#clojure – 2012-05-22

2012-05-22

00:32	Raynes	Write cemerick hate mail.
00:33	nDuff	actually -- I'm tempted to try using drawbridge rather than the TCP socket handler -- I'm already running a servlet, and if that does a better job of shutting down cleanly, it'll kill multiple birds with one stone.
00:34	nDuff	(the client not shutting down cleanly is annoying; the server end not shutting down cleanly is a showstopper)
01:24	Roxxi	If I have java classes compile in my source directory (via leiningen) how do I reference them in clojure?
01:29	nDuff	Roxxi: are you asking about Java interop, or about building Java with leiningen? If the latter, do you have :java-source-paths set in your project.clj?
01:29	nDuff	Roxxi: ...if you don't know which of those the problem is in, have you checked whether .class files are generated?
01:30	Roxxi	I'm talking about Java interop, it seems that my classes are indeed being created.
01:30	Roxxi	I suppose I'm looking for the analogous invocation of (require 'package :as short-name)
01:31	nDuff	(import '[com.example ClassOne ClassTwo])
01:31	nDuff	...or something like that -- I usually just use the (ns) macro form
01:31	Roxxi	yeah, what's the ns macro form?
01:31	Roxxi	that's what I'm trying to find
01:32	nDuff	(ns foo (:import [com.example ClassOne ClassTwo]))
01:37	Roxxi	Thanks!
02:57	ro_st	i have (map (something) … )
02:57	ro_st	what's the paredit spell for killing the (map … ) part and leaving (something) behind?
03:08	neotyk	ro_st: kill (something), kill (map ...), C-y, M-y
03:09	neotyk	ro_st: sorry no paredit spell I know of
03:10	amalloy	whaaaat
03:10	amalloy	(map \|(something) ...) ;; M-r => \|(something)
03:11	amalloy	ro_st, neotyk: ^
03:11	neotyk	amalloy: sweet
03:12	neotyk	&(inc amalloy)
03:12	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: amalloy in this context
03:12	neotyk	(inc amalloy )
03:12	lazybot	⇒ 3
03:12	amalloy	there's paredit commands for pretty much anything interesting you can do with sexps
03:14	amalloy	even the occasionally-useful paredit-convolute-sexp: (fn [x] (fn [y] \|(/ x y))) ==> \|(fn [y] (fn [x] (/ x y)))
03:15	ro_st	amalloy: thank you. you rockstar you
03:15	ro_st	that's paredit-raise-sexp
03:15	ro_st	found it in the paredit cheatsheet i have stuck on my wall
03:15	ro_st	thanks!
03:17	ro_st	ah, convolute: turn inside out?
03:18	ro_st	wow, that rocks
03:19	ro_st	once you know all the paredit commands as 2nd nature, i can't think that any programmer in any other language could possibly be more efficient at expressing intent as code
03:19	michaelr`	last time i used paredit i somehow got to a situation of unbalanced []s and had to disable paredit to fix it and renable it again... it was very annoying
03:20	michaelr`	every time i start using emacs i have to deal with shit like this :)
03:21	michaelr`	emacs is my IRC client of choice, though :)
03:21	ro_st	why does the paredit indent feature double indent 'resource' in this code snippet? http://rationalist.co.za/uploads/Screen%20Shot%202012-05-22%20at%209.18.07%20AM-hpeksKuFXO.PNG
03:21	tomoj	you can just C-u DEL or C-u C-d to delete and e.g. C-q ) to just insert a close paren
03:22	michaelr`	oh.. thanks
03:22	ro_st	michaelr`: i've found it goes out of its way to keep parens balanced, actually. C-k will only kill to the closing paren, hitting ; on a line will only comment out the form and put the closing parens on the next line, etc
03:23	tomoj	I don't get that indentation
03:23	tomoj	I get this https://gist.github.com/651495618665de2a2041
03:23	ro_st	michaelr`: put this in your emacs init script: (require 'rainbow-delimiters) (global-rainbow-delimiters-mode)
03:24	michaelr`	ro_st: that what annoyed me, that it failed it's main porpuse too keep the parens balanced and then i had to make an extra effort to fix it
03:24	tomoj	paredit doesn't handle indentation I believe, so maybe you have some difference in your emacs lisp or clojure-mode indent settings?
03:24	ro_st	tomoj: ah, ok. i think it's slime that does indentation
03:24	ro_st	i'll look into it
03:25	tomoj	seems doubtful they'd reimplement indentation in slime
03:26	tomoj	michaelr`: it shouldn't fail unless you paste something unbalanced into it
03:26	ro_st	my slime menu has Editing > Update Indentation
03:26	tomoj	michaelr`: or comment stuff out without properly selecting a balanced form
03:26	neotyk	tomoj: if you ([ and hit backspace it goes unbalanced
03:27	tomoj	that would be silly
03:27	tomoj	for me, ([\|]) -DEL> (\|)
03:28	neotyk	not for me, (])
03:28	tomoj	DEL should be bound to paredit-backward-delete
03:28	michaelr`	ro_st: what's that rainbow coloring?
03:28	ro_st	rainbow parens colouring
03:28	michaelr`	ro_st: i have (highlight-parentheses-mode t) it does that too
03:28	ro_st	seem my screenshot link above
03:28	tomoj	(and you should be using paredit version 23)
03:28	neotyk	tomoj: it is paredit-backward-delete
03:29	ro_st	oh, right :)
03:29	tomoj	dunno if the version matters
03:29	neotyk	version 22 here
03:30	kral	hola
03:31	neotyk	tomoj: where did you get v23 from, marmelade has v22
03:31	tomoj	http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el
03:31	tomoj	(rename to paredit.el before putting in load-path)
03:32	tomoj	seems odd that they wouldn't have thought of that until v23 though..
03:32	tomoj	I mean that's the main point of paredit-backward-delete t ome
03:32	ro_st	what's new in 23?
03:33	tomoj	no clue :(
03:37	kima	/join #arch-linux
04:04	muhoo	how would i pass command-line args to an app on heroku?
04:08	tomoj	huh, I never noticed seque
04:08	hiredman	many a splendid thing
04:10	amalloy	i was sad to discover that you can't use seque from inside an agent action
04:11	amalloy	(because it's implemented using an agent, and when inside an agent action, sends are queued until the action completes)
04:15	al-maisan	Good morning
04:22	si14	Does Luke Vanderhart visit this room?
04:36	ro_st	si14: you can tweetle him at @levand
04:36	ro_st	sorry, @levanderhart
04:41	muhoo	i'm dealing with a function that runs (eval `(~stuff ~blah)) on things passed to it. so, i can't pass it anything defined with let, sadly. what are my options?
04:41	muhoo	i don't control that eval function btw, so i have to deal with it.
04:42	si14	ro_st: thanks
04:44	muhoo	i was thinking of fighting `s with `s, an doing some hacky (let [ugly (whatever)] `(do (def fubar# ~ugly) (call-thing-that-evals fubar#))) but that seems.... so veyr wrong to me
04:50	muhoo	or this atrocity: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2824
04:53	kima	I don't think you have much options ...
04:53	kima	Are you able to reimplement the functionality without using eval
04:54	muhoo	maybe, i'm just not sure how many breaking changes i want to introduce into someone else's library :-)
04:58	kima	maybe you could try to change the eval to contextual eval wich can take a map of local variables. You could make the context map an optional parameter of the function. Do you have a copy of the Joy of Clojure it's defined there
04:59	kima	so when called normal the function has the default behavior and when called with the context map extra parameter it works with let bindings
04:59	muhoo	i do, i'll look in there.
05:00	muhoo	still, maybe i'm chasing the wrong thing. the error is actually this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2825
05:00	kima	section 8.1
05:00	kima	for use case page 309-310
05:00	muhoo	no matching ctor. which is weird, because, it's a function that takes one arg, and it's being called as a function with one arg.
05:01	clgv	muhoo: code?
05:01	muhoo	good idea, let me narrow it down to the 3 lines that'll fail
05:03	muhoo	clgv: this is all that's required to make the fireworks happen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2826
05:03	fliebel	Raynes: ping
05:05	amalloy	i suppose custom-handler* is some silly macro?
05:06	clgv	amalloy: it's a defn
05:06	muhoo	it's actually a noir.core function.
05:06	muhoo	a defn, with eval
05:08	clgv	muhoo: does your (:list-url fsettings) evaluate to something like [:post "/login"] ?
05:08	muhoo	have a look
05:08	muhoo	it's in the refheap paste
05:09	muhoo	fails with just simple str "/urls" as well as [:post "/fuu/:id/routes/too"]
05:09	clojurebot	I don't understand.
05:09	clgv	muhoo: ah right - it does not
05:09	muhoo	it's the eval that's making my life complicated, but why, i'm still unsure
05:10	clgv	you can try: [:post (:list-url fsettings)] or :get or what you need ^^
05:10	muhoo	it's not that arg that's the assplosion. it's the second arg, the function
05:10	muhoo	by the way, if i move that out of a defn, it all works
05:11	amalloy	muhoo: just fyi, asplosion is a cutesy way to say explosion. assplosion is a cutesy way to say diarrhea
05:12	clgv	amalloy: rofl
05:12	muhoo	the stacktraces i got were more akin to an ass-plosion than an asplosion, it's true
05:12	ro_st	+1 for applying cutesy to diarrhea
05:13	clgv	muhoo: can you post the stacktrace from the minimal example?
05:13	muhoo	clgv: i think it's an inner-class thing in jvm maybe? https://www.refheap.com/paste/2827
05:13	muhoo	clgv: minimal stacktrace is more cutesy: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2828
05:15	clgv	muhoo: you could go through custom-handler* code to see what results you get in the single steps
05:15	muhoo	clgv: i did that
05:15	amalloy	muhoo: minimal repro case is basically (eval `(~(constantly 1) 10))
05:15	amalloy	you can't eval closures
05:15	muhoo	added printlns. everything checks out
05:15	muhoo	amalloy: that's the problem, yes
05:16	muhoo	hmm. wow. i guess i'm screwed thenn.
05:17	clgv	muhoo: you can create a patched implementation of custom-handler*, I guess
05:17	muhoo	i think that's the only option.
05:18	clgv	muhoo: do you know why an eval is needed there?
05:19	muhoo	the line is this: (eval `(~action ~url {params# :params} (~func params#)))
05:19	muhoo	and action is compojure.core/GET or POSt
05:19	muhoo	it's basically creating the route, then storing it in an atom.
05:20	muhoo	at page reloads, the routes and app are regenerated, makes for nice interactive development of the rails-y style
05:21	clgv	muhoo: ah, eval is for reloading so that the code in there is not compiled already.
05:22	clgv	muhoo: but if you create that handle via settings anyway you wont need that, right?
05:22	muhoo	what i'm trying to do is generate a whole bunch of pages dynamically
05:23	muhoo	from a defn. then the body of that defn calls noir to generate the routes and put them into the atom
05:23	Raynes	fliebel: pon
05:23	Raynes	h
05:23	Raynes	Jesus.
05:24	Raynes	fliebel: pong
05:25	fliebel	Raynes: How do I get lazybot in another channel? Can it tell it "go there", or do I need to run it on my won sever?
05:25	Raynes	You can do one of two things: 1) ask me to put him there (permanently) and I'll happily host him for you 2) run him yourself and deal with maintaining your own instance.
05:26	ro_st	how do i get paredit going in the slime-repl?
05:26	amalloy	Raynes: is lazybot still busted re: evaluating clojure?
05:26	Raynes	amalloy: define 'busted'
05:26	amalloy	&(inc 1)
05:26	lazybot	⇒ 2
05:26	fliebel	Raynes: Ok, do I owe you some project maintainance or cake? If you could add it to #hackerschool, that'd be grewat.
05:27	amalloy	&`inc
05:27	lazybot	⇒ clojure.core/inc
05:27	amalloy	hey, he's working!
05:27	amalloy	$login
05:27	lazybot	You've been logged in.
05:27	Raynes	amalloy: I didn't do anything to fix it. I restarted him but it was still broken.
05:27	amalloy	$join #hackerschool
05:27	Raynes	fliebel: You don't owe us anything. <3
05:27	fliebel	yay!
05:27	muhoo	it is kind of weird to hear a bot referred to as "him"
05:27	ro_st	can paredit work in the repl?
05:27	Raynes	amalloy: Can you add it to the channel list for me? I'm on my desktop and don't feel like getting sshed in and using emacs with this keyboard.
05:28	ro_st	i thought it was but it appears not
05:28	amalloy	fiiiine
05:28	fliebel	Raynes: I might write some plugins for it, regardless.
05:28	clgv	muhoo: I think you function only has to make sure that you assoc the needed data in both maps. so you can definitely write something like custom-handler* yourself
05:29	Raynes	fliebel: Great. You write 'em, I'll add 'em. :p
05:29	amalloy	fliebel: do you want channel logs?
05:30	Raynes	Goodnight pals.
05:30	Raynes	<3
05:30	muhoo	clgv: yep, that seems like a reasonable next thing to try.
05:30	fliebel	amalloy: erm, dunno, doesn't hurt I guess, havn't thought deeply about it.
05:30	fliebel	amalloy: But if you run out of space, feel free to scrap them :P
05:30	amalloy	$reload
05:30	lazybot	Reloaded successfully.
05:31	amalloy	he might or might not be logging now, but he should at least log next time we restart him
05:31	fliebel	there are quite a few people interrested in learning clojure at hackerschool :)
05:32	clgv	fliebel: what's hackerschool?
05:32	ro_st	good. the more, the merrier. clojure rocks
05:32	fliebel	$google hacker school
05:32	lazybot	[Hacker School] https://www.hackerschool.com/
05:41	michaelr`	what's a good function/macro to measure execution time?
05:41	amalloy	,(clojure.repl/apropos "time")
05:41	clojurebot	(time dotimes read-instant-timestamp parse-timestamp)
05:41	amalloy	,(doc time) ;; tada!
05:41	clojurebot	"([expr]); Evaluates expr and prints the time it took. Returns the value of expr."
05:42	michaelr`	&(time (count (range 1000)))
05:42	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
05:42	michaelr`	,(time (count (range 1000)))
05:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 7.161 msecs"
05:42	clojurebot	1000
05:43	michaelr`	how about printing a label
05:45	michaelr`	like (time "db fetch" (fetch-db db))
05:48	michaelr`	okay, i'll write my first clojure macro ever ;)
05:48	michaelr`	after this there will be no way to go back..
05:56	muhoo	clgv: aha, i see why he did it this way. there's a trap here.
05:57	muhoo	to call GET, you need to supply args. those need to be gensymed, and so you need syntax quoting, and then you're stuck evaling
05:58	muhoo	but, i think i can do it manually, bypassing most of this stuff
06:24	michaelr`	ooh performance optimization is so fun
06:27	clgv	muhoo: you dont need syntaxquoting for gensym. there is 'gensym ##(doc gensym)
06:27	lazybot	⇒ "([] [prefix-string]); Returns a new symbol with a unique name. If a prefix string is supplied, the name is prefix# where # is some unique number. If prefix is not supplied, the prefix is 'G__'."
06:30	muhoo	kima: i see, that contextual eval is pretty crazy. [k `'~v] , eh?
06:31	kima	it becomes clear after a bit thought and macroexpand :-)
08:03	kima	hi #clojure
08:32	lewang	hello all
08:33	gfredericks	this must be the sound of #clojure waking up in the morning
08:34	ordnungswidrig	it's midday over here. maybe everybody is on the plane to uk
08:35	foxdonut	(ns good.morning)
08:36	clgv	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
08:36	foxdonut	(let [your-day be-a-good-one] ..)
08:36	clgv	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: be-a-good-one in this context
08:57	Borkdude	is there a shortcut for (keep identity coll)?
09:02	lewang	Can anyone lend me a hand with swank-clojure and Emacs? It works, but I can't get meaningful stack traces.
09:03	foxdonut	Borkdude: doesn't seem like there is. (keep identity coll), (filter identity coll), (remove nil? coll), etc.
09:04	ordnungswidrig	(remove nil? coll) is the easiest to understand, IMHO.
09:07	hyPiRion	foxdonut: (filter identity coll)? ##(filter identity [true false nil 1])
09:07	lazybot	⇒ (true 1)
09:07	hyPiRion	&(keep identity [true false nil 1])
09:07	lazybot	⇒ (true false 1)
09:07	hyPiRion	It's subtle, isn't it.
09:08	michaelr`	ibdknox: ping
09:12	ro_st	what's a nifty way to get a subset of a map's data by keys?
09:13	ro_st	(gimme-a-map-with-just-these-keys-please source-map (:key1 :key2))
09:14	S11001001	,(doc select-keys)
09:14	clojurebot	"([map keyseq]); Returns a map containing only those entries in map whose key is in keys"
09:14	ro_st	i really should read through the api some time. thanks s11
09:14	foxdonut	hyPiRion: good point. I think (remove nil? coll) is most obvious at what it does.
09:15	hyPiRion	foxdonut: Yeah, it's more or less verbatim of how I would've described the function.
09:16	S11001001	ro_st: best check what happens when a key in keyseq isn't in your map, and make sure it's what you want
09:16	hyPiRion	If I were to describe it in a non-programming language.
