2012-08-28
| 00:00 | tomoj | cjfrisz: had you learned well most of the set of manipulation commands? |
| 00:00 | cjfrisz | tomoj: Oh yes |
| 00:00 | cjfrisz | tomoj: I slurped and barfed with the rest of them |
| 00:00 | cjfrisz | Wait, I think that came out wrong... |
| 00:01 | tomoj | huh, that you hadn't is the only explanation I could think of |
| 00:01 | cjfrisz | I mean, I've been thinking I should try it again to remind myself |
| 00:01 | TimMc | cjfrisz: Did you ever use paredit-convolute-sexp ? :-) |
| 00:01 | TimMc | That command is baller. |
| 00:01 | cjfrisz | TimMc: I'm not sure |
| 00:01 | cjfrisz | TimMc: Maybe not |
| 00:01 | cjfrisz | What's it do? |
| 00:01 | TimMc | That's for reversing the nesting of e.g. an if and a let. |
| 00:02 | Frozenlock | I'm stuck. I have a 5 line function to write to the console and it doesn't work. :-( https://www.refheap.com/paste/4670 |
| 00:03 | TimMc | (let [foo bar] (if a b| c)) -> (if a b (let [foo bar]| c)) |
| 00:03 | ivan | Frozenlock: maybe it needs .-keyCode |
| 00:03 | cjfrisz | Ahhh |
| 00:03 | cjfrisz | Hadn't learned that one |
| 00:03 | TimMc | It's like transpose, but with parent-child relationships. |
| 00:03 | cjfrisz | That might make it worth my while to give paredit another shot |
| 00:03 | Frozenlock | ivan: No I tried it also. Btw, what is the '-' for? |
| 00:04 | TimMc | I suspect paredit becomes even more useful if you define your own macros. |
| 00:04 | ivan | property instead of method call, but I forgot the rules |
| 00:04 | ivan | so, any error? |
| 00:05 | Frozenlock | No, but it doesn't print anything in the log. |
| 00:05 | tomoj | what is dom/log ? |
| 00:05 | Frozenlock | clojure.browser.dom/log |
| 00:05 | cjfrisz | I've been in a quandary lately about the "programming my editor" business |
| 00:06 | Frozenlock | To print in the console. |
| 00:06 | cjfrisz | I used to do it quite a bit, but then I found a mentor who takes a very minimal approach |
| 00:06 | Frozenlock | And [goog.events :as events] [goog.events.KeyHandler :as KeyHandler] |
| 00:06 | tomoj | oh, I hadn't even noticed clojure.browser.{event,dom} |
| 00:06 | ivan | cjfrisz: you can stop programming your editor by using IDEA and fixing La Clojure ;) |
| 00:06 | cshell | Have you guys seen JSFiddle? http://jsfiddle.net/ - It looks like a better HTML/JS version of pastebin |
| 00:07 | cjfrisz | Wat |
| 00:07 | cjfrisz | What is that? |
| 00:07 | TimMc | cjfrisz: That, and I am gunshy of customization these days. |
| 00:07 | ivan | IDEA is JetBrains' IDE and La Clojure is the Clojure plugin for it |
| 00:08 | cshell | I've been thinking of helping out with LaClojure, but the IDEA plugin documentation is horrendous |
| 00:08 | cshell | however, there are a lot of good features in LaClojure |
| 00:11 | uvtc | How can I produce a loop such that one of the bindings in it cycles through some particular vector of values? |
| 00:12 | cshell | ,(for [x ["a" "b" "c"]] x) |
| 00:12 | cshell | ? |
| 00:12 | clojurebot | ("a" "b" "c") |
| 00:12 | casion | uvtc: (cycle) doesnt work? |
| 00:13 | uvtc | From inside the loop, I want to be able to call `recur` and get the *next one*. |
| 00:13 | casion | ah |
| 00:13 | cshell | ,(doc cycle) |
| 00:13 | clojurebot | "([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll." |
| 00:13 | cshell | that's cool |
| 00:13 | casion | you could just do (next cyclevar) |
| 00:13 | casion | I think? |
| 00:13 | uvtc | Yes, it seems like `cycle` would be involved ... but I'm not sure how to incorporate it. |
| 00:13 | casion | and past that in the recursion call |
| 00:13 | casion | pass* |
| 00:14 | tomoj | (loop [[head & tail] (cycle [1 2 3])] (recur tail)) |
| 00:18 | amalloy | tomoj's solution seems clearly pretty good, but there's probably a simpler approach to uvtc's problem that doesn't involve loop |
| 00:19 | uvtc | In my loop there's a collection that I'm paring down each time through, a data structure I'm building up, then a third item which I want to take on values in that cycle. |
| 00:19 | casion | (loop [x (cycle [1 2 3])] (recur (rest x))) works for me |
| 00:20 | amalloy | uvtc: so isn't it a reduce, or a reductions? |
| 00:20 | amalloy | every time i try to use reductions it turns out manual recursion is simpler, though, so maybe loop isn't the worst idea ever |
| 00:21 | uvtc | amalloy: will also see if I can use reduce. |
| 00:22 | tomoj | can you do reductions with a reducer? |
| 00:23 | amalloy | tomoj: i think that's just a transformation |
| 00:24 | amalloy | well, maybe not |
| 00:25 | tomoj | say (= (reduce __ [1 2 3 4]) [1 3 6 10]) |
| 00:25 | amalloy | tomoj: you can easily do that much |
| 00:26 | amalloy | but i'm not sure how you can *use* the reductions like you could use a lazy-seq reduction, eg to stop when the total is >= 40 |
| 00:26 | tomoj | so it should be (= (reduce __ (__ [1 2 3 4])) [1 3 6 10]) ? |
| 00:27 | tomoj | (reduce + (__ [1 2 3 4])) I guess? |
| 00:28 | tomoj | oh, duh, filling in the reducef above is trivial |
| 00:29 | tomoj | I wish defcurried and friends weren't private in jvm land |
| 00:29 | tomoj | in cljs they seem to be available without even requiring anything |
| 00:35 | TheBusby | any decent IRC bots publicly available in Clojure? |
| 00:35 | amalloy | $whatis source |
| 00:35 | lazybot | source is http://github.com/flatland/lazybot |
| 00:35 | TheBusby | amalloy: thank you! |
| 00:36 | amalloy | ~source |
| 00:36 | clojurebot | source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master |
| 00:46 | tomoj | curried ops are sometimes hard to make :( |
| 00:46 | tomoj | partition for example |
| 00:47 | tomoj | I guess in cases like that you just drop the currying and require partial |
| 00:50 | Sgeo | hmm |
| 00:51 | uvtc | amalloy, tomoj : Thanks for the help. This is what I came up with : https://gist.github.com/3495031 . It works. |
| 00:52 | casion | uvtc: thanks for posting the result |
| 00:52 | uvtc | Y/w. I'm not sure if it's the most elegant way to do it though. |
| 00:53 | casion | I'm working on something very similar |
| 00:54 | Sgeo | Giving the existence of partition, maybe I shouldn't complain that it's harder to write macros that take vectors with an even number of stuff over macros that group each pair of things |
| 00:55 | uvtc | casion: that code is just an extract of the program I'm working on. I'd actually like to take more care in selecting which student gets assigned to the current teacher (rather than just taking the first one). |
| 00:56 | uvtc | But I tried to boil down the problem in order to get feedback on the best way to do that cycling through the teachers bit. |
| 00:56 | uvtc | *to do that "cycling through the teachers" bit. :) |
| 00:57 | casion | uvtc: I'm pairing 2 collections so that with your example data I'd end up with [[A [ ad g j]] [B [b e h]] [C [c f i]]] |
| 00:57 | tomoj | (->> students (map #(array-map %1 #{%2}) (cycle teachers)) (apply merge-with clojure.set/union)) |
| 00:57 | casion | mistype, no quotes, but you get the idea |
| 00:57 | tomoj | maybe there is an even better way? |
| 00:58 | tomoj | in any case I think amalloy was right about loop :) |
| 00:58 | francis | Could someon point me to a good java irc channel? |
| 00:59 | samrat | having trouble understanding wison's maze(Clojure Programming)- https://gist.github.com/792959#L14. (keys paths) gives only either the x or the y coordinate, right? |
| 00:59 | samrat | Wilson* |
| 00:59 | tomoj | uvtc: oh, that wasn't the real problem, so maybe loop is still good for you? |
| 01:01 | uvtc | tomoj: Well, given the current teacher we're on, I'd *like* to pick a student, compute a score on how well they mesh with the student-pool so far, and if it's a bad fit, randomly choose another student... |
| 01:02 | tomoj | sounds loopy to me |
| 01:02 | uvtc | So, if the resulting group gets a negative score, choose another student. But if the resulting group gets zero or positive score, keep that student there and move on. |
| 01:02 | uvtc | Yeah, kinda' crazy, but ... |
| 01:02 | uvtc | ;) |
| 01:02 | tomoj | I mean (loop [])-y |
| 01:02 | uvtc | tomoj: That's what I thought too. |
| 01:02 | uvtc | :) |
| 01:02 | uvtc | Sounds `loop`y. |
| 01:02 | amalloy | francis: /join ##java |
| 01:03 | francis | amalloy: thanks |
| 01:04 | uvtc | tomoj: But, again, I was trying to boil it down to figure out how to do that cycling with the loop (and thanks for that `[head & tail]` suggestion, tomoj). |
| 01:07 | uvtc | (Gah, in my above comment, I *meant* "see how they mesh with the students already assigned to that teacher". Sorry. |
| 01:07 | uvtc | ) |
| 01:07 | clojurebot | ) is http://xkcd.com/224/ |
| 01:08 | uvtc | clojurebot, hah. Elegant weapons, for a more ... civilized age. http://xkcd.com/297/ |
| 01:08 | clojurebot | make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive |
| 01:09 | uvtc | Always has to get in the last word. |
| 01:12 | Sgeo | Would choosing Common Lisp for performance be sensible or naive? |
| 01:12 | casion | compared to what, in what context? |
| 01:12 | casion | on what architecture? |
| 01:12 | casion | etc.. |
| 01:13 | uvtc | ~performance |
| 01:13 | clojurebot | http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46 |
| 01:13 | Sgeo | I think I may be reluctant to consider the JVM to be "fast" |
| 01:14 | frio | er? |
| 01:14 | clojurebot | so I don't see where my understanding of 'do' is wrong. I have looked at the special forms page on clojure.org, but the explanation of 'do' is very short and it seems that my usage of it should be ok in this situation |
| 01:14 | uvtc | (Hm. I was just guessing clojurebot would share some wisdom on performance there. :) ) |
| 01:14 | frio | the JVM is very fast |
| 01:14 | frio | it's slow to start, admittedly, but it's widely regarded as being one of the fastest runtime environments |
| 01:15 | casion | jvm is quite fast |
| 01:15 | casion | and usually faster than CL |
| 01:15 | casion | though sometimes not |
| 01:16 | Sgeo | clojurebot, what situation? |
| 01:16 | clojurebot | excusez-moi |
| 01:16 | Sgeo | Is clojurebot sometimes human controlled? |
| 01:16 | Sgeo | Or was it just being weird? |
| 01:16 | frio | no :p |
| 01:16 | frio | it's just reading quotes, iirc |
| 01:16 | Sgeo | Now I'm curious what situation that person was referring to |
| 01:16 | frio | haha :) |
| 01:17 | Sgeo | (Also, is there a Clojure equivalent to prog1?) |
| 01:17 | uvtc | Clojurebot wishes it to be known that one should not meddle in the affairs of wizards ... or clojurebots. |
| 01:18 | Sgeo | clojuredocs is horrible. If I search for do, do is nowhere to be seen on the results page |
| 01:19 | uvtc | Sgeo: check the cheatsheet (under "special forms") |
| 01:19 | Sgeo | I know what it does, I wish clojuredocs search wasn't horrible. |
| 01:24 | tomoj | amalloy: https://gist.github.com/543a721f0f44cf48459d |
| 01:25 | tomoj | maybe it can be folded too? |
| 01:25 | Sgeo | And I still want a prog1 |
| 01:27 | tomoj | does the clhs description of prog2 contain a typo? http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_prog1c.htm |
| 01:28 | emezeske | Sgeo: As a workaround, you can search for ^do$ |
| 01:28 | emezeske | Sgeo: It is unfortunate that a direct match isn't ranked higher without that though |
| 01:29 | Sgeo | tomoj, yeah. I don't think any implementation does it like tha |
| 01:29 | Sgeo | that |
| 01:33 | Sgeo | I wonder if I should try to make a wrapper around some quantum random library |
| 01:34 | Sgeo | Would be interesting practice |
| 01:35 | uvtc | Oh, amalloy , thanks for posting that gist the other day re. the change counting function. :) Instructive. |
| 01:38 | amalloy | instructive is what i usually aim for. glad you found it useful |
| 01:40 | Sgeo | Would using with-redefs to make a macro to use a difference source of randomness for things such as shuffle be an abuse of with-redefs? |
| 01:40 | Sgeo | (Rather than me rewriting shuffle) |
| 01:54 | emezeske | Sgeo: I don't think with-redefs is recommended for use in non-test code |
| 01:54 | emezeske | Sgeo: It affects the Vars it swaps in all threads, which could cause some very weird things to happen |
| 01:54 | emezeske | Depending on your circumstances |
| 01:55 | emezeske | Probably the general tradeoffs about monkey-patching apply. |
| 02:24 | Sgeo | I wish I could (time lein repl) to see how bad it is |
| 02:26 | mk | Sgeo: startup? |
| 02:27 | Sgeo | Yeah |
| 02:27 | emezeske | $ time lein repl <<< exit |
| 02:27 | lazybot | emezeske: The time is now 2012-08-28T06:25:27Z |
| 02:28 | emezeske | lazybot: Thanks, but I think you may have missed the point :P |
| 02:28 | mk | you can probably manually time it |
| 02:28 | emezeske | Sgeo: ^ |
| 02:28 | mk | what emezeske said |
| 02:29 | Sgeo | I'm on Windows |
| 02:29 | emezeske | I'd like to give Windows the benefit of the doubt and assume there's an equivalent shell command |
| 02:29 | emezeske | But I'm wary of giving Windows too much credit |
| 02:30 | mk | Sgeo: google shell script system time. Then use a shell script to start lein repl up on a program that prints system time |
| 02:32 | mk | presumably this would add some overhead due to having to load that program |
| 03:42 | kral | namaste |
| 05:59 | augustl | is it possible to force a snapshot dependency download in leiningen? |
| 06:01 | xeqi | lein -U |
| 06:05 | augustl | xeqi: "Wrong number of arguments to [with-profile update,dev,user,default] task. " :) |
| 06:06 | augustl | updated to latest leiningen version, works just fine now |
| 06:06 | augustl | oh nvm, still not working.. |
| 06:11 | xeqi | augustl: are you giving it a task? |
| 06:12 | xeqi | `lein -U deps` for examp |
| 06:13 | augustl | xeqi: ah |
| 07:08 | ro_st | Raynes: any idea how i can get noir's code reloading to also pick up code in ./checkouts/* ? |
