#clojure – 2012-06-28

2012-06-28

00:24	gert	hi! Is there a way to get the values of a transient map? (vals (transient {})) doesn't work (because the transient map doesn't implement ISeq)
00:55	denysonique	hey
00:55	denysonique	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/string__i
00:55	denysonique	I installed Clojure by apt-get install clojure on Ubuntu
00:56	denysonique	(use 'clojure.string) throws the above error
00:56	mybuddymichael	denysonique: Use leiningen instead.
00:56	TheBusby	denysonique: you probably want to use leiningen instead
00:56	denysonique	thanks
01:06	technomancy	Raynes: most conference recording is very short-staffed, but I think in the case of InfoQ they spread them out to guarantee a continual stream of traffic
01:16	lynaghk`	New C2 release, including some new data-binding and computed-observable stuff that may be of interest to anyone developing cljs apps: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/KCe96DbMD6k
02:24	ktsuji	technomancy: I've started using leiningen2 and found that when I use lein run, "All namespaces already :aot compiled." is outputted to stdout even after it has been compiled once.
02:24	ktsuji	this didn't happen in leiningen1 but is there a way to turn off that output? I did some searching but could not find out the solution so far.
02:27	ktsuji	this goes the same with lein trampoline run as well.
02:28	ktsuji	I'm using Leiningen 2.0.0-preview7.
02:34	antares_	ktsuji: can you post your project.clj?
02:34	SrPx	When I define a function with (defn [a b] etc...) can I get the form I used after?
02:35	SrPx	I read clojure programs can modify clojure programs easily. What that is supposed to mean.
02:36	antares_	SrPx: defn just defines a var but you can print it back to string that Clojure reader can read
02:37	SrPx	what?
02:37	antares_	I think "loading code and transforming it" case is pretty rare. It is more common to use a concise DSL that generates forms once.
02:37	antares_	SrPx: lets start with what Clojure reader is
02:37	antares_	SrPx: do you know what parser is?
02:38	antares_	parsers take strings and produce abstract syntax trees, a tree of code elements
02:38	antares_	in Clojure, they just produce Clojure forms
02:38	antares_	,(read-string "1")
02:38	antares_	clojurebot: hello?
02:38	SrPx	but for example, I want to code a function search functionality that will search for some patterns on my source code's functions... I wonder if that is possible (I mean besides the ugly way)
02:38	SrPx	antares_: hm
02:39	amalloy	antares_: clojurebot is dead, long live lazybot
02:39	SrPx	antares_: sure
02:39	amalloy	(he's actually just disabled for a while)
02:39	antares_	amalloy: ok
02:39	antares_	SrPx: try (read-string "1") or (read-string "[1 2 3 4]") in the REPL
02:39	SrPx	okay
02:39	amalloy	&(read-string "1")
02:39	lazybot	⇒ 1
02:40	antares_	SrPx: of course, all programming languages have parsers, the difference is, at best you typically can only get an AST for some code in e.g. Ruby or Python
02:40	muhoo	stuff added with pomegranate doesn't show up in (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
02:40	muhoo	is ther eany way to get a complete classpath that includes stuff added with pomegranate?
02:40	amalloy	muhoo: no such classpath exists
02:40	antares_	SrPx: in Lisps and Clojure in particular, you can get, transform (if needed) in Clojure itself and it will be compiled
02:41	amalloy	pomegranate uses a separate classloader, not the classpath-based classloader
02:42	muhoo	ah, but is there any way to get a list of what its classloader thinks is loaded? kind of alike a "lein2 deps :tree" output, but from within the repl?
02:42	antares_	SrPx: but there may be many ways in which you use it in practice. For example, defn is a macro and it does code transformation and it is written in Clojure itself, it is not something special Clojure compiler has support for
02:42	SrPx	AST?
02:42	antares_	SrPx: defn basically expands to (def fn-name (fn [a] …)), more or less, and it will attach docstring to the var it defines if you provide it, its. So it has some logic inside that generates code.
02:42	antares_	SrPx: AST is that tree structure that parsers produce
02:43	SrPx	antares_: and after that?
02:44	antares_	SrPx: after defn has done its work and defined a var, it is compiled to JVM bytecode (for JVM Clojure) and your program uses that var by calling the function in it or passing it around
02:44	SrPx	hmm
02:45	SrPx	but wait
02:45	SrPx	(fn [a b c] (+ a b c))
02:45	antares_	SrPx: the point is that all code in almost any reasonably popular language can be represented by a tree and that's what compilers, IDEs, code tools and so on actually use. They do not use strings per se, strings are parsed to trees and then trees as used.
02:45	SrPx	this is all compiled into bytecode?
02:45	antares_	SrPx: (def myfn (fn [a] a)) is compiled to bytecode, yes
02:45	SrPx	I mean, clojure doesn't keep track of the fact it is a function with 3 arguments that uses the other function "+"...
02:46	antares_	what do you mean does not keep track?
02:46	antares_	there are things the compiler does check, like references to vars that do not exist
02:47	antares_	other than that, it just takes those forms and turns them into JVM bytecode for JVM to execute
02:47	antares_	SrPx: a more advanced example, have you seen http://sqlkorma.com ?
02:48	antares_	it basically lets you write Clojure forms that are "compiled" to SQL, with some nice features about it
02:48	antares_	Korma manipulates Clojure data structures quite a bit to make that happen
02:48	SrPx	antares_: no, I mean I thought it keept it stored as ([a b c] (+ a b c)) (not in text, but with the reference to "+" and info regarding the position of the arguments).
02:49	SrPx	and then called the machine code when you tried to access its value
02:49	antares_	SrPx: it is "stored" but in the bytecode form. When you load a namespace or file in Clojure, it is compiled. Including at runtime.
02:49	antares_	there is no interpreter or interpreted mode
02:49	SrPx	I'll see it hold on
02:50	antares_	so yes, you have information about + and your own functions at runtime, they are stored in namespaces (which are basically map/dictionary-like things)
02:50	SrPx	antares_: this is pretty (=
02:52	amalloy	SrPx: clojure doesn't keep track of + in some way; once it sees (fn [x y] (+ x y)) it emits bytecode that says, basically, "look up the symbol + in the namespace clojure.core, resolve it to a var, and then call theVar.invoke(x, y)"
02:52	SrPx	antares_: but back to the problem, how can I write a program that will allow me to search for a function by name, arity, etc., in some clojure files?
02:52	amalloy	after that, it throws away all the information it used to construct the bytecode
02:52	SrPx	antares_: actually wait, I can just read all the code can't I
02:52	ktsuji	antares_: just the template project.clj reproduces this issue.
02:52	ktsuji	(defproject test-lein2 "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"
02:52	ktsuji	:description "FIXME: write description"
02:52	ktsuji	:url "http://example.com/FIXME"
02:52	ktsuji	:license {:name "Eclipse Public License"
02:52	ktsuji	:url "http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html"}
02:53	ktsuji	:dependencies [[org.clojure/cloju
02:53	antares_	SrPx: your program would load said files and then use runtime information about functions to perform searches. But as amalloy points out, not everything is preserved for runtime. But you also treat code files like data structures and implement searches over arity, etc. This is how clojuredocs.org analyzer works, more or less.
02:53	ktsuji	sorry the last line is :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]])
02:53	SrPx	amalloy: theVar.invoke(x,y) wouldn't that cause it to run imediatedly
02:54	SrPx	antares_: sure, thanks (=
02:54	amalloy	the bytecode emitted is not immediately executed; it's loaded into the .invoke method of a new class that represents your function
02:55	SrPx	hmmm
02:56	SrPx	oh and, does clojure has any kind of support for events?
02:57	antares_	what events?
02:57	antares_	events are produced by libraries and parts of a program, any language can support them
02:58	antares_	I/O, network, fs events and so on are available through JDK libraries, 3rd party libraries that build on top of that and so on
03:02	SrPx	I just mean a way to define this behavior: an object that can fire an event and other objects can sign in to listen it and get a callback called when it does happen
03:03	SrPx	eh also some lib for keyboard/mouse events but I can just google that
03:05	SrPx	for example...
03:06	SrPx	on Python you can say value = input("What is your decision?")
03:06	SrPx	and then do something with that input
03:06	SrPx	you could (defn get-input [prompt] (println prompt) (read-line)) and then just do the same on clojure
03:06	SrPx	but I feel like it is the wrong way?
03:07	Raynes	Nothing wrong with that.
03:07	SrPx	I guess the 'right' way to do it would be to have a kind of object representing the prompt... have it fire an event when the user writes something... and let whoever signs to it deal with the event
03:08	SrPx	something like (watch input-machine enter-text (fn [text] (println text)))
03:08	SrPx	"on" in the place of watch would make it more readable
03:09	SrPx	Raynes: what do you think
03:09	michaelr`	depends if you want to block on input or not
03:09	SrPx	I don't mean it's wrong just not the way Clojure was supposed to work, I guess
03:09	Raynes	shrug. Seems like two different problems.
03:10	SrPx	michaelr`: not!
03:10	michaelr`	events are good sometimes but they can also turn into a mess in a medium to big application
03:10	SrPx	really? why?
03:10	michaelr`	events sphagethi
03:10	Raynes	lazybot is entirely event-based.
03:10	SrPx	how?
03:10	Raynes	<3 events
03:10	SrPx	Raynes: <3
03:10	SrPx	so can I do it? create a class that can fire events and can be signed for those events?
03:11	Raynes	Well, Clojure isn't object oriented, so it's best to stop thinking in terms of objects and classes and the like.
03:11	denysonique	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/server_socket__init.class or clojure/contrib/server_socket.clj on classpath: (server.clj:0)
03:12	denysonique	when I try to run $ clojure myscript.clj
03:12	michaelr`	well, let's say that when the application grows it is harder to keep track of all the evented connections in the application, thus methods such as mvc developed to make it a bit more manageable (backbone.js as an in example from the js world)
03:12	denysonique	in the lein repl I can import it fie
03:12	denysonique	fine*
03:13	michaelr`	SrPx: think an event which triggers a function which modifies a model which in turn triggers multiple events subscribed to the changed property on that model and so on
03:13	denysonique	michaelr`: re backbone, what is a good Clojure library for exposing a RESTful API for Backbone.js?
03:14	michaelr`	denysonique: sorry, my experience with backbone was on .net :)
03:15	denysonique	echo "(use 'clojure.contrib.server-socket)" \| clojure
03:15	muhoo	trying to use korma to get access to an sqlite3 db, and getting this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3349 when doing (select foo (:limit 1)) or (select foo (:order :ASC)). but just (select foo) seems to work
03:15	michaelr`	denysonique: but i guess the default would be compojure or noir
03:15	denysonique	results in Clojure 1.2.1
03:15	denysonique	user=> java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/server_socket__init.class or clojure/contrib/server_socket.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
03:16	denysonique	works fine when I pipe that into lein repl
03:16	SrPx	michaelr`: hm
03:16	denysonique	How do I use clojure.contrib with /usr/bin/clojure?
03:17	denysonique	'clojure.contrib*
03:18	amalloy	denysonique: i think the answer is: never use /usr/bin/clojure, it's not designed to do anything actually-good
03:18	Raynes	You don't 'install' Clojure, so your 'clojure' thing isn't going to work the way you want. Use Leiningen. If you want to run a script, make a project with leiningen.
03:18	Raynes	And regardless, clojure-contrib was split into several independent libraries ages ago, so you probably don't want that either.
03:19	adu	omg
03:19	adu	I just tried clojurescript
03:19	adu	:D
03:19	denysonique	and what is it like?
03:19	amalloy	speaking of which, let me tell you how good it feels to just be like "i'ma start a new project, put 1.4.0 in project.clj, and require some libraries" and have it just work. the pain of 1.3.0 is finally over
03:20	adu	denysonique: return [cljs.core.str("Hello "),cljs.core.str(n)].join(''); … beautiful!
03:20	Raynes	amalloy: Feels even better to only have :requires in my ns in non-library projects. :>
03:20	denysonique	adu: what is the output of this?
03:20	denysonique	or lisps
03:21	adu	denysonique: it's what (defn greet [n] (str "Hello " n)) compiles to
03:21	adu	denysonique: might be called "Hello " + x in other languages
03:21	denysonique	right
03:21	denysonique	that looks nice
03:21	denysonique	nice js output
03:22	adu	denysonique: yes, yes it is
03:22	adu	denysonique: how long have you been into clojure?
03:23	denysonique	just installed it about an hour ago
03:23	muhoo	amalloy: what was painful about 1.3 that is fixed in 1.4?
03:23	adu	denysonique: I have a great command-line app I wrote a couple days ago
03:23	Raynes	Dynamic vars.
