#clojure – 2012-08-29

2012-08-29

00:10	l1x	hey guys
00:12	l1x	i am trying to deconstruct a "matrix" (def matrix[[1 2 3][4 5 6][7 8 9]]) but not sure how could i do it i am trying to do something like (let [[[& rest][]] matrix]) an process the vector
00:14	gfredericks	what exactly do you want a binding to?
00:15	gfredericks	what do you want to do with the matrix?
00:15	l1x	i am trying to implement the "spiral printing" challenge
00:16	l1x	https://gist.github.com/3506753
00:17	l1x	(you have to print 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 in this case, so you need to go -> down <- up ->
00:18	gfredericks	,(let [matrix [[1 2 3][4 5 6][7 8 9]]] (doseq [row matrix, el row] (print el)))
00:18	clojurebot	123456789
00:19	gfredericks	if you just want to read through the elements then doseq can do that for you
00:20	n00b6502	is [ ] literal array or list
00:22	gfredericks	it's a vector, which is not quite either
00:22	gfredericks	but most of the time you only care that it's sequential
00:22	gfredericks	so it may as well be a list
00:22	n00b6502	'dynamic array'
00:22	gfredericks	it's just easier to type as a data literal
00:22	gfredericks	no not a dynamic array
00:22	n00b6502	oh clojure is immutable right ?
00:22	gfredericks	yep
00:22	gfredericks	so not very dynamic at all
00:23	n00b6502	'collection optimized for random acess' ?
00:23	gfredericks	yep
00:23	gfredericks	unlike lists with which you have to walk from the front to wherever you want to get
00:24	n00b6502	i'm just dabling with lisp at the minute; clojure looks like it could be fun
00:24	gfredericks	twenty billion people can't be wrong
00:25	n00b6502	thats the size of clojures' future userbase?
00:25	gfredericks	inevitably
00:26	n00b6502	its also got curly brace literals.. maps? or 'objects' ?
00:26	gfredericks	maps
00:26	n00b6502	heh maps in fp land. whats a map , a datastruture or a hof
00:26	l1x	gfredericks: thanks, but check the gist pls.
00:27	gfredericks	datastruture
00:27	n00b6502	what does clojure call the hof that applies a function to a sequence to produce another sequence
00:27	gfredericks	map :)
00:28	l1x	the challenge is the spiral print part
00:28	n00b6502	can you map a map
00:28	l1x	,(let [matrix[[1 2 3] [8 9 4] [7 6 5]]] (doseq [row matrix, el row] (print el)))
00:28	clojurebot	123894765
00:28	mk	n00b6502: yes. Do you want to map its values?
00:29	n00b6502	walking the values and getting key-value pairs i guess would be nice .. map and reduce on that
00:29	n00b6502	oh its not a sequence so reduce makes no sense perhaps
00:29	gfredericks	maps are seqable
00:30	gfredericks	,(seq {:foo 432 :bar 23})
00:30	clojurebot	([:foo 432] [:bar 23])
00:30	gfredericks	so when you use the map function on a map data structure it sees it as a seq of pairs
00:30	gfredericks	and the output is a seq as well
00:30	gfredericks	,(reduce concat {:foo 384 :bar 21})
00:30	clojurebot	(:foo 384 :bar 21)
00:30	gfredericks	^ you can reduce a map as well
00:31	n00b6502	can maps function like adhoc objects or do you still want to use classes
00:31	n00b6502	(i'm thinking of what goes on in python, lua etc)
00:31	gfredericks	maps are idiomatically used much more than anything OOey
00:31	gfredericks	they are definitely the default
00:31	mk	,(type (first {:key "val"}))
00:31	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
00:32	gfredericks	l1x: sorry I didn't notice the gist
00:32	l1x	np :)
00:32	n00b6502	does it have anything like tuples aswell - or would vectors do.
00:32	l1x	i have a really ugly solution
00:32	gfredericks	l1x: though it doesn't tell me much more than what you already said
00:32	mk	,(first (first {:key "val"}))
00:32	clojurebot	:key
00:33	gfredericks	n00b6502: vectors for tuples yes
00:33	l1x	gfredericks: please note, there is a matrix and you need to print the elements following a spiral
00:33	gfredericks	oh I see
00:33	gfredericks	you want a general solution or specific to the 3x3?
00:34	mk	n00b6502: a MapEntry is effectively a pair, incidentally
00:34	l1x	well i have an ugly 3x3 specific one
00:35	n00b6502	perhaps the implemention can store them like structs , or maybe it needs to be able to garbage collect components
00:35	gfredericks	l1x: if I had to do it and didn't care too much about performance I'd probably print the first row, then rotate the thing and recurse
00:35	gfredericks	rotate the rest of the thing rather
00:35	mk	,(conj {} [:key "val"])
00:35	clojurebot	{:key "val"}
00:36	l1x	gfredericks: what do you mean by rotating the thing?
00:37	l1x	you mean do a transform on the matrix? hmm sounds legit
00:37	gfredericks	,(let [matrix [[1 2 3] [8 9 4] [7 6 5]]] ((fn spiral [coll] (when (seq coll) (doseq [x (first coll)] (print x)) (->> coll rest (apply map vector) (recur))))))
00:38	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox$eval161$spiral>
00:38	gfredericks	,(let [matrix [[1 2 3] [8 9 4] [7 6 5]]] ((fn spiral [coll] (when (seq coll) (doseq [x (first coll)] (print x)) (->> coll rest (apply map vector) (recur)))) matrix))
00:38	clojurebot	123879465
00:38	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map>
00:38	gfredericks	I don't think that's what I meant to do
00:38	gfredericks	I'll put it in the gist when I figure it out
00:39	arohner	did I hear correctly that someone's utils library has dissoc-in?
00:40	l1x	gfredericks: brilliant idea
00:41	mk	n00b6502: not sure how you'd gc components, since they seem visible. There are a few structures that work like maps in clojure. Records, for example.
00:41	gfredericks	l1x: oh I was missing a reverse I think
00:42	gfredericks	now if I can just figure out why it has the map arity error...
00:43	l1x	https://gist.github.com/3506753
00:44	l1x	this is what you want to do?
00:44	gfredericks	I just commented
00:44	gfredericks	that one seems to work
00:45	gfredericks	I just tried it on an 8x7 matrix and seems to work there too
00:47	l1x	wow
00:47	l1x	really nice
00:47	l1x	what is the ->> (i havent reached that in the clojure book yet)
00:47	gfredericks	it's a macro for unnesting things
00:48	gfredericks	that line is equivalent to
00:48	gfredericks	(recur (reversee (apply map vector rows)))
00:48	Scriptor	l1x: it's the threading macro
00:48	l1x	och i see
00:48	Scriptor	takes the initial value, inserts it as the last form of the 2nd argument, and so on
00:49	Scriptor	well, a threading macro to be exact, -> inserts as the 2nd form of each argument
00:50	Scriptor	(->> foo (a b c) (d e f)) = (d e f (a b c foo))
00:50	n00b6502	"gc components" . is the whole collection a unit of gc.. or if you have a reference to one component passed along the rest can potentially be freed
00:51	n00b6502	i suppose it might depend on the size
00:51	gfredericks	l1x: see next comment for an appaling use of ->>
00:52	l1x	haha evil :)
00:53	n00b6502	hey is that what i think it is... (defn lerp ( lo hi f) (->> (- hi lo)(* f)(+ lo)))
00:54	n00b6502	playing with lisp i just made a macro "pipe" to do tha
00:55	Scriptor	that takes the difference between hi and lo, multiplies it by f, and adds lo to it
00:55	amalloy	although you might just as well use -> there
00:55	n00b6502	lerp(lo,hi,f)=(hi-lo)*f+lo
00:57	n00b6502	always makes me feel just that little bit less crazy when i see another implementation of a macro i wanted
01:46	emezeske	Hey, I'm writing a blog post about my experience building a commercial website out of Clojure and ClojureScript. Is there anything in particular anyone would care to know about?
01:46	emezeske	I figured I'd start with a review of the various libraries it's built on top of.
01:47	wmealing_	how you deployed it.. and upgrade it
01:48	emezeske	wmealing_: I will be sure to cover that, thanks!
01:49	wmealing_	as obvious as that sounds, people forget.. ie, intit scripts or stand alone
01:49	wmealing_	what toolchain was used
01:50	emezeske	Right on
01:50	LuminousMonkey	What wmealing_ said. :)
01:50	emezeske	:)
01:50	akhudek	emezeske: I'd be interested more in your experiences with the clojurescript side of things. Did you use much of google clousre? How did you deal with the lack of documentation? How did you find interop?
01:51	akhudek	also, did you use advanced optimization or stick with simple?
01:51	emezeske	akhudek: Okay, thanks! It might end up as a multi-part blog entry, but that will go in there for sure.
02:02	nkkarthik	emezeske: this might be sound absurd... but will it be ok to ask for... how we can reproduce/debug a production issue... and possibly fix it on-the-fly... without restart, I mean
02:02	nkkarthik	not that we should do it that way, of course
02:03	emezeske	nkkarthik: I'm not sure if I'll be able to fit that into this particular blog entry, but I will put that on my TO-WRITE list
02:03	emezeske	nkkarthik: You are talking about things like a REPL in prod?
02:04	nkkarthik	emezeske: yeah I too felt it wouldn't fit into this... just was curious
02:06	emezeske	nkkarthik: Sure!
02:08	nkkarthik	emezeske: repl... hmm... maybe I am new and not sure... but in our case we mostly try to have proper logs... but there are issues with logs... you know the levels should be correct... but still you might not able to get the correct picture of what's happening and... locally reproducing also sometimes fails due to DB stuff
02:08	nkkarthik	developing is surely interesting... after release, this is one pain point
02:09	emezeske	That is very true, maintaining the working app is super important
02:10	nkkarthik	we don't use clojure... I am learning in my free time...
02:10	nkkarthik	you know these erlang guys boast about there zero downtime and continuous upgrades or fixes... I looked a little into erlang to for that :)
02:11	nkkarthik	clojure should also be able to do that I thought
02:15	nkkarthik	and I heard erlang can connect and debug running prod systems... will have to look into that too... maybe it's a repl
02:16	nkkarthik	or maybe you can turn on/off trace for some time
02:17	l1x	,(->> [[8 9 4] [7 6 5]] (apply map vector))
02:17	clojurebot	([8 7] [9 6] [4 5])
02:17	l1x	could somebody explain this ^
02:19	nkkarthik	l1x: this is same as
02:19	nkkarthik	,(map vector [8 9 4] [7 6 5])
02:19	clojurebot	([8 7] [9 6] [4 5])
02:20	nkkarthik	l1x: if you want the exact steps
02:21	l1x	nkkarthik: thanks, i forgot that map applies the function in this way to multiple parameters
02:21	l1x	but now i remember
02:21	l1x	thnka
02:21	nkkarthik	l1x: oh ok... so you got it :) cool
02:21	l1x	yeah
02:23	l1x	nkkarthik: so now i have only one question :)
02:24	l1x	if you dont mind
02:24	nkkarthik	l1x: please shoot
02:24	l1x	this is the line of code i wanted to understand (when (seq rows) (->> rows (apply map vector) reverse recur))
02:25	l1x	now why cant i just (when (blah) (map vector rows) reverse recur)?
02:27	nkkarthik	you want to expand the rows right?... apply does that
02:27	nkkarthik	there is a difference between
02:27	nkkarthik	,(map vector '[[a b c] [1 2 3]])
02:27	clojurebot	([[a b c]] [[1 2 3]])
02:27	nkkarthik	,(map vector '[a b c] '[1 2 3])
02:27	clojurebot	([a 1] [b 2] [c 3])
02:28	nkkarthik	just doing (map vector rows) is like the first one (map vector '[[a b c] [1 2 3]])
02:29	nkkarthik	but (apply map vector rows) is like (map vector row1 row2 row3..) etc
02:29	nkkarthik	did I make sense?
02:29	l1x	hmm let me re-read
02:29	l1x	och i see
02:30	l1x	sorry my question was not clear
02:30	l1x	why is it better to use the ->> macro?
02:32	nkkarthik	ah... that's just... a style thing I suppose... we could pretty well do the regular (recur (reverse (apply map vector rows)))
02:34	l1x	och man, you are awesome
02:34	l1x	now it makes sense
02:34	nkkarthik	the usual way you have to read inside-out (inner s-exp to outer)... but with -> or ->> you can read left to right
02:35	l1x	i like to inner to outer way
02:35	l1x	just like when in school i learned that parenthesis always should be read this way
02:35	l1x	kind of feels more natural to me
02:36	l1x	now i understand the entire code
02:36	l1x	<3 clojure
02:37	nkkarthik	l1x: cool... have fun :)
02:37	l1x	thanks!
02:37	l1x	this lang has the best community :)
02:38	nkkarthik	l1x: just a suggestion, don't overlook -> , it sometimes makes code more readable
02:41	nkkarthik	like (-> camera take-shot convert-to-png save)
02:41	l1x	i see
02:41	nkkarthik	might be more readable than (save (convert-to-png (take-shot camera)))
02:41	l1x	i am fairly new to clojure so i try to understand the basics
02:42	l1x	haha after 2 weeks with clojure actually the second version makes perfect sense to me :))
02:42	nkkarthik	l1x: yeah sure... just wanned to let you know
02:43	nkkarthik	ah nice :)
02:43	l1x	:))
02:43	l1x	i am infected with lispism for life
02:43	amalloy	nkkarthik: it's easy to go too far with ->, though. i like to use it to let me put my "verbs" in whatever order best explains what i'm doing, with the stuff i want to emphasize on the left. for example, perhaps (save (-> (take-shot camera) (convert-to-png)))
02:44	amalloy	this way you don't have to go far to see that you're saving a camera shot, and convert-to-png is a detail you can ignore
02:47	magopian	always very interesting to have this kind of feedback/experience amalloy thanks
02:47	nkkarthik	amalloy: right... very true
02:48	nkkarthik	amalloy: I was exaggerating in the process of coming up with some example quickly :)
02:50	magopian	what does "fn" do? it seems to do the exact same as "fn", but when i print '(fn [] ()) it gives me (fn ([] ()))
02:50	nkkarthik	convert-to-png is likely an implementation detail... but I was thinking of user actions... when they do "Take Shot" then we could have a "Save-as" window where user might select png or jpeg... and save...
02:51	magopian	*when i str
04:06	mmajchrzak	Hi. It is possible to write andoid apps in clojure ? What are the cons and pros of using clojure for that kind of jobs?
04:09	nz-	mmajchrzak: it is certainly possible to do scala apps for android, so clojure should be also possible
04:10	alcy	http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/clojure-inventor-hickey-now-aims-android-189105 might shed some light
04:10	mmajchrzak	I 've heard that there is problem with gc on android when app is created in clojure.
04:11	n00b6502	immutability possibly keeps more garbage around
04:11	n00b6502	also its possible the dalvik virtual machine is more tuned for their compilers
04:11	n00b6502	their java compilers
04:12	n00b6502	i would be interested in this sort of thinng though, i never want to touch java.
