#clojure – 2012-10-22

2012-10-22

02:32	Sgeo	,(let [+ 5] (resolve '+))
02:32	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
02:32	Cubic	Hi! If I want to do something with side effects that depends on multiple refs, how do I get the values of the refs without risking inconsistency?
02:32	Sgeo	Not sure why I'd expect anything else to happen
02:38	Cubic	Nevermind, I just saw that dosync returns the last evaluated form
03:41	cmdrdats	Hey guys, I started putting together an app for refactoring clojure project and would appreciate some feedback: https://github.com/CmdrDats/ns-refactor
03:42	cmdrdats	basically just a readme for now, just want to get the goals fleshed out first
04:01	scottj	cmdrdats: not sure if this is out of your scope, clojure-refactoring's unthread, thread-first, thread-last, and extract-fn refactorings are pretty nice. I didn't seem them on your list.
04:01	ro_st	cmdrdats :-)
04:03	cmdrdats	scottj: i'll check it out
04:03	ro_st	anyone know how to use clojure.core/assert to conditionally compile code with clojurescript? i'm guessing some sort of macro?
04:03	cmdrdats	ro_st: o/
04:05	cmdrdats	scottj: ye, probably out of scope - I'm planning ns-refactor to be more of a large-scale refactoring tool, so not really an individual expression thing
04:18	Raynes	callen: I figured out the connection issue re: refheap.el. It was my setenv call in my init.el. Don't even ask how long it took me to track that down.
04:36	kral	namaste
04:42	antares_	Elastisch 1.0.2 is released: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2012/10/22/elastisch-1-dot-0-2-is-released/
04:45	doomlord	anyone here program in both haskell and clojure ?
04:45	Cubic	,(doc dosync)
04:45	clojurebot	"([& exprs]); Runs the exprs (in an implicit do) in a transaction that encompasses exprs and any nested calls. Starts a transaction if none is already running on this thread. Any uncaught exception will abort the transaction and flow out of dosync. The exprs may be run more than once, but any effects on Refs will be atomic."
04:46	Cubic	,(doc sync)
04:46	clojurebot	"([flags-ignored-for-now & body]); transaction-flags => TBD, pass nil for now Runs the exprs (in an implicit do) in a transaction that encompasses exprs and any nested calls. Starts a transaction if none is already running on this thread. Any uncaught exception will abort the transaction and flow out of sync. The exprs may be run more than once, but any effects on Refs will be atomic."
04:47	Cubic	Hm, neither says anything about returning a particular value. So my earlier observation of it returning the value of the last form isn't defined behavior? Or just an undocumented feature?
05:21	leoncamel	doomlord: I use both clojure and haskell in my toy projects. :)
05:22	doomlord	i keep oscillating between something else to learn..
05:22	doomlord	i like loads of the ideas in haskell but get put off by the record system;
05:23	shachaf	You should learn about lenses!
05:23	doomlord	i'm finding clojure much easier to get into; but i would much prefer something with the type inference of haskel
05:23	shachaf	Lenses = the future (maybe).
05:23	doomlord	clojures' ability to just throw datastructures together ad-hoc is very appealing to me
05:24	doomlord	lenses require 'template haskel' to implement?
05:25	doomlord	i'm lukewarm on the JVM aswell
05:25	lucian	jvm is a definite downside for me
05:25	doomlord	Will haskell's record system stay broken and just be patched over with 'lenses' ?
05:26	doomlord	how much is involved in using lenses
05:27	doomlord	the thing with clojure is... decent datatsructures appear to work and its very simple to use
05:29	doomlord	note that by "put off by record system" i dont mean any limitations of immutability, just the simple inability to define 2 datastructures with the same element name :)
06:16	shachaf	doomlord: Having unique accessor names does help type inference, you know. :-)
06:16	shachaf	f(x) = x.foo // what's the type of f?
06:17	doomlord	i'm not convinced its essential; it seems like an oversight and thats an excuse invented
06:17	shachaf	Yes, there are various ways it can be worked around.
06:17	shachaf	What's your proposal? :-)
06:21	doomlord	a waste of time me proposing fixes for haskell; peeps who work on the compiler will drive it
06:23	doomlord	in the above example, there is simply a constraint that f is a function of something that must support .foo
06:25	shachaf	Yes, that's one way of doing it.
06:25	shachaf	E.g. http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/04/how-urweb-records-work-and-what-it-might-mean-for-haskell/
06:25	doomlord	of course when i say 'simply', i've not personally implemented a type inferer :)
06:29	doomlord	i've been assuming that under the hood clojures literal maps can be turned into simple structs... perhaps i'm hoping too much
06:31	clgv	doomlord: depends on what you mean with "under the hood"
06:35	doomlord	if you make a {:foo ?:bar ? :baz ?} .. and other routines use :foo :bar :baz acessors - so long as they can be traced to always come from construction in the same form, does it boil down to "struct FooBarBaz {...} " and loads from offsets from the base of that...
06:36	doomlord	of course routines could get the same names from different structures.. perhaps it requires whole-program analysis to seperate out the cases where it can be infered simply
06:36	cemerick	doomlord: those are records
06:36	clgv	doomlord: defrecord can optimize access to its defined fields
06:36	cemerick	There is no automatic optimization where records are substituted for regular maps.
06:37	clgv	s/can optimize/optimizes/
06:37	lucian	doomlord: a regular map will be just a hashmap
06:38	doomlord	fair enough.
06:39	doomlord	do you have to declare references to the record types when they come into a function as arguments, or can it at least trace those ok
06:39	doomlord	(so long as the origin is always the record constructor)
06:40	clgv	doomlord: you can use it like a regular map when you want to access its values
06:40	mklappstuhl	hey... I'm looking for examples of clojure in the field (companies/products/...)
06:41	cemerick	doomlord: slot access is always mediated through the Associative and/or ILookup interfaces; "declarations" (called type hints in Clojure) are only ever useful to avoid interop reflection.
06:41	clgv	doomlord: e.g. (defrecord Foo [a b]) (let [f (Foo. 1 2)] (println (:a f) (:b f)))
06:44	doomlord	is there any difference between (:a f) and (f :a)
06:46	cemerick	Yes; :a is the function in the former, f is the function in the latter.
06:46	cemerick	:a always looks itself up in an arg passed to it; (f :a) will do whatever f is defined to do
06:50	mklappstuhl	anyone here who could point me to a list oif commercial clojure companies/projects?
06:57	wingy	how do one check what country an ip is bound to?
06:57	wingy	so i know what language to show
06:58	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: which language do you show for bilingual countries?
06:58	wingy	andrewmcveigh\|w: yeah no idea
06:58	wingy	suggestions how to handle locales?
06:59	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: Accept-Language headers?
06:59	wingy	probably a good idea
07:00	wingy	andrewmcveigh\|w: that one is coupled with the language the browser is using right?
07:01	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: yeah, I think so. Of course the browser must be set in the preffered language. Not sure if the OS does that.
07:01	wingy	seems like a smarter choice than checking on ip
07:03	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: let me tell you, it pisses me off no end that infer that I speak Dutch because I live in Brussels/Belgium.
07:03	wingy	yeah .. i let you chooce language .. but need to know what to display at first
07:03	wingy	Accept-Language
07:04	andrewmcveigh\|w	personally I'd go with that. Google do IP based lookup FWIW.
07:05	wingy	but as you said IP cant be mapped to a lang
07:07	andrewmcveigh\|w	no, it can't for non-natives, travellers, multi-lingual places. I guess many sites don't think that's a big enough group to matter.
07:08	wingy	i want it to be perfect .. so whatever their browser is showing i am using :)
07:08	wingy	that cannot be bad right :)
07:08	wingy	makes sense
07:08	andrewmcveigh\|w	That's my opinion.
07:09	wingy	i just hope that a browser using Vietnamese would send the correct Accept-Language header
07:09	andrewmcveigh\|w	If my browser shows I'm using US English, I want US English.
07:09	andrewmcveigh\|w	I think it's a standard... could be wrong. Not really looked into it in great detail.
07:09	wingy	I'll install Windows and use different languages for the whole OS and see what it sends out
07:10	wingy	or I can just do the same on my Mac :)
07:12	bordatoue`	>>
07:12	bordatoue`	hello could anyone tell me how to manage local .jar files in lein 2
07:14	bordatoue`	I am using lein 2 can't see ./lib directory ,
07:14	andrewmcveigh\|w	bordatoue`: I think the recommended way is to install to a maven repo, or if not possible install to your machines' local maven repo.
07:14	andrewmcveigh\|w	bordatoue`: lein 2 doesn't use ./lib - it uses the local maven repo
07:15	bordatoue`	andrewmcveigh : i don't have a local maven repo, why can't I just use lein as I had used lein version 1
07:16	andrewmcveigh\|w	bordatoue`: you can install jars locally using -> https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo
07:17	andrewmcveigh\|w	bordatoue`: I'm not sure of the motivations for the change, so I can't advise you on that.
07:17	bordatoue`	thanks, do you think lein 2 is easier than lein 1, it keeps getting complicated for me
07:19	andrewmcveigh\|w	personally, I prefer lein2 - it has enough functionality built-in so I don't have to use maven for some things.
07:20	andrewmcveigh\|w	not sure if it's easier though.
07:26	clgv	the motiviation seems to be to not have a copy of the deps in every project but only once in the maven repo
07:28	wingy	i am using a rest param in a function [foo & options] .. what is the idiomatic way to check if :details is specified in options
07:33	bordatoue	is there an equivalen of lein update in lein version 2
07:34	wingy	this was a long one
07:34	wingy	((fn [& options]
07:34	wingy	(= (filter #{:flag} options) '(:flag))) :flag)
07:35	wingy	,((fn [& options] (= (filter #{:flag} options) '(:flag))) :flag)
07:35	clojurebot	true
07:35	wingy	,((fn [& options] (= (filter #{:flag} options) '(:flag))) :no-flag)
07:35	clojurebot	false
07:35	wingy	i combined = and filter and #{} .. if there is a more idiomatic way let me know
07:36	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: you could use destructuring in the fn declaration (fn [& {:keys [flag]}] ...)
07:36	wingy	oh!
07:37	andrewmcveigh\|w	,((fn [& {:keys [f]}] f) :f 8)
07:37	clojurebot	8
07:38	AtKaaZ	that's pretty epic, I was just reading about that few minutes ago here: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/functions.html
07:38	AtKaaZ	with :syms and :strs too
07:39	bordatoue	could anyone tell me what is the command in lein version 2 to update dependencies
07:39	wingy	andrewmcveigh\|w: i cant get it to work .. isn't the rest params a sequence?
07:39	hyPiRion	,((fn [& {:keys [f] :or {f 5}}] f) :non-existing :f)
07:39	clojurebot	5
07:39	wingy	you are using :keys
07:40	wingy	,((fn [& {:keys [flag]}] flag) :flag)
07:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: :flag>
07:40	hyPiRion	Yeah, rest of the args must be k-v pairs.
07:40	andrewmcveigh\|w	,((fn [& {:keys [flag]}] flag) :flag true)
07:40	clojurebot	true
07:40	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& {:keys [flag] :or {flag nil}}] flag) :flag)
07:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: :flag>
07:41	AtKaaZ	it's like an incomplete map that way
07:42	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& {:keys [flag] :or {flag nil}}] flag) )
07:42	clojurebot	nil
07:42	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& {:keys [flag] :or {flag nil}}] flag) :a 1 :b 2 )
07:42	clojurebot	nil
07:42	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& {:keys [flag] :or {flag nil}}] flag) :a 1 :b 2 :flag 3)
07:42	clojurebot	3
07:42	wingy	there is no way to destructure a sequence since the rest params is a sequence
07:42	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& {:keys [flag] :or {flag nil}}] flag) :a 1 :b 2 :flag 3 :c)
07:42	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: :c>
07:43	andrewmcveigh\|w	you can destructure a sequence, but only by position/index (i think)
07:43	AtKaaZ	I mean, the number of params must be even
07:43	wingy	andrewmcveigh\|w: yeah just tried that
07:44	wingy	i should look at (require)
07:44	wingy	since it allows :reload :reload-all etc
07:44	andrewmcveigh\|w	,((fn [& [[flag]]] flag) [:flag 2 3])
07:44	clojurebot	:flag
07:46	hyPiRion	hm
07:49	hyPiRion	Well, now I learned something.
07:49	hyPiRion	,((fn [& [a b :as {:keys [f] :or {f 5}}]] [a b :f f]) :a 3)
07:49	clojurebot	[:a 3 :f 5]
07:50	hyPiRion	doesn't work the opposite way though.
07:51	wingy	so this one is my best shot?
