway, thanks again.
11:57	stankley	Baldanders: Feel you. Yeah, I would post to the group.
12:44	bdesham	I'm looking for a function that will do "map" on the values of a map
12:45	bdesham	so (my-function #(* 2 5) {:a 3 :b :4 :c 5}) -> {:a 6 :b 8 :c 10}
12:45	bdesham	oops, should be #(* 2 %)
12:48	dnolen	you know if the CLJS compiler would AOT it would probably be a lot faster ...
12:48	bdesham	,(apply hash-map (flatten (for [[k v] {:a 3 :b :4 :c 5}] [k (* 2 v)])))
12:48	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
12:48	bdesham	,(apply hash-map (flatten (for [[k v] {:a 3 :b 4 :c 5}] [k (* 2 v)])))
12:48	clojurebot	{:a 6, :c 10, :b 8}
12:48	bdesham	I'd like something without flatten though
12:50	S11001001	bdesham: put your map in a real map instead and change map to mapcat
12:50	jkkramer	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a 3 :b 4 :c 5}] [k (* 2 v)])
12:50	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:50	S11001001	bdesham: you can also write this: (for [[k v] ... r [k ...]] r)
12:50	jkkramer	or use https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/map.clj#L47
12:51	S11001001	jkkramer: that's much better, I didn't even read the whole expr :)
12:51	bdesham	ah, I know I've used (into {} ...) before but I forgot about it
12:51	bdesham	thanks all!
12:53	Iceland_jack	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a 3 :b 4 :c 5}] [k (* 2 v)]))
12:53	clojurebot	{:a 6, :c 10, :b 8}
12:56	jkkramer	there must be a clojurebot quip for that
12:56	jkkramer	~map-vals
12:56	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
13:08	jsabeaudry	what triggers the "Cool story bro." trolling?
13:08	TimMc	jsabeaudry: One of many "I don't have a factoid for that" responses.
13:08	gfredericks	I think it's just one of the things he says when he doesn't know what to say.
13:09	gfredericks	clojurebot: right?
13:09	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
13:09	jsabeaudry	hahahah love it
13:10	riddochc	Just did a brew install clojure; brew install leiningen at work. Wish me luck. ;)
13:16	antoineB	hello, i don't remmember well thread and java,
13:16	antoineB	i want to build a backgroup thread that do some work, then sleeps in an infinite loop
13:17	antoineB	need i just need Thread/sleep, or need i some extra instruction, to say to the scheduler that don't prorityze this thread?
13:17	riddochc	antoineB: look at futures.
13:18	antoineB	the thread run indefinitly, so its not a future case
13:18	riddochc	Er, sorry, not futures, I don't know what I'm talking about. ;)
13:18	AtKaaZ	antoineB: (.start (Thread. #(do (println 1) (Thread/sleep 1000))))
13:18	riddochc	I'm fairly sure clojure has what you're looking for built-in already.
13:19	nDuff	antoineB: there's a Timer/TimerTask in abstraction that Java has built in.
13:19	technomancy	nothing wrong with falling back to java for this
13:19	nDuff	antoineB: I have a little helper built around it -- if you're interested, I can find it.
13:19	AtKaaZ	nDuff, I'm interested
13:20	nDuff	https://gist.github.com/a7d911dc0df88c3c3c8f
13:21	antoineB	nDuff: super, thanks
13:22	nDuff	...actually, I left some helpers out of that. Revising...
13:23	riddochc	technomancy: nothing wrong with it, agreed… it's also good to know what's in the clojure ecosystem anyway.
13:24	riddochc	…To the degree that one finds practical. (I'm trying to learn from simple v. easy)
13:25	technomancy	riddochc: I just mean that Clojure explicitly doesn't bother implementing certain things when Java does an actually decent job of them
13:26	riddochc	Yeah. I just thought it's possible antoineB's could use something more specific.
13:26	nDuff	antoineB / AtKaaZ: Updated that with a helper for shutdown and an example.
13:26	riddochc	shrug
13:26	AtKaaZ	thanks nDuff, still trying to understand it xD
13:26	nDuff	AtKaaZ: Feel free to ask any questions.
13:28	AtKaaZ	nDuff: roger, for now I figured out I need to (import [java.util TimerTask Timer]) and define logger
13:29	nDuff	Ahh, right. Sorry 'bout that.
13:29	ohpauleez	lynaghk: ping
13:29	AtKaaZ	no need, I'm an abnormal (ie. newbie) clojure user :)
13:35	AtKaaZ	nDuff, that's pretty cool ! just tested it
13:36	jamii	This is confusing me - https://gist.github.com/3947508
13:36	jamii	Maybe something to do with classes being redefined?
13:37	AtKaaZ	if you do a (class ...) to each what's it say? I'd try it but I'm missing that lib
13:41	jamii	AtKaaZ: user> (class (pattern ?n))
13:41	jamii	strucjure.pattern.Bind
13:41	jamii	user> (class #strucjure.pattern.Bind{:symbol n})
13:41	jamii	strucjure.pattern.Bind
13:41	jamii	user> (= (class (pattern ?n)) (class #strucjure.pattern.Bind{:symbol n}))
13:41	jamii	false
13:41	jamii	Sorry, should have put that in the gist
13:43	dnolen	jamii: yeah if those aren't equal a problem w/ redef
13:44	jamii	dnolen: ok, I guess I'll just restart the repl
13:44	AtKaaZ	was there some flag that would make = also compare meta ?
13:51	AtKaaZ	could someone add an example here: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/print-meta
13:52	AtKaaZ	I tried to create an example in my repl, but it won't work
13:52	S11001001	AtKaaZ: paste example here
13:53	AtKaaZ	S11001001, I tried several, pasting one ##(binding [print-meta true] print meta)
13:53	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
13:53	AtKaaZ	,(meta (var meta))
13:53	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name meta, :arglists ([obj]), :added "1.0", :static true, ...}
13:54	S11001001	,(binding [print-meta true] (pr #'meta))
13:54	clojurebot	^{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name meta, :arglists ^{:line 196} ([obj]), :added "1.0", :static true, ...} #'clojure.core/meta
13:54	AtKaaZ	on nice, only with pr i see
13:54	S11001001	,(print "hi")
13:54	clojurebot	hi
13:55	S11001001	AtKaaZ: as you can see, print is utterly inappropriate for forms
13:55	AtKaaZ	thank you
13:55	S11001001	pr/print dichotomy is like write/display dichotomy in scheme, repr/str in python
13:55	rbxbx	Does Clojure provide any hooks/listeners/etc to trigger an action when a source file is loaded or reloaded ?
13:55	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: do you still develop and/or use radagast?
13:55	AtKaaZ	S11001001, I know none of those
13:56	rbxbx	Googling has failed me, but perhaps I've googled the wrong things.
13:57	S11001001	AtKaaZ: do you know any other languages with a generic print that prints strings in syntax suitable for string literals within that language?
13:58	AtKaaZ	S11001001, do you mean like prints "a" as "a" not a ?
13:59	nDuff	S11001001: bash has its printf %q
13:59	nDuff	(though with the paucity of data types there, that hardly counts)
13:59	TimMc	,(print "a\\b") ;; AtKaaZ
13:59	clojurebot	a\b
13:59	ohpauleez	dnolen: https://github.com/ohpauleez/core.logic/commit/1250ef7960540eae4d4c0412b1d157f172b3f61e
14:00	AtKaaZ	S11001001, are you referring to pr-like print functions?
14:00	ohpauleez	partial-map and easy unification ported
14:00	S11001001	AtKaaZ: yes
14:00	ohpauleez	Once I get it cleaned up, I'll give you the patch
14:00	dnolen	ohpauleez: that is awesome
14:00	AtKaaZ	S11001001, cause those were some big words for me haha, I don't think that I know any though
14:01	S11001001	Ok.
14:02	AtKaaZ	,(pr "a")
14:02	clojurebot	"a"
14:03	dnolen	ohpauleez: thanks, will definitely love to get that in the next 0.8.0 beta
14:03	ohpauleez	dnolen: I also have a ported clojure.pprint which I'll have a ticket and patch for on CLJS dev
14:03	dnolen	ohpauleez: rad
14:03	ohpauleez	definitely, I think I can get it together for you for the next beta - should be all cleaned up by tomorrow the latest
14:05	AtKaaZ	I'm curious to know the answer to rbxbx's question though, that reminds me of compile-files and possibly the fact that you can put code to be executed on reload in the ns
14:05	uvtc	I'm trying to get a simple Compojure + Hiccup app running, one which has two source files: src/test_app/{handler,views}.clj. However,
14:06	uvtc	I'm getting this exception: Parameter declaration hic-p/html5 should be a vector
14:07	rbxbx	AtKaaZ just leave the code bare in the file and it would run open being loaded is what you're suggesting?
14:07	uvtc	Here's the code:
14:07	uvtc	https://gist.github.com/3947728
14:07	AtKaaZ	rbxbx, something like that, I have a (println "loaded" ns) in my file
14:08	rbxbx	AtKaaZ hmm. That may work. Thanks :)
14:09	rbxbx	AtKaaZ: I was thinking about having the "listener" living outside that file, but maybe I'm just thinking about things wrong.
14:09	uvtc	Afaict, I'm passing hic-p/html5 just vectors...
14:10	AtKaaZ	rbxbx, i think you can do that too, but the trigger will happen by calling some code within the file that's being (re)loaded
14:10	AtKaaZ	nDuff, what is expected after the fn ? something like :key value on line 24
14:10	AtKaaZ	nDuff, I should say this: {:keys [exception-handler]}
14:10	rbxbx	ah
14:11	nDuff	AtKaaZ: That's an optional keyword argument, for if you want to provide your own exception handler rather than just sending it straight to log4j
14:12	AtKaaZ	log4j, that explains why I shouldn't have used java's Logger
14:12	jkkramer	uvtc: home-page is a defn without arguments. you want to add arguments or use plain def
14:13	uvtc	Oh my goodness.
