#clojure – 2012-10-03

2012-10-03

00:00	casion	"IllegalArgumentException No matching field found: getInputStream for class java.util.zip.ZipFile "
00:00	akhudek	jcrza: Eclipse and IntelliJ both have decent clojure support.
00:00	technomancy	jcrza: counterclockwise is generally considered the top contender for IDEs
00:00	casion	that is just insanely confusing of an error message
00:01	jcrza	Sweet, thanks :)
00:01	technomancy	Sgeo: reasonable enough
00:01	akhudek	jcrza: counterclockwise is eclipse
00:01	akhudek	or rather a plugin
00:01	arrdem	srsly? counterclockwise over Vimclojure or SLIME?
00:01	casion	arrdem: on windows?
00:02	arrdem	yeah... I'm trying to get Cygwin set up for that but it isn't looking good
00:03	akhudek	arrdem: cygwin isn't worth the trouble. If you want unix that much, just run a vm. :/
00:03	arrdem	akhudek: right now I'
00:03	arrdem	m just using it to SSH to real unix machines... it's even bad at that T_T
00:04	akhudek	haha, it is, putty is the goto on windows I think
00:05	jcrza	Putty is the best.
00:08	xeqi	counterclockwise has leiningen integration and uses nrepl and is contributed to by the nrepl maintainer, seems top tier to me
00:19	Sgeo	What thread do watchers (as in, fns placed by add-watch) run in?
00:40	amalloy	Sgeo: unspecified
00:45	Sgeo	With Aleph HTTP server, how does Ring middleware interact with handlers that are synchronous but have async bodies?
00:48	arohner	amalloy: is it? I thought the docstring was clear that ref watchers would run synchronously, after the ref commits
00:48	arohner	but it's in the thread pool, i.e. unspecified, for agents
00:56	amalloy	&(doc add-watch)
00:56	lazybot	⇒ "([reference key fn]); Alpha - subject to change. Adds a watch function to an agent/atom/var/ref reference. The watch fn must be a fn of 4 args: a key, the reference, its old-state, its new-state. Whenever the reference's state might have been changed, any regis... https://www.refheap.com/paste/5461
00:58	amalloy	arohner: i think that's probably how it's implemented, but "synchronously" does not imply "on the current thread"
00:59	amalloy	eg, imagine there's a worker thread that handles calling all the watch functions, to make sure you only interact with the gui on a single thread. if you give him that work to do, and then wait for him to finish, it's still synchronous
00:59	arohner	amalloy: sure. but 'synchronously, after the ref commits, before anything else commits' strongly implies it. Your only other alternative is 'on another thread, but it blocks the original thread while things run on an alternative thread'
01:00	amalloy	it definitely does not say "before anything else commits"
01:00	amalloy	which would be an impossible contract anyway
01:01	arohner	you're right. I should have said, before anything else sends
01:01	amalloy	not even that. just, before sends queued by the current transaction send
01:02	amalloy	(dotimes [_ 2] (add-watch r (fn [& args] (send a inc))))
01:02	amalloy	can't help but allow those sends through, i think; although i'm not sure on that
01:08	francis	21:54 <amalloy> arohner: i think that's probably how it's implemented, but "synchronously" does not imply "on the current thread"
01:57	Sgeo	Is there a way to remove all watchers from a ...... mutable item (not sure what the formal Cloure name is) without knowing the keys?
02:05	muhoo	is there some way to specify a bunch of forms to run whenever an nrepl connection starts up to an existing process?
02:06	muhoo	:profiles {:repl {:injections }} doesn't work
02:11	BrainBacon	Will someone help me become more familiar with vimclojure?
02:45	Sgeo	Is there a significant difference between using Aleph solely for the ability to put a channel in the body and just using an InputStream for the body in regular Ring with Jetty?
02:49	cark	aleph does not do ssl
02:49	cark	which is annoying, because i really like it otherwise
02:54	Sgeo	Uh, other than the fact that implementing my own InputStreams might be painful :
02:54	Sgeo	:/
02:54	Sgeo	Would it likely be
02:54	Sgeo	Whereas I can just enqueue with Aleph, I'd need to ... make a lazy InputStream somehow
02:54	Sgeo	:/
02:55	Sgeo	Wait, are InputStreams as bodies allowed to block in Jetty? Is that a bad idea/
02:55	cark	can't be that hard =P
03:03	cark	why do you need a lazy output for your web app ?
03:03	cark	doing some kind of a commet thingie ?
03:03	cark	comet*
03:04	Sgeo	cark, yes
03:04	cark	nice, this is something that has been missing from the clojure ecosystem
03:05	cark	(as far as i know)
03:05	Sgeo	:/
03:06	cark	the top would be a library that does websockets ond falls back to comet style when not available
03:06	cark	on the client side and server side
03:12	ForSpareParts	Would anybody be able to take a quick look at my code? I'm starting my first big Clojure project, and I'd appreciate any comments on my coding style or direction...
03:12	ForSpareParts	https://gist.github.com/3825501
03:15	cark	the whole property-map business seems fishy to me
03:16	cark	looks like you're trying to do OO
03:16	Sgeo	Why doesn't Aleph do SSL?
03:17	cark	Sgeo: maintainer does not want to have to maintain it
03:17	cark	Sgeo: the ssl part i mean
03:17	cark	Sgeo: tho it seems like it's not too hard to add that by directly using the underlying whatitsname library
03:19	ForSpareParts	cark: you're probably right -- what would be a better, more clojure-y way to do it?
03:21	Sgeo	Would it be a bad idea for me to rely on .getWatches?
03:21	cark	move could be directly working on any structur which has x and y properties
03:21	cark	then you can make a behaviour like this #(move 10 0 %)
03:22	cark	to apply several behaviours : (reduce apply-behaviour initial-item behaviours)
03:23	cark	apply behaviour woudl be (fn [result behaviour] (behaviour item))
03:23	cark	apply behaviour woudl be (fn [result behaviour] (behaviour result))
03:24	cark	so that makes (reduce #(%2 %1) initial-item behaviours)
03:25	cark	see what i mean ?
03:25	ForSpareParts	cark: trying to. Functional newbie, here.
03:26	cark	also in clojure you seldom need to use actual lists
03:26	ForSpareParts	Are you saying that move would be a function that gets applied directly to a structure with an x/y?
03:26	cark	right
03:26	ForSpareParts	And it would return the subset of the map that changed?
03:27	ivan	Sgeo: seen clj-browserchannel? writing a Comet thing is harder than it looks given dropped/re-ordered HTTP requests. and many other things.
03:27	cark	(defn move [x y target] (-> target (update-in [:x] #(+ % x)) (update-in [:y] #(+ % y))))
03:28	Sgeo	ivan, is that production ready?
03:28	ivan	no idea. but the author says he uses it in production on one site.
03:29	ForSpareParts	cark: Thanks! I'm going to study that until it makes sense. Might be back with more questions.
03:30	ivan	at least the client side of BrowserChannel is definitely production ready
03:30	cark	ok =)
03:30	Sgeo	Is there a way to use clj-browserchannel without ClojureScript, as in, just Javascript on the client-side?
03:31	ivan	I would assume so. All of BrowserChannel is in Closure Library, and there's no cljs in its repo
03:31	cark	ForSpareParts: getproperty already exists (get-in state [:ball :position :x))
03:31	Sgeo	Is Google Closure a compiler?
03:31	Sgeo	:/
03:32	ivan	Closure Compiler is a compiler
03:32	ivan	Closure Library is a huge pile of JavaScript
03:32	cark	i'd say it's a gloryfied minifier =P
03:32	Sgeo	Ah, ok
03:33	ivan	a minifier with tree-shaking and an advanced type system ;)
03:33	cark	yeah it's at the boundary betwenn minifier and compiler =P
03:33	ForSpareParts	cark: Good to know! Also glad to learn about the arrow (had seen it, but hadn't looked it up until just now) and update=in, which I suspect does something I spent a bunch of time trying to figure out how to do.
03:34	cark	ForSpareParts: great =)
03:37	cark	ForSpareParts: tho my sample usage of update-in was kinda wrong
03:37	cark	(defn move [x y target] (-> target (update-in [:x] + x) (update-in [:y] + y)))
03:37	cark	that's better !
03:54	kral	namaste
04:17	josteink	oooh
04:17	josteink	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk
04:17	josteink	this makes me want to try out creating a clojure web app of sorts
04:17	josteink	(and AWS elastic beanstalk)
04:18	josteink	what's the recommended clojure framework/library for web development these days?
04:24	cark	i personally use ring, add a couple libraries, and build most stuff myself around it
04:25	cark	once you've got the web server, everything else is actually rather easy, not much need for frameworks
04:26	cark	except maybe for routing, but i rolled my own for that too
04:26	cark	*request routing
04:28	mjc	there's also compojure and noir, which are built on top of ring
04:28	cark	compojure does the routing, it's not too bad !
05:05	wingy	is there any benefit for using "get map key" rather than "map key" or "key map" ?
05:06	cark	(key map) works only with keyword keys
05:06	cark	but returns nil when map is nil
05:06	wingy	so then its "get map key" vs "map key"
05:07	cark	,(get nil :blah)
05:07	clojurebot	nil
05:07	cark	(nil :blah)
05:07	cark	,(nil :blah)
05:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
05:07	wingy	i c
05:07	cark	(get {} :a :not-found)
05:07	cark	,(get {} :a :not-found)
05:07	clojurebot	:not-found
05:08	wingy	,({} :a :not-found)
05:08	clojurebot	:not-found
05:08	wingy	:)
05:08	cark	wingy: i didn't know that one !
05:08	cark	=P
05:08	wingy	new feature i guess
05:08	wingy	,(get nil :not-found)
05:08	clojurebot	nil
05:09	wingy	,(get nil :hey :not-found)
05:09	clojurebot	:not-found
05:09	cark	i usually do (:key map)
05:09	wingy	ok seems like "get" is safer .. also good since then "get-in" makes sense
05:10	wingy	man i love clj
05:10	wingy	never js again
06:22	wingy	how do you loop a map to get the key and value?
06:22	wingy	for each element
06:28	josteink	mjc & cark: thanks. input noted
06:30	algernon	wingy: (map (fn [[key value]] (do-stuff key value)) (seq hash-map)) ? ; probably not the best way, though
06:30	wingy	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6685916/how-to-iterate-over-map-keys-and-values
06:30	wingy	read about this
06:31	wingy	the answer seems logical
06:35	wingy	(doseq [keyval map] (prn (second keyval)))
06:40	wingy	it seems not working since doseq is returning nil
06:40	wingy	a
06:41	wingy	i need something that returns the expression body since im using it for hiccup
06:41	wingy	how do i loop a map in hiccup returning an element that is using the key/value pairs for each iteration
06:43	wingy	(for [keyvalue (seq {:name "foo" :age 23})] keyvalue)
06:44	wingy	(for [keyvalue {:name "foo" :age 23}] keyvalue)
06:44	wingy	wow .. how come no one mentions this
06:45	wingy	worked like a charm
06:52	cark	,(seq {:name "blah" :age 40})
06:52	clojurebot	([:age 40] [:name "blah"])
07:04	augustl	is it possible to (apply some-macro a-list) to call (some-macro list-item-1 list-item-2)?