04:13	mmajchrzak	Is there any other jvm language for writing andoird apps ? I have Java on my university and i dont want to touch it anymore.
04:13	n00b6502	my guess is scala
04:13	rojepp	F# via mono?
04:14	n00b6502	f# -> mono -> dalvik ?
04:14	rojepp	mono har 'mono for android' which supposedly works well.
04:14	rojepp	Can't say I've tried it though.
04:14	n00b6502	oh C#/mono is a better java supposedly
04:15	n00b6502	'java done right'.
04:15	rojepp	F# is way better than C#
04:17	mmajchrzak	c# is for java is something like a D for c++.
04:18	n00b6502	interesting, f# is functional but still allows object.member unlike haskell?
04:19	rojepp	Yes. often called a 'functional first' language. Immutability is default, but you always have the option to go mutable where needed for speed and interop with rest of .Net
04:19	augustl	sounds a lot like Clojure :)
04:19	n00b6502	i'm enjoying getting into lisp, but its always the lack of straightforward object.member syntax that starts to grate
04:20	n00b6502	i can handle writing maths prefix just fine
04:20	rojepp	It differs from Clojure in that it's statically typed, and there are no macros. :)
04:20	n00b6502	ah f# has \|>
04:20	rojepp	The language is baswed on ML family of languages, most directly from OCaml.
04:21	n00b6502	gui programming vs functional ...
04:22	n00b6502	is it easy to dable with this under linux; i'm put off anything originated by microsoft
04:23	rojepp	Well, MonoDevelop has an F# binding that runs on MacOSX. Haven't tried it on Linux
04:23	rojepp	but it should run there as well
04:24	n00b6502	i think i'leave it..i have enough potential languages to juggle between already
04:24	n00b6502	hmm. at a glance though it does look pretty goo
04:25	rojepp	'It is a really nice language, terse and readable. Too bad it is from MS. ;-)
04:26	n00b6502	does clojure actually have object.member
04:26	augustl	what's object.member?
04:26	n00b6502	or is that too infixy
04:26	n00b6502	just the syntax for record acess whatever you call it
04:26	augustl	you're probably asking the people that already know F# so never mind :)
04:27	augustl	n00b6502: you can call methods on java objects with (.foo my-obj)
04:27	n00b6502	. in lisp is "slot-value" i think
04:27	augustl	and you typically access maps/record/... with (:member object)
04:27	n00b6502	(slot-value myobj foo)
04:28	mmajchrzak	I've found mono for andoird but it isnt open source
04:28	n00b6502	i was going to guess mono for android sounds like a world of pain
04:29	n00b6502	anything built directly around jvm sounds more sane, scala / clojure..
04:29	n00b6502	having said that, how do they get to dalvik
04:29	kilon	very few things are originated by microsoft , C# and .NET is not one of them
04:29	Fossi	they could use the ndk as well
04:30	Fossi	so via c
04:30	n00b6502	NDK doesn't expose gui frameworks does it
04:30	n00b6502	ndk is mostly for opengl games c/c++
04:30	Fossi	not in a nice way
04:30	Fossi	afaik you can use them
04:30	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc?al?
04:30	nz-	mmajchrzak: there are some notes about scala&android game development: http://scalandroid.blogspot.fi/
04:30	n00b6502	hehe they didn't like my question on android-dev... can NDK compile objective-c ...
04:30	augustl	kilon: according to wikipedia, C# originated at MS, what am I missing? :)
04:31	n00b6502	yes i thought c# really was designed by a microsoft employee - not bought
04:31	kjeldahl	If you're targeting Android, Kawa might not be a bad choice, see http://kjeldahl.net/d7/node/32
04:31	kilon	augustl: C# and .NET is not created by mircrosoft, its create mostly by one man, the same man that created Delphi for Borland
04:32	Fossi	a backend for android/dalvik was planned
04:32	n00b6502	ah then they bought it ok.
04:32	augustl	kilon: he seems to be a microsoft employee though
04:32	kilon	which in turn he was largerly influenced by smalltalk
04:32	kilon	he is
04:32	rojepp	kilon: Yes, Hejlsberg was hired by Microsoft, what is your point?
04:32	nz-	mmajchrzak: my guess is that you won't make things easier if you use clojure with android
04:33	augustl	then I would say that microsoft made C#
04:33	kilon	i am not saying that microsoft does not own it as a product
04:33	rojepp	I'm pretty sure he didn't do it himself either.
04:33	n00b6502	microsoft paid him more than anyone else would
04:33	thorwil	by that logic, no product is made by a company ...
04:33	n00b6502	founder
04:34	n00b6502	someimtes a product really is made by a founder of a company
04:34	kilon	you said "origin"
04:34	kilon	microsoft is good at copying stuff or hiring people working at competitive products
04:35	kilon	if microsoft as a company had .NET as an idea, even as a vague concept, then yes i would agree
04:41	n00b6502	does f# have currying
04:47	kilon	anyway, i do not come across as a troll, it just pains me when i see thing not survivning by their own , see Delphi, and when embraced by a big company they become the second comming of christ, feel like humanity is zombified and completely oblivious to quality software or software of any kind
04:47	kilon	*I dont not want to come...
04:48	rojepp	n00b6502: Yes: http://hestia.typepad.com/flatlander/2011/06/partial-function-application-in-f-part-1-the-basics.html
05:02	noidi	what's wrong with my use of `await` here? https://gist.github.com/304b72eb346cdc42898f
05:03	noidi	it seems to return before all agents are finished
05:03	noidi	I'm a complete agent newb as you can probably tell :)
05:43	alcy	hello, have a Q regarding list eval - the clojure prog book gives an example like (eval '(average [1 2 3])) - is there a significance of using the quote here ?
05:43	alcy	as otherwise also, it will return the value
05:46	ejackson	alcy: yes. as given eval will be passed the list (average [1 2 3]) which it will eval. W/o the quote eval is passed the the number 2 to eval
05:46	Raynes	alcy: Yes.
05:47	borkdude	alcy yes
05:47	borkdude	,(eval 9)
05:47	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
05:47	borkdude	=> 9
05:47	Raynes	alcy: If you don't use the quote, it'll try to evaluate the code normally. It'd try to call the function average on that vector and then give the result to eval. In this case, you're passing the list itself to eval because you're preventing evaluate.
05:48	Raynes	evaluation*
05:49	Raynes	It isn't immediately obvious because eval returns the same thing regardless. In one case, you're passing the list itself and eval is evaluating and you get the result (a number) and without the quote you're passing the result of the function average itself to eval, and eval just gives you back that same number.
05:50	alcy	Raynes: ah, right ! many thanks for the explantion
05:50	alcy	ejackson: borkdude thanks
05:51	borkdude	alcy for saying yes? anytime
06:01	kral	namaste
06:02	john2x	is this valid? (require '[(symbol (str "foo" ".bar")) :as bar])
06:05	ro_st	no, because :symbols aren't valid namespace definitions
06:06	ro_st	you're looking for http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/ns-resolve
06:06	noidi	ro_st, :keywords begin with a colon
06:06	ro_st	oh
06:06	ro_st	hahah
06:06	ro_st	why do i keep mixing those up
06:06	ro_st	my apologies
06:06	ro_st	you still want ns-resolve, though
06:09	noidi	I just asked this, but just in case you guys missed it, anyone know what's wrong with my `await` call? https://gist.github.com/304b72eb346cdc42898f
06:09	noidi	the agents seem to keep going after the `await`
06:10	john2x	ah. so it will be (referring to the example in clojuredocs.org): (require '[(ns-resolve ns (symbol (str "foo." "bar"))) :as bar])?
06:12	noidi	john2x, ns-resolve will return you the var, no need to call require
06:13	noidi	(let [dynamically-found-var (ns-resolve ...)] (do-something-with dynamically-found-var))
06:13	john2x	ahh.. got it. thanks!
06:16	ro_st	really would be cool to have such resolution in clojurescript
06:18	noidi	argh, this agent think is driving me crazy
06:19	pisketti	Can anyone tell me where have the zip-filter library moved?
06:19	pisketti	from clojure.contrib I mean
06:20	noidi	pisketti, http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
06:21	pisketti	noidi: Thanks a lot!
06:22	grahamcarlyle	hi, has anyone had success with writing a library written in clojure that has its dependencies renamespaced
06:24	grahamcarlyle	so using a tool like proguard to make the clojure jar and other dependencies not conflict with a client of the jar
06:25	grahamcarlyle	just wondering whether its possible/wise to do
06:31	noidi	okay, I figured my `await` problem out
06:31	noidi	RTFS helped here
06:34	noidi	`await` works by adding its own action to the agent's queue. I "loop" within agents by sending new actions to agent from within an action, and `await` sticks its action between my loops iteration actions.
06:34	noidi	so there are still iterations to do when `await` returns
06:36	noidi	I guess I'll just add a promise as a part of each agent's state and deliver to it when done
06:36	noidi	and instead of `await` deref all the promises
06:55	ro_st	-grin-
07:10	Kneferilis	hello
07:10	Kneferilis	would you say that clojure is more powerful than scala?
07:11	ro_st	yes
07:11	ro_st	that was easy!
07:11	ejackson	clojure has macros, so is by definition more able. Whether that's helpful/useful/relevent is another question.
07:11	ro_st	and it has less syntax, which makes it easier
07:12	ejackson	i think 'powerful' is context dependent
07:12	ro_st	also, its creator plays a guitar and says incredibly thoughtful thought provoking things
07:13	naeg	+1 ro_st
07:13	ro_st	ultimately, though, if it solves the problem you have, it's powerful enough
07:13	Kneferilis	but scala has introduced macros (although experimental at the time)
07:13	Kneferilis	would that make scala now, on par with clojure?
07:13	ejackson	without homoiconicity macros are a cruel joke
07:14	naeg	I guess those macros might be like the C-macros
07:14	ejackson	they're just different - scala is statically typed and it diverges from there
07:14	naeg	basically bullshit compared to lisp macros
07:15	Kneferilis	hmm, currently I am creating a rpg video game mostly written in JavaScript with some PHP code, next I will create a simulation game in play2 + scala
07:15	Kneferilis	what kind of game could I create in clojure?
07:16	ejackson	anything
07:16	naeg	"effort towards bringing compile-time metaprogramming to Scala. Our flavor of macros is reminiscent of Lisp macros"
07:16	naeg	I probably was too hasty
07:17	ejackson	it really doesn't matter
07:17	ejackson	program in what you like
07:18	ro_st	yeah. like i said: solve the problems.
07:19	Kneferilis	yes
07:19	naeg	Clojure is still an interesting "replacement" for Java or Scala for certain tasks, due to its functional style. also, as much as I can tell scala macros are not as powerful as lisp's, but still much more powerful than those in C
07:20	clgv	a java dev question: where does ${version.number} usually come from in an ant build file?
07:20	vijaykiran	depends on how it is configured - one guess might be from build.properties
07:22	clgv	vijaykiran: ah thx. that's right. it is in there
07:22	ro_st	enjoying your web-app tuts, vijaykiran :-)
07:22	vijaykiran	:) thanks - I've been meaning to update them to 1.4
07:24	ejackson	vijaykiran: link ?
07:24	vijaykiran	ejackson: http://www.vijaykiran.com/2012/02/27/web-application-development-with-clojure-part-5/
07:25	ejackson	thanks
07:25	ro_st	vijaykiran: have you seen my cljs demo app? https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote/
07:26	ejackson	very nice
07:26	vijaykiran	ro_st: looks cool - starred :)
07:27	vijaykiran	ro_st: I'm not that comfortable with cljs stuff yet - this will certainly help!
07:27	ro_st	cool. let me know what you think.
07:27	ro_st	oh that's good. you'll enjoy this then
07:32	rojepp	vijaykiran: Thanks, great resource for a total newb like me.
07:34	vijaykiran	rojepp: yw :)
07:35	ro_st	vijaykiran: i'm glad you avoided noir, not because noir is bad (it isn't), but because you get to show how all those various things compose
07:35	ro_st	many people coming to clj from other web techs are undoubtedly using their home lang's Monolithic Framework ™
07:36	vijaykiran	After using a lot of "Frameworks" - I'm generally less inclined to use anything that has the word in it.
07:37	ro_st	+1
07:37	ro_st	my cljs demo shows just how nicely those 3 libs compose to make an app
07:37	ro_st	you could use hiccup and jayq instead of enfocus and still use remotes and pubsub
07:38	ro_st	or toss the remotes and use plain-jane xhr
07:49	ejackson	yup, the mantra is "small, composable abstractions" :)
07:49	ro_st	anyone using an SSD drive here?
07:49	ejackson	i'm still figuring out how to do it right
07:50	ejackson	ro_st: yes
07:50	vijaykiran	ro_st: me.
07:50	ro_st	is it really worth going for one of the more expensive types?
07:50	ejackson	ro_st: dunno, I did and am blissful
07:50	ro_st	eg, the OWC Extreme over the OWC non-Extreme
07:50	ejackson	:D
07:50	vijaykiran	I have been using the OWC one
07:51	vijaykiran	"120GB Mercury Extreme" last year model
07:51	ro_st	i'm looking at this one http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/797516-REG/OWC_Other_World_Computing_OWCSSDMX6G120_Mercury_Electra_6G_Solid.html
07:51	ejackson	samsung 830 6GBs
07:52	ro_st	my OS drive is only 70gb of data. all my media is on a secondary drive (yay hackintosh)
07:52	ro_st	does it speed up JVM start times ? :-)
07:53	vijaykiran	probably not :) but maven builds are faster - with disk i/o
07:53	vijaykiran	I use XSlimmer + Clusters that compress many folders and apps
07:53	vijaykiran	so 120GB is fairly good amount of space for me
07:54	ro_st	nice
07:54	ro_st	OSX?
07:54	vijaykiran	:) yeah
07:56	ro_st	awesome. i'm going to go for the one i pasted. may it last a long time!
07:57	ejackson	you're gonna be amazed
07:57	vijaykiran	I got the combo of SSD + exernal enclosure for the current 500GB spinning drive
07:58	ro_st	my bro just did his macbookpro
07:58	ro_st	he starts the entire adobe cs6 suite up in like 15 seconds
07:58	vijaykiran	http://vimeo.com/21389323 :)
07:59	vijaykiran	after SSD upgrade
08:01	ro_st	that's just nuts
08:22	Sgeo	Hmm
08:22	Sgeo	I wonder if tryclj.com can be broken by exploiting the 0-day?
08:22	Sgeo	Or the bots in here
08:29	rojepp	Sgeo: I have java plugin disabled and tryclj.com works, so no.
08:30	rojepp	Sgeo: oh, you meant break the jvm on the server?
08:30	Sgeo	rojepp, yeah
08:33	xeqi	Sgeo: if http://www.h-online.com/security/features/The-new-Java-0day-examined-1677789.html is correct in explaining it, then yes
08:34	Sgeo	The clojail would have to be broken too though, I assume?
