#clojure – 2012-06-27

2012-06-27

00:00	technomancy	the one thing that still makes ido-ubiquitous crawl
00:00	brehaut	technomancy: awesome. tab completes pile of poo very quickly
00:00	technomancy	brehaut: insist on nothing less
00:00	talios	You emacs people scare me.
00:01	technomancy	why is there no XMPP library on github called "gom jabbar"?
00:02	technomancy	that's the Internet for you. full of disappointment.
00:02	brehaut	talios: its much faster than Cmd-Alt-T, Emoji, People and scrolling around to find it
00:02	brehaut	(inc technomancy)
00:02	lazybot	⇒ 27
00:02	technomancy	emoji are for people who haven't bothered exploring the rest of the unicode plane =P
00:03	brehaut	technomancy: if its not poo, or interrobangs i dont care :P
00:05	technomancy	huh; I thought you could fork projects that were forks of your own on github as long as they changed the name
00:05	PeregrinePDX	There streo audio again now I can go back to playing with overtone.
00:06	PeregrinePDX	stereo even
00:37	xeqi	ohh, clojurebot runs everything in a custom classloader, neat
00:43	spoon16	Got a question about converting a vector of maps to a nested multimap… any help would be appreciated. http://stackoverflow.com/q/11219512/3957
00:49	antares_	spoon16: you need a combination of group by and map, give me a minute to write an example
00:51	antares_	spoon16: are you grouping by :customer or :country?
00:56	antares_	spoon16: answered
00:56	xeqi	antares_: don't you need an (apply merge ..)?
00:58	antares_	xeqi: I need to add first
00:58	antares_	not sure what can be merged there
00:59	spoon16	antares_: close
00:59	spoon16	I added a comment
01:00	spoon16	I'll play around with your approach a bit, but it looks like it's losing "cid2" at the top level
01:00	spoon16	ohhh man, I see the first call now
01:00	antares_	let me see
01:00	spoon16	just read it I guess :)
01:00	antares_	I may know why
01:00	spoon16	it works
01:00	antares_	oh, hm
01:00	spoon16	it's just the (first) call in your answer… you should remove that for clarity
01:00	antares_	yeah it was a bad idea to add it
01:01	spoon16	thanks for the help
01:01	antares_	corrected
01:02	antares_	the point really is that you should use clojure.core/group-by and then it is as easy as producing a collection out of another collection
01:02	antares_	spoon16: by the way, if you need specifically a vector, add (vec …). map produces a lazy sequence.
01:16	antares_	Raynes: just checking: are you still interested in me migrating refheap to monger?
01:17	Raynes	antares_: If it still supports mongodb URIs, then you bet.
01:17	antares_	if I remove it some heroku uses will tear me apart
01:18	Raynes	antares_: Yeah, like me. :p
01:19	muhoo	trippy https://github.com/antler/caribou-core
01:32	michaelr`	hrr
01:32	michaelr`	anyone here understands tomcat? i've set up three hosts in server.xml and it seems that requests for one host is routed to all of them (resulting mostly in 404)
01:32	michaelr`	does it sound familiar?
01:33	antares_	michaelr`: it probably means that you set up all of them to handle / or * paths
01:34	michaelr`	isn't it supposed to route by hostname?
01:35	michaelr`	i'm talking about multiple domain names, not multiple webapps under the same domain
01:36	michaelr`	antares_: ^^
01:37	antares_	michaelr`: tomcat typically routes on paths. Frontend Web servers like apache or nginx typically separate vhosts by domain name, that's true
01:37	antares_	michaelr`: can you show your web descriptor?
01:37	michaelr`	i found this in the documentation: "Note that the directory structures under the appBase for each host should not overlap each other."
01:38	michaelr`	maybe that's my problem
01:38	michaelr`	i placed them like /webapps/host1 and /webapps/host2
01:39	michaelr`	one sec i'll paste the config
01:40	antares_	michaelr`: it's has been a while I touched tomcat but looks like you map hosts to apps in server.xml: http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-7.0-doc/virtual-hosting-howto.html
01:56	michaelr`	antares_: fixing the overlapping appbase paths didn't help
01:56	michaelr`	the requests are still distributed among the three hosts
01:56	michaelr`	tomcat is soooooo anoying
03:37	kral	namaste
05:40	SrPx	I know you hate this kind of question but please help me deciding what to learn, CL or Clojure? I'm not sure I get the differences very well.
05:44	hyPiRion	SrPx: ##(first (shuffle '[Clojure CL]))
05:44	lazybot	⇒ CL
05:45	hyPiRion	SrPx: But from jokes to seriousness, I need to know what you want to learn.
05:46	hyPiRion	Do you want to learn a new language for fun, for learning lisp, for productivity, or for understanding new paradigms?
05:47	Bronsa	,(rand-nth '[Clojure CL])
05:47	clojurebot	Clojure
05:49	antares_	CL has some cruft in it and is not practical today
05:49	AWizzArd	antares_: flaming?
05:49	antares_	Clojure does not have the cruft, has good time/concurrency story, very nice community and is practical
05:50	antares_	AWizzArd: just expressing my opinion
05:50	SrPx	hyPiRion: heh! I've thought that, seriously
05:50	SrPx	hyPiRion: +1 for actual code, nice
05:51	SrPx	hyPiRion: all of them, but I am kind of hoping this will be the language I will be able to build my big libs in and use for the rest of my life
05:51	lucian	clojure is sort of tied to the JVM (at least for now). that's both useful and very annoying
05:51	SrPx	antares_: what is cruft?
05:51	SrPx	lucian: why annoying?
05:51	lucian	SrPx: because it's the fucking jvm :)
05:52	SrPx	is this bad? :/
05:52	lucian	sort of. it's also good
05:52	antares_	SrPx: stuff that many people would drop from the language or change, but cannot because of serious backwards compatibility issues
05:52	lucian	many libs, excellent JIT, good GC. terrible start up time
05:52	hyPiRion	It's slow to load, so scripts may take quite a while.
05:52	lucian	also harder to install/manage than other runtimes
05:52	antares_	Clojure also runs on .NET, JavaScript VMs and even Python (not sure about how mature that port is)
05:52	antares_	CL does not
05:53	Bronsa	eg, just running the repl takes at least .5 seconds
05:53	hyPiRion	SrPx: My personal opinion though, is that programming Clojure is more... fun.
05:53	SrPx	but why?
05:53	SrPx	What are the actual differences?
05:54	SrPx	on the languages themselves
05:54	lucian	antares_: actually, CL runs there too in some shape or form. and sadly, clojure is only self-hosted on the JVM
05:54	SrPx	lucian: terrible start up time?
05:54	lucian	the jvm takes seconds to start up, as opposed to miliseconds
05:54	lucian	one major difference is that Clojure is a Lisp-1, and CL is a Lisp-2
05:54	SrPx	antares_: what, it can call python code from inside the language?
05:54	antares_	SrPx: yes
05:54	lucian	SrPx: with clojure-py, yes
05:54	SrPx	antares_: like calling any function I code on python?
05:54	antares_	SrPx: in CL, data structures are mutable and you don't have the same concurrency primitives. As far as lisps go, they are quite close
05:54	SrPx	does anyone know how mature is that?
05:54	lucian	but even that is hosted on the JVM
05:55	lucian	SrPx: it's not exactly mature. does appear to work fine, though
05:55	antares_	SrPx: yes, on any platform Clojure has implementations on it interoperates with the VM or language
05:55	Bronsa	SrPx you can do the same for java on the JVM
05:55	antares_	so ClojureCLR can use C# and maybe even F#, JVM Clojure interoperates with Java, ClojureScript with JavaScript and clojure-py with Python
05:55	SrPx	also again (I really don't know, am gathering opinions) is the immutability a problem for any of you? or the opposite?
05:55	SrPx	antares_: that sounds really good
05:56	Bronsa	it's a terrific feature, not a problem
05:56	SrPx	terrific?
05:56	lucian	it makes concurrency easy
05:56	Bronsa	incredibly good
05:56	Bronsa	:)
05:56	SrPx	oh okay
05:56	lucian	it also makes it easier to reason about certain things
05:56	Bronsa	as in awesome
05:56	hyPiRion	SrPx: Generally immutability is a good thing, but it takes some time to wrap your head around it.
05:56	antares_	SrPx: immutability is one of the key reasons why I use Clojure for many heavy lifting kind of things
05:56	SrPx	but does it make it harder for coding?
05:56	lucian	also, you're free to use mutable data structures if you wish to
05:56	antares_	SrPx: why don't you try
05:56	antares_	I mean, come on
05:56	Bronsa	you have to change your mindset
05:56	hyPiRion	However, dynamic programming and programming competitions are usually a mess to work with.
05:56	antares_	just learn something, asking questions for days and days won't get you anywhere
05:57	SrPx	I am already trying, but at a point I'll be starting to code a project on one of them and at this point it would be not fun to change minds
05:57	antares_	Google's Java library (Guava) emphasizes immutability
05:57	antares_	Scala has immutable collections and vals
05:57	antares_	and so on
05:57	hyPiRion	SrPx: It's harder if you consider programming a 50-line program, but when you're going larger than that, immutability makes the code way more easier to debug.
05:58	antares_	Erlang goes even further with immutability
05:58	SrPx	hm..
05:58	antares_	so it is not the end of the world or super novel idea, Clojure just bakes it into the core of the language
05:58	antares_	you can use transients everywhere if you choose to, they are just as mutable as most of Java objects
05:58	hyPiRion	SrPx: If you want to program a project, I'd suggest you try out Clojure.
05:59	SrPx	macros are all the same?
05:59	lucian	macros are very similar in the two languages, yes
05:59	hyPiRion	SrPx: They are essentially the same.
05:59	SrPx	multiple dispatch is the same right
05:59	lucian	some might say it's a flaw in both
05:59	antares_	SrPx: macro capabilities are pretty much the same in CL, Clojure and most of Lisps except for really old ones
05:59	lucian	multiple dispatch is better in clojure
05:59	SrPx	lucian: lol?
05:59	SrPx	antares_: okay
06:00	SrPx	lucian: how so
06:00	lucian	SrPx: some might say scheme's hygienic macros are the only good ones
06:00	SrPx	what is hygienic macro
06:00	lucian	clojure multimethods can dispatch arbitrarily, not just on types
06:00	SrPx	what else?
06:00	SrPx	õo
06:00	antares_	SrPx: there are two schools of thinking about some features in macros, they do not limit the power of macros anyway so I consider them largely a matter of taste
06:00	lucian	anything. instead of giving it a type to dispatch on, you give it a function
06:00	lucian	it dispatches on the value that function returns
06:01	lucian	of course that function can be be one that returns the type
06:01	lucian	which will make it behave like CL multimethods
06:01	SrPx	oh I see
06:01	Bronsa	SrPx also, clojure's "`" have automatic namespace qualifying, that helps avoiding variable capture
06:01	SrPx	I didn't understand that namespace thing very well
06:01	hyPiRion	Bronsa: I think you're kind of going too much into detail
06:01	SrPx	a clojure program is pretty much a namespace with some variables
06:02	SrPx	is that correct?
06:02	lucian	Clojure's macros are slightly more hygienic
06:02	lucian	but otherwise extremely similar to CL's
06:02	SrPx	that is, the namespace 'holds' the variables
06:02	antares_	SrPx: namespaces have the same purpose as Python or Java packages
06:02	antares_	or in Python they are called modules, I don't remember
06:02	lucian	yes
06:02	SrPx	hm
06:02	SrPx	hold on let me open the manul
06:02	hyPiRion	SrPx: I would honestly suggest that you write a 1000-line project or something in both.
06:03	hyPiRion	That's the best way of finding "your" language.
06:03	Bronsa	SrPx when you write a macro, you may accidentally shadow some variables, and that is a really hard bug to spot in common lisp; clojure tries his best to avoid that
06:03	mduerksen	SrPx: the thing i like best about clojure: its datastructures. vectors, lists, maps, sets - you can specify all of them as literals ( [], '(), {}, #{}, ), and they all work with all the core clojure functions like map, filter, reduce, out of the box. you also don't have to care about equality (e.g. (= [1 2 3] [1 2 3]), no worry about pointer-equality and stuff)
06:04	hyPiRion	I kind of think of Clojure as immutable python with threads.
06:04	SrPx	hyPiRion: hmm
06:04	SrPx	hyPiRion: this is a good advice
06:04	hyPiRion	SrPx: You'll only get reasons why you should learn Clojure here, and only reasons why you should learn Common Lisp in their channel.
06:04	Bronsa	also, clojure has better package managing tools, see leiningen
06:04	SrPx	mduerksen: this was also a good point
06:04	lucian	hyPiRion: i have a similar impression :)
06:05	SrPx	hyPiRion: I know, it is okay
06:05	SrPx	at least I can compare
06:05	SrPx	both are looking awesome and have great communities
06:05	hyPiRion	SrPx: Yeah, but I'm just saying it's subjective.
06:06	lucian	as a mostly-python developer, i'd say go with clojure
06:06	lucian	for what that statement is worth
06:12	nonrecursive	SrPx: I started out with common lisp back in november but started doing clojure a few weeks ago and enjoy it much more
06:13	SrPx	nonrecursive: hmm
06:13	SrPx	nonrecursive: could you elaborate? (:
06:14	old_sound	hi do you think clojure is good for me?
06:14	nonrecursive	SrPx: it's just harder to get stuff done in CL - as Bronsa mentioned the package management is much better, which really makes a big difference. You also have more libraries thanks to Java, and Clojure's syntax is much more terse
06:15	lucian	hg st
06:15	lucian	damn, this isn't my terminal
06:15	AWizzArd	antares_: again, an uninformed statement that you made, about CL.
06:15	antares_	AWizzArd: which one?
06:15	nonrecursive	SrPx: another nice thing about Clojure is that it has more good lisp ideas "built in", whereas in CL you'll have to build up those ideas yourself or else they're defined in an implementation-specific way
06:15	SrPx	AWizzArd: ?
06:15	SrPx	nonrecursive: for example?
06:16	nonrecursive	SrPx: which is another issue, there are many implementations of CL, so that's something else you have to navigate
06:16	nonrecursive	SrPx: gensym - in CL it's implementation-specific
06:16	nonrecursive	SrPx: wait i take that back
06:16	nonrecursive	SrPx: with-gensysms is implementation-specific. In Clojure with-gensysms isn't even necessary because of the way gensyms are handled
06:17	antares_	AWizzArd: sorry but I could not care less about your comments. I am not trying to be 100% correct, just give SrPx a high-level idea of how CL compares to Clojure in practical terms. In practical terms things like peculiarities of macro writing matter less than things like Java/JS/C# interop.
06:17	SrPx	I dont know what a gensym is, I'm googling that wait
06:17	nonrecursive	SrPx: in clojure you also get function composition for free, as well as partial functions
06:17	SrPx	AWizzArd: this is true
06:17	SrPx	antares_: you are being very helpful, thanks
06:17	lucian	nonrecursive: those aren't built-in in CL?
06:17	SrPx	AWizzArd: but I would like to hear you reasoning
06:17	AWizzArd	CL can run on the JVM, and use all data structures that Clojure has.
