#clojure – 2012-05-21

2012-05-21

00:00	emezeske	technomancy: Offhand it doesn't seem like a whole lot of the code
00:00	emezeske	technomancy: Most of it looks like it's related to serializing/execing/etc
00:00	emezeske	technomancy: The actual HTTP server loop is pretty compact
00:00	emezeske	technomancy: Oh, are we talking about for clojurescript? I am
00:01	technomancy	yeah
00:01	technomancy	wondering what needs to happen to make it work in gjs
00:01	emezeske	what's gjs?
00:06	amalloy	emezeske: technomancy's been doing gnome extensions, i assume that's gjs
00:06	dherman	dnolen: ping
00:06	emezeske	amalloy: ah, cool, thanks
00:09	technomancy	yeah, it's gnome's spidermonkey
00:10	technomancy	I guess it would probably look a lot like the node one
00:10	dnolen	dherman: pong
00:11	emezeske	technomancy: I was just about to suggest looking at the node one
00:11	dherman	dnolen: hey, I was poking around clojurescript design pages.. mostly they just say "no concurrency" -- are there plans to support some of clojure's concurrency constructs at some point?
00:11	technomancy	emezeske: does that live in a separate project or branch or something?
00:12	technomancy	emezeske: or maybe I was looking in lein-cljsbuild which is the wrong place?
00:12	emezeske	technomancy: I think a branch; you might ask dnolen, I think he was working on that
00:12	emezeske	technomancy: ah, yeah, that's in some upstream clojurescript branch
00:12	dnolen	dherman: I think that can/will only happen as much browsers provide supporting constructs.
00:12	emezeske	technomancy: I plan to eventually integrate it into cljsbuild, or at least I have a plan to plan to do that
00:12	dnolen	as much as
00:12	technomancy	emezeske: is it fair to say lein-cljsbuild currently only targets browsers then?
00:12	dherman	dnolen: well, it could happen with deeper compilation, but I imagine that would be slow
00:13	dnolen	dherman: yes not really interesting in providing our own concurrency layer.
00:13	dherman	sure
00:13	dnolen	interested
00:13	emezeske	technomancy: Sort of. I think some people use it to compile for node, but with no node repl it's not that swanky
00:14	dherman	dnolen: thx. preparing some slides for a preso about compiling to JS
00:14	technomancy	emezeske: so it's not an intentional decision?
00:14	dherman	don't wanna misrepresent anyone
00:14	emezeske	technomancy: No, definitely not. Just limited time/interest on my part
00:14	technomancy	sure
00:14	dnolen	dherman: cool! where you presenting?
00:14	dherman	"web rebels"
00:14	dherman	http://webrebels.org/
00:15	emezeske	technomancy: I'd love to pull in node/etc support, if someone with a higher interest and knowledge in that area put it together
00:15	emezeske	technomancy: As it stands, I just do browser stuff personally, so I'd be slow to add that
00:16	technomancy	I don't know the first thing about gjs, but I hate all desktops that don't have a repl
00:16	dnolen	dherman: very interested in seeing some sort of task parallel JS thing happening - but not sure how much vendor interest there is in that.
00:16	technomancy	s/desktops/programs/ I guess
00:16	technomancy	so hopefully my hate can be channeled into something productive
00:16	emezeske	hahaha
00:17	dherman	dnolen: we're very motivated, and tc39 has shown interest so far
00:17	emezeske	that's a kind of hate that I can get behind
00:17	technomancy	programs without repls: completely loathsome.
00:17	dherman	dnolen: though we haven't yet gotten any other vendors to sign up for a more active role yet
00:18	dherman	dnolen: er, sorry
00:18	dherman	task parallel
00:18	dherman	I was thinking data parallel
00:18	dherman	dnolen: we've got an intern starting this week who'll be working on task parallelism for JS
00:18	dherman	but we don't know yet how it'll pan out
00:19	dnolen	dherman: would be more excited about Workers but clone overhead makes it worthless for building on top of for us.
00:19	dherman	I see
00:19	dherman	yeah, workers are expensive
00:19	dnolen	dherman: wish there was some way to avoid that, we have persistent data structures.
00:20	dherman	dnolen: there's an API for transfering ownership but I don't think that helps you
00:20	dherman	transferring?
00:20	dnolen	dherman: nope, because we want free reads.
00:20	technomancy	maybe I'm just tainted by the fact that the main repl-less program I'm stuck using is skype
00:20	technomancy	but it's just so wretched
00:20	technomancy	what really bums me out is that people put up with this crap even though they should know better
00:22	dherman	dnolen: I have a stupid question. how do you do the memory management of shared persistent data structures? concurrent GC?
00:22	dnolen	dherman: we leave it up to the host JS engine.
00:22	dherman	I guess I meant in Clojure, but the answer's obvious: JVM
00:22	dnolen	dherman: but we also provide lower level constructs too.
00:23	dherman	you don't actually have parallel data structures in cljs
00:23	dherman	oh, you can with copying
00:23	dnolen	dherman: yeah JVM manages them pretty well, not too many complaints in the past 5 years.
00:23	technomancy	I guess you pick your battles. =\
00:24	dnolen	dherman: we don't need parallel data structures
00:24	dnolen	dherman: that's the whole point of rhickey's reducer work.
00:24	dherman	I thought that's what you were talking about
00:24	dherman	dnolen: you have to forgive my great distance from the clojure world
00:24	dnolen	dherman: we go data parallel the moment we have task parellelism.
00:24	dherman	I only have very cursory understanding of the data strucutres and concurrency models
00:25	dnolen	dherman: the latest work is based on Guy Steele's talk on foldl foldr considered harmful.
00:25	dherman	oh that's such an awesome talk
00:25	dnolen	dherman: we're ready for data parallelism on any host w/ task parellelism.
00:25	dnolen	dherman: no new data structures required
00:25	dherman	can you explain?
00:26	dnolen	dherman: we already have persistent data structures - trees.
00:26	dnolen	dherman: reducer framework is purely aglorithmic. We don't need new data structures.
00:27	dnolen	just a way to divide up the work, reduce + combine in parallel. host stuff.
00:27	dherman	ok, so the reducer framework is all implemented in pure clojure
00:27	dnolen	dherman: yes
00:28	dherman	but I thought you were saying at first, you don't have a way of implementing persistent data structures that could be shared between workers in JS without copying
00:28	dherman	s/at first/at first was/
00:28	dnolen	dherman: perhaps I'm mistaken, but the copying is imposed by Workers right?
00:28	dherman	yes
00:28	dherman	except for transfer of ownership, but that doesn't give you sharing
00:29	dnolen	dherman: yeah that's horrible. We are giving workers something that doesn't need to be copied :)
00:29	dherman	right
00:29	dherman	so I was just thinking to myself,
00:29	dherman	is there some minimal API we could add, that doesn't require new deep semantic concepts in JS
00:29	dherman	but the sticking point is that it would require concurrent GC
00:29	dherman	basically I was thinking:
00:30	dherman	1) allocate something in OS shared memory that's owned by one worker
00:30	dherman	2) allow it to mutate it at will
00:30	dherman	3) when it's done initializing it, deep freeze it
00:30	dherman	4) then allow sharing it between workers
00:30	dherman	that's hand-wavy, b/c JS objects don't like being deeply frozen
00:30	dherman	they're all intertwingled via prototype goo
00:31	dherman	so I'm not even sure that's coherent
00:31	dherman	but it seems the biggest issue is that it would require concurrent GC
00:33	dnolen	dherman: I know hardly anything about GC - I guess JDK fork/join requires concurrent GC?
00:34	dherman	I'd think just JDK threads require concurrent GC
00:34	dherman	guess it depends what level concurrency we're talking
00:36	dherman	hm. y'know what, I believe we are working on a concurrent GC. maybe this is becoming more standard
00:37	dherman	dnolen: I'll speak with colleagues about this. persistent, shared data structures would be so awesome
00:37	dnolen	dherman: I'm not sure if it makes any difference but the reducer framework is about being alloation free.
00:37	dnolen	dherman: YES
00:37	dnolen	allocation
00:39	dnolen	dherman: too bad rhickey isn't around, he'd probably have much more insightful points about all this :P
00:39	dherman	no worries, it's late
00:39	dherman	now I know there's a freenode channel
00:39	dherman	I'll try not to be a stranger
00:39	dnolen	dherman: thanks!
00:40	dherman	judging from his accent, I assume rich lives in NY or NJ, yes?
00:40	dnolen	dherman: yeah NY
00:41	dnolen	dherman: hopefully we can talk about this sooner rather than later - but we'll also all be at StrangeLoop I see.
00:42	dherman	yeah, I'll definitely see you then, but drop me a line on IRC any time. I'm on irc.mozilla.org every day, but I'll hang out here too
00:42	dnolen	dherman: will do
00:42	dnolen	dherman: a specific channel?
00:43	dherman	irc.mozilla.org: #jslang, #jsapi, #research, #lljs, #rust
00:43	dherman	but doesn't matter
01:17	muhoo	grr, i foundd the limit of the compojure-route approach. they don't get assoc'ed into a map, they just get conj'ed onto the end of a list.
01:18	muhoo	so it's kind of a pain to reload them.
01:19	wkmanire	join #refheap
01:20	wkmanire	I swear erc eat's my characters if I don't wait for it to load.
01:21	muhoo	vector actually.
01:22	wkmanire	eats* bleh
01:23	banseljaj	hey wkmanire
01:24	wkmanire	banseljaj: Good morning ~Doctor
01:24	banseljaj	I actually went a head and made an experimental linux distro off of Open Suse. :D
01:25	wkmanire	banseljaj: Why'd you have to use Suse?
01:25	wkmanire	I don't know Suse very well.
01:25	banseljaj	No particular reason apar tform the fact that it gave a convenient tool to build distros in the cloud.
01:25	banseljaj	wkmanire: it's just like RHEL
01:26	wkmanire	I also don't know RHEL.
01:26	wkmanire	I use Debian and Debian variants.
01:26	wkmanire	Currently using Linux Mint.
01:26	banseljaj	I (heart) debian
01:26	banseljaj	But it was an experiment. just to see what would be needed.
01:26	wkmanire	I see.
01:27	wkmanire	Does it work?
01:27	banseljaj	Currently it only has packages.
01:27	banseljaj	I just finished building it.
01:27	banseljaj	I'll know by the end of today
01:27	wkmanire	I hope it does work.
01:27	wkmanire	I really do think this is a great idea.
01:28	banseljaj	Yeah.
01:28	banseljaj	It would require a truckload of work though
01:28	banseljaj	Suse doesn' have leiningen, for example
01:28	banseljaj	:(
01:28	banseljaj	So i'll have to build an rpm.
01:28	wkmanire	Well that doesn't mean you can't install it.
01:28	banseljaj	Not from a repo, no.
01:29	wkmanire	bah. Why? You're in control of the distro, just pre install it.
01:29	banseljaj	wkmanire: I'll probably make an rpm of lein. :D
01:29	wkmanire	But to install it you just run a shell script
01:29	wkmanire	and it does the rest.
01:29	banseljaj	If it doesn't work, i'll just use Arch.
01:29	banseljaj	wkmanire: Yup.
01:39	ambrosebs	gfredericks: might be interested in a sample of the types I devised for rest/next/first/conj https://gist.github.com/2760648
01:53	muhoo	debian is pretty awesome. though technomancy found this fascinating distro-overlay that is kind of like immutable packages
01:53	muhoo	it's like if you took clojure structural sharing, couchdb revs, and git, and made a package manager out of them
01:54	raek	nix?
01:54	clojurebot	nix is a purely functional package manager exhibiting many similar characteristics to Clojure's persistent data structures or git commit trees: http://nixos.org/nix/
01:56	muhoo	that's the one
02:07	y3di	https://twitpic.com/show/large/9nild1 -- guess God really does use lisp
02:07	lnostdal	hi guys, is it possible to determine whether a binding was conveyed automatically (1.3+) to a thread (agent/future) or bound explicitly within that thread?
