#clojure – 2012-06-29

2012-06-29

00:04	technomancy	hircus: no, that would be 2.x
00:05	technomancy	2.x doesn't really need maven actually, just aether, which should be significantly smaller
00:06	brehaut	cemerick, amalloy: my complaint with use of type when you mean class is to do with intent; class is about concrete implementation, type is about abstract taxonomy
00:07	brehaut	it happens that the concrete implementation is used as taxonomy, but its not necessarily the case
00:08	xeqi	JulioBarros: I think you're looking for http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
00:11	aniero	aperiodic: sweet, this appears to be working. not that i can easily test high concurrency yet, but still!
00:12	hircus	technomancy: ah, ok; in case the Maven2 maintainer keeps dragging his feet we'll have to take a look at that
00:12	technomancy	hircus: there are more dependencies on the clojure side, but I think fewer total
00:12	brainproxy	JulioBarros: linux distros usually come with hashing libs and cli frontends for them either installed by default or easily installed with a package manager
00:13	hircus	we'll still have to wait until it can be built without bootstrapping using Leiningen 1.x, right?
00:13	technomancy	I don't think that will be difficult
00:14	technomancy	in fact, it might be enough just to check pom.xml into the packaging branch and run mvn install
00:14	technomancy	once leiningen-core's dependencies are packaged anyway
00:14	hircus	ah, ok
00:15	technomancy	that same process (store the pom in the packaging branch, run mvn install) will probably work for the clojure dependencies lein has
00:16	technomancy	or just a simple `jar -cf [...]` invocation if you prefer
00:18	technomancy	hircus: all the deps of leiningen: http://p.hagelb.org/lein-deps.html
00:18	hircus	thanks
00:18	technomancy	all the signed ones are in Central and build without lein
00:18	hircus	technomancy: that'd work out great, as currently there's no Maven in RHEL / CentOS / Scientific Linux at all :)
00:19	technomancy	O_O
00:19	technomancy	wow
00:20	technomancy	clucy and hooke have mvn-less packaging already for debian's lein1 packaging
00:21	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/robert-hooke/blob/debian/debian/rules
00:21	hircus	technomancy: yup, we resorted to doing that, since Maven is really unhappy with source-only packages anyway
00:23	hircus	technomancy: most of the great leaps in Fedora's Java tooling support happens post-Fedora 12, it seems (prior to that the focus was on getting Eclipse packaged, and those people don't use Maven much).
00:23	hircus	and RHEL 6 is... branched from Fedora 12
00:27	cemerick	technomancy: that list is out of date; pomegranate is 0.0.13
00:27	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, but I don't think the number of dependencies has changed since we excluded ring
00:28	cemerick	OK; just wanted to make sure no one was depending on that for anything. :-)
00:28	cemerick	BTW, Eclipse is great at builds. Click-click, and you've got an application built.
00:28	technomancy	right; I just wanted to give an impression of the magnitude of the task
00:28	technomancy	cemerick: sure, if everyone on your team uses it
00:28	cemerick	It even uses ant underneath, which is nice.
00:28	technomancy	including a fellow named Jenkins
00:29	technomancy	as well as his buddy Travis
00:31	technomancy	"It even uses ant underneath" actually sounds like something you'd say to cushion the statement
00:32	technomancy	I'm all over the place today
00:33	cemerick	technomancy: that's what makes that troll sing :-)
00:33	xeqi	wait, you guys don't use java.awt.robot to click eclipse buttons to build?
00:34	cemerick	xeqi: I already do, but all my coordinates are going to get screwed up on the new retina displays.
00:35	cemerick	I think I can use AppleScript to convert them dynamically.
00:35	cemerick	"There's an API for that!"
00:35	xeqi	that only for an apple right?
00:36	technomancy	oh man come on...
00:36	technomancy	clucy doesn't declare a license
00:36	cemerick	cue Raynes
00:37	Raynes	What? I have nothing to do with clucy.
00:37	cemerick	Dude, you're gettin' an Apple!
00:37	Raynes	Oh.
00:37	Raynes	xeqi: I tweeted earlier, paraphrased, "If you refer to an Apple product as 'an Apple' and you're in reaching distance, I will not hesitate to punch you in the face."
00:37	Raynes	I meant it.
00:37	Raynes	Stop.
00:38	technomancy	but he's not within punching range
00:38	Raynes	I've got a keyboard and I know how to use it.
00:38	cemerick	Raynes: What do you want from me, I'm porting documentation from a Word doc to something sane @ 12:30am.
00:38	wingy	cool post about web dev with cljs: http://notehub.org/2012/6/16/how-notehub-is-built
00:39	hircus	Raynes: could be worse, some people refer to them as MACs
00:39	hircus	even, mind-bogglingly, in networking textbooks where you'd think they'd know better
00:40	Raynes	I take offense to it because 'an Apple' could be any number of a zillion products.
00:40	xeqi	like an apple record
00:40	Raynes	I've watched people refer to an Apple TV and a macbook pro as 'an Apple' in the same breath.
00:40	xeqi	or an actual apple
00:40	amalloy	Raynes: that's fine though, right? you can say "i'm going to the store to get a toy"
00:41	amalloy	without having to be specific about exactly what toy you're referring to; it's entirely accurate and useful
00:41	Raynes	amalloy: There is no fruit that I know of that shares its name with that word.
00:41	technomancy	did Apple, Inc. ever pay out to the Beatles's company after breaking their agreement over the trademark?
00:41	Raynes	A toy is a type of product. Apple is a company.
00:42	amalloy	shrug an Apple is a type of product too
00:42	Raynes	Yeah, a fruit.
00:42	TheBusby	technomancy: there were a couple of lawsuits that were settled
00:42	Raynes	I think the comparison here is……. Apples to oranges.
00:42	Raynes	~rimshot
00:42	clojurebot	Badum, tish
00:43	technomancy	clojurebot: caruso
00:43	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
00:43	technomancy	=(
00:44	TimMc	~suddenly
00:44	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
00:53	brehaut	i think raynes just wants to show off his alabama education and correct everyone to 'A Apple'
00:56	cemerick	Moving to L.A. @ however-old-he-is. I wish I had had an Alabama education. :-P
00:57	Raynes	I think I'd be 18 at this point.
00:57	cemerick	I think I knew that.
00:57	TimMc	amalloy: Any idea what the license is on java-getopt? Trying to figure out how to license my program that uses clojopts...
00:58	Raynes	Why would you use that?
00:58	Raynes	I'm actually curious, not criticizing.
00:58	TimMc	amalloy: Never mind! GPL v2.
00:58	cemerick	No one can ever guess how old I am, so I don't feel too bad about being off by a year or two on other people. :-)
00:58	TimMc	Raynes: I really, really like getopt's conventions.
01:00	TimMc	My project links against GPL, EPL, Apache License, and MIT License... that makes it GPL, right? I hate this stuff. >_<
01:29	Scriptor	TimMc: if what you're distributing contains compiled gpl code...I guess?
01:29	Scriptor	not sure about the specifics, but it's something like tha
01:43	xeqi	TimMc: java-getopt has the LGPL in the source tree as the license
01:45	xeqi	so unless you're linking against another GPL project you can license it however, IANAL and all that
01:46	TheBusby	What's the name of the Clojure core function that is essentially, (take-while #(.hasNext foo) (repeatedly #(.get foo)))
01:46	TheBusby	sorry, for the life of me I can't remember/find it, but I swear I've used it a couple times before for interfacing with java stuff especially.
02:02	mmarczyk	TheBusby: iterator-seq ?
02:03	amalloy	$findfn (.iterator (java.util.ArrayList. [1 2 3 4])) [1 2 3 4]
02:03	lazybot	[clojure.core/iterator-seq]
02:04	TheBusby	mmarczyk: er, works for the above example but not for the general case.
02:04	eck	what's the right way to force a lazy sequence to become a list or something else? i have a variable that i want to print, but when i print it i just get something showing lazyseq, not the actual contents of the sequence which i want to see
02:04	TheBusby	I guess my brain is playing tricks on me and I may have imagined it...
02:05	amalloy	TheBusby: i'm pretty sure it works for all cases?
02:05	TheBusby	eck: doall ?
02:05	TEttinger2	eck: take
02:05	amalloy	eck: you want pr/pr-str, not print/print-str
02:05	TEttinger2	(take 5 (repeat 7))
02:06	amalloy	doall and take have no relevance to how the thing prints
02:06	TEttinger2	,(take 5 (repeat 7))
02:06	clojurebot	(7 7 7 7 7)
02:06	eck	amalloy: thanks
02:07	eck	pr-str seems to do the trick
02:38	devn	lol im having such a hard time ignoring this thread now that meikel starting golfing in it
02:38	devn	,(range 1 6 2)
02:38	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
02:38	devn	,(map first (partition 2 2 (range 1 7)))
02:38	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
02:38	devn	(filter odd? (range 1 6))
02:38	devn	,(filter odd? (range 1 6))
02:38	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
02:39	devn	I wonder how many <4 function ways (1 3 5) can be produced
02:40	hiredman	,(doc take-nth)
02:40	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a lazy seq of every nth item in coll."
02:56	alexyakushev	Hello, could please someone help me with type hints? I have a macro that defines a function, I want the arguments in this generated function to be type-hinted, but I don't know the type beforehand (it comes as an argument to a macro). So the macro looks like:
02:56	alexyakushev	(defmacro foo [klass]
02:56	alexyakushev	`(defn bar [~'this]
02:56	alexyakushev	(.method ~'this)))
02:56	alexyakushev	But I want the call to .method be non-reflective
02:57	amalloy	(.method ~(vary-meta 'this assoc :tag class))
03:03	alexyakushev	amalloy: Thanks! But unfortunately this doesn't work:( I still get the reflection warning
03:04	alexyakushev	I even tried to replace class arg with the real class but it doesn't eliminate the reflection too
03:12	alexyakushev	amalloy: I'm sorry, I was hinting with the parent type instead of the right one. You solution works great, thank you!
03:12	aperiodic	aniero: yeah, i'm fairly confident that that scheme will work. if you like, i could give a formal proof, but note that this is basically how this sort of problem is solved by people much smarter than me for things like CRCW PRAM machines. that being said, if there are issues, please let me know!
03:23	alcar	could anyone recommend me some books on clojure focused on game prog? I'm a beginner in clojure but I've programmed in other languages
03:28	alcar	anyone?
03:28	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
03:29	michaelr`	alcar: i think there no clojure books focused on game programming
03:31	antares_	alcar: I don't think any of the books focuses on games specifically and there are many subjects related to game dev
03:32	antares_	alcar: start with Clojure Programming from O'Reilly (clojurebook.com), once you get some experience, I believe there is a small game example in Programming Clojure 2nd ed from PragProg. Or was it The Joy of Clojure…
03:33	alcar	ok, I'll do that
03:34	alcar	any other kind of material?
03:34	alcar	like youtube channels, wikis..?
03:34	aperiodic	alcar: this guy on github has some projects that are games in clojure/clojurescript: https://github.com/thomcc
03:35	aperiodic	alcar: dunno if they're any good, though ;)
03:35	antares_	alcar: planet.clojure.in has game-related topics probably every month or so, there are projects on github, also feel free to ask here or on the Clojure mailing list
03:35	aperiodic	yeah, people love to kibitz, don't be afraid to ask for help
04:35	SrPx	Can you guys point me again to the place where it explained map with multiple arguments?