06:18	nonrecursive	lucian: as far as I could tell from, you need to write the macros for those yourself
06:18	SrPx	nonrecursive: hmm true
06:18	AWizzArd	It is mostly a syntactical difference, Lisp1 vs LispN.
06:18	AWizzArd	Clojure is a bit more efficient.
06:18	lucian	nonrecursive: really? i'd hope at least they can be written as functions
06:18	AWizzArd	Nearly all syntax from Clojure can be integrated into CL within a matter of hours.
06:19	AWizzArd	In principle you can program CL on the JVM and make it nearly feel like Clojure.
06:19	AWizzArd	Clojure is a bit more cleaned up, and a bit more consistent with its names.
06:19	nonrecursive	lucian: or the functions - but you still have to write it yourself
06:19	lucian	nonrecursive: right
06:19	nonrecursive	lucian: which isn't a huge deal, I mean just copy it from OnLisp, but it's nice to have it included in the language as in Clojure because that way you everyone's on the same page
06:19	AWizzArd	But it also lacks some important features, which it will probably get over the next years.
06:20	AWizzArd	There are tons more of implementations for CL than there are for CLJ.
06:21	AWizzArd	I personally prefer Clojure and do use it since 2008. But from an objective point of view, CL is not really significantly “worse” than CLJ.
06:21	lucian	AWizzArd: i don't believe anyone here claimed that
06:22	AWizzArd	I read a statement some minutes ago: “CL has some cruft in it and is not practical today”. This is BS. It is +/- as practical as Clojure.
06:22	AWizzArd	Clojure does not yet have the cruft, because it still is too young. But then again, Clojure misses some useful features that CL has.
06:23	AWizzArd	For example CL has a nice support for conditional compilation. This is useful as soon there are multiple implementations that you want to target.
06:23	AWizzArd	The features list I mean, and the #+ and #- reader macros.
06:24	nonrecursive	SrPx: from the standpoint of learning a lisp, it might be better to go with CL because there are some great resources available. Land of Lisp, On Lisp, Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence. Those all use Common Lisp, and it might be better to learn that instead of trying to translate into Clojure when you're first starting. I started with Land of Lisp and it was great fun.
06:24	AWizzArd	And as it runs on the JVM it can use all the nice data structures of Scala and Clojure too. Lazyness, Agents that synchronize over multiple computers, JavaFX UIs, all Clojure libraries, etc.
06:24	nonrecursive	SrPx: But in terms of actually being able to make stuff I'm having an easier time with Clojure
06:25	AWizzArd	In the end it boils down to a time investment of a few days to make the usage of all those libs look nice in CL. What remains mostly is that CL will have some syntactic differences here and there.
06:26	AWizzArd	Clojure is nicer to use, and does not require an initial time investment.
06:26	AWizzArd	I personally would always prefer it over CL, if I can. But objectively speaking… not a too dramatic difference.
06:28	SrPx	AWizzArd: thanks ...
06:30	SrPx	something that came to my mind now
06:30	SrPx	as he pointed, clojure is new... so I guess if I ever need to find determined macro/function/etc, it is more likely that it will be available for cl but not for clojure
06:31	SrPx	could this be a worry?
06:31	SrPx	or does clojure already have all the important stuff?
06:31	SrPx	or would converting be so easy it didnt matter?
06:32	lucian	being able to use java libs is a significant advantage
06:32	gtuckerkellogg	clojure is advancing very fast
06:35	dbushenko	SrPx, I'd say, there is more libs for clojure even then for CL
06:35	SrPx	hm
06:35	dbushenko	and if you take into account the java libs legacy... I think its obvious that Clojure is more practical then CL
06:36	mduerksen	AWizzArd: i don't know CL much, but you said "CL can run on the JVM." how would you do that?
06:36	dbushenko	mduerksen, abcl runs on jvm
06:36	nonrecursive	SrPx: you probably won't have a difficult time translating CL to Clojure in 99% of cases
06:37	dbushenko	but abcl integrates with java badly
06:38	mduerksen	dbushenko: ah, thanks
06:38	AWizzArd	yup, abcl I meant
06:39	AWizzArd	abcl would require 1-2 days of work to get a nice java interop.
06:49	SrPx	hey guys gtg now
06:50	SrPx	thank you all for the w ords
06:52	wmealing	so, i'm wondering about adding a jar to clojars.org .. Ive found a clj lib thats been neglected for a while.. sent the author a push request 48 hours ago
06:52	wmealing	maybe he's busy, or maybe he's given up coding, i can't tell
06:52	wmealing	is it bad karma to push a revision to clojars with the same name
06:53	wmealing	newer version etc ?
06:56	dbushenko	wmealing, create your own groupid for the artifact
06:57	michaelr`	moved away from tomcat to nginx+tjws - feel much better now, finally things begin to work as they should instead of all kind of unexplained tomcat weird shit
06:57	michaelr`	:)
07:01	wmealing	dbushenko, okay.
07:04	dbushenko	michaelr`, and what went wrong with tomcat?
07:05	antares_	wmealing: you should change group id and publish it as your fork that way
07:06	wmealing	antares_, thats the first element after defproject ?
07:06	antares_	wmealing: in com.novemberain/monger, it is "com.novemberain"
07:06	wmealing	antares_, org.clojars.wmealing/oldthing-name
07:06	antares_	it may be omitted completely
07:06	wmealing	ok
07:06	antares_	then just add it
07:07	antares_	yes, like that
07:08	wmealing	well, that was painless
07:08	wmealing	thanks
07:38	nonrecursive	when I want to use protocol method, do the usual namespace rules apply? For example, if the protocol is defined in "protocol-test.core", will I need to call "protocol-test.core/some-method" ?
07:39	Bronsa	yes
07:40	nonrecursive	thanks
07:42	michaelr`	dbushenko: well, first i had a problem using the aliases attribute. it just didn't work, and no one on the tomcat mailing list knew why
07:42	michaelr`	and today in the last two days i tried to setup multiple hosts in one instance of tomcat and it didn't work right either
07:43	michaelr`	yesterday and today :)
07:44	michaelr`	lost's of xml configuration and conventions spread across directories and files
07:44	ktsuji	is there a way to suppress "All namespaces already :aot compiled." output when calling lein run with leiningen2?
07:44	michaelr`	s/lots
07:45	AWizzArd	Is there a way, in a Leiningen 2 project, to check for which of my dependencies a newer version is available?
07:46	AWizzArd	-for
07:47	michaelr`	i usually just run 'lein clean;lein deps'
07:48	michaelr`	ah, wait that's not what you asked
07:48	michaelr`	never mind
07:51	AWizzArd	I thought about something such as “lein check-updates” ==> prints “You are currently depending on [org.clojure/java.jdbc "0.2.2"]. Now [org.clojure/java.jdbc "0.2.3"] is available.”
07:51	antares_	AWizzArd: there is no but with upcoming clojars improvements it will be possible
07:52	antares_	AWizzArd: the key is to have an API hook on the clojars side. Not sure how it should work for other Maven repos, though, but there are ways around it
07:54	AWizzArd	Perhaps http://search.maven.org/#api provides some useful functionality.
07:54	AWizzArd	The REST API, which returns json.
07:54	antares_	nice
07:55	antares_	then it should be doable
07:55	antares_	but I think technomancy will ask for it to be a plugin
07:55	AWizzArd	sure
07:56	antares_	AWizzArd: talk to xeqi, he is the man to talk to about Maven repos indexing and related topics
07:58	mduerksen	enlive question: [:div (attr? :some-attr)] selects any element with the attr contained in a div. how do i select a div that also has the attr?
07:59	mduerksen	in other words, how do i AND predicates?
08:02	mduerksen	the enlive readme seems to attempt to show this, but there must be a typo
08:05	mduerksen	nevermind, i found it. and the readme-page on github has indeed a typo
08:46	Chiron_	Hi, would you please have a look at section "composite columns" https://github.com/Netflix/astyanax/wiki/Getting-Started How to mimic that in Clojure code?
08:46	Chiron_	I'm talking about SessionEvent
08:48	antares_	Chiron: annotations in Clojure are only possible via gen-class and it is a relatively unknown feature
08:49	Chiron	:/
08:49	antares_	that said, annotations are only typically necessary in Java because of Java's own limitations
08:49	antares_	try modelling composite columns using maps and vectors first
08:49	Chiron	in case of Astyanax, annotations are necessary
08:50	Chiron	I guess I will wait till the next week ;)
08:53	cemerick	Chiron, antares_: annotations can be used on any of gen-class, defrecord, or deftype
08:53	cemerick	Probably reify as well, but likely only at method- and argument-level there.
08:54	Chiron	cemerick: I have to thank you for your book, it was really amazing but I have one thing. I was expecting much more on Macros treatment
08:55	Chiron	IMHO
08:55	cemerick	I'm sorry to hear that. I hope the rest of it makes up for it.
08:56	Chiron	it was amazing, i learned a lot . I'm a better Clojure programmer because of it
08:56	Chiron	but you raised the bar so high :)
08:56	N8Dawg	hi, has anyone here had experience using CDT, i'm trying to set a breakpoint on an anonymous function, is that even possible?
08:56	foxdonut	cemerick: I am enjoying the book, as well. How did the three of you split up authoring the chapters?
08:57	cemerick	foxdonut: No particular method. Mostly based on availability, expertise, and interest.
08:59	Cheiron	data structure treatment was second to none.
08:59	foxdonut	cemerick: it would be interesting to see who wrote which chapters :)
09:02	Cheiron	cemerick: annotation can be used with defrecord/deftype without gen-class , aot?
09:02	cemerick	Cheiron: yes
09:04	cemerick	foxdonut: I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. :-P
09:05	foxdonut	cemerick: ok, it's a deal. :D
09:06	foxdonut	quick and painless please. and if only one can be achieved, just make it quick.
09:08	llasram	Wow, I did not realize that deftype/defrecord allow one to declare annotations
09:09	llasram	The implementation looks kind of insane though... deftype calls out to the Java Compiler to build the deftype'd class, but then Compiler calls back into the in-Clojure `add-annotations` function to add the annotations?
09:10	tbaldridge	the whole deftype system is that way. That's some insanely complex code
09:11	tbaldridge	But that's the fault of the JVM, not clojure
09:21	antares_	cemerick: I have a quick question for you
09:21	antares_	cemerick: I see that (name ::identity) strips off the namespace, is there a version that does not do that but otherwise works as clojure.core/name?
09:22	antares_	cemerick: this is reported for Monger by a Friend user
09:22	cemerick	It's a small irc world. ;-)
09:23	cemerick	antares_: str
09:23	antares_	cemerick: it keeps the :
09:23	cemerick	There's nothing built-in that will give you ns/foo and not :ns/foo
09:23	JulioBarros	antares_ cemerick ... I've been bugging you both this morning :)
09:23	antares_	cemerick: ok, so our best bet is to use str + strip off the :?
09:24	cemerick	antares_: well, the : is important. If this is session storage, you need the : to distinguish between a symbol and a keyword.
09:25	antares_	cemerick: Monger currently stores keywords as strings
09:25	llasram	&(let [kw ::example] (str (namespace kw) "/" (name kw)))
09:25	lazybot	⇒ "clojure.core/example"
09:25	cemerick	Well, that's not going to cut it for session storage. Another library might choose to use symbols.
09:25	cemerick	It's hard to get better than pr-str.
09:27	antares_	cemerick: ok, I will think about it
09:27	antares_	JulioBarros: I am not sure what to suggest, there is Ring session store in Carmine, as far as I know
09:28	antares_	I am thinking about something that would work for Monger and be backwards compatible but so far I can't
09:30	antares_	JulioBarros: I am afraid many session stores that do not try to be Clojure-specific may end up having the same problem
09:30	antares_	Welle's one can use application/clojure data type, though
09:31	antares_	JulioBarros: is running a Riak node for sessions an option for you?
09:32	cemerick	Surely this isn't related to the database per se; the session store just needs to support the full range of Clojure values.
09:32	antares_	cemerick: right
09:32	antares_	but I expect many session stores to choose JSON and not clojure reader
09:33	antares_	just for possible interop scenarios
09:33	antares_	cemerick: I am thinking I can add a friend-friendly session store to monger
09:33	antares_	since we can just use mongodb as a key/value store where values are clojure reader strings
09:35	cemerick	Well, whatever the db uses (JSON or not), a Ring session store impl should translate properly.
09:35	cemerick	That is, this is hardly a friend-specific issue. :-)
09:35	antares_	cemerick: yes but if we store namespaced keyword, a Ruby app won't be able to read that value
09:35	antares_	sure
09:35	Bronsa`	,(into {} (map (juxt identity symbol?) [:a (symbol (str :a))]))
09:35	antares_	I think I have a solution in mind
09:35	clojurebot	{:a false, :a true}
09:35	Bronsa`	wtf
09:36	antares_	JulioBarros: please let me know when you are around again, I have an idea
09:36	cemerick	antares_: Oh! That's an interesting problem, then. Yuck.
09:37	cemerick	Bronsa`: (symbol ":a") is a symbol…
09:38	foxdonut	cemerick: chapter 12 is a little gem. :)
09:38	antares_	cemerick: fortunately, monger.ring.session-store is not documented :)
09:38	antares_	cemerick: I may be able to add a new one and then gradually remove the old
09:38	Bronsa`	cemerick should we be allowed to create symbols prefixed with :?
09:39	Bronsa`	that may cause this to occur
09:39	Bronsa`	,(read-string (pr-str (into {} (map (juxt identity symbol?) [:a (symbol (str :a))]))))
09:39	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
09:40	cemerick	Bronsa`: That debate has been ongoing for ~5 years. :-)
09:41	Bronsa`	I just don't understand why Symbol doesn't throw an exception, but ok
09:42	foxdonut	,(= :a (symbol (str :a)))
09:42	clojurebot	false
09:44	foxdonut	,(= :a (keyword (name :a)))
09:44	clojurebot	true
09:44	foxdonut	,(read-string (pr-str (into {} (map (juxt identity symbol?) [:a (keyword (name :a))]))))
09:44	clojurebot	{:a false}
09:46	Bronsa`	foxdonut yeah, the problem is, symbol creates simbols that the reader cannot read or doesnt read like symbols
09:46	Bronsa`	,(symbol ":::")
09:46	clojurebot	:::
09:46	Bronsa`	,':::
09:47	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :::>
09:47	Bronsa`	I don't see the point in allowing this
09:47	antares_	,(let [s (slurp "http://clojure.org")] (count s))
09:47	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.net.SocketPermission" "clojure.org:80" "connect,resolve")>
09:47	antares_	clojurebot: good boy
09:47	clojurebot	No entiendo
09:47	cemerick	Bronsa`: The general counter-argument is that symbols are used for plenty of things that have nothing to do with printing and reading.
09:48	Bronsa`	I don't think it's a good enough argument, but it's not a big deal anyway, i can live with that :)
10:01	fasta	If you have a 1M line project and you change a few lines, how long does it take before you can see the result of your change? I can imagine that it takes some time to translate to JVM code.
10:02	dnolen	fasta: a 1 million line Clojure project?
10:02	scriptor	fasta: talking about light table?
10:02	fasta	scriptor: oh, please.