02:07	ivan	y3di: haha
02:08	muhoo	exceptions in the ns macro are fun fun fun
02:08	muhoo	it's like 20 pages
02:09	ivan	someone should make an Clojure traceback decoder with every mistake you could make
02:09	ivan	forgetting the argument vector sure leads to an interesting one
02:10	muhoo	yep, some typo or another
02:10	michaelr`	y3di: the first thing that came to mind: "what is this? the horns of devil?"
02:11	ambrosebs	ivan: relevant: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-157
02:22	michaelr`	ambrosebs: why (if(if instead of (if (not ?
02:24	ambrosebs	not isn't bound at this point
02:24	michaelr`	oh
02:24	michaelr`	:)
02:24	ambrosebs	:P
02:26	ambrosebs	michaelr`: It's probably because we don't have "and" here either
02:33	lnostdal	am i the only one who thinks automatic binding conveyance is a bad idea? .. or, i really do not understand how others cope with it (db connections long ago closed hang around across agents etc. etc.)
02:49	michaelr`	lnostdal: binding conveyance? can you point at a sample code?
02:54	lnostdal	yes, michaelr` https://www.refheap.com/paste/2813
02:54	lnostdal	something like that
03:07	lnostdal	it's driving me nuts ..
03:12	amalloy	lnostdal: to be fair, lack of binding conveyance also drives people nuts somewhat regularly
03:12	lnostdal	yes, but whitelist ...
03:12	lnostdal	or just, something
03:14	michaelr`	lnostdal: i don't see what's the problem in that code? :)
03:14	lnostdal	michaelr`, k
03:15	michaelr`	if i understand correctly the threads do not share state here, which is great..
03:15	lnostdal	michaelr`, that's not the issue
03:16	lnostdal	(in a sense the problem is exactly the opposite of what you say; threads _do_ share too much state, by default)
03:17	michaelr`	ok, in your example it's not a real db connection..
03:17	lnostdal	right
03:18	lnostdal	if it was, the operations in the agent would sometimes work and sometimes "mysteriously" fail
03:18	lnostdal	racy
03:18	lnostdal	..sometimes people mess up you know
03:19	michaelr`	how can this work otherwise?
03:19	lnostdal	it shouldn't
03:19	lnostdal	it should fail predictably; every time
03:19	lnostdal	that's the problem
03:19	lnostdal	same with open files etc. too
03:20	lnostdal	e.g. (with-open ...)
03:20	michaelr`	what happens here is that you close the connection while another thread is still using it, right?
03:21	lnostdal	yes
03:21	lnostdal	try-finally type stuff
03:22	michaelr`	the correct code should wait for the thread to finish before closing the connection.. so how do you propose to solve this automatically?
03:22	amalloy	how does with-open have anything to do with bindings conveyance?
03:22	lnostdal	pretty common thing to do .. most DB layers i've seen in lisp use a conn dynamic var for context, with a try-finally (or unwind-protect and similar) design
03:23	lnostdal	amalloy, nothing; just to make michaelr` understand that the connection closes in this particular example
03:23	lnostdal	amalloy, well, nothing except with-open uses bindings .. but whatever
03:24	amalloy	no it doesn't. it uses a let
03:24	amalloy	which, okay, you can call lexical bindings, but those aren't relevant to "bindings" in this context
03:24	lnostdal	it does? .. hm, yes it does .. then never mind .. i saw "binding" in the definition
03:25	lnostdal	ok, but the DB lib uses `binding' .. not `let' .. perhaps that's the problem
03:25	lnostdal	not sure what others do .. using java.jdbc here .. do they explicitly pass around the context or the connection?
03:34	lnostdal	nope, that wouldn't make sense either i think .... shrug
03:46	muhoo	that's kinda weird, i never knew you could do map destructuring in reverse
03:46	muhoo	like (defn barg [{baz :params}] baz)
03:47	muhoo	instead of (defn barg [{:params baz}] baz)
03:52	tomoj	only the former works
03:52	tomoj	so I would call that "forward", not "reverse"
03:54	tomoj	it makes sense to bind the value associated to one keyword in a map to two different variables, it does not make sense to bind a single variable to the values associated with two different keywords in the map
03:54	tomoj	so the variables are the keys in the destructuring map form
04:04	muhoo	actually, they both seem to work
04:04	muhoo	which is what i found surprising
04:05	muhoo	oh wait, nm, i see
04:07	muhoo	it's kind of symmetrical, ##(let [{bar :baz} {:baz "bar"}] bar)
04:07	lazybot	⇒ "bar"
04:10	tomoj	I guess if you call building data structures "structuring", then it makes sense
04:11	tomoj	{:baz "bar"} structures and {bar :baz} destructures
05:00	ro_st	cemerick: i'm a little confused about how i'd use friend to secure a json rest api
05:00	cemerick	ro_st: HTTP Basic over SSL is the most common / easiest option.
05:01	ro_st	http basic? could i use that with a mysql user database?
05:01	ro_st	which has salted-hashed-passwords?
05:02	cemerick	sorry; what does mysql have to do with it?
05:02	ro_st	i want to authenticate users with my json service
05:02	mittchel	Hey
05:03	ro_st	and then have that auth information be a part of the request info used in subsequent json calls
05:03	cemerick	ro_st: well, what you use to verify credentials is entirely up to you; friend doesn't care whether that's in mysql, couchdb, in memory, or a flat file.
05:05	cemerick	ro_st: OK, it sounds like you're calling this API from javascript, in a browser then?
05:05	ro_st	yes
05:05	cemerick	In that case, presumably the user is already logged in with a session?
05:05	ro_st	yes, which will also be a json call
05:06	cemerick	so, you just want the provided interactive-form workflow
05:06	cemerick	json is a format, not a calling convention or something.
05:08	ro_st	ok, i'll start digging there. your samples are compojure based. i'm using the webmachine based Bishop library from cmiles. i guess friend would wrap my method that calls bishop/routes?
05:10	cemerick	ro_st: yup, authenticate is just more ring middleware, so it should compose with bishop just fine.
05:13	Mittch	Are you guys recieving this message? Tried to build an IRC client in clojure :o
05:13	ro_st	yup, we can see you
05:14	Mittch	Weird stuff I have to type: PRIVMSG #clojure : mymessage and it's not even a private message
05:15	ivan	that's how IRC works
05:15	Mittch	ro_sti: Can I try to message you?:P
05:16	ro_st	sure
05:16	mittchel	Did it work? lol
05:17	mittchel	Running 2 clients now hehe
05:20	Mittch	/me lol
05:20	mittchel	fails haha
05:21	mittchel	there we go
05:22	ro_st	gah why does wildcard ssl cost so damn much? $200 a year is stupid
05:48	zawzey	hmmm, trying to read a byte[] array from a java lib, but i keep getting truncated data at the 64K (ie: 65536) limit , how do i get arround it
05:52	samaaron	zawzey: what are you reading into?
05:53	zawzey	samaaron: trying a variety of methods, BufferArrayInput, clojure.java.io/reader
05:53	samaaron	also where are you reading from?
05:53	samaaron	a file?
05:54	zawzey	from nutch: http://nutch.apache.org/apidocs-1.2/org/apache/nutch/protocol/Content.html, the getContent() method
05:55	zawzey	i'm to output the read content into a file on the clojure side, but it's getting truncated, so i'm trying to isolate where the issue is
05:55	samaaron	ok, well this is somethign I've never done - so I'm just shooting blind here
05:55	samaaron	i did a quick google and this popped up: http://www.coderanch.com/t/277584/Streams/java/Max-Size-Byte-Array
05:55	samaaron	perhaps it's do do with flushing?
05:58	zawzey	samaaron: hmm, don't think that's the case, but let me dig a bit into the ByteArrayInputStream.
06:08	zawzey	Okay, fwiw, it's nutch's problem, it has a 64K limit setting by default. The documentation for nutch is quite poor to be honest
06:33	ljos	Is it just me or is it really irritating that `str` and `print` does not always force calculation of lazy sequences? I don't really understand when this behaviour would be wanted.
07:04	neotyk	hello everyone!
07:07	samaaron	neotyk: howdy!
07:08	neotyk	samaaron: hello clojurepunk
07:09	samaaron	haha
07:09	neotyk	I'm looking for some early feedback on WebSocket support in http.async.client
07:09	neotyk	if you have time please tell me what you think of https://gist.github.com/2761440
07:24	fliebel	neotyk: Do you have something built-in to put it in a queue/pipe thing rather than a callback?
07:25	neotyk	fliebel: not yet, would you like to have a lazy-seq for reading received stuff?
07:25	fliebel	neotyk: I don't know... I'll have to read the arguments for not using lazy seqs for pipes/queues
07:26	neotyk	fliebel: lamina/channel ?
07:27	fliebel	neotyk: just anything "statefull", java.util.concurrent.BlckingQueue could also do the job.
07:47	timvisher	,(= (long 1) 1)
07:47	clojurebot	true
07:47	hyPiRion	Any form of integer is equal to another.
07:47	timvisher	,(= 1 (read-strng (pr-str (long 1))))
07:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-strng in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
07:47	timvisher	,(= 1 (read-string (pr-str (long 1))))
07:47	clojurebot	true
07:48	timvisher	hmm
07:48	timvisher	hyPiRion: that's my expectation too yet i'm seeing a different behavior in my program at the moment
07:48	hyPiRion	,(= (long 1) (int 1) (byte 1) (short 1) 1 1N (numerator 1/2))
07:48	clojurebot	true
07:48	timvisher	i'm seeing if i can get it to reproduce
07:48	timvisher	,clojure-version
07:48	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
07:48	timvisher	maybe it's because i'm on 1.2?
07:48	hyPiRion	What version of clojure do you have?
07:49	timvisher	i'm serializing an object to a file and then reading it back in
07:49	hyPiRion	Probably. I had issues that BigInteger doesn't equal normal integers
07:49	timvisher	the object has a long `1` in it, but when i compare it to another `1` in a test, it fails
07:49	hyPiRion	For instance, try this in your repl ##(#{2} (denominator 1/2))
07:49	lazybot	⇒ 2
07:50	hyPiRion	It will return nil in clojure 1.2
07:50	timvisher	what does that expression even do?
07:50	timvisher	i'm not used to seeing sets as a function
07:51	hyPiRion	Sets are just hash maps where the key is also the value
07:51	timvisher	and you're correct, of course.
07:51	timvisher	ah, forgot that implementation detail
07:51	timvisher	hmm, might be time to bite the bullet and upgrade then
07:51	timvisher	see if that clears this up
07:51	hyPiRion	Do you use = or do you use == for comparing the numbers?
07:51	timvisher	=
07:52	timvisher	don't believe i've ever had an occasion for using == yet
07:52	hyPiRion	Ah. Well, 1.2 is kind of weird with reading numbers and differences between e.g. BigIntegers and Integers.
07:52	timvisher	so many of the gotchas in clojure that i see are related to numbers
07:53	timvisher	i wish the jvm had done a better job of it. hard problem, though, i suppose
07:54	hyPiRion	It's better in 1.3 though, and I don't think they made any number-changes to 1.4
07:57	fliebel	oh, same problem again. It seems since 1.3, = is not the richt tool to compare all numbers.
07:57	fliebel	== works
08:01	hyPiRion	fliebel: That's just weird.
08:02	fliebel	hyPiRion: I know... I only know that some number types don't compare to others with =, while they do with ==. Don; know why. Probably optimization.
08:05	hyPiRion	fliebel: Yeah, and it's doomed to make people confused.
08:07	fliebel	I agree... I'm trying to figure out what's going on
08:10	fliebel	hyPiRion: so, = calls number/equal, while == calls number/equiv
08:11	fliebel	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L205
08:11	fliebel	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L23
08:14	fliebel	this means that for 2 numbers to compare using =, they need to be of the same type.
08:14	fliebel	&(= 2 2.0)
08:14	lazybot	⇒ false
08:14	fliebel	&(== 2 2.0)
08:14	lazybot	⇒ true
08:15	fliebel	so, it is rather simple, == does a lot more work.
08:16	hyPiRion	fliebel: Well, it's not same type either
08:16	hyPiRion	&(= (Long. 2) (BigInteger. "2"))
08:16	lazybot	⇒ true
08:17	fliebel	wut...
08:17	hyPiRion	yeah.