07:51	wingy	,((fn [& options] (= (filter #{:flag} options) '(:flag))) :flag)
07:51	clojurebot	true
07:51	wingy	i believe you clojurebot
07:53	hyPiRion	wingy: it really depends on how the flags and so forth are set up.
07:54	hyPiRion	If you're only testing for existence of one element, then just doing (some #{:flag} opts) should be sufficient.
07:55	hyPiRion	Otherwise (empty? (reduce disj #{:set :of :flags} opts)) would be good, as it then wouldn't be order dependent.
07:57	wingy	hyPiRion: some was pretty good and concise
07:57	wingy	no need to use =
08:00	AtKaaZ	,(some #{:flag} {:flag 1 :a 1 :b 2})
08:00	clojurebot	nil
08:01	AtKaaZ	what am I missing here?
08:02	AtKaaZ	,(some #{:fred} '(:fred 1 2 3))
08:02	clojurebot	:fred
08:02	AtKaaZ	,(some #{:fred} {:fred 1 2 3})
08:02	clojurebot	nil
08:02	AtKaaZ	ok got it i guess:)
08:02	andrewmcveigh\|w	AtKaaZ: when you seq a map, it's not the same as a sequence
08:03	andrewmcveigh\|w	,(seq {:flag 1 :a2 3 4})
08:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
08:03	andrewmcveigh\|w	,(seq {:flag 1 :a 2 3 4})
08:03	clojurebot	([3 4] [:a 2] [:flag 1])
08:05	AtKaaZ	I just didn't know that opts was a seq instead of a map
08:05	andrewmcveigh\|w	I think it's a bit of a special case.
08:06	AtKaaZ	just trying to understand what hyPiRion said
08:06	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& options] (some #{:flag} options))) :flag)
08:06	clojurebot	nil
08:07	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& options] (some #{:flag} options)) :flag)
08:07	clojurebot	:flag
08:07	AtKaaZ	lol how did that not err?
08:08	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& options] (some #{:flag} options))) :flag
08:08	clojurebot	nil
08:08	mklappstuhl	anyone here who could point me to a list oif commercial clojure companies/projects?
08:08	AtKaaZ	oh i see, clojurebot does only first form
08:08	hyPiRion	Oh, right.
08:09	hyPiRion	AtKaaZ: I consider opts as a sequence, not a map. With a map, you'd prolly do (keys) or something.
08:09	AtKaaZ	,,((fn [& options] (boolean (some #{:flag} options))) :flag)
08:09	clojurebot	true
08:20	frawr	Hello, looking for some help on twitter-api http://github.com/adamwynne/twitter-api
08:23	wingy	how do i add a key/value pair to a Ring request so that the other middleware can use what i have added
08:23	wingy	i know how to add a key/value pair to the request map but then it just creates a new one, and the old request map is still used in the subsequent middlewares
08:24	wingy	oh of course i get it now
08:25	wingy	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/session.clj
08:56	wingy	is there a way to simplify this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6026
08:56	wingy	instead of fetch acount in a second line
08:58	edbond	wingy, I think you can't. It simple enough.
08:59	noidi	,(let [{{bar :bar} :foo} {:foo {:bar 123}}] bar)
09:00	clojurebot	123
09:00	noidi	,(let [{foo :foo} {:foo {:bar 123}}] foo)
09:00	clojurebot	{:bar 123}
09:01	noidi	so you can replace the variable name with another destructuring form
09:02	jcromartie	Does anybody know if there's a name or way to refer to the idea of separating your personal beliefs from understanding opposing views? E.g. understanding any point of view on different sides of an argument, no matter what your view is?
09:02	jcromartie	And conversely: when someone confuses explanation or understanding with justification or support?
09:03	noidi	wingy, I think this might work: (GET "/" {:keys [lang color], {account :account} session})
09:03	jcromartie	totally off-topic but I figure if any of the programming channels I frequent was home to an armchair philosopher, this would be it
09:03	noidi	or at least something like that
09:04	noidi	oopes, that should be {account :account} :session
09:04	noidi	-e
09:05	mpenet	jcromartie: being objective? as the opposite of subjective, maybe
09:05	AtKaaZ	jcromartie, maybe being objective? can't be it , too simple right?
09:06	jcromartie	I think it's "confusing explanation with excuse/justification"
09:06	jcromartie	yeah
09:06	AtKaaZ	misunderstanding?
09:06	noidi	wingy, and my last attempt after checking Compojure's destructuring docs :) (GET "/" [:as {:keys [lang color], {account :account} :session}] ...)
09:07	noidi	(not tested)
09:07	AtKaaZ	jcromartie, possible good read? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reasons-just-vs-expl/
09:08	wingy	noidi: doesn't make sense to me
09:09	wingy	noidi: but it worked :)
09:09	ro_st	wingy: clojuring instead of noding, i trust?
09:10	wingy	ro_st: huh?
09:10	wingy	noidi: thx
09:10	ro_st	using clojure instead of node.js, i trust?
09:10	ro_st	last time we spoke you were dithering
09:10	wingy	ro_st: yeah
09:10	wingy	ro_st: im back!
09:13	wingy	found clojure more logically correct, good data manipulation, fp, has datomic and light table, less hacky
09:15	AtKaaZ	jcromartie, unbiased? naah it would be too easy
09:17	wingy	noidi: (GET "/" [:as {:keys [lang color], {:keys [account]} :session}] ...)
09:17	wingy	even better :)
09:19	AtKaaZ	jcromartie: anyway I figure that is the job of an arbiter
09:19	Cheiron	Hi, I have a ref type that holds many maps and I would like to employ something like self expiring maps
09:19	Cheiron	time to live maps
09:23	andrewmcveigh\|w	wingy: I think you can do this (GET "/" {:keys [lang color] {:keys [account]} :session} ...) - if I'm reading it right. Is :session on the request map?
09:23	AtKaaZ	jcromartie, unbigoted ? impartial? ok I give up:)
09:23	wingy	andrewmcveigh\|w: yeah that is what i ended up doing
09:24	wingy	clj is so nice .. handling every detail
09:35	jcromartie	AtKaaZ: thanks anyway :) but I think you are on the right track
09:35	AtKaaZ	jcromartie: is it maybe the Scientific method?; or 'rationalizing' for what you said: "when someone confuses explanation or understanding with justification or support"
09:35	AtKaaZ	ok now I give up :D
09:36	jcromartie	for example: explaining the actions of terrorists is not justifying the actions of terrorists
09:36	zoldar	Cheiron: I don't know if it would suit your use case but maybe you could build something based on this: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/TTL
09:36	AtKaaZ	rationalizing the actions of terrorists?
09:37	AtKaaZ	oh wait, nvm:)
09:37	AtKaaZ	that's when you're justifying
09:38	AtKaaZ	too complex for my little brain to compute
09:39	Cheiron	zoldar: is it safe to use one of those types inside a ref type?
09:43	zoldar	Cheiron: from the looks of it, I don't see anything that would cause problems: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/cache.clj#L241
09:58	Cubic	Is sync/dosync guaranteed to return the value of the last evaluated form (it does that in 1.4 and probably in the earlier versions too, but is that guaranteed behavior)?
10:00	clgv	Cubic: yes, it is. an implicit do is mentioned in the docstring
10:01	AtKaaZ	,(dosync ((throw nil) 2))
10:01	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
10:01	AtKaaZ	,(dosync ((throw (Exception. "a")) 2))
10:01	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: a>
10:01	AtKaaZ	didn't return 2 =)
10:02	clgv	lol. because an exception happened. that is the same with clojure functions
10:02	AtKaaZ	,(dosync (map #(throw (Exception. "a")) '(1)) 2)
10:02	clojurebot	2
10:02	AtKaaZ	:)
10:02	Cubic	AtKaaZ: fair point, but I was more talking about something like (dosync [@a @b @c])
10:02	AtKaaZ	clgv, you have a point:)
10:03	clgv	Cubic: dosync in your example returns that vector
10:03	Cubic	,(doc dosync)
10:03	clojurebot	"([& exprs]); Runs the exprs (in an implicit do) in a transaction that encompasses exprs and any nested calls. Starts a transaction if none is already running on this thread. Any uncaught exception will abort the transaction and flow out of dosync. The exprs may be run more than once, but any effects on Refs will be atomic."
10:03	Cubic	It says it does an implicit do, but it doesn't say that the value of the do is returned.
10:04	Cubic	I mean I know it DOES that
10:04	clgv	Cubic: it wraps the expressions in an implicit do
10:04	AtKaaZ	,(do 1 2)
10:04	clojurebot	2
10:04	clgv	Cubic: and do is for side effects and returns the value of its last expression
10:04	AtKaaZ	I guess the fact that it acts like a do is implicit :D
10:05	Cubic	clgv: Maybe my lack of english skills is in the way here, but for me, wrapping in do could technically also mean ((do ,@stuff) nil)
10:05	clgv	AtKaaZ: thats through dosync -> sync -> fn -> do
10:06	clgv	;)
10:06	clgv	Cubic: thats only valid clojure if a function is returned from the do
10:06	Cubic	,(doc when)
10:06	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
10:07	clgv	Cubic: like in a lot of macros finally your expressions are put into `fn` or `fn*`
10:07	AtKaaZ_k	what's with irc failing :)
10:08	Cubic	I mean like that. Ok bad example because the do is bound to a condition, but for me the implicit do part only says that it does all the stuff you listed in that order, not that there's necessarily nothing else that happens afterwards.
10:10	clgv	Cubic: well read th `do` docstring
10:10	AtKaaZ	,(dosync)
10:10	clojurebot	nil
10:10	AtKaaZ	,(declare ghost)
10:10	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
10:11	Cubic	I know what do does, I just don't read "implicit do" as "there is an implicit do, and the value which it evaluates to will be returned". Maybe that's just me being silly though
10:13	AtKaaZ	implicits are evil
10:13	clgv	Cubic: well you cant repeat the do semntics on every function that uses it. saying that the given expressions are wrapped in a do, should suffice as a pointer
10:13	AtKaaZ	,(#(do &% nil) 1 2 3)
10:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:14	AtKaaZ	,(#(do %& nil) 1 2 3)
10:14	clojurebot	nil
10:15	AtKaaZ	,(#(do %&) 1 2 3)
10:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
10:17	clgv	AtKaaZ: lol what's your point with those?
10:17	AtKaaZ	failing to emulate do :)
10:18	AdmiralBumbleBee	emulating do using do?
10:18	AntelopeSalad	is this the #1 resource for clojure-related podcasts? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2758783/podcasts-for-clojurians
10:18	AtKaaZ	well on the second one, but the first one was meant to not return 3 lol
10:18	S11001001	AtKaaZ: not possible
10:19	AtKaaZ	S11001001, to emulate the special form do?
10:19	clgv	AtKaaZ: `do` is a special form, so it's very unlikely that you can do that... at least not exact
10:19	AtKaaZ	ok, trying...
10:20	AtKaaZ	does it unlazy the lazy seqs?
10:20	clgv	AtKaaZ: no.
10:21	AtKaaZ	can we destruct [& all] into "all except last" and "last" ?
10:21	clgv	(do (create-my-lazy-seq) 42) would create a lazy-seq and throw it away
10:22	AtKaaZ	without let?
10:24	AdmiralBumbleBee	droplast and last?
10:24	S11001001	AtKaaZ: no
10:24	AdmiralBumbleBee	you can't destructure without let
10:24	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& all] (let [xall (reverse (rest (reverse all))) last (first (reverse all))] (map #(eval %) xall) last)) (println 1) 2 3)
10:24	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
10:24	AtKaaZ	ah eval:)
10:24	AtKaaZ	thing is, println would get evaluated unless i make it a macro
10:24	AtKaaZ	evaluated before being passed
10:25	AdmiralBumbleBee	what are you trying to do?
10:25	AtKaaZ	emulate do :)
10:25	S11001001	AtKaaZ: that's the #1 reason you can't
10:25	AtKaaZ	S11001001 but then I make it a macro, I can?
10:25	S11001001	AtKaaZ: and if you were to have that, you would have...
10:25	AtKaaZ	that=as macro?
10:26	S11001001	AtKaaZ: do
10:26	AtKaaZ	I didn't understand
10:26	S11001001	AtKaaZ: try to implement do as a macro, without using core do or anything that provides implicit do (e.g. let)
10:27	AtKaaZ	eval?
10:27	clojurebot	eval is DENIED
10:27	AtKaaZ	lol
10:27	AtKaaZ	ok let me try
10:27	clgv	eval would work.
10:27	clgv	but why would you even try?
10:27	S11001001	clgv: no, you lose enclosing scope
10:27	AtKaaZ	like for xp
10:28	S11001001	AtKaaZ: I take it back, there's a function you can write that simulates do, with exactly the same semantics as do.