14:13	patchwork	Anyone have any idea why suddenly my cheshire (latest, 4.0.3) can't find org.codehaus.jackson.smile.SmileFactory?
14:13	patchwork	It worked yesterday!
14:14	jkkramer	uvtc: I make that mistake regularly
14:14	AtKaaZ	rbxbx: I was thinking like (send agent reloaded) but you'd have to put this line in every namespace(aka clj file) that you want to trigger, wonder if there's a way to include that code and be executed for each file, maybe a macro of the (ns ...)
14:14	emezeske	uvtc: Totally unrelated to your problem, but did you know you can write [:div#header ...] instead of [:div {:id "header"} ...] ?
14:14	uvtc	jkkramer: thanks. I was staring right at that one without seeing it. :)
14:14	rbxbx	AtKaaZ that might start to get into dark magic though ;)
14:14	AtKaaZ	nDuff, I would provide the ex handler as the value ? in :key1 value
14:15	uvtc	emezeske: Right. Thanks.
14:20	nDuff	AtKaaZ: :exception-handler your-handler-here, yes.
14:22	AtKaaZ	nDuff, I didn't know how that destructuring worked, thanks
14:32	wingy	im trying to make a fn that is passed an XML map and returns the XML string
14:33	wingy	https://github.com/clojure/data.xml uses a FileWriter, I guess I need to use the java.io.StringWriter though
14:34	wingy	but I don't know how it works .. tried this https://www.refheap.com/paste/6105 without success .. could someone help out
14:34	rbxbx	wingy: can you just call (str map) ?
14:35	S11001001	wingy: you need to actually get the stuff you wrote into the stringwriter
14:35	emezeske	wingy: Did you see clojure.data.xml/emit-str ?
14:35	emezeske	wingy: https://github.com/clojure/data.xml/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/data/xml.clj#L340
14:35	wingy	rbxbx: but that wont give me a xml string
14:36	rbxbx	ah yes, emezeske's advice looks much better
14:41	wingy	that one seems to work only if i have created the xml data structure with xml/element
14:41	wingy	hmm
14:41	wingy	but perhaps that's what i want
14:42	wingy	i thought clojure map -> xml string .. but perhaps what i need to do is to create the clojure xml with xml/element like in the examples
14:46	jonasen	If I recur from a multimethod, is the call going through the dispatch function or is the recur target the same method?
14:47	AimHere	You could always test that
14:47	wingy	jonasen: i bet on the same function
14:48	AimHere	I know I'm going to!
14:49	hiredman	jonasen: the same method
14:50	jonasen	hiredman: ok, thanks. That explains my infinite loop :)
14:51	AtKaaZ	how can I say (if undefined(symbol) then return {:undef nil} else {:defined symbol}) but the entire if block fails if the symbol is undefined because of the {:defined symbol} part
14:52	jonasen	https://gist.github.com/3948008
14:52	bdesham	AtKaaZ: are you getting an exception? you could use (try ...) if so
14:53	wingy	jonasen: you dont have a exit strategy?
14:53	wingy	so it will run forever
14:53	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'loop*)
14:53	clojurebot	true
14:53	zerokarmaleft	z[ ] Transfer Higher One to BoA
14:53	AtKaaZ	bdesham, yes RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol, that might be a way indeed, I was hoping for another
14:53	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'recur)
14:53	clojurebot	true
14:54	wingy	jonasen: https://gist.github.com/3948018
14:54	wingy	try and see if it will run forever
14:54	AtKaaZ	bdesham, if I use that I could make the macros be functions... worth thinking about it
14:54	bdesham	AtKaaZ, under what conditions would you have something that might be undefined? (I can understand that something might be nil, but undefined?)
14:55	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, use &env to look up the symbol in the lexical environment and use resolve to check if it's in the dynamic environment?
14:55	AtKaaZ	bdesham, say some exception happens and some defs weren't reached, I might test that in another ns
14:56	jonasen	hiredman: Do you know why it's that way? It's not what I expected
14:56	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, &env?
14:56	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, in a macro, &env is a map where the keys are lexically defined symbols and the values are... just ignore those
14:57	hiredman	jonasen: it falls out of the implementation of recur and multimethods
14:57	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, ok cool I'll check that more
14:57	Sgeo	http://ideone.com/z6MTLx
15:00	AtKaaZ	wow
15:02	jonasen	hiredman: Ok, no more recur+multimethods for me then
15:03	jlewis	is there an obvious builtin that gives you a list of all of the suffixes of a list? e.g. '(1 2 3) -> '((1 2 3) (2 3) (3))
15:04	antares_	dakrone: hey
15:05	Sgeo	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/specials)
15:05	clojurebot	{deftype* #<DeftypeParser clojure.lang.Compiler$NewInstanceExpr$DeftypeParser@75d7d567>, new #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$NewExpr$Parser@3a2371c0>, quote #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$ConstantExpr$Parser@614951ff>, & nil, var #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$TheVarExpr$Parser@3a8ff4b0>, ...}
15:05	llasram	jlewis: ##(take-while seq (iterate rest '(1 2 3)))
15:05	lazybot	⇒ ((1 2 3) (2 3) (3))
15:05	Sgeo	,(-> (clojure.lang.Compiler/specials) keys)
15:05	clojurebot	(deftype* new quote & var ...)
15:06	Sgeo	,clojure.lang.Compiler/specials
15:06	clojurebot	{deftype* #<DeftypeParser clojure.lang.Compiler$NewInstanceExpr$DeftypeParser@75d7d567>, new #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$NewExpr$Parser@3a2371c0>, quote #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$ConstantExpr$Parser@614951ff>, & nil, var #<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$TheVarExpr$Parser@3a8ff4b0>, ...}
15:06	jlewis	thanks! just what i was trying to think of.
15:06	Sgeo	Hmm, why does parenthesizing not make it try to sue it as a function?
15:07	amalloy	,(macroexpand-1 '(clojure.lang.Compiler/specials))
15:07	clojurebot	(. clojure.lang.Compiler specials)
15:07	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, worked but looks like those were the keys
15:09	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, hmm? The values of &env are internal stuff that I don't understand
15:10	Sgeo	,clojure.lang.Compiler/SOURCE
15:10	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/source-path
15:10	Sgeo	,clojure.lang.Compiler/LOADER
15:10	clojurebot	#<Var: --unnamed-->
15:11	Sgeo	,clojure.lang.Compiler/NO_RECUR
15:11	clojurebot	#<Var: --unnamed-->
15:11	Sgeo	Hmm, I don't entirely understand the difference between Var.create() and Var.create(null(
15:11	Sgeo	* Var.create(null)
15:14	Sgeo	,(resolve '.toString)
15:14	clojurebot	nil
15:14	Sgeo	,(resolve 'to.String)
15:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: to.String>
15:15	Sgeo	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/resolveSymbol 'resolve)
15:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: resolveSymbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:15	Sgeo	o.O
15:16	Sgeo	,(. clojure.lang.Compiler (resolveSymbol 'resolve))
15:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: resolveSymbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:16	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, ah I meant about this: ,(-> (clojure.lang.Compiler/specials) keys)
15:17	AtKaaZ	can CompilerException be caught?
15:17	antares_	hm, what's the best way to check if a namespace is available?
15:17	amalloy	&(doc find-ns)
15:17	lazybot	⇒ "([sym]); Returns the namespace named by the symbol or nil if it doesn't exist."
15:30	antares_	amalloy: thanks
15:32	antares_	amalloy: wow, apparently there is something called compile-if
15:32	antares_	&(doc compile-if)
15:32	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: compile-if in this context
15:36	antares_	ok, it is defined clojure.reducers: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/reducers.clj#L37
15:39	hiredman	antares_: I don't think it is intended for general use, it was added to fill a need in reducers
15:39	antares_	hiredman: I know. I need to extend a protocol only if a library (clojure.data.json is available)
15:39	antares_	https://github.com/clojurewerkz/support/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/support/json.clj#L18-33
15:39	hiredman	and actually isn't great
15:40	hiredman	because it sets in stone at compile time (and reducers is aot compiled)
15:40	hiredman	antares_: I think I replied to your ml thread
15:40	hiredman	protocols create vars, you can check for the existence of the var
15:41	antares_	hiredman: what would the name of the var be for clojure.data.json/Write-JSON?
15:41	hiredman	antares_: open a repl and check?
15:43	hiredman	,(ns-publics clojure.core.protocols)
15:43	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.protocols, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:43	hiredman	,(ns-publics clojure.core.protocols)
15:43	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.protocols, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:43	hiredman	,(ns-publics 'clojure.core.protocols)
15:43	clojurebot	{emit-array-impls #'clojure.core.protocols/emit-array-impls, arr-impl #'clojure.core.protocols/arr-impl, InternalReduce #'clojure.core.protocols/InternalReduce, internal-reduce #'clojure.core.protocols/internal-reduce}
15:44	hiredman	,(for [[k _] (ns-publics 'clojure.core.protocols) :when (map? (deref k))] k)
15:44	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref>
15:44	hiredman	,(for [[_ k] (ns-publics 'clojure.core.protocols) :when (map? (deref k))] k)
15:44	clojurebot	(#'clojure.core.protocols/InternalReduce)
15:44	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
15:44	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
16:01	c-jay	hey :) is there anything like a language specification for clojure? or something similar?
16:03	wingy	is json or xml more popular for clojure apps?