04:36	amalloy	~zip
04:36	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
04:36	aperiodic	SrPx: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/map is one such place
04:37	aperiodic	SrPx: some of the examples show usage with multiple collection arguments
04:37	SrPx	Thanks, I was looking at http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/map
05:59	mystiiq	hey, how can I split string ("hello.txt") by dot delimiter, and then insert random string in front of the last element, so I'd have ("hello" "-timestamp" "txt") and the final thing to do is to join that vector
06:00	borkdude	mystiiq ##(.split "hello.txt" .)
06:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: . in this context
06:00	borkdude	mystiiq ##(.split "hello.txt" \.)
06:00	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.String
06:00	borkdude	mystiiq ##(.split "hello.txt" ".") ;; then
06:00	lazybot	⇒ #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@955cf3>
06:01	borkdude	,(let [[f l] (.split "hello.txt" ".")] (str f "-timestamp" l))
06:01	clojurebot	"-timestamp"
06:01	borkdude	hmm no, wait up ;)
06:07	borkdude	,(count (.split "hello.txt" "."))
06:07	clojurebot	0
06:07	borkdude	hm. something with .?
06:10	borkdude	,(let [[f l] (.split "hello.txt" "\\.")] (str f "-timestamp" "." l))
06:10	clojurebot	"hello-timestamp.txt"
06:45	mduerksen	does anyone have suggestions: how to integrate css-generation (less/sass) in a java/clojure environment? i've seen asual/lesscss-engine, but it has the downside of not being easily upgradeable to the latest less-version, and it seems buggy
06:56	ro_st	what do you want this integration to do, mduerksen?
07:02	mduerksen	ro_st: my ring-powered webservice wants to generate css on demand (style.less -> style.css)
07:03	ro_st	assumedly only when less files have changed?
07:03	ro_st	wouldn't it be better to compile when .less files change?
07:03	ro_st	reduces the request/response turnaround
07:04	ro_st	in fact, our devs (and i) use auto-compilers on our dev machines and only deploy .css files (although .less is in git too)
07:05	ro_st	i know that doesn't answer your question :-) sorr
07:05	ro_st	y
07:05	mduerksen	well, it would suffice if the generation would happen automatically, it doesn't need to be rendered each time
07:05	mduerksen	but for development it would be nice if the generation would happen without any interaction
07:05	ro_st	if you're on mac, grab LESS.app
07:06	ro_st	or livereload.com or one of the other great tools that handle this sort of thing
07:07	AWizzArd	Oho, Groovy 2.0 now comes with a type checker.
07:08	Natch	if you just want to regen a file when source changes and you know a bit of ruby have a look at the watchr gem
07:09	mduerksen	ro_st: i need it to happen when the project is built on a build server, without any extra manual step, so less.app won't help me. never heard of livereload, looking into it right now
07:09	ro_st	well, less is a commandline binary, so you should be able to shell out to invoke it on your .less files
07:09	ro_st	these apps simply put a ui ontop of this
07:11	mduerksen	ro_st: i thought less was a .js-file which had to be invoked on node.js
07:12	ro_st	there is a js version of less
07:12	ro_st	i believe there's an ix binary too
07:13	mduerksen	i don't know node.js: can i just invoke a node-script from commandline?
07:13	ro_st	someone's writing these less files, right? presumably they're testing them too. therefore, it follows that whomever this is can ensure that css files are present when code is committed
07:13	ro_st	absolutely. that's the default way
07:13	mduerksen	because then i could, as you say, invoke the less compiler on build
07:14	mduerksen	thanks ro_st, i think thats what i needed
07:19	ro_st	hth :-)
07:32	Cheiron	Hi. why I'm getting this error every time I try to bootstrap clojurescript? http://pastie.org/4170908
08:24	zaamkablam	I just came here seeking clojure.
08:25	zaamkablam	Right, macro questions here.
08:25	zaamkablam	Is there a way, to know the name of the macro in its body?
08:26	zaamkablam	C'mon, #clojure, don't let me down.
08:26	zaamkablam	Name of the macro from within its body.
08:27	ro_st	can you do this for fns?
08:27	zaamkablam	Not that I know of, no.
08:28	ro_st	i suspect this will be the case for macros, too
08:28	zaamkablam	Yeah, I was afraid of that.
08:29	Iceland_work	zaamkablam: Write a `defmacro+' ;)
08:29	ro_st	don't take my word for it, though. i'm still a massive clojure newbie
08:29	zaamkablam	You mean, something akin to (defmacro defmacro+ [name & body] ... ?
08:29	Iceland_work	yes
08:29	zaamkablam	I'm a more massive clojure newbie. Physically and mentally.
08:30	zaamkablam	You, sir, make sense.
08:30	Iceland_work	I once wrote a Common Lisp defun+ where the function could anaphorically access its own source code
08:30	Bronsa	zaamkablam (first &form)
08:31	ro_st	boom
08:35	zaamkablam	Oh, wow.
08:37	Bronsa	remember that &form and &env are avaiable only from within a macro though
08:40	zaamkablam	Bronsa, I seriously love you, man.
08:40	Bronsa	lol
09:00	zaamkablam	brb, checking out another client.
09:01	siscia	hi guys, does anybody know anything about Raposo (bayesian network library developed by Chas Cemerick that himself talked about during the conj 2) ???
09:01	lazybot	siscia: Oh, absolutely.
09:06	zerokarmaleft	siscia: last i talked to him about it, it's on the backburner, on account of writing his book mostly
09:07	root_	right
09:07	root_	shit
09:09	Cheiron	Hi. why I'm getting this error every time I try to bootstrap clojurescript? http://pastie.org/4170908
09:15	siscia	zerokarmaleft: thanks, yes i definitely understand the book is way more important, but if he would find the time just to push everything on github in the mean would be nice too...
09:15	siscia	well of course i can't ask anything, so everything is waaaaay more than good
09:15	siscia	thanks though...
10:03	acheng	i have (defmulti name "doc string" :key) ... but (doc name) doesn't
10:03	acheng	show "doc string"... what did i do wrong?
10:05	borkdude	what kind of a mathematician names his child "Vi" (Vi Hart)… as a revenge I expect some kids being named emacs "Emacs Johanson" or smth
10:05	antares_	acheng: it does for me
10:05	antares_	borkdude: I think they usually spell it E. Max Johansson
10:06	antares_	acheng: doc is in clojure.repl, so maybe you did not run (use 'clojure.repl)?
10:07	zaamkablam	E. Klipse Oksedental must be a cripple, then...
10:08	borkdude	Nano Yakamoto
10:08	borkdude	Ed …
10:09	acheng	antares_: hm. yes doc works but the doc string doesn't appear for me. and yes i did compile after writing it. sadness.
10:09	acheng	docstring shows up for my normal fns
10:09	antares_	acheng: doc will print the doc string, not return it
10:09	acheng	but not for my multimethod.
10:10	antares_	I am curious if it is one of those cases when metadata is not preserved (in the REPL)
10:11	antares_	I could reproduce it now once but if I define a different multimethod (multi-m instead of multi, for example), doc string is printed as it should
10:14	borkdude	,(with-out-str (doc +))
10:14	clojurebot	""
10:14	acheng	ah. with a new repl it works as well
10:14	acheng	so you are right
10:15	acheng	thanks antares_ !
10:15	borkdude	,(doc +)
10:15	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
10:15	borkdude	,(with-out-str (doc +))
10:15	clojurebot	""
10:15	borkdude	huh?
10:16	borkdude	&(doc +)
10:16	lazybot	⇒ "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
10:16	borkdude	,(println "foo")
10:16	clojurebot	foo
10:18	acheng	antares_: is this normal behavior for the repl (re: metadata) or is it an issue that should be fixed eventually?
10:19	antares_	acheng: I am not sure but since things in the REPL are constantly redefined, reevaluated and so on, it may be a side effect that you will never come across in running apps but may in the REPL
10:20	acheng	ok. i read recently about getting slimed. this feels similar. cool.
10:23	wingy	could anyone explain what this mean: ({:a 5 :b 6} :c 7)
10:23	dnolen	wingy: that code is incorrect.
10:24	borkdude	,({:a 5 :b 6} :c 7)
10:24	clojurebot	7
10:24	wingy	yeah but what does it mean
10:24	borkdude	wingy probably maps as fns behave as get on themselves
10:24	dnolen	wingy: data structures in Clojure are functions.
10:24	dnolen	wingy: a better example is,
10:24	borkdude	wingy and get accepts a fall back argument (not found)
10:24	dnolen	,({:a 5 :b 6} :a)
10:24	clojurebot	5
10:25	wingy	7 is a default value?
10:25	borkdude	,({:a 5 :b 6} :c :lets-see)
10:25	clojurebot	:lets-see
10:25	wingy	oh yeah it makes sense
10:25	borkdude	,(get {:a 5 :b 6} :c :lets-see)
10:25	clojurebot	:lets-see
10:25	dnolen	wingy: note that writing it that way is a short-hand for get as borkdude showed.
10:26	dnolen	honestly never thought about using ({...} k default) before ...
10:26	borkdude	dnolen me neither, vectors behave like nth I believe
10:26	borkdude	,([1 2] 3 :not-found)
10:26	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector>
10:26	borkdude	,(get [1 2] 3 :not-found)
10:26	clojurebot	:not-found
10:27	borkdude	dnolen is this in clojurescript the same? ;)
10:27	TimMc	xeqi: Oh hey, you're right -- that's the LGPL. Neato.
10:28	dnolen	borkdude: why should it be different?
10:28	borkdude	dnolen because someone forgot to implement it? I dunno
10:29	wingy	its a big diff between this channel and others i have participated in
10:29	wingy	here a lot of people care about the lang and educate a lot .. while thats not the same in other langs
10:29	borkdude	dnolen: clojurescript => ([1 2] 3 :not-found)
10:29	borkdude	:not-found
10:29	wingy	or channels
10:30	dnolen	borkdude: it's the same, fn calls on data structures go through ILookup, for Vector types that goes through nth.
10:30	borkdude	dnolen apparently not...
10:30	dnolen	"that then goes trhough"
10:30	dnolen	borkdude: oh heh - you're right. But nth also takes a not found param - which I guess make sense.
10:31	dnolen	,(nth [0 1 2] 4 :not-found)
10:31	clojurebot	:not-found
10:31	borkdude	dnolen ok, so hmm… then there is a subtle difference between clojure and clojurescript, maybe it should be addressed?
10:32	dnolen	borkdude: yeah I guess Clojure Vector types should implement the other ILookup arity.
10:32	nDuff	wingy: There's a substantial culture difference too. Frankly, there are channels I'm in where people care about the language just as much and are similarly willing to educate others, but have less patience or tolerance for people who don't help themselves / bring in off-topic chatter / etc.
10:33	borkdude	wingy that might be because clojure is a very lovable language
10:33	TimMc	Well, that'll teach me to read software licenses at 01:30 >_<
10:33	xeqi	TimMc: if you see GPL java stuff, and it doesn't have the "classpath exception" written somewhere it should sound alarm bells
10:34	noidi	how can I provide a constructor to a proxy?
10:34	noidi	I need to call a protected method on the base class, so I can't do it after the instance has been created
10:35	noidi	at least I suspect the "protected" bit is what's causing a "No matching method found" when I try to call the method on the instance
10:36	noidi	ah, it seems that proxy can't handle protected methods, and I'll need to use gen-class
10:37	TimMc	xeqi: Why? Wouldn't that just invoke the standard viral aspect?
10:39	xeqi	TimMc: yeah, but its very rare in java world
10:41	borkdude	dnolen should I send an e-mail about this on the clojure mailing list, or is this something you want to register in the issue tracking system (I have no access to it)
10:42	gtrak	nDuff: if you hang out in ##java long enough you'll feel the same way, for instance you don't see people coming here with homework problems. I think the floor is much higher.