| 07:08 | ro_st | i already have (server/add-middleware reload/wrap-reload ["checkouts/Core/src"]) but it has no effect |
| 07:10 | ro_st | oh wait, that probably stops it from reloading in src |
| 07:15 | wjc | Hi |
| 07:16 | wjc | in cljs, I'd like sql results to be seqable. I tried to extend-type js/SQLResultSetRowList, but that returns a reference error |
| 07:17 | wjc | what should I be trying to extend? |
| 07:45 | augustl | hmm, lein deploy: "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection" |
| 07:47 | hyPiRion | augustl: some of the data you have in project.clj is most likely a string instead of a vector |
| 07:48 | augustl | doesn't seem like it |
| 07:48 | augustl | the only thing I changed lately is the leiningen version, I'm pretty sure the previous version I had worked fine |
| 07:49 | jweiss | is require+refer now preferred over use? |
| 07:50 | augustl | the leiningen error seems to now happen for all projects |
| 07:50 | cemerick | augustl: can you paste the exception? |
| 07:50 | cemerick | er, stack trace? |
| 07:51 | augustl | there is no exception |
| 07:51 | augustl | stack trace* :) |
| 07:51 | hyPiRion | jweiss: yes |
| 07:51 | cemerick | it's just the message? |
| 07:51 | augustl | cemerick: yes |
| 07:51 | cemerick | :-/ |
| 07:51 | augustl | status code 1 |
| 07:51 | augustl | exit code, I mean |
| 07:51 | hyPiRion | (:require lib :refer :all) == (:use lib) |
| 07:52 | cemerick | augustl: what repo are you trying to deploy to? |
| 07:52 | augustl | is there a way to downgrade leiningen to the latest "stable"? |
| 07:52 | augustl | cemerick: my own nexus |
| 07:53 | cemerick | augustl: can you paste your project.clj? |
| 07:53 | augustl | cemerick: nothing has changed in my project.clj :) |
| 07:53 | cemerick | I know, I know. :-) |
| 07:53 | cemerick | I have a theory. |
| 07:53 | augustl | sure, https://www.refheap.com/paste/4676 |
| 07:54 | cemerick | augustl: replace those repo URL strings with {:url "http://…"} |
| 07:54 | augustl | really? >< |
| 07:54 | augustl | not even a deprecation warning, that kind of sucks.. |
| 07:54 | cemerick | If that works, it's a bug. |
| 07:54 | augustl | ah, that's good |
| 07:55 | jsabeaudry | also, cheshire 4.0.1 is out |
| 07:55 | augustl | cemerick: works fine with {:url foo} instead of just fo |
| 07:56 | augustl | jsabeaudry: doesn't 4.0.0 actually mean 4.0.0 or newer in maven speak? |
| 07:56 | cemerick | augustl: Good. (Not good, but you know what I mean.) File a bug, include your project.clj, and say "it looks like the repository values aren't being normalized to maps when they're supposed to be" |
| 07:57 | cemerick | technomancy_'s gonna facepalm ;-) |
| 07:57 | augustl | cemerick: great, will do |
| 08:00 | jsabeaudry | augustl, I'm not familiar with maven, plugins like lei-outdated lead me to beleive that when you write 4.0.0 it is 4.0.0 |
| 08:00 | jsabeaudry | lein-outdated* |
| 08:01 | augustl | I recall reading an article about maven version numbers working like that |
| 08:01 | augustl | but I'm not sure, and for all I know leiningen fixes it |
| 08:02 | clgv | jsabeaudry: nope you have to specify a range instead of an exact number |
| 08:02 | clgv | jsabeaudry: as far as I remember you can do something like "[4.0.0,)" to have an open range |
| 08:03 | augustl | I do have 4.0.1 in my ~/.m2 and none of my projects have 4.0.1 specified |
| 08:03 | xeqi | augustl: "4.0.0" means I'd like 4.0.0, but I'll accept any version |
| 08:04 | xeqi | so if something else has a hard requirement or version range maven/aether/lein uses that instead of 4.0.0 |
| 08:04 | jsabeaudry | That is very interesting, so from day to another my project can break without me changing any file |
| 08:04 | hyPiRion | And "[4.0.0]" means I'd only accept 4.0.0, as far as I understand. |
| 08:04 | xeqi | hyPiRion: yep |
| 08:06 | xeqi | jsabeaudry: if a transative dependency uses a version range including a version that is not out yet then yes, it could break |
| 08:07 | clgv | xeqi: are you sure? usually leiningen gets the exact version you specified if you refrain from using ranges |
| 08:08 | clgv | well at least lein 1.x did always get what was specified |
| 08:08 | xeqi | clgv: if you don't have any ranges in the entire dep tree then yes, it grabs the soft versions based on range to root |
| 08:08 | xeqi | and really, if the version range over laps with the soft dependencies |
| 08:09 | xeqi | this is all hand wavy for quick summary on irc |
| 08:09 | clgv | there should be info in leiningen's documentation about that for non-maven devs ^^ |
| 08:12 | cemerick | clgv: the same things applied in lein 1.x |
| 08:13 | clgv | cemerick: humm never encountered them and never read about the issue |
| 08:13 | cemerick | nevertheless :-) |
| 08:15 | xeqi | clgv: the ecosystem, in general, has chosen to use soft dependencies so its not a common occurance |
| 08:15 | cemerick | xeqi: you make it sound like more than 25 people know that "2.0" doesn't mean "[2.0]" |
| 08:16 | xeqi | ... |
| 08:16 | clgv | cemerick: "20 people" would have been the better choice for that post ;) |
| 08:16 | xeqi | maven has chosen to use soft dependencies by default so its not a common occurance |
| 08:16 | cemerick | or, maybe, '"[2.0]" when I want 2.0, and 2.1 when that comes out next week' |
| 08:17 | cemerick | huh |
| 08:17 | cemerick | (I thought you were talking about Clojure-land.) |
| 08:18 | clgv | who? me? |
| 08:18 | cemerick | A number of people that I know that know Maven _very_ well say things like "if you're not using version ranges correctly, you're not using Maven correctly" |
| 08:18 | jsabeaudry | I'm so confused. |
| 08:18 | cemerick | clgv: no, I'm just generalizing :-) |
| 08:19 | hyPiRion | Project management isn't a solved problem, heh. |
| 08:20 | clgv | that's just dependency management I guess - but your sentence probably applies as well ^^ |
| 08:20 | cemerick | Not by a long shot. Probably won't ever be, insofar as different use cases often require entirely unreconcilable semantics. |
| 08:37 | gfredericks | I'm having trouble getting CLJS dependencies included in my output JS |
| 08:37 | gfredericks | I'm using lein checkouts but hopefully that doesn't make a difference |
| 08:39 | gfredericks | I have a single namespace in my own project, from which I require namespaces in the other projects. My code shows up in the built JS file but none of the other code does |
| 08:40 | gfredericks | and in the browser it fails on the goog.require statements from my namespace |
| 09:04 | jweiss | for the reader literals, will clojure automatically load the namespace from the classpath (the vars that are the values in data_readers.clj)? |
| 09:05 | S11001001 | jweiss: I would hope not, but I don't know |
| 09:05 | gfredericks | I believe not |
| 09:06 | gfredericks | I think I ran into that problem when using them |
| 09:08 | jweiss | gfredericks: so how are you supposed to load those functions then? |
| 09:08 | jweiss | the namespaces that need them have to load them themselves? that doesn't seem right either |
| 09:09 | gfredericks | jweiss: if you're depending on the functionality of a data reader then you should know to load the namespaces, I suppose |
| 09:09 | jweiss | for one of the major features of clojure1.4 the docs are basically non-existent :) |
| 09:09 | XPherior | Is there a way to block until (run-jetty) actually fully launches its server? |
| 09:09 | XPherior | My tests begin before the server can finish getting up. |
| 09:10 | S11001001 | jweiss: I think it's caring-proportional (i.e. only those who care enough to hunt down the details should be handed the keys to the feature) |
| 09:10 | jweiss | S11001001: i do care, and i've been hunting :) |
| 09:10 | XPherior | Oh. That's what :join? does, doesn't it.. |
| 09:10 | gfredericks | S11001001: does "hunt down" refer to requiring namespaces or googling for docs? |
| 09:11 | jweiss | i think he meant googling for docs |
| 09:11 | gfredericks | XPherior: :join? determines if it blocks or not |
| 09:11 | S11001001 | gfredericks: as jweiss says |
| 09:11 | S11001001 | I would really hate it if they auto-required nses |
| 09:11 | jweiss | which i did, and there's really nothing beyond the release note that i could find after 10 minutes of searching |
| 09:11 | XPherior | gfredericks: Makes sense. So calling (run-jetty #'app {:join? true}) should do the trick, I suppose. |
| 09:11 | gfredericks | XPherior: I think that's the default behavior |
| 09:12 | XPherior | gfredericks: Hm.. I'm always so clumsy with new web frameworks. |
| 09:13 | gfredericks | XPherior: I've always been able to use :join? false to start the server in another thread and haven't had an issue |
| 09:13 | XPherior | gfredericks: Yeah, this would be the opposite issue. |
| 09:14 | XPherior | Oh, ha. This is my problem. After my tests finishes, the server is still hanging around. |
| 09:14 | gfredericks | XPherior: you're using clojure.test? fixtures are great for that |
| 09:15 | gfredericks | (defn wrap-with-server [test-func] (let [server (start-server)] (try (test-func) (finally (.stop server))))) |
| 09:15 | XPherior | gfredericks: Midje. But should be all the same. |
| 09:15 | XPherior | Sweet. I will definitely use that. |
| 09:17 | gfredericks | ah ha; lein-classpath suggests that src-cljs from the deps doesn't make it to the classpath |
| 09:17 | gfredericks | how do I make that happen? |
| 09:43 | duck1123 | gfredericks: Are you just now trying lein2 for the first time? |
| 09:43 | gfredericks | no I'm just now trying to use it consistently |
| 09:44 | duck1123 | ahh, ok. I found that hard to believe otherwise |
| 09:45 | gfredericks | I default to avoiding new things. |
| 09:45 | wmealing_ | new things are hard |
| 09:46 | duck1123 | I love new things. Give me something fun to play with |
| 09:48 | gfredericks | old things are not fun? |
| 09:49 | duck1123 | old things, or old to me? |
| 09:50 | gfredericks | old to you |
| 09:51 | duck1123 | old things can be fun, but it's not like that rush of learning or exploring something new |
| 09:52 | gfredericks | I consider that the least comfortable part; when I don't know what's going on |
| 09:52 | gfredericks | only when the thing is old does the rush come :) "Hey now I really know how to use this..." |
| 09:55 | gfredericks | even when explicitly adding the checkouts/*/src-cljs to the classpath the compiler still silently ignores them :/ |
| 09:56 | clgv | that's mean! |
| 09:57 | ro_st | what are you trying to do, gfredericks? |
| 09:58 | ro_st | and with which version of lein? |
| 09:59 | gfredericks | ro_st: just upgraded to lein2; I'm trying to use cljs deps in /checkouts |
| 10:00 | ro_st | so you have cljs projects in checkouts and you want to compile cljs namespaces from there as though they were in the containing project? |
| 10:01 | dgrnbrg | Is there a place to register to give unconj talks for this year's conj? |
| 10:02 | ro_st | i'd put an issue on github for cljsbuild, gfredericks |
| 10:02 | gfredericks | ro_st: yes |
| 10:02 | gfredericks | okay. I will do that. |
| 10:03 | ro_st | i'm using crossovers from a checkout just fine |
| 10:06 | ohpauleez | dgrnbrg: Usually the list opens up at the conj itself on the first day |
| 10:07 | ro_st | ohpauleez: :-) |
| 10:07 | ro_st | did you see i fixed the demo up? |
| 10:08 | ohpauleez | ro_st: I just got settled from all of my traveling/moving - the demo totally works?! |
| 10:08 | ro_st | totally works now |
| 10:08 | ohpauleez | That's awesome! Thanks so much! |
| 10:08 | ro_st | i should inform creighton as well |
| 10:08 | ohpauleez | Do you mind if I link to it and mention it in the Clojure mailing list when I announce Shoreleave |
| 10:09 | ro_st | that's why i built it :-) |
| 10:10 | ohpauleez | ro_st: Awesome |
| 10:10 | dgrnbrg | ohpauleez: thanks! |
| 10:14 | magopian | ro_st: what demo are you talking about? |
| 10:14 | ro_st | why, i thought someone would never ask :-) |
| 10:15 | ro_st | https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote/ |
| 10:17 | magopian | ro_st: ;) |
| 10:18 | magopian | ro_st: mmm, it's like chinese to me ! |
| 10:18 | ro_st | haha oh dear |
| 10:18 | bOR_ | hmm. getting an integer-or-mark-p, nil error when I'm trying to type in the nrepl buffer (its not showing a prompt in emacs23). |
| 10:19 | bOR_ | anyone knows what I am doing wrong? (leiningen, nrepl beta9, nrepl.el |
| 10:19 | magopian | ro_st: well, i'm just a clojure noob, you know ;) |
| 10:19 | ro_st | you do any html/js work? |
| 10:20 | ro_st | maybe with some php or ruby or python on the back? |
| 10:21 | magopian | ro_st: i'm a web dev (django atm) |
| 10:21 | bOR_ | ah. found it. have to open a valid .clj file before nrepl works |
| 10:22 | ro_st | then you have enough background to grok that demo |
| 10:22 | magopian | i understand pubsub, but not enfocus, remotes, and i only vaguely know what is cljs for the moment ;) |
| 10:22 | ro_st | cljs is clojure compiled down to javascript. so it's loading a minified js app into the page, and running it |
| 10:23 | magopian | yup, i groked that ;) |
| 10:23 | ro_st | that app uses enfocus to render views with html templating and listen for user events |
| 10:23 | magopian | noir is clojure's most known web framework i believe |
| 10:23 | ro_st | remotes to encapsulate calls to the server-side clojure code (in noir, in this demo) |
| 10:23 | magopian | (i've just finished viewing bodil stokke's talk, awesome ; |
| 10:24 | ro_st | and pubsub (in the cljs) to bind the ui (views and event handlers) to the 'model', which in this case is just the remotes |
| 10:24 | magopian | ok ;) |
| 10:24 | magopian | ro_st: looks nice ;) |
| 10:24 | ro_st | i suggest reading through all the code, and then getting it running and interacting with it, watching the network and console in chrome dev tools |