08:18	fliebel	I'm pretty sure it's handled in clojure.lang, number, though: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L28
08:19	hyPiRion	Yeah, most likely.
08:19	dbushenko	hi all!
08:19	fliebel	here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L213
08:19	dbushenko	does anyone have troubles while embedding the clojurescript repl in a web-page?
08:19	dbushenko	I'm trying the example from the clojurescript bundle, proceeding step-by-step
08:19	dbushenko	and the repl simply doesn't connect to the index.html
08:20	dbushenko	while accessing http://localhost:9000 does the job, and the repl connects
08:20	dbushenko	what could that be?
08:21	hyPiRion	fliebel: So if they're the same category (integer, ratio, float) they're checked for equality, but if they aren't, they are different types.
08:21	fliebel	yea...
08:22	hyPiRion	dbushenko: I wish I could help you, but unfortunately your guess is probably better than mine.
08:22	hyPiRion	Tutorials and manuals usually helps, though.
08:22	dbushenko	yes, that's what I'm doing: I'm trying the samples and tutorials
08:22	fliebel	&(clojure.lang.Numbers/category 3)
08:22	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: category
08:23	dbushenko	but no idea why I can't connect to a web-page..
08:23	fliebel	... why doesn;t that work.
08:25	hyPiRion	fliebel: here's the source, though https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L978
08:25	fliebel	hyPiRion: I now, but I should be able to call it, right?
08:27	hyPiRion	fliebel: well... yes
08:27	xeqi	its package level
08:28	hyPiRion	oh, durr.
08:28	fliebel	xeqi: meaning?
08:28	hyPiRion	it's not public, it's blank
08:28	fliebel	:(
08:28	hyPiRion	So you can only call it from the package it's defined in.
08:28	fliebel	oh, that package level
08:29	xeqi	or you have to wall hack it
08:31	timvisher	hyPiRion: 1.4.0 fixes it, thanks
09:17	kzar	,(partition 100 [1 2 3])
09:17	clojurebot	()
09:17	kzar	Can anyone explain that? ^^ (I want it to return '((1 2 3)) )
09:18	hyPiRion	kzar: try partition-all
09:18	hyPiRion	,(partition-all 100 [1 2 3])
09:18	clojurebot	((1 2 3))
09:18	hyPiRion	,(partition-all 2 [1 2 3])
09:18	clojurebot	((1 2) (3))
09:18	kzar	hyPiRion: Nice, thanks
09:18	hyPiRion	You're welcome
09:47	bhenry	anyone else have problems with clojurescript keyword lookup in ie8?
09:49	bhenry	http://imgur.com/vnmDJ results of (js/alert (apply str (keys user))
09:53	point9	When I run repl from lein, the var "realized?" couldn't be found. Why is that?
09:53	neotyk	bhenry: try (js/alert (apply name (keys user)))
09:54	neotyk	point9: it must be old clojure, before 1.4
09:54	point9	oh...
09:56	bhenry	neotyk, that's not my point. (:username user) fails in ie8, because of the slash
09:56	uraimo	to upgrade from prev3 to prev4 do i need to do something else other than downloading the new lein script?
09:57	uraimo	ops, wrong channel :)
09:57	neotyk	bhenry: what slash?
09:59	bhenry	neotyk, did you look at the way the keywords are alerted in the ie alert box? :/keyword as opposed to :keyword in chrome
10:00	neotyk	bhenry: keywords and symbols are strings in cljs, they just start with magic
10:01	bhenry	well then can you tell me why (:username user) doesn't work in ie8, but does work in all other browsers.
10:02	neotyk	bhenry: no idea about IE8, sorry
10:03	neotyk	bhenry: if you would use (get user key) would it work?
10:03	bhenry	i'll try. gotta go for now
10:08	bderooms_	is anything optimized in the clojure sequences?
10:08	bderooms_	such as getting the last..
10:08	bderooms_	or is that O^n
10:13	si14	guys, where I can find any example of web-gui on ClojureScript?
10:13	bobry	bderooms_: depends on the sequence I guess, it's clearly O(n) for lists
10:18	hyPiRion	bderooms_: constant time for vectors. Reverse is also constant time.
10:18	hyPiRion	(for vectors, that is)
10:20	chouser	rseq, not reverse
10:21	madsy	Is there a dynamic var I can change so swank doesn't flood me with text when I run a function that returns a huge sequence?
10:25	tmciver	madsy: looks like print-length might do what you want.
10:26	madsy	tmciver: I just found it on clojuredocs too. Thanks :)
10:29	tmciver	madsy: fyi: apropos is good for finding that kind of info. I ran (apropos 'print) in the repl.
10:38	bobry	did anyone get a stack overflow, while compiling cljs?
10:40	balint	wanted to try the new reducers library, cloned the repo, built the jar with mvn install and then got this when requiring the reducers:
10:40	balint	CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: jsr166y.ForkJoinPool, compiling:(clojure/core/reducers.clj:56)
10:41	balint	do I need a certain version of the JVM for that to work?
10:41	balint	I have 1.6.0_31
10:42	hyPiRion	I've seen some commits in which they say something about 1.7, though I'm unsure whether that leaves 1.6 incompatible.
10:43	hyPiRion	Let me see.
10:43	pipeline	balint: look at the class name: jsr166y. it needs something that is a jsr proposal and not actually bundled with java. looks like this - http://g.oswego.edu/dl/concurrency-interest/
10:43	fliebel	Hm, I read it's a weird dependency problem.
10:44	fliebel	the jsr thing is declared as an optional dep, iirc
10:46	balint	pipeline: thank you, that fixed it
10:47	balint	in fact, I used the clojure-1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT-slim.jar and so that's why the extra dependency needed to be declared explicitly
10:57	TimMc	clojure 1.5? o.o
10:57	TimMc	,clojure-version
10:57	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
10:58	TimMc	Oh, huh. Didn't realize 1.4 had been released.
11:00	S11001001	TimMc: don't worry, not too much changed
11:01	fliebel	&(:qualifier clojure-version)
11:01	lazybot	⇒ nil
11:01	fliebel	&clojure-version
11:01	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
11:04	S11001001	'course you would have known this following the presentation about 1.3/1.4 changes at the boston clojure a few months ago in Newton :)
11:11	TimMc	Yeah. sounded like mostly bugfixes.
11:12	TimMc	S11001001: Did you make it to the one at Basho? I really liked the talk on Kiln.
11:12	S11001001	yeah
11:12	S11001001	I sat next to the projector
11:13	hyPiRion	You lucky americans.
11:15	TimMc	hyPiRion: Well, I only get out to Clojure stuff in my own city. NYC would be easy to get to, Durham, NC would be annoyingly far (for the Conj), but I've only been to the west coast twice in my life.
11:16	hyPiRion	TimMc: Oh. I'd probably go to any (sufficiently large) Clojure thing within Europe if we had something large here.
11:17	hyPiRion	But that's probably because there's no supply for these things over here, at least not in Norway.
11:18	S11001001	I do hope that Basho does indeed offer the space for more meetings
11:27	TimMc	hyPiRion: There's EuroClojure, right?
11:28	TimMc	Also, I saw a really awesome job posting in Helsinki for controlling industrial robots in Clojure.
11:28	TimMc	Now that's Finland, but it's still in your neck of the woods.
11:35	metajack	that's zenrobotics i think. i walked past their building whenever i was in Helsinki
11:40	TimMc	SO. COOL.
11:41	gfredericks	why does clj-http require a :length parameter for input-stream bodies?
11:41	TimMc	What's the catch, besides being in Finland?
11:42	TimMc	OMG: "Some people see a problem and think "I know, I'll use Java!" Now they have a ProblemFactory."
11:42	muhoo	gfredericks: ram allocation?
11:42	muhoo	bytaarray allocation, specifically, i'd guess
11:42	dakrone	gfredericks: because InputStreamEntitys for Apache require the length of the stream passed in
11:43	metajack	TimMc: no idea. I was working for another Finnish company, but remotely.
11:43	metajack	Helsinki is nice, but winter is awful
11:43	gfredericks	dakrone: so there's no way to stream data without knowing the length up front?
11:43	dakrone	gfredericks: https://hc.apache.org/httpcomponents-core-ga/httpcore/apidocs/org/apache/http/entity/InputStreamEntity.html
11:43	metajack	the constant darkness was super depressing
11:43	TimMc	Yes, that would be my concern.
11:43	metajack	i visited in december and basically no one ever did anything. everyone just stayed indoors and was sad.
11:43	dakrone	gfredericks: I can look into it, but right now there's not
11:44	hyPiRion	TimMc: Oh, there is? I'll check it out.
11:44	gfredericks	dakrone: I think I can work it out, no worries
11:44	dakrone	gfredericks: if you find a way, patches welcome ;D
11:46	hyPiRion	and metajack: It's horribly dark in Fennoscandia.
11:47	gfredericks	dakrone: do you know for sure that HTTP allows it?
11:47	hyPiRion	I suppose it's colder in Finland though.
11:47	dakrone	gfredericks: I don't for sure, it may actually require length when sending data, another thing to add to the TODO
11:48	gfredericks	dakrone: I mean the HTTP protocol
11:48	dakrone	gfredericks: yea, that's what I meant also
11:48	gfredericks	er...the HTT protocol?
11:48	TimMc	HTTP allows for streaming
11:48	gfredericks	TimMc: without length, right?
11:48	TimMc	Has to.
11:49	gfredericks	okay thought so
11:49	gfredericks	TimMc: in a request, right?
11:50	muhoo	gfredericks: dakrone: transfer-coding = "chunked", perhaps? http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html
11:52	wkmanire	Gooooood morning.
12:04	gfredericks	wkmanire: morning?? but in time zone X it is actually a bad morning!
12:04	wkmanire	nah
12:04	wkmanire	Today is an awesome day.
12:04	wkmanire	I woke up and everything.
12:04	TimMc	wkmanire: I think it is already tomorrow some places.
12:05	gfredericks	man it would be weird if moods were globally synchronized
12:05	wkmanire	I can't imagine all 3 billion women on the rag at the same time.
12:05	wkmanire	:(
12:06	pipeline	wkmanire: shame on you
12:06	wkmanire	pipeline: :D
12:06	TimMc	pipeline: For poor imagination?
12:06	wkmanire	I'm shameless
12:07	pipeline	if no one speaks up, sexist bullshit on irc self-perpetuates
12:07	pipeline	so, uh, shame. picture the finger rubbing motion.
12:07	wkmanire	nothing sexist about that.
12:07	wkmanire	it's a well known fact.
12:07	lucian	plenty sexist about that
12:07	wkmanire	I just got in trouble with my lady because we ran out of rice.
12:07	gfredericks	(inc pipeline)
12:07	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:07	pipeline	wkmanire: well, this is also why we have an /ignore function. get bent
12:07	wkmanire	pipeline: Feel free :)
12:08	kzar	Wow, this is the first time I've seen anything like this in #clojure
12:08	TimMc	Women in the same apartment seem to synchronize, but extended social networks don't. I imagine birth control pills are the reason (not allowing drift.)
12:09	TimMc	pipeline: Were you reacting to "on the rag" or the notion that menstrual cycles (statistically!) affect mood?
12:09	foxdonut	please stop this topic now. thank you.
12:09	TimMc	k
12:09	wkmanire	Must be monday morning.
12:10	wkmanire	day/evening
12:10	geoffeg	let's talk about something like: beer!
12:10	TimMc	wkmanire: nooooo, that's how this got started
12:10	TimMc	gfredericks: Wait, this is about HTTP request length?
12:10	si14	why there are so many warnings when one builds Domina?
12:10	si14	WARNING: Use of undeclared Var domina/.DomContent at line 459 /home/si14/repos/domina/src/cljs/domina.cljs
12:10	wkmanire	TimMc: I'm trying to get back on topic and do something recursive.
12:10	gfredericks	TimMc: yep
12:11	gfredericks	TimMc: forwarding a request
12:11	TimMc	For some reason I was thinking about responses. ANyway, you should be able to copy the headers, yeah?
12:12	gfredericks	TimMc: content-length seems to be nil :/
12:13	muhoo	wkmanire: well, to do somthing recursive, do something recursive :-)
12:14	wkmanire	muhoo: It's not as easy as you might thing you might think.