08:39	xeqi	hmm, yeah. I've broken clojail before, so now it blocks access to the java.security package, which is needed to make the AccessControlContext
08:39	xeqi	so lazybot might be safe
08:41	Sgeo	What is this Expression thing/
08:41	hyPiRion	clojurebot is probably dangerous.
08:41	hyPiRion	,'broken?
08:41	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pr-str in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
08:41	hyPiRion	well, somewhat at least.
08:43	Sgeo	Clojure> java.security.AccessControlContext
08:43	Sgeo	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class java.security.AccessControlContext is bad!
08:44	Sgeo	I think that that's Clojail and java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission setSecurityManager) is JVM sandboxing?
08:45	xeqi	the clojail portion blocked that
08:46	Sgeo	"that" being which?
08:47	Sgeo	I assume that things like codepad and ideone aren't vulnerable because they use something outside the language environment's security for security purposes?
08:48	xeqi	Sgeo: https://github.com/flatland/clojail/blob/master/src/clojail/core.clj#L295 -- the "java.security.AccessControlContext" string you sent was blocked by a clojail tester, so it threw an exception before trying to run it
08:49	Sgeo	Hmm, so why the different message?
08:49	Sgeo	Wait, no, that was the one I thought was clojail
08:50	xeqi	ah, I missread
08:50	xeqi	you're right
08:52	xeqi	looking further, the 0day looks to exploit the default security for jars vs local files. lazybot, clojurebot, and tryclj all have a different java.security that restricts local files further, so they are probably safe
08:53	xeqi	not that there aren't other ways...
08:54	xeqi	*by jars I meant applets
08:55	jsabeaudry	Slime is being abandoned in favor of nrepl?
08:56	pjstadig	jsabeaudry: it is being deprecated, yes
08:56	uvtc	jsabeaudry: http://technomancy.us/163
08:57	uvtc	Does this fragment of a stack trace ring any bells for anyone? :
08:57	uvtc	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
08:57	uvtc	at clojure.lang.Numbers.ops(Numbers.java:942)
08:57	uvtc	at clojure.lang.Numbers.add(Numbers.java:126)
08:57	fro0g	you mean swank-clojure is being deprecated
08:58	uvtc	The function seems to work fine when tested by itself in isolation...
08:58	xeqi	&(+ nil nil)
08:58	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
08:58	Sgeo	NIL MUST DIE
08:58	Sgeo	NULL MUST BE DESTROYED
08:58	jsabeaudry	pjstadig, uvtc: thanks for the info, I'll give it a spin I guess
08:58	uvtc	Thanks xeqi . Will explore that.
08:59	pjstadig	yeah, uvtc, you're probably sending a nil to it at some point
09:01	ejackson	uvtc: all too damn familiar I'm afraid :)
09:01	uvtc	Glad it rang a few bells, anyway. :)
09:02	pjstadig	ejackson: are you using migratus?
09:02	pjstadig	ejackson: did you get a notification about this? https://github.com/pjstadig/migratus/issues/8
09:04	ejackson	pjstadig: Yeah, sorry dude its on my todo list for today !
09:04	ejackson	I'm really excited for it to work :)
09:04	pjstadig	np i wasn't sure if the notification came through to you
09:05	ejackson	sorry, I didn't want to spam up the comments with a "Awesome - I'll check it out"
09:06	ejackson	pjstadig: I haven't checked but is migratus lein2 capable now ?
09:06	pjstadig	hehe
09:06	pjstadig	uh
09:06	ejackson	:)
09:06	pjstadig	i don't know
09:06	pjstadig	i haven't tried, i mostly use lein1
09:07	ejackson	not a biggie, i was just curious
09:07	pjstadig	i think there's actually an issue for that though
09:14	jsabeaudry	Is there something like clojure-toolbox.com but for lein plugins? I'd like to see what plugins exist
09:21	uvtc	xeqi pjstadig ejackson : Ah, found the problem! I was doing a `cond` checking for all possible values of some result `(< x 10)` ... `(and (> x 10) (< x 20))` ... but should've had some >='s in there. :) Thanks!
09:21	pjstadig	uvtc: glad you figured it out!
09:21	ejackson	uvtc: sneaky bug
09:23	xeqi	jsabeaudry: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Plugins
09:24	jsabeaudry	xeqi, great, many thanks!
09:24	wmealing_	since i'm new to this, is there some kind of generic "service/daemon" mechanism or application update mechanism used by java/clojure ?
09:25	uvtc	wmealing_: What exactly are you looking to do?
09:25	wmealing_	i have a java app, i want to deploy to mac, lin, win.. different machines
09:26	wmealing_	i push an update to a server repository.. and ideally id' like to write as little code as possible
09:26	wmealing_	and have the clients auto-update to the version that is pushed
09:26	wmealing_	i'd also like some kind of daemon/process manager that will restart them if updated
09:26	uvtc	Oh. "A new version of this program is available! Upgrade now?"
09:27	wmealing_	without asking.. but yes.
09:27	wmealing_	i maintain all the machines, so ..
09:27	wmealing_	i can package it in rpm, (whatever format osx uses) and some kind of .msi installer
09:27	wmealing_	but that seems stupidly overkill.
09:27	wmealing_	considering java is supposed to be cross platform
09:27	pjstadig	wmealing_: i don't know of any off hand, seems like there might be some kind of java something somewhere
09:28	wmealing_	thats what i'm thinking.. there has to be something
09:28	pjstadig	wmealing_: have you asked the googles?
09:28	wmealing_	yeah, not much luck
09:28	pjstadig	hmm
09:28	wmealing_	i might be using the wrong terms though
09:28	pjstadig	you might be able to try someplace where java devs hang out too, a forum or something
09:29	wmealing_	i came here, because the quality of answer is usually better... :)
09:30	wmealing_	i kind of expected this to be something that people would have used.
09:33	uvtc	wmealing_: maybe ask about it on #leiningen.
09:39	naeg	does lighttable use noir?
09:45	darklajid	pjstadig: Would it be possible to bundle your app with java webstart?
09:46	pjstadig	darklajid: i suppose so
09:46	darklajid	I assume that would solve your deployment issues
09:48	rojepp	naeg: "Light Table actually uses Noir, so it's certainly still alive. I'm not the primary one driving things day to day right now, Raynes has been helping out with that."
09:49	rojepp	naeg: http://yogthos.net/blog/22 in comments
09:49	naeg	thanks, just stumpled upon his tutorial
09:49	naeg	stumbled*
09:50	naeg	I'm new to Clojure and want to create a web interface for connect 4 - what would you suggest to use? Noir?
09:51	uvtc	naeg: I find plain Ring + Compojure to be straightforward.
09:51	xeqi	naeg: thats an ok place to start, and if you decide to clojurescript the frontend you can talk between server/client with fetch
09:53	uvtc	naeg: To get started with a new Compojure project using lein 2: `lein new compojure connect4`
09:53	clgv	uvtc: thats very persuasive ;)
09:54	naeg	uvtc: reading their examples right now
09:55	naeg	I'm also unsure about how to animate that connect four field then. Would that involve ClojureScript?
09:56	cshell	Has anyone heard when Oracle is going to patch the 0 day exploit in Java?
09:58	wmealing_	when they want to
09:59	cshell	yeah, hopefully soon - I think it's a little irrational for everyone to be uninstalling java from their pcs
09:59	wmealing_	cshell: watch this space http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=2012-4681
09:59	cshell	nice, thanks
09:59	uvtc	naeg: If you want something like a single-page client-side webapp, then my understanding is that you probably want to check out ClojureScript.
10:00	naeg	cshell: do people do so? I guess it's enough to tell your browser only to run Java on-click (and then just click those you trust or none) and don't run java apps you don't trust yourself
10:00	cshell	Yeah, that's what I'd figure - but a lot of the news media posted stories that told people the only way to completely avoid it is to uninstall it
10:00	naeg	also, afaik that bug is not in Java 1.6 and most people use this.
10:01	clgv	cshell: lol yeah. you just have to disable the browser plugin ^^
10:01	wmealing_	openjdk has a patch
10:01	naeg	uvtc: thanks, noted that stuff down. I guess I'll start with the connect four AI first and create a simple CLI for now
10:01	cshell	my java plugin has never worked in chrome, so I wasn't too worried :)
10:02	Sgeo	Does Minecraft work on OpenJDK? </offtopic>
10:02	cshell	the CERT alert says 1.7, but the same news story I saw said that it affected 1.6 too but I haven't seen anything official about that
10:02	uvtc	naeg: If you want to make your game as a regular desktop app, maybe use [Quil](https://github.com/quil/quil).
10:02	clgv	Sgeo: if it works on java , I guess so - since its the reference implementation
10:03	clgv	args *"java 7" I wanted to say
10:03	Sgeo	Hmm.
10:03	Sgeo	Maybe by reading about OpenJDK I will feel more comfortable learning the Java standard library and ecosystem?
10:05	naeg	uvtc: thanks, will consider that too. Actually not the guy doing interface stuff. more interested in coding the AI, but I guess it would be nicer with and some practice for me in clj
10:05	clgv	I wouldn't know why this would help you, but if it does. good ;)
10:41	dgrnbrg	I am encountering the strangest of bugs: I have a distributed application that uses leiningen to build an uberjar of its dependencies, then it ships that jar to the local disk of a bunch of remote machines, and then it starts the program on each machine. 40-70% of the time, however, the program fails to start by not finding a random class due to an "invalid LOC header (bad signature)" error caused by the inflaterinputstream used by
10:42	dgrnbrg	it fails on random classes, like "clojure.core$ffirst", "org.apache.http.HttpException", and others
10:42	dgrnbrg	and all the jars have the same (correct) md5sum...
10:42	dgrnbrg	any ideas?
10:43	llasram	Could the JAR file be not fully written at the time execution starts?
10:43	cemerick	dgrnbrg: might want to start sending a hash of the file around and checking that as part of the distribution process
10:45	jsabeaudry	How can I clear/unload a namespace (I'm working with nrepl.el)?
10:46	dgrnbrg	Let me do a hash verify on every node, and then i can see if that narrows it down at all
10:47	_zach	jsabeaudry: possible remove-ns? http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/remove-ns
10:47	_zach	jsabeaudry: I've not actually used this, but it's a place to start
10:47	clgv	dgrnbrg: do you use pallet?
10:47	dgrnbrg	clgv: nope
10:47	dgrnbrg	My flow is this:
10:48	dgrnbrg	I create the jar locally, then copy it to an NFS share in the cluster (slow link). Then, each of the processes copies from the cluster NFS share to their local disk (fast link), and sets the classpath as the local copy of the jar
10:49	dgrnbrg	if i run the exactly same process 1000x, i see around 50% of the process getting corrupted zips, i think
10:50	jsabeaudry	_zach, interesting, I'm trying to load the ns again after doing that and nrepl is stuck at "Loading /home/my/file.clj..."
10:50	dgrnbrg	also, it seems as if the time delta between copying the file to the cluster share and starting the job has an effect--immediately after the copy, it's less likely to succeed than long after
10:50	_zach	jsabeaudry: Bah, I really wish I could help you more, but I'm not really sure
10:52	jsabeaudry	How do people cleanup the :use and :require declarations? I refactored a lot of stuff and now I'm pretty sure some of my use and requires are not neeeded anymore, I was thinking of removing one and reloading the file but it seems i can remove event those that are still needed
10:53	pjstadig	jsabeaudry: manually, or you could use slamhound from technomancy
10:56	lotia	is it possible to start up noir from within an nrepl session? if so, any pointers?
10:56	jsabeaudry	pjstadig, another great plugin! thanks!
11:03	dgrnbrg	cemerick: I have checked the hashes of failing startups vs. the hash of the main application, and the jars are identical
11:04	dgrnbrg	There must be something crazy happening when I load the class to cause the bad signature error in the classloader
11:05	darklajid	dgrnbrg: And the clients that fail are random as well? Nothing locally? Or do you use one client, 1000 times?
11:05	cemerick	lotia: noir is just a library; starting it from within nREPL should be the same as starting it from any other REPL.
11:05	dgrnbrg	darklajid: the clients that fail are random
11:06	dgrnbrg	I have a cluster that I start the jobs on
11:06	dgrnbrg	The jobs copy the jar locally, print the md5sum, then start the jvm
11:06	dgrnbrg	random ones fail, even though their md5sums are fine
11:07	jsabeaudry	Can anyone else confirm this potential nrepl.el/nrepl bug? Step1: C-c C-k on a ns of your choice (It loads correctly), Step2: Go to repl and (remove-ns 'yourns), Step3: Try to load the ns again (Does not work)
11:09	wmealing_	dont you use c-c c-l ?
11:10	wmealing_	to reload the current namespace..
11:10	jsabeaudry	wmealing_, same thing happens
11:11	jsabeaudry	wmealing_, C-c C-k is load current buffer, C-c C-l is load file, the default being the current buffer
11:11	wmealing_	ah right
11:11	wmealing_	ok
11:11	Frozenlock	Any idea what is happening? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Desktop API is not supported on the current platform at org.jdesktop.swingx.hyperlink.HyperlinkAction.<init>(HyperlinkAction.java:131)
11:11	Frozenlock	I'm not event calling the function that needs this hyperlink!
11:12	Frozenlock	Could it be that the mere fact that it exists is throwing an error?
11:12	samflores	hey folks, is there a way I can implement existing core functions to with with other data? e.g (+ "hello" "world")
11:13	samrat	I need to be able to pass a URL as an argument to a Noir-powered API. what do I do?
11:13	pjstadig	samflores: in very few cases you can, but otherwise, no
11:13	pjstadig	samflores: in the case of + definitely not
11:14	wmealing_	you make baby rich cry.
11:14	samflores	:/
11:14	wmealing_	sad faces all round
11:14	pjstadig	+ deals only with numbers, and in common cases actually gets inlined
11:14	clgv	samflores: hwy not be specific and use `str`?
11:14	pjstadig	so you can't even redef it for numbers
11:15	pjstadig	but the upside is it's fast :)
11:15	samflores	the example was only to demonstrate my intention :)
11:18	jsabeaudry	pjstadig, well, looks like slamhound does not work on lein2, what was your "manual" technique?
11:18	pjstadig	hehe
11:18	pjstadig	just searching through the file for uses of things in the ns form
11:18	pjstadig	and removing things that are not mentioned
11:19	jsabeaudry	how do you validate your changes?