| 10:24 | ro_st | you'll pick it up quickly |
| 10:25 | magopian | sure ;) |
| 10:25 | ro_st | src-cljs folder: all runs in js in the browser. src folder: runs on the server in on top of noir |
| 10:25 | ro_st | boom-chicka-pow. |
| 10:26 | ro_st | feel free to ask q's etc |
| 10:30 | ro_st | managed to get code-reloading with ring working with checkouts. damned handy |
| 10:31 | magopian | ro_st: i will ask, as soon as i get around to try it ;) |
| 10:31 | magopian | mmm, i've just finished applying for job positions at kodowa and relevance |
| 10:31 | magopian | as a clojure noob, i'm not sure yet if that is brave, useless, or full stupid |
| 10:32 | duck1123 | magopian: are you in range of those companies, or are you just looking for a clojure job and don't care where? |
| 10:34 | magopian | duck1123: in range, you mean "close to, geographically" ? |
| 10:34 | duck1123 | I was really hoping I could find something in my area when I was last looking. There are some good clojure jobs out there, but I didn't want to have to leave the state |
| 10:34 | duck1123 | magopian: yes |
| 10:34 | magopian | i'm from france, so no |
| 10:34 | jamiltron | Is there a function that given two (or more vectors) applies a function requiring the first element of both, then the second element of both, etc. without needing to do something like (map (apply (partition (interleave … ? |
| 10:34 | magopian | i won't mind moving, if i have to |
| 10:34 | magopian | but for relevance, it seems they have remote employees |
| 10:35 | magopian | i've worked remotely for two years now, and i just love it |
| 10:35 | gfredericks | jamiltron: sounds like map |
| 10:35 | magopian | jamiltron: just "map" is enough |
| 10:36 | magopian | &(map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) |
| 10:36 | lazybot | ⇒ ([1 4] [2 5] [3 6]) |
| 10:36 | gfredericks | ,(map hash-set [1 2 3] [:a :b :c] [[] [[]] [[[]]]]) |
| 10:36 | clojurebot | (#{1 [] :a} #{[[]] 2 :b} #{3 :c [[[]]]}) |
| 10:36 | jamiltron | Ah, thanks! |
| 10:36 | jamiltron | I guess I never checked the docs for map and just assumed it would only take one coll. |
| 10:37 | magopian | jamiltron: if you're learning to program in clojure (like i am ;), i highly recommend reading through http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html and playing with 4clojure.org ;) |
| 10:37 | magopian | sorry, 4clojure.com |
| 10:38 | magopian | it's both fun and challenging |
| 10:38 | magopian | some of the problems just made my brain hurt ;) |
| 10:38 | clgv | magopian: I would setup a dev environment and use that instead of 4clojure ^^ |
| 10:39 | magopian | clgv: well, i will, eventually ;) |
| 10:39 | magopian | for now, my dev environment is the LT playground :D |
| 10:39 | scriptor | that's perfectly fine |
| 10:39 | jamiltron | magopian: Thanks - I've used Clojure off and on here and there and have worked through some of 4clojure. It's just that Haskell is my default functional language and map in haskell is a function taking a single list. |
| 10:39 | jamiltron | I guess I should have checked the docs to compare differences. |
| 10:39 | clgv | magopian: uuuh somehow I interpolated tryclojure website into your post - but its not in there on second read ;) |
| 10:39 | magopian | mmm, clojure is my first "real" functional language (by real, i mean "other than scheme i used at school") |
| 10:40 | magopian | clgv: ;) |
| 10:40 | magopian | clgv: it was my first "dev environment" to be honest, but now that i have the playground, ... |
| 10:40 | magopian | well, let's put it that way: tryclojure isn't as attractive as it once was :) |
| 10:42 | bOR_ | jamiltron: I tend to use (source nameoffunction) rather than (doc nameoffunction). You get to see both the doc, and the source code of the function |
| 10:42 | bOR_ | helps me understand what it is doing underneath :-) |
| 10:42 | bOR_ | for (source function) to work, you might need to load clojure.repl though. |
| 10:43 | jamiltron | bOR_: That's a great suggestion. The only reason I know Haskell somewhat ok is because I read the source of the main list library. |
| 10:43 | bOR_ | &(source source) |
| 10:43 | lazybot | java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context |
| 10:43 | bOR_ | ,(source source) |
| 10:43 | clojurebot | Source not found |
| 10:44 | clgv | clojurebot has no sources. they have to be present as sourcefiles |
| 10:44 | bOR_ | ,(source frequencies) |
| 10:44 | clojurebot | Source not found |
| 10:44 | bOR_ | noticing that. |
| 10:45 | bOR_ | has anyone run into trouble trying to get nrepl + nrepl.el to load incanter libraries? |
| 10:45 | bOR_ | I can load core and stats, but not charts |
| 10:45 | clgv | that's weird. |
| 10:45 | clgv | bOR_: what's the error? |
| 10:46 | bOR_ | testing now |
| 10:47 | bOR_ | so, no errors or problems when I load incanter in the repl prompt (lein repl) |
| 10:47 | bOR_ | (or when I draw a chart) |
| 10:48 | bOR_ | java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate incanter/charts__init.class or incanter/charts.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0) |
| 10:48 | bOR_ | and that one after I nrepl-jack-in into emacs and do a (use '(incanter core stats charts)) |
| 10:49 | bOR_ | nrepl.middleware.interruptible_eval$run_next |
| 10:51 | clgv | bOR_: do you have the complete incanter as dependency or only incanter-core? |
| 10:51 | algernon | ro_st: that demo is awesome |
| 10:51 | bOR_ | incanter core, charts, io, pdf |
| 10:51 | jamiltron | gfredericks: magopian: Thanks for the hint to use map, cleaned up my code very nicely. |
| 10:51 | bOR_ | weird thing is. If I start a lein repl in the project library, and do (use '(incanter core stats charts)) in there |
| 10:51 | clgv | bOR_: sure? and incanter-charts.jar is on your classpath? |
| 10:52 | michaelr` | hello |
| 10:52 | ro_st | algernon: thanks! i'm keen to expand on it. any areas you think would be good to do that? |
| 10:52 | bOR_ | then I can do (view (xy-plot)) in the repl in the emacs (which I connected to with M-x nrepl) |
| 10:52 | bOR_ | I'll check for nrepl-jack-in what is in the classpath. |
| 10:53 | magopian | jamiltron: you're welcome! i believe it's the first time i can actually provide a (correct ;) answer to someone here :) |
| 10:53 | clgv | bOR_: core and stats are namespaces of incanter-core.jar. so it sounds pretty much like incanter-charts.jar is not on your classpath |
| 10:54 | bOR_ | you are right for when I do nrepl-jack-in |
| 10:54 | algernon | ro_st: not sure yet, I just had a quick glimpse. I'll have a closer look as soon as I have some more clojure-time |
| 10:54 | bOR_ | there is no charts on the classpath then |
| 10:55 | ro_st | cool |
| 10:55 | bOR_ | I'm not sure why not though, as it is in the project file, and it is available to me when I do lein repl in the project directory. |
| 10:56 | clgv | bOR_: maybe you need to restart the nrepl-server? I dont know any specifics of nrepl.el |
| 10:56 | algernon | ro_st: timbre is a very nice touch in the demo by the way :) |
| 10:57 | clgv | bOR_: could be that you added charts as dep when the nrepl-server was already running |
| 10:57 | ro_st | -grin- |
| 10:58 | ro_st | still need to 'solve' logging |
| 10:58 | abalone | ro_st: can i ask what you're demo-ing? |
| 10:58 | ro_st | the integration of the four elements to make a whole: enfocus, pubsub, remotes, crossovers |
| 10:59 | bOR_ | clgv: hmm. then it should be something that is happening automatically. I now just put the whole incanter as a dependency in my projects.clj, and it is still only core and stats loading |
| 10:59 | abalone | ro_or: where is the demo? |
| 10:59 | ro_st | https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote/ |
| 11:00 | abalone | oops s/ro_or/ro_st sorry |
| 11:01 | bOR_ | clgv: I'll send a message to nrepl.el maintainer. |
| 11:02 | magopian | ro_or looks like a funny smiley ;) |
| 11:02 | clgv | bOR_: did you restart the nrepl server? or is that the usual workflow for nrepl.el? |
| 11:03 | bOR_ | I never start it. I just open my src/projectname/core.clj file in emacs and do a nrepl-jack-in |
| 11:04 | clgv | bOR_: in CCW I have to restart the repl when I added a new dependency. it's also using nrepl |
| 11:05 | bOR_ | how does restarting work? is it a command? |
| 11:06 | clgv | bOR_: no idea what it is in nrepl.el or if you have to do it. check its docs |
| 11:06 | bOR_ | will do. |
| 11:07 | clgv | ro_st: uhh, that cljs stuff explodes with warnings ... |
| 11:08 | ro_st | yay |
| 11:08 | ro_st | my evil plan has come to fruition |
| 11:09 | ro_st | when building, or when running in the browser? |
| 11:13 | clgv | ro_st: when building ^^ |
| 11:14 | clgv | ro_st: your demo is currently only "adding items" - or does my browser hide something? |
| 11:16 | ro_st | in the browser, you should see 3 items listed |
| 11:16 | ro_st | clicking add item should add more, once per click |
| 11:17 | ro_st | you probably saw lots of WARNINGs? |
| 11:17 | clgv | yup that works |
| 11:17 | clgv | just checking the source ^^ |
| 11:17 | ohpauleez | those should be fixed in Enfocus' release |
| 11:18 | ohpauleez | ro_st: So, I'm going to cut 0.2.2 stable Shoreleave releases today, unless you have any objections |
| 11:18 | ro_st | sorry, you should have seen 5 items to begin with |
| 11:19 | ro_st | clgv: so check the source to see where the items are created and how both clj and cljs can use model/make-item |
| 11:19 | ro_st | ohpauleez: none from me :-) |
| 11:19 | ro_st | are you wrapping localstorage now? |
| 11:20 | ro_st | clgv: i suppose i can bootstrap the ui so it doesn't look so darn shite |
| 11:21 | clgv | ro_st: *g* some css can do magic ^^ |
| 11:21 | ohpauleez | ro_st: I was going to leave localstorage for 0.2.3 |
| 11:21 | ro_st | indeed it can |
| 11:23 | abalone | hm. looking for ac-nrepl in my marmalade package list but cannot find it |
| 11:24 | duck1123 | ohpauleez: I don't know if you're aware of it, but the shoreleave readme points to the marg docs for -worker, but I get a 404 |
| 11:25 | ohpauleez | duck1123: Thank you, I'll fix that up today too. I appreciate the heads up |
| 11:26 | ohpauleez | duck1123: Fwiw, I'd stay away from the worker stuff, it's going to change a lot in the future, but it's cool to play around with nonetheless |
| 11:27 | duck1123 | I decided I needed to take another look at what shoreleave has to offer, and I noticed that |
| 11:33 | bOR_ | abalone its in melpa |
| 11:33 | abalone | bOR_: thanks! |
| 11:44 | abalone | is it true that light table does not yet have paredit? |
| 11:44 | scriptor | I'm not sure if there are plans to have paredit soon |
| 11:45 | scriptor | besides maybe through plugins |
| 11:50 | ro_st | light table is cljs based |
| 11:50 | ro_st | so they'd have to build paredit in cljs first |
| 11:52 | duck1123 | I would think that the browser would step on most of the key sequences you'd really want to use |
| 11:54 | abalone | duck1123: that's a good point. would it step on something like F2? |
| 11:55 | duck1123 | abalone: looks like you can catch the F-keys https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/objectivej/ff5ZypwkEPw |
| 11:56 | duck1123 | if that 2nd post can be trusted |
| 11:56 | clgv | duck1123: afair lighttable is a webapp but shall be also shipped wrapped in a program. so there you should be able to use any key sequences |
| 11:58 | duck1123 | There's a js library that let you assign key chords to js functions. I've been tempted to use it to define as many of the emacs commands as are relevant in my app |
| 11:58 | duck1123 | but I wouldn't want to overwrite stuff like C-x or C-c as that might cause more confusion |
| 12:07 | Frozenlo` | Does (goog.dom.getDocument) gives me the entire content, such that I could store it in a variable and recreate it, or it is a pointer to the document? |
| 12:12 | dnolen | Frozenlock: it can be used to traverse the DOM, but things are usually done that way. Probably best to use something like domina if you aren't already using jayq. |
| 12:14 | Frozenlock | dnolen: Usually done which way? |
| 12:17 | dnolen | Frozenlock: querying the DOM for particular elements. |
| 12:18 | dnolen | and I meant "thing are not usually done that way" |
| 12:18 | dnolen | Frozenlock: I would use domina or jayq. domina is a bit nicer in some respects since it can be GClosure optimized. |
| 12:19 | Frozenlock | I see. Still, if I do (goog.dom.getDocument), is this a copy of the entire document? |
| 12:20 | nDuff | Frozenlock: Changes to the results given you from getDocument will have side effects, if that's what you're asking. |
| 12:21 | dnolen | Frozenlock: it's just a node. |
| 12:21 | dnolen | Frozenlock: with pointers to other nodes. |
| 12:21 | Frozenlock | No, I'm thinking of storing some stuff in a map where the keys are the dom-objects. |
| 12:22 | Frozenlock | For example: {#<[object HTMLDocument]> {"ctrl-f" (print "hello")}} |
| 12:22 | Frozenlock | But now I don't how to eval the stored function... I miss eval :( |
| 12:23 | nDuff | Frozenlock: Don't store code there, store a _function_. |
| 12:23 | dnolen | Frozenlock: I don't see why you need eval here. |
| 12:23 | nDuff | Frozenlock: ...if this were real Clojure, you'd want an IFn, not to use eval in that case either. |
| 12:23 | dnolen | Frozenlock: also why do you need DOM references as keys in the map? |
| 12:24 | Frozenlock | Well in my case I'm trying to make key-bindings as in emacs, meaning I can have different ones depending of where I am in the dom. |
| 12:25 | Frozenlock | So my listener would look in the map and choose what function to execute. |
| 12:25 | nDuff | You could just attach a property to the DOM elements themselves, and walk up the tree to find the most recent one. |
| 12:26 | nDuff | ...that's the approach I'd take, anyhow. Granted, it's not very Clojure-y. |