16:03	dnolen	c-jay: there is not
16:04	c-jay	oh, realy? i was afraid of... i wasn't able to find anything...
16:04	c-jay	damn! ^^
16:04	c-jay	i would like to write a term paper about clojure. but i need a lang. spec. in order to get the language through the approval process
16:05	c-jay	however, thank you
16:05	antares_	hiredman: thanks, figured it out without checking for interfaces
16:06	emezeske	wingy: If you're choosing between json and xml, have you considered using clojure forms as a data exchange format? E.g. pr-str and read-string ?
16:07	antares_	wingy: I don't know a single person who uses XML without some legacy system requiring that
16:07	antares_	wingy: if you go with JSON, please use Cheshire and not clojure.data.json
16:08	wingy	antares_: why is that?
16:08	wingy	im using clojure.data.json atm
16:08	wingy	since it has clojure.data.xml as well
16:08	wingy	supervised by clojure team
16:08	antares_	wingy: because 0.2.0 is not compatible with 0.1.x, the entire public API has changed
16:08	wingy	emezeske: yeah ill use it between my frontend and backend
16:09	emezeske	wingy: Oh, this is for a public API?
16:09	antares_	wingy: cheshire is not likely to go through any breaking changes at 4.0, definitely not changes like clojure.data.json
16:09	tomoj	what the heck? in some code I have (reset! debug [f v (map f v) (class v)]) (I know, I know :(). later, (last @debug) is PersistentVector, and (let [[f v mapped] @debug] (= (map f v) mapped)) is false
16:09	wingy	emezeske: yeah .. also i am using services, some support xml, some json .. and i was curious about which one i would actually prefer on clojure land
16:09	antares_	wingy: I don't understand the clojure.data.xml argument. clojure.data.xml is not similar to clojure.data.json in any way.
16:10	antares_	besides the name
16:10	emezeske	wingy: These days I think most people prefer json over xml.
16:10	wingy	antares_: at least its from the same team
16:10	antares_	wingy: not the same team at all
16:10	wingy	oh :)
16:10	antares_	wingy: each has a maintainer and they probably barely speak to each other
16:10	antares_	wingy: clojure.data.json 0.2 was a breaking release to a widely used library, without ANY ahead warnings
16:10	wingy	antares_: so its just about the API changes?
16:10	wingy	ok
16:11	antares_	wingy: it is about ridiculous maintainership practices
16:11	wingy	i did a comparison before on speed and cheshire was speedier
16:11	antares_	and the CA process and general "clojure/core does not have to explain anything, it just does things and community sucks it up" philosophy
16:11	antares_	performance-wise, I don't think JSON serialization will be a major bottleneck
16:12	antares_	way back when cheshire was not extensible for custom data types
16:12	antares_	now it is, see cheshire.custom
16:13	wingy	antares_: he he did xml as well! :)
16:13	tomoj	the only explanation I can think of is that my persistent vector isn't persistent, which is.. probably wrong
16:15	wingy	would it make sense to support yaml and clojure data on my public API?
16:16	antares_	wingy: anyway, that's just my advice. Monger will have to somehow support all 3, currently supporting 2 is more painful than any other Clojure code I maintain. If I could, I'd drop clojure.data.json support completely but it is too late.
16:16	wingy	clojure data for clojure apps .. that would be cool .. its not that it requires a lot of coding
16:17	amalloy	tomoj: (= f #(do % (rand-int 10))) is another example
16:17	wingy	antares_: i am working against an abstraction util/read-json / util/write-json so i can just switch the under the hood implementation
16:18	wingy	a book taught me to work against abstractions, not implementations
16:18	wingy	for better maintainability
16:18	antares_	wingy: that's what we have, too: https://github.com/clojurewerkz/support/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/support/json.clj. Does that look pretty or easy to maintain to you?
16:19	wingy	antares_: why cant you drop clojure.data.json support?
16:19	ToBeReplaced	is (korma/sql-only (korma/select my-entity)) meant to return "SELECT \"my-entity\".* FROM \"my-entity\"?
16:19	antares_	wingy: because Monger has many users?
16:20	antares_	wingy: and I care about backwards compatibility?
16:20	ToBeReplaced	the docs make it look like it's supposed to return "SELECT * FROM my-entity" but that's not what i see when running the docs in the repl
16:20	wingy	antares_: is there something clojure.data.json is doing that cheshire can't do?
16:21	wingy	have i misunderstood .. you are using clojure.data.json under the hood in monger for parsing/stringifying json?
16:21	antares_	wingy: no. But it does not matter, people are not going to stop doing what they are doing and upgrade everything to Cheshire just because I removed it. They just won't upgrade Monger, ever.
16:21	antares_	wingy: no, just extending various JSON serializers to support mongodb types and Joda Time dates
16:22	Raynes	I'm not sure how I feel about the supporting multiple library thing.
16:22	Raynes	I'm a little concerned about what monger would look like if there were 10 highly used libraries for everything it does.
16:23	tomoj	amalloy: yeah
16:23	tomoj	but I replaced f with (constantly 42)
16:23	tomoj	problem persists
16:23	antares_	Raynes: I am not going to support multiple libraries for anything but JSON
16:23	Raynes	antares_: I was mostly poking fun.
16:23	tomoj	OH
16:23	tomoj	shift
16:23	tomoj	er, shit.
16:23	Raynes	<3
16:23	amalloy	tomoj: in that case something is changing the atom other than that reset. i don't think the behavior you describe is possible otherwise
16:24	tomoj	I had "map" bound to a map
16:24	dnolen	optional warnings on shadowing might be nice ...
16:26	tomoj	I started out with some simple function that just did an assoc, and was like "well, assoc shadows map, so I will too", then forgot when I later needed map. don't think I'll ever do that again..
16:26	amalloy	dnolen: the trouble is, most of the time i want to be allowed to shadow names in peace, and when i start having crazy problems like tomoj i wouldn't think of turning those warnings on
16:36	CR7	hello everyone
16:36	Raynes	cemerick: Did you see that tweet where the guy listened to our mostlylazy episode and it made I'm like MVS less? Mind blown.
16:36	CR7	can anyone tell something descriptive about clojure
16:36	dnolen	amalloy: yeah, still would be a good feature for a linter - sanity check before going down the debugging rabbit hole
16:39	emezeske	amalloy: You want to shadow names in peace? http://i.qkme.me/3rhmtt.jpg
16:40	emezeske	Clearly clippy is the answer.
16:42	amalloy	emezeske: i am so far disappointed by my search for "emacs clippy"
16:43	amalloy	there are a surprising number of articles on some vim clippy thing, though
16:43	emezeske	Vim clippy?
16:43	amalloy	http://www.geekzone.co.nz/foobar/5656
16:43	emezeske	hahahahah
16:47	antares_	Raynes: https://github.com/clojurewerkz/support/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/support/json.clj
16:48	antares_	Raynes: madness but it works after all
16:54	jweiss_	is there a clearer way to write (fn [& _] (foo)) (fn to ignore the arguments and call foo with no args). (constantly foo) doesn't quite work because that just returns foo, doesn't call it.
16:55	AtKaaZ	,#(#_%& foo)
16:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:55	jweiss_	that's clearer? :)
16:55	AtKaaZ	lol good point:D
16:56	jweiss_	shorter, yes :)
16:56	joegallo	jweiss_: i would do what you did
16:56	AtKaaZ	jweiss_: thing is that #_%& looks like a comment
16:56	jweiss_	AtKaaZ: i've never even seen that before
16:57	AtKaaZ	jweiss_, yeah the way your wrote that is clear enough imho
16:58	emezeske	jweiss_: If you're doing it a lot, you could always ##(defn ignore-args [f] (fn [& _] (f)))
16:58	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:58	emezeske	Well, lazybot's complaint notwithstanding, you get the picture
16:59	jweiss_	emezeske: yeah probably better as a macro (defmacro always-do [& body] `(fn [& _] ~@body))
17:00	emezeske	I'd keep it as a function, but that's just IMO
17:00	jweiss_	well, in general i might want to call foo with args, just not the ones passed into the outer fn
17:01	TimMc	(defn nary [f] (fn [& _] (f)))
17:01	TimMc	(nary foo)
17:02	gfredericks	(defn nary [f & args] (fn [& _] (apply f args)))
17:03	emezeske	I assumed that nary meant nullary
17:03	TimMc	gfredericks: Good call.
17:03	AtKaaZ	(fn [& ignore-all-args ] (foo))
17:03	gfredericks	(defn somary [f & args] (fn [& _] (apply f args)))
17:03	emezeske	lol
17:03	emezeske	otherary
17:03	gfredericks	ary
17:03	TimMc	arrr
17:03	gfredericks	varargical
17:03	emezeske	swapary has the advantage of being fun to say
17:05	AtKaaZ	lol gfredericks
17:05	antares_	If you are not happy about the clojure.data.json API changes, vote http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/DJSON-5 up
17:06	TimMc	"For libraries that rely on data.json the 0.2 release was a major unexpected breakage."
17:07	antares_	TimMc: you don't agree with that?
17:07	TimMc	Is there some reason I shouldn't find that amusing?
17:07	antares_	TimMc: I am not sure what is amusing. Maybe the grammar is, I don't give a shit, I am not a native English speaker.
17:08	TimMc	That's a pre-1.0 release. Of course it's going to break.
17:08	antares_	TimMc: but that's not how you maintain popular libraires
17:08	antares_	TimMc: that's too late to use lame excuses like that
17:08	technomancy	data.json is popular now? =)
17:08	antares_	the library has been around for what, a year?
17:08	TimMc	Well, the other things that's funny is that there was breakage on a minor version bump.