11:20	clgv	jsabeaudry: you can comment all your uses and requires and see where you get erros and then include them again
11:20	clgv	jsabeaudry: or you can try to port slamhound to lein2. there is a decent chance that it might not be too much effort
11:20	pjstadig	jsabeaudry: well we have a policy never to do a bare use, so a function must specifically be mentioned in the ns form for us to use it
11:20	jsabeaudry	clgv, what is the most efficient way of recompiling the namespace
11:21	pjstadig	if it's not used in the body of the file, then it can be removed from the ns form
11:21	clgv	jsabeaudry: the key shortcut of your ide to reload the namespace
11:21	pjstadig	and using emacs it's just C-c C-k to recompile and verify
11:22	jsabeaudry	clgv, sadly, when I remove all requires (even those that are in use) the file still loads properly (as if the previous requires were "remembered" somehow
11:23	clgv	jsabeaudry: I only see that behavior if I used (use ...) on the repl manually
11:23	jsabeaudry	clgv, are you using swank, nrepl, or seomthing else?
11:23	clgv	CCW and thus nrepl
11:25	jsabeaudry	Something must be wrong on my side then, I'm using nrepl with emacs, I C-c C-k the file, everything is fine, comment out the :use directive, save the file, C-c C-k again and the ns still loads fine
11:26	john2x	I'm trying to follow the mouse.clj example in Quil (https://github.com/quil/quil/blob/master/examples/mouse.clj), but I get this error when running it: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: _mouseX for class quil.applet.proxy$processing.core.PApplet$IMeta$c506c738 any Quil users here?
11:27	pjstadig	jsabeaudry: yeah you'll have to restart whatever clojure process is compilng your ns, or else it will still have the references to the things you removed
11:28	pjstadig	you can also use leiningen at the command line to compile a specific namespace
11:28	pjstadig	something like `lein compile foo.bar.baz` i think
11:28	pjstadig	or `lein compile :all` if you want to try everything
11:28	casion	john2x: what ver of clojure are you using?
11:28	pjstadig	not sure if the specifics changed with lein2, i'm still on lein1
11:29	casion	john2x: you need to be on 1.4, it looks like you're using 1.3
11:30	john2x	casion: how do I check the clojure version Leiningen is using?
11:31	clgv	john2x: for your project leiningen gets you the clojure version you specified in your project.clj
11:31	casion	john2x: it shoud say in your project.clj
11:32	magopian	chouser: hello ;) Did you notice that your problem http://www.4clojure.com/problem/130 uses "vector" instead of "list"? nothing bad, just fyi ;)
11:33	john2x	casion: ah yes. it was indeed 1.3.0.. thanks! how did you tell from my error message?
11:33	casion	john2x: went through back issues on github
11:34	casion	john2x: https://github.com/quil/quil/issues?page=1&state=closed #20
11:35	john2x	casion: awesome.. thanks!
11:35	casion	np :)
11:35	abalone	i thought casion was going to say he was standing behind you
11:35	casion	lol, no I'm a hermit ;)
11:36	casion	spend in any one of 3 large rooms with no windows, and no human contact for 14 hours a day
11:36	casion	spend all day*
11:36	wmealing_	at least thats what you THINK
11:39	chouser	magopian: oh, yeah. I wonder how that happened...
11:39	jsabeaudry	M-4 ( in paredit will wrap the next 4 sexps, is there a fast way to wrap all sexps besides M-9 M-9 M-9 M-9 ( ?
11:41	ejackson	jsabeaudry: hold down slurpage until its done
11:41	ejackson	?
11:51	casion	M-4 ( does nothing for me :\|
11:52	zerokarmaleft	is that a shortcut for C-u 4 M-(?
12:03	bruceadams	jsabeaudry: i think you can select whatever you want to wrap, then just type (
12:09	thorbjornDX	is a lazy-seq like a python generator?
12:10	nDuff	...slightly?
12:10	thorbjornDX	okay, more different in terms of usage or implementation?
12:10	TimMc	thorbjornDX: It's like a silkworm.
12:10	antares_	Monger 1.2 is out: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/ChangeLog.md, http://clojuremongodb.info
12:11	thorbjornDX	TimMc: got it, thanks :D
12:11	nDuff	...well, there's chunking, which is something that doesn't happen in Python...
12:11	nDuff	...now, do you mean "lazy seqs" in general, or the lazy-seq function?
12:11	TimMc	You can pull a strand of silk out of it, and once it's out, it's out. You can cut off the end of the silk and throw it away if you don't want it anymore.
12:11	thorbjornDX	nDuff: the return value of the function, so the structure
12:11	casion	what a fantastic day, new contract and I finally got a pair of sandals that fit me! for the first time in my life
12:11	casion	wooo!
12:12	nDuff	...lazy seqs also do things generators don't, ie. caching prior values if there's a reference to the head.
12:12	thorbjornDX	TimMc: well, you can kind of do thtat with python generators, nDuff: yea, that's a pretty big difference
12:20	TimMc	casion: Are those good enough for walking around in the metal working rooms?
12:22	casion	TimMc: yep.
12:23	casion	I ordered them specifically so I can be barefoot, but I was skeptical they'd find my size
12:24	casion	since I have very large feet
12:24	casion	but they fit, hurrah!
12:24	casion	next step (pun intended) is I may as well try out a standing desk
12:24	casion	you guys convinced me to at least give it a go
12:25	pipeline	casion: i do the sit/stand thing man
12:25	pipeline	way better than standing exclusively
12:25	pipeline	i pace a lot so standing helps with that
12:27	zerokarmaleft	why are hammocks not part of this equation?
12:27	casion	pipeline: I walk around a lot, but I may as well try a standing workstation
12:27	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: I wasn't going to mention it because I didn't want to make you guys jealous, but I worked out of a hammock for most of yesterday afternoon.
12:28	casion	half my day is compile, go to another room to test, come back, code for an hour, repeat
12:28	casion	with the occasional 'oh shit oh shit, cut the power' moments of running
12:28	TimMc	zerokarmaleft: My physical therapist would probably give me a very disapproving look if I tried that.
12:29	casion	and sitting/standing repeatedly is pretty difficult for me given my size and physical condition
12:29	casion	so trying to stay standing is probably a reasonable idea
12:29	casion	(tall + orthostatic hypotension)
12:29	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: were you typing in the hammock or just thinking?
12:30	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: I was documenting. =)
12:30	TimMc	casion: If you get a tall chair (architect's chair?) you pretty much just bring your legs up -- your torso hardly moves vertically at all.
12:30	TimMc	I'd fall over if I got one of those, though -- I tend to lean backwards.
12:31	casion	TimMc: I've tried that… and I'm sitting in one now
12:31	casion	it's a 'normal' chair for me
12:31	casion	yet to find a taller one that'd serve me the indended purpose
12:33	zerokarmaleft	i had a college roommate that swore by his kneeling chair yet never seemed noticed that he was also constantly twisting his back to get his vertebrae aligned
12:33	casion	I have a zafu that I sit on the floor with when I know I dont have to get up for a while
12:33	casion	that I use for morning meditation anyway
12:33	casion	but it's rare that such a circumstance comes up
12:36	pipeline	i have an ergotron arm thing
12:36	pipeline	with a keyboard tray
12:36	pipeline	it goes up and down with a finger pressure
12:36	pipeline	counterweighted, like window sashes
12:36	dnolen	oof, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12176832/quicksort-in-clojure/12182450
12:37	dnolen	I like Mike Anderson, but can we please upvote the fast non-macro qsort :)
12:37	casion	pipeline: that sounds interesting
12:37	dnolen	we need to stop disseminating horrible optimization advice.
12:38	casion	that is some intense code wow
12:38	casion	I'll take the few extra ms thank you very much
12:54	naeg	How would you calculate all the possible diagonal winning combinations for a connect four board?
12:55	naeg	rows and cols are simple list comps, but seems cumbersome for diagonals
13:01	scriptor	naeg: another alternative is to keep track of the number of valid neighbors with each new piece
13:02	scriptor	so, when a piece drops it adds 1 to the score of each neighbor, finds the highest value, and stores that as its score
13:02	scriptor	if it's 4, there's a winner
13:03	pipeline	this is a project euler problem btw
13:04	ejackson	naeg: sounds like a good example with which to try out core.logic
13:05	naeg	scriptor: the algorithm I chose to check for a winner is to store all winning combinations in a hash (there are 69 in total), then on each turn pull out those combinations of which the new coordinate is part of
13:07	naeg	ejackson: for the whole algorithm to check for a winner or to generate the diagonal winning combinations for that hash solution?
13:07	ejackson	the whole algo
13:07	scriptor	naeg: can't you go through each combination and check if any of them have 4 of the same color?
13:07	scriptor	(each relevant combination, that is)
13:08	ejackson	you have a data structure, and some rules that define what a winner looks like, should be doable in core.logic
13:08	naeg	scriptor: that's what I'm doing?
13:08	uvtc	scriptor: that's the brute-force method, I think.
13:08	uvtc	(scriptor: I mean the method you just mentioned.)
13:09	naeg	scriptor: e.g. new coin at (0 0) - go through all pre-stored winning combinations which contain (0 0) and see whether there are four of that new coin in any of those combinations
13:09	S11001001	thorbjornDX: as a heavy user of clojure lazyseqs and python generators, I can attest that nDuff's difference makes the former radically more usable
13:09	naeg	the max. of possible winning combinations for a new coin is 12 - on the corners its much less
13:10	scriptor	naeg: where does the diagonal issue come in? I'm picturing each combination being just a list of positions that you can just reduce over, so maybe something like [(0 0) (1 1) (2 2) (3 3)]
13:11	scriptor	uvtc: wouldn't the brute force solution be check every combination in the entire board with each new coin?
13:12	naeg	scriptor: those are the winning combinations for the rows and columns: http://bpaste.net/show/nkTgFlu8ntchnfLlRcqJ/
13:12	uvtc	scriptor: Right. Sorry, I wasn't reading closely enough. I think the brute force method is to just check the entire board after every move, and check for a winner.
13:12	naeg	45 in total, now i need the 24 diagonal winning combinations
13:12	naeg	not as easy to express with a list comp as rows/cols
13:12	scriptor	naeg: ah, so you're asking about generating the combinations in the first place, got it
13:13	casion	naeg: are you generating combonations or winning positions?
13:13	naeg	yeah, exactly ;)
13:13	TimMc	naeg: To get all descending diagonals, take all positions but the last 3 columns and rows and make diagonals from those.
13:13	TimMc	Same for ascending.
13:13	casion	if you're trying to get the winning positions, process the playing board 12 blocks of 4
13:13	TimMc	THat is, those are the starting positions for the diags.
13:14	casion	you only have 4 columns and 3 rows where a diagonal win can take place
13:14	casion	^ starting position for a 4x4 set
13:14	naeg	good idea TimMc - first calculate only the starting positions of the diagonals
13:14	scriptor	uvtc: yep, mine is more of a count as you go along method, you just need to go through the neighbors once for each new coin
13:16	naeg	casion: not sure, did you mean the same?
13:16	casion	naeg: I believe so
13:16	Sgeo	Can I unforce a delay somehow? As in, make it revert to being a computation to do in the future?
13:17	casion	naeg: I'm saying just start at the upper left corner and process in blocks of 4 against 2 sets of winning diagonals
13:17	naeg	I'm still curious about what I could do with core.logic as ejackson suggested. With core.logic I can do almost the same as with Prolog, right?
13:17	casion	then you only have to 'check' 12 blocks
13:18	casion	naeg: it's worth noting that if 'you' are the second move, there's winning positions that will not occur
13:19	casion	because the opponent will win with the prior move
13:19	naeg	casion: I guess it would not be worth fiddling them out, would it?
13:20	naeg	max. possible winning combinations are 12 and much less in most cases
13:20	casion	naeg: if you have the first move, you can force a win anyway...
13:21	casion	so it kind of depends on your goal :)
13:21	naeg	casion: afaik not. the second player, if he's playing perfectly, can make a draw
13:21	casion	naeg: nope
13:21	casion	first player can always force a win
13:21	naeg	are you 100% sure?
13:21	casion	if he desires
13:21	casion	yes
13:22	naeg	I thought if both play perfect it's a draw
13:22	casion	http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/c4.html
13:23	casion	writing a connect four game really only involves writing the portion that plays second player
13:23	casion	first player is trivial
13:24	naeg	I know about victor allis thesis, but a year pasted since I looked into it the last time
13:24	naeg	I plan to implement a minimax algo
13:26	casion	minimax for a game where player one's best move is always max eval is a bit silly
13:26	casion	and secong player's best move, is at best 0.00
13:30	naeg	casion: doesn't victor allis write about the minimax in his thesis too? (but only considering meaningful branches of the tree)
13:30	casion	I don't recall
13:30	casion	I thought he generated a table base
13:30	naeg	I just remembered, I might confuse a few things with this one: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/eclip5e/classes/csu520/index.html
13:30	naeg	they use minimax with alpha beta pruning
13:31	casion	it'd be a good exercise perhaps
13:31	casion	but not exactly 'useful'
13:32	naeg	I probably have to dig deeper again before implementing the AI, doesn't matter for now anyway. I might come back to you, if you're interested and having time
13:32	casion	sure
13:44	thorbjornDX	S11001001: that makes sense. Whenever I have wanted to use and reuse a python generator, I end up just storing it in a python list/tuple/dict, so there's another layer there
13:52	lynaghk`	ping: ohpauleez
13:53	ohpauleez	lynaghk: pong
13:54	S11001001	thorbjornDX: and that's error-prone as well
13:55	S11001001	thorbjornDX: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~scompall/+junk/autoconflate--mainline/view/head:/autoconflate/configure.py#L38 :)
13:58	naeg	is there a replacement for: (fn [loc] [(inc (loc 0)) (inc (loc 1))])
13:59	S11001001	naeg: mapv inc
13:59	naeg	didn't know about mapv, thanks
14:00	scriptor	,(mapv inc [0 1])
14:00	amalloy	that works only if we're assuming loc is a vector of exactly two elements, right?
14:00	clojurebot	[1 2]
14:00	naeg	amalloy: yes, it is
14:00	Frozenlock	Is there way to obtain the last known focus in cljs?
14:01	abalone	,(mapv inc [4 3 2 1)]
14:01	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
14:01	abalone	sigh
14:01	S11001001	I also learned about mapv here not too long ago; it's the circle of #clojure
14:01	abalone	you know what i mean
14:01	abalone	,(mapv inc [4 3 2 1])
14:01	clojurebot	[5 4 3 2]
14:02	metellus	,(map inc [4 3 2 1])
14:02	clojurebot	(5 4 3 2)
14:02	S11001001	,(-> [1 2] reversed reversed class)
14:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reversed in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:03	abalone	amalloy: may i ask, what is the concern?
14:04	S11001001	,(-> [1 2] rseq rseq class)
14:04	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pr-str in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:04	amalloy	huh?
14:04	abalone	"that works only if we're assuming loc is a vector of exactly two elements, right?"
14:04	metellus	the vector returned by mapv will have the same number of elements as loc
14:05	metellus	but the question only cared about the first two elements in loc
14:05	abalone	ah. right
14:05	amalloy	(mapv inc loc) is not a correct improvement of that function if: loc has five elements but it's intended to use only the first two; or loc is a map with keys 0 and 1; or loc is (fn [x] (case x 0 'foo 1 'bar))
14:05	S11001001	I guessed what naeg meant
14:09	naeg	and you were right
14:09	amalloy	yes indeed, it's a guess that's quite likely to be right. i just wanted to make sure it was clear what we were assuming
14:19	ro_st	ohpauleez: ping
14:26	ro_st	ohpauleez: i'm unable to resolve shoreleave-*-0.2.2-SNAPSHOT when doing lein deps
14:36	shaungilchrist	what ever happened to incanter?