09:16	ro_st	s11: thanks for the tip. in this case, the source map is sql data, so they'll always be there
09:17	ro_st	is there a clever way to select the current form so that i can copy it? emacs + paredit
09:18	ro_st	right now i'm ctrl-space, C-M-f, enter
09:18	hyPiRion	Current form?
09:19	ro_st	oui
09:19	ro_st	the form at the point: \|(my form) or (m\|y form)
09:19	hyPiRion	Ah.
09:20	hyPiRion	For the first one, I use C-<space> C-M-n
09:20	hyPiRion	C-M-p and C-M-n are good when you're at the start or end, but I'm an emacs newbie myself :)
09:22	S11001001	ro_st: I imagine killing the current form only would have a paredit-specific binding; try C-h m
09:23	vijaykiran	ro_st: C-k and C-_ should be the same
09:23	ro_st	?! now my repl says "Unable to resolve symbol: doc in this context"
09:23	ro_st	this is in slime
09:24	ro_st	i thought doc was one of them global ones?
09:24	vijaykiran	may be you should (use 'clojure.repl)
09:24	bobry	is it possible to initialize a record with a map? i.e. with keyword arguments instead of positional?
09:24	ro_st	ah. my slime repl doesn't seem to do that
09:25	hyPiRion	bobry: Is speed essential for you? If not, I'd try to replace the record with a map.
09:25	AWizzArd	bobry: in Clojure 1.4 you can you it with map->XYZ
09:25	AWizzArd	(defrecord Foo [a b]) (map->Foo {:b 2, :a 1})
09:26	AWizzArd	In earlier Clojure versions you could do (into (Foo. nil nil) {:b 2, :a 1})
09:26	AWizzArd	This is a bit unfortunate, as you first have to create a throw-away Foo instance.
09:26	hyPiRion	AWizzArd: are there any other functions defined at defrecord-time?
09:26	bobry	AWizzArd: thanks! 'map->*' is exactly what I was looking for
09:27	hyPiRion	Sounds practical.
09:28	clgv	hyPiRion: yes, (->Foo 10 20) as a kind of constructor as well
09:28	bhenry	is there a (clojure-version) equivalent for clojurescript?
09:29	hyPiRion	clgv: Fancy.
09:30	ro_st	there must be a way to have the slime repl run some code on startup ¿
09:30	ro_st	? too
09:30	matessim	Hey, i'm abit confused about lambda's vs fn's
09:30	matessim	if lambda's don't have explicit do's basically only the last form in the lambda will be evaluated?
09:31	dnolen	bhenry: that works in CLJS
09:31	bhenry	dnolen: i'll restart the repl. that throws me an error
09:32	matessim	What's wrong with this? => (#(println "a")(println "b"))
09:32	matessim	b
09:32	matessim	ArityException Wrong number of args (1) passed to: user$eval560$fn clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
09:33	dnolen	matessim: the anon fn takes no arguments
09:33	matessim	i didn't give it any arguements.
09:33	matessim	or did i somehow?
09:33	dnolen	matessim: you did.
09:33	ro_st	(println "b") is being passed as an arg to #(println "a")
09:33	foxdonut	the (println "b") is an argument
09:33	ro_st	#() is a function 'literal'
09:34	matessim	oh i'm missing a bunch of parenthesis
09:34	matessim	thanks
09:34	rhc	matessim: i think you want this: #(do (println "a") (println "b")) ?
09:34	matessim	I was trying to see the difference in anon vs fn myself(From what i understood, anon would print b and fn would print ab)
09:34	matessim	and yeah rhc
09:34	ro_st	is there a way to specify a clj script to run on startup of my slime repl?
09:35	dnolen	ro_st: probably, perhaps technomancy knows
09:35	matessim	Now i'm even more confused, whats wrong with this?
09:35	matessim	=> (#((println "a")(println "b")))
09:35	matessim	a
09:35	matessim	b
09:35	matessim	NullPointerException user/eval564/fn--565 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
09:35	vijaykiran	println returns nil
09:35	dnolen	matessim: you are calling nil as a function
09:35	vijaykiran	so you are truing to call (nil)
09:35	foxdonut	,(doall (map println ["a" "b"]))
09:35	clojurebot	a
09:35	clojurebot	b
09:35	rhc	matessim: break that down, its basically (#(nil nil))
09:35	clojurebot	(nil nil)
09:36	matessim	aha
09:36	matessim	if it was (#(nil)), would that be alright?
09:36	dnolen	,(macroexpand '#((println "a")(println "b")))
09:36	rhc	matessim: nope
09:36	clojurebot	(fn* [] ((println "a") (println "b")))
09:36	dnolen	matessim: ^
09:36	rhc	matessim: (nil) is just trying to call 'nil' which isnt a valid function
09:37	matessim	so isn't it mean its evaluating twice?
09:37	dnolen	,(macroexpand '#(do (println "a") (println "b")))
09:37	clojurebot	(fn* [] (do (println "a") (println "b")))
09:37	dnolen	,(#(nil))
09:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:38	dnolen	matessim: there's no implicit do when using #(...)
09:38	dnolen	,(#(do nil))
09:38	clojurebot	nil
09:38	matessim	but #(do(nil)) is still wrong, right? and println evaluates to nil
09:38	ro_st	matessim: the first symbol in a list is in function position, and clojure will attempt to call it as a function.. unless you quote the list '(nil 1 2 3)
09:39	rhc	matessim: yes, because (nil) is still trying to call nil
09:39	dnolen	matessim: (nil) will never work, nil is not a function
09:39	matessim	so i need to qoute the anonymous function?
09:39	matessim	'#(do(nil)) is fine?
09:40	dnolen	matessim: I think you stop a moment and think this through :)
09:40	vijaykiran	ro_st: I think you need :repl-init in your project.clj
09:40	matessim	dnolen, i'm just a bit confused, for example ,i'll want to print something with an anonymous function
09:40	dnolen	,(macroexpand '#(do (nil)))
09:40	clojurebot	(fn* [] (do (nil)))
09:41	dnolen	matessim: figure what is wrong with ^
09:41	rhc	matessim: read the first chapter of this book: http://cdn.oreilly.com/oreilly/booksamplers/9781449394707_sampler.pdf
09:41	matessim	i'm reading
09:41	matessim	Programming Clojure
09:41	dnolen	matessim: and you'll understand why none of your ideas so far work.
09:41	matessim	just got it yesterday
09:41	matessim	dnolen, i understand, the macro is expanded, but the whole thing is a string
09:41	rhc	oh ok, perfect. the first chapter should help a lot
09:41	matessim	that's not being evaluated
09:41	matessim	because of the '
09:42	ro_st	vijaykiran: ah, that sounds promising! does slime/swank respect it?
09:42	rhc	matessim: its not exactly "just a string"
09:42	rhc	for example, you can't do '([)
09:42	dnolen	matessim: sorry didn't mean to confuse. the macroexpand was just an illustration of what you're code actually will get compiled as.
09:43	dnolen	your
09:43	rhc	its still parsing it, just not evaluating '(a b c) as "call a with b c"
09:43	matessim	okay rhc, and i think i understand a bit better
09:43	foxdonut	dnolen: +1.. trying to grasp too many concepts at once
09:43	vijaykiran	ro_st: I'm guessing - it will - I didn't try it though
09:43	matessim	extra question, what's the green text in the REPL? i understand black is stdout
09:44	matessim	but when i do (do #(println "x"))
09:44	matessim	it does x in black, and nil in green.
09:44	vijaykiran	the return value of the function
09:44	vijaykiran	every function must return a value - in this case println returns nil
09:45	matessim	thanks.
09:45	rhc	and do returns the return value of the last argument
09:46	bhenry	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/25cdcee02bb03d506f70
09:48	matessim	the only difference between letn and fn is the namespace binding?
09:49	matessim	defn*
09:49	matessim	not letn
09:50	vijaykiran	,(macroexpand '(defn x [] (y)))
09:50	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
09:51	bhenry	matessim: (defn x [] …) is just a shortcut for (def x (fn [] …))
09:51	vijaykiran	&(macroexpand '(defn x [] (y)))
09:51	lazybot	⇒ (def x (clojure.core/fn ([] (y))))
09:51	S11001001	matessim: defn has lots more sugar too
09:51	matessim	right, thanks again
09:51	clgv	&(macroexpand '(clojure.core/fn ([] (y))))
09:51	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([] (y)))
09:52	vijaykiran	matessim: if you are feeling adventurous, try (source defn) :)
09:52	matessim	wow thats awesome vijaykiran, had no idea you can do that :P
09:53	matessim	how can i pull the metadata? (preferably by key?)
09:53	matessim	the ^[:doc stuff.
09:54	ro_st	(meta thing)
09:54	matessim	ty
09:54	Bronsa	,(meta #'first)
09:54	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name first, :arglists ([coll]), :added "1.0", :static true, ...}
09:54	Bronsa	,(:doc (meta #'first))
09:54	clojurebot	"Returns the first item in the collection. Calls seq on its\n argument. If coll is nil, returns nil."
09:54	clgv	,(doc first)
09:54	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the first item in the collection. Calls seq on its argument. If coll is nil, returns nil."
09:55	matessim	Bronsa, why is the #' in the meta tag?(I sort of understand the ' but not the #)
09:55	Bronsa	#' is reader macro for var
09:55	Bronsa	,(:doc (meta (var first)))
09:55	clojurebot	"Returns the first item in the collection. Calls seq on its\n argument. If coll is nil, returns nil."
09:56	Bronsa	the metadata is attached to the Var `first` not to the symbol
09:57	matessim	i see, thanks
09:57	Bronsa	so, #' is not related to '
09:58	Borkdude	,#'+
09:58	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
09:58	Borkdude	,'+
09:58	clojurebot	+
09:58	Bronsa	,'#'+
09:58	clojurebot	(var +)
09:59	Borkdude	,'#
09:59	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading character>
09:59	Bronsa	'nception
09:59	Borkdude	,#"+"
09:59	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Dangling meta character '+' near index 0
09:59	clojurebot	+
09:59	clojurebot	^>
09:59	matessim	Q_Q
10:00	Borkdude	, #" "
10:00	clojurebot	#" "
10:00	Borkdude	,#(+ % %1)
10:00	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval304$fn__305 sandbox$eval304$fn__305@e2be94>
10:01	Borkdude	,`(let [+# -] (+# 1 2 3))
10:01	matessim	,(#(+ % %1) 1)
10:01	clojurebot	2
10:01	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [+__27__auto__ clojure.core/-] (+__27__auto__ 1 2 3))
10:01	Borkdude	,#{1 2 3}
10:01	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
10:02	Borkdude	,(contains? #{1 2 3} 1)
10:02	clojurebot	true
10:02	Borkdude	have we covered every use of # now?
10:03	Borkdude	,#_(eval '(+ 1 2 3))
10:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:03	Borkdude	,#_1
10:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:03	Borkdude	,
10:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:04	bhenry	,#_ 1 2
10:04	clojurebot	2
10:06	gtuckerkellogg	i'm feeling pretty stupid, but there's something I don't understand about "="
10:06	Borkdude	maybe reader literals, but I can't show it here
10:06	gtuckerkellogg	I had thought all of these comparisons would be true
10:07	gtuckerkellogg	http://pastebin.com/ndfUJtQg
10:08	Borkdude	,(= {:a 1, :b 2} {:a 1, :b 2})
10:08	clojurebot	true
10:09	Borkdude	,(= {:a #" ", :b 2} {:a #" ", :b 2})
10:09	clojurebot	false
10:09	Borkdude	gtuckerkellogg: I guess it has to do with how equals is defined on regexes
10:09	gtuckerkellogg	oh!
10:09	gtuckerkellogg	why?
10:09	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
10:10	Borkdude	,(type #" ")
10:10	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
10:10	gtuckerkellogg	,(doc =)
10:10	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
10:10	Borkdude	,(resolve 'javadoc)
10:10	clojurebot	nil
10:11	Bronsa	,(= #"" #"")
10:11	clojurebot	false
10:11	Borkdude	gtuckerkellogg: regexes are never equal except when they are the same object
10:12	gtuckerkellogg	hmm
10:12	Bronsa	,(hash #"")
10:12	clojurebot	28127006
10:12	Bronsa	,(hash #"")
10:12	clojurebot	31360080
10:12	gtuckerkellogg	aha
10:12	Borkdude	gtuckerkellogg: i.e., they don't define equality, the equals method is inherited from Object
10:12	gtuckerkellogg	i see
10:12	vijaykiran	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10055034/java-comparing-two-pattern-objects
10:14	gtuckerkellogg	ok, that's very helpful. thanks Borkdude, Bronsa, and vijaykiran
10:14	ro_st	is there a shortcut in emacs to select the symbol under the current point?
10:14	Bronsa	i guess it would be convenient if for patterns `=` compared their .toString
10:14	ro_st	paredit's cheatsheet doesn't show anything for selection
10:14	gtuckerkellogg	Bronsa, it sure would!
10:15	gtuckerkellogg	ro_st, you might get an answer here, but have you checked the #emacs channel?
10:15	ro_st	what? this isn't #emacs-incognito? :-)
10:22	S11001001	ro_st: you will have better luck if you use emacs lingo for such things rather than some other UI's lingo :)
10:23	ro_st	so i have this form (convert-resource-media r). cursor is somewhere in the function element. i want to select the first element of the list. surely there's a quick way to do that?
10:23	ro_st	eclipse ccw has a gesture for this, i think
10:24	vijaykiran	ro_st: I'm sure #emacs guys will point you to : http://emacswiki.org/emacs/MarkCommands#toc6 :)
10:24	ro_st	thank you :)
10:24	ro_st	i'll stop pestering you guys with emacs questions
10:25	vijaykiran	but M-x mark-word seems to work fine, just bind it to whatever keycombi you like
10:25	ro_st	M-@ :-)
10:26	ro_st	whoever made emacs show you the bound keybindings when you use M-x (command) is a bloody genius
10:28	TimMc	Yay for discoverable interfaces!
10:31	ro_st	yay indeed
10:32	clgv	TimMc: ?
10:33	vijaykiran	so how many of you guys here will be in-person at EuroClojure ?
10:35	Borkdude	vijaykiran: are you going?
10:35	vijaykiran	yeah, I'll be there
10:36	Borkdude	what is the official hashtag for euroclojure? #euroconj ?
10:36	vijaykiran	I guess https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23euroclojure
10:36	vijaykiran	oops #euroclojure
10:37	gfredericks	futures always spawn new threads??
10:37	lazybot	gfredericks: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
10:37	TimMc	clgv: My name for user interfaces that allow you discover new ways of using them, unobtrusively.
10:38	clgv	TimMc: ah kk
10:38	TimMc	clgv: Similarly, having keyboard shortcuts next to items in a drop-down menu.
10:38	clgv	gfredericks: they use an executorservice
10:38	matessim	what happens if i have a java object with a void method by the name a and a public variable a(not static), what will i get when i do (.a instanceName)
10:38	Borkdude	TimMc: clgv or help -> search (in menu items) in OSX
10:38	matessim	not void, no args i meant
10:39	TimMc	Or especially having commands grouped into menus in the first place! You can find new commands by accident.
10:39	matessim	public class A{public int x; public A(){...) public int x()}
10:40	matessim	doing in clojure (.x instanceOfA) would give me what?
10:40	gfredericks	clgv: I could have sworn that was true but my coworker just made a jackload of futures which created a jackload of threads
10:40	gfredericks	and eventually crashed the jvm for having too many threads
10:40	gfredericks	I think
10:40	TimMc	matessim: I was wondering about that when I was writing an interop lib! I think the official answer is "Don't do that!" :-/
10:40	matessim	TimMc, so its a undocumented implementation detail? i'll check later though, but that sounds like sound advice :P
10:40	clgv	gfredericks: humm I hope I didnt confuse it with pmap. I'll check
10:40	TimMc	matessim: (. instanceOfA (x)) should be unambiguous for the nullary method, though.
10:41	TimMc	so maybe fields are checked first?
10:41	matessim	why? the book i have says the unsugared syntax for both is the same(fields and methods)
10:41	matessim	both the sugared and unsugared is the same for fields and no-arg methods
10:42	clgv	gfredericks: yes it is an executor service - this one: Executors.newCachedThreadPool();
10:42	clgv	gfredericks: it's probably not limited like the FixedThreadPool
10:44	gfredericks	hrm
10:44	clgv	I had issue with future myself when using it for blocking shell calls
10:45	TimMc	&(. "foo" (toString))
10:45	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
10:45	TimMc	&(. "foo" toString)
10:45	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
10:45	TimMc	matessim: ^
10:46	matessim	err. what?
10:46	matessim	why would it return anything else?
10:46	matessim	As far as i'm aware the String type has no public toString field
10:46	matessim	&(.toString "foo")
10:46	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
10:46	gfredericks	clgv: yeah I just created 10000 sleepy threads and it stayed up. I will ridicule coworker.
10:47	TimMc	Right... just demo'ing the two .-forms of method calling
10:47	matessim	those aren't the two forms though (what you wrote is the same)
10:47	TimMc	matessim: Count the parens.
10:47	matessim	just with a extra parenthesis...