10:28	clgv	S11001001: ah right. for his trivial use cases it would work ;)
10:28	AtKaaZ	function?
10:28	clojurebot	function is <Chouser> there is one class per fn, one instance of it per closure
10:28	AtKaaZ	S11001001, what function is it?
10:28	AtKaaZ	S11001001, without evaluating my params beforehand?
10:29	clgv	AtKaaZ: there are more useful tasks for xp ;)
10:29	Kototama	I have a nasty bug with jayq.utils.clj->js, when I add a simple key to a map, the function doesn't work anymore http://paste2.org/p/2366957 Any ideas?
10:29	S11001001	it does eval your params beforehand, but that's not a phenomenon you can observe with a direct call, so you can implement do with it
10:29	AtKaaZ	wait, does do also eval the params beforehand? i wonder
10:29	Kototama	or it's a bug in clojurescript merge :-p
10:29	S11001001	(def lastarg [& args] (last args))
10:29	AtKaaZ	S11001001 oh thanks for that
10:30	S11001001	(defmacro do' [& forms] `(lastarg ~@forms))
10:31	AtKaaZ	,(butlast '(1 2 3))
10:31	clojurebot	(1 2)
10:32	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& all] (let [xall (butlast all) last (last all)] (map #(%) xall) last)) (println 1) 2 3)
10:32	clojurebot	1
10:32	clojurebot	3
10:32	S11001001	AtKaaZ: no
10:32	AtKaaZ	yep i fail:) lazy
10:32	AtKaaZ	no doall? ::D
10:33	S11001001	AtKaaZ: try it
10:34	AtKaaZ	,(class #())
10:34	clojurebot	sandbox$eval27$fn__28
10:34	AtKaaZ	I need something to can call either func or number :) not eval
10:35	AtKaaZ	maybe some if
10:35	S11001001	AtKaaZ: I don't know why you're doing any of it; lastarg is sufficient
10:35	frawr	Anyone here with some experience using twitter-api for their streaming api?
10:35	AtKaaZ	for this:
10:35	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& all] (let [xall (butlast all) last (last all)] (doall (map #(%) xall)) last)) #(println 1) 2 3)
10:35	clojurebot	1
10:35	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
10:35	AtKaaZ	,(#(2))
10:35	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
10:36	Cubic	clojure?
10:36	clojurebot	"[Clojure ...] feels like a general-purpose language beamed back from the near future."
10:36	S11001001	,(#(last %&) (println 1) 2 3)
10:36	clojurebot	1
10:36	clojurebot	3
10:37	AtKaaZ	,(#(last %&) #(println 1) 2 3)
10:37	clojurebot	3
10:37	jweiss	i've heard it's better to use "for" rather than map and fn. But what about when you want to have a fn of multiple args and consume multiple lists? seems like map is easier. or is there a simple way also with 'for'?
10:38	AdmiralBumbleBee	who says it's better to use for than map?!
10:38	S11001001	jweiss: "It's better to use map and fn than for; for is terrible." There, now you've heard it both ways
10:38	AdmiralBumbleBee	I've never heard that before
10:38	AdmiralBumbleBee	though I've heard the exact opposite many many times
10:39	jweiss	AdmiralBumbleBee: so there's no general consensus that (for [i mylist] ...) is preferred to (map (fn [x] ...) mylist) ?
10:40	jweiss	i know map is very straightforward when the function already exists, eg (map inc [1 2 3])
10:40	clgv	jweiss: they are both in clojure.core since they "shine" in different use cases
10:40	jweiss	so what i'm hearing is that map is the way to go when i have multiple lists?
10:40	AdmiralBumbleBee	jweiss: most clojure code I've seen uses map. the 4 clojure books I've read also highly prefer map
10:41	jweiss	AdmiralBumbleBee: map+fn?
10:41	AdmiralBumbleBee	jweiss: yes
10:41	AdmiralBumbleBee	in fact, it often seems that people try to figure out how to use map even when it doesn't make much sense
10:41	AdmiralBumbleBee	(incuding myself :))
10:41	jweiss	interesting, i don't know what "for" is for then :)
10:41	nDuff	shrug. There are places where for is the obvious thing.
10:41	AtKaaZ	,(#(let [a (last %&)] a) #(println 1))
10:41	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval177$fn__180 sandbox$eval177$fn__180@72f1f2f3>
10:41	jweiss	i suppose if you want to use :while or :when in there
10:41	nDuff	for lets you do :let [] within it.
10:42	AdmiralBumbleBee	for is useful certainly
10:42	AtKaaZ	,(#(let [a (last %&)] (a)) #(println 1))
10:42	clojurebot	1
10:42	AdmiralBumbleBee	but preferring `for` over `map` in general I would think is very very silly
10:42	clgv	jweiss: `for` is awesome if you have hierachic data to traverse ad/or constraints when to traverse a child collection
10:42	nDuff	nod; nesting is another case where for shines.
10:43	clgv	jweiss: e.g. (for [bs as :when (even? bs) b bs] (do-something-with b))
10:43	jweiss	i would guess for also doesn't add to the zillions of little classfiles i get when i make an uberjar
10:43	hyPiRion	,(for [a (range 4), b (range 4) :when (not= a b)] [a b]) ; also practical
10:44	clojurebot	([0 1] [0 2] [0 3] [1 0] [1 2] ...)
10:44	AtKaaZ	,(fn? #())
10:44	clojurebot	true
10:44	AtKaaZ	,(fn? 1)
10:44	clojurebot	false
10:44	clgv	jweiss: map shouldnt as well. only an (fn ...) inside it would.
10:45	jweiss	clgv: that is the case i'm referring to - when the function doesn't already exist
10:45	clgv	AtKaaZ: (ifn? #{})
10:45	clgv	(ifn? #{})&
10:45	AtKaaZ	thanks i'll try that after
10:45	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& all] (let [xall (butlast all) last2 (last all)] (doall (map #(let [a %] (if (fn? a) (a) a)) xall)) (last2))) #(println 1) #(do 2) #(do 3) 4 #(do 5))
10:45	clojurebot	1
10:45	clojurebot	5
10:45	clgv	jweiss: but thats not map's fault ;)
10:47	AtKaaZ	getting too ugly for a 1 liner
10:47	AtKaaZ	,,((fn [& all] (let [xall (butlast all) last2 (last all)] (doall (map #(let [a %] (if (ifn? a) (a) a)) xall)) (let [b last2] (if (ifn? b) (b) b)))) #(println 1) #(do 2) #(do 3) 4 5)
10:47	clojurebot	1
10:47	clojurebot	5
10:49	AtKaaZ	now without doall? lol
10:49	AtKaaZ	let's test is do is macro like
10:50	AtKaaZ	,(do #(println 1) (println 2) 3)
10:50	clojurebot	2
10:50	clojurebot	3
10:50	AtKaaZ	,(do (doall #(println 1)) (println 2) 3)
10:50	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: sandbox$eval133$fn__134>
10:50	AtKaaZ	,(do (doall (#(println 1))) (println 2) 3)
10:50	clojurebot	1
10:50	clojurebot	2
10:50	AdmiralBumbleBee	your one-liner is spanning 2 lines on my screen
10:50	clojurebot	3
10:50	AdmiralBumbleBee	and you also should have your own repl to try things in...
10:50	AtKaaZ	lol
10:51	AtKaaZ	AdmiralBumbleBee, I have that too
10:51	wingy	hate having to use (declare) because of the compiler is not smart enough
10:51	AtKaaZ	I'm doing most there, so imagine the fails
10:51	AdmiralBumbleBee	then there's no reason to be posting things that fail here I would think
10:52	AtKaaZ	,,((resolve (symbol "declare")) 'ghost)
10:52	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$declare>
10:52	AtKaaZ	AdmiralBumbleBee, except this time, I didn't know they would fail
10:52	antoineB	hello, i use proxy to implement some method of java object, but how to create new method for those object?
10:53	AdmiralBumbleBee	you would if you used your local repl :\|
10:53	AtKaaZ	AdmiralBumbleBee, I'm using it but not 100% of the time, but I get your point, less spam
10:55	lucian	i'm pretty sure the bots support privmsg
10:59	solussd	any monger users have any advice on how to switch to a 'test database' when running tests?
11:01	AtKaaZ	S11001001: ok this is it, emulated do: ##((fn i_do [& all] (let [xall (butlast all) last2 (last all)] (doall (map (fn [one] one) xall)) last2)) #(println 1) #(do 2) (println 3) 4 #(do 5))
11:01	lazybot	⇒ 3 #<sandbox7657$eval318244$fn__318253 sandbox7657$eval318244$fn__318253@225c31>
11:02	jlewis	is there a way to serialize a bunch of PersistentHashMaps that preserves their structural sharing?
11:02	AtKaaZ	S11001001, wait... lol your version is the one
11:02	AtKaaZ	S11001001, this one: #(last %&)
11:03	AtKaaZ	good thing I finally realized it
11:03	AtKaaZ	thanks and sorry for the spam, I'll be more considerate in the future
11:03	clgv	antoineB: thats only possible if you define an interface or protocol that contains the new methods
11:04	simonadameit	hi
11:04	clgv	antoineB: if you do not want that you have to use :gen-class instead of proxy
11:05	antoineB	ok thanks
11:08	clgv	jlewis: javas serialization should do that but adds additional overhead
11:08	Kototama	I have written a code that reproduce the error http://paste2.org/p/2367082 it's either an error in clojurescript merge or in jayq clj->js any ideas???
11:08	lazybot	Kototama: Oh, absolutely.
11:09	Kototama	hum here: http://paste2.org/p/2367089 the first line was missing
11:21	jlewis	clgv: that makes sense, because it's just a tree of objects... what if i want to serialize a PHM that shares with a pre-serialized set of PHMs?
11:22	jlewis	i suppose i'd have to deserialize the first set and link them somehow
11:24	clgv	jlewis: you can serialize the first PHM to string and for each derived PHM you only serialize the change operation to string (assoc, dissoc)
11:24	bordatoue	hello if I have a method say (str (.getVersionNo Instance)) , when i set warn on reflection is does say it cannot resolve the field of .getVersionNo, if .getVersionNo returns a int how do i specify this hint
11:24	clgv	jlewis: but you could also just serialize them all to string and compress that string.
11:25	jlewis	yes. what i'd really like to do, though, is something like the following...
11:25	clgv	jlewis: the last suggestion only reduces size. the read PHMs will not share anything
11:25	jlewis	take a PHM called a, and serialize it first
11:25	jlewis	some time in the future, take some new PHM based off of a called b, and serialize just the differences between a and b
11:25	jlewis	just like b is stored in memory as just the differences (more or less) from a
11:26	jlewis	i'm guessing this isn't straightforward
11:28	wingy	i just dragged another guy into clj :)
11:28	wingy	from node.js
11:29	bordatoue	is it possible to provide a hint without a binding
11:30	TimMc	bordatoue: WRT reflection hints, I believe so, yes.
11:30	TimMc	I'm not sure if primitive hints can be on arbitrary forms.
11:30	bordatoue	so if i have (str (.getVersionNo someInstance)) where do i add the hint
11:30	clgv	jlewis: you can use clojure.data/diff to find the differences (clojure 1.4.0+)
11:31	bordatoue	TimMc: say getVersionNo returns an int
11:31	mpenet	you need to hint your instance probably
11:32	mpenet	bordatoue: (str (.getVersionNo ^Something someInstance))
11:32	clgv	bordatoue: your reflection warning is due to "Instance" being of unknown type
11:32	bordatoue	mpenet: I have done something like this (str (.getVersionNo #^Integer myInstance)) but i still get the reflection warning
11:33	TimMc	FYI, #^ is old syntax.
11:33	clgv	bordatoue: you have to type hin the class that has the property/method "getVersionNo"
11:33	mpenet	bordatoue: you need to hint the type of your instance, not the return type of the method
11:35	bordatoue	TimMc: #^ obsolete
11:35	TimMc	bordatoue: Right, so use ^Foo instead of #^Foo
11:35	TimMc	not that it will make a difference here
11:36	bordatoue	clgv: it says in the warning message field can not be resolved not instance
11:36	clgv	bordatoue: yeah, the filed can only be resolved if the class of the instance is known
11:36	TimMc	bordatoue: import
11:36	clgv	*field
11:37	bordatoue	say if i define this instance globally using def , then every time i use this instance within a function do i need to provide hint
11:38	wingy	what do you think about this one: https://github.com/schani/clojurec
11:38	wingy	does it have a chance to get popular?
11:39	TimMc	bordatoue: CHeck for yourself. You can turn on reflection warnings.
11:39	TimMc	I believe you can hint it in the def.
