#clojure – 2012-08-27

2012-08-27

00:58	Sgeo	So, is my unamb too dangerous to use due to possible uncollectable garbage creation?
00:58	Sgeo	(The creation of unstoppable infinite looping threads)
01:06	wmealing_	Sgeo: when you say it like that.. it sounds like an evil creation.. just saying
01:07	wmealing_	all that is missing is maniacal laughter
01:18	gzmask	Hey folks, I got a question about overtone: why the saw function in the tutorial has three parameters? I checked odoc and it only requires one. Code: https://github.com/overtone/overtone/blob/master/src/overtone/examples/getting_started/basic.clj#L9
01:53	emezeske	gzmask: That's one one parameter -- it's a vector of length three
01:53	emezeske	gzmask: From looking at that code, I'd guess that each entry in the vector will produce an additional saw wave
01:53	emezeske	gzmask: It's pretty common to stack multiple detuned saws to get a "fat" sound
02:09	Sgeo	ClojureScript doesn't have promises?
02:10	wmealing_	empty, empty promises
02:13	emezeske	Sgeo: Javascript is single threaded, so a lot of Clojure's concurrency primitives don't make much sense. Although I guess they could be implemented in some kind of async way.
02:14	Sgeo	Promises strictly speaking don't need threading, although they might be not as useful without it
02:14	Sgeo	Although, doesn't a lot of Javascript library stuff do things that take callbacks?
02:18	Sgeo	Hmm, might not be useful without threading even there
02:18	emezeske	Tons of callbacks, everywhere.
02:19	emezeske	But I don't know how you'd implement a promise in Javascript -- you can't really do coroutines like that, AFAIK
02:19	emezeske	Maybe if there was a Thread/yield function or something that let the event loop run
02:21	emezeske	But, JS doesn't have a yield function. If it did, there could be a lot less callback soup
02:21	Sgeo	It's not a question of implemeting them, it's a question of using them usefully.
02:21	Sgeo	A promise could be as simple as a mutable container that contains either no value or a value.
02:22	Sgeo	deliver sets the value if there is no value
02:22	emezeske	I'm pretty sure that's not what a promise is in clojure.
02:23	Sgeo	Although then what would deref do if there is no value... "blocking" would not be ... helpful
02:23	emezeske	It's totally pointless, you can't do that in JS
02:23	Sgeo	emezeske, hmm?
02:23	Sgeo	(The "hmm" as to "not what a promise is")
02:24	emezeske	I was saying that a promise as just a "mutable container that contains eithe rno value or a value" is not what a promise is in Clojure
02:24	emezeske	The key feature of a promise in Clojure is that it "Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will
02:24	emezeske	block"
02:24	emezeske	Which you can't do in JS, so it's pointless.
02:25	Sgeo	Hmm... I'm sure someone has written continuation stuff for Clojure, that should be portable to ClojureScript right?
02:27	emezeske	The closest thing I know of to continuation passing in Clojure is trampoline
02:28	emezeske	Which should work fine in ClojureScript
02:28	amalloy	$google clojure delimc
02:28	lazybot	[swannodette/delimc · GitHub] https://github.com/swannodette/delimc
02:30	emezeske	Neato!
02:30	amalloy	do cljs atoms support watchers? if so you can build promise on top of that
02:30	ibdknox	amalloy: yes
02:30	emezeske	amalloy: How would that work?
02:31	amalloy	emezeske: actually, i think the thing i was thinking of uses promises to get blocking, so not really a viable implementation strategy for getting promises
02:31	ibdknox	you can't do it without code-rewriting
02:32	emezeske	amalloy: Yeah, the blocking-until-available part is what kills promises for the JS target
02:32	emezeske	amalloy: Even if you made deref just poll, you'd be tying up the only thread
02:32	ibdknox	you need a CPS transformer :)
02:32	emezeske	ibdknox: Yeah, it would have to turn your code into continuations behind the scenes
02:32	ibdknox	that's how the C# async stuff was done
02:32	amalloy	emezeske: presumably we've made an ajax call that's set to call something when it's completed? i don't do a lot of js, but i thought that's what people did?
02:33	emezeske	amalloy: Yeah, but if you made that async ajax call and then, e.g. went into an infinite loop, you'd never get the result
02:33	emezeske	amalloy: There's no preempting, nor yield
02:33	amalloy	for what it's worth, i was thinking of https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/state.clj#L53, which lets you block until a reference's value satisfies some condition: (wait-until evel? my-atom)
02:34	amalloy	even?
02:35	emezeske	So desu
02:36	emezeske	Hey, it's meta-circular. Just use promises to implement themselves, QED.
02:37	emezeske	If only clojure was a native browser language...
02:37	emezeske	Or really anything less stupid than JavaScript
02:38	Sgeo	Dart?
02:38	tomoj	I think it shouldn't be too hard to port lamina's async macro to cljs
02:39	tomoj	but I feel like future seqs (better channels) are more important anyway
02:39	emezeske	Sgeo: Heh, NaCl running a java vm running clojure? Hell yeah.
02:39	emezeske	Yo dawg...
02:41	Sgeo	"Why is it so bad with many threads you might wonder. Well, first of all they are expensive, both in the JVM and on .NET."
02:41	Sgeo	:/
02:41	Sgeo	Haskell has rather lightweight threading
02:42	emezeske	Java threading may not be the lightest weight thing ever, but I think quite a few shops get by with ridiculous numbers of threads
02:43	emezeske	Anyway, pooling often makes more sense anyway. Even greenlets have some overhead.
02:49	nkkarthik	In lein2 project.clj, how can I include some jars in the lib folder?
02:51	amalloy	~repeataibility
02:51	wmealing_	i used lein-localrepo
02:51	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
02:51	amalloy	~repeatability
02:51	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
02:51	wmealing_	but i a agree with amalloy
02:51	wmealing_	you'll get less suck if you make it work.. ie publish your jars
02:52	amalloy	don't agree with me, that's technomancy's article. i mean, i basically agree with it, but even if you disagree you should read: iirc it includes workarounds, as well as an explanation of why you shouldn't use them
02:55	Sgeo	Workarounds?
02:55	nkkarthik	wmealing_, amalloy... thank you... so there is only the holy approach
02:56	Sgeo	I take it things like Smalltalk and certain Common Lisp implementations are poisonous?
02:56	wmealing_	Sgeo: localrepo,
02:57	Sgeo	iirc SBCL was forked from CMU CL in order to have a cleaner build process
02:57	wmealing_	is it easy to run your own .. clojars ?
02:57	nkkarthik	what's the harm in quickly testing out a jar?
02:58	nkkarthik	why have a repl then... repl is neither used in build or production
03:00	nkkarthik	I think, tool should allow good practices not mandate them with one holy approach
03:00	nkkarthik	but I might be wrong
03:00	nkkarthik	anyways thank you guys... and sorry if I have said something wrong out of ignorance
03:01	nkkarthik	I will look at the localrepo
03:09	emezeske	nkkarthik: I gather that :extra-classpath-dirs was something of a pain from a support perspective /speculation
03:11	nkkarthik	emezeske: oh... you mean for lein developers or extra-classpath-dirs users?
03:12	devn	,(require '[clojure.pprint :as pp])
03:12	clojurebot	nil
03:12	emezeske	nkkarthik: For developers.
03:12	emezeske	Pure speculation on my part, though.
03:13	nkkarthik	emezeske: oh ok
03:13	devn	(with-out-str (pp/with-pprint-dispatch pp/code-dispatch (pp/pprint (read-string "(let [f (^:once fn* [x] x)] [(f 1) (f 2)])")))
03:14	devn	,(with-out-str (pp/with-pprint-dispatch pp/code-dispatch (pp/pprint (read-string "(let [f (^:once fn* [x] x)] [(f 1) (f 2)])")))
03:14	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
03:14	devn	,(with-out-str (pp/with-pprint-dispatch pp/code-dispatch (pp/pprint (read-string "(let [f (^:once fn* [x] x)] [(f 1) (f 2)])"))))
03:14	Sgeo	Why are macros not allowed in the sandbox?
03:14	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
03:14	nkkarthik	emezeske: thank you... I will try out something else then
03:14	hyPiRion	Sgeo: Macros are allowed, but defs aren't
03:14	Sgeo	&(defmacr sg-macro [])
03:14	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: defmacr in this context
03:14	Sgeo	&(defmacro sg-macro [])
03:14	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
03:14	hyPiRion	afaik
03:14	Sgeo	Oh
03:15	devn	can anyone help me figure out the above mystery
03:15	devn	Is it complaining about the (^:once...)
03:15	hyPiRion	,(with-out-str (pp/with-pprint-dispatch pp/code-dispatch (pp/pprint (read-string "(let [f (fn* [x] x)] [(f 1) (f 2)])"))))
03:15	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
03:15	Sgeo
03:15	hyPiRion	doesn't look like it.
03:16	devn	the use of fn* is weird
03:16	hyPiRion	devn: oh, blimey
03:17	devn	,(fn* [x] (+ x 1))
03:17	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval135$fn__136 sandbox$eval135$fn__136@695d9f0>
03:17	devn	,((fn* [x] (+ x 1)) 100)
03:17	clojurebot	101
03:17	hyPiRion	,(with-out-str (pp/with-pprint-dispatch pp/code-dispatch (pp/pprint (read-string "(let [f (^:once fn* ([x] x))] [(f 1) (f 2)])"))))
03:17	clojurebot	"(let [f (fn* ([x] x))] [(f 1) (f 2)])\n"
03:17	Sgeo	What's fn*?
03:17	devn	hyPiRion: except!
03:17	devn	the former is valid clojure
03:18	hyPiRion	yeah, I noticed.
03:18	devn	,(let [f (^:once fn* [x] x)] [(f 1) (f 2)])
03:18	clojurebot	[1 2]
03:18	hyPiRion	,(let [f (^:once fn* [x] x)] (mapv f [1 2]))
03:18	clojurebot	[1 2]
03:18	devn	:(
03:18	noidi	,(doc fn*)
03:18	clojurebot	Excuse me?
03:19	devn	,(use 'clojure.repl)
03:19	clojurebot	nil
03:19	devn	,(doc fn*)
03:19	clojurebot	No entiendo
03:19	hyPiRion	$source fn*
03:19	lazybot	Source not found.
03:19	devn	fn* is internal
03:19	devn	but obviously not that internal
03:20	hyPiRion	It's in the clojure/java transition area, isn't it?
03:20	devn	transition area?
03:20	devn	(yes if you mean what i think you mean)
03:21	hyPiRion	the area where clojure fns are written in java
03:21	hyPiRion	or converted/parsed
03:21	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(fn [x] x))
03:21	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([x] x))
03:21	amalloy	fn* forms are always generated with the wrapped parens, so pprint probably relies on that. if you're creating fn* forms yourself, you probably shouldn't be
03:22	amalloy	oh, except that the lazy-seq macro generates the thing you pasted?
03:22	devn	amalloy: nod I think so
03:22	amalloy	it does. i don't really use pprint much, so i'm not bothered or surprised that it's broken
03:23	devn	amalloy: im not bothered or surprised either, but i figure it was worth asking
03:23	devn	well, let me elaborate
03:23	devn	i was surprised, but after talking it out I'm not bother, nor do I think it is generally surprising
03:24	devn	bothered*
03:27	devn	amalloy: thanks for the help
03:27	devn	amalloy: clojure/conj this year?
03:28	amalloy	not planning on it
03:28	devn	:(
03:30	magopian	man kodowa is recruiting
03:30	magopian	that is just so awesome
04:00	Sgeo	How careful do I have to be to avoid accidentally rebinding functions?
04:00	Sgeo	I know Lisp-2 proponents say things like they like not having to name variables lst, but what if you do in Clojure name a variable list?
04:00	Sgeo	In a local binding, I mean?
04:01	hyPiRion	Sgeo: it's not a problem
04:01	hyPiRion	,(let [list '[a-list of elements]] (println list))
04:01	clojurebot	[a-list of elements]
04:02	hyPiRion	,(let [f (fn [a] (let [list [1 2 3]] (a list)))] (f list))
04:02	clojurebot	([1 2 3])
04:02	Sgeo	Hmm. Suppose a macro expands into some code that uses list, and you've rebound list like that?
04:02	Sgeo	And use the macro from within there?