12:17	tmciver	gfredericks: spec says (http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.13) Content-Length should be set, not that it must be set so perhaps this means clj-http is being overly restrictive?
12:17	dakrone	hmm, I wonder if I could get away with putting null for the length of the input stream
12:17	gfredericks	it's a primitive long isn't it?
12:17	wkmanire	tmciver: I've had chrome reject responses for having an incorrect content length.
12:18	wkmanire	tmciver: It was for JSON response.
12:18	wkmanire	a JSON response*
12:19	dakrone	yes
12:31	gfredericks	is there a standard way for lein-ring to reload files on changes?
12:31	weavejester	gfredericks: It does that by default
12:32	weavejester	You can turn it off by setting the :middleware option
12:33	gfredericks	weavejester: well I've wasted a million years of my life by not asking about that earlier
12:33	weavejester	Though I'm going to change that a little in the next release so there are :auto-reload and :auto-refresh options
12:33	weavejester	gfredericks: Ohhhh :)
12:34	weavejester	I did mention it in the readme, but it's only a sentence
12:34	gfredericks	weavejester: and/or reading the readme
12:35	AeroNotix	`
12:35	gfredericks	_
12:37	pjstadig	\|
12:38	goodieboy	anyone know of an emacs plugin that will allow me to see all of the callers of a given function?
12:38	gfredericks	swank-clojure has a grep-based version of that
12:38	gfredericks	it is mentioned in the swank-clojure readme
12:38	goodieboy	gfredericks: cool ok, i'll check it out. thanks!
12:40	technomancy	it's not very good
12:40	technomancy	I guess the readme should also mention that fact
12:42	S11001001	ah well, finding callers of a function is halting problem :)
12:42	gfredericks	technomancy: either that or annotate all the other features with "it's very good"
12:42	technomancy	gfredericks: that would work
12:43	gfredericks	S11001001: is it? the question isn't "will the function ever get called if I run the program"
12:43	nDuff	How can one get the JDK's tools.jar into the classpath when using leiningen?
12:44	S11001001	gfredericks: (defn do-something [f g h] (if (f) (g) (h))) (do-something some-f some-g some-h); who calls some-g or some-h?
12:45	gfredericks	S11001001: I guess for these purposes "mentioning" is as good as calling
12:45	ibdknox	you can only find usages reliably
12:45	S11001001	aye
12:46	technomancy	ibdknox: by piggybacking on the var's cache of usages it uses to make recompilation trickle down?
12:47	ibdknox	technomancy: you can do it without loading the code if you want to
12:48	technomancy	I haven't looked into it, but when I heard about how the non-dynamic-by-default changes to vars were going to be implemented, I figured the same mechanism if it were exposed would be wonderful for tooling
12:48	technomancy	I don't think the static analysis approach would be very reliable
12:48	technomancy	too easy to confuse it with macros
12:48	hiredman	vars are stored in fields on fns
12:49	ibdknox	hiredman: hm?
12:49	ibdknox	as in all the vars a fn uses?
12:49	hiredman	fns have a "constant pool" of fields
12:49	hiredman	yes
12:49	ibdknox	oh neat, I didn't know that
12:49	technomancy	ibdknox: that's the only way you can recompile a defn and have the changes work for code that's already compiled.
12:49	ibdknox	right
12:50	hiredman	the constant pool holds various things, vars, different kinds of literals
12:50	hiredman	technomancy: that is not true
12:51	hiredman	I recall rich's description of having a sort of checkpoint mechanism, but as far as I know that isn't there
12:51	hiredman	fns still deref the vars everytime
12:52	technomancy	I thought that changed in 1.3 since it wreaked havoc on hotspot's inlining
12:52	hiredman	nope
12:52	hiredman	the only change was the removal of the sort of "is bound?" check in the general case
12:53	technomancy	huh; so the deref itself could still be inlined; that's cool.
12:53	hiredman	the emitted code doesn't actually call deref
12:54	hiredman	it calls .getRoot or .getRawRoot depending if the var is dynamic or not
12:54	hiredman	huh
12:54	hiredman	no there is no .getRoot anymore
12:54	technomancy	getRoot will never respect binding though
12:54	pjstadig	yeah a non dynamic var is compiled directly to a call to .getRawRoot
12:55	pjstadig	it doesn't even bother with the thread locals
12:55	pjstadig	which allows hotspot to inline it
12:55	technomancy	but it's the moral equivalent of a deref anyway
12:55	pjstadig	well deref would check the thread locals though?
12:57	technomancy	sure, I mean it's just an optimization on deref since it knows it will never have to check thread locals
12:59	pjstadig	technomancy: i guess i don't follow you
13:00	technomancy	I guess it's just a matter of how much artistic license the term "moral equivalent" grants you =)
13:00	clojurebot	Licenser is the man who puts licenses on everything
13:13	wkmanire	Well hell. I guess pipeline went ahead and /ignored me. :/ I tried apologizing privately. So here's a public apology because I'm feeling guilty. I apologize for offending anyone with my comment from earlier. While I don't agree that it was sexist I do agree that perhaps #clojure is not the best venue for that sort of conversation. So, yeah. Foot in mouth.
13:14	ibdknox	technomancy: is there a way for me to force a lein project to use a different version of clojure? I'm setting the dependency correctly but always getting 1.3.0
13:15	banseljaj	wkmanire: Did I miss something?
13:15	technomancy	ibdknox: one of your dependencies is being a jerk and claiming to not work with newer versions; `lein deps :tree` should track it down
13:16	wkmanire	banseljaj: I made a comment in poor taste and offended at least one person.
13:16	technomancy	ibdknox: once you find it, submit a bug report with that lib; in the mean time use :exclusions to shut it up
13:16	wkmanire	banseljaj: No, you didn't miss anything.
13:16	ibdknox	technomancy: great, thanks
13:17	wkmanire	banseljaj: Did you get your Suse distro working?
13:17	banseljaj	wkmanire: Yeah. It's working at a basic level.
13:17	wkmanire	banseljaj: So you boot it up and you have a full functionaly (pardon the pun) clojure dev environment ready to rock and roll?
13:17	wkmanire	functional*
13:18	foxdonut	wow, SuSE is still going?
13:18	banseljaj	I'm trying to see what other softwares are needed and setup the basic dev envrironment
13:19	banseljaj	wkmanire: Not so fast. :P By "working", I mean it boots up, and you can do regular linux stuff on it. You can try it out. I haven't yet tried putting leiningen on it.
13:19	banseljaj	foxdonut: apparently so. :D
13:19	banseljaj	Any experienced clojure dev that wants to test or contributes shell scripts is welcome. :)
13:19	technomancy	banseljaj: do you have any experience with rpm packaging?
13:20	foxdonut	banseljaj: heh. last time I used SuSE, it came on CDs and I was on 56k modem :)
13:20	banseljaj	technomancy: I'd say beginner level experience. Plus, I learn fast. And I was actually looking into making a leiningen rpm. :)
13:21	banseljaj	foxdonut: that was true for me too until yesterday. :D
13:21	technomancy	banseljaj: would you submit it upstream or just use it for your own purposes?
13:21	foxdonut	banseljaj: what were you using before yesterday?
13:21	banseljaj	technomancy: I'd probably set up my own repo.
13:22	banseljaj	foxdonut: I was and still use debian based systems.
13:22	technomancy	banseljaj: suse doesn't use yum, does it?
13:22	banseljaj	I am just developing a clojure dev solution using OpenSUSE
13:22	banseljaj	technomancy: Packman
13:22	banseljaj	it can use yum.
13:22	technomancy	o_O
13:22	banseljaj	Is there a problem?
13:22	technomancy	I thought that was arch?
13:23	Bronsa	that's pacman
13:23	foxdonut	so did I
13:23	banseljaj	technomancy: that's pacman. Without the 'k'
13:23	banseljaj	:D
13:23	technomancy	geez
13:23	foxdonut	pff!
13:24	foxdonut	TOSFYPMN
13:24	technomancy	it would be nice to offer a repo, but rpm distros are pretty fragmented from what I understand.
13:24	foxdonut	think of something else for your package manager name!
13:24	technomancy	everyone invents their own repo format
13:24	banseljaj	I am currently looking into a full small footprint hand-crafted linux.
13:24	banseljaj	I'd probably use debs
13:24	banseljaj	debs are cool. :D
13:24	banseljaj	</11th doctor>
13:24	technomancy	yeah, this is the first time I've heard the word SuSE in years
13:25	technomancy	well anyway, some people might find a raw rpm file useful even if it's not in a repo
13:26	technomancy	banseljaj: so if you end up with something, could you add it to the packaging page of the wiki?
13:26	banseljaj	technomancy: that would have been my first move. :)
13:26	technomancy	cool
13:26	wkmanire	technomancy: Really? I see it mentioned all the time in the couple of linux magazines that circulate in Vegas.
13:26	technomancy	obviously I don't travel in the right circles
13:27	banseljaj	technomancy: are you a CEO?
13:27	wkmanire	But I know what you mean. The last time I tried SUSE, Lindows was still popular.
13:27	hiredman	do linux magazines still circulate anywhere else in the country?
13:27	technomancy	haha; no
13:27	banseljaj	If not, then yes, you don't. :)
13:27	banseljaj	SUSE is only corporate now.
13:27	technomancy	all my knowledge of distros comes from http://lein-survey.herokuapp.com/results
13:28	banseljaj	I only saw it running as a special instance on AWS
13:28	technomancy	according to that survey there are 23 users of leiningen on rpm-based systems, but I didn't ask if they were using yum or some other system
13:31	banseljaj	technomancy: That's distroist.
13:31	technomancy	it's OK; I also ignore Arch
13:31	technomancy	because apparently Arch users get grumpy if things are too easy.
13:32	tmciver	banseljaj: some of his best friends are distros.
13:32	banseljaj	lol
13:32	banseljaj	I probably would roll ut a complete new distro, but it's too much work for a single man.
13:32	banseljaj	s/ut/out/
13:35	pipeline	technomancy: for RPMs you can pretty much just offer RHEL and ignore the others
13:36	pipeline	technomancy: Fedora is desktop users. They'll work it out in their home directories. SuSE is a much smaller userbase. Everything else is inconsequentially small.
13:38	wkmanire	banseljaj: LFS?
13:38	banseljaj	wkmanire: Yeah.
13:38	wkmanire	banseljaj: I liked the idea of LFS but I want to be able to use a package manager like aptitude.
13:39	wkmanire	banseljaj: If you can use aptitude on your system then you're basically running debian. At least from my point of you.
13:39	muhoo	if i use lein2 check, all that aot stuff isn't going to hang around, interefering with other things, is it?
13:39	banseljaj	I'm pretty sure that can be arranged. that's what I have in mind.
13:39	banseljaj	for now, I think someone other than me should check the SUSE install.
13:40	technomancy	pipeline: cool; thanks for the confirmation
13:41	technomancy	pipeline: how much overlap is there between rhel and fedora though? considering there's no native bits I wouldn't be surprised if the same package could be used verbatim on both
13:41	muhoo	pipeline: debian is "inconsequentially small"? i dunno, seems pretty widespread to me.
13:41	pipeline	muhoo: talking about rpm distributions
13:41	pipeline	technomancy: for practical purposes, none. RHEL trails fedora by 2+ years, but fedora releases are only supported for a year or two at a go.
13:42	pipeline	technomancy: it DOES help to take rpm specfiles from old fedora releases and adapt them for new code on RHEL
13:42	pipeline	technomancy: the problem is actually worse for "non-native" bits. packaging standards for python, java etc evolve too quickly inside fedora
13:42	technomancy	pipeline: when your dependencies consist of a JVM and rlwrap trailing by two years seems like no big deal though
13:43	technomancy	Java's rate of evolution makes RHEL look fast =)
13:43	pipeline	you misunderstand me
13:43	pipeline	the packaging standards
13:43	pipeline	change rapidly
13:43	technomancy	oh, sure
13:43	pipeline	fedora is in many ways a test bed for new ideas in RHEL
13:43	banseljaj	technomancy: That webapp. The lein survey. that's pretty tiny compared to other frameworks I have worked wiht.