07:05	cark	your list is a literal list ?
07:06	cark	remember that macros can't look inside a run-time list
07:07	augustl	cark: it's a run-time list
07:08	cark	then it's not possible
07:08	augustl	writing a function that takes a list and ends up calling weavejester.github.com/compojure/compojure.core.html#var-context which is a macro
07:08	augustl	I guess I have to write a macro instead of a function
07:09	augustl	and it's not actually a run-time list now that I think about it
07:09	cark	i think there must be an underlying functional interface to these macros
07:09	augustl	all the functions are unfortunately private
07:09	cark	well if it's not, then you can unroll it
07:11	cark	but i have to ask, how do you have a list bound to a name while not being a run time list
07:11	augustl	I'm writing it as a macro now
07:12	wingy	today is the day i make a decision using ApiGee App Services or Datomic
07:12	cark	if it's inside a macro then you could `(some-macro ~@my-list)
07:12	wingy	Datomic fits clojure and is cooler but ApiGee App Services is a BAAS
07:13	wingy	handling deployment and everything .. if anyone has some inputs please share
07:14	cark	have you considered heroku ?
07:14	wingy	cark: yeah heroku is PAAS .. apigee is BAAS
07:14	wingy	a level abobe PAAS
07:15	wingy	but even if i choose ApiGee i still need Heroku to serve my app
07:15	cark	hum what is baas ?
07:15	wingy	i used the wrong word .. ApiGee isn't doing deployment .. i just meant that i don't have to care for their backend (softwares).. you just use their HTTP API
07:16	wingy	backend as a service .. PAAS is you saying "i want this and that software" BAAS is you saying "create new user…save this user"
07:16	wingy	IAAS handles hardware for you … PAAS handles software for you .. BAAS handles data for you
07:17	wingy	pretty cool
07:17	cark	oh i see
07:17	wingy	but if i use Datomic i stay closer clojure .. which i like
07:17	wingy	have a look at ApiGee app services, Kinvey, Parse and Stackmob
07:18	wingy	an emerging trend .. pretty new but already growing rapidly
07:25	sundbp	anyone recognize this error message trying to use ritz-swank 0.5.0 from emacs24: "Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-ritz"
07:26	cmiles74	sundbp: That looks like maybe the slime-ritz mode isn't actually loading.
07:27	sundbp	cmiles74: i'd agree. it's listed as an installed package by package manager though.
07:29	sundbp	cmiles74: hmm.. i seem to just have gotten it working. reinstalled packages
07:30	cmiles74	sundbp: I've had el-get install stuff, but it doesn't actually show up until I restart Emacs. Not all packages, just some of them.
07:30	cmiles74	sundp: :-)
07:31	sundbp	cmiles74: not sure i did anything more than reinstall. perhaps restarted emacs. not sure
07:36	sundbp	cmiles74: i do however get an error "5 slime-media-4e750cb9.el:1:1:Error: Cannot open load file: slime-repl"
07:52	Cheiron_	Hi, any libs to mock objects in clojure?
07:56	sundbp	cmiles74: false alarm, was missing slime-repl package. all sorted now
07:56	ifesdjeen	hi guys, does anyone know how to avoid Reflection Warnings when using thrush (->) operator?
07:56	ifesdjeen	I'm using type hints, setting explicit type, but that doesn't really help
08:04	cemerick	ifesdjeen: pastebin, please?
08:04	ifesdjeen	sec
08:09	ifesdjeen	cemerick: https://gist.github.com/3826589 here it is
08:09	ifesdjeen	first example is project-specific, below one is generic
08:31	cemerick	ifesdjeen: so, the ArrayList examples don't work as you'd expect, because .add returns a boolean, not the List
08:32	cemerick	You're looking for (doto (ArrayList.) (.add 3) …) in that case
08:32	ifesdjeen	ah, true
08:32	ifesdjeen	that makes perfect sense
08:33	ifesdjeen	thank you cemerick
08:33	cemerick	I suspect the same applies to the Column example, since the methods are .setXXX
08:33	ifesdjeen	yup, most likely that is the error
09:41	Cheiron_	Hi, how to add this dependency to project.clj?
09:43	Cheiron_	http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.mockito/mockito-all/1.9.0
09:43	Cheiron_	how to add http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.mockito/mockito-all/1.9.0 as a dependency to project.clj?
09:44	andrewmcveigh	Cheiron: [org.mockito/mockito-all "1.9.0"] should do it
09:49	Cheiron_	andrewmcveigh: thanks!
10:05	_wingy	what does sound data model mean in datomic?
10:09	chouser	probably some combination of immutable, composable, good equality semantics.
10:23	jcromartie	dang, I feel stupid… I've been using (in-ns 'foo.bar) instead of (ns foo.bar) in the REPL all this time?
10:23	jcromartie	all of those wasted keystrokes! I'm sure they add up to almost as much as I just typed here to whine about it!
10:24	casion	jcromartie: you don't use autocomplete or something like that?
10:24	jcromartie	casion: oh snap, now you're making me feel really bad
10:25	casion	I just hit i-tab, '<first-letter or two> tab
10:25	jcromartie	What's i-tab?
10:25	jcromartie	In swank-clojure it's C-c M-p
10:25	casion	the character i, follow by tab which completes to "(in-ns "
10:26	jcromartie	ah ha
10:26	jcromartie	slick
10:26	casion	n completes to something else first
10:26	BeLucid	I want to not start my web server when I run my project in the repl... is there a test for if your running from lein repl or not?
10:26	casion	so I just use in-ns since it always is first on the list for i
10:27	casion	jcromartie: I assume you use emacs, it's worth checking out ac-nrepl
10:27	jcromartie	hm
10:27	ToBeReplaced	at http://clojure.org/namespaces it tells you to use in-ns instead of ns
10:29	jcromartie	ToBeReplaced: I think that means for creating new namesakes at the repl, no?
10:29	jcromartie	or does it really mean for switching namespaces
10:29	jcromartie	I mean in-ns makes sense
10:29	ToBeReplaced	i have no idea; i struggle to understand the difference
10:29	ToBeReplaced	i just noticed that i was always using in-ns as well, and was wondering why when at a high level ns seems simpler
10:30	jcromartie	I'm also surprised that clojure.repl is not use'd by default in the user namespace
10:30	jcromartie	it used to be, no?
10:30	jcromartie	doc, source, etc.
10:30	jcromartie	hm, well looks like doc is there but not source
10:30	jcromartie	weird
10:33	ToBeReplaced	do you know the difference between in-ns and ns?
10:34	ToBeReplaced	oh i get it;
10:35	ToBeReplaced	if you use ns, there are additional implieds like using clojure.core... with in-ns, you don't get that, you only get the mappings defined in the namespace
10:37	Cheiron_	hi, why this (Mockito/mock TupleImpl.class) is generating CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException ?
10:38	Cheiron_	even (Mockito/mock String.class) is throwing the same exception
10:38	jkkramer	Cheiron_: you don't need .class. Just use String or TupleImpl
10:39	Cheiron_	jkkramer: oh true!
10:43	Cheiron_	How to write this in clojure? Mockito.verify(service).commit() ?
10:45	Cheiron_	never mind ..
10:58	mefesto	I've been using nrepl and notice that sometimes while working in a nrepl session that usage of 1, 2, ... doesn't seem consistent. For example, I'll evaluate something then do `(def x *1)` but find that x is nil instead of the value i expected. Has anyone else noticed this?
10:58	mefesto	it happens randomly
10:59	mefesto	ok it happens always now :)
10:59	mefesto	eval 1 then immediately afterwards (def x *1)
11:00	ToBeReplaced	mefesto: that works for me in nREPL... (eval 1), then (def x *1), then x prints 1
11:01	mefesto	hmmm im using nrepl-jack-in from emacs, you?
11:01	wjlroe	Does anyone know how to 'recompile' a def in a library you've used? (emacs/slime)
11:02	ToBeReplaced	mefesto: lein repl from my project
11:02	mefesto	ToBeReplaced: that works for me too
11:02	mefesto	I guess my issue is specific to emacs
11:03	ToBeReplaced	mefesto: i don't have an emacs setup, so i can't help there... gl
11:36	uroborus_labs	So I like seesaw, but is there a way to create desktop based applications using html5? Or some sort of clojure/webkit setup?
11:37	uroborus_labs	Where I am going with this is that I really like the Light Table Ui, but not sure the best way to go about creating a desktop app.
11:38	uroborus_labs	From what little information is on the Light Table blog, it sounds like he is using Noir and built the app using a client/servr type model
11:39	wjlroe	uroborus_labs: I looked into that myself - took apart the light table jar, but I can't find anything for building webkit apps easily unfortunately. Also, on Linux and Windows, Light Table just opens in chrome, so it appears there isn't an easy way to encapsulate webkit for a frontend
11:39	uroborus_labs	Ahh, I have only tested it on OSX, wasn't aware that it was a chrome app on osx and linux.
11:39	uroborus_labs	Hmm...
11:39	wjlroe	yeah it's all pretty standard web server stuff in Light Table, with lots of ClojureScript
11:39	cark	i think there is a webkit widget in swt
11:40	wjlroe	you ideally want the full V8 and all that jazz
11:40	uroborus_labs	I might just be better off sticking with seesaw for what I want to do then...
11:40	hiredman	javafx has a webview that is webkit
11:40	cark	hiredman: mhh nice
11:40	cark	is it possible to script it from java ?
11:40	hiredman	sure
11:41	cark	mhh
11:41	cark	is it portable to windows ?
11:41	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/webview/jfxpub-webview.htm
11:42	hiredman	http://www.a1o1.com/java-fx20-embedding-webview-in-swing
11:42	hiredman	etc
11:42	uroborus_labs	It seems possible to do well...
11:42	cark	hiredman: awesome thanks a lot
11:43	hiredman	the main thing is you need java 7+, and you need to specifically put the javafx jar on the classpath
11:43	wjlroe	pooh, this is worth playing with
11:43	wjlroe	I mean ooh
11:43	wjlroe	not pooh
11:43	uroborus_labs	lol
11:45	wjlroe	The reason I looked into this was for my Ludum Dare entry http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-24/?action=preview&uid=14189 which is ClojureScript and wanted to distribute it as if it was an app
11:45	cark	well that's a whole new thing with lots of implications ...
12:09	technomancy	IIRC the java7 backport of javafx isn't licensed for redistribution
12:10	hiredman	technomancy: is it a backport?
12:10	hiredman	technomancy: surely you mean the java6 backport
12:11	technomancy	hiredman: well I mean as distinct from the javafx that will ship with java8
12:13	hiredman	technomancy: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/overview/faq-1446554.html#10
12:15	technomancy	hiredman: I believe "subject to the terms and conditions of the license" means "you have to make the user click through a EULA" and thus it can't be distributed via a proper repository.