04:03	hyPiRion	Use gensyms if that's a problem
04:03	amalloy	Sgeo: then the macro is badly written
04:03	Sgeo	...for using the list function?
04:03	amalloy	&`(list 1 2 3)
04:03	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/list 1 2 3)
04:03	hyPiRion	Oh, right
04:03	hyPiRion	they are namespaced, so it shouldn't be a problem
04:03	hyPiRion	unless you go full retard with ##`(,'list 1 2 3) it should be okay
04:03	lazybot	⇒ ((quote clojure.core/list) 1 2 3)
04:04	hyPiRion	,`(~'list 1 2 3)
04:04	clojurebot	(list 1 2 3)
04:04	hyPiRion	i mean.
04:05	Chousuke	usually hygiene isn't a problem with clojure macros
04:05	Sgeo	&(let [list '(1 2 3)] (namespace 'list))
04:05	lazybot	⇒ nil
04:05	Sgeo	(namespace 'list)
04:05	Sgeo	&(namespace 'list)
04:05	lazybot	⇒ nil
04:07	Chousuke	it's difficult to screw things up so that you get hidden misbehaviour
04:08	hyPiRion	Chousuke: Well, yeah, as long as you know about gensyms, you should be fine
04:08	Chousuke	you don't even need gensyms, though they make things easier.
04:08	hyPiRion	Oh, you do.
04:08	Sgeo	Uh. I think writing macros without knowing gensyms is probably a recipe for failure.
04:08	Chousuke	oh, wait, yeah. I was thinking of autogensyms
04:09	hyPiRion	Well, autogensyms are just syntactic sugar. But it's very clean though.
04:10	Chousuke	it's a good feature. no point in leaving it out :)
04:11	hyPiRion	Clojure itself seems like the royal bathroom if you compare it to common lisp.
04:12	Sgeo	There are some things in Common Lisp I like. The ability to rename namespaces, the condition system
04:12	Chousuke	The best feature Clojure has is all the features together. :P
04:12	Chousuke	none of them alone is anything earth-shattering but the way Clojure combines everything just works nicely.
04:13	Sgeo	And then protocols get thrown in the mix in a non-interchangeable way with multimethods
04:14	Chousuke	how could they be interchangeable?
04:14	Chousuke	besides both creating functions as the interface.
04:14	Sgeo	Well, protocols could be built on top of multimethods in a clear way.
04:15	Chousuke	no they couldn't.
04:15	Chousuke	they wouldn't perform well enough
04:15	tomoj	:D
04:15	Chousuke	the whole point of having protocols in addition to multimethods is performance :P
05:40	nz-	what is the home row?
05:42	hughfdjackson	asdfjkl;
05:42	hughfdjackson	nz-: isn't it those keys on your keyboard? ^
05:43	hughfdjackson	asdf on your left hand, jkl; on your right; where your fingers should (in theory) rest
05:43	hughfdjackson	:3 or am i wildly off the mark here?
05:43	magopian	hughfdjackson: i would have answered nearly the exact same
05:43	magopian	nz-: the "home row" is the middle row, the one which has two keys with "bumps" on them
05:44	magopian	those keys are where the index of both your hands should 'rest'
05:44	nz-	goofed with irc history, somebody answered already
06:00	Sgeo	Is Clojure arithmatic really supposed to take 1/10th of a second?
06:00	Sgeo	Clojure> (time (* 1 1))
06:00	Sgeo	"Elapsed time: 103.083431 msecs"
06:01	Sgeo	(On tryclj.com )
06:01	magopian	$(time -
06:01	magopian	$(time (* 1 1))
06:02	magopian	a(time (* 1 1))
06:02	magopian	&(time (* 1 1))
06:02	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 221.855607 msecs" 1
06:02	magopian	&(time (* 1 1))
06:02	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 225.222137 msecs" 1
06:02	magopian	mmmm
06:02	magopian	that looks long indeed
06:02	magopian	maybe the repl is fired up each time?
06:07	algernon	probably some sandbox.
06:08	algernon	it's 0.025 locally (clojure 1.3)
06:22	Raynes	Sgeo: tryclojure and lazybot are completely worthless for benchmarking. The sandbox adds code and such.
06:22	Raynes	magopian: ^
06:49	magopian	Raynes: thanks a lot for the information ;)
07:28	Sgeo	Is it possible for the same jar to have two different versions of a library?
07:28	Sgeo	Say, if my code uses library A which relies on X version 1 and library B which relies on X version 2
07:32	Scorchin	I'm trying to write a crawler that will check that all links on pages for a given domain (e.g. mysite.com) are valid (return status 200 OK). I have an idea of what I'd like to achieve, but I'm not sure how to make it concurrent. Currently I'm starting with a set of URLs that I call, check their status, and then get a list of URLs for the same domain on the page which I add to the set to be checke
07:32	Scorchin	d. What are the best ways to tackle this in a Clojure-like way?
07:33	Scorchin	I was originally thinking about using futures, but that could bloat the number of threads
07:36	jml	I'm feeling a bit dense. How do I specify jenkins (org.jenkins-ci.jenkins) as a dependency in leiningen?
07:36	jml	I've got :repositories [["jenkins" "http://repo.jenkins-ci.org/public/"]] in my project.clj
07:37	jml	and [org.jenkins-ci/jenkins "1.26"] in the :dependencies vector
07:37	jml	and http://repo.jenkins-ci.org/public/org/jenkins-ci/jenkins/ seems to be there, merrily existing away
07:38	jml	but I get 'Could not find artifact org.jenkins-ci:jenkins:jar:1.26 in jenkins (http://repo.jenkins-ci.org/public/)' during 'lein run'
07:51	xeqi	jml: http://repo.jenkins-ci.org/public/org/jenkins-ci/jenkins/1.26/ only has a pom, so you might try :extension "pom"
07:52	Sgeo	I'm going to have to learn what a pom is, aren't I?
07:52	Sgeo	:/
07:52	xeqi	Sgeo: not usually. The jvm loads the first instance of the class it finds on the classpath, so having v1 and v2 leads to bad interaction
07:53	Sgeo	xeqi, :/
07:53	xeqi	not usually
07:53	Sgeo	I think the last time I actually liked/wanted/anything'd the JVM or the JDK was as a kid
07:53	Sgeo	I was excited by a book about Java that I bought, since I didn't see any other ways to start programming for free.
07:54	Sgeo	I eventually found Python, which was the first time I actually started writing code outside of Visual Basic and VBA
07:54	xeqi	how does python handle having two of the same library?
07:55	jml	xeqi: it takes the first thing it finds on sys.path
07:55	xeqi	sounds like the same thing to me
07:55	Sgeo	My Python mention was a tangent
07:58	magopian	poor lad, vb and vba
07:58	magopian	:)
08:06	clgv	Scorchin: you can use java's ExecutorSevices
08:09	Sgeo	I feel like I'm going to end up learning way more than I ever wanted to know about Java.
08:12	clgv	Sgeo: do not complain to soon about vague feelings ;)
08:34	llasram	Sgeo: I felt the same way at first, and everyone knows about the amazingly bad parts of the Java standard library and Java frameworks, but there's some amazingly high-quality parts too
08:35	Sgeo	Clojure wouldn't happent to have built-in not-blatent-Java-FFI file access, would it?
08:35	Sgeo	*happen
08:35	llasram	If you look at Clojure's concurrency support, it's pretty interesting how much of it is just bolting the STM to a thin veneer over the Java standard library concurrency libraries
08:35	antares_	Sgeo: clojure.java.io
09:02	jsabeaudry	Is there anything besides lein-deps-tree that will print a dependency tree for my project? (lein-deps-tree crashes on a could not locate leiningen/core/classpath__init....)
09:02	llasram	jsabeaudry: lein2, `lein deps :tree` ? Or is that what you're talking about?
09:02	clgv	jsabeaudry: lein2 deps :tree - but only for leiningen2
09:03	jsabeaudry	Oh yes, for lein 1.7.1, I'm still waiting for the official release before I move to lein2
09:04	Raynes	There isn't a real reason to do that.
09:04	llasram	I'd suggest going ahead and switching. My understanding is that the only reason technomancy hasn't done an official 2.0 release is because he's waiting on new clojars infrastructure. It's not because the lein2 codebase isn't ready
09:05	Raynes	Pretty much everyone has moved already and lein 2 is generally complete.
09:06	Raynes	But if you insist on using old lein, mvn dependency:tree should work with your lein-generated pom.xml file.
09:07	pyykkis	has anyone installed lein2 with homebrew? I wonder if there's an updated recipe somewhere or should I make pull req
09:10	clgv	pyykkis: what was different from normal lein installation with homebrew?
09:10	Raynes	The commands used. shrug
09:11	Raynes	Oh, never mind. Misunderstood the question.
09:12	pyykkis	oh, and one can actually install 2.x with 'brew install leiningen --HEAD'
09:15	pyykkis	clgv: it's pretty much the same under the hood, just easier with homebrew one-liner
09:15	pyykkis	https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/leiningen.rb
09:16	pyykkis	I wasn't awere of --HEAD flag, though. Maybe it's time to actually read homebrew docs..
09:18	clgv	pyykkis: well, that seems to get you 1.7.1
09:24	Sgeo	Don't have time to fix my copy of labrepl now, but when I get it working, does it provide a REPL in the browser, or will it expect me to do it in the REPL I launch labrepl from?
09:28	pyykkis	clgv: hm...works on my laptop?
09:28	pyykkis	$ lein version
09:28	pyykkis	Leiningen 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Java 1.7.0_05 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
09:29	clgv	pyykkis: I just read the link where 1.7.1 was explictely named. maybe there is some magic besides that.
09:29	clgv	I have not the slightest idea of how homebrew works ;)
09:31	pyykkis	clgv: there's also 'head' defined in the homebrew recipe, which points to master branch
09:32	pyykkis	..which is used with 'brew install leiningen --HEAD'
09:32	clgv	ah ok.
09:37	Sgeo	If I'm on JRE 7 why does (javadoc System) bring me to the thing for 6?
09:38	hyPiRion	$source javadoc
09:38	lazybot	Source not found.
09:38	xeqi	pyykkis: that is a weird lein version number
09:41	robermann	Sgeo: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.javadoc/javadoc
09:42	xeqi	pyykkis: I have a suspicion that your getting the 4month old -SNAPHSHT on https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/downloads
09:42	pyykkis	xeqi: well..yeah, it isn't any of the previews, it's the HEAD from master branch https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/project.clj#L4
09:43	xeqi	right, but I don't see the homebrew script bootstrapping lein
09:43	xeqi	just calling self-install, which pulls from the github download page
09:44	naeg	how often do you actually use -> and ->> in real code? like (f (g v)) instead of (-> v g f)
09:44	pyykkis	xeqi: ah..thanks, I haven't even looked so far. Maybe I'll do manual install then, afterall.
09:45	xeqi	-> is not uncommon, ->> is rarer
09:46	pyykkis	naeg: more often than not. I'd be close to say "always"
09:46	naeg	is it rarer because people just don't need ->> that often or because peopl like to write it out instead of using ->>?
09:47	xeqi	I usually start using -> when I get to a chain of 3
09:47	naeg	do other lisp's have this too? I can't remember such a macro from CL
09:47	antares_	naeg: -> is pretty commonly used. In the example you've demonstrated I just do (f (g v)), though
09:47	xeqi	->> is rarer cause things like assoc are designed for ->
09:47	robermann	Sgeo: maybe you should check/set the remote-javadocs var
09:49	jweiss	would it be frowned upon to use the extensible reader to create a group of common imports (eg, require's, use's)? like (ns blah #=(my-common-stuff-a) #=(my-common-stuff-b))
09:50	jsabeaudry	,(str (doall (map int [1 2 3 4])))
09:50	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@e93c3"
09:51	S11001001	,(str (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] nil))) ; my favorite, jsabeaudry
09:51	clojurebot	nil
09:52	jsabeaudry	S11001001, Looks good, unfortunately I cannot really appreciate it as I am not familiar with proxy :(
09:53	jsabeaudry	Ah, I think I get it, str call tostring and you deined an bject that returns nil when you call tostring on it?
09:53	hyPiRion	,(= (proxy [Object] [] (equals [x] 'foobar)) nil)
09:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Symbol>
09:54	S11001001	hyPiRion: sorry, there's only one trick :)
09:54	hyPiRion	S11001001: Apparently.
09:54	chouser	jweiss: that's an interesting idea. Certainly not one I've seen.