13:43	pipeline	so fedora picks up and abandons two or three packaging standards for non-C items in the time between RHEL releases ;)
13:43	technomancy	heh
13:43	technomancy	banseljaj: oh, did you check out the source?
13:44	technomancy	banseljaj: it's pretty simplistic; only 3 endpoints really
13:44	banseljaj	technomancy: Yeah. I'm looking at it right now.
13:44	banseljaj	and "HOLY SHIT IT'S TINY!"
13:45	technomancy	write a row in postgres and serve up some charts; not a lot going on =)
13:46	muhoo	banseljaj: webdev in clojure is wonderfully compact
13:46	banseljaj	technomancy: I work with rails. trust me, it takes a lot of work to get it working there. :(
13:47	muhoo	per rhickey: "gem install hairball"
13:47	banseljaj	technomancy: Would you mind explaining a tiny thing on your code.?
13:48	technomancy	sure; what's up?
13:49	banseljaj	technomancy: line 8 in render.clj, you do [[question _ answers]]. I wanted to know what it is that you're skipping by using the \UNDERSCORE
13:49	technomancy	banseljaj: in that case it's the type of the question
13:49	pipeline	technomancy: another thing to keep in mind is that you're free to disregard their standards and just depend on the easy stuff: integrate with the 'alternatives' system, depend on a system jdk. I do this all the time for ruby things, packaging stuff the official fedora way is just too much work.
13:49	clojure-newcomer	Hi guys, working through the clojure-programming book… trying to iterate over the result of the following function : http://pastebin.com/sTv0RFz8, can anyone help ?
13:50	technomancy	banseljaj: which is used to dispatch to the correct multimethod, but once you're in the method body you don't care
13:50	banseljaj	technomancy: Oh. Nice.
13:50	clojure-newcomer	basically just want to print some or all details of every element in collection/sequence
13:50	technomancy	pipeline: it's up to whomever cares enough to package it =)
13:50	technomancy	pipeline: I was lucky to have a lot of help with Debian, but it's great to have it included in the official repos
13:51	muhoo	clojure-newcomer: doseq?
13:51	banseljaj	technomancy: well, the debs still don't have 2.0 :(
13:51	technomancy	banseljaj: yeah, unfortunately the number of dependencies shot way up in 2.0
13:51	technomancy	but 2.0 isn't even finished anyway
13:51	clojure-newcomer	muhoo: I tried a doseq, but failed
13:52	banseljaj	technomancy: it works fine for me.
13:52	technomancy	we have a long way to go before 2.0 is done
13:52	banseljaj	technomancy: Actually, it's a wonderful tool. Thank you for that. :)
13:52	clojure-newcomer	I tried something like (doseq [author get-authors] (println author))
13:52	technomancy	sure =)
13:52	banseljaj	I like the cclojure community. :D
13:56	banseljaj	The results.clj makes about 30% sense to me. But then again, mY love affair with clojure is barely 72 hours
13:57	technomancy	there's a lot of crazy data-wrangling stuff in there; getting numbers in the right format for incanter
14:02	banseljaj	technomancy: How much java knowledge is required to properly use clojure?
14:02	technomancy	banseljaj: depends what you want to do
14:03	clojure-newcomer	can anyone help me with the doseq or equipvalent necessary for me to inspect : http://pastebin.com/sTv0RFz8 ?
14:03	banseljaj	technomancy: My Primary hobby is making web-apps. Secondarily, CLI apps, thirdly, GUI apps.
14:03	technomancy	you basically never need to know how to write Java. sometimes you need to know how to read Java; more often learning to read javadocs is enough.
14:03	banseljaj	technomancy: note: "hobby". Means I don't deal with deadlines and can work as long as I want to. :)
14:03	muhoo	and java stacktraces :-)
14:04	technomancy	banseljaj: you'll be ignoring Java until you need to pull in a Java library.
14:04	banseljaj	technomancy: I can read stacktraces. and javadocs.
14:04	banseljaj	technomancy: How often does that happen. I mean how mature is clojure's own library/plugin/whatchamacallit system
14:05	technomancy	banseljaj: not sure how to answer that. it's more mature than you would expect for a 4-year-old language, mostly since writing libraries to wrap existing java implementations is way easier than writing from scratch.
14:06	banseljaj	clojure's just 4 years old? :D
14:06	banseljaj	s/:D/D:
14:07	technomancy	maybe 5?
14:07	banseljaj	Java as a pretty strong library base.
14:08	technomancy	4½
14:09	banseljaj	it'll be the youngest language I'm learning then.
14:11	AeroNotix	can anyone make a comparison between clojure 6 months ago and clojure today?
14:11	AeroNotix	I tried it and I just found it to have a very 'standard' set of built-in functions, with pretty much everything else hitting out to java libs
14:11	AeroNotix	which kind of made it annoying to use
14:12	AeroNotix	I would love to get back to it, because it really changed the way I wrote other code. And I would like to learn more ideas from Clojure and Lisps in general
14:13	technomancy	it's more likely you just weren't able to find the libraries for what you wanted. for the most part they are out there, but I wouldn't say they've become much easier to find in the last 6 months.
14:14	AeroNotix	technomancy: What I found extremely annoying was the very weird way of interacting with files
14:14	AeroNotix	technomancy: I can't remember off the top of my head but it seemed strange there were regex `primitives` but not filereading `primitives`
14:15	AeroNotix	built-in funcs, sorry
14:15	technomancy	you mean the fact that the file functions aren't in clojure.core?
14:15	technomancy	they're definitely built-in
14:15	AeroNotix	technomancy: been a while but was it 'slurp'?
14:16	technomancy	slurp is the only one in clojure.core namespace; the rest are in clojure.java.io
14:16	technomancy	but using clojure.java.io is not "using Java", it's just using io functions that are implemented on the JVM
14:17	AeroNotix	iirc slurp puts the whole file into memory, which I found a little odd for a functional language, I thought it would lazily read the file.
14:17	AeroNotix	Anyway, it's no bother. File-reading is a small part
14:18	technomancy	yeah, slurp isn't meant for nontrivial purposes
14:18	AeroNotix	technomancy: and that's what got me
14:18	technomancy	well that hasn't changed in 6 months =)
14:18	AeroNotix	ok then
14:18	technomancy	but you might have a better time learning now that the oreilly book is out
14:18	AeroNotix	also, I picked up the completely wrong book to learn about clojure
14:18	AeroNotix	technomancy: been looking at that
14:19	AeroNotix	I picked up Practical Clojure, what a money grab
14:19	gtrak	is there a 'let' that'll dump its bindings and values into a map?
14:19	foxdonut	AeroNotix: not a fan either.
14:20	AeroNotix	foxdonut: It just seemed like an api doc to me
14:20	AeroNotix	foxdonut: very little theory
14:20	foxdonut	AeroNotix: I blame Apress.
14:20	AeroNotix	foxdonut: well, I've had good books by Apress, "The Definitive Guide To Django" is amazing
14:21	AeroNotix	foxdonut: I really should have waited for the O'Reilly book, never gone wrong with them
14:21	gfredericks	is there a built in java class-or-whatever for cloning an inputstream?
14:21	foxdonut	AeroNotix: to be clear: not all Apress books are bad. many books that are bad/rushed to market are from Apress.
14:21	AeroNotix	foxdonut: I'll keep that in mind :)
14:22	technomancy	Apress's CL book is great
14:22	AeroNotix	technomancy: the common lisp one?
14:22	gtrak	I want like the opposite of destructuring, being to reference other bindings as i'm building the map like a normal let
14:23	gtrak	being able*
14:23	foxdonut	technomancy: my theory is that if the author is good, Apress won't get in the way :)
14:23	technomancy	AeroNotix: yeah
14:23	banseljaj	technomancy: How hard would it be to keep a local repo of all the clojure libraries? How much space?
14:24	technomancy	banseljaj: probably not impossible. check out http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com
14:24	AeroNotix	I just found out today that my work has mirrors for like the top 20 linux distros, PyPI and CPAN and a host of other FOSS
14:24	xeqi	gfredericks: cloning an inputstream?
14:24	AeroNotix	I ftp from it at like 10mb/s
14:25	gfredericks	xeqi: so it can be read twice; preferably without needing to keep more in memory than the difference between the two read points
14:25	technomancy	banseljaj: no way you'd want to put that on an iso for everyone though
14:25	gtrak	hmm.. like, (let {a 1 b (inc a)})
14:25	gtrak	would return {:a 1 :b 2}
14:26	banseljaj	technomancy: No. But you can put a script which anyone can use to get them.
14:26	hyPiRion	A let which returns a map?
14:26	gfredericks	gtrak: wouldn't be too hard to make a macro that does that
14:26	gtrak	yea, I'm thinking about it
14:26	gtrak	surprised it's not a already a thing, though?
14:27	Chousuke	what would you use that for? :/
14:27	technomancy	gtrak: you have to use a macro
14:27	technomancy	see the implicit &env arg
14:27	gtrak	just to avoid (let [a 1 b (inc a)] {:a a :b b}), it's a common thing to write
14:29	gtrak	&env arg, interesting
14:29	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context
14:29	gfredericks	(defmacro let-map [& pairs] (let [names (map first (partition 2 pairs))] `(let [~@pairs] (zipmap [~@(map (comp keyword name) names)] [~@names]))))
14:29	gtrak	ha, awesome :-)
14:32	fliebel	gfredericks: How would you use it?
14:32	gfredericks	(let-map a 1 b (inc a))
14:33	intuneontime	hello, quick question: how come if i execute "(doall (for [i (range 1 3)] (do (println i) i)))" in the repl i get the result i expect (1 and 2 printed, then the sequence itself), but if i do "(def x (for [i (range 1 3)] (do (println i) i)))" and then "(doall x)" it doesn't print the 1 and 2, but just the sequence? if that makes sense.
14:35	tmciver	intuneontime: I get the same result for both . . .
14:36	gfredericks	intuneontime: it would only print the 1 and 2 the first time -- are you doing it repeated times?
14:37	intuneontime	oh i see, it only happens the first time it's evaluated
14:37	intuneontime	thank you
14:37	gtrak	gfredericks: that's brilliant, though I think I like it more without the &, since it looks more like a let
14:38	fliebel	Does anyone know what Greenspun's tenth rule is?
14:38	gfredericks	gtrak: yeah, whatever you like
14:38	S11001001	If it does not do exactly what you expect with exactly zero hours' consideration or experience, it is a bug in Lisp that should be fixed.
14:39	technomancy	brucio's law =)
14:39	S11001001	even more important than whatever that Greenspan guy said
14:39	fliebel	Any sufficiently complicated Clojure program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.
14:40	hiredman	who wants all of common lisp?
14:41	fliebel	still on page 3...
14:41	gtrak	let-map along with destructuring is a multiple-return-value accelerator
14:50	gfredericks	gtrak: wrapping the pairs in a vector like you like would let you do more general things, like bind the resulting map to a local name and have a body for let-map that can use the map
14:50	gfredericks	not sure if that'd be useful though
14:50	gtrak	it also looks like destructuring would still work :-)
14:50	gtrak	within the let-map
14:50	gfredericks	ehhhh
14:51	gfredericks	doubt it
14:51	gfredericks	the keys it has to turn into keywords
14:51	gtrak	ah, damn
14:51	gtrak	you're right
14:51	gfredericks	it's conceivable though
14:52	gtrak	maybe the &env is a clue
14:53	gtrak	use a normal let to do the destructuring, then at the end, assemble the elements with &env
14:56	gfredericks	yeah; if you care about shadowing you'll have to check the vals of the &env with identical?
14:59	gtrak	it might require a second macro, if I use macrolet that would mess it up :-)
15:07	eggsby	so I understand I can use atoms and references to eliminate race conditions... but how can I do concurrent operations in a clojure programs? Just spin up new threads?
15:07	nDuff	eggsby: that's one way; there's also agents
15:07	nDuff	eggsby: ...what's the actual use case?
15:08	nDuff	...and futures...