12:15	technomancy	"JavaFX is available under the same license and business model as Java SE" <- same reason oracle's JRE is no longer available via apt, etc.
12:16	wjlroe	oh. Oracle FTW
12:16	SegFaultAX\|work	For the wanking?
12:16	wjlroe	you decide
12:17	SegFaultAX\|work	Its got a nice ring to it. :)
12:18	pipeline	technomancy: not exactly
12:18	pipeline	oracle's JRE is unavailable via apt
12:18	pipeline	because java used to be available only under a VERY SMALL set of restrictions
12:19	pipeline	so Sun worked with open source distributors to come up with a magic special snowflake license
12:19	pipeline	JUST FOR a handful of linux distributions
12:19	pipeline	when openjdk came out, with a 99.9% complete java under a truly open free unencumbered license
12:19	pipeline	oracle shitcanned the special snowflake license
12:19	pipeline	and that was perfectly reasonable to do, since it had outlived its usefulness
12:19	technomancy	pipeline: sure, I'm just saying whatever reasons prevent Oracle's JDK from being available via apt apparently also apply to JavaFX
12:20	technomancy	I agree that redistributing Oracle's JDK via apt doesn't make sense when you can just use OpenJDK
12:20	pipeline	yeah
12:20	pipeline	and that's true
12:20	pipeline	but not a super helpful statement without context
12:21	pipeline	(and, like the jdk, there is a javafx project licensed under gpl)
12:21	technomancy	oh, now that I did not know. interesting.
12:21	wjlroe	I wonder - all the people using the JVM and automated orchestration of servers, do they all use the OpenJDK?
12:22	technomancy	wjlroe: pretty much
12:22	pipeline	technomancy: it's not nearly as active because outside vendors have a lot less reason to care. e.g. no redhat interest
12:23	technomancy	wjlroe: we use openjdk at heroku. we only recently have started to get people asking for Oracle JDK since we've started pushing "heroku for enterprises" where people are more interested in the brand name than the actual functionality.
12:23	cark	i've redone the domonad macro ... should i keep lispy and have (<- id (slget db-next-id)) or haskellish and have (id <- (slget db-next-id)) ?
12:23	cark	both a clear enough when reading the code
12:23	wjlroe	technomancy: oh interesting. You corrected detected I was actually asking about Heroku
12:24	technomancy	hehe
12:24	cark	technomancy: are you implying that openjdk is functionally equivalent or even better than oracle jdk ?
12:24	wjlroe	technomancy: we use the OracleJDK, but I'm not entirely sure why. In the projects I work on, it's Clojure apps anyway
12:25	technomancy	http://enterprise.heroku.com/ <- the set of people who ask for oracle is a subset of the people who want to contact a sales representative to get started with heroku instead of just installing the command-line client and creating apps themselves =)
12:26	wjlroe	technomancy: heh. Reasonable right? "git push heroku". No wait. Where's the release form?
12:26	technomancy	cark: last I heard (~3 years ago) there were a handful of differences in the codebase surrounding font rendering engines in gui apps due to patent concerns, but for server-side code IME they are completely indistinguishable apart from licensing.
12:27	TimMc	"process manifold"
12:27	TimMc	you're killing me
12:27	cark	technomancy: there is the thing, there is a world outside the server-side
12:27	wjlroe	technomancy: I would have thought lack of Safe Harbour would be a bigger concern to people than the enterprisey things
12:27	cark	tho java isn't very well suited for it
12:28	technomancy	TimMc: "I've reversed the polarity of the neutron flow; it should reduce the strain on the process manifold until we can get the ship's accelerator to push us into hyperspace!!!"
12:28	TimMc	s/hyperspace/IPO/
12:29	technomancy	cark: sure, understood. I don't know if the font rendering issue is still present in openjdk7; that's just the last time I heard about there being any appreciable difference.
12:30	cark	technomancy: i should maybe check openjdk ... though it's always trouble and doesn't make my code grow any faster =P
12:32	technomancy	back when we were stuck on oracle JDK we would have to manually plop some jars into the JDK dir because they neutered the strength of their crypto algorithms in order to comply with mid-90s US trade export laws =\
12:32	technomancy	("we" in this case not being heroku)
12:33	wjlroe	I remember those days
12:33	wjlroe	used to be a problem with all free software
12:34	technomancy	go USA!
12:34	wjlroe	yeah, that was super effective
12:35	_wingy	a fn body can consist of multiple forms right? just that the former ones have to have side effects
12:36	wjlroe	technomancy: as much as I love the graphics on your enterprise.heroku.com I feel it needs a geek.heroku.com with emacs screen grabs instead of eclipse ;)
12:36	wjlroe	"Full stack Clojure"
12:37	technomancy	wjlroe: actually internally we refer to the teams as "Hacker languages" and "Enterprise languages" =)
12:37	wjlroe	haha
12:40	wjlroe	Does anyone know of a good Clojure style guide? I'm tired of thinking
12:42	hiredman	~library
12:42	clojurebot	library is "Our class libraries have destroyed our brains." - rhickey
12:44	jcrossley3	wjlroe: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
12:45	wjlroe	jcrossley3: oh thanks!
12:53	Cheiron	Hi, in Mockito, how to code this in clojure? Mockito.verfiy(mock).doSomething() ?
12:53	hiredman	~mock
12:53	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:54	hiredman	clojurebot: objects?
12:54	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
12:54	hiredman	clojurebot: mock objects?
12:54	clojurebot	Your mock object is a joke; that object is mocking you. For needing it. -- rhickey
12:55	goracio	hello there :)
12:55	Cheiron	here is my attempt: http://pastie.org/4903462
12:56	technomancy	Cheiron: just wrap the method call in a function and use with-redefs
12:56	wjlroe	+1 with-redefs … also https://github.com/marick/Midje
12:56	Cheiron	may i ask for pastie ? i'm sorry to ask
12:56	technomancy	mockito is just a complicated workaround for shortcomings in the java programming language
12:57	goracio	question - is there any func for this : if element exist in vector ?
12:57	Cheiron	with midje i can do things similar to mockito?
12:57	technomancy	Cheiron: no need for a fancy library: (let [p (promise)] (with-redefs [mocked-fn #(deliver p %)] (do-stuff)) (is (= :expected-value @p)))
12:59	goracio	so for example [1 2 3] i want to know if there is 3 in this vector - maybe there is some heplful func ?
12:59	technomancy	,(some #{3} [1 2 3])
12:59	clojurebot	3
12:59	wjlroe	beat me to it
13:00	wjlroe	it still irritates me that you can't use contains? for this
13:00	wjlroe	but chest la vie
13:00	technomancy	contains? is a long-troll
13:00	wjlroe	c'est la vie .. I mean
13:00	Cheiron	technomancy: i'm sorry but i don't understand the line you posted :( sorry to ask
13:01	wjlroe	technomancy: you mean the authors of contains? are trolling us? heh
13:01	technomancy	Cheiron: it redefines the mocked function to be a function that just delivers to a promise. then you check the value of the promise to see that it received what you expected.
13:02	technomancy	wjlroe: yup
13:02	technomancy	wjlroe: how else do you explain the fact that it hasn't been renamed to has-key? and contains? left around as a deprecated alias?
13:03	technomancy	contains? exists solely to trick newcomers into thinking about big-o notation
13:03	wjlroe	technomancy: yeah. also confusingly you can use it to test for set membership. but not vector membership. war.
13:03	wjlroe	s/war/wat/
13:04	cemerick	technomancy: long troll ~= waging war on everything Sequential
13:05	cemerick	I don't think it's a coincidence that clojure.set includes a bunch of relational operations, etc.
13:06	cemerick	not that anyone uses them
13:06	hiredman	cemerick: and people reimplement it
13:07	hiredman	https://github.com/danlarkin/subrosa/blob/master/src/subrosa/database.clj
13:07	danlarkin	yeah but mine is totally sweet
13:07	wjlroe	ahaha
13:08	cemerick	hiredman: incompletely, I 'spose
13:08	cemerick	;-)
13:09	pjstadig	every sufficiently large irc server has a incomplete, bug-ridden, implementation of half of clojure.set
13:09	jcrossley3	cemerick: default port for nrepl? 7888?
13:10	cemerick	jcrossley3: That's the one I've been eyeballing
13:10	Cheiron	Hi, would you please have a look at this: http://pastie.org/4903537 i'm trying to mock
13:10	cemerick	~mock
13:10	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:10	cemerick	no rhickey mock quote?
13:10	danlarkin	pshhhhhhhh subrosa's database is distinct from clojure.set
13:10	technomancy	Cheiron: you can't redef a method, only a var
13:11	wjlroe	we totally haven't seen a rich hickey mock quote for 5 whole minutes
13:11	cemerick	oh, did I miss the fun?
13:11	cemerick	one of my favorites
13:11	wjlroe	:)
13:12	Cheiron	technomancy: i'm sorry but this is an advanced topic to me. i appreciate your time but how to fix it? thanks a lot
13:12	technomancy	Cheiron: you need to wrap the method call you want to mock in a defn
13:13	joegallo_	(defn to-string [s] (.toString s))
13:13	joegallo_	for instance
13:13	joegallo_	and then you can redef that
13:14	Cheiron	technomancy: you mean wrap it in the vector of with-redefs bindings or with-redefs body?
13:15	Cheiron	joegallo_: ok , will try this, thanks
13:19	Frozenlock	Weird... I can't seem to require this ring middleware https://github.com/amalloy/ring-gzip-middleware
13:19	Cheiron	joegallo_: any idea ? http://pastie.org/4903585
13:19	wjlroe	Frozenlock: gist/paste?
13:20	joegallo_	Cheiron: on line 7, you should be calling (get-string ...) not (.getString ...), for starters.
13:21	joegallo_	but the problem you have is that you're calling the TupleImpl constructor wrong.
13:21	Frozenlock	well I added it in my project dependencies [amalloy/ring-gzip-middleware "0.1.2"]. "Lein deps" Then in my REPL I try (use 'ring.middleware.gzip) but it says it's not on my classpath.
13:21	joegallo_	hence the illegalargumentexception
13:21	Frozenlock	On wait, do I need to re-start the REPL?
13:22	joegallo_	In this case, I'm guessing that you mean "... (TupleImpl. 0))" not "... (TupleImpl.) 0)"
13:22	Cheiron	joegallo_: the problem is TupleImpl takes a lot of params that are heavy to create https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/jvm/backtype/storm/tuple/TupleImpl.java i only want to mock the behavior of .getString
13:23	Cheiron	that is why i was trying to use Mockito
13:23	cemerick	Frozenlock: Yes, you need to restart the REPL after adding a dependency, unless you want to try your luck with e.g. pomegranate
13:23	joegallo_	Cheiron: okay, i guess, but the point is that you're trying to call a constructor that doesn't exist.