11:40	clgv	bordatoue: yes, I noticed that some time ago. thats because the def can be redefined
11:44	clgv	bordatoue: but checking by enabling reflection warnings will show you
11:47	wingy	has anyone used light table in project mode?
11:47	wingy	i cant get it to display all my project's namespaces
11:48	nDuff	bordatoue: ...well, you can put a hint on the var
11:48	nDuff	bordatoue: that way you don't need to attach it to the uses.
11:49	bordatoue	thanks nDuff clgv
11:50	bordatoue	is there any good way to debug clojure application
11:50	bordatoue	most of the time i don't even get a line no corresponding to the error
11:50	jaley	I think the SoftCache has? implementation in core.cache may not be thread-safe? I'm getting an NPE from here: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/blob/core.cache-0.6.2/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/cache.clj#L510
11:51	nDuff	bordatoue: If you haven't redefined the code since it was last AOT-compiled, you certainly should have a line number in the stack trace.
11:53	bordatoue	nDuff: is there any tool to step through the execution of each function
11:53	clgv	nDuff: oh right. you can add the typehint, but e.g. automatic detection from the java function does not work
11:54	nDuff	bordatoue: Maybe? Haven't needed one, haven't looked.
11:54	nDuff	bordatoue: I try to write my code in small enough pieces that it can be tested and iterated on at the REPL.
11:54	clgv	bordatoue: do you use emacs?
11:55	clgv	bordatoue: swank has a `break` macro that starts a repl in the context of it position
11:56	bordatoue	is there any swank equivalent in eclipse also
12:02	mpenet	yes, counterclockwise has that I heard
12:02	hyPiRion	I think CCW and nrepl works fine now.
12:04	clgv	bordatoue: no break macro though. there is a debug-repl macro but that wont work with nrepl
12:08	michaelr525	bordatoue: https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace <-- i found this very usefull in a case where i desperately missed a stepping debugger :)
12:14	actsasgeek	I have a Java object that I created through Clojure interop that holds a reference to a proxy I created. When I serialize then deserialize the object, I get a "StreamCorruptedException invalid type code: 00" error. Is there a reason inherent in Clojure interop that explains why this would happen?
12:16	clgv	actsasgeek: serializing via Java's serialization?
12:17	actsasgeek	clgv: yes
12:17	clgv	actsasgeek: could be a classloader issue if the proxy is not compiled as a class file
12:20	actsasgeek	clgv: so when I'm doing it from the REPL, it can't figure out the class the pickled object is talking about; it should theoretically be fixed by AOT compilation?
12:20	clgv	actsasgeek: if that's the problem, yes
12:21	actsasgeek	clgv: thanks.
12:22	clgv	actsasgeek: but you might run in other problems regarding serialization id or such
12:24	actsasgeek	clgv: good point.
12:28	Cheiron	Hi, I want to use TTLCache that needs to be wrapped with a ref type . is it allowed?
12:28	Cheiron	http://clojure.github.com/core.cache/#clojure.core.cache/TTLCache
12:29	clgv	Cheiron: depending on it's implementation retries might ruin the cache behavior
12:30	Cheiron	I need a map that is guarded by ref, it is will be used by multiple resources
12:30	Cheiron	and and I need the behavior of TTL to perform a self house cleaning
12:31	clgv	Cheiron: you could use locking (pessimistic) on the cache isntead of transactions (optimistic)
12:31	Cheiron	that is my case : data structure will be used and updated by multiple resources and a TTL policy to prevent "zombie" data
12:32	Cheiron	what do you mean by that?
12:35	clgv	Cheiron: I am not sure if core.cache is a pure immutable implementation.
12:35	clgv	Cheiron: check that and you know whether you can use it in refs without a problem
12:35	Cheiron	it implements : Interfaces: clojure.lang.Associative, clojure.lang.Counted, clojure.lang.ILookup, clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection, clojure.lang.IPersistentMap, clojure.lang.Seqable
12:36	Cheiron	those wont guarantee the "immutability" ?
12:38	AntelopeSalad	question: the source for the fn 'last' says it calculates it in linear time
12:39	AntelopeSalad	is that going to be worse than running count?
12:40	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Depends on the implementation of Counted provided.
12:40	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...worst-case, count is linear time, but it sometimes can be better.
12:41	AntelopeSalad	are implementation of length in other languages in linear time too?
12:41	AntelopeSalad	*implementations
12:41	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Completely depends on the data structure.
12:41	AntelopeSalad	let's assume vectors for now
12:41	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...Clojure is very explicit about its data structures' efficiency boundaries, to allow choosing the right one for the job
12:44	Derpherp	Hi I have a noobie question regarding gen-class
12:45	Derpherp	I would like to have a class created with gen-class then in the same file have a method that creates an instance of the class then call some methods on it
12:45	Derpherp	however I am getting class not found, which is likely due to AOT compilation?
12:45	Derpherp	(or lack there of)
12:46	nDuff	Derpherp: Getting class-not-found at what time? You need to do AOT to get a gen-class class to be created, yes.
12:46	nDuff	Derpherp: ...if you can use one of the alternatives to gen-class, you may not need that.
12:46	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: In the case of vectors, count is constant-time.
12:47	technomancy	yeah, gen-class is annoying. why do you need it?
12:47	Derpherp	I would not like to use an alternative because those classes would be one off (correct?)
12:47	Derpherp	(correct ? )*
12:47	nDuff	Derpherp: Do you mean compiled every time they're used? If so, no, they're not.
12:47	Derpherp	and that would possibly be bad/inefficent for a clojure web service
12:47	nDuff	Derpherp: ...indeed, the alternatives are generally faster/more efficient at runtime.
12:48	Derpherp	again want to note that i am new ;)
12:48	technomancy	gen-class is an advanced topic
12:48	AntelopeSalad	nDuff: ok thanks
12:48	technomancy	there are a few legitimate cases where it's needed, but it's a bad place to start if you're new
12:48	Derpherp	ok i will try proxy then?
12:48	nDuff	Derpherp: gen-class is slowest but works for the most situations, then proxy, and reify is fastest (but most restrictive).
12:48	AntelopeSalad	so in a vector's sake, using last would be a lot worse than count right?
12:49	nDuff	Derpherp: ...so -- always use reify if you can, proxy if you can't reify, gen-class if you can't proxy.
12:49	Derpherp	ok thanks
12:49	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Actually -- getting the last element isn't linear for a vector.
12:49	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...that'd be quite fast.
12:50	Cheiron	Hi, all. would you please have a look at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13015906/is-it-safe-to-use-a-clojure-core-cache-guarded-by-ref-type feel free to answer here or on SE
12:50	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Perhaps you're thinking of a list?
12:50	AntelopeSalad	i wasn't thinking of any data structure in specific, i just happened to see the docstring for count
12:51	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...well, that's the thing -- the specific data structure matters.
12:51	AntelopeSalad	i threw out vector because getting nth index is usually popular
12:51	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...the docstrings give you the guarantee that performance won't be worse than ${given_thing}
12:51	Derpherp	Can i do a reify if i want to extend a java class?
12:52	nDuff	Derpherp: No; you need proxy for that; reify will extend Java interfaces, but not classes.
12:52	Derpherp	ok thanks
12:53	AntelopeSalad	i don't really know clojure too well and am not an algorithm wizard either
12:53	AntelopeSalad	but their implementation seemed really crazy to me
12:54	AntelopeSalad	(for last)
12:56	joegallo	AntelopeSalad: is there a better way to walk through a linked list until you reach the last item?
12:57	lnostdal	hi guys .. get returns the value of a mapentry in a map based on the key .. is there a getter that returns the mapentry itself? the association?
12:58	AntelopeSalad	joegallo: i have no idea, but it didn't occur to me that other languages might be doing it the same way (i figured they wouldn't)
13:01	AntelopeSalad	joegallo: i guess it stemmed from trying to understand things i'm just learning now but don't fully understand
13:02	AntelopeSalad	for example, why can't it do a bisection search instead instead of going through every element?
13:02	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Pardon? Which "it"? In what context?
13:03	AntelopeSalad	it = the last function in clojure
13:03	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: You can't seek efficiently within a linked list, period -- the structure doesn't allow it
13:04	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...so how would you do that search?
13:04	AntelopeSalad	the code for last to me looked like maybe it was calling next on itself until next no longer existed
13:04	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...and again, last is implemented efficiently on structures that do allow it.
13:04	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Yes, and for linked lists, that's the only way it _can_ be done.
13:04	AntelopeSalad	bisection could be implemented by doing nth x right?
13:04	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: How do you think nth is implemented on a linked list?
13:04	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Hint: It's horribly, horribly inefficient.
13:05	Wild_Cat	again, bisection can't be done efficiently in a linked list
13:05	AntelopeSalad	good to know, thanks
13:05	Derpherp	Ok so I am stil trying to wrap my head around proxies. From what i gather they can dynamically create classes that can extend other classes. However, is it possible to: name the proxy class AND extend another class, and allow for multiple instances of the proxy to be created and methods called on it?
13:05	Wild_Cat	it is, in fact, worse than linear search.
13:05	jcromartie	proxy creates an object not a class
13:06	AntelopeSalad	Wild_Cat: only in the case of linked lists tho, no?
13:06	Derpherp	All i want is a class and a main static method to be in a file. Where the main creates an instance of the class and calls a public method
13:06	Derpherp	jcormartie: ya i got that feeling....
13:06	jcromartie	you want deftype and reify if you want to implement multiple instances of a Java class defined in Clojure
13:06	Derpherp	unlike gen-class
13:06	technomancy	Derpherp: what is it you're actually trying to do?
13:06	Wild_Cat	AntelopeSalad: yup. In array lists/vectors, bisection is fast because they allow O(1) element access.
13:07	technomancy	unless this is a homework assignment "a class and a main static method in a file" is not a goal in and of itself =)
13:07	nDuff	(...well, amortized O(1) if we're being pedantic)
13:07	Derpherp	tchnomancy: as above, have a class defined in a file, have a main static method which creates an instance of the class and calls a public method
13:07	AntelopeSalad	that's what i was thinking too Wild_Cat
13:07	AntelopeSalad	i used vector as my example
13:07	technomancy	Derpherp: that's not what I asked
13:07	Wild_Cat	nDuff: why amortized? I'm talking about read access
13:07	AntelopeSalad	isn't a vector an array?
13:07	technomancy	presumably you have an actual problem that you're trying to write code to solve?
13:08	nDuff	Wild_Cat: Clojure's vectors require up to 7 lookups depending on their size, IIRC.
13:08	joegallo	AntelopeSalad: nope.
13:08	Derpherp	technomacy: apoligies, i am basically trying to use a java library in clojure
13:08	Wild_Cat	nDuff: oh? I thought they mapped directly to arrays.
13:08	nDuff	Wild_Cat: Definitely not.
13:08	Wild_Cat	(what with not being resizable and all)
13:08	Wild_Cat	interesting.
13:08	nDuff	Wild_Cat: ...keep in mind that arrays don't support structural sharing.
13:09	jcromartie	Derpherp: can you point to the library or API docs?
13:09	nDuff	Wild_Cat: ...and that vectors _do_ support conj
13:09	Derpherp	which requires that i extend a class to create a new one, and have a static method that can create an instance of the class and get it to do its stuff
13:09	Wild_Cat	nDuff: hrmm. Good point. I still have a lot to learn about Clojure's internals.
13:09	AntelopeSalad	then half my conversation needs to be re-evaluated then
13:09	Derpherp	I want to do this in clojure: http://dynamicjasper.com/docs/current/xref-test/ar/com/fdvs/dj/test/FastReportTest.html
13:09	AntelopeSalad	i thought vectors were arrays heh :/
13:09	AntelopeSalad	they seem to work like them going by the little i read on them
13:10	joegallo	correct, they work a lot like them
13:10	joegallo	and vectors are implemented in terms of arrays (and arrays of arrays), if i recall correctly
13:10	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...very, very large vectors are actually faster than arrays, for obscure reasons involving cache lines in modern processors. :)
13:10	Derpherp	(FastReportTest) http://dynamicjasper.com/documentation-examples/getting-started/
13:11	AntelopeSalad	i guess all this stems down to count vs last
13:11	jcromartie	Derpherp: so you just want to make a runnable class with a "main"
13:11	AntelopeSalad	is there any case when i shouldn't use last?
13:11	Derpherp	yes
13:11	AntelopeSalad	(assume in general with any data structure)
13:11	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Use the one that fits the goal you're trying to achieve.
13:11	jcromartie	Derpherp: then gen-class is for you
13:11	Derpherp	but most examples lack an instantiation or self refercing (this.)
13:12	Derpherp	jcromartie i thought so initally but was advised against it
13:12	jcromartie	Derpherp: why is the instance or self-reference necessary?