14:36	samnardoni	What's the best way to go from: [ [:a :b :c] [:d] [:e :f] ] to {:a 0 :b 0 :c 0 :d 1 :e 2 :f 2} (ie
14:37	samnardoni	i.e., go from vector of vectors to map of inner elements to the index of their outer element... (if that makes any sense)
14:37	`fogus	shaungilchrist: It still out there no?
14:38	shaungilchrist	yep for sure I just heard it was not being actively developed?
14:38	shaungilchrist	I wonder if thatis that just because it has reached a stable/useable state?
14:38	ro_st	netiher is 'ls' but you use that, don't you? -grin-
14:38	`fogus	If I recall a group of devs in the UK were pushing fixes and updates
14:38	`fogus	shaungilchrist: ^^
14:39	samnardoni	I have: (apply hash-map (flatten (map-indexed (fn [i x] (map (fn [z] [z i]) x)) y))) gives the correct result, but doesn't seem like the best way to do it
14:39	amalloy	~flatten
14:39	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
14:40	ro_st	quietly refactors flatten out of his code
14:42	naeg	How to get from [0 0] to [0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3]? trying around with mapv and dotimes, but that doesn't work
14:43	chouser	,(apply merge (map-indexed #(zipmap %2 (repeat %1)) [[:a :b :c] [:d] [:e :f]]))
14:43	clojurebot	{:e 2, :f 2, :d 1, :c 0, :b 0, ...}
14:43	shaungilchrist	samnardoni: (let [flat-keys (flatten [[:a :b] [:c :d]])] (zipmap flat-keys (repeat (count flat-keys) 0)))
14:44	amalloy	oh, i like chouser's. another approach is at https://gist.github.com/3516903
14:45	chouser	I should have used reduce
14:46	SegFaultAX\|work2	I'm having trouble getting started on this in Clojure: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/84
14:46	SegFaultAX\|work2	I have a working Python version, but I can't get my head around a Clojure solution.
14:47	chouser	naeg: do you want (for [a (range 4)] [a a]) ?
14:48	amalloy	chouser: any time to look at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-865 again? trying to see if i can get this screened while relevance is still in an accepting mood
14:48	naeg	chouser: oh, nope. it's not that regular. it could be [1 0] => [1 0] [2 1] [3 2] [4 3]
14:48	ro_st	anyone using datomic in production, or working towards doing so?
14:48	amalloy	&(take 4 (iterate (partial mapv inc) [0 0]))
14:48	lazybot	⇒ ([0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
14:49	shaungilchrist	ro_st: working towards doing so - licensing is trickiest aspect for us
14:49	naeg	I tired with iterate too, but didn't think of partial! thanks amalloy
14:50	ro_st	shaungilchrist: for me too. i can't gauge how much scale i can actually accomplish with the free version
14:51	ro_st	i very much want to use it. is everything rhickey and stu halloway talk about in their talks in Datomic as it stands now?
14:51	shaungilchrist	ro_st: for us it is determining how to include licensing cost in product cost when currently they utilize mssql which the customers usually have license for
14:52	ro_st	ah. for us it's 'merely' a matter of affording it. we plan to use heroku when we scale past our current custom-built vps. can't use datomic free on there.
14:55	ro_st	seems to be little in the way of how to actually use it with clojure on the web
14:56	stuarthalloway	seancorfield: you around?
14:56	ro_st	oh, look, one of datomic's creators
14:58	ro_st	stuarthalloway: is there a getting-started-with-clojure-and-datomic resource you can point me to?
14:58	stuarthalloway	ro_st: if you follow the tutorial (http://docs.datomic.com/tutorial.html), it is in Java, as you probably noticed
14:59	ro_st	yup, just been scanning through it now
14:59	stuarthalloway	but, there is a samples/seattle/getting-started.clj in the distro that covers the same stuff
15:00	stuarthalloway	and can be evaluated within a REPL launched via bin/repl in the distro
15:00	ro_st	oh, super
15:00	ro_st	thanks
15:01	ro_st	if i were to start with Free, is it obvious how to integrate the storage side into the rest of our stuff, i.t.o. database backup and restore? also, i'm guessing Free is not usable with Heroku, which we plan to use
15:03	stuarthalloway	ro_st: Datomic currently has command-line backup and restore: http://docs.datomic.com/backup.html
15:03	stuarthalloway	you should be able to make everything work with Heroku, so long as you can define a trusted network boundary, and have the peers and transactor inside that boundary
15:04	stuarthalloway	I think several people on the mailing list (datomic@googlegroups.com) are working with Datomic in Heroku, if you plan on going that way you may want to vet the Heroku specifics there
15:04	ro_st	where would the transactor store its data, given that H has ephemerial slug storage?
15:05	stuarthalloway	I think people have deemed that ephemeral storage, plus an hourly call to backup, as sufficient for their needs
15:05	ro_st	interesting!
15:05	hiredman	you may not be able to run the transactor in heroku, unless heroku provides it as a service or whatever
15:05	ro_st	i'll trawl the list for more. thanks
15:06	hiredman	since don't they tend to migrate processes and such?
15:06	ro_st	rich is a great salesman for datomic :-)
15:07	ro_st	well, a great salesman for values.
15:08	Sgeo	Is there a convenient way to play with clojars from the REPL?
15:08	Sgeo	Without needing to make a project?
15:09	Sgeo	Something similar to quicklisp's quickload
15:09	cemerick	Sgeo: see pomegranate
15:10	Sgeo	Made by you
15:10	Sgeo	Is this going to happen in every language, where there are a few famous creators whose work everyone else relies on?
15:10	Sgeo	And they're in the IRC channel too
15:10	ro_st	'grats on 1.0 for friend, cemerick!
15:10	Sgeo	I don't know why it makes me so uneasy
15:11	hiredman	b
15:11	clojurebot	B is C
15:11	cemerick	ro_st: no, no, no, 0.1.0 :-)
15:11	ro_st	Sgeo: on the contrary, it makes me much more at ease. i can talk to them!
15:11	ro_st	aren't leading zeros silent? -grin-
15:11	casion	Sgeo: this isn't a proprietary environment
15:11	Sgeo	It makes me think Clojure's bus factor is small
15:11	casion	if someone disappears there's always someone eles
15:11	casion	else*
15:12	`fogus	Sgeo: Not as small as 4 years ago
15:12	cemerick	what `fogus said
15:13	cemerick	ro_st: for these reasons (and others), I do what I can to choose stuff built by people that are accessible; irc > ML > twitter, but random libraries thrown over the wall does make me uneasy.
15:14	ro_st	sure. one has to be critical of what one allows inside the walls
15:14	`fogus	(inc cemerick)
15:14	lazybot	⇒ 9
15:14	naeg	this is how I finally managed to calculate all winning combinations of connect four: http://bpaste.net/show/91gVR4DXl2DiTs1VjmgH/
15:15	ro_st	what i like about OSS in general is that you're using code that solved somebody's problem, rather than something someone made cos they think it's pretty
15:15	naeg	would be great if someone could take a look and tell me whether that's fine (rly unsure about how i put them all together)
15:16	Sgeo	ro_st, what if my problem is that everyone else's code isn't pretty enough, so I make something because I think it's pretty?
15:17	ro_st	i'll accuse you of being a pedant -grin-
15:17	Sgeo	I should probably test my fork of the monad stuff
15:17	casion	naeg: wouldnt ([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [0 3]) be a winning column?
15:17	ro_st	and an engineer
15:17	cemerick	"pretty" is always a big factor in any case. That's why every language has 40 different database abstractions.
15:18	cemerick	Well, 4 maybe, but whatever.
15:18	naeg	casion: sure?
15:18	chouser	ro_st: not as complimentary as "a gentleman and a scholar", but "a engineer and a pedant" is probably more often accurate.
15:18	casion	naeg: that's what is generated by rows, I think it maybe mislabled?
15:18	`fogus	sounds redundant to me
15:18	casion	it confused me for a sec at least
15:18	chouser	`fogus: :-)
15:19	amalloy	naeg: (apply concat (for [x foo] (for [y bar] baz))) is (for [x foo, y bar] baz)
15:19	Sgeo	I am also annoyed that the more common monad library on Clojure does the Maybe monad wrongly
15:20	chouser	Sgeo: see also http://www.clojure.net/2012/06/03/Monad-Protocols/
15:20	samrat	how do I turn off debug mode in Noir? (to avoid the stacktraces showing up)
15:20	amalloy	casion: a common representation for coordinates in board games on a computer is [y x], where 0 0 is top-left corner. in that context what you asked about is a row
15:20	naeg	casion: nope, your coords are a winning row - it's [y x]
15:21	ro_st	chouser, `fogus :-) that's the spirit in which it was… awarded
15:21	Sgeo	chouser, I'm pretty sure that doesn't do Applicative and Functor properly either
15:21	Sgeo	But it does fix some of my issues with the other one
15:22	ro_st	samrat: env LEIN_NO_DEV=true or something like that
15:22	naeg	amalloy: but it's a 3-times nested for?
15:22	casion	hmm, I don't think I've ever explicitely seen [y x] for a board represetation
15:22	xeqi	samrat: change :mode you start the server with
15:22	ro_st	weavejester told me, i can't remember the right name
15:22	weavejester	ro_st: You got it right
15:23	Sgeo	But the fact that it uses protocols instead of generic methods might make it harder to _fix_ my problems with the approach
15:23	weavejester	In Lein2 profiles can be used instead of that variable
15:25	ro_st	ohpauleez: you around? shoreleave 0.2.2-SNAPSHOT has done a runner
15:25	ro_st	thanks for the confirm, weavejester!
15:26	naeg	amalloy: oh, you meant that one at the diagonals - that's right, sorry
15:26	amalloy	chouser: that's pretty cool. i think his suggestion that it's easy to make hash-map a monad is a little off, though - there's no good way to implement bind; i don't think haskell has a monad instance for Data.Map
15:30	naeg	amalloy: also, the last let with a let in the bindings itself does only look weird to me as a newbie?
15:33	jsabeaudry	Why is clojuredocs.org trolling me? (Trying searching for "str" "def" "ns"...)
15:34	dakrone	jsabeaudry: type it into the search box but don't press enter and select it from the suggestions
15:34	dakrone	the search is a little wonky
15:34	scriptor	jsabeaudry: it's better to use the js drop-down that clojuredocs gives you in the search box
15:34	scriptor	yea, I don't understand why it doesn't sort the main results in the same way the autocomplete is sorted
15:35	jsabeaudry	ah that is how that tool works, thanks for the info
15:36	Sgeo	amalloy, the reason Haskell doesn't have a Monad instance for Data.Map is because the type of bind would need to indicate that the keys are orderable
15:38	goodieboy	is there a way to make "take", return values but using the same collection type that was passed in? For example, (take 3 [1 2 3 4 5]) returns a list. I have a function that uses take, and sometimes lists are passed in, sometimes vectors are passed in. I want the same type returned.
15:39	ro_st	interesting question
15:39	nz-	,(into [] (take 3 [1 2 3 4 5]))
15:39	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
15:39	ro_st	nz, i think he's saying that his fn doesn't necessarily know which type it'll be
15:39	dnolen	goodieboy: no, sequence fns always return sequences.
15:40	goodieboy	exactly, i don't know what type
15:40	llasram	&((fn my-take [n coll] (into (empty coll) (take n coll))) [1 2 3 4 5])
15:40	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox65663$eval77151$my-take
15:40	goodieboy	dnolen: ok thanks
15:40	llasram	&((fn my-take [n coll] (into (empty coll) (take n coll))) 3 [1 2 3 4 5])
15:40	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
15:40	goodieboy	ahh
15:40	llasram	But, why?
15:40	ro_st	dnolen: your tweets are very diverting. my reading list grows every day!
15:40	nz-	ro_st: you could build that functionality if know how to get empty version of paramereter vector/list
15:41	nz-	,(doc empty)
15:41	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil"
15:41	Sgeo	,(doc into)
15:41	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
15:41	jkkramer	except… ##((fn my-take [n coll] (into (empty coll) (take n coll))) 3 '(1 2 3 4))
15:41	lazybot	⇒ (3 2 1)
15:41	nz-	,(into (empty [1 2 3 4 5]) (take 3 [1 2 3 4 5]))
15:41	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
15:41	Sgeo	&(into '() [1 2 3])
15:41	lazybot	⇒ (3 2 1)
15:41	ro_st	neeeaaat!
15:41	dnolen	ro_st: haha, I'm way behind too, I fear I will never actually catch up.
15:42	dnolen	Raynes: did you ever try that Node.js CLJS fix?
15:43	ro_st	nz, sgeo: very cool
15:43	ro_st	simple, but very cool!
15:43	Sgeo	amalloy, hmm, didn't think that through, I should have said set... I think?
15:44	amalloy	Sgeo: haskell can't have a monad instance for Map k v, because the type constructor takes two types
15:45	amalloy	but i think it also can't have a monad instance, even for Map Int v, because there's no good way to implement: Map Int v `bind` (v -> Map Int v) :: Map Int v
15:45	Sgeo	I should think about how to implement the reverse state monad
15:46	Sgeo	It might be easier to ask whether join can be implemented, since that's the same question but may be easier to understand.
15:47	Sgeo	Joining a Map Int (Map Int v) into a Map Int v
15:48	amalloy	right, that's the same problem as bind
15:48	ordnungswidrig	dnolen: i skimmed over oz on fd today. this is great stuff. Can you elaborate how kanren is related to oz? Or is it an independent implementation of logic programming?
15:49	jsabeaudry	Ah, too bad CLJ-107 never made it
15:49	jsabeaudry	seems like most reasonable to me
15:50	Sgeo	amalloy, there's definitely a function of that type. But I have a feeling that it wouldn't obey the monadic laws with a join defined like that
15:52	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: Mozart/OZ was initiated by Peter Van Roy and other folks - Van Roy worked on Aquarius Prolog, an experiment to see if Prolog could possibly compete w/ lower level languages like C.
15:52	dnolen_	kind like the Orbit Scheme of the Prolog world
15:53	dnolen_	Mozart/OZ tries to implement enough functionality to simulate all the paradigms - including logic programming.
15:53	ordnungswidrig	so the algorithms of how to solve the logic problem is implementet as a mozart/oz program?
15:53	dnolen_	logic programming of course presents many performance issues - one of those being search. So constraints have long been a research topic in the LP community.
15:54	abalone	is this a good way to end up with a flattened collection of results? (reduce concat (map some-fn some-list))
15:54	ordnungswidrig	that means that one you use this to optimize how core.logic searches for solutions?