10:03	fasta	dnolen: I am just asking a question; there is no need to ask another question back in return.
10:03	dnolen	fasta: was asking for clarification. in general you only need to recompile the lines that change. as usually is the case with Lisps.
10:04	fasta	dnolen: and what about linking?
10:04	dnolen	fasta: not necessary.
10:04	fasta	dnolen: ok, so the whole edit-run cycle abstraction keeps working.
10:04	JulioBarros	antares_: btw, is there a good/default clojure specific database? What if I really needed to store query-able clojure data structures? What could you use?
10:05	dnolen	fasta: also I seriously doubt one would ever reach 1M LOC of Clojure. Largest Clojure projects in production I've heard of are 60K LOC.
10:05	fasta	dnolen: do you think that's some magic upper bound? ;)
10:06	fasta	dnolen: I think one year of development will get you 60KLOC of code already.
10:06	dnolen	fasta: nope
10:06	dnolen	fasta: the big apps I'm aware have been dev'ed for 2-3 years.
10:06	foxdonut	"back in return" is redundant.
10:06	dnolen	20-30k seems normal
10:07	fasta	Can I only call Java stuff or can I also call POSIX and win32 things easily?
10:08	dnolen	fasta: Java stuff is easy, FFI difficulty inherited from Java's support for such things.
10:09	fasta	dnolen: well, I disagree on that.
10:09	dnolen	fasta: disagree on what?
10:09	fasta	dnolen: I think if developers wanted it to be easy, it would be easy.
10:10	fasta	It's perfectly possible to automatically generate interfaces to native libraries.
10:10	dnolen	fasta: sure, some folks have work on OSS libs to make such things easier.
10:10	fasta	Except, there is a reason why that isn't done.
10:10	fasta	It is to make the developers of the new language more in demand.
10:10	fasta	"We need <insert all the old stuff> in the new environment".
10:11	fasta	It took me some time to figure that one out, but in the end that's all it comes down to.
10:11	fasta	Plain economics.
10:11	fasta	Thanks for the answers.
10:11	mduerksen	fasta: it's an issue of priority imho. but i'm not sure you're asking to learn or asking just to be provocative
10:11	tbaldridge	I imagine there has to be a good way to do FFI in Java. It's pretty straightforward in the CLR and Python
10:12	fasta	mduerksen: let me guess: Clojure developer?
10:12	fasta	Really, this couldn't be much more predictable.
10:12	foxdonut	smells like a troll.
10:12	fasta	Smells like another developer.
10:12	antares_	tbaldridge: JNA
10:12	foxdonut	I rest my case.
10:13	fasta	If what I am saying is not true, then please tell me why people release a programming language without proper support for the systems which the rest of the world is using at those points in time.
10:14	antares_	JulioBarros: if you want to store query-able Clojure data structures, I think you need Datomic. MongoDB with Monger is fairly close
10:14	antares_	JulioBarros: if a key/value store would be sufficient, Welle with :content-type "application/clojure" will work great, too
10:14	antares_	Welle is a Riak client: http://clojureriak.info
10:15	antares_	fasta: Clojure is a hosted language. When hosted on JVM and CLR (.NET), it cannot overreach JVM limitations. JVM does not let you work with POSIX APIs because it was designed to be cross platform. ClojureScript on Node.js can use POSIX APIs.
10:16	fasta	antares_: ah, interesting. You are clueless.
10:16	antares_	fasta: also, not sure why all the snark and poision. Just don't use Clojure if you don't like it. Believe it or not, a lot of software does not give a crap about calling POSIX APIs beyond open/write/read
10:16	dnolen	I think everyone can put fasta on ignore at this point.
10:16	tbaldridge	agreed
10:17	kij	who?
10:17	fasta	JNI doesn't exist or what?
10:17	foxdonut	dnolen: agreed, done.
10:18	fasta	I was expecting informed opinions here.
10:18	fasta	Perhaps the people that don't say anything have them.
10:18	antares_	fasta: get a life
10:19	antares_	has been long since I used the ignore command
10:19	fasta	antares_: learn something before you speak.
10:19	fasta	antares_: just because you can type things on a keyboard, doesn't mean that you should answer a question.
10:20	foxdonut	antares_: try /ignore fasta!@ ALL
10:20	foxdonut	then just plain /ignore to see your list
10:20	fasta	foxdonut: go grab a donut.
10:20	antares_	foxdonut: thank you, done
10:20	ldopa	oh shit donut burn
10:21	foxdonut	welcome
10:22	mduerksen	antares_: first time i hear about monger. i've been using congomongo recently. i wonder if i should give monger a first look?
10:22	antares_	mduerksen: everything I say will be biased but take a look at http://clojuremongodb.info :)
10:23	antares_	mduerksen: also, folks in here may be able to tell their experience
10:23	scriptor	nice website
10:23	foxdonut	antares_: I like the look of your page
10:23	scriptor	I'd rename 'Contribute' to just 'Source', though :)
10:23	antares_	monger is a part of a group of EPL-licensed projects, clojurewerkz.org
10:25	kij	Is there any usecase for (defn [] (wrong)) ? (defn []) Tells me i need a name, But (defn [] (wrong)) says: Parameter declaration wrong should be a vector
10:25	antares_	kij: (defn some-name [] …)
10:26	antares_	kij: name goes right after defn and does not need to be wrapped in parens, unless you have a function that you want to call to return the name
10:26	kij	antares_: Yes, its wrong. But the second form mentions "wrong", not defn.
10:26	duck1123	Saying that the parameter declaration is wrong isn't the clearest, but at least it makes you look at the right area of the code
10:27	duck1123	there are certainly less clear error messages out there
10:27	metellus	it's either accepting [] as a valid name or it has issues with the arglist before it checks the validity of [] as a name
10:27	tbaldridge	yeah....some of the error messages in defn, deftype, etc. are a bit wonky like that
10:27	uvtc	scriptor: off-topic, but love the name "scriptor". Sounds like either and autobot or a decepticon. :)
10:28	tbaldridge	Sometimes the macros like defn will parse the arguments in a different order than you think, so they end up throwing errors in a odd way
10:28	scriptor	uvtc: heh, thanks, funny thing is I was thinking history when I first came up with it
10:32	kij	antares_: Did you say something like this should work? (defn (first [aa bb]) [] (println "hey")) - where aa and bb are defined?
10:33	antares_	kij: you don't need parens around the name
10:33	antares_	kij: what are you trying to do?
10:34	metellus	kij: java.lang.RuntimeException: First argument to def must be a Symbol
10:34	kij	antares_: Your comment: "... unless you have a function that you want to call to return the name" Trying that out, and failing :)
10:34	metellus	and I tried wrapping it in (symbol) too
10:35	foxdonut	kij: also (defn a ([x] <handle 1 arg>) ([x y] <handle 2 args>)) to have different arities
10:35	antares_	kij: then try this: (defn name-gen [] (symbol "abc")) (defn (name-gen) [] "I am named abc")
10:35	foxdonut	antares_: didn't know you could do that-- interesting
10:36	kij	antares_: Same :/
10:36	kij	foxdonut: still needs to prove it :)
10:37	Bronsa	(defn #=(gensym) [])
10:38	kij	Bronsa: cheat!
10:39	antares_	kij: well, symbol-generating functions are typically used in the context of a macro
10:39	antares_	but it is possible, without it even fairly basic metaprogramming would not be possible
10:41	antares_	,(defn name-gen [s] (symbol s)) (macroexpand-1 '(defn ~(name-gen "abc") [] "I am named abc"))
10:41	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
10:41	antares_	clojurebot: wha?
10:41	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
10:42	Bronsa	you cant def
10:44	duck1123	kij: So you're looking for an example of where a function is called to produce a symbol to act as the name in a defn (or similar)?
10:46	duck1123	oh well, I thought I had one to show, but it's not quite right
10:49	tbaldridge	okay, I need to send some beer to whomever wrote clojurebot...some of the comments that thing makes are hilarious
10:49	RickInGA	clojurebot: orm
10:49	clojurebot	Object-Relational Mappers are the Vietnam of computer science.
10:49	tbaldridge	lol
10:49	tbaldridge	the one I saw the other day: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure
10:50	tbaldridge	hrm...last time it triggered a comment....let's try this: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj
10:50	duck1123	https://github.com/richhickey/clojure
10:50	tbaldridge	nope...anyways, it said something like "sigh please update your links..."
10:50	RickInGA	ah
10:50	duck1123	clojurebot: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure
10:50	clojurebot	eg, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging is the new version of clojure.contrib.logging
10:52	RickInGA	Is it Raynes who does ClojureBot... don't think he is old enough... you may have to buy him root beer
10:52	antares_	RickInGA: outside of US he is
10:52	scriptor	just take him to canada
10:52	uvtc	teehehe
10:52	tbaldridge	lol
10:53	duck1123	I thought Raynes was lazybot
10:53	TimMc	No, lazybot is Raynes, not the other way around.
10:53	cemerick	clojurebot is hiredman's, lazybot is Raynes'
10:53	uvtc	github says it's hiredman
10:53	scriptor	oh, looks like hiredman might be behind cloj
10:53	scriptor	right
10:53	RickInGA	ok, my bad
10:54	antares_	lazybot: what do you think about clojurebot?
10:54	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
10:54	TimMc	clojurebot: Who's your daddy?
10:54	clojurebot	Pardon?
10:54	duck1123	Raynes once threatened me with bodily harm for getting that mixed up. :)
10:54	uvtc	clojurebot: fight lazybot
10:54	clojurebot	botfight is http://raek.se/botfight.html
10:54	uvtc	!
10:55	_nmmn	clojurebot: add 1 to 2
10:55	clojurebot	Pardon?
10:56	uvtc	$mail raek botfight is http://raek.se/botfight.html appears to be down. Also, lazybot called clojurebot's mom a script.
10:56	lazybot	Message saved.
10:58	uvtc	lazybot: does this work?
10:59	foxdonut	scriptor: are you alluding to our drinking 7% beer at 13 years old?
11:00	scriptor	foxdonut: noooo ;0
11:01	scriptor	my new goal is to get clojurescript accepted for our new project
11:01	scriptor	already asked documentcloud three times about tree-based relationships in backbone without an answer
11:01	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.hmm.
11:02	duck1123	I've been wondering if talking my work into using the Closure compiler would be a good gateway into allowing me to use cljs
11:02	TimMc	nDuff: Try just riddell -- maybe the . is escaped.
11:02	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.escaped.
11:02	TimMc	argh
11:02	foxdonut	how do I get 'A' out of 65?
11:02	nDuff	TimMc: No matches there either.
11:02	TimMc	No, it wouldn't be -- the response has it and isn't a regex.
11:03	metellus	,(char 65)
11:03	clojurebot	\A
11:03	foxdonut	thanks metellus
11:03	TimMc	(constantly "A")
11:03	foxdonut	I was trying chr and for some reason my brain froze after.
11:03	duck1123	,(.charValue \A)
11:03	clojurebot	\A
11:04	duck1123	nope
11:04	scriptor	duck1123: it'd be a good start, I think
11:04	TimMc	&(char \A)
11:04	scriptor	although getting them into a functional style is more of a challenge
11:04	lazybot	⇒ \A
11:04	TimMc	&(int \A)
11:04	lazybot	⇒ 65
11:04	duck1123	,(Character/getNumericValue \A)
11:04	clojurebot	10
11:04	TimMc	heh
11:05	metellus	,(Character/getNumericValue \M)
11:05	clojurebot	22
11:05	metellus	...
11:09	acheng	wouldn't it be nice if you could hand your project.clj to a tool and have it inc all the versions for dependencies to the latest internally-consistent set?
11:10	technomancy	acheng: currently that's impossible to do in a way that would preserve comments
11:10	TimMc	That info isn't machine readable, though -- or even written down, for many deps.
11:10	duck1123	wasn't that the intended goal of "lein outdated" (never had much luck with it)
11:11	cemerick	technomancy: I tinkered with sjacket a bit last month; it's super-promising.
11:11	TimMc	README files of various projects might say "Versions 2.2 thought 4.9-alpha1 will work with Clojure 1.3.0..."
11:11	acheng	technomancy: i guess the user could merge comments in after, using an original
11:12	TimMc	If we had :line/:col info for every form (including strings), one could do substring replaces on the original text block after reading in the file as sexprs.
11:14	acheng	TimMc: maybe the tool could do the next best thing... perhaps collate any available info in a report :-P
11:14	antares_	JulioBarros: please see https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/clojure/monger/ring/session_store.clj
11:14	antares_	JulioBarros: 1.1.0-alpha2 is up on clojars with this new store added
11:15	JulioBarros	antares_: Thanks. I'll check it out.
11:16	TimMc	acheng: That would be quite a useful alternative, although I fear the core functionality is still impossible.
11:16	wingy	would be cool if clojure was used entirely for a very popular web site .. that would boost up popularity even more
11:17	dbushenko	wingy, clojure is already used in Twitter
11:17	dbushenko	for data processing
11:18	uvtc	fortune
11:18	uvtc	$fortune
11:18	lazybot	Never Graduate
11:18	wingy	dbushenko: they combine scala and clojure?
11:18	uvtc	$8ball
11:18	lazybot	uvtc: Outlook good.
11:19	dbushenko	wingy, data processing is done with Storm
11:19	whaley	dbushenko: theyuse storm, which is clojure based
11:19	dbushenko	it is written with clojure, yes
11:19	foxdonut	heh, TDD=Talk-Driven Development?
11:19	dbushenko	foxdonut, :-D
11:20	whaley	oh sorry, that was intended for wingy :(
11:20	gfredericks	why did my `lein run` process spawn up two other java processes after 5 minutes of running?
11:20	xumingmingv	foxdonut: :-D
11:20	acheng	so it sounds like standardized dependency metadata isn't a requirement for putting something in a public repository. that seems odd. usually when i have a good idea, others have already implemented and used hundreds of versions :-P
11:21	whaley	we are becoming very dependent on storm, hence my interest in clojure right now
11:22	gfredericks	do java threads have separate OS pids?
11:22	whaley	gfredericks: nope
11:23	nDuff	...well, "depends on your OS" may be more accurate; at least historically, I recall JVM thread implementations changing back when OS implementations did
11:25	duck1123	So if you're running Storm on Java 1.1 you're going to have problems.
11:26	wingy	reading answer 2: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/129674/how-would-functional-programming-proponents-answer-this-statement-in-code-comple seems perfect to have web apps designed like that
11:31	foxdonut	wingy: nice!
11:36	technomancy	acheng: there's a plugin that will tell you what needs updating, it just doesn't rewrite project.clj for you
11:37	RickInGA	I assme it is possible to have a project that works for both 1.7.1 and 2?
11:38	acheng	technomancy: is that lein outdated ?
11:41	qbert_	what is lein ?
11:41	qbert_	##lein
11:41	acheng	lein saves your hair
11:41	RickInGA	qbert_ lein = leiningen, the build tool/dependency manager for Clojure
11:43	qbert_	ok thanks! I'm still learning, any other tools I should know about ? What do ya'll use for an IDE ?