13:23	Cheiron	yes true
13:25	Cheiron	joegallo_: in this case i have to fallback to something like jmock or mockito?
13:26	joegallo_	sounds reasonable, given my highly limited view of the issue you're having
14:05	wingy	if Mac OS X was using functional programming instead of OOP would it be more stable?
14:06	wjlroe	only if functional programming is magical pixie dust
14:06	cark	it is !
14:06	emezeske	wingy: What, you mean, like, the kernel? Or libc? Or other parts of userspace?
14:06	wjlroe	then yes
14:06	wingy	emezeske: not something specific .. was just wondering
14:07	emezeske	wingy: Well, your question is impossible to answer
14:07	wingy	saw a video from 1990 when steve jobs said they are using OOP in NEXT to make softwares faster
14:07	wingy	productivity gain by 10 times faster
14:07	emezeske	wingy: To my knowledge, nobody has written a day-to-day-usable kernel in a functional language
14:08	wingy	would be cool if there was an operating system in FP heavily promoting it
14:08	wingy	datomic is a cool initiative
14:08	nDuff	...
14:08	cmiles74	wingy: I think they're talking about the productivity of NeXT engineers working on the product, not the product itself.
14:08	emezeske	wingy: There are functional kernels out there
14:09	wingy	cmiles74: yeah i know
14:09	wingy	FP is so cool and simple
14:09	nDuff	...
14:09	wingy	nDuff: what do you mean by ...
14:09	cmiles74	I'm not sure it follows that more productive engineers necessarily produce a more stable product. I mean, OOP prolly didn't make them better; mostly just more productive.
14:10	wingy	yepp
14:10	cark	i think the typical fp programmer is not very interested with bit twidling, so not many are trying
14:10	emezeske	wingy: FP is not a panacea
14:10	nDuff	wingy: It's hard to come up to anything to say that isn't going to devolve into a much larger discussion.
14:10	nDuff	wingy: Many of the pieces of FP that actually apply to OS kernels are already practiced in the design of message-passing microkernels.
14:10	nDuff	wingy: ...some pieces simply don't apply by nature -- working with hardware means mutating things, by design.
14:11	nDuff	wingy: ...but it's a discussion that would need to happen with more grounding -- if you're asking the question at this level, it means you don't have enough background to discuss it.
14:11	wingy	i dont .. i was just curious
14:12	emezeske	wingy: The answer to your original question is: nobody has a clue, because nobody has rewritten OS X in a functional language.
14:12	wingy	yeah
14:15	goracio	@wingy
14:15	goracio	:wingy
14:15	wingy	goracio: yeah?
14:16	goracio	wingy:
14:16	goracio	trying to insert your name :)
14:16	wingy	using iPad? :)
14:16	goracio	Xchat ubuntu
14:16	wjlroe	wingy: the closest OS I can think of, although a research project, is Coyotos, written in BitC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyotos
14:16	wjlroe	but obv nobody uses that
14:20	Sgeo	Would it be at all sensible to use a Java implementation of socket.io with Clojure?
14:20	Sgeo	Ring etc.?
14:22	wjlroe	Sgeo: you can probably use https://github.com/ztellman/aleph for websocket server support
14:22	Sgeo	wjlroe, but I need a fallback for clients that don't support websockets, because the stock Android browser sucks like that :(
14:22	hammer	so is anybody using clojure-maven-plugin to unit test a maven project and putting the test reports in the maven site?
14:23	wingy	does anyone know how to fire up a clojure shell for datomic? http://docs.datomic.com/getting-started.html
14:23	duck1123	Sgeo: I'd be interested to know if you ever come up with anything for socket.io for clojure
14:23	wjlroe	Sgeo: yeah, have to work out how to fall back to long polling and all that - dunno about that
14:23	TimMc	hammer: Nice idea. Haven't heard of anyone doing that, though.
14:24	duck1123	I'm using aleph, but I'm also hit by the browsers that don't support websockets
14:24	wjlroe	you can just fall back to ajax for non-websockets
14:25	hammer	yeah my issue is the test-with-junit reports aren't readable by surefire, and i haven't figured out a way to take the old-style junit reports and get them in the site
14:27	antares_	technomancy: can you recommend a good S3 clojure client?
14:27	Sgeo	wjlroe, but a library that did that for you would be nice
14:27	Sgeo	BrowserChannel looks nice but doesn't support websockets at all :(
14:27	technomancy	antares_: I just call jets3t; it's got a reasonable API
14:28	technomancy	not sure it's worth bothering wrapping it
14:28	wjlroe	Sgeo it would be nice, but would have a very limited shelf-life. non-websocket-capable clients won't be around forever, so it's a stopgap
14:28	duck1123	wjlroe: What about IE?
14:28	Sgeo	Why is stock Android browser non-websocket-capable :(
14:29	hiredman	props3t!
14:29	technomancy	hiredman: oh yeah, did you finish that?
14:30	wjlroe	duck1123 IE 10 has them. so limited shelf-life. basically IE lags behind the most, but at some point you can reasonably say, basically nobody uses these clients
14:30	hiredman	finish?
14:30	hiredman	it works
14:30	technomancy	vaguely recall there was something keeping you from deploying a release
14:31	hiredman	great, the github readme drops the TODO header from the todo section
14:31	hiredman	so the TODOs look like a list of features
14:31	TimMc	haha
14:31	technomancy	heh, I was wondering about that
14:31	TimMc	THat's fantastic.
14:31	hiredman	https://raw.github.com/hiredman/propS3t/master/README.org vs https://github.com/hiredman/propS3t/blob/master/README.org
14:32	technomancy	github's org support is a lost cause. sorry to break it to you =\
14:32	technomancy	it's just rubbish
14:32	hiredman	I am aware
14:35	TimMc	Are they using an open source module for that?
14:35	technomancy	yeah, a ruby gem
14:36	cemerick	TimMc: Don't bother. PR's were submitted for the asciidoc support, and they were ignored.
14:36	cemerick	Markdown For Life, apparently.
14:37	TimMc	On that note, does anyone know if it's possible to write an escape-for-markdown function?
14:37	cemerick	s'okay, github sucks for content anyway…
14:37	TimMc	Or is Markdown too shitty for that?
14:37	gfredericks	TimMc: you're wondering if it supports all possible strings?
14:38	wingy	bin/repl to start the clj shell
14:38	cemerick	TimMc: Yes is the answer to any "Is Markdown too shitty for X?"
14:50	TimMc	gfredericks: Something like that, yes.
14:50	TimMc	It's more complicated, since you probably have to write different escapers for link text, table text, etc.
14:55	gfredericks	yeah that crazy
14:55	Cheiron	it is possible to use reify to subclass and define new properties?
14:56	Cheiron	define new properties for the subclass
15:01	joegallo_	iirc reify only works with interfaces and Object
15:01	joegallo_	well, and protocols
15:01	joegallo_	so subclassing is right out
15:01	joegallo_	but i could be totally wrong on that
15:02	Cheiron	joegallo_: yep true http://clojure.org/datatypes
15:02	technomancy	Cheiron: somehow I get the feeling you're making things more complicated than they need to be
15:02	michaelr525	good evening
15:02	Cheiron	technomancy: possibly :D I falled back to mockito and now i need to subclass a class a define a new property for it
15:03	technomancy	you're describing a proposed solution rather than a problem
15:04	Cheiron	with reify i can implement an anonymous type and create and instance of it. but is it possible to define a new instance variable for the subclassed type?
15:06	joegallo_	you can close over any data that you want
15:06	joegallo_	,(let [a (atom 0) o (reify Object (toString [this] (swap! a inc) (str @a)))] [(str o) (str o)])
15:06	clojurebot	["1" "2"]
15:07	joegallo_	for instance, here i've closed over the atom a.
15:07	joegallo_	but i didn't need to create a new property to do that.
15:07	joegallo_	so i'm with technomancy on this one
15:07	Cheiron	yep true
15:07	abalone	hm. i just went through a wizard for choosing an open source license and it didn't ask me whether i cared about derivative works including my name somewhere. but that's all i care about :-P
15:08	abalone	i guess if no one knows my name, then they can't curse me
15:08	Iceland_jack	damn that abalone
15:20	ForSpareParts	Is there a good way to thread a value through a list of functions at runtime, analogous to the -> macro?
15:20	ForSpareParts	Alternate question: should I not be trying to do that?
15:21	rmarianski	you may be able to use reduce for that
15:21	scriptor	ForSpareParts: as in if you're given a collection of functions?
15:22	ForSpareParts	scriptor: Yeah.
15:22	scriptor	I think I asked for something like that before, you'd have to create a variant of reduce
15:22	ForSpareParts	interesting
15:23	TimMc	ForSpareParts: comp
15:24	ForSpareParts	TimMc: Ah, yeah. That looks about right.
15:24	ForSpareParts	Thanks!
15:24	scriptor	oh, right, reduce is only needed if you're going through another collection of values as well
15:24	TimMc	&(let [fns [inc #(mod % 3) #(* % %)] ((apply comp fns) 4)))
15:24	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
15:26	TimMc	&(let [fns [inc #(mod % 100) #(* % %)]] ((apply comp (reverse fns)) 104)) ;; reverse makes it better
15:26	lazybot	⇒ 25
15:30	TimMc	&(let [fns [inc #(mod % 100) #(* % %)]] (reduce #(%2 %1) 104 fns)) ;; using reduce
15:30	lazybot	⇒ 25
15:31	oskarth	Running "lein ring server-headless" => could not find myapp/core.clj. The source code is in src/clj/myapp/core.clj and I've set :source-path to "src/clj" in project.clj. How do I get lein-ring to find core.clj?
15:32	metajack	Is ring-devel 1.1.x broken? It seems to fail to compile due to some issue in hiccup: https://gist.github.com/2427322f1de61f1811c5
15:33	andrewmcveigh_	oskarth: which lein version are you running?
15:33	oskarth	andrewmcveigh: lein2
15:34	oskarth	(preview6)
15:34	metajack	oskarth: then you want :source-paths ["src/clj"]
15:34	andrewmcveigh_	oskarth: then you should use the key :source-paths ["src/clj"]
15:34	oskarth	oh!
15:35	metajack	maybe lein should yell about :source-path in lein2. that seems to trip everyone up
15:35	oskarth	thanks metajack and andrewmcveigh
15:38	wingy	datomic users: is it possible to change schema dynamically?
15:39	wingy	my users will add attributes on the fly
15:43	ordnungswidrig	wingy: do you need the attributes or will a single attribute with a map value do?
15:43	ordnungswidrig	wingy: {:custom-attr-a "foo" :cutstom-attr-b "bar"} vs. {:custom-attrs {"a" "foo" "b" "bar"}}
15:44	wingy	ordnungswidrig: i dont get your question
15:44	wingy	i c
15:44	wingy	hm
15:44	wingy	ordnungswidrig: what are the pros and cons with these? or are they equivalent feature wise?