| 12:26 | Frozenlock | I don't know enough about the DOM yet for this to have even occured to me :( |
| 12:27 | dnolen | Frozenlock: you definitely want to attach events to DOM elements. |
| 12:30 | Frozenlock | I `think' that's what I'm doing, but I need to differentiate between the keypresses. If I follow this example, every key registered call the same function. http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/closure/goog/demos/keyboardshortcuts.html |
| 12:30 | Frozenlock | It's then its job to check which key was pressed. |
| 12:32 | dnolen | Frozenlock: so handle the different key cases inside the key press handler fn. |
| 12:33 | dnolen | Frozenlock: another option would be call a multimethod. But I'm not sure about the performance of multimethods in CLJS, it may not matter for what you are attempting. |
| 12:34 | Frozenlock | Well yeah, but If I want to be able to redefine these bindings on-the-fly, I can't hardcode them in function... Thus my handler would look in the map and call the associated function. Unless I'm missing something... |
| 12:34 | Frozenlock | Which is more than probable :) |
| 12:34 | dnolen | Frozenlock: why do you think you need to redefine them on the fly? |
| 12:36 | Frozenlock | Because that's the goal I've given myself to learn cljs. It would also make REPL change a breeze: (global-set-key "ctrl+shift+a" random-function) |
| 12:37 | Frozenlock | Granted, it might never be used in a true app development. |
| 12:40 | dnolen | Frozenlock: OK, but I still think this can be done w/ one key handler + hash map of listener fns for particular key/key combos. |
| 12:44 | duck1123 | Frozenlock: have you seen this? https://github.com/AndreasKostler/dyscord |
| 12:45 | Frozenlock | I have not! Thanks! |
| 12:58 | Frozenlock | duck1123: Is it me or dyscord.events is missing from the repo? |
| 12:59 | duck1123 | Frozenlock: to tell the truth, I've never used it. it's just been sitting in my starred repos section |
| 13:00 | duck1123 | that's a bit upsetting |
| 13:01 | Frozenlock | Shame, it looked very nice. I might try to patch the missing part. |
| 13:01 | duck1123 | there was a similar js-only library, but I can't seem to find it atm |
| 13:02 | Frozenlock | duck1123: Well there's the google keyboard shortcut library I was basing my code on. But it's far less emacs-like. |
| 13:07 | Frozenlock | Might as well ask here: Is there a browser REPL for inside the browser? |
| 13:16 | scriptor | is there a way to show line numbers or go to a line listed in the traceback? |
| 13:16 | scriptor | *stack trace |
| 13:16 | scriptor | er, in light table, that is |
| 13:35 | chouser | Frozenlock: http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html |
| 13:41 | duck11231 | so is there a cljs library that doesn't implement converting a clojurescript map into a js object? |
| 13:41 | duck11231 | it seems like every library I've seen has re-invented that particular wheel |
| 13:43 | sh10151 | error:14090086:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE:certificate verify failed |
| 13:44 | sh10151 | when running lein self-install, any ideas? |
| 13:45 | sh10151 | nm probably something wrong in curl |
| 13:45 | technomancy_ | sh10151: make sure you don't have an outdated libssl |
| 13:47 | sh10151 | unfortunately i don't administer this machine |
| 13:47 | scriptor | is there a function that checks if the given argument can support metadata? |
| 13:47 | technomancy_ | sh10151: you can set HTTP_CLIENT to disable certificate checks; check bin/lein |
| 13:48 | hoover_damm | also openssl seems to be wanting -CApath in 12.04.1 for wget |
| 13:48 | hoover_damm | which is bizzare |
| 13:48 | hoover_damm | it's not loading the root CA's without it, so the Verisign CA's go untrusted |
| 13:48 | hoover_damm | for example |
| 13:49 | technomancy_ | ugh; very strange |
| 13:49 | sh10151 | i did find a typo in https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/preview/bin/lein :) |
| 13:50 | sh10151 | bin/lein: line 179: downoad_failed_message: command not found |
| 13:50 | technomancy_ | sh10151: yeah, fixed within minutes of the release; unfortunately too late |
| 13:50 | hoover_damm | i'm hoping it's not new behavior as my Gentoo servers don't exhibit that behavior |
| 13:50 | technomancy_ | hoover_damm: do you know a link I can point people to? |
| 13:53 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, google brought up https://github.com/zendframework/zf2/pull/2223 |
| 13:53 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, I only experienced it, resolved it and didn't report a bug because I was unsure if the behavior was desired or not |
| 13:54 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, I guess it could be http://rt.openssl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=2700&user=guest&pass=guest |
| 13:54 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, I haven't hit it again so I really don't know how it's occuring |
| 13:55 | hoover_damm | feels quite weird |
| 14:00 | technomancy_ | the openssl bug is about breakage specifying a custom capath rather than requiring one when you should be able to omit it |
| 14:00 | clojurebot | c'est bon! |
| 14:00 | technomancy_ | clojurebot: shut up |
| 14:00 | clojurebot | Huh? |
| 14:00 | technomancy_ | clojurebot: forget the openssl bug |is| about breakage specifying a custom capath rather than requiring one when you should be able to omit it |
| 14:00 | clojurebot | I forgot that the openssl bug is about breakage specifying a custom capath rather than requiring one when you should be able to omit it |
| 14:01 | uvtc | ~performance |
| 14:01 | clojurebot | http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46 |
| 14:01 | uvtc | Why does clojurebot link there? |
| 14:01 | S11001001 | uvtc: I bet it links to the bit about how you shouldn't worry about annotation until you actually find a performance problem |
| 14:02 | S11001001 | linked |
| 14:06 | uvtc | S11001001: thanks. |
| 14:09 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, exactly... so either it's a weird ubuntu bug that no one has reported, or I don't know |
| 14:10 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, only hit it with lxc a few times |
| 14:10 | technomancy_ | I'll try it on my 12.04 machine when I get home |
| 14:30 | pepijndevos | wait, what? So drip launches a ton of jvms and then uses one every time you need a new one? |
| 14:40 | `fogus | core.cache docs available. Feedback much appreciated. https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki |
| 14:45 | antares_ | `fogus: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/Including does not explain what repository artifacts are published to |
| 14:46 | antares_ | https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/Using does not explain what clojure.core.cache/hit and /miss do |
| 14:49 | `fogus | antares: Do you mean that they exist in Maven Central? |
| 14:50 | antares_ | https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/Extending does not demonstrate how to properly require/import the protocol, so without reading the code it will be very challenging to implement your own cache |
| 14:50 | antares_ | speaking from my own experience with https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/clojure/monger/cache.clj#L24 and another implementation in Welle |
| 14:50 | antares_ | `fogus: yes, for cases when a version cannot be found and people are confused about if they need to add a repo or a particular version wasn't published after all |
| 14:53 | antares_ | «hit signifies that the item was found» still does not explain much |
| 14:54 | antares_ | I think they are best explained as "return this value from the cache" and "put this value to the cache" |
| 14:56 | `fogus | antares: "return value from cache" is for lookup. hit return a cache |
| 14:56 | `fogus | which reminds me, I should mention lookup |
| 14:57 | pjstadig | `fogus: i noticed in one of the release notes that it said the soft cache is immutable, which it's not |
| 14:57 | pjstadig | since it is based on CHM |
| 14:58 | `fogus | pjstadig: True |
| 14:59 | `fogus | pjstadig: I will make sure to mention that when I create its wiki page |
| 15:07 | `fogus | antares_: Monger docs and such are awe inspiring. Very nice work. |
| 15:07 | amalloy | pepijndevos: more or less, yeah |
| 15:08 | antares_ | `fogus: thank you. Take a look at other clojurewerkz.org projects, they sometimes have even better guides (I think). |
| 15:09 | `fogus | antares_: What is Clojurewerks? In a nutshell. |
| 15:09 | antares_ | `fogus: a collection of Clojure libraries for practical stuff |
| 15:09 | antares_ | `fogus: http://clojurewerkz.org/articles/about.html |
| 15:10 | `fogus | antares_: How did CW form? |
| 15:12 | antares_ | `fogus: me and my coworker needed a few libraries, most for data store clients. So we developed a few, open sourced them, written the guides and keep improving them and keep adding libraries as we need them or want to experiment with something. |
| 15:13 | `fogus | antares_: Very inspiring work. Nice job. I'm very motivated to work on docs now |
| 15:14 | antares_ | there is no commercial entity behind CLJW, some projects are experimental. One (Romulan) is a dead end at this point. |
| 15:14 | antares_ | I find CLJW guides a great way to learn about, say, the details of ElasticSearch features |
| 15:15 | `fogus | antares_: I imagine so. |
| 15:15 | antares_ | so instead of blogging I dig ES docs or source and document what I find |
| 15:15 | antares_ | we have a doc guides template and worked out a nice efficient way of writing and posting code examples |
| 15:15 | antares_ | so it does not take as much effort as one may think |
| 15:16 | alcy | antares_: an outsider here, but an es-user, appreciate that view point re: docs ! |
| 15:17 | antares_ | alcy: our pleasure. Did you see Elastisch docs? |
| 15:17 | antares_ | http://clojureelasticsearch.info |
| 15:17 | scriptor | antares_: any chance of open sourcing of the doc guides themselves? |
| 15:17 | `fogus | I love the idea of a dedicated .info domain! |
| 15:17 | antares_ | scriptor: they are open source, the base template: https://github.com/clojurewerkz/docslate |
| 15:17 | scriptor | ah, awesome |
| 15:17 | antares_ | all doc sites are open source under https://github.com/clojurewerkz/ |
| 15:17 | `fogus | antares_: You guys are rocking my world |
| 15:18 | antares_ | `fogus: thank you. Feel free to spread the word ;) Clojure needs documentation like no other thing, IMO. |
| 15:18 | alcy | antares_: heh yea, i bought the clojure few days back, thought of getting down with it by using elasitsch - but leiningrad kinda troubled me (or maybe I troubled it)...nevertheless, with enoguh clojure basics, pretty sure I am gonna play with es rather than solve math problems, if you understand what i mean ;) |
| 15:18 | `fogus | (inc _antares) |
| 15:18 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 15:18 | antares_ | books are great but library guides are just as important |
| 15:18 | alcy | antares_: s/clojure/clojure-book ;) |
| 15:19 | antares_ | alcy: if you need help with lein, just ask |
| 15:19 | antares_ | several active lein contributors are in here and in #leiningen |
| 15:19 | uvtc | antares_: Looks like, in your documentation, you use the word "guide" in place of "chapter". |
| 15:20 | uvtc | I tend to think of a guide as something containing multiple chapters. |
| 15:20 | alcy | antares_: ah sure, will spend some time first to figure out the warts n all from a learning perspective, 99.9& sure its not a lein problem but mine ;) |
| 15:21 | uvtc | antares_: and in the url, instead of guide/page-name.html, you have articles/page-name.html... |
| 15:22 | uvtc | Hm. |
| 15:22 | antares_ | uvtc: you are probably right. I am not a native English speaker and may use some terminology incorrectly. |
| 15:22 | antares_ | the /articles part is unfortunate but too late to change by now |
| 15:23 | antares_ | it originated with http://rubyamqp.info |
| 15:23 | antares_ | which was the first guides site of that kind we did with my coworker |
| 15:23 | uvtc | antares_: I could see "Article" ≅ "chapter". |
| 15:23 | nz- | `fogus: is it possible to mix cache factories somehow? e.g LRU cache that also evicts stuff based on time to live |
| 15:23 | antares_ | and for some reasons we used /articles there |
| 15:24 | `fogus | nz-: Yes, although all combinations have not been tested. |
| 15:24 | antares_ | uvtc: but honestly, that's not that important as long as we have the content :) |
| 15:24 | nz- | `fogus: is there an example of that? |
| 15:24 | `fogus | nz-: The base cache just needs to be something associative, which core.caches are |
| 15:24 | uvtc | antares_: "articles" to me mean standalone, like they could be read in any order (like a Clojure set), whereas "chapters" imply ordering (like a Clojure vector). |
| 15:24 | `fogus | nz-: Not yet. Thanks for the reminder. |
| 15:24 | antares_ | uvtc: CLJW guides are supposed to be read in order |
| 15:25 | antares_ | we even have "What to read next" at the end of each chapter |
| 15:26 | nz- | `fogus: I'd like also a more full blown example: e.g how to cache some DAO like thing |
| 15:27 | Frozenlock | chouser: this one evaluates on the server side? |
| 15:28 | `fogus | nz-: You mean, an example of extending the protocol to some db? |
| 15:28 | nz- | `fogus: e.g how to cache this kind of method (def get-user [user-id] ...) |
| 15:31 | `fogus | nz-: I'll think about how/what to add for that |
| 15:35 | nz- | `fogus: great |
| 15:36 | nz- | `fogus: Function backed cache page is missing: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/FN , Link to FN is in https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/Using |
| 15:37 | `fogus | nz-: WiP |