10:43	foodoo	gtrak: Or teacher's just don't give homework tasks in Clojure ;)
10:44	dnolen	borkdude: send in your CA so you can open a ticket. Sounds like a simple fix.
10:44	borkdude	dnolen I still have to do it… paperwork ;)
10:44	wingy	clojure reminds me about LEGO .. and i loved it as a child
10:45	wingy	finally after 3 years of web dev im learning real programming!
10:45	borkdude	wingy Lisp in general is what made programming fun for me on the level that I liked it as a kid
10:45	wingy	oop reminds me about management work .. you think you are coding but you are not
10:45	borkdude	wingy fun level, addiction level, etc
10:45	wingy	yeah
10:45	wingy	im so addicted
10:46	borkdude	wingy great line, I tweeted it right away ;)
10:46	wingy	whats your tweet?
10:46	wingy	twitter
10:47	borkdude	@borkdude
10:55	borkdude	printing out this CA and actually sending it to the USA reminds me of sending a thank you note to the USA to someone who had created a nice free game and his address was printed when you quit the game..
10:55	borkdude	when I was a kid
10:56	borkdude	and the internet didn't exist (in my world)
10:56	gfredericks	borkdude: where did one obtain free games pre-internet?
10:56	borkdude	gfredericks trading disks
10:56	gfredericks	floppies?
10:57	gfredericks	flippy floppies?
10:57	borkdude	gfredericks yes and also diskettes (the 3.5" ones)
10:57	borkdude	gfredericks we used to have two-weekly meetings in our village (10k people), one half of the room Amiga, other half PCs
10:57	gfredericks	clojure is a nice free game
10:58	borkdude	gfredericks it was one giant software copying party...
10:58	gfredericks	borkdude: 10k is the village, not the meetings, I take it
10:58	borkdude	gfredericks yes
10:58	borkdude	gfredericks but the game I played was actually free or Shareware
10:59	wingy	i remember those 3.5" .. damn our world has changed
10:59	cemerick	poor ol' Amiga
10:59	TimMc	Thank goodness we're past CDs.
10:59	TimMc	They were pretty amazing, but really, really finicky.
10:59	gfredericks	thoes things were a little fragile
10:59	borkdude	it was amazing how fast viruses could spread even then, remember dealing with "Tequila", almost everyone in our neighbourhood had it :P
10:59	wingy	but now blueway is here .. i still can't get why we want that
11:00	TimMc	I received my wedding photos (14.5 GB) as a tiny flash stick in a padded envelope.
11:00	wingy	we want things over an internet connection
11:00	borkdude	wingy what is blueway?
11:00	wingy	blueray
11:01	gfredericks	blueway == cheap blueray knockoff
11:01	gfredericks	OR
11:01	borkdude	dnolen is clojurescript dev also a part of this Rich Hickey CA?
11:01	gfredericks	blueray for kids
11:01	borkdude	I never had a blueray disc so far
11:01	wingy	borkdude: what does CA mean?
11:02	borkdude	I don't even own a TV anymore
11:02	nDuff	wingy: contributor agreement
11:02	borkdude	wingy contributor agreement
11:02	wingy	borkdude: you just have to own an iPad ... the movies follow you wherever you are
11:02	borkdude	wingy I own a macbook air… ipad is too limited imho
11:03	wingy	yeah
11:03	wingy	nDuff: why now?
11:04	nDuff	wingy: ...hardware finally hitting the kind of capability / price point ratio that interests me, basically.
11:07	Cheiron_	Hi. why I'm getting this error every time I try to bootstrap clojurescript? http://pastie.org/4170908
11:08	elliottw	anyone have a noir app running on the same server as nginx?
11:10	nDuff	elliottw: ...not particularly, but given as noir apps are just Java servlets, any of us who've ever deployed a servlet can probably help with your questions... so why don't you describe your problem, rather than opening with a poll?
11:11	borkdude	can anyone tell me if clojurescript requires a separate mention on the CA in case you want to contribute?
11:11	borkdude	I'm sending paper to the USA, might as well include it
11:11	elliottw	nDuff sorry. good point. I've got a prgmr account with my static html blog (elliottw.com) and i want to run an app from the same server and have titlecase.org point to it
11:12	elliottw	currently noir at default runs at elliotw.com:8080
11:12	KirinDave	elliottw: If you've got a static blog, why not s3?
11:13	elliottw	KirinDave all these things are just learning experiences. i wanted to get to know *nix, hence prgmr
11:14	KirinDave	Ah
11:14	nDuff	elliottw: ...so, if you want to do this as a learning experience, I'd build a WAR with your Clojure app, deploy it into a servlet container, and use AJP to communicate between nginx and that container.
11:14	KirinDave	elliottw: I host my static blog on s3, they have this CDN thing.
11:14	michaelr`	elliottw: so what is your question? btw, what is prgmr?
11:14	KirinDave	Why not just deploy it via a self-hosted jetty?
11:14	elliottw	michaelr` sorry, prgmr is a vps
11:14	hiredman	fuh, the cool kids are on google cloud storage
11:15	KirinDave	hiredman: I switched to that from Dropbox for book and academic paper hosting
11:15	elliottw	i'm thinking of saying screw it and just deploy on heroku
11:15	KirinDave	Slap a few jetty responers up under a spread of ports via a tool like God.rb or whatever
11:15	KirinDave	Then use nginx on top.
11:15	KirinDave	That's a pretty realistic deploy for a professionally delivered product.
11:16	KirinDave	Increasingly .war stuff is only for very managed services.
11:16	michaelr`	KirinDave: what is managed services?
11:16	KirinDave	michaelr`: Um, like amazon elastic beanstalk?
11:17	michaelr`	ah
11:17	KirinDave	nDuff: I wish daemontools, runit et all were more robust. I am not a fan of God.rb either, but it does a lot more than the competition.
11:17	michaelr`	i'm deploying my site as a war
11:18	michaelr`	i just copy the war file into the webapps directory
11:18	KirinDave	For all our internal endpoints, I use the uberjar-jetty approach.
11:18	nDuff	KirinDave: I've run some very big sites on runit. Yes, we had our own tools above it for remote management / querying, but that's going to features, not robustness.
11:18	KirinDave	nDuff: I use runit too.
11:18	KirinDave	nDuff: I just don't think it's much better than God.rb. :)
11:19	nDuff	shrug. It's certainly smaller. I have something of a fondness for being able to use the same tool on a tiny embedded system as I use everywhere else.
11:19	KirinDave	Yeah, I can see that
11:19	nDuff	Granted, that's not much of an argument for people who don't also do embedded systems. :)
11:19	KirinDave	I only use ec2 nodes these days so there is plenty of room for a carefully written god instance.
11:20	hiredman	war+jetty-runner is very nice
11:20	elliottw	wow, thanks guys, looks like i have a lot of learning to do
11:21	hhutch	done't forget you can always manage a war+jetty deployment with palletops.com
11:21	wingy	set is just an ordered vector?
11:21	KirinDave	Is there some advantage to a .war over just having an uberjar?
11:21	elliottw	i've never "deployed" anything, just started learning clojure a month ago, and learning this whole server thing a month ago too… crazy
11:21	wingy	or a vector with unique values i mean
11:21	KirinDave	elliottw: Yeah it's a steep learning curve.
11:22	elliottw	KirinDave would you suggest i stick to something like heroku until i know what the h i'm doing?
11:22	KirinDave	elliottw: Hah, never.
11:22	KirinDave	Challenge yourself.
11:22	elliottw	lol, i thought i was doing that once i picked up that clojure book. now i realize learning a language is about half of what it takes
11:22	KirinDave	Not even 1/10th.
11:22	elliottw	KirinDave why no heroku?
11:23	elliottw	KirinDave true
11:23	KirinDave	elliottw: Don't get me wrong, technomancy is doing great work there.
11:23	KirinDave	I just think you'll get a lot more learning opportunities by standing up your own server from scratch in a cloud service.
11:23	elliottw	KirinDave technomancy is working to clojure up on heroku?
11:23	KirinDave	Pretty sure that's the case.
11:24	elliottw	seems like i could get my very first app up today w heroku, next week if i go another roll my own route
11:24	KirinDave	Yep
11:24	wingy	depends on what he wanna do .. launch an app or learning how to manage cloud infractructure
11:24	KirinDave	Probably true.
11:24	KirinDave	And wingy has it dead on.
11:24	KirinDave	And you could always do both.
11:25	wingy	if the former, just git push it to heroku
11:25	gtrak	meh, server admin is an unfulfilling PITA
11:25	KirinDave	gtrak: #devops man. Ain't nobody who can do it like you.
11:25	hhutch	gtrak: wow, i couldn't disagree more
11:25	KirinDave	That said, I loathe working with chef.
11:25	KirinDave	Effing loathe that software.
11:25	KirinDave	The Worst Software.
11:25	hhutch	KirinDave: pallet!
11:25	gtrak	maybe it's just me :-)
11:25	KirinDave	hhutch: I work in a chef organization.
11:26	wingy	also if he wanna be developer or sysadmin .. if the former . just git push
11:26	KirinDave	I'm working on getting pallet integrated but it's tough. It needs to register with the chef server and kick off vpn server chef client runs to generate keys and whatnot.
11:26	KirinDave	wingy: What is the difference?
11:26	KirinDave	A "developer" is just someone who doesn't like delivering products. A sysadmin is someone who doesn't like making them.
11:26	hhutch	i've never worked in a place where i didn't do alot of both administrative work and development
11:26	KirinDave	These days, you may have to do things from start to finish.
11:27	KirinDave	Esp with cloud services.
11:27	cemerick	elliottw: Don't burn yourself doing/learning things that you aren't necessarily interested in.
11:27	KirinDave	Part of what distributed software is, is resource management.
11:27	cemerick	Good way to burn out on the whole effort.
11:27	elliottw	thanks cemerick
11:27	KirinDave	elliottw: Cemerick espouses a path of weakness. Get huge. :)
11:27	elliottw	i don't want to burn out
11:27	cemerick	There's always next week, or next month. :-)
11:27	elliottw	KirinDave lol
11:27	wingy	KirinDave: agreed .. why you have to learn to leverage existing tools letting you do more with less
11:27	gtrak	hhutch: when I was in college I didn't mind messing around so much, now, time is more scarce.
11:28	hhutch	gtrak: right, but that's why you get more effecient
11:28	KirinDave	Cuz like, being a full-time software engineer is as much about problem solving, research, and troubleshooting as it is about writing code.
11:28	elliottw	gtrak yeah, i gotta still make a living. it took me half a day just for vps, install ubuntu, install jvm, clojure, etc etc
11:28	wingy	people cant make your app for you .. they can host/load balance/proxy it etc
11:28	wingy	imo you should let them and care about your domain .. the app
11:28	KirinDave	elliottw: Well that's not bad for a beginner.
11:28	gtrak	elliottw: and you'll do it a slightly different way each time... and forget how you did it
11:28	KirinDave	elliottw: Not bad at all, actually.
11:29	elliottw	and i LOVE clojure. i do not love sysadmin
11:29	hhutch	wingy: i disagree with that sentiment... all those things you listed, they are part of the deployed app
11:29	cmiles74	Certainly there are places where it's really useful to be able to use a tool like Vagrant. I'm not convinced that everyone needs to be able to deploy to Rackspace or Amazon's cloud offering.