09:54	S11001001	,(let [snil (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] nil))] (str snil snil))
09:54	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
09:54	chouser	jweiss: where would my-common-stuff-a be defined?
09:54	S11001001	neat
09:55	S11001001	,(let [snil (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] nil))] (-> snil str str))
09:55	clojurebot	""
09:56	S11001001	the point of this being that ∃v. (str v) ≠ (str (str v))
09:57	jweiss	chouser, it'd be a function in some other namespace. i suppose i'd have to refer to it by its fully qualified name and ensure that it's already loaded.
10:04	augustl	anyone know how to get the raw Set-Cookie headers from clj-http? It seems to remove them from :headers and add the parsed result to :cookies
10:04	chouser	jweiss: yeah, interesting. The 'ns' block was supposed to be declarative so as to support tooling in general, and such use of #=() might break that. ...but I'm not aware of any tools that read the ns block anyway, so shrug
10:06	jweiss	chouser, declarative meaning a literal list and no calculated values?
10:07	chouser	well, yeah -- that's why you're having to use #=(), because the bodies are essentially quoted for you
10:08	augustl	can't find any reference to :cookies anywhere in the code of clj-http, weird
10:08	chouser	and also declarative in that ns uses :require instead of the symbol require
10:08	jeremyheiler	augustl: if you don't need the wrap-cookies middleware, you can remove it.
10:08	jeremyheiler	it's in src/clj_http/cookies.clj
10:08	augustl	ugh, was looking at someones fork on github
10:08	augustl	or something like that
10:08	jeremyheiler	ah lol
10:09	augustl	do I need to build my own set of middlewares from scratch?
10:12	augustl	by reading https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/blob/0.5.3/src/clj_http/cookies.clj#L129 you'd think setting :cookie-store to false in the request would do the trick, but that doesn't seem to help
10:13	jeremyheiler	yeah, the wrap-cookies function is the culprit.
10:13	jeremyheiler	more specifcally, decode-cookie-header
10:13	augustl	ugh, when :cookie-store is falsy, it wil use its own internal one
10:16	jeremyheiler	would it be possible just to encode the cookie again?
10:19	augustl	probably yeah
10:20	jeremyheiler	that's probably the less painful solution
10:21	robermann	in emacs, is there a way to do a "in-ns" to the namespace in the currently open .clj file?
10:23	robermann	never mind, found it: C-c M-p
10:23	robermann	(I was wrongly remembering C-c C-z)
11:12	estebann	is there any easy way to prevent c3p0 from spewing stuff into the repl? it makes useful output hard to find...
11:16	ohpauleez	lynaghk: ping
11:20	nz-	I think that c3p0 prints stuff via log4j so add log4j.xml under test. configure that log4j.xml so that nothing is printed to STDOUT
11:21	estebann	nz-: cool, thanks
11:23	nz-	estebann: example of suitable log4j.xml is here
11:23	nz-	https://github.com/korma/Korma
11:23	estebann	nz-: nice, thanks again
11:24	naeg	is someone aware of a bigger game written in a functional language? preferably clojure, but doesn't have to be
11:25	ejackson	dammit - laziness kicks my arse again !
11:25	psii	naeg: what do you mean by "bigger"?
11:27	jml	what do I need to add to my projects.clj to be able to depend on Jenkins (in order to be able to make a jenkins plugin)? (a pom.xml here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1170038/; generated by following instructions at https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Plugin+tutorial#Plugintutorial-SettingUpEnvironmen)
11:29	naeg	psii: just more than a few hundred lines
11:29	psii	naeg: http://joyridelabs.de -- although in haskell
11:29	naeg	psii: the actual question is whether the functional style could extend to larger (2d) games
11:29	psii	well then, this link is for you :)
11:30	naeg	thanks psii
11:31	jml	I think I'm just a vanilla fool
11:39	xeqi	jml: you might be able to figure it out by reading https://github.com/pyr/jenkins-leiningen 's pom
11:40	xeqi	though I'm not sure there is an equivalent for plugin-repositories ...
11:41	jml	xeqi: thanks. I'm looking for an equivalent projects.clj, but I think I've got something that's working well enough for me to move on to the next problem :)
11:41	xeqi	I think you could use :pom-additions for that, but its prolly not well documented
11:41	jml	is there a syntax for importing inner classes?
11:41	xeqi	OuterClass$InnerClass
11:42	jml	thanks
11:44	TimMc	jml: Inner classes are a Java lie. :-)
11:45	TimMc	s/lie/concept/
11:46	unlink	`lein ring server` takes a shocking long time to start (~15 seconds), and code reloading is anything but infallible. How do people work around this?
11:47	weavejester	unlink: There's something wrong with the code reloading I need to look into. I suspect the namespace dependencies aren't being calculated correctly.
11:48	unlink	Oh, OK.
11:48	weavejester	unlink: In the meantime, you could always start a server in a REPL and reload manually
11:49	unlink	How would I do that?
11:49	weavejester	unlink: (run-jetty your-handler {:join? false :port 3000})
11:49	weavejester	unlink: And then (require 'your.namespace :reload-all)
11:50	unlink	oh, great. I'll try that.
11:50	brainproxy	I like to do it the other way around; I use `lein ring server ...` to fire up the dev server, and inside whatev.core I fire up a repl server which I can connect to from emacs
11:50	augustl	unlink: I've had problems with code reloading as well, for what it's worth :)
11:50	augustl	so you're not alone
11:51	weavejester	It probably won't be too long until I fix the namespace reloading, as I'm getting bored of it myself.
11:51	augustl	some times I get a 500 error in the form of a blank page, and then on the next request everything works, as it was before I changed the code and introduced the error. I very rarely get the stack trace etc.
11:51	weavejester	I suspect the problem is in the ns-tracker library
11:51	weavejester	augustl: That indicates a compile error. e.g. the require itself is failing
11:52	augustl	ah, I see
11:52	weavejester	augustl: And because the require throws an exception, it's not loading the new code.
11:52	thorbjornDX	Is there a well-defined C interface for clojure/java?
11:52	augustl	in this case I'm one of those "I don't care I just want it to work" peeps :)
11:52	weavejester	augustl: Hm, but… I guess I could say that if there's an exception, it keeps trying to reload so you get the same error and it's not lost when you refresh.
11:53	augustl	that would rock :D
11:53	augustl	would ofc also be nice if some kind of error could be displayed on the page
11:53	weavejester	augustl: Don't you get a stacktrace?
11:53	augustl	quite often it's just a blank page
11:54	augustl	and then the "previous version" on subsequent requests, until restart
11:54	weavejester	Maybe the stacktrace middleware is below the reload middleware. So if there's an error requiring the file, the stacktrace middleware won't catch it.
11:55	weavejester	Yeah, it is.
11:55	augustl	ah
11:55	weavejester	That's an easy fix at least.
11:55	augustl	so apparently code reloading is not black magic, it's just code like everything else?
11:55	weavejester	augustl: Yes :)
11:57	weavejester	In a nutshell it looks for modified files when a new request comes in, then uses ns-tracker to calculate any dependencies. For instance, if namespace A is changed, but namespace B requires A, then both A and B need to be reloaded.
11:57	weavejester	Then it reloads the namespaces with (require namespace :reload)
11:58	weavejester	The stacktrace middleware is designed to catch exceptions and display a nice stacktrace, but the stacktrace middleware is currently placed below the reload middleware
11:58	weavejester	So if a require fails because there's a syntax error (for example), then there won't be a stacktrace.
11:59	weavejester	I suspect there's also a problem with the namespace tracking in ns-tracker. I'm finding that dependent namespaces aren't being reloaded all the time.
12:00	weavejester	BTW, if anyone has problems with Lein-Ring or whatever, raise an issue on Github.
12:05	llasram	weavejester: Oh, BTW, lein2 now has support for explicit framework-provided dependencies via a :provided profile. I contributed it for Hadoop job JAR building, but my hope is that it'll simplify things like WAR construction
12:10	weavejester	llasram: Thanks for the info
12:29	hughfdjackson	other than the ability to define records that can have protocols defined for them, doesn't defrecord seem a slightly second-rate way to define datastructures?
12:29	hughfdjackson	as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to support named fields on construction
12:30	hughfdjackson	which ends up with ordered params instead
12:30	hughfdjackson	:D i'm thinking that i probably misunderstood this
12:31	technomancy	yeah, don't use records if you can get away with multimethods
12:31	technomancy	multimethods and maps, rather
12:31	llasram	And if you do need them, the work-around is that you have a Clojure factor function rather than directly use the JVM class constructor
12:31	llasram	s,factor,factory,
12:31	hughfdjackson	hrm, drat
12:32	augustl	I'm mostly using records when I need "private" data structures
12:32	augustl	i.e. where initialization only happens one or two places, in the same namespace
12:32	hughfdjackson	is it the 'named type rather than duck type' side of it that irks, or is it the problem with instantiating them without key:val pairs that i mentioned?
12:32	llasram	Yeah. I really really wish deftype let you specify custom constructors. I'd let me ditch most of the remaining cases where I need to squiggle some Java into the codebase
12:33	Sgeo	I'm having problems with Eclipse
12:33	weavejester	I hate SQL so much
12:34	Sgeo	Surely there are things for Clojure that let you avoid using SQL directly?
12:35	weavejester	Sgeo: Yes, for querying and such, but less for generating schema. There's lobos, but it can't do everything.
12:36	llasram	SQL truly is the worst query language, except for all the others
12:36	technomancy	schema generation isn't even really standardized
12:36	weavejester	The main problem is that SQL syntax is such a horrific ball of mud that even the simplest things are difficult or impossible
12:36	nz-	what is missing from lobos?
12:36	weavejester	llasram: Actually… I can't think of a worse query language than SQL...
12:37	weavejester	nz-: It might be that lobos can actually do everything I want
12:37	weavejester	But "to keep it simple" I've gone with files of SQL for migrations
12:37	technomancy	nz-: I get the feeling it's just got too much
12:38	weavejester	The problem is that I forgot you can't execute multiple SQL statements of certain types in the same command
12:38	weavejester	And there doesn't appear to be any library to split them up in Java
12:38	weavejester	Or any language.
12:38	llasram	weavejester: Yeah, fair enough. Really the only contrast I'm familiar with is SQL over full relational data model vs. limited data-access API for much more constrained data model, which doesn't really cover the case of e.g. Datalog
12:39	weavejester	llasram: Admittedly most of the better query languages I can think of don't have as much functionality as SQL.
12:39	tvladeck1	quick question; is there any way to use the "map" function in the new reducers library, if you don't actually need to reduce the result?
12:40	Bronsa	(into [] (r/map ..))
12:41	tvladeck1	cool; and does that achieve the same sort of fork/join goodness that exists in the "par" branch?
12:41	hughfdjackson	isn't the point of the reducers that all common forms of operations over sets can be 'reduced' (gettit) to a reduce with an appropriate fn?
12:41	Bronsa	into calls reduce
12:41	hughfdjackson	(:p this Q is more for me than for you)
12:41	weavejester	technomancy: I'm using the code you wrote for Ragtime ages ago. Did you happen to give any thought to putting more than one SQL statement in a migration file?
12:42	dnolen	hughfdjackson: not sure what you mean.
12:42	hughfdjackson	dnolen: i watched the rich hickey talk while i was kinda nodding off i'm afraid :#
12:42	technomancy	weavejester: not really; best I came up with was splitting on ;; and a big old "don't use ;; inside actual SQL" comment at the top
12:42	tvladeck1	Bronsa: so into calls "reduce", but isn't it necessary to call "par/reduce" to get the advantage?
12:42	augustl	hughfdjackson: that's my impression as well. The actual units of work only describe what needs to be done with one item. Then there's a generic tool to parallelize the actual operation.
12:43	weavejester	technomancy: I was afraid of that :)
12:43	hughfdjackson	but i thought the point of it was that reduce an abstract operation that you can define reduce/map/each in terms of
12:43	technomancy	weavejester: but I also have experimented with doing it from Clojure itself: https://github.com/heroku/buildkits/blob/master/src/buildkits/db/migrate.clj
12:43	technomancy	the main downside there is you don't get syntax highlighting, which is awful and terrible
12:43	Bronsa	tvladeck1: they both call coll-reduce
12:43	tvladeck1	ok got it
12:43	technomancy	but on the other hand data manipulation is a lot nicer
12:44	technomancy	and ordering too
12:44	weavejester	technomancy: True...