13:12	AntelopeSalad	would last be the more commonly used way in clojure land?
13:12	jcromartie	you want to make a Clojure program not a Java program
13:12	nDuff	Derpherp: ...well, you're claiming that you have some fairly unusual requirements here.
13:12	nDuff	Derpherp: You haven't shown any of us the Java API you're working from, so we can't really evaluate that.
13:12	Derpherp	however, if you try to directly convert that code ("new FastReportTest()") has an issue
13:12	nDuff	Oh, wait, you have.
13:12	nDuff	looks
13:12	Derpherp	because the class is not recognized because it need AOT
13:13	Derpherp	:)
13:13	jcromartie	Derpherp: does something actually require you to instantiate a custom class here?
13:13	technomancy	Derpherp: ok, it sounds like you need :aot [whatever.ns] in project.clj then
13:13	jcromartie	Derpherp: like, you specify the class, and it instantiates it?
13:13	nDuff	Derpherp: You could still use proxy if you were providing a factory for generating instances.
13:13	nDuff	Derpherp: If you need to provide a class name, not a factory, then yes, you need gen-class.
13:14	jcromartie	Derpherp: like, there is some interface that will call a certain static method on your class, and your method will return an instance of that class?
13:14	jcromartie	Derpherp: and unless you can do exactly that, then you can't do what you want to do?
13:14	jcromartie	or do you just want to write a class with a "main" in Clojure
13:15	jcromartie	because the example you linked is "public static void main(String[] args)" which means it really does not matter what you do inside of it
13:18	Derpherp	takes a deep breath i just want the code I posted to work in clojure... soo I know im probably not going about it the best way just following tutorials and my BASIC knowledge of clojure. Would you advise going the proxy or gen-class route? And if i go with gen-class how would i do the AOT? I tried using the :aot flag but i do not think i am doing it right. Also if i go the proxy route then how do i call methods that were defined in the proxy?
13:19	Derpherp	Also if i go the gen-class route then CAN I have a similar style as in the java class that has a main create an instance of the class?
13:19	Derpherp	or do i have to have the main in a separate file / name space
13:19	Derpherp	if so (which i have tried) there is a few other issues i ran into
13:20	technomancy	Derpherp: it sounds like the API you're trying to call might force you down the gen-class route. you can do it all in the same file though.
13:20	jcromartie	OK sorry all the gen-class and proxy stuff can be overwhelming :)
13:20	nDuff	Derpherp: If you can, go the proxy route. I don't know that you've answered the questions that need to be answered before we can tell whether "if you can" is true.
13:20	ynniv	lein is using clojure 1.3, even with :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]]. am I insane?
13:20	technomancy	ynniv: one of your dependencies is insane
13:20	technomancy	http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html
13:20	jcromartie	Derpherp: I did a basic example here v
13:20	jcromartie	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6028
13:21	technomancy	ynniv: see also: https://github.com/xeqi/lein-pedantic
13:22	ynniv	technomancy: wow, that is most excellent. The community is definitely the best part of clojure.
13:23	technomancy	ynniv: np. once you figure out which dependency is pulling in the wrong version you should see if you can open a bug report on it if it's still a problem in the latest version.
13:23	mpenet	ibdknox: ping
13:24	Derpherp	thanks jcromartie, i am trying to use it now (going through import and class not found errors atm)
13:24	Derpherp	brb
13:24	jcromartie	Derpherp: so are you trying to write a DynamicJasper test in Clojure?
13:24	Derpherp	yes
13:25	Derpherp	jcromartie: why do you have a gen-class and proxy use in the file?
13:27	tvachon	hey folks - is there any way to specify pre/post conditions on
13:27	tvachon	methods implemented in a defrecord?
13:27	tvachon	it seems to work in extend-* calls, but the hash is ignored in defrecord
13:27	dnolen	tvachon: not really
13:28	tvachon	k, thanks
13:28	dnolen	tvachon: though if you follow the CLJS pattern you could avoid calling protocol implementations directly and go through a fn instead.
13:28	dnolen	tvachon: in CLJS you have -first, but everyone actually uses first
13:29	ynniv	defrecord still seems half baked
13:29	tvachon	I have different prereqs for different types tho, so I'd need to
13:29	tvachon	have a function per type right?
13:30	Derpherp	jcromartie: ya i cant seem to get around BaseDjReportTest :/
13:31	jcromartie	like, you can't import it?
13:31	Derpherp	i have everything imported as stated on http://dynamicjasper.com/docs/current/xref-test/ar /com/fdvs/dj/test/FastReportTest.html
13:32	technomancy	Derpherp: if you're trying to learn clojure it might be more productive to find a project that doesn't involve crazy java APIs =)
13:32	technomancy	I mean if that is an option.
13:32	dnolen	ynniv: not IME
13:33	technomancy	ynniv: people use it way more than they should
13:33	Derpherp	tachnomany haha ya
13:33	dnolen	tvachon: it seems a bit strange to me to have different pre/post for the same protocol regardless of the types involved - but hard to say w/o knowing more about what you're trying to do.
13:33	Derpherp	This is my current code https://www.refheap.com/paste/6029
13:33	ynniv	dnolen: perhaps I should qualify that by saying "for general use"
13:33	dnolen	ynniv: general use for what?
13:34	Derpherp	ya there are a few obvious issues in there (like Date)
13:34	ynniv	storing data and polymorphic functions
13:35	Derpherp	my (current) issue is with line 47
13:36	technomancy	ynniv: people with OO backgrounds jump to polymorphism way sooner than necessary
13:36	dnolen	ynniv: having used deftype / defrecord extensively they seem pretty well suited for exactly that.
13:37	ynniv	defrecord comes with unexpected tradeoffs. the records are java classes and require a specific kind of import. constructors are strictly positional. fields can only be specified as forms and not a value
13:38	ynniv	you can't extend records, only protocols
13:38	dnolen	ynniv: so make your own ctor fn if the ones that doesn't come defrecord don't suit. using :import on deftype/record is an anti-pattern.
13:39	jcromartie	Derpherp: I think there's a simple solution waiting here
13:39	antares_	ynniv: Clojure compiler generates MyRecord->map and map->MyRecord conversion functions, you can use that instead of constructors
13:39	ynniv	i agree that polymorphism is overused, but when it's presented as part of the lang it seems like a good idea at first
13:40	ynniv	yes, defrecord creates some functions, and it's good to make more. at some point it isn't clear why one would bother with defrecord
13:40	Derpherp	ok here is a simplification: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6030
13:40	ynniv	I've switched to validation functions, named field accessors, and plain old maps
13:40	Derpherp	what is the issue with line 12? How should i do AOT?
13:41	dnolen	ynniv: sounds like you didn't need defrecord then.
13:41	ynniv	dnolen: i agree, but that wasn't obvious when I started
13:41	jcromartie	Derpherp: well first the preferred way to do member access is (.foo bar) rather than (. bar foo)
13:41	ynniv	and when I describe what I need (weakly typed data records), it sounds like defrecord is what I want
13:42	Derpherp	jcromartie ok, just going from tutorials
13:42	dnolen	ynniv: yes it's hard to know when you need it, technomancy's advice is precisely what people say here all the itme.
13:42	jcromartie	Derpherp: what is going to be calling your code? that's the important part of interop
13:42	jcromartie	Derpherp: and in a local scope, you want let, not def
13:42	jcromartie	def defines top-level bindings
13:42	jcromartie	i.e. it creates a var in the namespace
13:42	Derpherp	i thought it might, just was using them temporarily (but thanks!)
13:43	jcromartie	so the AOT stuff
13:43	Derpherp	jcromartie another method within the file will be calling my code
13:43	Derpherp	its a kinda gross 1 file .clj file
13:44	jcromartie	Derpherp: if the ONLY thing instantiating your class is the "main" method, which is void, then it's not necessary to create a class to instantiate at all!
13:44	ynniv	dnolen: when do you reach for defrecord?
13:44	dnolen	ynniv: performance
13:44	technomancy	ynniv: where do you feel like defrecord is being presented as something you should use in lieu of maps?
13:44	ynniv	that's what I figured. it might be useful to mention that in defrecord's docstring
13:44	dnolen	ynniv: or some serious DSL / infrastructure like clojure.core or core.logic
13:45	ynniv	dnolen: what about defrecord helps with that?
13:45	jcromartie	Derpherp: it looks like this comes down to creating a JUnit test case in Clojure
13:45	Derpherp	jcromartie eventually i will have multiple methods using an instantion of a the class OR just have a static method within the class that will create the report BUT because of the way reports are created i need to create an instance
13:45	dnolen	ynniv: performance, high performance extensibility
13:46	Derpherp	jcromartie: JUinit test cas in Clojure?
13:46	dnolen	ynniv: you wouldn't want first to implemented over types via multimethods
13:46	Derpherp	case*
13:47	jcromartie	Derpherp: you're trying to replicate a subclass of BaseDjReportTest, which is a JUnit TestCase
13:47	jcromartie	so this makes more sense now
13:47	Derpherp	ah ok
13:47	jcromartie	as someone else said: it's probably better to learn Clojure with something that doesn't involve existing Java APIs :)
13:47	Sgeo	I wonder what people who hate typical OO systems think about Tcl Snit
13:47	Sgeo	It's OO but not inheritance-based
13:47	Sgeo	More delegation-based
13:47	Derpherp	but to try to work from one issue to the next... how do i go about creating an instance of a class that is defined in the same file! :P
13:48	jcromartie	Derpherp I don't think you really have to
13:48	ynniv	technomancy: defrecord is featured in Joy of Clojure, but also anyone who has used CLOS will likely end up with defrecord
13:49	Derpherp	so i should avoid creating classes in clojure and using them in the same file?
13:49	technomancy	Derpherp: files don't really matter when it comes to gen-class
13:49	Derpherp	(i apogize for my java mindset :P)
13:50	jcromartie	Derpherp: the whole point of gen-class interop is to provide a class to be consumed from Java
13:50	Derpherp	apologize*
13:50	jcromartie	Derpherp: and in this case you want to do that
13:50	Derpherp	ok
13:50	jcromartie	Derpherp: but you don't need to go any further than just implementing a certain method
13:50	jcromartie	the "main" is actually irrelevant
13:51	Derpherp	ok, i thought so at one point but then i was having issues refercing something similar to a "this" (like in java)
13:51	Derpherp	if i were not to have a main then how would i do the same task at hand
13:52	jcromartie	the key is buildReport
13:52	Derpherp	hmm i have an idea brb
13:52	jcromartie	so you would just use gen-class and (defn -buildReport [] …)
13:53	jcromartie	the "main" in this class just looks like it's for quickly running the test, I don't know though http://dynamicjasper.com/docs/current/xref-test/ar/com/fdvs/dj/test/FastReportTest.html
13:53	dnolen	ynniv: isn't CLOS considered a bit of overkill for many things as well?
13:56	ynniv	dnolen: it is, but you can use as much or little as you like. I was looking for some features (field accessors for sanity checking, some manner of validation, and some form of method dispatch), which lead me to defrecord. I eventually implemented these things as functions operating on maps instead.
13:57	ynniv	defrecord looks like a slightly more structured map, but in reality seems to be a specific kind of performance optimization that leaks some of the runtime through and incidentally provides some structure
13:58	dnolen	ynniv: I think some pretty nice sugar could be built on top of deftype/record ... my hunch is that Clojure is expressive enough that few people bother. Those that do bother prefer flexibility to do things how you like.
13:58	technomancy	ynniv: sounds about right
13:59	dnolen	ynniv: yes and no, there's enough there to some Self style "Programming Without Classes" style programming.
13:59	dnolen	ynniv: if your protocols are small (which they should be), delegation is pretty easy.
14:00	ynniv	defrecord doesn't appear to be more useful than defmulti
14:01	ynniv	except for performance
14:01	technomancy	that's not really the right comparison; it's defprotocol that's less useful than defmulti (modulo performance)
14:01	dnolen	ynniv: both are useful in completely different ways - it's not unusual to combine both.
14:02	borkdude	I just got an e-mail about this job, might any of you be interested: https://doo.net/en/jobs.html#clojure (click on clojure on the left)
14:04	jcromartie	damn, gen-class and compile are pretty cool… you can genuinely redefine a compiled class on the fly
14:04	jcromartie	like, redefine the methods of an instance
14:05	ynniv	dnolen: I think, tho, that one should only use defrecord when performance is a problem
14:05	S11001001	jcromartie: sure, but you're better off using proxy's secret features for that
14:05	borkdude	gotta go again, bye
14:05	technomancy	jcromartie: not really, you just redefine stub vars
14:06	jcromartie	I understand, technomancy
14:06	bendlas`	dnolen: are you there?