10:47	matessim	aren't the two forms
10:47	TimMc	...
10:47	matessim	:
10:47	matessim	aren't the two forms these?:
10:47	matessim	&(.toString "Foo")
10:47	lazybot	⇒ "Foo"
10:48	matessim	&(. "Foo" toString
10:48	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
10:48	matessim	&(. "Foo" toString)
10:48	lazybot	⇒ "Foo"
10:48	TimMc	Parens are never "extra" in a Lisp.
10:48	matessim	&(. "Foo" (((toString))))
10:48	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed member expression
10:48	matessim	hmm
10:48	matessim	what do those extra parenthesis do there then?
10:48	matessim	between the forms you posted.
10:48	TimMc	THey say, "this is explcitily a method".
10:49	matessim	oh, okay.
10:50	TimMc	Unfortunately, CLojure doesn't actually have a specification. You'd have to make a class and see what happens.
10:50	matessim	pr = clojure wrapper for println?
10:50	TimMc	pr = print read'ably
10:50	matessim	TimMc, is that something on purpose or just lack of people documenting?
10:50	TimMc	Not sure.
10:51	TimMc	matessim: pr is (mostly) the inverse of read (or pr-str vs. read-string)
10:51	matessim	okay, so its basically for "dynamic code"(Code that creates extra code?)
10:51	matessim	or w/e the terminology is
10:52	zakwilson	No.
10:52	zakwilson	Parens usually indicate that the first thing in them is callable - a function, special form, macro, etc...
10:53	zakwilson	Or were you asking about pr?
10:53	matessim	zakwilson i understand that...
10:53	matessim	yeah
10:53	matessim	:)
10:53	vijaykiran	" By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects
10:53	vijaykiran	can be read by the reader"
10:54	zakwilson	That's generally for serialization. It would be unusual to pr something then run it as code.
10:54	TimMc	matessim: pr-str and read-string are for reading and serializing data objects.
10:54	matessim	Okay, makes sense :).
10:55	TimMc	matessim: Great for config files. Just read the doc for read-eval if you read user-controlled data!
10:55	matessim	what are "things" that are in between asterisks btw?
10:55	TimMc	&(doc read-eval)
10:55	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! read-eval is bad!
10:55	matessim	i saw it with ns
10:56	zakwilson	For runtime code generation, eval takes lists, not strings.
10:56	TimMc	matessim: They're part of the symbol. It's a convention for naming dynamic vars.
10:56	matessim	the bot doesn't want us to use read eval? :P
10:57	TimMc	,(doc read-eval) ;; let's try a less secure bot
10:57	clojurebot	"; When set to logical false, the EvalReader (#=(...)) is disabled in the read/load in the thread-local binding. Example: (binding [read-eval false] (read-string \"#=(eval (def x 3))\")) Defaults to true"
10:57	zakwilson	I can't imagine why the bot wouldn't want us to poke at something like that.
10:58	ibdknox	Would anyone like lots of karma on HN? :)
10:58	ibdknox	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/05/21/the-future-is-specific/
10:58	ibdknox	second Light Table demo ^
10:59	zakwilson	Can I buy things with it?
10:59	matessim	ibdknox I found out about Clojure because of your kickstarter, i was like "What is this awesome language" when i saw the demo
11:00	matessim	i ordered Programming Clojure the same day :P
11:00	ibdknox	haha
11:00	ibdknox	cool :)
11:00	zakwilson	The rest of you have about a minute before I take that karma.
11:01	ibdknox	zakwilson: someone beat you to it
11:01	Borkdude	this dude already did it: http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=olauzon
11:01	zakwilson	ibdknox: how did that prototype idea work out for you? I was considering doing something similar.
11:01	olauzon	just managed to slip in
11:01	zakwilson	Good. I have enough karma.
11:01	Borkdude	haha
11:01	Borkdude	I don't care about karma
11:01	ibdknox	zakwilson: there was lots of interest, but the projects were depressing
11:02	zakwilson	I don't mind depressing projects right now. I like money.
11:03	ibdknox	one of them was an airbnb for bicycles :(
11:03	ibdknox	most of the people really need help at the idea phase
11:03	ibdknox	which I could've done
11:03	ibdknox	but is harder to sell
11:04	zakwilson	http://renthubnyc.com/ <-- airbnb for arbitrary stuff
11:04	ibdknox	hah
11:04	ibdknox	no I mean this guy ripped it off
11:04	ibdknox	his example used the same font faces
11:04	ibdknox	the same design entirely
11:04	lucian	python mode for lighttable yay
11:05	ibdknox	lucian: well, an example of one :)
11:06	zakwilson	I'd tell a client it's not a good idea to copy a design that closely. Still, if somebody has a bad idea and wants to pay me to build it, I'm not about to refuse.
11:08	Borkdude	ibdknox: nice video
11:09	ibdknox	thanks :)
11:11	zakwilson	Your video is too popular. It's buffering slowly.
11:12	foxdonut	it's about 14MB in HD
11:13	ibdknox	I'm waiting for the "Y U NO USE DJANGO?"
11:14	Borkdude	ibdknox: why you not use clojure-py :P
11:14	lucian	ibdknox: sure, but i still think it's nice that it's being considered
11:14	zakwilson	I'm guessing because it's a hammer and you weren't driving a nail.
11:16	ibdknox	here's a youtube link for the slowness
11:16	ibdknox	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osLReQSB9F0
11:18	zakwilson	Just in time for it to finish buffering!
11:20	RickInGA	ibdknox: new light table post/video is amazing
11:20	TimMc	Oh, and posted to reddit as well: http://www.reddit.com/s/http%3A//www.chris-granger.com/2012/05/21/the-future-is-specific/
11:26	zakwilson	ibdknox: The future of tools? It's the past too - seems to me Emacs had the same idea of being easy to adapt to the problem at hand. I could see something like this replacing Emacs for me, and that's huge.
11:27	ibdknox	zakwilson: totally, I've been thinking about having something like a major and minor modes distinction :)
11:28	gtrak	I'd rather invest my tool-molding learning into something smaller and more modern than emacs, ibdknox is LT scriptable with clojure?
11:28	ibdknox	it's Clojure + ClojureScript
11:28	ibdknox	+ whatever language back end you use
11:28	gtrak	awesome
11:30	gtrak	yea, a scriptable JVM-based editor with a browser UI sounds excellent
11:32	Wild_Cat	I'm not so hot about the browser UI TBH
11:32	zakwilson	A lot of what I'm seeing there reminds me of Slime. I don't understand why that sort of thing isn't already more popular for other dynamic languages.
11:32	Wild_Cat	...then again I used to say that about email clients too, so who knows.
11:32	ro_st	is there a method that returns true if all the elements in the coll are truthy?
11:32	zakwilson	Why are we still running those in batch mode most of the time instead of having the editor talk to a running program?
11:34	ro_st	sorry, not a method, a function :)
11:35	vijaykiran	(every? true? '(blah))
11:35	ro_st	gah. of course.
11:35	TimMc	vijaykiran: Not quite.
11:36	TimMc	&(map true? [1 true false nil])
11:36	lazybot	⇒ (false true false false)
11:36	foxdonut	,(true? 42)
11:36	clojurebot	false
11:36	TimMc	ro_st: You can use identity instead of true? there.
11:36	ro_st	actually, i want to assert whether 3 particular keys in a map are nil or not
11:36	TimMc	Specifically non-nil?
11:37	ro_st	so i'm using (select-keys) to restrict to those 3, and now i want a yes/no on all not nil or not
11:37	foxdonut	&(every? identity [1 true false nil])
11:37	lazybot	⇒ false
11:37	foxdonut	&(every? identity [1 true false])
11:37	lazybot	⇒ false
11:37	TimMc	ro_st: Instead of select-keys, you can also use juxt. :-)
11:37	TimMc	&((juxt :a :b :c) {:a 4 :b 5 :c 6 :d 7})
11:37	lazybot	⇒ [4 5 6]
11:37	foxdonut	&(every? (complement nil?) [1 true false])
11:37	lazybot	⇒ true
11:38	ro_st	ah that's even better!
11:40	metellus	&(every? (not nil?) [1 true false])
11:40	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
11:40	metellus	that explains that
11:40	ro_st	complement is like ! from javascript?
11:41	S11001001	no
11:41	metellus	&(doc complement)
11:41	lazybot	⇒ "([f]); Takes a fn f and returns a fn that takes the same arguments as f, has the same effects, if any, and returns the opposite truth value."
11:41	timvisher	anyone know why clojure.java.shell would find an executable specified later in PATH when it had the opportunity to find the same executable name earlier in PATH?
11:42	foxdonut	&(not (some nil? [1 true false nil]))
11:42	lazybot	⇒ false
11:42	TimMc	ro_st: It's a higher-order function. ! is like not.
11:42	pandeiro	anybody use clojurescript on a low powered processor (like atom, athlon)?
11:42	foxdonut	&(not (some nil? [1 true false]))
11:42	lazybot	⇒ true
11:42	pandeiro	the compile times i'm getting with lein cljsbuild + cljs 1236 are painful
11:42	TimMc	$inc foxdonut
11:42	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:42	pandeiro	like one minute to compile a 10 line cljs file
11:42	foxdonut	ro_st: that's another option according to your taste.
11:43	TimMc	That's an application of De Morgan's law, right?
11:43	ro_st	thanks fox
11:43	foxdonut	welcome
11:46	foxdonut	$inc TimMc
11:46	lazybot	⇒ 6
11:47	TimMc	heh
11:47	S11001001	pandeiro: have used plain clojure on atom, seems fine
11:47	ro_st	((juxt :triple_namespace :triple_key :triple_value) %)
11:47	dnolen	raph_amiard: ping
11:48	ro_st	"java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"
11:48	ro_st	why?!
11:48	ro_st	% here is a map
11:48	TimMc	TOo many parens somewhere?
11:48	S11001001	fun fact: juxt is lifting vector into the reader monad
11:49	TimMc	I'll take it on faith that that was English.
11:50	foxdonut	lol
11:50	ro_st	one day i'll learn what a monad is
11:51	timvisher	`(System/getenv "PATH")` returns the right thing
11:51	S11001001	and comp is just a less-powerful version of map :)
11:51	foxdonut	,((juxt :a :b :c) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 42})
11:51	clojurebot	[1 2 42]
11:51	timvisher	is there another place that Runtime.exec looks for executables that supersedes PATH?
11:52	pandeiro	S11001001: yeah clojure is fine, but lein-cljsbuild is taking eons... dunno wats up
11:52	ro_st	https://gist.github.com/2769905
11:52	TimMc	timvisher: Are you in Cygwin by any chance?
11:52	pandeiro	ibdknox: f'ing awesome, haven't even watched the demo but i loved the writeup.. esp. about routes being the logical unit, context switching etc
11:52	ro_st	so i'm trying to either just grab :name, or :triple_* if those aren't nil
11:52	TimMc	Although someone was experiencing some PATH weirdness in SLIME or something the other day.
11:53	timvisher	TimMc: windows
11:53	timvisher	in cmd
11:53	timvisher	from within emacs
11:53	TimMc	Maybe it was you!
11:53	foxdonut	ro_st: you have extra parens #(if ((
11:53	timvisher	I believe it was ;)
11:53	ro_st	foxdonut: thank you. was killing me
11:54	timvisher	interestingly, I was experiencing the same thing from a cmd shell _but_ if I cd out of the default directory (`c:\windows\system32`) then it does find the correct path
11:54	foxdonut	ro_st: welcome
11:54	timvisher	which leads me to believe that windows somehow honors `.` before anything, even if it's not in PATH
11:54	ro_st	man, i'm really digging this language
11:54	TimMc	timvisher: Oh god...
11:54	TimMc	You might be right.
11:55	ro_st	makes me think hard. i've spent all day writing code and i'm at 83 lines of code, and i'm mentally exhausted!
11:55	timvisher	even stranger, perhaps is that `(sh "pwd")` does not tell me that i'm in that default directory
11:55	timvisher	ro_st: eventually you want that amount of effort to stop, probably ;)
11:55	timvisher	unless you're doing something that is inherently very hard. lol
11:55	gtrak	ro_st: I found that density terrifying initally, but then I started thinking about how much code I would have written in java for the same thing, and felt better
11:55	foxdonut	ro_st: I've lost 15 pounds by sheer mental exercise ;)
11:56	ro_st	yes, naturally. but it's been a long time that i've been so nicely challenged
11:56	timvisher	where are you coming from?
11:56	ro_st	i'm only about a week and a half into clojure
11:56	timvisher	java?
11:56	clojurebot	☕
11:56	ro_st	oh, all the usual imperative stuff. ruby, javascript, php, actionscript in no particular order
11:56	timvisher	yeah, it'll probably take you awhile to get used to clojure then. :)
11:57	timvisher	well worth it, though, imo
11:57	ro_st	absolutely!
11:57	TimMc	JS really helped me learn Scheme, though.
11:57	timvisher	you know that is true
11:57	ro_st	its not just learning clojure. it's also learning emacs
11:57	timvisher	i always forget how functional javascript can be
11:57	TimMc	just insofar as callbacks
11:57	timvisher	most people don't teach it that way but it can be done
11:57	timvisher	ro_st: double whammy
11:58	timvisher	what are you doing to learn emacs?
11:58	gtrak	underscore.js looks pretty good actually
11:58	ro_st	timvisher: deep end
11:58	foxdonut	to me a hurdle was to "unlearn" the solutions I'm used to from OO for which FP has different (usually better) solutions
11:58	ro_st	pestering folks on here, mostly :)
11:58	TimMc	ro_st: Oof. I failed to learn either when I tried to learn both at the same time. If you can, do one at a time.
11:58	timvisher	lol
11:58	timvisher	it may sound crazy to you but _read the manual_
11:59	timvisher	it's an astonishingly good resource
11:59	ro_st	i have several post-its on my monitor with swank and paredit shortcuts
11:59	ro_st	already internalised enough to get around without swearing in the high decibels
11:59	ro_st	main thing is the core text editing stuff. once that's natural, the rest is jam
12:00	foxdonut	emacs is not something I've gone back to though. I'm staying with vim. One less problem to solve.
12:00	ro_st	i come from windows text editing
12:00	vijaykiran	ro_st: http://shop.fsf.org/product/gnu-emacs-reference-mugs/ :)
12:00	ro_st	so it's been particularly .. fun
12:00	timvisher	if you go on an emacs binge, i highly recomend https://peepcode.com/products/meet-emacs and http://vimeo.com/channels/222837
12:00	timvisher	pardon the self-promotion, of course. ^_^
12:00	ro_st	i want maximum productivity in the long term
12:00	timvisher	foxdonut: i hear that paredit is getting ported to vim, is that true?
12:00	ldopa	ro_st: ms text editing ... you mean like word?
12:00	lucian	i've used emacs + evil for a few months, it was ok
12:00	ro_st	i tried ccw, sublime text 2, intellij + la clojure
12:00	ro_st	all subpar
12:01	foxdonut	timvisher: I dunno.. I use vimclojure and surround, works well..
12:01	ro_st	ldopa: no, using ctrl left right to move between words and variants thereof
12:01	timvisher	gotcha
12:01	ldopa	ro_st: sorry, bad joke ;)
12:01	timvisher	paredit was pretty life-changing. miss it in every language that i'm in, even the ones that don't have the revealed ast
12:01	ro_st	timvisher: i already have the peepcast. reeeaally helpful
12:02	ro_st	i'll check the vimeo stuff out. it's on the list along with disclojure and all the itunes clojure podcast material
12:02	ro_st	and joy of clojure, of course
12:03	ro_st	to think i was going to commit our company to using rails -shudder-
12:03	timvisher	for my next revelation, `(sh "which" "convert")` … returns the right thing
12:03	zakwilson	Paredit is pretty useful, though I find Slime to be the best thing about Emacs. It's like LightTable, kindasortaalmost.
12:03	timvisher	joy of clojure is awesome
12:03	banseljaj	Hello everyone. :)
12:04	timvisher	zakwilson: i'll agree with you there. the slime video was one of the 2 things that brought me back to to emacs about 5 years ago
12:04	ro_st	i still maintain a php codebase, and i'm still actively developing a google-closure javascript app. going to find ways to emacsify those asap
12:04	zakwilson	I kind of like Rails for quick one-off projects. I don't think I'd want to run a big project on it long-term; it's not simple - there's a lot of complecting.
12:05	ro_st	already using magit in emacs as well. feels completely natural
12:05	mprentice	magit is pretty great
12:05	foxdonut	just watched a quick video to see what paredit's about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiwEm88xaxM
12:06	foxdonut	it's funny, the guy is almost whispering and rushing/talking fast, so it sounds like he's recording the demo on someone else's computer that he's not supposed to be using :D
12:06	mprentice	i remapped paredit to make more sense to me. { } to spit back and forward respectively, ( ) to gobble same
12:06	RickInGA	thanks guys for all these good emacs links.
12:06	ro_st	foxdonut: how do i get that completion?!