15:45	wingy	one thing i need is full text search working for each attribute
15:47	ordnungswidrig	wingy: so you need every attribute as a first class attribute then, datomic does not support map as values and text search / query. AFAIK.
15:48	wingy	i c .. too bad
15:48	ordnungswidrig	wingy: but to my understanding adding an attribute in datomic is common and leightweight.
15:48	wingy	cool
15:48	wingy	thats all that matters that i can add/remove attrs
15:49	ordnungswidrig	wingy: attributes are "installed" one by one anyways.
15:50	cemerick	wingy: you can't remove them
15:50	cemerick	Or, you can, but things go sideways somehow IIRC
15:50	wingy	yeah sounds logical since some entities are having those attrs
15:50	wingy	no probs anyway .. the most important part was adding them
15:52	wingy	im not familiar with java .. if i want to add a Price attribute, which of the following types should I use in Datomic: long, bugint, float, double or bigdec
15:52	SegFaultAX\|work	Heh, bugint.
15:52	SegFaultAX\|work	Fits large numbers of insects.
15:53	SegFaultAX\|work	Or conversely, errors out anytime you try and use it.
15:53	SegFaultAX\|work	I'll just let myself out.
15:53	wingy	long, bigint, float, double or bigdec
15:55	SegFaultAX\|work	wingy: Double or bigger.
15:55	cemerick	wingy: read: http://docs.datomic.com/schema.html
15:55	wingy	yeah im reading it
15:56	wingy	double then
15:57	xeqi	double for a price?
15:57	wingy	xeqi: something wrong?
15:57	emezeske	I thought it was generally recommended to avoid use of floating point for money
15:57	xeqi	its inaccurate
15:57	xeqi	sorry, double cannot accurately hold some prices
15:57	xeqi	(inc emezeske
15:57	wingy	bigdec?
15:57	xeqi	(inc emezeske)
15:57	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:58	SegFaultAX\|work	Which would matter if it was a balance.
15:58	SegFaultAX\|work	For a fixed floating point value, don't you think a double is precise /enough/?
15:58	SegFaultAX\|work	(Mixed terms there. Static floating point value eg 19.99)
15:59	ToBeReplaced	i would use the base unit of the currency and store in bigint if i could assume that you can't have fractional units
15:59	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: I think that's still a bad idea
15:59	cemerick	,(- 19.99 1.89)
15:59	clojurebot	18.099999999999998
15:59	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: E.g. you can't store 0.1 exactly using binary
16:00	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: Err s/using binary/using a floating point rep
16:00	emezeske	cemerick: Thank you.
16:00	ToBeReplaced	,( -1900 189) ;wink!
16:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
16:00	SegFaultAX\|work	Hmm, for a price I wouldn't have thought it mattered.
16:00	SegFaultAX\|work	I'm sold though.
16:01	SegFaultAX\|work	(See what I did there?)
16:01	ToBeReplaced	<3
16:01	wingy	so what type should i use?
16:01	emezeske	wingy: BigDecimal, int, or long, depending on how you want to approach the problem
16:02	emezeske	wingy: probably BigDecimal
16:02	wingy	ok
16:02	wingy	thx for the discussions
16:03	cemerick	wingy: You should probably try to fully grok http://docs.datomic.com/schema.html lest random irc advice doesn't pan out one of these days.
16:04	emezeske	wingy: Do what cemerick says ^^. It's a bad idea to blindly follow my advice (I can tell you this from firsthand experience).
16:04	emezeske	Especially when they're money involved, you want to be careful. :)
16:04	wingy	yeah but it says nothing about what is suitable for pricing :)
16:04	wingy	yepp
16:04	cemerick	Well, it doesn't give you the code you need to write for your app, either…
16:04	SegFaultAX\|work	,(- (BigDecimal. 19.99) (BigDecimal. 3.99))
16:05	clojurebot	15.9999999999999982236431605997495353221893310546875M
16:05	wingy	im just doing a prototype though .. some more experienced with banking/money will handle the money part
16:05	SegFaultAX\|work	Well, that's not what I expected.
16:05	amalloy	don't use bigdec
16:05	wingy	what usually do people use for price then
16:05	amalloy	to handle money properly, use an integral number of cents (or tenths of a cent, or however low you want to go)
16:06	ordnungswidrig	wingy: always count in pennies
16:06	wingy	good idea :)
16:06	SegFaultAX\|work	That's how I handle balances. In pennies or fractions thereof.
16:06	ordnungswidrig	wingy: or, if necessary in millipennies.
16:06	wingy	hmm
16:06	wingy	or ratios?
16:06	SegFaultAX\|work	For simple static floating point values, I usually don't care.
16:06	amalloy	wingy: usually they use doubles, and then someone steals from them
16:07	ordnungswidrig	wingy: it's like handling time. always use seconds/ms since epoch. Delay conversion into other representation until the view layer
16:07	wingy	yeah
16:07	wingy	is that how you do localization
16:07	wingy	one currency in system, then converts it on view layer?
16:08	cemerick	I'll bet pjstadig has a way to implement currency arithmetic using UUIDs…
16:08	pjstadig	UUIDs solve everything
16:08	SegFaultAX\|work	If you want to store arbitrarily precise monies, just store the denominator. 100/100 = $1 1000/100 = $10 100/1000 $0.10
16:09	SegFaultAX\|work	That way if some point in the future you have to change the scale, you can do it without having to guess what the original scale was.
16:09	SegFaultAX\|work	There was a DailyWTF on this topic I think.
16:09	ordnungswidrig	SegFaultAX\|work: like fp-arithmetic.
16:09	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: ##(- (BigDecimal. "19.99") (BigDecimal. "1.89"))
16:09	lazybot	⇒ 18.10M
16:10	cemerick	pjstadig: you could even table every possible operation, and make all that math really fast
16:10	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: Your example initialized BigDecimals with doubles
16:10	ordnungswidrig	so a pair [381,-2] => 3.81?
16:10	SegFaultAX\|work	emezeske: Oh is that what I did wrong? :)
16:10	wingy	ordnungswidrig: so you use milli/pennies with long or bigint?
16:10	pjstadig	definitely floating points are wrong for prices, you want bigdecs
16:10	ordnungswidrig	wingy: depends on your prices ;) long should be enough.
16:10	ordnungswidrig	wingy: in most cases
16:10	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: The doubles lost the precision, and the bigdecs were initialized with that imprecise value
16:10	pjstadig	and maybe to tune the math context so you're getting the right rounding and such
16:11	SegFaultAX\|work	emezeske: I understand. I just didn't expect it at first.
16:11	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: Sure! When I saw your example I was confused for a second too.
16:11	ordnungswidrig	bigdecimals are fine, depends on the memory / storage constraints.
16:11	SegFaultAX\|work	emezeske: It's obvious once you think about it for more than 2 seconds, though. :)
16:11	wingy	wow a lot of things to think about .. is that how java made it simple :)
16:12	emezeske	,(- 19.99M 1.89M)
16:12	clojurebot	18.10M
16:12	emezeske	There we go. I didn't know about the M suffix.
16:12	wingy	ok bigdec :)
16:13	emezeske	wingy: What are you building? Some kind of shopping thing?
16:13	wingy	emezeske: the next amazon
16:13	SegFaultAX\|work	wingy: So you're the guy...
16:13	emezeske	wingy: Ambitious! :)
16:13	wingy	yes
16:13	ordnungswidrig	oh dear, java 7 javadocs are an attack on my eyes.
16:13	wingy	i am
16:13	wingy	the one!
16:14	SegFaultAX\|work	wingy: Good luck, Neo.
16:14	ordnungswidrig	and it is no complected.
16:14	wingy	im starting to believe...
16:14	callen	so, why does there seem to be enmity for macros among clojurians?
16:14	SegFaultAX\|work	Do we actually get to use "complect" in sentences now?
16:14	callen	no, stop it.
16:14	emezeske	callen: Because macros are harder to work with than functions
16:14	callen	it means to weave or plait something together using a loom.
16:15	pjstadig	callen: there is no enmity, just to prefer functions first and use macros only when necessary
16:15	callen	emezeske: as a Lisper, that makes me intensely uncomfortable that you're not willing to embrace macros.
16:15	ordnungswidrig	btw. bigdecimal uses 36+x bytes of memory (in case somebody cares)
16:15	SegFaultAX\|work	(inc pjstadig)
16:15	lazybot	⇒ 3
16:15	ordnungswidrig	pjstadig: +1
16:15	emezeske	callen: Sigh. As a lisper, you should understand the disadvantages.
16:16	ordnungswidrig	lazybot: y u not understand my syntax?
16:16	callen	everything has a trade-off, a cultural bias that is categorically against the use of macros except in some imaginary extreme case concerns me.
16:16	pjstadig	~55
16:16	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:16	pjstadig	hmm
16:16	amalloy	~#55
16:16	emezeske	callen: I don't know where you got this "categorically against the use of macros" business
16:16	clojurebot	55. A LISP programmer knows the value of everything, but the cost of nothing. -- Alan J. Perlis
16:16	callen	emezeske: I did CL, I've had my share of bad macros.
16:16	emezeske	callen: The only advice I ever hear is: start with functions, only use macros if necessary
16:16	pjstadig	amalloy: thx
16:17	nDuff	callen: It seems like solid advice to me, but then, I've had a lot of recent experience being bitten by 3rd-party libraries full of things that aren't composible on account of being implemented as macros.
16:17	callen	emezeske: seems reasonable on the face of it. I'm just concerned that if I ask for help with a macro, I'll just get told to not bother until I replace it with a function.
16:17	nDuff	...not that the extreme cases don't exist.
16:17	callen	nDuff: we had this discussion.
16:17	nDuff	Yes, we did.
16:17	technomancy	callen: why not worry about that when it happens?
16:17	pjstadig	callen: you will be told that if you're doing it wrong
16:17	emezeske	callen: Why don't you complain when that actually happens, rather than pre-complaining about a thing you think might happen?
16:17	callen	nDuff: I'm still unconvinced by your unabomber reaction to that library.
16:17	technomancy	emezeske: jinx
16:18	emezeske	technomancy: lol
16:18	scriptor	callen: if the macro can be replaced with a function then people will tell you to use a function instead, yes
16:18	callen	emezeske: technomancy because I've had to deal with intransigent language communities before and it infuriates me.
16:18	nDuff	callen: Hmm. Was the "OK, that's reasonable" response (after pointing out the lack of extensibility) a "fine, go away" then?
16:18	callen	emezeske: notably: #python in particular.
16:18	scriptor	although, I've seen people actually write out the function alternative on here before
16:18	pjstadig	if the programmer sees many different programming language communities as intransigent, then it is he who is intransigent
16:19	Sgeo	Is using doto in a -> a reasonably idiomatic way to do a quick side-effect in a -> chain?
16:19	amalloy	callen: i can imagine communities becoming intrangisent when confronted with a belligerent complainer
16:19	callen	pjstadig: just try dealing with #python.
16:19	technomancy	Sgeo: sure
16:19	pjstadig	hehe
16:19	SegFaultAX\|work	callen: Python are legion.