03:23	Raynes	For one.
03:23	amalloy	muhoo: well, a few things. but mostly the pain was in going from 1.2 to 1.3+
03:24	muhoo	oh gawd, i missed that transition, and i'm damn glad i did. :-)
03:24	amalloy	and now that everyone's basically done that, 1.4 is just as easy as 1.3
03:25	muhoo	cool. maybe i should just try 1.4 and enjoy the uneventful non-breakage then
03:26	denysonique	adu: I would like to see it
03:27	denysonique	adu: What do you think about ClojureScript on the serverside on node.js?
03:29	adu	https://gist.github.com/3009680
03:29	adu	denysonique: I don't
03:29	adu	I'm a big fan of compilers to JavaScript, but I'm not a big fan of node.js
03:30	denysonique	why?
03:30	adu	the idea of node.js is great, but the way it's implemented doesn't respond well to scrutiny
03:33	adu	besides, if you're doing stuff on the server-side, then I would think clojure->jvm would be the way to go
03:33	adu	unless you have an existing node.js code base you need to integrate with
03:41	adu	denysonique: anyways
03:41	adu	the commandline app is similar to the 'mustache' command-line tool
03:59	xumingmingv	any usecase for clojurescript?
04:00	adu	a webgl app?
04:04	xumingmingv	dont know whether front-end developer would like to change from javascript to clojurescript?
04:04	xumingmingv	or clojurescript is for backend-developer to write front-end code?
04:04	xumingmingv	or it is for writing code to run on v8 engine on backend?
04:05	adu	if you have a code base for your server logic, then it's nice to use that in client logic too
04:13	ro_st	xumingmingv: writing clojure client and server side makes things like github.com/shoreleave possible
04:39	muhoo	what would be the current state-of-the-art if i wanted to just get a hello world going in cljs, possibly with some stuff like crate and fetch up in the mix too?
04:42	ro_st	isn't there a lein project template for cljs?
04:42	ro_st	and the lein-cljsbuild plugin
04:44	ro_st	muhoo: you could probably grab this and remove noir (or not, as you prefer): https://github.com/ibdknox/cljs-template
04:45	ro_st	it includes fetch, crate, jayq, noir, and noir-cljs: https://github.com/ibdknox/cljs-template/blob/master/src/leiningen/new/cljs_template/project.clj
04:55	muhoo	fantastic, thanks
04:59	ro_st	i can't wait to start playing with cljs myself
05:00	muhoo	i have a few weeks off, and my two goals are 1) cljs, and 2) datomic
05:00	ro_st	isn't datomic like really expensive?
05:00	ro_st	you can't just grab it and use it like you would mongo?
05:00	muhoo	that's what they want you to think :-)
05:01	muhoo	it's free for the first 2 peers, IIRC
05:01	muhoo	plus you can run it using postgres instead of the amazon thing.
05:01	ro_st	peers meaning one app instance and one database server
05:02	muhoo	i'll find out over the next 2 weeks :-) but they spell it out here: http://datomic.com/product/pricing
05:03	ro_st	nice
05:03	ro_st	enjoy. fun learning new things
05:04	muhoo	i'm old, so learning new things really isn't fun. but learning BETTER things, that i enjoy. and datomic has got to be better than what i've had to deal with so far in db-land.
05:08	ro_st	old? what, like, 30? -grin-
05:09	_nmmn	im old too then :\
05:09	ro_st	(i'm 33)
05:09	_nmmn	and you are old also ;]
05:40	ro_st	seconded
05:46	ro_st	BIKKIT
05:54	muhoo	hm... ok.... https://www.refheap.com/paste/3350
05:54	muhoo	looks like the only thing uglier than java stacktraces is cljs stacktraces
05:55	muhoo	also looks like there's no "use" or "require" in cljs?!
06:02	ro_st	muhoo: this livecode might be instructive
06:02	ro_st	https://vimeo.com/43808810
06:02	ro_st	code from the talk https://github.com/bodil/mylittlecthulhu
06:08	muhoo	thx
08:25	maaruks	where is source code of clojure 1.4 ?
08:27	maaruks	omg github :-)
08:56	antares_	maaruks: Clojure is at github.com/clojure/clojure
09:03	progo	uuuglyyy. I have to update more than one value in a map. Nested update-ins aren't elegant.
09:12	llasram	&(-> (update-in {} [:first] (fnil inc 0)) (update-in ,, [:second] (fnil conj []) :value))
09:12	lazybot	⇒ {:second [:value], :first 1}
09:12	llasram	progo: What abotu that?
09:12	llasram	well, looks nicer when you align the `update-in` forms, but you get the gist
09:13	progo	llasram, I guess that has to do :)
09:27	chico_chicote	hi all. i'm trying to launch a standalone swank-clojure server, but i can't find the executable (downloaded it with leiningen2)
09:27	chico_chicote	any tips?
09:28	ro_st	you need lein-swank installed
09:28	ro_st	then you can simply lein swank
09:41	antares_	ro_st: heya
09:41	chico_chicote	ro_st: if i lein swank, i get a 'Couldn't find project.clj, which is needed for swank'
09:42	chico_chicote	from what i understand, this means i must be in a leiningen project, right?
09:42	chico_chicote	isn't there a way to just launch a standalone server?
09:42	duck1123	lein swank should work standalone
09:42	duck1123	but it's just as easy to create a dummy project
09:42	duck1123	lein new foo; cd foo; lein swank
09:43	duck1123	that way you have a project file for your next question "how do I add a library"
09:43	S11001001	or "how do I change clojure versions to something recent"
09:48	ro_st	antares_: :-) howdy
09:49	antares_	ro_st: you are a monger user if I remember correctly, is this right?
09:50	ro_st	yes, daily at the moment
09:50	antares_	ro_st: ok. Is there anything you want to see improved in the docs?
09:52	ro_st	aside from the one or two things i mentioned before ( :nested.field.access and the simplest way to get the :_id for a newly inserted document ), not really
09:52	ro_st	also, i was thinking it might be handy for monger.core to have a convenience fn for ObjectId
09:52	ro_st	so that we don't have to import it all the time - makes repling that bit easier too
09:52	antares_	ro_st: there are a few in monger.util
09:53	antares_	ah, I see
09:53	antares_	well, you still have to refer to monger.core functions
09:53	ro_st	ie, {:_id (new-object-id) :myField 1 :myOtherField 2} etc
09:55	wingy	when i learned node.js the main concept was: one thread -> do async style! in clj, immutability, everything is an expression
09:56	duck1123	I'd like one like this https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/src/jiksnu/model.clj#L219 so I can pass an id or just get a new one
09:57	ro_st	yeah that looks great
09:57	antares_	duck1123: the real problem is monger.collection/insert which returns write concern
09:57	antares_	that was a mistake but it is too late to change what is returned
09:57	antares_	what we can do I guess is use a subclass that effectively works like a Clojure map
09:58	duck1123	Yeah, that was the biggest issue for me when I switched
09:58	duck1123	I've had to resort to always generating my own id
09:58	antares_	ok, I will think about
09:58	ro_st	i think pre-setting the id is better
09:58	antares_	duck1123: that's what I do, too
09:58	ro_st	for testing
09:58	ro_st	by making that the 'way', it makes testing automatically easier
09:58	antares_	ro_st: MongoDB Java driver tries to mutate the object you insert
09:58	antares_	but we don't return it
09:59	antares_	we can add a new function but all the options I have suck
10:00	antares_	insert-map, insert-doc, insert! are all not very good names
10:01	duck1123	perhaps a monger.sweet with a higher-level api ?
10:02	antares_	duck1123: hm, no, I don't like "sweet API" namespaces
10:02	antares_	the entire API should be sweet, why have sweet and bitter parts :)
10:02	antares_	I think returning a subclass of WriteResult that acts like a Clojure map + has the actual document may work
10:04	antares_	we can also call the next release Monger 2.0 and break this thing
10:04	antares_	I am open to that
10:04	antares_	anyway, my question was mostly what is missing in the docs :)
10:05	duck1123	more information about different ways to dynamically create queries
10:05	antares_	with monger.query?
10:05	foxdonut	antares_: do you know of anyplace one could host a webapp with clojure and mongo?
10:05	antares_	foxdonut: heroku
10:06	antares_	with the mongolab addon. Or is it monghq. Or both.
10:06	antares_	Monger supports connections via URI, specifically for those platforms
10:06	ro_st	yup. you can have it running in 10 minutes
10:06	ro_st	super easy
10:11	foxdonut	antares_, ro_st: great, thanks
10:12	duck1123	antares_: yes. I don't even know if this is possible, or how you'll go about it, but I know I'll need it soon. Looking for ways to compose the query options. (in response to external parameters)
10:12	antares_	duck1123: it is possible
10:12	duck1123	I figured it was. I'm sure I can figure it out, but it's not in the docs
10:13	antares_	duck1123: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/test/monger/test/querying_test.clj#L253-287
10:13	antares_	yeah, ok
10:13	antares_	I am finishing the indexing guide tonight
10:13	antares_	then I can work more on querying and maybe How-Tos
10:13	ro_st	indexing, awesome. i still need to do that
10:14	ro_st	it's pretty straightforward i believe
10:14	wingy	is there a favorite CSS preprocessor in Clojure world?
10:15	ro_st	wingy, don't think a clojure one exists
10:15	ro_st	i use sass, works for me
10:15	wingy	aight
10:15	antares_	wingy: LESS has a Lein plugin
10:16	duck1123	are you looking to generate css from clojure, I think there is one, it's in my following list, have to find it
10:16	antares_	which uses the official Java compiler
10:16	antares_	works great for me
10:16	wingy	antares_: i find SASS better alternative .. LESS seems less maintained
10:16	antares_	I don't do much frontend development so I can't speak about sass but i had huge issues with haml before
10:17	antares_	haml is the single library I absolutely hate
10:17	ro_st	haml isn't great. sass is fantastic
10:17	wingy	duck1123: not necessarily from clojure .. from a higher level CSS like SASS/Stylus etc .. but I am opened to any suggestion
10:17	antares_	it is developed by people who don't give a damn about any sort of compatibility
10:17	wingy	seems that with clojure you can have a DSL for everything
10:17	antares_	and sass is developed by the same dude
10:17	wingy	perhaps in the future it would be simpler to just generate CSS from clj?
10:17	antares_	https://github.com/paraseba/cssgen
10:17	wingy	like you do with HTML
10:17	antares_	wingy: you can with https://github.com/paraseba/cssgen :)
10:18	wingy	hmm seems unmaintaned
10:18	wingy	is it abandoned?
10:18	ro_st	2 months ago
10:18	wingy	oh 2 months ago
10:18	ro_st	that's pretty recent
10:19	ro_st	maybe it does everything it should, already :-)
10:19	wingy	yeah .. im used to node.js maintainance .. they are having far more watchers and maintainence
10:19	wingy	like 8 hours ago .. 2 days ago...
10:19	wingy	:)
10:19	wingy	2000+ watchers
10:20	wingy	is it bad thing to couple styling with clojure code
10:20	wingy	since now you cannot outsource styling to designers
10:20	wingy	and developers might do a terrible job in styling
10:29	scriptor	don't a lot of projects use enlive or something like it for layout?
10:29	TimMc	wingy: Eh, they can learn it.
10:29	scriptor	if designers have to touch the html…I wonder how easy that is for them
10:30	TimMc	It's a restricted subset of Clojure.
10:33	TimMc	paraseba doesn't look like it can handle some important things like embedding values in selectors, e.g. a[href="$FOO"]
10:33	TimMc	If you don't give a convenient way to escape data values for embedding in syntax, you're gonna break something.
10:34	TimMc	Or rather, the people using your lib will.
10:37	foxdonut	wingy: there is also https://github.com/briancarper/gaka
10:39	foxdonut	I used this fork for more recent clojure version: https://github.com/crimeminister/gaka
10:39	foxdonut	pretty simple (and effective) stuff.
10:40	antares_	wingy: commits does not necessary mean maintenance and node.js break things every release (as told me by a person working at a Node.js cloud platform provider)
10:41	antares_	0.8 has so many serious changes that we have a blog post going out mentioning them for travis-ci.org users
10:42	antares_	what sucks about some Clojure libraries is that their developers never have any docs or state what Clojure versions are supported
10:47	wingy	gaka seems really unmaintained
10:47	wingy	one of my rules is to never use unmaintained repos
10:48	wingy	the library ecosystem seems so small compared to ruby/node
10:48	antares_	that's a good rule to live by
10:48	wingy	thats the only disadvantage of clojure in my opinion
10:50	wingy	but on the other hand i can ditch libs like: LiveScript, prelude-ls (which is LiveScript's std lib), async (for node.js async style), sugar (utility methods since JS lacks a lot)
10:50	wingy	what is the best way to make HTTP requests?