12:06	ro_st	the popup showing the possible symbols to complete to
12:07	vijaykiran	M-Tab
12:07	foxdonut	:)
12:07	ro_st	i have completion, i don't have the displayed list
12:07	ro_st	not like he does there
12:08	ro_st	i get it in a separate buffer - one of my pending annoyances to fix
12:08	timvisher	ro_st: i'm pretty sure that'd be icicles mode
12:08	vijaykiran	ro_st: you mean something like this: https://github.com/overtone/live-coding-emacs
12:08	ro_st	-beam-
12:08	ro_st	i love open source
12:09	timvisher	looks like it's time to get off of imagemagick and move to pure java
12:09	TimMc	timvisher: Just because of path? :-(
12:09	ro_st	ok, i have to unplug. upvotes, everyone! later
12:10	timvisher	TimMc: I've been looking at this on and off for the past week and really haven't gotten any leads
12:10	timvisher	works great on my mac
12:10	timvisher	it's my windows machine that screws up
12:10	TimMc	timvisher: `which convert` gets you the absolute path though, right?
12:11	TimMc	Also, is there a shell=true thing to explore?
12:15	timvisher	TimMc: in cmd: c:\windows\system32>which convert => c:\windows\system32\convert.exe
12:16	timvisher	cmd: c:\windows>which convert => c:\...ImageMagick...\convert.exe
12:16	timvisher	in clojure i can only get which to report the imagemagick path
12:16	timvisher	and i can only appear to find the convert path when executing as the firstargument
12:16	timvisher	first argument*
12:17	timvisher	and `pwd` reports the directory i ran lein from
12:17	timvisher	^_^
12:17	timvisher	and opening a new CMD shell automatically starts in c:\windows\system32
12:21	nDuff	...so, the JVM doesn't actually have a mechanism to change the current working directory, but you can select one for your subprocess to run in
12:22	timvisher	nDuff: i'm aware of that, but i don't actually want to change my working directory
12:22	timvisher	unless my working directory turns out to be c:/windows/system32
12:22	timvisher	in which case i might care very much to change out of that ;)
12:23	dnolen	dherman: ping
12:23	dherman	pong
12:23	timvisher	basically, i'm experiencing a strange issue where java is electing an executable found later in my PATH over one that appears earlier in my PATH
12:23	TimMc	timvisher: Change out of the default, run which, then you have the correct path, right?
12:23	dnolen	dherman: so was there ever any ES discussion about ctors with only final fields?
12:23	TimMc	(I'm in problem-solving mode, not debugging mode.)
12:24	TimMc	Then you can use the absolute path in future shell-outs.
12:24	dherman	dnolen: saw your tweet... not quite sure what you mean by "final" here
12:24	dherman	can't be shadowed by prototype extension?
12:24	dherman	immutable?
12:24	dnolen	dherman: property which can only be set in the cnostructur and never again.
12:24	timvisher	I believe I could chop off the end of :out and that should give me the full path to convert
12:24	dnolen	oops ctor
12:26	timvisher	(sh (.trim (:out (sh "which" "convert")))) seems to be a fairly interesting option
12:26	timvisher	although i'd still love understanding exactly what is happening here
12:27	LeNsTR	https://github.com/liebke/avout
12:27	LeNsTR	> Latest commit to the master branch \| liebke authored 4 months ago
12:27	LeNsTR	is it alive?
12:28	Bronsa	maybe it got stable enough?
12:28	dnolen	dherman: it seems to me that such a facility would be far more useful then Object.freeze which is broken really. You want your instance to immutable at the time of construction.
12:29	dnolen	dherman: then you could safely pass that instance to a Worker - no copying.
12:29	LeNsTR	latest version "0.5.3"
12:29	LeNsTR	not sure
12:30	dnolen	dherman: I note that Dart has final fields - I suspect over time they'll be able to really run with that.
12:31	dherman	dnolen: what you're talking about is not much different from freeze, in the sense that it's not immutable at time of construction; it's immutable after an arbitrarily long period of computation
12:32	dnolen	dherman: it's very different. freeze encourages leaking
12:32	gfredericks	is (def ^:private foo ...) not how to create a private var...?
12:32	S11001001	no, it is
12:32	TimMc	dnolen: Can you call freeze at the end of the constructor?
12:32	gfredericks	S11001001: it behaves differently from (defn- ...)
12:32	dnolen	TimMc: still encourages leaking
12:32	gfredericks	specifically it gives :tag :private rather than :private true
12:32	gfredericks	and ns-publics doesn't respect :tag :private
12:32	dnolen	TimMc: dherman: Java Concurrency in Practice covers this stuff.
12:33	S11001001	what cloj version?
12:33	gfredericks	oh 1.2 ew
12:34	gfredericks	that's what I get for using `lein repl` outside a project
12:34	dnolen	var o = ctor(); concurrentProcess(o); will always work with final fields
12:34	dnolen	var o = ctor(); concurrenctProcess(o); Object.freeze(o);
12:34	dnolen	BOOM
12:34	hc	hi
12:35	TimMc	dnolen: No, I mean effectively Object.freeze(this) inside the constructor.
12:35	dnolen	TimMc: won't work
12:35	dnolen	function ctor(...) { concurrentProcess(this); Object.freeze(this); }
12:35	dnolen	BOOM
12:36	dnolen	TimMc: the whole reason why deftype and defrecord ctors work the way they do, they eliminate that stuff.
12:37	dnolen	they're even better since you can put executable stuff in/around field assignments
12:37	dnolen	cannot I mean
12:38	TimMc	OK, I guess I'm confused about what concurrentProcess is doing. Setting timeouts that further whack on o?
12:38	TimMc	err, "this"?
12:38	dnolen	TimMc: possibly attempting mutating fields
12:39	dnolen	attempting to mutate I mean.
12:40	dnolen	dherman: I actually don't see how any of Niko Matsakis Parallel JS could ever really work w/o something like this.
12:42	dherman	sorry, back. reading backscroll
12:43	dherman	dnolen: what you're talking about has the exact same problem
12:43	dnolen	dherman: it does not
12:43	dherman	function C() { concurrentProcess(this); this.foo = 12 }
12:43	dherman	BOOM
12:43	dnolen	dherman: only field assignment
12:43	dnolen	in ctor
12:44	dnolen	dherman: better if it's just implicit, like a tuple type.
12:44	dherman	dnolen: ok, so yeah, with sufficient restrictions you can have something that is immutable on construction
12:44	dherman	there are many options in the design space
12:44	dnolen	dherman: Type(a, b c). No executable body.
12:44	dherman	and yes, we have talked about that kind of thing, though not exactly as you're describing it
12:45	dherman	but, PJS does not need any of that
12:45	dherman	PJS is a very different approach
12:45	dnolen	dherman: I recall Niko saying he didn't have a solution for sharing data at all.
12:45	dherman	he would not have said that :)
12:45	dherman	given that PJS is all about sharing data
12:46	dherman	PJS is a dynamic approach to enforcing no shared writes -- basically, write barriers
12:46	dherman	dynamically guard against writing to shared data
12:46	dherman	so reads are cheap
12:46	dherman	and writes are fail-fast
12:47	dnolen	dherman: so the runtime checks are really that small?
12:47	dherman	we don't know yet, 's why it's research :)
12:47	dherman	but our memory architecture is a pretty nice fit for it
12:48	dherman	we have memory "compartments" that have mechanisms for installing automatic proxies between one another
12:48	dherman	we have an intern just starting this week to work on implementation
12:48	dherman	so we'll see how it goes
12:48	dherman	note that reads are cheap, though
12:49	dherman	they don't require any guards
12:49	dnolen	dherman: gotcha. Though it seems you could just avoid research and provide immutable non-executable ctors :) but that does sound interesting.
12:50	metajack	With enlive, is there a way to clone the first element of a list and delete the rest. For example, the template html has an example list..
12:50	dnolen	dherman: one pressure we have is that engines currently punish Object.freeze last I checked. So we can't use it to protect our persistent data structures yet.
12:55	dnolen	dherman: so you think PJS would work with persistent data structures, essentially nested arrays?
13:03	TimMc	dnolen: Under what circumstances would the CLJS compiler produce a constructor containing concurrent code?
13:03	brainproxy	dnolen: you'll be presenting on cljs at Strange Loop, that's awesome; Hickey's keynote last year stirred my interest in Clojure, and I've tried to apply his ideas/advice to my nodejs prog'ing even before getting into clojure/script
13:03	jhulten	How do people decide between atoms, refs, etc? Is there common understanding of what is best to use where?
13:03	dnolen	TimMc: it would not
13:03	jhulten	brainproxy: His 'Simple made Easy' talk rocked my world.
13:04	dnolen	brainproxy: yep, mostly talking about nerdy details of the CLJS complier.
13:04	brainproxy	jhulten: yeah, mine too, really enjoyed it
13:04	technomancy	jhulten: it basically comes down to whether you need consistency among multiple threads
13:04	TimMc	dnolen: So I fail to see the problem with using freeze -- except you said something about penalization.
13:05	jhulten	Atoms lock across threads and refs use STM? Ref changes can be reordered?
13:05	dnolen	TimMc: yes, yes - we'd be ok with Object.freeze if engines don't hurt us for it.
13:05	TimMc	Atoms are always uncoordinated (independent of each other.)
13:05	TimMc	dnolen: Gotcha, thanks.
13:06	jhulten	Ah. So if you need to change two things in concert you use refs?
13:06	nDuff	jhulten: yes
13:06	TimMc	jhulten: Right. Or change one thing based on the current value of another.
13:06	technomancy	jhulten: if it's important that each thread gets a consistent view of the world
13:06	brainproxy	dnolen: so last night I had some success coming up w/ some logic to wrap up unoptimized output as spit out by n/cljsc in such a way that it can be run on nodejs
13:06	jhulten	Thinking on a clojure based statsd as a learning project.
13:07	ibdknox	woah.
13:08	ibdknox	Matt Mullenweg just kicked in 10k
13:08	nDuff	jhulten: ...you wouldn't be the first person to use clojure for real-time stream processing and statistics, and the last folks I knew using it in that space were very, very happy.
13:08	dherman	dnolen: I think PJS would work with persistent data structures. I want immutable data structures too. but that's hard too, b/c JS still has mutable prototypes
13:08	timvisher	ibdknox: whoo!
13:09	rplevy	jhulten: atom is by far the most common way of dealing with state, refs are only needed for those things discussed above.
13:09	technomancy	jhulten: you might be interested in https://github.com/heroku/pulse
13:09	dherman	dnolen: and also b/c shallow immutability is still not a guarantee of deep immutability
13:09	TimMc	I still haven't had to use an agent.
13:09	timvisher	i don't mean to be 'that guy' because lighttable is freaking awesome looking, but so much of what you're saying seems true of emacs. is there a quick answer as to why you wouldn't just enhance emacs?
13:09	rplevy	TimMc: I have used agents, but it almost always ends up being future that makes more sense
13:09	brainproxy	dnolen: beyond the use of java facilities for doing file i/o, are there parts of compiler.clj that simply couldn' be expressed in cljs vs. clj?
13:10	timvisher	i think people would even still be willing to pay to have that sort of work done, as pointed out by technomancy
13:10	TimMc	Because elisp. :-P
13:10	dnolen	brainproxy: not that I'm aware of.
13:10	rplevy	timvisher: because ibdknox is vi-user (troll)
13:10	TimMc	rplevy: Oy! Come to BAZNEX tomorrow!
13:10	technomancy	I doubt you could get USD200k+ for implementing it in Emacs
13:11	rplevy	TimMc: I live in Vermont now, dude ;)
13:11	brainproxy	dnolen: I'm considering an attempt to split out the file i/o parts into a separate namespace, which I could then implement with nodejs's fs module
13:11	timvisher	technomancy: i wonder if there would be less work to do though? probably not
13:11	TimMc	rplevy: Vermont is no excuse!
13:11	technomancy	there would be much less work to do
13:11	brainproxy	in which case I could then compile compiler.clj down to standalone javascript
13:11	ibdknox	I highly doubt that
13:11	timvisher	i'm not familiar enough with what the demos are being written in
13:11	dnolen	dherman: hmm, why are mutable prototypes a problem? seems like worrying about people doing the wrong thing?
13:11	technomancy	if you based it on the xembed branch of emacs anyway; since you can embed webkit
13:12	ibdknox	starting from emacs means I can never break away from any of the things it did wrong
13:12	dherman	dnolen: aren't your data structures deeply immutable?
13:12	dherman	I mean, how do you avoid data races?
13:12	technomancy	if you had to make it work with the current trunk version it would be hard
13:12	brainproxy	it would only be good for generating unoptim'd output, i.e. if you waned optimized output, you would still have to pass back through closure.clj to get at the google closure routines
13:12	timvisher	i really am not trying to put down the idea at all. like i said the ui alone is jaw dropping, let alone the actual interactive demos, but this last post especially talking about customizing your environment and tool etc is a classic selling point of emacs
13:12	dnolen	dherman: they are.
13:12	ibdknox	I think do things as I showed
13:12	ibdknox	would take far longer starting from emacs
13:13	dherman	so...?
13:13	ibdknox	you'd end up with a better base editor certainly
13:13	timvisher	ibdknox: good enough :)
13:13	ibdknox	at least in the near term
13:13	TimMc	ibdknox: Maybe you can embed emacs for the editing. :-P
13:13	ibdknox	TimMc: it's a thought
13:13	ibdknox	not going to worry about it anytime soon
13:13	TimMc	Good.
13:14	timvisher	i really wish you the best of luck. feels like an editor with enough good ideas that it could have the same effect that clojure seems to be having on the programming world
13:14	timvisher	also, didn't you mention at some point that the underlying tech supports different editor modes?
13:14	foxdonut	ibdknox: "...I also advise and invest in startups through my company Audrey Capital."
13:14	dnolen	dherman: I don't follow ... like being worried that somebody will change prototype underneath you?
13:14	timvisher	you wouldn't get the lispy extension of emacs, but you could at least get it's keybindings
13:15	rplevy	TimMc: codemirror is pretty cool, someone should make a codemirror-like thing that is full emacs maybe
13:16	TimMc	timvisher: Presumably it would Clojure-scriptable at the very least.
13:16	foxdonut	ibdknox: that is awesome. you might have to up the number of 10k slots available before the 10 days are up!
13:16	rplevy	except it would be clojurescript instead of elisp hehe
13:17	timvisher	you wouldn't hear any arguments from me if you could get clojurescript to be the extension language of my editor. :)
13:17	technomancy	timvisher: how about for extending your desktop? =)
13:17	p_l	well, elisp seems easier to get a runtime running...
13:18	timvisher	oh come now, you know i've though over and over of getting an emacs written in clojure!
13:18	dnolen	brainproxy: wasn't following closely enough - somebody needs to port more of the Clojure reader before bootstrapping is possible.
13:18	technomancy	no, I mean gnome
13:18	timvisher	lol, i know
13:18	timvisher	old emacs joke
13:18	dnolen	brainproxy: I'd also be concerned about performance of the compiler - CLJ on JVM highly tuned - CLJS perf work still in progress.
13:19	technomancy	=)
13:19	rplevy	LightTable seems awesome. the question is, is it awesom enough to pull me (and "people like me") away from emacs, at least some of the time. Another question is, is it worth it for non-front-end kinds of hacking.
13:19	brainproxy	dnolen: point taken
13:19	timvisher	do have something like that running? or are we dreaming of a lisp machine?
13:19	technomancy	timvisher: I have hello world, but I don't have the repl hooked up yet
13:19	timvisher	cljsmacs, maybe?
13:19	brainproxy	dnolen: so basically I'd run into issues where I needed support from cljs.reader that just isn't there yet?
13:19	timvisher	woah! publishing that any time soon?
13:19	technomancy	timvisher: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-gnome
13:19	timvisher	that might be reason to finally kick my Apple habbit
13:20	rplevy	timvisher: just emajin
13:20	dnolen	brainproxy: yes it's not there.
13:20	dnolen	brainproxy: compiler.clj would also need to change - very Java reader result type centric ATM
13:20	brainproxy	dnolen: alright, I'll hold off then ... not that I've got the ability to run a "detached" JVM ncljsc server, compile times are down to ~2 secs anyway
13:20	brainproxy	i.e. because I don't have to spin up the jvm every time
13:21	timvisher	well boy oh boy. now i'm fairly sure that technomancy is an alien too
13:21	timvisher	lol
13:21	brainproxy	*now that..
13:21	timvisher	i don't how you all do it
13:21	dherman	dnolen: if we allow concurrent/parallel access to a data structure, we have to ensure race freedom. a shallowly immutable data structure that has immutable references to mutable data structures would still make races possible
13:21	dnolen	brainproxy: yeah, compiler is not slow - but booting JVM, compiling CLJS is killer.
13:23	rplevy	technomancy: I might have switch back from KDE to gnome. the massive fail of Unity led me revisit KDE and it made amazing progress since the old days.
13:24	technomancy	Unity makes me sad just because of how divisive it is.
13:24	rplevy	ironic too...
13:24	technomancy	gnome could be so much better if all this effort wasn't being poured into duplicating its features in unity.
13:24	technomancy	but gnome will win in the long run because of its extension mechanism
13:24	technomancy	it will just take longer
13:25	gtrak	kde is freaking great now
13:25	technomancy	does it have a repl? =)
13:26	gtrak	hmm, well I have enough things to mess with, honestly :-)
13:27	gtrak	http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma/JavaScript/GettingStarted
13:27	glitch99	Is there a way to get at the javadoc statements about a function from the REPL?