16:19	amalloy	Sgeo: yes
16:19	callen	#go is guilty of this too.
16:19	callen	amalloy: no, if you go to them with code that you need help getting to work, and if it deviates from what they perceive as being the "python way", even if there's a legitimate specific case reason for doing so, they won't help you until you change it.
16:20	callen	even if you can prove it's not the origin of any bugs in that case.
16:20	pjstadig	anyway, no one is against macros, but i've seen people get tripped up over libraries that contain macros, and are therefore not composable
16:20	cemerick	I guess we're preemptively intransigent.
16:20	pjstadig	especially newbs
16:20	callen	in contrast, #haskell and #ruby have in my experience been pretty accommodating/open-minded.
16:20	SegFaultAX\|work	callen: But we want you to correct /and good/ code.
16:20	callen	SegFaultAX\|work: and #haskell doesn't?
16:20	nDuff	callen: The "avoid macros" advice is something which has evolved in the community over time.
16:20	callen	SegFaultAX\|work: they're the penultimate fascists of code correctness.
16:20	nDuff	callen: If you haven't been here long enough to see that evolution -- and it's an over-the-course-of-years thing, it may seem caprecious.
16:20	callen	SegFaultAX\|work: they're just easier to talk to than python people.
16:21	pjstadig	callen: what is your macro question? do you have a macro you need help with?
16:21	callen	nDuff: I've dipped in and out of Clojure over the years, never really immersing because I wasn't sure if I wanted to come to grips with the Java ecosystem.
16:21	Sgeo	There are cases in Clojure where you can use a function but in Haskell you'd be forced into a macro.
16:21	callen	pjstadig: I'm trying to gauge community, not code.
16:21	nDuff	callen: ...that said, there's solid reasoning and experience behind it. There's was a talk at the conj on the subject a few years ago, if you're interested.
16:21	technomancy	callen: CLers also agree you shouldn't write a macro where a function will do, except for that subset of CLers who came starry-eyed from paul graham's tales of viaweb's 25%-macro codebase
16:21	callen	nDuff: yeah, he's part of the reason I'm worried you guys have a bias against macros to begin with.
16:21	technomancy	an experienced lisper would be horrified at that kind of number
16:22	callen	technomancy: I know that.
16:22	cemerick	callen: cgrand gave the canonical talk on "functions first, then macros as necessary" at the first conj. I'll just presume you're not grouping him in with these "fascists" you're worried about.
16:22	callen	technomancy: I only ever used CL macros as a terminal API, there were always underlying functions (90%++) that could be invoked for composability.
16:22	nDuff	callen: And that's fine.
16:22	technomancy	callen: ok, so you're in complete agreement with the clojure community
16:22	technomancy	next?
16:22	nDuff	callen: Nobody here, including me, is arguing against that kind of use case.
16:22	pjstadig	callen: have you seen the talk? because i'm very disappointed in the way people have misinterpreted it simply from the title and a complete ignorance of its content
16:22	callen	function composition is to varying degrees the basis of my Python code, but absent the benefit of the macros to clean it up.
16:22	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: I kind of have mixed emotions about it. It sounds like they basically built an entirely new tool for their work. So after a while it wasn't really CL... it was Viaweb lisp.
16:23	callen	SegFaultAX\|work: it was a ton of C code too.
16:23	callen	SegFaultAX\|work: that's one thing that seems to get ignored.
16:23	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: Not unlike Honeywell Pascal being a specific Pascal for Honeywell automation systems.
16:23	SegFaultAX\|work	I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. But it doesn't /seem/ terrible outright.
16:24	SegFaultAX\|work	I mean, you might say they built a DSL for their business. If that provided value and expediance, where is the harm in that? Objectively speaking.
16:24	Sgeo	For what it's worth, I think -> is an overuse of macros, but the community seems to disagree
16:24	amalloy	Sgeo: -> isn't even a use of macros. it is a macro, and it's up to you to use it
16:25	SegFaultAX\|work	Sgeo: Dunno, I kinda wish -> wasn't syntax. Or at least a proper thrush combinator.
16:25	Sgeo	SegFaultAX\|work, yeah
16:25	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work: because the 25% number seems insanely high and leads me to believe they're inventing their own language for the sake of being different.
16:25	ToBeReplaced	i just asked on SO about ->... it's driving me nuts at the moment
16:25	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: Without looking at their code or working there, I have no opinion on that claim.
16:26	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: But again, if it allowed them to be successful, who cares? They extended their tool around their domain.
16:26	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work: of course it's their own business, but pg writes as if that's a normal everyday thing
16:27	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: Hmm, that's not been my interpretation of his articles on the matter. Just my $0.02
16:27	BeLucid	Anyone able to help out with a noir on Heroku issue?
16:28	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: My real question is: why is that mentality objectively wrong?
16:28	BeLucid	I've got a simple little app that runs fine locally... seems to start up OK on Heroku as well, but then it seems to start a 2nd instance on the same port
16:28	callen	I'm sorry if I caused any friction, I'm just trying to understand where the community stands on things I'm concerned about.
16:28	BeLucid	not sure what's causing the second instance
16:28	BeLucid	here's a gist comparing local w/ Heroku https://gist.github.com/4e2f3148c0fb4bec55d5
16:29	SegFaultAX\|work	BeLucid: What gives you that impression?
16:29	callen	technomancy emezeske sorry.
16:29	ToBeReplaced	SegFaultAX\|work: usually, companies create languages because the market isn't meeting their needs and later discard them, like SCUMM at LucasArts... did viaweb eventually pitch their DSL or just keep running?
16:29	technomancy	BeLucid: I can take a look
16:29	callen	ToBeReplaced: it kept getting used at Yahoo for a long time until the code was eventually refactored out.
16:29	technomancy	BeLucid: you're probably not honoring the $PORT environment var?
16:29	callen	ToBeReplaced: supposedly, some of it still runs.
16:29	callen	ToBeReplaced: I can't speak to the lifespan of it or what percentage lived on.
16:29	ToBeReplaced	interesting
16:29	BeLucid	I think I am... the line I'm starting noir with is: (server/start (Integer/parseInt (or (System/getenv "PORT") "8080")))
16:29	SegFaultAX\|work	ToBeReplaced: IIRC, it was used extensively for quite some time after they were acquired by Yahoo. Is mass adoption the only measure of value?
16:30	SegFaultAX\|work	ToBeReplaced: They extended the language to create a custom tailored tool set to meet their needs.
16:30	BeLucid	it is ending up on 8080 from what I can tell from the output...
16:30	SegFaultAX\|work	ToBeReplaced: Which almost certainly would not map perfectly (or even well) to many or most other organizations.
16:30	BeLucid	which makes me think it's getting my default... not $PORT
16:30	technomancy	BeLucid: oh, I see what the problem is. you're starting the server on compile
16:30	technomancy	rather than putting it in -main
16:30	xeqi	BeLucid: its running the server during a compile, do you have some top level forms that start it?
16:31	BeLucid	ahhh... I see
16:31	ToBeReplaced	SegFaultAX\|work: no not at all... i'm completely in your camp here
16:31	BeLucid	umm... hmm
16:31	BeLucid	wonder what would be starting it during compile
16:32	technomancy	BeLucid: if you need help debugging you can pm me with the app name and I can take a closer look
16:32	BeLucid	ok, thanks
16:32	BeLucid	here is the project file...
16:32	BeLucid	https://gist.github.com/c9411f6b399ffecf3202
16:32	BeLucid	what are some candidates for me to look for? as to what would cause the startup at compile
16:33	technomancy	it's not the project file but the main ns that's at fault
16:33	technomancy	src/cookable/main.clj
16:33	SegFaultAX\|work	BeLucid: Your projects core.clj for example.
16:33	BeLucid	so... this makes some sense then
16:34	BeLucid	I do start the server in src/cookable/web.clj
16:34	SegFaultAX\|work	Shouldn't the buildpack do that for you?
16:34	BeLucid	which is the :main in my project file
16:34	technomancy	you need to start the server inside the -main function in that ns
16:34	BeLucid	k
16:35	BeLucid	I can try that., one moment.. many thanks
16:35	technomancy	BeLucid: in general, all top-level forms should start with def
16:35	technomancy	though I guess noir kind of breaks that convention out of the box =(
16:36	ordnungswidrig	shouldn't clojure-mode then higligh als (def*) toplevel forms like it does with defn?
16:37	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: What's the significance of -main over main?
16:37	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work: it means it'll get turned into a method if it's gen-classed, which is relevant since that's the only way to launch from the CLI if you make an uberjar
16:38	technomancy	so lein run just re-uses the same convention that's necessary for uberjar
16:38	SegFaultAX\|work	technomancy: Oh is uberjar not a term that Leiningen introduced?
16:39	SegFaultAX\|work	It's a thing outside of Lein?
16:39	BeLucid	wonderful... putting the noir server/start in -main did the trick
16:39	gfredericks	there was a maven uberjar plugin at some point
16:39	ordnungswidrig	SegFaultAX\|work: it's even a java thing
16:39	BeLucid	seems that it did start one up at compile time w/o it
16:39	BeLucid	many, many thanks!
16:39	technomancy	BeLucid: cool, np
16:49	Sgeo	I wonder if I should try bringing one of the Java socket.io implementations into Clojure
16:51	Sgeo	Are there any stylistic guidelines on when to use a map as a function vs a keyword as a function?
16:52	clj_newb	Hi, I always see comments like ';;' thou the comment is a single ';', is this a kind of convention?
16:53	joegallo_	clj_newb: emacs treats ;; as a comment on a line by itself, and a ; as a comment at the end of a line, basically.
16:53	joegallo_	it's just a lisp convention, though, i think.
16:53	joegallo_	;; the next line is tricky
16:53	joegallo_	(println "foo") ; see, i told you
16:54	technomancy	clj_newb: it's an old lisp convention that predates clojure
16:54	technomancy	a lot of clojure people seem to be unaware of it
16:54	emezeske	technomancy: I seem to remember reading that more semicolons indicated emphasis (kind of like h1, h2, h3, etc)
16:54	emezeske	technomancy: Is that at all true?
16:55	emezeske	technomancy: well, s/true/a common convention that you've seen
16:55	joegallo_	emezeske: so sayeth the stackoverflow http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6365334/lisp-commenting-convention
16:55	emezeske	joegallo_: thanks!
16:57	clj_newb	so if I want to comment at the beginning of the line I use ;; and at the end a single ; Or it does not matter at all ?
16:57	pjstadig	clojure.core uses ';' in its header :(
16:58	joegallo_	clj_newb: there are no comment police
16:58	pjstadig	basically all of clojure's clojure source
16:59	amalloy	there's also http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Comment-Tips.html
16:59	Frozenlock	clj_newb: If you use a simple ';' on a line by itself, then press tab, it will displace it to the center of that line. ';;' will keep everything in place.