14:07	jcromartie	but the effect is that you can instantiate a "real" Java object and, for all intents and poirposes, swap out its method implementations while it's still alive
14:07	jcromartie	I understand it's not so direct under the hood
14:07	technomancy	I guess if you're coming from Java that sounds novel =)
14:08	jcromartie	it does, in that context
14:08	jcromartie	but I've used Smalltalk and Ruby etc.
14:08	jcromartie	so it's not surprising in that regard
14:08	jcromartie	just surprising that it lets me do this with stodgy old Java objects
14:08	jcromartie	looks like I can't add a method, though
14:08	technomancy	it's a clever sleight-of-hand
14:08	ynniv	the JVM is actually quite permissive. most of the restrictions in Java come from the compiler.
14:09	jcromartie	ynniv: yeah, like "how do I use generics in Clojure" has a rather surprising answer to most people :)
14:11	ynniv	yes. and method / field visibility
14:11	dnolen	ynniv: more or less. but I'm glad Clojure / ClojureScript isn't written on top of multimethods.
14:11	dnolen	bendlas`: hey
14:11	ynniv	dnolen: for performance reasons?
14:12	TimMc	technomancy: I hope Java's security mechanisms don't assume that methods on an object can't change over time...
14:12	dnolen	ynniv: yes
14:13	ynniv	dnolen: I suppose, but perf is always a tradeoff. If I just wanted perf, clojure will never beat sbcl.
14:13	technomancy	ynniv: the original motivation for protocols was for Clojure to be able to achieve self-hosting. people seem to have forgotten that.
14:13	dnolen	ynniv: but also complexity reasons, protocols are simple. multimethods can easily involve :prefer-method and hierarchies which brings it's costs
14:14	ynniv	hmm, both interesting points
14:15	xeqi	technomancy: link? I must be missing what protocols provide over multimethods
14:16	ynniv	my philosophy is: first correct, then fast. so I will forego defrecord until performance is an issue
14:16	technomancy	xeqi: don't have anything off the top of my head. but yeah, it's purely a speed thing.
14:17	ynniv	time to go. thanks for the lein-pedantic link technomancy
14:24	lynaghk	technomancy: re: intro data vis, do you have a particular angle? Stephen Few's "Show me the numbers" is a very solid intro, though it can be a bit dry at times.
14:24	Cheiron	Hi, calling (cache/has? c3 :a) ==> false but printing c3 shows {:a 1} , why?
14:25	Cheiron	(def c3 (cache/ttl-cache-factory {:a 1} :ttl 20000))
14:25	technomancy	lynaghk: nothing really in mind other than a solid intro. I'll check it out; thanks
14:25	lynaghk	technomancy: Anything by Tufte (what I like to call "The Gospel according to Tufte") is fun to read and look at but doesn't have a ton of emperical research behind it or nitty-gritty technical details.
14:26	technomancy	hm; yeah, what I've seen is pretty accessible but I'm not in a position to evaluate it from a technical perspective
14:26	lynaghk	technomancy: this is a very good keynote on human perception w.r.t. data visualization: http://vimeo.com/26205288 I.e., when you should use color, shape, length, &c. to encode quantitative values.
14:27	technomancy	cool; thanks
14:29	lynaghk	technomancy: no problem, let me know if you have any more specific/technical questions.
14:30	technomancy	lynaghk: this project looks like what I wished incanter had when I did the lein survey
14:30	lynaghk	technomancy: c2po?
14:30	technomancy	yeah
14:31	technomancy	I would link you, except apparently AWS is currently on fire
14:32	lynaghk	technomancy: yeah, I'm pretty stoked about it. I'm not looking to do much in the way of stats (depending on the survey results from folks signing up for the mailing list). As I mentioned to you earlier, I think most people are going to get a ton of value from just visualizing their data in reasonable ways without any advanced stats
14:32	lynaghk	technomancy: link me?
14:32	TimMc	technomancy: That would explain reddit being down.
14:32	cscheid	Hi folks, I'm a complete clojure idiot. I probably did something dumb when installing clojure and leiningen via homebrew, but i ran across this interesting bit: (clojure-version) returns "1.3.0" in a $ lein repl, but "1.4.0" in a $ clj -r. Is this expected?
14:32	technomancy	lynaghk: when the AWS outage is over you can try http://lein-survey.herokuapp.com
14:33	technomancy	cscheid: yeah, never use clj from the command line
14:33	technomancy	it's just some bogus script that the homebrew packagers added because they didn't realize that clojure is a library rather than an end-user application.
14:33	lynaghk	technomancy: ah, got it. Yeah, I'll keep that use case in mind. I'm trying to collect a variety of use cases now so we can make sure the system handles a good swath.
14:34	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/lein-survey if you want to see the horrible horrible code
14:34	cscheid	I'm guessing I'm ok with 1.3.0, then? clojure.org seems to say it's outdated.
14:35	technomancy	cscheid: whatever you define in project.clj will be used. for experimentation outside the context of a project it really doesn't matter.
14:35	hyPiRion	cscheid: If you setup a new clojure project and change the version in project.clj, you'll be fine.
14:35	technomancy	cscheid: but it does indicate you're not on the latest leiningen. I don't know much about homebrew beyong a vague suspicion of it, but lein is pretty easy to download manually
14:35	oskarth	Having problems testing a macro and understanding why I get different outputs in the repl vs in the test. https://www.refheap.com/paste/6032 How do I get the actual test to return the same thing as in the repl?
14:36	cscheid	ah, I see it. lein init created it, so I hadn't actually looked at that file
14:36	cscheid	rather, lein new
14:39	cscheid	sweet, switching to leiningen 2.0.0 did it. Thanks.
14:41	cscheid	lynaghk: incidentally, good seeing you here. We chatted at visweek a few days ago.
14:46	ToBeReplaced	anyone know a good way to wrap enlive templates with doctype?
14:49	ebaxt	ToBeReplaced: You need to use all caps DOCTYPE because of TagSoup
14:49	ebaxt	https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/issues/15
14:52	ToBeReplaced	ebaxt: thanks; i'm looking for a way to hack or wrap deftemplate to tack it on automatically
14:54	ToBeReplaced	emit* is buggy if you do multiple things before <html>... likely true whenever you aren't at-most-one-node then a valid xml structure
14:57	xeqi	oskarth: If I'm reading that right its checking ##(type (:name (meta #'+))) vs ##(type +)
14:57	lazybot	(type (:name (meta (var +)))) ⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
14:57	lazybot	(type +) ⇒ clojure.core$_PLUS_
14:58	xeqi	as an equivalent example
14:58	xeqi	I think you want to use 'nand*
14:59	oskarth	xeqi: you are absolutely right, I was going about it backwards. Thanks!
14:59	oskarth	silly - saw the output and assumed there was something up with ns
15:01	frawr	How Can I get the compilation exception Unable to resolve symbol realized? when realized is in clojure.core?
15:02	jcromartie	,clojure.core/realized
15:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/realized, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:02	jcromartie	,clojure.core/realized?
15:02	clojurebot	#<core$realized_QMARK_ clojure.core$realized_QMARK_@c1ba52c>
15:02	jcromartie	frawr: I hope that answers your question :)
15:03	S11001001	frawr: C-M-i in emacs is your friend
15:04	frawr	in nrepl?
15:04	S11001001	uh, maybe; it worked in slime
15:04	Cheiron	Hi, from http://clojure.github.com/core.cache/index.html hit function Is meant to be called if the cache is determined to contain a value associated with e . what does this mean?
15:04	frawr	it's realized?, with the questionmark included
15:05	jcromartie	frawr: that's the one
15:06	frawr	hmm, same here though..., when i ask the repl.
15:07	frawr	That's odd, it should be in core according to the api on the website.
15:09	S11001001	frawr: is there a way you can build a reduced code sample that would allow others to observe the problem you are having?
15:10	jcromartie	http://clojuredocs.org/search?x=0&y=0&q=realized
15:11	jcromartie	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/realized?
15:11	clojurebot	http://clojure.org is help
15:11	jcromartie	there's no "realized" in clojure.core
15:14	frawr	it's on github somewhere, 1 sec
15:15	frawr	https://github.com/fmsbeekmans/http.async.client/blob/development/src/clj/http/async/client/request.clj
15:15	frawr	When I a project that uses this project as a dependency, compiling tells me clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: realized? in this context (request.clj:71)clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: realized? in this context (request.clj:71)
15:16	TimMc	frawr: You're probably pulling in an old version of Clojure somewhere.
15:16	jcromartie	frawr: OK so it is "realized?" in the code
15:16	frawr	Yeah, when did i say it without?
15:17	jcromartie	hah I thought that was the whole thing
15:17	TimMc	frawr: In your initial message, but only in one place.
15:17	jcromartie	the supposed error message :)
15:17	frawr	Aah, my bad.
15:17	TimMc	frawr: Run this and check for the right Clojure version: lein classpath
15:18	frawr	it gives me a huge list, let me check
15:18	TimMc	,(-> realized? var meta :added)
15:18	clojurebot	"1.3"
15:19	TimMc	You might also have `lein deps :tree` available to you if you are using the right version of lein.
15:19	frawr	nice feature!
15:21	frawr	lein deps :tree doesn't list clojure itself though
15:21	TimMc	That's surprising.
15:21	lynaghk	Is there a clever way I can have any symbols that start with ? not evaluate. Or, alternatively, force evaluation of a form within a quoted form? (Like syntax quote but without prefixing all symbols with full namespaces.)
15:22	TimMc	lynaghk: Macros!
15:22	TimMc	You can strip namespaces off selectively.
15:23	lynaghk	TimMc: you're thinking something like clojure.walk within a macro?
15:23	TimMc	Yeah.
15:23	ChongLi	you can even convert symbols to strings and do all sorts of regex-fu on them
15:23	ChongLi	though that doesn't sound too robust
15:23	lynaghk	TimMc: yeah, I was hoping I could avoid that but it's probably the only decent way. The issue with clojure.walk is that it loses record types ocassionally.
15:24	mpenet	lynaghk: prewalk-replace makes this easy
15:24	mpenet	oh records :(
15:24	lynaghk	TimMc: I've already alter-var-root'd clojure.core/empty? to handle records, so maybe I'll be alright.
15:25	frawr	I seem to only have clojure 1.3 on my classpath though i have 1.4 as a dependency
15:26	amalloy	frawr: probably someone is using version ranges
15:27	amalloy	lynaghk: what does "not evaluate" mean?
15:27	lynaghk	amalloy: I need to replace ?x with '?x
15:27	frawr	amalloy: What's the best way to research if that is the case?
15:28	lynaghk	I think the walk solution will be fine; I just wanted to check if there was a clever thing in tools.macros or something.
15:28	amalloy	frawr: if you're using lein2, you can lein deps :tree
15:28	amalloy	lynaghk: i'd use flatten and symbol-macrolet
15:28	frawr	amalloy: I did, but none of my dependencies list clojure itself
15:28	amalloy	flatten the input and search for symbols starting with ?, and then symbol-macrolet each of them
15:29	amalloy	then you don't have to rebuild the input form
15:29	lynaghk	I checked symbol-macrolet, it will lose record types.
15:29	amalloy	wat. you have record types as your source forms?
15:30	lynaghk	The form includes records, yes
15:30	dnolen	lynaghk: is this related to issue that core.logic uses walk?
15:31	lynaghk	dnolen: no, but that's the same problem. I am getting around that by alter-var-rooting clojure.core/empty to return "empty" records.
15:31	llasram	amalloy: Isn't this exactly what clojure.walk/postwalk is for? Or are there unpleasant downsides to it?
15:32	lynaghk	dnolen: doing these logic matches and rewrites is making me thinking about the different kinds of nothingness quite a bit lately =P
15:32	dnolen	lynaghk: heh about alter-var-rooting empty :)
15:32	amalloy	llasram: imo postwalk is a lot better suited to manipulating "data" than "code", insofar as those are actually different
15:33	wingy	I dont quite get how I can programmatically make sense of {"Accept-Language" en-US,en;q=0.8"}
15:33	dnolen	lynaghk: I still up for providing an uninitialized record protocol
15:33	dnolen	so that people can make it work without resorting to such things.
15:33	lynaghk	dnolen: you mean having a special case that doesn't drop to clojure.walk?
15:34	lynaghk	dnolen: when, e.g., prepping the lvars in an expression?
15:34	wingy	in my app I just have en-US, sv-SE etc .. how can I be sure to get the language/country code combo from the {"Accept-Language" en-US,en;q=0.8"}
15:34	dnolen	lynaghk: yes
15:34	amalloy	eh? you can still use clojure.walk, just not post/prewalk
15:34	amalloy	oh no, i take it back. the coll? version uses empty
15:35	antares_	wingy: by parsing it to "the best preferred language". There are Ruby and Java parsers for content/language negotiation strings out there, it is not that complex.