| 15:53 | ninjudd | pepijndevos: drip only keeps one spare JVM running per unique hash of JVM options |
| 15:53 | pepijndevos | ninjudd: but, when I use one... it does need to laucn another one, right? But I assume that could happen in the background |
| 15:54 | ninjudd | pepijndevos: right |
| 15:57 | pepijndevos | ninjudd: pretty neat. :) |
| 15:59 | ggenikus` | Hello guys, i am new to clojure and try to use it in practice. I am in situation when i need use (case) inside (->), is it posible? For example (-> (one) (case (expr) 1 (two) 2 (three))(four)). |
| 16:00 | pepijndevos | ggenikus`: macroexpand is your friend |
| 16:00 | hyPiRion | ,(require 'clojure.pprint) |
| 16:00 | clojurebot | nil |
| 16:00 | hyPiRion | ,(clojure.pprint/macroexpand-all '(-> (one) (case 1 (two) 2 (three)) (four))) |
| 16:00 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.pprint/macroexpand-all, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)> |
| 16:01 | pepijndevos | ,(require 'clojure.walk) |
| 16:01 | clojurebot | nil |
| 16:01 | hyPiRion | oh right |
| 16:01 | hyPiRion | ,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> (one) (case 1 (two) 2 (three)) (four))) |
| 16:01 | clojurebot | (four (let* [G__270 (one)] (case* G__270 0 0 (throw (new java.lang.IllegalArgumentException (clojure.core/str "No matching clause: " G__270))) ...))) |
| 16:02 | pepijndevos | Clojure needs interactive expansion... |
| 16:03 | emezeske | pepijndevos: In Vim with vimclojure, "\me" macroexpands the form under the cursor, and I'm sure that slime in emacs does the same thing |
| 16:03 | pepijndevos | emezeske: amazing :) |
| 16:03 | emezeske | pepijndevos: It is *very* handy! |
| 16:05 | pepijndevos | emezeske: I barely use vimclojure, shame. It needs better installation and a cheatsheet |
| 16:05 | S11001001 | When gigamonkey told me to imagine a junior employee hand-expanding macros over email for the compiler, that sounded cooler than what actually happens |
| 16:05 | fenton | how do i make clojure functions available as instance methods for accessing from java? |
| 16:06 | hyPiRion | fenton: Take a look at gen-class and reify. |
| 16:06 | emezeske | pepijndevos: The cheatsheet is ":help vimclojure" |
| 16:06 | S11001001 | http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html#the-story-of-mac-a-just-so-story |
| 16:06 | pepijndevos | emezeske: to much information |
| 16:07 | emezeske | pepijndevos: Just scroll to the hotkeys, it's really not that bad |
| 16:07 | fenton | hyPiRion: thx. what does reify mean? |
| 16:07 | Apage43 | I've used vimclojure for a while, but it is awkward to set up at times |
| 16:07 | Apage43 | I'm seeing if I can get myself used to emacs/evil |
| 16:08 | pepijndevos | Apage43: there is also a slimev thing if you want to do that. It does not aloow you to type unbalanced parens |
| 16:08 | emezeske | Apage43: Do you frequently have to set up vimclojure? |
| 16:09 | Apage43 | pepijndevos: it's not so much the editing parts that bother me, it's more that if I accidentally fire off a thing that will never finish in a vimclojure REPL I basically kill Vim |
| 16:09 | pepijndevos | emezeske: I'm just back from hacker school, and I set up vimclojure like, 5 times. Twice for myself and a few times for other people starting clojure dev |
| 16:09 | Apage43 | I really like my Vim editing setup |
| 16:10 | emezeske | Apage43: REPLs in vim will always suck. Vim just is not built for that, unfortunately |
| 16:10 | Apage43 | emezeske: not anymore =P. I used to use it on Windows even. |
| 16:10 | emezeske | Apage43: I recommend using lein-tarsier and running a command-line repl next to vimclojure |
| 16:10 | pepijndevos | Apage43: you can kill the server and vim wil unfreeze |
| 16:10 | nz- | `fogus: If I have understood correctly, all the cache instances are immutable? Then in the case where you are caching a dao like function you probably need to store cache state to a atom or something like that |
| 16:10 | pepijndevos | emezeske: why does nREPL not work on vim? |
| 16:10 | emezeske | pepijndevos: Vim does not support asynchronous buffer updates |
| 16:11 | emezeske | Apage43: I find the best experience to be just turning on the lein-tarsier repl and using that |
| 16:12 | gzmask | hey folks , where is \sr key in vim? |
| 16:13 | pepijndevos | emezeske: I'm not sure I understand what that means... I was under the impression nrepl was designed to be compatible with all the needs of tool authors |
| 16:14 | emezeske | pepijndevos: It means that Vim cannot be made to properly display an interactive REPL. |
| 16:15 | emezeske | pepijndevos: Vim buffers can't be updated as the REPL prints lines out -- they have to poll or do something else horrible |
| 16:15 | emezeske | pepijndevos: It's just not possible to have a good REPL experience in a Vim buffer. |
| 16:17 | pepijndevos | emezeske: that sucks... someone should go ahead and fix vim |
| 16:17 | emezeske | pepijndevos: I think you might find that to be a rather monstrously insurmountable problem |
| 16:18 | pepijndevos | lol |
| 16:36 | Frozenlock | I find it creepy to find this afternoon's #clojure log of myself when searching on google. |
| 16:42 | fenton | any idea why I get an airity error when trying to call clojure from java? http://pastie.org/4605825 |
| 16:43 | hiredman | fenton: you are missing a "this" parameter |
| 16:44 | fenton | hiredman: thank you!!! |
| 16:45 | fenton | hiredman: does the this go into the :gen-class or the call from java? |
| 16:46 | hiredman | fenton: in the function |
| 16:46 | hiredman | the function takes this+args, so a function backing a single arg method needs to take 2 args |
| 16:47 | fenton | hiredman: thx |
| 16:49 | SegFaultAX|work2 | What's the correct way to compare a float and an int? |
| 16:50 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Actually, nevermind. |
| 16:50 | jkkramer | ,(== 0 0.0) |
| 16:50 | clojurebot | true |
| 16:58 | justinleitgeb | Hey folks - anyone know where I can find the seq-utils for Clojure 1.4? I'm looking for the `separate` function in particular: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.seq-utils/separate |
| 16:59 | Raynes | I think it might have just disappeared in the contrib -> standalone library transition. |
| 16:59 | Raynes | It is a really simple function though. |
| 16:59 | S11001001 | justinleitgeb: some things are in core; others were deemed unimportant |
| 16:59 | Raynes | (defn separate [f s] [(filter f s) (remove f s)]) |
| 16:59 | technomancy_ | Raynes: I am disappoint. |
| 16:59 | Raynes | Untested, but should work. |
| 17:00 | Raynes | emezeske: I mostly just copied the implementation on clojuredocs |
| 17:00 | Raynes | (def separate (juxt filter remove)) |
| 17:00 | Raynes | yey |
| 17:00 | technomancy_ | that's more like it |
| 17:00 | justinleitgeb | Nice :) |
| 17:00 | justinleitgeb | thanks guys! |
| 17:01 | emezeske | Raynes: Six of one, half-dozen of the other. I say it's fine both ways, but I knew someone was gonna mention juxt :) |
| 17:01 | Raynes | juxt is so pretty in this situation though. |
| 17:01 | emezeske | I wonder if there is a simple one-pass solution, or if you have to do a reduce for that |
| 17:01 | Raynes | And if I hadn't done the juxt example, amalloy would have killed me. |
| 17:02 | emezeske | That is true. |
| 17:02 | Raynes | He is nuts for it, you know. |
| 17:03 | jkkramer | (inc juxt) |
| 17:03 | lazybot | ⇒ 2 |
| 17:03 | SegFaultAX|work2 | 4clojure #74 is a horrible problem. |
| 17:05 | emezeske | jkkramer: I had to do a double take on that to figure out why the hell (inc juxt) would return 2 :) |
| 17:05 | Raynes | 4clojure/4clojure#74 |
| 17:05 | lazybot | Less retarded Leagues link -- https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/issues/74 is closed |
| 17:05 | Raynes | Yeah, lazybot can do that. Send payments to... |
| 17:06 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Haha, not issue #74 |
| 17:06 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Problem 74. |
| 17:06 | SegFaultAX|work2 | http://www.4clojure.com/problem/74 |
| 17:06 | amalloy | Raynes: go back to bed, man |
| 17:06 | Raynes | amalloy: Doesn't matter. I got to show off a new feature. |
| 17:07 | SegFaultAX|work2 | My solution: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4684 |
| 17:07 | Raynes | Even if I did look stupid in the process. |
| 17:07 | SegFaultAX|work2 | How could it be improved? |
| 17:07 | scriptor | Kodowa/Light-Table-Playground#113 |
| 17:07 | lazybot | Namespace filtering -- https://github.com/Kodowa/Light-Table-Playground/issues/113 is open |
| 17:08 | Frozenlock | Is it possible that some parts of closure aren't in clojurescript? |
| 17:08 | jkkramer | SegFaultAX|work2: see clojure.string/join |
| 17:08 | SegFaultAX|work2 | jkkramer: Derp, forgot about that. |
| 17:09 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Ok, so other than re-inventing join, how is it? |
| 17:10 | ohpauleez | Frozenlock: some of the APIs are not in the Closure jar cljs ships with |
| 17:10 | ohpauleez | but they constantly update the jar, and recently rolled in the "third-party" jar, which has a lot of the newer closure stuff in it |
| 17:10 | jkkramer | SegFaultAX|work2: looks fine. stylistically, I would indent psqaure? |
| 17:11 | ohpauleez | Frozenlock: What specifically are you looking for? |
| 17:11 | Frozenlock | http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/class_goog_events_KeyHandler.html |
| 17:12 | Frozenlock | I was naively expecting (goog.events.KeyHandler. element) to work. |
| 17:12 | Frozenlock | So I should download the js and add it to my :extern? |
| 17:12 | SegFaultAX|work2 | jkkramer: I put it at the same level as the other let-bound locals, is that wrong? |
| 17:12 | ohpauleez | Frozenlock: That should work, I would imagine |
| 17:13 | ohpauleez | the stuff that doesn't work is some of the HTML5 stuff |
| 17:13 | jkkramer | SegFaultAX|work2: I just mean spreading it across more than one line, so it's easier to read |
| 17:13 | SegFaultAX|work2 | jkkramer: Oh the function itself. Yea I wrote it literally in the textbox on 4clojure. |
| 17:14 | SegFaultAX|work2 | jkkramer: If it were in vim I would have kept it cleaner. But since it's a throwaway anyway, I didn't care. |
| 17:14 | emezeske | SegFaultAX|work2: Your solution looks eminently reasonable to me. |
| 17:14 | SegFaultAX|work2 | I feel like the problem is doing 3 things at once which makes your solution necessarily ugly. |
| 17:15 | emezeske | SegFaultAX|work2: Your solution is not ugly at all. |
| 17:15 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Eg process the text, do the real calculation, convert it back to text. |
| 17:15 | SegFaultAX|work2 | emezeske: That's very encouraging, thank you. |
| 17:19 | devn | Every bit of code I've ever written or read becomes ugly at some point. |
| 17:21 | brehaut | devn: for me that point is about 15 seconds after i stop typing |
| 17:22 | Raynes | Before, during, and after. |
| 17:23 | scriptor | I just redefine my idea of ugly with every newline |
| 17:24 | scriptor | also, is there any way to check whether something supports metadata? |
| 17:24 | scriptor | or do I need to manually check for each meta-able data type? |
| 17:26 | naeg | scriptor: not sure whether this is clever, but how about just trying (with-meta) with some nonsense? |
| 17:26 | scriptor | naeg: would have to catch the exception then, I think |
| 17:27 | scriptor | ,(with-meta 2 {}) |
| 17:27 | clojurebot | #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj> |
| 17:27 | scriptor | not sure if that's idiomatic? Seems rather hacky personally |
| 17:27 | naeg | right. not sure whether this is considered good style in cljoure though |
| 17:28 | naeg | yeah, same concerns here. just an idea I had (python programmers would do so I think) |
| 17:30 | TimMc | scriptor: IMeta |
| 17:30 | naeg | scriptor: btw, finished that blog post about the code from last time. though I'm not comparing it to other python implementations, it was under the top 10 for half a day on HN: http://programmablelife.blogspot.co.at/2012/08/conways-game-of-life-in-clojure.html |
| 17:31 | TimMc | &(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta []) |
| 17:31 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 17:31 | scriptor | ah, thanks TimMc |
| 17:31 | scriptor | saw that naeg, great post |
| 17:32 | naeg | gave my blog quite some reads in two days - the people on HN are really curious about stuff written in Clojure |
| 17:33 | firesofmay | Hi, what is the best way to send email attachments of screenshots taken from testing using email in clojure? |
| 17:35 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: I did a more literal translation a while back. |
| 17:35 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: https://gist.github.com/3190354 if you're interested. |
| 17:35 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: from what to what? |
| 17:35 | naeg | oh, yeah |
| 17:36 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: I stumbled upon that one when I was looking for mapcat in Python |
| 17:36 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: Neat! :) |
| 17:37 | naeg | I used chain from itertools though. Also, Python 3 offers the Counter dictionary, which does exactly what frequencies does in Clojure |
| 17:37 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: Sure. That wasn't the point of the exercise though. |
| 17:38 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: what was the point of your exercise? |
| 17:39 | naeg | oh, that comparison to lua? |
| 17:39 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: Lulz, mostly. |
| 17:39 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: And I also wrote it in Lua first. |
| 17:39 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: Yea. |
