#clojure – 2012-06-30

2012-06-30

02:11	xumingmingv	I'am stuck with how to a gen-class and java array related problem
02:11	xumingmingv	https://gist.github.com/3022563
02:11	xumingmingv	is the :constructor part correct?
02:12	xumingmingv	to use "[java.net.URL;" to represent a java.net.URL class?
03:25	SrPx	Hey guys. Is there a lein command to run a .clj file?
03:30	antares_	SrPx: there is no, you run namespaces
03:30	antares_	lein run -m my.namespace.to.run
03:31	antares_	namespaces that you want to run need to have (:gen-class) in the (ns …) definition and the -main function that takes & args
03:31	antares_	that's it
04:04	SrPx	antares_: o.o
05:04	Raynes	Well guys, the Heroku outage isn't effecting refheap anymore. Unfortunately, the database service I use was also effected by the storm that hit the AWS data center. My database is down and until it comes back up, refheap wont be working. Heroku will be trying to restart refheap every 10 minutes for the rest of the night until the database comes back online.
05:05	Raynes	I'm going to bed, sirs and madams.
05:06	borkdude	oops
05:06	borkdude	I read about the storm on the news now… good luck and sleep well
05:28	alexyakushev	Hello, I'm a new to protocols but is it possible to extend some protocol for an arbitrary object to support destructuring?
05:29	alexyakushev	I guess if such a protocol exists it should implement `get` function or something
05:34	borkdude	alexyakushev maybe this? https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/K5HyK7GDnUE
05:35	borkdude	alexyakushev destructuring uses nth
05:37	alexyakushev	borkdude: Thanks! I'll take a look
05:37	alexyakushev	borkdude: I'm looking for associative destructuring, like for maps
05:37	borkdude	alexyakushev example?
05:38	alexyakushev	borkdude: You know, {:keys [foo bar]}
05:38	borkdude	ah
05:38	alexyakushev	Yes, I found how to do that using `proxy` under the link you provided, thank you again
05:39	alexyakushev	Though I hoped it is possible to do this without wrapping of any kind. But that's too much:)
05:40	borkdude	alexyakushev I don't know what is used for associative destructuring, maybe the Associative interface?
05:41	alexyakushev	From the source code it calls simple `get`, as far as I can tell
05:41	alexyakushev	And `get` is redirected to clojure.lang.RT
05:41	alexyakushev	I haven't looked inside yet, but I guess protocols are not available that deep, am I wrong?
05:42	borkdude	alexyakushev I think you are right, clojurescript has that better solved I think
05:42	borkdude	alexyakushev one day maybe protocols will make it into this more fundamental level
05:42	alexyakushev	Well, hail to the Clojure in Clojure while we're waiting for it:)
05:43	borkdude	alexyakushev just apply a patch ;)
06:07	borkdude	is there any clojurescript game similar to tictactoe on github?
08:28	N8Dawg	is anyone else having trouble connecting to www.datomic.com ?
08:56	kmicu	N8Dwag: no, it works
09:01	kmicu	N8Dawg: but some Heroku and AWS US based servers was down earlier, maybe this is the reason
10:36	gfredericks	I'm using Raphael with cljs and wanted to try out advanced compilation. Obviously I need to declare 'var Raphael' in an externs file, but what about all the methods on the raphael objects? how do I declare those?
10:38	cemerick	gfredericks: I'm right behind you. Please do post or gist about it when you have that riddled out.
10:38	gfredericks	haha
10:38	gfredericks	well I guess I'll try it the naive way and make sure it breaks first
10:46	gfredericks	is clojars on EC2?
10:53	gfredericks	well apparently justing setting :optimizations to :advanced in the cljsbuild config doesn't do it
10:53	tomoj	gfredericks: looking at the ip and https://forums.aws.amazon.com/ann.jspa?annID=1528 , I'm guessing no
10:53	gfredericks	tomoj: ok thx; thought I might have connectivity trouble, but I think it's working fine
11:02	gfredericks	strangely the cljsbuild docs don't seem to mention advanced compilation at all o_O
11:27	gfredericks	oh nevermind it did do advanced
11:54	Scriptor	yep, makes a good deal of difference
11:54	Scriptor	18k lines to about 5k
11:54	Scriptor	andn that 18 is already minimzied
11:54	Scriptor	*minimized
12:58	wingy	first i thought why not goto-ns instead of in-ns .. is the answer that clojure tries to stay declarative?
13:09	gfredericks	wingy: if nothing else, goto-ns confusingly evokes goto
13:14	gfredericks	$mail cemerick I believe the externs section of http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html describes the correct way
13:14	lazybot	Message saved.
13:21	gfredericks	what are the implications of naming protocol methods with -foo instead of foo?