11:29	hhutch	they're just libraries/resouces
11:29	wingy	they handle deployment .. you handle development
11:29	KirinDave	Well I guess I have the unfortunate situation of working with systems that no one else would ever manage for me
11:29	KirinDave	Like custom kafka->storm solutions.
11:30	KirinDave	Where do I click to get a zookeeper server in heroku? :)
11:30	elliottw	my main concern with things like heroku is that the knowledge is not portable
11:30	hhutch	elliottw: heroku is fairly standard for basic deployments
11:30	elliottw	when/if i go to my own server, all that proprietary stuff would be a waste won't it?
11:30	wingy	you use it when you can .. heroku wasnt here 5 years ago
11:30	gtrak	elliottw: it takes like 20 minutes to deploy a clojure app to heroku... the non-portable knowledge isn't substantial
11:30	cemerick	hiredman: That's the second time in as many days I've seen someone independently validate your startup idea. :-P
11:30	wingy	but time changes
11:30	cmiles74	I hear what you're saying, KirinDave. I was really the Hadoop sysadmin guy until the company was comfortable with the product; at that point I handed it off to FT sysadmin people.
11:30	elliottw	hhutch i mean if i deploy on a vps, it should be really close to deploying on my own server one day
11:31	Hodapp	KirinDave: The advantage to a WAR, as I see it, is that you can deploy it directly in a lot of application servers / servlet containers.
11:31	hiredman	cemerick: look, everyone needs a zookeeper cluster
11:31	elliottw	gtrak touche
11:31	KirinDave	cmiles74: But a jar is just an executable with 2 words before it on the shell tolaucnh. :)
11:31	hiredman	how else are you supposed to run the unit tests for avout
11:31	KirinDave	hiredman: People doing boring things don't need a zookeeper cluster.
11:31	hhutch	elliottw: my 2 cents. make a demo app, deploy it to heroku ... rest a few days, use palletops.com and try to deploy your own server in virtualbox .. then deploy your app using pallet
11:31	cemerick	hiredman: you could do it all lean and stuff, and handle requests on a single server with a shell script to validate demand.
11:32	KirinDave	But the minute you do anything interesting in the distributed space, not using it is crazy unless you're working with erlang.
11:32	KirinDave	If only because distributed process coordination is made so much easier by zookeeper.
11:32	KirinDave	All these ruby asses using Resque and Redis timeout locks like that solves the problem. :\
11:32	Wild_Cat	is there a nice Clojure lib to make HTTP requests (POST/GET/PUT/DELETE -- basically, a Clojure equivalent to http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/index.html )?
11:33	KirinDave	Wild_Cat: https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/
11:33	cmiles74	I'm with elliottw; if you can deploy to Vagrant then you have enough detail handled that you can feel comfortable working with a larger team of sysadmin people.
11:33	KirinDave	Clojure has it so much better than other jvm languages
11:33	cmiles74	Er, IMHO Vagrant + Virtualbox are closely tied; it's worth looking at.
11:33	KirinDave	Working directly with apache's lib is pure pain.
11:34	Wild_Cat	KirinDave: perfect. Looks like exactly what I need.
11:34	KirinDave	Scala has this incredibly goofy Databinder Dispatch library which even the author admits is terrible
11:34	elliottw	i think i'm going with hhutch. make a demo on heroku. pat myself on the back for my first "deployed" web app evar. grab a a drink. dive into server stuff next week
11:35	KirinDave	elliottw: Honestly it sounds like you've done the hard part of server provisioning.
11:35	KirinDave	That first mile is always the most irritating.
11:35	KirinDave	It's near and dear to my heart right now as well. I'm preparing to do a 24-hour hackathon to raise money for charity
11:36	elliottw	this month i've started to learn clojure, it took a whole day to understand github and why the hell version control matters so much, then running my own vps, spending way too much time fiddling with Vim and rainbow parens. it's been a good month
11:36	KirinDave	My goal is to make an eventually consistent low-cost version of hackernews in clojure, using kafka and amazondynamodb
11:36	KirinDave	Gonna try and raise money for adainitiative an the anita borg institute.
11:37	elliottw	KirinDave that sounds like a great project. wish i could help out, but you can obviously tell i have no idea what i'm doing
11:37	elliottw	… yet
11:38	KirinDave	I dunno if I will productize it.
11:39	KirinDave	It's more just to do something fun for charity and answer all these questions I get about site scaling in a way more interesting than a boring slide deck
11:39	wingy	are you guys using jQuery or Google Closure on frontend for DOM interactions?
11:39	elliottw	i hope none of you guys are yc fans, but i find that they are huge dbs a lot of the time
11:40	KirinDave	wingy: Next month we should have clojurescript derived javascript on some of our frontend stuff deployed.
11:40	KirinDave	It's in testing now
11:41	wingy	KirinDave: what does "clojurescript derived javascript on some of our frontend stuff deployed" mean?
11:41	wingy	besides clj my eng is not that excellent :)
11:43	wingy	you mean you will have DOM manipulation built into cljs?
11:45	gtrak	Is there a way to call a specific protocol implementation's method manually without going through the dispatch?
11:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: cljs-324 applies on top of cljs-328.
11:47	dnolen	mmarczyk: ok, thx
11:48	dnolen	gtrak: on Clojure JVM?
11:48	gtrak	ya
11:48	dnolen	gtrak: why would you want to do that?
11:48	gtrak	I can work around it, but just curious :-)
11:48	gtrak	to save me a step from refactoring the implementation into its own function
11:50	gtrak	generally, to decomplect the logic from the arg-type
11:51	dnolen	gtrak: I can't imagine the refactoring taking very much time, since protocol implementations look like regular functions. Just remove the field accesses right?
11:51	gtrak	yea
11:51	gtrak	pretty trivial actually
11:53	wingy	are you like me that don't understand the texts _at all_ but get the examples almost immediately: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/group-by
11:53	wingy	it seems much easier to get something by having something to look at than reading texts
11:54	borkdude	dnolen I asked previously if in the CA you had to describe clojurescript as a seperate project if you want to contribute (not sure if I ever will, but might be handy to include when sending the papers anyway)
11:54	borkdude	dnolen but now I already sent it ;)
11:57	michaelbarton	Could anyone tell me what I am doing wrong here? https://gist.github.com/a4d619e035725b8160ca
11:58	llasram	clojurebot: contrib
11:58	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:58	michaelbarton	I get this error: ava.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/string__init.class
11:59	jweiss	(defmacro [& forms] ... ) how do i fill in the blank so that macro does the same thing with forms as if i'd syntax quoted it? is that possible?
11:59	michaelbarton	I am using leiningen
11:59	llasram	michaelbarton: clojure-contrib is split and gone for >1.3. For clojure.contrib.string, all the good stuff was moved to clojure.string by 1.2 anyway
11:59	zerokarmaleft	michaelbarton: very useful to bookmark that link if you're working off of clojure 1.2 examples
11:59	llasram	>=1.3 even
11:59	dnolen	borkdude: I don't think specifying the projects matters much.
11:59	borkdude	dnolen great
12:00	michaelbarton	I have run lein deps
12:04	llasram	michaelbarton: The particular error you're getting is because clojure-contrib 1.1.0 doesn't include the clojure.contrib.string namespace
12:04	llasram	Oh, oh well
12:05	michaelbarton	I think I just got disconnected
12:05	michaelbarton	I
12:05	michaelbarton	I'
12:06	llasram	To repeat then, michaelbarton: clojure-contrib is split and gone for >1.3. For clojure.contrib.string, all the good stuff was moved to clojure.string by 1.2 anyway
12:06	llasram	oops
12:06	llasram	To repeat the right thing, michaelbarton: The particular error you're getting is because clojure-contrib 1.1.0 doesn't include the clojure.contrib.string namespace
12:07	michaelbarton	I see
12:07	michaelbarton	Thank you
12:07	llasram	BUT
12:07	llasram	clojure-contrib does not work with clojure >=1.3
12:08	llasram	Whatever source of example you're using is out-dated
12:08	michaelbarton	I see
12:08	michaelbarton	I think the example I copied is at the top of the page here - http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html
12:08	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
12:08	llasram	hah
12:09	llasram	Closer, lazybot!
12:09	michaelbarton	I think Rich Hickey's GH repo is the top hit on google for clojure contrib string. For me at least anyway
12:09	dnolen	mmarczyk: patches applied! thx!
12:09	michaelbarton	But then I guess I'm writing the wrong query!
12:10	llasram	michaelbarton: What led you you to be searching for "clojure contrib string"?
12:10	mmarczyk	dnolen: great, thx!
12:10	cmiles74	michaelbarton Indeed, it is.
12:10	llasram	michaelbarton: Here's my recommendation: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.string
12:11	michaelbarton	Not sure really. I think perhaps I have an out of date version of clojure on my system, but I'm fetching the most up to date version in my lein projects.
12:11	llasram	Hmm. Although clojuredocs appears to need an update for 1.4...
12:12	michaelbarton	So I should avoid clojure contrib from now on?
12:13	llasram	michaelbarton: Right. The parts which hadn't already been merged into core were split into their own libraries, as described on http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
12:13	michaelbarton	Good to know, thank you.
12:13	llasram	Well, sans some parts which have been abandoned
12:14	technomancy	deprecation: it's good for the soul
12:14	technomancy	and probably the colon too
12:15	llasram	You can't spell ^:deprecated without a colon!
12:15	michaelbarton	http://clojuredocs.org/ has a link to clojure.contrib, are these depreciated libraries?
12:16	raek	michaelbarton: yes
12:16	TimMc	llasram: Quite the catch-22.
12:16	michaelbarton	OK
12:16	llasram	michaelbarton: They work if you're using Clojure 1.2, but not for later versions
12:16	michaelbarton	That's a little confusing for a beginner like me.
12:17	bsteuber	I'd like noir to store uploaded files in byte-arrays instead of tempfiles, but I can't find the middleware already responsible for it - can anyone help?
12:24	gfredericks	is there a lot of data structure speedup between the current cljs that lein-cljsbuild uses and cljs-HEAD?
12:28	dnolen	gfredericks: no, I think lein-cljsbuild is fairly up to date now.
12:28	gfredericks	k
12:28	gfredericks	maybe I should use a deftype for complex numbers instead of a [r i] vector
12:29	gfredericks	that could simplify the rect <-> polar logic as well
12:30	dnolen	gfredericks: representing types with vectors rarely recommended.
12:31	gfredericks	dnolen: good advice; thx
12:31	tbaldridge	dnolan: so I'm asking this here instead of asking in the mailing list as I don't want to feed the trolls. Your comment about last being a seq function instead of a collection function. I get that. But why is it this way? Is there a reason I'm missing that it can't be polymorphic?
12:32	tbaldridge	I understand that it would make last mean two different things. I guess, I'm wondering why last was defined as a seq function. Or is it just the way it's always been
12:33	dnolen	tbaldridge: Clojure fns are well partitioned against the existing protocols / interfaces. That thread is what I would call an "opinion-fest"
12:33	technomancy	I would guess it's the same reason contains? hasn't been renamed.
12:33	hiredman	,(+ 68 79)
12:33	clojurebot	147
12:33	goodieboy	if I have a regular expression defined within the body of a function, is it created every time i call the function? Would it be better to "def" it out side the function?
12:33	technomancy	it's a trap designed to trick newbies into thinking about big-o notation
12:34	TimMc	clojurebot: contains? is a trap designed to trick newbies into thinking about big-O notation
12:34	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:34	dnolen	tbaldridge: newcomers are going to know the protocol/interface partitioning so they focus on names and "speed".
12:34	dnolen	are not goign to know.
12:35	TimMc	I'm surprised last is even provided, given how some inclusion decisions seem to have been made.