15:35	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, I need to give some more thought to what exactly I need for the stuff I'm doing. We can discuss at strata. I'm getting into NYC Wednesday at 7 a.m.
15:35	dnolen	lynaghk: it's easy enough to check for records
15:35	dnolen	lynaghk: k
15:35	wingy	antares_: could you give me a link to a good Java parser for content negotiation?
15:37	antares_	wingy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6824157/parse-accept-language-header-in-java, although with Jetty you may need a different solution
15:37	frawr	Managed to get realized? recognized. thank you.
15:38	antares_	wingy: http://jetty.codehaus.org/jetty/jetty-6/apidocs/org/mortbay/jetty/Request.html suggests there is getLocale, I think you may be able to combine that with Tower
15:39	wingy	antares_: im new to Jetty .. what is Tower?
15:39	antares_	wingy: how to access raw Jetty request from Compojure or Noir, I am not sure
15:39	wingy	okay
15:39	wingy	thx
15:39	antares_	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/tower
15:40	antares_	wingy: all you need is access the original Jetty request object and use .getLocale or .getLocales
15:42	julson	,
15:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:42	TimMc	frawr: Which dep was the culprit?
15:47	wingy	antares_: Tower looks nice
15:48	wingy	antares_: atm im creating my own lang middle ware .. perhaps just better to use tower
15:48	xeqi	frawr: https://github.com/xeqi/lein-pedantic can help figure it out in the future as well; sometimes lein deps :tree doesn't provide enogh info
15:48	wingy	antares_: if im using Tower I don't have to parse the Accept-Language myself?
15:49	wingy	it says that the ring middleware does that
15:50	TimMc	Hmm, one consequence of cloud services is that when a big one goes down, a *ton of websites are affected all at the same time.
15:50	TimMc	When one company's non-cloud servers go down, it's just them.
15:51	wingy	TimMc: are you talking about Heroku? :)
15:51	TimMc	And Reddit.
15:51	TimMc	and anyone else in that availability zone.
15:54	antares_	wingy: I am not very familiar with Tower but it should be able to also work with Locale instances. Which is what request.getLocale should return you. Jetty then will do all the hard parsing work.
15:55	wingy	"The request's Accept-Language HTTP header."
15:55	wingy	its also allowing language choice based on (get-in request [:session :locale])
15:56	wingy	great fit .. lets use it!
15:56	wingy	i dont get why certain libs have so few users thoug
15:56	wingy	h
16:03	antares_	wingy: because their authors do 0 marketing
16:04	wingy	in node.js we got a TJ
16:04	wingy	when he launches one lib it hits 500 users in some weeks
16:04	antares_	and libraries (even the most awesome ones) need some marketing to grow a community
16:04	antares_	(good documentation is marketing, by the way)
16:04	wingy	yeah
16:05	devinus	anybody work with Titan in Clojure?
16:06	antares_	devinus: I have a very rough client that is not yet good enough to be published
16:07	devinus	i think clojure + titan would be wicked sick
16:07	antares_	Titan is not hard to use directly but also not trivial to wrap in a more idiomatic API
16:07	Sgeo	What's Titan?
16:07	antares_	Sgeo: http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
16:08	devinus	antares_: here's one wrapper: https://github.com/megakorre/clj-titan/blob/master/src/clj_titan/core.clj
16:08	antares_	devinus: I may have something useful enough to others in about a week
16:08	devinus	antares_: what's your GH?
16:09	antares_	devinus: that looks pretty good. I am michaelklishin but it will be published under github.com/clojurewerkz, like the rest of new clojurewerkz.org projects.
16:09	biscarch	is titan a solid graph db? I was looking at it a while ago.
16:09	devinus	antares_: that would be really awesome
16:09	antares_	devinus: I think you can probably go with clj-titan and not wait. I want Titanium to match the quality of clojurewerkz.org's other DB clients.
16:09	devinus	antares_: i'm writing a website in clojure that's going to use titan
16:10	devinus	it's a game changer
16:10	antares_	biscarch: well, Neo4J is solid, too, but has no HA or backups (!!!) in the Community edition
16:10	antares_	Titan is backed by HBase or Cassandra so it has distribution built-in
16:10	antares_	with consistency model you want
16:10	devinus	Neo4j is not distributed at all
16:10	biscarch	antares_: so I've discovered heh
16:10	antares_	devinus: Neo4J Server is
16:11	biscarch	antares_: I like the sound of cassandra/hbase as a backend
16:11	antares_	devinus: master-slave replication with master election on failures
16:11	antares_	biscarch: I haven't looked at the storage impl but I guess adding Riak, MongoDB and JDBC backends won't be difficult, too
16:12	antares_	I agree that Titan is a game changer in the graph db space
16:12	antares_	but it is also not very mature yet
16:13	devinus	there seems to be a lot of Clojure development "groups"
16:13	biscarch	antares_: any glaringly serious problems?
16:14	devinus	i like it
16:14	antares_	devinus: in any case, I will try finishing initial Titanium API and some docs. Now that I see some other folks interested, it will be much easier to motivate myself.
16:14	AntelopeSalad	do you guys use datomic for your non-graph db needs?
16:14	devinus	antares_: yes, i will start using it immediately
16:14	devinus	AntelopeSalad: i unfortunately can't use anything that's not open source. IIRC datomic isn't open sourced yet?
16:15	AntelopeSalad	i'm not sure, still new to the clojure scene -- i don't think it's OS though
16:15	antares_	biscarch: no obvious glaring bugs but it's not well documented, bug free or heavily tested by many people. Being based on the Tinkerpop stack means the API is very much fleshed out, though.
16:15	antares_	devinus: it never will be open source
16:15	devinus	antares_: thought so
16:15	wingy	antares_: tell me whyyayyy
16:16	devinus	yeah, i can't sell to my boss a completely proprietary db
16:17	S11001001	devinus: would you accept a proprietary db for which you received source & hacking permissions?
16:17	devinus	S11001001: yeah
16:17	technomancy	not if you can't share you hacks
16:17	technomancy	in which case it's not proprietary
16:17	S11001001	technomancy: good qualifier
16:17	devinus	lol right
16:17	S11001001	technomancy: there's a threshold
16:17	devinus	at which point you might as well just go open source
16:18	pipeline	that's not true devinus
16:18	pipeline	open source was a long tradition in e.g. proprietary unix
16:18	S11001001	diff doesn't say everything
16:18	devinus	pipeline: oversimplification, i know
16:18	pipeline	they expected to pay your dues, but you could share code with other people past the gate
16:18	devinus	seems weird that datomic doesn't sell itself as "the datomic company" instead, like e.g. basho or datastax
16:18	pipeline	a perpetual license and open-but-nonfree source doesn't sound too bad
16:19	technomancy	disagree; sharing is what makes software worth doing
16:24	S11001001	technomancy: I wouldn't have bothered becoming a programmer without it
16:27	ivan	I have a new appreciation for text editors after trying to implement shift-home/ctrl-shift-a in nrepl.el
16:31	wingy	anyone here having experience with tower?
16:40	seancorfield	~anyone
16:40	seancorfield	hmm, isn't that something the bot responds to?
16:40	emezeske	~anybody
16:41	emezeske	^ Just a guess :)
16:41	seancorfield	wingy: can you be more specific?
16:41	danlarkin	clojurebot!!!!!!!!!!!11111
16:41	wingy	seancorfield: about tower?
16:41	emezeske	clojurebot's being lazy I guess ;)
16:41	wingy	nvm about tower
16:42	hiredman	looks clojurebot is have ebs issues, like the rest of aws
16:42	cscheid	has anyone seen lein uberjar fail with a ClassCastException and then work if you try it again?
16:43	pelismo	in compojure (or ring) is there a way to block stack traces from leaking out to users when errors occur?
16:43	seancorfield	yeah, aws problems hit us for an hour but we're back up now... although it looks like more aws services are suffering than an hour ago...
16:44	wingy	does anyone know how i can access the Jetty request in compojure?
16:44	technomancy	pelismo: that's the default behaviour
16:44	wingy	i mean ring
16:45	pelismo	technomancy: i'm using lein-ring to use a local dev server - could that be the reason it exposes it out?
16:45	technomancy	pelismo: I don't know; I never got the point of lein-ring. you just need to find whatever is enabling the stacktrace middleware.
16:45	pelismo	ok, thanks
16:45	technomancy	if you're not turning it on in your own code it could be coming from the plugin
16:45	Raynes	technomancy: What do you mean by 'never got the point' of it?
16:46	technomancy	Raynes: I completely fail to see the appeal?
16:46	Raynes	Does not compute.
16:46	technomancy	unless you are working with a company that has a lot of investment in existing war-based deploys
16:46	technomancy	I don't understand why people use it during development
16:47	Raynes	I'm fond it because I don't have to add server starting code to my apps.
16:47	technomancy	Raynes: you mean a single line invoking run-jetty?
16:48	Raynes	Yes.
16:48	devinus	Raynes: did you get enough to go to the conf?
16:48	Raynes	technomancy: Your forgetting explicitly added dependencies too.
16:48	technomancy	Raynes: lein-ring is an explicitly added dep too though
16:48	Raynes	It makes it easy to deploy and run your code in a variety of ways.
16:48	Raynes	Yeah, and it does other things and doesn't require additional code.
16:49	technomancy	I would understand that if the variety of ways were somehow better
16:49	Raynes	devinus: Yes.
16:49	devinus	nice
16:49	Raynes	devinus: Reconsidering now that technomancy has shown his true colors.
16:49	Raynes	Can't been seen with him.
16:49	technomancy	Raynes: repl uber alles bro
16:51	antares_	More updates to the Concurrency CDS guide today, feedback very welcomed: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/concurrency_and_parallelism.html
16:52	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: what is your workflow then... nrepl-jack-in, run jetty, kill it when you need the repl back?
16:52	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: you can do run-jetty with :join? false to start it in the background
16:54	technomancy	I like the regularity of being able to frame everything in terms of -main entry points
16:55	ToBeReplaced	seems nice... i like the (.stop server) ability
16:56	technomancy	yeah typically I do (def s (-main)) so I can come back to it
16:57	ToBeReplaced	right, sounds good
16:58	cscheid	ok, i figured it out, so here's in case anyone's searching the logs: lein uberjar fails with a less-than-very-helpful error message if you say (defproject ... :main "the.namespace" ...) instead of (defproject ... :main the.namespace ...). complete idiot mistake of mine, but anyway
17:45	jcromartie	is there a fn like (foo [1 1] inc dec) => (2 0)
17:45	egghead	you want to pass as many fns as the length of the seq?
17:45	jcromartie	like, "transform each element in the collection by the matching argument fn"
17:45	jcromartie	yeah
17:45	jcromartie	I can imagine writing it
17:46	emezeske	,(map #(%1 %2) [inc dec] [1 1])
17:46	jcromartie	not bad
17:46	jcromartie	(defn combobulate [coll & fns] (map #(%1 %2) fns coll))
17:47	egghead	lol, there you go
17:47	metellus	&(map apply [inc dec] [1 1])
17:47	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
17:47	egghead	I was told today that clojure is not as good as scala because it doesn't have 'final'
17:47	egghead	and because of that it's an imperative language
17:48	egghead	:3
17:48	jcromartie	sure, you can def all day long
17:48	jcromartie	why not
17:48	egghead	I heard you like to def so I put a def in your def
17:49	jcromartie	(do (def n 0) (loop [] (def n (inc n)) (println n) (if (< n 10) (recur))))
17:49	jcromartie	<3
17:49	jcromartie	procedural clojure is so natural
17:49	amalloy	jcromartie: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/fn.clj#L94
17:49	jcromartie	amalloy WINS!
17:49	jcromartie	with a neat name and everything
17:50	amalloy	every cool function you want is already in useful, mate
17:50	egghead	flatland
17:50	jcromartie	:) I'll checkit out
17:50	egghead	flatland was a cool book
17:50	jcromartie	never used it
17:50	jcromartie	I keep passing it at the bookstore, should I read it?