13:21	gfredericks	(in cljs)
13:23	Bronsa	it's just a convention i guess
13:24	wingy	heh .. i was confused why they only showed vars and not functions :) but functions are first class and can be assigned to any var
13:24	Bronsa	to tell that a protocol method is intended for internal use only
13:25	gfredericks	Bronsa: you know that? I originally assumed it was mandatory since it seemed to mirror the .-foo attribute access syntax
13:25	gfredericks	but only recently discovered you don't need it
13:25	gfredericks	and want to be sure there's not some crazy performance implication
13:26	Bronsa	i am not 100% sure, for that ask dnolen, but i'm pretty confident that's the only meaning to the - prefix
13:27	gfredericks	okay thanks
13:28	Bronsa	also gfredericks the .-foo syntax was introduced after those protocols were made so i dont think it's related in anyway
13:28	Bronsa	any way*
13:29	gfredericks	ah ha. good to know.
13:50	noko33	why (meta ^String 'sym) is nil but (meta ^String []) resolves to {:tag java.lang.String} ?
13:51	Bronsa	i'm guessing you are applying the metadata to the (quote sym) list
13:54	dreish	Yes, you would need to do (meta '^String sym)
13:54	dreish	'^String sym is a tagged, quoted symbol.
13:56	dreish	It looks more sensible if you write out the quote instead of using a quote mark: (meta (quote ^String sym)) ; yes ... (meta ^String (quote sym)) ; no
14:04	noko33	Bronsa, dreish: thanks, I understand now
14:11	dnolen	gfredericks: - is just a convention. first the fn vs. the -first as implemented by a particular type.
14:16	gfredericks	dnolen: okay cool, thanks
14:31	bagelz	is there a clojurebot repl I can pm?
14:31	gfredericks	you can pm clojurebot
14:32	gfredericks	,(+ 1 2)
14:32	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: sandbox$eval-in-box>
14:32	gfredericks	clojurebot seems to be ill
14:32	gfredericks	but you can also pm lazybot
14:32	bagelz	very cool
14:32	bagelz	I pmed him and he did it fine
14:32	bagelz	that is fantastic.
14:47	gfredericks	isn't there a constant-time way to find the highest bit set in a number?
14:48	gfredericks	without using logarithms :(
14:55	wingy	whats the point of:
14:55	wingy	(require 'clojure.set)
14:55	wingy	(clojure.set/union #{1 2 3} #{4 5 6})
14:55	wingy	the first line .. the second seems to work without the 1st
14:56	gfredericks	the require ensures that clojure.set has been loaded. If it got loaded somewhere else already I suppose the second line would still work, but you shouldn't count on it
14:57	dnolen	wingy: some REPLs (lein) may have loaded clojure.set, but that won't always be the case.
14:58	wingy	but in the 2nd line im using a namespace qualified symbol
14:58	wingy	cant still get why i would need the first one
14:59	dnolen	wingy: libs are not automatically loaded.
14:59	wingy	this works: (clojure.string/blank? "")
14:59	wingy	without loading it
14:59	tmciver	wingy: in general you need the require. For me, lein repl loads it automatically, swank clojure does not.
14:59	wingy	blank? doesnt work
14:59	dnolen	wingy: what REPL are you using?
14:59	wingy	lein
14:59	dnolen	wingy: lein loads a bunch of things
15:00	dnolen	wingy: if you use the standard Clojure REPL (which is not as nice), you have to require first.
15:00	wingy	dnolen: no it didnt load string namespace since blank? wont work
15:00	wingy	but having (clojure.string/blank? "") worked
15:00	dnolen	wingy: blank? won't work because you didn't "use"" it, unrelated.
15:00	wingy	so unless it is doing some magic underneath when i use the full qualified name i still dont get why i have to require
15:00	gfredericks	wingy: first look up require vs use
15:00	dnolen	wingy: because automatically loading libs is a terrible idea.
15:01	dnolen	wingy: refer to the section on namespaces in your favorite Clojure book, should clarify things.
15:03	wingy	dnolen: the example was from the book
15:09	wingy	ok one last try: so i fire up "clj" version 1.4 .. i run (blank? "") it couldnt resolve symbol .. i run (clojure.string/blank? "") it worked .. i didn't require it .. so i run (require 'clojure.string) and it required it .. i do (blank? "") it didnt work .. i do (clojure.string/blank? "") it worked .. i dont get the purpose of require
15:10	wingy	what did it help me with without me being able to do before i required it
15:10	gfredericks	wingy: (blank? "") will never work until you do (use 'clojure.string)
15:10	wingy	yeah i know .. im trying to get require
15:10	gfredericks	that's a separate issue
15:10	wingy	i get use .. i dont get require .. whats the purpose
15:10	gfredericks	okay so don't infer anything from whether or not blank? works
15:11	gfredericks	the purpose of require is to ensure that the namespace has been loaded. the reason you're seeing the behavior you are is that it was loaded already before you required it, which should be considered a coincidence
15:14	wingy	by loaded you mean the source files are read into memory .. and i can use them but have to specify the namespace qualified symbol
15:14	wingy	makes more sense now
15:14	gfredericks	no you do have to specify the namespace qualified symbol
15:14	gfredericks	oh yes you said that
15:14	gfredericks	sorry I read an extra negative
15:14	wingy	you inverted my expression
15:14	gfredericks	yes I think you have it
15:15	SrPx	hey guys what is again that clojure library to write html clojure-like and then convert?