| 17:39 | naeg | yeah, same here. I was just curious whether Python can go that far and still be reasonable good |
| 17:40 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: I make note that the Python in that document is purposefully not idiomatic and doesn't take advantage of what Python offers. |
| 17:40 | SegFaultAX|work2 | It's a Python port of a Lua port of Clojure code. |
| 17:41 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: I made that clear too. Otherwhise the guys at #python would have probably stoned me |
| 17:41 | naeg | some of them weren't too happy when they saw what I was doing. One was very helpful though |
| 17:41 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: I enjoy re-writing stuff from Clojure in other languages. I'm not sure why. |
| 17:41 | SegFaultAX|work2 | https://gist.github.com/3373635 |
| 17:42 | technomancy_ | hoover_damm: so I wasn't able to reproduce any issues with curl or wget on the latest ubuntu at home |
| 17:42 | technomancy_ | was there something specific needed to trigger that? |
| 17:42 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: I enjoyed doing so too. probably because I secretly compare my "old main language" with my "probably soon new main language" |
| 17:42 | naeg | even though that comparison between Python and Clojure isn't fair in general |
| 17:42 | eggsby | SegFaultAX|work2: the sad part is that FP in python is very slow |
| 17:42 | SegFaultAX|work2 | naeg: If I did that, my gist would be filled with Clojure wannabe Erlang. |
| 17:43 | eggsby | that thread fn is cute though :) |
| 17:43 | SegFaultAX|work2 | eggsby: And Python is very "objecty". I don't know what that means, I just made it up. But I think you know what I mean. |
| 17:43 | eggsby | 'of course you can have rich lambdas! just give them names!' |
| 17:44 | eggsby | s/names/nouns |
| 17:45 | naeg | there are probably other reasons why most people don't really use FP in Python than performance |
| 17:45 | scriptor | imperative is just more idiomatic in it, might as well use everything python gives you |
| 17:46 | SegFaultAX|work2 | I have mixed emotions about FP in Python. I will say this though: Clojure's persistent data structures are a dream. |
| 17:46 | SegFaultAX|work2 | And the lack of those in Python is painful to say the least. |
| 17:47 | eggsby | clojure is one of the slower jvm guys though, I think it's just the penalty of being dynamic |
| 17:47 | naeg | I like Python much more than e.g. Java though. OOP is not bad, but there are simply just problems around where OOP doesn't fit - if you still use the OO langauge, you're going to have a bad time |
| 17:47 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Although pysistence is a pretty neat little project. |
| 17:47 | naeg | Python on the other hand doesn't force OOP on you as e.g. Java does |
| 17:48 | eggsby | ya python is a lot more pragmatic than java, but also a lot slower |
| 17:49 | SegFaultAX|work2 | Java vs. Python is a fairly apples and oranges comparison. |
| 17:50 | scriptor | speed is probably not a major issue for a lot of the things python is used for |
| 17:50 | scriptor | web dev, command-line scripts, etc. |
| 17:50 | pbostrom | technomancy_: hoover_damm mentioned "only hit it with lxc a few times" so maybe from inside a container? |
| 17:51 | naeg | yeah, probably right SegFaultAX|work2. Just reduced both of them to OOP-style |
| 17:51 | eggsby | ya, that's true.. both play the OO game tho, i'm not sure how beneficial OO is for simple cli scripts, if it's not just for cli scripts it implies its in the same game as java |
| 17:51 | naeg | I don't think that a lot of people use OOP for CLI stuff |
| 17:51 | naeg | the web stuff is mostly OO though |
| 17:52 | magopian | can somebody who already solved the 4clojure problem 125 let me know if their solution is still working right now? |
| 17:52 | technomancy_ | pbostrom: oh, that's right |
| 17:53 | naeg | SegFaultAX|work2: I think I'll start using gist too - do quite some proof-of-concepts from time to time and just keep them for myself, but it's interesing to read them |
| 17:53 | magopian | i have some strange error (java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn) that i don't have in my playground nor in tryclojure |
| 17:53 | dnolen | eggsby: idiomatic Clojure perhaps is slower - but Clojure has the necessary escape hatches to get perf w/o resorting to the verbosity of Java. |
| 17:54 | eggsby | dnolen: those escape hatches are somewhat of a black art, just a lot of typecasting and hinting, right? I made a (bad) app in clojure and scala, the scala version was almost 4x as performant (this was after clojure typecasting/hinting) |
| 17:55 | dnolen | eggsby: the perf costs don |
| 17:55 | dnolen | 't really have anything to do w/ being dynamic. |
| 17:55 | eggsby | I was interested in what caused it, it was the classic double tail recursive fib, one of the worst programs you can write but I was shocked how much slower clojure was than the scala version. I don't know nearly enough to say *why* though. |
| 17:55 | dnolen | eggsby: typecasting / hinting isn't really what's required for fast code. That said, it's not obvious - Scala benefits in that the imperative style is easy to express. |
| 17:57 | magopian | amalloy: are you there by any chance? |
| 17:57 | amalloy | indeed |
| 17:58 | eggsby | dnolen: some of the scala advocates around the office have argued that scala could be classified as *more* functional than clojure because it allows invariant refs (i.e. vals) where clojure allows everything to be dynamically redefined |
| 17:58 | eggsby | It seemed like a bit of a red herring, since in order to dynamically redefine you'd have to intentionally do that but... |
| 17:58 | amalloy | problem 125 is still working fine, magopian |
| 17:58 | eggsby | I do wish we had something like (def-and-prevent-redef ..) |
| 17:59 | dnolen | eggsby: dynamic redefinition outside of development w/o an incredibly good reason makes little sense. |
| 17:59 | dnolen | eggsby: defonce. |
| 17:59 | technomancy_ | defonce doesn't prevent redefinition |
| 17:59 | technomancy_ | definline, maybe |
| 17:59 | magopian | amalloy: mmm ok then, strange that i have this issue only in 4clojure, not in my repl |
| 18:00 | magopian | i'll keep digging then, thanks a lot amalloy for your responsiveness ;) |
| 18:00 | scriptor | you *could* redefine everything in clojure, just in the same way you *could* not use invariants at all in scala |
| 18:00 | dnolen | technomancy_: does anything really prevent redefinition? you can always recompile a larger compilation unit. |
| 18:01 | technomancy_ | yeah, it quickly devolves into nonsense |
| 18:02 | technomancy_ | which is kinda the expected outcome of a "my language is more functional than yours" argument |
| 18:03 | eggsby | my lang is bigger than your lang it has more fns than a fn convention |
| 18:05 | arohner | clojurebot: separate |
| 18:05 | clojurebot | separate is in clojure.contrib.seq-utils, but just use (juxt filter remove) instead |
| 18:05 | eggsby | technomancy_: it is interesting in the context of what the language encourages and which is the Correct(tm) way to do things. In a language like clojure I feel like I'd prefer if the defs were final and have a special syntax for the other case (which we kind of have with ^:dynamic) |
| 18:06 | Sgeo | AFAICT, with-redefs is often used to aide testing |
| 18:06 | hiredman | eggsby: that's dumb |
| 18:07 | hiredman | the whole point of vars as an indirect linking construct is to allow for that |
| 18:07 | technomancy_ | I appreciate having the flexibility to help during development. it's obvious when it's abused in non-development contexts. |
| 18:07 | Sgeo | You shouldn't need to include in your main code things designed only to make it easier to test... I think |
| 18:07 | hiredman | it is useful in all kinds of cases |
| 18:07 | hiredman | e.g. repl dev, hot patching, etc |
| 18:07 | Sgeo | I remember writing C# code and realizing I had no idea how to do automated testing on any of it |
| 18:08 | eggsby | but isn't it weird that we don't even have a `final`? |
| 18:08 | Sgeo | Although that could also be the fault of a bunch of globals lurking around |
| 18:08 | hiredman | why? |
| 18:08 | clojurebot | why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone |
| 18:10 | dnolen | eggsby: most things are effectively final if you're not dev'ing at the REPL. There are real problems and imaginary ones, no? |
| 18:13 | eggsby | yes, it is an imaginary problem because in practice you simply don't redef without an explicit need to, and if you're being particularly vigilant you'd use earmuffs. It still irks me that I have no defense against people saying it's a language bug and is ~dangerous~ and makes everything possibly ~impure~ other than 'yes but we dont do that' |
| 18:14 | eggsby | maybe it has to do with simplicity to just have a single construct for defining a reference |
| 18:14 | dnolen | eggsby: well tell them if they're worried about they can just AOT all the time - from sound of Scala compile times I don't think they'll notice much of a difference ;) |
| 18:15 | hiredman | eggsby: there is a defense |
| 18:15 | hiredman | eggsby: "what do you want that for?" |
| 18:15 | hiredman | "what is the use of that?" |
| 18:15 | hiredman | there is no reason to include every feature under the sun without justification |
| 18:16 | eggsby | ha, *that* certainly flies in the face of scala |
| 18:16 | hiredman | a "final" facility causes much more pain then not having one |
| 18:17 | hiredman | programming is about getting things done, is it a feature if the library you are using denies you access to the thing you need to make it work? |
| 18:17 | technomancy_ | one word... unsafePerformIO |
| 18:17 | Raynes | That's three words. |
| 18:17 | Raynes | Actually four. |
| 18:17 | Frozenlock | ^^ |
| 18:18 | hiredman | you often end up with the choice of forking, or using reflection |
| 18:18 | hiredman | (in java) |
| 18:18 | hiredman | just to use a library slightly differently then the creators intended |
| 18:19 | hiredman | because stuff is private or final or otherwise "encapsulated" |
| 18:19 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, gimme a few i'm back i can fire up another lxc guest (fresh) and see if it's isolated to lxc |
| 18:20 | imeredith | hiredman: programming is about getting stuff done - but there is a lot of debate over the best method to get things done :) |
| 18:20 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, I admit most of the problem is just related to SNI and github's SSL certificates |
| 18:20 | Bronsa | sono molto simili |
| 18:20 | Bronsa | ops wrong channel |
| 18:20 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, and weird openssl handshake errors |
| 18:21 | hiredman | imeredith: sure, but final/private/etc limit your choices |
| 18:21 | eggsby | but I thought clojure was a conservative language |
| 18:21 | eggsby | ;) |
| 18:22 | imeredith | hiredman: well, im sure that people that like them would say that it leads to less pain in the future because you cant do things by accident or something (i dont really understand it myself) |
| 18:22 | eggsby | WHERE ARE MY MULTIPLE PASS COMPILATIONS AND CYCLIC DEPENDENCIES |
| 18:22 | hiredman | every var in your clojure program is an indirect link and provides leverage and choice |
| 18:23 | eggsby | ya imeredith I always hear described in terms of 'your code lives beyond you, using explicit declarations allows you to express intended usage to future devs' |
| 18:23 | technomancy_ | more power isn't necessarily good, (the power to malloc/free, the power to bash your data structures in place) but you have to show that it's easy to abuse the power by mistake to make a case for removing it. |
| 18:24 | technomancy_ | "you have a def in column not-zero" is the easiest thing in the world to catch |
| 18:24 | hiredman | the power from the indirect changable linkage from vars is effectively infinite, so how do you trade that off? |
| 18:24 | imeredith | eggsby: all that said, some constructs are useful - personally im a scala person and using monads in scala is cool because general if it compiles its going to be correct |
| 18:25 | imeredith | but private? meh |
| 18:25 | hiredman | clojurebot: tell us about scala |
| 18:25 | clojurebot | scala is also<reply>"we are completely screwed on ==." -- seen in #scala |
| 18:25 | hiredman | touche |
| 18:25 | hiredman | clojurebot: tell us about scala |
| 18:25 | clojurebot | Unfortunately the standard idiom of consuming an infinite/unbounded resource as a stream can be problematic unless you're really careful -- seen in #scala |
| 18:25 | imeredith | lol |
| 18:25 | hiredman | yeah well |
| 18:25 | imeredith | #scala is useless |
| 18:26 | imeredith | lol |
| 18:26 | hiredman | clojurebot: tell us more about scala |
| 18:26 | clojurebot | Scala often gets in the way when trying to write neat code -- seen in #scala |
| 18:26 | eggsby | I was talking to a scala advocate today about private and specifically whether a function can be considered pure if it internally memoizes some value, even it is idempotent |
| 18:26 | eggsby | if another ~thing~ can reference that memoized reference then it would be impure since something could rely on that being in one state or another (this is an *extremely* contrived example), but if it was private that wouldn't be the case |
| 18:26 | hiredman | eggsby: sure |
| 18:27 | hiredman | but in a real world program, you always end up wanting access to the cache |
| 18:27 | hiredman | for one reason or another |
| 18:27 | imeredith | eggsby: i think it would depend if anything else can change that momized reference - because then the function would return the wrong thing |