12:44	weavejester	technomancy: I'm currently turning Ragtime into a Lein plugin
12:44	technomancy	maybe a helper defn to load a single SQL statement from a file, but it lacks immediacy
12:44	technomancy	really? why's that?
12:44	technomancy	I don't see the point of running anything inside leiningen's process
12:45	weavejester	technomancy: Well, ragtime core wouldn't be changed
12:45	weavejester	But I was adding an extra ragtime.lein so you could run "lein migrate"
12:45	technomancy	you can do that easily already
12:45	technomancy	:aliases {"migrate" ["run" "-m" "ragtime.core"]}
12:45	weavejester	Hm. How?
12:46	weavejester	Hm… problem with that is that you have to write your own migrate code
12:47	technomancy	that doesn't mean that you have to run code inside leiningen's process though
12:47	technomancy	it's all still project-isolated
12:47	weavejester	Oh, I'm using eval-in-project
12:47	weavejester	So it's a very thin wrapper
12:47	technomancy	sure; but you should use eval-in-project via the run task rather than calling it directly
12:48	jweiss	does the extensible reader support spliciing? (eg, #foo/bar 1 -> 1 2 3 ) ?
12:48	weavejester	technomancy: Hm...
12:48	Bronsa	jweiss: dont think so
12:49	weavejester	So if one was making a plugin for Leiningen that primarily execute code in project
12:49	Sgeo	ECLIPSE PLEASE STOP BEING STUPID
12:49	weavejester	Perhaps instead of using eval-in-project, it would inject alieases instead into the project map
12:49	Sgeo	I'm trying to import labrepl
12:49	weavejester	Oh wait, that wouldn't work...
12:49	Sgeo	It complains that it overlaps another project: labrepl
12:49	Sgeo	I think it's downloading the files then noticing that there are files there
12:50	technomancy	weavejester: if you're going to have to add one line to project.clj for a :plugins entry why not add a line for :aliases instead?
12:50	weavejester	technomancy: Because you'd need lines for rollback as well, and some configuration too.
12:50	weavejester	Currently I have two config vars
12:51	Sgeo	Any help?
12:51	technomancy	weavejester: suggest loading config from resources
12:51	weavejester	:ragtime {:migrations ns.for.func.that/generates-migrations, :database "jdbc:h2:mem:test_db"}
12:51	technomancy	also: a single -main function can support migration and rollback
12:52	technomancy	lein run -m ragtime.main [REVISION]
12:52	weavejester	technomancy: That's an idea. lein run -m ragtime.main migrate
12:52	weavejester	technomancy: But I don't like the idea of scattering configs around.
12:53	technomancy	Leiningen has never encouraged using project.clj for runtime config
12:53	weavejester	I know
12:53	weavejester	But...
12:54	technomancy	I suspect any app nontrivial enough to need migrations is already going to have to be reading config from somewhere already
12:54	weavejester	There isn't a better alternative IMO.
12:54	bhenry	looks like someone needs to rewrite ants.clj http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/ants-mimic-internet-082312.html
12:54	weavejester	technomancy: In production, that would be the environment, according to 12factor.net :)
12:55	weavejester	But in development...
12:55	weavejester	Adding configs to Lein profiles is very nice.
12:56	weavejester	So we either need to build a separate profile/config system
12:56	weavejester	Or we could tie into Leiningen's
12:56	weavejester	Although Lein isn't designed to be used in this fashion, I don't see why it couldn't be.
12:57	Frozenlock	`find' is to be used with a map, but is there an equivalent function for a collection? I want to check if I have a given item in a vector.
12:58	nDuff	Frozenlock: some?
12:58	xeqi	(some #{1} [2 3 4 1])
12:58	weavejester	Frozenlock: some?
12:58	weavejester	technomancy: I like the idea of a ragtime.main though
12:58	Frozenlock	Yes! Thanks!
12:59	thorbjornDX	,(some #{1} [2 3 4 1])
12:59	clojurebot	1
13:01	thorbjornDX	,(some #{:a :b} {:a 1 :b 2})
13:01	clojurebot	nil
13:01	thorbjornDX	I guess that's where find is used?
13:02	Frozenlock	I guess I must be too used to elisp's find function.
13:02	thorbjornDX	Frozenlock: I'm used to python's 'in'
13:02	nDuff	...the thing about 'in' is that it can behave in ways with wildly different performance characteristics
13:03	nDuff	whereas Clojure tends to have functions in its standard library with well-defined performance characteristics
13:03	Frozenlock	Eh python.... one day, one day :)
13:03	thorbjornDX	nDuff: yeah, it's hard to know what it's doing behind the scenes
13:03	nDuff	...if you're using some, you _know_ that it's an O(n) operation.
13:04	technomancy	weavejester: yeah, some people are using project.clj for runtime config
13:04	thorbjornDX	1 in [1, 2, 3, 4] is O(n), 1 in {1: 1, 2: 2, 3: 3, 4: 4} is O(1), yea?
13:05	nDuff	thorbjornDX: Exactly.
13:05	technomancy	it's this weird thing where I can't point to any specific reasons it's a bad idea; it's just that I haven't thought it all the way through yet. there are a lot of design decisions that were made without factoring it in at all
13:05	weavejester	technomancy: If it makes you feel better, I'm only using it in development :)
13:06	technomancy	I'm just wary because as soon as I start encouraging it I may push myself into a corner where there'd be some great feature I'd like to implement but can't because it doesn't jive with runtime-level config
13:06	weavejester	technomancy: I tend to use environ and profiles to configure dev stuff, and then in production environment vars or system properties.
13:06	weavejester	technomancy: Noted.
13:07	technomancy	so I guess I should encourage people to experiment with it unofficially for a while and have them report any issues =)
13:07	weavejester	technomancy: But in that case, we'd likely need something to replace Lein. Like… a runtime config/profiles thing.
13:07	technomancy	weavejester: have you seen configleaf?
13:07	weavejester	technomancy: No...
13:07	technomancy	I think it does some of the stuff you're describing
13:08	weavejester	technomancy: Hm, that goes a little further than I was thinking...
13:09	weavejester	technomancy: In my case I'm just using it as a way to populate env vars during development.
13:10	weavejester	And I guess to specify how to run the application.
13:10	weavejester	But Lein does that already with :main, so that seems to be in line with how it works already
13:11	weavejester	Specifying :main or specifying a :handler seem similar.
13:20	technomancy	yeah, in fact IMO lein run with the right aliases covers most of the use cases of lein ring
13:20	technomancy	lein ring server, I mean
13:20	technomancy	if you're using embedded jetty
13:21	weavejester	technomancy: Yes, apart from the configuration
13:21	weavejester	technomancy: lein run + aliases + some kind of config with profiles would cover my use cases at the moment
13:21	technomancy	weavejester: lein-ring says it does stack traces in development; does it just check LEIN_NO_DEV, or what?
13:22	weavejester	technomancy: Yes, by default, but you can be more exact with profiles
13:22	weavejester	technomancy: It seemed like a reasonable default to have.
13:22	technomancy	yeah, unfortunately LEIN_NO_DEV is specific to 1.x
13:23	weavejester	technomancy: You can still set it for 2.0 - it just wouldn't do anything to Lein itself.
13:23	weavejester	technomancy: That said, for Lein 2 you'd probably want to use profiles.
13:23	technomancy	sure, it's just no longer a documented convention
13:23	Sgeo	,(some #{:a :b} (keys {:a 1 :b 2})
13:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:23	technomancy	might help to be clearer about that in the lein-ring readme
13:23	Sgeo	,(some #{:a :b} (keys {:a 1 :b 2}))
13:23	clojurebot	:a
13:23	Sgeo	Oh, I was scrolled up
13:23	weavejester	technomancy: True
13:24	jbarrios	,graph
13:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: graph in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:25	jbarrios	where's the old clojure.contrib.graph package now?
13:27	raek	jbarrios: nowhere. it is unmaintained.
13:27	raek	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
13:27	jbarrios	so I guess dgraph is the best choice atm?
13:28	jbarrios	https://github.com/gcv/dgraph
13:31	jml	is there a recommended pastebin for this channel?
13:31	llasram	jml: https://www.refheap.com/paste
13:31	jml	llasram: thanks.
13:32	jml	pretty.
13:32	hyPiRion	gists are also nice if you wonder whether the code is idiomatic or not
13:32	hyPiRion	'cause of forking possibilities
13:32	sh10151	quick leiningen/clojure-jack-in question for emacs people:
13:33	sh10151	things in my resources/ directory don't appear to be on the classpath in a repl started in clojure-jack-in ... does that sound right? if so, any way to change that?
13:34	jsabeaudry	what kind of "things" ?
13:34	sh10151	xslt file
13:34	sh10151	null pointer returned by clojure.java.io/resource on its name
13:35	technomancy	sh10151: did you create the resources/ dir after starting the JVM?
13:35	sh10151	hmm good question. does clojure-jack-in tear down the whole JVM or not?
13:35	sh10151	i think i have just been repeatedly calling that
13:35	sh10151	saying to get rid of the exsting process
13:36	technomancy	it does restart the JVM, yeah
13:36	sh10151	ok, so no
13:36	sh10151	it's been there
13:36	sh10151	if it's supposed to work, I can look for typos or something
13:36	sh10151	just wanted to make sure it's supposed to work
13:36	sh10151	after not seeing any typos
13:36	raek	yeah, it is supposed to work
13:37	technomancy	it definitely should work
13:37	sh10151	ok, I see making the uberjar puts the file in there
13:37	jsabeaudry	it does work here, just tested it
13:37	jsabeaudry	what path did you give to (resource ) ?
13:37	raek	sh10151: so if you have a file in resources/foo/bar.txt you use (io/resource "foo/bar.txt") to get it?
13:37	sh10151	"/filename.xsl"
13:37	sh10151	it's at top level of resources dir
13:38	sh10151	maybe no leading "/" ?
13:38	jsabeaudry	try without the leading slash?
13:38	raek	I can't remember what happens if you have a leading slash
13:38	jsabeaudry	returns nil if i had a leading slash here
13:38	sh10151	relative to package of the classloader loading the resource I think
13:38	jsabeaudry	add*
13:39	sh10151	I mean, that's what Java does, not sure about java.io.resource
13:39	raek	it uses the java stuff under the hood
13:40	sh10151	that did it, thanks for the help. I should have tried that
13:40	deeplloyd	I have been trying to pick up clojure over the past couple of weekends. i find a decent amout of people's learning experiences w/ clojure plus the normal documentation. What I feel I have not found is a non lisp, non clojure, python/c ish dev's account of coming blind from said technologies to writing a web app in clojure. webnoir is about the best. I have a decent background in programming, and know that it will take time to get
13:40	sh10151	just porting some clojure 1.0.x era code with maven-clojure-plugin to current stuff
13:40	sh10151	and I know it used to work back in the day :)
13:41	dnolen	deeplloyd: have you checked out the O'Reilly book?
13:41	Frozenlock	Perhaps I was doing it the wrong way, but in clojure I could get the value of a symbole simply by doing (eval my-symbol). How can I do it in cljs?
13:41	deeplloyd	dnolen: clojure programming?
13:42	synfinatic	yep that one
13:42	dnolen	deeplloyd: yes
13:42	xeqi	,(resolve '+)
13:42	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
13:42	sh10151	deeplloyd: In my experience the Java/JVM adds quite a bit of complexity too, if you're not already familiar with it. my last question is an example of such complexity. :-/
13:43	Sgeo	Hmm
13:43	cemerick	deeplloyd: http://clojurebook.com if you'd like a precis (or, the closest you'll get to one for a technical book I guess)
13:43	Sgeo	&(resolve '+)
13:43	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
13:43	Sgeo	So, there's a difference between clojurebot's sandbox and lazybot's sandbox
13:43	deeplloyd	synfinatic: dnolen not past the free samples. i dont pirate and would prefer to hold out on spending the bucks until finances are a bette
13:43	technomancy	you'd run into the problem of complexity around the ability to load files transparently either off disk or from a compressed archive no matter the runtime
13:43	deeplloyd	cemerick: precis?