13:28	glitch99	AH (doc <func>) - sorry that was too easy
13:29	gtrak	I just find any other DE unusable for multiple monitors, I've used gnome 3 and 2 for years though. Gnome2 not really an option anymore. gnome3 and unity are optimized for one app at-a-time, imo.
13:30	technomancy	gtrak: yeah, but that's easy to fix with an extension
13:30	technomancy	it's all just JS
13:30	technomancy	runtime-modifiable
13:30	beffbernard	technomancy: I'm experiencing some odd behavior with how swank-clojure is dealing with async callbacks. i.e. It doesn't appear to be calling my callbacks
13:31	beffbernard	technomancy: oops.. looks like that was premature.. obv it was all my doing.. closing the connection too soon
13:32	clojure-newcomer	Hi guys. If I have a clojure.lang.Cons result like : http://pastebin.com/nALzZF6K can anyone help me with emitting it as XML using clojure.data.xml ? It is the mapping function I am struggling with.
13:32	beffbernard	disregard
13:32	gtrak	technomancy: I'll believe it when I see it :-). The gnome guys interpretation of 'usability' isn't really viable. But those other spinoffs look interesting. eg. cinnamon
13:33	clojure-newcomer	The result is from clojure.java.jdbc with-query-results
13:33	technomancy	gtrak: it doesn't really matter what their opinions are; it matters that they provide a good foundation and reasonable abstractions to build upon.
13:33	gtrak	technomancy: I know you're interested in doing some stuff with that, I'll definitely check it out :-)
13:33	rplevy	gtrak: I agree, so many aspects of the UI are just complete WTF I can't believe they shipped this...
13:34	dnolen	dherman: yeah, I suppose that would be less of a real issue if you could control field visibility.
13:34	rplevy	but if I can customize it al in ClojureScript....
13:34	technomancy	rplevy: try it! =)
13:34	TimMc	technomancy: It matters that they don't seem to do user testing.
13:34	p_l	gtrak: GNOME lost the sight of what they were doing somewhere around 2.4
13:34	dherman	dnolen: yeah, it's remarkably hard to shoe-horn immutability onto JS. but I believe it's possible. we just need to try different ideas
13:34	technomancy	TimMc: it matters if you're going to use unmodified gnome
13:34	dherman	dnolen: and I agree Object.freeze blows. if I weren't so busy on my PhD at the time it happened, I might've fought it
13:35	rplevy	technomancy: I definitely will, it sounds awesome!
13:35	technomancy	TimMc: Emacs still ships with ido-mode off by default for crying out loud.
13:35	dnolen	dherman: :)
13:35	technomancy	TimMc: that kind of problem is easy to fix if you know what you're doing
13:35	TimMc	technomancy: I'm customization-shy these days. THings break too quickly due to upgrades.
13:35	TimMc	I still do it, but I don't like to rely on it.
13:35	gtrak	I think the fragmentation issue is kind of a big deal. for instance, if I invest time into learning light table, why not make that the DE? Anything can do anything.
13:36	technomancy	gtrak: I actually think light table would be an interesting base for a browser
13:36	TimMc	yo dawg
13:36	gtrak	sure, but things will settle on some local maxima, and it's hard to go against the grain as a normal user
13:37	technomancy	"the reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man adapts the world to him; therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."
13:37	technomancy	Shaw had it right
13:37	TimMc	I'm pretty damn unreasonable, but I have other work to do.
13:38	gtrak	I agree with TimMc :-)
13:38	technomancy	you guys are no fun =(
13:38	ibdknox	lol
13:38	ibdknox	gtrak: DE?
13:38	ibdknox	development env?
13:38	TimMc	Desktop Env
13:38	gtrak	window manager?
13:38	ibdknox	ah
13:38	gtrak	why not?
13:39	ibdknox	I sort of think of it that way to be honest, but the answer to "why not" is time
13:39	gtrak	right
13:39	technomancy	gjs can control X =)
13:39	ibdknox	I also think we need to get one thing really, really right first
13:40	ibdknox	if that happens, who knows what people will do with it :)
13:40	dnolen	dherman: still seems like something like this could be solved with an immutable record type. no customizable constructor, prototype with non-mutable implementations (can be extended), only final private fields (this.field only works in prototype methods)
13:41	technomancy	tiling window manager in javascript: https://github.com/gfxmonk/shellshape
13:42	gtrak	I think it'd be lovely to run some kitchen-sink environment like emacs or LT as a window manager
13:43	gtrak	if you're a developer, I mean..
13:44	technomancy	yeah, I'm all for reducing the number of programs you use that you don't have direct control over
13:46	TimMc	Dynamic langs make that easier.
13:46	sjl	since contrib is gone, what should I use to replace dissoc-in ?
13:46	TimMc	sjl: update-in with dissoc
13:46	sjl	ick
13:46	sjl	that won't clear out the intermediate empty lists though, right?
13:47	technomancy	TimMc: I think that's a red herring.
13:47	technomancy	TimMc: interactive languages make it easier. dynamic languages historically have had the edge on interactivity.
13:48	technomancy	but I don't think there's anything intrinsic to the typing discipline.
13:49	foxdonut	technomancy: do you use shellshape? the demo looks pretty good.
13:51	technomancy	foxdonut: no, I'm not on 3.4 yet. Just good to see it's possible
13:53	foxdonut	technomancy: indeed.
13:53	TimMc	technomancy: You're right, interactive is what I really mean.
13:53	TimMc	Interpreted/compiled on-the-fly langs too.
13:54	technomancy	yeah, languages that compile directly to machine code seem to have a harder time with seamless interactivity
13:54	TimMc	...which I would call a slightly different concept.
13:54	technomancy	it's easier to do on a VM/interpreter, but that's not required
13:55	technomancy	IIRC haskell's interactive compiler has subtle differences vs the mainline one
13:55	hiredman	technomancy: that may have more to do with immutability of top level references
13:55	gtrak	the whole java stack and how we abuse it is pretty bizarre but awesome, when you think about it
13:56	hiredman	and issues with redefining types
13:56	technomancy	hiredman: that would make sense
13:57	brainproxy	woohoo, strange loop ticket acquired :)
13:57	technomancy	would be interesting to see how the straight-to-C schemes do it
13:57	technomancy	if they do in fact do it
13:57	brainproxy	any other #clojure folks will be attending?
13:57	gtrak	brainproxy: duh :-)
13:57	dnolen	brainproxy: a lot :)
13:58	brainproxy	I actually live in St. Louis, so it's just down the street for me
13:58	brainproxy	almost literally
13:58	brainproxy	about 2 miles :D
13:58	hiredman	technomancy: direct memory access is pretty much the definition of "mutable global reference"
13:59	jlongster	dnolen: I will see you at Strange Loop as well :)
13:59	devn	oh shite. i need a strange loop ticket.
13:59	foxdonut	sigh wish I could go to these things. :_(
13:59	dnolen	jlongster: cool! I look forward to more Lisp conversation :)
13:59	technomancy	hiredman: heh; sure
14:00	Borkdude	devn: cool
14:00	jlongster	dnolen: me too!
14:00	imami\|afk	hey technomancy
14:01	technomancy	ohai
14:05	kmicu	whether val,key, int, etc... fns are implemented in the latest version of clojurescript? Where I can find such an info?
14:06	dnolen	kmicu: at the moment no better documentation than the source really.
14:08	kmicu	dnolen: thx
14:09	brainproxy	i'm the organizer of the JS meetup here in Saint Louis (stljs.org) ... w/ all the JS-related speakers setup for SL2012 (inc. Eich!) i'm wondering if I should push Sept's meeting to the week and try to get one of the SL speakers to make an appearance
14:10	Borkdude	what is the leading repo of clojurescript, I assume https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript ?
14:10	brainproxy	Borkdude: yeah, thats the one
14:10	Borkdude	it has a "forked from … " message on the top, but that one doesn't even exist anymore
14:11	rplevy	how would I configure lein to always run clean? would I use the prep-tasks feature for this?
14:11	brainproxy	ah, right ... you can safely ignore that i think, all the official commits go to clojure/clojurescript
14:11	technomancy	rplevy: in 2.x, yeah
14:11	technomancy	:prep-tasks ["clean"]
14:11	technomancy	rplevy: more interested in why you need it though
14:12	rplevy	well, I have run into problems with tests passing, running lein clean, and then seeing tests fail (as they should)
14:13	dnolen	Borkdude: that's the official repo
14:16	S11001001	rplevy: you aren't overusing macros are you?
14:17	S11001001	&aot
14:17	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: aot in this context
14:17	S11001001	no
14:17	rplevy	S11001001: only using them appropriately haha
14:18	S11001001	so not at all in the aot case then
14:18	rplevy	S11001001: need AOT though
14:18	S11001001	welp
14:18	S11001001	macros and aot only get together during the holidays, and then always subjecting everyone around to uncomfortable silences
14:19	rplevy	LOL
14:22	S11001001	so anyway that's what lein test! is for, yes?
14:22	rplevy	there should be a lein midje! then
14:22	S11001001	lein clean, midje
14:23	rplevy	true enough
14:23	Borkdude	S11001001: lein test! as in destructive testing?
14:23	rplevy	or... prep-tasks
14:23	rplevy	Borkdude: it runs clean and deps
14:23	S11001001	clean can be annoying, especially if you're repling at the same time
14:24	S11001001	gets all turned around
14:24	Borkdude	write a script ;)
14:24	rplevy	Borkdude: I don't want to have to run lein through a script though that is the obvious last resort
14:25	S11001001	hmm, it would be better to freshly clone the dir and run a build and test out of that
14:27	Borkdude	Some programming language tend to use a lot of $ characters, clojure doesn't. it's obviously not interested in money making.
14:28	foxdonut	Borkdude: the money's in the (tax) brackets!
14:28	S11001001	rplevy: you missed Jeff talking about Kiln at bos cloj, was pretty good
14:28	rplevy	is there video?!
14:28	rplevy	that sounds good
14:28	S11001001	doubt it
14:28	rplevy	you guys should record these things...
14:29	S11001001	with any luck, we're just getting to the "having regular meetings" stage
14:29	rplevy	nice
14:32	robink	I know Clojure 1.5.0-alpha1 is out, but in future, how do I specify clojure-1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT in a project.clj?
14:33	rplevy	S11001001: is Jeff somehow using Kiln at work or is this completely his personal project
14:35	S11001001	former I think was the implication
14:36	Borkdude	robink: [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] ?
14:37	robink	Borkdude: Doesn't find it if I specify it that way.
14:37	Borkdude	robink: that's because it doesn't exist
14:37	wkmanire	Howdy folks.
14:37	robink	Borkdude: It does on Sonatype's repository. If I include the repository it still fails to resolve.
14:37	Borkdude	robink: http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cgav%7C1%7Cg%3A%22org.clojure%22%20AND%20a%3A%22clojure%22
14:37	Borkdude	robink: ah well, I don't know then
14:39	raek	the sonatype repo of releases might be different from the repo of snapshots
14:39	raek	wouldn't be suprised if only the releases repo is used by lein by default
14:40	Borkdude	robink: when I search here I don't see it: https://repository.sonatype.org/index.html#nexus-search;quick~clojure
14:41	TimMc	rplevy: Doesn't Vermont have trains?
14:43	rplevy	TimMc: yeah, do you know how far north Burlington is?
14:43	rplevy	damn near Canada
14:44	TimMc	nonsense
14:44	rplevy	beautiful though, I can see the Adirondacks across the lake from my porch
14:44	rplevy	this might be off-topic
14:45	TimMc	OK, maybe a bit closer to Canada.
14:45	robink	Borkdude: https://oss.sonatype.org/service/local/repositories/snapshots/content/org/clojure/clojure/1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT/clojure-1.5.0-master-20120519.020223-8.jar
14:45	rplevy	other than as an unpaid advertisment for Clojurers to come work at Draker
14:46	S11001001	it's clojurian
14:46	rplevy	aha
14:46	Borkdude	S11001001: how do you pronounce clojurian, could you spell it phonetically?
14:46	rplevy	Clojurista
14:46	TimMc	cljer ("kludger")
14:46	S11001001	like centurion, emphasis on 2nd syllable
14:47	Borkdude	S11001001: I was wondering about the j, if it is still pronounces as an s?
14:47	S11001001	I wouldn't pronounce it as an s in Clojure
14:47	S11001001	given the other billion things that already means
14:47	Borkdude	S11001001: how do you pronounce clojure?
14:47	rplevy	me neither
14:47	S11001001	hard J
14:48	rplevy	same
14:48	antares_	Borkdude: as in "jurassic"
14:48	TimMc	I think Rich wants it pronounced like an s, but there's no chance of that.
14:49	S11001001	honestly have never heard it as "closure", though perhaps I just missed it
14:49	rplevy	I've heard Rich say it that way
14:49	rplevy	zh
14:49	Borkdude	I always pronounce it as "closure"
14:49	S11001001	madness
14:49	S11001001	I'll just assume anyone who says that means the Clozure CL implementation
14:49	TimMc	Or GClosure
14:50	TimMc	(Google Closure)
14:50	S11001001	or the Closure web browser written in CL
14:50	Borkdude	Closure means Clojure unless stated otherwise
14:50	TimMc	Nah, too much talk about GClosure in here due to CLJS.
14:50	Borkdude	gclosure is fine
14:51	Borkdude	I had a discussion with some american Dutch people (from America originally) about how to pronounce Clojure
14:51	TimMc	Except people often leave off the "G".
14:51	Borkdude	they told me: if the author wants it to be pronounced as closure, that's fine
14:51	S11001001	Nabokovite
14:51	TimMc	It's not his choice to make. :-P
14:52	Borkdude	so from then on, I just did that
14:52	rplevy	Lolitian?
14:52	S11001001	it was Nabokov's position that the artistic life of a book existed entirely in the mind of the author, and it was the job of the reader to, as closely as possible, rediscover precisely that interpretation
14:53	S11001001	in other words, writer-supremacy
14:53	Borkdude	clojure with a hard j doesn't sound very nice in Dutch, like calling names
14:53	TimMc	As opposed to what I see as the prevailing view these days.
14:53	Borkdude	not really, but it just doesn't sound nice
14:53	robink	Borkdude: Also: https://oss.sonatype.org/index.html#nexus-search;quick~clojure (oss.sonatype.org, not repository.sonatype.org).
14:53	TimMc	What's that quote? "As the author, you're the least qualified person in this room to discuss what your book means!"
14:54	Borkdude	TimMc: so do you agree with Nabokov?
14:54	S11001001	I should think not
14:54	S11001001	what being a hard J user and all
14:54	p_l	TimMc: that's the motto of literature PhDs
14:54	pipeline	my english dialect has no difference between a "zh" and "j" sound anyway
14:54	rplevy	dzh = j
14:55	rplevy	diphthong
14:55	pipeline	given that there are millions of us, "clojure" and "closure" are gonna blur together
14:55	Borkdude	lol means let over lambda in here right?
14:55	rplevy	no it means land of lisp
14:55	Borkdude	or let over fun?
14:55	Borkdude	lof
14:55	Borkdude	let over fn
14:55	foxdonut	rplevy: you live near Canada?
14:55	rplevy	yeah
14:55	rplevy	not far from Montreal
14:56	rplevy	Burlington, VT
14:56	mfex	robink: use [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.0-alpha1"] or do you need something more recent even?
14:57	robink	mfex: I don't currently, just wondering how one would specify "1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT" as a dependency.
14:57	foxdonut	rplevy: that's cool. I live in Montreal.
14:57	rplevy	cool, is there a meetup there?
14:57	TimMc	foxdonut: Hold a Clojure meetup, maybe rplevy can make it t... damn, beat me to it.
14:57	rplevy	hehe
14:58	foxdonut	heh, well we have Bonjure :)
14:58	Borkdude	clojure eyes, give me your hand…. total eclipse of the code
14:58	rplevy	foxdonut: leiningen will allow if ironic
14:58	foxdonut	http://www.bonjure.org/
14:58	rplevy	oh it's a thing
14:58	rplevy	nice
14:59	ibdknox	dnolen: with cljs master I'm getting the following: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$get
14:59	ibdknox	dnolen: not happening with any of the releases
14:59	dnolen	ibdknox: looking
15:00	ibdknox	dnolen: I'm trying to track it down, just wondering if you've seen anything around this lately. It's something to do with macroexpansion
15:01	dnolen	ibdknox: yes, a small optimization get's are now inlined to -lookup
15:01	ibdknox	ah
15:01	dnolen	ibdknox: not sure where that would be coming from tho
15:02	dnolen	ibdknox: did you try cleaning? re-checking out your clojurescript?
15:02	foxdonut	rplevy: I think many Montrealers drive down to Burlington to fly out for cheaper
15:02	ibdknox	dnolen: cleaned, but I'll try cloning the repo again
15:03	dnolen	ibdknox: hmm, oh sorry that looks like an error in the compiler side of things.
15:04	ibdknox	compiler.clj 1407 is where the problem starts apparently
15:05	rplevy	is Bonjure French-speaking or English?