15:15	gfredericks	hiccup
15:15	gfredericks	or crate in cljs
15:15	wingy	seems that i always want to use (use)
15:15	gfredericks	wingy: it's deprecated
15:16	wingy	use is deprecated?
15:16	gfredericks	require now has the use functionality as part of its options, and you're encouraged not to blindly use everything from a namespace so that it's easier to track where each symbol comes from
15:16	gfredericks	but I still use use sometimes :)
15:17	gfredericks	don't tell anybody
15:17	wingy	lol
15:17	wingy	gfredericks: use will be removed? where is the deprecation info
15:17	gfredericks	I don't know about either of those
15:17	gfredericks	the changelog for 1.4 might mention it
15:18	wingy	how did you know its deprecated then
15:18	gfredericks	I hang out in #clojure a lot
15:18	wingy	the book isnt mentioning it
15:18	wingy	ok
15:18	gfredericks	1.4 is pretty recent
15:18	gfredericks	probably recenter than any book
15:19	SrPx	gfredericks: ty
15:22	wingy	ok require over use and refer
15:22	wingy	so many options are creating incidental complexity
15:23	gfredericks	the ns macro has a long and sordid history
15:23	bagelz	unavoidable if it's supposed to be useful, right?
15:35	wingy	clojure is as unix as it can get
15:35	brainproxy	defend your statement
15:36	wingy	small pieces doing one thing good one thing only
15:36	wingy	then macros come to help you
15:36	brainproxy	:)
15:36	wingy	this and that to require .. but dont use them! they will make your code messy
15:36	wingy	use "ns" macro
15:36	wingy	kinda wtf
15:37	wingy	you first confuse me .. then you help me out .. while in node.js you just use require()
15:37	brainproxy	oh, your coming from nodejs also?
15:37	brainproxy	*you're
15:37	wingy	yeah .. explaining my confusions a lot huh? :)
15:37	brainproxy	me too
15:37	brainproxy	I started w/ nodejs in jan 2010
15:38	wingy	a little bit later for me .. are you still using it?
15:38	brainproxy	still really like it, sure
15:38	brainproxy	some things are easy to reach for
15:38	brainproxy	such as sockjs, socket.io
15:38	wingy	yeah their npm is really neat
15:38	brainproxy	yeah, npm is really slick
15:39	wingy	so simple .. also node.js itself is so simple and powerful .. but js is bleeh
15:39	wingy	used a lot of coffeescript before livescript
15:39	brainproxy	js can be nice, and I like coffeescript a lot
15:39	wingy	have a look at LiveScript
15:39	wingy	its Coffee with FP style
15:39	brainproxy	but ultimately, once you get a sense of what immutable collections and STM bring to the table, it's hard to want to prog in plain old js
15:40	wingy	yeah
15:40	wingy	for how long have you been using clojure?
15:40	brainproxy	going on two months now
15:40	brainproxy	not very long
15:40	tomoj	STM == atoms in this case?
15:40	brainproxy	read the O'Reilly book on Clojure as a crash course
15:40	brainproxy	tomoj: i meant STM in general
15:41	brainproxy	as opposed to having to think about splitting work out to different processes
15:41	tomoj	processes? thought you were talking about js
15:41	brainproxy	nodejs has a notion of processes
15:41	brainproxy	e.g. the child_process module
15:41	brainproxy	which is actually really cool
15:41	tomoj	don't see how that is relevant
15:42	brainproxy	well, um, with a single thread, if you have anything cpu bound then you'll get eaten alive
15:42	brainproxy	so you need to split out work and coordinate among processes
15:42	wingy	for blocking operations
15:42	brainproxy	even with the cluster sugar, it's still kind of hairy
15:43	wingy	if you don't want to chunk the long living operations in pieces and have everything in one process .. but that is an ugly hack in my ears
15:43	tomoj	I don't see how cljs helps at all there
15:43	brainproxy	we're not talking cljs
15:44	brainproxy	if I accidentally said cljs i meant straight up clojure
15:44	tomoj	oh, clj-jvm vs js?
15:44	brainproxy	yes
15:44	brainproxy	well, vs nodejs considered in toto, not just js the language
15:44	wingy	clj/jvm vs js/node.js
15:45	wingy	i feel it doesn't add much value to use cljs on node.js
15:45	tomoj	I disagree strongly
15:47	tomoj	unless you mean it doesn't add much value to use cljs/node.js instead of clj/jvm, then I only disagree weakly :)
15:47	brainproxy	i think cljs on top of nodejs is pretty attractive actually
15:47	wingy	yeah that was my point
15:48	brainproxy	because of the things cljs gives you
15:48	wingy	i would rather wanna use clj/jvm than cljs/node.js
15:48	brainproxy	i'm just saying that when I bump up against anything that dips into mvcc territory
15:48	brainproxy	then I am going to go with clojure/jvm
15:48	brainproxy	hands down
15:49	brainproxy	the reality is that a lot of web facing stuff, e.g. collaborative web apps, that kind of thing
15:49	wingy	brainproxy: what db are you using?