16:59	pjstadig	clj_newb: ;; should be used to comment out a whole line, and ; for comments at the end of a line FSVO 'should'
17:00	technomancy	emezeske: I think marginalia actually translates them into h3-ish things
17:01	clj_newb	thank you
17:01	technomancy	joegallo_: does that mean the position is open?
17:02	joegallo_	it's stuck in committee, we're worried about who watches the watchmen.
17:03	callen	for anybody else who's trying to make web apps in Clojure, this guy's articles are top-notch: http://www.vijaykiran.com/topics/programming/
17:04	callen	some of the best walkthrough, "survey of the landscape" intros to doing a web app in a new language I've ever seen.
17:04	vijaykiran	callen: :) thanks - I'm gonna update the articles to Clojure 1.4 and latest versions of library this weekend.
17:05	callen	vijaykiran: seriously though, it's not one of those dumb, "here's a 30 line hello-world example, kthxbai", you actually cover things like, "here's what I recommend for querying, for migrations, etc" and on down the line.
17:05	callen	vijaykiran: and the prose itself seems to be written with an understanding of what the learner will and will not know.
17:05	callen	vijaykiran: thank you so much for writing those.
17:06	callen	vijaykiran: if you're ever in the bay area, a beer on me :)
17:06	vijaykiran	callen: thanks, I'm glad that you found them useful :) if you find any problems - just add a comment, I'll try to keep them updated.
17:08	gfredericks	emezeske: what's the status on the cljs-version-configurability for cljsbuild? if there's work outstanding there I might like to hack at it tomorrow
17:09	emezeske	gfredericks: I think you can just put the clojurescript version you want in :dependencies in your project
17:09	emezeske	gfredericks: Someone told me that worked -- I haven't tested it myself
17:10	gfredericks	ah interesting
17:11	emezeske	gfredericks: If you confirm that works, let me know. Otherwise, I'd be open to a pull request (although I think it might not be straightforward to add that feature)
17:12	callen	vijaykiran: you're on a roll, your post on eshell and sudo solved an old problem I had in tramp that I'd previously been solving with some egregious hacks.
17:13	callen	http://www.vijaykiran.com/2012/07/21/editing-remote-sudo-files-from-emacs/ <-- this one.
17:17	callen	happy4crazy: learning clojure at hacker school eh?
17:18	happy4crazy	callen: mainly erlang and go, but yeah, some clojure too :)
17:30	mwillhite	if I have a function like this (fn blah [^clojure.lang.Atom config] stuff)
17:30	mwillhite	is the first element in the param vector a sort of type hint?
17:30	mwillhite	what is that?
17:30	hiredman	mwillhite: that is amazingly silly
17:30	TimMc	mwillhite: It's a type hint on the config parameter.
17:30	hiredman	(type hinting as an atom)
17:30	mwillhite	okay thanks
17:30	mwillhite	why is it silly?
17:31	TimMc	mwillhite: Because unless you're calling a (.method ...) on that atom, it doesn't do anything.
17:31	hiredman	because all operations on atoms are done via clojure functions, so there is no reflection to get rid of
17:32	mwillhite	ah yes I see
17:32	hiredman	everytime you want to recommend reading code as a good way to learn something like that pops up
17:33	hiredman	and you just sort of have to sigh
17:36	joegallo_	hiredman: i type hint everything and compile with --funroll-loops and --fomit-frame-pointer
17:36	joegallo_	it makes the lack of reflection even faster.
17:36	hiredman	don't forget -fPIC
17:36	joegallo_	oh, yeah, i mean, of course
17:37	hiredman	hah, tricked you, -fPIC will actually slow things down
17:38	emezeske	-funsafe-math
17:38	emezeske	Which I read as "fun, safe math."
17:39	cemerick	I thought -funsafe-math were JVM primitives…?
17:39	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: I think its -XXunsafe-math for the JVM
17:40	ordnungswidrig	or ist it -XX:+UnsafeMath?
17:41	joegallo_	hiredman: blast! now i have to recompile my whole machine!
17:41	ordnungswidrig	joegallo_: ksplice will safe you from reboot.
17:42	cemerick	ordnungswidrig: you tricked me into googling it :-P
17:42	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: gotcha!
17:42	ordnungswidrig	(inc ordnungswidrig)
17:42	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
17:42	ordnungswidrig	duh
17:52	devth	let's say I have an alias to some fn: (def foo map). how can I do (clojure.repl/source foo) and have it tell me the source for map? some kind of syntax quoting magic?
17:52	nDuff	devth: ...so, you need to copy the metadata on the var
17:53	devth	ahh
17:54	devth	i might be going about this wrong. what i'm really trying to do is get the source for a function name that's passed in as a string. (source (symbol "map"))
17:54	devth	but maybe i have the same problem in that case
17:55	ordnungswidrig	devth: maybe the symbol is missing the namespace
17:56	nDuff	...so, you just need to get the var associated with that name.
17:56	nDuff	do you know which namespace it's supposed to come from?
17:56	devth	i could require that the user pass it in. it's for use in a chatbot
17:57	devth	still not quite right: (source (find-var (symbol "clojure.core/map")))
17:58	ordnungswidrig	devn: have you looked at lazybot's source or clojurebot's?
17:58	devth	i have but i didn't think to look in this case. good idea.
17:59	Raynes	I'm not following.
17:59	Raynes	Why would devth want to look at lazybot's source?
17:59	devth	does lazybot do source lookups?
17:59	Raynes	Like for functions and macros?
17:59	devth	yeah
18:00	Raynes	It has a $source command that is completely broken because it links to github line numbers for an incorrect version of Clojure.
18:00	devth	ah
18:00	Raynes	And I'm too lazy to update it and amalloy is too lazy to even consider thinking about updating it.
18:00	devth	i'm trying to use clojure.repl/source to look up fns in core, given a string fn name
18:03	thorbjornDX	,(flatten (repeat 10 (range 3))) ;is this as simple as it can be? (I'm probably missing out on a core fn here)
18:03	clojurebot	(0 1 2 0 1 ...)
18:04	amalloy	:(((((( flatten
18:04	thorbjornDX	amalloy: that's why I'm asking :). I don't like using it either
18:04	amalloy	&(doc cycle)
18:04	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
18:04	thorbjornDX	amalloy: <3
18:05	Raynes	amalloy: Did you even know about cycle before I showed it to you?
18:05	amalloy	wat
18:06	Urthwhyte	Is there a way in lein to just have it default to the newest version of a dependency?
18:06	Raynes	That's really awful.
18:07	Urthwhyte	?
18:08	Urthwhyte	If you're just doing a one-off, or you know the library is stable it's a very sensible request
18:09	BrainBacon	Does anyone know if it's possible to send an expression to the current REPL in vimclojure? It seems like when I try it opens a new window with a repl response instead of sending it to the current repl.
18:09	Raynes	It's best to have a solid default. You don't know that your code will always work with new versions of things. I'm also pretty sure you'd have to use version ranges of some sort for that, http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html
18:14	BrainBacon	Does anyone even use vimclojure effectively or is it better to go with lein swank + slimv?
18:14	devth	swank + slimv works great for me
18:14	devth	i messed around with vimclojure first but never really got it working
18:15	thorbjornDX	BrainBacon: I use vimclojure, I don't play in the REPL much though, I just edit in the file buffer and select and <leader>eb to send it to be evaluated
18:15	BrainBacon	Yeah I got it working, but the workflow isn't quite what I thought it would b
18:15	jamii	Is there an easy way to see the bytecode that clojure outputs for a function?
18:16	thorbjornDX	BrainBacon: I don't like how the repl behaves too much, but \el \eb \ef have been very useful.
18:16	thorbjornDX	BrainBacon: though you have to reload everything once in a while to make sure your file is all in the right order :p
18:16	Urthwhyte	the REPL is definitely a little flaky
18:17	Urthwhyte	but it's worth it to keep using the same environment for editing everything from clojure to class notes
18:17	BrainBacon	eh maybe I'll just switch to slimv then
18:22	wingy	im sure this is a clojure thing .. i have a datomic entity but when evaluating it it returned just a map with an id
18:22	thorbjornDX	Apage43: evil scares me
18:22	wingy	but when looping it it returns all keys/values
18:22	wingy	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5491
18:22	wingy	why is this? and is it possible to return the whole map instead of me having to loop?
18:22	Apage43	wingy: That's normal. Datomic result maps are "lazy", in that they don't actually retrieve their component parts until you use them.
18:23	Apage43	wingy: use (touch) to force it to realize the whole map.
18:24	Apage43	http://docs.datomic.com/clojure/index.html#datomic.api/touch
18:25	wingy	Apage43: thx!
18:25	Apage43	Mind, the object is semantically the same object before and after touching it, so you don't need to do that to loop over it, compare it, etc.
18:26	wingy	yeah
18:26	wingy	Apage43: are there more use cases to use touch besides wanting to see the properties in the repl?
18:29	Apage43	wingy: hm.. If pr/pr-str also print the partial representation then I guess it's also useful for shipping entities out wholesale, if you need to to spit them off somewhere over some network protocol or something
18:29	Apage43	I forget if that's true or not, I think it may be
18:30	wingy	yeah they print out the partial representation
18:31	Apage43	well them that's where it'd be useful
18:31	wingy	yepp
18:31	Apage43	most other things are going to iterate it and realize it when necessary
18:37	cemerick	Urthwhyte: there are evil ways of doing what you want, but it's just not a good idea
18:38	Urthwhyte	Just going to download the latest verion of a bunch of libs and then symlink them into lib path
18:38	Urthwhyte	What could go wrong ;)
18:39	cemerick	:-O
18:39	cemerick	interesting, looks like kibit won't load at all if AOT-compiled stuffs are on the classpath
18:40	ohpauleez	cemerick: :( womp womp
18:42	cemerick	womp?
18:43	emezeske	cemerick: Sad trombone.
18:43	cemerick	ah
18:44	cemerick	I needed the terminal wooooonnh to catch that one. :-)
18:44	emezeske	It's totally three notes.
18:44	cemerick	"womping" has a particular meaning in my wife's family, which probably threw me off more than most
18:44	emezeske	Should I be afraid to inquire as to that particular meaning? >:)
18:44	SegFaultAX\|work	"Sad trombone" is so depressing.
18:45	technomancy	probably shooting womp rats
18:45	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work: Well, only in a melodramatic kind of way!
18:45	augustl	is there anything in ring to automatically handle servlet context paths somehow? I suppose not..
18:46	augustl	and I guess it's more of a routing question anyway (compojure in my case)
18:46	SegFaultAX\|work	augustl: What does that even mean?
18:47	cemerick	augustl: The ServletContext is in the request map if you're deployed in a container
18:47	cemerick	dunno if that help you
18:47	SegFaultAX\|work	What is a ServletContext?