15:05	dnolen	ibdknox: I think I've spotted it
15:06	rplevy	the website is in English, and the discussion group too, so...
15:06	foxdonut	rplevy: either or according to those present :)
15:07	rplevy	cool
15:07	foxdonut	basically English is the default not to ever make anyone feel left out
15:07	dnolen	ibdknox: sorry about that, pull latest
15:07	dnolen	ibdknox: let me know if the issue persists
15:08	felideon	heh Bonjure
15:09	ibdknox	dnolen: hm, still getting it
15:10	dnolen	ibdknox: huh, I don't suppose you can isolate the code that causes the problem?
15:12	ibdknox	dnolen: I wish I could :( It's not the result of any change I made, I just pulled and ended up here, so my whole codebase is suspect. What goes down that codepath? maybe I can isolate it that way
15:14	dnolen	ibdknox: trying re-checking out one more time.
15:14	dnolen	ibdknox: core$get just doesn't make sense to me, that's the alias and it's only used in one place.
15:15	dnolen	ibdknox: it most certainly supports 3 args.
15:16	y3di	where can i see clojurelogs
15:16	y3di	s/clojurelogs/#clojure logs
15:16	dnolen	ibdknox: if you could paste the entire stacktrace that would be helpful too.
15:17	mfex	robink: this worked for me to get 1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT: https://gist.github.com/2771033
15:17	ibdknox	dnolen: I'll have to piece it back together, that stupid printing thing is still happening haha. This is a comedy of errors. Give me a sec
15:17	robink	mfex: Thanks! I'll try it out.
15:17	uvtc	y3di, <http://clojure-log.n01se.net/>
15:17	dnolen	ibdknox: thx
15:19	ibdknox	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2830
15:19	robink	mfex: Works, thank you very much, I'll keep that repository in mind in future.
15:20	brainproxy	dnolen: is there any project (yet) akin to clojuredocs for clojurescript? it would be nice to be able to reference a list of all the operators in core, core.reader, etc.
15:21	dnolen	ibdknox: in your checkout can you look at src/clj/cljs/core.clj line 253?
15:21	dnolen	brainproxy: there is not - and i agree that would be useful.
15:21	brainproxy	maybe not even something as fancy as clojuredocs, even just a list
15:22	ibdknox	dnolen: (-dissoc! [tcoll key])
15:22	y3di	thanks uvtc
15:22	dnolen	ibdknox: that's not the right file, not core.cljs
15:22	antares_	Just released Welle 1.0: https://twitter.com/clojurewerkz/status/205013459379818499 (more at http://clojureriak.info)
15:22	ibdknox	oh sorry
15:22	dnolen	ibdknox: the macros file, same directory as compiler.clj
15:23	ibdknox	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2831
15:23	dnolen	ibdknox: do you see why I think that error is bizarre?
15:23	ibdknox	haha yes
15:23	dnolen	ibdknox: there's the 3 argument case right there.
15:24	Raynes	ibdknox: It'd be cool to have a clojure stacktrace pygments lexer.
15:24	Raynes	One that did things like clj-stacktrace.
15:24	ibdknox	Raynes: that would be neat
15:24	dnolen	ibdknox: if that didn't work I would have seen errors myself when running the tests.
15:24	Raynes	But I'll be damned if I plan on writing the Python to do it.
15:25	amalloy	dnolen: related to the implicit &env, &form arguments?
15:25	dnolen	amalloy: how?
15:25	dnolen	amalloy: and if that was true, why aren't the other multiarity macros affected?
15:26	amalloy	occasionally i've seen "incorrect" error messages about wrong number of args to macros
15:26	amalloy	like a three-arg macro being "omg i can't handle three args" because really it wants five
15:27	dnolen	amalloy: again I could believe that if +, -, etc didn't all work.
15:27	amalloy	nod i understand what you mean. i'm just brainstorming here since you guys seem at a loss, but i don't have a lot of cljs expertise
15:28	dnolen	ibdknox: what version of Clojure are you running? 1.4.0?
15:28	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah
15:28	amalloy	but suppose someone were calling (get x) - that should fail, and you might get this error message
15:28	dnolen	amalloy: oh huh that's probably it.
15:28	TimMc	Sneaky.
15:28	dnolen	ibdknox: look for (get x)
15:29	dnolen	ibdknox: a typo in your own code
15:29	ibdknox	looking
15:29	dnolen	ibdknox: wouldn't have come before
15:29	amalloy	right. an error in ibdknox's code that would be at runtime before, but is macro-time now
15:29	ibdknox	there are no runtime errors
15:30	ibdknox	if I move off to the latest release everything is fine
15:30	amalloy	ibdknox: if you never call the function there wouldn't be
15:30	ibdknox	mm
15:30	ibdknox	true
15:30	ibdknox	wait
15:30	ibdknox	could it be that it's no longer respecting if I exclude get?
15:31	ibdknox	dnolen: ^
15:31	amalloy	probably
15:31	dnolen	ibdknox: actually I just verified I get the same error if I write (fn [x] (get x))
15:31	brainproxy	dnolen: regarding JS concurrency (generally speaking), did you ever look into the Flapjax project, headed up by some comp sci students at Brown a couple years back?
15:31	ibdknox	amalloy: I bet that's what it is then
15:31	dnolen	brainproxy: I have though I don't find such projects (adding a concurrency layer) that interesting.
15:32	ibdknox	dnolen: that's it
15:32	ibdknox	dnolen: you can no longer name something get
15:32	amalloy	dnolen: i don't understand why you make things like `get` a separate macro - can't you put it as :inline metadata on the function? that might help with excluding from the namespace
15:32	dnolen	amalloy: there is not such thing as :inline metadata, nor is it necessary.
15:33	brainproxy	dnolen: you think the concepts are too limiting? not that helpful?
15:33	dnolen	ibdknox: were you excluding get?
15:33	ibdknox	yep
15:33	dnolen	brainproxy: performance mostly.
15:33	amalloy	oh, really? i guess the feature's nonexistence would be a good reason not to use it
15:34	dnolen	amalloy: you just don't need it, compiler macros do what :inline did
15:34	dnolen	ibdknox: can you paste your ns declaration? excluding macros is closed ticket
15:35	ibdknox	mm
15:35	amalloy	i always thought of :inline as just being a way to declare a compiler macro. is the way you're doing this (separate function/macro) the cljs way of doing compiler macros, then?
15:35	dnolen	amalloy: yes
15:36	ibdknox	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2833
15:37	brainproxy	dnolen: I had been trying to build a generalized flapjax (fully variadic, with monad-like transforms) using coffeescript, but hit difficult areas because some of the abstractions are tricky sitting atop js/coffee, will probably try again w/ clojurescript
15:37	dnolen	brainproxy: that sounds interesting :)
15:38	dnolen	ibdknox: hmm at the REPL that exclude w/ (get x) compiles fine
15:38	brainproxy	dnolen: i think so.. will let you know if/when I have any luck w/ it
15:38	ibdknox	dnolen: it was fixed by just changing the name from get
15:39	dnolen	ibdknox: do you have multiple :requires, :refer-clojure, :uses etc ?
15:39	ibdknox	dnolen: nope, that's the whole ns
15:39	ibdknox	very simple one
15:39	ibdknox	dnolen: here's the file https://www.refheap.com/paste/2834
15:40	pepijndevos	amalloy: ohnoes, huggle is broken in lazybot.
15:41	dnolen	ibdknox: why does it say clojure.core/get ? is that a typo?
15:42	ibdknox	hah
15:42	ibdknox	that is
15:42	amalloy	hah, neue
15:43	amalloy	you know you can just use new there, right?
15:43	ibdknox	dnolen: switching to cljs.core/get doesn't fix it
15:43	ibdknox	amalloy: habit
15:43	ibdknox	amalloy: so used to not being able to name things new :)
15:43	amalloy	i like the spelling though. it's a cute workaround
15:44	Borkdude	ibdknox: german roots?
15:44	ibdknox	Borkdude: stimmt
15:44	dnolen	ibdknox: can you do me a favor
15:44	ibdknox	Borkdude: though it works nicely with Helvetica Neue and such too
15:44	dnolen	ibdknox: compile a project with just that file.
15:44	ibdknox	sure
15:47	ibdknox	dnolen: blows up with the same stacktrace
15:49	drguildo	has anyone else used seesaw?
15:49	dnolen	ibdknox: checking it out here
15:50	drguildo	oops
15:50	drguildo	sorry!
15:50	dnolen	ibdknox: hmm ... it successfully compiles
15:50	drguildo	i didn't think it'd spit it out here
15:51	pepijndevos	Raynes: Y U remove good stufz? https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/commit/9f3629b6abd84ab8c65ee978ecc08d305f743077
15:51	dnolen	ibdknox: it definitely did not work for you in a project by itself?
15:51	raek	drguildo: if you have a question, just go ahead and ask it
15:51	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah, that was the only cljs file in it
15:52	Raynes	pepijndevos: Bahaha.
15:52	Bronsa	are you sure you are both using the same clojurescript version? :)
15:52	Raynes	pepijndevos: A lot of those were vulgar test commands from the early days of lazybot.
15:52	pepijndevos	$guards
15:52	lazybot	SEIZE HIM!
15:52	drguildo	i'm just wondering whether i'm doing something wrong or whether seesaw is badly written because whenever i build against it my jar file is massive and it includes a ton of crap that i shouldn't even be using
15:52	ibdknox	Bronsa: both on master
15:52	amalloy	also a lot of them didn't work at all
15:53	amalloy	like balance. really
15:53	Raynes	amalloy: No, they all worked.
15:53	drguildo	crap being other libraries
15:53	amalloy	well okay, by "a lot" i meant one
15:53	Raynes	amalloy: They all worked in that almost all of them just printed a silly message and did something trivial. Balance did what I wanted it to do, which was stupid. :p
15:54	emezeske	drguildo: Your jar file, or your uberjar file?
15:54	drguildo	also loading the resulting program takes ages
15:54	drguildo	emezeske, uberjar
15:54	pepijndevos	Raynes: Maybe I can reintroduce them by the weird x is y syntax?
15:54	ibdknox	dnolen: maybe it's the way I'm including master?
15:54	Raynes	pepijndevos: You mean the whatis plugin?
15:54	ibdknox	dnolen: I'm just doing the extra-classpaths thing
15:54	emezeske	drguildo: Of course that's going to be big, it contains all the dependencies for your entire project, including dependencies of dependencies, etc
15:55	Raynes	pepijndevos: amalloy and I have been discussing rewriting whatis as a more clojureboty factoid plugin, but we always argued over syntax and such and never actually did it. Feel free to ignore us and do it yourself.
15:55	drguildo	emezeske, so what are my options? i want to be able to run it standalone with as little unused/unneeded stuff as possible.
15:56	drguildo	emezeske, and that also doesn't explain why programs built with seesaw are so slow
15:56	dnolen_	ibdknox: I've emailed you the project that I tested with, can you 'lein deps', 'lein-cljsbuild once' to see if that doesn't work for you?
15:56	emezeske	drguildo: Well I can't speak for seesaw's performance.
15:56	emezeske	drguildo: If you want a smaller uberjar, I guess have less dependencies?
15:57	drguildo	emezeske, i only depend on seesaw; i wouldn't be surprised if i depended on all the other stuff
15:57	pepijndevos	Raynes: I mean this one ???
15:57	lazybot	pepijndevos: How could that be wrong?
15:57	emezeske	drguildo: You can see what seesaw depends on here: https://github.com/daveray/seesaw/blob/develop/project.clj
15:58	emezeske	drguildo: Of course, any of its deps might have their own deps and so on
15:58	drguildo	emezeske, i guess it's just bloated
15:58	Raynes	pepijndevos: That's completely random. No x is y.
15:58	pepijndevos	ok
15:58	drguildo	they include the kitchen sink when i just want a more clojurey way of using swing
15:59	raek	drguildo: ahead of time compiling your application should reduce the start up time greatly
15:59	pepijndevos	drguildo: Yea... I think there should be a Object.toSwing protocol, just data as code, code as data, etc...
16:00	drguildo	raek, okay, thanks, but if i write an equivalent pure swing program it compiles and runs a ton faster which leads me to believe that the problem lies with seesaw unless i'm doing something "wrong"
16:00	ibdknox	dnolen_: that seems to have worked
16:01	raek	drguildo: is there noticeable performance degradation after it has started up?
16:01	dnolen_	ibdknox: I'd like to isolate what's different between my project and your project.
16:01	drguildo	raek, kinda impossible to tell because it's just a jlabel embedded in the main jframe
16:01	raek	drguildo: clojure is always slow to start up without aot, basically
16:02	raek	since you compile all code at startup
16:02	dnolen_	ibdknox: are you not using lein-cljsbuild? some custom build process here?
16:02	ibdknox	dnolen_: yeah using noir.cljs
16:02	ibdknox	dnolen_: one sec
16:02	raek	drguildo: have you tried enabling aot compilation?
16:02	drguildo	raek, like i say, direct calls to swing using clojure are fine, seesaw is slow as hell compiling and running
16:03	drguildo	raek, nope
16:04	drguildo	wouldn't lein uberjar compile the clojure code anyway?
16:04	raek	no
16:05	ibdknox	dnolen_: it must be something to do with the difference in the way the classpath is set up
16:05	ibdknox	not sure how that could be true though
16:06	uvtc	,(def m {:a 1 :b 2}) (type m)
16:06	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:06	uvtc	,(def m {:a 1 :b 2}) (println (type m))
16:06	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:06	uvtc	&(def m {:a 1 :b 2}) (println (type m))
16:06	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:06	ibdknox	dnolen_: either way, this issue is on my end
16:06	dnolen_	ibdknox: hmm I don't think so. you could only see that error if somehow that :excludes information was discarded before compilation.
16:06	uvtc	&(println (type {:a 1 :b 2}))
16:06	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap nil
16:06	ibdknox	dnolen_: oh
16:06	drguildo	are there any good clojure gui/swing libraries?
16:06	uvtc	Why is that an array map, and not a hash map?
16:06	dnolen_	ibdknox: before expanding any macros we check to make sure that the macro hasn't been excluded.
16:07	dnolen_	ibdknox: it could only fail if something is messing around with cljs.compiler/namespaces atom
16:07	ibdknox	dnolen_: not touching it
16:07	emezeske	uvtc: I think because it's very small.
16:08	Raynes	drguildo: https://github.com/daveray/seesaw
16:08	emezeske	uvtc: I'm not sure where the threshold is, but smaller maps are created as ArrayMap and larger ones as HashMap
16:08	uvtc	emezeske, Interesting. Will experiment. Thanks!
16:08	Bronsa	uvtc maps with more than 8 elements should be hash-maps
16:08	drguildo	Raynes, seesaw is slow and bloated
16:08	emezeske	&(type {:a 1 :b 1 :c 1 :d 1 :e 1 :f 1 :g 1 :h 1 :i 1 :j 1 :k 1 :l 1 :m 1})
16:08	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
16:08	emezeske	uvtc: ^
16:09	Raynes	...okay.
16:09	Raynes	In that case, I guess not. :\
16:09	uvtc	emezeske, Ah, ok. Thanks guys (emezeske, Bronsa )
16:10	help_please	hi. are there any users of korma here? I'm running into what I feel like should be a simple join, but i cant get it to work
16:10	drguildo	https://github.com/stathissideris/clarity
16:11	Raynes	drguildo: Have you talked to daveray about your problems though? Opened issues on Github?
16:12	drguildo	Raynes, nope, i'm not sure how constructive my criticism would be
16:12	gtrak	drguildo: you might learn something useful if you dig into it
16:12	uvtc	drguildo, if the apps are just for Gnome, I recently heard about this: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-gnome
16:13	drguildo	uvtc, i'm using windows and wouldn't want to do platform specific stuff anyway
16:13	dnolen_	ibdknox: I may have a fix for you ... one second
16:14	uvtc	drguildo, how about using clojurescript and creating your app in the GUI? (sorry if that's already been suggested...)
16:15	drguildo	uvtc, haven't really thought about it
16:16	uvtc	drguildo, Aack! typo: s/GUI/browser/. Sorry. :)
16:19	dnolen_	ibdknox: try master now
16:33	brainproxy	anybody know if the source document for the paredit cheat sheet is available somewhere ... would love to generate a high-res PDF rather than magnifying a relatively low-res png file
16:35	muhoo	is it true that ` is exactly equivalent to (comp list quote) ?
16:36	gtrak	brainproxy: I had good results through a combination of scaling, sharpening, and mathematical morphology ops in gimp, unfortunately, not sure what I did with that file :-)
16:36	S11001001	muhoo: no, 1st quote's not a function
16:38	muhoo	well then to (list (quote)), no way to comp macros,
16:38	muhoo	or special forms. i'm just trying to understand what it does
16:38	gtrak	by morphology I mean erode/dilate
16:39	aperiodic	brainproxy: andy fingerhut is the guy who puts it together; you could shoot him an email
16:39	muhoo	seems like ` behaves the same as (list (quote ...)), but i might be oversimplifying
16:40	brainproxy	aperiodic: sweet thanks
16:40	brainproxy	gtrak: sounds complicated :o
16:41	mebaran151	I'm getting a weird EOF error from clojure/clojurescript project. Anyway to get the compiler to tell me which file is EOF'ing it?