10:50	duck1123	clj-http or aleph.http if you want async
10:51	wingy	duck1123: is there really synced http requests?
10:51	antares_	wingy: yes, there are sync HTTP clients, what's the problem?
10:51	wingy	antares_: not used to it haha
10:52	antares_	async is not silver bullet. clj-http uses a thread pool under the hood, people build Web crawlers with it just fine
10:52	wingy	as long as it works with high concurrency i have no problems
10:52	wingy	have to investigate on thread pool and how clojure does things
10:52	antares_	wingy: if you take Java libraries into account, Clojure has access to more libraries that most languages. And some of those libraries are very mature and pretty good.
10:53	wingy	antares_: oh yeah forgot that
10:53	wingy	that should make npm and gem seem like baby poops
10:53	wingy	and then i can use JS libs/frameworks on frontend with cljs
10:54	wingy	so more power than JS only!
10:54	duck1123	In many cases, it's easier to make a sync request in a different thread than an async one with a callback. (depends on the situation)
10:54	wingy	duck1123: how much does the thread take in memory?
10:55	wingy	will server manage 100 000 http requests at once?
10:55	wingy	duck1123: did you mean this one: https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/
10:56	duck1123	depends, how awesome is your server? yes
10:56	wingy	but node.js can make 100 000 without needing a very great server .. seems it so cheap with async operations
10:56	wingy	since it ..
10:57	duck1123	there's also an clj-http-async (or something) but I just use aleph since I'm already using it
10:57	wingy	ok i have to yet decide what to use
10:57	duck1123	If you think async is going to be important for you, check out lamina/aleph
10:59	uvtc	antares_, Do you mean Java standard libraries, or 3rd-party Java libs? Or both?
10:59	wingy	duck1123: so it boils down to async with one thread: aleph/netty and sync with many threads: noir/jetty .. is this correct?
11:01	antares_	uvtc: 3rd party but JDK itself has plenty of good parts and if you have to do any kind of work that involves a lot of PKI, TLS and related stuff, JDK is a life saver compared to Ruby, Python and (I am sure) node.js
11:02	uvtc	My guess is that new Clojurians who have no experience with Java have very little idea what 3rd-party libs are available, or where to find them. Is there a "clojure-toolbox" for Java?
11:02	wingy	heh .. error in the book
11:02	wingy	(reduce max [0 -3 10 48])
11:02	wingy	;= 10
11:03	cemerick	wingy: yeah, we'll be haunted by that :-\|
11:03	cemerick	Of all the things…
11:03	wingy	cemerick: but why did he do like that?
11:03	duck1123	not quite. Noir sits atop it all and can be used with either jetty or netty/aleph. Both of them don't care what you're doing with threads, but with aleph, you get a channel that you can asyncronously emit your response to
11:03	wingy	why use reduce
11:03	wingy	ah
11:03	wingy	the collection is a []
11:04	metellus	you could also use apply in that case
11:05	wingy	yeah
11:05	antares_	uvtc: in practice if you want a library for a data store or something NLP or IR related, there is always a Java library, often an official Java client for your store and so on. There are "clojure toolboxes" with 100+ projects each in the Java world: Apache, Eclipse, even Codehaus
11:06	antares_	uvtc: search.maven.org may be useful. But typically finding a library is not a problem. A bigger problem is finding an easy to use or wrap, well documented library and knowing which alternative to pick. But it's a good problem to have in my opinion.
11:07	wingy	i wonder if i would enjoy working in FP style if I haven't done OOP
11:07	foxdonut	wingy: most of the time I agree but for something as simple as taking a clojure data structure and generating css, there isn't a whole lot to maintain
11:07	uvtc	clojurebot: IR
11:08	uvtc	antares_, NLP == "natural language processing"? "IR"?
11:08	TimMc	Information Retrieval
11:08	wingy	perhaps the reaction would be .. "OOP looks so natural, not like math, i want a book for my app so i create a book"
11:09	uvtc	TimMc, sounds like something out of the ministry of information. :)
11:09	TimMc	wingy: You still "create a book", it just doesn't have methods attached.
11:10	TimMc	The difference is in how code is applied to data.
11:10	wingy	yeah
11:10	antares_	uvtc: information retrieval, search and indexing. Lucene and related projects.
11:10	wingy	there is a good slide that explains what i have realized very well looking
11:11	uvtc	antares_, thanks for the info. Yes, pretty good problem to have (need to choose among alternatives). Perl's CPAN seems to have some of that issue.
11:11	wingy	http://www.slideshare.net/smartrevolution/how-a-clojure-pet-project-turned-into-a-fullblown-cloudcomputing-webapp
11:11	wingy	page 92
11:11	antares_	uvtc: I think all mature communities do, to some extend Python has it, too
11:12	wingy	to page 100
11:12	antares_	uvtc: Clojure's sweet spot is data processing, things like Web crawling, large scale stream processing, indexing and so on. those things in the Java ecosystem really shine. clojurewerkz.org is so focused on DB clients for the same reason.
11:12	cmajor7	is there a way to include dependency (e.g. [clj-time "0.4.3"]) just for a single repl session, e.g. without creating a project?
11:13	antares_	uvtc: also, statistics, math, linear algebra, machine learning in Java are well covered. One of the best in its kind. Of course, some things (like LESS and SASS implementations) are in significantly worse shape and it does affect Clojure
11:13	duck1123	There are some libraries and functions that allow you do manipulate the classpath, but you get into some dark magic there
11:14	cmajor7	duck1123: you mean https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate ?
11:15	uvtc	cmajor7, I think there's a lein plug-in for that ...
11:15	wingy	perhaps thats one of the main benefit of using clojure .. there isn't a huge pool of libs compared to OOP langs since you don't need any
11:15	wingy	or not that much
11:16	wingy	you dont need ActiveModels like in Rails. or Doctrine like in Symfony
11:16	uvtc	cmajor7, https://github.com/mtyaka/lein-oneoff
11:17	adu	duck1123: "dark magic"?
11:17	duck1123	cmajor7: That should do the trick. I haven't used that one, I just know that add-classpath used to be a pain
11:17	TimMc	Doesn't oneoff require a file?
11:17	uvtc	cmajor7, is that what you mean?
11:18	cmajor7	uvtc: almost :) it does require you to code "in a file", I was looking for a pure repl based dep
11:18	uvtc	Oh, I mis-read. Right. :)
11:19	cmajor7	e.g. I'd like to play with [clj-time "0.4.3"] without having to create a file/project
11:19	cmajor7	it is not all that hard, I can create a single "playground" project for things like that, and just keep adding deps into the "project.clj", and run "lein repl"
11:19	cmajor7	just thought there is a easy way :)
11:20	uvtc	That's what I do (create playground projects).
11:20	cmajor7	or should I say "simple" :)
11:22	duck1123	you could try listing it as a plugin in your profile. that might work
11:23	cmajor7	duck1123: you mean just drop the jar into "~/.lein/plugins/" ?
11:23	duck1123	worth a shot. I haven't tried it as I don't have my clojure setup here
11:23	wingy	anyone here using cljs and have opinions about google closure?
11:23	wingy	atm im using ExtJS but they are so OOPish and wont fit with cljs
11:25	cmajor7	duck1123: thx, I'll try that
11:25	kmicu	wingy: G Closure LIbrary?
11:25	wingy	kmicu: yeah for UI http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/closure/goog/demos/index.html
11:25	wingy	seems pretty sweet
11:26	cgag	i feel like no one uses it, or at least I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned outside the context of cljs
11:26	wingy	cgag: what are people using then?
11:26	wingy	they create html/css from scratch?
11:26	duck1123	They're using one of the hiccup clones
11:26	cgag	no idea, i haven't done much with javascript
11:27	wingy	duck1123: but those dont provide UI elements
11:29	uvtc	antares_, I added Apache and Eclipse the list at http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/libs-available.html#other-java-libraries ,
11:29	uvtc	but I didn't see any libraries listed at http://www.codehaus.org/ .
11:29	antares_	uvtc: feel free to link to clojurewerkz.org, too :) we focus on things for day-to-day development, like data stores
11:29	uvtc	Oh, right, almost forgot. Thanks!
11:30	uvtc	If you know of any other places for users to find Java libs, please let me know.
11:31	antares_	uvtc: codehaus site is a bit silly and not friendly. Groovy is hosted there, JRuby started there, but it does a terrible job of actually letting you browse and track project development. I'd just link to search.maven.org instead.
11:31	uvtc	antares_, Yep, got that one, thanks.
11:32	antares_	uvtc: also, you may want to add a note that eclipse.org is just a huge umbrella foundation. there are both tools (eclipse/jdt, for example) and libraries (like jgit)
11:32	antares_	and many tools have components that can be used as libraries
11:32	cmajor7	wingy: "what are people using then?": I just use hiccup.. quite simple really, enlive is also praised, but I have not used it
11:32	antares_	Jetty is now also an Eclipse project
11:33	duck1123	I tried using Closure templates, but reverted to using hiccup
11:35	cmajor7	it feels that some folks prefer enlive to hiccup, do you know why?
11:35	antares_	uvtc: also, I'd suggest you to rename "Java standard libraries" to "Java standard library: JDK" and link it to http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/
11:35	kmicu	wingy: I do not recall a project that uses gclosure ui libs, some poor examples @ https://github.com/search?q=goog.ui&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1&type=Everything&language=Clojure
11:36	duck1123	some people like enlive because it forces that separation of concerns. Some people don't like it for that same reason
11:36	cmajor7	duck1123: separation from what and what? :)
11:37	kmicu	cmajor7: in enlive you can jack-in to existing html created by gfx artist, hiccup is good when developer want to create some html in clojure :]
11:39	duck1123	envlive take html and plugs in the values using matching. With hiccup, you produce all your html as a sequence of vectors, keywords, and maps
11:39	cmajor7	kmicu: huh.. that's neat. yea I create it myself, but that'd be a cool ability. especially for "inspired" existing html/css
11:39	wingy	i wonder why noone is using closure
11:40	duck1123	wingy: I think beccause the people really into cljs built cljs libraries that accomplish many of the same things but feel nicer.
11:41	cmajor7	duck1123: I see, jquerymobile follows the same "separation".. you give it HTML, it hooks to it
11:41	wingy	hope someone is going to release something soon so we can all benefit from it
11:41	wingy	a UI framework working on tablets and phones as well
11:41	cmajor7	wingy: is twitter bootstrap not cutting it for you?
11:44	wingy	cmajor7: checking it out
11:46	wingy	cmajor7: cool concept
11:46	pbostrom	I like the enlive/bootstrap combo personally, since there is a lot of existing bootstrap html/css out there, it's a lot of work to translate it all to hiccup
11:48	duck1123	actually, with hiccup, you can write functions thaat abstract a lot of that away
11:49	duck1123	for example: https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/src/jiksnu/sections.clj#L7
11:50	cmajor7	duck1123: yep, that is what I have.. several hiccup builders that I reuse all over
11:50	cmajor7	pbostrom: thx, I'll check out enlive, feels like I have to, to be in the loop
11:51	cgag	i've only really used enlive for scraping so far, haven't done any generating
11:51	pbostrom	duck1123: I'm pretty lazy, so that constitutes "a lot of work" :)
11:51	cgag	it's selectors are nice for that
11:51	wingy	enlive is generating HTML using CSS selectors while Hiccup is using clojure right?
11:52	wingy	32 000 watchers of bootstrap lol
11:52	raek	you only use css selectors to specify where to apply the rules
11:52	raek	the transformations are written in clojure
11:53	raek	the selectors can be too
11:53	wingy	raek: ah .. so you have a regular HTML file with skeleton, then you apply html elements dynamically
11:53	raek	yup
11:53	cgag	this tutorial is pretty solid for enlive: https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/wiki/Table-and-Layout-Tutorial,-Part-1:-The-Goal
11:53	wingy	cool
11:54	wingy	well .. seems to ExtJS is history for me
11:54	pbostrom	I also like dnolen's tutorial: https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/
11:54	wingy	do most of the people here suggest enlive or hiccup?
11:54	wingy	and aleph or noir
11:55	raek	wingy: you wonder if those two together are the most common, or which one of them is the most common?
11:56	duck1123	wingy: the choices are aleph / jetty and noir / not-noir
11:57	cgag	i'm curious to hear people's opinions on the aleph / jetty choice
11:57	wingy	duck1123: is not-noir its own stack?