17:08	ivan	I grepped everything I use and found one instance of data.json in some tests
17:08	technomancy	aw hell, it's in the top 10 on clojuresphere
17:08	technomancy	that's just wrong
17:08	antares_	ivan: I know plenty of people using it
17:09	antares_	technomancy: more importantly, most of the changes were not necessary, like renaming c.d.j./json-str to /write-json
17:09	technomancy	◔_◔
17:09	technomancy	lame
17:09	antares_	and not providing a compatibility function that is deprecated
17:09	technomancy	why would you do that?
17:09	nDuff	shrug. Part of the point of naming something 0.x is to indicate that one reserves the right to make major changes at will.
17:09	technomancy	aliases are so easy to add
17:09	nDuff	There's only a promise of stability post-1.0
17:10	nDuff	relying on a pre-1.0 library is something one does at one's own risk.
17:10	antares_	nDuff: that's lame to say that for a 1 year old library that is supposed to be a contrib library
17:10	gfredericks	clojure breaks stuff all the time within 1.x
17:10	antares_	nDuff: the entire Clojure ecosystem beyond Lein and ClojureWerkz is 0.x or even 0.0.x
17:11	antares_	nDuff: it's just disrespectful to make breaking APi changes without any compatibility layer and not even ask on the mailing list
17:11	antares_	for a library that's in the top 10 on clojuresphere, at least
17:11	antares_	it's crazy that someone even has to explain this
17:11	TimMc	gfredericks: And that pisses me off. It should be Clojure v1, v2, v2.1, v3...
17:12	TimMc	At least in that case it's a well-known violation of semver.
17:12	gfredericks	I want pinball-based numbers. If anything changes there is a minimum of version += 500
17:12	nDuff	TimMc++ (re: semver being the Expected Thing)
17:13	emezeske	gfredericks: Is a major release like a pinball multiplier?
17:13	gfredericks	emezeske: sure!
17:13	emezeske	gfredericks: Forking is multiball.
17:13	technomancy	you can expect devs to track version numbers that don't make sense for the language itself, because you simply can't ignore clojure development
17:13	technomancy	the exception that proves the rule
17:18	TimMc	antares_: I'll still vote up, I'm just kind of baffled by both the maintainers and the users.
17:19	Raynes	I don't usually release 1.0.0s because I'm never really convinced of the stability of my libraries. ;)
17:20	Raynes	For example, conch.sh is super new and nobody has used it yet, but it is usable, I just don't know that it is stable enough for 1.0.0 and don't like doing beta alpha and RC releases for 100 years.
17:20	antares_	Raynes: there is life past 1.0, bro
17:21	antares_	it's called 2.0, 3.0, 4.0
17:21	TimMc	Raynes: It doesn't have to be stable, you're just making a statement about API changes.
17:21	Raynes	Yeah, but someone (you?) just pointed out that 1.0 is a promise of stability, antares_.
17:21	Raynes	I don't have that promise yet.
17:21	Raynes	nDuff, it looks like.
17:22	emezeske	Raynes: I think 1.0 means "stable API," e.g. function names won't be changing out from underneath you for a while
17:22	antares_	Raynes: it's a promise of things being reasonably complete and not breaking in any serious way before 2.0.
17:22	antares_	Raynes: but not forever
17:22	TimMc	"breaking" as in API, not as in bugs
17:22	antares_	right
17:22	emezeske	Raynes: I can't try to persuade you to go to 1.0, though -- lein-cljsbuild is still 0.2.x :P
17:22	brehaut	does lein still default to version 1.0.0 in new projects?
17:22	Raynes	Fair enough. I hate making those sorts of decisions.
17:23	Raynes	brehaut: 'still'? It never did?
17:23	brehaut	it totally did. with a -SNAPSHOT
17:23	Raynes	Really?
17:23	brehaut	really
17:23	Raynes	Far out.
17:23	Raynes	I doubt it.
17:23	Raynes	I'm not that ridiculous.
17:25	antares_	new projects should go to 1.0 when they are (mostly) complete as far as the initial scope goes, in my opinion
17:25	antares_	small libraries should be released as 1.0
17:25	antares_	because otherwise they will be on 0.0.1 forever
17:25	antares_	people are not comfortable using 0.0.1 stuff and it generally does not give you any idea bout the state of the project
17:26	antares_	given that most clojure libs are also not documented at all, it gives a very creepy impression of the community to some people
17:26	brehaut	Raynes: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.7.1/src/leiningen/new.clj#L24
17:26	TimMc	Yep, I should just go ahead and bump lein-otf to 1.0.
17:26	emezeske	You guys might have convinced me to bump lein-cljsbuild to 1.0
17:27	antares_	emezeske: do it. You can always go to 1.1 or 1.5 or 2.0 fairly quickly. Nothing wrong with that.
17:27	TimMc	technomancy: I am working on getting lein-otf to work on lein2... I'm adding in a profile and using it, but :main is being ignored.
17:27	Raynes	antares_: What people?
17:27	Raynes	If that's true, then 90% of Clojure libraries must never see use.
17:27	emezeske	antares_: I think I will. I haven't had to make any big public-facing changes for a while.
17:27	antares_	Raynes: many folks I know from both Java and Ruby felt very uneasy about 0.0.1 libraries without docs
17:27	TimMc	technomancy: the result being that the lein_otf.loader isn't AOT'd and included in the jar. :-( But at least I'm working on it.
17:28	TimMc	antares_: Lack of docs is a huge problem.
17:28	antares_	Raynes: even if those libraries were pretty good and stable in every sense of the word
17:28	Raynes	Sure you're not a statistician?
17:29	antares_	Raynes: I don't think joking about this is completely appropriate
17:29	Raynes	Do you know me?
17:30	emezeske	Joking is always appropriate! -- Me
17:30	Raynes	I don't think we've met, I'm Raynes.
17:30	antares_	sometimes I get the impression that the best and brightest in the Clojure community proactively want people to NOT use Clojure
17:30	doomlord	they want to keep it as a niche ?
17:30	brehaut	O_o
17:30	antares_	that's why they do stuff like clojure.data.json 0.2 or ignoring working on the docs
17:30	emezeske	antares_: Now that's just plain ridiculous
17:31	emezeske	"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
17:31	antares_	emezeske: yeah? then why esoteric bullshit like core.logic gets all kinds of attention and docs are neglected at massive scale?
17:31	Raynes	This is the second time in two weeks that you've summarized programming communities based on people you know during a conversation we've had, antares_. I just thought it was a little funny. I apologize if I offended you.
17:31	antares_	emezeske: or compatibility and ease of use are never a major topic of discussion?
17:31	emezeske	antares_: See above.
17:31	metellus	antares_: because writing docs is boring?
17:31	TimMc	antares_: People scratch their own itches.
17:31	brehaut	antares_: core.logic gets love because dnolen is super interested in logic programming and willing to pour his spare time into it
17:31	TimMc	Welcome to open source.
17:31	antares_	metellus: I disagree, writing docs is super fun
17:32	TimMc	Not for a lot of folks.
17:32	antares_	metellus: somehow in other ecosystems people end up having at least some docs
17:32	emezeske	antares_: Why would you attribute it to malice? You have no grounds for that at all. There are a thousand reasons that don't involve people trying to actively discourage new clojure users.
17:32	antares_	emezeske: I said "I get the impression"
17:32	antares_	not that it is necessary so
17:32	antares_	Raynes: no offense taken
17:33	antares_	TimMc: ok, then we know what this community values
17:33	antares_	and does not value
17:34	emezeske	antares_: I "get the impression" that you're making a lot of conjecture based on a relatively small sample set
17:34	antares_	and the picture (as far as clojure adoption and good experience for newcomers go) is pretty grim
17:34	scriptor	to be fair, you can't just say "welcome to open source" when other open source languages have pretty decent documentation, both for the core and for libs
17:34	Raynes	And here I thought Clojure was doing pretty well in the adoption area.
17:34	scriptor	is it?
17:34	pisketti_	antares_: I'm currently seeing a lot of Clojure adoption - at least here in Finland.
17:35	pisketti_	In commercial projects
17:35	antares_	emezeske: I've been around in this community for 1.5 years or so, maintain 20+ libraries, contribute almost all my spare time to clojure-doc.org and try to help with Lein. I think I kinda have seen enough to make such judgements.
17:35	brehaut	quick everyone, to the annecdote machine!
17:35	Raynes	We've got 400 more people in this channel than we did 2 years ago, tooling gets better every day, thought works moved Clojure to adopt in their thing people seem to care about...
17:35	antares_	pisketti_: yeah and those people are probably WTFing all day long for the first few weeks
17:35	antares_	pisketti_: not because of the language, just how much the docs are neglected and what development practices are used by some projects
17:35	pisketti_	I haven't been particlarly unhappy
17:36	Raynes	I've been here for… 3-4 years, maybe? And I disagree with everything you've said.
17:36	antares_	and at large, not many people care
17:36	antares_	because core.bullshit is so much more fun
17:36	pisketti_	antares_: Though things could be better but at least for me it hasn't been a huge issue
17:36	Raynes	You're not going to get far by insulting core.logic and dnolen.
17:36	Raynes	:\
17:37	antares_	pisketti_: nice. But I know many people who don't have a great time.
17:37	antares_	Raynes: I am not talking about core.logic. There are also core.other-exotic-things
17:37	Raynes	Also, what 'development practices' are the majority of Clojurians using that you find less than savory?
17:37	emezeske	antares_: You're right, people should... work on things they're not as passionate about, for some "greater good?"
17:37	emezeske	antares_: Good work gets done because people are having fun, or because of money
17:38	pisketti_	antares_: I hear you, but I agree with Raynes here in that it's no use blaming the brightest and most enthusiastic ppl.
17:39	scriptor	emezeske: for the good of the language you like, maybe?