15:49	brainproxy	easily start to deal with mvcc related concerns, and in my experience trying to work that out with node is kind of difficult
15:49	tomoj	I would almost say that it is impossible
15:50	brainproxy	wingy: some couch stuff, i am experimenting with orientdb also
15:59	wingy	thougt about using datomic .. anyone having experience with that one?
16:18	antares_	folks who have been asking for an alternative insert function in Monger: 1.1.0-beta1 now has it, see https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/ChangeLog.md
16:32	augustl	are there any books out there that describes the details of the inner workings of the persistent data structures in clojure?
16:35	arohner	augustl: http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
16:35	arohner	http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/
16:42	augustl	arohner: cool, thanks :)
16:42	augustl	would be interesting to try to implement it on top of Node.js buffers
16:42	augustl	which are just raw out-of-vm (but still garbage collected) allocated bytes
16:47	wingy	lein is like npm but for the whole project cycle
16:47	wingy	pretty cool
16:48	augustl	there are so many things that are solved problems on the JVM platform.. Makes you wonder why people bother to make new ones.
16:48	augustl	I've heard Oracle is implementing Node.js on the JVM, for example
16:49	antares_	with a complete JS implementation based on invokedynamic, yes
16:49	wingy	what?
16:49	clojurebot	what is 2d6
16:49	augustl	V8 is cool, but is it worth having to write all the libraries from scratch again? :)
16:49	antares_	it will be part of JDK 8, called Nashorn
16:49	augustl	a fork of Rhino?
16:49	antares_	no, a green field design
16:49	antares_	invokedynamic from the ground up
16:50	augustl	interesting naming, Nashorn = rhino (ish) in many european languages
16:50	antares_	yes, absolutely, that's the pun
16:51	antares_	http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.jvmlangsummit.com%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fce%2FNashorn.pdf&ei=imbvT5npNYLU-gariJmvAw&usg=AFQjCNFyPrV5etR8ikgrNn5-5wZCZUWyGA&sig2=ywfL2opN9UPUq0gVayfTEg
16:52	augustl	great, thanks
16:52	wingy	so js would be yet another jvm lang
16:52	antares_	right
16:52	wingy	using a new engine
16:53	wingy	but that wouldn't affect clojure programmers who only wants to use clojure
16:53	augustl	Rhino is kind of black magic, seems like a welcome addition
16:53	wingy	i can understand the need for javascript for java coders since java is not dynamic
16:54	antares_	wingy: it has no relation to Clojure, just saying that Oracle indeed works on a JS implementation and there are at least two projects that are "polyglot Node.js-like environments"
16:54	wingy	yeah
16:54	antares_	and it is just one more proof that they care about JVM being polyglot
16:54	wingy	pretty cool initiative
16:54	wingy	yeah just like heroku
16:54	wingy	i like polyglotism
16:58	wingy	seems that jvm is of higher value, than the java lang itself
16:58	wingy	i dont think they thought it would play out like this in the late 90s?
16:58	wingy	the goal was to make Java the lang popular right
16:59	pipeline	as far as i understand it
17:00	pipeline	they expected the jvm to be very valuable also
17:00	augustl	not sure if this is off topic, does clojurescript implement persistent data structures? The presentation by Rich Hickey on blip.tv is a year old or so
17:00	antares_	augustl: it does
17:00	augustl	with the same performance characteristics of cloure?
17:01	augustl	that is, a vector with 1000 items won't perform a full cow when creating a copy with one more item added to it, etc
17:03	tomoj	if it did that, it wouldn't be persistent, would it?
17:03	antares_	augustl: more or less, they are doing some interesting things to get as close as possible to JVM Clojure performance where JS VMs can optimize things well
17:04	tomoj	actually if you always do a full copy, then 'old versions' are not penalized, so maybe that does count as persistent.. just always slow?
17:05	augustl	antares_: cool
17:05	technomancy	tomoj: I'm not sure the whole "old versions don't degrade in perf" is necessarily technically part of persistence. I think it depends on who you ask.
17:05	augustl	tomoj: no idea.. I'd guess the performance characteristics of making copies with alterations is part of the whole "persistent" thing
17:05	tomoj	technomancy: naturally
17:06	tomoj	in effect I was asking you :)
17:06	augustl	currently investigating why everyone is using backbone and jQuery and nobody is using google closure for building JS apps, google closure seems insanely powerful
17:06	augustl	(meta-related to clojurescript)
17:11	tomoj	with backbone you just download one small file, drop in a jquery cdn link, write 10 lines of code and you have a stupid todo list
17:12	tomoj	for many it would take longer just to understand what the hell closure is I think
17:12	augustl	yeah, people seem to like tools that are easy to use the first days and weeks while writing an app
17:12	augustl	indeed, I'm currently having to make a big effort to figure out how to use closure. Seems like it's worth it, but the docs by Google are kind of meta
17:14	akhudek	sadly, I think there is probably a need for some sort of easy bootstrap for the clojure stack, even though that sort of "easy" is against the general philosophy of the language
17:14	akhudek	some of the noir + lein newnew templates are a good start
17:15	akhudek	I shouldn't say against the philosophy, rather, not the most important kind of "easy"
17:18	augustl	I've had enough of tools that optimize for being easy to get started with ;) The "getting started" chunk is quite a lot smaller than the "being a competent user of" chunk.