11:58	m0smith	hello, is anyone home?
11:58	duck1123	A lot of people do just fine not using noir. and there are other options slighty in that space
11:58	wingy	raek: i wonder what stack is the "best" to use for serving HTTP
11:59	duck1123	My choices have been: Hiccup, Aleph, Ciste
11:59	m0smith	I use hiccup with stencil to keep the html separate
12:00	raek	well, before noir came "the stack" was just your own combo of your favorite libs
12:00	gtrak	duck1123: Ciste, attempting to provide a structure to clojure applications, ha
12:00	m0smith	swing: there are lots of choices, do any stand out?
12:00	raek	wingy: take a look at the diagram under the Common Stack section here: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
12:01	gtrak	What's a documentation-generation stack I can use with lein that will handle tables and things?
12:01	raek	I think noir initially some of those libs bundled together with added syntactic sugar
12:02	raek	also, most web-related libs (including ring-jetty-adapter, aleph, and noir) are based on the Ring spec
12:10	m0smith	Is anyone using Swing?
12:10	qbert_	noone uses compojure ?
12:13	technomancy	compojure is the best
12:15	gfredericks	that statement is true even when totally unqualified
12:16	uvtc	gtrak, you mean for just generic documentation, or for api docs in the source code?
12:19	qbert_	out of curiosity, what are you guys building currently with clojure ?
12:20	gfredericks	an SVG-based demo of quantum computation
12:20	technomancy	leiningen
12:20	gfredericks	technomancy: that's quite a pun
12:21	acheng	observation re: clojure.test + lein + test selectors ... my fixture marked for :each test apparently runs for both unit tests in my namespace even though only one test is selected to run
12:23	technomancy	yeah, test selectors run inside fixtures
12:24	mmarczyk	gfredericks: ping
12:24	gfredericks	mmarczyk: pong
12:24	mmarczyk	gfredericks: hi
12:24	gfredericks	greetings
12:24	mmarczyk	gfredericks: just a quick question
12:24	acheng	technomancy: ok. it's still a great improvement over actually running those extra tests.
12:25	mmarczyk	have you been working on cljs-324? (format)
12:25	acheng	but if i have 30 tests and only wish to run 1, i'll get 29 instances of firefox opening and closing :-P
12:25	gfredericks	mmarczyk: nope. I took a quick look at the java docs and panicked :)
12:25	mmarczyk	gfredericks: oh, ok
12:26	acheng	maybe i'll run the one by hand as a regular fn then
12:26	mmarczyk	gfredericks: :-)
12:26	mmarczyk	gfredericks: GClosure does actually provide a formatter
12:26	gfredericks	mmarczyk: phew
12:26	gfredericks	is it similar?
12:26	mmarczyk	gfredericks: I can attach a patch and you can try it out :-)
12:26	gfredericks	I assume it doesn't should be identical
12:26	mmarczyk	gfredericks: honestly, I've no idea
12:26	mmarczyk	gfredericks: the sprintf-like basics should be pretty close
12:27	gfredericks	right
12:27	mmarczyk	gfredericks: I mean, they should be the same :-P
12:27	gfredericks	I don't know about the acceptance criteria for the issue; I assume dnolen's opinion is more relevant than mine
12:27	mmarczyk	gfredericks: just wanted to know if you were in the middle of writing our own sprintf-like formatter :-)
12:28	gfredericks	I did fantasize about that for several seconds
12:28	mmarczyk	:-D
12:30	mmarczyk	ok, attached a patch to cljs-324 with GClosure-based format and printf... if they won't cut it, at least it's an 11-liner :-P
12:31	mmarczyk	so no great loss of effort
12:31	gfredericks	mmarczyk: sweet
12:31	dnolen	mmarczyk: gfredericks: cool
12:32	mmarczyk	:-)
12:32	gfredericks	does lein-cljsbuild let you specify or provide a particular version of cljs?
12:32	mmarczyk	dnolen: hi! cljs-324 applies on top of cljs-328
12:32	mmarczyk	dnolen: the latter being a bugfix for a bug in :require handling... missed the (:require [lib.ns]) case
12:33	dnolen	gfredericks: not really, I'm increasingly convinced it should do anything at all. You need to specify CLJS yourself.
12:33	dnolen	shoudln't
12:33	brainproxy	wingy: I'm using hiccup to generate "templates", i.e. my term for logic-less skeletons of html documents
12:33	dnolen	erg
12:34	brainproxy	wingy: then I use enlive to realize views of data in terms of one or more templates
12:34	gfredericks	dnolen: so a lein-cljsbuild patch along those lines would be welcome?
12:35	mmarczyk	I thought lein-cljsbuild already uses the version of cljs specified among the project's :dependencies (if any)? or at least that it used to...? otherwise I've no idea how some of the things I've been doing with locally built CLJS versions could have possibly worked
12:36	gfredericks	I've never specified cljs in my deps
12:36	gfredericks	I'm not even familiar with the maven releases of cljs, if there are any
12:36	gfredericks	so apparently I don't know how things work
12:37	mmarczyk	there are
12:37	mmarczyk	for tags in the main repo
12:37	mmarczyk	hm, not sure if the last tag actually got a release
12:37	brainproxy	wingy: doing that way helps me (I think) to build up the semantic profiles for my hypermedia base type w/o getting bogged down in fine details of uri schemes and the particulars of parsing data into a representation, i.e. with respect to templates
12:37	mmarczyk	anyway, gotta dash now, bbl
13:01	gtrak	uvtc: generic documentation
13:01	gtrak	I guess I'd probably have to use latex or something
13:02	uvtc	Nah. I suggest you write them in markdown, but use the extras that Pandoc provides http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#pandocs-markdown . Then just process the docs yourself with the `pandoc` command.
13:03	uvtc	It supports tables, definition lists, LaTeX math, and some other goodies.
13:03	gtrak	oh neat
13:06	uvtc	gtrak, here's a brief example: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/sw/gouda/quick-markdown-example.html .
13:36	wingy	do you prefer to use anonymous functions or function literals in HOFs?
13:37	antares_	wingy: for anything non-trivial, I personally try to use named functions (because they can be tested easily)
13:38	scriptor	they could also be re-used elsewhere
13:38	wingy	okay
13:50	TimMc	If you do (map (fn munger [x] ...) ...) then "munger" appears in stack traces.
13:52	wingy	TimMc: it seems that named functions is always the best then
13:52	wingy	if it was me and fn literals have very little gain..i would have ditched it from the lang
13:53	antares_	duck11231: do you think this section on object ids is good enough? http://clojuremongodb.info/articles/inserting.html#document_ids_objectid
13:53	antares_	wingy: they are useful in those rare cases when you need to use loop/recur with otherwise trivial functions
13:56	ffwacom	sexp motherfuckers
13:56	duck11231	antares_: the link didn't go to the section, but the text looks good
13:56	antares_	duck11231: ok, thank you
13:58	duck11231	"Unfortunately, it does so" reads oddly, and I would drop "So" from the next paragraph
13:58	dnolen	wingy: fn literals, anon fns, letfn all have their use cases. takes some time to figure it out.
13:59	wingy	since FP is separating data and code, perhaps the presentation should be separated as well
13:59	antares_	duck11231: refresh
13:59	antares_	wingy: it is easy to take analogies too far
13:59	wingy	which means twitter bootstrap (CSS/HTML) is more suitable than ExtJS
14:00	wingy	they separate everything in object level .. MVC
14:00	wingy	FP + Html/Css is it's equivalent without all the objects/classes
14:01	wingy	antares_: but it seems right to have it like that .. the data {:name "foo"} has nothing to do with the logic map/reduce which has nothing to do with how you present the data to users
14:01	antares_	duck11231: Monger docs are OSS and I am not a native English speaker so feel free to edit them and submit pull requests ;) https://github.com/clojurewerkz/monger.docs
14:02	wingy	where you are using <div>/.div and html templating where you pass in a collection and it will render a table
14:02	antares_	wingy: I agree but sometimes more separation does not yield anything in practice
14:02	wingy	antares_: where is the _more_ in this kind of separation?
14:02	antares_	just like sometimes the best solution is to not remove duplication if it makes code harder to understand
14:02	wingy	how can i possibly have presentation in the collections
14:03	antares_	wingy: I am not talking specifically about one case or idea
14:03	wingy	i am :)
14:03	antares_	just suggesting not refer to Clojure and FP's ideas of separation as the universal law applicable to everything:)
14:03	wingy	it could?
14:04	wingy	simplicity is what i want to achieve .. seems nothing can be more simple than data in data out
14:04	wingy	then the presentation stuff is just for people right
14:04	TimMc	wingy: Non-named and literal fns improve readability in many, many cases. Less to read!
14:04	wingy	how to present a collection for users .. which has nothing to do with data -> fn -> data
14:05	wingy	feels that im getting much smarter reading about FP than OOP where they abstract everything away .. heading towards complexity
14:06	wingy	TimMc: yeah
14:13	antares_	uvtc: by the way, another huge umbrella project for a lot of Java tools and libraries is JBoss: http://www.jboss.org/projects, Clojure on JBoss App Server: http://immutant.org
14:25	uvtc	The docs (manual) for immutant are easy to navigate. Easy to see right where you are at any given point. Very nice.
14:25	jcrossley3	uvtc: thanks! :)
14:25	uvtc	What are you using to generate them?
14:26	jcrossley3	uvtc: tcrawley is so happy you asked that!
14:26	tcrawley	heh
14:26	uvtc	tcrawley, did you whip something up to generate them?
14:26	tcrawley	jcrossley3: does that mean you are delegating to me to answer it?
14:26	jcrossley3	tcrawley: yes, i'll just bask here in your glow. :)
14:27	uvtc	(Oh, I almost thought I'd made a mistake; it says "jboss.org" at the top of http://immutant.org/documentation/current/ )
14:27	tcrawley	uvtc: the docs themselves are written in emacs org-mode format. We then run them through emacs in batch mode to export html
14:28	technomancy	what's the motivation behind having immutant be installed in ~/.lein/immutant?
14:28	tcrawley	uvtc: that html is then munged by a ruby script to match the jboss.org doc format, which allows us to use the jboss.org doc css
14:29	tcrawley	uvtc: which assumes you are generating the docs from docbook
14:29	tcrawley	technomancy: good question!
14:29	austinh	Is there a way to make paredit-reindent-defun (M-q) keep a function definition's parameters on the line after the doc-string?
14:29	tcrawley	technomancy: I wish I could remember the answer :)
14:30	uvtc	tcrawley: Neat! I'd written a doc generator myself, which produces something sorta similar in structure, but not nearly as polished: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/sw/gouda/ . Instead of org files (?) it uses a flat dir of .md (er, .txt) files.
14:30	jcrossley3	tcrawley: technomancy: i think it was a pretty arbitrary decision at the time. it was a directory we knew would exist. :)
14:30	technomancy	tcrawley: it's just that lein is generally pretty project-centric; the only outside-project stuff it's done has been shell wrappers, which were mostly unused.
14:30	uvtc	tcrawley, Oh, you have better navigation. I should fix the gouda header to have the arrows on each side like yours.
14:31	technomancy	tcrawley: two thumbs up for supporting meta rel=next/prev
14:31	tcrawley	technomancy: seriously though, I put it there since it was installed by and managed by a lein plugin. it may be better to use ~/.immutant
14:31	technomancy	tcrawley: so you're using leiningen as a general clojure CLI interface rather than specifically a tool to operate on projects?
14:32	tcrawley	technomancy: correct - most of the plugin's commands work inside or outside of a project
14:32	technomancy	interesting
14:33	tcrawley	for example: 'lein immutant deploy' will deploy the current project if you are in one, otherwise you can give it a path to one from anywhere: 'lein immutant deploy foo/bar'
14:33	tcrawley	and can be used to deploy apps that aren't even lein projects (but why anyone would do that I don't know)
14:33	technomancy	is the stuff installed by `lein immutant install` used at dev time or for deployments?
14:33	technomancy	or both?
14:34	tcrawley	well, the question becomes 'what is dev time?' - if you are developing an immutant app, you're probably deploying it quite a bit
14:35	tcrawley	or deploying a basic version of the app w/swank enabled, and doing repl based development
14:35	tcrawley	inside the immutant container
14:35	tcrawley	but what's installed is a full blown installation of immutant
14:36	uvtc	Thanks for that heads-up, antares_ . Added.
14:36	tcrawley	uvtc: I'll take a look at gouda, thanks for the tip
14:38	technomancy	tcrawley: have you considered a higher-order task?
14:38	tcrawley	technomancy: what do you mean?