17:39	antares_	emezeske: node.js (which I am not a fan of) author had made a decision to work on less fun stuff like a good HTTP client and a bunch of other protocol implementations very early on, in the standard package. All for it to be useful. It paid off as you can see.
17:39	pisketti_	antares_: If they wan't to use their free time to make libs and the whole community better, it's their right to choose what they contribute to
17:39	Raynes	Hey, all I can say is that I try pretty hard to write good libraries, contribute to existing ones, and even write some docs every now and again. It's the best I can do in the time I am allotted and if it isn't sufficient, I tried. And I don't have half the responsibilities of most of the people around here. I have plenty of respect for them because of that.
17:39	antares_	pisketti_: I am not blaming people, I am saying that the values of this community are aligned to almost prevent adoption
17:39	emezeske	antares_: "All for it to be useful." Is he some kind of monk? Or maybe he has fun being famous, or fun helping others, etc...?
17:39	dnolen	antares_: I wish core.logic got more love than it does! Including docs!
17:40	emezeske	scriptor: If you want the language to do good, and that's fun for you, great!
17:40	antares_	emezeske: he probably has fun being famous and seeing people use his projects. But also he wanted to make it all worthwhile.
17:40	scriptor	emezeske: it doesn't have to be fun, I meant that sometimes you might have to do something you're not passionate about so that the language you like to use might do better in the long run
17:41	antares_	emezeske: because if it does not get adopted, it means he has spent thousands of hours in vain, more or less
17:41	pisketti_	antares_: The thing with clojure libs is that you can usually take a quick look at the source and figure out what it does. That is not the case in many other languages
17:41	antares_	pisketti_: yeah? go tell that to a typical joe the programmer
17:42	scriptor	antares_: there's a difference between actively making it hard for clojure to spread and simply not helping it to spread in every way (ie. docs)
17:42	Raynes	brehaut wrote an XML-RPC library. He must have good values.
17:42	Raynes	Real good ones, even.
17:42	antares_	pisketti_: I can read the source but I HATE to do that. That's why clojurewerkz.org stuff is documented.
17:42	brehaut	haha
17:42	Raynes	That's the boringest shit ever.
17:42	brehaut	maybe i have a brain disease
17:42	antares_	(hate to read the source to figure out what should have been documented)
17:43	scriptor	relying on reading the implementation of a lib isn't a very good idea
17:43	Raynes	antares_: Is conch well documented?
17:43	ToBeReplaced	scriptor: that's the exact thing that's bothering me with clojure so far
17:43	pisketti_	antares_: As I said, things could be better and you are right in that it is important to maintain and improve the docs
17:43	ToBeReplaced	every single library i end up needing to read the source for
17:43	antares_	and to finally demonstrate what I am talking about, see what Unsessions are there suggested: https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/wiki/Clojure-conj-2012-Unsessions
17:44	antares_	again, highly esoteric stuff, besides running user groups and dojos
17:44	TimMc	pisketti_: ZenRobotics?
17:44	Raynes	antares_: Why not start a boring shit unsession then?
17:44	antares_	but no unsession on the docs, broken contribution process, sane maintenance practices
17:44	technomancy	antares_: relevance sells training =)
17:44	ToBeReplaced	which is great for me to learn, but holy cow it's annoying when it takes me 30 minutes to figure out things like how to pass the database connection through to execute a query
17:45	antares_	technomancy: that's what also puzzles me, they kinda heard of that "grow your market" thing, no?
17:45	AtKaaZ	ToBeReplaced for what lib?
17:45	antares_	ToBeReplaced: exactly!
17:45	brehaut	wait, so type checking and testing are no longer sane development practises‽
17:45	pisketti_	TimMc: You mean if I work there?
17:45	brehaut	someone better alert the haskell community double quick
17:46	ToBeReplaced	AtKaaZ: korma, heh...
17:46	TimMc	pisketti_: They're that one Clojure-using company in Finland, yeah?
17:46	pisketti_	No they aren't the only one. :)
17:46	scriptor	brehaut: I agree regarding testing, but will type checked clojure really see much adoption anytime soon?
17:46	TimMc	Cool.
17:47	AtKaaZ	lol it says: Korma is a domain specific language for Clojure that takes the pain out of working with your favorite RDBMS
17:47	brehaut	scriptor: i totally want to be able to type check my clojure code
17:47	gfredericks	+1
17:47	antares_	AtKaaZ: «…if you are the author of Korma»
17:47	ToBeReplaced	AtKaaZ: it's pretty slick... it's just i only wanted it to generate SQL, not to handle my database connections etc. etc., and i coudln't figure out how to rip it apart for a while
17:47	Raynes	antares_: You know, there was a whole meeting by contributors at last year's conference, right? And it wasn't an unsession or a scheduled session.
17:47	pisketti_	TimMc: I was just in a clojure event a couple of weeks ago (http://clojutre.org/) where a guy from ZenRobotics presented their stuff. Pretty impressive. :)
17:47	antares_	Raynes: I don't know, I haven't been there
17:47	brehaut	(inc gfredericks)
17:47	lazybot	⇒ 11
17:48	technomancy	Raynes: more or less a token effort; nothing changed
17:48	AtKaaZ	antares_: it's funny because it doesn't seem to do that according to ToBeReplaced's 30min spent...
17:48	Raynes	technomancy: And nothing would change because of an unsession either.
17:48	antares_	AtKaaZ: yup, it only takes the pain out of … if you are the author of that lib :)
17:48	Raynes	If people don't want to write docs, they wont.
17:48	AtKaaZ	antares_: oh I see what you mean haha
17:48	antares_	Raynes: somehow Python, PHP and JS communities pay attention to docs
17:49	antares_	and not highly esoteric programming languages topics
17:49	scriptor	and I doubt those who document projects in those languages do it because it's 'fun'
17:49	pisketti_	TimMc: I'm currently writing Clojure on my day job, but I'm pretty much the only one. I'm hoping to see it used more in the future.
17:49	antares_	anyway, I am growing convinced that long-term sustainability of a community depends on how many people are willing to do really boring work
17:49	TimMc	Living the dream.
17:50	Raynes	antares_: Highly esoteric things are a part of Clojure culture. You have to deal with that. People here enjoy those things. That isn't going to change.
17:50	scriptor	antares_: encouraging docs and working on esoteric programming topics are mutually exclusive, it's possible to encourage both
17:50	antares_	and not shit rainbows all the time
17:50	pisketti_	TimMc: How do you know ZenRobotics?
17:50	ToBeReplaced	antares_: that's a little unfair though b/c a lot of essential libs made their way into core in some way or another, at which point heavier documentation were required
17:50	TimMc	scriptor: +not
17:50	brehaut	scriptor: i think you mean orthoganal?
17:50	antares_	scriptor: they pretty much are, in practice. Values that a community has propagates.
17:50	TimMc	pisketti_: functionaljobs.com
17:50	scriptor	brehaut: can I work complect into it somewhere? :)
17:51	brehaut	scriptor: i hope so
17:51	antares_	Raynes: oh, sure. And that would be fine if practical things were not ignored. But they are.
17:51	Raynes	I didn't know things were in that bad a state of affairs.
17:52	brehaut	antares_: you know whats really going to encourage people to write boring code and docs? crapping on the efforts of those people who have already done so
17:52	dnolen	antares_: If we wanted to boring work we'd probably be writing in something else.
17:52	scriptor	clojurebot: bring up the badness state of clojure charts, please
17:52	clojurebot	clojure is making your sexp smile
17:52	Raynes	Yeah, I'm really offended by this whole debacle.
17:53	Raynes	I'm pretty close with these people that are currently being shat on. I've never seen them 'shit rainbows', but I have seem them work hard.
17:54	scriptor	nobody is saying they're not working hard
17:54	Raynes	Sure, on useless esoteric shitting rainbows kinda stuff.
17:54	ToBeReplaced	are there particular libraries that are missing more extensive documentation? i might be willing to donate some time, since i'll probably need to learn the in and outs anyway
17:54	scriptor	working hard on esoteric stuff is still working hard
17:55	scriptor	a todo list for various lib doc efforts would be kind of useful
17:55	antares_	I did not say that someone does or does not work hard
17:55	antares_	only that values of this community put esoteric stuff waaaay higher than documentation, backwards compatibility and ease of use for beginners
17:56	antares_	that's very problematic in my view, in the long run
17:56	antares_	you can't shit rainbows all the time. Sometimes you have to do boring, thankless work.
17:56	Raynes	Man.
17:56	antares_	otherwise beginners will never feel good when adopting your technology
17:57	antares_	no matter how many shiny toys there are
17:57	antares_	or great ideas
17:57	antares_	so the question is: do people in this community want it to grow?
17:57	Raynes	Let me know when you get your statue erected.
17:57	antares_	to repeat myself: I am sometimes convinced that they don't
17:57	dnolen	antares_: it will grow with or without. and it's nicer to just watch you do your thing and not hear you complain about it.
17:58	dnolen	antares_: which isn't to say complaining is bad - but you're singing the same song over and over again.
17:58	antares_	dnolen: yeah, the question is, would it be a tiny community of mostly hobbyists/dreamers or a sustainable community of people building real things
17:59	antares_	*will
17:59	brehaut	who says hobbiest and dreamers cant have a sustainable community‽
17:59	dnolen	antares_: I'd say it's already sustainable and growing at a healthy pace. seems like people really appreciate your contributions. at least as much as all this esoteric shit you keep talking about.
17:59	Raynes	I don't know, I'm 18 and hack Clojure for a living. I think we're doing pretty good on the building real things part.
18:00	antares_	dnolen: note that not many people complain about the docs, about poorly maintained libs, etc. How will things ever improve without such criticism?