| 18:27 | eggsby | right, and the STM is amazing for that sort of thing |
| 18:28 | imeredith | eggsby: but im not sure |
| 18:28 | hiredman | but the stm isn't magic, it is managing impurity, not removing it |
| 18:28 | eggsby | yes, it's largely eliminating the warts and gotchyas from dealing w/ mutation |
| 18:28 | eggsby | Anyhow it's all lofty and idealogical and not really founded in actual programming re: getting shit done |
| 18:29 | imeredith | the scala community is hugely diverse |
| 18:29 | hiredman | that's one way to put it |
| 18:29 | eggsby | not the STM, 'purity' |
| 18:29 | imeredith | heh |
| 18:29 | eggsby | ya imeredith |
| 18:29 | eggsby | I'm interested in learning scala but part of my love for clojure is a love for lisp. |
| 18:30 | hiredman | if the scala community cared about getting stuff done they would use a simpler language |
| 18:30 | imeredith | i almost started on clojure but got really into scalaz first heh |
| 18:30 | imeredith | lol |
| 18:30 | hiredman | if you care about getting stuff done you cannot treat your langauge and runtime as a blackbox |
| 18:30 | imeredith | scala is a simple langauge |
| 18:30 | eggsby | hiredman: my take on scala is that it's a better java with comparable performance |
| 18:30 | hiredman | you have to know how they work |
| 18:30 | imeredith | well, the scala runtime isnt all that awesome |
| 18:31 | mk | I'm not sure what it means to treat the language itself as a black box |
| 18:31 | nDuff | mk: To not know/care about its implementation |
| 18:31 | imeredith | one of the problems scala has is that people come from java and move from OO -> FP progressively - but scala gets complicated for heavy FP |
| 18:32 | hiredman | your language is just another library, which library do you pick? the one with the source code you can scan through easily to find out why something isn't working, or the library with implicits? |
| 18:32 | mk | as for the runtime, it can be a black box, as long as you've got decent enough abstractions to model it. Obviously I need to know about the performance characteristics of my structures |
| 18:32 | imeredith | implicits are not the problem people say they are |
| 18:32 | eggsby | btw #clojure is probably the best language channel i'm aware of |
| 18:33 | mk | eggsby: I agree |
| 18:33 | hoover_damm | indeed |
| 18:33 | hyPiRion | #clojure is the only language channel I'm aware of. |
| 18:33 | wjlroe | There are other language channels? |
| 18:33 | eggsby | it's crazy to have a convo about this sort of stuff without it devolving into YA BUT MY WAY |
| 18:33 | hiredman | didn't they used to be a github graph on repos that would give you a line of code count? |
| 18:33 | imeredith | eggsby: thats the problem with #scala lol |
| 18:34 | technomancy_ | hiredman: they removed a bunch of graphs for some reason |
| 18:34 | hiredman | :/ |
| 18:35 | technomancy_ | hiredman: ohloh has those graphs though |
| 18:35 | hiredman | the code freq graph may work for me |
| 18:35 | imeredith | people mistake complexity for unfamiliarity - i am unfamiliar with clojure - to the point of it seeming complex - but i would never say its complex |
| 18:35 | hiredman | https://github.com/scala/scala/graphs/code-frequency https://github.com/scala/scala/graphs/code-frequency |
| 18:35 | hiredman | whoops |
| 18:35 | Frozenlock | dnolen: Thanks for the domina cue, it's very nice! |
| 18:35 | hiredman | https://github.com/clojure/clojure/graphs/code-frequency |
| 18:36 | technomancy_ | I wish it would distinguish between implementation and test source, but I understand why that's hard |
| 18:36 | hiredman | which library are you going to want to wade through when something doesn't work? |
| 18:36 | mk | imeredith: what counts as complex, then? |
| 18:37 | technomancy_ | hiredman: I'd take clojure circa late 2009 =) |
| 18:37 | dnolen | Frozenlock: glad you like it! |
| 18:37 | mk | imeredith: in most contexts, complex is "I have to know a lot to use this" |
| 18:37 | hiredman | technomancy_: request denied |
| 18:37 | hiredman | technomancy_: sure line count can't be the only metric |
| 18:37 | imeredith | mk: well, in that context clojure is complex |
| 18:38 | eggsby | ~simple v. easy~ |
| 18:38 | hiredman | but, when you are talking about reading the codebase, it is a decent one |
| 18:38 | clojurebot | forget ~paste is gist |
| 18:38 | technomancy_ | hiredman: reminds me of https://github.com/technomancy/bludgeon |
| 18:38 | imeredith | mk: i think things are simple when you can reason over them - referential transperncy for example is easy to reason over |
| 18:39 | mk | eggsby: good presentation, but I think that that particular distinction is more marketing than substance |
| 18:40 | mk | imeredith: maybe... I mean, in general, we want a the language to correspond as much as possible to good ways of thinking about programs |
| 18:40 | eggsby | really? if only for the distinction between simplicity as a lack of logical interweaving and easiness as familiarity I thought it was huge (but maybe it's because I previously wasnt so aware of the disctintion) |
| 18:41 | imeredith | mk: right, but you can find examples in any language that is terrible |
| 18:41 | thorbjornDX | Thread thread = new Thread() |
| 18:42 | imeredith | mk: but java vs scala, in scala people generally use vals, so dont end up mutating variables, just because it has the construct 'val' |
| 18:42 | technomancy_ | Malkovitch malkovitch = new Malkovitch(); |
| 18:42 | imeredith | so you are right |
| 18:42 | imeredith | but only to a point |
| 18:44 | mk | eggsby: yeah, agreed. But the two opposites were stuck together in a "complected" way, from what I recall. What does familiarity have to do with non-interweaving? I thought it was a great and justified attack on oo, and on choosing to stick with it because it's something you know well |
| 18:44 | imeredith | one day ill get around to clojure, i refuse to comment for/against clojure specifically until ive used it a bit. |
| 18:47 | mk | hiredman: what do those charts represent? |
| 18:55 | jkkramer | been doing a project in scala play framework lately. no comparison - ring/compojure is vastly simpler and easier to understand, write code for, etc |
| 18:56 | imeredith | jkkramer: unforunatly there is lots of play that is crap - there is no really good scala framework |
| 18:56 | jkkramer | in play, they say it's basically request -> fn(s) -> response, but in practice everything is locked inside types and class/object hierarchies |
| 18:56 | imeredith | ? |
| 18:56 | SegFaultAX|work2 | This is my answer to 4clojure 75, how can I make it better? https://www.refheap.com/paste/4687 |
| 18:56 | imeredith | that is the one thing of play that is good Request => Response |
| 18:57 | jkkramer | conceptually yes. in practice it's Controller/Action/Response, which all have peculiarities and can be difficult to compose |
| 18:57 | mk | SegFaultAX|work2: if you've submitted, you can subscribe to other people, and view their answers |
| 18:58 | jkkramer | in ring, you get a request map - just a plain hash map. a function operates on it, and returns another simple map. so simple. |
| 18:58 | SegFaultAX|work2 | mk: Real-time feedback is useful for my learning. |
| 18:58 | mk | SegFaultAX|work2: yep, probably for everyone's. But if you haven't already, check those out, you'll see some pretty cool and weird solutions |
| 18:58 | technomancy_ | heroku's play support strips out the repl at deploy time =( |
| 18:59 | imeredith | jkkramer: well, ill disagree on this point :) |
| 19:00 | jkkramer | that's the other thing - the play console stinks. you can't even query the DB easily. runtime config is a big hairball |
| 19:00 | imeredith | yes ill aggree with that |
| 19:00 | imeredith | its a real pita |
| 19:00 | imeredith | as i said, Request => Response is the one good thing play has |
| 19:00 | imeredith | heh |
| 19:01 | jkkramer | but the feedback loop is slow and cumbersome |
| 19:01 | jkkramer | it's hard(er) to build small, composable pieces |
| 19:01 | imeredith | well, thats because the scala compiler is slow - but i dont aggree with composable |
| 19:02 | imeredith | jkkramer: in play1/play2 with java the feedback is really good - but yeah...java |
| 19:03 | imeredith | i dont like the whole refresh thing anyway, i just have the compiler in the background validating the code as i save |
| 19:03 | jkkramer | it's a matter of degree. it's composable, yes, but full of warts and weirdness |
| 19:03 | jkkramer | enough grousing form me. gotta run |
| 19:03 | jkkramer | *from |
| 19:22 | gfredericks | emezeske: ping |
| 19:27 | emezeske | gfredericks: pong |
| 19:28 | gfredericks | emezeske: was wondering if you could give me some tips to debugging my checkouts issue (mentioned on github) |
| 19:28 | gfredericks | `lein classpath` includes the relevant src-cljs directories |
| 19:29 | emezeske | Yeah, that is a weird problem |
| 19:30 | emezeske | A tricky thing is that the compiler runs in "eval-in-subproject", which may have a slightly different classpath |
| 19:30 | emezeske | I forget the easiest way to hack things to print the CP in the subproject |
| 19:30 | emezeske | This is lein2 right? |
| 19:30 | gfredericks | yeah |
| 19:30 | gfredericks | is it normal for the compiler not to fail when a ns isn't found? |
| 19:31 | emezeske | I think so |
| 19:32 | gfredericks | hmm |
| 19:32 | gfredericks | oh wait |
| 19:32 | gfredericks | it might be working now |
| 19:32 | gfredericks | now that I've specifically bothered you about it |
| 19:33 | gfredericks | hm; now it's missing a transitive dep (jayq) |
| 19:33 | gfredericks | curiouser and curiouser |
| 19:34 | emezeske | haha |
| 19:35 | gfredericks | well the jayq jar isn't in lib so I guess that's not cljsbuild's fault |
| 19:37 | emezeske | With lein2, the jars don't get copied into lib anymore, though, right? |
| 19:37 | gfredericks | oh that sounds right |
| 19:37 | gfredericks | must be a stale lib |
| 19:38 | gfredericks | nope not there |
| 19:38 | emezeske | What jar does your project depend on that transitively depends on jayq? |
| 19:38 | gfredericks | an unpublished one |
| 19:38 | gfredericks | I installed it locally just so mvn would shutup |
| 19:38 | gfredericks | so I should probably double-check that jar |
| 19:39 | emezeske | I would. |
| 19:40 | gfredericks | the pom.xml in there definitely mentions jayq |
| 19:40 | gfredericks | does lein have a dep tree thing yet? or do I just use maven's? |
| 19:41 | technomancy_ | gfredericks: geez; welcome to four months ago =) |
| 19:41 | technomancy_ | lein deps :tree |
| 19:41 | gfredericks | maven misses it |
| 19:42 | gfredericks | as does lein |
| 19:47 | ssurgnier | \part |
| 19:48 | gfredericks | how does lein/mvn tell from a jar that it has deps? |
| 19:48 | technomancy_ | gfredericks: deps come from poms |
| 19:48 | gfredericks | the project.clj? the META-INF/maven/group/artifact/pom.xml? |
| 19:48 | technomancy_ | the jar often happens to contain a non-canonical pom |
| 19:49 | technomancy_ | but it's the top-level pom artifact that's used |
| 19:49 | gfredericks | there is no top-level pom in this case |
| 19:49 | gfredericks | does that explain it? |
| 19:49 | technomancy_ | yeah |
| 19:49 | gfredericks | I'll try to re-jar |
| 19:51 | technomancy_ | I believe installing with mvn install:install-file will never get you dependencies |
| 19:52 | gfredericks | o_O isn't getting dependencies a separate issue from getting your pom.xml to the top-level of your jar? |
| 19:52 | technomancy_ | by "top-level" I mean "not inside a jar" |
| 19:52 | emezeske | gfredericks: Does this mean I'm off the hook? :) |
| 19:53 | gfredericks | emezeske: I think so ;) |
| 19:53 | gfredericks | technomancy_: okay so you're saying it's impossible to get transitive deps without deploying a jar to a proper maven repo? |
| 19:54 | technomancy_ | without deploying a pom |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | oh I can deploy that locally |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | right they go separate |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | okay phew |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | I expect THAT's my issue then :) |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | technomancy_: thank you sir |
| 19:54 | technomancy_ | np |
| 19:55 | technomancy_ | this is why I tell people to stay away from bare jars |
| 19:55 | technomancy_ | way more trouble than it's worth |
| 19:55 | gfredericks | it didn't occur to me that maven wouldn't pull the pom out of my jar |
| 19:56 | gfredericks | oh man lein2 deps doesn't tell me the maven cmd for local installation anymore |
| 19:56 | technomancy_ | that's because install:install-file is hell of sketchy |
| 19:57 | gfredericks | even if you install the pom with it? |
| 19:57 | technomancy_ | for anything but experimentation, yes |
| 19:57 | technomancy_ | because as soon as you try to hack the project on someone else's machine it'll break |
| 19:58 | gfredericks | it's an alternative to running your own private maven thinger |
| 19:58 | technomancy_ | yes, just not a good alternative =) |
| 19:58 | technomancy_ | s3 is super cheap |
| 19:59 | hiredman | maven repos are just dumb http end points |
| 19:59 | technomancy_ | that too |
| 19:59 | technomancy_ | even nexus is easy to set up |
| 19:59 | hiredman | running one is super simple |
| 19:59 | hiredman | you can even act as a maven repo from s3 without using the s3-wagon or whatever |
| 20:00 | hiredman | just server the files from s3 over http |
| 20:00 | technomancy_ | hiredman: is that easy to do with basic-auth? |
| 20:00 | gfredericks | step 0: set up s3 |
| 20:00 | hiredman | technomancy_: no |
| 20:00 | hiredman | actaully I dunno |
| 20:00 | hiredman | never tried |
| 20:00 | hiredman | just public stuff |