17:19	antares_	akhudek: it is not against, it is just not the #1 priority for the core team. I think the community in general is all for making all kinds of things easier on newcomers.
17:23	SrPx	...
17:26	SrPx	I'm trying to create a project using leiningen: C-x shell, lein new myproj... the problem its being created on emacs/bin
17:38	wingy	i feel disabled in clojure world
17:38	wingy	how do i run a .clj script?
17:40	kovasb	wingy: theres a number of tools for that
17:40	kovasb	wingy: 3rd party stuff on github
17:40	wingy	wow .. sounds hard to do a such simple things .. is it because it has to be compiled etc?
17:40	kovasb	or you can just write a shell script
17:41	kovasb	i don't think it needs to be compiled
17:41	wingy	is there no equivalent to someething as simple as: "node.js ./script.js" ?
17:41	kovasb	but it does need to be run through the jvm
17:41	wingy	"node ./script" i meant
17:41	kovasb	yes, there are such things
17:41	kovasb	probably many , on github
17:42	Chousuke	wingy: the biggest problem with running clojure programs as scripts is the jvm startup time.
17:42	kovasb	wingy: most stuff tends to be automated through lein
17:42	wingy	kovasb: could lein run a simple script like that?
17:42	kovasb	wingy: that automates a huge number of things
17:42	aperiodic	wingy: if you're using lein, then the easiest way is probably `lein run -m my.ns`, if my.ns has a -main fn
17:43	kovasb	usually i do "lein run"
17:43	kovasb	from inside my project folder
17:43	kovasb	and it runs
17:43	augustl	I don't think the java platform is commonly used for command line scripts
17:43	kovasb	wingy: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md
17:43	augustl	or CLIs in general
17:44	augustl	because of the slow startup time that was already mentioned
17:44	wingy	i see .. explains why its so difficult
17:44	kovasb	how to run a script is an example in the middle
17:44	augustl	so since few people do it, that's probably why it's hard to do :)
17:44	wingy	hmm a big -
17:44	wingy	scripts are making dev faster
17:44	kovasb	yeah, its more like "i wanna run my program" rather than "i wanna run my script"
17:44	kovasb	but nb there are solutions for jam startup time
17:45	augustl	doesn't `java -jar path/to/clojure.jar path/to/the-script.clj` work?
17:45	augustl	it will execute the -main of the-script.clj
17:45	augustl	(afaik)
17:46	kovasb	i think you put the namespace instead of a file path
17:46	aperiodic	what about the classpath?
17:46	kovasb	if you are calling java directly ilke that you need to use the options of java
17:47	kovasb	(the executable)
17:47	wingy	ok lein run -m app.core worked great .. ill stick to that one for now til im not a noob anymore :)
17:47	kovasb	sweet!
17:47	wingy	hate the first month of noobishness .. you are so disabled
17:47	kovasb	yeah learning about lein is great
17:47	kovasb	thats what its all about
17:48	wingy	"For those of you new to the JVM who have never touched Ant or Maven in anger: don't panic. Leiningen is designed with you in mind."
17:49	wingy	he read my mind
17:50	wingy	isnt there a way to make jvm startup time faster for testing things out?
17:50	wingy	eg. having it up all the time .. then there would be no need for start up?
17:53	augustl	wingy: there are many ways to reload stuff in a jvm as it runs yeah
17:54	wingy	augustl: i mean for running simple .clj scripts .. it takes like 5 secs for jvm to start .. is there a way to have it as fast as node?
17:54	aperiodic	no
17:54	wingy	ok
17:55	aperiodic	you can mitigate things somewhat by AOT-compiling, but jvm startup is always gonna be a second or two for the foreseeable future
17:56	augustl	wingy: well there are other JVMs out there than HotSpot, perhaps there are some with focus on startup speed
17:56	augustl	but now I'm just guessing, for all I know, long startup time is an effect of the bytecode formats or whatever
17:56	wingy	but why does it start and stop start and stop all the time .. cant it just be started?
17:57	wingy	if you want a clean state for some reason you could just run a command for it .. but it would always be started .. kinda makes sense
17:58	augustl	technically speaking it can, afaik
17:58	aperiodic	that is the usual strategy for development. run a repl or swank server, restart it only when you have to, and run tests in a persistent autotest mode so you don't have to wait on jvm startup
18:00	wingy	yeah i have to find my dev flow for clojure/java
18:01	wingy	it sure won't be like the one for node
18:01	wingy	and perhaps it shouldn't
18:01	aperiodic	do you use vim/emacs?