16:42	amalloy	muhoo: i don't think that makes sense. ` behaves like (quote ...) with a couple exceptions; i don't know where you're getting the idea of an extra (list)
16:43	mebaran151	muhoo: here's a nice little guide that explains how they all subtly change the reader's behavior: http://www.learningclojure.com/2010/11/syntax-quote-kata-for-confused.html
16:45	muhoo	amalloy: thanks, i'm just kind of thrashing around trying to understand stuff.
16:46	muhoo	mebaran151: thanks, that looks good
16:46	brainproxy	dnolen_: just found this https://github.com/jafingerhut/clojure-cheatsheets/blob/master/pdf/cljs-cheatsheet.pdf ... certainly along the lines of what I said I was wishing for
16:46	dnolen_	brainproxy: is that different than this? http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html
16:47	muhoo	ahh. that makes more sense. it's quote with full qualification
16:48	TimMc	muhoo: And the possiblity of unquoting.
16:50	brainproxy	dnolen_: nope .. had forgotten about that, though I have made frequent reference to himera's "synonyms" page
16:59	uvtc	I could've sworn that there was a longer "javascript --> clojure" sort of cheatsheet/quick-ref at fogus's himera ... anyone remember that or have a link to it?
16:59	uvtc	It had the same styling as what's currently at http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html .
17:01	mebaran151	hey ibdknox, I think I tracked down this EOF error to cljs/start: any idea how I could get the file that is throwing it for a loop?
17:05	uvtc	Ah ha! Found it: <http://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html>
17:06	dnolen_	nice latest WebKit's support drawing without smoothing.
17:10	jtoy	from inside of a method, can I know the name of the method I am in?
17:11	gtrak	jtoy: why?
17:11	gtrak	methods don't have names, vars do?
17:11	jtoy	i guess i need to use a macro for that
17:11	joegallo	you mean in a proper java method? or were you speaking loosely about clojure functions?
17:12	jtoy	joegallo: clojure function
17:13	TimMc	gtrak: Fns have names too!
17:13	TimMc	Or they can, at least.
17:13	gtrak	yea, just saw that, though I've never used it for anything
17:13	jtoy	i want do to this? (defn mymethod (log nameofthismethod))
17:13	TimMc	It's useful for general recursion.
17:13	jtoy	and i want to add the (log nameofthismethod) into a bunch of methods without having to type the actual name of the method
17:14	TimMc	jtoy: This is for debugging, yeah?
17:14	jtoy	no, for logging some data
17:16	gtrak	&(.getClass (fn inscrutable [] (+ 1 2)))
17:16	lazybot	⇒ sandbox7529$eval10218$inscrutable__10223
17:17	jtoy	gtrak: can I do that from inside inscrutable though?
17:17	gtrak	hmm, probably?
17:17	jtoy	how, what would I pass to .getClass ?
17:18	gtrak	you might have to have it close over itself
17:18	TimMc	&(((fn foooo [] (fn baaaar [] (.getClass #())))))
17:18	lazybot	⇒ sandbox7529$eval10258$foooo__10259$baaaar__10260$fn__10265
17:18	gtrak	oh yea, that works
17:18	jtoy	what is #() ?
17:19	gtrak	&(fn inscrutable [] (.getClass inscrutable))
17:19	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox7529$eval10280$inscrutable__10281 sandbox7529$eval10280$inscrutable__10281@45a218>
17:19	jtoy	&(#())
17:19	lazybot	⇒ ()
17:19	amalloy	,'#()
17:19	clojurebot	(fn* [] ())
17:19	TimMc	jtoy: It's the fastest way of getting a function you don't care about.
17:20	TimMc	s/getting/defining/
17:20	tmciver	TimMc: don't you care about all your functions? :)
17:26	gtrak	though if you're referencing it by a symbol, you could just give back the name of the symbol..
17:27	gtrak	&(fn inscrutable [] (name inscrutable))
17:27	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox7529$eval10319$inscrutable__10320 sandbox7529$eval10319$inscrutable__10320@14ed89a>
17:27	gtrak	&(fn inscrutable [] (name 'inscrutable))
17:27	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox7529$eval10328$inscrutable__10329 sandbox7529$eval10328$inscrutable__10329@d40bb0>
17:27	gtrak	&(fn inscrutable [] (symbol inscrutable))
17:27	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox7529$eval10344$inscrutable__10345 sandbox7529$eval10344$inscrutable__10345@8c7267>
17:27	gtrak	grr!
17:28	emezeske	&((fn inscrutable [] (name 'inscrutable)))
17:28	lazybot	⇒ "inscrutable"
17:28	muhoo	interesting, lazybot doesn't allow (defn foo [] ) but it allows (fn foo [] ) ?
17:28	emezeske	&(name 'inscrutable)
17:28	lazybot	⇒ "inscrutable"
17:28	emezeske	muhoo: lazybot doesn't let you def things
17:28	brehaut	lazybot doesnt allow def (because it lets you munge a shared resource)
17:29	gtrak	emezeske: oh, duh
17:30	emezeske	gtrak: ^_^
17:32	nDuff	...it would, at least, prevent the restrictions on def and such from being needed.
17:32	muhoo	what about startup time?
17:33	muhoo	oh, copy, got it.
17:33	nDuff	muhoo: very cheap if it's done right. Make the image small enough that it can all be cached in RAM, pure copy-on-write so nothing on disk has to be changed on reset, snapshot with all the software you want in the VM already running (REPL already attached to a virtual "serial port"), and there's not much to it.
17:35	gtrak	&((fn inscrutable [] (.getClass inscrutable)))
17:35	lazybot	⇒ sandbox7529$eval10369$inscrutable__10370
17:37	drguildo	has anyone used proguard on a clojure jar?
17:37	muhoo	drguildo: i think the clojure android guys have
17:37	drguildo	i'm getting a ExceptionInInitializerError
17:38	muhoo	time to get back to more practical work. like soon.
17:39	mwillhite	anyone familiar with clj-time?
17:39	emezeske	muhoo: As someone else who had to go through a period like that, I can anecdotally say that it pays off in the long run :)
17:39	mwillhite	It seems from-sql-date should be in the 0.4.2 release, but clojure throws up on it
17:40	joegallo	mwillhite: perhaps if you ask your question, then people who can answer it will pipe up
17:40	joegallo	beat me to it :)
17:40	emezeske	muhoo: I had to beat my head against quoting for a long while, and then take a break, and then beat my head against it some more
17:40	dnolen	ibdknox: did you get to try master?
17:41	mwillhite	:)
17:41	mwillhite	still always good advice
17:41	michaelr`	so is hiccup relatively slow or i'm doing something bad in my code?
17:42	emezeske	michaelr`: I've found hiccup to be very fast myself (although our use cases could differ)
17:42	dnolen	from O'Reilly themselves on CLJS book - https://twitter.com/oreillymedia/status/205006393604976641
17:42	mwillhite	when I try including that function like this in my namespace (ns ... (:use [clj-time.coerce :only (from-sql-data)])
17:42	Raynes	So there is going to be a ClojureScript book?
17:42	mwillhite	I get the following error: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: from-sql-date in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
17:42	Raynes	Already?
17:42	mwillhite	any ideas?
17:43	hiredman	michaelr`: it sort of depends, last I checked hiccup pregenerates as much html as it can, but if it cannot figure it out at compile time it will do the generation at runtime
17:43	mwillhite	the change was committed prior to the latest push to clojars
17:43	michaelr`	hmm
17:44	michaelr`	we have to go deeper ;)
17:49	dnolen	Raynes: why not? I wonder who's working on it
17:49	Raynes	dnolen: Because it's way, way, way too much of a moving target.
17:49	Raynes	What is our currently release? 0.2?
17:50	dnolen	Raynes: stuff underneath is moving, not the external api.
17:50	Raynes	shrug
17:51	mebaran151	michaelr`: I've found hiccup a lot faster than the old erb snippets I was used to
17:56	rplevy	it
17:56	rplevy	it is very odd that they would not have publically announced it
17:56	rplevy	an Aug 2012 release?
17:57	rplevy	and a twitter response as first mention?
17:57	rplevy	maybe a viral marketing technique haha
17:57	fil512	question for you smart people
17:58	fil512	testing, namespace, privacy
17:58	rplevy	whoever is working on it is being very secretive too, weird
17:58	fil512	to encapsulate, I want to use defn-
17:58	fil512	To keep ns clean, I put my tests in a seeparate namespace
17:58	fil512	And I use "use" to import the functions under test
17:58	gtrak	fil512: you know defn- doesn't really protect anything right?
17:59	fil512	But now how do I test the "private" methods?
17:59	gtrak	(#'ns/function args)
17:59	fil512	When I tried to call a "defn-" function, I got an IllegalStateException
18:00	fil512	Is that how most ppl write tests?
18:00	gtrak	fil512: you can get to the var and call it from there
18:00	Chousuke	only for defn- functions I suppose
18:00	rplevy	fil512: there's a great idea in Joy of Clojure
18:00	rplevy	create an impl ns
18:00	rplevy	the chapter with that in it is one of the free ones if you don't have the book but I recommend the book
18:00	fil512	I have the book
18:01	fil512	I just discovered defn- from reading this book and that is what prompted my question
18:01	tremolo	fil512: you can use the @#'my.stuff/myvar form
18:01	rplevy	so the idea to recap is you don't need to make your non-public functions private, just refer the vars from a non-API ns
18:01	Chousuke	I think defn- is mostly there to prevent anyone from accidentally using your function
18:01	rplevy	problem solved
18:01	Chousuke	you shouldn't use it too much
18:02	rplevy	Chousuke: it is for being declarative about your API
18:02	Chousuke	declarative? :/
18:02	rplevy	I think so
18:02	rplevy	in my humble opinion
18:02	emezeske	Chousuke: defn- == "Don't use this function, it's liable to change, and isn't part of the public api"
18:03	Chousuke	I would use it for some small helper functions that don't really need to get tested but are not public API either.
18:03	rplevy	emezeske: exactly what I'm saying
18:03	gtrak	rplevy: if you want a declarative api, maybe use 'declare' too much :-)
18:03	fil512	so I split my ns into two ns? one "public" and the other "private?"
18:03	Chousuke	emezeske: defn doesn't imply the opposite either, though.
18:03	rplevy	I prefer (defn ^:private ...
18:03	emezeske	Chousuke: It does to me...
18:04	rplevy	because you can use it with def, defmacro, etc
18:04	Chousuke	emezeske: public API is what you document it to be
18:04	Chousuke	defn implies nothing
18:04	rplevy	defn to me does imply public api, unless you are not saying that the ns is part of your api
18:04	emezeske	Chousuke: Right, and the API is documented by metadata
18:04	emezeske	Chousuke: If you don't mark something as :private, it will get used.
18:05	tremolo	fil512: just to recap, if you have a private method "defn- bar" in the "foo" ns, you should be able to get to it form your tests with @#'foo/bar
18:05	tremolo	*from
18:05	hiredman	even if you mark it as private I will use it
18:05	rplevy	emezeske: that is by far the consensus in the community too
18:05	emezeske	hiredman: hahaha
18:05	ivan	is conjing arbitrary keys to a record undefined behavior? or supported?
18:05	Chousuke	emezeske: you might not be able to mark it as private if you use it within your own namespaces, even if it's not intended as public API
18:05	hiredman	I don't care how you've documented you api, what accessors you've declared or whatever
18:05	hiredman	if I need it I will use
18:06	hiredman	it
18:06	fil512	I feel like I'm hearing two different approaches: one use defn- and then for testing use @#'foo/bar to get at it, the other is to split my namespace into two namespaces, one public one private and handle it that way--is that correct?
18:06	emezeske	hiredman: oh, I hear you. The point is, though, if I break backwards compat on a :private var, you can't complain. Or, you can, but I won't listen :)
18:06	hiredman	and curse the name of anyone or thing that makes it harder to do
18:06	trptcolin	i thought the preferred way was to cut & paste code from project to project
18:06	trptcolin	:trollface:
18:06	hiredman	trptcolin: if I need to
18:06	Chousuke	fil512: either works, it depends on what you need
18:07	trptcolin	hiredman: ditto
18:07	fil512	which option is more common?
18:07	Chousuke	if you have just a couple defn- functions you can just circumvent the "encapsulation" (there is none, in reality) and test it
18:07	tremolo	fil512: if you're just testing, the @#'foo/bar approach is fine. in fact, it's recommended in the clojure/core style guide
18:07	Chousuke	otherwise, you might want a namespace that you document as "private"
18:07	technomancy	fil512: my approach is to mark internal defns with ^:internal metadata
18:07	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/424732436c34de48ca29f04a4f2f7a6ea02b613a/src/hiredman/triples.clj#L29
18:08	technomancy	it doesn't do anything to the compiler, but it communicates to the reader
18:08	fil512	the @#'foo/bar option looks messy
18:08	fil512	I like the two namespace option
18:08	fil512	are there conventions to indicate which namespaces are public and which private?
18:08	emezeske	I like technomancy's approach.
18:09	rplevy	hiredman: I think it's fine to violate API if you do it with self-awareness of this fact, and that is only possibly by having that distinction
18:10	fil512	guess not
18:10	fil512	well gtg.
18:10	fil512	thanks for your help!
18:10	Chousuke	I like technomancy's approach too
18:10	Chousuke	you can't prevent anyone from using your private functions, so why complicate things for yourself :P
18:11	rplevy	I like that idea
18:11	hiredman	rplevy: shrug
18:11	technomancy	I hope it takes off so that doc tools know to ignore internal functions.
18:13	rplevy	I also augment fogus's impl ns idea by marking internal ns with ^:impl. "internal" is probably better, both for ns and for vars
18:15	dwierenga	can anyone recommend a blog entry or something on how to use the repl to speed up development? everyone seems to rave about how much it helps and i just don't get how. i feel like i'm missing something fundamental that is just obvious to others and isn't to me...
18:17	Chousuke	dwierenga: write a function, test the function in the repl immediately, and if it works, write more functions :p
18:18	gtrak	dwierenga: it's really helpful just to try stuff, in emacs you can C-x e and it'll send the last form behind the cursor to the repl
18:18	Chousuke	you can also define whatever temporary variables you need at any time, eg. a vector of test input
18:18	dwierenga	Chousuke: ok... but i don't get how that's dramatically superior to just running your code..
18:18	Chousuke	you don't need to put it in the source file, though a common thing to do is to have some code inside a comment form
18:18	Chousuke	dwierenga: it's faster and more flexible.
18:19	Chousuke	you can also affect the behaviour of a running application with the repl
18:19	technomancy	replaca's talk on Flow at the first conj might be a good starting point
18:19	Chousuke	that's not possible with compile and run style development
18:20	dwierenga	gtrak: oh.. i use gvim on windows. haven't managed to get vim hooked up to the repl
18:20	gtrak	that'll probably help, until you do, you're limited to copy/paste
18:21	gtrak	dwierenga: you should watch the game of life screencast maybe? it's a good example
18:22	gtrak	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgsAztXDuH0
18:22	dwierenga	gtrak: will do, thanks!
18:29	dwierenga	gtrak: ok, yeah.. that's spiffiness i don't currently have.
18:30	gtrak	he made the return vals show up inline, but the normal setup just shows it in the emacs minibuffer
18:30	mwillhite	exit
18:37	rlb	gfredericks: not sure keep-indexed can (easily) do what I want after all -- in this case, I want to find the index of the last item that's less then the previous item, if there is one.
18:38	rlb	s/then/than/
18:42	rplevy	I think putting :aot in a deploy profile is probably the best solution to avoiding AOT woes during development, rather than running lein clean all the time
18:42	technomancy	clojure.tools.logging doesn't let you set the level at runtime, does it?
18:42	technomancy	rplevy: yes, definitely
18:44	technomancy	because it can't be implemented consistently across some of the annoying backends?
18:45	technomancy	java the albatross =\
18:46	McMartin	I miss tail call elimination every day
18:48	rplevy	technomancy: thanks, I find this to be much cleaner. btw, in preview-4 I got errors running :prep-tasks ["clean"], but I didn't look into it much, probably something I was doing wrong.
18:49	technomancy	rplevy: hm; can you open an issue?
18:49	rplevy	ok I will do that
18:50	technomancy	I haven't tried customizing prep-tasks, but I can't think of a reason it shouldn't work
18:53	amalloy	rlb: i think you want partition
18:54	amalloy	&(let [coll '(1 3 2 5 4 7)] (keep-indexed (fn [i [a b]] (when (< a b) (inc i))) coll))
18:54	lazybot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Long
18:55	amalloy	&(let [coll '(1 3 2 5 4 7)] (last (keep-indexed (fn [i [a b]] (when (< a b) (inc i))) (partition 2 1 coll))))
18:55	lazybot	⇒ 5
19:03	dnolen	another boost to satisfies? lands in CLJS master - the perf hit for calling fn through to protocol fn gets ever smaller.
19:09	ieure	Hmm.