14:38	jcrossley3	uvtc: thx for the link on your page
14:38	technomancy	`lein immutant swank` could run the swank task inside immutant
14:38	technomancy	tcrawley: eval-in-project is a multimethod, so you could add support for :eval-in :immutant
14:39	technomancy	and have all eval-in-project code sent to the app server
14:39	technomancy	then all existing lein tasks could port over, provided you can handle classpath stuff
14:39	technomancy	just a thought
14:39	tcrawley	technomancy: ah, right. that would require some clojure app deployed to the app server to receive it, but that wouldn't be difficult. it would need the deps of the current project, yeah
14:40	tcrawley	but it's doable
14:40	technomancy	ideally you could make it work without the need for an explicit `lein immutant install` step
14:40	jcrossley3	that'd actually be pretty cool if jack-in could run the swank task inside immutant, too.
14:40	technomancy	anyway, that's what I would do
14:40	technomancy	but I'm obsessed over higher-order tasks
14:40	technomancy	so take it with a grain of salt
14:41	tcrawley	'install' installs immutant itself, so there would have to be an install happening at some point.
14:41	tcrawley	so 'lein immutant swank' would d/l and install immutant on the first call
14:41	technomancy	right; ideally you could have it happen on-demand
14:41	technomancy	and the project could declare the version it needs (separately from :dependencies probably)
14:42	tcrawley	I like that idea a lot
14:42	tcrawley	I'll put that on the list
14:42	tcrawley	technomancy: thanks for the suggestion!
14:42	technomancy	no problem; lemme know how it works out for you
14:42	tcrawley	will do
14:58	wingy	what does "concrete types of data" mean?
15:02	amalloy	not much without context, i suspect
15:08	uvtc	wingy, the concrete data types are hash-map, vector, list, and set. There's syntax for them, and you create them in your code. They implement various abstractions that Clojure has notions of.
15:11	uvtc	I was just looking at amalloy's solution at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11225562/idiomatically-merge-maps-into-a-map-of-value-sets-with-clojure ,
15:11	uvtc	and thought it seemed like I could do the same like so:
15:11	uvtc	https://gist.github.com/3013269
15:11	uvtc	But I'm getting "UnsupportedOperationException nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashMap".
15:12	uvtc	Am I going about that the wrong way?
15:12	wingy	uvtc: why are they called _concrete_? strings, booleans and numbers are data types but not concrete?
15:13	gfredericks	uvtc: I think your my-merge-maps is set to use varargs but you call it with a single arg
15:13	uvtc	gfredericks, Doh! Thanks!
15:15	uvtc	wingy, my understanding is that those are all concrete data types. You can make them in your code ... hold them in your hand, so to speak. :) As opposed to abstract data types which are descriptions of how a data type would act if it were to implement said abstraction.
15:23	Cheiron	Hi, I'm trying to mimic "Composite columns" section of https://github.com/Netflix/astyanax/wiki/Getting-Started
15:23	Cheiron	(defrecord Session [^{Component {:ordinal 0}} gid ^{Component {:ordinal 1}} tid])
15:37	wingy	anyone know how i get a error message: https://gist.github.com/3013395
15:38	cgag	you're calling columns
15:38	xeqi	wingy: you're calling columns as a function on line 7
15:38	amalloy	how to get an error message? easy, just keep doing what you're doing
15:39	Raynes	Hahahaha
15:41	wingy	cgag xeqi oh thx
15:56	uvtc	`merge-with` figures out what the new val should be by calling `(f curr-val this-new-val)`, correct? That is, the job of `f` is to come up with a completly new replacement for the val ... is that correct?
15:57	nDuff	uvtc, yes.
15:58	uvtc	Nice. Thanks, nDuff.
16:02	gfredericks	,(merge-with + {:a 2 :b 4} {:c 100 :d 200})
16:02	clojurebot	{:d 200, :c 100, :a 2, :b 4}
16:02	gfredericks	that was a terrible example
16:03	progo	:)
16:03	uvtc	And for that, you must pay. 5 laps around the hash-map while the rest of the team waits.
16:03	gfredericks	,(apply merge-with + (repeat 100000 {}))
16:03	clojurebot	{}
16:03	gfredericks	,(apply merge-with + (repeat 100000 {:a 1}))
16:03	clojurebot	{:a 100000}
16:04	gfredericks	,(apply merge-with + (repeat 100000 {(rand-int 4) (rand-int 4)}))
16:04	clojurebot	{1 100000}
16:04	gfredericks	whoops
16:04	gfredericks	,(apply merge-with + (repeatedly 100000 #(hash-map (rand-int 4) (rand-int 4))))
16:04	clojurebot	{0 37323, 1 37768, 2 37303, 3 37310}
16:05	uvtc	gfredericks, I was trying to get this to work https://gist.github.com/3013575 but it's returning
16:05	uvtc	[{:a 1, :b 2} {:a 11, :c 5, :b 22} {:a 7, :c 6}]
16:07	uvtc	If the key is already in the result, but `curr-val` is not a set, then `curr-val` must just be the first number that made it in...
16:09	llasram	uvtc: missing an `apply` -- `merge-with` is getting passed a vector of maps, rather than maps as a sequence of arguments
16:10	uvtc	llasram, Ah!
16:10	scriptor	hmm, probably can't use cljs, but that's not gonna keep me from trying to code like I was
16:19	uvtc	llasram, it works (updated the gist). At first I didn't see why, but then remembered that you can pass in optional args to `apply` after the func but before the sequence you wish the func applied to.
16:19	solussd	how do you change chunk size?
16:19	llasram	Awesome!
16:20	uvtc	llasram, yes. Thanks. :)
16:21	llasram	Argh. I seem to do no better than chance at choosing the correct one of #{< >} in Clojure. A problem I don't seem to have with any other operators, or in languages where those operators are infix. Anyone else experience this?
16:22	aperiodic	it took me a few months to get the hang of that, but i must confess that i've just gotten good at mentally rearranging it to infix notation in my head
16:22	uvtc	llasram, if it's ">", then everything after it gets smaller.
16:22	uvtc	If it's "<", then everything after gets bigger.
16:23	uvtc	(I mean, for the expression to be true.)
16:23	aperiodic	ooh, that's a good mnemonic
16:23	gfredericks	increasing vs decreasing
16:23	uvtc	Don't want to take credit for that one. Read it somewhere... (maybe in Joy of Clojure?)
16:24	llasram	That's pretty similar to how I'd started thinking of it, but I just found a place where I messed it up again. Guess the solution is just to be more careful...
16:24	hiredman	,(doc >)
16:24	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums are in monotonically decreasing order, otherwise false."
16:24	hiredman	it is how the doc string describes what it does
16:25	uvtc	Ha. Thanks. Guess that's where I saw it. :)
16:25	amalloy	you can also write (-> x (> 10)), which reads kinda well as "x greater than ten"
16:25	Bronsa	nice trick
16:26	uvtc	I'll have a monotonic, on the rocks.
16:26	technomancy	I thought monotonically increasing meant increasing by one but apparently that's not it. sneaky prefixes!
16:26	uvtc	Wait. Make that diatomic.
16:27	amalloy	technomancy: i think it's just a fancier word for "strictly" in that context
16:28	raek	I think of monotonic as "derivative does not change sign"
16:28	aperiodic	a monotonic function only goes in one direction; strictly monotonic ones always go in that direction
16:29	aperiodic	constant functions are monotonic, but not strictly monotonic
16:29	amalloy	aperiodic: that's what i thought too, but if so the doc for > is wrong, right?
16:29	amalloy	$dict monotonic
16:29	lazybot	amalloy: adjective: of or using the Greek system of diacritics which discards the breathings and employs a single accent to indicate stress.
16:29	amalloy	$google monotonic increasing
16:29	llasram	Oh, that makes sense
16:29	lazybot	[Monotonic function - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotonic_function
16:30	amalloy	&(doc >=)
16:30	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/>= ([x] [x y] [x y & more]) Returns non-nil if nums are in monotonically non-increasing order, otherwise false. nil
16:30	aperiodic	amalloy: yes, a mathematician would say that the doc for > should say "strictly monotonically"
16:31	amalloy	aperiodic: or you could just discard "monotonically" from the docs for all the comparison functions, at once making them more accurate and easier to understand
16:31	amalloy	> decreasing, >= non-increasing: done
16:32	aperiodic	yeah, that's much more accessible
16:34	amalloy	perhaps someone more strong-willed than i am could make a jira ticket suggesting that
16:36	uvtc	amalloy, tehehe :)
16:36	llasram	github pull requests are not a valid way of submitting patches?
16:36	technomancy	=(
16:37	llasram	Oh
16:37	llasram	Oh well. I probably should have guessed
16:39	juhu_chapa	Hi All! How can a method from a proxied class use a binded var?
16:39	hiredman	bound
16:40	llasram	juhu_chapa: Do you have a particular example in mind?
16:42	nDuff	juhu_chapa: it should just work, unless the method is only called somewhere else (outside of the binding's scope, ie. a different thread or a different time)
16:42	wingy	are you guys using java std lib a lot when using clojure?
16:43	wingy	are there any libs in java you prefer when doing web apps
16:44	technomancy	why doesn't c.j.jdbc convert numbers into j.sql.Timestamps upon insertion?
16:44	nDuff	wingy: ...I really tend to prefer compojure for building webapps, or do you mean libraries for a specific purpose beyond what Clojure-native bits provide?
16:44	juhu_chapa	nDuff: the method is called from another thread.
16:44	nDuff	juhu_chapa: non-root bindings are thread-local by nature, so it sounds like they may not be the right tool for what you're trying to accomplish.
16:45	hiredman	technomancy: I don't think c.j.jdbc does any conversion, any conversion that happens is from the jdbc driver
16:45	technomancy	oh, gotcha
16:46	juhu_chapa	nDuff: How can I declare a root binding?
16:46	ppppaul	anyone know of an HTML to JSON converter?
16:46	hiredman	which makes things really painful, because different jdbc drivers map standard sql types to different jvm types
16:46	nDuff	juhu_chapa: ...well, (def var value) is setting the root binding of var to value...
16:47	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, well database portability isn't
16:47	juhu_chapa	nDuff: thank you.
16:47	nDuff	juhu_chapa: ...there's also alter-var-root, but if you want to use that from a proxy method, it means that a var is probably the wrong tool and maybe you should be using a different abstraction (an atom, perhaps?)
16:47	timvisher\|work	technomancy: thoughts on why swank.cdt would fail when I try to require it with the latest version of jack-in?
16:48	timvisher\|work	i'm getting CNFE
16:48	technomancy	timvisher\|work: probably because tools.jar is specifically designed to make good tooling impossible =\
16:48	timvisher\|work	figures
16:48	nDuff	juhu_chapa: (that said, using def from inside a proxy would be even more wrong than alter-var-root, so... yar, a continuum, but probably an atom is more the right tool)
16:48	technomancy	the cdt bits of lein-swank haven't been updated for 2.x
16:48	timvisher\|work	what's even weirder is that i swear i had this working some time last week
16:48	timvisher\|work	and i don't think i've changed anything
16:49	timvisher\|work	i shouldn't need to specifically specify it as a plugin or anything, yes?
16:49	nDuff	my impression is that it _is_ a separate plugin
16:50	timvisher\|work	the cdt jar shows up in .m2
16:50	technomancy	the problem is tools.jar
16:50	technomancy	it hasn't been updated to work with 2.x yet
16:50	timvisher\|work	nDuff: agreed, of course, but my impression was that jack-in does all sorts of fun stuff to get it on your classpath for easy access
16:50	wingy	nDuff: yeah any Java lib you usually need in addition to clojure ones
16:50	timvisher\|work	so what you're saying is that it won't work under 2.x?
16:50	nDuff	wingy: ...nope, I don't have any of those.
16:50	technomancy	that's basically what I'm saying
16:51	technomancy	in a nutshell, yes =)
16:51	juhu_chapa	nDuff: is it ok to do root binding at -main method?
16:51	timvisher\|work	gotcha gotcha
16:51	timvisher\|work	lol
16:51	timvisher\|work	ok, thanks!
16:51	technomancy	should be an open issue for it in swank-clojure if you want to give it a crack
16:52	timvisher\|work	lol, i'm getting a backlog of things i should give a crack at :)
16:52	timvisher\|work	sigh…
16:52	timvisher\|work	if only i had more time or different priorities
16:52	timvisher\|work	:)
16:52	nDuff	juhu_chapa: ...problematic. During ahead-of-time compilation, anything that expects to reference the var will want it to be defined earlier, ie. at top level.