18:00	brehaut	antares_: by actually doing something about it? other than talking?
18:00	Raynes	Maybe people don't complain because there is less of a problem than you seem to think there is?
18:00	scriptor	growing doesn't have to be binary, you might still have otherwise very good programmer Joe or good company Acme going for Scala or whatever because it's easier to pick up
18:00	scriptor	and at least seems more well-documented
18:00	antares_	Raynes: what % of Clojure/Conj attendies hack clojure for a living? compared to a Ruby, Python or Java conferences?
18:01	Raynes	I don't know, you seem to be pretty good at this stat thing.
18:01	ToBeReplaced	antares_: example libs that need better docs? i'll spend some time and bring the thunder
18:01	Raynes	You probably know more than I.
18:02	dnolen	antares_: comparing success against languages that are 15-20 years old ... seems unrealistic
18:02	scriptor	Raynes: to be fair, I don't think there might be many other 18 year olds working on clojure for a living
18:02	antares_	ToBeReplaced: Compojure, Noir and Ring are some very important projects that need better docs
18:02	scriptor	dnolen has a point, what were docs for python like in the mid 90s?
18:02	antares_	dnolen: of course, if you don't cut yourself some slack, who will
18:02	Raynes	He will likely mention node.js now.
18:03	pisketti_	antares_: Good job on clojure werkz. Hadn't heard about it before.
18:03	ToBeReplaced	Raynes: One notable point though is that even if you don't perceive a problem, the fact that someone thinks there is one suggests that there is... it means that there are at least some people who are turned off by documentation... whether or not that matters at this point in language development is another issue
18:03	amalloy	ring's documentation is a shining beacon of light
18:04	antares_	dnolen: I feel like the Clojure community at 5 years needs to stop making excuses like that
18:04	Raynes	I'm not arguing that there isn't a problem, of course, it's just that he dug his own hole with the last one so I hopped in.
18:05	antares_	just like it is a bit late to make excuses about "we are growing, our contrib process will change"
18:05	scriptor	emezeske: of course, until it is resolved entirely amicably with tangible progress, as all irc debates tend to
18:06	antares_	Raynes: if you don't like node.js, coffeescript or any other shiny young tech, take a look at Go. Way better docs than Clojure.
18:06	antares_	Raynes: ~3 years old
18:06	ToBeReplaced	antares_: i can't speak for Noir, and i'll agree that there are probably some areas where compojure could use some more detail, but I found ring pretty excellent; are there particular problem areas?
18:06	Raynes	emezeske: I don't think anyone besides antares_ is arguing. I'm mostly making fun of his arrogance.
18:06	scriptor	antares_: also corporate support
18:06	wingy	This line in my source code gives Invalid metho Code length error: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6112
18:06	Raynes	Which I should stop doing and go get real work done.
18:07	antares_	ToBeReplaced: Ring may be in good shape now, I haven't read its docs for a year or so. Compojure is what I hear questions about the most.
18:07	ToBeReplaced	antares_: i actually found that once i stopped looking at noir, it all made sense >> the extra level of abstraction was too complicated for me, and it all worked once i went from ground up with ring
18:07	wingy	related to https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/ZL_1t3Rm8I4 .. is there anything i can do to make clojure parse it?
18:07	emezeske	scriptor: :P
18:08	emezeske	Raynes: I like a good argument, in the "discussing opposing views" sense of the word
18:08	ToBeReplaced	antares_: i remember having some trouble when first looking at compojure because googled answers were not helpful >> compojure went from being a web framework to just a routing DSL >> i'm not sure how to fix that though?
18:08	emezeske	Raynes: Somehow it's also come to mean "just yelling at one another" though
18:10	antares_	ToBeReplaced: it is trivial to get a basic example working, what is hard is finding an example of something less obvious, like accessing a rarely used piece of request info
18:10	brehaut	antares_: that seems like quite a contrived complaint?
18:10	antares_	ToBeReplaced: some examples are just not there, that's all I am saying
18:10	antares_	brehaut: what specifically?
18:11	brehaut	antares_: compojure is a thin layer on ring. its all just ring handlers, so its trivial to get any request data
18:11	brehaut	and its always the same
18:11	antares_	brehaut: if you are about my Compojure docs comments, good docs cover all common and some uncommon use cases
18:11	antares_	brehaut: it does not matter, beginners need examples, period
18:11	antares_	brehaut: for experienced users, Compojure probably has just enough docs
18:12	antares_	but so is Clojure, if you are a long time user or programming languages aficionado
18:12	dnolen	antares_: what's I'm confused about it what isn't working for you. You made a docs site, people contribute, what's the problem?
18:12	antares_	the rest of the world does not find that sufficient or well presented (organized, explained, written in plain language)
18:13	antares_	dnolen: that problems such as docs or caring about backwards compatibility are such a low priority
18:13	antares_	dnolen: or rather, "not sexy", priority is the wrong word
18:13	antares_	dnolen: or maybe even "not respected"
18:13	antares_	Python community cares a great deal more about the docs
18:14	brehaut	and yet you keep refering to projects that respect backwards compat and have docs
18:14	antares_	and less about highly experimental things
18:14	ToBeReplaced	any thoughts on how to fix issues with outdated info? for example, at the end of the day in emacs, the only installations i needed were nrepl.el and clojure-mode... yet any google search and you'll find 50 things about swank-clojure, SLIME, etc... even on dev.clojure.org
18:14	antares_	brehaut: like Ring and Compojure?
18:14	brehaut	yes
18:14	antares_	brehaut: that's like 2 out of fucking 5000, dude
18:14	brehaut	you picked the examples, not me
18:14	antares_	brehaut: I did not, ToBeReplaced asked about some projects to look into
18:15	antares_	brehaut: if you think that overall Clojure projects care about docs and compatibility, go ask a Ruby developer with basic Clojure skills to glue together 4-5 randomly chosen libs from github
18:15	scriptor	ToBeReplaced: a big reason why technomancy is crusading against not writing another 'how to get started with clojure' blog post
18:16	antares_	it will be great luck if 3 of them even have installation instructions people can understand
18:16	nDuff	antares_: snerk. You suggest that a _Ruby_ developer should be the person to have sane expectations re: compatibility?
18:16	antares_	nDuff: I am talking about documentation right now
18:17	antares_	nDuff: for compatibility benchmark, Java is definitely a better community to compare against
18:17	ToBeReplaced	scriptor: yeah; blog posts are the wrong medium for a problem space that is rapidly evolving
18:17	antares_	nDuff: Clojure libraries documentation as seen by beginners (e.g. Ruby developers)
18:17	brehaut	in what planet is it a good idea for a new user to 'glue together' 'random' projects from git hub‽
18:18	antares_	brehaut: that will be just an experiment. Have you not seen people seriously confused by how to use a library because that library's README is useless?
18:18	gfredericks	brehaut: that's all programming is 98% of the time
18:18	scriptor	a beginner who wants to start a project that requires those libraries
18:18	antares_	like, completely useless, no even clear installation/dependency instructions?
18:18	wingy	running this line in the repl works fine: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6113 .. but in a file that is run it will give me error: Invalid method Code length 117308
18:18	ToBeReplaced	brehaut: uh oh... that's what i'm doing...
18:18	scriptor	by 'random' I think antares_ just meant any plain old clojure libs
18:18	wingy	if anyone knows what the problem is please shout
18:19	brehaut	ToBeReplaced: you chose libraries at random‽
18:19	ToBeReplaced	wingy: that's way too long of a line to make sense of :)
18:19	antares_	wingy: JVM methods have max lengh (in bytes)
18:19	ToBeReplaced	brehaut: maybe not random :)
18:19	wingy	ToBeReplaced: i'll have it formatted properly in my test
18:19	scriptor	brehaut: random in the "pick any library that a dev might need" not statistically random
18:19	antares_	wingy: literals are compiled down to sequential map updates, I guess
18:20	antares_	brehaut: dude you are way too focused on "random"
18:20	wingy	antares_: but i can run it on the repl
18:20	scriptor	antares_ is using the colloquial definition
18:20	wingy	guess the repl is not putting my code in a method
18:20	nDuff	Since when did Clojure libraries need installation instructions? Either it's in Clojars, or it's in Maven Central, or it isn't ready for use.
18:20	antares_	brehaut: go ask an experienced developer who is a Clojure n00b to use an average Clojure library
18:20	antares_	brehaut: that's very hard for them, there are usually no clear guidelines even for how to add a dependency
18:21	brehaut	wait
18:21	brehaut	so every library now has to provide basics on how to use the languages infrastructure?
18:21	brehaut	and the language?
18:21	antares_	brehaut: if you haven't seen that, I suggest that you hang out around here more.
18:21	brehaut	and all the dependancies?
18:21	antares_	brehaut: wow, you are more obtuse than I thought
18:21	brehaut	no im not
18:21	antares_	brehaut: not the language. Just how to get started with a damn thing.
18:21	brehaut	i dont expect every library to provide a whole cloth introduction to the language
18:22	antares_	brehaut: who said anything about introduction to the language?
18:22	antares_	ah, fuck it
18:22	brehaut	you are implying it
18:22	antares_	time to write some more clojure-doc.org
18:22	antares_	brehaut: I am not implying anything, maybe drink a coffee or two
18:22	brehaut	"no clear guidelines even for how to add a dependency"
18:23	wingy	antares_: http://www.coderanch.com/t/482213/java/java/fix-java-method-size-limit no way to fix this :(
18:23	brehaut	thats a language / infrastructure level concern
18:23	antares_	brehaut: yes, newbs sometimes need hand holding to even add a library as a dependency
18:23	antares_	brehaut: huh??
18:23	lazybot	antares_: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
18:23	wingy	but that is silly in clj .. how can i work with large maps then?