| 20:00 | hiredman | you can literally just upload the directory out of your .m2 to create a maven repo |
| 20:01 | technomancy_ | eh... I don't think you get checksums that way |
| 20:01 | technomancy_ | better to lein deploy to /tmp/myrepo and rsync that |
| 20:01 | hiredman | *shrug* |
| 20:01 | technomancy_ | I should look into documenting the scp wagon; that would probably be simpler for a lot of people |
| 20:02 | hiredman | my .m2 seems to contain .sha1 and .md5 files |
| 20:02 | technomancy_ | huh; maybe that's new with aether |
| 20:02 | technomancy_ | that's cool |
| 20:02 | technomancy_ | someone should document that |
| 20:02 | gfredericks | (inc technomancy) |
| 20:02 | lazybot | ⇒ 39 |
| 20:02 | gfredericks | thanks folks |
| 20:13 | casion | so since swank-clojure is depreciated, is there any good explanations of an nrepl workflow with emacs? |
| 20:13 | technomancy_ | casion: it's very similar; just replace clojure-jack-in with nrepl-jack-in |
| 20:15 | casion | guess I need to move to lein 2 then |
| 20:39 | Raynes | casion: Should have already done that. |
| 21:58 | cjfrisz | Man, how come it's so quiet around here lately? |
| 21:59 | casion | in my experience it's usually quiet around this time |
| 22:00 | talios | Afternoon |
| 22:00 | brehaut | hi talios |
| 22:00 | talios | 'lo brehaut |
| 22:01 | cjfrisz | casion: Huh...I must have used to get on earlier |
| 22:01 | cjfrisz | Or later, not sure which |
| 22:05 | mk | you can always run stats on the logs to know for sure |
| 22:21 | jacobsen | Hi all, is there a standard way to address "return code 405" errors when deploying to Clojars with leiningen 1.7? |
| 22:24 | xeqi | jacobsen: hm, 405 should happen when deploying to clojars.org/ instead of clojars.org/repo |
| 22:24 | jacobsen | in case it's helpful, https://gist.github.com/3506189 |
| 22:25 | jacobsen | It does say it's trying to deploy to clojars.org/repo ... |
| 22:25 | xeqi | doesn't look like thats the case for that... |
| 22:30 | cjfrisz | In the course of writing CTCO, I think I've written and scrapped 3 versions of alpha-renaming |
| 22:30 | cjfrisz | And I'm just about to write another one |
| 22:30 | cjfrisz | But I think this one is actually going to stay |
| 22:31 | akhudek | ctco? |
| 22:31 | casion | ctco? |
| 22:31 | uvtc | CTCO? |
| 22:31 | emezeske | C T C O ? |
| 22:31 | casion | eieio? |
| 22:31 | cjfrisz | C |
| 22:31 | cjfrisz | T |
| 22:31 | cjfrisz | C |
| 22:31 | cjfrisz | O |
| 22:31 | cjfrisz | ? |
| 22:31 | emezeske | ^_^ |
| 22:32 | cjfrisz | https://github.com/cjfrisz/clojure-tco |
| 22:32 | akhudek | Nice. That's what I hoped you meant! :-) |
| 22:33 | casion | oh, you're the guy who did that presentation on tail calls in cojure |
| 22:33 | cjfrisz | I am |
| 22:33 | emezeske | cjfrisz: Wow, that's crazy! |
| 22:33 | casion | 'that guy' |
| 22:33 | casion | I enjoyed the presentation |
| 22:34 | cjfrisz | Thanks |
| 22:34 | xeqi | jacobsen: hmm, I see the GETs in the server logs, but not a PUT. Are you using a proxy perchance? |
| 22:34 | mk | link to presentation? |
| 22:34 | cjfrisz | I submitted to do an expanded version at Clojure/Conj |
| 22:34 | akhudek | cool, would like to see that |
| 22:34 | cjfrisz | http://www.chrisfrisz.com/blog/?p=220 |
| 22:35 | cjfrisz | yeah, I've been working both on improving CTCO and writing a whole-program compiler that'll do some smarter analysis and hopefully produce noticeably faster code |
| 22:35 | cjfrisz | So hopefully I have the snazzy compiler ready for my talk...if it gets picked |
| 22:36 | cjfrisz | And at some point, I'm supposed to write tools.cps |
| 22:37 | xeqi | jacobsen: oh, I notice its pushing to http, you need to use https. check out https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/Pushing |
| 22:37 | amalloy | cjfrisz: is CTCO basically resolving down to (trampoline (lambdas....)), or is it doing smarter stuff to avoid creating functions entirely via eg loop/recur? |
| 22:38 | cjfrisz | amalloy: It's a somewhat smarter version of the former |
| 22:38 | cjfrisz | amalloy: Part of the point is to allow arbitrary mutual recursion, so loop/recur won't work for that case |
| 22:39 | amalloy | if they're actual tail-calls, can't you rewrite that as a loop-recur? |
| 22:40 | jacobsen | xeqi: thanks, I'll check that out |
| 22:40 | cjfrisz | amalloy: That's certainly possible |
| 22:41 | cjfrisz | amalloy: And I was thinking about that in the last few days |
| 22:41 | amalloy | cool! i can just barely write my own CPS programs, and transform them to CPS w/loop-recur with some effort; just interested in seeing how all your stuff works |
| 22:46 | gfredericks | woah lazybot monitors pings |
| 22:46 | gfredericks | (inc lazybot) |
| 22:46 | lazybot | ⇒ 6 |
| 22:47 | mk | monitors pings? |
| 22:47 | Raynes | mk: Type 'Raynes: ping' |
| 22:47 | mk | Raynes: ping |
| 22:48 | Raynes | Hi there. |
| 22:48 | gfredericks | it happened in my freenode buffer so I didn't notice till much later |
| 22:48 | Raynes | You should now have a NOTICE, mk. |
| 22:48 | cjfrisz | amalloy: Yeah, when I stopped and thought about it, I realized that loop/recur without the thunks could be a noticeable savings |
| 22:48 | gfredericks | ,(println "gfredericks: ping") |
| 22:48 | clojurebot | gfredericks: ping |
| 22:48 | mk | in fact I do have a notice. That's neat |
| 22:48 | cjfrisz | amalloy: But in compilers, you never know. Things that seem like obvious wins sometimes turn out to only marginally help |
| 22:49 | TimMc | TimMc: ping |
| 22:49 | mk | I like how it gives me the turnaround time down to the millisecond |
| 22:49 | amalloy | true |
| 22:49 | cjfrisz | And then sometimes you mess up the code layout just enough with an optimization that you get caching effects that actually make things slower |
| 22:49 | TimMc | :-( |
| 22:49 | amalloy | mk: only because it was recent. if you ping rhickey and he gets back to you two days later, you just get days/hours |
| 22:49 | Raynes | Raynes: ping |
| 22:49 | Raynes | hi self |
| 22:49 | Raynes | Cool, I can ping myself. |
| 22:49 | TimMc | Ah, I see. |
| 22:50 | mk | amalloy: right. Still, though |
| 22:50 | gfredericks | keep that to yourself |
| 22:50 | cjfrisz | gfredericks: I lol'd |
| 22:50 | Raynes | Hah |
| 22:50 | gfredericks | cjfrisz: phew |
| 22:50 | Raynes | gfredericks: You and are are in constant competition for the most snark, aren't we? |
| 22:51 | gfredericks | are are are are |
| 22:51 | gfredericks | and |
| 22:51 | Raynes | I'm sorely insufficient. |
| 22:52 | gfredericks | and now your grandchildren will be able to read about it on clojure-log.n01se.net |
| 22:53 | tmciver | TimMc: were you looking for 'the other' Tim Mc? |
| 22:53 | TimMc | Nope. |
| 22:53 | tmciver | would the real Tim Mc please stand up? |
| 22:54 | TimMc | But both of us do! |
| 22:54 | TimMc | (Explanation for the rest of the channel: We both have standing workstations.) |
| 22:55 | casion | people actually use those? |
| 22:55 | casion | I thought that was some sort of april fools thing |
| 22:55 | cjfrisz | Not at all |
| 22:55 | cjfrisz | We've got a few in my office, and I am jealous |
| 22:56 | cjfrisz | I'm even more jealous of the one walking desk |
| 22:56 | casion | why? |
| 22:56 | clojurebot | why not? |
| 22:56 | amalloy | ninjudd and lancepantz both use standing desks; ninjudd has a treadmill |
| 22:56 | casion | because! |
| 22:56 | casion | really though, why would anyone want to use a standing workstation? |
| 22:56 | TimMc | One of the execs at my office has a treadmill! |
| 22:56 | mk | I've got a standing desk as well, small world |
| 22:56 | cjfrisz | casion: Good for the circulation |
| 22:56 | amalloy | and posture |
| 22:57 | wmealing_ | Ive got a squat rack. |
| 22:57 | TimMc | casion: It really helped my RSI, it forces me to take typing breaks, I get less sleepy... |
| 22:57 | cjfrisz | casion: Also fights off a number of teh problems associated with sitting at a desk 8+ per day |
| 22:57 | tmciver | because we weren't meant to sit in front of a keyboard all day. |
| 22:57 | TimMc | RSI was the main thing. |
| 22:57 | cjfrisz | Yes, all of those things |
| 22:57 | metellus | we weren't really meant to stand in front of a keyboard all day either |
| 22:57 | casion | tmciver: we also weren't meant to stand in one place for 8+ hours a day |
| 22:57 | cjfrisz | I'm planning on setting up a standing desk in the near future |
| 22:57 | cjfrisz | casion: Most people I know don't use them for the whole day |
| 22:58 | casion | cjfrisz: well that'd be useful I guess |
| 22:58 | mk | casion: a standing desk forces you to take breaks if you're not up for it, a chair doesn't |
| 22:58 | casion | I understand why someone else may want to use it now, thank you for the responses |
| 22:58 | tmciver | casion: true, but hopefully standing AND sitting for 8+ hours a day is better than doing just one of those. |
| 22:59 | TimMc | casion: There are also sit/stand workstations, although I prefer being forced by leg fatigue to sit down and stop typing periodically. |
| 22:59 | cjfrisz | Though I'm pretty impressed that the guy who has the walking desk pretty well uses it all day every day |
| 22:59 | casion | I get up from my chair constantly through the day |
| 22:59 | TimMc | cjfrisz: No kidding? That's gotta be good for him. |
| 22:59 | casion | it never occured to me that there's people who don't take constant breaks and move around |
| 23:00 | cjfrisz | casion: I'm also like you, which is part of what draws me to it, actually |
| 23:00 | cjfrisz | I move around enough that I think the idea of standing for a while is more freeing than sitting all the time |
| 23:00 | cjfrisz | I've done some time at the walking desk and I find it really nice |
| 23:01 | TimMc | I used to sit on an exercise ball, which kept me a moving a bit. |
| 23:01 | casion | it sounds useful for some folks |
| 23:01 | casion | I would never do it though |
| 23:01 | TimMc | Unfortunately, it's also easy to have *terrible* posture on those. |
| 23:01 | cjfrisz | TimMc: I'm afraid I'd fall into that category |
| 23:01 | casion | I sit on a chair with no back, and no arms |
| 23:01 | mk | TimMc: how's that? |
| 23:01 | casion | sometimes I sit on the floor |
| 23:02 | casion | maybe if one day I can get comfortable shoes I'll try the standing |
| 23:02 | TimMc | mk: Hard to describe in text. :-) |
| 23:02 | TimMc | casion: Barefoot. Seriously. |
| 23:02 | mk | TimMc: ascii art? ;) |
| 23:03 | TimMc | mk: Well... butt far back on the ball, torso leaned forward, forearms resting on desk edge, elbows splayed. |
| 23:03 | TimMc | It's not a very dignified posture either. :-P |
| 23:03 | casion | TimMc: I'd love to but I have to walk through my metal shop all day long |
| 23:03 | TimMc | casion: Oof. Got it. |
| 23:04 | casion | I've done it once... |
| 23:04 | casion | stitches were involved |
| 23:04 | gfredericks | Raynes: if I'm in a snark competition with you, I consider that to be a success already |
| 23:05 | casion | do you guys use purpose built standing desks? or just rig something together |
| 23:05 | mk | TimMc: I see. Yeah, I think the easiest way to go wrong is to rely on something to prop yourself |
| 23:07 | jacobsen | xeqi: thanks again, migrating to lein2 seems to have done the trick |
| 23:07 | TimMc | casion: Jerry-rigged. Monitor on cube shelf, mouse on a pile of boxes, keyboard on a LapDawg the CEO dug out of a corner of his office. |
| 23:08 | TimMc | The LapDawg is slightly more bouncy than I'd like, but it's hella adjustable. |
| 23:09 | casion | TimMc: sounds good |
| 23:32 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, still can reproduce it in lxc... openssl s_client -conect github.com:443 without -CApath fails |
| 23:33 | hoover_damm | technomancy_, curl seems to be adding the capath by default where wget isn't |
| 23:33 | hoover_damm | weird |
| 23:35 | hoover_damm | feels like new behavior |
| 23:42 | gfredericks | any guesses why org-html-slideshow depends on clojurescript-one? what does that provide? |
| 23:43 | emezeske | gfredericks: Oh god... |
| 23:43 | gfredericks | emezeske: I was aiming to port this to lein-cljsbuild |
| 23:43 | gfredericks | but it'd help if I understood it first :) |
| 23:44 | emezeske | Yeah, that's mighty weird |
| 23:44 | gfredericks | it's not a proper lein dep |
| 23:44 | gfredericks | I'm not sure how they pull it in |
| 23:44 | emezeske | Maybe it uses some utility namespace or something |
| 23:45 | gfredericks | one.dispatch is the ns they use |
| 23:46 | gfredericks | looks like a bunch of eventing; they use it a lot |
| 23:52 | gfredericks | that namespace is about 30 lines of actual code, and that's the only thing it uses from one; would it be bad form to just paste it in to get rid of the dep? |
| 23:54 | gfredericks | also cljsbuild is crashing saying it can't find cljs/analyzer.clj; it's doing that in two different projects now |
| 23:54 | emezeske | Regarding the 30-line file, I'm pretty sure they never intended for clojurescript-one to be used as a library. Pasting it is probably the best choice. |
| 23:54 | emezeske | Regarding the crash, I've never seen that before. |
| 23:55 | gfredericks | I bet it will once again somehow turn out to be maven |
| 23:55 | gfredericks | oh maybe this is because org-html-slideshow declares a particular CLJS version? |
| 23:56 | gfredericks | in particular, "0.0-971" |
| 23:57 | gfredericks | what version does cljsbuild want? |
| 23:57 | emezeske | Oh god, that is so. ridiculously. old. |
| 23:57 | emezeske | cljsbuild will pull in 0.0-1450 if left to its own devices |
| 23:58 | gfredericks | cool thx |
| 23:58 | emezeske | You shouldn't use anything but 0.0-1450 unless you're prepared to debug differences between lein-cljsbuild and clojurescript |
| 23:58 | emezeske | (i.e. that's the version combo I've tested) :) |