15:09	eggsby	Oh I'm doing some 'learn clojure' course and the task is to have concurrent operations on some world map
15:10	nDuff	eggsby: heh -- there's a somewhat famous little demo you might find relevant... I think Conway's Game of Life, with each pixel handled by a different thread
15:10	eggsby	threaded game of life, eh
15:11	rhc	eggsby: i wrote something similar to that here: http://matthavener.com/matthavener/banksim
15:11	rhc	its sorta like the "ants" program hickey wrote
15:11	eggsby	basically what I'm thinking is either 'tick' the world map and process each possible 'move' for all the actors or spin up a bunch of threads and have them use a shared atomic resource
15:11	eggsby	thank you rhc I will look at it
15:11	eggsby	I like the fact that this course wants me to do interesting things, I don't like that there was absolutely no teaching involved :\|
15:12	rhc	eggsby: banksim doesn't 'tick' but all the actors (trucks moving money) do sleep for a fixed amount of time
15:12	rhc	but you could easily make that per-truck, or random-per-move
15:13	rhc	eggsby: i wrote that recently, but i'm still new to clojure, so don't look to it for necessarily "idiomatic" clojure code, but imo its pretty ok
15:13	nDuff	...ahh -- Ants is _exactly_ what I was thinking about
15:14	eggsby	is this ants video worth watching nDuff
15:14	rhc	the ants presentation is still on blip.tv
15:14	rhc	the whole presentation is an excellent intro to clojure
15:14	eggsby	it says 'be sure to grab the code and slides!' yet doesnt link to the code nor the slides :(
15:15	duck1123	The ants video is really old, so take some of it with a grain of salt
15:15	rhc	eggsby: err, that link si wrong: http://github.com/matthavener/banksim
15:15	babilen	rhc: Shouldn't that have been https://github.com/matthavener/banksim btw?
15:15	eggsby	I also have some old video from phil hagelberg w/ peepcode
15:15	babilen	ah
15:15	eggsby	but I think it's clojure 1.1
15:15	rhc	babilen: yeah, thanks
15:16	eggsby	okay, so I need to learn about agents then, i'll look at this code, thanks rhc
15:17	rhc	eggsby: no prob, let me know if you have any questions, i'll probably learn something too by trying to answer them :)
15:19	eggsby	and so avout offers this style of concurrency in a distributed way?
15:22	amalloy	gtrak: fwiw, useful.map has a macro "keyed", such that (let [a 1 b (inc a)] (keyed [a b])) would return {:a 1 :b 2}
15:23	gtrak	ah, interesting
15:23	amalloy	also accepts :strs and :syms options to mirror destructuring
15:23	gtrak	the non-destructuring macro is good enough for what I'm trying to do, though I think it'd be fun to figure this out :-)
15:25	solussd	noir question, if I have a pre route of "/", can I get the actual value of "" in my pre-route?
15:32	duck1123	solussd: I don't know noir, but do you have a key named :* in :params ?
15:36	eggsby	technomancy: do you think the peepcode clojure course is still relevant for people new to clj?
15:40	solussd	duck1123: doenst seem to work.. :/
15:45	duck1123	solussd: That's where clout puts it. I don't know what you have to do for noir
15:49	gtrak	gfredericks: https://gist.github.com/2764230 how do I keep c from showing up?
15:53	gtrak	hmm, I can remove the keys that are there before unless they show up again
15:55	amalloy	i don't think you can ever get to-map to work with no arguments
15:57	Borkdude	What is the idea behind a non-dynamic var being mutable?
15:59	technomancy	eggsby: most of the features that have been added since the peepcode release are not relevant to beginners.
15:59	technomancy	eggsby: the biggest thing is that the peepcode doesn't use Leiningen, but IMO that's easy to learn elsewhere
16:00	technomancy	just stick your fingers in your ear for the minute or two that build.sh is mentioned =)
16:00	technomancy	eggsby: see also http://technomancy.us/136
16:00	eggsby	technomancy: I've been using clojure for maybe 2 months, since I already understand the basics of the language, do you think it's a worthwhile purchase?
16:01	technomancy	I don't know; depends on your learning style and the kinds of things you've done so far.
16:02	technomancy	you could read over the sample project source code; if it's all obvious to you then probably not
16:02	technomancy	clojurebot: google mire clojure github
16:02	eggsby	good idea... and is it you actually doing the coding or did you just write it?
16:02	clojurebot	First, out of 296 results is:
16:02	clojurebot	technomancy/mire · GitHub
16:02	clojurebot	https://github.com/technomancy/mire
16:02	technomancy	I wrote the script and the code, but I didn't do the voiceover, thank goodness =)
16:03	eggsby	ah cool, well I think I'll purchase it just for that then
16:03	technomancy	great =)
16:04	amalloy	just to hear anyone's voice but technomancy's?
16:04	Borkdude	can someone answer my question, before I put myself to shame elsewhere?
16:04	Borkdude	;)
16:04	amalloy	Borkdude: it's not really an answerable question yet, i think
16:04	amalloy	not very clear about what you're asking
16:04	technomancy	amalloy: topfunky's voice is silky-smooth; good for soothing infants as well.
16:05	technomancy	he really should advertise that angle more
16:05	raek	Borkdude: the fact that you can mutate the root binding?
16:05	Borkdude	raek: yes
16:05	technomancy	Borkdude: it's only possible because interactive development would suck otherwise
16:05	technomancy	in ML-derived languages, changes to top-level definitions are not retroactive
16:06	technomancy	which is also true in Clojure when working with non-var functions.
16:06	Borkdude	technomancy: yes, I noticed that in F#, do you mean this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2570628/difference-in-f-and-clojure-when-calling-redefined-functions
16:07	Borkdude	technomancy: non-var functions?
16:07	technomancy	more or less
16:08	Borkdude	technomancy: give me an example of a non-var function
16:08	technomancy	Borkdude: (defn f [] inc) (let [local-f (f)] (defn g [x] (local-f x)) (defn f [] dec) (g 10) ; -> 11
16:09	technomancy	you see this most commonly with (run-jetty app {:port 8080})
16:09	technomancy	if you want to be able to recompile app, you do this instead: (run-jetty #'app {:port 8080})
16:09	muhoo	:join? false
16:09	Borkdude	technomancy: ah, that's why you give it the var.. ok
16:10	Borkdude	Clojure fosters immutability, but invites you to redefines its + function into - ;)
16:11	technomancy	well...
16:11	technomancy	+ is defined with definline IIRC, so that doesn't work
16:11	Borkdude	technomancy: I just tried it in a repl
16:11	gtrak	Borkdude: try defining your function before redefining +
16:11	Borkdude	technomancy: (in-ns 'clojure.core), (def + -)
16:12	Borkdude	technomancy: (+ 1 2 3) => -4
16:12	Borkdude	gtrak: will try
16:12	technomancy	yeah, you can redefine it, but not retroactively
16:12	technomancy	just like ML
16:13	Borkdude	ah, got it
16:14	Borkdude	I guess you can break anything if you want to
16:15	technomancy	yes, but it's not like Ruby which makes huge performance sacrifices to make redefining 2+2 work reliably =)
16:15	Borkdude	even with-redefs doesn't support retroactive defining on + or -
16:16	Borkdude	I guess this goes for all "inlined" fns?
16:16	technomancy	yes, though you can still change the behaviour of + when used as a HOF
16:16	technomancy	since you can't inline HOFs
16:16	Borkdude	technomancy: + as a HOF, or in a HOF?
16:17	technomancy	+ as a HOF
16:17	Borkdude	technomancy: example?
16:17	technomancy	,(with-redefs [+ -] (map (partial + 2) [1 2 3]))
16:17	clojurebot	(1 0 -1)
16:17	Borkdude	ah
16:17	dnolen	Borkdude: I believe applies to primitive fns as well as protocol fns on Clojure JVM as well.
16:18	Borkdude	(partial + 2) isn't + as a HOF though, it is the HOF partial given + returning a new function which isn't + ;)
16:18	technomancy	IMO they're both HOFs
16:18	technomancy	since they're arguments
16:19	Borkdude	my definition of a higher order function is a function that take functions as arguments and possibly return new function, but don't necessarily need to (like map)
16:19	Borkdude	+ doesn't take a function as an argument
16:20	iwo	hey, is there a shorter way to do this:
16:20	iwo	(filter #(string/substring? "gnu" (key %1)) (System/getProperties))
16:20	Borkdude	but my definition might be incorrect, correct me
16:20	amalloy	that's the technically correct definition, but "+ as HOF" colloquially would mean "+ used as a value, not called immediately"
16:20	iwo	i.e. filter map for only some keys that match pred
16:21	Borkdude	I have to think about that for a while, brb ;)
16:21	technomancy	iwo: that's pretty short already once you take out the pred and the map =)
16:24	iwo	technomancy: i guess so: (filter gnu-entry? props)
16:24	technomancy	iwo: you might need to (into {} (filter [...]))
16:25	iwo	technomancy: sorry, i don't understand. why?
16:26	technomancy	iwo: depending on whether you want a map back or a lazy seq of k/v pairs
16:26	iwo	oh i see
16:26	iwo	technomancy: yes, much more useful
16:29	wink	hehe, last 2 lines. nice coincidence? :P
16:33	bobry	is it possible to test clojurescript applications with 'clojure.test'?
16:35	dnolen	bobry: no - tho that would be a welcome addition if you want to take the time to put something like that together.
16:35	bobry	that's unfortunate :(
16:43	rlb	What would be the idomatic way to find the index of the first item in a collection that satisfies a predicate (other than equals)? I'm assuming there's something better than a manual recursion.
16:43	dnolen	bobry: easily remedied via community contribution, early days yet. CLJS hits 1 year from the first commit in 8 days.
16:44	gfredericks	,(doc keep-indexed)
16:44	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
16:44	adeelkh	what's the situation with exception handling in clojurescript? do we have try and catch?
16:45	dnolen	adeelkh: yes
16:46	rlb	gfredericks: oh, right, that'll do -- thanks.
16:51	kmicu	WARNING: The form (. "S" toLowerCase) is no longer a property access. Maybe you meant (. "S" -toLowerCase) instead? What is a proper way? I can't find it in host interop docs :)
16:51	TimMc	(.toLowerCase "S") probably
16:52	kmicu	from this I have warning
16:52	adeelkh	dnolen: I get `WARNING: Use of undeclared Var stopwatch.logger/catch`
16:52	dnolen	adeelkh: paste
16:52	amalloy	you probably have a bad macro
16:53	amalloy	eg, one that expands to a catch without a try, and then you wrap that in a try elsewhere?
16:53	bobry	is there something special about having atoms in :pre constraints? the second one in 'machine' doesn' work https://gist.github.com/3e97073b9fc6cec40fc1
16:54	adeelkh	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/2764601
16:54	adeelkh	amalloy: i haven't written any macros
16:55	amalloy	too many )s
16:55	adeelkh	argh
16:55	amalloy	or misbalanced, anyway - the catch is indented as if it were in the try, but it isn't
16:56	dnolen	adeelkh: nice you're playing around with CLJS + node
16:56	adeelkh	dnolen: yeah, it's pretty cool. i just haven't figured out how to get a repl running though
16:57	dnolen	adeelkh: still waiting for someone contribute one of those too :)
16:57	adeelkh	dnolen: i might try to do it myself then, because i really miss the repl
17:01	Borkdude	technomancy: btw, I told my class to deploy their clojure apps to heroku ;)
17:02	technomancy	Borkdude: high five: o/
17:02	adeelkh	amalloy: well, i fixed the parentheses but it doesn't actually seem to be catching the error
17:03	adeelkh	https://gist.github.com/8a508324634e779de53f
17:03	adeelkh	(the warning about catch being undeclared is gone though now)
17:04	amalloy	that's the usual issue with laziness
17:04	amalloy	(map f coll) instantly returns a lazy sequence; when you later realize its elements you are no longer inside a try/catch
17:04	dnolen	adeelkh: you need to specify the Error constructor you want to match
17:05	dnolen	adeelkh: (catch js/Error e ...)
17:05	adeelkh	dnolen: aha, that worked. thanks
17:06	amalloy	really? dnolen, why does that work? like, for sure js/Error is a necessary fix, but shouldn't it break for the reason i said?