18:23	antares_	wingy: it's a JVM limitation
18:24	antares_	wingy: the issue is not a large map but a large map literal
18:24	wingy	antares_: but it gets read in the repl
18:24	antares_	wingy: or functions with a very large number of locals
18:24	wingy	antares_: what exactly is a literal?
18:24	antares_	wingy: {…}
18:24	antares_	it is surprising that it works in the REPL
18:26	wingy	antares_: is there a work around so i can read my map in?
18:26	antares_	I've only hit this limit with a test that had a crazy number of locals
18:26	antares_	I've split it into several tests
18:27	wingy	but my map is pretty big .. how can i read it in
18:27	antares_	map literals can be split and merged, too
18:28	wingy	you suggest me using (merge) ?
18:29	antares_	brehaut: re: hobbyists and dreamers can be a sustainable community only in theory
18:29	antares_	wingy: yes, try it
18:36	wingy	the weird thing is that the repl works
18:36	wingy	perhaps that is because its not putting anything in a method
18:41	murphy607	hi
19:12	duck1123	What are people using for producing simple graphs and stats about their apps? I'm thinking about using something like statsd, but I'm wondering if there is a better clojure option. Something + Incanter, perhaps?
19:14	SegFaultAX	duck1123: Riemann is a thing.
19:14	hiredman	incanter's wrapper around jfree chart is kind of "meh"
19:14	hiredman	using jfreechart directly is not too bad
19:16	duck1123	I'm open to anything except for MicroStrategy (my day job / personal hell)
19:16	technomancy	dec on incanter's jfreechart wrapper
19:19	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/3949532 is what using jfreechart directly looks like for timeseries data
19:20	duck1123	That doesn't seem too bad. I currently don't have any real stats logging in this, but I decided I wanted a simple graph of posts per hour
19:20	duck1123	I might play with Riemann
19:20	emezeske	duck1123: Is there something you don't like about statsd?
19:21	SegFaultAX	Or is it just that it isn't written in Clojure?
19:21	hiredman	riemann and jfreechart are different things, jfreechart is just about creating charts, riemann is metrics gathering and charting I believe
19:21	duck1123	emezeske: I've only played with it a little bit and I liked it, I was just wondering if there was a better option
19:21	hiredman	actually it looks like riemann doesn't do charting, it just forwards data to grpahite
19:22	emezeske	duck1123: statsd/graphite are really quite nice
19:22	duck1123	right, I need both pieces
19:22	SegFaultAX	duck1123: There are lots of different options. Statsd is pretty standard. fnordmetric is also interesting.
19:22	wingy	how can i compare where 2 strings differ?
19:23	SegFaultAX	wingy: Diff?
19:23	wingy	SegFaultAX: yeah
19:23	duck1123	ok, no reason not to use statsd. Is there a good clojure wrapper, or am I going to have to write it?
19:23	emezeske	duck1123: There's a statsd wrapper for every language ever :P
19:23	duck1123	I played with the java api for a second
19:23	emezeske	duck1123: https://github.com/pyr/clj-statsd
19:24	SegFaultAX	There's also an implementation of statsd itself in Clojure.
19:24	SegFaultAX	Dunno if it's any good.
19:24	duck1123	excelent, then I'll just work on getting graphite up and running
19:25	SegFaultAX	emezeske: Js hate, if I had to guess.
19:25	hiredman	what is there not to hate
19:25	SegFaultAX	hiredman: About statsd or about javascript?
19:26	hiredman	javascript and node.js
19:26	emezeske	I'm not a JS or node.js fan, but I _am_ a fan of code that is already written/tested :)
19:26	SegFaultAX	hiredman: Nothing. In my opinion, javascript is a shitty language and a ridiculous choice for server-side development.
19:27	SegFaultAX	emezeske: Statsd isn't terribly complicated. Re-implementing it is not that difficult.
19:28	emezeske	SegFaultAX: My point is that the original version is already implemented, and tested by lots and lots of people
19:28	emezeske	SegFaultAX: Any small amount of implementation is more than zero
19:28	duck1123	perhaps for a proof of concept
19:28	SegFaultAX	emezeske: A fair point. My second argument for why people re-implemented it is they don't want to introduce node.js in their stack.
19:28	hiredman	"this python service cannot handle all these connections, let's write a service in js to put in front of it"
19:28	SegFaultAX	emezeske: Which is completely reasonable.
19:29	emezeske	SegFaultAX: Yeah.
19:30	emezeske	hiredman: Surprisingly, statsd performs like a champ. But yeah, why the hell didn't they just patch graphite?
19:30	SegFaultAX	Graphite isn't the only backend for statsd
19:30	SegFaultAX	Statsd is just an aggregator.
19:31	duck1123	I'll probably end up writing my own consumer for the statsd data
19:31	emezeske	SegFaultAX: Well, statsd originally scratched the graphite itch at etsy, right?
19:31	emezeske	Aaaaanyway...
19:31	emezeske	It's not worth discussing... We've already typed more lines of chat than statsd has lines of code :P
19:32	SegFaultAX	emezeske: It scratched the "make analytics easier to deploy" itch. Dunno if they wanted graphite specifically or if that was just the best option at the time and so became the default backend.
19:33	wingy	i really can't figure out why these 2 lines aren't identical https://www.refheap.com/paste/6117
19:35	AdmiralBumbleBee	us_name us_login….
19:35	AdmiralBumbleBee	compared to us_name,us_login...
19:35	AdmiralBumbleBee	it's a string
19:35	wingy	ah
19:35	SegFaultAX	AdmiralBumbleBee beat me to it.
19:38	wingy	AdmiralBumbleBee: how did you check?
19:38	AdmiralBumbleBee	I used my eyes
19:38	AdmiralBumbleBee	it was immediately obvious to me
19:38	wingy	seriously
19:39	AdmiralBumbleBee	you're talking to someone who spends half the day debugging handwritten assembly
19:39	emezeske	wingy: You could always paste into two files and use a diff tool
19:39	wingy	emezeske: i did i thought diff was checking line by line and those were single lines
19:40	SegFaultAX	Byte-wise diff is supported by many diff tools.
19:41	emezeske	wingy: vimdiff highlights differences on the same line in color, I assume other diff tools can do the same (tkdiff, meld, etc)
19:46	wingy	emezeske: vimdiff was a great tool .. now they are identical
19:46	wingy	are you using vim and not emacs?
19:47	emezeske	wingy: Yep.
20:16	thorbjornDX	can I use defmethod inside of a macro?
20:17	hiredman	I'm not going to stop you
20:17	thorbjornDX	hiredman: ok :)
20:18	thorbjornDX	hiredman: I'll rephrase. Are there any gotchas to using def/defmulti/defmethod within a macro? I haven't used them as of yet.
20:19	hiredman	it depends on what you mean by "using"
20:21	thorbjornDX	hiredman: I'd like to make a macro that takes a multimethod symbol, and some vector or map. The macro should create multimethods using the keys/vals I pass in. Let me whip up a paste
20:23	hiredman	thorbjornDX: by "create multimethods" you mean "return a datastructure that creates multimethods when evaluated" ?
20:24	thorbjornDX	hiredman: yes, I believe so. Here is the code that I'd like to generate in a macro: http://pastebin.com/2xwNwwWp
20:25	hiredman	go ahead
20:33	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: did you need any more help with that macro? there's no conceptual reason it can't be done.
20:40	frawr	Hi, is there an easy way to sum a list of lists? ((1 2 3) (5 7 9)) to (6 9 12)
20:40	gfredericks	map +
20:40	gfredericks	,(map + [1 2 3] [5 7 9])
20:40	clojurebot	(6 9 12)
20:41	gfredericks	,(apply map + [[1 2 3] [5 7 9]])
20:41	clojurebot	(6 9 12)
20:41	gfredericks	either way depending on if you have separate references to them or not
20:42	frawr	(apply map + (70 60 59 255) (69 55 54 255) (66 48 46 255) (70 56 56 255) (67 53 52 255) (65 47 45 255) (68 52 53 255) (66 50 50 255) (65 47 47 255))
20:42	frawr	erh
20:42	frawr	(apply map + (70 60 59 255) (69 55 54 255) (66 48 46 255) (70 56 56 255) (67 53 52 255) (65 47 45 255) (68 52 53 255) (66 50 50 255) (65 47 47 255))
20:42	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: I would appreciate some help. http://pastebin.com/9tn2GHjQ is what I have so far. macros + syntax quote + quote aren't quite second nature to me yet, hence the println
20:43	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: don't you want the name of the function as a parameter too?
20:44	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: are you looking for help with writing macros or just trying to get this done?
20:44	frawr	Ah, I need to convert them to vectors first
20:44	gfredericks	frawr: no you don't
20:44	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: I'd prefer a grasp of the basics first
20:44	gfredericks	frawr: you can enter vectors in the code to avoid quoting the lists, but you definitely don't need to convert to vectors at runtime
20:44	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: ah, yes. The function name should be a second arg (in my case it's just a keyword)
20:45	frawr	Ooh, I see the problem, I copied the dataset, and then used the list as functioncalls
20:45	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: you're saying it's the same as propname?
20:45	gfredericks	frawr: yep; common confusion
20:45	frawr	thnx
20:46	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: one handy macro tip is that you can play with backquote outside of a macro definition
20:46	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: oh, sorry. (defprop foo multifnaccessor mapofkvsfordefmethod)
20:46	gfredericks	,(let [fn-name 'tompkins] `(do (defmulti ~fn-name [a b c] (+ 1 2 3))))
20:46	clojurebot	(do (clojure.core/defmulti tompkins [sandbox/a sandbox/b sandbox/c] (clojure.core/+ 1 2 3)))
20:47	gfredericks	so you can mess around with backquote until you can figure out how to generate the code you want, and then just stick that in the macro body
20:47	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: awesome, thanks for the tip
20:47	frawr	works, thnx!