12:36	dnolen	TimMc: that makes no sense. You might have a sequence and you might need to get the last item.
12:37	TimMc	THen you're using the wrong data structure. :-P
12:37	gfredericks	goodieboy: no I think it gets compiled at read-time
12:37	dnolen	TimMc: is Clojure source represented with vectors? or seqs?
12:37	gfredericks	goodieboy: into a java pattern object
12:38	goodieboy	gfredericks: oh really? ok, so no sense in putting it into a def for improved performance?
12:38	gfredericks	goodieboy: I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt it.
12:38	goodieboy	gfredericks: ok thanks, good to know
12:38	gfredericks	goodieboy: I'm assuming it's a regex literal and not something thrown together at runtime
12:38	konr	Are there other graph libraries besides clojure.contrib.graph? It seems that it pressuposes I already have constructed a graph.
12:39	goodieboy	gfredericks: yes, something like #"[0-9]+" etc.
12:39	tbaldridge	dnolan: thanks that helps. I knew I was missing something. I will now sit and ponder this until enlightened.
12:40	TimMc	dnolen: (I know, just idly playing devil's advocate.)
12:41	tbaldridge	what I find funny about all this though is that C# reacts exactly the same way in this situation. Using Linq to do (List<int> f).Last() will do a linear scan. So I agree that people just never think about how common this position really is.
12:41	uvtc	Didn't know clojuredocs.org still pointed to the v1.2 monolithic contrib. Thanks, michaelbarton for pointing it out. Updated: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/libs-available.html#contrib and added note about monolithic vs. modular contrib.
12:41	tbaldridge	and that syntax was crap, but you get the idea
12:42	brainproxy	konr: what kind of graphs are you wanting to construct?
12:43	konr	brainproxy: simple, undirected; maybe with some weight in the edges
12:45	brainproxy	konr: okay, well there's a java based graph database called orientdb, and there's a clojure wrapper for it, called orient-clj (I think)
12:46	brainproxy	whoops, clj-orient: https://github.com/eduardoejp/clj-orient
12:47	konr	thanks, brainproxy!
12:48	nDuff	...Atlassian has a bunch of javascript libraries they inject into the headers during page render; I'm unclear on this point as to how to make them available at build time, and how much of an impediment it's going to be if that isn't feasible.
12:50	brainproxy	nDuff: for advanced compilation, you'd probably need to work up an externs file, like you have to do for adv comp of cljs libs that make use of jayq
13:09	dakrone	so I haven't really announced anything about it yet, but I would really appreciate people giving https://github.com/dakrone/lein-clojuredocs a try with their lein2 project, just to make sure the generating is working
13:09	dakrone	and opening an issue on the project if it doesn't work
13:15	uvtc	s/awy/way/
13:15	uvtc	(sorry, wrong window)
13:18	justdit	sorry to ask, but couldn't find any working library for oauth. clj-oauth seems not working with clojure > 1.2
13:19	technomancy	justdit: for simple use cases just clj-http is plenty
13:19	technomancy	you can authenticate against github's oauth implementation in ~7LOC
13:20	justdit	technomancy: yep, it's the only solution I've for now
13:21	duck11231	justdit: are you sure? I was using clj-oauth with 1.3 the other day and it worked fine for me.
13:22	duck11231	I was using "1.3.1-SNAPSHOT" if it makes any difference
13:42	notbrent	could anyone link me to a simple noir project on github that you would recommend reading to get a sense of how to build web apps in clojure?
13:51	RickInGA	notbrent: have you looked at the documentation at webnoir.org
13:52	technomancy	clojars is a mid-sized real-world clojure web app
13:52	RickInGA	notbrent: at the bottom of http://webnoir.org/tutorials there is a link to a sample blog built with noir
13:52	technomancy	it's compojure, but compojure is awesome
14:02	borkdude	is there a function called left or right, like (fn [a b] a), (fn [a b] b)? not the first time I have this question I think
14:03	technomancy	(comp first list)?
14:03	TimMc	borkdude: Sample input and output?
14:03	TimMc	Oh, misread as "left to right".
14:03	borkdude	TimMc for example in use with merg-with
14:04	TimMc	In that case I'd prefer the inline fn: (fn [old new] new)
14:05	TimMc	With well-named args, you don't have to remember argument order.
14:07	borkdude	I might be mistaking but I remember from lambda calculus these functions had standard names like left and right
14:08	borkdude	can't find it through google though
14:09	wingy	i thought about one thing .. data is data in memory .. so if memory could be increased or harddisks as fast as memory that would mean that we dont have to have databases?
14:09	wingy	since everything is stored in memory and it's persistent between shut downs
14:13	nDuff	wingy: You'd still want a query interface. You'd still want a centralized source of truth for distributed operations, and a way to have semantics for avoiding or resolving conflicts.
14:13	technomancy	borkdude: in SKI calc each fn only has one arg, so some of those notions don't apply
14:14	technomancy	but that's basically what comping list onto it does; it makes it so there's only one arg
14:14	wingy	nDuff: since it's just data in lets say in persistent memory then we could just use the functions provided in clojure to get what we want
14:14	borkdude	technomancy yes: (lambda x (lambda y x)) and (lambda x (lambda y y))
14:14	wingy	filter .. map .. find etc
14:14	ldopa	borkdude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#Church_booleans
14:14	wingy	nDuff: isnt that correct?
14:14	nDuff	wingy: Doesn't address the problem of distributed systems.
14:15	wingy	nDuff: ok lets go to the extreme case
14:15	wingy	its not only persistent memory, but infitite in size
14:15	nDuff	...which still doesn't address synchronization issues.
14:15	nDuff	Doesn't matter if you can afford to store a copy of everything everywhere
14:15	borkdude	ldopa ah that's it, the true and false "values as functions"
14:16	wingy	one computer to host your database .. like the only memory you have (like every person only has one memory)
14:16	wingy	but replicated for backup
14:16	nDuff	wingy: Asynchronous replication still leaves you with the exact same synchronization issues.
14:16	wingy	nDuff: that would make things simpler than today?
14:16	wingy	nDuff: but there is no synchronyzation .. everything is in one space
14:17	nDuff	wingy: Synchronous replication means... that you need to decide on the tradeoffs you're going to take to have it in the first place.
14:17	nDuff	sigh.
14:17	nDuff	wingy: ...so, you put everything in one place, and then you have latency getting to that one place from your geographically distributed DCs, and you have failover issues.
14:17	nDuff	wingy: The problems don't go away.
14:17	technomancy	wingy: this might be relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
14:18	wingy	right
14:18	wingy	i was just thinking about using clojure functions to query data
14:18	nDuff	Datomic is actually a pretty big deal along those lines
14:18	wingy	if those could be persistent .. why have another query lang
14:18	nDuff	but it doesn't "get rid of databases"
14:18	shawnlewis	persistence isn't related to the query language
14:19	nDuff	nodnod.
14:19	shawnlewis	you could have an on disk database that you query with map, filter etc
14:19	kmicu	"get rid of databases" ;]
14:19	shawnlewis	I should say disk-backed rather than on disk
14:20	nDuff	...though having the query language be amenable to optimization is a rather big thing.
14:20	nDuff	hence folks writing code in imperative programming languages using declarative query languages.
14:20	borkdude	using clojure reducers would be useful there too: less intermediate results
14:21	borkdude	I guess..
14:22	cgag	i need to read more about reducers, i had trouble wrapping my head around them the first time i read the announcement
14:23	amalloy	cgag: the general thrust is that as long as your end-goal is a reduce, you don't need laziness in the middle
14:24	amalloy	(reduce + 0 (map inc coll)) could be written as (reduce (fn [acc x] (+ acc (inc x))) 0 coll)
14:24	wingy	when i saw how data was organizated easily in clojure i thought it had to have good use cases: (group-by #(rem % 3) (range 10))
14:25	amalloy	and the reducer framework provides versions of lazy functions like map that instead of producing a lazy sequence just transform your reduce function
14:25	wingy	db -(data)-> app server -(data)-> browser .. if it's the db query lang that filters, organizes the data etc .. then i wouldn't use clojure functions as much in app server or even in browser with cljs
14:26	borkdude	amalloy nice summry
14:30	cgag	is doing that reduction over the lazy-seq significantly slower than using that alternative?
14:34	amalloy	yes
14:34	cgag	that's a good summary though, I'll go reread hickey's post with that in mind
14:36	borkdude	we tried to read through the reducer "framework" (library?) and wondered what happens if you don't have that third party library around in java 6
14:37	borkdude	the one with jsr166y.ForkJoinPool.
14:37	amalloy	borkdude: you can't use fold
14:37	borkdude	amalloy will it throw errors, or what?
14:38	amalloy	probably
14:38	borkdude	amalloy we tried running with and without, we thought we saw some performance difference, but no erros
14:38	borkdude	erros
14:38	borkdude	errors (grr)
14:38	borkdude	amalloy I didn't know if we used fold though, I think just mapping and reduce
14:38	amalloy	you didn't use fold, then
14:39	borkdude	amalloy so the difference we have seen must be co-incidence?
14:40	amalloy	yes
14:40	amalloy	well, maybe not
14:40	amalloy	there might be some operations that implicitly use fold if possible, but i don't think so
14:41	borkdude	amalloy mapping -> map from reducers I mean
14:44	borkdude	cemerick I would love to know what that tweet about lifestyle business is about ;)
14:50	cemerick	borkdude: Just another typical holier-than-thou revenue-less startupper pissing on someone's profitable life's work.
14:52	qubit[01]	well now I want to read it
14:52	cemerick	I probably shouldn't bother reacting…but I hate seeing people chasing the lottery for the wrong reasons.
14:53	technomancy	cemerick: never hate, only ever destroy
14:53	technomancy	=)
14:53	cmiles74	I'm sure their startup project is incredibly clever and original. Surely not something like another top news site or grocery list manager.
14:54	cemerick	technomancy: Working on it. :-) In the meantime, I'm a weak, weak person.
14:54	cemerick	The Twitter snark slurry calls with its siren song, etc.
14:54	TimMc	"It's like Bitcoin meets ZocDoc."
14:54	TimMc	http://nonstartr.com/
14:56	cemerick	TimMc: Oh, sweet.
14:58	cgag	It's like Klout, but for self-proclaimed social media experts.
14:58	cgag	this thing is great
14:58	cmiles74	"It's like Fliboard meets Chatroulette" See, I know that could work. :P
14:59	TimMc	Half joke, half useful? :-P
15:04	amalloy	wait, when did (= 1 1.0) become false? 1.4?
15:05	hiredman	1.3 I would expect
15:06	hiredman	(since that is lame, and 1.3 is lame)
15:06	dnolen	1.3
15:09	dustingetz	clojure 1.3 has clojure.contrib.map-utils/deep-merge-with
15:09	dustingetz	how can i get that in clojure 1.4
15:09	dustingetz	i'm having trouble googling for this, maybe it didn't get ported, how can i find the answer to that myself
15:09	dustingetz	and should i be re-implementing this?
15:11	dustingetz	separate question, im not sure i want deep-merge-with - i want to merge two deeply nested maps, but i want to combine maps at nested level
15:11	dustingetz	is there an api for this, or do i need to do it myself
15:17	gtrak	hey guys, just curious, where in the source do these get implemented: static public interface OODD{double invokePrim(Object arg0, Object arg1, double arg2);}
15:17	gtrak
15:18	amalloy	gtrak: (defn f ^double [x y ^double z] ...)
15:19	gtrak	ah.. hmm, codegen?