18:01	wingy	no
18:01	wingy	sublime text as a interim editor
18:08	aniero	wingy: vim or emacs gets you in-editor code evaluation with varying levels of hackery involved in making it work
18:08	aniero	recommend lein-tarsier + vimclojure, if you do vim. emacs, you're on your own
18:09	aniero	... or most people in here can help with that, i assume :D
18:09	wingy	:)
18:10	aniero	wingy: have a project you're working on?
18:10	wingy	yeah
18:11	wingy	i hope 2 weeks will get me up to speed with clojure
18:11	aniero	it'll probably take longer than that... heh
18:12	wingy	why i hope
18:12	aniero	think i'm getting the hang of things, though
18:18	SrPx	2 days trying to learn clojure and I can't even get a hello world because I can't do anything with emacs, clojure repl won't work with sublime, not good with notepad++, don't know eclipse
18:18	SrPx	sigh : /
18:19	hyPiRion	Tried clojure-box?
18:20	hyPiRion	http://clojure.bighugh.com/
18:20	amalloy	SrPx: just use your favorite editor, and don't bother with editor integration. paste it into a command-line repl
18:21	ivaraasen	SrPx: had some problems with the repl in Sublime myself. worked once i fixed the keymapping
18:21	SrPx	hmm
18:22	SrPx	amalloy: but everything uses leiningen
18:22	amalloy	yes, and i advocate using leiningen
18:22	wingy	just use the command line instead
18:22	SrPx	ivaraasen: you are using sublime?
18:22	amalloy	from the command line
18:22	wingy	SrPx: i am .. but just for editing text
18:22	amalloy	you don't need any editor support to use clojure productively
18:22	SrPx	ivaraasen: how did you fix the repl?
18:22	ivaraasen	SrPx: yeah
18:22	ivaraasen	i have leiningen installed though
18:23	wingy	wow cool .. lein repl includes clojuredocs examples
18:24	wingy	but bad that i have to run (doc ns) and then (cdoc ns(
18:24	wingy	but bad that i have to run (doc ns) and then (cdoc ns)
18:24	SrPx	ivaraasen: how did you do it
18:46	wingy	programming is like a game in which you want to escalate to the next level
18:49	ivaraasen	wingy: i prefer trying to glitch the games
18:51	augustl	speaking of games, have anyone ever created games with Clojure? I suppose interfacing with LWJGL from clojure isn't too hard.
18:51	antares_	augustl: people typically use clojurescript for games
18:52	augustl	for browser based games, you mean?
18:52	aperiodic	augustl: there are implementations of tetris & asteroids in penumbra's examples folder (https://github.com/ztellman/penumbra/tree/master/test/example/game)
18:52	ivaraasen	augustl: i've seen a guy do Minecraft mods in Clojure
18:53	aperiodic	(this seems to be a really popular question here in the past few days)
18:53	augustl	ivaraasen: ah, interesting, I'll look that up
18:54	ivaraasen	augustl: it's named conjcraft if I remember correctly
18:54	augustl	yeah just found it, that's correct
19:21	recur	Hi, I'm a clojure n00b. I want to repeatedly apply a function a set number of times passing in the output as the input. Is there a simple way to do that (I'm trying not to create loops :) )?
19:24	jjido	recur: you want a fold it seems
19:25	recur	oh cool, looks perfect
19:25	recur	thanks jjido, didn't know that existed :)
19:28	jjido	recur: it is called reduce
19:28	jjido	,doc reduce
19:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/doc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:28	recur	oh haha, i was looking at the actual clojure 'fold' function
19:28	recur	wow, clojurebot failed
19:28	jjido	I failed
19:29	recur	,doc fold
19:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/doc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:29	recur	at least it doesn't crash :D
19:29	recur	an egg drop hitting an exception on the other hand… :P
19:30	hyPiRion	,(doc reduce)
19:30	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
19:30	hyPiRion	It didn't fail, it returned exactly what you would expect it to return.
19:31	aperiodic	,(take 10 (iterate inc 0))
19:31	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
19:31	aperiodic	recur: i think iterate is what you want
19:31	aperiodic	,(doc iterate)
19:31	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
19:31	recur	ahh, awesome
19:32	recur	,(rest '(3 4 5))
19:32	clojurebot	(4 5)
19:32	recur	sweet bot :)
19:32	aperiodic	~botsnack
19:32	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
19:34	recur	,(clojure.repl/doc first)
19:34	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the first item in the collection. Calls seq on its argument. If coll is nil, returns nil."
19:35	recur	sweet, learned how to use namespaces at the same time. Pretty useful 5 mins :)
19:35	recur	thanks for the info!
19:36	recur	hehe, with light table and doc, I now have my own personal dynamic reference page :)
19:58	wingy	lein is the defacto for clojure i guess. no need to look at maven at all?