20:50	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: you can also play with passing the output of backquote to eval to verify that it works
20:51	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: ok. Another question, do I have to quote symbols that I pass in to a macro? Or will the macro suppress evaluation
20:51	gfredericks	symbols such as your function name?
20:51	thorbjornDX	correct
20:52	gfredericks	,(let [fn-name 'foo] `(def ~foo [] nil))
20:52	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:52	gfredericks	bag
20:52	gfredericks	&(let [fn-name 'foo] `(def ~foo [] nil))
20:52	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
20:52	gfredericks	geez
20:52	gfredericks	&(let [fn-name 'foo] `(don't-def ~foo [] nil))
20:52	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
20:52	gfredericks	oh right
20:52	gfredericks	&(let [fn-name 'foo] `(don't-def ~fn-name [] nil))
20:52	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/don't-def foo [] nil)
20:52	gfredericks	phew
20:53	gfredericks	okay so I found it difficult to consider how to verbally eanswer you, so I hope the demo helped?
20:53	thorbjornDX	I believe so.
20:53	gfredericks	you have the symbol at macro-runtime, so it's a piece of data
20:54	gfredericks	you're just inserting it into the code-data-structure
20:54	thorbjornDX	~ just puts in namespace qualification?
20:54	clojurebot	underscores in namespaces is a bad idea
20:54	gfredericks	no
20:54	gfredericks	~ unquotes
20:54	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:54	gfredericks	clojurebot: botsmack
20:54	clojurebot	botsmack is headdesk
20:54	thorbjornDX	ah, I see
20:54	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: notice that the foo symbol went through without qualification
20:54	gfredericks	everything else got qualified
20:54	gfredericks	,`qualify-this
20:54	clojurebot	sandbox/qualify-this
20:55	unnali	,`~'not-this-thanks
20:55	clojurebot	not-this-thanks
20:55	duck1123	thorbjornDX: I have a few macros here that define multimethods https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/sections.clj
20:55	duck1123	if that helps
20:55	thorbjornDX	duck1123: it will, thank you
20:56	thorbjornDX	duck1123: is the [name# name] thing a convention?
20:56	gfredericks	no
20:56	gfredericks	,`foo#
20:56	clojurebot	foo__103__auto__
20:56	duck1123	also https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/filters.clj
20:56	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: ah, okay.
20:56	duck1123	I did that only so I wouldn't eval it more than once
20:57	gfredericks	when you introduce locals inside a backquote, suffixing # will 1) prevent qualification and 2) add gensym bits so that you don't worry about shadowing other locals
20:57	gfredericks	it also makes sure that multiple references to foo# in the same backquote expand to the same thing
20:57	gfredericks	so you'll need that when you do function args for your multimethod
20:58	gfredericks	,`(fn [a# b#] (+ a# (inc b#)))
20:58	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [a__130__auto__ b__131__auto__] (clojure.core/+ a__130__auto__ (clojure.core/inc b__131__auto__)))
20:58	thorbjornDX	okay. I can imagine some code where this could come up, but I don't think I'm quite up to writing it yet :)
20:59	amalloy	duck1123: the use of # at https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/sections.clj#L65 is nonsense, don't encourage anyone to use it
20:59	thorbjornDX	gfredericks: duck1123: thanks for your help. I have to turn off my brain for the night.
21:00	gfredericks	thorbjornDX: oh sorry I didn't actually look at duck1123's code; amalloy is right
21:00	duck1123	I was wondering if that was overkill
21:00	gfredericks	I mean I stand by everything I said but what he's doing is different
21:00	amalloy	duck1123: it's not overkill, it's just pointless. name# has no special significance outside of a syntax-quote; you're just creating a new variable called name#
21:01	amalloy	foo# outside a syntax-quote is almost always a mistake. (one that won't hurt anything except confuse readers)
21:01	duck1123	now that I'm looking at it, I see your point
21:01	duck1123	I wrote this some time ago
21:02	Khaoz	i'm reading the Clojure Programmin book and through pages 72-75 it's presented more concepts about hof
21:02	Khaoz	but i cant get the point on returning functions from functions instead of defining functions and then using partial
21:03	gfredericks	Khaoz: you can't get the point like you don't know why it would ever be useful?
21:03	Khaoz	yep
21:03	Khaoz	at last in that example
21:03	gfredericks	it might be a bad example
21:04	gfredericks	not everything is easily done with partial
21:04	Khaoz	i dont think that is a bad example, just a simple one
21:04	akhudek	ring and enlive are both good examples of this
21:04	akhudek	ring might be the easiest though
21:05	Khaoz	i will go forward some pages to get more into the clojure concepts
21:05	Khaoz	then i will take a look at the ring code
21:06	akhudek	look at the ring middleware in particular
21:18	hyPiRion	Khaoz: One interesting example would, for instance, be some sort of rule compiler.
21:19	hyPiRion	You have a lot of rules, and send it to some sort of "compiler function". You get a function back, and can use that one for, well, rule stuff.
21:20	Khaoz	i will try to translate the examples on book to "normal" functions to see what kind of difficult i will have
22:19	john2x	hi. i'm getting something weird in my repl.. Integer/parseInt returns "Unable to find static field", but I can autocomplete it when hitting TAB. (using lein2)
22:19	john2x	not just parseInt, all static methods
22:19	Raynes	john2x: If you're not calling it, it is looking it up as a static field and not a method.
22:19	Raynes	&Integer/parseInt
22:19	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: parseInt in class java.lang.Integer
22:19	Raynes	&(Integer/parseInt "1")
22:19	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:20	Raynes	Java methods aren't first class.
22:20	john2x	ohh ok. thanks!
22:21	john2x	so I can't use them in map?
22:21	unnali	john2x: not directly, but you can use ##(map #(Integer/parseInt %) ["1" "2" "3"]) I guess?
22:21	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
22:22	john2x	ah yes, that'll do. thanks guys
22:23	Sgeo	,(Integer/parseInt "not a number")
22:23	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "not a number">
22:24	Raynes	&(Long. "1")
22:24	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:24	Raynes	john2x: ^ Also works.
22:24	Raynes	Just for kicks.
22:29	jcromartie	is there a good way to reload a namespace and change the dispatch fn of a multimethod?
22:29	jcromartie	looks like it "sticks"
22:35	cmajor7	what is the way to catch the "click/mousedown" event on TD in clojurescript?
22:35	cmajor7	*using jquery
22:35	unnali	on TD?
22:35	cmajor7	table cell
22:36	unnali	oh, <td>
22:36	cmajor7	yea
22:36	unnali	the same as for regular jQuery I'd imagine?
22:36	cmajor7	can't seem to get clojurescript syntax for it..
22:36	cmajor7	to work
22:36	unnali	what have you tried?
22:38	cmajor7	(jq/on (js/jQuery "X") :click (fn [e] ….), where tried for X: "td", "#table-id tr td", ".td-class", "#table-id>tr>td", etc...
22:38	cmajor7	*jq is js/jQuery
22:38	cmajor7	sorry: jq is "jayq.core"
22:39	unnali	uh...
22:39	unnali	lemme look up on jayq
22:40	cmajor7	well. I tried (.on …) from jquery itself as well
22:40	unnali	that looks like it should be okay.
22:40	unnali	so should that, since that's all jayq.core/on does!: https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq/blob/master/src/jayq/core.cljs#L221
22:40	unnali	have you tried inspecting the compiled JS?
22:40	cmajor7	no, good idea.. let me pull it up
22:42	unnali	all the examples I see online don't have any direct invocation of "on", not sure what's the deal
22:43	brehaut	most of the standard jquery event handler methods (click, mousedown etc) are just shortcuts for one of on("click"… ) or bind("click"…) etc
22:46	unnali	brehaut: I mean jayq.core/on, I should be clear.
22:47	brehaut	i have no idea about jayq
22:47	cmajor7	jayq.core.on.call(null,jQuery("#table-class tr td"),"\uFDD0'mousedown",(function (e){…}
22:48	cmajor7	if I put another element. e.g. some div instead of "#table-class tr td", it does work
22:48	cmajor7	the problem seems to be <td> itself..
22:48	unnali	that \uFDD0' is a bit odd…
22:48	cmajor7	*to get to it, so it reacts to click/mousedown
22:48	cmajor7	it is ":mousedown"
22:49	cmajor7	it does work for e.g. "<div>"
22:49	unnali	are you sure that's a normal :? anyway, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work, that's a jQuery/DOM thing then.
22:50	cmajor7	let's say it is, then how to get a particular <td> to "click"?
22:51	unnali	no idea, some jQ/DOM intricacy I guess as to why it wouldn't click in the first place.
22:51	unnali	I'd suggest messing around with jsfiddle or so
22:52	unnali	it works for me?
22:52	unnali	http://jsfiddle.net/A3thz/
22:52	unnali	13:41 < cmajor7> \| jayq.core.on.call(null,jQuery("#table-class tr td"),"\uFDD0'mousedown",(function (e){…}
22:52	unnali	#table-class ?
22:52	unnali	shouldn't that be .table-class?
23:14	jcromartie	Playing with mutlimethod-based state machines with a simple "update" and "render" separation: https://gist.github.com/4ba56804cee48fc0e709
23:52	ambrosebs	I've just submitted my honours dissertation for marking "A Practical Optional Type System for Clojure" (corrections welcome) https://github.com/downloads/frenchy64/papers/paper.pdf
23:55	tomoj	how do you get a NullPointerException with an empty stack trace?
23:55	tomoj	I should've googled first