15:54	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: well Mozart/OZ has a design which makes it easy to express logic programming and a bunch of other things.
15:54	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: no, Moart/OZ itself is written in C.
15:55	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: but the series of events occurred w/ miniKanren.
15:55	llasram	abalone: (apply concat ...) is probably better
15:55	ivaraasen	dnolen_: one of my courses next semester is all Mozart/OZ. seems like a pretty cool language, albeit slow
15:55	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: Oleg & Dan Friedman wanted to see if they could get something as fast as SWI in Scheme (and note that SWI is not the fastest Prolog)
15:55	Sgeo	,(doc mapcat)
15:55	clojurebot	"([f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection."
15:56	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: they succeeded, but of course they discovered Prolog is not that great for many kinds of problems, so they started exploring CLP.
15:56	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: ok, you got me wrong. I thought of the algorithms how fd constraint programming is _implemented_ in oz. and if this can be "mixed into" core.logic
15:56	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: the real difference here is that miniKanren is a purely functional implementation of LP, which eliminates many difficulties of lower level implementation.
15:56	llasram	Sgeo, abalone: Oops, I only read so far as (reduce concat ...) didn't even see the rest. Agree for the specific case of (apply concat (map ...)), def just -> (mapcat ..)
15:57	Sgeo	,(mapcat (fn [x] (vector x (+ 1 x)) [1 2 3 4 5])
15:57	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:57	Sgeo	,(mapcat (fn [x] (vector x (+ 1 x)) [1 2 3 4 5]))
15:57	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map>
15:57	Sgeo	,(mapcat (fn [x] (vector x (+ 1 x))) [1 2 3 4 5])
15:57	clojurebot	(1 2 2 3 3 ...)
15:57	abalone	Sgeo, llasram: thanks! mapcat does seem to be exactly what i want... but why was apply concat better than reduce concat?
15:57	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: so assuming there was an implementation like FD/CLP for OZ in clojure, this could substitute core.logic?
15:58	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: there's no need really. Mozart/OZ implementation does a lot of work (i imagine in C). We have CLP in cKanren, but the approach is different since we're working in a functional context.
15:58	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: I think you're missing what I'm saying :) we have CLP(FD) in core.logic today
15:58	Sgeo	Am I allowed to find it amusing that there's a core.logic discussion occurring concurrently and separately with/from a mapcat discussion?
15:58	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: I know, but the "solver" works differently that CLP(FD) in OZ, right?
15:58	Sgeo	Because they're secretly related.
15:59	emezeske	abalone: (apply concat ...) will call concat once, wheras (reduce concat ...) will call concat a bunch of times
15:59	abalone	no secrets please. i want to know everything
15:59	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: yes, but I'm not sure how that's relevant.
15:59	llasram	abalone: (reduce concat ...) will call 'concat' once for each item in the input sequence, vs (apply concat ...) just calling concat once with the sequence of all the arguments
15:59	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: beyond comparing the approaches of course.
15:59	emezeske	llasram: jinx
15:59	ordnungswidrig	Sgeo: shh, you're disrupting the entanglement!
15:59	llasram	man, I type too slow emezeske :-p
15:59	emezeske	llasram: ^_^
16:00	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: I got the impression that the concept of distributors is what make oz more powerful than core.logic (for now)
16:00	S11001001	abalone: moreover it will call concat a bunch of times in the wrong direction
16:00	abalone	emezeske Sgeo llasram: ah thanks! man, so much help around here, i'm afraid i'm going to forget to thank someone
16:01	S11001001	(using concat iteratively is unsafe in general)
16:01	abalone	S11001001: thanks :-P hm. ah.
16:01	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: right. You can't customize the strategy.
16:02	Sgeo	I should totally make a newtype library
16:02	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: I remember from like 15 years ago, that you need to manually cut in prolog. so I suppose beyond being declarative there is the need to tune the "how-to-solve" as well.
16:03	Sgeo	...or not, that is a bit silly
16:04	Sgeo	WHY are things like deref working on IDeref not documented outside of the source?
16:04	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: being able to define the strategy seems powerful but I don't yet understand all the performance implications nor the complexity for consumers of such an interface.
16:04	jimduey	Sgeo: Konrad talks about the probability monad dist-m here
16:04	jimduey	http://onclojure.com/2009/04/24/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-4/
16:05	Sgeo	Oh hey jimduey
16:05	jimduey	It uses a hash-map as its container value.
16:05	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: so it's not on the table in the near term for core.logic. unless of course someone else wants to take that on.
16:05	jimduey	hey.
16:05	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: I have next to no knowledge of kanren, so I trust you regarding this.
16:05	Sgeo	Did you see my fork of ... I guess Konrad's monad stuff?
16:05	jimduey	nope. been buried
16:05	Sgeo	(It's just m-lift as a function that doesn't need to know how many arguments)
16:06	ordnungswidrig	there will the day that I'll read the little schemer
16:06	Sgeo	Although I haven't tested it
16:06	jimduey	ordnungswidrig: you definitely should. great read, deep code. and all the authors are going to be at Strangeloop next month. :)
16:07	Sgeo	https://github.com/Sgeo/algo.monads/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/algo/monads.clj#L270
16:07	ordnungswidrig	jimduey: between strangeloop and me is a whole ocean
16:07	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: it may in fact be simple to do, cKanren has a critical step called force-ans. distributors are all about controlling which possibilities are considered first.
16:07	Sgeo	Please tell me m-seq returns a monadic value representing a sequence, because that's what I assumed
16:07	dnolen_	force-ans does this work, but it's naive.
16:08	ivaraasen	I wish I had the money to go to CUFP this year
16:08	ordnungswidrig	dnolen_: I supposed that there must be some kind of "branch-logic" at some point. bread vs. deep, picking an element etc.
16:09	Sgeo	jimduey, anyway, it should be possible to define Functors and Applicatives separately from Monads, and I'm disappointed that the libraries I've seen don't allow for that
16:09	ordnungswidrig	. o O ( when will github fix syntax highlighting for @ in clojure code ? )
16:13	Frozenlock	I've make dynamic shortcut handling for cljs (kinda like emacs) heavily inspired by https://github.com/AndreasKostler/dyscord. However I'm able to differentiate between local and global shortcut. I would like to offer to possibility to show the key-sequences on screen in a friendly manner (not the log). Any suggestion on how I could do this?
16:15	jimduey	Sgeo: I
16:15	shaungilchrist	Frozenlock - you mean like a growl-like approach perhaps?
16:15	Frozenlock	What's growl-like?
16:15	Frozenlock	RaaaaAAAAr? :P
16:15	shaungilchrist	where the notifications "stack" in what ever corner (usually top right)
16:16	shaungilchrist	and slowly fade out or close on click
16:16	jimduey	Sgeo: I'm not sure the answer to your question above. Will have to go check.
16:16	dnolen_	ordnungswidrig: actually I think it will be easy. Will probably try to look into after a 0.8.0 release
16:17	Frozenlock	Hmm I'm sure... I would like to show the entire keysequences (which I have stored in an atom).
16:18	shaungilchrist	http://boedesign.com/demos/gritter/ is sort of what I meant
16:18	Frozenlock	shaungilchrist: Looks great!
16:19	shaungilchrist	yeah I'd set the timeout a lot quicker than what they have on the demo so they sort of bubble up and fade quickly to not be too distracting
16:20	Frozenlock	Indeed. Or I would just discard them once the key sequence is completed.
16:21	Frozenlock	Oh it's jquery :(
16:21	amalloy	jimduey: did you notice the remark about Map not having a good monad instance? seems like a bad idea to mention it in the blog post
16:21	shaungilchrist	it would be sort of cool to have a key sequence auto complete where it shows the other "branches" you can go from your current key combo
16:21	Frozenlock	shaungilchrist: Woah, wait I need to complete the basics before :p
16:21	shaungilchrist	frozenlock: it would not be difficult to implement from scratch using enfocus or what not
16:23	Frozenlock	Well at this point I could just build it on top of Domina; that's what I'm already using. I'll just make a quick check for "growl" now that I know it's what I'm lookign for.
16:23	Frozenlock	shaungilchrist: Thanks :)
16:23	jml	is there a way to see the source code for a class that gen-class makes?
16:23	shaungilchrist	google domina
16:23	shaungilchrist	I have not seen that
16:23	Frozenlock	https://github.com/levand/domina
16:24	jml	I'd like to understand what's going on better
16:24	amalloy	jml: it doesn't generate (java) source code at all. jvm bytecodes
16:24	amalloy	you can disassemble the .class file
16:25	abalone	"no disassemble!"
16:25	Raynes	need inpuuuuuut
16:25	abalone	haha
16:25	Raynes	abalone: <3
16:26	Raynes	Short Circuit fans, unite!
16:26	Raynes	Form of, cute robot!
16:26	Sgeo	...I heard "no disassemble" in a Lemon Demon song
16:27	gtrak	huh, 'not' is a function, how about that
16:27	ohpauleez	If you pinged me in the last hour or so, I missed it
16:27	Raynes	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Circuit for reference
16:27	abalone	is it surprising that not is a fn?
16:27	Raynes	ohpauleez: Oh thank God, we all though you had died.
16:28	ohpauleez	Raynes: haha
16:28	gtrak	a little, though not when I think about it
16:28	Raynes	$clojuredocs not
16:28	lazybot	clojure.core/if-not: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1537; clojure.core/not=: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1530; clojure.contrib.monads/m-when-not: http://clojuredocs.org/v/771; clojure.contrib.except/throw-if-not: http://clojuredocs.org/v/296; clojure.contrib.error-kit/do-not-handle: http://clojuredocs.org/v/289
16:28	Sgeo	Ah, so the Lemon Demon song makes a Short Circuit reference
16:28	Raynes	Good work finding every function except the one I asked for, lazybot
16:28	gtrak	heh, see?
16:28	gtrak	even lazybot is surprised
16:28	Sgeo	I mean, it said "Have they forgotten Johnny 5", but didn't know that Johnny 5 was from a film called Short Circuit
16:29	Sgeo	It's Clojuredocs. Don't expect sane sorting.
16:29	jimduey	amalloy: I saw that. I think you can have a monad that uses a hash-map as its container. The bind would determine what kind of monad it would be.
16:29	jml	"Since the implementations of the methods of the generated class occur in Clojure functions, they have no access to the inherited protected fields of the superclass." ah, that's the badger.
16:29	jimduey	For instance, a probability monad could be built that way.
16:30	amalloy	jimduey: yes, but nobody should do it that way because you can only have one monad using a hashmap as its container
16:30	amalloy	plus it wouldn't work on an array-map
16:30	Sgeo	..Oh, "container" as in...
16:31	Sgeo	I think I see
16:31	Sgeo	What you'd do instead of using a data declaration in Haskell
16:31	jimduey	amalloy: Precisely the reason I didn't include one in.
16:32	jimduey	Sgeo: I'm not familiar with the data declaration.
16:32	naeg	How can I iterate over only those items of coll which pass a certain test?
16:32	naeg	thought some would do it, but not really
16:32	Sgeo	jimduey, it's how you make a type in Haskell.
16:33	Sgeo	data MyType = ConOne String Int \| ConTwo [String]
16:33	jkkramer	naeg: filter
16:33	Sgeo	Examples of MyTypes: ConOne "Hello" 5
16:34	Sgeo	ConTwo ["Hello", "Goodbye"]
16:34	naeg	jkkramer: facepalm oh yeah
16:34	naeg	thanks
16:34	jimduey	Sgeo: I don't think you need that in clojure
16:34	Sgeo	Yeah, you could use a map, with maybe a :con key
16:35	Sgeo	I think you did Maybe correctly, so for reference, here is Maybe in Haskell:
16:35	Sgeo	data Maybe a = Nothing \| Just a
16:35	Sgeo	(modulo some deriving clauses)
16:45	Sgeo	jimduey, you know what I should do? Write a macro that takes a join function and expands into code to implement a monad
16:46	Sgeo	(Or maybe just takes a join function and a return function and gives a bind function.)
16:46	Sgeo	For some monads, it's probably easier to write join than bind
16:46	jimduey	Sgeo: possibly. that could be pretty easy with protocol monads.
16:47	amalloy	Sgeo: why would it be a macro? make it a function, right?
16:48	Sgeo	amalloy, yeah, that makes more sense
16:56	Frozenlock	Is there something in leiningen to rename a project?
16:56	bonega	Hi, could someone explain why I would do a var quote in this situation?
16:57	bonega	(defn animation [x]
16:57	bonega	(when running
16:57	bonega	(send-off agent #'animation))
16:57	bonega	(Thread/sleep animation-sleep-ms)
16:57	bonega	(.repaint @panel)
16:57	bonega	nil)
16:57	jeremyheiler	Frozenlock: What would you expect it to do? Change the namespaces in the clj files?
16:58	casion	bonega: https://www.refheap.com/paste is your friend
16:58	Frozenlock	jeremyheiler: Well yeah, I'm sure I would mess up something doing it by hand. :P
16:58	ChongLi	is there a clojure equivalent to haskell's zipWith
16:58	ChongLi	?
16:58	amalloy	~zip
16:58	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
16:58	ChongLi	oh, cool
16:59	ChongLi	wait, that's not the same as zipWith
16:59	amalloy	yes it is
16:59	dnolen_	,(map +[1 2 3] [3 2 1])
16:59	clojurebot	(4 4 4)
16:59	bonega	casion: thanks. Here it is https://www.refheap.com/paste/6359d295337d9ef7da4682e67
16:59	ChongLi	oh, okay
16:59	ChongLi	duh :)
16:59	ChongLi	thanks
16:59	Sgeo	Prelude zipWith :: (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
17:00	amalloy	(map list a b) ~= zipWith (,) a b
17:00	Sgeo	I want to :/ at the confluencing of list with (,) but meh
17:03	casion	bonega: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5964997/clojure-agent-question-using-send-off
17:03	jeremyheiler	Frozenlock: So really you want a "change all namespaces" tool? lol
17:06	Sgeo	:/ at that
17:06	Sgeo	So it's not so easy to change code at the REPL unless you're careful?
17:08	S11001001	Sgeo: s,you're careful,you write idiomatic clojure and occasionally toss in #' at your shims,
17:08	Sgeo	shims?
17:08	S11001001	the borders between whatever execution framework you're using and your actually-doing-stuff code
17:09	S11001001	likewise, there are for most simple macros two macro implementing strategies
17:09	S11001001	one that just pours everything into the expansion, and the other which factors as much as reasonable out to a function
17:10	S11001001	the latter is easier to debug and means you have cascading reloads less often (as you're more likely to have to change just a function instead of a macro, triggering recompile of all its users)
17:11	Sgeo	Wait, "triggering recompile".... if I redefine a macro at a REPL, will its users be ... modified, or would I manually have to recompile them?