19:59	gfredericks	not unless you're already using it or have some organizational incentive like that
19:59	ivaraasen	i really need to try Overtone
20:01	wingy	looks really cool
20:01	wingy	music in code
20:03	SrPx	Can I use java libs on clojurescript? (guess not =S )
20:03	wingy	SrPx: yes
20:03	SrPx	wingy: o.o
20:03	wingy	full java interop
20:03	gfredericks	no
20:03	SrPx	...
20:04	wingy	oh ...
20:04	wingy	O_o
20:04	gfredericks	unless maybe you run it on rhino I suppose
20:04	gfredericks	but if you're doing that there's no reason to use cljs
20:04	wingy	oh clojurescript :P
20:04	gfredericks	there are easier ways to slow your code down
20:04	gfredericks	I recommend Thread/sleep
20:05	wingy	:)
20:06	wingy	overtone looks neat!
20:06	wingy	finally no more software pianos!
20:06	SrPx	õo
20:06	SrPx	lol.
20:18	kovasb	this 1424 build of cljs is killing me
20:18	kovasb	anyone know how satisfies? has changed?
20:19	ivaraasen	wingy: also, OSC integration is quite nice. i've done a few small live sessions using my Android phone to control Renoise.
20:20	gfredericks	I'm not sure how lein cljsbuild tests are supposed to work
20:21	kovasb	clojure needs the sponsorship of some internet billionare
20:21	kovasb	so many lose ends
20:23	gfredericks	a lot of ends have been tightened so far
20:23	kovasb	yes, but the surface area is speeding :)
20:23	kovasb	spreading
20:25	kovasb	fml. i can't event ind where satisfies? is implemented in the source
20:27	kovasb	ah there we go.
20:42	gfredericks	with the cljsbuild browser repl, is there any way to update code without restarting everything involved?
20:45	kovasb	update code?
20:45	wingy	seems that you really don't need to install clojure at all
20:45	gfredericks	like change my source code
20:45	gfredericks	and have the repl reflect that.
20:45	kovasb	you can reload the application without rebooting the repl
20:45	wingy	your install jvm then lein .. and it will fire up clojure using "lein repl"
20:45	kovasb	the repl state will remember what namespace you are in
20:46	kovasb	but the state in the browser will be wiped out
20:46	gfredericks	so refresh the page and reconnect?
20:46	wingy	could someone confirm
20:46	kovasb	the connect should happen automatically
20:46	kovasb	wingy: yes
20:47	wingy	kovasb: yay
20:47	gfredericks	kovasb: mine is manual
20:47	kovasb	often i just move to the namespace at the repl and paste the new code in
20:47	kovasb	hmm
20:47	gfredericks	which is how I set it up
20:47	gfredericks	just to aggravate myself apparently
20:48	kovasb	cool YMMV but it works "most" of the time for me
21:08	wingy	why do i have to quite 1: (def a ^{:created (System/currentTimeMillis)} 1)
21:08	wingy	that wont work, this do: (def a ^{:created (System/currentTimeMillis)} '1)
21:08	wingy	i dont get why
21:09	wingy	since (def a 1) without quoting works
21:10	gfredericks	oh you can't put metadata on numbers
21:10	gfredericks	it works the second way but not really
21:10	gfredericks	it just doesn't crash
21:11	gfredericks	when you add the quote you're essentially writing (quote 1)
21:11	Iceland_jack	gfredericks: Doesn't it apply the metadata to the quote?
21:11	Iceland_jack	Right
21:11	gfredericks	so the metadata gets added to that list
21:11	gfredericks	which gets lost at compile time
21:11	gfredericks	so there's no effect
21:11	gfredericks	you can put the metadata on the var though
21:12	arohner_	wingy: metadata can only be added to clojure objects (vars, symbols, datastructures)
21:12	wingy	i thought that was what i did
21:12	arohner_	java ints and strings are final, so clojure can't extend them
21:12	gfredericks	wingy: move it to before the a
21:12	wingy	this works: (def a ^{:created (System/currentTimeMillis)}
21:12	wingy	[1 2 3])
21:12	wingy	ah .. i think i get it
21:12	gfredericks	wingy: yeah vectors can have metadata
21:13	wingy	right
21:13	gfredericks	,(with-meta {:foo 2} #{1 2 3})
21:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentMap>
21:13	gfredericks	,(with-meta #{1 2 3} {:foo 2})
21:13	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
21:16	wingy	is ^ a sugar syntax for with-meta?
21:16	gfredericks	not quite
21:16	gfredericks	^ is read-time metadata attached to the code itself
21:16	gfredericks	whereas with-meta is a runtime function call
21:17	wingy	but in the end the meta data that is created is no different?
21:17	wingy	just different ways to create it?