13:43	Sgeo	,(future (+ 1 1))
13:43	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
13:44	cemerick	$google define:precis
13:44	lazybot	[Précis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A9cis
13:44	cemerick	oh well
13:44	deeplloyd	ah
13:44	xeqi	Sgeo: quite abit, clojurebot resets the sandbox every ~15m or so and uses classloaders to prevent some bad stuff; lazybot uses clojail to achieve the same thing
13:44	Sgeo	classloaders?
13:44	sh10151	technomancy: sure, but in other runtimes that's not really something that's valued enough to bake into the system
13:45	Sgeo	I've heard the term before but don't know much about it
13:45	cemerick	A brief abstract of some material (paper, book, etc), usually written by a student to verify comprehension, etc.
13:45	deeplloyd	okay. well then that is the way I suppose. hopefully il be able to make what im looking for in the process
13:45	sh10151	technomancy: here I'm thinking of Python/C per deeplloyd's question :)
13:45	xeqi	Sgeo: think path to search for libraries
13:45	Sgeo	I thought that's classpath
13:45	technomancy	sh10151: so if you don't want the ability to read contents transparently from either an archive or disk why are you using resources?
13:46	xeqi	they both have to load other libs to run, but want to present a repl w/ a limited subset
13:46	xeqi	classloaders are the objects that load classes from the classpath
13:46	deeplloyd	btw cemerick i enjoyed the state survey
13:46	Sgeo	Ah
13:46	technomancy	you can always fall back to loading a file from a specific path on disk
13:46	Sgeo	I'm pretty sure that I won't be mentally designing ClojureNomic
13:46	sh10151	technomancy: oh, I am interested in doing it either way, but only because these things are often deployed as a jar but developed running from files
13:46	cemerick	deeplloyd: Glad for that :-)
13:47	Sgeo	I think newLisp is good for a nomic because of save
13:47	deeplloyd	cemerick: what did you write your blog in?
13:47	cemerick	cemerick.com is on wordpress.com
13:48	cemerick	So is mostlylazy.com
13:48	deeplloyd	do you have a clojure site i can scour?
13:49	sh10151	technomancy: which is something that a person who's primarily billing themselves as Python/C might not know off the bat.
13:49	cemerick	deeplloyd: What, of strictly clojure-related content? http://cemerick.com/category/clojure/ I suppose. :-P
13:50	technomancy	sh10151: sure, so you're trading a bit of up-front complexity for an easier single-file deployment
13:50	weavejester	technomancy: I think I'm going to have a ragtime.main with two arguments. The first to specify a function that returns a list of migrations. The second to specify a database URL.
13:50	weavejester	technomancy: Then I'll add a Lein plugin that will thinly wrap ragtime.main and take the arguments from the project map.
13:50	technomancy	weavejester: yeah, since aliases support partial application you can put the function in project.clj
13:51	weavejester	technomancy: Yes, though I'll also add a plugin to do the same thing, but in a nicer way
13:51	sh10151	technomancy: yep, and that complexity's the kind of thing that can trip people up if they're not prepared. just pointing out to deeplloyd that understanding Java is at least as important to production Clojure as is understanding Lisp.
13:51	weavejester	technomancy: I want to see which I like best.
13:52	technomancy	weavejester: I guess the other thing you get with a plugin is a docstring
13:52	technomancy	I dunno. I don't think it's worth it, but try it and see for yourself =)
13:52	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah. And if we decide to move away from plugins, it's only going to be a thin wrapper.
13:53	deeplloyd	cemerick: IE9 > FF ?!?
14:02	Sgeo	http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/ywbhq/new_java_0day_exploited_in_the_wild/
14:17	cemerick	deeplloyd: ??
14:17	lazybot	cemerick: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
14:20	Sgeo	I feel like I'm about to give up on labrepl
14:20	Sgeo	Or maybe just Eclipse
14:20	cemerick	Sgeo: What's tripping you up? I can help with Eclipse/ccw, but I know nothing of labrepl.
14:21	Sgeo	cemerick, when I try to import the thing via git, at the end of the wizard it says there's already a project there
14:22	Sgeo	(Following the instructions at http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Eclipse+and+Counterclockwise )
14:24	Sgeo	(Specifically, after "Import as general project", it says "C:\Users\Sgeo\DEV\Eclipse\labrepl15 overlaps the location of another project: ;labrepl15'
14:24	cemerick	Sgeo: Worked for me; perhaps you've done this a couple of times, and so the project is already cloned with an eclipse project set up therein?
14:24	Sgeo	Erm, 'laprepl15'
14:25	Sgeo	cemerick, would that effect it even if I keep using different numbers for the directory?
14:25	cemerick	Sgeo: Wouldn't think so, but apparently…
14:25	darklajid	Hi. Probably I'm missing something obvious. I'm just getting started, playing with some simple http tools. I'm using ring, and a request seems to be just a map, right? Where would I find the structure/keys of this beast? I'm looking for the remote ip/port of the underlying socket, specifically
14:26	cemerick	Sgeo: Try: Import > General > Existing projects, and see if there's one already in place ready to go
14:26	cemerick	Is labrepl even maintained anymore? Last change was 10 months ago.
14:26	technomancy	darklajid: just print the request
14:27	Sgeo	No projects are found to import
14:27	technomancy	or return it in the response: (defn app [req] {:headers {"Content-Type" "text/plain"} :status 200 :body (prn req)})
14:27	ohpauleez	cemerick: I'm not sure, but it is a good learning tool
14:27	cemerick	Sgeo: it looks like labrepl is just another leiningen project, so you can just use a clone of it as such
14:28	Sgeo	?
14:28	xeqi	darklajid: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/SPEC for the structure
14:28	cemerick	ohpauleez: dunno, it's starting people off with clojure 1.3.0, and old compojure, ring, etc.
14:28	darklajid	technomancy: Gives me two problems. a) I don't see the required data there (I get a :remote-addr, but that seems to be a string/ip address. No port) and b) Is that the normal way? I did that already, but I was kind of hoping for a missing link to some docs.. :)
14:29	cemerick	Sgeo: Are you specifically looking to use labrepl for something, or are you just wanting to get started with programming in Clojure in general?
14:29	ohpauleez	cemerick: Ah wow, I wasn't aware it was that out of date
14:29	ohpauleez	4clojure would definitely be better
14:29	technomancy	darklajid: you could read the SPEC file for ring, but you should also get comfortable with exploring the API interactively
14:29	Sgeo	cemerick, getting started with Clojure in general, although I have learned a bit already I think
14:29	technomancy	that's the whole request object though
14:30	darklajid	xeqi: technomancy: Cool, the spec looks neat. But .. no port. So ring is not for me, I guess? Back to sockets?
14:30	cemerick	Sgeo: As long as you can get a Clojure+Leiningen project going in ccw with a REPL, you're on your way. :-)
14:30	Sgeo	I seem to have gotten independent leiningen installed finally
14:32	Sgeo	labrepl working now
14:35	xeqi	darklajid: yeah, you'll prolly need something else.. why are you interested in the client's port out of curiousity?
14:37	darklajid	cough Quite frankly I suck at Clojure, but have cemerick's book on my kindle for ages. There's a current ctf from stripe and I'm trying to solve the last level -> The only one that needs code -> "Maybe I can learn some clojure with this particular goal"
14:37	xeqi	ah, I solved that one in python
14:37	darklajid	Problem: I need the addr/port to get even started. So the whole 'explore all these web stuff I've read about in clojure land' dies before I even begin :)
14:37	xeqi	since it was already on l2
14:37	darklajid	xeqi: ;-)
14:38	darklajid	xeqi: Yeah, but .. I'm worse at python than at clojure, even. :) But I don't care about learning python very much, so.. Hmpf.
14:39	xeqi	heh, I didn't want to deal with installing a jdk
14:39	xeqi	*jre
14:40	lucian	xeqi: i didn't even bother getting twisted there
14:40	lucian	even that is too much trouble
14:40	xeqi	yeah, I went singlethreaded python w/ sockets and httplib
14:57	Sgeo	"Starting in 1.3.0, Clojure no longer auto-boxes this type of operation for you."
14:57	Sgeo	Hmm, why?
14:58	S11001001	Sgeo: what?
14:58	Sgeo	S11001001, arithmatic that might overflow
14:58	nDuff	Sgeo: Performance.
14:58	S11001001	MORE SPEED
14:58	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Most developers are aware of the numeric scope they're operating in, so the performance trade-off of auto-boxing and converting up the numeric tower wasn't worth it
14:58	clojurebot	stuartsierra has come to the conclusion that dynamic scope is a bug.
14:59	ohpauleez	Sgeo: you can still get that behavior if you want it
15:08	Frozenlock	If any of you have 1 or 2 min to spare, could you look at this code https://www.refheap.com/paste/4660 (view the result here http://173.246.15.182:8888, try to click Bar Foo and Zon) and tell me if I'm doing crazy things?
15:19	acheng	clojure style question: to take a map and return a new one where any nil values have been replaced with empty strings, i wrote an fn that maps an if-statement, flattens, then apply's assoc on {} and the result. is there a better clojure way to do it?
15:19	amalloy	~flatten
15:19	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
15:20	amalloy	i wonder how rude it would be to have lazybot notice any message with "flatten" in it and respond like that
15:21	acheng	i wouldn't mind if it provided an example as well :-P
15:21	technomancy	acheng: sounds like a classic reduce
15:23	Sgeo	amalloy, I wonder if its uselessness can be noticed by how in Haskell such a function can't be given a type
15:23	xeqi	,(into {} (map (fn [k v] (vector k (if (nil? v) "" v))) {:a nil :b "b" :c "c"}))
15:23	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval27$fn>
15:23	Sgeo	Well, in Haskell, you can't even have lists that have different nesting levels
15:24	Sgeo	But flattenOneLevel :: [[a]] -> [a]
15:24	xeqi	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] (vector k (if (nil? v) "" v))) {:a nil :b "b" :c "c"}))
15:24	clojurebot	{:a "", :c "c", :b "b"}
15:24	Sgeo	Pretty sure there's a real Haskell function
15:24	amalloy	Sgeo: it's concat
15:24	Sgeo	amalloy, indeed. I hoogled it >.>
15:24	amalloy	xeqi: (map (fn ...)) makes me so sad; just use (for ...)
15:24	xeqi	haha, habits
15:26	xeqi	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a nil :b "b" :c "c"}] (vector k (if (nil? v) "" v))))
15:26	clojurebot	{:a "", :c "c", :b "b"}
15:26	acheng	thanks folks!
15:26	xeqi	will remember for next time
15:27	jkkramer	,(= (vector :a 1) [:a 1])
15:27	clojurebot	true
15:27	xeqi	I've stopped using data literal syntax with variables, even though I know its safe here
15:27	acheng	oh. so in this case, which is preferable.. reduce or into ... or are these approaches basically equally good?
15:28	Chousuke	into is usually better if you're building a data structure.
15:29	jkkramer	into is shorter here. vs e.g. (reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (assoc m k (if (nil? v) "" v))) {} m). but either approach is fine
15:29	Sgeo	I really want to be able to browse the source of an item on clojars
15:30	llasram	IMHO `into` more directly expresses intent (vs just being shorter), and has the side effect of being more efficient due to internally using transients
15:31	alcy	cemerick: ping
15:31	cemerick	alcy: pong
15:31	mk	acheng: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/map.clj#L46 ?
15:31	alcy	cemerick: hi, had a question about the book you authored, is this one of the right mediums to ask ? :)
15:31	cemerick	sure, fire away
15:32	acheng	mk: ooh
15:33	alcy	cemerick: thanks, so i've made till destructuring, which started to pose some semantic confusion (coming from perl), but I have _just_ been able to understand the point minus the technical terms ... is this expected and things gonna get better ?
15:33	alcy	cemerick: for eg., the book doesnt tell me about seqs/vectors etc. formally, but I can kinda make out
15:33	alcy	cemerick: well by book, right now, I mean the first initial few topics
15:34	mk	acheng: I ended up asking the same question on the 14th, I think that was the best answer (provided by gtrak). You can look at what was said at http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-08-14.html , by ctrl-f "of map entries"
15:34	cemerick	alcy: seqs and vectors and all the rest are covered in depth later on; if you're still in chapter 1, the (significant) differences between seqs and vectors can be glossed over.