18:48	cemerick	If you don't know already, don't bother. :-)
18:48	augustl	SegFaultAX\|work: java servlets has an API to "mount" the servlet to a specific context path, so that /myapp/foo calls myapp but with /foo as the path
18:48	augustl	cemerick: I see
18:48	augustl	perhaps there's some sort of standard for "servlet compatible ring handlers"
18:49	cemerick	augustl: ah, only if you're using defservice et al.: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj
18:49	cemerick	been a while since I was in that neighborhood
18:50	augustl	nice to see that there's something built-in for servlets at least
18:50	ohpauleez	Side-note - You forget how great controlled concurrency is once you have to go back to no concurrency :(
18:51	BrainBacon	augustl: what server are you trying to deploy to?
18:52	augustl	BrainBacon: haven't gotten that far :) Just investigating how good friends ring and servlets are
18:53	BrainBacon	augustl: I've been deploying to glassfish with clojure, I use a handler middleware in noir and I have a context lookup for getting resources
18:54	BrainBacon	augustl: https://bitbucket.org/bajesse/it354/src/79da51a2f28c/src/it354/server.clj
18:54	BrainBacon	augustl: you can see the fix base url middleware there
18:55	BrainBacon	augustl: https://bitbucket.org/bajesse/it354/src/79da51a2f28ccd372003b45dbad08670b74847b2/src/it354/views/utils.clj
18:56	BrainBacon	augustl: there's a function to fix absolute resource path lookups called add-context
18:57	augustl	took me a couple of extra brain cycles to grok line 19+20 :)
18:58	augustl	since the else wasn't on a separate line
19:07	BrainBacon	augustl: Oh, and I almost forgot you have to register the handler with ring as well https://bitbucket.org/bajesse/it354/src/79da51a2f28c/project.clj
19:08	BrainBacon	augustl: Anyway it comes out pretty nicely, you just use lein ring uberwar projectname.war and it will generate the package for you
19:21	Urthwhyte	So I'm doing something very stupid and trying to map a function across a line-seq to try and parse some data
19:21	Urthwhyte	doseq would be preferred to doall, right?
19:25	emezeske	Urthwhyte: doseq is for side-effects.
19:25	Urthwhyte	that was my understanding of the do* constructs
19:26	Urthwhyte	if I don't use some form of them my reader seems to close immediately
19:26	emezeske	Are you doing something like with-open?
19:27	Urthwhyte	yea
19:27	emezeske	A lot of people run into trouble using with-open -- the problem is if you use something like 'map, you might return a lazy sequence
19:27	emezeske	And then elements of that lazy-seq are realized outside of the with-open, later on
19:28	emezeske	And since you're outside with-open, the file is closed, and things blow up
19:28	emezeske	So you need to (by some means) ensure that you do all the I/O inside with-open, and don't return a lazy-seq that depends on the open file
19:28	Urthwhyte	ahh
19:28	Urthwhyte	of course
19:29	Urthwhyte	This is a ~10k text file where having everything in memory is fine, it's just me trying to get used to doing things idiomatically
19:29	emezeske	Depending on what you're doing, doall might be appropriate for that
19:30	Urthwhyte	I just totally blanked on thinking map would return anything other than a lazy-seq
19:31	Urthwhyte	Thanks for the help :)
19:31	emezeske	HTH.
20:49	holo	hi
20:49	holo	anyone here uses tools.cli actively?
20:50	holo	it's getting me crazy, this lib. i just.. don't get it
20:50	emezeske	Is there a specific problem you're having, holo?
20:51	holo	emezeske, this doesn't work: (let [[options args banner] (cli ["-f" "--faux" "bar" "The faux du fafa"] ["--help" "-h" "Show help" :default false :flag true])])
20:52	holo	like most combinations, i get something like: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: '-f' is not a valid argument
20:54	emezeske	That error message is unhelpful
20:54	emezeske	I notice that neither of the vectors you pass to cli seem to be in the format described in the README
20:54	emezeske	In the first vector, it looks like there are two description strings?
20:55	emezeske	And in the second vector, the docs say the -h switch should be before the --help switch
20:55	holo	my observational skills suck
20:55	holo	but regarding the "-h", it was before, that was just an experiment to check if something would come up
20:56	emezeske	Does the error persist if you correct the two things I pointed out?
20:58	holo	emezeske, yes, the error still persists. anyways, that "foo".. i wonder why i put it there, it kind of pisses me off such obvious event after many hours
20:59	emezeske	holo: So, the next thing I observe is that cli's first argument is supposed to be the argv vector passed to your program
21:00	holo	oh... now the docs start to make sense
21:00	holo	emezeske thanks ^^"
21:00	emezeske	HTH.
21:02	emezeske	holo: It's kind of a bummer that the tools.cli README doesn't at least hint about where the program's arguments might come from
21:02	casion	when using a binding with &, is there a way to unroll it in place?
21:03	casion	e.g. ((fn [& t] [[1 2] (vector t)]) 1 2 3 4) return [[1 2] 1 2 3 4]
21:03	holo	emezeske, actually i was kind of ovelwhelmed why there were some random "some" "--extra" "argument" in there. but my bias was strong, so i couldn't see through it
21:03	emezeske	holo: :)
21:03	casion	the actual code I'm dealing with is https://www.refheap.com/paste/5493 for more context
21:04	emezeske	casion: ##((fn [& t] (conj t [1 2])) 1 2 3 4)
21:04	lazybot	⇒ ([1 2] 1 2 3 4)
21:05	casion	emezeske: see the refheap, I need tags to be "unrolled", I can't think of a better word atm
21:06	casion	I'm struggling with how to even phrase my question, apologies if I'm not being totally clear
21:06	emezeske	casion: Does my snippet above not do what you want?
21:06	casion	emezeske: it does not
21:06	casion	emezeske: I guess it was a bad example to give, the refheap link makes it clearer I hope
21:06	emezeske	Well, the refheap doesn't show me what you want returned
21:08	casion	I'd like (tag-in-track xf uid :one :two :three) to be (select xf [[:MediaTrack (has [(attr= :uid uid)])] :one :two :three])
21:08	casion	rather than (:one :two :three)
21:08	casion	I was hoping there was a way to do it without making a macro of it
21:09	emezeske	My example above is what you want, I think
21:09	amalloy	i think he just wants apply
21:09	emezeske	haha
21:09	emezeske	amalloy: I can't see the forest for the trees :)
21:11	casion	I don't understand how I'd use apply in this situation
21:18	akhudek	I've noticed that most of the clojure validation libraries simply validate a map by key and return a set of errors
21:19	akhudek	However, I've found that I often want a "fail on first error" type behaviour.
21:19	akhudek	How do others solve this?
21:34	casion	ok, so the solution was indeed conj
21:35	casion	I didn't realize [& x] would be a list and conj would prepend to a list, so I ended up doing it in reverse order
21:43	casion	I'm actually very confused as to why this works now
22:32	Frozenlock	Lein deps fails with congomongo https://clojars.org/congomongo. Apparently the java-driver isn't found. How can I manually use it in my project?
22:33	cshell	what version are you using?
22:33	Frozenlock	lein or congomongo?
22:33	cshell	congo
22:33	Frozenlock	0.1.10
22:34	cshell	add [org.mongodb/mongo-java-driver "2.7.3"]
22:34	cshell	to your project
22:34	cshell	that might not be the latest version, but it's what i use
22:38	Frozenlock	Thanks, I'll try it immediately!
22:41	Frozenlock	Oh wait I have that. I must have screwed somewhere; lein deps also gets me congomongo 0.1.7, which requires mongo-java-driver 2.6.5 (missing).
22:50	AustinYun	is there any way to get pprint as a function that returns a string?
22:52	tmciver	AustinYun: not sure if there's a better way, but you could use ##(doc with-out-str)
22:52	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which out is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls."
22:52	xeqi	&(with-out-str (clojure.pprint/pprint {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
22:52	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
22:52	Sgeo	If I have a library in .NET that I want to use, should I try to get a ClojureCLR environment working, or should I try to use jni4net?
22:58	gert	ohpauleez: thanks for the quick reply to my shoreleave pubsub question!
22:59	ohpauleez	gert: No problem, more than happy to help
22:59	ohpauleez	And I know I've lacked a lot on the documentation
22:59	gert	I think shoreleave is very promising. I'm planning to use it in production. :)
22:59	ohpauleez	I think you may have found a bug, but it's easy enough to patch (having apply dispatch correctly)
23:00	gert	glad I could help by breaking it
23:00	gert	;)
23:00	ohpauleez	I have four systems in prod - two used an earlier first, two used the version that was released
23:00	ohpauleez	We don't use atoms for state a lot (we just switched over to that camp actually), so there is a chance that the pubsub is choking on it
23:01	gert	ah yeah. I started out with Clojurescript pretty much from scratch, and had my own data-binding thing going on with atoms and watchers
23:02	gert	now that I have a little more understanding it's easier to start using shoreleave. I love the idea of chaining (the subscribe-> function)
23:02	ohpauleez	yes, it's something we have working internally, just need to polish it up
23:03	ohpauleez	we inevitable do exactly what your examples does
23:03	gert	what kind of application are you using it for?
23:03	ohpauleez	t1 -> t2; t2 -> t3; ...
23:03	ohpauleez	so subscribe-> would be nice
23:03	ohpauleez	gert: Are you going to the conj?
23:03	gert	I wish!! I'm in New Zealand though
23:04	ohpauleez	oh right! I saw your site - ok. Here are some spoilers
23:04	gert	I love spoilers! :)
23:04	ohpauleez	the first system we built joins Google Map queries with SOLR queries, then hits our DB and calls and API server
23:05	ohpauleez	to search, filter, and analyze things in our DB
23:05	gert	nice one! that sounds interesting
23:05	gert	are Conj talks going to be online?
23:05	ohpauleez	but we wanted to test the theory: Can we put everything into dedicated servers and on a CDN, then run the app all on the client
23:05	ohpauleez	they're always recorded
23:06	amalloy	gert: eventually. last time it took around four months for them to all get up, maybe?
23:06	ohpauleez	and another one is a port of an existing Python system, to a mostly CLJS system, with project and code metrics
23:06	gert	I'll try to be patient. New Zealand is awesome, but it's so far away from where all the Clojure goodness is happening
23:07	gert	sounds good ohpauleez. I started building a frontend with Compojure, but client side apps are a lot more pleasant to program. Wrangling stateless http into something faux-stateful is just no fun
23:09	ohpauleez	I've found CLJ/CLJS to be a HUGE success - less effort, more flexibility, easy extension, shorter timelines, more dependable, better capacity
23:09	gert	I'm sold yes!
23:09	ohpauleez	than say a standard Python app, running on wsgi behind NGINX, with raw JS on the client
23:10	gert	I used Sproutcore (now Ember.js) before, but yeah.. javascript. :) With a backend in Clojure it makes sense to use Clojurescript
23:12	ohpauleez	for sure
23:14	AustinYun	i don't get why compojure.response/render takes two arguments
23:14	AustinYun	wait, is the second argument the request object?
23:15	AustinYun	(defprotocol Renderable (render [this request])) <-- why "this"?
23:17	AustinYun	ok looks like i got it, nevermind
23:17	gert	"this" is a Renderable object