11:43	nDuff	qbert_: emacs, mostly
11:43	S11001001	qbert_: emacs
11:43	qbert_	nDuff, got it! :)
11:44	nDuff	qbert_: ...be sure to get set up with paredit-mode, clojure-mode and SLIME.
11:44	duck1123	there's pretty good support for most of the IDE's, but emacs is used most
11:44	scriptor	a couple use vimclojure
11:44	tbaldridge	yeah...take it from me...I held off from learing emacs for about 2 years...now I think "emacs...where have you been all my life!"
11:45	RickInGA	qbert_: lein is the most important tool, some of the getting started documentation says to dowload the clojure jar file manually, don't. Install lein, it installs clojure for you.
11:45	tbaldridge	for emacs modes, personally I love this one: https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
11:45	tbaldridge	notice: the fuzzy filter doesn't actually happen in emacs (thankfully
11:45	ro_st	hey so does anyone know if RHickey is going to put the clojure/west and euroclojure vids into the official clojure podcast?
11:46	RickInGA	tbaldridge: Once I learned to live with out menus, I fell in love with that setup
11:46	qbert_	tbaldridge, oh nice, I just have clojure-mode, that looks way better
11:46	tbaldridge	and I love the fact that it puts in a greek lambda whenever I type (fn). It's the small things that make that mode awesome
11:47	S11001001	tbaldridge: you know you can make your own unicodings. I use like 15 for scala hacking
11:48	tbaldridge	yeah...I just haven't figured that out yet. I'm doing good remembering all the shortcuts I need after only two weeks of using emacs.
11:49	tbaldridge	I have to admit though I heard people ranting about how awesome paredit was. Now that I've started using it (and know the shortcuts), yeah, that's just pure awesomeness
11:49	ro_st	emacs-live rocks
11:49	duck1123	C-h m will show the bindings for the current mode. Helpfull when messing with a new package
11:49	ro_st	tbaldridge: find and print the cheatsheet. i have mine stuck on the wall next to me
11:49	ro_st	for paredit
11:49	RickInGA	duck1123: awesome, thanks!
11:50	TimMc	tbaldridge: The only thing I don't like about greekifying (fn) is that it screws with column counts.
11:50	duck1123	For as many options and bindings that emacs has hidden all over, it tries hard to make them discoverable for you
11:50	duck1123	TimMc: and it looks horrible over putty. (I blame putty for that)
11:51	S11001001	duck1123: need to change putty terminal encoding
11:51	tbaldridge	duck1121: or just blame windows...everyone else does
11:51	wingy	for those who read Programming Clojure .. you recall how many days it took you to read it through? it's on 630 pages
11:51	wingy	ro_st: and thanks for the suggestion its an excellent beginner book
11:51	ro_st	wingy: about a week. i skimmed some stuff, like the sections on numerical stuff
11:51	uvtc	It's not reading that takes time, it's working through the stuff.
11:52	arrdem	wingy: two days... I was already familiar with Lisps
11:52	wingy	uvtc: yeah thats what i mean
11:52	ro_st	my pleasure. it's a great book
11:52	nDuff	wingy: It really _isn't_ the size -- I was rereading Joy of Clojure for months before everything clicked.
11:52	ro_st	gotta run!
11:53	wingy	i think i can make 50 pages per day .. that would be 11 days more for the entire book .. my goal initially was 2 days :)
11:53	uvtc	But it also takes time for things to sink in, IMO.
11:53	wingy	yeah i always reflect and play with the repl
11:54	nDuff	Exactly -- if it only takes one pass through the book to fully grok its contents, you're doing remarkably well.
11:55	wingy	nDuff: i hate to leave things behind .. since i know i always have to go back to get it later
11:55	nDuff	wingy: I usually find that multiple passes means that the second time you read something there's more context to understand it with, and thus more value to be gained, even if it seemed to make sense the first time.
11:56	arrdem	can I get some help with a macro? it's java-parser test here... https://github.com/rdmckenzie/Doubletake/blob/lang-java/test/doubletake/lang/test/java.clj
11:57	qbert_	oh. my. god. Overtone! Holy jesus!
11:57	arrdem	the desired behavior is that it will define a test with an otherwise unbound name symbol passed as an argument, but instead it just re-defs the name "test-name"
11:58	wingy	nDuff: always for me as well .. good to read many different books though since time is a constraint
11:58	wingy	you get things explained from another perspective with other words and also they cover something else the previous ones didnt
11:58	RickInGA	qbert_: hehe
11:58	nDuff	nod.
11:58	wingy	and books come out all the time for new versions .. kinda give you an excuse for reading new books on the same topic :)
11:59	wingy	sometimes i could pause the time and just read books for a year
11:59	wingy	that would give me a lot of knowledge :)
11:59	wingy	sometimes i wished..
12:00	TimMc	duck1123: Try KiTTY.
12:00	nDuff	qbert_: Just now getting familiar with Overtone? The presentation at last year's conj was great.
12:00	RickInGA	wingy: I have kind of gotten in a trap where the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.
12:01	wingy	RickInGA: its reality
12:01	duck1123	TimMc: I just try to avoid windows.
12:01	wingy	and its good to embrace it .. once we start thinking we have all the answers we stop looking .. and won't get smarter
12:06	wingy	atm i have to jump between repl and doc for every lookup, hope Light Table will be released soon so I can have the function's description there just by clicking on it
12:08	cgag	well if you already have the function name you can do (doc fn) or (source fn)
12:10	wingy	cgag: using Light Table .. feels its giving a better transparency in how the code flows .. and have to use the online doc for they are showing examples
12:10	qbert_	nDuff, is it online anywhere ? I've haven't been this excited in a long long time
12:10	wingy	didn't know about source .. seems much better than doc
12:11	qbert_	I don't see how I can get any work done now, going home to read my clojure books, biab
12:13	TimMc	wingy: There's also some ClojureDocs lib you can use from the REPL.
12:16	antares_	JulioBarros: I pushed monger 1.1.0-SNAPSHOT with Clojure reader extensions, let me know how that goes
12:28	dnolen	hmm when protocols are only 1-3 methods, delegation is really pretty simple ...
12:47	stain	anyone of you doing RDF or Linked Data with Clojure?
12:47	gtrak	yea
12:50	stain	gtrak: what libraries do you use, just straight to the bone to jena/sesame or a sparql endpoint, or have you got something nice on github for me? :)
12:50	stain	https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure-rdf is 3 years old ..
12:51	stain	I've started on a interface to owl-api, but it is very low-level and not very good for "I just want to pump out 6 lines of Turtle"
12:52	stain	you use CRG?
12:52	gtrak	I work with the guy that wrote it
12:52	gtrak	I haven't yet had a chance to take a deep look though
12:54	gtrak	stain: we have libs that wrap jena, and libs to manipulate graphs more natively, I think that's the purpose of CRG. I also thought I saw something similar come out recently from someone else
12:55	stain	seems nice, but lack of import AND export is a bit of a killer.. ;)
12:55	stain	OK.. this jena lib is non-opensource?
12:55	gtrak	yea, I was looking at what it would take to do a turtle parser as a hobby project :-)
12:55	gtrak	stain: ours isn't open, I think clj-plaza might help though?
12:56	stain	well, as long as you take Turtle and not N3 it should not be too bad
12:56	gtrak	trying to remember what the other thing was
12:58	stain	gtrak: thanks, that does support Turtle, but not sure if it is very Clojurish, with stuff like (alter-root-rdf-ns "http://www.example.org/")
12:58	gtrak	stain: https://github.com/drlivingston/kr
12:58	stain	I'll give it a try.. hopefullý it's just a few bindings away
12:58	gtrak	I think that's what I saw a little while back
12:58	stain	talk about useless project names!
12:59	stain	gtrak: that one looks great, it uses sesame or jena
13:00	gtrak	yea.. I've looked a bit at the jena api, it's ... complicated
13:01	stain	yes, it is not one of my favourites..
13:01	gtrak	there's all these parallel hierarchies to plug in inference stuff
13:01	stain	I try to use Sesame if I can, but that is a bit more of a powerhog I feel
13:01	stain	kind of like postgresql vs mysql
13:01	gtrak	CRG is just a graph-manipulation and indexing thing, it needs a turtle parser
13:02	gtrak	CRG is basically MRG in clojure
13:02	gtrak	http://code.google.com/p/mrg/
13:02	stain	yeah, I think I'll try KR for now. Ideally CRG with a turtle export would be all I need.. in theory I could write a not-so-clever Turtle output myself.. but perhaps not for now (deadline is tomorrow)
13:03	gtrak	MRG actually uses ARP to parse stuff i think :-)
13:05	duck1123	If you're using clj-plaza, you might want to check out my fork. The official one is pretty old. (although mine isn't much better)
13:07	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: pong
13:07	stain	duck1123: yeah, I saw that
13:07	qubit[01]	so, to my dev envirnvoment, I want swank, slime, live emacs, anything else ?
13:07	stain	duck1123: so what's good about clj-plaza?
13:08	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: oh, I opened an issue for my question: https://github.com/nuclearsandwich/swarming/issues/1
13:08	duck1123	it makes it easy to work with rdf models. I haven't really tried many of the other libraries that are out now
13:08	duck1123	it suits my needs
13:09	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: to which I just replied. Sorry for the delay. My email is messed up by this Apple I'm using. :\
13:09	kaoD	is there any good way to step-debug Clojure code in Emacs?
13:10	kaoD	I'm so tired of prints/debug macros
13:10	nuclearsandwich	I forked swarming just before jumping on a plane and then a week later mosh was released and I stopped working on it til I had time to see if mosh would be easier than ssh.
13:11	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: gotcha
13:11	fenton	qubit[01]: I haven't been using live emacs, but I've got some notes on setting up dev environment here: https://github.com/ftravers/PublicDocumentation/blob/master/clojure-development-setup.md
13:11	xumingmingv	kaoD, try CDT? (myself have not tried it though..)
13:11	qubit[01]	fenton, perfect thank you
13:11	stain	duck1123: I'll have a look.. your fork is not in clojars?
13:12	fenton	kaoD: I've got some notes about setting up CDT (Clojure Debugging Toolkit?) here too: https://github.com/ftravers/PublicDocumentation/blob/master/clojure-development-setup.md, but i've found it a bit weird...
13:12	kaoD	xumingmingv, not sure what CDT is, let me Google that
13:12	kaoD	oh, thanks fenton
13:13	stain	duck1123: oh, found it, net.kronkltd/plaza
13:13	stain	duck vs kronk confused me ;)
13:13	fenton	kaoD: just look for the debugging section at the bottom...it's using CDT.
13:14	kaoD	oh, that looks promising
13:14	xumingmingv	For debugging, I have a dream...to have something like the debugging feature in Eclipse for java, dont know it is not easy to implement? or just no one implement it？
13:15	technomancy	xumingmingv: it's not common because you have to be in a really nasty situation to actually need stepping
13:16	technomancy	for well-factored code the repl and occasional break-repl is enough
13:16	fenton	xumingmingv: functional programming, from what i understand so far as a newbie, is built up bit by bit, and shouldn't catch you by surprise like happens in java
13:16	fenton	with global data...
13:17	technomancy	the only time I used CDT was to track down what turned out to be a bug in Clojure itself
13:18	TimMc	Still need it from time to time.
13:18	fenton	its a mind set change for newbies to clojure coming from java...we are soooo used to a debugger, and can't understand how to live without it...
13:18	gtrak	technomancy: what is this break-repl you speak of?
13:18	TimMc	Well, desire it.
13:19	technomancy	gtrak: (swank.core/break)
13:19	kaoD	fenton, IMHO, a debugger is an awesome tool
13:20	kaoD	it can save lots of typing when trying to debug code
13:20	technomancy	gtrak: http://hugoduncan.org/post/2010/swank_clojure_gets_a_break_with_the_local_environment.xhtml
13:20	gtrak	ah
13:21	qubit[01]	hmm, cant find out where to get swank
13:21	gtrak	qubit[01]: try the lein plugin
13:23	qubit[01]	gtrak, ok, I have this in my ~/.lien/profiles , [lein-swank "1.4.4"]
13:23	qubit[01]	Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Could not start swank server: /bin/bash
13:24	qubit[01]	where do I find swank itself ?
13:25	gtrak	there's clojure-jack-in on the emacs side, and lein swank if you want to start the swank server from cmd-line
13:25	gtrak	clojure-jack-in actually runs lein swank I believe
13:25	gtrak	if you start it yourself, you can connect with M-x slime-connect
13:25	kaoD	gtrak, yes, it does
13:25	nDuff	...also, you can use clojure-swank and start the server yourself if your environment is too involved to be launchable via lein
13:26	duck1123	The plus side of launching swank from within your environment is all your nses are already required/loaded
13:27	gtrak	duck1123: hmm? I never a difference like that, what do you mean?
13:28	kaoD	duck1123, I am not sure what you mean either
13:28	gtrak	never noticed*
13:28	kaoD	M-x calls lein swank, so...
13:28	wingy	same thing different styles I supposed: https://gist.github.com/3005550 which one is more appropriate?
13:28	wingy	or simpler in the long run
13:29	duck1123	If I just to lein swank, I need to require a namespace before I can C-c C-k to it. When I load swank from my main, all the nses are already loaded by my app, so I can jump right to the one I want
13:29	duck1123	C-c M-p
13:29	gtrak	wingy: second is clearer to me
13:29	gtrak	sorry, the first
13:29	qubit[01]	lein swank , is not a task ?
13:30	qubit[01]	using the 2.x preview found here https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/
13:30	gtrak	lein swank starts the server
13:30	fenton	I recommend just running M-x clojure-jack-in from emacs...its starts swank for you... you only need to install clojure-mode and off you go...
13:31	devn	clj-time/jodatime question: I have a date like: "Jun 26 17:21:05" -- I tried to create a custom formatter to parse it, but I was unsuccessful: (def custom-formatter (tf/formatter "M ee HH:mm:ss"))
13:31	fenton	here is my workflow documented: https://github.com/ftravers/PublicDocumentation/blob/master/clojure.md#basic-workflow
13:31	qubit[01]	if I do lein swank, I get the error, swank is not a task, If I do clojure-jack-in , I get Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Could not start swank server: jack-in is not a task. Use \"lein help\" to list all tasks.
13:32	nDuff	qubit[01]: what version of lein are you running?
13:32	fenton	have you specified lein-swank as a plugin in your project.clj file?
13:32	qubit[01]	this one https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/preview/bin/lein
13:32	nDuff	See the readme at https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/ discussing installing the lein-swank plugin
13:33	scriptor	anyone have any links handy to clojurescript codebases?
13:33	qubit[01]	fenton, doh, I had it in ~./lien, sec
13:33	scriptor	just to see some examples of how they're laid out
13:33	fenton	qubit[01]: have a look at my workflow doc...it's all there...
13:33	gtrak	qubit[01]: lein can download it automatically for you
13:35	qubit[01]	yeah, all of the problems were because I had misnamed it lein, it works!
13:35	qubit[01]	lien*
13:35	wingy	a lot of abbreviations in clojure
13:35	wingy	is that a good or bad things?