15:22	gtrak	ah, found it: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#5176
15:22	dustingetz	it might be (deep-merge-with merge map1 map2)
15:24	dustingetz	seems to work
15:24	dustingetz	so, how can i get access to deep-merge-with (defined in 1.3 clojure.contrib.map-utils) in clojure 1.4
15:24	dustingetz	i'm about to just copy paste it from the clojure.contrib source
15:26	technomancy	cemerick: oh, for the record "never hate, only ever destroy" wasn't chastising you, it was quoting a blog post
15:26	technomancy	http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/never-hate-only-ever-destroy.html
15:26	cemerick	technomancy: Yup, I know. :-)
15:27	technomancy	I realized that could have come across wrong
15:27	cemerick	It's probably his best piece of work.
15:27	technomancy	agreed
15:27	timvisher_	technomancy: so there's definitely something about the mac that makes swank.cdt work for lein2
15:27	timvisher_	just tried it again under windows and it's still broke…
15:27	timvisher_	same version and everything
15:28	cemerick	Funnily enough, I think he has me blocked.
15:30	technomancy	timvisher_: hm; apple cleaning up after oracle's messes? that'd be a pleasant role reversal.
15:30	technomancy	cemerick: from what I gather he's a bit of an unstable personality
15:31	timvisher_	technomancy: for reelz
15:31	xeqi	technomancy timvisher_: https://maven.apache.org/general.html#tools-jar-dependency
15:31	xeqi	looks like its included on the runtime already for osx
15:31	xeqi	*the classes are
15:32	timvisher_	xeqi: well looky there…
15:32	technomancy	xeqi: makes me wonder how good of an idea auto-activated profiles based on JDK version or OS would be
15:35	timvisher_	what do the scope and systemPath elements do?
15:35	timvisher_	can i configure those in leiningen?
15:36	timvisher_	i do have tools.jar in my filesystem
15:36	xeqi	timvisher_: you can add a scope in lein, but I don't think it affects anything
15:37	xeqi	there is no systemPath equivalent
15:37	timvisher_	nor, apparently, does tools.jar exist in central either, so that won't help me :(
15:37	timvisher_	manually add it to the classpath?
15:38	xeqi	in maven: scope allows you to specify wether a dependency is needed at compile time, run time, expect to be on the classpath already, etc
15:39	xeqi	you could try to add it to the classpath, though lein2 does not have an "official" way to do so
15:41	timvisher_	xeqi: know how to do it unofficialy?
15:43	xeqi	hmm, theres a mailing list thread where technomancy mentions adding it to :resoure-paths might work
15:44	xeqi	though you wouldn't want to jar/uberjar it like that
15:45	timvisher_	i'm more interested in seeing if that resolves the problem
15:45	timvisher_	i just really badly want cdt to work right now
15:46	kovasb_	the locals clearing issue makes it not worth it for me personally...
15:57	timvisher_	kovasb_: was that in reference to cdt?
15:58	kovasb_	yup
15:58	timvisher_	care to explain?
15:58	timvisher_	i'm still trying to try out cdt, so any negative opinions would be helpful
15:58	kovasb_	have you heard of the locals clearing problem?
15:59	kovasb_	looks like it might have been fixed in 1.4
15:59	timvisher_	i had not
16:00	kovasb_	the problem was you couldn't actually see the values of your "variables" when you stepped through the program
16:00	nDuff	(clearing locals is desirable in some cases -- not doing so can lead to lazy sequences' heads being held onto unnecessarily -> memory leaks)
16:00	kovasb_	right
16:00	timvisher_	ah
16:00	timvisher_	when i've gotten it working on my mac, the locals were visible just fine
16:00	kovasb_	the idea is to change the behavior for development purposes. hence the compiler flag
16:00	timvisher_	except in some cases, like in java files etc
16:01	nDuff	timvisher: the question is whether they're still visible after the last time when they can potentially be referenced
16:01	kovasb_	when i was playing around with it last year it was killing me
16:01	timvisher_	i understood it be somewhat non-deterministic
16:01	timvisher_	nDuff: understood
16:02	kovasb_	are you using it in emacs?
16:02	timvisher_	yes
16:03	PeregrinePDX	Ah a productive day at work. Setting up a clojure development environment and showing some things off to co-workers.
16:04	timvisher_	PeregrinePDX: did it go well? ^_^
16:04	timvisher_	i still have horrific memories of a time i tried to give a demo of emacs and my system basically spent the whole time crashing
16:04	PeregrinePDX	Well other then I am pretty new to clojure and wasn't able to give answers to everything. It went ok.
16:05	PeregrinePDX	We had some fun playing around with Overtone despite the fact that it's completely unrelated to work.
16:11	Hodapp	PeregrinePDX: Overtone does look interesting.
16:12	Hodapp	Too bad I'm music-tarded.
16:12	timvisher_	,(long 7)
16:12	clojurebot	7
16:12	timvisher_	is that a boxed long?
16:12	timvisher_	or a `long`
16:15	amalloy	both, depending on context
16:15	timvisher_	cool
16:15	Gnosis-	amalloy: am I correct in thinking that it doesn't matter, because it's immutable in Clojure?
16:16	amalloy	i don't see how that's relevant
16:16	Gnosis-	okay
16:17	amalloy	i think it usually doesn't matter because clojure is dynamically typed, but on occasion (eg for performance reasons) it matters
16:17	gfredericks	have there been any languages with mutable numbers?
16:17	amalloy	yes
16:17	cgag	i'm sure i've read about that
16:18	cgag	redefining the value of 2
16:18	technomancy	gfredericks: can't you reopen Fixnum eigenclasses in ruby?
16:18	gfredericks	technomancy: Fixnums have a single-word representation I think
16:18	duck11231	2 = 2.5 ;; that way my radiohead test passes
16:18	gfredericks	and so almost certainly are copied by value
16:18	amalloy	clojure/java have mutable Integer objects if you hack them with reflection
16:19	gfredericks	technomancy: "no virtual class for Fixnum"
16:19	hiredman	which, since auto boxed numbers are cached, is a Really Bad Idea(tm)
16:19	amalloy	indeed
16:19	wingy	wow .. free versioning of data for free
16:19	wingy	there is free lunch!
16:20	technomancy	gfredericks: you can redefine + on Fixnum though
16:21	qubit[01]	you guys use conditions alot ? In the book I'm reading he is seperating the two out, one function does the work, the other is just conditions
16:21	gfredericks	technomancy: sure, at the class level; that's not stored per-number
16:22	wingy	nDuff: ok so if the only server is down, then it's down .. no more keeping things in sync
16:22	wingy	nDuff: kinda like if i die, then i die
16:22	wingy	nDuff: wouldn't that be better than having sync issues
16:24	nDuff	wingy: If you're the person taking that attitude, you're _not_ the person being hired to run high availability for a site where downtime means real and immediate financial losses.
16:24	nDuff	("the only server"? Heh.)
16:25	TimMc	amalloy: Huh, wallhacks can remove "final"?
16:25	hiredman	final gets no love
16:25	wingy	lucky me im not a real programmer :) .. i so hate duplicated functionalities
16:26	technomancy	wingy: if you're interested in this problem there's lots of background reading you could do, starting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
16:26	hiredman	http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2011-10-27-final-fields-part-2
16:26	wingy	aight
16:27	wingy	nDuff: that was cool
16:27	qubit[01]	this book has #(catt (dec n )) , but hasn't explained what # does, whats that called ?
16:27	TimMc	function literal syntax
16:28	TimMc	&'#(+ % 5)
16:28	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [p1__14540#] (+ p1__14540# 5))
16:28	cgag	,(#(* % %) 5)
16:28	clojurebot	25
16:34	nDuff	wingy: ...also, "the only server" is fantasy beyond a given scale. Services eventually need to cluster, and their nature doesn't always allow them to be stateless or uncoordinated.
16:35	qubit[01]	,(#(* %1 %2) 5 20 )
16:35	clojurebot	100
16:38	gfredericks	qubit[01]: it's the #(...) syntax specifically, not just "#"; the "#" plays several different syntactic roles
16:39	qubit[01]	hmm
16:40	hiredman	# means "use the other dispatch table in the reader"
16:40	TimMc	qubit[01]: # tells the reader to do something different with what follows.
16:40	gfredericks	qubit[01]: clojure.org/reader
16:40	hiredman	so the normal dispatch table in the reader sees { and reads a map, the other dispatch table sees { and reads a set
16:41	hiredman	so { starts a map and #{ starts a set
16:41	hiredman	in the normal dispatch table ( starts a list, in the other dispatch table ( starts a function literal
16:41	hiredman	so ( starts a list and #( starts a function literla
16:41	Gnosis-	how compatible are the JVM, CLR, and JS versions of Clojure?
16:41	hiredman	literal
16:42	hiredman	barely?
16:42	TimMc	Gnosis-: I'm sure (+ 1 2) will work the same way in all of them. :-P
16:42	gfredericks	TimMc: not really
16:42	gfredericks	considering numeric types
16:42	TimMc	haha
16:42	hiredman	clojurescript doesn't have vars
16:43	Gnosis-	that does not sound good. what about compatibility with concurrency and lazyseqs?
16:43	hiredman	clojureclr has to deal with clr types, and not erased generics
16:43	gfredericks	Gnosis-: cljs has little need for concurrency. but it does have atoms
16:43	gfredericks	does it have agents?
16:43	hiredman	and the jvm types that you use in clojure are not available in ither of the others
16:43	gfredericks	I wanted future the other day but it didn't have it
16:43	wingy	nDuff: perhaps the questions is then: 1. could we proxy our data in clojure so that where the data is stored is irrelevant. no need to use SQL anymore to get/filter/group etc. do whatever you are doing in clojure for that 2. could we have our database bundled together with our backend .. no need for a TCP connection between server and database .. your db is running in your app (think neo4j could do that)
16:43	hiredman	javascript doesn't have threads
16:43	qubit[01]	hiredman, ok :)
16:44	TimMc	gfredericks: No blocking.
16:44	hiredman	futures and agents run on threads
16:44	ivan	browsers have Worker and SharedWorker
16:44	ivan	too bad they're more like Erlang processes
16:45	hiredman	trivial programs, or highly algorithmic programs (no i/o, no concurrency, etc) may port
16:45	Gnosis-	ah, okay. what about only between JVM and CLR?
16:46	hiredman	the same really
16:46	Gnosis-	oh :(
16:46	ivan	CLR has no leiningen
16:46	hiredman	well, you might be able to get away with more
16:46	gfredericks	TimMc: oh right
16:46	gfredericks	TimMc: so I wanted defer then :)
16:47	wingy	nDuff: im just day dreaming about a transparent way of working with data where db specific lang doesn't matter
16:47	gfredericks	why doesn't clojure have defer?
16:47	hiredman	what is defer?
16:47	hiredman	,(doc delay)
16:47	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"
16:48	hiredman	,(doc promise)
16:48	clojurebot	"([]); Alpha - subject to change. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. All subsequent derefs will return the same delivered value without blocking. See also - realized?."
16:48	hiredman	,(doc future)
16:48	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. See also - realized?."
16:48	gfredericks	hiredman: a future where you don't care about the return value
16:48	hiredman	must be one of those 3
16:48	gfredericks	future-for-side-effects
16:48	hiredman	gfredericks: that is just future
16:48	Raynes	gfredericks: That's a thread, right?
16:48	Raynes	Well, not really.
16:48	Raynes	If you don't get the return value of a future, you don't even see exceptions.