21:18	gfredericks	well you have to be careful with the difference. In a lot of cases read-time metadata only has any effect if a macro or an element of the compiler is expecting it
21:18	gfredericks	if not it may not make it through to runtime
21:19	gfredericks	I could say (if foo ^{:haha true} bar baz) in my code
21:19	gfredericks	and the metadata would be meaningless
21:19	wingy	i see
21:20	gfredericks	because the compiler isn't expecting metadata there
21:21	gfredericks	,(meta (with-meta {} {:my :meta}))
21:21	clojurebot	{:my :meta}
21:21	gfredericks	,(let [x {}] (meta ^{:my :Meta} x))
21:21	clojurebot	nil
21:22	gfredericks	^ that's the difference I'm talking about
21:22	gfredericks	,(meta ^{:my :Meta} {})
21:22	clojurebot	{:my :Meta}
21:22	gfredericks	^ however that also
21:25	wingy	didnt know the last one worked
21:25	gfredericks	it's because the map {} compiles to itself
21:25	gfredericks	so it carries the metadata with it to runtime
21:25	wingy	so ^ isnt counted as a arg
21:25	gfredericks	correct
21:26	gfredericks	the reader immediately places the metadata on the map it creates
21:26	gfredericks	the compiler sees a list of two elements
21:26	gfredericks	a symbol meta and an empty map
21:26	gfredericks	it resolves the symbol meta to clojure.core/meta, and compiles to code that will call that var with the map as its argument
21:26	wingy	i see
21:27	gfredericks	it's the same map that the reader attached the metadata to, so it's still there
21:27	gfredericks	but in the middle case the reader attached the metadata to the symbol x
21:27	wingy	good thing to do is to know how clojure works exactly under the hood
21:27	gfredericks	which is not what the clojure.core/meta function is receiving as its argument
21:27	wingy	right
21:28	gfredericks	it took me a while to get the readtime/runtime distinction
21:28	wingy	i understood parse time and run time pretty quick in js .. have to get the clojure internals more in details
21:29	gfredericks	macros are a lot easier once you understand read vs compile vs run
21:29	wingy	run is eval?
21:29	gfredericks	no I just meant runtime
21:30	wingy	ok so 3 phases
21:30	gfredericks	yeah, at least abstractly
21:30	gfredericks	I'm not actually familiar with the internals too muchu
21:31	wingy	read time: source code to code structure, compile time: code structure to byte code, run time: run byte code
21:31	wingy	is that correct?
21:31	gfredericks	yep
21:31	gfredericks	macros run at compile time
21:32	wingy	yeah they manipulate the data structure at compile time
21:32	gfredericks	exactly
21:34	wingy	so the reader is for the first part, the compiler for the next .. is there a "runner" or is the compiler running it once it has the byte code?
21:34	gfredericks	I think that's just the jvm running it
21:34	wingy	ok
21:35	wingy	someone here said that parse-string is the reader
21:35	gfredericks	read-string?
21:35	clojurebot	read-string \|is\| as unsafe as eval unless read-eval is bound to false.
21:35	wingy	yeah
21:35	gfredericks	yeah that's basically it
21:35	wingy	and if you pass the returned data structure to eval it will be compiled and run
21:35	gfredericks	yep
21:36	gfredericks	read-string is good for figuring out what the reader macros do
21:36	wingy	so one can say from a higher perspective that eval is compiler/runner ?
21:36	gfredericks	I think it wraps the expr in a function, compiles that, and calls the function
21:36	gfredericks	so sorta
21:36	wingy	ok
21:37	mindbender	how do I install a plugin in lein2?
21:40	wingy	gfredericks: for how long have you been using cljure?
21:40	gfredericks	three or four years or something
21:40	wingy	wow
21:40	wingy	you must be very productive in it
21:41	gfredericks	it just makes me grumpy about other languages
21:41	wingy	yeah
21:41	wingy	it already has that affect on me
22:45	wingy	isnt there a good way to browse https://clojars.org/
22:54	mindbender	does the :extra-classpath-dirs option still work with lein2 cos I just got an error when trying to swank into a project that uses that option to specify the file the jvm was complaining of not finding?
22:55	mindbender	technomancy: ^^
22:55	technomancy	mindbender: it was removed in 2.x; try :resource-paths
23:18	frozenlo`	I'm using org-mode to write a text. In it I link to some images (with [[./folder/img.jpg]]). I want to use the exported as an input for Noir. So I do this `(slurp "my-html.html") and it works perfectly... except for the images. The "." appears in the images path, messing evertyhing up. Any workaround?
23:30	mindbender	technomancy: :resouce-paths got me up to having swank server started. I'm using :plugin [lein-swank "1.4.0"] then I get similar issue to https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/92. I on cygwin emacs 23.4.1
23:32	technomancy	hm; I don't know what causes that
23:32	mindbender	even slime-connect says connected but doesn't create slime-repl buffer
23:35	mindbender	could it be a plugin conflict?
23:35	technomancy	unlikely; it's probably on the elisp side
23:38	frozenlo`	Solved my problem. If anyone is interested, here is a little function to export org document to an html usable by Noir. https://gist.github.com/3026701
23:54	michaelr525	good morning
23:58	wingy	good morning