15:35	mk	acheng: I think I was worried about efficiency
15:36	alcy	cemerick: ah thanks, I suppose it will be two passes of the book & terminology when I start making real programs ;)
15:36	amalloy	Sgeo: petition library authors to include a :url entry in their project.clj
15:36	cemerick	alcy: Make sure you've got a working REPL going so you can experiment along the way. As for whether it's going to "get better"…well, part I of the book is purposefully intensive. Of course, feel free to jump around in order to get a better feel for details (e.g. certainly read about data structures straight off if that interests you).
15:36	alcy	cemerick: ah yes, definitely, I have been doing that
15:36	Sgeo	Why can't clojars just open the jar itself?
15:37	cemerick	alcy: tryclj.com is a good default, if you don't want to mess around with setting up tools, etc.
15:37	alcy	cemerick: oh trust me I have done that tutorial twice, in fact, I have been waiting for someone to complete it ;)
15:37	amalloy	why can't you? it's a lot easier to do on a local filesystem than it is for clojars to reinvent githubj
15:37	alcy	cemerick: unless you just meant to get the repl
15:37	alcy	:)
15:37	xeqi	and not every jar includes source
15:37	cemerick	alcy: well, I meant that it's a reasonable REPL in general.
15:38	alcy	cemerick: yep
15:38	Sgeo	Unless you want to mess with futures or agents
15:38	alcy	cemerick: do you think, a preliminary knowledge of some particular concepts help ? prerequisites of sort ?
15:38	cemerick	alcy: Well, carry on, and feel free to ask questions here; lots of people that know their stuff. :-)
15:39	alcy	cemerick: cool, thanks
15:39	cemerick	alcy: We refer to various resources along the way in the text, but I'd hope that nothing would be a prerequisite.
15:39	mk	if I have a map that's a few million entries long, and I want to do map-vals, which I expect to only change 3 values, how might I implement that in a way that doesn't create a brand new and huge map?
15:40	alcy	cemerick: hmm, alright. wonder if its just me who finds the info to be a little dense
15:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: If your only changing 3 values, then it's possible that most of the rest of the data structure will be shared.
15:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: Clojure uses persistent data structures to help ameliorate problems like the one you just outlined.
15:43	wkelly	alcy: coming from a similar background, I think there's a pretty steep initial learning curve for clojure no matter which book you choose, but there really aren't too many fundamental concepts, so it does not stay too steep for too long
15:44	ordnungswidrig	is there a path for midje-mode to support nrepl?
15:44	ordnungswidrig	s/path/patch/
15:44	alcy	wkelly: ah, thanks for the validation :)
15:44	mk	SegFaultAX\|work2: the map-vals implementation I posted above doesn't seem to share that much structure
15:45	alcy	cemerick: thanks for your help too ! kinda like zen & the art of motorcycle maintenance where Pirsig leaves the difficult/dense part for a later chapter ;)
15:45	SegFaultAX\|work2	wkelly: Unless you're new to functional and declarative programming entirely. That might increase the learning complexity.
15:45	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: Oh? Is it possible you're using the wrong data structure or the wrong algorithm?
15:45	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: For example. would a zipper be more suitable to your needs?
15:47	scriptor	mk: it doesn't share any structure because theoretically every element could be different
15:47	scriptor	mk: so if you have a a map of entirely different values then of course you won't share any structure, but there's nothing to share
15:47	SegFaultAX\|work2	I see. I don't really know of a good way to side-step that.
15:48	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: How big is the map in question?
15:50	naeg	I /quit
15:51	mk	SegFaultAX: I'm imagining a very large map, for example a map of word pair frequencies, or something
15:52	amalloy	mk: map-vals isn't doing any structural sharing, because each key has a new value that it can't predict
15:52	scriptor	mk: you don't really need map-vals if you need to update frequencies or anything like that
15:52	amalloy	personally i don't advocate the use of any of the map-* or filter-* functions in useful.map
15:53	mk	scriptor: what do you suggest?
15:53	scriptor	mk: nothing wrong with assoc
15:54	SegFaultAX\|work2	mk: Why would you only need to update 3 keys in a frequency map?
15:54	mk	my general idea is that I might have a large map where I only need to update a few keys. Assoc would do that?
15:54	amalloy	it's exactly what assoc is for
15:55	dnolen	what is decaf? https://gist.github.com/3491702
15:55	TimMc	SegFaultAX\|work2: Perhaps when new data comes in?
15:55	ninjudd	dnolen: https://github.com/flatland/decaf
15:56	mk	SegFaultAX\|work2: might be adding a 4-word sentence to a large frequency list
15:56	SegFaultAX\|work2	Why does that require map-vals?
15:56	mk	amalloy: great - is there an impl of map-vals that's better suited for that?
15:57	amalloy	no, because map-vals is not a tool for doing what you said you need to do
15:57	amalloy	map-vals iterates the whole map; you have a small number of known keys
15:57	dnolen	ninjudd: ah interesting approach - so it just always a keeps a second JVM ready to go.
15:58	tomoj	ninjudd: sounds like a great idea. but how to cleanup the reserve jvms? manually kill?
15:58	mk	SegFaultAX\|work2: not sure, it might not. I don't really remember what case I had in mind earlier. I guess the idea was that you would map-vals over the map, and there's a good chance that only a few would be updated. Like map-vals-when?
15:59	tos9	a/11
16:01	amalloy	tomoj: i think he already has code to kill them after an hour or whatever length of time if they just sit idle. if he doesn't yet, he will soon
16:02	ninjudd	tomoj amalloy: haven't written that code yet but i did make an issue https://github.com/flatland/decaf/issues/2
16:02	tomoj	oh, cool
16:11	pbostrom_	does anyone know of a good "intro to Clojure" slide deck? I found a couple that look pretty good: http://stuartsierra.com/download/2011-09-18-strangeloop-clojure-intro.pdf and http://www.slideshare.net/theceo/introduction-to-clojure-9639369
16:20	alcy	pbostrom_: don't know about slide decks, probably just search on speakerdeck but http://blip.tv/clojure is also full of resources
16:20	alcy	pbostrom_: and infoq as well
16:24	Frozenlock	If any of you have 1 or 2 min to spare, could you look at this code https://www.refheap.com/paste/4660 (view the result here http://173.246.15.182:8888, try to click Bar Foo and Zon) and tell me if I'm doing crazy things? I wouldn't want to start my cljs adventure on a bad foot :-)
16:26	naeg	Frozenlock: did you ask on stack overflow for code review already?
16:27	nDuff	Isn't there a separate StackExchange site for review?
16:27	nDuff	StackOverflow is more for specific questions
16:27	naeg	nDuff: dunno, but there is: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/code-review
16:27	nDuff	..."please review this code" questions tend to get closed quickly
16:27	Frozenlock	No, I've never used it and it didn't think it was a question worth of it...
16:27	amalloy	http://codereview.stackexchange.com
16:27	nDuff	^^ that.
16:28	naeg	oh, but still in beta. You either use that or stack overflow's code-review tag
16:28	naeg	why not try it Frozenlock? can't hurt I guess
16:29	naeg	(sry, new to Clojure too, can't help that much)
16:30	Frozenlock	naeg: Sure I'll give it a try
16:30	naeg	Frozenlock: but use that codereview stackexchange
16:31	naeg	this questions suggest so: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12098078/how-readable-is-this-line-of-code
16:33	Frozenlock	Oh wow... "To create code blocks or other preformatted text, indent by four spaces:" I wasn't on Emacs, I would cry.
16:34	Raynes	Frozenlock: copy them all and then ctrl+k
16:34	nDuff	Frozenlock: There's a javascript button to do that for you.
16:34	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...so you can select your code in the browser's editor, click the {} symbol, and it does the indent.
16:36	Frozenlock	Raynes: That's for inline, no?
16:36	Raynes	I don't think so, no.
16:36	Frozenlock	nDuff: Indeed... I don't know why I stopped looking once I found the `code' button.
16:36	Raynes	There is a command that does it regardless, but what nDuff just said would work too.
16:37	emezeske	Frozenlock: I am not sure about this, but I kind of seem to think that things like (js/jQuery.plot) only work by accident, and that you should use (.plot js/jQuery) instead
16:37	emezeske	Frozenlock: I could be wrong though.
16:37	amalloy	hah, i never even noticed SO had wysiwyg-style editor buttons. i just have a keybinding in emacs for "copy all this, and indent it by four spaces"
16:39	Frozenlock	emezeske: I have found js/jQuery to be working sporadically. I still don't know why :(
16:39	casion	technomancy: rectangle commands are out there for cokeror
16:39	emezeske	Frozenlock: What do you mean by sporadic?
16:39	casion	there was someone on the IRC channel who implemented them
16:39	casion	conkeror*
16:40	technomancy	casion: as a third-party lib?
16:40	casion	technomancy: yes
16:41	technomancy	huh; cool
16:41	Frozenlock	emezeske: Sometimes it works, other it doesn't.
16:41	technomancy	I wonder if it'd be good enough to merge into mainline
16:42	emezeske	Frozenlock: Can you be more specific? Like, what happens when it doesn't work? An exception? A compile warning? Does it ever fail without recompiling, and just refreshing the browser?
16:45	bosie	technomancy: are you responsible for clojure at heroku?
16:46	technomancy	bosie: yeah, what's up?
16:46	bosie	technomancy: no, nothing. was just wondering if you do ruby or clojure there
16:46	technomancy	I do a bit of ruby here and there
16:47	bosie	why the heck are you fluent in indonesian/malaysian?
16:48	technomancy	I grew up in Indonesia
16:48	technomancy	also, it's literally the easiest non-artificial language in the world
16:48	bosie	cool
16:48	Frozenlock	emezeske: Sure, sorry about that. So if it works for a function, it will always work, but not all function are ok with this. For example, If I want to use the .datepicker from jQuery, I need to call it directly: (.datepicker ($ :#datepicker)). Calling it as I did with the .plot, (js/jQuery.datepicker ($ :#datepicker)) will result in this: #<TypeError: Property 'datepicker' of object function (a,b){return new p.fn.init(a,b,c)} is
16:48	Frozenlock	function>
16:48	bosie	easy to say if you grew up there ;)
16:49	emezeske	Frozenlock: I think sporadic is not the right word for that. Inconsistent, maybe?
16:49	emezeske	Frozenlock: Anyway, I'm pretty sure js/Something.anything is wrong
16:49	emezeske	Frozenlock: If you want to call something on the jQuery object iself, (.member js/jQuery)
16:49	emezeske	Frozenlock: If you want to call something on a jquery container: (.member ($ thing))
16:50	Sgeo	http://nathanaeljones.com/45/clojure-cross-platform-fast-concurrent-concise/
16:50	Frozenlock	Definition of SPORADIC
16:50	Frozenlock	: occurring occasionally, singly, or in irregular or random instances (from merriam-webster)
16:50	Sgeo	What's this about edit-and-continue?
16:50	Frozenlock	I like my words :)
16:50	emezeske	Frozenlock: "irregular"
16:50	emezeske	Frozenlock: I promise that it works regularly, just not how you expect
16:50	emezeske	Frozenlock: Sporadic would be if js/jQuery worked when you ran the code once, but not the next time you ran the same code
16:52	emezeske	Frozenlock: Anyway, you want to avoid js/Stuff as much as possible. Wrap js/jQuery in a function, and use that, and never use js/Whatever anywhere else in your code, and you'll be fine
16:53	Frozenlock	Ok, for a particular instance, it's consistent (js/jQuery.plot), but for the usage of js/jQuery it's irregular.
16:53	Frozenlock	But what's wrong with it?
16:54	Frozenlock	Shouldn't js/jQuery be able to call ev-e-ry thing?
16:55	emezeske	Well, the fact that it does unexpected things seems like a great reason not to use it
16:55	emezeske	And again, I really don't think js/Thing.member is supposed to work, I think that's an accident
16:55	emezeske	Anyway, feel free to not listen to me, I'm just throwing out some suggestions
16:56	SegFaultAX\|work2	emezeske: Why should you wrap js/* in a function?
16:56	SegFaultAX\|work2	emezeske: (I have never used cljs)
16:57	Frozenlock	Hey, I really appreciate, I just didn't want to rely on rule of thumbs.