16:48	gfredericks	hiredman: but delay is useful in CLJS, while bringing in future by name would be a bit weird
16:49	gfredericks	which I assume is why it hasn't been done
16:49	nDuff	wingy: datomic is pretty close in some respects -- but familiarity with the current solutions and their limitations might be a good place to start, such to have better grounding for generating _potentially useful_ daydreams..
16:49	hiredman	js is just so horrible, as a language and a runtime
16:50	gfredericks	I'll not argue with that
16:50	nDuff	wingy: ...if you don't understand the problem space, you're just going to be reinventing square wheels (and there've been a lot of them).
16:50	wingy	i guess
16:51	wingy	oh its rich hickeys
16:55	ordnungswidrig	does anybody know about functional lenses for clojure? I know that for maps there is update-in and get-in.
16:58	gfredericks	assoc-in as well
16:59	wingy	nDuff: in the datomic video, by apps he means my backend server in clojure?
16:59	gfredericks	,(apropos "-in")
16:59	clojurebot	(unchecked-inc-int gen-interface get-in with-in-str ns-interns ...)
17:00	Scorchin	How are people doing integration testing of web apps (compojure) with their full stack? E.g. running server, loading pages, making javascript calls, etc.
17:00	Cheiron	Hi, why I'm getting this error when trying to bootstrap ClojureScript? http://pastie.org/4170908
17:00	technomancy	Scorchin: take a look at what clojars uses; it's pretty great but the name escapes me at present
17:00	technomancy	xeqi wrote it
17:01	Scorchin	technomancy: thanks!
17:02	Scorchin	technomancy: I'm also considering whether to separate out my JS (not ClojureScript I'm afraid) or to keep it in the same repo. If I was to keep it within the same repo, is there an idiom for folder placement of the JS files and their related tests?
17:03	technomancy	I don't know anything about JS, sorry
17:04	xeqi	Scorchin: I've got a couple libraries for staying in ring, no server up/js testing
17:04	xeqi	kerodon could still use some work, but the basics are there
17:04	xeqi	theres clj-webdriver for full stack stuff
17:04	wingy	Scorchin: i would keep all source files for a project within the same repo
17:04	xeqi	which could load something like jasmine for js unit testing
17:05	Scorchin	xeqi: thank you
17:05	Scorchin	wingy: but the question is, what directory?
17:06	Scorchin	wingy: I don't just want a plain JS file, I want to hook up full unit and integration tests of the JS and how it interacts with the Clojure code I've written
17:07	wingy	sorry cant give any advices on that .. very new to clojure
17:07	Scorchin	To keep things simple I was thinking about separating the repos just so I can have lein for the Clojure stuff and Rake + Jasmine for the JS. I'd then create minified/packaged artefacts which I can publish when a build is green for the JS app
17:07	wingy	so JS is for the client?
17:07	wingy	how about /server/..
17:07	wingy	/client/..
17:07	Scorchin	yup
17:07	Scorchin	no, the server is written in Clojure
17:08	wingy	dont mix different langs/tools in root
17:08	wingy	yeah thats what im saying .. perhaps keeping clojure things in /server/ and js things in /client/
17:08	wingy	or clojure things in root/
17:08	wingy	and there you have root/client/
17:09	wingy	where root is the root for your project /
17:09	Scorchin	hmmm, true
17:09	wingy	simple .. makes sense
17:09	wingy	ive done that in other projects
17:13	wingy	i dont know about splitting them up .. the server usually serves the client stuff .. i would have it in one repo
17:14	wingy	but im coming from node.js where this is pretty standard .. the js back and front is kinda tied together
17:26	adu	how do I add a key-value pair to a hash-map?
17:27	gtrak	adu: assoc
17:27	adu	thanks
17:30	goodieboy	is it possible to use gen-class, to define nested classes, and then refer to the nested class in a parent class method?
17:32	amalloy	just write java, man
17:35	gfredericks	assemble strings of java source and then shell out to javac
17:35	hiredman	just don't write nested classes
17:35	hiredman	inner classes are a figment of the java language, the jvm doesn't care
17:36	goodieboy	thanks!
17:37	gfredericks	hiredman: I guess that means there would be no reason whatsoever for clojure to support it, even if we all thought they were fantastic?
17:37	wingy	rich is really a genious .. cool perspectives
17:37	wingy	makes me wanna use datomic asap
17:38	hiredman	gfredericks: correct
17:38	aperiodic	gfredericks: i wish it did, so i could add counters to my mapreduce jobs without writing a java wrapper, but that's more of an issue with hadoop sucking.
17:39	hiredman	aperiodic: how does hadoop require you to use inner classes?
17:40	hiredman	I am pretty sure that is not enforcable
17:40	technomancy	rlb: I heard wheezy was going into a freeze tomorrow (!)
17:41	rlb	I'm building as we speak ;>
17:41	technomancy	godspeed
17:41	rlb	Had a couple more problems I had to fix.
17:41	rlb	But I think we may be OK now.
17:42	aperiodic	hiredman: it appears to require static enum in the class you give to hadoop
17:42	hiredman	:\|
17:42	goodieboy	in a class that extends another (via gen-class) ... how do you call the super method?
17:42	hiredman	and uses reflection to find it
17:42	hiredman	ugh, that is horrible
17:42	aperiodic	like i said, hadoop sucks
17:43	aperiodic	it's very capable, but it sucks in so many ways
17:44	gfredericks	convincing a generation of devs that OOP is a good idea has some very weird results
17:45	aperiodic	goodieboy: you'll need to use gen-class's :exposes-methods to rename the super and then call the renamed method on an instance of your gen'd class
17:45	goodieboy	aperiodic: cool thanks!
17:58	atoi	Ahh, good, there is a clojure room. I figured there would be. :)
18:05	adu	why does noir use an old version of hiccup?
18:06	Raynes	adu: It does?
18:11	gfredericks	deftype in cljs does not generate factory functions?
18:11	adu	noir 1.2.1 uses hiccup 0.3.7
18:11	gfredericks	nm it does
18:12	rlb	technomancy: I've uploaded emacs24 to unstable
18:12	rlb	don't know how long it might take to get through NEW
18:12	xeqi	adu: that was the version of hiccup that was out when 1.2.1 was released
18:12	rlb	note that the emacs metapackage still points to emacs23
18:13	eck	adu: https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/blob/master/project.clj
18:13	eck	master/head is up to date
18:13	adu	so if I change 1.2.1 to noir 1.3.0-beta10 then it should work?
18:14	eck	hopefully
18:14	Urm3l	hey guys
18:14	Urm3l	i am really new to clojure and i have a problem
18:14	Urm3l	can i use records as keys in a map?
18:14	technomancy	rlb: so it sounds like the freeze doesn't apply if the package is in sid by tomorrow?
18:15	rlb	technomancy: hopefully; suppose we'll see.
18:16	gfredericks	oh maybe it doesn't
18:16	Urm3l	i defined coordinates as records and have them stored in a hashmap with the matching value but get always returns nil if i use it with a similar coordinate record
18:17	technomancy	Urm3l: are you sure you want records?
18:17	technomancy	when you're starting out you usually don't
18:18	Urm3l	At Uni we had half a year of scheme and we did everything with records there.. so i thought it might work out
18:18	Urm3l	but we never used hashmaps in scheme anyways..
18:19	scottj	Urm3l: (defrecord point [x y]) (get {(point. 1 2) "cool"} (point. 1 2)) => "cool"
18:20	Urm3l	is (point. 1 2) equivalent to (->point 1 2) ?
18:20	technomancy	Urm3l: I mean it should work, but I'd stick with the big 4 types for your first 3 months in clojure
18:20	aperiodic	Urm3l: the rule of thumb is to stick with to maps by default, and only move to records if you need a) fast dispactching for multimethods or b) to implement some protocols/interfaces using the record
18:20	augustl	are there any canonical ways of serializing and deserializing clojure data structures to disk?
18:20	Urm3l	o god i am stupid
18:20	Urm3l	i mixed up the arguments -.- i put the hashmap second
18:21	Urm3l	Ok so how would you implement coordinates?
18:21	Urm3l	i am trying to do some kind of game of life implementation
18:21	technomancy	vectors are good for that
18:21	rlb	augustl: for some purposes, read and prn might be sufficient.
18:22	scottj	Urm3l: I think the result of (point. 1 2) and (->point 1 2) is the same, but ->point is a function so you can pass it to functions.
18:22	xeqi	&(doc pr-str)
18:22	lazybot	⇒ "([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"
18:22	augustl	it'll just be vectors, maps, numbers and strings
18:23	augustl	I'll look up those, thanks
18:23	Urm3l	ok ill give vectors a try
18:23	Urm3l	thanks a lot
18:24	scottj	Urm3l: when you want to use records, normally use maps. this might be an exception if it's just [x y]
18:24	aperiodic	i use maps that look like {:x 1, :y 2}, since i find it hard to remember that (nth coord 0) means "get the x component of coord"
18:25	aperiodic	inices are hard, guize
18:25	aperiodic	s/inices/indices
18:25	aperiodic	spelling is hard, too
18:26	aperiodic	although i guess with destructuring that objection becomes moot: (let [[x y] coord] ...)
18:29	scottj	aperiodic: until you use more than one point, then you have to name all the individual x's and y's. ssyntax is nice here. a.x a.y b.x b.y
18:30	aperiodic	scottj: that doesn't resolve as a package-qualified classname?
18:32	augustl	so, I just found https://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-json. Now I want to figure out what to add to my project.clj. Is there a tutorial out there for that?
18:32	augustl	no idea where to search to find the package name and version
18:32	technomancy	augustl: use cheshire
18:32	technomancy	that library is deprecated
18:32	augustl	ah
18:32	scottj	aperiodic: I think the class a.x would be unaccessible (trying to find my hacked clojure to try it out)
18:33	scottj	aperiodic: there are other options, such as a!x or a:x
18:33	augustl	that tutorial I requested would still be useful though, the next time I find a library :)
18:33	technomancy	augustl: try `lein help tutorial`
18:33	augustl	cool, thanks :)
18:34	technomancy	sure thing
18:35	aperiodic	scottj: my understanding of symbol resolution is that that would cause an error, and http://clojure.org/evaluation agrees
18:36	aperiodic	scottj: but yeah, using something like a\|x would let you keep destructuring without losing much in the way of readability
18:37	aperiodic	is it bad that one of my favorite features of clojure is just that you can stick almost anything in symbols?
18:37	gtrak	,$#@
18:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: $# in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:40	gtrak	,($#&&&&&& 5) ; <-- I can't believe this one hasn't been used yet
18:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: $#&&&&&& in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:40	aperiodic	why wasn't the @ in the symbol in your first example?
18:41	gtrak	hmm... guessing @ is a reader macro?
18:41	gtrak	,(read-string "$#@")
18:41	clojurebot	$#
18:41	gtrak	,(read-string "$#@53")
18:41	clojurebot	$#
18:41	gtrak	,(read-string "$@53")
18:41	clojurebot	$
18:41	aperiodic	ok, that's a good reason
18:41	scottj	aperiodic: one of my favorite features of clojure is that few clojure libraries use entirely non-alphabetical function names.
18:43	lynaghk`	ping: dnolen
18:43	dnolen	lynaghk`: pong
18:43	lynaghk`	I found an issue with core.match on CLJS, but I'm not sure if it's a bug or design change.
18:44	dnolen	lynaghk`: when it comes to core.match, probably a bug :)
18:44	lynaghk`	Should protocols be namespaced in cljs? I.e., should we be writing "cljs.core.ILookup" or just "ILookup"?