19:09	ieure	So in this Compojure route
19:09	ieure	I have (parse-stream (reader (:body req)))
19:09	ieure	Using [cheshire.core :only [parse-stream parse-string]] [clojure.java.io :only [reader]]
19:09	ieure	This always returns null.
19:09	ieure	Seems wrong. Has anyone gotten this to work before?
19:10	dakrone	ieure: try (parse-stream (input-stream (reader (:body req))))
19:10	nDuff	My routes which need to refer to the body look like so: (PUT "/wherever" [:as {body :body}] ...)
19:10	technomancy	or parse-string on slurping the body
19:12	ieure	dakrone, java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Cannot open <#<BufferedReader java.io.BufferedReader@3668ad91>> as an InputStream.
19:12	ieure	Er
19:12	ieure	My fault on that
19:12	ieure	Probably
19:12	ieure	What I see in the request is :body #<HttpInput org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpInput@65012945>
19:12	dakrone	ieure: are you using clj-http?
19:12	ieure	HttpInput is a subclass of InputStream already
19:13	carllerche	so… this may sound insane, but is there a way to hook into the byte code loading of clojure.core functions?
19:13	cjz	what is the ^ in (def ^:dynamic x 1)
19:13	ieure	dakrone, No.
19:13	ieure	cjz, What's the name of the character, or what does it mean to Clojure?
19:13	cjz	what does it mean to Clojure
19:13	ieure	cjz, It's a reader macro
19:14	ieure	cjz, http://clojure.org/reader#The%20Reader--Macro%20characters
19:15	dakrone	ieure: cheshire should work fine on BufferedReaders itself: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/blob/master/test/cheshire/test/core.clj#L122 does the reader need to be opened?
19:15	McMartin	Is there a way to get a byte-based input stream out of a string without ducking down to Java? input-stream seems to insist on treating the string as a file/URL.
19:15	raek	ieure: readers are for text, input-streams are for binary data
19:15	cjz	thank you ieure
19:15	ieure	cjz, You
19:15	ieure	*You're welcome
19:16	raek	you can turn an input-stream into a readed, but not the other way around
19:16	raek	*reader
19:16	McMartin	raek: Right. In Java you can however turn a String into a byte[] by handing it an encoding, and then build an InputStream around that
19:16	McMartin	I can obviously do that with .. in Clojure, but is there a Clojure-native way of doing it?
19:17	raek	McMartin: yes, using the java api
19:17	raek	via interop
19:17	ieure	dakrone, Does not appear to be correct; (parse-stream (:body req)) -> java.lang.ClassCastException: org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpInput cannot be cast to java.io.Reader
19:17	raek	(ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes some-string "UTF-8))
19:17	McMartin	raek: Right, that's the solution I ended up using, was curious if I could do it without interop (since you don't need it for the other)
19:18	McMartin	I actually used input-stream there instead of ByteArrayInputStream. and it worked, though that might be more reflective
19:18	raek	yeah, that should work too
19:18	dakrone	ieure: and (with-open [rdr (reader (:body req))] (parse-stream rdr)) doesn't work?
19:19	raek	input-stream is mostly sugar for calling the correct method to acquire the stream (for example .getInputStream on a socket) and wrapping the stream in a BufferedInputStream
19:19	ieure	technomancy, (parse-string (slurp (:body req))) doesn't error out, but it returns null.
19:19	raek	its primary purpose is to eliminate most of the boilerplate code you need to write in java
19:20	ieure	lul
19:20	dakrone	ieure: what is (slurp (:body req)) returning then? is it an actual string? just 'null'?
19:20	raek	clojure.java.io does not abstract away java io
19:21	technomancy	ieure: better check to make sure req is what you think it is then
19:21	ieure	technomancy, I did.
19:21	ieure	:body #<HttpInput org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpInput@798a6dd4>
19:21	ieure	:content-length 28
19:22	technomancy	how about just (slurp (:body req))
19:23	amalloy	i'm hoping for "null // 21 character comments"
19:24	tmciver	reconnecting to a previously-connected-to swank session and running (ns-publics ns) shows my previously-defined vars. But when I try to evaluate one, I get #<Unbound Unbound: #'my-ns/my-var>. How do I re-bind them?
19:25	ieure	technomancy, https://gist.github.com/d0944ab7cc5c198c6166
19:25	ieure	I don't think I'm crazy here.
19:26	ieure	There's a (log/debug req) above that let form
19:26	technomancy	looks like an empty body
19:26	technomancy	I wonder if :content-length includes HTTP headers
19:26	amalloy	i have to say, it looks like the input is empty and someone is lying about content-length
19:26	amalloy	technomancy: it shouldn't
19:27	ieure	technomancy, amalloy, I'm just using curl to send this request
19:27	ieure	curl --trace-ascii shows it sending 28 bytes of body
19:27	technomancy	there's no good logging library for Java that allows you to set the level at runtime is there?
19:28	technomancy	giving up on clojure.tools.logging, thought I'd ask before I give up and just call println after checking level
19:28	ieure	Okay so
19:28	ieure	For some reason
19:28	ieure	Omitting the content-type makes it all blow up
19:28	emezeske	technomancy: I consistently feel like java has made logging a bigger ordeal than it needs to be
19:28	dakrone	technomancy: we set it dynamically with log4j
19:29	technomancy	dakrone: is it an ordeal?
19:30	dakrone	technomancy: see pm
19:31	technomancy	thanks dakrone
19:31	technomancy	the equivalent in j.u.Logging is a pit of despair
19:44	kwertii	technomancy: is there a better way to add a lein-git-dependency to the project than using :source-paths on its src/ dir in Lein 2?
19:45	technomancy	there's not really any good way to do dependencies using git (in any language)
19:45	technomancy	I mean there's checkout dependencies, but that's different
19:46	kwertii	right.. I'm looking at the lein-git-deps plugin, which does mostly what I need (except for recursive dependencies)
19:46	kwertii	Ruby Bundler is very nice as far as Git deps go
19:46	technomancy	not according to the maintainers =\
19:46	kwertii	heh. I never maintained it, just used it, and never ran into any issues
19:47	kwertii	I can imagine it must be a pain
19:47	tmciver	I see now that my unbound var issue is only with one of the vars - the server returned by the run-jetty function. I did not pass {:join? false} so the call did not return (and the var not bound to the symbol), which is why I killed slime in the first place.
19:47	hiredman	calling ruby bundler "nice" is something that is sure yo get you sighed at
19:47	hiredman	to
19:48	kwertii	hiredman: I suppose "nice" is a relative term. It's nicer than what we were all doing before bundler, which was trying to maintain a DLL Hell-esque systemwide mess of gems or hacked together custom versioning solutions.
19:49	kwertii	I am frequently faced with a case where some bugfix or new feature I need exists in a Git master branch or on somebody's fork, but hasn't been packaged up. If the maintainer isn't really into the project, it's sometimes months before it gets released
19:50	technomancy	using git for dependencies is really only appropriate during development
19:50	technomancy	that's what checkout deps are for
19:50	hiredman	ditch or fork
19:51	technomancy	if you have to deploy with an unreleased change, you need to cut your own release
19:51	technomancy
19:52	kwertii	What's the etiquette for that? fork it and push my own foo-prime release to clojars?
19:52	emezeske	kwertii: If you're just using it locally, you can just "lein install" it, without pushing to clojars
19:53	hiredman	kwertii: clojars will namespace non-canonical forks (aslong as the canonical version is there already)
19:53	technomancy	if you have your own private repo it's better to publish there
19:53	kwertii	hiredman: interesting. didn't know that. that sounds perfect
19:53	technomancy	but it's not necessary
19:53	hiredman	maven has group-ids and project-ids, lein typically keeps them the same, but they don't have to be
19:54	hiredman	it is also pretty easy to run your own maven repo
19:54	hiredman	you can just copy the relevent bits of your .m2 to s3
19:55	hiredman	if the library is written in clojure you can even just rewrite particular functions and redefine them
19:56	kwertii	having this information out there would probably help a lot of people and increase our general library update velocity. is this written up anywhere? if not, I'll write it up now
19:58	jtoy	so i just want to confirm ,for keyword arguments in clojure: http://stuartsierra.com/2010/01/15/keyword-arguments-in-clojure (defn foo [a b & options] (let [opts (apply hash-map options)] ….. is the recommended way?
19:59	hiredman	jtoy: you are kidding right?
19:59	jtoy	hiredman: im a clojure newb,
19:59	hiredman	jtoy: have you read what you just linked to?
19:59	jtoy	yes
19:59	hiredman	try again
19:59	jtoy	he said the first example is preferred
20:00	kwertii	So to push a non-mainline release of some already published library, I edit pom.xml and change the group id? or will it autodetect that?
20:00	jtoy	hiredman: he says his blog post is wrong
20:00	technomancy	kwertii: try `lein help deploying`
20:00	kwertii	technomancy: thanks
20:03	jtoy	?
20:09	TimMc	jtoy: I don't know what hiredman is trying to say. I mean, I happen to disagree with stuart, but that is what stuart is saying.
20:10	jtoy	TimMc: what way to do you recommend? I don't want to write several different versions of the function, i want to use something like a vector and set default args
20:13	kwertii	added instructions on deploying forks to my fork of lein-git-deps README. Thanks guys.
20:16	TimMc	jtoy: It turns out to be annoying to call such functions with a map of options. apply doesn't work on maps the way one might hope.
20:17	emezeske	jtoy: I'm pretty sure the most common idiom, if you really want to do that, is (defn f [a b c & {:keys [x y z]}] ...), or so
20:18	emezeske	jtoy: I agree with TimMc, though, in that it's pretty annoying. I generally prefer just passing a map in.
20:19	jtoy	emezeske: do you guys know a good blog page that explains that ? jstu so i can understand exactly how it works
20:20	emezeske	jtoy: I don't unfortunately.
20:20	jtoy	k,thx
20:22	emezeske	jtoy: Maybe this is helpful? Or at least gives you some more things to google: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3337888/clojure-named-arguments
20:22	jtoy	emezeske: awesome!
20:24	McMartin	I got a lot of mileage out of map bindings but that's not quite what you're looking for here
20:24	McMartin	Ooh, destructured rest
20:28	jtoy	so for their example: (defn blah [& {:keys [key1 key2 key3]}] (str key1 key2 key3)) to set default values would I just do (let final_key1 (if (nil? key1) "default value" key1)) and do that for every variable or is there a better way?
20:29	McMartin	Better was is later int he article:
20:29	emezeske	jtoy: You want to use :or I think
20:30	McMartin	Yeah
20:30	McMartin	Also, if-let is better than (let [foo (if (nil? exp) 'default exp)]...
20:31	emezeske	&((fn [& {:keys [a b c] :or {c 42}}] [a b c]) :a 1 :b 2)
20:31	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 42]
20:32	emezeske	jtoy: ^
20:36	jtoy	emezeske: cool, can I set multiple items with or like that? that seems like the best way to set everything up
20:37	emezeske	jtoy: Yep!
20:37	emezeske	&((fn [& {:keys [a b c] :or {c 42 d 100}}] [a b c]) :a 1 :b 2)
20:37	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 42]
20:37	emezeske	&((fn [& {:keys [a b c] :or {c 42 d 100}}] [a b c d]) :a 1 :b 2)
20:37	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: d in this context
20:38	emezeske	&((fn [& {:keys [a b c d] :or {c 42 d 100}}] [a b c d]) :a 1 :b 2)
20:38	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 42 100]
20:38	emezeske	There we go
21:36	timvisher	hey all
21:36	timvisher	what mode is it that gets me the function argument possibilities in the mini-buffer in emacs?
21:36	timvisher	mine seems to work 50/50 but i don't know how to debug because i'm not even sure what it is
21:40	gfredericks	light-table-mode
21:42	arohner	timvisher: slime-mode
22:03	danlarkin	greetings humans
22:04	danlarkin	I just pushed https://github.com/danlarkin/clabango
22:04	amalloy	timvisher: eldoc-mode
22:05	timvisher	amalloy: Yes! thank you so much
22:05	timvisher	now i just need to track down why it seems to randomly enable and disable itself
22:05	foxdonut	danlarkin: no docs?
22:05	danlarkin	foxdonut: well, there are tests :)
22:05	danlarkin	I know, terrible answer
22:06	danlarkin	no, no docs yet
22:07	foxdonut	danlarkin: I know, writing docs is no fun, but if you want to get people interested.. you need at least an example on the front page so that people might decide "hmm, I want to learn more about this library.."
22:08	foxdonut	my 2c anyway.
22:08	danlarkin	you're right
22:09	danlarkin	maybe a brownie will write docs for me :)
22:10	foxdonut	heh
22:34	Kowboy	so, i have a good question
22:35	Kowboy	is it possible, in a test case, to mock a function called by the function you are testing?
22:35	Kowboy	how would this be done?
22:36	Kowboy	so, the func I am testing is ns1/func1 and it calls ns2/func2 internally
22:36	metellus	Kowboy: with binding
22:36	Kowboy	I want to mock ns2/func2
22:37	metellus	(binding [func2 mocked-func2] (func1 a b))
22:37	brehaut	that only works for dynamic vars though
22:37	metellus	I knew I was missing something
22:37	Kowboy	crap
22:38	metellus	sorry
22:38	technomancy	use with-redefs
22:39	technomancy	or Rodney Leonard Stubbs: https://github.com/technomancy/rodney-leonard-stubbs
22:39	brehaut	technomancy: your libs have the best names
22:39	technomancy	"He was the Thomas Edison of handing a dude his ass."
22:40	Kowboy	technomancy, looking at this lein bug about proxy settings
22:40	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01272006
22:40	technomancy	Kowboy: oh, great
22:40	Kowboy	was hoping to mock up classpath/get-proxy-settings
22:41	Kowboy	since System.setEnv() doesn't exist
22:41	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com/paste/2834 Oh my God oh my God oh my God! Light table code on refheap!
22:41	clojurebot	sharing code between client and server is not as simple or great as it sounds: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2011/03/30/js-on-server-and-client-is-not-a-big-deal/
22:42	gfredericks	technomancy: that library makes me really want to make other libs with namespace of rodney.* or rodney.leonard.*
22:42	technomancy	gfredericks: http://clojars.org/groups/robert
22:42	McMartin	I hope the Rodney Leonard Stubbs library is for ripping the entire middles out of functions.
22:43	technomancy	Kowboy: with-redefs is your best bet there
22:44	Kowboy	I'll give it a shot
22:44	gfredericks	technomancy: I assume you've applied for the .robert TLD
22:44	gfredericks	if anybody else gets it first sue'em
22:44	Kowboy	here is one case where the JVM doesn't let you create the side-effect
22:49	technomancy	"Listen, man. You know how I agreed to stop calling the police about your animatronic Nativity scene? I got a favor to ask." <3 achewood
22:50	gfredericks	technomancy: please write a library that makes us all prolific readers
22:50	brehaut	just dont write a library that makes me have to read stephenson
22:51	technomancy	brehaut: I think liebke covered that one?
22:51	brehaut	haha
22:51	brehaut	maybe he did
23:01	amalloy	oh, is avout a reference to anathem? i didn't see the relevance
23:07	Kowboy	technomancy, I'm assuming the right way to do this is to reuse classpath/get-proxy-settings and adding those to the jvm-args inside of eval/get-jvm-args
23:08	Kowboy	as -Dhttp.proxyHost=foo
23:08	Kowboy	etc.
23:08	technomancy	Kowboy: yeah, that's the idea
23:08	Kowboy	OK, I think I have it then, just need to test
23:10	Kowboy	(with-redefs [classpath/get-proxy-settings (constantly {:host "foo.com" :port "8080"})] ....)
23:10	Kowboy	seems to work
23:12	Kowboy	unit test passes! Now to install a build of lein2 and test it manually
23:12	technomancy	you should be able to just run bin/lein test
23:12	technomancy	provided you've bootstrapped your checkout
23:16	Kowboy	well I launched the repl, but forgot I don't have a proxy setting. DOH!
23:17	Kowboy	best place to test this would be at work, where they have a super insane firewall
23:17	technomancy	yeah, it's always hard to find people to test the proxy features =)
23:18	Kowboy	I think I complained about proxy features before
23:18	Kowboy	something about the downloading of lein's own deps
23:19	eggsby	woah flask in light table, you rule ibdknox
23:20	Kowboy	ah, it was lein plugin install that didn't use proxy settings
23:20	Kowboy	fixed 4 months ago
23:20	Kowboy	but yeah, I got hit by that one
23:21	Kowboy	so, would you prefer if I use rodney for mocking (classpath/get-proxy-settings)???
23:21	lazybot	Kowboy: How could that be wrong?
23:22	Kowboy	did I confuse lazybot?
23:22	brehaut	i dont think so??
23:22	lazybot	brehaut: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
23:23	amalloy	i think lazybot gave you a pretty good answer tbh
23:25	technomancy	Kowboy: no, if with-redefs works then that's simpler
23:25	technomancy	no need to pull in a library for this
23:25	Kowboy	ok
23:50	Kowboy	technomancy, I've pushed to my fork, but I'll test it tomorrow before I send you a pull
23:51	technomancy	Kowboy: great; thanks!
23:57	Kowboy	ok, I
23:58	Kowboy	I'm out, see ya later