13:35	wingy	strs instead of strings
13:35	foxdonut	abbreviation is such a long word :)
13:36	fenton	lol
13:36	tbaldridge	wingy: I think long variable names are more needed in OOP when you have massive classes and you're trying to keep 20 members straight
13:36	wingy	yeah
13:36	tbaldridge	in clojure if you only have 3 inputs to your pure function, name them a and b instead of something longer
13:37	wingy	right
13:37	wingy	so abbrs are good
13:38	duck1123	also, with the way clojure indentation works, if your names are too long, it quickly pushes everything too far over and you have to resort to tricks to keep it from going to far.
13:38	TimMc	Short enough to be interesting, long enough to cover everything.
13:38	TimMc	Wait, that's essays, and also skirts. (Thank you, 8th grade English teacher.)
13:39	tbaldridge	for which one?
13:39	tmciver	TimMc: lol!
13:40	TimMc	tbaldridge: For that guideline.
13:49	muhoo	heh, having to touch some code in another language for the first time in months, i started a comment with ;;
13:49	gtrak	why another language?!?!?!
13:49	jodaro	don't do it!
13:49	muhoo	um, fixing bugs.
13:49	jodaro	fix them in clojure
13:49	kaoD	gtrak, I do Python at work :(
13:49	muhoo	i write it, i maintain it. them's the rules.
13:49	gtrak	:-(
13:50	kaoD	at least I get to use emacs
13:50	muhoo	i am finally now deciding to try to build a product, instead of looking for clojure contract gigs
13:50	muhoo	i've been lucky, but it seems everyone doing clojure is looking for full-timers
13:55	jodaro	i tried to get the contractor thing going here but was given a long explanation as to why we 'prefer' fte
13:56	jodaro	so now i get to do all the work myself
13:56	jodaro	he
13:56	jodaro	h
13:56	technomancy	going with clojure is a big risk from a hiring perspective; I can see why many wouldn't want to compound that risk with contractors
13:57	kaoD	okay, another question about coding style: https://gist.github.com/3005694
13:58	jodaro	true, though to get some extra helping hands when you already have some full timers on board, i think its a decent risk
13:59	technomancy	kaoD: I'd go with the shorter approach; I like to write with :require :as in mind
13:59	duck1123	require vs use/only is pretty much a matter of style choice for the particular code you're writting IMO
13:59	duck1123	nvm, misunderstood the question
14:00	kaoD	technomancy thanks, that's what I thought
14:00	technomancy	I wonder if we could get someone to create a setup.exe type installer for Leiningen on Windows
14:01	kaoD	technomancy, what do you mean exactly? I might volunteer
14:01	kaoD	I use Win from time to time
14:01	technomancy	kaoD: right now lein on windows involves either installing curl or manually tracking down jars and putting them in exactly the right place
14:02	technomancy	it's kind of lame; I guess wizard-style installers are more common on Windows
14:02	technomancy	since there isn't any system-level package management
14:02	kaoD	technomancy, sure? I don't remember doing that under Win
14:02	kaoD	IIRC, I just downloaded a batch file and ran it
14:02	kaoD	although that was Lein 1.7
14:03	technomancy	that only works if you have an HTTP client present
14:03	technomancy	maybe you have wget via cygwin or something?
14:03	kaoD	yep, I have native wget
14:03	gtrak	http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Features <-- it can download stuff
14:04	devn	jodaro: maybe you could approach that same question but more along the lines of "contractor who has the added benefit of training others"?
14:04	technomancy	gtrak: interesting; that's even packaged in apt
14:04	technomancy	would be nice if I could generate installers myself
14:05	gtrak	it came from winamp way back when, I believe
14:06	elliottw	hey, i'm just learning about multimethods, and is there any implementation of them allowing for a varied number of arguements? does that make sense?
14:07	kaoD	elliottw, that doesn't make sense
14:07	kaoD	Clojure has native overloading by arity
14:07	technomancy	elliottw: multimethod dispatch functions are just regular functions; nothing special about them
14:07	elliottw	so i mean, i want to have a list of tags associated with a piece of data, and depending on what those tags are, do a certain thing
14:08	kaoD	elliottw, tags?
14:08	elliottw	sorry. for example, i want to write a program that titlecases a sentence
14:09	elliottw	if a small word is in the sentence, then keep it lowercase
14:09	elliottw	if that small word is the first or last word capitalize it
14:09	kaoD	if I got what you mean, multimethods aren't meant for that
14:10	kaoD	just map over the collection
14:10	raek	but it is possible with multimethods, though
14:10	elliottw	the issue is that i want to easily add new "tags"
14:11	kaoD	I wouldn't classify the multimethod approach as easy
14:11	kaoD	just keep a map of tags
14:11	kaoD	and update it when needed
14:11	kaoD	much cleaner, much more functional
14:12	kaoD	you can even have functions instead of a map
14:12	kaoD	(and maps can work as functions too)
14:12	raek	it seems that in this case much of the logis is in finding out which tags apply
14:12	raek	*logic
14:12	elliottw	so right now there are some conditions, :first-word, :small-word, :camelcase, :email, :url
14:13	elliottw	and depending on how they interact, I want to run a different f
14:13	kaoD	you just need a function that encodes the logic
14:13	elliottw	so if i pass in :small-word and :first-word, then capitalize
14:13	raek	multimethods are useful when you have a fixed number of values to dispatch on (usually one)
14:13	elliottw	if i pass in just :small-word dont' capitalize
14:14	kaoD	elliottw, so what's wrong with cond?
14:14	elliottw	i'm using cond right now and it's getting huge
14:15	raek	I think a cond sounds most straight forward here too. you need to encode the priority of the rules somehow too
14:15	kaoD	elliottw, then craft a CoR pattern
14:15	kaoD	chain of responsibility
14:15	elliottw	? wow, that's new to me. sorry i'm just starting out on clojure
14:15	kaoD	don't worry
14:15	kaoD	but that's not Clojure's
14:15	kaoD	it's a general programming pattern
14:15	elliottw	i've never coded before
14:15	elliottw	googling now
14:15	kaoD	oh, I see
14:16	kaoD	in short: think of it like a chain of handlers
14:16	kaoD	the first handler (a function) takes some data and acts accordingly
14:16	kaoD	that includes possible passing it to the next handler in the chain
14:16	raek	you could have a list of predicate-action pairs (where an "action" is capitalize or lowercase)
14:17	raek	try each predicate in turn and when one of them returns truthy, invoke the action and stop
14:17	kaoD	raek, that's kind of what I mean
14:18	kaoD	although with CoR several rules can apply
14:18	kaoD	(and the event can be consumed too)
14:18	elliottw	interesting
14:19	kaoD	in fact, it's just a special case of what you mean, it's just not boolean (truthy=stop, falsey=keep trying)
14:19	kaoD	you can even forget about the CoR and just create little handlers and thread them
14:20	kaoD	(just like Ring handlers)
14:20	elliottw	oh
14:21	elliottw	isn't that what cond is? test the first condition, if fail, keep moving?
14:21	kaoD	cond is more like what raek means
14:21	kaoD	it's just a runtime cond
14:21	kaoD	you can add and remove predicates-actions as you wish
14:21	elliottw	so here is my code now. be gentle this is the first real program evar
14:21	elliottw	https://github.com/elliottw/titlecase/blob/master/src/noir_bootstrap/views/welcome.clj
14:22	kaoD	elliottw, may I ask: why did you choose Clojure to begin programming?
14:22	elliottw	lol
14:23	elliottw	it's seemed the most academically interesting
14:23	elliottw	i've written small scripts in perl, and was thinking of trying perl 6, but clojure seemed more different than every other language
14:23	elliottw	and it seems hard, which i like
14:24	kaoD	well, for a simple approach you could do raek's suggestion
14:25	kaoD	let me craft a little magic
14:25	elliottw	kaoD k
14:27	amalloy	elliottw: i'm not going to read enough to comment on your actual algorithm but, for example, in-list? could use some work. if i were writing it by hand, it'd look like (and (seq word-list) (or (= word (first word-list)) (in-list? word (rest word-list))))
14:27	amalloy	but in real life i'd just write it as (some #{word} word-list)
14:29	amalloy	and good on you for using join. your perl heritage, i guess; a lot of people wind up reimplementing that using lazy sequences
14:30	elliottw	sorry for my blatant ignorance. i started this project when i started chapter 1 of a clojure book, and so i built it using the tools of the first few chapters. now i'm realizing how i did everything wrong
14:31	elliottw	amalloy i didn't even know about #{whatev} when i wrote that f. guess that's what happens whens you don't read first
14:31	amalloy	that's how it goes
14:31	uvtc	Nothing wrong with doing everything wrong. :)
14:31	amalloy	hah, i like that phrasing
14:32	uvtc	(er, {small print} only applies in this particular instance. Offer expires upon expiration. No refunds or exchanges.)
14:32	elliottw	a friend challenged me to write a webapp in clojure in a month in my spare time. i learned a lot not knowing anything about anything before this
14:33	adu	I challenge you to write a webapp in clojure in a day, I did
14:34	cgag	as your first program?
14:34	adu	well, my first program was hello world
14:34	elliottw	adu it took half a day to sign up for prgmr.com, install ubuntu, jvm, clojure/lein, noir
14:35	amalloy	elliottw: i wonder...it seems like you might be the target audience for ibdknox's light-table demo
14:35	elliottw	i saw that and almost shat myself
14:35	elliottw	i'm messing around with the "playground" now
14:35	amalloy	sweet. you might also like 4clojure.com
14:36	elliottw	amalloy just saw this today, and am going to run through a bunch
14:38	elliottw	i just wish it had vim keybindings
14:38	cgag	i think it does / will
14:39	technomancy	that's your browser's job
14:39	amalloy	elliottw: you can disable the javascript and set your browser up to do it
14:39	amalloy	assuming you're talking about 4clojure and not light table - probably no good to disable js for light table
14:39	elliottw	yeah i was talking about light table
14:40	amalloy	well, ibdknox uses vim. but keybindings are probably not his priority
14:40	cgag	isn't it built on codemirror, i heard that already has an attempt at vim bindings
14:40	elliottw	amalloy i don't understand why he joined yc if he already got like 300k
14:41	amalloy	contacts are worth more than money in the startup world, i suspect
14:41	pandeiro	phantomjs takes how many days to compile?
14:41	uvtc	elliottw, are you happy with prgmr? Prices look good.
14:43	shawnlewis	what do I need to :require to make pprint available to a browser connected (clojurescript) repl?
14:44	elliottw	uvtc you get what you pay for. it's great if you just want root access and to be left alone. but i upgraded to a higher plan and it took the guy two weeks to actually give me more resources
14:46	uvtc	elliottw, thanks!
14:47	uvtc	elliottw, if your site wasn't under a lot of load, perhaps they looked at the logs and figured it wasn't too high priority? Hm.
14:47	elliottw	also pinboard uses prgmr for the site and if you read his blog, he seems to know what he's doing
14:48	elliottw	uvtc i ran out of space. i think just the os plus JVM took up my .5 or 1gb of disc space, so i couldn't do anything until i got the upgrad
14:48	elliottw	e
14:49	uvtc	elliottw,: Ah. Thanks. I've heard them recommended elsewhere. May finally make the leap of shared hosting and give them a try.
14:49	uvtc	s/of/out of/
14:50	elliottw	uvtc i was on one of those big box unlimited everything shared hosting plans, and i definitely like prgmr a lot more. root access just makes a lot of things simpler. but now i kind of wish i did this first project on heroku
14:50	cgag	linode is more expensive, but i've been happy with them
14:50	amalloy	yes, linode is pretty excellent if you don't mind the money
14:51	elliottw	linode is awesome, just hard for me to justify with personal projects.
14:51	uvtc	I'm using hurricane electric at the moment. The el-cheapo shared hosting plan I'm on is actually no longer even offered.
14:51	elliottw	their library of help files got me through a lot
14:51	y3di	how can I do local running for noir apps? I have lein and swank-clojure installed.
14:51	uvtc	But they've been good.
14:52	amalloy	uvtc: i have a linode that lives in HE's colo
14:52	uvtc	(el-cheapo meaning least expensive)
14:52	uvtc	amalloy, they seem quite professional, from my dealings with them.
14:52	elliottw	y3di i just followed these directions http://webnoir.org/#started
14:53	amalloy	uvtc: there was a really bad week or so around a year ago, when someone was DDoSing HE's fremont location
14:53	y3di	thanks elliottw, i'll take a look
15:01	amalloy	dnolen: reading through the little schemer, it seems to me like (conde ((some test) (result))) is equivalent to (conde (#s (some test) (result))), because they're both goals - is there something i'm misunderstanding?
15:02	dnolen	amalloy: yes a "line" is a conjunction. ST ^ R, vs. s# ^ ST ^ R
15:02	dnolen	s# will always succeed so those expressions are equivalent.
15:02	amalloy	okay, that's about what i figured out. just thinking of it as a conjunction rather than a test/result pair makes it more sensible-seeming
15:02	clojurebot	but it gets you the balanced pairs, which is the important part IME
15:03	amalloy	cool, that's perfect. conde is like a built-in disjunction of conjunctions, which is lovely
15:03	elliottw	where did kaoD go?
15:03	dnolen	amalloy: yes
15:12	uvtc	What is the "test" in an if-let? Is if-let simply checking the truthiness of the local you bind a value to?
15:13	uvtc	In the docs for if-let, what does "bindings => binding-form test" mean?
15:17	amalloy	uvtc: well, it's checking the truthiness of the value before binding it to a local
15:19	uvtc	amalloy, thanks.
15:20	uvtc	amalloy, oh, right. Not sure what else I was expecting it to do. :)
15:21	uvtc	Saves you from doing (if ... (let [...] ...)).
15:22	uvtc	I guess I was execting the docs to say: `bindings => [local test-expr]`.
15:24	y3di	clojure-jack-in doesn't seem to work in lein noir projects, however works find in generic lein projects
15:24	y3di	has anyone else had this issue/know how to fix it?
15:24	xeqi	uvtc: binding-form implies you can destructure it
15:26	uvtc	Ah. Ok, thanks, xeqi.
15:27	uvtc	But the `test` is performing double-duty. Not only is it providing values (or not) for the binding-form, it's also determining whether the body of the if-let gets evaluated.
15:29	tbaldridge	uvtc: that's correct
15:30	uvtc	tbaldridge, thanks.
15:31	tbaldridge	I'm not sure how comfortable you are with reading macros, but reading the source helped me clear this up a bit : http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/if-let#source
15:32	uvtc	tbaldridge: Have not yet made it to that chapter. :) But once I do, I'll take a look. Thanks for the link.
15:38	amalloy	dnolen: btw, since github took away the "message this user" feature, the note in the core.logic readme suggesting to message you on github doesn't quite make sense
15:39	kaoD	elliottw, https://gist.github.com/3006297 <- this is raek's idea (or what I understood of it)
15:41	dnolen	amalloy: oh right, thanks for the heads up.
15:43	kaoD	elliottw, and here used with map https://gist.github.com/3006297
15:44	kaoD	sry, this -> https://gist.github.com/3006297
15:44	kaoD	ah, it's always the last revision, nervemind
15:55	uvtc	I've noticed that reduce is sometimes used to populate a hash-map (when you're computing the keys/values from a coll). I'd've thought that a loop might be used for that. Here's an example of both: https://gist.github.com/3006397 . Is there a more common way to populate a hash-map using values computed from a coll?