17:06	adeelkh	amalloy: in this case the error was in the evaluation of coll itself (not in the lazy sequence returned by map)
17:06	amalloy	ah, okay
17:07	Raynes	amalloy: pwned
17:08	Borkdude	is smth like this already in clojure.core? https://gist.github.com/2764700
17:08	goodieboy	we're using https://github.com/amitrathore/medusa and it's giving us problems now that we're bumping up clojure to 1.3 -- anyone know of an alternative?
17:12	Raynes	Borkdude: Not really. You can use (read-string ..) but keep in mind that it will read more than just numbers and make sure to disable read-eval if you use it.
17:12	Raynes	If data can come from an outside source, that is.
17:13	S11001001	goodieboy: from general experience, it would probably be much easier for you to fix medusa than change your codebase to use an alternative API
17:13	Borkdude	Raynes: ah, what kinds of objects can it read?
17:13	Raynes	Anything the Clojure reader can read.
17:14	Raynes	&(doc read-string)
17:14	lazybot	⇒ "([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
17:14	Raynes	&(doc read)
17:14	lazybot	⇒ "([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?]); Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in ."
17:14	gfredericks	,(read-string "(read-string \"(read-string)\")")
17:14	clojurebot	(read-string "(read-string)")
17:14	Borkdude	Raynes: great, good to know, but here I read in something which comes from an html form, so I'll use my own fn for now
17:14	goodieboy	S11001001: true, but our code is really only using the fixed thread pool, not using any of the stats stuff -- but i can look into it, i agree with you
17:15	gfredericks	,(read-string "<html><body><div id=\"tommy\"></div></body></html>")
17:15	clojurebot	<html><body><div
17:16	Raynes	Borkdude: You could do (binding [read-eval false] (read-string foo)), but then you'd also need to check if the result was really a number.
17:16	Raynes	In the end, you'd probably end up with more code than that function you've got now.
17:17	Borkdude	Raynes: yeh, now I can just write: (if-let [num (parse-int answer)] … …)
17:20	Borkdude	I like expression oriented programming
17:21	Raynes	I like Borkdude oriented programming.
17:21	Borkdude	:)
17:22	technomancy	statements are great as a heuristic to determine whether a language designer has been exposed to other languages or is just making it up as he goes
17:23	ForSpareParts	Does anyone know a good programmatic way to analyze a function and retrieve information about the functions it calls?
17:24	ForSpareParts	I was hoping that it'd be easy/easier to do in Clojure because of the whole lisp "code-is-data" thing, but I may have been foolishly optimistic.
17:24	gfredericks	by "a function" you mean "the source for that function"?
17:24	iwo	hey, does anyone know where i can get a "light table" theme for emacs?
17:24	Borkdude	ForSpareParts: you can do static analysis using https://github.com/frenchy64/analyze
17:25	ForSpareParts	gfredericks, Yeah. If it were possible to do that with only access to compiled code, that'd be pretty wild. But I do have source.
17:27	ForSpareParts	Borkdude, I have looked at that project briefly before, and it seems promising. I'm a little worried it'll be over my head as a new clojure user, though. Are there any guides/tutorials/articles on it anywhere?
17:27	TimMc	gfredericks: What's in lib-5141? For some reason, I couldn't tell by the name. :-P
17:28	Borkdude	ForSpareParts: you can start following @ambrosebs on twitter and bug him ;)
17:28	ForSpareParts	Borkdude, Fair enough. : )
17:29	ForSpareParts	And actually, as a more general question: was I right to think that this would be a task particularly well suited to Clojure? I'm thinking about using this for a work project, but it'd be bad form for me to reinvent the wheel
17:29	ForSpareParts	(and basically everything we do is in Java)
17:29	gtrak	ForSpareParts: are you analyzing java?
17:30	technomancy	ForSpareParts: this project is one guy's grad thesis; you would probably need a pretty big team to pull this off for Java
17:30	gtrak	or just steal it from eclipse?
17:30	technomancy	well, it's not even his thesis, it's just some library he needed to exist before he could start work on his thesis
17:30	technomancy	for a bit of perspective =)
17:30	ForSpareParts	Well, I could be. The functions I want to analyze haven't been written yet, and that's why I'm thinking about this -- if doing some of my work in clojure would make analyzing the code easier, I'd be inclined to try making my project in Clojure.
17:31	Borkdude	a class of mine is doing this kind of thing: https://github.com/husacct/husacct
17:31	ForSpareParts	thanks, technomancy.
17:31	Borkdude	they use anltr for it
17:31	Borkdude	antlr
17:32	ForSpareParts	Basically, these are speculative questions at this point -- I'll be writing a bunch of testing stuff, and I was thinking that having that kind of metadata on my tests would be useful for optimizing regression testing and that sort of thing.
17:32	ForSpareParts	And, to be perfectly honest, I think Clojure is neat and I've been looking for a good excuse to build something with it : D
17:33	Borkdude	ForSpareParts: you can look around for some clojure+antlr examples on the web
17:33	Borkdude	ForSpareParts: if you want to do Java analysis
17:33	solussd	how do you call window.location.reload() from clojurescript? afaict, I can do (js/some_func arg), right?
17:34	Borkdude	bye folks
17:34	amalloy	(.reload (.-location js/window))?
17:35	solussd	what is the .-thing syntax mean exactly?
17:35	solussd	property access?
17:35	amalloy	yes
17:35	solussd	ah
17:35	solussd	thanks
17:39	adeelkh	how do i turn a clojure map into a javascript object, in clojurescript?
17:40	dnolen	adeelkh: you have to write your own converter.
17:41	pandeiro	would it make sense to have a canonical js interop ns like clojure.tools.javascript or something?
17:41	adeelkh	dnolen: hm, how should I do that? i have a map of config options i have to pass to a node library
17:41	adeelkh	dnolen: so it's just {"style" {"compact" true}} in this case
17:41	eggsby	why might I get an error like: Could not locate clojure/contrib/server_socket__init.class or clojure/contrib/server_socket.clj on classpath from the lein repl?
17:41	pandeiro	adeelkh: https://gist.github.com/1658431
17:42	dnolen	adeelkh: (js-obj "style" (js-obj "compact" true))
17:42	adeelkh	ah, thanks
17:42	technomancy	eggsby: it's using deprecated contrib
17:42	dnolen	adeelkh: js-obj + array handles the common interop cases.
17:44	technomancy	eggsby: gimme a minute
17:44	eggsby	technomancy: I just have 1.2 listed in the project.clj, shouldn't that have socket-streams ?
17:45	eggsby	err, server socket*
17:45	technomancy	eggsby: yeah, but you shouldn't put old contrib in project.clj; it's gross.
17:48	eggsby	technomancy: https://github.com/technomancy/mire/blob/01-echo-server/src/mire.clj#L12 is this referring to clojure.contrib.io/read-lines ?
17:50	technomancy	eggsby: yeah
17:50	technomancy	I guess if you're going step by step you're going to run into the old contrib stuff
17:50	eggsby	is it a typo that it says read-line or am I missing something
17:50	eggsby	I might just use https://github.com/weavejester/tcp-server instead of socket-server
17:50	technomancy	oh, my bad
17:50	technomancy	it's clojure.core/read-line
17:51	eggsby	aah, ok
17:52	eggsby	could I get away with using weavejester's tcp server technomancy ?
17:53	technomancy	eggsby: no need; just pull the latest
17:53	technomancy	just pushed an update
17:54	espeed	What's the general consensus on specifying a protocol implementation as a map so that its methods can be overridden?
17:54	eggsby	ah thanks technomancy
17:56	antares_	espeed: if you really need overriden implementations, it will work fine.
17:57	espeed	so it's not recommended as a standard practice?
17:59	antares_	espeed: reusing/overriding implementations The OO Way is often just not necessary.
18:02	espeed	thanks
18:08	ibdknox	dnolen: why is it when I have the cljs compiler repo as a dep does it always print everything out the first time I compile?
18:09	dnolen	ibdknox: first I've heard of that.
18:09	ibdknox	weird
18:09	ibdknox	it only happens if I use the git repo
18:09	dnolen	ibdknox: you building with lein-cljsbuild?
18:10	ibdknox	dnolen: calling build directly
18:10	ibdknox	I'm doing the equivalent of what lein-cljsbuild does
18:11	dnolen	ibdknox: but you don't encounter that with lein-cljsbuild right?
18:11	ibdknox	let me try
18:12	ibdknox	dnolen: correct
18:16	dnolen	ibdknox: then I'm not sure what's up.
18:17	dnolen	ibdknox: might want to compare what you do differently.
18:17	ibdknox	I'll assume it's my fault somewhere then :)
18:49	dherman	dnolen: so without concurrency, what would you say are the killer one or two motivators for clojurescript? macros? expressive data abstraction?
18:50	Raynes	Not having to use javascript seems to excite people quite a bit.
18:52	dherman	Raynes: I'm preparing a slide about different languages that compile to JS, so they all have that feature. the question is differentiating clojurescript from others
18:52	TimMc	dherman: Fewer pitfalls to keep in mind, I suppose. I like to be able to iterate over a collection without having to be cautious.
18:53	Raynes	The data structures are a nice win. Clojure has excellent data structures.
18:53	dnolen	dherman: persistent data structures
18:53	dherman	the point isn't to contrast it with JS, since all languages that compile to JS eliminate the pitfalls
18:53	TimMc	Hmm, I see.
18:53	dnolen	dherman: comprehensive abstractions - like iteration for all types including natives
18:53	dherman	k
18:54	dnolen	dherman: sensible solution to expression problem
18:54	dherman	if I wrote "comprehensive data abstraction" would that be accurate?
18:54	dnolen	dherman: including natives
18:54	dnolen	dherman: yes, but it's important that types that you don't control can be easily subsumed
18:54	dherman	oh that's good, more intuitive -- uniform data abstraction (including host objects!)
18:54	dnolen	dherman: yes
18:55	dherman	nice, thx
18:55	dnolen	dherman: lots of minor stuff, like let scoping, no fear of aliasing, no mutable locals, no need for cloning
18:55	dherman	thx
18:55	dherman	yeah, this is just a one-line of high points
18:55	dherman	so that's enough
18:56	dnolen	dherman: cool
19:03	dnolen	dherman: which other compile-to-JS projects are you covering? CoffeeScript & Roy?
19:04	dherman	on that slide, I'm just mentioning a few for example. CoffeeScript, ClojureScript, Roy, FBJS, TameJS
19:04	technomancy	parenscript?
19:04	TimMc	haha
19:04	TimMc	GWT?
19:04	dherman	technomancy, TimMc: there are maaaaaany languages that compile to JS. not looking for completeness.
19:04	dherman	but later in the talk I'm talking about different topics that haven't been talked about quite as much yet
19:05	TimMc	I've actually not heard of Roy, FBJS, and TameJS.
19:05	dnolen	dherman: what's the gist of the talk?
19:05	dherman	dnolen: "The JavaScript Virtual Machine"
19:05	dnolen	dherman: ooh nice :)
19:05	dherman	why I think JS is a compelling VM, and where I'd like to see it go
19:06	technomancy	"JS is a compelling VM" or "JS has some compelling VMs"?
19:06	dherman	TimMc: Roy: an MLish language (static types, pattern matching); FBJS = Facebook JS (security language); TameJS: CPS-based language with coroutines for sync-style event handling
19:06	dherman	technomancy: JS as the VM for targeting other languages to
19:06	technomancy	it's not a VM though
19:07	technomancy	or you mean it as a metaphor?
19:07	dherman	depends on how optimistic you are about precisely defining "VM"
19:07	Raynes	metophypothetically
19:07	dherman	I'm happy treating it either way
19:07	McMartin	Let's go with "target platform"
19:08	Raynes	I'm not sure how you could define 'VM' that would let it include js.
19:08	Raynes	It makes perfect sense metaphorically though.
19:08	technomancy	doesn't the term "JavaScript™" technically only apply to Mozilla's implementation?
19:08	technomancy	or is that not true anymore
19:08	dherman	technomancy: not really
19:09	dherman	or, it's unclear at best
19:09	dherman	Sun owned the copyright to the name "Java"
19:09	dherman	now Oracle presumably does
19:09	technomancy	I mean, it used to be that ECMAScript was the name of the language, and JavaScript and JScript were the two implementations that existed.