17:11	S11001001	latter
17:12	Sgeo	Ah, ok
17:12	Sgeo	Former would be kind of cool
17:12	S11001001	sure, but it would complicate the compiler, and serves as a good canary right now
17:12	S11001001	if you are changing macros too often, time to factor parts of them into functions you can manipulate without a reload cascade
17:13	bonega	Casion: thanks, but I still don't understand
17:13	bonega	if I change the definition of animation and evaluate it I still see the changes regardless of var quote
17:16	S11001001	bonega: ah, that might be a clj1.2 vs 1.3 thing
17:16	S11001001	bonega: for that particular example #' would have been needed pre-1.3
17:17	bonega	I see, how confusing :D
17:17	Sgeo	Why is so much Clojure stuff undocumented?
17:17	Sgeo	As in, deref doesn't explicitely mention IDeref except in the source
17:17	shaungilchrist	keeps the magic alive
17:17	technomancy	IDeref is an implementation detail
17:18	Sgeo	:/ so I shouldn't make my own IDerefs then?
17:18	dnolen_	Sgeo: because it's only ~5 years old?
17:18	dnolen_	Sgeo: I disagree w/ technomancy - the lack of documentation around protocols is unfortunate.
17:18	technomancy	well, I'm not saying it should be an implementation detail
17:19	dnolen_	Sgeo: well, on the JVM they are interfaces - elsewhere the story is a bit better.
17:19	bonega	So, var quote should mostly be used for some weird meta-data or something? Not for code-reloading in >= 1.3?
17:20	dnolen_	Sgeo: but perhaps in some sense they are subject to change on the JVM and somewhat more considered in CLJS because hindsight is 20/20
17:21	Sgeo	dnolen_, hmm, what's the situation in CLJS?
17:21	dnolen_	Sgeo: everything is built ontop of protocols.
17:22	pjstadig	Sgeo: multimethods are nice, but usually overkill, and slow compared to protocols
17:22	S11001001	I agree with shaungilchrist; it's more fun the way it is
17:23	hiredman	multimethods can be much slower due to lock overhead
17:24	amalloy	hiredman: that patch got accepted for 1.5, i think, right?
17:24	technomancy	I sure hope so
17:25	hiredman	amalloy: I just glanced over the commits and didn't see it in
17:26	amalloy	yeah, i'm wrong. it's screened now, but not yet accepted or applied
17:35	djanatyn	are there any good clojure libraries for generating graphs and charts?
17:35	technomancy	djanatyn: I used incanter for http://lein-survey.herokuapp.com
17:35	technomancy	but it was kind of a pain
17:36	brehaut	technomancy: time to make a quil-charts lib
17:37	lynaghk	djanatyn: depends how custom you want stuff. I wrote C2 as a set of tools for building custom statistical graphics in Clojure/ClojureScript. It's not exactly a charting library though, since there's no "make me a bar chart" function or anything like that
17:37	djanatyn	I was thinking about using quil
17:37	lynaghk	djanatyn: http://keminglabs.com/c2/
17:38	djanatyn	lynaghk: that's exactly what I wanted! thank you.
17:38	lynaghk	djanatyn: C2 is only really useful for HTML/SVG output, though, so you'll need to turn to something like phantomjs if you want to rasterize on the serverside.
17:38	thorbjornDX	djanatyn: c2 is based on d3.js if you didn't know
17:38	Sgeo	" 1.1 Earmuffed Vars are No Longer Automatically Considered Dynamic
17:38	Sgeo	"
17:38	thorbjornDX	djanatyn: inspired by
17:39	Sgeo	Hmm, that could break code that was written for 1.2, right?
17:39	lynaghk	djanatyn: sure thing. Drop me a line if you have any questions about it. We use it on almost all of our projects, but I have no idea what other people are doing with it (if anything).
17:39	djanatyn	hmm. I'll try both Incanter and C2
17:40	technomancy	here's what I ended up doing with incanter: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-survey/blob/master/src/lein_survey/results.clj#L51
17:40	Sgeo	Oh, it gives warnings
17:45	nDuff	Is there a way to be within a dosync's scope during the assignment portion of a let, but not in the body (where those values are being used)?
17:45	technomancy	nDuff: you could destructure a dosync
17:45	nDuff	Ahh, that works.
17:46	nDuff	(not very pretty, but works)
17:47	amalloy	eh? what does destructure have to do with it? (let [x (dosync ...)] (...use x...))
17:47	technomancy	amalloy: if you need multiple values calculated in the same transaction
17:47	amalloy	sure
17:47	technomancy	I'm assuming if he didn't then he wouldn't be asking =)
17:48	amalloy	oh, i see. you're thinking he wants multiple things bound in the let, all in the same dosync
17:48	amalloy	which is probably correct; i didn't get it
17:48	Sgeo	Why is every-pred called every-pred and some-fn is some-fn?
17:48	Sgeo	Why not every-pred and some-pred or every-fn and some-fn?
17:49	naeg	checking connect four field: http://bpaste.net/show/7xHePXFnDd1sRTqH8uQX/
17:49	naeg	what do you think? it's quite fast imo
17:50	naeg	check-board works, but the return value is strange. () when a player won and all the possible winning combinations for given coordinates if no one won
17:50	naeg	(saying that it works is quite brave from my side, didn't test it really)
17:58	Sgeo	How do I sort the problems on 4clojure by number?
18:03	hyPiRion	,(map #(str "http://www.4clojure.com/problem/" %) (range 153))
18:03	clojurebot	("http://www.4clojure.com/problem/0" "http://www.4clojure.com/problem/1" "http://www.4clojure.com/problem/2" "http://www.4clojure.com/problem/3" "http://www.4clojure.com/problem/4" ...)
18:06	Frozenlo`	To package a cljs library, do I just need to lein uberjar as usual and send it to clojars?
18:06	amalloy	(inc hyPiRion)
18:06	lazybot	⇒ 2
18:06	amalloy	doesn't actually work though, because not every problem id is used. some problems got submitted, had ids assigned, and were declined
18:08	hiredman	seancorfield: ping
18:10	emezeske	Frozenlock: I don't think you should be putting uberjars on clojars
18:10	Frozenlock	I don't... that's just how I always compile :)
18:10	emezeske	Frozenlock: Shouldn't a regular jar be enough?
18:11	Frozenlock	Yes, uberjar gives you both. I'm just used to always getting a uberjar for my own needs.
18:11	Frozenlock	But other then that, that's the way to go?
18:11	emezeske	Frozenlock: But anyway to respond to your original question:
18:12	emezeske	Yeah, that's the way to go. In some cases, you might want lein-cljsbuild's :jar option to help with that, but I don't know if it's always necessary
18:12	emezeske	(You can always like "jar tf ..." to see if the cljs files were included as you expected)
18:13	Frozenlock	Isn't it what " :cljsbuild {:builds [{:jar true..." is for? (Really, I'm clueless here)
18:14	emezeske	Yeah, you're on the right track!
18:14	Frozenlock	Yay!
18:14	Frozenlock	Thanks!
18:14	emezeske	I'd definitely do a "jar tf" just to make sure that the cljs files were included.
18:14	emezeske	Of course there are other ways to test that...
18:15	hiredman	anyone using java.jdbc having issues with the new (post 1.3) numerics stuff?
18:17	naeg	why does this return true instead of a value for that range?
18:17	naeg	,(some #(= (get-in [[" "], [" "], [" "]] [% 0]) " ") (range 2 -1 -1))
18:17	clojurebot	true
18:18	hiredman	I think our issues are mostly around clojure.lang.BigInt vs. java.lang.BigDecimal, with java.lang.BigDecimal (as comes out of jdbc) not being = to any bigints from clojure
18:18	hiredman	naeg: read the docs on some?
18:18	hiredman	,(doc some)
18:18	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
18:19	Frozenlock	emezeske: It doesn't do the uber-cool-google-compile-thingy when wrapping in a jar?
18:19	naeg	hiredman: I thought it should return a x? like in:
18:19	naeg	,(some #{1} [0 1 2 3])
18:19	clojurebot	1
18:19	naeg	but that's because it's a set, right? hm...
18:19	emezeske	Frozenlock: So :jar true is for releasing, say, a clojurescript library that other clojurescript code will use (e.g. through requiring it)
18:20	emezeske	Frozenlock: To do :advanced compilation, all of the clojurescript source code has to be available at compile-time
18:21	naeg	correct like that?
18:21	naeg	,(some #(if (= (get-in [[" "], [" "], [" "]] [% 0]) " ") % nil) (range 2 -1 -1))
18:21	clojurebot	2
18:21	Frozenlock	Ok, so it is up to those who uses the library to compile it, correct?
18:21	Frozenlock	*use
18:21	emezeske	Yep!
18:22	Frozenlock	Excellent, thank you very much!
18:22	hiredman	naeg: you may what to consider just taking the first of a filter
18:22	emezeske	The 3rd party doesn't have to do anything special, though; if they depend on your jar, and (require ...) something from it, compilation will automatically include it
18:22	emezeske	No prob
18:23	naeg	hiredman: seems better
18:24	hyPiRion	naeg:
18:24	hyPiRion	er
18:24	hyPiRion	nvm
18:37	Frozenlock	There: https://github.com/Frozenlock/zizanie, my first clojurescript library. I intend to add more, but at least it works :-)
18:39	Frozenlock	I must say, I'm quite surprised by how well the `global-set-key' VS `local-set-key' works.
18:40	jeremyheiler	(inc Frozenlock)
18:40	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:44	Frozenlock	Now, for the notifications part, I will probably use the closure popup api. Any suggestions?
18:44	Frozenlock	(it's for showing the pending key sequences)
18:50	nz-	Frozenlock: nice
18:51	Frozenlock	Thanks. Now I just need a working in-browser repl :)
18:51	Frozenlock	For some reason I can't get Himera started.
18:59	naeg	is there a way to check whether take-while consumed the whole seq?
19:06	emezeske	naeg: I don't think so (at least not without like counting the seq or something)
19:06	Sgeo	"If you want to see every step of execution you can pass an optional third
19:06	Sgeo	argument of true to run-push."
19:06	emezeske	naeg: The implementation of take-while is super simple, though; it would be easy to make your own that told you whether it hit the end
19:06	Sgeo	Ugh, non-keyword boolean arguments are ugly
19:09	amalloy	wat. (= coll (take-while f coll))?
19:13	emezeske	amalloy: Doesn't that realize the whole seq?
19:13	goodieboy	anyone here use cheshire, the json library?
19:13	amalloy	&(= (range) (take 1 (range)))
19:13	lazybot	⇒ false
19:13	dakrone	goodieboy: yes
19:13	technomancy	pretty much everyone
19:14	emezeske	amalloy: That makes sense.
19:14	goodieboy	good! we use it in production, but discovered today that it does not escape unicode characters, which blew up our front-end. Swapping it out with clojure.data.json fixed the problem, but I'm thinking there has to be a way to do this with cheshire?
19:14	emezeske	amalloy: I guess I was picturing a huge seq where you might not want to compare the whole thing, but that isn't actually indicated in the question
19:15	emezeske	naeg: See amalloys comments above, and don't listen to me.
19:15	technomancy	goodieboy: why would you want unicode characters escaped?
19:15	technomancy	UTF-8 is part of the JSON standard
19:16	ivan	not all Unicode codepoints can be sent through all transports
19:16	hiredman	technomancy: maybe he means unicode characters encoded as something other than utf8?
19:16	technomancy	hiredman: then it's no longer json
19:17	ivan	"JSON text SHALL be encoded in Unicode. The default encoding is UTF-8."
19:17	hiredman	goodieboy: you might want to check your default file encoding
19:17	webben	Indeed. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4627#section-3
19:18	hiredman	goodieboy: although whatever method you are using to write data, clojure.data.json and cheshire should end up writing out to the same encoding
19:19	hiredman	goodieboy: anyway, I think if you find any differences, I am inclined to call whatever cheshire does as correct
19:20	hiredman	clojure.data.json has some provisions for reading hex literals, but I am pretty sure those are not part of json
19:21	Frozenlock	My google skills are proving ineffective. Is there really no notifications library for closure? :(
19:21	ivan	goodieboy wants \uxxxx
19:21	goodieboy	oops sorry, had to step away for a minute
19:22	Sgeo	What happens if I want to use a library that specifies Clojure 1.3.0 in Clojure 1.4.0?
19:23	goodieboy	ivan: yes, like this: \u2028
19:23	ivan	heh, cheshire fails to do that?
19:23	ivan	(for that codepoint)
19:23	emezeske	Sgeo: There's a good chance it will just work -- if your project specifies an explicit clojure version, that's what will be used
19:23	emezeske	Sgeo: But if the library is broken by some 1.4 change, you're in trouble
19:23	goodieboy	well, it does handle that, but the unicode (real line separator) breaks our javascript, where as the \u2028 does not
19:23	Sgeo	emezeske, but if the library's project.clj specifies a different Clojure version...
19:24	nDuff	Sgeo: Yours overrides.
19:24	nDuff	Sgeo: (in general; if version ranges are in use, things get more complicated)
19:25	ivan	goodieboy: I would file a bug for that
19:25	ivan	and maybe a bug for \uxxxx'ing all non-ascii
19:25	lotia	greetings all. Using lein2 and woking on a noir project in emacs. When I do a "lein repl" in a termainal within the noir project directory, it automatically loads in the correct namespaces.
19:25	lotia	how do i get that to work when I call nrepl-jack=in within emacs?
19:26	lotia	s/nrepl-jack=in/nreplc-jack-in/
19:26	goodieboy	ivan: ok thanks!
19:27	ivan	simplejson does ASCII output by default, and it does \u2028 right in either case
19:31	goodieboy	ivan: is \u2028 hex literal?
19:32	ivan	it's a six-character sequence with a hexadecimal unicode codepoint
19:34	dakrone	goodieboy: I can add that feature pretty easily if desired, please put a ticket in so I can do that
19:34	dakrone	(just to remind me)
19:34	ivan	man this RFC sucks
19:34	ivan	it keeps saying "character" but people transfer non-character codepoints
19:35	goodieboy	dakrone: cool thanks! i'll see if i can get that done tonight
19:35	dakrone	goodieboy: I'll try to get it done tomorrow, if not it may have to wait a couple of weeks while I'm out of the country
19:36	goodieboy	dakrone: awesome thanks! :)
20:00	dakrone	goodieboy: added in https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/commit/bacb3acb1dd0489cbf46f5a0596732383e3b4c66 , I will cut a release later tonight
20:08	jeremyheiler	Can someone help me understand why I am getting this stackplosion? https://www.refheap.com/paste/4723
20:10	hiredman	jeremyheiler: double check your mail.clj file to see it really matches what is in the paste
20:10	hiredman	main.clj
20:10	Raynes	You don't need that vector around foo.core unless you're actually going to use :refer or :as.
20:10	Raynes	I don't think that causes this particular error though.
20:11	Sgeo	Lamina pipelines remind me of monads
20:11	technomancy	it's there for loosk
20:11	technomancy	looks
20:11	Raynes	For uglies.
20:11	jeremyheiler	Yeah, I had ":as core" in there, but took it out to simplify it.