15:58	uvtc	Hm. zipmap maybe.
16:00	wingy	isn't declarative programming languages like clojure using imperative coding underneath?
16:00	wingy	i imagine that someone has to tell the computer what to do
16:01	ivan	Clojure is mostly not declarative
16:01	technomancy	wingy: of course; computers actually run opcodes in machine language
16:01	ohpauleez	uvtc: Typically you use reduce to grow a collection, and zipmap, interleave, and partition (usually as a stepping function)
16:01	ohpauleez	to build or stitch together
16:02	technomancy	wingy: the whole point of having a compiler is so you don't have to think in terms of machine language
16:03	uvtc	ohpauleez, Ah. Yes. Thanks. Actually, it ocurred to me that maybe there's some way to use `hash-map` with `for`...
16:04	ohpauleez	uvtc: More commonly is to use higher-order functions than raw loops
16:04	uvtc	,(for [n (range 5)] [n (* n n)])
16:04	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 4] [3 9] [4 16])
16:05	ohpauleez	zipmap
16:05	cgag	,(into {} (for [n (range 5)] [n (* n n)]))
16:05	clojurebot	{0 0, 1 1, 2 4, 3 9, 4 16}
16:05	amalloy	uvtc: into/for
16:05	amalloy	(inc cgag)
16:05	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:05	ohpauleez	or that
16:05	uvtc	Oh, of course. Thanks!
16:05	ohpauleez	zip map is if you have two collections you want to lace together
16:06	ohpauleez	but what you probably want is a vector of just the values, no?
16:06	ohpauleez	since you're just using integer keys?
16:07	dnolen	wingy: it's also possible to embed a more declarative paradigm - that's the idea behind core.logic.
16:07	uvtc	ohpauleez, just experimenting with creating hash-maps at the moment. Thanks though.
16:07	ohpauleez	ahh, gotcha
16:10	wingy	ivan: could you elaborate?
16:10	clojurebot	Huh?
16:11	wingy	clojurebot: ?
16:11	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:12	wingy	or perhaps i won't even have the knowledge to understand any explanations yet :)
16:18	nizze	Hello. I'm learning clojure and I noticed that it's making my brain really tired. It seems that I have to spend more time thinking than writing...
16:21	ivan	wingy: it's functional and imperative
16:22	Raynes	nizze: Most people feel that is a good thing.
16:22	ivan	wingy: core.logic or datalog would be declarative
16:25	nDuff	nizze: ...see also Rich Hickey's essay on hammock-driven development.
16:25	nDuff	s/essay/talk/
16:25	wingy	ivan: what is core.logic?
16:25	ivan	https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/
16:25	dnolen	wingy: I disagree with ivan - imperative -> declarative is a spectrum. FP tends to be more declarative then imperative OO. LP (logic programming) takes it further.
16:26	jtoy	what is wrong with this name: lein new 3iagents => Sorry, project names must be valid Clojure symbols.
16:26	cgag	can't start a symbol with a number
16:27	amalloy	dnolen: btw, what is the recommended "import style" for core.logic? 'use all of the things i'll need, and exclude clojure.core/== and other clashes? or require core.logic :as logic or something?
16:27	jtoy	oh, ic
16:30	wingy	dnolen: yeah clojure seems far more declarative than typical oop langs
16:31	jtoy	wingy: is that bad?
16:32	wingy	jtoy: no i feel declarative styles make you more productive and eliminates more bugs
16:33	jtoy	is it fine to use clojure for calling lots of command line stuff, is there anything i should know about this and/or any libraries to use?
16:33	jtoy	i will be calling rm/mv/lzop many times in my clojure code
16:34	nickmbailey	jtoy: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html
16:35	nickmbailey	the jvm itself can have a pretty big overhead for forking processes though
16:35	technomancy	jtoy: don't shell out for simple things like mv and rm
16:36	jtoy	nickmbailey: yeah, for mv/rm i don't need the shell, but i need it for lzop, which i will call many times (long live process with thousands of calls an hour)
16:37	jtoy	any libraries you guys recommend for turning my code into a deamon ?
16:37	KirinDave	technomancy: Hey, is it possible to tell lein to include arbitrary maven plugins?
16:38	KirinDave	technomancy: when generating the pom file
16:38	technomancy	KirinDave: there's a branch for that I think
16:38	technomancy	lemme see
16:38	technomancy	KirinDave: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/454
16:39	technomancy	pull req needs to be cleaned up and generalized, but I think the basic idea is sound
16:39	jodaro	jtoy: there is this: https://github.com/arohner/lein-daemon
16:39	KirinDave	I see.
16:39	KirinDave	I guess for now I'll shellhack the pom file.
16:39	KirinDave	I need this stuff out today.
16:39	jtoy	jodaro: just saw that, is that what people actually use?
16:39	KirinDave	And our existing deploy methodology is heavily integrated with scala-centric pom files.
16:40	KirinDave	Oh Jenkins, you are agony.
16:40	technomancy	KirinDave: add-hook on xml-tags might work too
16:40	technomancy	KirinDave: hopefully it'll be in the final 2.0.0 release
16:41	KirinDave	technomancy: Well let me toss in a +1 for that idea.
16:41	jodaro	jtoy: not sure. you might look at the apache commons stuff too
16:41	KirinDave	pom files are an ugly but necessary part of life.
16:41	jodaro	depends on what kind of daemony things you want i guess
16:41	KirinDave	Esp plugins like assembly.
16:41	technomancy	KirinDave: was thinking of doing a release today, but if you want to tackle it I could push it to tomorrow =)
16:42	KirinDave	technomancy: I have a lot more to do today than just this. Sorry.
16:42	technomancy	no worries
16:42	KirinDave	And one of my hounds was keeping me up all night sick. Bummer for me
16:42	technomancy	it'd probably be easy to port to a plugin once the implementation is there if you want it before 2.0.0 goes final
16:43	nickmbailey	jtoy: i would look for a native java lzo library before i went with the shell route
16:44	jtoy	nickmbailey: really? command line is that bloated/slow?
16:44	technomancy	java kind of ... pretends unix doesn't exist
16:44	technomancy	as much as it can get away with
16:45	nickmbailey	running a shell command requires forking the process, which can be slow for the jvm especially if you have a really large heap
16:45	technomancy	and there's a bug in some versions of the JVM where it temporarily requires 2x the heap size to fork
16:45	jodaro	if you have a c library you can wrap it with jna
16:46	technomancy	hiredman: are you guys still working around that?
16:47	hiredman	technomancy: yes
16:49	technomancy	=\
16:50	hiredman	of course we are still on 1.6
16:52	technomancy	if anyone's running lein from git, could you update and try it out?
16:52	technomancy	hoping to release the current contents of master as 2.0.0-preview7 within 24 hours and would like to get any potential issues caught first
16:54	cgag	when does 2.0.0 become the standard?
16:55	technomancy	cgag: once the clojars releases repository is populated enough to make it a feasible default
16:55	technomancy	the lein faq has details
16:56	antares_	technomancy: just tried with a few repos, works well
16:57	technomancy	yay
16:58	jtoy	in leiningen what is the diff between dependencies and dev-dependencies?
16:59	technomancy	dev-dependencies are an old thing that leiningen 1.x used to use
16:59	jtoy	I'm still on 1.x because the website says its still hasn't reached rc
17:00	uvtc	What is the purpose of naming a local the same as a var? That is, if you've got `(def x 3)`, then elsewhere, in some function, `(let [x x] ...)`?
17:00	technomancy	even on 1.7.x you should use :plugins over :dev-dependencies
17:00	technomancy	jtoy: but at this point it's safe to upgrade to 2.x; the only reason it's not finalized is a technicality
17:00	xeqi	.. unless you actually want a dev-dependency?
17:00	aperiodic	technomancy: seems ok from here
17:00	uvtc	The "Clojure Programming" book does this on p.147 (the defn maze example).
17:01	uvtc	Which is a doozie, I might add. :)
17:01	technomancy	xeqi: valid use cases are few and far between
17:01	cgag	uvtc: ha yeah it is
17:02	amalloy	welllll, the main reason is if you need to switch from dynamic binding to lexical binding, eg because you expect to use that value in a different dynamic scope but need its current value
17:02	duck11231	Didn't this same question come up last week? Is it using a macro anywhere?
17:03	jtoy	if i include a dependency that is on clojars and I get errors such as "1 required artifact is missing." is that something i need to fix, or is it a problem with the libraries on clojars?
17:03	borkdude	technomancy I will try to build and test it on windows xp also
17:03	technomancy	borkdude: you're a champ =)
17:03	jtoy	I'm trying to add [clj-aws-s3 "0.3.2"] , and it just errors out when i do lein deps
17:04	uvtc	amalloy, I don't see it using a dynamic variable ... Hm. I also don't see any macros in there.
17:04	technomancy	jtoy: looks like a bug in the library
17:04	technomancy	jtoy: jets3t is easy to use for publishing to s3
17:04	jtoy	hmm, i guess people aren't actually using these libraries, wtf
17:04	jtoy	that is not very encouraging
17:05	technomancy	there are abandoned broken libraries in every language and runtime
17:05	technomancy	hm; that one's from weavejester though; he's usually pretty good about that kind of thing
17:06	duck11231	I tried adding it as a plugin (cause that buffer was open) and it seems to lein deps for me
17:07	technomancy	jtoy: works for me
17:09	jtoy	technomancy: here is my project, http://pastebin.ca/2165124 is anything wrong with it? if i comment out clj-aws-s3 it works
17:11	technomancy	jtoy: hm; it could be a 1.x problem I guess?
17:11	technomancy	see if 2.x works maybe?
17:12	jtoy	technomancy: ok i will try that, is it fine to use lein1 and 2 together on the same system, i have a bunch of projects that use lein 1
17:12	technomancy	yeah, it's fine
17:12	duck11231	just rename one lein2 or lein1.7
17:14	borkdude	technomancy is it expected that leiningen downloads lein-newnew when first run (this happens on me in Windows XP)
17:15	jcrossley3	cemerick: thx for the rt :)
17:15	uvtc	amalloy, thanks for the answer earlier, btw.
17:15	jtoy	technomancy: running the new lein with "lein repl", I just get a bunch of permission denied errors
17:15	technomancy	borkdude: yeah, that's in order to allow it to be updated independently of lein
17:16	cemerick	jcrossley3: Sure thing. Looks like good stuff, per usual. :-)
17:16	jcrossley3	:)
17:16	borkdude	technomancy ok.. lein prints its tasks now in preview7 in XP, great ;-)
17:16	technomancy	borkdude: progress!
17:16	technomancy	jtoy: filesystem permissions or remote permissions?
17:17	jtoy	technomancy: Could not transfer metadata clojure-twitter:clojure-twitter:1.2.6-SNAPSHOT/maven-metadata.xml from/to central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2): Permission denied
17:17	jtoy	technomancy: viewing that link in http doesn't work for me, it could be my network then
17:17	technomancy	that's weird but shouldn't be fatal
17:18	technomancy	I mean it's not related to the aws dependency
17:18	jtoy	hmm, I hope my system is not borked
17:19	cemerick	jcrossley3: would it be absurd to use immutant on heroku or something like elastic beanstalk?
17:20	cemerick	I've never used jboss, so perhaps that's a dumb question. :-P
17:21	jcrossley3	cemerick: we've discussed it with heroku engineers (don't remember who, they gave a talk at arug here) for torquebox
17:21	hiredman	my experience with bits of jboss lead me to believe it's discovery (based on jgroups) is a. pretty brittle b. hard to swap out
17:21	jcrossley3	cemerick: it comes down to the number of ports it wants to open iirc
17:21	borkdude	technomancy congrats, works for me on OSX and XP
17:21	technomancy	borkdude: thanks!
17:22	tcrawley	cemerick: you can, however, use immutant on openshift now with a little hacking. I don't know what the performance is like though
17:22	jcrossley3	cemerick: we'd love to have both torquebox and immutant (and jboss for that matter) running on heroku, but we're kinda focusing on openshift right now.
17:22	borkdude	technomancy let's try now with throwing .m2 away...
17:22	hiredman	jcrossley3: how do you think the jgroups discovery would work on a network where multicast isn't allowed and processes might get killed and moved (ec2 or heroku)
17:22	cemerick	jcrossley3: Right. Presumably not a problem on beanstalk, then.
17:23	hiredman	(the jgroups thing is sort of a peeve of mine)
17:23	cemerick	hiredman: surely it doesn't require multicast?
17:23	tcrawley	jcrossley3: is s3_ping still an option?
17:23	jcrossley3	hiredman: you're not alone.
17:23	jcrossley3	tcrawley: yes
17:24	technomancy	cemerick: the lack of a TCP router is probably going to kill jgroups
17:24	hiredman	cemerick: it doesn't, but I've had less then stellar experiences using anything other than static file based discovery on ec2
17:24	hiredman	which rules out more dynamic environments
17:24	cemerick	tcrawley: noted
17:25	tcrawley	cemerick: https://github.com/projectodd/polyglot-openshift-example
17:25	borkdude	technomancy phew, yup, also works ;)
17:25	cemerick	I can't say I've bothered with openshift at all, since it seems mostly vapor-esque.
17:26	tcrawley	cemerick: it's come a long way in a short time, but I haven't used it other than trying out immutant & torquebox on it with simple apps
17:27	jcrossley3	cemerick: i don't think vapor-esque is fair now. (it was last year)
17:27	cemerick	Sure. The premise is promising.
17:27	borkdude	now waiting for instarepl/leiningen integration :P
17:30	cemerick	jcrossley3: As accurate as the 1-minute glance can afford, sorry. :-\| I generally don't start paying attention until real for-pay plans are specified, etc.
17:33	jcrossley3	hiredman: the auto-scaling issue (killed/moved processes) is something we're trying to workout on openshift. i have little clue atm.
17:33	jcrossley3	cemerick: fair
17:34	jcrossley3	cemerick: you sound kinda enterprisey, though. ;)
17:34	hiredman	jcrossley3: I am sort of surprised no one offers zookeeper as a service
17:35	Raynes	jcrossley3: He totally is.
17:35	Raynes	cemerick: They seem pretty solid.
17:35	Raynes	cemerick: I experimented with it a while back. They plan to have pay plans pretty soon afaik.
17:36	hiredman	paxos as a service
17:37	borkdude	Fisher Price, Enterprise and everything in between
17:37	hiredman	as far as I can tell everyone manages their own zookeeper clusters
17:37	ivan	what would the service do? don't the nodes do all the work?
17:38	cemerick	jcrossley3: My sarcasm detector is flummoxed. :-D
17:38	jcrossley3	borkdude: i used to refer to ms-windows as a "fisher price os" until my kid pointed out i was insulting fisher price. ;)
17:38	talios	Mornin
17:38	borkdude	jcrossley3 lol
17:38	brehaut	morning talios
17:38	jcrossley3	cemerick: ha!