19:09	dherman	but nobody really knows the status of it
19:09	dherman	technomancy: it was only called ECMAScript b/c JavaScript was copyrighted by Sun
19:09	technomancy	dherman: you can't copyright names
19:09	dherman	but they were meant to be the same thing
19:09	technomancy	are you talking about trademarks?
19:10	dherman	sorry, yes, trademark
19:10	dherman	wrong term
19:10	technomancy	I don't think the Java trademark applies to JavaScript
19:10	McMartin	Does JS have a standard bytecoded format?
19:10	dherman	they trademarked both
19:10	dherman	McMartin: no
19:11	dherman	McMartin: you should listen to my talk this week ;-)
19:11	McMartin	Maybe I should! Where is it?
19:11	dherman	Oslo
19:11	McMartin	Sadly, I'm going to be in San Diego this week.
19:11	dherman	but it'll be recorded
19:11	McMartin	Will there be slides/a paper associated with it?
19:11	dherman	no paper, but definitely slides
19:11	dherman	in Full HTML5 Technicolor
19:11	dnolen	dherman: looking forward to it
19:11	dherman	thx
19:12	dnolen	dherman: targetting JS has been pretty awesome, I fully support the "JavaScript Virtual Machine"
19:12	dherman	:)
19:12	dnolen	dherman: down with Dart!
19:12	dherman	haha
19:12	dherman	Dart. feh
19:12	McMartin	dnolen: "Hey, nice dart you got there, now, about that JS V8 and what reasonable type inference nets you..."
19:13	McMartin	Why yes, I do consider compiler technologies to be 1930s movie gangsters, don't judge
19:14	dherman	McMartin: SpiderMonkey has better type inference than V8 :)
19:15	brehaut	dherman: don't go using facts when talking about V8! The Holy Node will strick you down
19:15	McMartin	dherman: V8 is the only one I had numbers handy for, though.
19:16	dherman	well, V8 still beats us on many benchmarks, but our TI algorithm is more sophisticated
19:16	McMartin	(Specifically, from http://julialang.org/ and its table that accidentally says "why you should probably use JSV8 instead of Julia")
19:16	dherman	http://rfrn.org/~shu/drafts/ti.pdf
19:16	McMartin	Now I have to see if you cited any of my colleagues >_>
19:17	dnolen	dherman: it's been interesting finding the optimal line between what type of code optimizes on V8, SM, and JSC
19:17	dherman	dnolen: you know way more than I do, I'm sure
19:18	dnolen	dherman: SM and JSC tend to optimize real JS patterns. V8 often seems happier with lower level stuff.
19:18	McMartin	I can readily believe that
19:19	dherman	interesting. how do you determine that patterns are real?
19:19	McMartin	(Also: well, I recognize a few of those names)
19:19	dnolen	dherman: example - iterating over JS object keys with for in is slower than holding the keys in a array yourself and iterating over that.
19:20	dnolen	on V8
19:20	dnolen	not true for SM or JSC, but iterating over array is not slow - so it's a solution that works well for all.
19:20	dherman	huh. like, for (var a = Object.keys(o), i = 0, n = a.length; i < n; i++) { ... } ?
19:21	dnolen	dherman: no for(var k in obj) { ... }
19:21	dherman	right, but what's the faster alternative?
19:21	dnolen	dherman: store the keys in an array ourselves.
19:21	dherman	that's what I did...?
19:22	dnolen	no calls to Object.keys
19:22	dherman	so you start with a for-in loop and cache the keys, and then do multiple for loops over the array?
19:23	dherman	IOW, this only gives you savings if you loop multiple times over the same set of keys
19:23	dherman	it can't possibly be faster for one single loop
19:23	dnolen	dherman: some explanation - JS objects do double duty as real maps and types w/ fields.
19:23	dnolen	dherman: CLJS provides proper map abstraction
19:24	dnolen	dherman: complex keys etc
19:24	dnolen	dherman: but we optimize string key only maps - since we have our own map abstraction, we track keys as their added.
19:24	dnolen	they're
19:24	dherman	aha
19:24	dherman	that's what I missed
19:24	dherman	ok
19:33	brainproxy	re-implementing node-clojurescript in clojurescript, using node-clojurescript .. fun :D
19:56	archaic	Incanter 1.3 and quil 1.4.1 both use processing.org and when combined in the same project clash (quil fails to find static methods in proccessing.core.PConstants), I didn't think this was possible - for seperate libraries to interfere with each other like that (lein2, clojure 1.4.0)
20:04	technomancy	archaic: without special tricks, you can only load one version of a given library at once
20:04	kwertii	Is there some magic trick needed in Korma to do WHERE clauses with timestamps?
20:04	technomancy	so naturally it's easy for one dependency to win and the other one to complain
20:06	nDuff	How can I populate a namespace other than the one I'm in?
20:06	technomancy	change namespaces
20:07	nDuff	technomancy: ...so, for interactive use, that completely makes sense. In the case where I'm writing a function which to populate the user ns before kicking off a nREPL service which will (unconfigurably) default to it, I'm not quite as sure how that'll work.
20:08	technomancy	there are lots of ways to change namespaces
20:08	technomancy	one way is to eval code when inside (binding [ns ...])
20:08	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 (ns foo.bar))
20:08	clojurebot	nil
20:08	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(ns foo.bar))
20:08	clojurebot	(do (clojure.core/in-ns (quote foo.bar)) (clojure.core/with-loading-context (clojure.core/refer (quote clojure.core))))
20:09	nDuff	Ahh.
20:11	eggsby	technomancy: After watching this video, I'm glad I don't need to run my clojure apps and tests with shell scripts... thanks for that
20:12	technomancy	eggsby: haha; yes, it's a nice peek into the dark ages
20:34	mebaran151	I'm trying to figure out how event binding works in jayq and clojurescript: how do I get the element that was clicked in a click handler?
20:39	brehaut	mebaran151: at a guess, the first argument to the event handling function is a dom event object?
20:40	brehaut	mebaran151: or at least, the jquery wrapped event
20:40	brehaut	mebaran151: in which case e.target is the target node
20:40	mebaran151	I've been trying something like that, but I just realized calling a function from the repl is different from clicking it
20:41	brehaut	target is a property, not a function
20:41	brehaut	and yes
20:41	brehaut	$(object).click() will simulate the click
20:41	brehaut	translate that to cljs obviously
20:41	mebaran151	thanks brehaut; I'm still getting the hang of cljs
20:42	brehaut	no problem. i dont know anything about clojurescript though ;)
20:42	mebaran151	I have some familiarity with jQuery, but I thought in the long run, it might be worthwhile to code some of the logic in cljs, especially as I add more remoting to the mix
20:44	brehaut	seems reasonable. and you'll get to avoid some of the quirkiest parts of jquery
20:44	brehaut	(eg, each, map etc)
20:46	mebaran151	just figured out console log; very much my friend
20:48	brehaut	mebaran151: console.dir(console) and have a look at the prototype. theres lots of handy stuff there
20:51	brehaut	mebaran151: probably just 'console' is fine, but i cant never seem to predict when the console will return some other form for the data
20:52	mebaran151	whoopee, got it working
20:52	mebaran151	I'll check out console.dir
20:59	emezeske	dnolen: Have you noticed the clojurescript compiler output sneaking upwards in size again recently?
21:02	muhoo	is there a quick one-liner to transform map keys? i.e. to make {:foo "bar" :baz "quux"} into {:blah "bar" :yah "quuz"} ?
21:03	muhoo	basically :foo -> :blah, and :baz -> :yah
21:03	dakrone	,(doc clojure.set/rename-keys)
21:03	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:03	dakrone	muhoo: well, clojure.set/rename-keys http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.set/rename-keys
21:07	muhoo	perfect, thanks!
21:07	muhoo	clojure.core is like a chinese restaurant menu. so many dishes, all so tasty.
21:08	McMartin	And kind of poorly indexed when you're looking for something specific >_>
21:08	muhoo	and it could take years if you actually want to try them all
21:10	muhoo	McMartin: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet is the best i've found yet
21:11	McMartin	Yeah, but even that cheatsheet I have to Ctrl-F to find what I need
21:12	muhoo	heh, methinks it is time for protocols and deftypes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2821
21:12	muhoo	protocols and defrecords, sorry
21:14	muhoo	i'd like to add a function to emacs clojure.el to hotkey a function and let it show the docs, not in a browser, but in the repl, without having to type (doc foo) all the time
21:14	emezeske	muhoo: That seems totally reasonable as just a map to me
21:15	mebaran151	muhoo: you need the polymorphism?
21:15	muhoo	it'd be nice to have default implementations, yes
21:15	emezeske	Multimethods are pretty nice for that sort of thing
21:15	mebaran151	wouldn't the default just be a function that expects a map with certain keys?
21:16	muhoo	the default would fill in the keys
21:16	muhoo	so i don't get NPE's :-)
21:16	mebaran151	muhoo: you could put together a template map and just merge your custom maps on top of it
21:16	muhoo	((:save-button fsettings) "foo") is unpleasant if :save-button hasn't been defined, but i'm fine with using hiccup.form/save-button as a default
21:17	muhoo	mebaran151: perfect, thanks!
21:35	amalloy	muhoo: C-c C-d C-d
21:35	emezeske	ibdknox: ping
21:37	emezeske	ibdknox: unping :) I thought something was up with jayq, but I was using some crazy accidental local version
21:52	mebaran151	hey emezeske I'm using bootstrap.js from a CDN; how do I get it to compile on Advanced?
21:56	emezeske	mebaran151: You need to write an externs file
21:56	emezeske	mebaran151: Except that you're lucky, and I happen to also be using bootstrap
21:56	emezeske	mebaran151: Paste incoming :)
21:56	mebaran151	emezeske: oh many many thanks :)
21:57	emezeske	mebaran151: So, stick this in something like boostrap-externs.js: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2822
21:57	emezeske	And then set :compiler {:externs ["path/to/bootstrap-externs.js"]}
21:58	mebaran151	do I throw this in a public directory or no?
21:58	emezeske	Nah, it's just used at compile time
21:58	mebaran151	let's try it...
21:58	emezeske	*Note: I have no idea what I'm doing with externs files, I just sort of threw that together until it worked for me
21:58	mebaran151	I may need to add more, but I see the idea
21:59	mebaran151	maybe it would be wise to pull down a local version of bootstrap just for compiling
21:59	mebaran151	that had all the functions which the Closure would then note
21:59	emezeske	You can use the original bootstrap.js as an externs file
21:59	emezeske	But it will produce a ton of warnings
22:00	mebaran151	I still get a lot of warnings that .text doesn't mean .-text, etc
22:00	mebaran151	anyway to suppress those?
22:00	emezeske	Write an externs file ^_^
22:00	mebaran151	haha
22:00	mebaran151	they seem to be coming from jayq
22:00	emezeske	Hmm I don't get any of those any more
22:00	emezeske	Maybe upgrade your compiler version?
22:01	emezeske	That warning was removed from the compiler a while back
22:02	mebaran151	I'm just lein-cljsbuild 0.1.8
22:02	mebaran151	*using
22:02	emezeske	Hmm, that's pretty new. You might try 0.1.10, though
22:03	mebaran151	just pulled
22:03	mebaran151	same warnings
22:04	emezeske	Uh, that's very weird, I wonder if somehow you're inadvertently using an older version
22:05	mebaran151	emezeske: it looks like it's pulling the right jar (saw maven pull it)
22:05	mebaran151	could it be my jayq version
22:05	emezeske	What's the exact text of the warning?
22:06	mebaran151	WARNING: The form of (. this String) is no longer a property access....
22:06	emezeske	So, the string "property access" does not appear in the current version of the compiler (using grep)
22:06	mebaran151	hmmmm
22:06	mebaran151	curious
22:06	emezeske	Very!
22:08	mebaran151	ah, upgrade noir-cljs fixed it
22:08	mebaran151	*upgrading
22:09	emezeske	Sweet.
22:09	mebaran151	one of them must have overridden my running cljs