16:57	Frozenlock	Please, feel free to suggest anytime :)
16:58	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work2: I just suggest it to keep the code as clojure-y as possible
16:58	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work2: js/ is a bit of an escape hatch to JS, and you can do silly things with it -- it's nice to just hide it away and do everything clojure-y
17:00	Sgeo	,(.toUpper "hm")
17:00	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: toUpper for class java.lang.String>
17:00	hyPiRion	,(.toUpperCase "hm")
17:00	clojurebot	"HM"
17:00	Sgeo	,(map .toUpperCase '("hm" "argh"))
17:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: .toUpperCase in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:00	Sgeo	,(map #(.toUpperCase %) '("hm" "argh"))
17:00	clojurebot	("HM" "ARGH")
17:01	hyPiRion	,(map (memfn toUpperCase) ["hm" "argh"])
17:01	clojurebot	("HM" "ARGH")
17:01	hyPiRion	,(doc memfn)
17:01	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn."
17:01	brehaut	,(map (memfn toUpperCase) ["hm" "argh"])
17:01	clojurebot	("HM" "ARGH")
17:02	Sgeo	is there an equivalent for static methods?
17:16	tanzoniteblack	Sgeo: generally I just use the #() for statics
17:16	tanzoniteblack	,(map #(String/valueOf %) [2 3])
17:16	clojurebot	("2" "3")
17:17	Sgeo	I'm going to end up learning the Java standard library, aren't I? :/
17:17	tanzoniteblack	what static method do you need?
17:17	SegFaultAX\|work2	Is there a function to get every nth element of a seq given some step. Like the first, third, fifth, seventh, etc.
17:18	SegFaultAX\|work2	Ah, take nth.
17:18	magopian	guys, i'm pondering at problem 113 on 4clojure at the moment (http://www.4clojure.com/problem/113), but can't find how to tackle it
17:19	Sgeo	tanzoniteblack, I mean, just in general for using Clojure
17:19	magopian	may i have a hint on what to use? I'm just a noob in clojure, so i'm believing i'm missing some kind of language construct/feature that would allow some data to be represented differently if it's "str" or "seq"
17:20	magopian	for example, using python, i would play with __str__ and __iter__
17:20	brehaut	magnars: i havent solved that one, but it looks like reify might be a good play to start
17:20	tanzoniteblack	,(let [my-list '("one" "two" "three" "four")]
17:20	tanzoniteblack	(map #(nth my-list %) (range 0 4 2)))
17:20	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:20	tanzoniteblack	whoops, messed that up
17:20	tanzoniteblack	but nth will get the nth item from a set
17:20	tanzoniteblack	and you can use that as a function
17:20	SegFaultAX\|work2	tanzoniteblack: If that's for me, take-nth is a thing.
17:20	magopian	brehaut: i think that was for me and not magnars ;) thanks for the tip, i'm going to find some documentation on reify
17:21	brehaut	magopian: yes. sorry
17:21	magopian	brehaut: no problem, thanks for the tip ;)
17:21	tanzoniteblack	Sgeo: the nth thing was for you
17:21	tanzoniteblack	,(let [my-list '("one" "two" "three" "four")] (map #(nth my-list %) (range 0 4 2)))
17:21	clojurebot	("one" "three")
17:21	Sgeo	tanzoniteblack, wait, what? why am I being told about nth?
17:21	brehaut	magopian: you now about the doc command?
17:22	brehaut	s/command/function/
17:22	tanzoniteblack	no wait...I'm confusing myself now, that was for SegFaultAX\|work2
17:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	tanzoniteblack: And see my reply.
17:22	magopian	brehaut: i think so (doc reify)
17:22	magopian	however, it doesn't seem to work in the LightTable playground ;)
17:23	magopian	&(doc reify)
17:23	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& opts+specs]); reify is a macro with the following structure: (reify options* specs*) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of the protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodNa... https://www.refheap.com/paste/4663
17:23	tanzoniteblack	SegFaultAX\|work2: cools, I hadn't seen take-nth before, thanks
17:24	mpenet	Sgeo: not necessarly, there are lua, c, js, gambit scheme, clr, python and probalbly more implementations out there
17:27	mpenet	At this point it depends on what you intend to do. Playing with the language, or getting things done, if that is the later the JVM or clojurescript is your best bet for now.
17:27	magopian	brehaut: wow, the doc of reify speaks chinese to me ;)
17:27	brehaut	haha
17:27	brehaut	sorry
17:28	ordnungswidrig	you'll understand the doc when you understand reify
17:28	magopian	brehaut: however, the doc seems to more or less answer the exact problem stated in 4clojure ;)
17:29	magopian	(with str and seq ;)
17:29	magopian	i should be able to work something out
17:29	magopian	ordnungswidrig: that's scary :)
17:29	magopian	ordnungswidrig: and will i understand reify when i understand the doc? ^^
17:29	hyPiRion	Wow, the reify-doc is horrible.
17:30	magopian	hyPiRion: dunno, i can hardly understand half of it
17:30	magopian	but i keep re-reading it, i'll make some sense out of it ;)
17:30	hyPiRion	magopian: Look at examples, they give you a better understanding.
17:31	ordnungswidrig	the best part: (reify options* specs*) … Currently there are no options.
17:31	magopian	hyPiRion: yup, thanks for the tip
17:31	ordnungswidrig	this is what I call a real optional parameter
17:31	ordnungswidrig	Sgeo: no
17:36	magopian	mmm i'm going to get some sleep now, i'm sure it'll make more sense tomorrow ;)
17:36	SegFaultAX\|work2	For http://www.4clojure.com/problem/50, is this cheating? (comp vals (partial group-by type))
17:36	magopian	SegFaultAX\|work2: why would it be cheating?
17:36	amalloy	any solution that works isn't cheating. you heard it here first, folks
17:37	magopian	amalloy: thanks for 4clojure ;)
17:37	magopian	it's what drives me to learn more clojure, day after day ;)
17:37	magopian	(and keeps my brain awake)
17:37	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: It just seems slightly abusive. :)
17:37	magopian	well, it's going to sleep now, but you get my point ;)
17:37	magopian	good night folkds
17:38	Raynes	amalloy: I saw something implement the nth problem with '.get'
17:38	Raynes	I lol'd
17:38	amalloy	nice
17:49	hiredman	ob
17:58	SegFaultAX\|work2	To do #53 on 4clojure, I've written the following: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4665 Does this seem generally useful? Is there a better way?
18:00	Frozenlock	Am I a bad person for never using defn- ?
18:01	dnolen	Frozenlock: no
18:01	ordnungswidrig	Frozenlock: No, unless you're using (defn ^:private) :-)
18:01	Raynes	Implying that (defn ^:private ..) is bad?
18:02	SegFaultAX\|work2	Is it functionally different from (defn- ...)?
18:02	Raynes	No.
18:02	xeqi	I don't like to make functions private, but when I do I use (defn ^:private ..)
18:02	Raynes	And it is much more consistent with the rest of Clojure.
18:02	SegFaultAX\|work2	Ah.
18:02	Raynes	defn- is more of an artifact of the past than anything.
18:02	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: If you generalize it, it would proably be a bit more... general
18:02	Raynes	Which is why there isn't any def-, for example.
18:03	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: is core.logic capable of generating solutions that are lists in a "minimal" way? it's finite domain.
18:03	SegFaultAX\|work2	Is there something wrong with private functions? It seems like keeping your namespace API uncluttered with internal functions is a good thing.
18:03	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: what do you mean?
18:03	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: so, give a list of chess queen positions such that every field on the board is attacked.
18:04	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: there are a lot of solutions, some are smaller than others
18:04	nDuff	SegFaultAX: The place where they annoy me are cases where I want to replace some parts of functionality in 3rd-party code while retaining those which overlap, but where the overlap is all in functions marked private.
18:05	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: i'm not interested in the theoretical minimum, though. building the constrainst, such that the "first" solution is a small one would do.
18:05	nDuff	SegFaultAX: ...and with respect to namespace cleanliness, there's an argument to be made that global refers are Doing It Wrong anyhow.
18:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	nDuff: Well if it's private that probably means "internal implementation detail," right? Do wouldn't monkey patching that be pretty bad anyway?
18:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	So wouldn't*
18:06	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: are you specifically interested in an nqueens solution? Martin Trojer did one.
18:07	Frozenlock	Thanks guys, I wasn't expecting so much details :)
18:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	dnolen: That's a pretty compact solution, too.
18:08	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: but perhaps I understand what you are asking ... and I believe the answer is yes. the new core.logic alphas support constraint logic programming over finite domains.
18:08	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: no, it was only an example. I have a list of devices which have each some properties which values are in a finite domain. I want to generate a set of devices such that 1) every possible value of a single property is covered. 2) every pairwise combination of two properties values are coverred.
18:09	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: like device1: big, yellow, expensive device2: big, green, cheap, device3: big, yellow, cheep.
18:09	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: (d1,d2) would cover every property value.
18:10	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: but for pairwise it would miss a device that is "yellow+cheap"
18:14	hyPiRion	ordnungswidrig: So put differently, given a set of vectors on the form [x_1 x_2 ... x_n], find the minimal solution where every pair [x_a x_b], 1 <= a, b <= n, is contained within the solution.
18:15	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: you could encode those values as integers - I've been thinking about some sugar to make it less tedious.
18:15	ordnungswidrig	hyPiRion: yes, I think this is the formalized variant
18:15	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: integers would be ok
18:15	ordnungswidrig	I can map them back later
18:15	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: will have to wait for some refactoring of the constraint solver.
18:15	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: then yes that works just fine.
18:16	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: that's precisely what I did here, http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/logic/bench.clj#L398
18:17	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: how would I ensure that a "minimal" solution will be found?
18:19	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: hmm ... I believe there are some ad-hoc tricks for that in CLP(FD) literature. More explicit support may be possible a la Mozart/OZ, but I've got nothing planned in the near future.
18:19	ordnungswidrig	ok
18:19	ordnungswidrig	I'll dig the literature then
18:20	hyPiRion	ordnungswidrig: It's an interesting problem though, thanks for sharing.
18:20	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: google for "Finite Domain Constraint Programming in Oz. A Tutorial.". Most of my understanding of CLP(FD) and far beyond is from their. Haven't time to dig into - there are some things that need fixing first to tackle even the simplest CLP(FD) problems they talk about.
18:21	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: ok, thanks!
18:21	ordnungswidrig	I'll go to bed now. Hammock time, or like that.
18:22	dnolen	ordnungswidrig: I would like a lot of that text to applicable to Clojure. Though the search strategy may be challenging since that's not really covered in the original cKanren design.
18:22	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: I'd love it!
18:22	ordnungswidrig	bye!
18:23	XPherior	with-redefs.. It redefines something within the scope of it's calling that macro. But it doesn't seem to redefine it in other namespaces?
18:24	XPherior	IE, I redefine the function b to be something else. Within the with-redefs, function a calls b. b appears to be the original b, not the one I substituted in.
18:27	XPherior	I guess what I'm asking for is a "global function redefinition"
18:30	technomancy	XPherior: with-redefs works in terms of vars. if someone has a copy of the original version in a local or some such, there's no way to change it.
18:31	technomancy	other than to pass around vars instead
18:31	XPherior	technomancy: It's merely calling the other function via namespace. No functions with side effects.
18:31	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: Was that about my code post?
18:31	XPherior	How would one "hold onto" a function in Clojure?
18:31	XPherior	Well, I guess with def. But I don't see a case where I used that.
18:38	technomancy	the classic example is with (run-jetty app {:port 8080})
18:38	Sgeo	It occurs to me that if I keep getting bothered when I see individuals who are crucial to an ecosystem in an IRC channel, I will always be bothered
18:39	technomancy	with-redefs and recompilation won't be visible to jetty since you're passing the value of app; you have to pass in #'app
18:39	XPherior	technomancy: Go on
18:39	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: oh, second.
18:39	XPherior	Hm..
18:39	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: I'm interested in your thoughts on how I could make it better.
18:39	XPherior	Okay, I think that puts me on the right track, technomancy
18:40	XPherior	I'll be back. Gonna switch out to Linux so I can hack on the problem more.
18:40	XPherior	Thanks again!
18:40	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: So instead of taking 2 elements, namely prev and current, you could take more than 2
18:41	hyPiRion	Like n-2 n-1 and n.
18:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: I don't know how to make that very general. The usage I was looking at was something like (take-seq #(= (inc %1) %2) [1 2 3 4])
18:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: It would return [1 2 3 4]. But if that seq was, say, [1 2 3 5 6 7] it would only return [1 2 3]
18:42	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: What would that one return?
18:42	hyPiRion	oh, okay.