17:39	borkdude	hello talios
17:41	talios	Ooo I'm liking the new IDEA 12 splashscreen - https://skitch.com/talios/ed132/leda
17:41	talios	'lo borkdude
17:48	borkdude	technomancy et al, good luck with preview7 - gtg
17:48	technomancy	thanks =)
18:04	wingy	FP seems to be solving the problems with simplicity while OOP is doing the same but adding unnecessary complexity, which could lead to bugs
18:12	TimMc	wingy: Don't worry, there's still plenty of complexity left over.
18:14	jtoy	I am making a beanstalkd worker on clojure, is this the basic construct ok to use: (while true (get_item_off_queue)) or is there a better way I should be doing it?
18:21	technomancy	jtoy: (doseq [item (queue)] (work-on item)) is better
18:21	technomancy	assuming queue is a function that returns an infinite seq
18:25	jtoy	technomancy: its not exactly like that, is it ok to have non functional methodsin clojure? meaning every time I call process_job_from_queue once, it processes a single job off the queue/not indepotent
18:26	jjttjj	does anyone know of any example apps using korma? or any medium sized noir apps in general? (besides noir-blog/messageboard)
18:26	technomancy	jtoy: that will work; you asked if there was a better way
18:27	jtoy	technomancy: ok, I will try to learn how to use sequences, I still don't know how to use them
18:58	jtoy	how do I break out of a doseq ?
18:58	brehaut	jtoy: :while or :when
18:59	brehaut	wait no
18:59	brehaut	tha
18:59	brehaut	ts not what you are asking
18:59	Raynes	You don't 'break' out of a doseq.
19:00	jtoy	this is want I want to do exactly, I want to process (range 1 33) , those numbers are few into something else, eventually one of those numbers will not return data, and at that time I want to stop going through the rest of those numbers
19:00	jtoy	so something like (doseq [ page (range 1 33)) (process_until_page_returns_nil page) )
19:02	AimHere	Wouldn't you want to use something like 'take-while' or some other sequence function, and discard the result? Or perhaps just roll your own loop .. recur construct
19:03	brehaut	(dorun (take-while identity (map process_page (range 1 33))))
19:03	brehaut	s/dorun/doall/
19:03	jtoy	I'm new to clojure still, so not sure what the "right way" is
19:03	brehaut	jtoy: lazy sequences are not just about lists of things; they allow you to factor out control flow of loops into composable chunks
19:04	jtoy	brehaut: how exactly do sequences allow you to factor out control flow ?
19:05	brehaut	jtoy: you write functions that perform the control flow operation that take a seq and return a seq
19:05	brehaut	for example, take-while factors out the 'loop until something happens and then break'
19:06	jtoy	ok, i think i see, coll
19:06	jtoy	cool
19:06	wingy	is scaling vertically (1 hardware server with as many cores/memory as you need) more optimal than scaling horizontally (more hardware servers)
19:06	brehaut	wingy: they are orthoganal concerns.
19:07	wingy	brehaut: which means?
19:07	brehaut	wingy: they arent really related
19:07	wingy	i wonder since clojure seems to be designed for scaling vertically, but not horizontally
19:07	brehaut	clojure just doesnt pretend that scaling horizontally is free
19:07	wingy	while erlang is doing the latter?
19:09	brehaut	erlang is kinda tricky to put into a box that way
19:10	brehaut	its design decisions are more about reliablity than 'scaling' per se
19:10	brehaut	it makes some pretty hard trade offs to be reliable in the face of just about anything
19:15	wingy	brehaut: but is clj designed to scale horizontally?
19:15	brehaut	wingy: i dont think thats a real question
19:15	wingy	https://gist.github.com/3007504 this looks pretty mad .. why would anyone use a vector as a key
19:15	brehaut	languages dont scale, programs do
19:16	brehaut	why would you not use a vector as a key?
19:16	wingy	why would i?
19:16	wingy	is there any benefit doing that?
19:16	brehaut	because its a value, and if its the appropriate key then not using it would be daft
19:17	wingy	hmm
19:17	wingy	thats pretty correct
19:17	brehaut	yes it is
19:17	wingy	just not used to it from other langs
19:17	wingy	cool in a way that anything can be used as a key
19:17	wingy	man i love clj
19:17	wingy	love the philosophy
19:18	brehaut	thats… not true
19:18	Raynes	$dict pedant
19:18	lazybot	Raynes: noun: One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
19:18	wingy	why isn't it true?
19:18	brehaut	im pretty sure java, C#, python (for instance), all let you do the use a vector equivalent as a key in a mapping
19:18	wingy	Raynes: you mean me?
19:18	Raynes	No.
19:19	amalloy	brehaut: he means not used to it from bad langs like php
19:19	amalloy	and js
19:19	amalloy	and perl?
19:19	wingy	php, ruby, js
19:19	nDuff	brehaut: not a list, in Python, only a tuple.
19:20	amalloy	wingy: wrong about ruby
19:20	nDuff	brehaut: only immutible types can be used as keys there -- the world is at least _that_ sane.
19:20	wingy	amalloy: just stayed there for a couple of months .. must have missed it
19:20	amalloy	{[1] => :x}[[1]] ## returns :x
19:20	brehaut	js is getting proper maps in a future release that accept non-strings as keys too
19:21	brehaut	nDuff: ah yeah my bad. the vectors as listy and tuply things throws a wee spanner in that analogy
19:30	brehaut	wingy: re: vertical scalability, there isn't really a language/runtime/platform that cant support more work by adding more resources to a given machine.
19:35	wingy	brehaut: from what i have understood many langs cant take advantage of multi core
19:35	brehaut	wingy: most languages make multithreaded code difficult yes, but thats not the same thing
19:38	shawnlewis	can anyone recommend an open-source clojurescript web-app worth reading through (beyond twitterbuzz)?
19:41	jayunit100	idiomatic way to pretty print json to a string ?
19:41	gfredericks	find a json lib that can pretty print?
19:41	gfredericks	and use with-out-str if necessary
19:42	jayunit100	with-out-str ?
19:42	gfredericks	,(with-out-str (println "foo"))
19:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "accessDeclaredMembers")>
19:42	gfredericks	&(with-out-str (println "foo"))
19:42	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
19:42	gfredericks	wat
19:42	jayunit100	wow
19:42	gfredericks	jayunit100: it just redirects all printings to a string
19:43	jayunit100	oh wow you can wrap println thats a badass macro
19:43	gfredericks	jayunit100: it works in all the functions you call too, not just the lexical context
19:43	jayunit100	as in ?
19:44	gfredericks	(defn print-stuff [] (print "Stuff")) (with-out-str (print-stuff))
19:45	jayunit100	@gfredericks hmmm. i wonder how it does that. laziness?
19:45	wingy	is the choice between aleph and noir for a web server?
19:45	jayunit100	oh ok i see, yeah, since with-out-str is seen first, it sets the macro then.
19:45	gfredericks	jayunit100: it's dynamically binding out
19:46	gfredericks	(print "Stuff") prints to out, so you just change the value of out before calling print-stuff
19:46	jayunit100	thanks ! this is cool s**t
19:46	jayunit100	ok…. so i have this lib I'm using : [org.clojure/data.json "0.1.2"]
19:46	gfredericks	cool soot
19:47	jayunit100	is there a way at the repl to browse all of its available functions/ns ?
19:47	gfredericks	yeah; it's not _too_ user-friendly
19:47	brehaut	wingy: noir isnt a web server.
19:47	gfredericks	but (ns-publics foo.bar) will give you the public vars for a ns
19:47	brehaut	wingy: its built on ring which is server agnostic
19:47	gfredericks	you can use clojure.repl/doc to see their documentations
19:48	brehaut	wingy: you can use jetty, anything that supports servlets, mongrel2, or pretty much anything that you either find or write an adapter for
19:49	brehaut	wingy: i might be wrong, but i dont think aleph is a web server either. the aleph/lamina stack is build ontop of netty perhaps?
19:49	gfredericks	brehaut: you can run an http server with aleph
19:49	technomancy	brehaut: wasn't there, like, some article about that?
19:49	brehaut	gfredericks: does it implement http itself though?
19:49	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:49	brehaut	technomancy: about aleph?
19:50	jayunit100	(ns-publics 'org.clojure) doesn't work :(
19:50	gfredericks	brehaut: well if you're going to be that pedantic I doubt you're helping the OP
19:50	technomancy	brehaut: I mean about the different web libraries for clojure
19:50	brehaut	gfredericks: i bet you lie to your kids about santa too
19:50	technomancy	and how they are related
19:50	gfredericks	jayunit100: org.clojure isn't a namespace; try (ns-publics 'clojure.data.json)
19:50	brehaut	technomancy: aha, i am apparently slow
19:51	wingy	so its between aleph which is using netty and noir/jetty(/netty?)
19:51	brehaut	wingy: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
19:51	gfredericks	wingy: compojure below noir
19:51	jayunit100	hmm that failed to … (ns-publics 'clojure.data.json)
19:51	gfredericks	jayunit100: have you required it yet?
19:52	jayunit100	yeah its a deps issue, my bad. odd though.
19:52	gfredericks	brehaut: what is this "santa"? some kiwi thing?
19:53	brehaut	gfredericks: i dunno, do you have cocacola in the US?
19:53	gfredericks	what kind of fruit is that?
19:55	jayunit100	gfredericks: how did you "know" that [org.clojure/data.json "0.1.2"] ----> clojure.data.json
19:55	brehaut	gfredericks: in that case, santa is a big fat bearded guy who frequently wears winter weather clothes to the beach. go figure
19:55	jayunit100	i never would have been able to guess that. I would have tried org.clojure.data.json OR org.clojure/data.json or all other sorts of incantations. :)
19:56	gfredericks	jayunit100: only because I'm familiar with the lib, or at least the naming conventions in the clojure core libs; generally you have to check the docs, or crack open the jar if you're desperate
19:56	jayunit100	ah ok. so there is no 1-1 mapping between lib name and ns.
19:56	jayunit100	makes sense
19:56	gfredericks	nope; there are various conventions but just as in java/maven, nothing is enforced/required
19:57	gfredericks	brehaut: you people have the strangest traditions
19:57	wingy	i think people would die for clojure the lang
19:58	wingy	but no one for js
19:58	dnolen	wingy: you haven't been to any JS conferences I see :)
19:58	wingy	how can they die for an ugly mf?
19:59	wingy	its hell ugly!! its like .. i wanna beat it
19:59	gfredericks	nobody thinks that way about lisp
19:59	wingy	gfredericks: irony?
19:59	gfredericks	a smidge
20:00	dnolen	wingy: I have no hatred of JS, but I find the direction the JS community at large seesm to be going ... strange.
20:00	wingy	dnolen: strange how?
20:00	gfredericks	dnolen: JS everywhere? or something else?
20:02	technomancy	like how they're forgetting the one advantage it have over other languages is that it's the most widely deployed runtime?
20:02	technomancy	*has
20:02	gfredericks	technomancy: they are forgetting that?
20:02	SrPx	Trying to make a "bend" macro, that will transform (foo <a A> <b B>) into (foo a A) (foo b B), but is this even possible?
20:03	technomancy	gfredericks: how else do you explain node?
20:03	gfredericks	SrPx: looks likely
20:03	SrPx	its hard : S
20:03	gfredericks	technomancy: so your corollary is that JS has no other advantage and therefore they shouldn't seek to deploy it any further?
20:04	gfredericks	otherwise I don't follow
20:04	gfredericks	SrPx: is it always pairs? always two of them?
20:05	gfredericks	if you didn't have the angle brackets there it wouldn't even require a macro
20:06	gfredericks	aw man cljs doesn't have future?
20:06	gfredericks	I need to (js/setTimeout)?
20:07	SrPx	gfredericks: no, it's always a list
20:07	dnolen	gfredericks: JS is the probably ultimate Computer Science pop phenomenon.
20:07	SrPx	gfredericks: it could be a varaible pointing to a list
20:07	SrPx	gfredericks: always the same size though
20:07	nDuff	dnolen: ultimate? That seems awfully optimistic.
20:07	amalloy	dnolen: loving core.logic. still a lot to learn, but with a lot of manual labor i got run* to spit out a correct answer to a puzzle
20:07	dnolen	amalloy: wow! great!
20:07	SrPx	wait who said cljs doesn't have a future?
20:08	technomancy	I read a blog post a while back about how someone was ditching Rails for Node "because the party's better over there"
20:08	gfredericks	SrPx: do you mean the angle brackets to literally be in the code, or were you signifying something else?
20:08	dnolen	nDuff: optimistic - I didn't mean that as flattery :)
20:08	metellus	SrPx: map basically does what you want, depending on the angle brackets
20:08	gfredericks	SrPx: ha
20:08	metellus	,(map + [1 2] [6 10])
20:08	SrPx	gfredericks: they could be, not necessary, could be somethign like (bend (node [a b]) (node [c d])) or anything that works
20:08	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "accessDeclaredMembers")>
20:09	metellus	&(map + [1 2] [6 10])
20:09	lazybot	⇒ (7 12)
20:09	SrPx	õo
20:09	SrPx	whaa..
20:09	gfredericks	SrPx: I think I'd need a list of examples or something
20:09	SrPx	gfredericks: okay
20:10	gfredericks	SrPx: are you sure you need a macro?
20:10	SrPx	not sure anymore
20:10	jayunit100	hmm this is an odd one : No matching field found: replaceAll for class java.lang.String
20:10	SrPx	trying to understand what metellus did o.o
20:10	nDuff	dnolen: ...I expect there to be more and even worse pop phenomena in the future, but maybe that's my inner pessimist speaking. :)
20:10	SrPx	,(map print [a b] [c d])
20:10	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "accessDeclaredMembers")>
20:10	gfredericks	jayunit100: check the args you're giving it
20:10	SrPx	sad that I don't know many functions yet
20:10	SrPx	so its hard to play w/ the lang
20:10	SrPx	: S
20:10	metellus	SrPx: look at examples from http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/map
20:10	gfredericks	SrPx: if that's the case then you almost certainly shouldn't be writing macros
20:11	jayunit100	yup but the error message itself : clearly, its an incorrect error message.
20:11	amalloy	jayunit100: no it's not
20:11	amalloy	&(.replaceAll "x")
20:11	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: replaceAll for class java.lang.String
20:11	amalloy	&(.replaceAll "x" "x" "y")
20:11	lazybot	⇒ "y"
20:12	jayunit100	ah b/c its referring to the reflection looking for a 1 arg version of replaceAll, which doesn't exist.
20:12	gfredericks	yeah, it's matching on more than just the name
20:12	amalloy	well, it's actually looking for either a field or a no-arg method
20:12	amalloy	and decides to report that it couldn't find the field
20:12	dnolen	nDuff: heh I'm not sure about that. We've been beating the dead carcass of Algol-like langs and emaciated Smalltalks for 30+ years. Dart wants to keep the zombie corpse going but at least they have a couple of real ideas in there - mirrors, optional types, metadata.
20:12	jayunit100	if thats the case it should report the arg signature it tried to match also , yes?
20:12	wingy	brehaut: nice article .. will be a good read after my book
20:13	brehaut	no problem
20:15	xumingmingv	for type hint, how do I specify a 'array' hint? e.g. URL[]
20:16	amalloy	^"[Ljava.net.URL;" iirc
20:19	amalloy	probably not a bad idea to write a macro that hides the yuckiness there. (defmacro array-hint [dims class obj] (vary-meta obj assoc :tag (apply str `(~@(repeat dims "[") "L" class ";")))) (array-hint 1 java.net.URL x)
20:20	xumingmingv	amalloy: thanks!