17:50	jcromartie	I can get it for free I'm sure
17:51	egghead	certainly wouldn't hurt, it uses a 2d world to explain what a higher dimension might be like
17:51	amalloy	it also spends a lot of time on victorian satire
17:51	amalloy	short enough to read in an evening, as i recall
17:51	egghead	I've been reading 'to mock a mockingbird' and GEB
17:52	amalloy	oh, my brain. mockingbirds are too hard for me
17:52	wingy	do you think i am ready for joy of clojure? i have been on clojure for 1.5 month now .. knowing the basics
17:52	egghead	yes wingy read it
17:53	amalloy	you were ready before you touched clojure. i don't understand claims that it's too hard
17:53	wingy	lol
17:54	tgoossens	I heard a lot of flatland. Read a lot about it. But never the actual book
17:54	tgoossens	Funny idea though. it is almost de standard way that scientist try to explain higher dimensions to non-scientists or students
17:55	egghead	I liked sagan's bit on the 4th dimension from the cosmos series
17:55	egghead	showing how 3d objects have 2d shadows
17:55	tgoossens	yes
17:55	tgoossens	i saw that one too :)
17:56	egghead	4th spatial dimension that is
17:56	emezeske	I second amalloy and nDuff in saying that JoC is not too hard (if you're willing to put in some effort)
17:58	scriptor	there's just a few places where it assumes knowledge of something without really explaining it
18:03	emezeske	scriptor: Presumably someone learning Clojure has access to the internet, where they can fill in gaps
18:03	emezeske	scriptor: Anyway, all books assume a tremendous amount of knowledge (e.g. the English language for example)
18:04	scriptor	I didn't mean that as a criticism, meant that there really are just a few
18:04	wingy	if they have internet they can you google translate along with it
18:04	emezeske	scriptor: Oh :)
18:04	Sgeo	Is Joy of Clojure more about why things are done this way and theoretical abstract concepts than Programming Clojure?
18:04	Sgeo	Because I like theoretical concepts and explanation
18:04	Sgeo	s
18:04	nDuff	Is there a clean way to create an anonymous dynamic var? I want to create a set! target without polluting my namespace.
18:04	scriptor	Sgeo: it definitely has that
18:04	nDuff	Sgeo: Yes, exactly.
18:05	amalloy	&(doc with-local-vars)
18:05	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name-vals-vec & body]); varbinding=> symbol init-expr Executes the exprs in a context in which the symbols are bound to vars with per-thread bindings to the init-exprs. The symbols refer to the var objects themselves, and must be accessed with var-get and var-set"
18:05	nDuff	...mind you, Programming Clojure at least has _some_ of the why... unlike, say, Clojure in Action (which is almost all "how" and no "why" at all)
18:05	nDuff	amalloy: nice; thanks!
18:07	AntelopeSalad	someone recommended me SICP once as a general lisp learning tool and to explain functional programming in general
18:08	AntelopeSalad	if you like theory, it's worth checking out ^ Sgeo
18:09	Sgeo	AntelopeSalad, I started SICP a while ago, I should resume it
18:10	AntelopeSalad	i actually stopped about a third of the way through due to time management issues i had (+ it's really difficult with the math if you don't have a decent math background)
18:10	TimMc	Have You Watched Your SICP Today?
18:10	AntelopeSalad	but yeah, i plan to revist it again
18:10	AntelopeSalad	the first few lectures alone will probably change your entire philosophy on programming
18:12	shaungilchrist	I am still trying to read SICM
18:12	egghead	computer machines
18:12	shaungilchrist	every year I pick it up and make it half a chapter further and realize how much more I don't know about physics
18:12	shaungilchrist	I'd actually be bummed out if it were any other way
18:32	devth_	is there a function to detect if something is a lazy seq?
18:35	brehaut	devth_: a seq or do you want to specifically know about laziness?
18:35	devth_	put another way: i have the result of some (eval foo) - it could be anything. i want to get its string representation: (str (eval foo)). this sometimes returns "clojure.lang.LazySeq" which is very unhelpful.
18:35	tgoossens	i think he wants something like this:
18:35	tgoossens	(lazy? coll)
18:36	texnomancy	maybe you want pr-str
18:36	devth_	ah
18:36	devth_	texnomancy: perfect. ty
18:37	emezeske	texnomancy: Are you technomancy's doppelganger? Are you a good doppelganger or a evil one?
18:38	texnomancy	emezeske: I'm using it to weather awsageddon
18:39	emezeske	texnomancy: :)
18:39	zackzackzack	Any ideas about what java.lang.String<> means as a parameter type?
18:40	clojurebot	(2 0)
18:40	zackzackzack	I've tried using a string as a input type but it says that there is no matching method for that call
18:44	amalloy	zackzackzack: doesn't mean anything, so you'll have to provide more context
18:46	tgoossens	well good night everyone (for me atleast :) )
18:49	seancorfield	I had never realized how counter-intuitive core.cache must seem until I tried to explain it on the list today...
18:52	texnomancy	I couldn't figure it out when I briefly tried it
18:52	texnomancy	ended up rolling my own memoize that exposed the atom
18:52	amalloy	texnomancy: hadn't you already done that long before core.cache existed?
18:52	texnomancy	after submitting http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-804
18:53	texnomancy	amalloy: no, I think that was just complaining about c.c/memoize and not writing anything
18:53	seancorfield	It does seem like it would cause less confusion if core.cache actually wrapped itself in an atom in the first place... unless fogus imagines other uses (which I can too, just not sure they're likely to be common)
18:53	texnomancy	haha "recommend Guava for advanced caching"
18:54	tomoj	is there an easy way to get the requires of a namespace?
18:55	texnomancy	tomoj: slamhound does that
18:56	tomoj	cool, so just need a function to get a filename from an ns
18:56	tomoj	thanks
18:58	tomoj	was hoping to avoid reading, but if slamhound takes care of it, great
19:20	zackzackzack	amalloy: took an hour of googling, but I found out what's up
19:20	zackzackzack	amalloy: Canonicalizes class names as Clojure symbols. Types can extend to the TypeReference protocol to indicate that they can be unambiguously resolved as a type name. The canonical format requires one non-Java-ish convention: array brackets are <> instead of [] so they can be part of a Clojure symbol.
19:20	zackzackzack	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.reflect-api.html
19:24	zackzackzack	I guess the question is now how to create a typed array (or if I even want to).
19:28	acagle	/flush
19:57	ivan	http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/local-state-is-poison/
20:51	Kowboy	ok, got a tricky one...
20:51	Kowboy	I have a map that I got from a JSON request (trough clj-http)
20:52	Kowboy	it has the following content: {:T.Brady "00-0019596", :J.Tuck "00-0023509", : "0"}
20:52	Kowboy	notice the last key
20:53	Kowboy	it's empty
20:53	Kowboy	if I try to write this out and read it back in, I get a parse error
20:53	tomoj	in cases like that I prefer :as :json-string-keys
20:53	Kowboy	hmmm, I'll try that
20:54	Kowboy	in the original JSON, it is actually :0 with no key
20:54	Kowboy	didn't know that was valid JSON. Maybe it's not
20:54	dnolen	Kowboy: it's not valid
20:55	tomoj	sure it is?
20:55	tomoj	it's inconvenient
20:56	emezeske	I just typed {"a" : 1, : 2} into my local JS console, and it threw an error. Seems not valid.
20:56	tomoj	luckily anything (I think?) that doesn't work as a keyword is inconvenient for js programmers, so rare
20:56	tomoj	the json is {"a": 1, "": 2}
20:57	dnolen	tomoj: yes that's different.
20:57	emezeske	Kowboy just said it is :0 with no key. "" is a key.
20:57	tomoj	that's his keywordized version
20:57	tomoj	the key is (keyword "")
20:57	tomoj	otherwise cheshire would have blown up
20:57	emezeske	I quote, "in the original JSON, it is actually :0 with no key"
20:57	tomoj	oh
20:58	tomoj	I don't believe that :)
20:58	emezeske	I mean, maybe Kowboy is writing confusing things, but the way I interpret that is that the JSON is malformed
20:58	tomoj	cheshire blows up
20:58	dnolen	,{(keyword "") 0}
20:58	clojurebot	{: 0}
20:58	tomoj	maybe it looks like no key if you print it in js
20:59	emezeske	tomoj: Yeah, maybe that's it.
20:59	tomoj	(it does in chrome: "Object {: 4, foo: 3}")
21:00	tomoj	factual-clojure-driver keywordizes everything even if the keys have spaces and other funny characters, and for some reason :json-string-keys blows it up :(
21:01	tomoj	oh, I just realized why
21:02	tomoj	selecting keywordization seems somewhat tricky
21:02	Kowboy	the JSON looks like {:0, T.Brady:00-0019596, J.Tuck:00-0023509}
21:02	tomoj	JSON.stringify it
21:03	tomoj	(that isn't JSON)
21:03	amalloy	yeah, that looks closer to random characters than to json
21:03	Kowboy	cheshire reads it as {: "0" etc..}
21:03	Kowboy	that doesn't parse when you try to read-string it
21:04	Kowboy	,(read-string "{: \"0\"}")
21:04	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
21:04	Kowboy	that's the exact error I'm seeing
21:04	tomoj	..don't pass true to cheshire (i.e. use :as :json-string-keys with clj-http)
21:05	Kowboy	cheshire consumes the JSON just fine, but I can't write it to a file and read-string it later unless I filter it
21:05	tomoj	that or deal with the empty keyword manually
21:05	Kowboy	ok, thanks
21:10	dakrone	that is some crappy json
21:14	amalloy	i don't think we got through to him with the message "That is not JSON. It is random garbage someone decided to tell you is JSON."
21:14	muhoo	http://jsonlint.com/
21:16	Frozenlock	Is there something more recent than clj-units for units dans dimensions stuff? (clojure 1.2!) http://onclojure.com/2010/03/23/computing-with-units-and-dimensions/
21:23	xeqi	Frozenlock: https://github.com/martintrojer/frinj ?
21:31	Frozenlock	xeqi: looks very nice! Thanks for the link.
21:53	Khaoz	Write something like (defn s->k [s] (keyword s)) is just a preference/best pratice, right ?
21:55	Khaoz	like the use of ? to visually tell that a function return a boolean
21:56	amalloy	giving a cryptic new name to a function already in the standard library sounds more like a worst practice
21:59	Khaoz	you think that i'm writing some kind of valid code ? It's just an example. My main point here is the s->k particle.
22:05	Khaoz	anyway, looks like "yes" is the answer to my question :)
22:05	Khaoz	thanks :)
22:09	Licenser	okay here is the question, what was the way to go now to work with EMACS, slime was not the SOTA thing right?
22:15	xeqi	Licenser: nrepl
22:15	Licenser	xeqi thanks!
22:23	Kowboy	ok, so I decided I like keywords better and used clojure.walk to replace the empty keywords
22:23	Kowboy	twas easier than I thought
22:23	Kowboy	in general, which walk function is better on performance?
22:24	Kowboy	prewalk-replace, postwalk-replace, or some other third thing?
22:54	Licenser	gosh uploading to clojars got a lot more complicated :(
22:55	seancorfield	Licenser: I still do `lein do pom, jar` and then scp it manually
22:56	Licenser	hmm that isn't a bad idea
22:57	xeqi	Licenser: how so?
22:57	Licenser	I'm reading the read me of the deploy task and there is stuff in there like registering on some website (other the clojars)
22:57	Licenser	ah I should have probably looked at the topic
22:59	muhoo	it's pretty insane last I checked, PGP stuff, etc
22:59	muhoo	i just scp manually too :-) fast and easy
22:59	texnomancy	the only thing worse than signing jars is pulling in jars that are impossible to verify =\
23:00	texnomancy	Licenser: registering on some other site?
23:00	Licenser	yea it was in the maven central section :)
23:01	Licenser	I didn't see the topic there
23:01	texnomancy	oh, heh
23:01	texnomancy	yeah, luckily clojars is much simpler
23:01	xeqi	I tried to make it as simple as `lein deploy clojars` :p
23:02	Licenser	xeqi yea that gives me a 401 sadly :(
23:02	Licenser	that would be really cool if it wired so :P
23:02	Licenser	ponders if that might be because he's not owner of the group the jar is in
23:03	xeqi	401 should be failed login if I remember right
23:03	amalloy	authentication required
23:04	xeqi	unfortunatly aether (the library lein uses for dependency management/pushing) doesn't have a way to produce good errors
23:04	xeqi	even if a real messsage is sent back from clojars :(
23:05	Licenser	yea but my http credentials are right
23:05	xeqi	group permission problems should end up as a 403 if I remember and am scanning code right
23:05	texnomancy	401 could be http rather than https too
23:06	Licenser	ah there we go, problem solved. For once I used https now then I changed the group to something I own :)
23:07	Licenser	ah I've not worked with clojure far to long - bad me
23:08	xeqi	Licenser: lein version ?
23:08	Licenser	got 2.0
23:08	Licenser	xeqi I really think the problem was that I tried to push to a group that was not mine
23:08	Licenser	I am fixing a 3rd party library and wanted to put the jar on clojars and did not use my group for that
23:09	xeqi	k, glad to hear its working for your group :)
23:09	Licenser	:D and me