18:43	hyPiRion	hmm, second
18:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: So where take-while returns values as long as the predicate is true, take-seq does the same thing but it allows you to work with the current and last value to recognize a sequence.
18:55	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4667
19:01	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: Awesome!
19:03	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: It's not perfect though - it cannot take in an infinite seq and return a new infinite seq
19:04	hyPiRion	Though if it helps you in any way, then I'm glad to be of help :)
19:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: I wanted mine to work on infinite seqs which is why it's so verbose. But your solution is a lot cleaner and more general than mine.
19:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	partition* are awesome.
19:06	wmealing_1	SegFaultAX\|work2: did you find an built-in function to split a list on a condition (dichotomize-by ?
19:06	hyPiRion	yeah, partition and partition-all are more powerful than I thought they would be
19:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	wmealing_1: Not a built-in, no.
19:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	wmealing_1: (juxt remove filter) was good enough for my purposes.
19:07	hyPiRion	split-with?
19:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: Nope.
19:08	wmealing_1	had me scratching my head for a bit.
19:08	hyPiRion	Hum, okay
19:08	hyPiRion	Oh, yeah, I see.
19:08	wmealing_1	i ended up writing my own, but i wasn't happy.
19:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	wmealing_1: The only downside is running through the list twice instead of separating it in one pass.
19:09	hyPiRion	,(vals (group-by odd? (range 10)))
19:09	clojurebot	([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9])
19:09	hyPiRion	The order is scary though
19:09	hyPiRion	,(vals (group-by even? (range 10)))
19:09	clojurebot	([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9])
19:09	hyPiRion	So scratch that.
19:10	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: Yea. This was for a quicksort so I wanted to have all the numbers >= pivot separated from the rest.
19:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	hyPiRion: My initial solution started with a group-by. The juxt one was better, minus the aforementioned speed penalty.
19:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	(Better in terms of code size.)
19:12	amalloy	SegFaultAX\|work2: shouldn't take-seq just use partition?
19:13	hyPiRion	,(separate odd? (range 10))
19:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: separate in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:13	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: How do you mean? I wanted it to be able to recognize arbitrary sequences, not just increasing or decreasing.
19:13	XPherior	Hey technomancy. The function I'm trying to redefine in used by a route in Compojure's defroutes macro. It must be hanging onto the value of the function that I told it to call when it hits the respective route, huh?
19:14	amalloy	&((fn take-seq [pred coll] (map second (filter (partial apply pred) (partition 2 1 coll)))) #(= %2 (inc %1)) [1 2 3 5 6 9])
19:14	lazybot	⇒ (2 3 6)
19:15	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: That's not correct.
19:15	technomancy	XPherior: yeah, just using a var instead should do the trick
19:15	amalloy	it matches your docstring
19:15	XPherior	technomancy: Hm? Instead what?
19:16	technomancy	instead of the value of the var
19:16	amalloy	if you want to include the 1 at the front, then you can do the three-arg vs two-arg thing, but i was just demonstrating using partition instead of lazy-seq
19:16	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Then my docstring sucks. For context I was working on 4clojure #53
19:16	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Longest subseq of increasing integers.
19:16	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Yours does not return the correct answer.
19:17	XPherior	technomancy: Yeah, that seeems correct. I don't see how to be able to override it for testing though. Is it just not possible? Sorry, my understanding is a little fuzzy here.
19:18	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Did you catch hyPiRion's solution? https://www.refheap.com/paste/4667
19:18	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: I'm still looking for a good way to implement the general take-seq/take-while-partition "take the longest contiguous sequence given some predicate" function.
19:19	XPherior	Oh technomancy, sorry I read that wrong. Makes more sense now.
19:26	amalloy	SegFaultAX\|work2: useful.seq/glue has a pretty thorough implementation of that sort of "split a sequence up into N chunks" idea, although it's so flexible it's a bit unwieldy to use in most real-life cases. https://gist.github.com/3493313 has an example usage, and docstring is at https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L193
19:33	hyPiRion	Ah, SegFaultAX\|work2, https://www.refheap.com/paste/4669 works on infinite lists too.
19:35	XPherior	Why would something like with-redefs [#'ns/func substitute-fun] throw lojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
19:35	XPherior	Werd
19:36	amalloy	&(doc with-redefs)
19:36	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! with-redefs is bad!
19:36	amalloy	,(doc with-redefs)
19:36	hyPiRion	haha
19:36	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol temp-value-expr Temporarily redefines Vars while executing the body. The temp-value-exprs will be evaluated and each resulting value will replace in parallel the root value of its Var. After the body is executed, the root values of all the Vars will be set back to their old values. These temporary changes will be visible in all threads. Useful for mockin...
19:36	amalloy	XPherior: read the docstring
19:37	XPherior	amalloy: I have many times. =/
19:37	XPherior	#' returns a var, as far as I understand. Passing that in as the first element in the vector should be fine
19:37	amalloy	what do you suppose var-symbol means? i would bet money that it means "this should be a symbol"
19:38	XPherior	I suppose that makes a bit more sense. But, when I do that, I just get that 'cons cannot be cast to symbol'
19:38	XPherior	I mean, when it says it rebinds vars, it seems like it wants a var to target.
19:39	Apage43	it does (var) aka #' internally.
19:40	Apage43	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/d0c380d9809fd242bec688c7134e900f0bbedcac/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6589
19:40	XPherior	I can't just pass in the function value, because as technomancy were talking about earlier.. Another function already has the value of that function. I'd need to redefine the function at the var level
19:41	Apage43	with-redefs is a macro, so you're passing it symbols, not values
19:46	Frozenlock	I've stumbled uppon this nice little function in a C2 demo code: (defn evt->key [e] (get {13 :enter} (.-keyCode e))) Is it the idiomatic way to get a keypress?
19:47	Frozenlock
19:47	dnolen	Frozenlock: yes
19:48	Frozenlock	dnolen: thank you
20:01	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Awesome, thanks for the tip. I hadn't heard of useful until now.
21:18	cjfrisz	Everybody must be hard at work here
21:20	stankley	cjfrisz: Very much so...
21:22	cjfrisz	Seeing as though I broke my parser last night and it's still mad at me, I should probably be harder at work
21:27	Frozenlock	Ah crap, I think I opened a can of worms.
21:28	Frozenlock	-=keyCodes=-
21:28	uvtc	Hey, where did all these worms come from? ... Frozenlock!
21:31	cjfrisz	Man...sometimes I think Clojure has too few parentheses
21:31	shaungilchrist	ahaha
21:32	cjfrisz	Take "cond" for instance
21:32	Frozenlock	cjfrisz: Yeah, I don't feel the rush of adrenaline caused by closing 20 parentheses! ))))))))))))))))0
21:33	cjfrisz	Scheme has an extra set of brackets around each clause
21:33	cjfrisz	This makes indent functions in text editors much happier if you need to make a line break after the test
21:33	shaungilchrist	I like to accelerate as I type them so it's literally a rush
21:49	Frozenlock	Before I waste a night trying to make some hotkeys functions for cljs, does anybody know if there's already a library for this? (in cljs)
21:59	Raynes	Frozenlock: Why does it have to be in cljs?
22:03	Frozenlock	It could also be in google closure (I haven't found one). If I understand correctly, google closure or cljs are what is required to be able to use the compiler efficiently.
22:31	Spaceghostc2c	Please sir, may I have some clojure?
22:34	cjfrisz	Spaceghostc2c: ...yes?
22:34	Spaceghostc2c	cjfrisz: I think my british accent was off.
22:34	cjfrisz	Oh!
22:34	cjfrisz	Spaceghostc2c: More?
22:34	cjfrisz	Spaceghostc2c: You want MORE??
22:34	lazybot	cjfrisz: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
22:36	Spaceghostc2c	Well done gents! We'll be here all week.
23:06	emezeske	Frozenlock: You can use any javascript library you want from cljs, as long as you provide an :externs file
23:07	emezeske	Frozenlock: (The :exterms file lets you compile with :advanced optimizations)
23:10	Frozenlock	emezeske: But the extern files won't be included in the generated js?
23:10	Frozenlock	(that might not be a big deal)
23:11	emezeske	Frozenlock: This probably will answer your question: http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
23:11	Frozenlock	Thanks!
23:45	TimMc	Frozenlock: Man, who even types closing parens?
23:45	TimMc	That's so... without paredit. :-P
23:46	cjfrisz	So...I used to use paredit
23:46	tomoj	that's surprising
23:46	cjfrisz	And I had a couple of very prolific Schemers convince me that it can be detrimental to hacking out scraps of code
23:47	cjfrisz	There are things I miss about it, but I think I am overall happier
23:47	cjfrisz	You inherently get corralled into writing your code in a particular way when you use tools like paredit that force structure on your coding while you're in the process of writing it
23:48	uvtc	TimMc: I have not yet drank of the paredit coolaid. I kinda' like watching those matching parens light up when I type the closing ones. :)
23:48	cjfrisz	There's nothing necessarily wrong with it, but it is something I hadn't thought about when I started using it
23:48	cjfrisz	uvtc: I totally drank the paredit coolaid at first ;-)
23:48	arohner_	cjfrisz: it convinces you to type your code in a different way, but I'm reasonably sure I'm net productive on it
23:48	Frozenlock	TimMc: Yeah, paredit is among the numerous tools I've yet to try.
23:49	arohner_	never having misbalanced parens has definitely improved my flow
23:49	cjfrisz	arohner_: Mileage may vary
23:49	cjfrisz	arohner_: I don't doubt that you are very productive, and you may even be moreso than me
23:49	tomoj	you get corralled into writing your code in valid forms
23:49	tomoj	how could that be a bad thing?
23:49	eggsby	did anyone itc finish stripes CTF and mind lending a hint ?
23:49	emezeske	cjfrisz: You get corralled into writing code that has balanced and structurally correct paranthesis, but that's about it
23:50	emezeske	Every time you balance parens manually, God kills a kitten and replaces it with a slightly less productive kitten
23:52	Frozenlock	Eh, the time I waste writing parens in clojure is negligible.
23:52	Frozenlock	I waste way more time by being stupid.
23:52	Frozenlock	\o/
23:52	tomoj	it's not just auto-balancing
23:53	uvtc	Might save my right pinky some fatigue though ... not having to reach for that closing paren. :)
23:53	tomoj	(and you must also count the time spent dealing with balance errors)
23:53	emezeske	Tell me this: do you literally count the number of parens at the end of a function sometimes? And that doesn't drive you bats?
23:53	Frozenlock	(show-paren-mode)
23:54	emezeske	Still, you're basically counting. Keep moving the cursor until the paren you want is highlighted, right?
23:54	uvtc	I never count ... just let Emacs show me the matching one. It smartly highlights it when the cursor is just after the closing one.
23:55	Frozenlock	Yes.
23:55	Frozenlock	I can has bad methodz?
23:55	emezeske	To each his own.
23:55	TimMc	You don't have to use it, but you do have to try it.
23:56	cjfrisz	emezeske: That's really the crux of it
23:56	cjfrisz	I used to have a workflow that jived with paredit
23:56	Frozenlock	Yes it's on my todo list. This and elnode are on the top.
23:56	uvtc	Will try it, at some point ... just need to get this program working ...
23:56	cjfrisz	And then I worked with some people who showed me a workflow where paredit kinda got in the way
23:56	emezeske	cjfrisz: Like what?
23:56	cjfrisz	And for now I use the latter
23:56	TimMc	It's more than paren balancing -- it is structural editing. Kill a whole form at a time, or transpose it with another, or convolute them...
23:56	emezeske	I cannot possibly see how it could get in the way.
23:57	tomoj	cjfrisz: any possibility you can give an example?
23:57	Frozenlock	TimMc: To select forms I like expand-region.el
23:57	TimMc	It's hard to give examples, since code evolves in weird ways.
23:57	emezeske	You can always shut paredit off temporarily while you do some crazy pasting, and then turn it back on
23:58	Frozenlock	http://emacsrocks.com/e09.html
23:58	cjfrisz	Maybe it's less that it gets in the way and more that it's just not helpful
23:58	cjfrisz	I've started writing more of an unfinished scrap here, moving on, and then coming back to the unfinished bits
23:59	emezeske	I refuse to believe that it's more productive to write in units of not-even-structurally-correct code.
23:59	cjfrisz	I found it more helpful when there were no scraps; only plunking out complete thoughts at a time
23:59	cjfrisz	emezeske: That's fine; you don't have to