20:37	shawnlewis	is there something in core to check if a map is a subset of another map?
20:39	gfredericks	,((fn [m1 m2] (apply = (map (juxt m1 m2) (keys m1)))) {:foo 2 :bar 6} {:bar 6 :bam 23 :foo 2})
20:39	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "accessDeclaredMembers")>
20:39	gfredericks	&((fn [m1 m2] (apply = (map (juxt m1 m2) (keys m1)))) {:foo 2 :bar 6} {:bar 6 :bam 23 :foo 2})
20:39	lazybot	⇒ false
20:39	gfredericks	clojurebot: go away
20:39	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:39	gfredericks	&((fn [m1 m2] (every? (partial apply =) (map (juxt m1 m2) (keys m1)))) {:foo 2 :bar 6} {:bar 6 :bam 23 :foo 2})
20:39	lazybot	⇒ true
20:40	brehaut	,(let [a {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} b {:a 1 :c 3}] (= (select-keys a (keys b)) b))
20:40	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "accessDeclaredMembers")>
20:40	brehaut	&(let [a {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} b {:a 1 :c 3}] (= (select-keys a (keys b)) b))
20:40	lazybot	⇒ true
20:40	gfredericks	brehaut: mine's lazier
20:40	hiredman	clojurebot's eval is closed until further notice
20:40	brehaut	gfredericks: and juxtier :(
20:40	gfredericks	hiredman: intentionall?
20:41	gfredericks	y
20:41	hiredman	yes
20:41	gfredericks	that will be noisy
20:41	gfredericks	he should forward to lazybot :)
20:41	shawnlewis	gfredericks, brehaut: thanks!
20:41	hiredman	hopefully further notice won't be that long
20:43	wingy	how can this be 2: (#(- %1 (apply + %&)) 10 8)
20:43	wingy	isn't it the same as: (- 10 18)
20:43	gfredericks	looks like the same as (- 10 (apply + [10 18]))
20:43	wingy	oh its (- 10 8)
20:43	brehaut	&'(#(- %1 (apply + %&)) 10 8)
20:43	lazybot	⇒ ((fn* [p1__8501# & rest__8502#] (- p1__8501# (apply + rest__8502#))) 10 8)
20:44	gfredericks	wat
20:44	xeqi	hmm, has lazybot always printed anon functions like that?
20:44	brehaut	thats what it expands to (apply + 8) ; => 8, (- 10 8) ;=> 2
20:44	gfredericks	xeqi: he quoted it
20:44	xeqi	ah
20:44	brehaut	just getting rid of the anon reader sugar
20:44	gfredericks	xeqi: quoting is a great way to see what reader macros do
20:45	gfredericks	&'#'foo
20:45	lazybot	⇒ (var foo)
20:45	xeqi	&'#=3
20:45	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: clojure.lang.LispReader$ReaderException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
20:45	brehaut	its also a great way to look lke you are swearing at vars
20:45	gfredericks	brehaut: I don't mind that because likely I am swearing at vars
20:56	amalloy	dnolen: is there a way to unify maps partially, or something like that? currently i have some tuples, and if i want to assert that (say) the third value of x is a, i have to do (fresh [r s t] (== x [r s a t])); i'd like to instead use a map with four keys, and just unify a single key of x with a
21:00	wingy	im reading up a bit on JVM and CLR .. is there any benefits on using https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr
21:00	wingy	i guess the jvm one is more mainstream?
21:01	wingy	for .NET interop mainly right?
21:05	dnolen	amalloy: something is needed here ... but I haven't put much thought into it, open to ideas.
21:10	gfredericks	(map-valueo m k v)
21:11	gfredericks	could be a primitive?
21:11	gfredericks	I assume that would take a lot of backend work though
21:12	dnolen	amalloy: if you had some syntax in mind that could at least get the conversation started.
21:13	xumingmingv	anyone recommend an easy to use java de-compiler? jd-gui's official website is broken...
21:13	xumingmingv	(on mac)
21:14	amalloy	dnolen: i think gfredericks's suggestion is plausible. or (==m thing1 {:a x}) ;; unifies (:a thing1) with x
21:15	amalloy	i have to go, though, so i can't defend my silly suggestions tonight
21:15	dnolen	amalloy: will think about it, I've pondering better map support so it's something I'd like to see.
21:15	amalloy	thanks!
21:15	dnolen	pondered better map support before I mean.
22:10	hiredman	,(println "further notice")
22:10	clojurebot	further notice
22:10	gfredericks	(inc hiredman)
22:10	lazybot	⇒ 10
22:11	hiredman	made some changes to the sandbox
22:11	gfredericks	hiredman: would it be easy to support eval?
22:11	gfredericks	,(eval '(+ 1 2))
22:11	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
22:11	gfredericks	hiredman: via recursion?
22:12	wmealing	is there a web based .. repl where you can mess with the dom live ?
22:13	gfredericks	for clojurescript? himera or browser-repl depending on what you mean
22:13	hiredman	gfredericks: in theory I could just let eval through
22:13	steveo_	is there a limit on the number of items in a vector?
22:13	steveo_	i'm accumulating stuff in one
22:13	gfredericks	hiredman: oh it's all java-based security?
22:13	gfredericks	steveo_: not practically
22:13	TimMc	gfredericks: You can already use eval.
22:13	hiredman	gfredericks: there is some clojure based stuff, but it not very good
22:14	hiredman	steveo_: yes
22:14	steveo_	this might not be practical
22:14	gfredericks	TimMc: how so?
22:14	TimMc	,(let [evil (resolve (symbol "eval"))] (evil '(+ 1 2)))
22:14	clojurebot	3
22:14	hiredman	steveo_: depending on what you mean by a limit
22:14	hiredman	there is a limit to the size of a vector literal you can use
22:14	steveo_	well I'm getting problems at like 3kish
22:14	gfredericks	hiredman: because of java class size limits?
22:15	steveo_	is there a better data structure for accumulating a ton of items?
22:15	TimMc	gfredericks: ^ The usual.
22:15	gfredericks	TimMc: that is unexpected
22:15	gfredericks	steveo_: you're doing this at runtime, right?
22:15	steveo_	yeah
22:15	gfredericks	and how are you adding items?
22:15	steveo_	conj
22:16	gfredericks	,(time (vec (range 10000)))
22:16	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 45.217663 msecs"
22:16	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 ...]
22:16	gfredericks	steveo_: what sort of problems?
22:17	TimMc	Oh dear.
22:17	TimMc	What happened recently to make clojurebot so crashy?
22:17	steveo_	well I was keeping track of it by checking the count, and the count stopped going up
22:17	steveo_	at 3035
22:18	gfredericks	steveo_: not sure what that means out of context. you're "checking the count" while some parallel process is running? or it's a debugging statement?
22:18	steveo_	I guess i'm not totally sure the items were'nt still getting added but my plan was to have a watcher check the count and once it gets to something big like 10000 write it to s3
22:19	steveo_	ok, I have an atom with a vector it in, i'm logging stuff to the atom with (swap! my-atom conj "newthing")
22:19	steveo_	I have a watcher that checks the count and once it's high enough it'll reset the atom to [] and "process" the accumulated items
22:20	steveo_	but (count @my-atom) stopped going up at 3035
22:20	gfredericks	,(let [v (atom [])] (dotimes [n 100000] (swap! v conj n)) (apply max (shuffle @v)))
22:20	clojurebot	99999
22:20	wingy	i kinda see this documentation layout for many projects http://weavejester.github.com/hiccup/
22:20	wingy	what are they using to generate it?
22:22	weavejester	wingy: https://github.com/weavejester/codox
22:22	gfredericks	steveo_: so the watcher logs for you? and it keeps printing 3035 repeatedly?
22:22	steveo_	no I was checking it myself to see what was going on
22:22	steveo_	i'll have the watcher log it and see what happens
22:23	gfredericks	steveo_: without knowing anything else, it sounds much more plausible the atom isn't being swapped anymore for some reason
22:23	acheng	clojure.test question: can i execute a single specific test at the repl? or must it always be by entire namespace?
22:24	wingy	weavejester: cool
22:25	wmealing	gfredericks, i'll look into that. .thanks
22:25	steveo_	gfredericks: yeah it looks like it, I just had the watcher log it and it just stopped at 2990
22:25	steveo_	is it possible to overload an atom?
22:26	gfredericks	like update it too many times? no
22:26	gfredericks	maybe you should look at whatever process is doing the swapping
22:26	gfredericks	it doesn't sound likely that vectors or atoms are your issue
22:27	steveo_	yeah I guess not
22:27	steveo_	alright, i'll keep digging, thanks
22:27	acheng	hmm. stuartsierra's blog post from 2010/07/05 says "individual tests cannot be run outside of run-tests" since fixtures rely on dynamic scope
22:27	melipone	for some reason my irc at work is screwed up. How can I ask questions about clojure on twitter?
22:28	acheng	melipone: can you ssh to somewhere else and then irc from there?
22:28	jayunit100	hmmm not sure if this is a clojure issue or not :
22:28	melipone	hmmm... I don't think so
22:28	jayunit100	(.replaceAll (json/json-str (rts/word-enrichment-url url)) "," ",\r\n"))
22:29	jayunit100	should that render as a line break in normal browsers ^^ ?
22:29	gfredericks	acheng: leiningen test-selectors might help some
22:29	acheng	melipone: my employer blocks the irc ports so i ssh to freeshell
22:29	acheng	freeshell = sdf public access unix system
22:29	melipone	acheng: okay, I didn't know about freeshell
22:29	technomancy	acheng: clojure-test-mode has a way to run fixtures with a single test
22:29	acheng	at sdf.org
22:29	technomancy	bit of a hack
22:29	gfredericks	jayunit100: unless you're in a <pre>, I think you need a real <br /> to get a line break
22:30	jayunit100	arg… what if its plain text ?
22:30	jayunit100	I'm wondering how Facebook does it : https://graph.facebook.com/me/home?access_token=AAAAAAITEghMBALaSPAVOj2ugYhHtMP2TPg8IexZA2KPtuHQJZAR9muMHZAPETKc0DLFIakfUWblNtV5djHxDIhEKdETzYNpuhdj8JB1xa6M86h2u3gS
22:32	jayunit100	fyi I'm in composure , trying to stream plaintext
22:32	gfredericks	jayunit100: oh that's the browser rendering plain text. that should work fine I would think. what is it doing?
22:32	jayunit100	the link above (Facebook) renders plaintext just fine.
22:33	jayunit100	but i don't know how to get composure to output plain text
22:33	xeqi	jayunit100: I get content-type "text/javascript" in the response headers
22:33	xeqi	for that page
22:35	acheng	(thanks technomancy gfredericks)
22:38	jayunit100	(GET "/text" [{:headers {"Content-Type" "text/plain"}} "This is plain text." "And some more text."]) <-- key must be integer exception.
22:39	wingy	isn't recur introducing imperative style?
22:39	wingy	loop/recur reminds me about for in loop
22:40	gfredericks	it's a little more functional than that
22:40	gfredericks	but it is more on the imperative side of clojure's things and so it's smelly to use it if some HOF or two will suffice
22:41	gfredericks	I think it might perform well and so gets used when that's important
22:42	xeqi	jayunit100: try (GET "/text" _ {:status 200 :headers {"Content-Type" "text/plain"} :body "this is plain text.\nAnd some more text"})
22:42	jayunit100	hmm ok y?
22:43	gfredericks	wingy: it's more functional because when you use it you're still dealing with immutable locals, rather than imperatively punching things over and over
22:43	jayunit100	xeqi !!!! works !
22:44	xeqi	there are probably nicer ways to build that ring response, using ring.util.response
22:54	jayunit100	whats the diff btwn :require vs require ?
22:55	gfredericks	require is a function you can call
22:55	gfredericks	:require is some syntax that the ns macro supports
22:55	gfredericks	so it only works there
22:55	gfredericks	with :require you don't quote symbols, but with the function you have to
22:56	jayunit100	ah ok
22:57	jayunit100	gfredericks: my herok
22:57	jayunit100	s/herok/hero
22:57	gfredericks	no I prefer herok please
22:57	jayunit100	s/herok/heroku :)
22:57	gfredericks	I'm somewhere in between the two
22:58	wingy	im confused .. (def x 5) .. here x is a var or a symbol?
22:58	gfredericks	I think I killed brehaut
22:58	gfredericks	wingy: yes and no
22:58	gfredericks	syntactically x is a symbol. but what def is doing is creating a var named x
22:58	gfredericks	so wherever else you use the symbol x in that namespace it should refer to that var
23:00	gfredericks	dangit the vars/symbols talk from clojurewest isn't video'd yet :(
23:00	Raynes	I should try doing the whole video editing thing one day.
23:01	Raynes	I completely do not understand why it takes so long for conference videos to surface.
23:01	gfredericks	Raynes: they don't hold them back to incentivize attendence?
23:01	nickmbailey	^ that
23:01	Raynes	I guess that's a possibility.
23:02	wingy	how many people attended you think?
23:02	Raynes	A lot.
23:02	gfredericks	seven or a thousand
23:02	wingy	cool
23:02	xeqi	I was told clojure/west was around 300, which sounds about the same as the conj last year
23:03	wingy	gfredericks: you mean def is creating a var which has a symbol x .. you name a var by putting a symbol ("tag") on it
23:05	gfredericks	wingy: I'm not sure what your second statement means; vars are referred to implicitly in code. When a symbol is eval'd by the compiler, it is first checked if it is a local, and if not it is checked if it is a var
23:05	jayunit100	,(map? clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap)
23:05	clojurebot	false
23:05	gfredericks	also it's maybe 7 times more complicated than that
23:05	gfredericks	jayunit100: that's a class
23:05	xeqi	,(class clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap)
23:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
23:05	jayunit100	oops bad example
23:06	jayunit100	I can't create one b/c its constructor is messed up :)
23:06	wingy	gfredericks: can a var have multiple symbols associated to it?
23:06	xeqi	,(class {})
23:06	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
23:06	jayunit100	,(map? {})
23:06	clojurebot	true
23:06	wingy	gfredericks: im thinking like unix fs .. you have pointers to the actual file
23:06	gfredericks	wingy: that's usually namespace dependent. So for example if you (use 'clojure.test) then the symbol 'deftest and the symbol clojure.test/deftest both point to the same var
23:07	wingy	symbols remind me about the pointers
23:07	jayunit100	ah i see its a unit test thats failing b/c I'm testing if a class is a map after running type on it.
23:07	aperiodic	gfredericks, wingy: http://clojure.org/evaluation
23:07	gfredericks	wingy: symbols don't inherently point to anything, it is only in the context of a namespace when being compiled
23:07	gfredericks	oh resolved is a good word
23:07	gfredericks	I forgot that one
23:07	wingy	i see
23:51	michaelr`	good morning
23:51	TimMc	g'night
23:52	michaelr`	:)
23:52	michaelr`	actually i'd rather go to sleep than start a work day