16:53	nDuff	juhu_chapa: you might consider a promise, and then deliver to it from your -main
16:53	nDuff	(that, or an atom)
16:55	mattmoss	I'm working on some java interop, and I wonder if you might have opinions on this: https://gist.github.com/3013845
16:56	mattmoss	Trying to handle calls into clojure code from java code on a separate java thread.
16:56	juhu_chapa	nDuff: ok, let me check that.
16:56	mattmoss	Just wondering if I'm thinking too hard about the problem and making things more complicated than they need to be.
16:57	mattmoss	The code works, but... seems maybe I'm doing overkill?
16:58	hiredman	why not just have a single queue?
16:58	mattmoss	hiredman: All events into one agent?
16:59	hiredman	no
16:59	hiredman	why are you using agents at all?
16:59	hiredman	do you really want a reference type? or a queue of events?
17:00	mattmoss	hmm... I think initially I put in an agent because I thought "coming in from non-main thread", but that's probably wrong thinking.
17:00	hiredman	you may want to look at something like lamina
17:00	mattmoss	Also, I wanted "the clojure way" which this probably isn't.
17:01	mattmoss	I also wanted someone able to watch just event-3... but reify needs all three functions defined, even if they do nothing.
17:02	mattmoss	I suppose, overall, I thought letting clients add watches was better than adding multiple listeners, but I can't say why I thought that was better.
17:03	llasram	I think it depends on what "watch" means for your application, but ref-watching is probably not the right fit
17:04	mattmoss	Apologies, also, that I can't be more specific about what event-1 et. al. actually are.
17:04	llasram	Secrets!!!
17:04	mattmoss	lolz
17:05	llasram	From what you've presented so far, you could just allow each watcher to register a different listener, making it pretty by keeping internal the reify'd Listener closing over the functions to invoke. Maybe?
17:05	mattmoss	I should probably just drop the agents, and write functions more like the swing utils add-action-listener
17:06	acheng	i have (defmulti name "doc string" :key) ... but (doc name) doesn't show "doc string"... what did i do wrong?
17:07	mattmoss	llasram: Yeah, something like that.
17:12	jweiss	i'm using clojure to write tests, and as i posted on the mailing list, i'm having trouble writing out my tests (which can be considered both clojure code and data) in a way that I can read it back in. i keep coming back to eval, but everyone says eval is bad. i know no other way to conserve the original code as data, other than very fancy stuff like serializing all the functions and java objects and everything else.
17:12	gfredericks	jweiss: read-string doesn't help?
17:13	jweiss	gfredericks: that would turn a string into clojure data, but it would barf on #< ...>
17:13	jweiss	which it always does, for me, since my data is full of that
17:13	gfredericks	why is your data full of that?
17:14	jweiss	gfredericks: well, let's say i have a data driven test. and one of the pieces of data is the function it needs to call to produce some value. the function gets printed out as #< ...>
17:14	jweiss	so now my results are unreadable
17:14	jweiss	if i used eval i could have saved the unevaluated form first.
17:15	TimMc	jweiss: Does serializable-fn help? It's half-joke, half-awesome.
17:15	jweiss	TimMc: actually i do use serializable-fn. it helps for functions. but there are plenty of other non-serializable types.
17:16	Raynes	TimMc: It's hardly half-joke. I'm using it for pretty important stuff in clojail as of today.
17:16	TimMc	ok
17:16	Raynes	It works really well for a lot of things.
17:16	TimMc	I didn't say it wasn't useful. :-)
17:16	technomancy	yeah, those don't have to be mutually exclusive =)
17:16	technomancy	look at elnode
17:16	technomancy	well actually don't
17:17	aperiodic	...i don't even
17:17	technomancy	I warned you
17:17	TimMc	I thought it had its genesis as a reaction to the repeated attempts at serializable functions.
17:17	jweiss	TimMc: i also have a lot of timestamped values. so i don't want my results to say "I tested abc-123454654564" i want it to say 'I tested (timestamp "abc")'
17:17	TimMc	technomancy: Is that what I think it is?
17:17	technomancy	TimMc: run away!
17:17	Raynes	TimMc: An evented IO server in Emacs.
17:18	jweiss	serializable-fn would just show me the implementation of the timestamp function, which i don't want.
17:18	TimMc	ahhh WTF
17:18	technomancy	jweiss: a var might help
17:19	jweiss	yeah i realized i could refer to the function by var instead of symbol. that would make the output nicer but my code uglier.
17:19	technomancy	life is full of compromises =\
17:19	TimMc	jweiss: I have used eval for printable inputs: https://github.com/timmc/seqs-and-colls/blob/master/src/seqs/core.clj#L175
17:21	jweiss	technomancy: that is true, but i don't want to assume i have to compromise until i'm sure i have to :)
17:23	jweiss	TimMc: ok if you did it, it is not such a crazy idea. My intent was to just quote the code and eval it when the test is executed. i figured the main issue might be namespaces, but i think syntax quote should take care of it.
17:24	TimMc	jweiss: In my case I used strings, but that's because of the function literals. If not for that, I would have 'quoted them.
17:24	jweiss	all right then i guess i will branch and try out eval and see how it goes :)
17:25	TimMc	godspeed
17:26	wingy	is it possible for a pure function to use a library when you do not know if the functions you are using are pure or not
17:26	wingy	if they are introducing side effects then your fn is not pure either
17:26	TimMc	Clojure doesn't have reified "pure functions".
17:35	timvisher	technomancy: so with lein2-preview6 on my mac, swank.cdt works, but on windows at the same version it doesn't
17:35	timvisher	thoughts?
17:35	mhanson	All the things, they are broken.
17:35	mhanson	Whoops, wrong channel.
17:36	acheng	phew!
17:36	wingy	mhanson: that's why they are broken!
17:36	wingy	you are not using clojure
17:36	mhanson	wingy: Hah.
17:36	wingy	HAH!
17:36	mhanson	But it's true, I'm using Groovy.
17:36	mhanson	Yuck!
17:37	technomancy	timvisher: I don't understand how it could work on lein2 anywhere
17:37	xeqi	timvisher: do you have CLASSPATH set?
17:38	timvisher	xeqi: nope
17:38	xeqi	or whatever the mac equivalent
17:38	timvisher	lein version: Leiningen 2.0.0-preview6 on Java 1.6.0_33 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
17:38	timvisher
17:39	timvisher	https://gist.github.com/3014101
17:39	wingy	ok noob question
17:39	wingy	https://gist.github.com/3014094
17:39	wingy	why isnt the first line in the body executed
17:40	llasram	wingy: Your code is just referencing the function, not calling it
17:40	llasram	Use/mention distinction!
17:40	wingy	yeah haha
17:40	wingy	haha im such a noob
17:40	timvisher	wingy: Also if you're in a full featured environment like slime you won't see that output unless you pop open the repl
17:41	wingy	timvisher: hm havent used slime im on light table
17:41	wingy	slime is something for emacs?
17:41	xeqi	timvisher: how bout something like (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))) ?
17:41	timvisher	wingy: nice!
17:41	timvisher	like it?
17:41	wingy	yeah a lot
17:41	wingy	best repl ever
17:42	timvisher	xeqi: https://gist.github.com/3014112
17:42	wingy	could someone explain what slime is
17:43	timvisher	wingy: i wonder how long the best features will take to port to emacs
17:43	timvisher	:)
17:43	timvisher	still, light table's one of the more impressive demos i've seen for an ide
17:43	xeqi	hmm, I don't see it there either.. wonder if the mac jdk is built differently :/
17:43	wingy	timvisher: how does it compare to emacs
17:43	wingy	so lispers are usually using emacs and not vim?
17:44	tbaldridge	wingy: the thing with emacs is, it's written in lisp (more or less)
17:44	wingy	tbaldridge: yeah .. why people is using it more in lisp world i guess
17:44	tbaldridge	so for me it came down to 1) use vim that's just a real barebones ide, or 2) use a editor that has been editing lisp for years
17:45	wingy	yeah pretty natural thinking
17:45	tbaldridge	So for instance, in emacs you can type (+ (1 2) 3)
17:45	tbaldridge	Now place your cursor over the 1 and hit ALT+s and it turns the code into this (+ 1 2 3)
17:45	wingy	or 3) use light table which is built on Clojure
17:46	tbaldridge	once you understand paredit it's insane how easy it is to throw things into lists
17:46	aperiodic	tbaldridge: you can do that with paredit.vim, though it's not as full-featured as emacs's paredit
17:46	Raynes	It's pretty good.
17:46	m0smith	wingy: where would one get Light Table?
17:46	TimMc	m0smith: It's more "when" than "where".
17:47	Raynes	And combined with Vim's built in text objects, I found myself never wanting anything from it that I couldn't get.
17:47	wingy	m0smith: its not fully featured yet .. just a demo
17:47	wingy	or the REPL version of it
17:47	m0smith	:(
17:47	wingy	m0smith: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/06/24/its-playtime/
17:48	timvisher	xeqi: it is a special port of the jdk
17:48	timvisher	as far as i understand it
17:48	timvisher	oh well
17:48	m0smith	thanks
17:49	wingy	np
17:49	wingy	could be used as a good repl atm
17:49	wingy	its using clj 1.5
17:49	m0smith	on another subject is there a defacto way of interacting with Swing or another such?
17:59	technomancy	people say seesaw is nice for swing
18:00	m0smith	ok thanks
18:06	wingy	memoize is cool
18:07	wingy	doesn't FP mean that all our functions should be wrapped in memoize since what is the point in recalculating if the return value always is the same?
18:07	wingy	given the same args
18:07	technomancy	depends how you feel about memory leaks, I guess
18:08	amalloy	and about doing lookups in a large map to find the result of (inc 1)
18:09	gtrak	wingy: we shouldn't write code, only lookup tables, clearly
18:09	technomancy	amalloy: what do you think about implementing a clojurebot backend for clojure.core.cache?
18:09	amalloy	heh. this just made me think: "classes are cool. maybe we should wrap all our functions in classes"
18:09	amalloy	"oh nooooo what have we done"
18:10	rlb	was reading something recently talking about some of the tradeoffs being different than you might expect with the jvm, i.e. (re)computation cheaper than storage, etc.
18:10	amalloy	technomancy: what do i think? knock yourself out, dude
18:10	technomancy	amalloy: I guess you've been around too long to fall for my tricks.
18:11	Raynes	technomancy, amalloy: If we all delegate work to each other, I'm pretty sure none of it can ever get done.
18:12	wingy	so use memoize only in big calculations?
18:12	gtrak	hmm... how do I make my lookup table more dynamic...
18:13	gtrak	wingy: use it in good taste?
18:13	wingy	gtrak: taste is best practice for me
18:13	wingy	trying to figure out what that one is for memoize
18:13	wingy	dont forget im a beginner in all this
18:13	gtrak	performance opts best practice is to do it after profiling
18:14	wingy	what is a good way to profile your code?
18:14	gtrak	write for clarity and see how far that gets you first?
18:15	gtrak	wingy: jvisualvm has some profiling built-in, you can mess with that, you have to simulate some kind of load, you can send a ton of web requests with apachebench (ab)
18:15	gtrak	then look for hotspots and things
18:16	gtrak	clojure itself has a 'time' function
18:18	gtrak	I'd say though you should never use memoize if you inputs/outputs are out of your control? prefer something like core.cache
18:18	technomancy	I wish core's memoize just got slightly more clever and c.c.cache built on that
18:18	technomancy	because there are lots of cases where pulling it in is huge overkill
18:19	wingy	this one ? https://github.com/clojure/core.cache
18:19	gtrak	or just make static things static, ie do the work at compile-time
18:22	gtrak	technomancy: shouldn't be too hard to write a simple cache?
18:23	technomancy	yeah, but it would take 3 lines to make the built-in memoize significantly smarter
18:24	gtrak	you could also use google's thing
18:24	technomancy	just place the cache atom on the metadata of the function returned and accept an argument for an alternate swap! function
18:24	technomancy	now you can easily switch to LRU or some other strategy
18:24	Cheiron	Hi, I'm wrapping Hector library in Clojure to be used in realtime system. should I use type hints?
18:25	brehaut	Cheiron: only if a) warn-on-reflection warns you or b) you need it for interop call site resolution
18:26	Cheiron	i'm thinking to use types hints since the software is realtime
18:26	gtrak	Cheiron: realtime is not java
18:26	hiredman	is realtime the same thing as webscale?
18:26	brehaut	Cheiron: type hints are magic pixie dust, and they are not static types.
18:27	Cheiron	well, I'm using Storm (realtime processing) , you are right.
18:27	TimMc	I thought they weren't magic pixie dust.
18:27	brehaut	sorry
18:27	wingy	have you guys encountered many aspies in programming world?