18:45	augustl	is it possible to generate XML with hiccup? It seems to be able to handle tagsoups, so I suppose I could just write the "<?xml ... ?>" tag as a string, by hand
18:45	lynaghk`	core.match uses the former style, which stopped working in cljs 2aeb3d8.
18:46	amalloy	augustl: don't do it, man. use data.xml
18:46	lynaghk`	dnolen: i.e., in the latest cljs release (satisfies? ILookup {:a 1}) gives true, but (satisifies? cljs.core.ILookup {:a 1}) is false.
18:46	augustl	amalloy: what's data.xml?
18:46	Raynes	It's a library.
18:46	Raynes	https://github.com/clojure/data.xml
18:46	amalloy	$google github clojure data.xml
18:46	lazybot	[clojure/data.xml · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure/data.xml/
18:46	atoi	arguments in Clojure are just separated by whitespace? hmm
18:47	dnolen	lynaghk`: oof, that sounds like a bug in CLJS, ticket please!
18:47	Raynes	atoi: You can separate them with commas if you want, but they're just whitespace too.
18:47	amalloy	commas are for languages where everything is a special case
18:47	atoi	gotcha.
18:47	augustl	Raynes, amalloy thanks
18:47	lynaghk`	dnolen: so both cljs.core.ILookup and ILookup should work? I'll open a ticket.
18:47	dnolen	lynaghk`: oh right, yeah jonasen brought this up but I've been busy - cljs.core/ILookup will work.
18:48	atoi	I'll probably continue to have obvious questions for the next few hours, though I'll check the docs. This one just didn't google well.
18:48	atoi	Riemann is forcing me to learn Clojure. :)
18:48	dnolen	lynaghk`: but I'm starting to think that either cljs.core.ILookup or cljs.core/ILookup should work.
18:48	gtrak	&,(#(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,inc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,5))
18:48	lazybot	⇒ 6
18:49	aperiodic	Riemann? I thought he was dead.
18:49	chrisln	I was looking for some clojure material and found this: http://vimeo.com/14709925 it's so awesome T_T wondering if anyone could recommend me some material on clojure game prog/opengl integration?
18:49	lynaghk`	dnolen: or ILookup, right? Since that core is imported to every file.
18:49	atoi	aperiodic, :) http://aphyr.github.com/riemann/index.html
18:50	technomancy	wow, a deb?
18:50	amalloy	augustl: search that readme for "hiccup", btw - data.xml supports a hiccup-style syntax as well as the "standard" one that's rather bulku imo
18:51	augustl	amalloy: nice!
18:52	aperiodic	chrisln: there's penumbra (https://github.com/ztellman/penumbra), but if you just wanna mess around with making pretty things in clojure i'd highly recommend quil (https://github.com/quil/quil)
18:53	chrisln	aperiodic: that looks awesome, I'll surely take a look!
18:53	chrisln	aperiodic
18:53	chrisln	btw, anything on game prog?
18:54	chrisln	not exactly libs or stuff like that, more like resources or books or tutorials, perhaps?
18:55	aperiodic	chrisln: there's tetris and asteroids implementations in penumbra/src/example. haven't found much on the way of guides or tutorials on writing games in clojure
18:57	chrisln	aperiodic: oh, I see.. that's a shame tho, I really wanted to get into clojure game programming, just not sure where to start :(
18:59	kovasb	so i just upgrade to the new clojurescript build
18:59	kovasb	and now I'm getting java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
18:59	kovasb	at clojure.lang.RT.nthFrom(RT.java:784)
19:00	kovasb	when I try to compile my cljs.. anyone seen this?
19:00	lynaghk`	kovasb: yeah, I just got some of that myself
19:00	kovasb	ouch
19:00	kovasb	did u figure out what it was?
19:00	lynaghk`	kovasb: cleaning seemed to make it go away.
19:00	kovasb	lemme try that
19:00	aperiodic	chrisln: yeah, my impression is that there's not a whole lot of game programming in clojure going on (the overwhelming use-case seems to be web apps). do you have much of a functional background?
19:01	lynaghk`	kovasb: not really. I've been tracking down other new cljs bugs. Today has been, "hey, wait. This worked before, I swear" debugging party :/
19:01	gtrak	chrisln: I made a little game loop and physics simulation (mostly works) with quil if you want to take a look: https://github.com/gtrak/quilltest/
19:01	kovasb	hmm still getting it
19:01	kovasb	i did lein clean and lein cljsbuild clean
19:01	chrisln	gtrak: thanks dude, I'll surely do!
19:01	kovasb	FML
19:02	lynaghk`	kovasb: I'm out of ideas then, sorry dude. I'm just leaving. I'll catch you later if I find out what's up.
19:02	chrisln	aperiodic: but do you think it's not something clojure could do quite well?
19:02	kovasb	thanks! catch u later
19:02	aperiodic	chrisln: oh yeah, definitely.
19:03	chrisln	aperiodic: to be quite honest, I don't. I have some background in non-functional languages, like Pascal, Python, Java, Ruby, etc. I've started learning the concepts a few days ago, with Haskell and Lisp
19:03	chrisln	aperiodic: and I wanted to focus on game prog, just don't know how, haha
19:04	aperiodic	chrisln: there are guides to writing games in other dialects of lisp (http://nostarch.com/index.php?q=lisp.htm), so that might be a better place to start
19:05	chrisln	aperiodic: oh, I read that book, but it's focused on CLisp :/
19:05	Iceland_jack	chrisln: If you're interested in serious game programming, for certain values of serious, languages like Haskell and Clojure would not be your best bet
19:06	technomancy	but, but ... rain cat!
19:06	chrisln	Iceland_jack: well, I know it'd be better to do some C++ or Java or even C#/XNA programming, but I really liked the way functional programming works, and I'm not trying to make the next WoW, just want to have fun, haha
19:06	technomancy	are you saying http://raincat.bysusanlin.com/ is not serious? =)
19:06	aperiodic	i don't think the languages aren't up to the task, but there's definitely not a development community that could help you out. you'll be figuring out a lot of stuff on your own.
19:06	Iceland_jack	I tried qualifying that as much as I possibly could
19:07	chrisln	I think aperiodic is right, that's exaclty the problem..
19:07	Iceland_jack	Languages with GC are generally not up to the task of making graphics and AI intensive games at all
19:07	gtrak	Iceland_jack: at least as good as XNA
19:07	chrisln	exactly*
19:08	Iceland_jack	but if chrisln is more interested in functional programming than in actual game development then using fun projects like games as a motivating factor is a good idea
19:08	chrisln	but I'm not trying to make Crysis on Clojure, just some nice small 2D/3D ones..
19:08	aperiodic	well, there are a fair amount of games written in java these days, though not AAA ones
19:08	chrisln	indeed :D
19:09	gtrak	though I think C#'s native-bindings are a bit better than java's, and the XNA framework is pretty neat itself
19:10	chrisln	how available are the Java libs to Clojure programming?
19:10	chrisln	(noob question, btw)
19:10	gtrak	chrisln: fully
19:10	Iceland_jack	very
19:10	chrisln	is that so?
19:10	Iceland_jack	sic.
19:10	gtrak	,(.toString "Hells yea!")
19:10	clojurebot	"Hells yea!"
19:10	chrisln	so Clojure is like the functional side of Java? it even runs on JVM, doesn't it?
19:11	Iceland_jack	Clojure is almost wholly unrelated to Java the language
19:11	chrisln	ok, I didn't express my point quite well
19:11	chrisln	I meant, I can use the power of the Java as if I were writing Java game applets, but with the nice functional side of Clojure?
19:12	chrisln	of the Java libs*
19:12	gtrak	Iceland_jack: I think that's not quite right.. clojure can do java-style stuff just as well or better
19:12	gtrak	it's a thin layer on top
19:12	gtrak	of bytecode, not java-source
19:12	Iceland_jack	That depends on how much you mean by “Java the language” in that it's not a “functional side” of it
19:13	chrisln	for example, could I use "paint", "sleep" and "threads" in clojure?
19:13	Iceland_jack	yes
19:13	chrisln	hm, that's quite interesting
19:14	aperiodic	chrisln: if your question is 'can i use java game development library X', it will always be possible to do so (regardless of X), but it may or may not be pleasant
19:14	gfredericks	there's a very good chance it won't be less pleasant than doing it in java though
19:14	Iceland_jack	True
19:15	chrisln	that's kinda exciting, my background in Java may be of some help
19:15	Iceland_jack	It could also be a daunting task to tackle game dev and functional programming at the same time if you're new to them
19:15	jayunit100	ha yeah : big mistake I made was trying to couple clojure to other new stuff i was learning.
19:15	gtrak	what's so hard about FP?
19:16	technomancy	gtrak: unlearning bad habits
19:16	Iceland_jack	It's different in a lot of ways
19:16	gfredericks	gtrak: trying to learn it while thinking in OOP
19:16	chrisln	well, as long as I have good resources on learning stuff.. I'm used to getting beat down by prog languages, lol
19:16	gtrak	yea.. for some reason immutability just wasn't that big a deal to me? Everyone seems to fuss about it
19:16	jayunit100	if you try to learn FP and GP at the same time you'll end up writing mediocre clojure code for boring games. :) better to start with something like sorting algorithms, database i/o, file parsing, etc… stuff you already know.
19:16	clojurebot	clojure is like life: you make trade-offs
19:17	Iceland_jack	gtrak: Immutability means you can't do a (def value (inc value)) quite the same way as you might do a value++;
19:17	gtrak	I always hated value++ anyway, it was hard to read
19:17	Iceland_jack	which is fundamental enough to some paradigms that it's enough to make people annoyed
19:17	gfredericks	Iceland_jack: I do that stuff a surprising amount at the repl :)
19:18	gfredericks	gtrak: so apparently you're problem is you think imperative code is hard :D
19:18	gfredericks	s/you're/your/
19:18	chrisln	can I tweak the stuff I import from Java on CLojure
19:18	chrisln	Clojure*?
19:18	gfredericks	tweak?
19:18	Iceland_jack	Probably means modifying their value?
19:18	chrisln	ok, bad choice of words, redefine, perhaps?
19:19	gtrak	gfredericks: I guess... :-)
19:19	technomancy	if the java lib uses interfaces and abstract classes in the right places, then you can have tons of flexibility
19:19	gtrak	hence, why is FP supposed to be hard?
19:19	technomancy	but some java libs hard-code a lot of things
19:19	chrisln	:/
19:19	gtrak	the thing I find most hard about clojure is just the dynamicity and code-organization
19:19	Iceland_jack	gtrak: other people people may have different experiences to you?
19:20	aperiodic	gtrak: i think, ultimately, because people in general grok turing machines much more readily than the lambda calculus
19:20	gfredericks	that's only because there's a greek letter in it
19:21	gtrak	Iceland_jack: perhaps, I think telling someone they're going to have a hard time with a conceptually simple thing sets up the wrong expectation
19:21	Iceland_jack	gfredericks: and the fact it includes the word “calculus” isn't going to set up mental barriers? ;)
19:21	aperiodic	gfredericks: probably want to get rid of 'calculus' while you're at it
19:21	Iceland_jack	hah exactly
19:21	gfredericks	W-codez
19:21	gtrak	if you write code and aren't thinking about what you're doing for 15 years, then I suppose yes, it's a hassle
19:21	gfredericks	Lambda-Machines?
19:22	Iceland_jack	Bobby Machines
19:22	Iceland_jack	friendly name, Bobby
19:22	gfredericks	done
19:22	aperiodic	marketing coup of the century
19:22	gfredericks	guys bobbymachines.com is available
19:22	gfredericks	not sure how it's been overlooked this long
19:22	technomancy	"little Bobby tables, we call him"