20:11	technomancy	not as much as your face
20:12	jeremyheiler	hiredman, the only thing different is that all the functions I have in those files are commented with ; at the beginning of each line.
20:12	goodieboy	dakrone: THANKS, very much appreciated
20:12	Sgeo	sigh
20:12	Sgeo	I hate map.
20:12	Sgeo	If map were sufficiently general, Lamina shouldn't need to provide a map*
20:12	Sgeo	Just define map on its channels
20:12	Sgeo	But instead, it's defined for sequences only.
20:12	ChongLi	you should try Haskell's map
20:13	ChongLi	it's defined for lists
20:13	ChongLi	and only one list at that
20:13	hiredman	jeremyheiler: are you sure you want foo.core under :main there instead of foo.main?
20:13	Sgeo	At least there's fmap
20:13	ahkurtz	fmap however is defined on almost everything
20:13	emezeske	Sgeo: Isn't there some interface that can be implemented to make something seqable?
20:13	ChongLi	yeah, it's just silly that fmap has to exist
20:13	ChongLi	because map was written so long ago
20:14	jeremyheiler	hiredman, that was a typo i made in the original paste. it really is ":main foo.main"
20:14	Sgeo	emezeske, yeah, but it's not applicable to everything that it makes sense to map over
20:14	hiredman	:(
20:14	amalloy	Sgeo: the only way to get a language where everything is exactly as you want it, is to write one yourself
20:14	ChongLi	this is one of the things that drew me to clojure: the core standard library actually makes use of all the cool stuff
20:14	jeremyheiler	yeah, im going nuts over this lol
20:15	emezeske	Sgeo: What would it not be applicable to, for example?
20:15	hiredman	jeremyheiler: the :( was for asking for help then giving a mistranscribed paste
20:16	jeremyheiler	I edited it immediately after I pasted it, sorry. didn't think anybody was that quick.
20:16	Sgeo	emezeske, a continuation monadic value.
20:16	hiredman	jeremyheiler: what are you doing that results in that exception? running lein? what command?
20:17	Sgeo	At least, I don't _think_ it's applicable there
20:17	jeremyheiler	as the paste says, "lein run" (and i "lein clean" just before)
20:17	emezeske	Sgeo: Well I'm not a monad expert, but I was under the impression that was exactly what fmap was for
20:18	emezeske	Sgeo: Are you really writing functions that don't know whether they'll be passed a monad or a seq?
20:18	Sgeo	emezeske, fmap is only called fmap because Haskell's map was not sufficiently general. If there was a do-over, fmap would be called map.
20:20	jkkramer	4
20:21	hiredman	jeremyheiler: my guess is while pasting(and editing) your example you made other changes, most likely turning something like (ns foo.main require [foo.core]) in to what you have in the paste, or you left out some stuff from the paste
20:22	hiredman	as the paste is right now there is nothing in foo.core so it does nothing, but maybe in the realy code you have foo.main loading foo.core or something
20:23	hiredman	mayber there is (ns foo.main (:use [whatever.bleh :only x])) somewhere
20:25	hiredman	(and your gist doesn't mention lein run anywhere)
20:25	jeremyheiler	hiredman: I really have commented out everything except for what is in the paste, and those are the only two files (namespaces) I have. The only thing that seems to change the outcome is removing (:require [foo.core]) from foo.main
20:25	jeremyheiler	(line 11)
20:26	hiredman	is that the complete namespace for foo.core?
20:26	hiredman	complete ns form
20:26	jeremyheiler	yes
20:26	hiredman	I don't believe you
20:28	hiredman	all evidence points to bad ns form
20:29	erider	which one is better to use hash-map or {}
20:29	hiredman	{}
20:30	erider	ok thanks
20:31	Frozenlock	Trying to use this in cljs: http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/closure/goog/demos/timers.html
20:32	Frozenlock	(def asdf (create-delayed-function #(js/alert "ho!") 1000)) => #<[object Object]>
20:32	Frozenlock	Nice, but then when I want to start the timer: (.start asdf) => #<TypeError: Object [object Object] has no method 'start'>
20:33	Frozenlock	Am I not using the method like I should?
20:35	jeremyheiler	hiredman: Maybe my computer is just messed up. I kept running "clear; lein clean; lein run" over and over again, and started noticing that I would not constantly get the error (but I would get it most of the time) with out editing any files.
20:36	zaargy	hi all. i was just trying out something i found on stack overflow and i can't work out why the (.getName d) after the Files in this paste doesn't print out anything for me? http://pastebin.com/FAWSEvf9
20:37	zaargy	also wouldn't it be better to have a function that constructs the list and then print it out nicely in another function?
20:38	amalloy	,(.getName (java.io.File. "/"))
20:38	clojurebot	""
20:39	zaargy	sure
20:39	zaargy	but in the above it doesn't print out antyhing
20:39	zaargy	it works elsewhere
20:39	zaargy	elsewhere in the function that so was a bit confused about what the different was
20:40	amalloy	/ is a directory whose name is the empty string
20:40	amalloy	it successfully prints zero characters
20:41	zaargy	a ha
20:41	zaargy	sorry i see your thing now
20:48	Frozenlock	Eh... I don't know why, but it works when I call the entire name: goog.async.Delay.
20:50	emezeske	Frozenlock: Are you aware of the (:require ...) restrictions in cljs?
20:50	Frozenlock	Maybe... :) I know I need to require the constructor too. --> [goog.async :as async] [goog.async.Delay :as Delay]
20:51	tomoj	I still am confused about that
20:51	emezeske	Frozenlock: Requiring the constructor like that looks very wrong to me (but I don't know what would be right)
20:52	tomoj	https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/etFN-sdBS6c/discussion http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-312
20:52	Frozenlock	Is there another way to make it work? iirc, if I don't require it, I can't call it even when I write goog.async.Delay.
20:52	emezeske	Frozenlock: I think for the constructor you should :import instead of :require, maybe?
20:53	tomoj	:import is not supported yet
20:53	Frozenlock	Oh. I've never used :import o_O
20:53	tomoj	[goog.async :as async :refer [Delay]] maybe?
20:54	emezeske	Frozenlock: I think you need to (:import goog.async.Delay) in your (ns ...)
20:54	tomoj	:import is not supported yet (or did they sneak it in in another patch or something?)
20:54	tomoj	CLJS-312 "Support :import" is unresolved
20:54	emezeske	Oh, nevermind me then
20:54	emezeske	Damn
20:54	emezeske	I have no ide athen
20:54	Frozenlock	tomoj: bullseye
20:55	Frozenlock	Now I'm wondering wall requiring the directly the constructor worked :s
20:55	Frozenlock	Anyway, thanks!
20:56	tomoj	[goog.async :as async :refer [Delay]] doesn't work?
20:56	tomoj	oh
20:56	Frozenlock	Yes it works.
20:56	tomoj	I read "bullseye" as "bullshit"
20:56	Frozenlock	lol!
20:58	jeremyheiler	Are there any known issues with clojure on java 7?
20:59	Frozenlock	jeremyheiler: Not that I can tell.
21:00	uvtc	jeremyheiler: I'm using OpenJDK 7 on GNU/Linux and it seems fine.
21:03	jeremyheiler	I've been using it for a while, too. I'm just getting a lot of weird errors in a project that worked fine on a different machine with jdk6 earlier. Now I am wondering if I've copied in some odd whitespace issues.
21:06	casion	anyone using nrepl-ritz, and if so how's it working out for you?
21:08	dnolen	emezeske: ping
21:09	emezeske	dnolen: pong
21:10	dnolen	emezeske: I thinking about moving forward with the printing patch ...
21:10	dnolen	emezeske: warning can be separate ticket.
21:11	emezeske	dnolen: Arg, sorry that I haven't gotten around to that yet X_X
21:11	dnolen	emezeske: no worries, I don't feel like letting that ticket languish since what's there is good.
21:12	emezeske	dnolen: I think that's reasonable -- as long as the warning gets added before the old ways is removed, that should be fine
21:13	dnolen	emezeske: one question about the implementation ... it seems a bit strange that the printer is a function?
21:13	dnolen	emezeske: hmm actually I guess not since you leverage it taking multiple args
21:14	emezeske	dnolen: A function as opposed to what?
21:14	emezeske	dnolen: (I'm not at my workstation atm)
21:15	dnolen	emezeske: it's just that in Clojure it's all done via the JVM Writer inerface - but it's probably not a big deal ...
21:15	dnolen	emezeske: I was hoping folks w/ review the ticket but no such luck :)
21:16	dnolen	review the patch I mean.
21:16	emezeske	dnolen: Ooh, I hadn't thought of that
21:17	emezeske	dnolen: Is there an equivalent interface in cljs?
21:17	Frozenlock	Ok I have this function: (create-delayed-function fn delay). `fn' need to apply the method .dispose on the result of create-delayed-function. I would like to do this without any atoms, so purely functional. Is there a way?
21:18	amalloy	a function seems most natural to me: it's a Writer because java doesn't have functions and Writer is the basic output mechanism; in js the basic output mechanism is a function (console.log)
21:18	dnolen	emezeske: writer / printer does seem more appropriate given some folks might want to redirect when working with node.js ...
21:19	emezeske	dnolen: Without the source in front of me it's hard to comment
21:20	S11001001	Frozenlock: I think you've mixed up some of your metasyntactic vars; do you mean by the latter `create-delayed-function' `delay', and by the latter `fn', `create-delayed-function's result'?
21:20	ChongLi	how would I go about mapping a Java method over a sequence?
21:20	emezeske	dnolen: I could take a look a little later tonight
21:21	dnolen	amalloy: yes, but given various other places where you might run JS I'm just wondering if there are benefits to a writer protocol?
21:21	S11001001	ChongLi: #(.getBlah x y z) is a clojure function that calls the java getBlah method on x with args y and z
21:21	jeremyheiler	ChongLi: You can use an anonymous function like &(map #(Math/pow % 2) (range 0 5))
21:21	jeremyheiler	Ah, too slow...
21:22	ChongLi	I want to map Math/log over a sequence of numbers
21:22	Frozenlock	(def abc (create-delayed-function fn delay)). The delayed function fn-> (defn fn [] (.dispose abc))
21:23	Frozenlock	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/trampoline?
21:23	clojurebot	http://clojure.org is timeless.
21:23	ChongLi	(map Math/log (seq 1 2 3 4))
21:23	ChongLi	unable to find static field: log
21:23	ChongLi	sorry, I'm not a Java programmer
21:23	S11001001	ChongLi: see lines from jeremyheiler and myself
21:24	tmciver	,(map #(Math/log %) (seq 1 2 3 4))
21:24	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$seq>
21:24	jeremyheiler	,(map #(Math/log %) [1 2 3 4])
21:24	clojurebot	(0.0 0.6931471805599453 1.0986122886681098 1.3862943611198906)
21:24	S11001001	aww tmciver
21:24	ChongLi	ahhh thanks
21:24	tmciver	:(
21:25	S11001001	jeremyheiler: well if you're just going to give away the answer :)
21:25	jeremyheiler	I basically did earlier, just with Math/pow lol
21:33	dnolen	emezeske: added some comments to the ticket, worth pondering a little bit more I think. That said I think we're close.
21:37	emezeske	dnolen: Cool, I'll try to take a look later tonight.
21:38	pandeiro	emezeske: any horizon for your fetch-esque code to go public?
21:38	emezeske	pandeiro: Hooo... No, I don't know when I'll have a chance to work on that.
21:38	pandeiro	i am still trying to figure out the sanest skeleton for writing async-heavy, clojure/cljs apps
21:39	emezeske	pandeiro: Maybe I can find some way to work that into the blog series I'm doing about my experiences developing my seating charts app
21:39	pandeiro	emezeske: that would be really cool
21:43	Frozenlock	Scew that, I'll use an atom.
22:05	xeqi	$findfn [1 2] [1 2 3] true
22:05	lazybot	[clojure.set/subset? clojure.core/not= clojure.core/distinct?]
22:06	amalloy	xeqi: are you looking for https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L242 ?
22:07	xeqi	yep
22:07	xeqi	thanks amalloy
22:11	amalloy	that impl probably isn't as lazy as it should be, though. i really need to break the (if-let [[x & xs] (seq coll)]) habit
22:11	xeqi	that one might be more memory efficent then (fn [l1 l2] (= (take (count l1) l2) l1)) ?
22:11	xeqi	ah, its lazier
22:12	amalloy	xeqi: the simplest impl is (every? true? (map = xs ys))
22:12	xeqi	haha
22:12	amalloy	but then you get back true if either one is shorter, which might be what you want, or not
22:13	ChongLi	https://www.refheap.com/paste/4726
22:13	ChongLi	anyone have some advice on making this more idiomatic?
22:14	ChongLi	besides the indentation, which I can't get right on this site
22:15	amalloy	that looks fine to me. you could use iterate to generate an infinite seq of guesses, and drop-while it's not good-enough? but i doubt that comes out looking better
22:17	ChongLi	hmmm
22:18	ChongLi	I guess I just need to get better at reading S expressions
22:18	ChongLi	so my eyes don't get crossed from the parens :)
22:19	amalloy	ChongLi: if the guess function is bothering you, you can use -> to nest the math less
22:20	ChongLi	not sure how to do that
22:21	amalloy	(->> (inc (* k 2)) (/ (Math/pow -1 k)) (* 4) (+ o)) would be one way
22:22	amalloy	or perhaps (-> (Math/pow -1 k) (/ (inc (* k 2))) (* 4) (+ o))
22:25	ChongLi	yeah that looks nicer
22:27	ChongLi	it looks really nice when you put each function on its own line
23:30	axle_512	sorry in advance for the newb question… what is the relationship between clojure.core and other "core" libraries? (e.g. core.match, core.logic, core.cache)
23:30	ChongLi	I'd like to know this one as well, I'm a newb too :)
23:31	jeremyheiler	The other libraries are just not included in the clojure.jar
23:31	cshell	They're just additional libraries of clojure functions
23:31	cshell	so you use only what you need
23:32	axle_512	any reason why they are labelled as "core"? Does anyone create a library with core.x or are these libraries affiliated with the clojure.core team?
23:32	arohner_	is there any circumstance where count will return nil?
23:32	ChongLi	alright so who's ready for some more category theory?
23:32	ChongLi	hahaha
23:32	ChongLi	I love Rich
23:33	amalloy	arohner: no, it's not possible
23:33	arohner	axle_512: many of the contrib libraries labeled 'core' are looking to become part of the official release
23:34	axle_512	arohner: thanks!
23:34	axle_512	cshell, jeremyheiler: thanks!
23:34	amalloy	really? i don't think that's true except in the quite long term
23:53	XPherior	Does does calling has-a-different result in Clojure complaining that java.lang.Class doesn't implement Differentiate? (type (attribute description)) can resolve to Integer or Long or String and it still dispatches to Class.
23:53	XPherior	Meant there to be a "Why" at the beginning of that. Sorry.