18:27	brehaut	TimMc is write and i typoed
18:27	hiredman	type hints let you avoid the overhead of reflection, so unless you know you are using relfection, don't use them
18:27	technomancy	if you have to ask, don't type hint
18:28	gtrak	maybe storm is 'real-time' in comparison to batch, the way that hadoop is normally used
18:28	Cheiron	ok. crystal clear
18:28	Cheiron	one more thing would you please check section :composite columns: of https://github.com/Netflix/astyanax/wiki/Getting-Started ? I tried to mimic it
18:28	Cheiron	(defrecord Hit [^{Component {:ordinal 0}} gid ^{Component {:ordinal 1}} tid])
18:28	technomancy	type hints are for after you've determined 0) it's slow and 1) it's slow because of reflection
18:29	hiredman	Cheiron: that isn't even correctly type hinting
18:29	Cheiron	I'm not type hinting here
18:29	Cheiron	I'm using annotations
18:29	Cheiron	earlier I typed: one more thing, so this is another topic :)
18:30	Cheiron	so, this is a valid use of annotations in Clojure?
18:31	hiredman	Cheiron: there is little to no use of the annotations stuff (as far I as can tell) so generally you best bet is to read the code
18:32	hiredman	of course I've read the code, and don't recall, I think when I messed with it I didn't need an annotation with a value
18:32	hiredman	(and of course I wanted an annotation on a constructor, which wasn't (isn't?) support)
18:32	hiredman	supported
18:32	Cheiron	in case of Astyanax (the link I posted) , annotations are necessary
18:33	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-948
18:34	hiredman	most likely you'll need something more like what a java consumer would expect, strings for keys (maybe the annotation stuff calls name?)
18:35	Cheiron	I don't know really, I'm experimenting :)
18:44	wingy	so in clojure besides executing a function, what are the differences between lists and vectors?
18:44	wingy	which one should i use as an array in other langs to store multiple items
18:45	nDuff	wingy: Depends. Do you need efficient indexed access? Do you need to add things to the beginning or the end?
18:45	wingy	if i do that would be vector?
18:45	nDuff	wingy: the beginning, or the end?
18:45	nDuff	wingy: which one?
18:46	wingy	end!
18:47	nDuff	wingy: for efficiently adding to the end, or efficient indexed access, you want a vector.
18:47	nDuff	(likewise for efficient removal from the end)
18:48	nDuff	...which is why neither lists _or_ vectors make good queues
18:49	aperiodic	well, lists make great FIFO queues
18:49	aperiodic	er, LIFO queues
18:49	aperiodic	:P
18:50	nDuff	great stacks, indeed
18:50	brehaut	wingy: a simple rule if you havent internalised the details: you want vectors unless you are writing a macro ;)
18:50	nDuff	...but the point I was trying to make to wingy was the need for PersistantQueue
18:50	nDuff	wingy: ...also, if you don't care about where you add something (beginning or end), use conj, and it'll do whichever is efficient.
18:51	wingy	ok
18:52	TimMc	brehaut: For macros I use seqs, not lists.
18:54	brehaut	TimMc: i take any excuse to use list*
19:02	TimMc	&(type (list* 1 2 [3]))
19:02	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Cons
19:02	TimMc	brehaut: FYI ^
19:02	brehaut	a mere technicality :P
19:03	TimMc	hah!
19:05	wingy	btw what is the real point in having vectors and lists and not one data type for them?
19:05	wingy	with indexed access in it
19:05	brehaut	well to start, lists arent an indexed
19:06	nDuff	wingy: ...so, vectors are fast, but adding and removing things from the head of a linked list is _incredibly_ fast.
19:06	wingy	does that mean they have no order?
19:07	wingy	ok
19:07	wingy	they are fast!
19:08	wingy	list is an unindexed fast vector
19:08	nDuff	They're fast for different things.
19:08	nDuff	Because vectors are indexed, they're fast for random access
19:09	nDuff	whereas lists are only fast when working with the head.
19:09	wingy	nDuff: so there is no way to pick a specific item in the middle of a list?
19:09	nDuff	...not "no way"
19:09	nDuff	no _fast_ way.
19:09	nDuff	it's an O(n) operation depending on how far into the list it is.
19:09	brehaut	wingy: only by walking (potentially) the entire list
19:09	wingy	ok
19:10	nDuff	whereas vectors are O(log32 n)
19:10	wingy	i get it more now
19:10	nDuff	which is practically O(1)
19:10	nDuff	("amortized constant time")
19:10	wingy	yeah if things arent indexed you have to traverse
19:16	Cheiron	clojurebot: Tesla or Edison?
19:16	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:17	amalloy	brehaut: i disagree with "if you don't know the difference, use vectors". it leads to people being like "halp i have this function that produces a list but i need a vector because brehaut said so"
19:17	duck1123	Has anyone experienced an issue with the new lein and cljsbuild? I'm not seeing it as a task
19:18	brehaut	amalloy: geez, that would be the single worth appeal to authority in the world :( i agree with your refutation
19:19	Cheiron	I need to use a fixed list of values, so I create a mao of keywords. any better ideas?
19:20	duck1123	ok, I had it specified in my project.clj, but not in my .lein. I see it now. Should it show up if it's in profile.clj?
19:21	duck1123	ok, ignore my question altogether
19:21	aperiodic	Cheiron: why not a set?
19:25	Cheiron	Hmm. also possible
19:26	Cheiron	but I don't feel using a map or set is neat
19:26	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:26	Cheiron	(:A set) (:B set)
19:30	aperiodic	you can get all the members of a set in a seq by just calling seq on it, if that's more convenient
19:31	kovasb	ohpauleez: hey, are there any sample apps in the shoreleave repo set? most interested in the pubsub and services stuff
19:32	ohpauleez	kovasb: I haven't had time to finish up the app I showed at the meetup (which uses the google maps service and the pubsub stuff)
19:32	ohpauleez	(traveling a little this week and next)
19:32	kovasb	ohpauleez: understood. are there any examples of usage somewhere?
19:34	kovasb	i think i saw some on your slides.. will try to look them up
19:38	ohpauleez	There are some on the slides, and I just put this together: https://gist.github.com/3014746
19:38	ohpauleez	should give you a very rough idea
19:40	ohpauleez	kovasb: ^
19:40	kovasb	ohpauleez: thanks! will bug u if i have any issues :0
19:40	ohpauleez	Cool, thanks for trying it out
19:44	ohpauleez	kovasb: And services (google maps geocode) : https://gist.github.com/3014768
19:44	kovasb	tight.
19:53	gfredericks	is it really CinC before jvm-clj is finished?
20:01	ohpauleez	gfredericks: what do you mean?
20:01	gfredericks	ohpauleez: just trolling
20:29	frozenlock	Is there a function to recursively replace a matching key in a map with a new value?
20:29	frozenlock	Kinda like `update-in', but for any depth.
20:31	technomancy	frozenlock: clojure.walk might have something
20:32	frozenlock	I must be using it wrong :(
20:32	frozenlock	$(clojure.walk/prewalk #(if (:b %) {:b 10} %) {:a {:b 2 :c {:e 4}}})
20:33	frozenlock	,(clojure.walk/prewalk #(if (:b %) {:b 10} %) {:a {:b 2 :c {:e 4}}})
20:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
20:33	frozenlock	Wut.. it works on my machine.
20:33	frozenlock	Well no it doesn't work, but it gives something -_-
20:34	aperiodic	frozenlock: you probably want (assoc % :b 10) instead of just replacing the map in your then clause
20:34	frozenlock	Of course!
20:35	frozenlock	Works like a charm, thanks to both of you :)
20:36	aperiodic	you're welcome
21:06	devn	how do I update the clojure.org documentation?
21:06	wingy	is there a reference for all functions for a collection, sequence, string etc
21:06	aperiodic	wingy: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
21:07	devn	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
21:07	wingy	cool
21:07	aperiodic	i win this round of "cheatsheet URL quickdraw" ;)
21:07	devn	wingy: you might also be interested in clojureatlas.com
21:07	devn	(ooohhh I just 1up'd you aperiodic)
21:07	wingy	this project seems dead http://clojuredocs.org/
21:08	aperiodic	aw, nuts
21:08	devn	wingy: it's not. I submitted examples recently.
21:09	wingy	havent been updated for a while
21:09	devn	aperiodic: you ever print clojure code with the pretty printer?
21:09	wingy	and its showing 1.3
21:09	devn	wingy: the changes from 1.3 to 1.4 are still pretty small. is there something you're looking for in particular?
21:09	wingy	i couldnt find seq
21:10	aperiodic	devn: i don't recall having done so off the top of my head, why?
21:10	devn	wingy: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.3.0/clojure.core/seq
21:10	wingy	because i was blind
21:10	devn	lol, no worries
21:10	wingy	a lot of references!
21:10	devn	aperiodic: hm, it's just not working like it used to
21:11	devn	wingy: are you referring to the very limited "see also" section?
21:11	wingy	in which reference? im having at least 4 up :)
21:12	wingy	http://clojure.org/Reference http://clojure.github.com/clojure/ http://clojure.org/cheatsheet http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core
21:13	devn	heh, i was referring to the seq examples on clojuredocs
21:13	devn	seq should probably have quite a bit of "see also" in it
21:14	wingy	atlas looks cool
21:14	wingy	and productive
21:17	wingy	a good feature for the REPL could be that when you hit ENTER or enter it for the first time it will place you in (_)
21:17	wingy	no need to type () all the time
21:18	amalloy	wingy: i kinda have to point out that (a) you type parens all the time anyway, and (b) that makes lots of things impossible, such as printing [(foo) (bar)] or clojure-version
21:19	wingy	one backspace for deleting them
21:19	wingy	since they are paired .. but probably unnecessary since its just a simple repl
21:20	devn	wingy: yeah, that's up to other tools IMO
21:20	wingy	actually better without since now you can copy paste :)
21:20	wingy	i thought i was smart
21:22	wingy	he has a great product but the demo is killing it .. cut it down to 1-2 min .. im falling asleep
21:26	wingy	anyone here using Atlas? do you recommend it?
21:28	brehaut	wingy, im pretty sure cemerick would recommend it ;)
21:29	wingy	he's the author?
21:29	brehaut	yes
21:46	alfred1	is there a clojure wrapper for neo4j, the graph database?
21:51	wingy	alfred1: https://github.com/mattrepl/clojure-neo4j
21:51	wingy	this is a better one i think: https://github.com/michaelklishin/neocons
21:51	clojurebot	Ok.
21:51	wingy	clojurebot: ?
21:51	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
21:51	wingy	clojurebot: i bet
21:51	clojurebot	sharing code between client and server is not as simple or great as it sounds: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2011/03/30/js-on-server-and-client-is-not-a-big-deal/
21:55	alfred1	second one, neocons, looks cooler, thank you wingy
21:55	wingy	np
21:55	wingy	alfred1: cypher is pretty cool as well .. you can do a lot with it nowadays
21:56	wingy	just a post request to HTTP cypher endpoint
21:57	wingy	CREATE (person {name: {name}, age: {age}})
21:57	wingy	so the need for a lib is smaller with the latest version
21:58	wingy	one of the few things it doesn't do is indexing when you are creating an entity .. that's what i think neocons would help you with
21:59	alfred1	i'v just started tasting neo4j, haven't got clue of what cypher really is, is it the query language used in neo4j?
21:59	wingy	yeah for CRUD
21:59	wingy	and traversal
22:00	wingy	(wingy)-[:LIKES {since: "yesterday"}]->({name: "Clojure"})
22:01	alfred1	cool.
22:15	eck	what is generally used for parsing command line flags/options
22:16	aperiodic	eck: I usually use https://github.com/clojure/tools.cli
22:16	eck	cool, thanks
22:17	gtuckerkellogg	aperiodic, how to you find that compares to clojopts?
22:23	aperiodic	gtuckerkellogg: i haven't used clojopts before (or heard of it, even). it looks pretty similar, but a bit nicer, with the only thing missing being a handy way to create flags.
22:25	frozenlock	If I want to change a static variable in a jar, could I just open the .clj inside the jar, change the value, save and close? This way I could make "personalized" jar without doing lein uberjar each time.
22:35	wingy	i cant distinguish lists and seqs
22:36	wingy	they look the same
22:36	amalloy	good. don't distinguish them. just treat them as seqs
22:37	wingy	amalloy: thats the way?
22:37	Scriptor	wingy: they're supposed to have the same interface, what do you need to differentiate them for, might be able to solve the source of the problem
22:37	wingy	reading Clojure Programming
22:37	wingy	"Sequences are not lists"
22:38	Scriptor	not all sequences are lists, yes
22:38	wingy	donno .. i guess i just want to know the details when someone say list or seq
22:38	wingy	'(1 2 3)
22:38	wingy	is that a list or seq
22:38	Scriptor	that's specifically a list
22:39	Scriptor	but lists implement the interface for seqs
22:39	Scriptor	first, rest, next
22:39	TimMc	lists happen to be seqs.
22:39	Scriptor	yep
22:39	wingy	ok seq is an interface
22:39	Scriptor	all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares
22:39	Scriptor	same things
22:39	TimMc	wingy: No, seq is an abstraction.
22:39	wingy	ok
22:39	Scriptor	wingy: yes, ISeq is the name of the actual interface
22:39	wingy	TimMc: Hah!
22:39	Scriptor	well, TimMc is also right
22:40	Scriptor	when we talk about seqs, we talk about the general idea
22:40	Scriptor	and ISeq is just the code that implements that idea
22:40	TimMc	e.g., nil can be used in the seq abstraction, but does not implement ISeq
22:40	wingy	so now this is a seq: (seq '(1 2 3))
22:40	Scriptor	'(1 2 3) is also a seq
22:40	wingy	oh yeah .. that implements seq as abstraction/interface
22:41	TimMc	'(1 2 3) is reflectively a seq; (seq '(1 2 3)) is... semantically? a seq.
22:41	wingy	so there is no need for doing: (seq '(1 2 3))
22:41	Scriptor	here's ISeq.java https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/ISeq.java
22:41	wingy	since '(1 2 3) is already a seq?
22:41	Scriptor	it's astoundingly simple
22:41	Scriptor	right
22:41	ideally_world	has anyone here been able to get Slime to work with ClojureScriptOne?
22:42	TimMc	wingy: If this seems confusing, you're right -- this is a grungy part of Clojure that incurs a bit of cognitive load.
22:42	wingy	so "string" is also a seq?
22:42	TimMc	Nope!
22:42	wingy	since we can do first on it
22:42	Scriptor	nah, that just "happens" to be able to support first
22:42	TimMc	wingy: 'first calls 'seq on its arg.
22:43	TimMc	This is true of a lot of seq-consuming fns.
22:43	wingy	ah
22:43	amalloy	wingy: strings and vectors are seqable, but not seqs
22:43	TimMc	And the fn 'seqable? is a lie.
22:43	wingy	is a list seqable or a seq?
22:43	TimMc	Yes.
22:43	TimMc	(Both.)
22:43	Scriptor	list is a seq
22:43	wingy	is list the only seq?
22:43	amalloy	it is a seq, and implements seqable by returning itself
22:44	TimMc	wingy: (range), (seq [1 2 3]), and (cons 5 []) are all different kinds of seqs.
22:44	Scriptor	wingy: no, there's also lazy lists
22:44	ideally_world	seq is seqable, but seqalbe isn't necessarily a seq?
22:44	wingy	ideally_world: thats sounds right
22:44	Scriptor	ideally_world: seqable just means you can call (seq ...) on it and it will reqturn a valid seq
22:44	TimMc	or nil
22:45	TimMc	&(seq [])
22:45	lazybot	⇒ nil
22:45	TimMc	Nil-punning is a hell of a drug.
22:45	Scriptor	check out the java source for first() https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L564
22:45	wingy	ok there are different kinds of lists .. they are all seqs and seqable
22:45	wingy	so only lists are seqs?
22:45	Scriptor	not quite
22:46	Scriptor	(cons x ...) returns, internally, a cons object
22:46	joshua__	&(source seq)
22:46	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
22:46	wingy	this is bad design shouldnt be this hard to get haha
22:46	TimMc	wingy: (range), (seq [1 2 3]), and (cons 5 []) are not lists!
22:46	Scriptor	again something you can see by looking at the source! https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L554
22:46	TimMc	wingy: Half bad idea, half good idea.
22:47	Scriptor	yea, once you internalize it it makes a lot of sense
22:47	wingy	Scriptor: im not a source code guy :/
22:47	wingy	yet
22:47	Scriptor	ah, still, try to check them out
22:47	TimMc	wingy: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html
22:47	Scriptor	the functions are pretty small
22:48	Scriptor	for example, in cons, you can see that (unless you're consing onto null, ignore that for now) you get: return new Cons(...)
22:48	Scriptor	so an object of the class Cons, which is a different class than what lists use
22:48	Scriptor	however, both Cons and PersistentList (the class for lists) are seqs
22:49	brehaut	where does the .lein directory (and thus the lein2 profile.clj) live on windows?
22:51	wingy	cool to look at the source
22:51	wingy	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/IPersistentCollection.java
22:51	Scriptor	right? :)
22:51	wingy	all collections are seqable
22:51	wingy	but the doc should make that clear
22:52	wingy	is there a way to know that all collections are seqable besides looking from the source?
22:52	xeqi	brehaut: reading the shell script mentions %USERPROFILE%\.lein
22:52	brehaut	xeqi: thanks
22:53	wingy	i hope light table fixes this in the future .. no more jumping around
22:53	wingy	that's their goal i guess
22:53	technomancy	wingy: there's no way to tell
22:54	wingy	i have like 4-5 references up
22:54	technomancy	just try it
22:54	wingy	actually there is
22:54	wingy	if the java doc was generated
22:54	wingy	and we get something like this: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/index.html?java/lang/String.html
22:55	metellus	i don't really see why you would need to know about seqable at all, unless you were digging into clojure's internals
22:55	aperiodic	wingy: http://clojure.org/data_structures notes that all collections support sequencing
22:55	wingy	its confusing to not knowing the differences when you are trying to learn a programming language .. you dont know how its all related and dont know how to look it up
22:56	technomancy	don't look it up
22:56	technomancy	try it in the repl
23:00	PeregrinePDX	Indeed I think I've learned more from just trying in a repl
23:00	PeregrinePDX	with the occasional (doc ) in the repl as well
23:06	TimMc	"Empirical programming", a coworker called it.
23:06	aniero	hey, i'm trying to figure out the best concurrency mechanism in clojure to use for wrapping a Process
23:07	aniero	i've got multiple incoming threads that need to access it, but it may or may not be running yet, or may have failed, or whatever the case may be, and i need to have all but the first thread waiting for the process to start correctly before proceeding, while the first thread in sets it all up
23:08	aniero	the best i can think of is to use an agent for the Process, and use (await (send-off (find or create ...))), but joy of clojure implies this is an antipattern
23:09	brehaut	,(let [p (promise)] (dotimes [n 5] (future (do @p (prn "done")))) (Thread/sleep 3000) (deliver p true)) ;; no idea if this is a good idea
23:09	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
23:10	brehaut	&(let [p (promise)] (dotimes [n 5] (future (do @p (prn "done")))) (Thread/sleep 3000) (deliver p true)) ;; is lazybot my friend?
23:10	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
23:10	brehaut	nope
23:10	TimMc	Hey, clourebot used to allow threads, yeah?
23:10	brehaut	i thought so
23:11	brehaut	but hiredman has been tweaking his eval recently
23:11	xeqi	hiredman did some security updates recently.. threads might have been a casuality
23:11	wingy	the book says (range 1 5) is returning a collection
23:11	wingy	but the repl and doc says seq
23:11	TimMc	wingy: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html
23:12	aniero	brehaut: hm, use a promise to say "hey, this thing is all good"?
23:12	brehaut	aniero: maybe? misuse of promises is a great way to deadlock though
23:13	aniero	hmmm, if i create the promise at init time before letting any of the threads through, there won't be a race condition for initializing it either... hm.
23:13	technomancy	aniero: does it have to be synchronous? you could use in-process queues
23:13	xeqi	Raynes: I saw the clojail update, is lazybot updated too?
23:14	aniero	technomancy: first thread in needs to initialize some stuff, anything coming in during that needs to wait, after that everything's fine
23:14	aniero	this is on-demand or i'd do the initialization first :)
23:14	brehaut	(let [p1 (promise) p2 (promise)] (future (do @p1 (deliver p2 :done))) @p2 (deliver p1 :done)) ;; aniero
23:14	cemerick	wingy: all seqs are collections, too
23:15	cemerick	,(coll? (range 1 5))
23:15	clojurebot	true
23:15	wingy	yeah
23:16	wingy	so we have two seqs
23:16	wingy	(range) and '()
23:16	amalloy	brehaut: that...never terminates, right?
23:16	brehaut	amalloy: correct
23:17	brehaut	amalloy: just showing that its easy to deadlock with promises, even if they are created before they are used
23:17	wingy	what would i do without that reference
23:17	technomancy	wingy: it occurs to me that you're heading towards burning out on splitting hairs and would have a lot more fun if you just got to coding; most of this stuff makes sense once you've been using it for a while
23:18	wingy	technomancy: no going forward without knowing!
23:18	brehaut	wingy: not knowing never stopped a PHP programmer ;)
23:18	wingy	i feel happier to read on when i dont ignore things
23:18	aperiodic	aniero: in this sort of situation i use an atom that initially holds nil, and to decide which thread does the init, they (swap! atom (fn [id] (or id (.getId (Thread/currentThread)))) and see if the swapped value was their id
23:18	wingy	thats why they are using PHP
23:18	wingy	if they only knew
23:18	cemerick	wingy: non satis non scire
23:19	wingy	php was my first lang
23:19	wingy	no it was bash
23:19	aperiodic	heh, my first lang was ActionScript2
23:19	wingy	no . dos!
23:20	TimMc	You freaks. Mine was English.
23:20	TimMc	I still don't know how it works.
23:20	aperiodic	nobody does, that's why it's so much fun
23:20	aniero	aperiodic: ah, so when a thread sees that it didn't set its own id, it waits somehow for the winner to do its job?
23:21	aperiodic	aniero: yeah, and you can use a promise for that w/out deadlock; winner delivers, everyone else derefs
23:22	technomancy	huh; did github switch back to showing SSH clone URLs by default? thank goodness
23:23	wingy	why did they show HTTPS
23:23	technomancy	ugh
23:23	wingy	wanted to add security?
23:23	aniero	aperiodic: (let [id (.getId (Thread/currentThread)] (if (= (swap! a (fn [i] (or i id)))) (do (initialize) (deliver p)) (deref p)
23:23	technomancy	because some pitiable souls have horrible firewalls, I think
23:24	technomancy	maybe also so you could use the same URL for public clones and pushes
23:24	aperiodic	aniero: looks good, except you're missing the comparison to id (that is, = only has one arg)
23:24	aniero	er, right. but cool, ok!
23:25	hircus	LauJensen: ping
23:25	aniero	and then i get to figure out how to handle timeouts / restarts of that shared resource...
23:25	technomancy	hircus: hey, how goes the packaging?
23:27	aniero	aperiodic: thanks!
23:28	aperiodic	aniero: you're welcome!
23:29	TimMc	technomancy: When I wrote to them to tell them they were showing HTTPS by default, they said "That's a known bug, we have a ticket open to get it fixed."
23:29	TimMc	That was June 4.
23:29	technomancy	oh, cool
23:29	TimMc	Or... hmm. That was re: showing HTTPS in the new-repo instructions, which is a bit different.
23:31	wingy	(cons [1 2] [4 5 6])
23:31	wingy	Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is
23:31	wingy	the rest.
23:31	wingy	the last one is not a seq!
23:31	TimMc	It gets seq'd.
23:32	wingy	lol
23:32	TimMc	&(type (rest (cons 1 [2 3])))
23:32	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
23:37	wingy	i guess i dont want to know the details after all
23:38	wingy	as long as it just works
23:38	brehaut	TimMc: surely you mean 'class not 'type
23:38	TimMc	brehaut: Surely I do!
23:38	TimMc	Bad PHP and Python habits.
23:38	brehaut	off
23:44	cemerick	What's wrong with type? A bit of a child of its times, but…
23:49	TimMc	One rarely wants the ad-hoc hierarchy info.
23:49	amalloy	TimMc: if a multimethod dispatches on type, as print-method does, you can customize how a particular instance of a single class behaves by giving it metadata
23:49	hircus	technomancy: hullo! going well, but Leiningen itself is stalled on some Maven2 packaging bugs
23:50	amalloy	eg, serializable-fn uses this to make closures serialize
23:51	hircus	(the Maven2 maintainer wanted to wait for some packaging guideline clarification before creating more Maven2 compatibility modules, and right now the shipped modules are... er, missing dependencies). can Leiningen 1.x work with Maven 3?
23:57	JulioBarros	Anyone know of an easy way to generate the SHA1 hash of a file?
23:57	JulioBarros	Or of a project I could borrow some code from?
23:58	wingy	are you guys unit testing your functions?